The Wise Mind Happy Hour
Two therapists musing about the idea of an inner wise mind and how to connect with this psychic space in different contexts.
The Wise Mind Happy Hour
Wise Mind In Our Own Lives: Anger, Cults, and the Art of Gift Giving
Ever found yourself grappling with the unsettling sensation of situational anger, like being left standing when your table at a restaurant is suddenly occupied by someone else? We kick off this episode of Wise Mind Happy Hour by unraveling such everyday emotional dilemmas and the delicate art of maintaining boundaries without losing our cool.
Next, we cross the bridge from personal to societal as we venture into the world of falconry and the intricate dynamics of documentaries like "Wild Wild Country."
The episode rounds out with a thoughtful examination of art and gift-giving, where we ponder the essence of meaningful experiences and the legacy we leave behind. Does the perfect gift lie in something we desire yet hesitate to buy for ourselves?
- featuring music by blanket forts -
so welcome to the wise mind happy hour podcast welcome yeah, well, today we want to talk a little bit about the wise mind, of course, but, like, how specifically we each use the wise mind in our practices today? Yes, because it's, you know, it's one of those like core concepts that you're gonna make your own in your group therapy work, in your individual therapy work and, like, yeah, use your own lingo with it too. Like I know, I interchange a few words, like for wise mind. I'll be curious what you think about that the plot thickens.
Speaker 1:What I mean, what? I don't even know what you're. I'm excited, Basically, like.
Speaker 2:I use the terms like self, like in IFS, the like capital S self.
Speaker 1:So IFS internal family systems, internal family systems.
Speaker 2:Yeah so self, wise mind and actually self-worth. I use kind of interchangeably which those don't even like grammatically agree totally Right. I use kind of interchangeably which those don't even like grammatically agree totally. But to me it's like the self, that deeper self is the wise mind, is like the seat of self-worth, it's okay, and also is like the seat of values. I would say it's like this core, center, center, and I'm kind of I think I've noticed I'll like adapt the language to like what I know the clients like. Orientation to the concept is like sometimes someone who's a little more spiritual. I'll say like that deeper self, that higher self. For some other people I'll just say your self-worth, like people who really resonate with that concept, concept of self-worth being an internal experience An internal, yeah, totally Of that Brene Brown loving self owning story.
Speaker 1:That is the okay. Yes, exactly that's your inner wisdom is the ability to contact that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that seed of self-worth, like the wise part of you. That's also like loving and accepting and curious and open. But what about you? I'm curious.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I think I've transitioned into more of the act lens, like the acceptance and commitment therapy where, like, the wise place is that ability to have that inner experience, whatever those private events are that are coming up, and recognize that I can still experience those and commit to values.
Speaker 1:Right, like you just brought up, like values, and those values are so personal to me, they're so important to me and we stray from them all the time, like certainly, but like that wise place is really where I can be, like no, this is a painful decision for me to make, and because it's like value and important to me, like that is really wisdom, because then it's like, and so much comes from that, like when we can commit to those values, we build our resiliency, not controlled by those private events, the private events being the thoughts, the fear, the anxiety, the memories, the trauma that we feel like have taken us in different places and then we can't get any distance from them. So that ability to be like you know, I actually say psychologically flexible, that psychological flexibility to me is like that, really that wise place.
Speaker 2:Well, that's so true, that's almost like that exact place. Right of psychological flexibility is synonymous with wise mind, because it's like, and the idea being, I'd be curious how you'd work this if you private events right anything internal? Oh, sorry, did I wrestle my mic? Okay, um, I like I touch my.
Speaker 1:Are you wrestling your mic?
Speaker 2:is this turned into a?
Speaker 1:wwe part of the the podcast. Just like, punch my mic up.
Speaker 2:Um is our first guest, hulk hogan I will, though, like a lot of times, like almost like in a youth pastor kind of way, like put my hand to my heart. I noticed that, yeah well, you use your hands a lot, which is like almost like in a youth pastor, kind of way, like put my hand to my heart.
Speaker 1:I notice that, yeah well, you use your hands a lot, which is nice yeah, I like that, you do like I like it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's nice that you went for the heart on that yeah, well, with self-compassion, I'll do that or with wise mind often I'll tell someone like to relax their body, close their eyes and put their hand on their heart. It's like what do you get when you listen in there? What do you get right?
Speaker 1:but um but psychological flexibility it's like the private events.
Speaker 2:If you can like, expand and make space for any reaction you have, any feeling, any thought that comes up in an experience like, almost like making the space for it instead of trying to escape it, right, then you get into that natural place within. That's wise, you're flexible, right? It's like I can feel embarrassed, feel it, yes, and not have to leave this moment if I can just expand around the feeling.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Then I can let my true self, my values, what's really important to me, guide what I do here, instead of an escape move, yes, which is like I like. I like that way of getting it, the concept of wise man, because, I will say, dbt can sometimes be a little more vague, even though they have the uh, what do you call it?
Speaker 1:the venn diagram?
Speaker 2:yes the circles yeah, it's like sometimes really opening to both rational and emotion mind can be confusing, to like the average person it can, and I think sometimes it can be a little bit oversimplified.
Speaker 1:And what I like about ACT is that idea with an act of, like you know, functional contextualism. So psychological flexibility depends on, like, the context that it's in, right, and so it's like. I remember an ACT practitioner describing it as like, when we look at certain like CBT things or like you know, it's almost like a 2D model. When you think about what's coming up for you in context, it's almost like a 2D model. When you think about what's coming up for you in context, it almost like creates a 3D model. It's almost like a different way of looking at it, because you're actually being like, oh, this makes sense, why I want to move away from my values, given the contextual things that are happening around me, right, because that behavior, as much as I logically or rationally, whatever, know that it's not effective for me, given a context, that has served a purpose like, yeah, I'm going to continue to do this behavior because I don't want to feel those feelings in these contexts, it actually has protected me, right? So I like that. It's a little bit more to me.
Speaker 1:I feel like it challenges us and also gives us a lot more room to be less judgmental about when we work with clients, or even ourselves about, like, why do I keep doing this behavior? I don't, I know it's not right and it's like, yeah, but put yourself like, let's put it into context. This behavior allows you to not feel anxiety, it allows you to not access memories of trauma. Like that makes sense why you would do that behavior. We know it's not value aligned for you. We're going to continue to work on that, but like let's also like give it its due, almost. But yeah, but I mean the venn diagram, though I will say and you know, in the work that I currently do and have done for years and I'm sure, same thing when we were in groups together people really love the, the, the and statements told like people like that's like love, that it couldn't be a simpler concept.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's huge for people.
Speaker 1:Exactly yeah.
Speaker 1:So what we're referring to is like that idea that a lot of times we kind of like yeah, but our experience so you know that classic example in group, when we're working with people or in therapy like, yeah, I've made a lot of progress, right, but I still feel like shit, yeah, and so what we want to do is we want to have people.
