Manhood Matters Podcast
Conversations around challenges dominating a man's journey through life. These topics are explored by real, everyday friends, with a lot of experience... And we have the occasional expert guest.
Manhood Matters Podcast
Strong Women, Fed Up Men, Defeated Sons, Broken Daughters
"Forgiveness doesn't have to be you going to somebody and saying 'I forgive you.' Forgiveness is a choice you make." These powerful words from Mark Monplaisir cut to the heart of healing generational trauma in the Black community.
In this profound conversation, organizational psychologist and author Mark Monplaisir joins us to discuss his book "Strong Women, Fed Up Men, Defeated Sons, Broken Daughters: Healing Generational Pain." Mark shares his deeply personal journey of growing up without his biological father and the anger that consumed him until a therapist asked the transformative question: "Who are you punishing?" The answer wasn't his absent father—it was himself.
We explore how historical trauma from slavery continues to shape Black relationships today. Black men and women often view each other as sources of pain rather than partners in healing. Mark expertly breaks down how these dynamics play out in modern relationships, from expectations around providing and protecting to the different standards applied to interracial relationships. His guidance on moving from blame to understanding offers a pathway forward: "It's not your fault, but it is your responsibility."
The conversation dives into practical approaches to healing—creating safe spaces for vulnerability, practicing self-care without guilt, and engaging in honest dialogue with our children. Mark shares how he regularly asks his daughter, "What can I do to be a better dad?"—a simple yet powerful practice that transforms parent-child relationships. We discuss the balance between addressing structural barriers and taking personal responsibility for our healing journey.
Whether you're struggling with forgiveness, trying to break unhealthy relationship patterns, or seeking to create a healthier foundation for your children, this episode provides both the understanding and practical tools to move forward. Listen now and take the first step toward healing your generational pain.
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I've never met my biological father. Yeah, like I was carrying so much guilt, so much anger, so much resentment, and I was hurting myself. I couldn't sleep. My relationship with women was so unhealthy because I didn't care. Yeah, I just wanted to hurt people. And so the therapist told me who are you punishing? And I said I'm punishing him for what he did. And he said no, you're punishing yourself. How Well, who's hurting? Forgiveness doesn't have to be you going to somebody and say I forgive you. Forgiveness is a choice you make, and so from that moment on, right.
Speaker 2:Today we have Zoe Murphy returning to the pod for the second week in a row and joining us all the way from New York, mr Mark Monplaisir. Mark is an organizational psychologist, wellness coach, public speaker, just to name a few, but he's also authored a couple of books. Be sure to check out the show notes to see his body of work and to follow him on social media. Now we all have trauma in our lives and this continues to plague us Even after we thought we had moved on. Trauma affects every relationship we have, be it with our friends, parents, our most intimate relationships and, perhaps the most concerning of all, our children. In his book Strong Women, fed Up Men, defeated Sons, broken Daughters, mark masterfully exposes the reasons we have struggled by using his personal story of forgiveness, resilience, pain, in addition to his academic research and amazing talent to simplify all of it so that the rest of us can use this resource in the most practical way. Our relationships, especially in the black community, have challenges that have deep roots. It's not always just your fault, as Mark brilliantly explains. It's not your fault, but it is your responsibility. This gives you the tools. The issues have roots from before you were even born. You are a mosaic of hundreds of people. You've inherited their DNA, their habits, their pain. But if you want to learn how to improve those relationships, especially with the family that you created, listen to this episode all the way through and please share it with your partner and anyone else you think this might benefit.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Manhood Matters. Let's get to it. We have with us in the studio today our our very special guest, mark Montplaisir. I'm here with my boy, zole Murphy, as well, but Mark's written a book and I had to speed read this thing, bro, and I got to tell you I've learned so much and I'm going to let you explain. Just give us a quick overview of what it's about, because it's a conversation we absolutely have to have. You know what's cool? I'll say this about your book I think everyone at 20 years old should be given a copy, I think if you're a black man or woman?
Speaker 2:especially women, I'm going to say because there's certain things where I wanted to kind of quote your book and be like babe, come read this, and we had a little disagreement or whatever, and I'm like I kind of want to communicate it this way and I don't have the words, I don't have the tools and the resources. I feel like I'm not getting through and reading your words. I think those are tools that anyone could use and if a man and woman in a relationship together both read it individually and then come together, man, it could be some powerful stuff. But before we start I got to ask you one question, man. Yes, why the hell is the title so long bro?
Speaker 1:I wanted people to read it and get shocked by it, you know. But, man, that was one of the best endorsement and introduction ever. All right, well, hey, man, it was so hard. I appreciate that, I appreciate that.
Speaker 2:So the name of the book is Strong Women, fed Up Men, defeated Sons I'm still going Broken Daughters Healing Generational.
Speaker 1:Pain. Yeah, that's the dynamic we have in a lot of our communities, and so I wanted people to read it and get a sense of oh wow, this has been my experience, right, just based on okay, I'm a fed up man, right, whatever that means for you. I'm a defeated son, whatever that means for you. I'm a strong woman, right, whatever that means for you. Ever since I was a kid, I was always curious about why people think that what they do, why they do the things that they do, and I wanted to understand it, and so I started reading things that they do and I wanted to understand it, and so I started reading I love talking to people, right, just to get a sense of their stories, right, understanding who they are. How did they grow up, right, how did that play into them being who they are today? And even my own, you know my own story. I wanted to understand myself, and so I was married, got divorced in 2019.
