Manhood Matters Podcast
Conversations around challenges dominating a man's journey through life. These topics are explored by real, everyday friends, with a lot of experience... And we have the occasional expert guest.
Manhood Matters Podcast
The First Black Republic: Haiti's Untold Story and Legacy
We explore the complex relationship between Haiti and other Black communities while confronting how colonial narratives have created artificial divisions within the African diaspora.
• Examining the stigma Haitian-Americans faced growing up in the United States
• Understanding how media has consistently portrayed Haiti negatively to undermine its revolutionary legacy
• Uncovering Haiti's significance as the first free Black republic and how it threatened global white supremacy
• Learning about foreign interference in Haiti, including the American occupation from 1915-1934
• Discussing how classism within Black communities perpetuates division and mirrors colonial hierarchies
• Exploring how Haitians and other immigrants often arrive with prejudices against African-Americans
• Recognizing that Black unity requires understanding our shared history and identity beyond national borders
• Emphasizing that education about our interconnected past is essential to building solidarity
Please support us by following the show. Leave us a 5-star review on Apple Podcast. Thank you so much for listening. We'll catch you next week when we share conversations surrounding real issues we deal with every day. Manhood Matters we out.
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Host: StéphaneAlexandre
IG: @stephanealexandreofficial
Music by Liam Weisner
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So selling us the story of we are always against ourselves. No, we were taught to be against ourselves, right, we were taught to see the next black person as an enemy, and so I think you know again, like we have to learn the history, we have to understand it. So we don't allow the story that has been taught to us to dictate how we see ourselves and how we treat one another.
Speaker 2:So it starts with a larger global love and appreciation for black people as a whole, understanding that we are. Do you know someone from Haiti? A friend, a coworker, maybe? Now did the American media get it right. When you go out to lunch with your friend, do they hang out in a parking lot and eat trees? Or maybe try to catch someone's pet? Or do you worry about this voodoo spell they might cast on you?
Speaker 2:Now have you given any thought to why the colonizers paint the first free black nation on earth as savages? Not even a little bit. There is obviously a clear divide between Haiti and a lot of other predominantly black nations, but there shouldn't be. This conversation aims to explain why. It's the history lesson you didn't even know you needed, but here it is. As black people all over the globe, there is so much more that unites us. I am joined for the first time on the pod by Zole Murphy, first generation American. Stanley Jean and both myself, your host Stefan and this last guest, mr Mark Monplaisir, were born in Haiti and had to learn to navigate through the bullying, the shame, the stigma that came with growing up Haitian in the States. You will learn so much from this episode. Welcome to Manhood Matters. Let's get to it. Why don't we just go around introducing ourselves real quick?
Speaker 3:I'm Stanley. Of course I'm a married guy, I'm a father, I have two girls. I'm back in school trying to go into the route of going into medicine right now, so pray for me, it's a journey, but in the next year or so I should. Right now, so pray for me, it's a journey, but, um, in the next year or so I should be all good that's what's up.
Speaker 1:Uh well, my name is mark mplezier. I am an author, organizational psychologist, also getting my phd. Yes, sir, right now also training specialist health and wellness coach you do it all. Public speaker uh you can tell he's comfortable with it right right um, yeah, so really happy to be here, man, and then being in atlanta from new york hanging out with these guys so yeah. So I'm excited, man, I'm excited, I'm excited for this conversation.
Speaker 5:My man, my name is old murphy and I am a retired atlanta police sergeant, nice, so recently retired. I've been out of it for probably about two years, coming up on two years, and I found myself now in the film industry just by accident, or luck or yeah, I'm not sure which was it was meant to be it was meant to be Synchronicity.
Speaker 6:Yes.
Speaker 5:And so everything fell into place. My wife and I are both into it now and learning just at light speed, it seems like, so I'm grateful for the privilege of being here with you, brothers.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 5:That's awesome man.
Speaker 2:The reason we wanted to have this conversation is because I've lived through it and I continue to see it to where there's a lot of prejudice against Haitians. Now I'm most expected when I see it from whether it be Americans or white people specifically, but when I see it from fellow Islanders, when I see it from other black people, then it's just like what are we doing? What's going on here? And I remember very specifically like my first brush with it. You know, I get to school. I know three words in English. This girl, she looks at me, she goes what are you? So I was like, like I didn't know how to say what do you mean? So I just kept on shrugging my shoulder right?
Speaker 2:like that's universal yeah I was like she should understand that, but I knew what she was saying and she goes are you black, am I black, right? So there was another guy who understood, he's haitian, but he was brought up here and trying to translate I was like, no, no, I understand what she's saying, right, but I don't understand the question what do you mean? I'm black, yeah, and then she goes. So she goes to him like is he black or is he haitian? So then I said I'm haitian, also black, right.
Speaker 2:But I understand, obviously, as I matured, I get where she totally could not connect the dots, right, and in her mind, being black is a nationality, where in reality it's obviously not, but in their mind it's like no, no, no, black is a title that we have as African-Americans. You're something else, but you're not black, which obviously makes zero sense, right? We're all from African descent. I like that term that you use. You use the frame African descent. Yeah, I didn't want to use black or white, yeah, black or African American, but it's all African descent. I once read something it said the only difference between a Jamaican, haitian, all these different black countries is a boat, where the boat drops you off when the boat drops you off right.
Speaker 3:My brother could have been on that boat, and he got dropped off in Jamaica and I dropped off in Haiti, correct?
Speaker 2:Right, it's the same. Growing up, there was so much stigma which the media propagated against Haitians to where I grew up with a lot of prejudice, even at the hand of what should be my brothers. So I dealt with it in high school a lot. Unfortunately for me, my accent was too thick to hide the fact that I was Haitian, because there were a lot of guys in my school that would pretend they were not Haitian. Mark with a K, mark with a C is Hait Haitian.
Speaker 6:Mark with a K, mark with a C is Haitian.