Speaker 1:If we think about it in a wise-minded way, if we replace that, but with an and right, it's like yeah, I've made a lot of progress in treatment and I'm still struggling, right, I still feel like shit, okay, both things are true. We're holding that dialectic within DBT, right, it's not either. Or it's yes, and which is something that people will always say oh, I was in improv class and I was in my acting class, and we do yeah and and um, which is great, right, like, that's a great example of it, but it's like that there's more to it that we can add onto it. And and like. So it's not either the emotional or the rational. It's like the wise mind is holding both, even if they seem opposite.
Speaker 2:So people really love the and statements yeah they're powerful I even, like will try to remind myself in session as a client's like sharing with me, like where they need a dialectic. It's one of the things I bring up the most in like that concrete, clinical way where it's like we need something to bridge where you are Cause I see you hanging, like I feel really guilty about this thing, but I didn't do anything wrong. Is that going back and forth, helping you? And often no, it's like creating like a rumination circle, because it's like and this is where, like to me, wise mind and dialectical statements bring you to your self-worth, wholeness you can feel guilty about something and then also look at it and see there were many things I did well aligned with my values.
Speaker 2:You know, sometimes guilt comes up and it doesn't really match the facts, or sometimes it matches one core thing that we have to name and own, accept and recognize you did a lot of effective stuff. Someone's self-worth is always in the like wholeness, the expansion, the acceptance, which kind of unites like psychoanalysis, psychodynamic stuff, act, dbt, ifs, and that like sounds oversimplifying because it's like why would somebody need to go to therapy if that's the basic concept? But it's like that is like one of the hardest things to do in life, like except the moment as it is, the feelings as they come and how they feel yourself and like your own value, misaligned behavior Like that's because we talk about this constantly and every day. This is hard for me, right? Actually I'll share.
Speaker 1:Josh and I yesterday um shout out josh, our producer josh.
Speaker 2:Um, we went. I had a meltdown a little bit. I we went to this restaurant, slash bar, to meet our friends who had a baby, um, and we were waiting on them because the baby had napped later and and so they were like not gonna be able to come the original time. So we were just sitting there like having a drink. It was like afternoon and there was only one little corner of this already occupied table that we could sit at at the time and the sun was like blazing on us. You know those like times. We were at a table. You're just like. You're like squinting your eyes and it's a nightmare, yeah. But actually this very friendly guy was like come on over and sit. We took the biggest table, like which was really nice. I made a note to like appreciate that. I was like what a nice person. But we sat down and it was like pretty uncomfortable, like right away where we're like beating on this.
Speaker 2:So eventually this ideal table opened up and it's like I had a choice to make, right when. It's like I could run over there and just sit, even before they'd cleaned up the table. But in my mind that wasn't like proper protocol. So I was like you know what? I'm just going to flag down the server and say like, hey, we have two friends coming in. They have a baby in a stroller. Could we snag that table? So I did that and the server was kind of this like meek hipstery guy who was like yeah, you know, like I'll, um, I'll make sure to get that table cleaned up for you and then you can head on over there. And I was like great. So I sat down with Josh and then immediately these three people come in and just sit down there. Yep, I straight up lose it Because I'm like is he going to discourage them from going over there? Is he going to tell them to get?
Speaker 1:up? Is he going to whatever? Is he going to hold the boundary, I mean?
Speaker 2:but I had this like extreme suffering. I really did have this like extreme suffering where I was. Like you know, in this life you do the right thing and you get punished.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like where I was like really upset. Oh yeah, no good deed goes unpunished, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then it's like I really was like it shouldn't be this way, it shouldn't be like this, Like the person who just barges in and sits shouldn't get the best table in the house yeah, Like that's wrong, Like I and I suffered about it and poor Josh for like a good 15 minutes where I was like I just kept saying to him I was like I'm pissed, Like I'm pissed, and I was just like so wait, so finish this so the pissed and I was just like so wait, so finish this.
Speaker 2:So the people just sat there and nothing happened, so they just sat there and nothing happened.
Speaker 1:The waiter who?
Speaker 2:had. The waiter promised us this table just didn't. I think they were just a little bit passive like that's kind of how they work.
Speaker 1:But and maybe the waiter was busy with other.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was very busy in this place but then the table next to them opened up and josh and I just over there, and then the waiter was like I'm glad you guys could get this table. That's kind of how we like glossed it over, so wait a second.
Speaker 1:So you had a like a complete corrective experience in real time where you guys instead of waiting on him, then rushed to the table that came full circle for you. Yeah, that's kind of wild.
Speaker 2:I did get to a place before that new table opened up where I was like you know what? This is what it is Like. Let go.
Speaker 2:But I really like, and I let it go into other zones of my anger and was like there was a wise mind there that I was kind of refusing for a bit. That was like Kelly, you're really dealing with the situation you wish you were in, not the one you are in, yeah. And I was like, yeah, I'm just going to stay there for a minute here and just rage. And I just verbalized over and over to Josh how pissed I was. I was just like this isn't right. This isn't how it should be. It shouldn't be like this. It should be.
Speaker 1:If you do the right thing, you shouldn't get removed Now would it have been a wise mind move to get up and address those people well, that's a great question like would it have been like I'm gonna commit to my value of whatever the values are that are associated with it and I am gonna like not lean into these people? Yeah and just say, you know what? We had asked this lovely waiter over here to save this table for us. Like what would that have been?
Speaker 2:Now I definitely think I would have like shadow around them, thinking I was like a Karen and like in this cool hipster bar I was just like oh, I can't look like that which I already was. That essentially like just to Josh privately, like flipping.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like the entitlement, yeah Like, oh yeah, actually excuse me, excuse me, you know, just kind of like oh it's so uncool, you just don't sit at the table yeah, yeah, I just wanted to like freak out, but like that's a good question of like, is it sometimes wise to be like uncool, to be a karen to like hold a boundary or express herself. Yeah, I don't know if it's wise, but I think I trend towards. I probably would have said something to those people and made it real uncomfortable.
Speaker 2:Like I.
Speaker 1:I think I trend towards just making things uncomfortable with my honesty, and I'm not saying that's a be there decision at all and I know that my wife will be like let me lead on this.
Speaker 1:Don't do it because you're gonna trend pretty honest, honest and or a lot of distress and discomfort and people won't know how to respond to it so yeah um, again, not that that's the right thing to do, but you know, a lot of times I think that she's that wise, that embodiment of wise mind outside of me, because she's just like, let's just pause on that for a second, yeah, like don't do it right, like yeah, josh is much like nicer and kinder in those moments to people and sometimes I'll even like to him.
Speaker 2:I'm like get mad, get on my level you're not getting mad enough?
Speaker 1:this is an outrage would you access your emotion mind for one second? Yeah get on board with this.