Speaker 1:And I remember I went to Miami that same week. I moved out separated and it was my birthday weekend. I got to get away. I got to just kind of regain yourself, right, reprocess and then refocus right. Recenter all of that, and when I got to Miami and I remember that night it was a Friday night I'm in the hotel room, it was pouring and I started listening to gospel music and then I started playing TD Jakes and something came over me. I started bawling, just crying, and I was crying from like maybe 11, 8 pm to about four o'clock in the morning. Yeah, yeah, right, I started praying and then it was almost like a revelation. Something said you need to write a book. And I got back to New York Sunday night and that same night I started writing. Like I remember, I started writing on my phone and I didn't know what I was going to write about.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But it was just that spirit said you need to write a book. And then when I started writing, I was like, okay, well, IDs are coming, they're coming to me, Right. And so I gave myself a schedule. Every weekend I'd spend like seven, eight hours, oh wow, Saturday, Sunday, just writing, right. And then, as I started to structure the book, I wanted to get more stories and so I started interviewing clients.
Speaker 1:So I was doing mental health coaching at the time and I'm like, well, let me talk to this client just to get a sense of her, like real story. Like what would she say to her younger self? What would she do if she hadn't learned different? Right, If her foundation was different? How would that have changed her dynamic right now? And as you can see in the book, there are stories about people sharing okay, well, you know, like writing letters to themselves. And so, based on what I've learned having interviews, hearing people's stories I can tell you. When people ask me about the book, like what was your process, I'm like I don't know. I was so inspired I was being fed the words.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was being fed the words and when. So I gave myself about a year. I started in August, started writing it and it was done the next, the following august, I had a beta readers, like people reading the book. Just a little, let me know what you think. Does it make sense, right? Do you think it aligns with people's stories? Because I'm like it's my story. Sure, a lot of it, right, and it's. It's a lot of people's stories that I grew up with and seeing their dynamics and getting to understand who they are. But I'm like let me get a true feedback from people. People were crying.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, they read the book, they were crying, they were like this is my story. I was never aware of it, but this was my experience. And so, from understanding even the foundations we inherited from slavery, right to understanding how we've been taught, we've been conditioned to see ourselves a certain way. And now we learning purpose, we learning forgiveness, right. We learning, you know, generational pain, we learning to see our parents not just as our parents, but as a man and a woman, right? What have we learned that we can actually unlearn so we can create our own dynamic? And so the book has been very powerful in that sense.
Speaker 1:And it's also at the libraries public libraries in New York because somebody was like this book needs to be at the library, it needs to be at school, having gotten into the school system, yet. That's why I said this was one of the best endorsements, because people read the book and was like, well, this is powerful. Yeah, because many of us have never heard stuff like this before. Many of us never really took time to even think about the foundation that we inherited, right, whether it's from our parents or if we want to take it all the way back from slavery. Talking about self-awareness, talking about generational awareness. Talking about cultural awareness, self-awareness, talking about generational awareness. Talking about cultural awareness how can we actually learn what those things are, those detrimental patterns, unhealthy traditions? And then we can unlearn what they are, so we can make room for something healthier.
Speaker 2:The reason you had that reaction from a lot of people is because I think we are made to believe at times that our story is unique. When I was going through it, I believe I was the only one. I was in a very unhappy, unhealthy relationship because of both sides, because I had my brokenness and my issues and I didn't recognize them and she had hers and we got together and I'm supposed to be your everything. No, I'm not that you know so. Then it's all these different things. And again, if I had the tools to understand that and deal with it. So, yes, and people will look at that, and people will look at their stories, but they can find themselves in your stories. But what I love about it too. You just said this is my story. I slightly disagree. Well, I don't disagree, it is your story.
Speaker 2:But here's what I found in reading the book it's your story accompanied by an instruction manual that goes along with every step. It breaks it down. If I get into a fight with my wife right now about the rice is too hot or too salty or whatever it is, that's not really what that fight is about. That fight is about something much deeper. So the way you communicate and you resolve any conflict is you have to really understand what is the initial conflict or what's the reason for it. So I think that's what I love about your book, because your book goes back to explaining why.
Speaker 2:You know, we had this episode on Haiti, when we talked about the reasons Haiti is the way it is is because of X, y and Z. Now you can understand why people are the way they are. Well, if I know why, not what's wrong with me, but the trauma, the generational trauma, the DNA, what's been imprinted. You know, I'm a mosaic of hundreds of ancestors, you know. And then here I am and so is this other person, and they had their own shit to deal with. And then you break it down by going way, way, way back, even when you talk about, hey, this is how the masters addressed the slaves, and then, when we got our freedom, that's how we address our children, not the healthy way, I didn't want to talk about slavery, and you know, and as you can see, it's really brief.
Speaker 1:The first chapter talks about the foundation. We can get lost in that right, but I wanted us to understand. We didn't create this. This may not be our fault, but we're still responsible. Even though we didn't create this, this may not be our fault, but we're still responsible even though we didn't create it right.
Speaker 2:I like that, and so so so go ahead.
Speaker 1:So. So we have to understand just because somebody gave me a story, a foundation, doesn't mean that I have to keep building on it. I can still go and scrape that bottom and start building differently. If it's crooked, I can still add layers to make it straight. That way, I can build what I want.
Speaker 1:Even when we're talking about our parents, we have to look at their dynamic, because they taught us to be a version of themselves, and that's something I had to do. Look at my mom and even my grandparents, and I'll talk about that. I think I talked about it in book when I had to go to Haiti in 2008, because I lost who. I was right, I lost me, so I needed to go back to where I came from, right To who raised me, so I could get a sense of. You know what. This is the foundation you were given. I have to learn to be objective and say you know what? I still love you as my mom, but you weren't perfect. The way you raised me was not perfect. So now, what can I do about that? Because I'm not blaming you. That's what you knew. That's what you had. I had a conversation with my mom a few years ago, she's very loving to my daughter and I said well, you've actually never told me you love me, wow. And she said well, you've actually never told me you love me. And she said I know, because when I was growing up I didn't even know love was a thing. Wow. And that broke me. Yeah, I was like well, I am sorry, but I love you. And so I had to learn to empathize with her experience so I could actually forgive her.
