The Wise Mind Happy Hour
Two therapists musing about the idea of an inner wise mind and how to connect with this psychic space in different contexts.
The Wise Mind Happy Hour
Wise Mind in Cinema: unpacking "Ordinary People"
Cinema often shapes our understanding of therapy, for better or worse. With a nod to the classic film "Ordinary People," we celebrate its authentic depiction of therapeutic relationships, family dynamics, and the journey of healing.
- music by blanket forts -
welcome to the wise mind happy hour this kind of is happy hour. Our last two recordings were morning.
Speaker 3:This is different this is different nighttime occasion.
Speaker 1:Yeah, good yeah, I have a little drink. John is going with water tonight.
Speaker 3:Water tonight Hydration.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and our producer, josh, is joining me with a little sangria. And yeah, we're gonna have a chill Friday night record and we're actually going to do a little movie night. We're going to be reviewing a movie that has therapy in the movie. We're going to talk about those scenes like therapeutic concepts in the movie. Of course, wise mind will come into it, but we're going to start just checking in with each other and like with what's been on our mind, what's been on your mind this week, john?
Speaker 3:this week what has been on my mind has been well, as I told you, I'm excited.
Speaker 1:I have a training coming up, so delving into some more act material, so acceptance and commitment therapy, which will that's forthcoming, so I'm very excited about that I'm thinking about how, in an individual session, it's like the, the content you might come to the, the session wanting to process it's like, is important, but also like what time the person arrives is important right how boundary they are with like closing things down at time right or like even sometimes asking me what things about my personal life right you know, or it's all like nonverbal material, and sometimes I think nonverbal material is like the most authentic of all.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I feel like, especially with that's, the thing that's interesting about group too is that sometimes it just becomes infectious. Where it's like in an individual session I can imagine I don't do them as much anymore, if ever but like maybe as you're reflecting on your day you're like, okay, well, that client like we really got to work on the boundaries with that client, they're really struggling with that, but that maybe doesn't bleed over into your other patients because they're not together. And I feel like in the group space sometimes it's just like not group, think, think, but it's just like they see it, somebody modeled it, oh, it must be okay, or yeah, or I don't know it.
Speaker 3:Just, even if it is redirected, it just feels very it's kind of taxing at times and I just feel like it kind of takes away from my ability to be more in my head about like conceptualizing things, because I think I'm just paying more attention to what people are doing.
Speaker 2:Then I'm like on heightened alert yeah is what it is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you can feel like a parole officer exactly. Yeah, I'm rather than like a thing, I'm like a truancy officer here, and then I will be like I'll talk when I feel like when I used to do therapy, I would so get on my like like high horse where it's like I am a clinician. This is not what I do.
Speaker 3:Therein lies like one of those things too, where, like you got to think about like there is a power dynamic there right Totally. Like, and it's like, as much as we want to be, like we're nonjudgmental and we want to be validating everything like this, like there is a part of it where it's like and you're gonna listen to me, yeah and you're gonna do what?
Speaker 3:I say like you know um, not in a tyrant way but it's just kind of like okay, great, like, this is a level playing field, but it's not really a level playing field because there's already. It can't be. It can't be because there's already a power dynamic here, right, right, like you're. I mean for a lot of reasons. You're paying me for a service, right, I'm coming in when I think group starts right, which it starts at the same time, but at the same time, if I'm running late, group doesn't start without me, you know. So it's like, and same thing with individual sessions. So there's all of that as well. That is just food for thought to think about where it's like, yeah, when this is happening, it's kind of like, okay, like, do I just have to like, lean into that power dynamic a little bit more?
Speaker 3:and just kind of be like yeah, and I'm running the show here, which I'm not, you know, opposed to doing at times, and still in a gentle way, but I would rather, maybe, put my energy elsewhere.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I like that. Even that recognition of all that stuff, like with anything you know, it's like this type of resistance is coming up in my reality.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I don't want it to be here, I don't prefer this type of right work, yeah, could I lean into it and really be there, even if I don't want it?
Speaker 1:yeah you know, yes, but also you could. You could resist it or you could like try another option, but I think it's like an interesting I mean forever that's a question for me with anything where it's like I got so much resistance this week from not in my work as a therapist and of course Josh knows this in so many just like tasks that went poorly.
Speaker 3:Like.
Speaker 1:I it was like a hundred different things where it's just like the thing that was supposed to be there Wasn't there. Like I went to went to get a prescription. They were like hassled me at walgreens about getting a prescription, kind of like are you gonna pick this thing up? You know those texts where it's like we've texted you 45 times they call you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, that's a whole another episode that we could just talk about that, because they call way too much they call text, call text, call text.
Speaker 1:So I they're like text, yes, if you're still coming for this, so I'm sorry, are they?
Speaker 3:running out of those bins that hold the medication, because anytime I go there there's a million of them and it's not like it's the whole back thing is overflowing, right? Is it really that bad of a situation they don't have?
Speaker 1:room for these things. They, I, I don't know what's going on there, but they were really like on me about it.
Speaker 1:So I drive and I need to switch my Walgreens. It's too far. It's near where I used to live, but it's a good Walgreens so I like whatever, kept it there for a while, went over there, took I went the worst time of day. I went at like 3.30. I passed two high schools. There's a thousand kids. I'm like what am I doing on the roads at this hour when I work from home? Like what am I doing?
Speaker 1:so I was like I planned to do two errands, couldn't even do the second one. I knew I couldn't do the second one the minute I hit all that traffic waiting in the drive-thru at walgreens and they're like what's the name? And I gave my name, takes them a while and I'm sort of like what's going on back there, come back. I see them coming back to look at the computer like 40 times. I'm like, oh, this isn't good. And then finally the woman's like we can't find it and I was like you hassled me, like this is here it's here because then one person another pharmacist came by and was like you, sure you didn't pick it up.
Speaker 1:I'm like what does it say in your system? I'm curious, because if I had it up I don't think your system would keep hassling about it.
Speaker 3:Right, I'm still getting phone calls At this point.
Speaker 1:I needed the hassle, because I do need it, but it's like I was just like what is going on and it made me so mad because I was like now I don't know, because I'm here's the other side. Other sub story is I'm doing a training all weekend and it's eight to five, and pharmacy is closed at five.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:So it's like I I'm kind of like and I have an hour break for lunch each day, but it's too far to get there.
Speaker 3:I also have lunch Right, so it's like Right.
Speaker 1:Now I'm kind of like really was kind of up a creek and like not happy about it and also the manual for this training. So I thought hadn't arrived yet and I was like what am I going to do if I have the manual? I can't do the training. I need to do the training. And it was like so many things were kind of going awry, so many, just little things.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And then I had a moment where I stepped back and I was like what's going on? Yeah, Like what's going on, yeah, Like what is the universe telling me.
Speaker 3:Yeah, maybe there's something in the air, because even now that we're talking about this, like there's been a lot of resistance in my house, just about like homework, which kids always give resistance about homework, but also like the idea Again, you could find it anywhere, I'm sure, if you're looking for it. But just like what is this resistance? What is? This like boundary like boundary pushing and thing going on everywhere.
Speaker 3:And for those people that are just joining us on this episode. We live in Chicago, so picking up a prescription takes an hour. It just is like tough yeah.
Speaker 1:Unless it's like around the corner. Yeah.