Speaker 2:One of the employees at nordstrom rack was like really rude to josh. I lost it on them. I was like that's nice's nice, though. That's protective. Yeah, I felt like how dare you talk to him like this? And then I actually the other day had an encounter with the same person and we both like remembered each other and I was just kind of like thank you for your help and I left.
Speaker 2:She's like you have a file here and we're going to note that Noted yeah, noted, you were noted a person like in that seinfeld where elaine has like a oh and her doctor's office yeah, and it's just, she like can't stand it, she can't tolerate she needs to know what it says.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah I always thought it was funny too, because isn't in that episode, if I'm remembering correctly, they're writing in pencil. Yeah, like what chart do you write in pencil?
Speaker 2:that must have just been a device.
Speaker 1:It has to be a device so that they could erase something and then do it. Yeah, but like my mind is like that's wrong, like you don't write in a chart with that I mean nobody writes in a chart anymore, really but like Right, yeah.
Speaker 2:That was kind of like a thing. Yeah, it would be an ink.
Speaker 1:It would be Difficult cross off slash with your initials so that people know you didn't forge it. But well, I'm glad that it's crazy to me in that story. How not crazy, but, like you, actually had the corrective experience immediately.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Like you had the moment to like OK, like whatever, you were getting really ramped up about it and things like that, and then, like you rushed over for the next table.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally, and I was just like we're going to go grab it Cause I wonder if you play it out in a different way, where it was like you, you make the John move, you make it really uncomfortable. You're at the restaurant, you say it to them, you possibly see these people and then the table opens up next to you and then you're like, oh, had I only waited. Yeah, another option would have opened up for me and maybe this wouldn't have had. I don't know. I'm just playing that scenario out where, because, like, if I would have leaned into being like, um, yeah, you gotta wait, I'm sorry, like this is my table, like right and then it's like I'm in this bar for the rest of the night or whatever, with these people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and there's like that air of it yeah and then it's like oh, if I just would have waited 15 minutes, another table would have opened up right, they wouldn't have to know how unregulated now people are like just staring at me giving me daggers, yeah yeah, well, yeah, it's a, it's a thing and it's like so much of like the wise mind work that I'll do in my practice.
Speaker 2:It will be like sharing moments like that where it's like you're connected to it and you're not even my own. Some of my own self-disclosure will be around that more, like isolated situations where, or like validating them, where it's like I would feel that if I had asked the waiter to save me the table and they didn't, yeah, I would feel something and it might be hard to, like you said, accept and expand around that private event of anger which was there. But then you know what's funny, like what I had to expand around once we sat at the new, very nice table, I looked over like around this fence Did you feel the need there to have to say the very nice table.
Speaker 2:Like you had to like plug the table. So I just want to give a moment, I want to plug the table.
Speaker 1:It was very nice.
Speaker 2:Thank you to the table.
Speaker 1:Thank you to the table.
Speaker 2:But I like peered around the fence where there was like a waiting area and there's like a bunch of couples and people who had been there for a while waiting immediately feel guilt. It was almost like my ego was trying to suffer, like, well, we're more comfortable suffering, so let's find some stimulus.
Speaker 2:Yeah, let's find something to suffer about yeah, and I did actually, but it was quicker. I got more quickly to my wise mind because I actually said to myself internally like you, you know you're a person as much as they are. You've been waiting, sitting in like a sunny, really uncomfortable spot and you asked the way it looks like you've gone through the protocol, you deserve to be here, you as much self-worth as these people. And then I was able to be like, okay, and now I'm fine, and I really was, and Josh and I started talking about like wedding planning and like let it go, which is another thing we can talk about relative to why it's my wedding planning.
Speaker 1:But, um, yeah, I think those embodiments are so important. You had mentioned like disclosure, like being able to disclose that to patients, like we struggle as much as anybody with this and it's hard. You know everybody's on a different path with disclosure and personal disclosure, right, but like and how much they want to share and how much they think is effective for them. And certainly context plays into that as well. But I think those are moments where it's like, oh okay, this is something I could just give a nugget of like yeah, and like this past week I was struggling with this, right, like yeah, because it comes up so regularly, just day to day, moment to moment. These are like choice points for us where we can try to expand and be more flexible. And it's ongoing.
Speaker 1:Um, just the amount of examples I have, by just parenting alone, of like the difficulty for me to embody any type of wise mind with my kids is like wild, yeah, and I feel like I sometimes try to balance it out when they're highly emotional. Instead of that wise place, I will just go completely rational, and it's like they can't hear me, right, it's like that's not. The answer is to like give them logic and like their minds aren't even capable of that. Yeah, but it's such a strong pull but that's a great point.
Speaker 2:Like do we sometimes try to like force, getting to wise mind by like over correcting with the rash?
Speaker 1:that's what I do it's with my kids especially, do it too like, and and that's also me if we're then bringing an act trying to control my private events, that's the control move. Yeah, because it's like, oh, sitting in this distress with my kids, let's say, and like the wise decision would be to just maybe sit with them yes, that's a lot for me to tolerate. So it's like the control move. I want to escape that discomfort of not knowing where that's going to go. So I'm just going to like, go to that solution focus. I'm just going to go to that rational place because that's going to make me feel somehow better. That's what I'm telling myself. That's going to make me feel better, like I'm problem solving. I'm going to drop this great little nugget of logic and then they're going to be fine and it's like that never happens.
Speaker 2:For them, for yourself. Never it doesn't happen for anybody. No it's like it's not helpful in that moment, right yeah, because it doesn't like the feelings and the narrative coming up with them. It has to be both engaged with and not completely followed, which is like that's why therapy, I think, is so important. It's like that is a very tricky balance. How do you fully engage with your felt sense and your private events, your thoughts, the narratives coming up, and not act them out like an absolute lunatic? Yes, it's hard, it's hard.
Speaker 1:And there's also like private events that are like not necessarily painful, but also a little bit conceited, because there are like thoughts that are telling me like well, just say something smart and that'll be what is the antidote to this situation. Like John, you're a smart dad, You're a smart guy, You'll be able to do this. And it's like that is an absurd thought to be fusing with right now. Like smart has nothing to do with this you're polished like you shave. Today it's great like you can do this.
Speaker 1:It's like that is not a helpful thought to fuse with either like yeah, yeah, just because like you have like some life experience and like you could drop like something on a child to be like well, you know, actually it's like that's not helpful in this situation at all. Like hopefully there will be moments in my life where, like, there will be conversations where I can drop some nuggets, but yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, Well, they'll be ready for it.
Speaker 1:They'll be ready to receive it or it won't be. Like the house is on fire right now and like people are like going crazy. It's like that is not the moment to be trying to like shoehorn in this, like I don't know sitcoming type of moment where then, all of a sudden, they're going to hear me and be like oh yeah, dad, you're right. So you're totally right. I feel different.