Speaker 1:Our communities right Oftentimes. It's not necessarily that a lot of the things that we do are wrong. They're different because that's what we know, right, but they're unhealthy. Oftentimes, when we see things as wrong or right you know right and wrong then we tend to not face them, because then we associate those things with our essence. Right. But if we can say, well, this is unhealthy, then I have to look at that thing and not necessarily me. Right, I'm always going to be this person, but what I do can be different.
Speaker 1:So that first chapter talks about what we were given that foundation. We have to face it. And even when I talk about learning our history, we may not know exactly all the details, but we have to know this is not who we are. We have to know those unhealthy patterns of hating ourselves or not seeing beauty when we look at somebody of African descent who has dark skin. We have to understand those things. Those are not who we are. Those are things that we were given and we were taught and so we have to confront them.
Speaker 1:And when we can do it we can actually step. You know, step back and say you know what I'm great. And one thing as a Christian, I see myself as an image of God, not the image stature you know white folks want us to see as God, but for me, like having that spiritual being where you can't see God. So my perception of myself is greatness, because God is great. My perception of myself is I'm loving, because I see God as a loving God. I can still be tough, I can still hold power right. In fact, I hold power because nobody can take that from me and it's a choice that has to be based from learning what we were taught that were unhealthy to what we choosing to build as our own foundation.
Speaker 3:Right. You know, I think the thing that we are often accused of is being victim minded. We hear that all the time, but we have to understand that we are not looking to get anything for free, and we're also not looking to ascribe blame so that people can feel bad, because there is, in fact, a difference between fault and responsibility. Fault just means the reason why we got here. There is a series of circumstances that led to our present situation, because otherwise and this would be the thing that we really could circle back to talk to at some point in time but there's an assumption with some of our racist voices in this world that there's just something wrong with us. I'm talking about black everything. They called it a shithole country as a general term, as an equivocation to any place that cranks out brown people. You know what I mean. So we didn't do this to ourselves, but we can't wait for the people who did it to us to pull us from the position. Yeah, right, and that. I think that applies to our relationships with our women. Yeah, that applies to our positioning in the world.
Speaker 3:Now, mind you, the people who fought it is don't want to hear any parts of it. It doesn't matter what metric we use to appeal to their sense of good judgment or kindness. To appeal to their sense of good judgment or kindness. I've been giving thought to this. When it comes down to European Americans, we have to recognize that we are dealing with the descendants of Vikings. They're very proud of that. But if we look at the Viking culture, you have to recognize that. What was the goal? To make it to Valhalla? And there were two ways to do so, and that was in some or that was at the end of a blade. So this sense of sex and violence being relegated to black folks is silly all right.
Speaker 2:So, mark, I got a question for you. You highlight historical traumas role in shaping fed up men right and defeated sons. Yeah. So how does this collective pain distort masculinity in today's black men?
Speaker 1:Well, that's a great question let's go back to, especially when we're talking about the Americas right, Whether it's here in the US or Jamaica or even Haiti when you look at how black men used to be treated, you were still a boy. You could be 60 years old. You were a boy. Because of that treatment, a lot of again we're taking it back to slavery and I'll bring it back to more modern. Because of that treatment, you were never really almost like allowed to be a man. Going back to a son. You're working in the field, you're doing all these things and oftentimes it's never enough. You can never work hard enough. You can never produce enough.
Speaker 1:When we think that we're not getting it right and we keep trying, that leads to defeat, and at that point it's like, man, I've been working so hard my whole life and it still doesn't amount to anything. You get fed up. Frustration, Right, A lot of frustration, and so for a lot of men, oftentimes we get into this cocoon where we're like you know what I'll drink, you know, revert to women or violence, or just just give up. But even when we look at the 60s right, where men could not be in the house because of the system, we've always been seen as what we can do, what we can produce, what we can provide. We've always been seen as what we can do, what we can produce, what we can provide, and so a lot of those narratives have been passed down. If you're not providing happiness or financial provision, whatever it is right, You're not a real man.
Speaker 1:The way this shows up now, a lot of boys are growing up in homes where they're the man of the house. Yeah, At 10 years old, at 12 year olds right Like they become the man of the house. Yeah, A 10 years old, a 12 year olds right Like they become the man of the house.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Five year olds, you don't know how to be a man, let's talk about it.
Speaker 1:Five year olds, right, the only boy. Right, you don't know how to be a man and I'm not. I'm not even talking about providing. It's just the sense that if, up with a single mom, you want to protect, that is not your job. Again, remember, they take on that role or the role has been placed on them, and because they can't meet the needs of that role, they have a lot of confusion, they defeated because, again, you don't know what you're doing. You are a boy. This is not your role. If they're doing something right, if they say they break something down and they're trying to put it back together, they keep trying, to keep trying. They can't do it. Eventually they'll break it even more or they just give up and that's where the defeat comes in. And so, when we look at, especially relationally right, a lot of young boys, that is not their forte to build relationships at a young age.
Speaker 2:So then when they are told they're not masculine enough or they have toxic masculinity, does that come?
Speaker 1:from that it does, because we have a poor sense of what masculinity is. Yes, right, break it down for us. So okay. So, especially in the black community, I love my black people either way. Right, I love my black folks. This book's for them.
Speaker 2:This is us trying to do better, exactly.
Speaker 1:Exactly, and I wrote the book for my people right For us yeah, the thing is we associate masculinity with toughness, with authority, right, that's not what masculinity is. Masculinity is me taking care of the folks around me, it's me being responsible Service, exactly right. It's me serving others, right? So, as a man, when we talk about provision and protecting, I am serving my community, I'm serving my household, I'm serving my people. But because of European standard, we want black men to be like white men. What's the distinction? Behave the way they provide. But we're not looking at what was you know where we started, right, right, we're not looking at the fact that you know the the European community had 20 steps ahead of us.