Speaker 4:Mark with a K is American. He got away with it. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:I kind of got away with it with the name, because they they would pronounce it Alexander instead of Alexandre and they would say Stephen instead of Stefan. So I was like, oh man, that's not American as hell you know, steven alexander
Speaker 2:so careful I was going ignorant man, the first year that I was here, I went by steven alexander for a whole year. Then the next year another teacher mispronounced my name and called me stefan. I was like, oh, that's great, even better, that's closer, right. But now I'm stefan alexander, still mispronounced totally, and I went by that all the way through high school, in fact all four years. It wasn't until after high school that I started finding myself and whatnot. So we'll talk about each of our experiences individually and just how tough they were, how bad they were and what today looks like. But when did you?
Speaker 1:come here, Mark. So I was 17 when I came in 1999. That's crazy.
Speaker 2:Bro, you have no accent, I mean I can hear it, it but if I'm really paying attention, there'll be a word here in this country like people tell me I don't sound haitian until I start speaking fast enough, they're like gotcha.
Speaker 5:I can hear it with each of you. Yours is a bit difficult.
Speaker 2:He's born here, that's what people say, but I could hear it I know it might be a way you speak, a certain way you certain words, but there's no words that you use.
Speaker 3:That's gonna give you up maybe not, but for me again, I was born here, right, right I was only haitian at home.
Speaker 1:He was one of the lucky ones but the last thing was gene you can't run away. You were haitian.
Speaker 3:Haitian, yeah, it was cool staff is a little older than me, so he experienced discrimination.
Speaker 3:If I want, to call it if I want to call it that, but for me it was just like urban kid, they knew, but it wasn't a big deal because my building was like the un. There was the jamaicans, dominicans, puerto ric, you know, haitians, whatever. So it was cool, but going to school like we all did the same things. But then again I still knew I didn't want to bring a Haitian flag to school. That wasn't going to work out Because again, you want to fit in, like I was telling Steph, saying you're Haitian is a ticket right out of that group. So it was like yo, that's what it was.
Speaker 1:But when I it right out of that group so it was like yo, that's what it was.
Speaker 2:But when I got to high school, it was like 1993, 94 fujis came out.
Speaker 4:I was cool by the time.
Speaker 2:Thank you, white man, right, thank you. That is one thing we can say when he came out, he was so proud of being haitian and he was cool because he had the music and everything else and everyone started admitting they were admitting all the dudes that I knew in high school they were were like oh, I'm Haitian too. Oh, I'd run into them. I'm like nigga, you try to jump me with the.
Speaker 4:Jamaicans.
Speaker 1:You know you try to jump me Like when they came after me, you were in that group pretending you didn't speak a word of Creole.
Speaker 2:I got a story for you, yeah, and and then here we are, four years later he sees me because then I got into music, right, so I'm playing, I'm in a band, I'm in music, and he comes to the party and he's like, comes up to me, hey, we were in high school together. I'm like, yeah, I remember you. What are you doing here? He's like I'm Haitian, oh really.
Speaker 1:Oh, you're Hait go. Oh man, His mom showed up speaking Creole Blew him up.
Speaker 4:Yeah, asking for him.
Speaker 1:They were like wait, you Haitian? He was like uh, my parents are.
Speaker 2:My parents are. That's the answer. And I'm like, and I'm Haitian and I was like it's. So is that bad to be Haitian, bro? Like I didn't even know I was black until I came to america. True, I thought I was just haitian. Yeah, so I started out by talking about the distinction. Right, but talk about that and explain it to people, because I didn't grow up with that complex of white. People are superior, so I could give a shit about you being white.
Speaker 1:I don't give a damn. When I came here right the first time I experienced any like racism, my dad and I we got on a bus. We're going downtown Boston and then this white lady was sitting. There was a sit empty seat next to her and I went and sat down. She looked at me in disgust and got up. So I looked at my dad. I'm like what happened?
Speaker 1:and my dad was like don't worry about it, that's that's just racism right, that's just how they are, and that was my first time like, wow, okay, well, I'm different. I don't know how far back you want to take it to history, right? Yeah, if we look at, you know, when the you know desalines, they, they fought the fringe. Yeah, and we became independent in 1804, and after that there was a division between light-skinned folks in the south and dark-skinned folk in the north, and so you, you had, you know, alexandre Pétion, alexandre.
Speaker 7:Pétion, and then Henri Christophe. Henri Christophe right.
Speaker 1:So Alexandre Pétion was in charge of the light-skinned folks, right?
Speaker 2:In the South. Right the mulattos, yeah, the mulattos, exactly.
Speaker 1:And then you had this is. Henri Christophe, this is Christ dead at that point. Right and so so you had him being in charge of the black little dark-skinned folks. Right and so the division was the mulattoes had all the power, and so post. You know, america used to control haiti 1915.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, real quick when it comes to that. So what happened? This was a forced invasion.
Speaker 2:Let's be clear on that right, so the marines invaded, yeah, we invite this mother so they basically invaded haiti and said it's almost like there was a slap in the face Like how dare you be, this little free Negro country who beat the French? So now that we are all messed up, we don't have the power anymore, or whatever it was they sent the Marines down there and invaded. Haiti. It was a cool? Yep, it was, and it took over the country for some 25 years yeah, um, it wasn't that long, okay.
Speaker 1:Uh, so I think so like 1915 to 1934. How long is that? Almost 20 years 15 yeah okay, yeah, so.
Speaker 1:so after that, haiti just was in just disarray, right, yeah, so it wasn't necessarily about color. It was more like okay, well, if you are in charge of all the resources, if we're being treated as if we're peasants, then we have to fight for more, so so that's a story. Is that the dark-skinned folks were hateful towards the light-skinned folks? Not quite what it was. It was more like well, you treat me as if I'm not haitian, right, because I I don't French, because I don't have all the resources, I don't have money, because it's almost like they see light-skinned folks as superior. You have money, you have.
Speaker 4:Oh they have the means.
Speaker 1:You have beauty right.
Speaker 2:The standard of beauty you know light-skinned, soft hair Like America. Right.
Speaker 1:Exactly. I mean it's all based on European standards. Correct, and so that created a fight where, if we go forward when Papa Doc was what, 1957 to 1971,? Right, I know my history, baby you guys.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right, that history lets us know the original Papa Doc.