Speaker 2:I never thought about that. Yeah, yeah, that that that's not gonna happen. No, it's ironic like so much of my helping people get to wise mind or myself. It is like full of ironies. It's like when you fully engage with your emotion mind and your rational mind a bit and marry them together, you don't have to push yourself anywhere. It's like the wise mind will come up or your like self-worth will come up, because it's like you're fully accepting your whole experience and not resisting it. That's where that like guidance that's wise comes up.
Speaker 2:And I I like this concept so much too because it's like so anti-paternalistic, like I'm a therapist, which concept the wise mind concept just in and of itself, just wise mind itself or like an internal family system therapy, the self that we all possess. It's like you don't, as a therapist, have to like you know whatever, like teach them how to be people, or like you need so much help from me and how to like live. It's more like how do you notice where you are blocking out your own wisdom? Like do a few things, learn a few techniques for letting that part of you rise up a little bit more. So it's you guiding you. Yes, not me.
Speaker 1:I wonder too, what are your thoughts on just how, and before people even know wise mind as a just a concept? But how are we programmed to view these different states of minds? Because I feel like people come in that I work with that, we work with you, know, you and I both, when you were with with us, when you were with us that was a weird way to put it, but you're still with us. But like the idea that it's like oh no, I was programmed like rational is like good.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And rational was like the way I need to be thinking. I'm too emotional. I've always been told as a child I'm too emotional, or something like that. So, yeah, does that come up for you with your individuals, where it's like they're viewing, maybe you help them understand the wise mind concept and then they're like oh, this is really throwing a wrench in my whole view of the world, because I was told one was good and one was not. Like I was too emotional, I was under controlled whatever the terminology that they use and it's like I need to be more rational, more logical, more, more. And so I've been like grinding it out my whole life to not have emotional experiences.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, in my practice that comes up a lot actually, and that's where I do shift a bit more to attachment work yeah psychodynamic work.
Speaker 2:Some parts work because to me, like that, like essentially what you're saying is like either my entire emotion mind or part of my emotion mind has been thrust into what I would call shadow, yeah, meaning like I have learned to disavow parts of my wholeness in order to be accepted, loved, you know, not abused in my family or in my school situation or in my whatever. It was adaptive for me to close off this part of my authentic self in order to survive a tough situation of one kind or another, like, again, that idea of engaging with something. Before you can help someone like re-invite that part of themselves to the forefront, you have to do so much, appreciating their process of closing it off and like almost like honor it, a picture of someone like bowing down to, like like there's nothing wrong with you for having done that that helped you get where you are now and survive. And yet here's a dialectic it's not helping you anymore In the context you're in now, it's only getting in your way.
Speaker 2:But it's a habit and it's like something that basically, like your ego, I would say, to use a Freudian concept has decided this stays here so we can get by, but it's part of the self. How do we help the ego this will be IFS how do we help the parts or the ego start to feel comfortable, to let that part of you in a bit, even if there's negative consequences? So it's like if you were taught to never cry. Crying is a tough one. It can be so repressed, yeah, so deep. I think that takes some real long time.
Speaker 1:I just feel like people oh, not always, that's not a good descriptor, but like I feel like more often than not people have a lot more positive connotations. If reviews you know the, the venn diagram, right wise, is ultimately where we want to get, it's both. People have far more positive attributes that they attribute to rational mind than they do emotional mind, like far more they view it as such a positive and obviously that's contextual, it's programming, it's society, it's culture, it's all of these things. It's just rarely do I ever have somebody in groups that I'm working with say like oh yeah, I was, like I need to be in emotion mind all the time time, like it's just so great, like rarely does that ever happen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, it's like in the shadow of like the collective, to like be emotional, to cry. How many clients, even in therapy, cry and they're like I'm sorry, oh yes, this is what we do in here is feel I'm sorry, I'm gonna cry, yeah, all the time like that's the precursor.
Speaker 1:it's like I'm sorry, I'm gonna need tissues. It yeah All the time Like that's the precursor. It's like I'm sorry, I'm going to need tissues.
Speaker 2:It's like where are we? We're in therapy.
Speaker 1:Like, yeah, like you can do, yeah, you can feel it here and I'm not saying that judgmentally, but it's like that programming is strong. Yeah, that like that's an inconvenience for other people when I'm crying.
Speaker 2:Or crying or like I shouldn't be crying, like that is right, almost ubiquitous. Yeah, and that's, I think, even too, where, like, you use like the transference to help someone, meaning like the relationship or kind of the projected relationship a client might put on you in the therapy room and then counter transference that you put on them, using that, that like the process of therapy, noticing where they might be away from their wise mind, be over-controlled by another part of them, have some shadow right when it's like this part of me goes in the closet, like hearing how they relate to you. You know it's like oh, I'm so sorry, I cried, or even like if they get really angry or use really harsh judgments anytime they're in a conflict with someone. Yeah, it's like noting that and being able to like reflect it. There's so much like bringing people to like awareness of like where are you not in your wise mind, where are you disconnected from your self-worth? Let's stay there for a minute and just get curious.
Speaker 1:Curiosity, yes, yeah, yeah. It's just interesting how much that comes up, especially in the group space, because then people lump onto it. Crying is a great example. I cried too much as a child, or I would you know, if we're thinking about it just from the program that we received from caregivers, or like, if I did cry, I had to like seclude myself, like go to your room, take care of that.
Speaker 1:When you've calmed down, then come out, or you know, like that type of thing, like that's not something to be seen by people, right? So then it's like a real, like harsh course, correct to like I need to live in like this logical place all the time, or like problem solving place. So, yeah, building that awareness and that curiosity, like okay, so maybe that serves you in your family system and maybe that like got you through some stuff. How is that serving you now? Like can you have that emotional experience, not hide it from people and at the same time, like you know, make very like effective decisions for yourself and you can right Like that is possible. It's interesting, though I always think about like how people are like programmed to think about eat, both or all of these states of mind, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And like some of the programming they're like aware of and some is like so subconscious where it's like, oh wow, like I didn't realize, like I really was very subtly discouraged from doing X, right, you know. And some of that's like in the family system, some of that's more largely cultural, like what do women do?
Speaker 1:Oh, we could do a whole thing on how it's gendered too.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Right, emotion versus rational and how that's. Yeah, you know 100%. There's a lot of photo ground to like. Explore that even too. Just as a simple venn diagram, how much gender stuff is in there as well yeah, totally, totally.
Speaker 2:Well, I wonder, should we do some like pop culture?
Speaker 1:pop culturey stuff mean what have you been consuming? What have I been consuming recently? I'm trying to think, I don't know. Not much I've been reading, but nothing too exciting. I just finished this book called H for Hawk. Now, I got to bring this up because I got to give the author credit, but it's basically a book. It's it this is going to be oversimplified here, but it's basically a book that deals with grief.
Speaker 3:So you know, sad I'm in obviously like that is my calling Sad dark. I hope there's.
Speaker 1:I hope there's no closure because then that's my book but it's called H is for Hawk and this is by Helen McDonald.