Speaker 2:So our financial exactly Right.
Speaker 1:It's 200 steps, right, right. We never took time to actually build together, to actually understand one another. So now you have this modern culture of toxic masculinity that black people didn't invent. By the way, when this whole thing about toxic masculinity was invented, they were talking about crappy men who were using money to intimidate, to manipulate and abuse people.
Speaker 3:You did a great job of not using the words or the names. You're a good man, right.
Speaker 1:So now we embrace it and we again, we owning it, we claiming it, and that's one thing we know. We may talk about that too. We tend to claim things that don't belong to us, to describe us, to associate with us, and that is very detrimental Give me an example of that. Well, I mean so, even when we talk about the tax of masculinity.
Speaker 2:Gotcha, gotcha.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a big example of it Right. And so. But we embrace the narratives that have been created by other people. Anytime a word is trending, I refuse to use it, To embrace it. I refuse because it's not healthy. There is no substance in it right.
Speaker 2:And to stay on topic, so say, a black woman gets with a white guy, her expectations of that guy are very different. White guy doesn't have to perform as well, because it's all a performance from us, mostly men, because we have to do X, y and Z. I'm not saying that women don't have their own set of performances, but they show more grace, more patience. All black men are this, all black men are that. So talk to us about that, because you really did a great job of explaining why that is and what their expectations were in the first place. Right, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if we take it all the way back, we have to look at how, back then, black women saw white men. They were powerful, they were the providers. They Back then black women, saw white men. They were powerful, they were the providers, they were the protectors, they were the men who actually had resources, and so that created a false perception of black men. Right, you can't protect me, right, you can't provide for me because we were both slaves. Right, and so, moving forward, we look at each other as the source of our pain.
Speaker 1:Even as a man, if I'm walking down the street I see a black man in, you know, in hoodie and in saggy pants, automatically I'm like, well, I'm not safe. The spotty senses go up a little bit. Exactly, and again, we're taught those things. Yeah, and so when we get in relationships, even so, when, say, black women get into a relationship with a white man, automatically she feels safe, despite the fact that they were the abusers. Right, they were the killers, the lynchers, but she'll see him as a safe space because, well, I've been told that you know, black men are dangerous, that black men can't protect me, they're the ones hurting me.
Speaker 1:So now you don't feel safe, right, with a black man and your guards up. You have to be, you know you have to show up guarded. But when you get with the white man and you feel like well, they provide, they take care of their family, I don't have to worry, even if that's not the case. But that initial perception. I'm safe means I don't have to be aggressive. I'm safe means you get a pass. I'm safe means you're not going. Imagine, right. Imagine you're a black woman, right? You're getting abused by your slave master.
Speaker 2:The black man can't do anything to help you and I'm supposed to be a protector. I'm supposed to be a protector.
Speaker 1:Right, helpless. So that leads to resentment. Yeah, where were you, where were you? I was hurting, I was being. You know the R word. Yeah, you never did anything. So how can I trust you to actually protect me? Now and again, those things are not being said out loud, they're inherited. They're passed down from generations to generations without even being taught, because their behavior is there, their mindset is there, their feelings are there. Black men do it too. They get with a white woman. Their perception of that relationship is different.
Speaker 2:She's softer, she's more feminine, she's more more cooperative. She listens to me exactly. I can lead without resistance. Exactly so I show up. We forget why our women were resistant exactly to begin with yes, yes, so you.
Speaker 1:So, again, we have to understand where we come from and we have to get rid of those narratives so we can actually you know what? Let I see you. We went through the same thing. Now it's our time to actually heal together, right, but we both have to be in the same space where we actually accept that we're hurting. Yes, those things happen. Yes, I inherited those. Yes, those were the experiences. Yes, my parents never taught me that. But what can I do now? How can I actually have healthy relationships with the people around me? Do I keep using the same tools and traditions and patterns that have been passed down from generations to generations, or do I stop the buck? I'm choosing to be different. I'm choosing to do differently.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So let me ask you this, because this is your space as well Awareness alone doesn't change behavior. Knowing it doesn't mean you change. So what are some tangible practices that you can adopt or you would recommend that other young men adopt in order to heal and combat those generational wounds, especially in young men, I think?
Speaker 3:that one of the things that we don't do as young black men is pay attention to self-love. I think we had talked about it a bit earlier. Right, we're husbands and fathers and our lives have been predicated in service always, so we are always on the grind. We are always looking to take care of everyone and everything. We don't turn around and take care of us. The thought was that taking care of everyone and everything, we don't turn around and take care of us. The thought was that taking care of ourselves was selfish.
Speaker 3:When you really give yourself some love, say, you know, I'm going to look into therapy. I'm going to look into asking myself the questions as to why I do the things that I do and why have I established some of the patterns that I have? Why do I have these habits? Right, and then coming up with reasonable answers and looking at the things that are beneficial and the things that are not, you can figure out where to eat the fish and spit out the bones and then, once you really attribute that time to loving on yourself, I think the natural outgrowth of it is going to just be to spill over onto the people around you. You know, that was a great question how Take care of you first? When you're getting into a good place, you're just going to have a full cup, and out of that fullness you will find the ability to be creative and kind and generous, and thoughtful.
Speaker 2:So what's the balance? So we can still practice that sacrificial love, but not have resentment for the people that we're practicing it for. So there's a balance, so that we don't burn out.
