Manhood Matters Podcast
Conversations around challenges dominating a man's journey through life. These topics are explored by real, everyday friends, with a lot of experience... And we have the occasional expert guest.
Manhood Matters Podcast
How Parenting Continues To Evolve: Then vs Now
The age-old question of how to raise our children echoes through every generation, but the answers seem to shift with each passing decade. In this deeply reflective conversation, we bring together a fascinating mix of perspectives – a 45-year-old military veteran father, a 27-year-old dad navigating early parenthood, and a young mother of twins alongside her own father.
Through their candid exchanges, we explore one of parenting's most fundamental tensions: how do we balance preparing our children for a harsh world while giving them the love and tenderness they need? The military dad puts it starkly: "I see it as I'm preparing him for the world. The world's a rough place... He's got to learn to fight lions, tigers and bears and slay dragons." Meanwhile, his co-parent sees this approach as unnecessarily hard on their son – a disagreement many parents will recognize.
We dive into the evolution of discipline across generations, from the "because I said so" era to today's more communicative approaches. Should children be allowed to question or correct their parents? Does fear have a place in healthy parent-child relationships? And perhaps most provocatively – do we, should we, treat our sons and daughters differently when it comes to independence, protection, and expectations?
The conversation takes a particularly raw turn when discussing co-parenting challenges after separation. One young father's frustration is palpable as he describes trying to parent alongside someone who seems determined to disagree with every decision. The advice shared – about remaining neutral, documenting everything in writing, and refusing to provide the emotional reactions an ex-partner might be seeking – represents hard-won wisdom.
Whether you're a seasoned parent, new to the journey, or contemplating parenthood, this episode offers both practical insights and emotional resonance. Because while parenting styles may evolve, the fundamental challenge remains the same: raising human beings who are both loved and prepared for the world that awaits them.
After the episode, stay tuned for a heartfelt message from Nailah to her girls.
🎂HAPPY BIRTHDAY CLEO & CALI 💕
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Host: StéphaneAlexandre
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Music by Liam Weisner
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I see it as I'm preparing him for the world. I do need to be loving and tender and things like that with him, but at the same time preparing him for the future that he's going into. The world's a rough place. I was in the military for 17 years, so I know preparing my son for those things and at the same time, navigating the family dynamic as far as his mother and things like that goes. She's sheltered from the world because I've sheltered her from it. But my son, I'm not sheltering him from it.
Speaker 1:He's got to go out there. He's got to learn to fight lions, tigers and bears and slay dragons and that process. She doesn't feel like it should be that hard for him, but it is going to be that hard for him.
Speaker 2:But it sounds to me from our conversations even prior to this that you balance it. This particular episode was so much fun and very self-reflective. I, as a parent, have made so many mistakes. In this conversation, I am joined by Jermon Elder, a 45-year-old father of two boys, nick Pierre, a 27-year-old father of a toddler, and my own daughter, nayila, who is 27 and has twin girls of her own. What is your parenting style? What are the nuances between then and today? How were you raised versus how you raise your own kids? Do we treat girls and boys differently? Should we give them choices or guide their every move? Parenting, to me, is about the hardest challenge on earth, because the stakes are so high. Well, that's the discussion we're having today. Welcome to Manhood Matters. Let's get to it. So let's start with the introduction. I am your host, stefan. I'm back and for the first time in the studio, I have three new co-hosts Nick, introduce yourself, brother. Tell us who you are. What's going on with you?
Speaker 4:What's up everybody. My name's Nick Pierre, 27 years old, father of one. Well, you sound like a hundred, though. Yeah, Sounded like this since middle school. You say I sound like Barry White, right?
Speaker 1:You got that, barry.
Speaker 4:White that's how I heard it from him, because all the old heads said I sounded like him.
Speaker 2:He's like I don't know who Barry White is, yeah.
Speaker 4:So I had to look it up like who is that person?
Speaker 2:That's funny. So how old is you, said your father, when you have a boy girl.
Speaker 4:A boy. How old is he? He's three. He about to be four in August. Okay, cool, and we've got.
Speaker 1:My name is Jermon Elder. Everyone just calls me G. I'm a consultant with the insurance industry and I have two kids. I have an older, 23-year-old he has two children and then I have a younger, five-year-old, and I'm trying trying to raise them to be a good boy, you know.
Speaker 2:Dude, that's so insane. The gap yes, when.
Speaker 1:I got divorced, I kind of went on a little rampage. But I'm very happy to have more kids, you know, because I've always wanted more children.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so my situation is kind of like yours, with my oldest being 27 and my youngest being nine, so I get to almost do it again and I'm watching myself, like learning from past experiences. And speaking of my oldest being 27,. She's here with us today, my oldest, my baby girl. What's going on, nai?
Speaker 5:Hi, I'm Naila Alexandre. I am 27. I have two little girls. I am an insurance agent and I'm a part-time nanny.
Speaker 2:Nice, all right, so I guess we'll start with you. G. What do you see that's different between the old way you used to parent and the new way that you parent?
Speaker 1:gone. So now that I'm back home with my youngest son, I kind of feel like I'm learning for the first time to actually parent a younger child, cause I dealt with my son a lot when he got a, got a little older. I want to be. I find myself being harder on my younger son than I was on my older son because I was always gone. So when I would come home, you know I wanted to just play with him and just be around him and things like that. So I probably wasn't, I didn't discipline them as much as I probably should have.
Speaker 2:That's interesting because you know older parents again, like myself, I find that it's the other way around. You know where I was harder on the older ones than I am on the younger ones. There's been times where baby girl will get away with certain things or she'll do certain things, and my style of discipline is more of a let's reason, let's talk through it, whereas what did I used to do back then?
Speaker 5:Whoopins. Now I can't even say that I didn't get too many, but definitely a lot more than she does.
Speaker 1:I say now I'm more quick to the whooping than I, than I was. I was more I did, I did more reasoning with my older son, just because, like I said, I was gone all the time. So, when. I come home. I wasn't as quick to be that way, Right.
Speaker 2:It's difficult, right, you're gone. I mean, dude, you're. First of all, it's not like you weren't around. You were in the military, you were gone 15 years, you were building a career.
Speaker 1:You were taking care of the family, so coming home is very hard for you to just be like guy who shows up and starts to lay down the law or whoopings and things like that. Yeah, and I would talk to him on the phone and I'd speak to him and things like that. He knew exactly who I was. It's not that I was just gone all the time. I'd speak to him almost every day, but I wasn't there when you'd come home from school being able to say I'm gonna tell your dad when you get home. It wasn like that.
Speaker 2:I wasn't, I wasn't going to show up, you know, because I was gone yeah, what do you think discipline looked like back then versus what it looks like today in a more generalized sense it was more physical consequences.
Speaker 1:Um, for me, growing up, it was more physical consequences. As a young man, as a boy, my, my father was quick to to the spanking, to the, to the beaten, to the punishment side of more, so than to the explanation and reason side. And I think I'm probably more into the reason side, but I should be more the way my father was, because in the end I turned out pretty good. So why fix what ain't broken?
Speaker 2:Our fathers raised us we're nearly about the same age, right Approximately. Then the way we raise our children, who are now in their twenties, and the way these guys, these younger, 20, some years old, are raising their children. So what about you guys? Like what do you find that was different from the way you were raised, versus the way you want to raise your own kids? So you just wait. I know it's coming, but let's go. That's what I want to hear.
Speaker 4:I think I'm a little soft with my son, like I don't never beat him or anything like that. I kind of just let him be a kid. I feel bad if.
