Why Going Gluten-Free Isn't Always Enough with Kelly Hale

Have you ever wondered why, even after going gluten-free, you still don't feel quite as good as you expected? 

Maybe your digestion isn't where you'd hoped it would be. Maybe stress seems to make everything worse. Or maybe you're wondering if there's another piece of the healing puzzle that no one has talked to you about yet. 

In today's episode of The Gluten-Free Engineer, we're exploring the connection between the nervous system, digestion, and gut health with special guest Kelly Hale. Kelly is a nervous system regulation practitioner, occupational therapist, and founder of Gutsy Brain Movement. Through her own experience with celiac disease and fertility challenges, she discovered that healing often involves more than just removing gluten. 

In our conversation, we discuss how stress impacts digestion, why nervous system regulation matters, and some simple ways to better support your body as you continue your healing journey. 

Connect with Kelly Hale

Kelly is a nervous system regulation practitioner, occupational therapist, and founder of Gutsy Brain Movement. Through her own journey with celiac disease and fertility challenges, she discovered that healing often involves more than just eliminating gluten. While a gluten-free diet is essential for managing celiac disease and gluten intolerance, Kelly teaches that supporting the nervous system through movement and regulation techniques may also play an important role in digestion, stress resilience, and overall well-being. 

Facebook | Instagram | Website 

Check out Kelly's free Facebook Group to learn simple, quick tools to support the health of your Brain+Body+Biome.

Save money, and no more guessing for dinner!  Use code GFE to get 20% off annual membership at thedinnerdaily.com. Plan meals for less than $4/month and save money at the grocery store!

Transcript

Why Gluten-Free Still Feels Hard

Carrie Saunders 0:00

Quick reminder before we get started on this episode. This podcast is based on my personal experiences and isn't medical advice. Have you ever wondered why, even after going gluten-free, you still don't feel quite as good as you expected? Maybe your digestion isn't where you'd hoped it would be. Maybe stress seems to make everything worse. Or maybe you're wondering if there is another piece of the healing puzzle that no one has talked to you about yet. In today's episode, we are exploring the connection between the nervous system, digestion, and gut health with a special guest, Kelly Hale. Kelly is a nervous system practitioner, occupational therapist, and founder of Gutsy Brain Movement. Through her own experience with C Lac disease and fertility challenges, she's discovered that healing often involves more than just removing gluten. In our conversation, we discuss how stress impacts digestion, why nervous system regulation matters, and some simple ways to better support your body as you continue through your healing journey. Let's dive in. Welcome to the Gluten Free Engineer Podcast. I'm your host, Kiri Saunders. In 2011, I was diagnosed with celiac disease, a moment that changed everything. But I was determined not to let it hold me back. With my two engineering degrees, I set out to reverse engineer the gluten-free lifestyle, breaking down recipes, safety tips, travel hacks, and everything in between to rebuild a life I love. Whether you have celiac disease, gluten intolerance, or simply choose to live gluten-free, this podcast is for you. Join me each week as we simplify the gluten-free lifestyle, make it fun, and prove that you don't have to miss out on anything.

Kelly’s Long Road To Diagnosis

Carrie Saunders 1:35

Welcome back to the show. Today I'm excited to welcome Kelly Hale to the podcast. Kelly is a nervous system regulation practitioner, occupational therapist, and founder of Gutsy Brain Movement. Through her own journey with celiac disease and fertility challenges, she's discovered that healing often involves more than just eliminating gluten. While a gluten-free diet is essential for those of us with celiac and gluten intolerance, Kelly teaches that supporting the nervous system through movement and regulation techniques may also play an important role in digestion, stress, resilience, and overall well-being. I'm excited for this conversation because I think many of you will relate and what to wondering I'm gluten-free, but it don't feel completely better. I know I've experienced this recently, and I started doing strength training the past seven months, and my digestive system is so much happier. So I'm super excited to have this conversation today with Kelly. So welcome to the show, Kelly.

SPEAKER_01 2:31

Thank you. I'm honored to be here.

Carrie Saunders 2:33

So, Kelly, I just gave a little overview of what you are and who you, you know, who you serve and how you help people, but could you give just a little bit more details as to how you came about on this journey of helping others with their brain and gut health?

SPEAKER_01 2:46

Sure. So I've had my own journey. Of course, it's a tumultuous journey anytime you enter a gut arena, right? So mine really started in middle school at age 11, having horrible GI issues. And of course, no one could figure anything out. Followed me through high school, college, graduate school, finally got the diagnosis of celiac. And I know a lot of people are like, oh no, that's horrible. And I was just, oh, this is a relief. We can work with this, you know, this isn't cancer. We can affect this lifestyle, daily choices can help with this. And of course, being a wellness practitioner, I also found that I had a lot of tools that I was studying and I wanted to study more to serve the people I serve, but also knowing that it could help me. For example, studying the body ecology diet and really learning how to help heal the gut and other modalities using uh visceral organ work, which is organ exercises. No, our organs aren't lifting weights, but doing things with our organs to help find the ease again. Because actually, we are designed, our bodies are amazing and they're designed to function. That means nourish ourselves, assimilate, digest, and eliminate with ease. But a lot of us have gotten off track. And a lot of us in the celiac community go for years, decades without being diagnosed. And so then, yes, we remove gluten, but it doesn't necessarily heal all the damage, right? So we have to go back in and work on healing, not only physically, but mentally, emotionally, nervous system-wise as well. And so that's really where my work has focused over the years.

