Manhood Matters Podcast
Conversations around challenges dominating a man's journey through life. These topics are explored by real, everyday friends, with a lot of experience... And we have the occasional expert guest.
Manhood Matters Podcast
Rediscovering Joy: Why Men Need Hobbies
Remember when men had hobbies? Not just squeezing in an occasional round of golf or gaming session, but actually dedicating regular time to activities that brought them joy and connection with other men. This disappeared cultural norm became the catalyst for one of our most reflective conversations yet.
Our panel dives into the complex reasons why modern men struggle to prioritize leisure. From self-imposed productivity guilt to societal expectations and relationship dynamics, we unpack the shame many feel about taking time for themselves. As our host poignantly asks, "Why aren't we doing more of that? Why aren't we doing a little bit of an escape or just something to help us?" The answers reveal how deeply many men have internalized the message that their value lies primarily in their productivity.
This conversation takes a fascinating philosophical turn when discussing whether men should even pursue happiness as a goal. While some argue that contentment and achievement should be the focus for men rather than euphoric happiness, others passionately advocate that men deserve joy and must recognize this right. Through personal stories of material success without fulfillment, we explore how purpose—not possessions—ultimately brings satisfaction. One guest shares his journey from having "a hundred thousand dollars in the bank and feeling nothing" to finding profound fulfillment in community work.
Perhaps most importantly, we highlight the irreplaceable value of male connection through shared activities. Whether fishing, gaming, sports, or simply gathering together, these spaces create opportunities for mentorship, advice-sharing, and authentic relationships that men desperately need but rarely prioritize. As we conclude, the message becomes clear—making time for hobbies isn't selfish; it's essential for maintaining sanity and becoming better men, fathers, and partners.
Join our ongoing exploration of modern masculinity and share your thoughts with us at manhoodmatterspodcast@gmail.com. What hobbies have you abandoned, and which ones bring you back to yourself?
Resources: The Way of Men by Jack Donovan https://a.co/d/6OfSyMl
Email us at manhoodmatterspodcast@gmail.com
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Host: StéphaneAlexandre
IG: @stephanealexandreofficial
Music by Liam Weisner
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Why aren't we doing more of that? Why aren't we doing a little bit of an escape or just something to just kind of help us? Is it the pressure to be productive? Like what is it?
Speaker 2:We're shamed by society for having hobbies, we're shamed by ourselves for having hobbies and we're shamed by the relationships in our lives for having hobbies.
Speaker 1:You think so Because I don't know if I've experienced that you tell yourself.
Speaker 2:You're too busy, you got. You're too busy, you got too much going on. I'm not going to take the time to do what I want to do for me. So you're shaming yourself because you should be doing something else.
Speaker 3:Some of your meetings could be on the golf course, could they Not in this particular?
Speaker 1:case, not yet. Once upon a time in America, a man could earn a decent living wage, take care of home and family and still find time and the financial means for hobbies or distractions, or even ways to reset and rejuvenate. My guests, jamon Elder, ladre, gilbert, nick, pierre and myself are discussing this so-called luxury we can no longer afford. It seems that today we work and go home. That's it. We do our very best in facing our responsibilities, but hardly, if ever, schedule time for ourselves.
Speaker 1:I remember being in a very sad relationship once and a friend told me that love is overrated. Just do what you're supposed to do as a man go home and shut up. So is chasing happiness something we should abandon, or can we make it part of the equation that completes us as men? Do these hobbies or distractions allow us to recalibrate our minds, our hearts? How important are they in our daily lives? Join us for this thought-provoking conversation and, as always, email us your feedback at manhoodmatterspodcast at gmailcom. Welcome to Manhood Matters. Let's get to it. Thank you, gentlemen, for coming back one more time and having this conversation with me. I appreciate you guys being here Glad to be back.
Speaker 1:Yes, sir, yes sir, no doubt man Once again you know, and, of course, newcomer here, young blood.
Speaker 1:Thanks for having me. This is something that, offline, g and I were talking about and I said you know, we talk about men's health a lot. We talk about a lot of things that we need to have, and when he brought up, something that seems really simple and really basic and it's just hobbies Growing up and even watching our parents and their parents men had hobbies, and that seems to be something that's just lost. So what do you guys do? What's your outlet? First of all, how important is it to have those things? Let's start with that Before you talk about what your hobbies are. How important is it to have those things? Let's start with that Before you talk about what your hobbies are. How important is it to even have those in your life?
Speaker 3:I think it's paramount. My outlet used to be before COVID. I used to travel, so it didn't even have to be anywhere in particular, like anywhere special, just changing scenery. So a lot of times, from North Florida I'd come up here just for a weekend just to get out of the space. It, um, it paid like major dividends feeling something different, getting a different vibe, and then going back it just kind of helped re-energize me. So I absolutely. But now what I do, man, listen, I'm a lifelong gamer. I'm not ashamed of it, nobody's gonna make me feel bad about it. I had an Atari. I had a Nintendo, I had a Super Nintendo, I had a PS3. I had an Xbox and now I went back to PS5. No, ps4 and PS5. But yeah, I'm a gamer. That's what I do, you know hunt, fish and stuff like that outside. But my main hobby that I don't have to do anything but just go and sit down and hit that button Sounds like you're keeping yourself pretty busy.
Speaker 1:What about you G?
Speaker 2:Hobbies are very important. I think it's a lost thing on this generation. I think a lot of guys younger than me don't have any hobbies. Me personally, I do a lot of hiking, I run a lot of obstacle races and I also do like combat sports, sports. So I like to go. I go to boxing gyms, I'll go to. I'll go to jujitsu. I used to wrestle. So I'll call up my old high school buddies and a lot of them coach teams, so I'll go in there and roll with some of the young bucks. So you know, just, you still need to do something to compete and kind of keep the blood flowing, things like that. You know, as an older guy, you want to try and keep those things going.