Speaker 1:So Papa Doc was like the common Haitian he won the vote based on the fact that he was for everybody right, correct, the people's president, for everybody.
Speaker 2:Right, correct the people's president, exactly right.
Speaker 1:Educated to, and then America was against it because he created the army. They couldn't just go in whenever they wanted. So when he died, his son took over, baby Doc was 19.
Speaker 3:Disaster.
Speaker 1:Right Again in the 80s, the dark-skinned folks revolted again. They're like well, I'm still being treated as if I'm nothing.
Speaker 2:I think it was like 1984., 1986., 86. Okay. And I know that exact date because that's when I had to leave the country, there was chaos, so in. February of 86, baby Doc was exiled, yep, and a week later I was on a plane. Got it. Wow, right, so yeah.
Speaker 3:So Right, so yeah, so the dark skinned folks, you were among those who had status Same with your chest.
Speaker 2:Life was good. It really wasn't Okay.
Speaker 1:But if it even seemed like you had the means right, you were in control. Then they were against you. But again, it wasn't because of color, it was, more, like you, of representation.
Speaker 2:That government that had fallen here, exactly Right.
Speaker 1:And so a lot. So that created this division in Haiti and after that again we went back to disarray. The country was just in chaos.
Speaker 2:I think there's a big piece that really matters here as well, mark, it's the fact that, at every step of the way, there's always been foreign interference.
Speaker 2:Yes, the major powers have always infiltrated the government and placed their puppets in place, because if the country is killing itself from within, it's easy to dominate from without. Haiti's demise comes from two things. Number one it comes from the fact that Haitians are the first black republic we dared to become free. You have to understand that is an assault and a slap in the face of white people. We are right here in, basically in America's turf. So you look at this big, great, giant nation and then there's a little black Republic that dared to defy.
Speaker 1:We get punished by everybody.
Speaker 2:Yeah, while they still have slavery, they still had slavery for another 60 years. In this country, we're a free black Republic. We're telling black Americans if you can escape and come over here, pull up, we got you. We're here, and not only did we do that 10 years after, I want to say 1815, cause 1804, haiti gets their independence. 1815, pétion. He's named the father of Pan-Americanism. If you guys know anything about South America and their history and their independence, none of them were free. So then there's a guy, simon Bolivar. So he's the main guy who freed all of the Americas. He's lost his battle, so he gets on his ships with him and a few soldiers and they escape, running for their lives. They left South America. He ends up in Haiti, not looking for a way to go back, looking for asylum, pidz, you know, at the time he's like nah man, we just fought the French, we just beat them. So how about I give you ships, weapons, everything that you need and go back out there?
Speaker 4:Go back out there and fight.
Speaker 2:So he replenished him, gave him strategies and everything else, and he went back out there freed his people. He goes under one condition you can't just free your country, you have to go and free every other country in South America, Because all we wanted to do was fight against the colonizers. There's a bust and a statue of him both in Colombia and Ecuador. That's pretty dope.
Speaker 3:That's that red and blue fabric right Correct, on all those flags, that's right.
Speaker 2:That's right. That's right. I say all that to say colonizers are vexed and they imposed embargoes on haiti. We could not trade. So then what good are your resources now? This is not the one you remember. This is one from before. This is we're talking like 1800s. Yeah, you could have all the coffee and all the shit in the world but we're not buying it. We can't trade, we can't trade so you're stuck, and then the country started to cannibalize itself, right.
Speaker 1:And we also had to pay friends a lot of money for not being slaves.
Speaker 2:So we're dying from within, right. And then friends comes back and says, now that we kind of regrouped, we're going to come back and reinvade your country and attack, basically go to war with you. Yeah, and attack, basically go to war with you, unless you pay us some billions of dollars because you took away our resources and our property. Which is you, a bunch of slaves? You're our property and you have to pay for your own freedom. So we paid, it Sounds about right.
Speaker 1:So we paid this debt of billions which Back then we're talking about so it's like $500 million, which equates to like $21 billion today.
Speaker 2:So they owe us that money. As far as I'm concerned, they owe us every last dime of that money that we have to pay back to Haiti. Today, agreed People ask questions about Haitians. Why is there so much trouble in your country? Based on everything I just said, so there's that. And then, anytime someone steps up who would do something positive, they get killed, they get drowned In. And then, anytime someone steps up, who would do something positive.
Speaker 3:they get killed. They get drowned In some way somehow, that's true.
Speaker 2:They get killed, and they get killed by foreign governments who come in and do what they got to do, because you shouldn't be what you are Right.
Speaker 1:I don't think we'll ever have true stabilization in Haiti. I don't think that's ever going to happen.
Speaker 2:I don't know. I'm more hopeful. Yeah, I am too, but the reality is man.
Speaker 2:It seems bleak from here I think it's going to come from outside of the country. Well, I don't mean from, like, foreigners. I think it's going to come from people who are Haitians, who are born outside of Haiti, who go back to Haiti, because, even if you look at social media like you, look at certain people that are really willing to throw themselves on the front line and fight for Haiti. These are born, raised Americans and whatnot, and they're fighting for social justice. That'd be the only kind of people who'd go back with financial support if they had it, but out of the ashes, I don't see anyone rising from.
Speaker 2:Haiti itself from within to do what they got to do.
Speaker 5:May I ask a question about that just? Sitting back and listening. What is the solution in your opinions? What is the return route for Haiti to be able to recover from years of just being punished? For being free. I like that you use that word.
Speaker 1:That's exactly what it is.
Speaker 2:Being punished for being free.
Speaker 1:We've gotten so far and even when we look at our people, the mindset, the lack of education, the hunger, lack of jobs, we would need good leadership. I think that's one. Having somebody who one wants to see Haiti win, who cares about the people and also who knows how to manage resources and not just hoard resources for themselves right. Having folks who care like deeply care about the wellbeing of Haitians right. How can I help my people? And not just want to be in power. We can have a good leadership in power, right In position, but if the Haitians don't feel good about it, we can get very emotional.