Speaker 4:I beat him for being a kid and I feel like I, I feel like I raised him with more love than what I got. My dad didn't know how to show that. He was like an old school Haitian. My son know I love him. Like I always tell him I love him and you know what I'm saying. Just I embrace him more than what I'm saying. Just I embrace him more than what I got when I was a kid. How was your dad when he died? He was 55. So, oh, I'm sorry, I didn't know he was there anymore. Yeah, yeah, it's all good, but if he was alive today he would probably be like 70 something.
Speaker 2:So he's much older, because you're my kid's age and he's almost 20 years older than I am. Yeah, I, yeah, I see what you mean. As far as that generation, they were tough man. So what you're doing is do you feel like you might be over-correcting?
Speaker 4:I don't know. I might be a little bit because I feel like I might have to make some changes soon. He think I'm more of a friend and I need to make a boundary you know what I'm saying somewhere to where he know, like this is my dad still so I got to kind of be more, a little stern with them, yeah.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I might have to make some corrections. I think that's what happens a lot of times is that we see certain things based on the way we come up and then how we've acted, and then by the time we take that dial and we overcorrect. So I think there needs to be that balance. Still, what are your thoughts, nai?
Speaker 5:I don't think I was over disciplined. I don't want to make it seem like I was just getting whooped nonstop. I definitely had a lot of conversations. I think I was raised like I'll just speak about you, I'll speak about the other parent because you're here. But I think you were over disciplined physically. So you took that into account when you were raising us and I was the only child for a while. So I don't I can count on one hand how many whoopings you actually passed out.
Speaker 5:They all still hurt my feelings because they were big deals. But with my kids I don't punish them for breaking rules they didn't know were rules. They're allowed to correct me. They're allowed to question me because I said so or just me being their mom. I just take time to like I see them as humans. I don't want them to fear me, I want them to respect me. But it's always like a two-way street. Don't lie to me because mommy trust you, you're supposed to trust mommy. Like it's a two way street. Mommy respects you, you respect mommy. I always get to their level. So I'm very gentle with them in that way.
Speaker 5:But I also am a disciplinarian, like if I, if you understand my boundary and you break it, we have an issue Now. It's not always physical. I would never pick anything up to assault my children. They're small but they do get popped, they do go to that wall. They do get devices taken away. I think I'm the only disciplinarian between the two parents. We just have different parenting styles. So I feel like someone has to make sure they walk that fine line. But they still act like children. I still allow them to make mistakes. They can make messes, they can do all the things. They can break things. I allow them to mess up first and I don't jump on them as long as it's not threatening their safety. They don't usually get in trouble the first few times.
Speaker 2:When you say you allow them to correct. You give me an example of what that looks like, because I think that anyone my age is into that. Going wait what?
Speaker 3:What did you say? Are you crazy? Well, I'll give you an example. Correct you. What do you mean? So my twins Give me bills. No, I know seriously.
Speaker 5:So my twins they received lollipops at school for being happy helpers or whatever. If they help the teacher they get lollipops. Well, when they got in the car they were allowed to have their lollipops. They had two each. They said something in the car that was not Okay. I corrected them. I said mommy, doesn't like that, don't say it again. They thought it was a joke. They said it again, so I said you say it again. I'm taking it to me. Throw them out the window. Mind you, I am a candy mom. I have chocolate jars, I have all kind of candies at the house. So if I throw away a lollipop out the window, my kids are not being bullied. They can get another one when they get home.
Speaker 5:But when we got home I realized that one of my twins was holding a lollipop. She had hit it, I guess, and just didn't give me both. So in a way she was lying right and so when I was taking them out the car she already had it in her mouth so that I couldn't take it away from her. So she did get in trouble. When we got inside she got popped, took the lollipop. Whatever Come to find out, at the end of the day. They've already had their baths. Everybody's good. We're moving on dolls, we're talking and she goes. I don't think it's fair. Well, and then she corrected herself and she said the only thing I did wrong was eat the lollipop. But I gave you my lollipops. That was Cleo's lollipop. This is Callie now talking to me.
Speaker 5:So what Cleo did because Cleo didn't want to give me her lollipop, she, you, mine, so I can take this one and she got in trouble technically for her sister's lollipop. And she was just trying to understand. Like, did I get in trouble because I had a lollipop period or because I took my sister's? Like she just didn't understand. So then I had to bring them back all together and we had to have a conversation. But I feel like before it was you got a whooping because you didn't listen, like that's it, don't question me, whatever.
Speaker 5:And now it's like we had to sit there and really break it down, like you can't get your sister in trouble like that, or like you have to listen when mommy says things. We had to have a, we had a discussion and it took like 15 minutes for everybody to understand what was okay, what was not okay, what boundaries we can break. They had already been. I didn't understand that. I don't think that that was fair. I don't know how I broke that rule what even was the rule that I broke? And I got to their level and we had that conversation, and I think that that's something that wasn't. It's not normalized. Like you know, a kid is a kid. A kid stays in a kid place. You do it because I said so.
Speaker 1:And I just think that that parenting style is so. Believe in women, children and terrorists. Right, I don't negotiate with you. You know what I meant when I said give me those lollipops. In that situation, I would see it as my child's trying to find a loophole. They're trying to deceive, they're trying to get around, they're trying to skirt the requirements that I've put on them. So, women, children and terrorists is what I think.
Speaker 5:I think for us they're four, right? So I think we try to put adult mindsets into children. She gave me her lollipops. I asked her to give me. She gave me both. So in her mind she did what she was asked to do. Now, whatever is following, that is a reward. I guess she really didn't understand. So now the other one that gave her the lollipop is where I was looking at her like why did you do that instead of just giving it to me? So now I'm confused, like who actually should have been in trouble? Both? No, that's the thing. So once we were done with that conversation, they both hit the wall. They both understood the rule. That's what I'm saying. I will discipline, but I allow them to have that conversation. I allow them to question me. I it's not a negotiation, it's still. This is what I want, this, don't mind having that conversation.
Speaker 2:I think it's commendable to have the conversation, and I think G's dead on when he says they're trying to find a loophole Of course I negotiate with terrorists.
Speaker 2:And here's what I'm hearing. Here's what I'm hearing. These kids are brilliant right there, and from the fact that they can approach you, they have the conversation. Of course, you set up, you kind of set it up that way for them to know they can come to mommy. I think that's what's great about everything that you're saying here. I think what's good about it is that they can go to mom or dad and just be like hey, listen, I have a question about this.
Speaker 2:But then you get thrown around and go. You try to be slick. I know exactly what you are doing. No, you don't get off on a loophole. I understand it, but you, you get the rule. In fact, you were actually a little extra smart, which is how you thought you can get away with this. Yeah, but I do agree in that sense with the whole.
Speaker 2:Let's explain it now. I'm not gonna go over it. You know back and forth with you. Once I tell you why I'm doing this. This is what I used to do. That, I think, is different. That I do differently, like before it was because I said so. Right, it was just what it is. Hey, do this why? I can't believe. You just asked me why. If I'm going to answer anything, it's because I said so. I think that also back when guys like your age near 20s right now were growing up, I don't think that your intelligence was. It wasn't appreciated. I don't think we gave you enough grace, enough rope to say, or even enough credit to say, they can't understand this if you explain it to them a certain way.
Speaker 1:At what point could your children question you?
Speaker 2:When they're grown.
Speaker 2:So now as an adult. Can she question you? Can she question me? It depends on what the conversation is. If the conversation is about her life and what she wants to do and I'm giving her advice and she wants to question and go back and forth, there's no question. You're grown, you could do what you want. But when it comes to something that has to do with the family that I created, right, if you're speaking from that context, we'll have a discussion. But at the end of the day the final decision still lies with what I want to do. But she and I have a different relationship in the sense that she's more she's my daughter, she's my oldest, but we do have conversations Like I'll go to her for advice, for counsel. We'll have those conversations because I trust her. I think she's very, very smart, so because of that I'll lean on her in that way. My son, who just turned 20 just last week, still doesn't question me.