Speaker 1:What about you, Nick? You do anything.
Speaker 4:I guess I hit the gym. I don't know if that's a hobby. No, it's not. Yeah, it's not a hobby. Everything is like I used to. I used to hit the boxing gym years ago and I ran little stuff like the 5Ks and stuff, but lately, no, I haven't been doing anything.
Speaker 1:So why do you find that? Is it time for you as well, or is it just?
Speaker 4:I don't know, I don't want to use time as an excuse, because people make time for things, but I guess I just don't fit it into my life.
Speaker 1:I had this conversation with a few of my buddies not too long ago where I had no drive or no desire. It was time, but also I had no desire. Fact, I hadn't been in the gym for like over a year and a half. I used to kind of work out all the time and I just stopped working. I just stopped like I no drive to do anything. My excuse was a bit different, though. I'm a lot older. Let me throw something out there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, with his generation. What I think it is with them is that a lot of times when a man has hobbies, they're shamed. They'll shame you for having. Lot of times when a man has hobbies, they're shamed. They'll shame you for having hobbies or hanging out with the boys, things like that. So this guy's a gamer right yeah.
Speaker 2:If he says, hey, I play video games all day, people immediately think okay, he's young, he's lazy, he probably just sits around smoking weed and pushing buttons, like that's how they they see it. You know he goes hunting or he goes fishing, things like that. They, they automatically attest like a stigma to it. I think, like the younger generation, when a man has hobbies and he hangs out with other men doing those things, they immediately kind of attach a negative connotation to it.
Speaker 1:Is this one of those things where your generation calls everything lame? I don't think they call things lame, as lame as you go fishing, maybe like gaming, or something might have like a bad look, but I don't think there call things lame.
Speaker 4:That's lame. You go fishing, maybe, like gaming or something might have like a bad look, but I don't think there's anything wrong with gaming. Like I'm pretty sure you like you done got your life set up Like you're comfortable. You could afford to sit and play games. I feel like I can't yet right now you know what I'm saying Like I'll probably feel bad if I sit and play games like that Cause, like shoot, I need to get my life together. So I feel like if I game for an hour or two, it's like damn, I just wasted that. I could have you know what I'm saying did something else. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:There's a stigma and a shame behind it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I love what you're saying in terms of the drive and the ambition and having that self-reflection to say, hey, you know, that's great, but at the out, here is the fact that we need that outlet. We need that hour or two. If it's 30 minutes a day for you, if it's something we get away and we go do once a week, once a month hell, I'm trying to get back to where I can golf once a month. Again, that's my outlet. But I think you should be able to do that and kind of balance it all out.
Speaker 3:It's actually the exact opposite with me. So it's not that I have everything together, it's not that I have a bunch of time. What I do with the game is, as opposed to, like wanting to go out, spend money and do other things, that's something I can do at home and I'm comfortable doing it and it allows me to be able to, you know, like stay grounded, stay focused and not go out and blow a bunch of money and kind of like you know, just just kind of.
Speaker 3:you know, blow off steam without having to go anywhere and do anything, and it's been a real important part of my life.
Speaker 1:Should we, as men, go out of our way to create something that gives us a channel and an outlet? Absolutely so what does that look like for everyone? For me, I'm kind of like you, but I haven't gotten there yet to where. I'd love to just travel a whole lot. I prefer experiences over things.
Speaker 1:But one thing I do enjoy, man, is a nice round of golf, and I used to play a lot when I was in Tennessee. I mean, I was in the league. I played every weekend, probably played twice a week, but here I don't think I've played in forever right. And every time I drive by a course I'm in the car all day long. As you know, for what I do for work, I'm going from appointment to appointment and I'm always driving by a golf course, and every time I drive by one I'm slowing down, I'm looking, I'm all feeling sad. I'm looking at one guy playing a hole. I'm like, ah, he chunked that ball.
Speaker 1:So it's something that I think that I need so much. Or even just getting together with the boys to just like hanging out, going to someone's yard, throwing something on the grill, just chilling, smoking a cigar, whatever. It's just something I think that is so imperative, something that we need in our lives and we just I think that it's not the kind of thing that you can afford not to have for our own sanity. Do you think there's levels to hobbies?
Speaker 2:I'm not sure what you mean by that, but I'm going to say that I mean like there's some healthy masculine hobbies that men should have, right. And then there's other hobbies that are their hobbies, but they're potentially destructive. Sure, yeah, so I like to go hunt or I like to go fish. Those are hobbies, right. Yeah, I want to play around the golf all the time. I want to play video games all the time. Those are potentially destructive. I want to play video games all the time.
Speaker 2:Those are potentially destructive. Why do you say that? I mean, anything in excess is destructive, right? Okay, yeah, and you know immediately, certain things have like a negative connotation to them and some other things may not, you know. So I travel too much. Anything in excess is bad, yeah, so are there levels to hobbies?
Speaker 1:I guess. So I guess it's called a hobby for a reason. Don't let it become an obsession or more of a habit right when it's like it needs to happen or an addiction. As much as I love to be addicted to golf, I'm not I mean, obviously.
Speaker 2:In order to decompress, though, you need to get away right? That's exactly what I'm saying, so it can become an obsession.
Speaker 1:I have balance, even though I do have an obsession, do you?
Speaker 3:Like being real, bro, because I'm sounds like you're, because, bro, I'm just beyond with you, bro, like when I hear you, I hear you tell you work, work, work, work.