Carrie Saunders 4:28

Well, and I love everything you said there, honestly, Kelly, because I can so relate. I wasn't diagnosed until my 30s, and it took until we diagnosed my uh oldest child to get that final confirmation for me. And there is just so much, you know, damage that happened over those 30 years. And on this podcast, I like to encourage people to know that, you know, this isn't the end of the world. This is good. Like I was so relieved when I finally got that diagnosis. I was actually happy because I finally felt not crazy anymore. I'm like, okay, now we can create a plan and figure this out and fix this. So I love how you bring all those components that I love bringing to the podcast because really we can, you know, figure this out and get to a good, healthy, and happy life again.

SPEAKER_01 5:14

Yes. And I think the point is well taken that a lot of people don't get a diagnosis until their children are diagnosed. I mean, I was diagnosed in my 30s as well, and they just didn't have enough information when I was that struggling person in middle school. They didn't have the tools. And then the part about feeling not crazy, I just want to pause there for a second. That is so valid. When I was in college and they're like, oh, you're just stressed, and they gave me the blanket diagnosis of IBS, irritable bowel syndrome. I was like, yeah, it flares when I'm um studying for exams, but it's not just that I'm telling you there's something more going on. And thank goodness I persisted. And thank goodness I stepped out of allopathic traditional medicine. And it was not until I worked with more functional medicine, holistic practitioners, that we got to the root cause.

Advocating For Yourself In Healthcare

Carrie Saunders 6:02

Well, that's a really good point, too, that I also bring home to the podcast is you have to be persistent in your health. And that was that was the thing that finally got me there was being persistent in my health and figuring it out myself, and then finally getting confirmed from a gastroenterologist after we diagnosed, you know, the the oldest. And I feel like a lot of people don't think that they are are allowed to have and have that permission to, you know, push for their own health and for their own health benefits. So I just want to kind of throw that in there because I'm glad you brought it up because it's so important for us to do that.

SPEAKER_01 6:37

We really have to be advocates, and that's a big part in the people I serve, both in my membership community and the people I work with in my signature course about gut health, and even the people I work with one-to-one is you have to become an advocate. And that might mean seeing two or three people, and that might mean, you know, taking fastidious notes and keeping track of things, keeping a log before you go see them. So you have a ton of information to share with them. And sometimes it means firing healthcare providers because they're not taking your needs seriously or they're dismissive. And no one needs that. Everyone's situation is very unique and deserves to have space held for it.

Carrie Saunders 7:16

For sure, for sure. And so I'm glad that you're giving you're on here too, giving permission. And it's not just me saying this. So I know that you help a lot of people with their gut health. And I know that you talk a lot about how diet, you know, many times people think it's diet and supplements help your gut. Um, but I know both of us know that that it's not just that. And I know you take a different approach. Can you explain how organ releases and development movement can support your digestion and overhealth overall health? Because I'm really curious about the what this organ releases is because I've I've not heard of that terminology. I can kind of picture what it might be, but I don't know if I'm right. So I'm gonna be curious

Organ Releases For Digestion Relief

Carrie Saunders 7:56

to find out.