Speaker 3:It's like hard you know, for all of our worldwide listeners that are out there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, maybe if you live in, like I don't know, kansas. Right, it's a little bit easier, just walk on over yeah, yeah, well, and I like what you're saying too, like I'm I think I actually I don't even know if this is related, but was really trying to stress and remind myself of the concept of like with clients and individual work in any kind of therapy work, like there's so much value and really intricately trying to get to know the issue there the situation and often I find, like the more we really patiently but like carefully, look at the issue kind of the guidance like arises even just within the client, like they might, when we really narrow, like so this is really what's bothering you this week and this is the way you're relating to it, Spontaneously, there's like yeah, I guess that is it and really what I need to do with that is, and they know, like their
Speaker 1:own values pop up, their own wise mind pops up and I I really was conscious of that this week, maybe because I had to be conscious of it myself to some extent. But yeah, like, can you be like patient and open with the issue, which is so hard? Oh, I like so often I'm like this can't be, I need this manual. I even said to josh I was like I don't feel safe without my manual. Like, going into like this new training with all this new information, it's overwhelming as it is. I'm not gonna get a weekend yeah, yeah, like resistance.
Speaker 1:And then I was even a little resistant to reading the required readings ahead of time. Even though I'm excited about the training. I was sort of like I don't want to do more work. I've done enough work yeah yeah, like that was yeah, resistance all over the place, resistance but that's.
Speaker 3:There was an article I read this week too that was talking about how the when you had mentioned the reading of the manual and you know so many of the things that we do as therapists and really in anything there's a repetition to it and yeah, it's a grind right like being a. A therapist is a profession where you constantly have to be learning and working on yourself and working on your craft and taking more trainings and reading more manuals and more books. And the article was basically saying and it kind of was using like Jerry Seinfeld as an example of, and I think it was like is the publication inccom Inc. Yeah, Inc.
Speaker 2:Is that like a magazine or online?
Speaker 3:magazine and the basic idea was like you don't just kind of like arrive at this, like there's just years, like Jerry Seinfeld is just like the repetition of like constantly going in front of people and constantly like having to do things, um, that are uncomfortable and there are long stretches where you you don't feel like you're getting anywhere with it right, and it's like kind of that perseverance and that resilience when you have those moments of like, oh, I don't want to do this or oh god, like I have to go back into this group or this session with you know a milieu that's really tough, like, and it's like, yeah, but that repetition, you got to stick to what you know, like there's something on the other side of that, that, that resiliency, but also like there's something on the other side of it that, like you have have weathered that and you come out of it with more tools, knowledge, experience, and the patients or clients probably benefit from that.
Speaker 3:Just steady, you know you're showing up, you're showing up, you're doing it. So that's kind of an adjacent thing. But that article makes me think about, like, just the repetitious nature and how some people bail on that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:When, actually, if you can engage with them or realize when it's happening and still go through it. There's a lot to be said about that.
Speaker 1:Totally Well, there is something in the air because it's you bringing that up. This week At some point in the week, maybe when I was procrastinating my required reading, I actually like came to this mantra, maybe after hearing something a client said that like I could was something I'm feeling, but I I was like I'm gonna go to this mantra this week. That was just like the discomfort is where the satisfaction is. And then because I really thought to myself, it's like if I spend a whole evening scrolling my fucking tiktok, that might be the first f-bomb, should I not, if we got that?
Speaker 3:we can take that out later or we can keep it in. We're adults. We're adults here who cares.
Speaker 1:We're adults here but like I could scroll that and like get such a like something from that right. Like seeing all these, I see a bunch of cooking videos or I'll see a bunch of like here's what's in style for the fall Like videos. I realized too how many things are there just to get you to consume. Oh, yeah. All it is is capitalism, is that?
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 1:Or any of the platforms, but it's like I could do and there's like definitely some kind of high I get from that. But, man, if when I put that phone down and like wash up to go to sleep, the dissatisfaction is profound and it's like sure I don't like feel this like call to open up this like textbook and read it, but when I'm engaged in reading it's an EMDR textbook, I'm doing an EMDR training and when I'm reading it and learning the method and understanding it, it is so invigorating once I'm inside of it and I'm like practicing in my head, doing it and learning the effects, and I'm so in awe of some of the things I'm hearing and also curious about other things, and it's such a deeply satisfying experience, even though it requires effort Like it does, to do that instead of just be like drooling into my phone.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 1:And I really was like need to remind yourself of, like some find some language to repeat to yourself that reminds you like this is where your satisfaction is. It's here. It's never going to be in the like mindless comfort thing yes totally, totally. So there is something in the air because your kids don't want to do the homework like because, oh I never wanted to do homework as a kid, did you? Did you like doing homework?
Speaker 3:oh, no, no it's like a trick. I always say, I think I pretended to be like. I think starting in sophomore year of high school. I think I tried to pretend like I was a studious type of student, be intellectual, but didn't put any of the effort into it.
Speaker 3:Really, yeah and I really did not start like truly like dedicating myself to like studying until I wasn't a bad student. But I just feel like I really didn't start that until like junior year, college, where because at that point I was like, if I really want to do what I want to do, I'm gonna going to have to go to graduate school, yeah. And so it was like I have to like start taking this a lot more seriously. Yeah, like because I didn't really necessarily mind not having the best grades and I still I don't mind that about myself at all. But like I was like okay, like this is a means to an end here, like I have to get a certain like if I want to get into a grad school that I actually want to go to, like I'm gonna have to do that you
Speaker 3:know so no, I didn't like it either, but I also think it was. It's so different because the way that my kids resist me is so different than the way like I resisted my parents, because my kids will just like, completely just be like no, like they're in there. Their first reaction is just so no, it's just like. Whereas me as a kid was kind of like I don't know how my parents are going to take this. How am I going to? Kind of it was more like sneaky, trying to weasel my way out of it because I felt like there was going to be like a harsher repercussion for it. And I feel like my kids, like they're just knee jerk response, like, feel like my kids like they're just knee-jerk response, like no, he has no, like almost as if they look at me. It's like this guy has no power yeah this guy is nothing easy
Speaker 3:no nothing in the hopper just yeah, blatantly no.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think you're. I think that's a trend with like well, like modern parenting I see this with my brother too like, and I think it should be like not just being this like stone wall right, you know exactly and being able to, like, like attuned to your kid, validate their desire and have boundaries. But it's like with that more complex approach, it's like much harder to enforce it's much harder to enforce.
Speaker 3:but it's also like I feel like it's like oh god. Sometimes I feel like a punching bag where I'm like I got nothing here. I got no power in this dynamic, or you know this system, because it's like like you know when, when they say no, it's like fine, but then after like the 10 no, it's like fine, but then after like the 10th, no, it's like I really got nothing, like what am I?
Speaker 3:you know, because you don't want to threaten them and be like well, I'll take this away from you, but sometimes like it's that point, like you want them to have that autonomy, to be like no, I don't want to do this and stuff like this.
Speaker 3:At the same time, it's like, yeah, and this is just one of those things you know, not like I'm teaching them radical acceptance, but it's one of those things that you just need to accept. Like homework is it sucks and it's hard. Yeah, and those are two things that neither one of them they don't like that. They have to do it, but it's also hard. So it's like there's another layer of like the resistance, where it's like, if it's just they didn't want to do it and it was easy, it would be a much better thing. But, like I'm having more conversations with them about like that's the whole point of school is to be difficult Not difficult to the extent that you don't know what you're doing. You need to be learning these things, but it is like stretching your mind, like you have to be trying things that you're not going to be good at.
Speaker 3:Like that's what school is, you know, or any type of learning, right Like anything you try, you're not going to be good at it right away. It's going to be hard to learn it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, or if you're good at it right away, it's like then you need to move on to something you're not good at, yeah.