Speaker 1:You're right. So I miss folk and you always say you have balance. I'm kind of like wait a minute. I think we kind of need to have. So what, what I meant was in my desire and what I want to do right meaning that I will never let it get out of hand to where? Oh yeah, you know, I go golf so much that I'm not even going to my appointments. I'm not working, I'm spending too much money.
Speaker 3:Unless you become the club pro right.
Speaker 1:And that's not happening right. So you know, and that's just reality. You don't decide at 50. You're going to be a pro and then do it. But in that sense you're right.
Speaker 1:I don't have that balance that I'd like to have, but I do have that balance in terms of, like making the decision for me to say, yeah, I need to golf once a week, and if I don't, I don't. I smoke cigars. I'm like you, I'll go six, seven, eight months without smoking a single cigar, cause A I, to your point, should find time to at least go sit on my deck, pull out a cigar and just breathe, just relax. I don't even get to do that Shit. I bought this golf simulator thing that I can just hit off my deck. It's been in a box for six months. I haven't even taken it out of the box. So I need to be able to do these things. But I don't find time. But to answer your question, I know for me that it would never get to a point where it's destructive or it's taking time away from family or anything like that. But we do need to create time for ourselves, otherwise we implode.
Speaker 2:Should we sacrifice time with our family or doing other things for ourselves, for our hobbies?
Speaker 1:I don't think it's a sacrifice. I think they should be able to make time for it, and I don't know that I'm qualified to give advice. I can only tell what I'm doing. So for me, my responsibilities for my household and my family come first. So the hobbies are being sacrificed. When I get to where I need to get to, I'm headed back to that. I've had it at one point, lost it, but I'm headed back to that. But once I get there again, I know for a fact that first of all, I enjoy spending time with my wife. It's not a sacrifice. We enjoy the same things. We have a good time together. She's gone to the golf course. She doesn't play golf, but she'll go there and wear the hat and be cute and drink. That's perfectly fine with me. I love playing soccer. I want to go back to playing in a league once a week or whatever. It is one evening, because usually those guys play at night again.
Speaker 3:These are things that I can go do, but never at the expense of spending time with my family first, right one of the um things I wanted to ask g, because I think you brought it up and and if I'm getting ahead, you always let me know I'm getting ahead of myself. No worries If I'm getting ahead of myself. So what's the balance between having an outlet and escapism? That's a great question Because for me, when I talked about travel a lot of times like I was using travel, it was a hobby, but it became like let me, let me escape this reality for a while and get out of this environment.
Speaker 3:But you know, like they always say, like you know, people say you drink or you get intoxicated, your problems are going to be there when you get back. So I had to, you know, try to figure out a way to like OK, let me not, you know, spend so much time away that I'm not actually like dealing with the things that I need to. So that's why I just kind of wanted to pose that question to you guys, like even you, g, or Steph, or Nick.
Speaker 2:To me that's an interesting question. But my personal philosophy as a man I don't believe I should be happy. I think men that focus on being happy all the time that's not not what a man's supposed to be, you know, know, you shouldn't be in a continuous state of unhappiness and or fear, but you should relatively be living in like a state of contentment they talk to. That appears, alan bro, you shouldn't be happy. I know, like a happy man is weird.
Speaker 2:It's weird happy man is weird yes, if you're around a man, he's just always focused on being happy. People that focus on being happy. That's how you get into drugs and alcohol and and women and sex and all that type of stuff. You start getting into degenerate stuff, trying to focus on being happy. Okay, no, you should just not be in pain and like a continuous state of of disease.
Speaker 3:You know, gee, I'm concerned. What'sfree, footloose, no responsibility like I'm not holding or ownership? Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 2:I'm not saying that you shouldn't experience some fleeting moments of happiness? Right, right, you should. You should be able to play basketball with your son and and really be happy in that moment. You should enjoy that. But you shouldn't spend your life seeking to just be happy, right? Like women say, I just want to be happy. Men shouldn't say that, you know.
Speaker 3:Really Relating to the Constitution life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.
Speaker 2:And the pursuit of happiness right you should be pursuing happiness, but you shouldn't sit there and be happy all the time.
Speaker 1:Never reach it Wow.
Speaker 2:Conquest, never reaching, happy all the time, never reaching wow. But I'm interested in what continuous? For me, conquest is continuous. You should never get to a point where you're just happy and content and that's just the way it is. That's not how life's supposed to be as a man. Women are supposed to focus on happiness. Children are supposed to have focus on happiness. Men we should focus on being proud of ourselves and achievement and trying to accomplish things you know that's not that's.
Speaker 2:And if you need a, little bit of stepping back to recharge some escapism, like you said. That's okay, but you shouldn't focus on I need to do this to be happy. I don't believe that's how you're supposed to live that's a very, very interesting take on it think about what I'm saying when you hear a man say I just want to be happy I'm gonna do whatever it takes to be happy, don't? You think that's strange?
Speaker 1:Sure Doesn't that sound weird. I've never heard that by the way Okay.
Speaker 2:You've never seen a man say that.
Speaker 1:Nobody I know. Yeah, I mean. I don't think there's a man that I know personally that I'd be in conversation with, that'd be like I just want to be happy. I don't know. For some say what I mean. Right, maybe it's because we don't open up to each other enough that we don't say that, but also it's because I've never heard that as a complete sentence. There's more to it. They'll say here's what I need in order for me to be happy. It's not. I just want to be happy as a concept and it's just wide open.