Speaker 3:I'd reject the idea of sacrificial love being necessary. I think that it is rooted in a Judeo-Christian construct and this is with respect to the faith. I spent 25 years as an evangelical Christian and I recognize that the demonstration of love is evidenced by sacrifice in the cases of Christ, and I think that that has transpired into our culture. Whereas the man, as the head of the household, is to love his wife as Christ loves the church, and that's evidenced by sacrifice, meaning so that I go without, so that you can have. I don't think that that is the best way to lead. And even in the old African proverb, what do we say to one another to check up on each other? We don't say how have you been doing. We ask how are the children? I don't think there's ever a place where we needed to, where we were allowed time to choose self first, and it sounds selfish, but if you don't refill your own tank first.
Speaker 3:You sounds selfish, but if you don't refill your own tank first, you're going to be pouring from an empty cup and I don't think that's selfish. I think it's setting everybody up for failure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so can I just add something? Of course, yeah, For me, the way I look at the sacrificial love right, If you think of leadership, it's a responsibility. It's not just a position. It's a responsibility where you have to make sure that your subordinates are good, you know, they're provided for, they're protected. It doesn't mean you first or you only. It means you too. So we're talking about self-care and self-love. It doesn't mean that you only take care of you. You take care of you so you can take care of those around you right.
Speaker 1:Even when we're talking about having that balance or even providing that sacrificial love, it's sharing in a sense of leadership. I am taking on this responsibility to make sure that you good, to make sure I cover you right. But for me to be able to cover you, I actually do have to have me covered right. And for me, I believe that God is covering me and I also look at me if I'm not at my best, that I'm doing God a disservice right. And so I have to make sure that if I am in a space to protect and provide for my family or my mentees, or whether it's a group, I'm leading a church, I have to make sure I'm good right Because I'm doing God's work, even in relationships.
Speaker 1:Right, it's not my relationship, I'm managing a relationship for God. Right Because at any moment it can be taken away if it's just about me. When you see it that way, you don't see yourself as not receiving. Because even if I share with the folks around me in my community, right In my household, my friends, I don't look to receive anything in return. Right, Not even a thank you. If I want to share my best, like with my daughter, I have to be my best. I exercise because I don't want my daughter to wake up, you know, one day when I'm like 60 and she has to take care of me. Yes, and that's love, that's me protecting her.
Speaker 3:And I think even in in doing that, you see that it becomes easier to set boundaries. Absolutely right, because we love these people so much and we want to take care of them and give them everything and show them the best. But it also becomes very important for us to learn how to say no. You have to, and I know that for all of us having daughters. No, it's hard sometimes. You know, they know exactly how to work our little heartstrings to the extent to where, as you know, those nose start breaking down sometimes. So I recognize that when it's dad, can you, can we go and spend some time together now, or that it is, it is so hard to do but to say no, baby, you know, daddy's got to get a little bit of sleep right.
Speaker 1:You know you have to look at it as that protection and providing right.
Speaker 3:Yes, me saying no sometimes is me protecting her yes, and choosing myself in that moment, that's, you're protecting her even though I know she wants it and so even though it's for me right now, the big picture, it's for her benefit.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know, one of the the things that I found was oh, they did not like this. I am on my second marriage. I was married for 20 years on my first go around and so my second marriage. I'm about where you are and we're right at about three years, and so one of the things that I'm learning from being a husband in this space is that prioritizing my wife and creating a sense of structure in the house was so important. The kids after a short period of time they wanted to know. This new woman is here. What is the pecking order?
Speaker 1:Who's your favorite person.
Speaker 3:And I, without hesitation, looked at each of them and said Brittany is my favorite person. And they were incredulous.
Speaker 2:Brittany is your wife, is my wife, yes, and they were incredulous.
Speaker 3:My oldest daughter looked at me with her mouth agape. How could she be your favorite person? I said, because you beloved are going to leave me one day, and your younger sister, and that's been the sole focus of my life. I am not the best culmination of the Murphy name you are. I said. My entire life has been dedicated to being a. Get your ass and fly up out this nest.
Speaker 2:Really, they asked the wrong question. They used the wrong word, right. If you ask me who my favorite person is, there's a way I answer that question, but if you ask me who's the priority in my life as far as the pecking order as you mentioned, forget the talking about my responsibilities as a man and the commitment that I've made.
Speaker 1:So I talked about this in the book too. Right, who comes first? Everybody comes first. So here's the thing the love that I share with my significant other is not the same love you share with your children.
Speaker 2:Correct, it's different right.
Speaker 1:I love you all the same. You are all priorities. Now it looks different based on who I'm sharing it with, and so oftentimes we don't feel like we have enough love to share with everybody around us, and so we learn to compartmentalize. If I'm choosing to give you that much love, I'm choosing to give you, you know, this little bit of love right when we could just look at it as one big love, but I'm sharing it differently with different people. May I?
Speaker 3:challenge that a bit. Yeah, in the respect of sometimes, even though there's a big shared family group love like no, you know, no one's necessarily missing out on that, because the way and I hear what you're saying to the effect that the way that I love you as my, my daughter, is so different from the way that I love my wife, but no less powerful or significant, so that you're not missing anything, and I wanted to make sure I understood that that's what you were saying, right? But I also think that there's a place where you know, when you get off of work, you have to decide who you're going to spend time with first. I'm going to check in with my wife first, right, I mean, that's yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah Right.
Speaker 3:And sit with her. And now, mind you, and that's kids, even though in the moment they're not happy about it Right Every time that door closes. To this day, my 16 year old is five, almost five, 11. And she, I will see her little shadow lurking outside the door. And if she's knocking and I need, I'm saying hey, honey, can you give us just a little bit more time?
Speaker 1:It's right so. So here's the thing, though you kind of created that dynamic because you separated the love. I wouldn't have a nominal structure where you first, you second, like I wouldn't say my wife is my first priority, she's a priority, okay, so are you, everybody's a priority, but right now I need to spend time with her. That sounds like everybody gets a ribbon after the race. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:So for us laymen right so when I hear that, I hear that and I go, okay, well, someone had to win the race, right, it's five people running. Who came first, who came second? How do you say you're all priorities? Sounds like you're all winners, but we know someone did win. So when it comes to that, you said not to make it nominal. Break that down for us and explain it so I can understand it better.