SPEAKER_01 7:57

Yeah, I'd love to talk. I mean, I geek out on this stuff all the time. So organ releases come out of a very unique manual therapy. Manual therapy could be cranial sacral, lymphatic work, myofascial. And the type of manual therapy I do is called integrative manual therapy because I'm gonna layer lymphatic work, I'm gonna layer um cranial work in the same session. But a real hallmark of my training is called visceral organ release or visceral visceral manual therapy. And it's hands-on, gentle, uh, you know, over top of someone's clothing. Um, like just the other day, I was working with a woman that was having a lot of stagnation on the left side of her pelvic bowl, which is where the sigmoid colon is. And that's the last stop on the train before elimination. And so I was doing some work very gently with her. We're getting great results. And yet I need her to do some homework, or I like to call it home play because who wants homework? No one, right? Or home care. So, self-led home care. So I taught her some organ exercises. And then some people can't find a visceral manual therapist. We're kind of hard to find. We're very few and far between. So that's why I teach them virtually in my communities. And they're just very simple positions. Like you might stand, we put the hand on an organ, and then we take one foot forward a little bit, bend the knee. We might lean to the side, we might look up, for example. They're very funky positions. And I always think back to when I was in elementary school and you'd get your photos taken at school and they'd comb your hair the opposite way your mom did. They turn your head, they'd make you look one. It always feels like those funky positions, but we go into those positions and we hold them for six breaths. We hold them for, you know, two minutes. And what we're doing is we're dialing down tension, spasms. A lot of us have spasms because, you know, maybe we had an accidental explode exposure, we were glutened, or maybe even after you've been a year off of gluten, you're still dealing with spasms, it can take a while to get the systems working well again. But doing these exercises, these very simple organ releases helps to dial down spasms, helps to balance the tone of the organs, and it also helps to create spaciousness. So a lot of times people don't realize if your organs are out of position, they're not gonna work as well. Like I was just teaching in my virtual community today about if you have adhesions right where the stomach comes into the first area of the small intestine, it's the shortest part of the small intestine test in the duodenum, then you're not gonna produce digestive enzymes well. So I was teaching them some moves to help open that space and create a natural flow of digestive enzymes. So doing these organ exercises helps everything work well together, helps digestive enzymes, supports the lymphatic system. And I usually start people with just one or two exercises. And then eventually I teach them to go from the esophagus all the way down through the sigmoid. Again, the sigmoid is the last stop on the train before elimination. So doing those exercises, I think what I've noticed through the decades of sharing them, people feel really empowered. There's something horribly helpless about gut issues a lot of times. People try all the meds, they do all the things, and that's for them to discover with their healthcare provider. But they want to feel like there's something they can do. They want to feel like they can do something that doesn't require another medication. And so this is something they can do when they're on medication, or maybe they're not on medication. So organ releases are amazing. And what people also quickly learn is that, oh, wait a second, that kidney being out of position slightly is contributing to my back pain. And at first people go, what is that? But anyone who's menstruated knows that when their uterus swells at that time of the month for menstruation, they have back discomfort because that pressure, that displacement of the uterus is causing some of that back pain. So then people go, oh, yes, I do feel the connection now of organs to structure, biomechanics, but also organ releases for digestion, assimilation, elimination. It helps it happen with greater ease. And they're really just so simple. They're just not very well known. And that's why I'm crazy about sharing them in my communities because I want people to have access.

Carrie Saunders 12:18

That sounds actually really wonderful because we don't really think about where our organs are or what they're doing. You know, they're in our body we trust or hope that they're working. Um, but I do know that when my intestines are inflamed from a gluten exposure or soy, I also have soy issues, that you know, it can cause other things to hurt. You know, it can it can cause so much discomfort. And it's kind of hard to even describe to somebody who's not celiac or not doesn't have a gluten intolerance as to how this feels. Like, you know, sometimes it feels like there's hot coals like sitting inside my abdomen, you know, and so it's kind of interesting to think about the fact that we could um manipulate and try to help our organs, you know, go back to where they're supposed to be and kind of calm down and chill out so that they can work a bit better.

SPEAKER_01 13:10

Yes, absolutely. And they're just so simple and so easy.

Developmental Movement For Regulation

SPEAKER_01 13:14

And you also asked about developmental movement. So, you know, that was the organ exercise side. And again, I have this picture, my eight-year-old mind, of organs lifting weights, but it's just so much simpler than that. And even people who are very limited with movement can access organ releases. Now, the developmental movement side of things, to get back to that part of your question, that is earliest development. And so a lot of people talk about nervous system regulation, and I'm so grateful they are because it's opened up the conversations. It's become a household word. But a lot of times it's do these breathing exercises, and that can be all well and good unless you're in fight, flight freeze, then breathing exercises can cause you to go further into survival mode. But what I do actually with uh nervous system regulations go back to earliest development. We don't come into the world as babies knowing how to move. We have to go through reflex movements to lay down the scaffolding. We have to go through movements on our back, turning, rolling, looking with our head so that we can get to a place where the next level comes where we can tripod and then crawl and so forth. So there are certain movements. One of my favorite for the pelvic bowl and for digestion and elimination, it's tied to bowel and bladder continence because nobody talks about this except for me. You can have major issues with bowel continence. Everybody talks about bladder continence, and that's important. But I work with a ton of high-functioning people, professionals out in the world that are full of anxiety because they have bowel continence issues. It's a real thing. But one of the best developmental movements for that is something called the spinal perez movement. And yes, it's tied to spinal health, but it's tied to the whole trunk. It's tied to detoxification and elimination. And it's a very simple, excuse me, a very simple movement where we make goalpost arms, right? And we stick our head forward, our chest forward, everything I would tell you not to do as a Pilates practitioner and postural coach. Um, we arch our back and we go into this position after we do a little bit of side of spine stimulation. And it helps the nervous system become re-educated around that particular developmental movement. And it's part of reinforming, re-educating or recalibrating the nervous system so that pelvic floor, digestion, um, bladder, bowel can work with ease. Now, most of us in midlife, we moved through those developmental movements. We did the work, we laid the scaffolding, but then life, stress, trauma, illness, car accidents happen, and it gets tripped up and it's not working in the background as it should. It's like we constantly trip over it. So a lot of these moves, people do them, and I mean, it's amazing. They'll say, Oh my gosh, I felt so much more ease. I felt so much more release. And I am delighted because they're just so simple. And then I share different variations of how

Shame, Poop Talk, And Emotional Healing

SPEAKER_01 16:12

to use them and we put them together in flow. So we might do that with an organ exercise and then a lip exercise, lymphatic exercise, so that people can get things going, supporting. And it can take five minutes or less. It's really so simple.