Speaker 1:So, for instance, I want money to be out of the way. I want to have enough that I don't have to think about it anymore. I want to make sure that I have my health, the people that are closest to me wife and kids they're healthy. I heard Jim Rohn say this once and I love that. He says I want to build a financial armor around my family that is unbreakable. Now, you don't need a million dollars a month to do that. You can do that very comfortably on 20 grand a month. Some people barely crack, you know, 40, 50 a year. You could do really, really well, depending on where you live in the country, right With 20,000, 30,000 and do extremely well where you're not thinking about money, especially if it's passive. You're not having to go work 80 hours a week for it. So I want to be able to do what I want to do with whomever I want, whenever I want.
Speaker 2:Let's. So let's unpack what you just said, right? You said hey, in order to be happy, I need my health. Relatively speaking, for the most part you're in decent health, right. You can function, you can move and everything. You're good, right, so you have your health. Can I correct something? Go?
Speaker 1:ahead and if I said it I want to correct it. I didn't say in order for me to be happy, I need anything external. What I said, if we're going to talk about being happy, at least here in this incarnation not to dive into the spiritual, but I will say I don't need anything outside of me to be happy. But if we're going to talk about the happiness in the sense that we're speaking of it here on this planet, living as human beings, I have certain things that I would chase in order for me to be content, happy and be in a place where I'm satisfied. I'm not going to chase forever, chase forever, satisfied and content. There's okay, there's a conquest.
Speaker 1:So I disagree with you on one thing fundamentally right when you said the joy or the happiness itself is in the pursuit. I get that when I'm trying to achieve something, maybe if I want to be a pro athlete, maybe if I'm trying to be successful in business or anything like that. But in terms of how I live, if I could just pay all my bills off and all I have to pay is taxes on my property, I have passive income coming in. I have my health, my wife has her health, I'm not battling. So the health is important to me because that's the one thing I really can't control. I could control it to a certain degree, but, yeah, I can't.
Speaker 2:But what I'm saying is you're describing happiness and contentment. You're not describing happiness. People that want to be happy, like I said, they get into things trying to feel that all the time right, feeling content and okay, everything's good, nothing's nothing catastrophic is happening. That's different than I. Want to be happy all the time. You know you're constantly chasing a high when you're looking for happiness is that what we're saying, though?
Speaker 1:to have that, those endorphins and yeah, that's not what we're saying.
Speaker 2:I don't think that's what I'm saying I'm saying, oh yeah, okay, you shouldn't be chasing happiness. I mean, it's okay to be content, it's okay to be good with what you have, actually focusing on trying to be happy all the time in a state of euphoric bliss. Yeah, well, no everything's incredible, everything's interesting and exciting and it's yeah, that's a weirdo. That's that's a weirdo. Yes, it'll be like that, but, yes, a weirdo, don't want to be like that.
Speaker 3:But what you just wrote down, brother, what you just said, right, I'm going to piggyback off of that. I think that more men, but especially black men, need to get in the space of. We deserve to be happy man. And it's not like, it's not a chore, it's not an indictment and it a knock on us as men for wanting to be happy, for us to be able to have the basic accoutrements of life a roof over our head, clothes to go on our backs, food on our table, our health, our family doing well. You can put a smile on your face because of that.
Speaker 3:For example, I'm watching you interact with your daughter here, right In this space. Your daughter, who was once your little baby, was sitting across from you and you're podcasting and she's helping you and you know she's a part that has to make you happy. It's euphoric. You get what I'm saying. Or even looking out the window and seeing your wife out there, or maybe some of your relatives out there in the yard doing what she wants to do right, trying to get your two salads Right. Get your two salads. All this for two salads, right.
Speaker 3:So what I'm saying is like bro, like, yes, someone who wants to be like jovial and just I mean just like carefree fancy foot and carefree like all the time right. I think that yes, because I think even in the Godfather I think he's talking to Michael he says that you can never be careless. Men can't be careless. Women and children can be careless, but not men, and I've always taken that. You know we can't let our guards down and let things go undone, but I think, as much as we can, we need to try to find a way to carve out a space in our lives that exudes our happiness.
Speaker 1:Well, it's because of that tension, it's what you just said. It's because of that tension. This is why we need that space. This is why we need to escape every once in a while, because there's always tension, like you just said. I look out the window. I see my wife. Thank God I'm not over there working on the garden right now.
Speaker 1:But that makes me happy. I watch my kids and I'm very joyful in these moments and I can live like this forever. But, to your point, there's always a level of vigilance that we are still kind of watching because we have to Right. It's kind of like that sheepdog who was to watch the flock to make sure nothing's coming to harm any of that.
Speaker 2:And I'm not saying you're not going to have those moments of happiness. You're going to experience happiness over the course of your life. But trying to consistently live in that state that's my point you shouldn't try and live in that state.
Speaker 3:But G, I want to share something with you, man, because I like that you're expounding on your point. I want to share this with you guys man, there was one time I was living in the morning and my hardest decision was what I was going to drive that day right and a couple hundred thousand dollars in the bank, and I was miserable. Like I was miserable. I remember I went to the bank one day and I put a check for a hundred thousand dollars in the bank and I felt nothing. I wouldn't feel happy, I didn't feel sad, I didn't feel a car, I felt nothing.
Speaker 3:And so I think that, like when we talk about escapism, I had a deeper problem that was manifesting itself, it was festering with me that caused me to be in that state and I had to go unpack a lot of things and figure out what was going on, how you get everything in life.
Speaker 3:Like when you said, right, I had, and you and I have a lot of similar values. I see we have a lot of similar values. I had all that and I was miserable, but it took, like to me and my spiritual journey, god taking away all of that living in a room, sometimes living in my car, not having money in my pocket, having to go into hotels to eat continental breakfast and then making another plate to take with me to eat later that day, right To understand how to appreciate when I have certain things, and because I was able to develop that level of appreciation, that's where my happiness came in, because I realized I didn't need, I don't need all of these things to be happy. I just need these basic things, along with, like those things that you said, to truly be happy.