Speaker 1:So when we look at family right, I love the dynamic right, the structure you create, the verbiage.
Speaker 1:however, I would have formulated it differently in terms of you know, this is the priority or this is the you know number one, right, because what I've noticed, right, when we have this, okay, she's a priority or he's a priority, then that means, well, I'm not. Again, I'm not saying that's what it is, but oftentimes children will associate me not being a priority as I'm less important. Yeah, because, again, there's no difference in loving your family, right, you love them differently. It doesn't matter if they're teenagers or adolescents or infants or whatever. Right, but the like, the way we say things matter, because that's what they internalize. Yes, right, yes, and so, and some of that was is just more geared toward the personalities of the kids, yeah, say things matter because that's what they internalize.
Speaker 3:Yes, right, and so and some of that was is just more geared toward the personalities of the kids. Yeah, my oldest daughter is the shock value child, so I will communicate with her a bit more radically and bluntly sometimes just to get her attention, cause she'll lose interest so fast. You know, some of that was like people say all the time that you know you parent them when they're younger so that you can be friends with them while they're older. And it's weird.
Speaker 3:I'm starting to see that, yeah, you know, like now the boy is a grown-up and he wants to be back here and I hear about everything. You don't hear me, it's so.
Speaker 2:I feel so lucky, right to know the end, those details I love you all the same, but there's a different love that I'm going to get into this one exactly, but if you ask me my priority and I go we are all my priorities. I don't think any of my kids would accept that as an answer. Okay, just go skip away with a cookie it depends like what's going on today all right, so I'm so.
Speaker 1:So here's the thing, though, right, right.
Speaker 2:I guess the word that I'm hung up on is priority Priority, if that question comes up.
Speaker 1:So I remember this episode from my wife and kids. When Michael's wife, gina, and his sister were fighting, they asked him this question If we were both drowning, who would you save first? And he said I would probably die trying to save you both. Right, because I love you both just equally so. So the point is, I can prioritize this person right now because they need me right now. I can prioritize my wife right now because that's what the relationship means right now.
Speaker 2:That's a great answer. I understand what you're saying. So now the best way to answer the question is to say well, it depends on the situation Exactly. I would save the one who couldn't swim, yeah.
Speaker 1:They're both drowning. Yeah, if you've got a strong swimmer here. I'm going to get the one that can't swim. None of them know how to swim.
Speaker 3:But our logical brains think like that. Later on someone's going to be angry. But I'm like baby, you're swimming 25 laps a day. This one drowns in a foot of water. What did you think I was gonna?
Speaker 1:do. It's a very illogical question to ask somebody. It's not made to be right, it's logical, exactly it's you know. It's just that somebody wants to know that they are on your priority radar.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'll give you an example. I forgot what this paradox is, but it's one where there's a bus, you're driving it and there's your daughter on one side, and you can't stop this bus. Right, you got to go left or right, right. And on the other side there's 20 people mothers, children, babies. Who do you drive the bus into? Right? Any question for me, exactly. But here's the thing that wasn't a logical answer.
Speaker 1:Right, because if we were thinking logically, you'd be like well, baby, I can save 20 people. Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah, so it's not even about logic it's not about it's just the fact that some, when somebody asks you that question, they want to feel like their priority. Yeah, right, and the moment you tell them, well, this person is the priority, then you kind of push them aside and make them feel like they're second.
Speaker 2:I'm seeing it now in a different lens based on the way you put that.
Speaker 3:Me as well, thank you.
Speaker 2:It's no different than the whole Black Lives Matter movement, where you go, all lives matter. Well, sure they all do.
Speaker 2:But in this moment this one matters for this reason and this is what we're talking about it's not saying yours doesn't matter, and so it breaks it down to explain it that way too. Yeah, so that makes sense. So, mark, in your book you advocate forgiveness quite a bit and reading your story, seeing what you had to forgive, I can see where you're coming from and I guess it took a whole lot to get you there. But how do you reconcile that, how do you reconcile that with holding individuals accountable, especially men, fathers, who have hurt other people, hurt you hurt?
Speaker 2:your family hurt your mom. How do you hold these people accountable and still find a way to forgive them?
Speaker 1:Well, forgiveness is for me. You're doing it for yourself. However, forgiveness doesn't mean that I'm not holding you accountable. I can still hold you accountable for messing up, but I'm not holding it against you and I'm also not holding you hostage in my head. So when we don't forgive, right, it's almost like we convincing ourselves this person has to live in my head in a negative way and that hurts you, because whoever you don't forgive, they could be out there living their best life.
Speaker 3:Absolutely they're not thinking about you?
Speaker 1:No, no, but you're walking around holding them hostage when they ain't even thinking about you, right? So, when it comes to forgiveness, nobody who is happy or in a good space, who's satisfied with their lives, will hurt somebody else. If you can do something hurtful to somebody else, to me, something is going on with you, and so I have learned to empathize with people like me. Forgiving you could be me, never talking to you, ever again at peace, not having to worry about you, and so when I forgive you, I'm doing it for myself, but based on that forgiveness, I can give you grace. You're not going to hurt me again, right, because I forgive you. And now that forgiveness comes with boundaries, right, that forgiveness comes with repositioning your space in my life. That forgiveness comes with me holding you accountable.
Speaker 2:Have you ever had to forgive someone that you never even had a chance to tell them that they were forgiven, so you had to pretty much do it by yourself in your own head.