Speaker 1:I hope there's no closure because then that's my book but it's called H is for Hawk and this is by Helen MacDonald, and it is this book that's basically about her grief over her losing her father, but also her and her father having this shared experience of falconry, so like learning how to tame these very like wild creatures.
Speaker 1:Specifically, she gets a little bit more into and I I, if I can bring up the name, I think I'm saying this right but it's basically how she was trying to um agoshik, which is like or a gosh, which is a certain type of Hawk that apparently is really hard to tame, and so it's kind of her experience of dealing with her grief through learning how to tame this very wild animal and this animal is literally like living with her, it's like in her house in order to tame it, to get used to her, and then like her going out in the wild and eventually like the idea of in the wild and eventually like the idea of also her grief and anticipated loss of like, eventually she's just going to let this hawk go, and so it was a very interesting book.
Speaker 1:It came out a while ago but it's been on my list for such a long time. But it was a book that had a lot of really, really powerful moments of just like memories of her father, how much her father meant for her. Also, her struggles with depression, seclusion, isolating, and really her only at times, her only like companion was this like hawk that they're, this goshawk that she's trying to tame. So I mean, I know the millions of listeners we have are going to write in correct me on that, which is fine. We'll have somebody who does falconry come in.
Speaker 2:Um, I've been hearing about falconry, a little bit like yeah, seeing it on instagram even am I saying that right, probably not, but it was.
Speaker 1:It was a great read. I think some of the reviews of it were like it goes a little heavy into the like details of falconry, but I didn't find that yeah, like to me metaphor yeah there are a lot of books that do that, where they get really into something but you realize they're really talking about something else.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and there's another layer of the book where she also like kind of like taps into like a little bit of the history of it and and someone specifically, um, an author specifically, who was engaged in falconry as well. So that's something that that I was like really into, cause I was like where, and it doesn't have to go anywhere, trust me, I don't need a book to go anywhere and like that like sometimes is like upsetting for some people when I, when I recommend a book and I'm like, if you want a conclusion, not your book, yeah, um, but I I feel like it did kind of like come around to her journey through this grief.
Speaker 1:So yeah what about you?
Speaker 2:yeah, well, um, josh and I watched wild, wild country because, josh is a documentary filmmaker by day.
Speaker 1:Shut up, josh um I'm to interrupt you here, because there are two things that always come to mind where I'm like I wish I could erase my memory and go back and watch them again or experience them again. Number one is the first season of Serial, like. That was like I was like consumed every day to when work was going to end so I could go and listen to the next episode or whatever. And then Wild Wild Country. I wish I could go back and like re-experience that Because it was gripping, it was riveting, Gripping. Yeah, both of those and the people are just so interesting, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, really, it's like the story itself is interesting. I just want to know more about these.
Speaker 1:I mean, I know that they tell you about these people, but it's like, oh, we need more of a deep dive here. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I need to read their file. You also like hear about different main characters from like many other interviews in the show and then you hear from the characters themselves a lot of the time. Basically, if you haven't seen it, it's about this cult. Every cult thinks they're not a cult, but this cult essentially in Oregon, in Antelope Oregon, that came from India. They took over this land in Oregon and, like all cults do, were based on some premise of love and community and whatever.
Speaker 1:And ended up doing some pretty heinous things.
Speaker 2:Yes, and this was early, if I'm yeah, mid 80s, early 80s, yeah, something like that yeah, yeah, it was.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean so disturbing at times, so shocking, so just everything, yeah, really well, and you know what's funny, like the one thing is, of course, I was like thinking about us, talking about why is mine, as we were watching last night especially, and like how, like the mark of a cult, one of the marks of a cult is like there is truly no free thinking. It's like, whatever the leader, who is like absolutely worshiped, believes and like espouses, you follow completely to the letter and you like give up, you burn every bridge, you give up everything to like follow their word, and it's really missing that sense of like. Well, what do I think about that teaching? You know, what do I? And it's like very-. Yeah, again that curiosity.
Speaker 1:Right, let's come back to that word. There is no curiosity necessarily, it's just like okay, we're doing it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:It's just kind of like following and we're doing it.
Speaker 2:And anybody who says anything against the cult. You start to hate them and you excommunicate them.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's like, and there's a part in it. I'm going to try to like share this without really spoiling it, but there's a part in it where one of the people who like comes out of the cult. I'm just gonna share the details. Spoiler alert. Skip forward a little bit if um yeah, you want to go back and watch it, but there's a character who was in prison for like 13 years for her participation not sheila um, but I remember mashanti be the, the australian, I do remember her yeah she went for 13 years to prison and then had to stay in germany.
Speaker 2:If she stayed in germany, she wouldn't um, oh, this is coming back.
Speaker 2:I remember that she had attempted murder of the doctor, of the guru, because the doctor was going to kill you. So she attempted murder on him, served 13 years and then had, then was supposed to come back to the US. She couldn't. I don't know why. In Germany she couldn't be extradited. Or maybe they just had some agreement where if she stayed in Germany they wouldn't extradite her.
Speaker 2:But she got a call from her daughter-in-law that her son was dying of a brain tumor. So she had to make this decision. She had abandoned these children to participate in the cult and now had to stay in Germany while he was in Australia yeah, australia. So she made the decision to go back to the United States and risk being put in jail for the rest of her life, to plea at the court, the federal court to be able to go see her son. And the court took her case. I think she didn't say exactly what she said, but she made her statement and I think it was pretty honest. It was like an admission of what she'd done and then, like the time came for the what do they call it? The result Verdict, the verdict.
Speaker 1:Is that a verdict? That's? All right, we offer no legal advice on this podcast.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and what they said on the show. She reported it. As the judge said, you know, sometimes justice wins over mercy, but sometimes mercy wins over justice and in this case, that is what is happening and we're sentencing you to time served Meaning case. That is what is happening and we're sentencing you to time served meaning and I like really moved me to tears because I was like this is the difference and it's like obviously the american government has tons of issues, but in this moment, this judge and in this like due process, the, the judge was able to take in the information and use their own wise mind. Because really it's like here's the law, right, you, you attempt murder on someone, you're probably going to prison for the rest of your life. But it's like here's this woman who was brainwashed in a cold as she was at a very vulnerable time in her life, attempted murder in this way, did serve some time, is remorseful, was willing to risk life in prison to be by her son's bedside while he died of a brain tumor.
Speaker 1:like there's so much humanity there, yeah, like she's not saying I'm not going to come here and and try to get sneaky she's like.
Speaker 2:I'm willing for my values right of family and to repair what I broke I have no idea how this is going to go.
Speaker 1:This is a toss-up and I'm willing to do it.
Speaker 2:I'm willing, because I care this much about doing what's right and value aligned. It was like to me it was so great to end it on that Cause. It's like this is what it is to be guided by your wise mind. It's not to follow a guru to the end of the earth. It's like it's to find, like the guru within like to find.