Speaker 3:Oh, no, big time.
Speaker 1:Right, and part of that is because we don't have resources. A lot of folks are hungry, right, and when you have that, it's easy. It's easy to lose yourself and say you know, we're going to fight to get what we want, and we do have that history. But I think it will take a shift where Haitians understand you know what, again, coming from a leader, it's not going to happen overnight, it may not happen in our generation, but the goal is to get on the same page, understand that Haiti can change, can get better, but we have to do it together, and I will be your leader to guide this process, but I can't do it alone. So if you can get Haitians to be hopeful about change while you're actually creating tangible work, resources for them to actually see the change, I think we can get there.
Speaker 2:Vernon Boyle was just being interviewed. I don't know if you guys have seen this interview With.
Speaker 7:Joey.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so he has a song with Joey Duet-Fill filet which is the most popular song ever, right now I know so, he was being interviewed about it, but what he said about haitians, um, I think, is something. I think that before we're haitian, we're black folks, right in my opinion I think, before we're haitian, we're black we're africans exactly we're africans and before that we're human.
Speaker 2:So it's like so to me, like haitian just comes like way later there's a certain unification among black people. That has to happen. Yeah, I think, all over the world. It needs to be a global movement. Yes, um, so that when a foreign power wants to again put their foot on a little black country's, neck other people can be like, well, no, no, you're not, we're not doing that right.
Speaker 2:And instead of joining the the media and oh, look at heidi Hedy, ha ha, you know and making fun of it. Or, like I said, like we grew up in the 80s and 90s, you know, watching that stuff, it needs to be more of a unification. But anyway, this is what he said. Let me see if I can play it for you guys.
Speaker 7:Now you bring Joé Dwelle Fillet out at your concert in France. What did that feel like for him? This is a very big moment, right? Because I feel like Haitian people don't get the acknowledgement and the love Exactly which they should.
Speaker 6:They should probably get more love than everyone else because they started the revolution.
Speaker 6:That's right, so really we should all be paying homage, be very thankful we should all pay homage to them, and they still suffer for it to this day. That's right them. And they still suffer for it to this day. That's right. So, really, we should all rally behind them to make sure that those consequences that they say they're being imposed on them for being the leaders of the revolution don't fly. That's right, because we're so powerful and we're so many. So why are we letting what's happening in Haiti happen? You know what I mean. Why are we letting what's happening in Congo happen? That's right.
Speaker 2:Here you are. You have a Nigerian who was looking at it and seeing Haiti as the leaders of the revolution right, they started it. I'm not saying it to be like every time someone sees me bow down Walk with a Haitian flag.
Speaker 7:Respect buddy.
Speaker 2:How many times are you going to say thank you to?
Speaker 1:me.
Speaker 2:But at the very least stop shitting on them right, right, right. Because again, like at me growing up in new york, I will say I dealt with a lot of racism from long island we know yeah, what does?
Speaker 3:that mean no, because long island is known. Yeah, I mean so I was.
Speaker 2:I was on it, I was dealing with that stuff, but when it happened, either it went over my head or it was what it was. It was expected. But when it came from our people whether it was a Haitian pretending not to be Haitian or a Jamaican attacking me, or a Trini or some other dude or some Hispanic kid, and all they need to find out was you're Haitian I remember when they found out Al Bishro was Haitian oh my God, I remember it being jacked up man and all of the things that they said about Haitians during that time. You guys remember the 4H thing 4H, what is that? So, in fact, let me grab mine. That's what I was talking about the AIDS.
Speaker 1:Yes, it is, it is that.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay, four countries that were initially okay accused of having created aids, and that's where aids came from. Yeah, this is early 80s, right early 80s, and they're like aids came from haiti and we're like what the fuck?
Speaker 7:we're a clean little organic country, bro.
Speaker 2:We got nothing to do with your labs and everything that you got going on, but haiti was accused of being one of those things. Yeah, to me this is crazy.
Speaker 3:This happened. I was alive. But a lot of this is brand new to me. You were a baby. Yeah, pretty much.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 3:I was too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what were you born 79. I'm 43. Okay.
Speaker 3:Yeah, two years 81?.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what 82?, 82?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so for me living here. So America is a well-oiled machine, right? They narrate what they want to narrate right. So now, when it comes down to Haiti and what kind of information they allow, it's mostly negative. You know everyone. We have to contribute a dollar for these Haitian kids, this, that and the other. So we were never looked at as something to be proud of, right?
Speaker 4:Correct that's number one.
Speaker 3:So I'm born here, i'mitian, I'm, I'm really haitian. Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah, I don't know half of what you said earlier, true, all I know is in 1804 we were the first right. All right, okay, big ups, but understanding how the external forces plays of till today, still playing a role it, it does something to us. So now, if I didn't know, I'm pretty sure the african-american or jamaican probably didn't know in school.
Speaker 3:So it's not taught yeah, right so if I'm not here to hear it, I wouldn't know so. Therefore, it's hard to say in school you're haitian and be proud of it, because there's nothing to be proud of according to the story and the narrative of America and CNN Because it's on the news, as Haitians have AIDS.
Speaker 6:Haitians created.
Speaker 2:AIDS.
Speaker 7:So how do I go to school?
Speaker 2:the next day. I'm a 14, 15 year old kid who's already got language. You crust Dude.
Speaker 7:I'm messed up. You're ashamed of yourself.
Speaker 2:I'm over there like yeah, you don't even want to show up and also I'm not this big intimidating guy where, because there's a couple of Haitians men, you know them, straight dudes with no shoes and shit.
Speaker 5:Maybe they go learn in school where we won. When I say we black people, in y'all's case the Haitians like where did we have a story where we did something amazing in school and then that victory was celebrated? I don't even remember anything in public school even close to that. No, no.
Speaker 2:It wasn't talked about.
Speaker 5:Even the stories of Harriet Tubman. They didn't share with us that she was a spy and carried a gun. We didn't know.
Speaker 1:That's the thing, that's the issue, right, and I think there's a George Santayana who said those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.