Speaker 1:So I love that you said that and I actually thought about this, because if you had asked me 15, 20 years ago what would make me happy, I didn't know what it was Right, you know. First of all, I am. Next step for me really is that financial armor security. Yeah, it's just getting to where you're creating something that cannot be taken or ripped away from you, right, and you have the security for your family, and I want to be able to spend a lot of time with my family, right, which means I don't be trading time for money anymore. I don't want to be working 80 hours, 90 hours a week, and to not see them to provide that right, right, so I'm working on some other things right now behind the scenes where I can create that security for them and work in 20 hours a week.
Speaker 2:Is that happiness for you, or is that happiness for them?
Speaker 1:So I don't know, I think me and my wife talk enough, that I think we have the same. We talk enough about these things.
Speaker 2:Like I said when we met it's making you happy because you feel like you're providing for your family and they'll be okay about these things. Like I said when we met, it's making you happy because you feel like you're providing for your family and they'll be okay. It's like Christmas For me. You know, you got my kids, I got my kids, my cousins, my grandchildren, stuff like that around handing out presents to everybody. The joy is in the giving for you, I get socks you know, everybody around me is happy.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, and as soon as all the presents are done being wrapped and all that stuff, all the presents are opened and everything I'm ready to go back to work. You know, like I was happy in that moment, but I'm ready to move on from this moment. I don't live in happiness, I don't live in that blissful state. Everybody around me is content, happy, like I don't think you're supposed to be happy, happy all the time.
Speaker 1:I can give an opinion, but I'm not qualified to dissect it any further than that. I can tell you that I believe that there is a point. Once I checked certain boxes checked a few already, I've got a few more to check I can be in that state. I'm not going to say that I'm going to live in that state permanently, but overall, if you look at the overall person, when we say, is someone happy, is someone miserable? Miserable people have happy moments. Right, you have people who are absolutely the worst. They're always miserable, everything's always negative, but yet they have the experience happy moments. But overall that's the miserable bastard. Right there, right. So I want to be the opposite. I want to be a person who experiences sadness, ups and downs, sickness and everything else. Sure, sure, but overall, when you look at my life, I am a happy person who's working on a few extra things, and maybe it's because I'm older to where I know exactly what it takes to get me there.
Speaker 4:So how do you prepare yourself or how can you avoid being miserable once you get to that point of like success or close to it or something like how you had everything and you was miserable. So if you could go back, do you think there was a way to avoid feeling like that while having all that stuff?
Speaker 3:Yes, sir, yes, sir, and thank you for that question, because that is a question that I had to answer within myself. That, I believe, has allowed me to now be happy. And that question was why am I doing what I'm doing? I was 20 years old. I was on my way to class. I remember this plainest day and it was like cold in tallahassee, like. I don't know if y'all been in tallahassee, but tallahassee cold is a different type of cold. Anybody listening to this has been in tallahassee. That tallahassee cold is different. This spring is cold tallahasseallahassee.
Speaker 1:Florida, florida, that's where we got laughing. You're not in Florida, right?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. But listen, man, I'm telling you man.
Speaker 2:It's next to the water, so it gets cold, is that?
Speaker 3:why? But hey, listen, at that point, I had not. I grew up in New York, dude. That's what we're talking about, man, listen, I see what you mean, coming from Florida.
Speaker 1:Right, and then you were in.
Speaker 3:Tallahassee. So I was on my way to class one morning and I was like man, fuck this man, I'm about to go to Waffle House get me some eat. I'm about to go get back in the bed, right. And then everybody like here's the class. And I saw one at that time, like I'm gonna get my degree because this is what I want.
Speaker 3:Um, I got a chance to work with um attorney Benjamin Crump. Man, I saw the first day I worked with him. I saw what his watch was like, I saw what kind of car he was driving, I saw what kind of suit he was wearing. I just saw all these things and I thought like man, that's what I want. Like I saw the way the house he had, I saw the wife, I mean all the things that he had. I was like these are the things that I want. And I went and I pursued those. Like Willie Gary, have you ever seen that movie? The Burial with Jamie Foxx was about Willie Gary, very successful lawyer down South. Um, but I, these are the things that I thought I wanted. So I just chased this stuff. Like I want 757,. Like him, I want the wings of justice. I want, you know, these things, this is what I want. This is happiness for me, and what I wound up realizing is man on my way to these things as a lawyer, chasing ambulances is what. That's just not what makes me happy, right.
Speaker 3:So fast forward to today. After all that's over and now all the dust is cleared and everything. Here I am in this new phase. You know, after the ashes and everything, man, I get up every day and I'm focused on health equity outcomes for African-American males in our community. I can work on that all day, all night, whether I get paid or don't get paid.
Speaker 3:And I'm more fulfilled than when I've gone to court and gotten a jury verdict, because I'd never lost a jury trial murder cases, all that stuff. I feel more fulfilled in doing that. I barbershop talk. I was more fulfilled that day when I walked out of that barbershop talk than I ever felt fulfilled walking out of a courtroom. Wow, and that's real purpose. Like I said, you being 27, you're in that point now where you're about to really start to figure out who and what you are as a man and what makes you really truly happy and what your life pursuits need to be. So have grace with yourself, but always if you're pursuing purpose. When the money comes, it's an added bonus because you love what you do.
Speaker 1:But when you're doing something strictly for money, man, you get the money and then you still feel miserable because the money doesn't fix what's broken inside you and the issues that you already have. Yes, sir you, what's broken inside you and the issues that you already have? Yes, sir, you know one of my favorite movies of all time avengers. They ask thanos, okay, you're gonna do this you're gonna get the stones.