Speaker 1:We'll talk about outside of the therapy realm. I mean, wouldn't any society aspire to have those types of positions, the judicial system to be the embodiment of wise mind? I mean, wouldn't that be like the aspirational goal of like that nuance to be able, that curiosity, but also, at times, the firmness that it needs but the compassion it needs, like that would be amazing. I mean, that's a great example of it. No-transcript, not examples of that, probably more.
Speaker 2:Totally. And it's like in society too. It's like when you put someone in this role of like you're the arbiter, often like egoic needs for power, needs for validation, like absorb or overwhelm the person. Yeah, it's so interesting and I think this is another reason. I think like the concept of wise mind being a little bit abstract is both like unhelpful and more helpful. That's why sometimes I'll interchange between values and wise mind and self, because sometimes I need it to be an abstract concept. I need it to be something I can't like guide a person toward. They have to guide themselves toward it, like just slow down and ask that inner part of you what do you know, what's there? And then other times it's like you want something more concrete, have to guide themselves toward it. Like just slow down and ask that inner part of you what do you know, what's there? And then other times it's like you want something more concrete, like let's look at your values, what you care about.
Speaker 1:Yes, I've also been consuming. I kind of, as you were talking, I kind of forgot about this. I've also been consuming. How did this get made? Podcast love, yeah, tell people what it is. How did this get made as a podcast? That's literally been around since the dawn possibly the dawn of podcasts.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like Marc Maron level Years.
Speaker 1:Yeah, who knows how many episodes they have, but Paul Scheer, jason Mantzoukas, june Diane Ray Shields literally watched terrible movies and just discussed them. And how did this get made? I went to a live before I even knew what it was. My brother-in-law took me I was in Portland visiting them took me and my wife to a live taping of it and I was like, well, I didn't even see the movie. He was like you do not need to see the movie. This is going to be hilarious and entertaining to you. I was like, no, I really think I should watch the movie before I go.
Speaker 1:I didn't end up watching the movie, life changing. It was like listening to these three people talk is they could be describing paint drying on the wall and I would be in tears. It's just so funny. So I actually went back and I think what inspired me was that we were doing this podcast and I was like what's a podcast that I've really liked, because you're you know way more podcasts than I do and I was like what's one that just to like get into, like the podcast? I was like, oh, how did this get made? So I threw one on, didn't see the movie at all and it was. It's a laugh riot it's so funny.
Speaker 2:What was the movie? Do you remember the ugly truth?
Speaker 1:oh, which is like a katherine heigl vehicle and gerard butler. Yeah, I think maybe I did actually see it. But yeah, I've seen that movie. Yeah, when they were describing certain things, I was like, oh yeah, maybe I did see that movie and of course all of these movies have so many tropes of like different things, but it was. I think they were actually in Scotland recording it. I think it's a recent episode, but yeah, it was so funny, I loved it. And apparently Paul Scheer has a book out about trauma.
Speaker 2:I mean, I shouldn't say that.
Speaker 1:That's a gross misrepresentation. But I think, a lot of his childhood. What I've seen is, as he shared on that podcast, in particular, I think, jason Manzoukas and June Diane Rainfield. My understanding is that they'll kind of be like oh, like Paul. That's actually not what most children experience. And. I think he's kind of compiled a lot of these anecdotal things and then they were like you should write a book about that, really so.
Speaker 2:I have to put that on my list. I know I should read that because I really like him.
Speaker 1:Yes, he's great. I think it's like called the joyful recollections of trauma oh or something like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like, maybe how he like translates uses humor as like a sublimation yeah, so um, but anyway, that was another thing um I've been consuming I remember there was like a I think I said this to josh on it's like there's an episode where june day and was like I have not seen the film moana, but I am going to talk about it I like screamed. I was like that's like my middle name it's like I have not read this article at all, but I have some strong opinions.
Speaker 2:Go ahead and just oh, that's so funny yes, they had adam scott on and he was like well, well, I have seen Moana, he goes and it's terrific.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, wait, let me clean this up a little bit. So Paul Scheer did release a book in 2024, joyful Recollections of Trauma, and I think he's on a book tour right now, but they're still releasing episodes of how Did this Get Made? Yes, and then I also wanted to clean up from our last podcast. I had mentioned in the last podcast this idea of like, being the like when things are going crazy in the cabin of a plane or whatever. Right, like do you want the pilot to come out and be like, oh my God, we're going down. Like is that going to be helpful? Or do you want like this calm, cool, like a directive, in order to kind of embody that? You know, wise mindedness and that's kind of attributed to I couldn't remember the book at the time, but that's.
Speaker 1:Dr Becky Kennedy writes a great book. She has she's all over the place right now, but good inside. It's a great parenting book. So if people are looking for strategies with children, how they can be better parents but also like be kind to themselves Dr Becky Kennedy is great with stuff like that, that. So I just wanted to clean that up and give you know credit where credit is due yeah, totally um, and yeah, I mean we mentioned wow, wow country.
Speaker 2:You can see that on netflix. You can see that on netflix it's great, probably you can listen to.
Speaker 1:How does this get made anywhere now?
Speaker 1:it's probably on every single podcast as well as it should be yeah, yeah so now we're gonna do our our new segment called is it wise? And the way I want to set this up is to really just ask kelly, because I'm here, I really want to put kelly on the spot on this one, um, but this is kind of a. These can be a little bit like silly examples of like questions, and is it that wise? And who knows, it might tap into something even deeper, but I'm curious your thoughts. Is it wise to buy art for people?
Speaker 1:And the reason I ask this is because I came in to record the podcast, yeah, and was immediately put on the spot, accosted and said John, look behind you. My was immediately put on the spot, accosted and said John, look behind you. Was it your sister? Sister-in-law? My sister-in-law bought this for me. What do you think? So it was a piece of art and I like it and I think it works and I think it's great. But I think the larger question is is it wise to buy art for people? Yeah, yeah, and then.
Speaker 2:I did reveal that we registered for it and fully chose it, fully revealed.
Speaker 1:I like that. You didn't tell me that though.
Speaker 2:I know.
Speaker 1:It was just my like. You just wanted my opinion yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, it's like I almost was like putting in the position of criticizing our taste Exactly, or more like my taste, because I put it on there.
Speaker 1:Huge reveal. Yeah, I was so saboteurs over here. I was saboteurs over here.
Speaker 2:I was sabotaged into this, but is it? Wise to buy art for people? Well, I think. Of course it makes me think it's like. Of course, the question raises other questions, because that's just what's fun about this conversation what you define as art in terms of the gift, because it's like interesting, you could buy someone a clock, you could buy someone a candle holder might be more art than the candle itself.
Speaker 2:yes, you could buy someone a clock. You could buy someone a candle holder. It might be more art than the candle itself. Yes, you could buy someone like visual art, like a painting or whatever. Yes, almost something like decorative maybe.