Carrie Saunders 16:27

That sounds wonderful because I do know, you know, I've been gluten-free since I think it was 2011 when we discovered I had celiac. And I still have, you know, bowel mobility issues, you know, whether it's too quickly or too slowly. You know, it's I still have issues with it. And I'm sure that it's one, because of 30 some years of damage. Um, but also it sounds like it may be, you know, potentially some things you're talking about here where things just aren't working or in place anymore, or they're, you know, just not right anymore. And we just need to retrain them to be back to their natural uh state of being so that things can work properly.

SPEAKER_01 17:07

Um yeah, it is so fascinating. And thank you for bringing up, you know, the vowel issue. People aren't talking about it. And again, I'm I'm on a mission to normalize pooping. And, you know, when people come to see me, I'm an occupational therapist. I'm gonna ask about all the different bodily functions. And in my groups, too, we talk about it. The whole idea is people don't talk about it, but we need to. And so I make it fun. I have collette the colon from the iHeart Guts. I love their stuffed organs. I have everybody brings me like these little squishy poop emoji squishies. Um, and what I say to people to be an icebreaker, to bring this conversation to the forefront is I always kind of test the waters with how's elimination going for you? Because elimination is disarming, right? It's not bowel movement, what's your stool like, how's your pooping, but we get there eventually. How's elimination going? They go, oh, and so we start to talk about it. And I even have uh embarrassment from inside out too. We have the plushie embarrassment because we want to talk about it and say this is a safe space, just like your podcast is a safe space. We need more wonderful opportunities like this to bring up the conversation. And so, just again, even when I'm virtual, I'll show people these different plushies and it just makes it fun. And it makes it, again, they have to feel safe. So we'll do a lot of things with our nervous system to bring about safety. We'll do things that get them out of survival mode, then we'll talk about it. And then we'll go to that place where we can really get them to talk about the details. And in the community sense, when they hear other people talking about it, or if someone's not yet comfortable, I would say to my group, I know my mom told me not to talk bathroom talk too. So if you have a question that you don't want to ask in front of the group, send it to me, email it, message it to me. I'll bring it anonymous anonymously to the group, but everyone becomes empowered when you ask that question. Because A, they're like, wow, I'm not the only person having issues with elimination, bowel movements, urgency. And B, I now have the discussion opened and I'm more comfortable asking a question, and I now have some ideas on how to support myself through that challenge.

Carrie Saunders 19:22

Well, and I feel like, you know, your empowerment to let people ask these questions is gold because I do remember I was in high school and um I think it was in my church youth group, and there was a doctor there, you know, one of the adults was a doctor, and I remember asking him, and people looked at me like I was crazy. I asked him about my poop because I didn't understand, for example, why my poop floated, right? Now I now I know I know because I had celiac and I wasn't digesting all the fats correctly. So they were just coming right out the other end, right? And that's why it floated. You know, I asked him about colors of it. Like I was curious about, you know, what was coming out the other end because I knew instinctively that, you know, that is an indication of how well things are or are not working. So I think the fact that you are helping people learn to talk about their elimination or their poop or, you know, whatever words they want to use for it is very empowering and very, really necessary because it really shouldn't be a topic we are afraid to talk about.