Speaker 2:What does that, what does that feel like? Because I've tried it, it didn't work. So. But then I had to say to myself, as I'm growing spiritually, no, I forgive this person, right. So I said it in prayer, I said it in meditation, yeah. But then a year later I find my I'm not thinking about this person, but if the thought comes up, it evokes the same emotions, right. So I go, have I forgiven, right?
Speaker 1:I think I need to say this prayer again and I'll have to say again out loud I forgive so and so it's, it's a process, yeah, it's a process, and for me, right. And one thing actually that was huge I've never met my biological father. Yeah, and I used to be angry and I used to say, if I ever met this dude, I will kill him. Yeah, that's anger, I used to be angry. Yeah, and I used to say, if I ever met this dude, I will kill him. Yeah, that's anger, I used to be angry.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I went to therapy, especially when he got old diesel and shit.
Speaker 1:You know you know, you know you can put them. I'm sure he's older now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm sure I'm bigger.
Speaker 1:Still get his ass kicked so so I went to therapy, right, and it was 2006. Like, I was carrying so much, you know, so much guilt, so much anger, so much resentment, and I was hurting myself. I couldn't sleep. My relationship with women was so unhealthy because I didn't care. I just wanted to hurt people. And so the therapist told me who are you punishing? And I said I'm punishing him for what he did. And he said no, you're punishing yourself. How Well, who's hurting?
Speaker 1:Forgiveness doesn't have to be you going to somebody and say I forgive you. Forgiveness is a choice you make. Right For me to say you know what? I need to get rid of this, because I'm like there's a purpose for this to have happened and I'm choosing to embrace it. I can't be mad at what happened. And then he said you have to forgive your mom. I said come on, man, that's a lie, because she was there, yeah, and she took out her anger on me, yeah, right. So I'm like you want me to forgive her. She was an adult, I was a kid. But then he said again who you're hurting? And the way I forgive her was to understand her story. And that helped me empathize with her. Wow, you were a kid doing this. If I was 15 having a kid, I don't know what I would have done. I still had toys at 15,.
Speaker 2:bro, I did too.
Speaker 1:I mean, we all did.
Speaker 2:We were kids, that's kids age I had toys yeah, like I bigger toys and a nintendo, that's.
Speaker 1:That's a kid's age, right and then, to you know, to couple that with the shame she brought to the family, my grandparents sent her away. So I learned to empathize and say you know know what I'm sorry she was hurting.
Speaker 2:She was hurting. She started crying.
Speaker 1:Yeah, she was hurting. I started crying and that moment was the pivotal point of our healing journey.
Speaker 2:And speaking of parent-child interactions across generations or across genders in this particular case, you know a son and a mother and a father and a daughter. You discuss this parent-child healing quite a bit in the book. So what's one unexpected insight from the book that you want black fathers to learn from your work about the way they bond with their daughters and sons? Right, Wow?
Speaker 1:That's a really great question. That's a big one. We are the blueprint man to personalize it. One thing I had to learn I couldn't carry the burden of my birth father to my daughter. I couldn't, man. I made it such a huge responsibility and my mission to heal Therapy, coaching guys, getting together, having conversations. How can we be different?
Speaker 2:And you figured this out on your own. You pretty much said I need to. I feel like sometimes I want to ask my kids for forgiveness, because when I became a father, I needed therapy and then I spent 10 years in the most miserable time of my life post having that first kid, showing her nothing but trauma, reinforcing the trauma, and all I needed to do was find that healing. Now, granted, I never turned it down. It was not something that was just in my radar. No one offered it to me. I'm older than you are, so those 10 years make a huge difference as an adult in the 90s. You know, those 10 years make a huge difference as an adult in the 90s.
Speaker 3:We don't have those conversations right, there was no better help.
Speaker 1:No online therapy. I barely got into that, you know. So Walk it off. Yeah Right, exactly.
Speaker 2:Put some dirt on it and go figure it out. So all I knew was the way to parent, based on the way I watched myself be parented. But at the same token, I thought I knew better by going oh, I won't do that, because my father did that and there was so much of him and me that I didn't know I didn't recognize until it was too late and past that point. So kudos to you for saying recognizing. Hey, I don't want to pass this on to my children. Can I speak to that?
Speaker 3:Asking the children for forgiveness. I did that and I would say it changed our relationship and to the extent that I talked to them and I told them, I was like, look, when your mom and I were going through it, you were getting the full swath of all of our trauma. Yeah, yeah, you know, and without any context, I had to be the one, in our case, to acknowledge one band, one sound. So, whatever their mother told them I had to go with. Then I had to be the bad guy, unfortunately. But I will say this that the relationship changed so much when I came to them and said, hey, I was not a great dad during this time frame. I was not able to be available to you emotionally, I was grouchy, I was dismissive, I was, you know, I was neglectful to your emotional needs for this period of time and that was wrong. And so I recognize that that damaged the relationship and I understand why you would be reluctant to want to talk to me, because I don't deserve that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, nothing brings closeness and oneness more than vulnerability. Yeah Right, oh, so good. And so I have this thing I do with my daughter right Almost like every month. Yeah, we ask each other what can we do? What can I do to be a better dad?
Speaker 2:I love that so much. And then she's like what can I do to be a better daughter?
Speaker 1:We have such a deep connection, like relationship.
Speaker 2:It's amazing, right we like we'll sit down and talk and play dominoes and cards for hours.
Speaker 1:You're raising a real little haitian right, exactly like playing dominoes, yep yep so so. So it's important, man, to have these vulnerable moments where you ask each other, because I can't always see my blind spots right, I'm not always aware Speaking of vulnerability and weakness leads me to my very next question, which is you know communities, they often see or they resist rather vulnerability.
Speaker 2:How can someone, man or woman, initiate conversations about emotional wellness in spaces that label it as weakness?