Speaker 1:So go down the line. How far back, would you say, to the point where your kids could actually question what you have to say? So you see, your 20 year old can't so 27. It depends, right Like so, for instance he wanted to join the military.
Speaker 2:I was against it. So I actually got a bunch of my buddies from the military. I said, look, I'm going to leave it up to him. I didn't put my foot down and say you're not doing this. I said I actually want you to speak to other people who are in the military and then they'll tell you what they have to say.
Speaker 2:I've had guys who said this is all I know, I love it, and the majority of people that I know is I have a lot of friends who came from military different branches too who were just like nah, I wouldn't do it again and I would not recommend for my kid to do it. But at the end of the day it ended up being his decision. I think it's somewhere in the late teens when they get to start questioning, because again, at that point man, they could almost be they can have children of their own right. So I'm having more discussions. I don't think I've ever been that much of a hard ass sewer. It's like my way or the highway. It comes down to that. But I really haven't had too many challenges.
Speaker 1:They don't question your leadership.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I haven't had those challenges, so I guess it's hard for me to answer that question. I haven't had the tantrums as teenagers. Tantrums as teenagers, tantrums as babies, sure, but I've never had a teenage gentrum like I hate, you go to my room. That shit doesn't exist in my world.
Speaker 4:I don't know what that's like do you feel like your kids should like? Fear you a little bit I don't.
Speaker 2:I don't think that's necessary for me and I don't think it's necessary. My son, for whatever reason, feared me. Yeah, and I don't. I still don't know why. It was all love, but it was tough. But I I also at the time.
Speaker 2:Now I have another son, but at the time I expected him to be, I was raising him to be a man. So I was a bit more stern with him. Right, I expected certain things I mean, if there was, if we were playing sports, and there's certain things he couldn't do. I was sounding more like a coach, I was a bit more harsh, I was pushing. I was being that way because, as a man I'm, you know, I'm raising a man, I'm raising a man.
Speaker 2:But, to answer your question, I prefer, in that order, love and respect. And the reason I don't put respect first because I feel like if there's enough love, the sacrifice that they will make, the way that they will bend their own will to make sure that I don't get disappointed, I think that supersedes everything, because I've heard other people my age, his age say my biggest thing was making my father proud, was making my parents proud and making them happy, and because I love them so much because I admired them so much. I think that takes care of everything else, if that makes sense do you find that you do different things?
Speaker 1:you have a blend of girls and you have boys full yeah, I could see myself being more patient and more understanding and more on the negotiation side with my girls. But my boys, I know that in the end, especially when they're young, when they're young I think I'd be. I was more hard on my son when he was young because I knew as he got older I wouldn't have to be hard on him, because I could just look at him or I could tell him, hey, stop, or whatever. He would know because I was hard on him when he was young, as opposed to waiting until he gets older and then having to be hard on him then. So I think I'm more on that side. I want more of the respect and then the love, because I feel like you can't love me unless you respect me. When you said you would prefer love over fear and respect, that was kind of interesting to me. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because on my side, I would prefer the respect and the fear and then the love. You know why fear? I think fear is a necessary component of respect. You know, if you have to fear losing or having that person not around, like I want my, I want my girl, oh, fear in that way. I want my girl to fear losing me. Ok, fear having me not be in her life. That's different. I want to provide so much value and so much utility.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I want to be so useful that finding another me is exhausting, like the thought of trying to replace me would be unfathomable yeah and that's how it is like I trained everybody in my life my mother, my sister, all my family members. I am extremely helpful in so many different ways. People depend on me.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And that's probably bad on me because it creates like a Superman complex. I got to save everybody, I got to do everything.
Speaker 2:And you're spread thin.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I am in many respects, but I also know that everyone depends on me because I'm dependable.
Speaker 2:I agree with you on that one. I think that's a little bit different. I think we're using fear in the wrong context Well, not wrong, but in separate contexts here. Because, yes, of course I want them to fear losing me because of what I do and what I represent in their lives, but I don't want them to fear me as in they're scared If I come in, like my boy right now, who's 13, right, I come home and I tell him to do something or whatever he's going to do it.
Speaker 2:And that's out of love and respect right I just think that we can flip those any kind of way and still end up being right. If you love me enough, you'll respect me, because you'll care about how I feel, and if you're not showing me any respect, you obviously don't love me. So I think loving me enough is all I really need from you, and the rest is for me to do my job, to step up as a man, so that there's something for you to follow and admire about me I feel like with some kids they just like hard-headed so it might look like they don't respect you, but they just can't get it right at the moment.
Speaker 4:I think like you got to do a lot for your kids to not love you. You know I'm saying it's like that's true. They're gonna see you as a superhero regardless. So it might be a kid that always mess up and it's like dang, you don't respect me. You know I'm saying you must not love me and they respect you, they love you. They just keep messing up at the moment, so it's a cognitive issue, I don't know, but like you know how it is like everybody know a kid that yeah they just can't stop fucking up like it take them a while to get right seasons, you have to be okay with your kids not liking you and
Speaker 2:a lot of parents. That's strong. I like that.
Speaker 1:You got to be okay with your kids not liking you.
Speaker 5:I hear that every day.
Speaker 1:They're still going to love you, but you've got to correct them and have them not like you in that moment, because kids' memories, their memories are fleeting. They'll forget about what you were mad about last week yeah they'll get over it yeah so you started out a little too soft.
Speaker 2:Yeah, how are you gonna show up from this point forward?
Speaker 4:and he's only three yeah, I started doing the little things. I don't know if they're too little, but like the other day we had got some food and like he crying because he don't want to like bring it in the house, and it's light, it's not heavy, I'm sitting like, okay, you don't got too soft, you're talking about, you don't want to do it. You want me to hold everything for you. So I'm like, nah, you hold it, you bring it inside the house. He crying while he doing it, lying, talking about it's too heavy. You know little things like that. I'm not going to do everything for you.
Speaker 1:Like you go do. As a boy, he got to understand certain things like that, instead of looking at his dad like, oh, dad going to bring it, he's going to carry me here, he's going to do this, and that you feel me, like what he said about. I have to be OK with him crying and not liking me at the moment because, do that, go over there and pick that up. Go over there and move that. Go over there and put those clothes over there, because he'll be mom, I want some juice. Hey, go over there, pick up that juice box and put the little straw in it and walk back to the couch. You know you got to do that for those kids cuz, like I said, you won't make them soft, you will make them dependent, and even though my son's five, yours is three, start instilling that into them. Repetition's the key. They'll get to the point where they stop asking for things and start being more self-sufficient and independent.
Speaker 2:So do you think it'd be different if you guys had girls? I?
Speaker 1:do think I'd be different with girls.
Speaker 2:Yes, Tell me about that.
Speaker 1:I think I'd be more into the. Okay, I'll go get it for you.
Speaker 5:I would want to create that song.
Speaker 1:He just melted right, but I also know that's wrong. Yeah, but I know as a young man you have to be different. Boys have to learn to do things. They have to learn to be useful.
Speaker 2:I got girls. Inevitably we end up melting. It's just what it is. Oh, yeah, you were melted for, please, you, you were melted for. You don't even understand. This was my best friend for like six years. I remember a couple times where she's asleep on the couch in the studio, things that you won't even remember and um, yeah, she got to be mad at me a couple of times, you know. So, speaking of allowing you to correct me, there were a couple of times I remember, like there were times when she's mad and I'm over here kind of like breaking a little bit Fine, let's, you know whatever it was. But there were times again where I was really tough and I had to show that, and maybe we can talk about this a little bit too.