Speaker 3:No, these are the conversations that sound all wise and good, like, and then again like what we talked about maybe last week was kind of like when they're in an emotional state, it's like I still think that that language is like useful and sometimes it's just not, you know cause. It's like they can't really hear that right now. But I'm still going to always try because I think hopefully what I'm doing is laying a foundation for some of those messages to they're seeping in somewhere maybe I don't really know. But yes, it's inkcom, let's clean that up. And it talks about pushing through or, better yet, embracing tedium. Boredom and repetition is often what allows ordinary people to accomplish extraordinary things. Yeah, so it kind of talks about-.
Speaker 1:God embracing tedium.
Speaker 3:Yeah, jeff Hayden was the author on that, but he references Jerry Seinfeld throughout and has some quotes in there. But just kind of like there's going to be long stretches of your life, right, if you want to really truly be, I guess whatever, have mastery in or something like that right, or be really good at it, like there's a lot of tedious things and people want they don't want it to be tedious, they don't want it to be like a grind, but that actually, like a lot of times, can create like greatness in a lot of ways, yeah, well, yeah, it's like I think of which therapy?
Speaker 2:which thing about therapy?
Speaker 1:yeah, therapy, the repetition and the repetition yes the repetition of therapy is what allows the comfort and then the like subconscious to come forth. So it's like it is so deeply essential. I I feel like that phrase like embracing tedium. I'm like that, I'm gonna I want to etch that on my forehead like that could be so liberating. To do, yeah, to really think, like when there's tedious moments, can I really luxuriate in them. And yeah, because, like it makes me think of my, when I learned transcendental meditation, my teacher, which he called a vedic meditation, he would like if I had have a, because I would.
Speaker 1:At the beginning, when you're learning it, you're doing all the meditations and then you'll meet with him and talk about like what is coming up, what's, how do I navigate this? Am I doing this right? Am I whatever helps you like process? And my teacher is very like spiritual and he I would say, like you know, like I, at first, when I was doing them, I was having these really profound insights and like my sleep was really intense and like it was great, it was like, and now it sort of feels like back to normal and I feel a little more and he's like that's what we call maintenance.
Speaker 1:He's like you can't always be changing at every moment, like you wouldn't be able to handle that yeah like you need the maintenance to set the stage for the growth and then you might explode into growth in one meditation have 10 insights, or sob uncontrollably and you know 20 after that where it's just pretty, pretty mundane yeah and that's like don't forget how important that mundanity is and I'll even use that with my clients where it's like we're in maintenance.
Speaker 1:You don't have to be exploding into growth every minute yes, or tearing down some core belief.
Speaker 3:That's a great way of saying it and I like the idea of the explosion of it because, yeah, you don't know, and it could be very profound very quickly. Because sometimes I'll say, like maintenance is progress that's the way I'll phrase it with patients or clients is like you're still progressing, even though in a maintenance phase it doesn't feel like you're really not, that you're not doing anything, but it's like, yeah, I'm just kind of like getting by or you know, and it's like yeah and that's progress, because things aren't getting worse for you.
Speaker 3:Like, you've built up a foundation right, and and that can be a little disheartening- because it doesn't feel like that. You know, because it doesn't feel like that you know it doesn't feel like.
Speaker 1:Well, I think it's almost the most impressive part of like any kind of recovery or healing because, it's like the least sexy you know, like where it's like hell, yeah, I just changed the way I relate to my, whatever it's like, and therapy is sexy it is the sexiest form of help we could give anyone.
Speaker 1:It's just yeah I mean, I feel so sometimes, like when, certain, when I my own therapy will have like an insight all at once it will feel like unbelievable euphoria yeah or just like peace or excitement or whatever. And yeah, there's a lot of times you're kind of like what the hell did I even talk about in there today?
Speaker 3:yeah, yeah and and then sometimes you have that and it's like I can't even like. And then, on the flip side, when you do have the insight, it's like I can't even drive home right now like because, like my head is so totally like from the session, like I need to sit in my car.
Speaker 2:the road I can watch, the road I can't pay attention to that.
Speaker 3:But there's also like man does that also and I feel like for me that's a very like, and I'm sure for most, if not all, therapists, that's such a meaningful interaction to have with somebody you're working with. It's one thing to have it for yourself 100 and then when they come to something that's like profound, it's like, yeah, we've been maintaining for this amount of time to continue this and now you have, you know, this insight or whatever, and it's like wow, that's the stuff that like then puts wind in your sails for another six months, totally you know, or whatever, totally yeah and yeah yeah because, like, obviously there needs to be growth, that happens.
Speaker 1:But yeah, so much is is maintenance and getting they say, like bringing it back to Freud. They say that's the point of like the five days of like psychoanalysis in a week and as as intense as it is, at like you get so comfortable that the conscious mind kind of is lulled, the ego Well, freud wouldn't say ego, but like the conscious mind is like lulled to sleep.
Speaker 3:And then that's where stuff.
Speaker 1:And that's where the real material that's blocking you comes out, okay. Which there's something to that. I think, like deep, deep comfort, can I mean? Sleep is like this where like you're so subconscious of your dreams and you know, really letting that come out like there's and repetition is so calming yeah but it's also, it can be frustrating, right when it's like boredom and tedium yeah like for your kids yeah but embracing it could create that calm yeah, but even in that I mean thinking about it from like a, you know, just developmental perspective, like there are, you know, you don't because you're with them every day.
Speaker 3:you don't maybe see all the time like the changes, but then one day all of a sudden they do something and you're like whoa, there's the burst. Yeah, it's like god. We've been talking about this thing for months. Whatever it is, you know, it could be as simple as like saying thank yous or, you know, like taking your cereal bowl and putting it in the sink, and then it's like you ask them repeatedly. It's the tedious nature of that and then all of a sudden it's like they just one day get up and do it and you didn't ask them and you're like, you dropped your whoa like that's crazy.
Speaker 3:You're like, that is like, and you know that stuff logically. But then when you see it in real time with your own kids, from my experience that is like a put a pin in that and like, yeah, like write something down about that, remember that moment because it's like you're you're planting all these seeds and doing all this, like is it going to grow? Is it going to grow, is it good?
Speaker 3:and then you see the growth and it's like oh yeah, okay, you know, like that's fulfilling, that can be totally, totally but, speaking of therapy like I'm glad that you had mentioned, like therapy being sexy because we're going to talk about it in movies yes. Yeah, yes, and I think movies, just overall, I don't know. I'm curious your thoughts on just general therapy in movies before we get into more specific things. But is there anything else that was coming up this?
Speaker 1:week. No, I think I totally would want to move into that because I think you know, like therapy in movies, I have such like a complex opinion of it because I feel like before I even saw a ton of therapy in movies or like I guess maybe like registered it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I in college maybe this was mostly in college had psych professors kind of shitting all over it. Like certain kinds of it.
Speaker 3:Like movies that had therapy in it.
Speaker 1:I should tell you I have a well one. I had one my actually my mentor that I did research with all throughout college was obsessed with um what's her face, the um what's her name? Famous lorraine brocco.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, uh, soprano sopranos, yeah, like t Obsessed with their sessions.
Speaker 1:He was obsessed.
Speaker 3:He was like they're so good. He was obsessed in the sense of okay, this is a realistic picture of what therapy is. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So he would show us scenes and I hadn't seen the show, so it was pretty tough for me to recognize how good it was yeah like what's the context here.
Speaker 1:So cause that show is so subtle and kind of like interesting, which I know that, but I was like hard, had a hard time following. But then another professor cause that was my abnormal psych professor and then my mentor and then my abnormal child psych professor would always talk shit about Robin Williams in Good Will Hunting. He'd be like. That's not an accurate portrayal of therapy, just saying it's not your fault, it's not your fault. It's not your fault, it's not your fault.
Speaker 3:And then was it just that scene that they had issues with, or they had issues with the entire kind of mostly what?