Speaker 2:You're gonna destroy half the universe. And then what he goes? I'm gonna look on on onto a grateful universe or something.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he goes then I can retire in my little cabin, yeah, grow my plants and watch the sunrise on a grateful universe. If you ask me, what's going to make me happy is to sit around a campfire, watch my kids, watch my grandkids. My wife and we're cooking in a very modest home, plenty of land, and be able to just enjoy those moments. Take my guitar, hang around the campfire, maybe learn how to ride a horse, go down the Creek and fish a little.
Speaker 2:Do you think your wife would love that man?
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, Because that man is who she has now. We're just trying to get to these things. That man is who she has now. We're clear on that. I know what the direction is because I know what I want. She and I talked about what we want as the end goal. Are we going to travel? Sure, Am I going to still run a business? Absolutely. I'm not going to sit around and do nothing but that $50 million in a bank account. We're not going to sit around and be useless. That's the way I would look at it.
Speaker 1:Still, purpose my drive and motivation, which is one of the reasons I considered joining the 100 Black Men, is because my true calling is to give and mentor young men. I'm writing a book. I'm going to put that out. To give and mentor a young man. I'm writing a book. I'm going to put that out. My core audience is young men from the age of 11 years old to about 20, 25 years old. Why? Because I want to focus on these gentlemen. I want to help them understand that I want to pull the veil so they can see what's behind the curtain, because there are opportunities I never thought about doing, from entrepreneurship to sales and things of the sort. I want to basically show them this and I want to go to the worst parts of the country, the inner cities, and these kids have there's only one dream for them, and hopefully they make it in sports. Otherwise they're screwed because they're certainly not chasing academics the way they should, and I want to show them some alternatives. So I do have those desires, but I'll enjoy doing that. I'll do it for free.
Speaker 1:This podcast, I've had someone ask me when I was first started doing it. Before I even started, I say, hey, I'm going to do a podcast and one of the main reasons for doing is because I think we come on this platform and we sit down and we happen to be more vulnerable. I think it's therapeutic for a lot of us. I've had people sit here and cry. I've myself had shed some tears. We have these conversations and the question I was asked by a buddy who still doesn't support the show, but basically, hey, how are you going to monetize this? I said if I make money, I make money, If I don't, I don't. He goes. Well, if you don't make money in a year, are you going to keep doing it? My answer was yeah, I enjoy doing this. Dude, I want to do this. I've had people come through and they were like, for the most part, everyone who leaves here. They were like man. I'm grateful that I had this conversation.
Speaker 1:This helped me, help put a new spin on things. I got some things out of my system that so would I still do that without getting a single dime out of it? Absolutely. I'd keep going and do it for free until my soul desire is not to do it anymore and then I'd stop. What I don't want to do is be a slave to working 80 hours a week for somebody else's company and chasing them. I have my own company. I'm working on building now and once it's done, 90% of what I do is going to be passive.
Speaker 2:Back to what he was saying about success. I think what you guys said as far as like finding a purpose behind it A lot of young men don't know how to find a purpose, trying to find what they're supposed to be doing. But I would say, until you find that purpose, you should just chase achievement. People say I want to be successful, but they can't really define success. I would pick things you want to achieve. You want to get your license so you can start driving trucks. You want to make a certain amount of money a year. I would focus on achieving those things and in that you'll find your purpose. You'll find what makes you successful.
Speaker 1:I would have to agree with that. Yep, yeah.
Speaker 2:Those are all like nebulous terms. I want, I want to find my purpose, I want to find success. Like those are like nebulous, all encompassing terms.
Speaker 3:And also the commonality of life. All of us, all of us came from a woman and all of us are going to return to the ground eventually. So everything in between that right is up to us to find, like, where, which way we go. But that commonality of where we start and where we end lets us know that we have a beginning, a finite period of time in which we're going to exist, and we have an ending, and so, when we think about it in those terms, that's how it, when people say success is a journey and not a destination, this is the most, uh, like, just apt that you're going to be as a, as a man, given all that you have, towards being the best version of yourself.
Speaker 3:And in that, take time, do things that 20 year man. What do 20 year olds do now? Do things that 20 year old man. What do 20 year olds do now? Do things that 20 year olds do while you're still in your 20s, because before you know it, you'll be 35 and you'll be like, where did my 20s go? And then you'll be having your 40th birthday party. So, like we talk about hobbies, don't feel ashamed, don't be in a rush, take your time and enjoy as you're going to fulfill your purpose, man.
Speaker 1:But, like you said, like definitely reach for the stars, man, get you some hobbies. So, speaking of get you some hobbies, and since we're circling back to that, why aren't we doing more of that? Why aren't we doing a little bit of an escape or just something to just kind of help us? I call it keeping my sanity, you know, I don't just go fucking blow up on somebody. Is it the pressure to be productive? Like what is it?
Speaker 2:We're shamed by society for having hobbies. We're shamed by ourselves for having hobbies and we're shamed by our the relationships in our lives for having hobbies, you know.
Speaker 1:You think so Because I don't know if I've experienced that. I mean, I know what you're saying, but I guess maybe you tell yourself you're too busy.
Speaker 2:You got too much going on. I'm not going to take the time to do what I want to do for me, right? So you're shaming yourself because you should be doing something else. You could be more productive doing something else. You shame yourself.
Speaker 3:Some of your meetings could be on the golf course, could they no?
Speaker 1:Not in this particular case, not yet. Okay, I got you, but I see what you're saying. I guess it's when I hear the word shame there's a parallel to am I embarrassed about this particular thing? But I know what you're saying now. So I appreciate you clarifying because, you're right, I'm judging myself very harshly.