Speaker 2:Sometimes you look at the kid. You just kind of made that point a little while ago, nick. You said you know, depending on the kid, you can. Sometimes the kid just don't get it.
Speaker 2:Sometimes the kid shows so much potential that my expectations are sky high. Now I'm like, okay, I see this, I'm going to extrapolate all this out of you. I want this to be who you become right. So I'm going to chisel away all the imperfections because I want you to be this big, wonderful thing or whatever it is, which is a lot of pressure to put on a kid, but that's what I started seeing. So when she started showing potential at a very young age and she was super young and she's two years old, three years old, running circles around the six year olds so when I get bad news from school, I'm over here just losing my mind, losing my shit, because at that point I had to be like this person who was just going to hone in on all the things that I thought that I could do. In retrospect, I did a lot wrong. Obviously, I can see it now, but there were times where I also did not imagine she could do anything wrong, which, by the way, made me blind to a lot of things. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so there were things that you'd get away with just because she can't do anything wrong. You know, it doesn't matter what anybody said and I'll be beefing with her mother. We didn't get along for a long time, you know what I mean. So she calls me about. She's like hey, this is what's going on with Nye. I was committing the cardinal sin of not talking to her and instead I was like I'm done talking to you, Let me call my daughter, which was obviously wrong.
Speaker 4:This might be our topic, but I do got a question about that. Some people tell me that I just started, so it's going to be a long time. How long does this beefing thing take? Because I'm ready for it to be over with.
Speaker 5:I can answer Let me answer Okay, yeah, yeah, Okay so.
Speaker 4:She's just.
Speaker 2:Yeah so You're going to answer from your perspective, or yes? Actually.
Speaker 5:So it's crazy because I don't have many years on you, but when I tell you you guys are the same age, a probably older than me as far as a gauge, but, um, I am a firecracker only with that person. I mean, when all of the negative characteristics that I can have it comes out with him. I use really bad profanity, like he makes me angry, and a lot of the times I realize not anymore. I mean nothing gets a reaction out of me now, but as long as my kids are safe, I don't care. But I realized that I was parenting through pride and it's really really hard to separate the relationship from the parenting. And I had to have a lot of conversations where I will call my dad and be like I am losing it, I'm about to lose it. I'd be in tears. I mean I'm cursing, like I I hate this guy, like what is happening, I think I'm doing all the right things and he just makes my life so difficult.
Speaker 5:Um, I've actually been counseled that like you have to remove your own emotions out of it. You have to make it about the kids. You have to be so non-reactive that it almost makes them feel silly to even do anything to irritate you. You can't take anything personal, anything If it's not anything that you need to retain in one out one. You also need to be able to say I'm sorry, say I didn't consider that, you know, like switch it up. Sometimes, if something is said to you, you're just like, oh, I didn't think about that, my bad. And then oftentimes, because I go to counseling too, now I've said things to him where you're not doing this or you're not doing that. You too, now I've said things to him where you're not doing this or you're not doing that, you're not doing this. Like you don't even deserve this. Like it's not my job to tell him what he deserves. There are things that I've received that I don't deserve. I get grace, he gets grace, we all get grace, but just separating the two things and letting it be about the kid.
Speaker 5:The kid doesn't want to be in a situation where the parents are hostile, and sometimes one parent. It takes them longer to figure it out. Sometimes they just want to be mad at you for the whole 18. And it's not even 18. It goes on forever. You guys are going to be grandparents together, so it doesn't end, I think, for me with my situation is I just see him as family and I just have to. And sometimes it's a step cousin that you only see once a year and you tell him happy birthday on Facebook. That's fine, but he's still family and children that we love the most we created together.
Speaker 5:So it has to be bigger than the argument, the beefing it literally just overnight, it just stopped One day. I was just like I promise you and I had to have that conversation with him. I had to say look, I don't know if you can see the growth, but the growth has happened. I'm sorry if I've ever offended you, you know I'm ready to move on from offending you. I don't mean to offend you. Clearly we're just polar opposites and we loved each other at a time and now you know we're in a different space. But I want us to be a team. At the end of the day, we are a team. Whether we are romantic partners or we're just co-parents, we're a team. So let's just cut the bullshit. Let's stop all this senseless fighting, because if it's not going to matter next year, why does it matter today? Like, let's just, you know, and it's going to be hard. It's going to be hard. We went through years of insane back and forth.
Speaker 4:And then I kid you not, overnight I was like I'm done, so you have to be done well, you see, it's easy to say as the woman, because it's like you hold all the power, because you was able to just stop the beef and I could not be arguing the beef was coming to me oh, so he was coming to you I was.
Speaker 5:I wasn't just like okay, I was not just calling that man, just beefing that was not my thing, but there would be things where he would say something or I would say something. They would pop off immediately, and it would go on forever yeah so in your situation, just stay neutral.
Speaker 4:I tried to. I know bless, bless your heart.
Speaker 5:But it's one of those things where sometimes you need to be a little bit nicer, you know, not just say nothing. Sometimes you need to be like I didn't under. I'm sorry, I didn't perceive it that way and I know that's what I'm saying. It's hard for you because in your head you're like I'm not doing anything wrong no-transcript like oh okay, that's great. You have to literally respond like that. It is insane. Like you're talking to preschool children. See your ex-partner as a child sometimes.
Speaker 4:Oh, I already do. Oh man, yeah, I already do. You know, he's still a little wounded right now.
Speaker 5:He's like got you on that.
Speaker 2:So, nick, let me put it to you this way right, with Nye, she's talking about something that's more fresh and more. It's more raw. Right, the wound is still very much open, and so this is what I mean, even talking to her. She's my daughter, but in talking to her, I learned a lot like that I had never heard. If you're having a conversation, how would you address it? Because you're not going to lose your shit in front of the kid, right? At least you shouldn't, most normal people shouldn't.
Speaker 2:The other thing that I heard that was really, really powerful is we all, especially as men. One thing we'll say is bro, you don't know how many times I've said oh my God, eight more years. She is 10, eight more years. I don't have to fuck with her anymore. That's child support. That's different right? Real life is like you said. We're going to be grandparents together, so that means you're dealing with this person for the rest of your life. You're going to have to interact with this person. You're going to see them at your kid's wedding. You're going to see them at your grandkid's wedding. You're going to be there. You're going to have to some kind of way figure out how to interact, and you are a team in the sense that both your goals is you want that child to win. So here's the secret.
Speaker 2:I used to react to whatever shit she would do. So, for instance, I lived in Tennessee. They live here in Georgia. I will drive down here to come see my kids. I just drove six hours. I tell you I'm going to be here at three o'clock, for example. I, kids. I just drove six hours. I tell you I'm going to be here at three o'clock. For example, I get to your house, you're not around, kids are not around. Just drove six hours. Man, I'm tired, I want to see my kids, I want to take them out, I want to go out with them, hang out with them and I'll call them. Calling, no answer. Finally, about four, 30, an hour and a half later, oh, I'm going to be a couple hours late, so just just wait.
Speaker 2:yeah right, stuff like that would happen whole time we're in the house. Um, we can't go and they're in the house we're so stuff like that would happen, right, all that stopped when I stopped reacting my co-parent literally told me one time and I will never forget it.
Speaker 5:He said a reaction is all that I'm looking for. I don't care if it's a good one or a bad one, it's just. I don't think he remembers telling me that.
Speaker 2:But he's hooked up and said it, but that's really what it is what he said.
Speaker 5:I know that, no matter what, I can get you really happy or really mad quickly and that's all it takes, man, that's insane.