Speaker 3:And.
Speaker 1:I think that's one of our issues in the black, not just Haitians. Right In the black community, we don't know our history and we end up treating each other the way the masses treated us Exactly. There you go. You should sit right there. You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:We treat them the way we were treated, because as soon as we get the leg up, we think, oh well exactly, we're better, I mean look, yeah, racism at some point is fabricated, is created, because, well, look, you're the poor whites, but at least you're not black, so you're better than that's what they, what they use them, right, exactly exactly so the same thing, they look at all the blacks and all the americans like well, at least you're not haitian right, yeah, I'm telling you, you just keep going.
Speaker 2:Haitians look at each other and say, well shit, at least I'm not D'Arcyan right and it's all, and it goes, and it just yeah, so I always say look, if we were all exactly we all came from, let's say, one giant continent where there was no break and we all looked the same same heights, and we would still, as humans, find a way to discriminate against somebody else to feel superior by just being born into this.
Speaker 1:Right, it used to be faint like last names. Right, you know you're from this tribe, correct. Right, then you have money. Then you, you know you're royal. Right, it always existed in Africa. I took this one course the African. I think it was the African-American experience in college. It blew my mind. We were taught to be the way we are today. Right, white folks will tell you, africans sold Africans to white people they love saying that shit.
Speaker 3:That was not the case, so I didn't want to break up the storyline, but that's not the case. That was not the case. No, no, no.
Speaker 1:They went with guns and alcohol and threatened one tribe. If you don't give me access to this, I'm going to let the other tribe I'm going to give the other tribe guns to come destroy you Right. And so with that it's like well, I don't want you to annihilate my tribe. Then you know, I'm going to sell the other tribe to you, right, and let you do what you need to do you're under duress again I don't want to say I don't keep saying white folks, but like european folks, right, that's what they did, right?
Speaker 1:so selling us the story of we are always against ourselves, no, we were taught to be against ourselves, right, we were taught to see the next black person as an enemy. And so I think you know again, like we have to learn the history, we have to understand it. So we don't allow the story that has been perpetrated or taught to us to dictate how, as a whole, understanding that we are one and we are the same that boat drops should not have man.
Speaker 2:Totally to this point. This is years later. It's like they've taught you certain things, yeah, and then you're still being mind fucked four centuries later right at some point, you gotta go. Okay, that's what the masters wanted me to hear, right, but I have to realize. I mean, think about the haitian revolution itself. Yeah, I always remind people, the haitian revolution was started by a voodoo priest right named bookman, where, was he from? Jamaica correct, yeah, right so he was a slave from jamaica who was sent to haiti?
Speaker 2:and, you know, started the haitian revolution in a way with that very prominent voodoo ceremony. But talk to a Jamaican about voodoo.
Speaker 3:No, we don't do that shit and we know better Today we know better.
Speaker 4:It's a cultural thing.
Speaker 2:But, here's the thing it's because of the stigma. Why do you think voodoo's bad? It's not. It's exactly the same as Catholicism, except this one's black. It's exactly the same as Catholicism, except this one's black Right. But if you look at the hierarchy of angels and archangels and saints and all of these different, I was raised Catholic so I understand it and I look at the parallels with voodoo, I'm like it's the same thing, except one is black. So what do you do if you're a white person or you're a colonizer?
Speaker 7:You demonize it.
Speaker 2:And then you say oh look, I'm going to make a movie and show you Serpent and the Rainbow Right.
Speaker 1:So you can see, oh, I remember that yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm going to go to school the next day.
Speaker 7:I was so scared I came out.
Speaker 2:I was like all this nonsense, man, You're seeing all this crazy yes, you know, but meanwhile there are videos all over the internet showing white italian people dancing with haitian garb, with the whites and the reds and everything else, doing the doing, the rituals, the rituals, and they're just seeing it as beautiful art and worship like new orleans.
Speaker 4:Yeah, exactly, go to new orleans, you know white folks are like oh, this is, it's great.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly but it is what I'm saying. It's all about the education man. It's all about what we learn, what we know and what we accept and what we question too, because a lot of people they accept what it is. I remember I was working. I was at ups working.
Speaker 2:I was much younger man and then it was around christmas time yeah and everyone's saying merry christmas to each other and leaving and he goes you hate, you celebrate Christmas and I was like why wouldn't I? So he goes. Well, because I just figured you just do voodoo and that's it. Wow, I swear to God.
Speaker 3:He's just a product, though, right, right, you know what I?
Speaker 2:mean. So at that point I was old enough to speak to him and remind him that, went back to that, that little piece of history, and told him who that guy is and I said he's who he is because of my people and what we did to help you be where you are right now talking to you about voodoo, you dumb fuck.
Speaker 1:Yeah exactly, yeah.
Speaker 3:So if you don't know, man, yeah, if you don't know, and it's hard to, actually, it is because who's going to teach, right?
Speaker 5:do you see that there's a deficiency with us as Southerners versus maybe Northerners in terms of the black experience and being supportive to Haitians? What?
Speaker 2:I've noticed is that the more educated people get it Right, and the people who just listen to the news and just basically says, well, this is what the news is showing me. You know, like there was something I think was like a year ago, where there was this white reporter who was on the news and was like, well, you know, they're in Haiti, they can't eat, they can't find food.
Speaker 7:Yeah, and then she said what they're eating dirt, they're eating dirt, they're eating the trees she goes, there's no more trees to eat the trees and I was like.
Speaker 2:How is that even humanly possible?
Speaker 5:How is it Right? I remember the clowning.
Speaker 2:Like no, it's not that bad.
Speaker 5:That's the only way you can respond to it.
Speaker 2:What do I have to do? Really, we're eating trees.
Speaker 5:It's kind of like Trump did with the president of Liberia. Remember the other day he was like oh, you speak English.
Speaker 2:Where'd you learn it? It's the official language, right?
Speaker 3:You know I love Trump. I'm going to tell you why. Oh boy.
Speaker 7:I'm going to tell you why.
Speaker 3:Uh-oh.