Speaker 3:You know a goat conversation that we had in the barbershop about Kobe and Michael LeBron and we talked about Kobe and that mama mentality man, about how he just worked, he just worked, he just worked. And I always I go back to this. I remember that story when they were in that the Redeem team, when they were out in Vegas, how LeBron and those guys were coming home from the club at four o'clock in the morning and Kobe was in the lobby with his gym shoes and his bag ready to go to the gym to get to work. And it's like truly achieve what it is that you want, Like you want that it's going to take that level of sacrifice, Right.
Speaker 3:But even if you ask Kobe, even if you ask Michael, I guarantee you, man, as much success as they had. I guarantee they would go back and say, man, there were times that I would have taken a break. Know he had that much time left. Would he have not taken more time with his family and more time with his daughters? Or I think he's a prime example of someone who sacrificed a tremendous deal to be great and then the moving finger decided that he was going to leave earth before any of us thought that he was supposed to, and now that's time he can't get back and we'll ask Colby now if we could Colby was all that worth it? Would he still give the same answer that yes, five rings, and me being a great basketball player and arguably the greatest of all time was that worth all the sacrifice you made when you left this earth?
Speaker 1:I think that'd be a question that I'd love to hear the answer to, if we somehow could you know it's interesting about everything you just said, we talk about just like how much time we have left. Do take time for your family, do take time for yourself, et cetera. And when I think about that cause I have contemplated my own mortality at times more, as of late, only because of how many people that I've, you know, starting to lose yeah, you're starting to lose some people, and you know some of them are younger than I am. So then I'm just like I think about that.
Speaker 1:You know, my only concern, my biggest fear, is not man, I need to take more time for me. It does the opposite. So what it does for me? It tells me to go faster and harder and do more, because I'm not comfortable yet with where my family is. So if I leave them, I haven't done enough. So instead of me saying, oh, I need a break because I don't want to croak, I leave them, I haven't done enough. So instead of me saying, oh, I need a break because I don't want to croak, I'm going, shit, I need to go harder until I get to where I feel that they're okay, then I can take my foot off the gas. But do you see the fallacy in that? Of course I do. That's what I'm saying. That's my biggest fear and I understand how. You know how warped that mentality is, that mindset is.
Speaker 2:Can you?
Speaker 1:you know how warped that mentality is, that mindset is, can you?
Speaker 2:find some productivity in your hobbies. I used to be able to do that. Let's say, we go to a golf course you, me, we, we nick, everybody, we all, we all step off to the golf course. Right, we could be on the golf course hitting balls, having great conversation, talking about business, talking about our families, talking about parenting all these same conversations. But out on the golf course, decompressing, having that good time, and you're getting value out of that, those conversations. You're getting value out of that decompression, that time away.
Speaker 3:You're telling us bring you, I'm going to go play golf with you guys, but you guys got to bring me 20 lead, 20 hot leads, that when I leave this golf course, I can call them all and they'll listen to. You know what it is that I have to say.
Speaker 2:Or I give you some advice on how to expand the podcast, or you give him some advice on how to be a better lawyer. There's value in that camaraderie and interacting and those hobbies together, but we never take the time to do that because, like I said, we shame ourselves and we're shamed by society for coming together having those moments.
Speaker 1:Very good point. Yeah, I could see how that would be beneficial.
Speaker 2:We used to do that, like when we used to go on like we were. We was in a tribe, we would go hunting, we would knock down an antelope or a Buffalo or whatever and we'd sit around a fire at night and we'd talk about parenting, we'd talk about our relationships with our wives and spouses before we dragged the Buffalo back to the plan. Yeah, we would have those moments, we'd have that get together. We don't do that no more.
Speaker 3:For me, being a part of a fraternity, and there are times where I won't go around the bros for months because, like you said, I don't feel like I'm performing up to the level or I don't feel like that my goals and the things that I'm doing. I deserve that time to be able to go hang out with the bros like that. But every time I go around them I feel energized. Every time it's not been one time I've gone around them and I've not been poured back into it. So I feel like we have to take advantage of what we have. Some people do church or some people do the mentoring Like when we go to our mentoring sessions. I'm always made better for going to our mentoring sessions Me and the kids. They do more for me than I do for them.
Speaker 1:I even used to use it as a reward, a metric. So for me, when I was in alarm sales, I would say until I get a certain amount in one day, I don't get to play golf. You know, I used to do things like that and that would push me really, get me going. It worked but it would drive me insane because you know, as you could imagine, you know there's many, many days that I got to six and I didn't get to seven and, by the way, the average is one. It's a way to kind of drive ourselves more and more and more, but I'm not sure that the toll that it takes on us, it's worth it.
Speaker 3:You remember that tall tale that we have that folk hero, john Henry, where he decided that he was going to go up against the steel driving machine. He wanted to prove. You know what I'm talking about? Still, no, so, uh, john Henry, the steel driving John here, the steel driving man. No. So, when they were laying the railroads, they used to the means to go out and drive the spikes, drive the spikes, drive the spikes. And there was this one man, john Henry. He was like 10 times the man right and he just drive a spike with one swoop. It was boom is.
Speaker 4:Is this a real story?
Speaker 3:No, it's a folk story. Okay, so they came up with a steel driving machine and a steel driving machine. They were bragging about it, like how efficient it was and how it could replace everybody on the railroad right. And so John Henry said, well, I guarantee you, you know, you set a time limit, I'll go up against the machine and I'll prove that a man has more heart and can do more than a machine. So he goes up against the machine and they're working on the machine, oiling the machine down, making sure it's whatever, and John Henry's just going, he's just going, he's just going, he's going. And at the end they look and they say, well, the machine lays, I'm just throwing it out there.