Speaker 1:I remember of it from that movie what I remember is that scene he was just like therapy is not what it looks like in the movies, was like his like yeah, intention behind that. But since then I don't know if I totally agree with him.
Speaker 3:Well, but isn't there also like, okay, isn't there a base level understanding maybe of people in the field that, yes, of course, therapy isn't what it looks like in the movies, right?
Speaker 3:so, like I, I feel like if you're really gonna die on that hill, it's like sure you could like poke at any probably movie that represents or show that represents because there was that in treatment show as well with gabriel burn like you could poke holes in any of it, right, but it's also like this is a product to keep people entertained, so of course, they're going to be like I'll play it loose a little bit here with it and it's probably not going to be the most accurate representation, but that's why I'm curious is like is it really like? I think there are some representations out there or at least even in segments where it's like no that actually is like that's pretty good right on on.
Speaker 1:Well, there's yeah, there's like segments I agree with you where, like really and I haven't seen that show, which I can't believe I haven't seen it, but that show couples therapy couples therapy people say. People say it's like the greatest show ever. And it's a real therapist. It's reality.
Speaker 3:Maybe we should do our homework.
Speaker 1:I know, oh, actually that's a great idea. We are going to watch an episode of couples therapy, or maybe we'll watch like one couple and a couple episodes that they're on because her name's Orna. I think it's Orna Goralnik. I keep hearing on podcasts. They're like I mean I could just watch her that there. I remember one therapist or one podcast I listened to. They were like that's a therapist.
Speaker 1:Okay, and I was like man, I gotta, I gotta see, we gotta see this thing um, yeah but yeah, like there are definitely, because I remember in big little lies there's a couple's therapist in a domestic violence situation and I remember like watching her and I was like this actress seems like she is a therapist, like this it felt even kind of the setting like this northern california or maybe it's southern california, but like this california therapist with this kind of the setting, like this northern california or maybe it's southern california, but like this california therapist with this kind of like woodsy cozy, like home.
Speaker 1:She's got a sweater. Yeah, like unassuming, but also like chic. It was like yeah, I was like wow, this is like it feels real yeah like someone you would encounter. Yeah, yeah, tell me what you think I think there's like.
Speaker 3:I think that there's just some really egregious like bad, yeah, representations of it. Yes, and for some reason my mind always goes to the movie the departed. Oh yeah, she's a psychiatrist, she's, but is she because they are like? I feel like there's also just like they made mistakes with. I don't know if this is true or not, because I haven't seen it in a while, but I feel like they're like you're a psychiatrist, but you have a PhD, which that makes no sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, she's prescribing meds.
Speaker 3:Right, but if you have a PhD, you're not really prescribing meds, right, you have to have an MD. So it's like I feel like I get stuck in that, but then also just like there's like a scene where she like throws like a pill at him, like across the table, or she like gives it to him and is like here you go, like take the pill, and then obviously, like you know, there's no boundaries because they end up sleeping with one another.
Speaker 1:But here's a question.
Speaker 3:It just is so, it just rings. So if I'm like thinking of bad therapy, I've seen in either movies or TV for some reason, and she gets so rattled by him Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, to Leo, well, okay, okay.
Speaker 3:I think everything I say back to him she's flesh and blood. I'm kidding, I'm kidding, I mean, if Leo walked in, of course.
Speaker 1:If Leo walked in, I would be like I can't work with you.
Speaker 3:Sorry, leo walked in. Of course no, but if leo walked in I would be like you can't, I can't work with him. Sorry he walks in or whatever, and she just has no like.
Speaker 2:Her bearings are complete and maybe that's.
Speaker 3:The point is like he's, so what like? So hot, he's a great cop who shot someone so like that's so attractive and that's why he's gotta go to like mandated, you know therapy yeah but it just she has like no, um, what I feel like is like self-control or even just control in the session or the room like it. Just so, there's just so much about. About it that is like and we'll, maybe we'll touch on that one in a different, in a different uh episode, but it was just a.
Speaker 3:That's what I but I think that there's been so many that I feel like have shown some warm, really compassionate I wouldn't say the whole movie maybe, but just like there are some really good representations out there, yeah totally oh, and that makes me think of the single best portrayal of therapy I've ever seen in a show, and I feel like nobody has seen this show.
Speaker 1:But wait, but back to the departed. I wonder what you think. I mean, maybe they were I think they were intending this to an extent like really showing a bad therapist like yeah, here's a person. Everyone in this movie is so effing tortured and yeah, and like kind of like their boundaries are so confused. It's kind of like a theme of the movie. Yeah, like which, where do I end?
Speaker 3:and they begin which that's fair, and I'll totally take egg on my face if, like, somebody worked on the departed was like, yeah, idiot, that's what we were trying to do, and at the same time, it's bad therapy like. At the same time, it's like okay, great, like let's hear more about her story and why she's so broken and why she can't like yeah, function, uh, yeah she's writing prescriptions without an md right or whatever, if that's truly the case.
Speaker 3:So, um, so yeah, I mean I'll totally own if it's like. No, that was like part of the whole. Like you know, everybody in this movie is dealing with so many things and is broken and they're going to find comfort in one another, in their brokenness or whatever, but it just yeah. I was like this isn't the best.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, no, you're, you're so right. The one I'm thinking of. Maybe actually we should, even for a later podcast, watch at least this episode, because it's a show called wanderlust. It's a british show with tony collette who is? She's great the queen of everything she's great but she um, she's a therapist, she's a couple's therapist, she could be a therapist.
Speaker 3:I feel like there's something about her that's incredible, that like embodies that, yeah, like gravitas, but also like accessibility.
Speaker 1:She's so, yeah, she's one of those people where you don't understand why she's so captivating, like you cannot tear your eyes away for sure this woman, but she, um, is a therapist and she, basically, she and her husband decided to have an open marriage. They have like three adult children it's a, really and they kind of go into like this, basically like the sex life, love lives of all the characters, the kids and the parents it's so interesting, it's so well done, it's funny and it's like fun to watch.
Speaker 1:It's great. It's on netflix. But she has a therapist and some of the episodes they do her sessions that's right her therapist and the actress who does it. I mean chills even thinking about it it was so good. We have to watch that episode at some point. You'll love it. I don't want to spoil too much.
Speaker 3:But that's like such a great and again I don't consume enough content to know if it's out there but like that is. So I mean it's kind of like what we're doing here. It's like we're talking about the work we do but we're talking about the work on ourselves. It's like how great is that to show a therapist being a therapist but then getting their own therapy and like working on themselves. You know, which I feel like in treatment tried to do that just a little bit with like, almost like consultation, or like he had a therapist toward the end, towards the end. Yeah, I just didn't feel like that show ever really landed for me. Necessarily, it felt a little bit. The sessions felt a little bit too disjointed, but anyway, there was a lot of good stuff in there too. But but I love that idea of like and then the therapist is doing their work and what's coming up for them yeah, totally, yeah it's friday night, it's movie night yeah it's movie night.
Speaker 3:It's it's movie night. We're doing something real current from 1980. Yeah, maybe for ordinary people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's perfect it's not current, so yeah, totally, yeah, well, that, maybe that makes it better. It's like not too spoilery oh, you know what? I mean like if we're spoiling this for people.
Speaker 3:I'm sorry, but like one, we don't have any listeners. Two, no one's heard it. Two, you're 44 years past this when this movie was made.
Speaker 1:So uh, you know what I'm not gonna feel bad for you I'm not gonna tell you to turn off the podcast I imagine you get halfway through and I'm like, wait, I've decided I actually don't want spoilers we haven't seen in a while. I'm gonna go back. Yeah, I want to see what happens.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, this is a good way for us to honor Donald Sutherland. He died this year he did, and he's epic in the film.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he's so good, he's the dad.