Speaker 4:Uh-oh.
Speaker 3:No, hear me out, though. The reason why is he's not scared to be a fool? Yo, really, it's just like yo. He just shows the ignorance you know, that's there.
Speaker 2:He highlights it right, right.
Speaker 1:Yes, he really does totally totally, and just like when he went to Puerto Rico after the tornado. He was just like he asked for that president, and they were like sir, it's you right, right. What I would say, though, to your question? I think you know a lot of folks, african descent folks, here don't necessarily know who they are. Yeah, right, because you don't have that foundation where you can go back and say you know what, what? I'm from Haiti, I'm from Jamaica, I'm from Africa, right, and so you look at yourself as Americans, but you're not really treated as Americans, and so there is this cognitive dissonance where I'm like, well, I'm not being treated as American, but then I'm better than the black folks from the Caribbean, right From the island.
Speaker 4:Right.
Speaker 1:And so I think we have again, like you were saying, stefan, like we have to get to a space where we're like you know what, even though I've been here, my ancestors are from here, you know, from slavery, but we're still the same. You're not different just because you're from Haiti or Jamaica or wherever else, right? So I think we had we have to get to a space where we can say I am the same as you. Yes, how can I support you? How can we come together and make sure that we have a community that actually embrace all African descent people?
Speaker 5:I have noticed that, with people of Haitian descent, you all have carry a much different level of confidence with you when it comes down to your interactions with white folk. It made me very aware that, as a 70s baby, I was taught, either just through cultural cues or whatnot, growing up, that there was a way to act around white folks. So meaning I became aware at an early age that we were to cast our eyes downward, for example, we were to make ourselves smaller, don't be too loud, don't be too scary, and that was the expectation. Being a child of the South, have you all noticed a difference? Having not had that influence of white folks to the same, because I feel like it affected my confidence in being around them, whereas y'all, out of the rip and even as young men, were far more confident than we were, having the influences of racism and being expected to act certain ways around white men.
Speaker 2:Big time. So before I answer your question, I know Mark wants to jump in too. You had to make yourself small. How tall are you?
Speaker 3:Six five. You're like 10 feet man Six five.
Speaker 5:but my kids told me I've lost a quarter inch. Got it, got it, got it. But that was the expectation, you know, to the extent that we had to be smaller so that we weren't scary.
Speaker 1:You know that's a very interesting question.
Speaker 3:It really is.
Speaker 1:I love it actually yeah yeah, and here's the caveat right. As Haitians, we're actually taught the same thing, but when it comes to adults, right.
Speaker 2:As children.
Speaker 1:You can't look adults in the eyes, right? You can't talk back, right? So there were a lot of things that we were taught based on the fact that we learned them from slavery. To go back to your question, black folks here, your, I don't want to say your slavery ended like 50 years ago.
Speaker 4:Right, exactly right.
Speaker 1:So, even when we talk about jim crow laws right, we talk about segregation you still had to be protected, yeah, and so your folks, your parents, had to tell you you cannot confront black, white folks as a way to for you to be protected. You can't go here because it's not safe, right, because you black, right. So. So it was a form of protection for you as Haitians. That ended 200 years ago, right, right. So a lot of us grew up with that pride of blackness, right, there's like we Haitians and we didn't have that teaching where we had to be told you can't look at white folks because we didn't have a lot of white folks in Haiti. It be told you can't look at white folks because we didn't have a lot of white folks in Haiti. It was just like, well, we're Haitians, right? Yeah, so it's the teaching for you because, again, you had to be protected as a child and parents. They were a lot of fears, like I don't want you to go out and not come home.
Speaker 2:That's exactly what I was going to say. You know, I grew up in Haiti. There was classism and again, keep in mind I just said earlier, like humans will find a way to discriminate against other humans, no matter what. So if it wasn't about how light your skin was, it was in my family and the people I came up around. It was about a last name. I would have friends that you know. Before they could come over and play, they would ask who that kid is, who their parents are. My grandmother would determine whether or not he can't come over here. If he's not, so-and-so, but then I never.
Speaker 2:What is it? Five to six percent of whites in Haiti. So we're the majority. And then there's a lot of people who are mixed. There's a lot of people from the Middle East, Syria and places like that. So we have a mixed culture, but it's predominantly black. And it had to do with who you are, what you've accomplished, also your level of education, and there, what you've accomplished, also your level of education. There were times in Haiti where I wasn't allowed to speak the national language, our language. At home. I couldn't speak Creole. You were bougie man. Yeah, no, I didn't mean to say yeah, I was happy to say yeah, it's true.
Speaker 5:But I wasn't allowed.
Speaker 2:It was rude to my parents, To an Indian adult. I could only speak French.
Speaker 3:So Creole was rude. Yes, correct, wow, my language, my black language right, the haitian language.
Speaker 2:It's because that's what my parents knew. When my parents get together, my mother and father if one of them could not speak french, it would not be together, because his education was up here, hers was up here and this they would get together. You would never find that mix. Yeah, that was a badge of honor. If he would try and talk to her and his French was messed up, she'd be like no, you can't keep up, you can't even have a conversation with me, so why would I talk to you so?
Speaker 2:then coming up. I didn't speak Creole until I came to the States, or unless I was out in the streets with my friends, and if I was out and about we all.
Speaker 3:But that was it, and I gotta be real careful. Who's hearing me? You know so, even at home, you know that. At home, yeah, it actually permeates, you know, the community stereotype and it just breaks it apart still because.
Speaker 2:But again, I say all that to say that my sense of I never, ever ever had a sense of inferiority growing up in haiti. So I come here and I run into white folks. I don't think of you as you ain't shit it doesn't matter to me.
Speaker 3:It's funny. You say that it sounds awesome.
Speaker 7:Yeah, I don't think of it.
Speaker 2:In fact, when I experienced racism the first two or three times, I didn't recognize it as such. I could have been killed. My first experience I'm walking in the streets of Almonte, long Island, and I'm carrying a bike because the wheel was broken. So me and my friend who grew up here terrified of white folks because he's from Queens, and he's walking in his Long Island town with me and he's scared and he tells me he's like man, I don't like this man, I don't like this at all. I'm like what are you talking about? I live up the street, let's go.