Speaker 2:How about if you don't? Because the power is in the reaction that you give? But why do we?
Speaker 4:have to go through that. Get to the root of the beef, though, like what are y'all beefing about?
Speaker 5:I think that that's what y'all need to talk about too. It's not about the kids. It's never about the kids.
Speaker 4:It's nothing, though, like not so long ago she just started. So I asked her. I said so what did I do this time? Like what's wrong? And she says the fact that, like my father had me, like I'm here. So at that point I was like, okay, I can't, I can't win with you.
Speaker 5:I can't stop live.
Speaker 1:I'm going to tell you this I literally have no idea what to do. I literally just exist and she's pissed. What this young lady saying is very modern and very reasonable. What he's saying is very mature. I'm going to give you the other side of it.
Speaker 1:Do not ever let a woman that does not have your best interest have that much leverage over you. You be ready to burn everything to the ground, like you're saying to yourself you're trying to do what's best for your children and you want to spend time with them, you want to support them and things like that. If she just wants child support and every time you try and interact or take him somewhere or do something for him it's a problem, then you remove yourself from there. If you take your presence, your reaction and everything away from it and she sees how much she's losing, then she'll come to the conclusion that having you around is actually better than not. If someone's hindering you helping them, then you be ready to remove yourself from them and it may be short term painful for your, for your children or you or for you, but you cannot let someone have leverage over you because, just like you said, sometimes people just want a reaction out of you.
Speaker 1:And allowing people to have that type of control over you is bad for your sanity and it's bad for your spirit. So you be ready to remove yourself, burn everything to the ground, let your presence no longer exist in their life. If that's the case, you pay your child support, you pay whatever you're supposed to, and then you remove everything else from it, and then they'll miss you. They'll see how much you brought to the table and I'd be like, hey, come, get this little guy. Can you come do this? And then after that get things on paper. They'll be more reasonable. You'd be ready to, like I said, pull the pin on that grenade and take everyone to die. You know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean speaking to the mic pull the grenade do not let people have that type of leverage over you, so anybody I love what you're saying.
Speaker 2:I love what you're saying. I'm gonna add one thing to that, and that was also the mature response, but it's a true response. I think yours is more real than anything else that we've said here. I mean, I meant what I said, she meant what she said. But what I like about it is the fact that he's peeling the band-aid off and he's telling you look, this is gonna hurt, but it's okay because it can only last a certain time. So here's the one thing that I'll add. He said go ahead and pay your child support. Right, do what you have to do. Keep pursuing your obligations. Your obligations are your obligations. But if there is something in the way of that say, for instance, you're supposed to have your son on the weekends go pick up your son, but don't have a reaction if she something changed and only communicate through text yeah, this way it's written down.
Speaker 5:Don't pick her up so she can say silly stuff to you on the phone it's going to impact your brother.
Speaker 2:You're gonna feel it. I know what I'm saying to you, right, and I know what we're asking you to do is real, real heavy. But I'm telling you, kids are little humans. They're gonna grow up. They're going to see the truth. My dad is always trying to pick me up. He shows up, he calls. She won't let me talk to him, mom won't let me. They'll start to figure that out. I've heard men say well, look, if you keep trying and you keep hitting a wall, stop trying. I disagree with that statement. I think that, as long as you do what you're supposed to do, but to your point G, don't put yourself out there to just keep getting hurt Like it's. This is what I'm supposed to do, but I'm going to keep my sanity. I'm going to keep doing what I'm supposed to do. Anything beyond that, you don't control me. You don't control reactions. You don't get anything out of me.
Speaker 1:Another thing don't be reckless, but you should have more children. And if you have more children, nothing makes a woman want you to see their children more than them seeing you with other children and you, being good to them, go have you another baby you be. You be good to your other children and you know what surprisingly, your other children's mothers will show up wanting you to also be good to their children, he said don't be reckless I'm gonna add one more. I'm not saying you have less, but do you?
Speaker 2:have any? Are you with someone? No, I'm not with anybody. Well, when it happens, naturally because I think g and I disagree on this, because earlier I was saying yeah, no, it's like if I had to do it all over again. I'm having way fewer kids, right, oh man? And it has to do with the fact that I think the world is shit in a way. I think there's too much to be concerned about. Now that I do have children, I'm worried about them all the time. I think there's too much to be concerned about now that I do have children. I'm worried about them all the time. I worry about things happening to them. Hell, on your way here this morning, someone almost ran you off the road.
Speaker 5:They did run me off the road and I called him losing it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So she calls me crying like it doesn't stop Right. So I have this worry for the rest of my life. Sorry about that. I'll be 90 and worry about my 70-year-old kid who's calling me crying because something's going on. So, yes, I would do it a little bit differently, but I would also make sure because I would not want to go through that pain again because it was painful for me to leave my kids. So what you be careful with and I think that's what I mean by don't be reckless is whoever you're going to have a kid with next. That needs to be a forever person. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I will say this as well. For me personally, I think back over my ancestors, the people I came from. I know they survived wars, they survived famine, they survived the transport across the ocean, all that type of stuff. They survived all those things and they still managed to have children, still managed to have family. Now that the world is as good as it's going to be, as bad as we think it is, it's still the best it's ever been. So, to say, I don't want to have any more children, or I don't want to contribute to the world, because it's hard. After what my ancestors went through, I just think that's. I can't do it. You know me personally.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's an interesting perspective.
Speaker 1:I don't think you should necessarily look at it as oh, the world's too tough, it's going bad. I think it's been physically harder. It's probably mentally harder to see the way the world's going at the moment, but it's just different. Yeah.
Speaker 5:Good point, Good point man but, pregnancy, but pregnancy Well we're talking from our perspective. I guess right Jesus.
Speaker 2:On a lighter note, what are some of the strictest rules y'all grew up with? Mine is so silly.
Speaker 5:Y'all are going to think it's so bad.
Speaker 1:Be home on time and don't lie. Yes, do not lie to me. That's the strictest rule.
Speaker 2:That was it.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's not bad. Yeah, I couldn't really do much anyway, so I don't even see it as being strict.
Speaker 1:It's just school church. Yeah, I think church was a bigger part of my life growing up than I have it as part of my children's life.
Speaker 4:But yeah, I was forced to go to church. Yeah, me too.
Speaker 1:On saturday, yeah, saturdays yeah so y'all, seven day of venice yeah, okay, yeah, so I stopped going.
Speaker 2:I mean I yeah, I stopped mean, yeah, I pop in every now and again, but yeah, my rule, I think, growing up was don't lie With my dad.
Speaker 5:It was definitely just don't lie to me. If you tell me the truth, we'll figure it out, but just don't lie to me. And I have the same rule for my kids, the only thing that I allow them to do. Only their other parent knows that this is a thing, but I allow it. I'm trying not to be, but I am still somewhat of a sailor.
Speaker 5:Everyone that they know, all the adults in their life, use profanity and they hear it. They hear it at school, they hear it everywhere, and sometimes you know I'm sure they want to let one out. So I let them, but not in front of me. They have a safe place. If they feel like they need to say their one S word or their one H word, go in that bathroom, close the door and just hearing the little voices be like shit, shit, shit, shit, shit, shit, shit, shit, shit, shit, shit, shit, stupid. But they're in the bathroom with the door closed. So there is a place where you can break the rules, as long as it's in the home. So when you go to school, when you go to church, when you're being watched by a family member, that's not the time to not be a young lady, not be respectful. There's a place where you can break the rules, and it's with me, I guess it's a little-.
Speaker 4:Why can't they do it in front of?