SPEAKER_01 20:25

Right. Thank you for that acknowledgement. You know, there's a story, um, I call it my poop at the fan moment uh from middle school that I go back to often. It's why I do what I do because I never want someone else to feel the shame and embarrassment. I'll condense the story, but at that stage, I was dealing with horribly limiting constipation. And then at other times I was dealing with the opposite end of it, as I mentioned in college and whatnot. But I one summer, you know, middle school, just finished sixth grade. I was, I didn't know many people in my middle school because I came from a different school. And um, I really wanted to fit in, don't we all? In middle school, right? And so one hot summer sticky day, this girl, let's call her Polly, she called and invited me to play tennis. And I was like, yes. I mean, Polly was kind of like in that group of girls that I wanted to be in with. And I said, Yeah, never mind. I'd never picked up a tennis ricket. I was like, sure, put down the phone. Let me talk to my mom about getting me there. I went in to talk to my mom and she's like, Oh no, sweetie, you can't, you can't go. I'm like, why not? She's like, you just took us a pository for that unrelenting constipation like an hour ago. You can't go anywhere until things get moving. And I was crushed. And my mom said, just tell Polly that you're not feeling well. Well, I felt like I had just expressed excitement. If I tell her I'm not feeling well, she's not gonna believe me. And I honestly wanted to be able to talk to someone about this. And I thought she was, you know, this was an extension of friendship being given. And so I told Polly that I couldn't go and why. And after an awkward pause, she kind of laughed in that middle school girl way and said, Okay, you know, ooh, maybe another day. And I was like, Okay, great. And so the summer went on and we did other things. It wasn't tennis. And then a few months into school, one day I'm walking down the hall. I can still kind of feel and smell that day. I heard people snickering and laughing and people standing by lockers and looking at me. And I was like, what is going on? And then I walked past a group of girls and I heard them say, There goes Kelly. She has to stick things up her butt to go poo. And I was devastated. I ran down the hall. I hid in the bathroom, crying. It was just the most devastating situation. And I really in that moment was like, I shouldn't be embarrassed. Like, I love that you were brave enough to ask that doctor in your youth group. Um, I shouldn't have been embarrassed. I was horrified. I didn't tell anyone. I was just devastated. And, you know, time goes on and this kind of faded away. But it really made me realize that we need to support people at all stages of life, especially women, because I think guys would deal with this differently. It's just kind of the way they're wired, maybe not all, but we need to support women in moving away from shame and embarrassment about their bodies and bodily functions. And so I always laugh about my middle school me. She would have been so embarrassed to grow up to learn that to learn that I grew up to become the poop whisperer, because that's what people call me. I help them go with ease. And I'm honored by that title. And so I think she'd be horrified. But I also think it's so weird. Sometimes I think, I wonder what happened to Polly. And I always joke, wherever Polly is, I hope she's regular, you know? I hope she grew beyond sort of that mean girl moment that she had and that she's regular wherever she's at. And when I've shared this in the presentation, people were like, I had a poopy Polly too. So I think we all have those kinds of experiences that cause us to lay down shame. And that's why I'm so intent on the emotional processing piece of when someone gets a GI diagnosis, whether it's celiac or Crohn's or ulcerative colitis or CBU or whatever it is, you got to do the emotional processing because otherwise you're just going to keep bumping up against it. And emotional processing, yes, there's talk therapy, and that can be great, but sometimes you have to move through it. And that's where we bring those developmental movements to move out of survival and then to find the safe space. So we always want to find that safety and come back to that. And I tell people to do a simple tool that I can share with your audience if you like before they go into the doctor's office. Just do it in your car so that then you're ready because you're like, what are they going to tell me now? What's the next layer? Or is this new provider going to dismiss me like the other ones have? You know, so it's there's a lot there. And a lot of us that started with issues early in life when we didn't know who we were, we didn't know how to navigate the world and people, it there's a lot of stuff there to unpack.

Carrie Saunders 25:09

Yes, I completely agree. And uh we talk a lot about, you know, emotional and mental health on here because it, I mean, one of my episodes is about grief. I mean, some people go through grief when they learn that they have celiac or can't eat gluten because it's it's

A Quick Tapping Tool For Anxiety

Carrie Saunders 25:25

they're changing part of their lives, right? And I would love to have you um explain that tool that you do before um going into the doctor. I think that would be very helpful for everybody. So go ahead and share that if you'd like.

SPEAKER_01 25:35

Sure, I'd love to. And it's easy to do without seeing it too. But one thing really quick about the grief. I'm currently in the middle of teaching an amazing cohort of people in my gut feeling reset course. And we have a QA, and I asked them if they can't come, please submit your questions. And I'm always blown away by the great questions. I love questions, it helps everyone grow. And this one question, she's like, I'm not sure if this is appropriate, but I'm bumping into a lot of grief. And I was like, oh my goodness, this is so appropriate. And when you have GI issues, there can be a lot of grief. And what GI issues limit to also causing you limitations, not only with what you eat, but with maybe what you can do in the world, um, can cause a lot of grief too. So there's a lot there. And I want to acknowledge that and make sure people get support for that. And there's a hands-on tool I can share for that. But first to go back to your question. So for the anxiety piece, the fear piece, there's something called the fear paralysis reflex. It's very innate. It's tied to the startle reflex. We should actually work through this, but have it in the background so that if you know the saber-toothed tiger comes along, we will get startled enough to get out of dodge, right? But the fear paralysis reflex can be soothed and supported. I'm going to teach you the quickie version. There's a whole version that goes from um the upper trunk down to the bottoms of the feet, but you can get a lot of mileage out of this one. You would place one hand over your breastbone so that bone right there beneath your collarbones. The other hand goes on top. We're going to do a gentle tapping in a cha-cha rhythm. Don't worry, you don't have to be a musician or a dancer. I'll talk you through it. The bottom hand stays gently pressed onto your breastbone. The top hand is lightly going to tap and open one, two, one, two, three, and then pause, take a deep breath in, and exhale, and again, one, two, one, two, three, pause, deep breath in, and exhale. We're just going to do three reps of this. So this will be the last time. One, two, one, two, three, pause, deep breath in. And then you can just do the breastbone one, or you could repeat that at the opposite upper arm. You make an X across your trunk and your hands slide down from your shoulder about a third of the way down. And you would repeat that one, two, one, two, three there. I like to have people for the quickie version, they can just do the breastbone, but if they can fit in the upper arm, this is important because the upper arm represents control. And when you have a diagnosis of the GI type, especially celiac, you can feel a lack of control. You know, my daughter has been in the car with me. She's a teenager, so I hear about it in all the fun ways. But I'm like, I know you got to get to wherever I'm taking you, but we're gonna have to take a sidetrack. I have got to get to the bathroom right now. There's some urgency. And if I don't go, we're gonna have a problem. And I actually talked very openly with her about that, much to her dismay. Because I'm like, someday, if you're some, if you're with someone who's dealing with this, I want your compassion to be deepened, right? And we talk about pelvic floor and pooping. I mean, it drives her crazy. But sometimes if I'm worried, like we're on a trip or traveling, and I'm concerned about eating because I might have to go and there's no bathroom, I will do that fear paralysis tapping uh as a passenger, obviously not driving. Or I'm getting ready to go to a doctor's appointment and I am trying out a new doctor and I'm not sure what they'll be like, or I'm getting ready to go to an appointment and it's, you know, a lot of people fear the dentist. So that's a great one to do before they get out of the car. They're waiting in the waiting room, they're waiting forever, it's taking longer. Doing that will dial down fear. It helps to get you out of fight, flight freeze, or survival mode. It's great for anxiety. So it's a really wonderful tool. Let's say someone's having a procedure, you know, maybe they're having one of those colonoscopies again or a more invasive GI test that a lot of us with celiac have had to endure. Do that before, during, if you have, you know, if you're awake for it, and then after. So it's just a great tool to have. It's so easy, it's free. You can do it anytime. And I have videos um that people could get to if they need to see a visual, but it's pretty easy to kind of just go through it, even with audio.