Speaker 2:And this guy gets out of the car and comes around hey, where do you live? Again, my English is so-so I understood that. I was like I live on Essex road and he just keeps hounding us. I thought he was lost. I have zero fear. I'm not understanding what's happening. My friends over here shaking. I'm like I don't know what's happening. The guy's lost. We need to give him directions. So I said where do you want to go? He's asking me where you don't know. You looked at this, yeah, yeah. So I'm like well, you need directions. Because I'm happy, because I know all these streets, because you know I play out here. So I'm like you know, this is locust wood, this is essex. You know what? What do you want to know? And and he goes in his trunk, gets a bat. Oh boy, I still don't know what's going on, because I'm maybe he's gonna help me fix the bike. So I should know better, but I didn't, because I did not recognize that because I know I didn't do anything to this person he's an adult, I'm a kid.
Speaker 2:Imagine me at 15. I weigh 90 pounds, right, right, why would you? I'm four feet four feet tall. I weigh 90 pounds. I'm not a threat to anyone, so I don't think that an adult getting out of a car is a threat to me.
Speaker 2:I'm not thinking that way. Right, right, so it was another dude. An older white guy who saw the interaction stops his car, gets out and he goes and pulls this guy aside and tells him something and the guy gets in his car and leaves and he goes. You boys can go home, yeah you're about to kill a child yeah, but there's times in my adult life, in my 40s, where someone has been overtly racist that I just thought they were being an asshole.
Speaker 2:I didn't think that you were doing because I was black, because I don't ever think that first I go there second or third.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my first thought is oh, what a jerk. I know. Yeah same, yeah same for me. And there's one thing, too, that we're guilty of, as haitian people, big time guilty of. Like I said before, we have our own classism, right, it's who's this kid? You know, you don't play with this kid because their last name is so and so and it's like, yeah, no, that kid is beneath you, right? What are the shameful names? The family, can we say it? Can we talk about?
Speaker 2:it no, no, so that's so. That's a good question. There's no such thing, but there were names that were associated with the people you'd run into in the capital. Port-au-prince and there were some names where we'd call these people mountain folks. What does that mean, mountain people? We just call them mountain people. They're from the hills.
Speaker 5:Country bumpkins.
Speaker 1:I'd be one of those.
Speaker 2:Okay, and even here, when I came here, I would hear Haitians get into a scuffle and they would insult each other and I remember one person saying to the other he goes. The only reason I'm me and you, you and I are having a discussion is because we're here in the United States. Really, he goes in Haiti all the time music.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly like when there's an argument. That's exactly what that's their go-to you wouldn't even be talking to me if I wasn't in America playing in. This is correct wow because oh'm the educated guy, I've got the last name.
Speaker 7:I've got.
Speaker 2:But if we're in Haiti? No, your family works for my family, right as in, you clean my house.
Speaker 5:That is such an ignorance. Do they call it a caste there? Do they acknowledge it as a casteism?
Speaker 3:It's known.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:It's just known. So I used to go often every year, maybe two or three times a year. Yo guys, I apologize, I'm about to tell you a story. No, go for it.
Speaker 1:Go for it, listen first time I went to Haiti, tell me your white privilege story. Well, almost Almost, almost.
Speaker 3:So first time I'm going to Haiti, you know they had to figure something out, you know to get me a passport. And the first time I'm going I'm like what? 17, 18, whatever? Shout out to New York All Stars right, new York All Stars. So the drummer couldn't go, so they got me to replace or whatever. So I'm going to Haiti first time. I didn't know if they had fridges, I didn't know if they had toilets. I'm like maybe I got to go use.
Speaker 4:I didn't bring my own bag.
Speaker 3:They always used to tell me stories about people going in the yard Get a latrine or whatever, maybe something like that, I don't know, there's some truth to it, though. I know I know, but it's not.
Speaker 2:You bumpkins.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I was fearful because I had this ignorance. It was amazing.
Speaker 3:So, sometimes I, I listen, I give a pass, I give grace to certain people we don't know, Right. So I get to Haiti. I'm just like yo. They have toilets, the fridge is dope, I didn't know. I was able to order a burger, bro. When I tell you my mind was blown and fries, and I was at Montana, I believe, or something like that Dope-ass hotel. When I tell you, I was blown away and I came back and I was trying to tell people, but it's hard to you know they think you lying, Right.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, because of the stories. It's the same about Africa, africa is like the jungle.
Speaker 5:There's no electricity there, exactly.
Speaker 2:Even back to coming to America, you learn all that shit fighting tigers and lies.
Speaker 6:Well, you learn all that.
Speaker 3:That's real. It's true, man. The ignorance is crazy. No, it's real man.
Speaker 2:But what we're guilty of like big time is we carry that prejudice right, in whatever form, ourselves. Because when I came here, the very first thing my father told me is don't you let me catch you playing with none of these little american bums, right, the black americans who are beneath the foreigners in their minds, so that, whether it be Haitians, I know it's true in the African community as well.
Speaker 2:I don't know if it's true anywhere else, but I know the Africans and again, it's older ignorance. I don't know if it's really prevalent today, but there's a lot of things that when it happens in the black community that the foreigners Haitians, africans will look at the black Americans as if you're the cause of this, you, the black Americans, as if you're the cause of this, you're the reason they treat me that way. I moved to Alpharetta and there's prejudice because your black ass came into the neighborhood and acted a fool. So it's always to blame them and I always remind them. I go. You realize, the only reason you're here and you can live in that neighborhood is because all of the black Americans who fought for this because the it wasn't from Africa, right, it was from the Dr Kings, it was from the John Lewis's, it was from all the people who did all that to allow you to be here, so be grateful, but initially their first thought is no, these people are different from us example, you know when an adult was in the room.