Speaker 5:you. They can if they'd like, but my thing is they don't know that Nah, I ain't cool with that. No, my thing is they don't know, they don't understand time and place just yet. So that's what I'm trying to implement there is a time and a place. Now I still. This is very weird for me. This is probably last year is when I finally started saying like words in front of you. Before I used to be like daddy can I curse? Because I'm in a mood and I would have to ask first and I'm gonna have children and I'm still like I need. There's no way I can tell you this story without the words. I have to say the words and I still wanted to be like that, like you can say what you need to say, but I'm still mom. You don't say it in front of me, like there has to be some type of never understood that rule.
Speaker 5:I feel like because they don't know not to curse at you. They don't know the difference. Yet there's no boundary. They don't understand. So if they're allowed to just say things, they're just going to throw it out and say it to me so for me, not with me.
Speaker 2:Well, it's not just that right. I've always known that you know bad words very, very early on. But I think this is kind of what Merle was talking about earlier when he said something about you know having more respect and fear. I think this is why that comes in right. So again we can kind of go back and say you love me enough that you respected me to make sure you didn't say those words in front of me. I mean, you're a grown woman with kids of your own and still not cursing when you're talking to me that's far and it's my favorite.
Speaker 5:And I still find that's bar and it's my favorite and I still find a way she's like it's my favorite, but I can't say it Right. And still don't.
Speaker 2:And you know there's a question of like same thing. I curse a lot, but there was a point where I don't know if it was maybe a few years ago, where I started saying bad words in front of my mom. Again, it was just a using like what we call bad language. I don't think it's bad, I just think it's colorful. But I think when a kid is five, six, seven years old I don't even know if I how I feel about the whole you can say it. I'm giving you permission to say it. Go say it here. But again, I've made too many mistakes to know what's right or wrong when it comes to that, so I'm not sure. I just feel like, yeah, you don't get to say not to me, or even in front of me at that age. Now, when you start to pay bills again and you're grown and you're in your own environment.
Speaker 5:You're paying bills at your house, At your house, right in your own environment.
Speaker 2:And even then, you know again, look at you, look at Julian, who's 20 years old. We were at the gym, working out together, we were hanging out, developing more of a friendship. Now, because of his age, it's just the way it is my 13 year old son. We were doing some volunteer work at a nursery one time and, you know, I asked him a question. I was like how are you doing over there? And he goes can I curse, yeah, cause I'm dying to hear this. And he goes this is pretty shitty. And I was like that's good, cause he's shoveling shit.
Speaker 1:But again, if I go, you know, go clean the kitchen or something like that. He's like well, this is fucked up, I'm not going to hear that. Yeah, I'm in my 40s and I don't think I've cursed in front of my father or my mother, even though I curse profusely. It's the same thing with smoking, like I smoke cigars, but I feel weird smoking in front of my parents. Really yes, I do.
Speaker 1:Interesting. I feel really strange doing it. I do it at family functions here and there, but I do feel strange. Stefan, let me ask you something. You have boys, right? You have a 20-year-old and you have like a 13-year-old. How close do you expect them to be in terms of like their support of one another, the older one teaching the younger one, things like that? No-transcript relationship to that teacher mentor type relationship.
Speaker 2:That's a great question. Again, I don't do it enough and I need to do a better job of it. I'm recognizing this again. When you asked the question just now, it triggered something for me to go. I'm not doing that job as well as I should be doing it, but he has the biggest heart in the world. So all I need to do is just kind of redirect him and say hey, just look out for your little brother. So I need to do a better job of doing that, because otherwise you won't think of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. Especially as boys, you need, you need that. You need to feed off other men for the, for the cause. You can't experience everything yourself. You got to take in things from other other sources and other locations. You know, we used to have those uncles. You'd have the cousins, you'd have the older brothers, you'd have that. But we're so separated now that you don't have that that anymore. So, yeah, you should definitely have those influences.
Speaker 2:And one thing that I think what parenting too, is that I feel blessed in the way that I have much older kids who can almost be parents to the younger ones. Not in the way that you know. Some people will say well, I have kids and now the kid gets to raise this one or babysit. Not at all in that way, In a way where in 10 years my youngest will be 19 years old. There are ways that my oldest will be able to connect with her as a young woman who's been there, done that that I can't. I think she'll listen more to her sister and she will listen to her mom and to listen to me. So when she's, if she decides to spread her wings, start wilding out, whatever it is, she's got three older sisters that can kind of rein her back in and have those conversations. So in that way I'm lucky in that sense. My 13 year old son he's gonna when he is 20, my oldest son will be 27.
Speaker 2:Maybe there's words of wisdom that could come from them. You know how young kids will look at us, like that's how I was back in your day. You're so old. You know they may not say that, but that's the reason they're not listening, because they're also kind of thinking about how disconnected we are. Too much of a gap in generational wise, you know what I mean. Whereas, oh, this is my older sister. I looked up to her just a few years ago. I still look up to her and I know she's recently lived it, Whereas one my dad has never lived it because, A he's not a woman, B he's 150 years old.
Speaker 1:My father would tell me things that would happen in my life, even though he grew up in the 70s. He he would tell me hey, son, watch out for this. And I and I, just like you said, I would look at him as being old. I would do the same thing with my older son. I would say, hey, look I, this is gonna happen, things are gonna pop up. Watch out for that little girl. I see these little signs of her, you and her interacting together, you know yeah, I would point those things out.
Speaker 1:History repeats itself. Like everything my dad said is the same thing I was saying to my son and my son he's probably going to say to his son.
Speaker 2:So ain't that crazy? Yeah, ain't that crazy, because no matter what you do, there's nothing new under the sun man. And then what's interesting about parenting is, I guess I'll ask you guys what is your biggest frustration with parenting. Ooh-wee, co-parenting, nick, you over here, hurt.
Speaker 4:The extra child Co-parenting.
Speaker 2:I'll let you expound on that a little bit before I ask anybody else. So your biggest issue with parenting is having a co-parent.
Speaker 4:Yeah, Because, like, if it was just me, I could just go ahead and make all the decisions and go this route, do whatever I want to do, but since it's not, I gotta go say something to somebody who's always gonna disagree with me.
Speaker 2:Let me ask you a question. Oh we, she's not here to defend herself. She can't say anything. So the question is this do you feel that she has your son's best interest at heart all the time? I want to say all the time not all the time, so that's not the case. Do you think that your perspective could be skewed a little bit, because you're still very much in?
Speaker 4:the moment, anytime when it's time to make a decision or something, I have an idea. Her goal is to just go against the grain every time. I'd be like hold on, just like stop, let's think about it, but she just don't want to agree with me. You get what I'm saying, so that's how I know it's just me. I feel like I got to be patient.
Speaker 2:Do you have a support system in the sense that someone else could bring her your ideas?
Speaker 4:and she'll listen to them. If they come from someone else, I call her dad. So she wanted other people's opinion to see if she was tripping. So I call her dad every time when I feel like she wrong or just anything like that and my friend feel like I'm lame for that.
Speaker 2:I think it's wonderful that you had that opportunity, bro, are you?
Speaker 4:kidding me. I don't know what's the worst.
Speaker 5:If there was a different work, like handle it without the dad. Yeah, you can't she feel like I'm bringing them into it, which they are into it, but they are involved. They're the grandparents, that's right, yeah.
Speaker 4:So I feel like, why would I be wrong? And the dad?
Speaker 5:can probably have more of a conversation at a different level because they don't have that relationship. So when I call his mom or I'll text I'll be like, hey, this is what's going on. I'm getting frustrated. I need a little bit more structure with this. I'm about to lose my patience here and this is my only goal. So can you help me with this, or do I need to go ahead and go with my idea?