Speaker 3:Everybody is so good in the film and. Judd Hirsch. Judd Hirsch is amazing as a therapist, Like straight up. Judd hirsch is just smoking in the therapy sessions. Would you kind? Of forget, like salman uchin you just kind of like forget that was just so everywhere, like the smoking of it all, yeah, I think like freud and jung were smoking, like it's just like.
Speaker 3:It's just like everywhere yeah, like gas trays all over the table crazy it I I had. I saw this in grad school and I'm pretty sure I've seen scenes of it before that. But like I haven't watched it in so long and I had such a different experience watching it, but anyway, I had to watch it in two sittings. It was like two watching it with the lens of thinking about it from like more of okay, I'm going to talk about this in a little bit more of a therapy thing. It was exhausting. Yeah, there's so much in that movie.
Speaker 1:Totally yeah.
Speaker 3:And every character. My mind is just like oh my God, like what is going, like we need more information from this person, because you just want to know how they got here right. You just want to know how they got here right. I mean, you know where it starts, because it kind of descends into like this family is just crushed by this huge tragedy and trauma.
Speaker 1:And the beginning. How did they do it in the movie? Because in the book it's already happened.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly so movie starts and basically the setup is right. Like affluent Lake Forest family.
Speaker 1:Oh, they're in Chicago.
Speaker 3:Yes, lake Forest, which there might have been a little bit of a dig about another North Shore community, but I know I'll drop that in, but the premise is right. Affluent family in Lake Forest. Premise is right affluent family in Lake Forest. And it's kind of set up. As you know, the family dynamic is just kind of like what it is they're at dinner, it's kind of awkward and things like that. But like Timothy Hutton's kind of he's, you know, the brother, he's Conrad and Conrad's having a hard time like sleeping and things like this. So you get flashes or images of like something happened right. And then you know kind of Donald Sutherland's kind of like well, are you going to go talk to the doctor? And things like that. So it's kind of set up as like everything has already happened.
Speaker 3:Yeah it's blurry, it's blurry and then, as the movie unfolds, what we come to find out is and I think they actually introduced this first, I think they actually introduced this first that Conrad, who's Timothy Houghton's character has attempted and was hospitalized because he attempted suicide.
Speaker 1:Yes, Because I remember oh my God, this is so funny when you suggested ordinary people, the thought that came to my mind was this line from the book where he says he meant business because he cut his wrists vertical, vertical way. Which is funny because now that we're actual therapists, like cutting your wrist almost like never successfully causes a completed suicide.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But that was the suggestion at the time in the book, that it was like a very serious suicide. Yes, Absolutely.
Speaker 3:And so then you know, you come to realize that they've lost the son, but you don't exactly know what happened and they kind of do that reveal more. Lost the son, but you don't exactly know what happened and they kind of do that reveal more towards the end. But throughout it's sprinkled throughout, right? You know that the son, who is the older brother of timothy hutton, who through these different ways they kind of like show that you know he was the firstborn high achiever, has a lot of trophies in his room, right?
Speaker 3:so it's not explicitly said, but also, this family dynamic is just so, because mary tyler moore is like ice yes, cold mother like just and can't even look at timothy hutton, can't even engage with timothy hutton, and he wants to talk about the older brother I think the older brother's name is bucky and so he wants to like talk about him and she just can't go there. She can't go there with Donald Sutherland. Donald Sutherland is trying to understand Timothy Hutton and then that causes friction between Mary Tyler Moore and Donald Sutherland, because he's trying to attune and understand more. She is not having it. She's like why can't we just move past this? Why can't you know so rigid and over controlled?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and you can tell in the house too, just the way the house is set up. It's like a museum direction and there's just so many little things where like they, like timothy hutton is trying to like connect with her mary tyler moore and like he asks her something and they're kind of having this casual, almost, almost conversation in the hallway and he like leans, I'm like I don't even know what it is, it's just like a piece of furniture. It's like I don't know an armoire or something I don't even know, and she's like, oh, no, like, and he has to like get off it.
Speaker 1:It's like just like yeah, yeah, what a subtle nod to like. She's clearly dealing with this with some like obsessive traits. Absolutely yeah, control and the control.
Speaker 3:Yeah yeah, it's almost as if the family is trying to in the very beginning of the movie, just trying to hold on to some sense of like normality or getting things back to normal and I was also curious your thoughts on this.
Speaker 3:When it comes to just movies in general and the arc of a movie, it's almost as if like, yes, shit has happened, but this is like, this is the precipice of like okay, we're either gonna be like just not talk about this and be normal, or this is just, this is gonna descend into just like chaos, and it really does kind of descend the family system, um, into chaos. But I, there's something about me that likes, when a movie kind of starts at like almost like this is the peak of something and now it's just gonna go bad, I don't know, do you like that?
Speaker 1:no, maybe that's dark for me.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like, and then something happens, and then it like it it's if things are bad and then, like we, we come out of it and then things are good at the end. No, I'm with you Sometimes I like it where it's like okay, what happened, what's going on, this is a choice point, and then it's just kind of completely like.
Speaker 1:Well, I like that climax sort of, or a climax being off screen, because I think, what then you zoom in on? How are these characters relating to each? Other and themselves, which I love and I think like bad things, tough things, like all this can happen anywhere. It's like, how do you understand them? How do you, yeah, show up to them that they zoom in on which?
Speaker 3:is like so interesting yeah, so the the premise is you, this tragedy happens. We're coming out of this hospitalization and Donald Sutherland appears to be a very warm, empathic father trying to get his son to visit a psychiatrist, so the therapy really bases itself around. Then Timothy Hutton eventually calling and visiting Dr Berger, who is played by Judd Hirsch.
Speaker 2:The king.
Speaker 3:He's amazing and I actually I think I counted I think he sees him in this which I kind of went back because I was like wait, how many sessions were there within the course of the movie? I think there might have been five or six times.
Speaker 1:Yeah, do a lot of therapy. They do in the book and the movie they do and it was great.
Speaker 3:They so he. He went there maybe five or six times and even there's a wonderful scene and I thought that this was a great representation too where donald sutherland ends up going and talking to the psychiatrist. But the first thing I noticed about this the first meeting when Timothy Hutton goes and sees him is the office setup.
Speaker 1:Yeah, remind me so glass.
Speaker 3:The office is like he's got this two-door thing where he's got his name, dr Berger, on one door and so Timothy Hutton kind of knocks and then this other door opens up. And he's got like this like two door thing where he's got like his name, dr burger, on one door and so timothy hudden kind of knocks and then this other door opens up and he's like, yeah, everybody always does that, just come in over here. Um, but it's like one of those offices where it's like it's an office but it also has like a bathroom kind of attached to it.
Speaker 3:you can kind of see like the sink or whatever so it almost looks like a place where, like he would almost like not live there, but like if he needed to. He could like crash there or something like that Like it's so hard working.
Speaker 1:That is so I have like a visceral feeling of comfort hearing that, because, melissa, my therapist's office used to be like that it was like this tiny little, and she had her own bathroom, her own tiny little microwave in there.
Speaker 3:And I would go in there. And he's making coffee in there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, in there, yeah, and I would go, and he's making coffee in there, yeah, be so.
Speaker 3:It's like almost like a homey kind of feel to it. But one thing I noticed that I really liked right off the bat was I cannot stand when, like, there's some sort of like therapy, and even in real life, when there's a desk in between the person and the patient or the person the client?
Speaker 1:like nuts like. Was there a desk in between the person and the patient or the person and the client? Like nuts Like. Was there a desk? In the movie it was off to the side though.
Speaker 3:Oh, good the way it should be set up the way it should be.