Speaker 5:You know children were to be seen and not heard. Now, as a little boy, I didn't like that, but I was aware of it. You know what I mean. But so I hear the similarity. So it makes me wonder how much of what we got came from what you all were doing we were taught by the same teachers yeah, the same colonizers, right yeah? They had the same manuals right because I bet everybody in here got whooped growing up yeah.
Speaker 1:Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 5:Right, I have an alarming number of white friends who have never been spanked. Right, right, yeah.
Speaker 2:I'll sit to just kind of bring it back all the way around when it comes to correcting our children. I don't know what it's like today, because I haven't been in Haiti Y'all going to laugh, but since I left, Really yeah.
Speaker 7:I've been in Haiti since 1986.
Speaker 2:I've not been to Haiti.
Speaker 3:Well, first of all, you're not Haitian anymore. I know you gave up that card a long time ago.
Speaker 2:Dang bro. So I was getting whooped in school. I went to a Catholic school where that was allowed. Yeah, like the teachers, they weren't abusive Somewhere. It depends on the school, right. So the school that I went to because there was some like some dignitaries children's there, they would be real careful, like you know. It's like I'm not gonna beat those kids because you know hell I could disappear, you know. So they knew who to mess with, right, um, and it wasn't bad. But it was like stick your hand out, yeah, and they had a big piece of wood like them, two by four from home depot and you're gonna get that in your hand the ruler in your hand
Speaker 1:the ruler it thicker.
Speaker 2:My boy was a lot thicker than the ruler man.
Speaker 1:Got it.
Speaker 2:He was this big piece of wood, and it was just like smack, Yep, and there is something called dicte. What that is is he would. The teacher would narrate something and you'd have to write it down. He would walk around the room. He would narrate an entire three paragraphs. That's French for dictation Correct Right while I talk Exactly, and while he was writing it, I mean, I'm writing it.
Speaker 7:You remember a lot. Yeah, dude, I mean.
Speaker 2:I went to high school before.
Speaker 7:I came here.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean and then you hand that in and then he'd correct it. The next day. He'd come back and look at how many spelling errors you made. Each spelling error is one of them. Licks in your hand, bro I used to return it with zero. That's why like my spelling is on point, because there were certain things that I I was like I didn't want to get hit but it proves to be effective.
Speaker 3:Huh, you're a great speller even the text.
Speaker 7:I was looking at this brother's text messages.
Speaker 5:I was like he is on point.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I won't.
Speaker 2:I won't shortcut things, I will use punctuation in my text you know so right, just bringing this all the way back around. What do you think are some of the steps that we can take forward from this point on, whether it be unify our people, educate our people so they understand, when they see a haitian person, why they deal with certain things, why things are the way they are. Because, again, even people who are close to me, they'll still ask the question like why is it this way in Haiti? I'm like, I get exasperated. I'm like how do you not know? I know, well, okay, let me explain it to you, and then they'll still come back and but can't y'all do this, can't y'all do that? I'm like not without foreign interference. There's always this foreign interference.
Speaker 1:So we're not free. Well, I think, at baseline, we have to educate ourselves, not just on Haitians, but overall, right? So it would be a lot to ask folks who are not of Haitian descent to learn the history and understand it and not have questions. Right, there's always gonna be questions. And even to what's going on right now in Haiti, a lot many of us don't understand it. Right, we're from Haiti. We don't know what's going on, right, because it's so deep from you know the 50s, and then the 30s, and then the early 1900s and the 1800s. You'd have to go all the way back to really understand why we are here, like why we are where we are now. But I think, as African-Indonesian people collectively, we have to learn a sense of togetherness, right, unity, right, where we understand we have the same story. Right, we have the same history, and so when we can get to that space, we can learn to see each other.
Speaker 1:As. This is my brother, yeah, right, this is my sister. Yes, this is me from a different country. This is me from a different household, right? How do we come together? Right, I don't look at you as I don't know. I can't remember what the word was, stefan you said because you're a little black American boy, the bums, the bums.
Speaker 5:The bums right. I didn't know that I was like.
Speaker 2:you know what I'm saying it's the bums, the accent makes them, they pronounce it the bum, the bum, the bum, don't play with the bum.
Speaker 5:I have a new wrinkle in my brain, right, I don't look at you.
Speaker 1:You know, because you light skin or dark skin, that we're different Because we get treated the same way by the European folks, right, yeah. And so we have to understand that and take away this, the stereotypes, the classism, the colorism, the discriminations against each other, right, and really say I am choosing, we have to make that choice. I'm choosing to learn my history and I'm choosing to embrace who I am as an African descentan descent individual. That's good, and that way I don't have to pretend or think that I'm better than somebody from africa or from, you know, a neighboring island country yeah, you don't know, man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's gonna wrap it up, man. So what we do, at the end of every show we flip a coin and then one of you guys will do an impression, an impression of what an impression of you have to do an impression, an impression of what An impression of you have to read the outro notes in whoever's impression, whoever's voice you're doing, you ready? I gotta stop laughing.
Speaker 1:Oh no, we're supposed to laugh?
Speaker 2:We're definitely not going to be kind to you, I know right.
Speaker 1:You're getting greeted.
Speaker 5:I need to stop laughing so I can read it. I need to stop laughing so I can read it.
Speaker 1:I need to stop laughing, so I can read it All right so you ready?
Speaker 2:Yeah, all right, so go ahead. Mark, you're doing an Indian accent, is that right? Yeah, all right, go for it bro.
Speaker 4:Please support us. Let's go. I love it. Let's go. I don't know if that's. Indian or some kind of Arabic accent? Alright, here we go, I'm ready please support us by following the show. Leave us a 5 star review on Apple Podcast. Thank you, I like it. I like it. Thank you so much for listening. We'll catch you next week. You, I like that. I like that. Thank you so much for listening. We'll catch you next week when we share conversations surrounding real issues we deal with every day.
Speaker 1:Manhood Matters we out.
Speaker 3:I like it. I like it. I gotta give you a round of applause, listen. Yes sir, I'm sorry, I don't know. I gotta give you a round of applause, listen. Yes, sir.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry.
Speaker 4:I was better than mine. A podcast for all that. I point at you.