Speaker 2:I think that you're doing the right thing If you have that door open to you and you're able to pick up the phone and go. Hey, this is what I'm dealing with. Here's the situation. Here's why I think this. Can you maybe speak to her? He might be able to tell you well, no, I think you're wrong. Right, Because that's not the way I would approach it. And oh, now you have a different perspective, Now you understand why she was feeling this particular way, or whatever it may be. So I think that, no, I don't think it's wrong at all, brother doing it.
Speaker 5:He knows her vulnerable side. She's meeting you with this huge wall up, not her dad. So he might even be able to say I'm not going to get involved in this. But this is how I would communicate with her if I were you call whoever is in that house. I definitely plan on it you know, I wouldn't stop either.
Speaker 1:Hey man you're coming at things from like a very logical, reasonable point of view, and you're trying to deal with grenade again you're trying to deal with somebody who's coming at it from an emotional point of view, like they're doing it based on how you make them feel yeah, based on what you're asking them to do. You cannot reason with unreasonable people. If you're trying to do something that you consider reasonable and they're not trying to trying to accept it, you beating your head against the wall. Trying to reason with an unreasonable person is just gonna upset you you're right, you gotta be willing to pull the pin on the grenade.
Speaker 2:I love that. So, uh, gee, what is? What is that?
Speaker 1:one thing that you find is the most challenging thing about parenting as far as parenting goes for me, separating my son as far as, like he's, he's a boy I know life as a man is going to be hard and I think that his mother doesn't see that, so she sees it as I'm being overly harsh on him and I see it as I'm preparing him for the world. She's seeing it as he's young and you know he's too hard. Well, what is the age Like? Balancing that I do need to be loving and tender and things like that with him, but at the same time preparing him for the future that he's going into. The world's a rough place. I was in the military for 17 years, so I know the world's a rough place. So, preparing my son for those things and at the same time, navigating the family dynamic as far as his mother and things like that goes, she's sheltered from the world because I've sheltered her from it, that's your job right, but my son.
Speaker 1:I'm not sheltering him from it. He's got to go out there. He's got to learn to fight lions, tigers and bears and slay dragons. You know he's got to learn that.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And that process is not something that she doesn't feel like it should be that hard for him.
Speaker 2:But it sounds to me from our conversations even prior to this, that you balance it all out, because I feel like, from what we talked about before, yes, you're tough on him, you're trying to teach him everything you're saying, you're trying to build an armor around him and show him how to build his own armor and shield.
Speaker 1:I see it as me to him. I see that. But from his mother to seeing us interact, she just sees it as I'm being harsh on him. But I know I'm doing this out of love, I'm doing this out of I'm caring for you, I'm respecting you, I'm preparing you.
Speaker 2:Let me ask your question and let me know if this is personal. But do you tell your son you love him? Yes you kiss your son, tell him you love him, hug him and things like that, then to me this is what I'm saying like there was a time where this was taboo. Our dads didn't do that, my dad didn't.
Speaker 1:I can't remember being hugged by my dad very many times.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean, and I talked to a lot of guys our age who pretty much are like yeah, that's not something we grew up with. Even dudes who had a great relationship with their fathers would still grow up and say we didn't start saying I love you to my dad and vice versa, until I was in my thirties, because I had kids of my own and I had learned to soften up because that's not the way I was raised. But you're doing that as well as being tough and being that model for him to follow. So I think that balance is great, because what's most important is this what is your son seeing? What's that image? Is he going to grow up and go?
Speaker 1:yeah, my dad was just a hard ass, never heard I love you, no, no, that's not the case as far as, like what you're saying, you understand that because you're a man, yeah, but have you ever dealt with having your wife say, hey, you're being too hard on the kids, like, even though you know you're doing it out of love, you know you're preparing them for something?
Speaker 2:I haven't had that because of who I am. I'm not this unreasonable punishing type. Dad, I do think that I need to do what I've never had the criticism of you being too hard on them.
Speaker 1:No. Have you ever seen somebody resist arrest? Sure, okay, when you see somebody resisting arrest, the arrest looks hard. It looks tough Even though it's all procedural, it's all by the book. It looks rough from somebody looking at it from the outside, but that's what it it takes. It's the same way with parenting boys. You know parenting boys it looks rough from the outside, but it's what it takes. There's going to be some resistance. There's going to be some some struggle involved that's a good good analogy.
Speaker 2:I like that. Now, what's the hardest thing about parenting?
Speaker 5:don't say cool parenting no, he's cool, I promise you, we vibe now it's. It's we good, I think, time management just because I work a lot. I work a lot and I was privileged enough to spend a lot more time with them when they were younger. I had them during COVID. I nursed them until they were almost a year. So it's just, it's weird now, because now it's like I can go to the store and they're like are you leaving again? Like, where are you going? Do you have to go to work?
Speaker 5:Work takes so long, like I have to bring them to school forever, and that's what they say. It's just so long, it's forever. And then I nanny on weekends. So it's like I'm just trying to provide for them. I want there to be some type of you know, financial stability. So I work like a dog, I'm up before 6am six days out of the week and just balancing that. I want to provide for them. But I also don't want to have the kids that are like, yeah, like we were cool with all the stuff, but I would have rather have less stuff and you be here.
Speaker 2:You can't get it right. You get them all the stuff. They're going to complain by the time you weren't there. You spend too much time. They're going to complain about that. You were broke bum and they didn't have shit that Timmy had. So there's no for every individual. Every child is different. There's going to be a kid that I know is going to grow up to be like I admire my dad so much because he was never here. He worked so hard. The lights were always on. There's going to be a kid who's going to be like my dad balanced it all out. We can barely pay the bills. We ate rice and beans and that's what we ever had. We never had a piece of chicken, but I'll tell you the love that I got from my dad and they admire it. So I don't think that there's a way to no there's no way, it's just a guilt, and that's.
Speaker 2:That's what parenting is, because that's still that's. That's to me. That's that's the challenge as well. For me, the biggest challenge is the fact that I don't understand why in the hell because, yeah, because I feel like I'm about to have a tantrum right now I don't understand why y'all don't listen. Honestly, we don't either. I don't understand why it takes for you to burn your head on the stove when I told you it was hot.
Speaker 5:We didn't think that stove got that hot.
Speaker 2:It's life, my frustration, even with my son. I tell him I'm like dude, I'm literally you from the future and I'm coming back in time 20, 30 years to tell you certain things that I've already seen. If only you will listen, this is how your life's going to go. You know? Simple example I was trying to get my son to play golf at nine, then 13, then 14 or whatever. Now he wants my clubs. Oh, can I get your clubs to go play? Yeah, nigga. So you understand the advantage now, when I was trying to prepare you a long time ago, but he didn't want to. But now he wants to.
Speaker 2:But I'm like here's what happened. You can never get those 10, 15 years back because that free ride to the HBCU, playing golf there, that would have been a free ride for you if you understood what I was trying to teach you back then. Now here's what G is saying I give him a choice. That's where I went wrong. Tiger's dad didn't give him a choice. Michael Jordan's dad didn't give him a choice. Kobe's dad didn't give him a choice. The people who become the greatest at what they do. When you hear their stories it's damn near abusive, but it's like this is what you're going to do so if you want greatness for your children. Sometimes you have to be that warden in a sense. So I think that's what's challenging.
Speaker 1:Quick story. So I think that's what's challenging quick story. Go for it. My oldest son that has my two grandkids. When he was graduating from college I said hey, I'm gonna buy you a car. Go pick out whatever car you want, right, he was sending me like hondas and toyotas and things like that responsible nice sedans. In the end he ended up with like a camaro. You know he was like dad, I want this camaro. And I know what he was thinking. He was thinking you know, it's flashy, it's nice. He wants a little nice car. Right? I told him your insurance is going to be high, you're going to burn a lot of gas. You're going to potentially get a lot of tickets. There's going to be a lot of consequences to having this car. I'll let you have it, but there's going to be consequences.