Speaker 1:I think many things count as art. Yeah, so many things count as art. You could glassware, a vase, a vase, if you will.
Speaker 2:Yeah a vase. Yeah, ooh, you can use those vases.
Speaker 1:Have you ever met someone who, like casually, was just like oh, I brought a vase, never my youngest son, shane, had a homework this week and one of his like sight words to learn was vase. Yeah, and there was a part of me that half said it and half said vase. It was really embarrassing.
Speaker 1:Because he looked at me and he was kind of like my dad doesn't even know how to read. There was a moment where he was like he doesn't know what that word is. So I took a hard writing and corrected it in Vase, it's Vase. You don't want your kid going in. I'm sorry, I don't want my kid going in and saying Voss.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:I mean it's to like troll them, that you would teach them. Yeah, it was just. And if you say vows out there, please continue to do it, because that's you and great, but, like I, it was a funny moment. But yeah that's.
Speaker 1:I feel like it's wise actually, I don't know if it's that wise to buy art for people. Yeah, because I think it also puts them in the position of I have to hang it or I have to, like, have it out, yeah, yeah. Or you're putting them in the position of I'm never going to have it out, but when you visit me I'm going to have it out, yeah, which is like a mad scramble or a dash Right, I don't know. I feel like it's a hard needle sometimes to thread to know people's tastes. Yeah, know what they're going to like. I mean, some art is so like plain that I guess you're, but then it doesn't feel as meaningful from my perspective.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, I know it's like art, especially now. I'm like so much more into art that has some kind of like story. We just found out we found an antique shop down the street that I it's like the only thing I think about now. It's so cool, nice.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can't wait to buy you something from there and not get your opinion on it at all. That would be a wise decision.
Speaker 2:So you know how some antique shops like everything's like $1,000 and up. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. In this one it's like everything's like $100. It's great, but I think, short answer, it's not wise because it's usually not respectful enough of their like autonomy. But then you almost raise the question of like are gifts wise? Like it's like yeah, or like what is the meaning of a gift? What is, like the best way to give a gift? I I try to think about that idea of like what is something they would never buy themselves but they would want.
Speaker 1:That's a good way to think about it and then it's like like what is something they would never buy themselves, but they would want. That's a good way to think about it or that they would never buy themselves. Yes, because there's a lot of people who are like God I love that thing, but for some reason they're tethered to this idea. And these are people that probably would have no problem in terms of like the finances of buying it, but for some reason they're attached to this idea.
Speaker 2:Well, I couldn't buy that for myself. Yeah, they wouldn't put their money. They wouldn't put their money there, or that it's too much, or it's like yeah, I don't know if I get that money, I'll spend it on this. Yeah, yeah, frivolous yeah so I like to. I think that's a good, good way of taking but then, with that logic, what would someone then be getting you?
Speaker 1:oh because, because I can think of a few Like something I wouldn't buy myself.
Speaker 2:But you would really want and appreciate that.
Speaker 1:I would really want and appreciate I mean honestly, I think if my wife Sarah was like I got us somebody to come and clean our house once a month, I think that would be like I would be like thank you yeah. Like drop dirt. Because there's always a reason.
Speaker 1:There's always a reason why I'm like I could just do it myself, I'll clean it or I'll just deal with it. Like our, our house is just base level, kind of like not the cleanest because we have kids and things like that. So I can always talk myself out of it. But I think if, like she was like they're coming once a month, they're gonna do a deep clean once a month, I think I would be like, oh, that would be great.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, that's, that's a good one, it's like because you probably always rationalize yourself oh yeah, I can do, I can do it, I'll always rationalize for it, or it always comes from a place of like a complete emotional moment, where I'm looking around my house and I'm like this place is a disaster. We need to get a professional in here because I can't keep up with it.
Speaker 2:Who am I? I?
Speaker 1:only have a high school diploma in cleaning. I have no advanced degree, I don't know what I'm doing here and just with finances and kids and stuff, there's always something where I could be like no, that money which should be used elsewhere, yeah, like I shouldn't be using it on something like that like yeah, and what about you?
Speaker 2:that's a really good point. Like maybe something I now great about spending on is like hotels, like going on a trip and staying at a hotel. Josh, are you listening?
Speaker 3:yeah, okay, yeah, yeah. Good to this. No, he meant for the gift. I meant for the gift, clue in, clue into this one, right here.
Speaker 1:Things that Kelly would not buy for herself. Okay, hotels is so interesting. Sarah will not. I have to book all of our hotels. Yeah, she does not want to know how much I'm spending for a place. I'm just sleeping. Yeah, because she's like when we travel, like we're not like spending all of our time. Yeah, like we're, we're, we're out, we're doing stuff. It's like you're telling me that seven, so she's just completely ejected from that.
Speaker 2:She's like Well, it's funny because we started to look up just a little bit like honeymoon costs. I mean there are some on this one. Not that we're going to use this, but I was like it was literally the first search I did Honeymoons for $15,000 per person. I'm like 30 grand. I'm like 30 grand. Per person yeah, and it's, you know, whatever it's 14 days, it's a falling out totally. But to me I'm like would I really appreciate 14 days of that? Or like like a down part of a down payment on a house?
Speaker 1:yeah, like oh yeah, I mean even like when we were in the antique shop, like a beautiful handmade table for 30 years. I'd have that Like yeah.
Speaker 2:Cause there was one in there that was like two grand, which actually is not that bad for a table. That's beautiful. But I was like maybe I'm super, I like stuff. Almost to me it's like I'll get more use out of it. Like those 12 days, I'll be gone or, like those 14 days, your flight home excruciating if you've spent 30 grand on a honeymoon. It's like unless some rich person was just like here then I would do it and love it.
Speaker 1:I wonder too if, like, that's going to color your whole or you know, like you're going to look through a lens, that whole experience. We've got to maximize everything. We're spending this much money. We have to maximize the fun. Are we having fun enough? Is this romantic enough? Is it yeah? Is the food good enough?
Speaker 2:is it?
Speaker 1:they're right is the weather right? Is it like? I feel like every single thing for me would be a lens of I'm paying this much money this better? Be this better be like, like this is the pinnacle of some of my life experiences, like this moment right here. But then you just brought up another thing is it wise to have experiences or stuff versus stuff?
Speaker 1:versus stuff because I feel like there's been this whole push now towards experiences. Yeah, and I agree, I do like an experience and I think that there's so much value to experiences and sometimes they have been a really nice table. It's really nice, well.
Speaker 2:Well, the funny thing about the table is it's kind of a mix, because when I think of a big, long, beautiful table, yes, I think of dinner parties, because when I think of a big, long, beautiful table, yes, I think of dinner parties with people. You think of experiences, I think because what it does, is yes, it is a bridge do that here.