Speaker 3:They laid three miles of track. John Henry laid three miles and a quarter of track, but then John Henry's, over there on the side, passed out with a heart attack. He died, he died, he killed himself to prove that he was better than the machine. And like that's a folk story that we're told as kids, Pace yourself. That's what. That's what I got out of it.
Speaker 1:Gotcha, gotcha.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:To kind of wrap it up, it's a three part question what hobbies do you have if you've neglected those hobbies for a little while, and what would you recommend to people?
Speaker 3:So with me. I game now, but I miss hunting and fishing man. And when I say hunting, I'm not talking about like safari God, I'm talking about man just going through the woods. You're shooting a deer no with a 410 and shoot some squirrels out of trees Like that's. To me, that's enough, I don't need to go any deeper than that. And also fishing man. Fishing has been such a huge part of my family and our history and our culture, who we are. I want to actually pass that down to my son, but me, being up here in Atlanta, I don't get a chance to really do that. When I go back home I'm in and out. So at some point I want to be able to get my boat back and be able to take my son out there and my daughter and show them how to fish and show them all the things that my parents taught me.
Speaker 3:So that's something I really want to get back to make a nice week out of it, yeah, week, yeah, yeah, yeah, man, you know vacation yeah, it's like that type.
Speaker 1:I want to get with you one day and learn how to fish. That's cool. Never fished. Let me know when you're ready.
Speaker 3:I know I know you're laughing right now. Hey, I ain't going to bait your hook and I ain't going to take your fish off, but I would definitely.
Speaker 1:Well, I just need to know what I'm doing, just so you know what?
Speaker 4:do I I got you, so it's not something I've. I said I want to learn too. I heard it was real like therapeutic and stuff, but I've never been Crazy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he's like no one showed you this. I'm like, no, I've never gone fishing. Keep in mind where I grew up again New York City. It's not something we did. Now, obviously, if you wanted to make time for it, you could there's plenty of water out there but never done it. So yeah, yeah, I definitely recommend fishing. All right, what about you? G?
Speaker 2:I still go out obstacle racing and that's an opportunity to get together with a bunch of other guys. You can compete against them, it against you, you have a good laugh and talk about it. My main thing as far as hobbies go is you should do hobbies that help you to interact and be social with people and also give you the opportunity to run ideas by other men Like. I think you should have male hobbies. You know, I don't think there should be a lot of women around.
Speaker 2:As far as the hobbies go, it shouldn't be something that necessarily that your family participates in. It should just be something that you can do with you and your boys and you can step back and get that advice, that recharge, that information that you want from other men, from what they're going through. You can talk about it, stuff like that. I think hobbies is more of a communal social thing for men. What my point is and I don't even think it necessarily needs to be anything extravagant, it doesn't have to be anything crazy, something expensive or anything like that. It's just an opportunity to get together, just sitting around on the deck, fishing, have you ever read the book the Way of Men?
Speaker 2:I have not.
Speaker 4:I feel like you would like it Real quick. What's it about Basically? It talks about manhood, like our ancestry, like things that are just in our DNA. It kind of talks about it's okay being a man Now. It's okay being a man now this generation, or just how it's been. They kind of make masculinity toxic in a way. Men are afraid to be real men. Yeah, and it's all right to be a man, like it's in your dna.
Speaker 2:Yeah, back then that's what you are. Yeah, is it the way of the superior man?
Speaker 4:or is it? No, no, I know that book, but it's called the way of men.
Speaker 2:Yeah, way of men, I've never heard that okay what about yourself, man?
Speaker 1:what hobbies do you have or did you have? What do you want to go back to and what would you recommend? I want to go back to um basketball.
Speaker 4:Basketball is something I always used to play and I always talk about it like man. One weekend I need to go out there and do it, but I just don't do it and I'm in pain when I do it afterwards now. But yeah, that and like probably finding a boxing gym and just getting back into that.
Speaker 1:And you're a little young to be in pain after you work out.
Speaker 4:I don't know, it's like my body, not the same.
Speaker 2:I always think that Listen at it, listen at it now, if you don't lose it you lose it. You lose it.
Speaker 4:Yeah, the problem is you're not games outside in the sun and then now, after one, two games, I'm like dang these. The same knees ankles I had, yeah, sir health is wealth too.
Speaker 2:You know you got to keep yourself up, especially when you're young. Start maintaining your body. Yeah, so by the time you're old man like us, you know you'd be good, please, bro, please.
Speaker 1:It's crazy because, like I said earlier, I said like I haven't been in the gym in a long time. I just started going back three weeks ago. One of the biggest drivers for me me going with my son. I take so much joy in like taking him to the gym. So now he's lifting weights, he's working out and it's really, really cool and I can't wait to see him start to transform. So it's going to be pretty exciting to see that. But the most important thing we got out of this conversation, I think is think, is just to make sure that we do understand that we are also a priority. I heard someone say it best. They said you know, at the end of the day, when you come to this planet, you have one human that you're supposed to treat better than any other human and it's the body you occupy. And as men we don't do that all right. So cool earlier today who lost? You didn't flip before, oh shit, let's flip I'll go.
Speaker 1:I won't do it. I love that. Okay, so we're gonna pretend that we flipped the coin. We didn't flip a coin, but let's say, you lost that coin.
Speaker 3:Toss my brother so, dre, who you gonna be? I am going to be president barack obama all right let me know when you're ready. Shit, let's go for it, man. My fellow Americans, please support us by following the show. Leave us a five-star review on Apple Podcasts. Thank you so much for listening. We'll catch you next week, where we share conversations surrounding real issues that we, as black men, deal with every day. Manhood Matters Obama out, obama out, let's go. We'll see you next time.