Carrie Saunders 30:10

Well, and it reminds me of, you know, when you have a baby, you know, you tend to pat them in a rhythmic way. So I'm curious, do you think that it relates some to infancy and how our you know parents would, you know, try to console us and to pat us and to make us feel better?

SPEAKER_01 30:27

Oh my gosh, I love this question, Carrie. And I've never gotten this in all the nervous system podcasts I've been on and discussions about nervous system. Yes. To that point, I have some people, and I say this with kindness, they're overachievers, type A. They'll come in and we'll review it. Or um, we're in our group together, and I can see they're kind of pounding. And I'm like, I know you want to do your best, but do this as if you're working with an infant or a two-year-old. So very gentle like that. The nervous system needs that tactile input. You're absolutely right. That's great noticing. And we just want to gently do that tapping because it's very soothing, it's very organizing. Um, when you look at a child, an infant and a toddler who is getting all the nervous system support they need, they're being held, they're being carried, they're being hugged, they are being soothed, they need that tactile input. And the nervous system also loves rhythm. So that cha-cha piece, now that's a very specific rhythm, but just this morning I was on the floor moving with my membership group, and we were doing a rocking motion that is so organizing and soothing to the nervous system. And we did that before we went into a four-point bird dog exercise. Or if someone couldn't bear the weight bearing on their wrists and arms any longer, because maybe they're just getting there, they're in process, then they would do that rocking motion to give their wrists a break. But really, what we're doing is we're nourishing the nervous system on such a deep level.

Carrie Saunders 31:55

I don't know why it just reminded me of like, you know, calming down a baby or something. So I was wondering if it was related to that.

SPEAKER_01 32:02

Yeah, that's a great insight.

Lymphatic Support For Gut Health

Carrie Saunders 32:04

So then I know that the lymphatic system also affects your gut health. So can you explain a little bit more about that? You've kind of touched on you do lymphatic work as well. And I've and I've done some lymphatic releases. I've I've learned some from some people who do that type of thing. So I'm curious your perspective on it and how that can help us with our gut health and our GI tract.

SPEAKER_01 32:26

Oh my goodness, yes, I love this too. So the lymphatic system, we have a lot of nodules or nodes of the lymph system in our pelvic bowl, in our gut, in our inguinal canal, right there, kind of at the hip in the pelvic bowl area. And the challenge is that the lymphatic system does not have a pump. The heart has a pump, but the lymphatic system doesn't. And it gets very sluggish. And so in my programs, I teach different techniques for lymphatic drainage. Some of the simplest ways you can do is the dry brushing, always brushing back towards the heart. Um, the rebounders, if someone can tolerate being on a mini trampoline, a good quality one. And then there are positional releases. As a lymphatic drainage therapist, there's different methods of lymphatic drainage and the voter technique, and all those are great. The type that I'm trained in is positional release. So just today I was teaching people exercises where you position yourselves with um blankets underneath the tushy area, underneath your buttock area, not your low back, and you bend one knee, the other knee straight. That's going to stimulate lymphatic flow in the pelvic bowl, the lower side, whichever knee is bent, that side's releasing, and then the other side. So it's so simple. You just go into these release positions and people will tune in. And the more they do it, they start to feel the relaxation and the release, but it's stimulating the lymphatic system. The lymph is how we deal with immune or with our immune system, supports our immune system and how we deal with toxins. Well, the pelvic bowl is the toxic wasteland, right? And if someone's dealing with constipation, they're not moving toxins through. That is not healthy for our immune system. So if we can get in there and do some lymphatic work, it's going to support it. And if they're dealing with the other end, if they're dealing with diarrhea or just inconsistent elimination, they definitely want to do lymphatic work because it keeps things uh moving well. It keeps things supported from an immune perspective. And it's great for energy. It's just people that feel sluggish, we're just talking about allergies before we started, I think, and humidity. And I love the immune work for this time of year because the barometric pressure makes our lymphatic system even more challenged. It's already challenged enough without a pump. But when you start doing these things, it's so easy. And it's again, all I was using with them today were towels, blankets, and a roller if they had it. But if they didn't have a roller, I was like, just grab an extra blanket. And we just did these positional releases. It's so easy.