Speaker 1:It's a bridge to experiences. Yes, so that would be maybe the hybrid, where it's like this if it's a thing, if it's stuff does it, is it a conduit to more or is it a bridge to more experiences? That's a great way of looking at it, because, yeah, the dinner table would be like this is great. I know I can see eight, twelve people. I can have the people over I want like yeah, I just yeah yeah, and then it's like me.
Speaker 2:For years you could have that yes but it's like, yeah, it's interesting, like I do, because you know there's that act question of like the more morbid one, where it's like at your funeral, what would you want?
Speaker 1:people to say about you oh yeah, or your retirement party or whatever that question. It's like how do you want people to remember you? And like your eulogy and like how would people speak of you? Yeah, yes.
Speaker 2:Or it's like yeah, you think about that point in your life. Are you going to care about a kitchen table or a dining room table or this unbearable honeymoon? You went on or whatever it's like. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but there's also a version of that of like, but I need some place to eat, yeah, and it's nice to like eat someplace nice, right, and have a bunch of meals with the people I love.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I think. I mean with the honeymoon it's like nobody has to spend 30 grand. I don't think that's silly. I mean you can't, yeah, I mean yeah, it was like it's wild.
Speaker 1:I just figured out the art question, what it's wise to give people art that's made by kids, because Actually it's not that wise.
Speaker 2:I was going to say. I was like I'm curious, I actually didn't figure out that question.
Speaker 1:Well, I was just kind of thinking. I was like what if you gave somebody a piece of artwork that your child made like a small piece? They'd be like, oh, that's cute, like I can like have it at my desk, or something like that, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I have my nieces, my three eldest nieces just thought that just a lot came to me because I have a lot of my kids are and I was like I like hanging that up? Yeah, it's fun, yeah, I think that and when they give it to people, people do seem genuinely like, like we have, I have co-workers who still have some of the stuff that, like my kids did during the pandemic.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's cute and it's like up in their office. Yeah, and like you and I don't even see them regularly, so they're not like doing it. Yeah, to appease me Right. It's like, oh, that's like very a genuine thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, this interior designer that I follow on YouTube or watch her videos on YouTube, she's on YouTube.
Speaker 1:She's very into like art, that's like actually meaningful to your life. People made pieces yes, kids.
Speaker 2:Or the story behind it, or like a real thing and I'm like, I feel that too. I'm more into that too than just like something out of a like magazine or whatever. Well, you know, I think the best gift givers and I've only done this like once or twice, he's very good at it, Josh like noticing things the person mentions they want and then you see them not buying it. Yep, like his sister and her husband when they were in the process that's like a next level paying attention.
Speaker 1:It's crazy. It's like they were, like we need.
Speaker 2:We really need sushi like dishes and like bowls for like a japanese dinner, like your soy sauce and stuff. Yeah, wasabi for soy sauce. Like bespoke chopsticks, yes. So then Josh was like what should I get them? And I was like they said this Wow, bespoke Is like yeah.
Speaker 1:That was a, that's a great word, I love bespoke I love that word.
Speaker 2:Yeah, basically like individual or like custom, I think is what it means like a bespoke suit, like a bespoke jacket. Yeah, yes, I mean the best it's a great word, it's awesome. Anyway, yeah, yeah mentioned it, stored it and then bought it yeah, well, I told him to buy it because he was the one and I was like remember they said that, that they need that is next level yeah, and then they got him and they loved them. I think Right. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I like the end of the story. They loved them Right. Was that the take? She asks.
Speaker 3:Because that's what I've been telling myself since then. Since they opened it, they loved it.
Speaker 1:It was amazing. I was smashed Greatest thing ever, but it was the only time.
Speaker 2:I'd ever done that.
Speaker 1:Because I always say, famously, I'm not the best gift giver, yes, yes. Um well, what I want, too, is I want people to write in. I want people to email me, yeah, and say whether they think art, yeah, whether giving people art or buying people art is a wise choice. Totally, because I want to read some of our, you know, listener mail. Yeah, I would love that, the millions, possibly even thousands of people that are listening or like all our blood relatives oh totally and when they call in, my mother-in-law is like are you gonna have people?
Speaker 2:calling in yep, absolutely yeah we can maybe eventually do that. If we had enough, I think that'd be great.
Speaker 2:Yeah, write us in, let us know what you think about well, maybe that gets us even to like our thoughts, thoughts on future podcasts or next few, because we in our intro episode talked about we're going to look at zero in on different modalities and how they get at wise mind, because these first two episodes are talking more about our practice with it, our knowledge of it and its origins. Yes, and then have some guests and talk with them about their use of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, our own experiences as well. Thank you for sharing your experience at the dinner table or the table at the restaurant. Yeah, I'm still floored that, the table opened up next to it and you just got it. I know, I don't know why I'm stuck on that. I just feel like it was like full circle, yeah yeah, why didn't I register it as so like kismet?
Speaker 2:maybe I was just so in like at the table, like that.
Speaker 1:I wasn't able to like step back and be like wow, well, maybe just because now it's breathing and you're telling me the full story, I'm just kind of like, oh, and then you have the table open up and then you got it, yeah and we had very like subtle implicit repair with the server because he didn't like apologize.
Speaker 2:Nor did I like ask him to, it was like.
Speaker 1:Nor did I punish him like shake him, nor did I not tip him at all.
Speaker 2:Let's look at that like glad you guys got the table. Yes, glad to god bless.
Speaker 1:Like, yes, nozzle yeah, that is a riot. I love that. Was like interested in that. Well, are we wrapping up?
Speaker 2:Yeah, what do you want to?
Speaker 1:plug. You want to plug your practice.
Speaker 2:Sure, yeah, like, if you want to find me, my website is kkpsychotherapycom. So, yeah, if you want to learn more about me and my approach or work with me, um, or you're just like nosy, you can go there. Yeah, that's really me. Yeah, I have an individual practice.
Speaker 1:Nice and I'm Jonathan Butts. If you want to email me either your answers to the Is it Wise to Buy Art or just any questions, or what you would like to hear on the podcast, it's my last name, so btzmyfirstname Jonathan J-O-N-A-T-H-A-N at gmailcom.
Speaker 2:Nice, okay, and we will see you all. See you all next week. Next week we don't exactly have our topic fully solidified, but it will be great. All right, whatever, it is. Okay, thanks, everyone, see ya. Bye, Josh Shout out to Josh Shout out to Josh.
Speaker 1:Shout out to our music DJ.
Speaker 2:Yes, dj Blanket Forts. Thank you so much for the music. It's great. It's great. Check them out on Spotify. It's good stuff. Good 90s, 90s IDM Nerd out on Autocard Boards of Canada and Apex Twin.
Speaker 3:It's none of these things, but it's even better. Check it out, that's blanket forts.
Speaker 1:Two separate words, blanket forts If you didn't hear that. Uh, blanket forts DJ. Good stuff All right.
Speaker 2:The wise mind Happy hour podcast is for entertainment purposes only, not to be treated as medical advice. If you are struggling with your mental health, please seek medical attention or counseling.