Speaker 1:It's his office. He's got his office. He's a psychiatrist.
Speaker 3:He's got his desk and he's got like the file but he brings it over. There's like a small coffee table in between them. But that was the first thing I noticed, because whenever there's therapy in represented, I always want to know what is the setup. Yeah, because that barrier that that desk creates, that you know, and we've talked about this too tables, or patients like in group having tables to write on or having their notebooks or their journals out. What do you.
Speaker 3:What do you feel about that? I think I know how you feel about that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, it's funny because now that I'm further away from group I have to like remember my feelings on that. But I think what we noticed, as I recall, was I mean it often was a bit diagnostic, yes, meaning if someone had a lot of like props, you know they, it was very protective and sort of very protective and also could be as protective.
Speaker 1:Things are supposed to be, distracting, yeah, like, kind of like be an actual barrier, even if, even if the thing itself is like a table, I put my notebook on and take notes on, even sometimes the note-taking itself. It's like this is not school, like yeah this is a place to just open yeah and like let let things unfold, and like I think for a lot of people that's terrifying. Yeah, and just not okay yeah, I'm not judging it.
Speaker 3:I do think, though, it is a barrier totally. I think you're already put it's like a wall, like you're putting that table in front of you, you're putting that desk. There's something that's not vulnerable about it, right Well?
Speaker 1:but then, if you reverse it, I think the therapists, which often it is psychiatrists using the desk are themselves not being so vulnerable.
Speaker 2:For sure.
Speaker 1:Like I need to be on authority, like principle, you know, yes, and maybe there's a fear there right. Of like getting on the level of the client and really connecting. Yes, which?
Speaker 3:I think in Ordinary People as I continue to watch the movie and I had to watch it in two settings because or two sittings because it is an emotional movie Totally it is heartbreaking in so many ways and it's so well done and so great. But what I noticed is that every scene they were in different positions in the office and almost Judd Hirsch, dr Berger, was getting closer to Timothy Hutton Physically but also as they were building rapport, which I thought was a really I'm sure it was intentional, but like the fact that they just weren't sitting in the same seats felt very like dynamic, totally it felt like he maybe I'm looking too into it, but like in that sense judd hirsch was like getting literally closer right, like Like there was the closeness of him, timothy Hutton opening up, but also Judd Hirsch like getting like physically closer and like it's okay because his mom, timothy Hutton's mom, is so cold and will not touch him and will not be close to him.
Speaker 3:And there's this heartbreaking scene of like the holidays coming around and Donald Sutherland wants to take a picture of Timothy Hutton and Mary Tyler Moore and she, like, refuses and she like just will not do it with him and it's just like she will not give him that like attention or that love.
Speaker 1:And so even seeing like that physical space that's always one of the things I first noticed when I see therapy on TV is like the physical space and how people are relating to the physical space and also like one another you know, and how clever too like I mean you you could imagine it may be like a more earlier in their process therapists might oh the mother is so cold like they need someone warm, and then some clients would maybe right away want someone warmer you know that, of course, can be the case, but also like recognizing it's possible that, even though they don't like this, it's familiar and comfortable in some way so we start there and we slowly move together, or sussing that out clinic using your clinical judgment with that, but I can't help because I can't leave well enough alone.
Speaker 1:Leave it alone. The meta text right of like. We don't go into the mom as much Like I'd love to see the movie where she's the protagonist. I'd be curious because I think there is a feminist narrative of like what is it like to lose a child and then have a remaining child and be able to relate to them?
Speaker 3:Yes, 100% on that. I think that I mean we have to take into context of like when it was made and things like that, and not that it's an excuse, but like yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And that was the thing I think before we even started recording today was like this movie is so daunting to take in all at once for me, and especially trying to think about it before coming into the podcast, knowing that this is what we're going to talk about, because there's so much to unpack about everybody, because I want to know how she came to be like, how mary tyler moore came to be and you get glimpses of that because there is a scene where her mother is is there and is kind of like you can tell very stern.
Speaker 3:Same type of thing also, very much like when mary taylor more shares with her mother. Yeah, he's timothy hutton's going to a psychiatrist and he's like, oh well, who is he? Where is he like where in the world? And she's like she says highland park, which I feel like was a little bit of a dig at highland park. I don't know enough about the north shore or anything like that Well, yeah, from Lake Forest, that would be.
Speaker 1:That's ridiculous. It's like saying oh, into Beverly Hills, I'm in.
Speaker 3:Because the mom doesn't really have a reaction. Like Mary Tyler Moore says, well, he is located in Highland Park and the grandma's like, hmm, and then there's even like some, unfortunately there's some like anti-Semitism in there.
Speaker 2:Sure Totally.
Speaker 3:Because she's like well, what's his name? And she said Dr Berger, and the mom's like oh, jewish, oh she says that, she says that oh. I didn't remember that. And then Mary Tyler Moore says, well, or you know, could be German or something you know tries to like play it off play it off but you're seeing this transgenerational. Oh, the mom's trying to deny that.
Speaker 1:The therapist is jewish.
Speaker 3:No, she just kind of says well, he could be jer. I think she's just trying to like dissipate, yeah, yeah either or just like move on from it, or you know now, knowing the who knows who the mom is, and so, um, so it's just.
Speaker 3:I definitely want to know more about mary tyler moore's story. I want to know more about Mary Tyler Moore's story. I want to know how this came to be, and there are flashbacks of her with both children the one that died, bucky and Conrad, and she seems in a better place, but we just don't get to know enough. Was she still emotionally distant?
Speaker 3:Was all of her and Donald Sullivan will allude to this like maybe all of her love. And donald sullivan will allude to this like maybe all of her love was just given to bucky and because it was a firstborn or and that's kind of like this excuse making type of thing maybe. But one of the things too that I noticed in the first scene is just almost like the irreverence sometimes that judd hirsch he's so warm but he's also like meeting Timothy Hutton where he's at, and I so love that, because we talk about irreverence in DBT and how effective it can be right. The idea of like humor, sarcasm at times, and there's this quote where you know Timothy Hutton's like I want to be in more control, and right away Judd Hirsch is like yeah, I'm not really big on control and it's kind of like.
Speaker 2:Next question Like you know, like just like not really big on that.
Speaker 3:Right, but just kind of like him meeting, not just being like a doormat for Timothy Hutton, also kind of like ratcheting it up a little bit, which I liked.
Speaker 1:I love that and especially another thing with like clinical judgment, but it's like not always having to like it sounds funny but not always having to unpack everything. Sometimes it's like we're not doing that here, right, and knowing when to do that is great. To just redirect versus always open up, I think.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's interesting and it can go wrong. I'm sure I've done it where it's gone wrong, I think in a moment.
Speaker 3:It does, because then he realizes, timothy Hutton, there's not a lot of buy-in there.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And he kind of ends that first session by saying well, he says you know, control is a tough nut to crack, so if you want to do that, you've got to meet with me twice. So it's like he's telling him he doesn't do it. But then he's also saying I'm losing him, like in that span. He's saying like he's not going to come back. So he's like let me, you know, he's already thinking five steps, 10 steps ahead. He's like, okay, I'll give him that, like let's start there, and at least that's a starting place, right, and then we'll see if we can loosen that up, right. And it's also like him maybe I don't know, maybe this is too much, but maybe Judd Hirsch relinquishing a little bit of control and showing him like, okay, I'll give you your control right now.
Speaker 3:Right, come back and meet with me two more times. But that first initial session, I even feel like I rewatched it and I was like the space. And you know, judd Hirsch has on the cardigan the tie.
Speaker 2:He's smoking a cigarette.