Carrie Saunders 34:59

Is does there happen to be any of the positional releases you're talking about that would be like a quick one, kind of like the one across our chest that we could uh teach the listeners in case they want to, you know, just try out one of the simple ones?

SPEAKER_01 35:11

Oh, sure. One of my favorite lymphatic drainage exercises, I think I can talk through pretty well. The positional ones are kind of hard to show because you have to see them. This one's a little bit more active. You take one hand and you put it on the top of your head, the other arm is resting beside you, and you're gonna bring the other, the arm that's beside you, that shoulder back and forth very quickly and sort of an oscillatory way. And it's just super simple. You do this 10 times, it's quick, and then you switch to the other side. And there are other layers to that, but if you start with that, you could do it seated or standing. That's what we call a lymphatic load tool. So we want to try to get, and that's gonna work more with the upper trunk area, but a lot of people really benefit from that. And then when we add some of the positional releases to that, coupled with this one with the arm on the head, it's just going to really amp up the lymphatic system. I mean, in my mind, we brush our teeth every day. We should be supporting our lymphatic system every day. Now, I know people think I'm a nut about that, but if we can do this and prevent things from becoming stagnant and running into issues, why not? Right.

Carrie Saunders 36:26

Well, and as you're talking, I'm thinking, you know, why we need to do this now is more likely because we work sitting down. We're not the moving type of working like we used to, you know, be, you know, hundreds of years ago, where we're hunting and gathering and moving all the time. So the fact that we sit down all the time, it's very likely. I'm assuming you would probably agree with me that that's causing part of this, if not most of the stagnation of our lymphatic system.

SPEAKER_01 36:54

Absolutely. I mean, sitting is the new smoking that came out maybe 15 years ago, and I couldn't agree more. I'm grateful I don't sit too much in my work, but sometimes I am when I'm doing a lot of writing and whatnot. So I'll get up and do one of these exercises or go onto a positional release for the lymphatic system as a movement break, as a, you know, stagnant moving out of stagnation break. And so definitely, and you know, people will say, Well, does walking with swinging my arms does that help the lymphatic system? It does, but you really kind of need to go into specific releases or the gentle movement exercise I just showed with one hand on top of the head, um, or get on a mini rebounder or do the lymphatic brushing. It's, you know, you need to, the lymph is very superficial. It's not super deep. Um, and when you're going on something like a walk, it will stimulate lymph somewhat, so much more than sitting at a desk. But if you're dealing with lymphatic issues or something as far um over there as lymph and you definitely want to get a little more specific. So, yes, you and and sitting does cause it all to kind of pool. So getting up and moving a little bit will definitely help. But then when you want to get really lymphatically empowered, you want to definitely get specific with your lymph

Don’t Give Up On Healing

SPEAKER_01 38:08

exercises.

Carrie Saunders 38:09

So I just love like all the different perspectives you've brought today so far to us. And I'm just curious before we like wrap up and talk about like the you know, the free thing that you have for the audience, is there anything else you want to tell us about, you know, gut health or celiac or gluten and how to support that? You know, anything else on your mind that you'd love to share with us?

SPEAKER_01 38:32

Oh, goodness. I think the key thing is don't give up. You know, there are some people that have tried so much and they're like, well, and and you know, we have that. We have celiac, we have uh sensitive, we have intolerant, then we have full on celiac, which is autoimmune. And so sometimes people, unless they get the full diagnosis of celiac, they're not going to commit, but they're somewhere on that range, and they say, Well, I don't feel anything after two or three months of removing gluten. It used to be after three to six months, you'd feel a difference, but now it can take a lot longer. And then the other thing is the key thing is so you removed the offender, but have you gone in and done the cleanup? Have you soothed and healed the gut tissue? Those of us dealing with gut diagnoses like celiac and others, the gut tissue is raw. It is, I think I heard one time it described as someone talked about having shag carpeting that got cut. So, you know, the villi in there are not showing up in the way they should. So you need to soothe and heal the gut, and you need to soothe and heal the emotions. So I have a framework that I'll just throw out there. It's called opener. It's opening pathways of elimination. So we want that ease. The organ exercises we talked about are great for that. The developmental movements, walking's great for that, hip swings are great just to stimulate the iliacus, which is tied to the intestines. So opening pathways of elimination, nervous system and emotional regulation. Don't let anyone tell you that there's nothing that you need to do for emotional healing or nervous system, because if you don't do that, you're gonna always feel like you're bumping into something, like you take two steps forward, three steps back. So, my invitation, my hope for everyone is to take a very well-rounded, holistic approach to this healing process because it can be done. I'm proof of it. You are, it doesn't mean we still don't have bumps in the road, but when you become empowered with tools, it definitely will help you um feel like you have something to go back to when those bumps arise.