Speaker 1:That's a tough one. It's a tough one and it's hard to be vulnerable if you don't feel safe, and especially in our communities, we've been taught to believe that vulnerability is a sign of weakness. If I'm having this relationship with you, what's the purpose? Why are we doing this? So seeking to understand foundational dynamics? Why are we doing this? So seeking to understand foundational dynamics? What is this built on? Is it love? Is it responsibilities? Is it compassion? Is it me having a desire to see you grow and prosper? Am I that safe space for you? So all those things really come together and say, okay, well, this is different from what I knew, this is different from what I grew up with. Do my children feel safe coming to me? If you mess up, do I get mad at you or do I get mad at what you did? So your actions are not you. They're not your essence.
Speaker 2:That's not your identity, right? Just something you did Exactly. I heard two things in these milestones which were really powerful yeah, have I forgiven, right? My God, that's a really, really good one. Yeah, and am I creating a safe space for my children or even those around me? Is there another one? Is there a third Purpose? What is the purpose?
Speaker 1:Okay, why are we doing this Right? What do we hope to accomplish? And the why is always always more powerful than than what you're actually doing. I'm doing this because I want to see you grow. I'm doing this because I want to protect you. I want to love you so deeply, Like I'm doing this because it is my responsibility. I've chosen this and so if I've made that choice, I actually have to make sure I take care of every responsibility that comes with that choice. So why are we doing this? So always asking the purpose of every interaction? That way you can actually see them clearly.
Speaker 2:I have one last question for you. The question for you, Mark, is some might interpret your message as placing too much on the individual rather than the systems. Either that was designed to get us where we are or to keep us where we are. So how do you mitigate structural barriers while still empowering personal change?
Speaker 1:Well, you know, like Zoe said earlier, you cannot expect the people who created this system to come save you. The system will always going to be there, right? So if you don't change, you can't create a different system. So I think it's important to actually see the individual aspect of it first, and that way we can actually come together and create a system that works for us. And so one of the reasons why I write or I speak and I do workshops because I want people to be responsible, take ownership of themselves. Right, I'm actually working on the six weeks program. It's called Designing your Superpower Life, the Power of Self-Ownership.
Speaker 1:Even if this system was different, if you're not in a mental space to actually understand the system and receive it, it won't change for you. And so I think it's important to look at the individual aspect of it and say you know what? I'm choosing to change my household. I'm choosing to change me. It has start small, yeah, so we can actually get bigger if we're looking at the bigger space, the bigger picture, right, we cannot change the generations removed.
Speaker 2:If it ever changes, it's designed to be this way, right, right.
Speaker 3:It's functioning the way it was supposed to exactly because you can't.
Speaker 1:You know you, because if well, I'm going to focus on the system, there's always going to be pushback, even if it's unhealthy. So if I want to change the system, I have to get people to change so we can actually create a system that works collectively.
Speaker 2:For us as black folks. That's a great place to end it. Man, how do people find you?
Speaker 1:I am on social media. If you Google my name, Mark Moplazier, M-A-R-K-M-O-M-P-L-E-I-S-I-R, you'll find me everywhere, really, but Instagram, TikTok, YouTube. I have a website called healingvibesorg.
Speaker 2:Thanks immensely, brother, for being here being part of the show all the way from New York. Yes, yes, you know I'm going to pretend you came here just for me.
Speaker 1:I'll take that. I'll take that I shouldn't be dead. Yeah, right, I did, I did. That's exactly what happened. That was the point. Yeah, exactly, and Zole, thank you, brother, for being here, man, thank you for inviting me brother.
Speaker 2:Yeah, appreciate your input, brother.
Speaker 3:Do at reddog underscore Murph. I'm kind of on TikTok right now. I deleted my Facebook account.
Speaker 2:Reddog Murph is also on Instagram Cool Good. So, as you know, traditionally when we end the show, someone has to read the outro notes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's funny.
Speaker 2:Doing an impression, yeah, man. So Mark Moplezier has lost the coin toss again.
Speaker 1:So again two Twice in a row.
Speaker 2:Alright, so we flipped it.
Speaker 1:It looks like Zol's, got it Zol's got it man.
Speaker 2:He volunteered, he's gonna do it and you're gonna do Mbaku From Black Panther. Alright, let's get it bro.
Speaker 3:So my brothers have invited us To Express our. So my brothers have invited us here to express our views on manhood and matters of manhood, and so for this I am grateful, and so we would ask for you, our dear listeners, to please support us all. By following this show. You will leave us a five-star review. Apple podcast. To be fair, we appreciate you tuning in, so we say thank you so much for listening. We'll catch you next week when we'll share conversations, sound rounding, real issues we, as men, deal with every day. It never changes. One thing to know is that manhood matters. We are out.
Speaker 2:We are out, Awesome brother.
Speaker 1:Oh man that was good.
Speaker 3:That was good, that was good. That's my worst act we have watched from the mountains.
Speaker 2:I'm terrible, I'm terrible, I'm terrible, I'm terrible, I'm terrible, I'm terrible, I'm terrible, I'm terrible, I'm terrible, I'm terrible, I'm terrible, I'm terrible, I'm terrible, I'm terrible, I'm terrible, I'm terrible, I'm terrible.
Speaker 2:I'm terrible I hey guys, a quick word. The purpose of this show is to educate and entertain. We love bringing you valuable tools that you can utilize, but this is in no way supposed to be a substitute for any medical advice, legal advice, and we are not therapists. If you are struggling with anything, consult a licensed therapist counselor. But we do send you our love and our strength. And oh, and before I go, this is the most important thing that's happening today. Today is July 28th 2025, when this episode is released, and it's my baby girl's birthday. She turns 10 today and she's so excited. Eva, you are my heart. I love you so much, baby, and I want to take this moment to wish you the happiest birthday of all. Welcome to Double Digits, and I will see you on our date this evening. Love you, baby.