Speaker 3:I mean, it's just like wow, that was therapy back then.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like this and his office is kind of like messy you know, and he's got like the messy intellectual.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and he's got like shit everywhere.
Speaker 3:Oh sorry.
Speaker 1:Edit yeah, anything like shit everywhere. Oh sorry, edit it out um yeah, and that out um. Josh knows I my therapist is jewish, josh is jewish. I mean just yeah, it's the most wonderful thing, it is yeah no, because I think even though that's a stereotype, I think and I know this with like my partner, josh is jewish and his family there is a very like a lot of candor and a lot of warmth, which is like an interesting experience for me and I love it I really think it's great and and, yeah, that in the form of a therapist, I think is can be so incredible.
Speaker 1:I'm sure, like some, I'm sure judd hirsch in his career in this as this character.
Speaker 2:I forget dr burger you know, I came across clients who didn't, didn't jive with the um.
Speaker 1:You know more like bold or sarcastic, yes, but also like there's.
Speaker 3:There's a world in which, like those, just aren't his right clients and I think what the way it works too in this movie is. There's a way that if you only saw him with timothy hutton in these sessions, that might be a little abrasive. You'd be like, oh, this guy like is just like abrasive he's irreverent. I think it was really well done that they showed a scene with him, with donald sutherland completely different way he's acting, he's meeting because donald sutherland's giving him and really putting himself out there yeah, and there's no irreverence from judd hirsch, from dr burger yeah so it's like it to me.
Speaker 3:I felt like that was also a powerful scene, not just with the content they were talking about, but it was also like, oh okay, this guy like knows how to, he's experienced, he knows how to meet his patients and what's going to be effective. Not that it's perfect, but maybe he did need to be a little bit more irreverent with a young adult emerging adult right who's?
Speaker 3:ambivalent, who's ambivalent and who's also saying I'm a straight shooter and he's like, okay, if you want it straight, I'll give it to you straight. Donald Sutherland comes in, has a little bit of trepidation, a little bit more awareness, just given life, and he really, you know, dr Burgeard-Hirsch just takes more of a passive kind of listening role in that, with just a few probing questions, which I thought was really nice, because then it kind of shows like, yeah, this is like a more, you know, dynamic therapist than just like he just goes to the well and is sarcastical. You know dynamic therapist than just like he just goes to the well and is sarcastic all the time Right you know it's like, because he could have done that too.
Speaker 3:And it's like well that wouldn't have been useful, or even that much of a realistic picture.
Speaker 1:Yeah, reminds me of the kind of podcasters we are.
Speaker 2:Yeah, a hundred percent, not always or ever.
Speaker 3:I said it was just up saying a hundred percent and I say it all the time One of the things that I love too that he said and this was in the second scene in therapy Timothy Hutton says well, I'm, you're my doctor, I'm supposed to feel better, right. And he's like super upset. And Judd Hirsch just says not necessarily. And I thought that was like, because how many times do our clients and patients come to us and say I just want to feel better, yeah, and it's like, yeah, okay, and like you need to also like be better at feeling any feeling yeah, right, like that's what we want to get to, and if that amounts to you feeling better at times in your life, okay, but not necessarily.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:So I really liked that little nugget too.
Speaker 1:I love that. Yeah, and that's an interesting way to handle it. I mean, there's like 1 trillion ways to handle that question, but I like that. I think that's good in its own way, like even challenging that notion, like I'm supposed to feel better.
Speaker 3:And you're supposed to do it for me. Yeah, you know like I'm supposed to come here and you rescue me and you rescue me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah and you know like who among us hasn't wanted that, oh, yes, you know, like all of us All, of us but it's funny to want it and then go through real therapy experiences and recognize like I'm sure this was much better. Yeah, I didn't need to fix X. I needed to really grow larger than this thing, as Jung would say, we don't fix our problems, we grow larger than them. You know like come to understand myself in this context and then more deeply understand myself.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And yeah, it's like is that process going to be painless?
Speaker 3:no, no, and that's part of the. Their process in this movie is just to get I mean, that's kind of like the bulk of it is to just get timothy hud and he's so detached, which is probably also transgenerational what's been modeled to him but just has, and after the trauma of his brother's passing and also just trying to convince me like he does not feel he cannot feel anything. Right, it's just, he wants that control, he wants to just not feel anything.
Speaker 1:Well, I I've worked with that presentation before and really like I see it often as like they've learned to put feeling outside of their awareness as a protective. This would be like in parts work. It's like you have a part that has come to take those feelings outside of awareness, so that you can be lovable to your mother.
Speaker 3:Is that like a firefighter or something like that? Yeah, it can be, yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, it can be a um, a what's like a manager you know where it's like you kind of super intellectualize everything or you just shut down, or you're kind of like oh, I forgot what we were talking about. You know even things like that can be. These like very subtle parts of you that come in and close it down, and it's like that. That happened for a reason and if he has a very cold mother and needs the approval, as everyone does of their mother.
Speaker 1:You may learn that. How do I mirror her to get her love?
Speaker 2:how do?
Speaker 1:I you know, or how do I deal with these feelings that she's not going to help me deal with?
Speaker 3:yes, yeah, I shut him down and I think that the maybe getting back to the idea of like more of her story feminist perspective. I also did like that later on and this might have been in the fourth or the fifth session that he has with him. Oh yeah, what is happening, neighbors? I think?
Speaker 2:their dog probably got into something.
Speaker 1:Oh no, it's either like a bears game or the dog do they need therapy? Oh, no, I'm, we're available.
Speaker 3:I'm just kidding we'll invite them in as guests. Um, the dr burger you know, um really puts out there for him, uh, timothy hutton's character like who to forgive, and and you know there's kind of like this well, can he, can timothy hutton forgive himself, but also can he forgive like people in his life, right? And and one of the people is his mother, and timothy hutton says am I supposed to forgive her for not loving me? And he was like no, no, no, that's not it. She loves you. He says maybe you could recognize your mom's limitations and don't blame her for not loving you more than she's able. And I thought that that was really, really like. Your mom has a story too here, and they don't go into like super. You know a lot of depth with that, but I did like because it could have been very easy to paint the mom as the villain.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And like this is the reason you are who you are.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Or any. You know, it could have gone any number of ways where it painted her. I just really feel like that was a very poignant thing for him to reflect back, that it's like you know what, like she loves you, she does love you. It's maybe not getting you what you need and it's not the way you would like to be loved, right, but she does love you. Yeah, and that was a scene where I was like, ok, I got to pause and take a break from this, because it was just like I had to sit with that Totally when it was like those people in our lives.
Speaker 3:You know that we want them to love us a certain way yeah, totally and it's like we keep going back to that. Well, we keep wanting them to like show up for us in a certain way, and I have people in my life like that and and it's like, can you forgive them? But also like recognize that it's not that they don't love you. It's like this is maybe what they're capable of yeah, that's so hard. Yeah, totally well sorry I rambled on about no. No, it was just a very powerful, that is so powerful.
Speaker 1:I've heard I had forgotten about that and you know like it makes me think of. I heard another therapist say this once in, like some kind of lecture or something they said you know your parents can only take you as far as they've gone and I was like, oh wow, that's so interesting and there's a compassion that can come right out of that. You know where it's like expecting someone to guide you into territory they haven't navigated. You know they're not refusing because they don't love you.
Speaker 3:There's not a knowledge, there's not an ability to be a guide there and express in that way yeah, see this movie hits so different having watched it because I haven't watched it in a long time. But now, as you watch it, as a parent, I'm thinking about going both ways. You know where I'm at right now with my parents, but also I'm thinking about being a parent.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And it's like even that idea is kind of like daunting and frightening, like I'm only going to be able to take my kids so far. You want the best for them, right, and everything like that. And certainly, like you know, I have limitations, of course, but it's like yeah. Yeah, I'm only going to be able to take him so far. Right, right, yeah, right.