Carrie Saunders 40:37

I can't agree more. And just really understanding, you know, having our audience understand that they're not alone. Um, you can heal, you can have a joyful life, you know, you can take all the positives of, you know, wherever you are on the gluten-free spectrum and for the need of it. And you really can have a much better and much, you know, great life, you know, rather than being miserable while you're on it.

SPEAKER_01 41:02

Exactly. A full life and one perspective I share, you know, people like, oh, I'm so sorry you have celiac, that's horrible. I'm like, actually, no, I find it empowering. It's an autoimmune disease. And if I hadn't found out about it, I probably would have been one of those people. The stats vary about 40 to 50% of people with one autoimmune disorder develop a second. And if I hadn't found that, I probably would have gone along a path developing other autoimmune situations and not knowing, right? So to me, this gets me more motivation to really take care of my immune system, to really take care of myself so that I don't go down an inflammatory path so I can live an active, joyful life. So I think it's a mindset thing. And I know you've got that too, Carrie, where we find it empowering. So that's just my hope for others. And it doesn't come right away. It can take some time, and that's okay. But lean into the empowerment if you can.

Carrie Saunders 41:56

I totally agree. And I love that you have reinforced that on our podcast because it can take time, but you can feel empowered even with a celiac diagnosis or just needing to be gluten-free for other reasons.

Free Community, Sharing, And Closing

Carrie Saunders 42:09

So, Kelly, I know you have a wonderful freebie for us, like your free Facebook group. Uh, would you tell us a little bit more about that? And we will be sure to put the link in the show notes too. But you're welcome to say the link as well.

SPEAKER_01 42:21

Sure. Thank you so much. So my free Facebook group is very active, very fun. Yes, we talk about poop there. You don't have to if you join, but I will have different conversations that I start there. And the reason I like the free Facebook group is because that's a place, a safe space to ask questions. You can send them to me via direct message. And then I go every Monday, I go live at noon Eastern time for Brain Body Biome Inspo. I'm teaching something that connects you to your brain, your body, your biome, or connects all of them at once. These are those simple tools. They can take three minutes or less. Sometimes, like yesterday, I gave a three-step process, and it was um prompted by someone who had a question. So these Monday lives are there to serve you and the questions that you have. And we save them under guides, of course. So you have all this content you can go to with tools. And then you can ask questions, and it's just a really lovely group of people. Everyone's on a journey with their health, and they're all there to learn and grow, and they're super supportive of other people. And it's nervous system regulation with Kelly Hale. I tried to put gut in brain, but it was just too long. So if you just go to nervous system regulation with Kelly Hale and it's a Facebook group, of course, per typical. There's some questions to join. And then once you're in there, you'll see that we talk about the brain, the body, and the biome and how they connect. So we'd love to see you in there. It's a fun group.

Carrie Saunders 43:49

Kelly, I am so glad to have you on the podcast today. It's so refreshing to talk to another celiac because you get it and you understand it. You know, I I should have been diagnosed as an infant, but I wasn't, you know, you know, things like this. It's it's just, you know, kind of crazy. And I want to more normalize for others to know that sometimes the diagnosis can be long and you have to really advocate for yourself. But there is joy, there is happiness, there is a wonderful life after diagnosis or after, you know, the diagnosis of needing to be gluten-free for other reasons. So thank you so much, Kelly, for being on our podcast today and sharing your wealth of information as well as you know, being like one of us and you know, making us all feel a bit more normal.

SPEAKER_01 44:36

Sure. It's my pleasure. And thank you for doing what you're doing for the celiac community and others with digestive issues. It's such a gift.

Carrie Saunders 44:45

Thanks, Kelly. So glad to have you. Thank you. Thank you so much for joining me and Kelly for today's conversation. I hope this episode gives you a fresh perspective on the healing journey after going gluten-free. While removing gluten is essential for those of us with celiac and gluten intolerance. Kelly reminds us that there may be other pieces of the puzzle worth exploring, including nervous system regulation, movement, emotional well-being, and learning to listen to what our bodies are trying to tell us. If you'd like to connect with Kelly and learn more about her work, she has a free Facebook group community called Nervous System Regulation with Kelly Hale, where she shares simple tools to support the health of your brain, your body, and your biome. And you can find the link in today's show notes. If you found this episode helpful, I'd love if you'd share it with a friend who may be wondering why they still don't feel their best even after going gluten-free. And don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode of the Gluten Free Engineer. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Gluten Free Engineer. If you found value in this story, please share it with someone who might need encouragement on their own gluten-free journey. For more tips, recipes, resources, and even links to my YouTube channel, head on over to theglutenfreengineer.com. It's your one-stop hub to make gluten-free living simple, fun, and full of flavor. And don't forget to subscribe so you never miss out on an episode. And we will see you next week. The Gluten Free Engineer Podcast is for informational and entertainment purposes only. I share my personal experiences and stories about living with celiac disease and navigating a gluten free lifestyle. This podcast does not provide medical advice. Always consult with a qualified healthcare professional for medical questions, concerns, or advice specific to your health.