Speaker 1:Fast forward, six years later. We got rid of that car two days ago. It was loading onto the truck, being hauled away, towed away. He looked at me and said dad, I should have listened to you back then. I spent a lot of money on insurance, I spent a lot of money on gas, I spent a lot of money having girls chase me around and it caused a lot of problems, and I should have listened to you back then yeah they got to come to that conclusion but you're right my younger son.
Speaker 1:He's not gonna have that choice exactly.
Speaker 2:Tell him to get right, and so lesson is for you more than anybody else like he's got his own lesson, but it's like the years are lost and you get to do it differently that conclusion on his own yeah, you know you're absolutely right.
Speaker 1:I'll give them some, some rope to hang themselves. They might have to just learn it on their own. Some kids just don't listen, they just don't get it. They got to get it on their own.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, in the future, my youngest son, if I want him to be great, if I want him to skip all those bad steps, yeah, I'm probably just going to have to know this is what you're going to get.
Speaker 2:They were very hard on me. So then I was giving my kids choices, and that has to do with the fact that I come from a different culture. You didn't ask why, you didn't question your reason. It's just what it is. This is what you do. My mindset was I'm going to do things a little bit different, within reason. I would give choices. Well, she doesn't want to play guitar anymore, she doesn't want to play piano anymore, she doesn't want to practice? All right, we'll stop. But then years go by and you go damn.
Speaker 1:If you have so many children, do you think it's better to under parent them in terms of giving them choices and options and stuff like that, or do you think it's better to over-parent them? A lot of discipline, a lot of structure, a lot of. You're going to complete this.
Speaker 2:If I had to pick one, I would pick over-parenting, I would pick pushing, I would pick being a coach. I would rather them later on not like me and say I wish you weren't so hard on me, but they're successful. Then I wish you had pushed me a little harder, because I think that's the worst thing as a parent that you can hear from a child later on in life, when things are not going so well, to look at you and go I wish you had pushed me a little harder. Have you had things, instances, where you're good, I think you're great so you know, I did actually push me.
Speaker 5:I think that's why I'm in the field that I'm in. My brother and I both had the opportunity to do sales. My dad is big on. Just try it. You learn different skills. You know, you learn how to communicate, you learn how to get out of tough situations. I was thrown into it and I was terrified and even though I'm great at having conversations with people, it was scary for me and I was thrown into a summer program and then I traveled a little bit and now I have the skill set to where, like, I've never interviewed for a job and not gotten it just because I'm great at interviews, I'm great at having conversations, I'm amazing at customer service and I can sell anything. And now I'm in a position to where I have a career Like this is something that I want to do. You know, eventually the goal is to own an agency and have all of the things, and had I not went ahead and went through with the sales thing, I wouldn't have make the- Not retail either.
Speaker 2:Door to door sales. Knock on people's strangers doors, right, right, the hard shit. So now.
Speaker 5:All the other sales are like please whatever joke like I can, I can talk to anybody, it's not a big deal. I don't have that fear of confrontation. I don't have that fear of overcoming objections like those are all things that you learn in sales and I was pushed. There are times where I was like I'm done, I'm going home, I don't want to do this, it sucks. And he was, he was just like nope, you're not done, you get off at eight, go hit four more doors. I don't care if it's hot. If you want to not be hot, get inside of a house because they have AC. And that was it Like. I just had to figure it out and I was pushed.
Speaker 2:My brother was not and I, you know, I didn't. I didn't get to do that. I had to finish the worst thing. What's the thing that brings you the most joy about parenting?
Speaker 4:The best thing is like the love. I never felt what I get from my son. I do whatever for him and I'm cool with just a hug and a smile and stuff. Like I never thought that I could love anybody more than I love my mom. I'd die for him. You know what I'm saying. I'd do whatever. Yeah, and he looks at me like I'm just perfect and I'm still trying to figure things out. Yeah, and he looks at me like I'm just perfect. I'm still trying to figure things out. All right, g what?
Speaker 2:about you, brother.
Speaker 1:Unconditional love is for women, children and pets.
Speaker 2:Dogs specifically, not even cats.
Speaker 1:Yes, my son's my older son. He's a knucklehead, he does things, he messes up stuff all the time, but I love him. It's the same thing with my younger son. I love him intensely, and just having him around, knowing that when I'm gone there'll be somebody that looks like me continuing on on the earth and you know just, there'll be another Jermon Elder on earth. So knowing that makes me really happy, makes it all worth it. I'll go through the fire, I'll go through the struggles, whatever it takes, to take care of him.
Speaker 2:That's awesome. To me, it's more spiritual. I kind of feel like they chose me, as opposed to the other way around. I knew that I wanted children, but I didn't know how many, who they'd be, what they would look like. So I kind of feel like, on more of a soul level, I was chosen to be a father and so to me, I'm honored in that way and I feel that happiness and blessing every single day. So when I talk about if I could do it again, I wouldn't have kids, you know, because of the state of the world or my concerns, my worries, I also consider the fact that I never had a choice, because they were going to be with me and I'm lucky to have them. And, like you guys said, what you get back from them, the way they look at you, the way they look up to you I don't think there's anything better than that.
Speaker 1:To me, the mark of a great man is access to resources, influence over people and children. You know you're able to have a lot of children, take care of a lot of children, influence children. That says a lot about you. You know a lot of people have small families, but I mean when you, when someone loves you enough that they want to reproduce you that many times like that, that says a lot about you.
Speaker 2:I love it. Thank you, brother. Nye, you can go last and cry.
Speaker 5:Oh, okay, I'm not going to. I'm so tough. I really always wanted to be a mom, so I think them simply existing is just an answered prayer. They've made me a more grateful person. Like it's just every day. I want to be better because they exist.
Speaker 3:So everything All right. That's it. Oh, I did it Woo.
Speaker 2:So, listen, we're about to wrap up. You lost the coin toss, which means that you get to go out and do the outgoing messages. Who are you supposed to be? Dolly.
Speaker 5:Parton Somebody country Dolly's good, let's see if I can turn it on. Is it on? All right, y'all? Thank you for listening to the pod. Please support us by following the show. Leave us a five-star on Apple podcast. Thank you so much for listening. We'll catch you next week when we share conversations surrounding real issues we deal with every day Manhood matters. We're out.
Speaker 2:Let's go. That was great.
Speaker 1:It was a nice little Southern twang. That's what gets my sales going.
Speaker 2:Hey, family, before you leave us, Naila's daughters, Cleo and Kelly, turn five this week and mom has a very special message for them. Naila, you have the floor.
Speaker 5:Hi littles, it's mommy. I wanted to take some time to record something that you can play back and listen to anytime you need to in the future. In just a few days you'll be five years old. I say this all the time, but I want to remind you that I've always wanted to be a mother, and at 19 years old I was told that that probably wouldn't be my reality.
Speaker 5:But God had mercy and blessed me with you two. You two are so special to me. You are my world and I love every single thing about you. I want you to know that you are loved, no matter what, no matter the situation. I want you to know that my love for you isn't based on anything you could ever do for me or give me, and it will never be something that you ever have to earn. It's limitless and it grows every day. Know that you are important and when life gets loud, you'll always have a quiet and safe place with me. You, too, make everyone that is privileged to be a part of your life and village want to grow and be better. You simply existing is a daily answered prayer. You solidified my faith and confirmed that God is indeed good and gives grace that we don't deserve.
Speaker 3:I love you, cleo Sky, and I love you, callie Sky. Thank you for choosing me. I will love you through my very last breath. Happy birthday, littles.