Speaker 1:And also the other side, where it's like they are in a way supposed to go beyond you or go away from you in different places and like can you like confront the pain of that which his mother couldn't? But yeah, you know, there's's a, there's a famous like almost like therapy retreat. It's actually kind of like a celebrity thing these days, but my therapist actually did it is what leo there back to leo really he probably, well, he probably needs to go on the rumors I've heard.
Speaker 1:But no, I think it's like it's's called the Hoffman process.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 1:And like I've heard celebrities talk about it and my therapist talked about it and I I read part of the manual and cause I thought it was interesting or if it was like a recommendation for clients. I mean, it's somewhat expensive, so it would have to be a client with like a lot of resources, but unless they have they have some scholarships, I think. But a big piece was like learning to forgive your parents and they're what they said is like if you don't forgive your parents, you will never forgive yourself. And I was like, oh wow, isn't that so interesting?
Speaker 1:Now we're like any MDR what I'm being trained in now the forgiveness of self would allow for the forgiveness of parents when you access traumatic memories. So it's like you could different philosophies go from different angles, but it's an interesting concept.
Speaker 3:So wait. So the concepts differ in the sense of who's giving forgiveness or who's being forgiven first.
Speaker 1:Who's being tackled first.
Speaker 3:Yeah, got it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally. But yeah, that's so interesting and I like that he really just has that conversation. You know, like what would it look like?
Speaker 3:yeah, to like accept her limitations yeah, and he also says what my last note here was like maybe she's afraid to show you how she feels, um, which isn't an excuse. Uh, I don't think he was offering it as an excuse, but also, like you know, there's fear there for her to emote for some reason.
Speaker 1:So maybe, but you know like it's funny because now, like with the ifs stuff and like the cmdr and it's like calling it fear to me almost is it's not naming the profoundness of the repression Like there's mothers, like that. It is not even in their capacity consciously to do that. It's like it's so buried that they need so much of their own therapy to even awaken that part of themselves.
Speaker 1:Like almost like fear, like I can't go down that escalator. I'm scared it's. It's so much like divorced from consciousness that it's like this has been shut down yeah and it's gonna take like the motherboard to get it back online. You know like yeah but I see that that it's the healing for him either way, the way he phrased yes, I will say overall.
Speaker 3:I think if people are looking for like what I think is some very helpful representations of some therapeutic things, I think ordinary people is a great and it's just a great movie overall.
Speaker 1:So good, and the book is so good too everybody is amazing in it.
Speaker 3:And the last thing I will say is how do we feel about because I think it also depends on the context of the movie. Because at the end, when Timothy Hutton comes to this breakthrough and really divulges exactly what happened when his brother died, and it's this tragic thing where they were both on a boat, they were in a storm, timothy Hutton was holding on to his brother, died and it's this tragic thing, where they were both on a boat, they were in a storm, timothy Hutton was holding onto his brother, his brother couldn't hold on any longer. Timothy Hutton ends up surviving it, which Judd Hirsch has this great thing where he kind of like tells him like, well, maybe you were just stronger than your brother, have you ever considered that Right? And at the same time you know they have this and then they embrace and I know a lot of people will say, well, people don't hug their therapists or things. You know people kind of have like a reaction to like a more like the physicalness.
Speaker 1:Yeah, physical touch.
Speaker 3:The physical touch Right, and I was just curious your thoughts on that because I there can be genuine embrace in in, especially with discharge, I think oh, I think, with discharge, with discharge. You're, you're, you've come on this journey with someone you know and and we don't know the therapy that's going to happen after this, like, but it kind of feels like a final session for them. So if there was a knock on this movie, maybe it was like, yeah, you know, therapists don't really like hug their patients or something like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because that would be like strict rules Strict rules of engagement or non-engagement.
Speaker 2:Like you don't touch your patients.
Speaker 3:you don't touch your, you know. But I think we've had experiences where there are patients and connections that, yeah, it doesn't happen all the time, but like that that feels again, especially with like a discharge you're not going to see this person again, like we've gone through a lot together.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I usually like if the client themselves asks for a hug, or like if I, in my own clinical judgment, sense that a client and I'll admit I'll probably do this more often with women and female identity clients but if I can sense that they may want that for me from their body language or the way they talk. I may say like I'm totally open to a hug, but I also want to respect your boundaries you know, but I can tell you I feel like we've gone a long way and I feel like it's.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, and some of them, will you know, say, oh, we can do a long way, and I feel like it's you know. And some of them, will you know, say oh, we can do a handshake or we could whatever, and then, some are like I want to talk to you the whole time or whatever, and that can be.
Speaker 3:Certainly should be client led, obviously not us looking for it. But I think when it comes to you know, because there have been so many bad representations in movies of like just I I mean people having sex with their patients and things like that, right, um, but this felt, you know, a little bit more, uh, you know, kind of authentic in the movie. But I know some people really bristle at that where they're like what kind of therapist would do that or like that doesn't happen.
Speaker 3:But I think if you're looking for therapy in a movie and it's just a gem, it's old. I hope I didn't ruin the ending. Sorry, it's been out. Movie and it's just a gem, it's old. I hope I didn't ruin the ending. Sorry, it's been out for 44 years, it's totally still worth actually watching those scenes. It's totally still worth it.
Speaker 1:Is it wise? Do we want to come up with an? Is it wise? Yeah?
Speaker 2:what would be a good, is it?
Speaker 3:wise. So last week we talked about buying art for people. Yeah, this week we are going to explore. Is it wise?
Speaker 1:or how wise is it to have a?
Speaker 3:wedding. Yes, so we're in two different places with this.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I have been married now for 11 years.
Speaker 1:Thank you very much.
Speaker 3:Thank you, 11 years and you are about to get married.
Speaker 1:Yeah, josh and I are engaged and we're planning a wedding right now, so yeah, and everybody who listens to the podcast is invited.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you guys are invited. They're all invited. Yeah, they're in the mail.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, but yeah, we're really in the thick of planning and even though it's what is it Probably seven months or eight months from now? We've planned most of it, most of the big things. No, here's something I want to know yeah.
Speaker 3:Because I'm more than 11 years removed from this.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Is it truly that and we talked about this when we're thinking about wise mind, right, there's like wise is kind of, you know, rational, reasonable and emotional at the same time. But is this more of the pendulum swing from emotional to rational?
Speaker 1:to emotional to rational, where we're missing that wise place or yeah, for me a lot, that's a great question, because I think that's exactly it that like you'll start with, like rational decisions right right, like what makes sense here to do. That was.
Speaker 3:That was an amazing that was an amazing delivery, like what makes sense here like that's a great I love that.
Speaker 1:That's great, it is anyway and then it's like it devolves because you know, of course, like there's a lot of people involved, there's a lot of like needs and also like concerns, so many decisions to make, so many, and like it starts, I think everyone starts so innocent, Like I just want to celebrate. I mean, I'm obsessed with Josh. I love him so much I could explode and I really, at the end of the day, I just want to be married to Josh. I love him so much I could explode and I really, at the end of the day, I just want to be married to Josh, and yet decisions about chairs can bring you to your knees.
Speaker 3:I that is so real because the the decisions you think are going to be easy end up not.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Because you go into it and you're like, yeah, napkins, great, pick this one. But then it turns somebody has a question or somebody has an opinion that you didn't ask for. Yeah, and do people. Is there ever somebody who goes into it and is like I really want a complicated wedding?
Speaker 1:No, I mean, that's great. I really just want to make this as difficult as possible.
Speaker 2:I really want a complicated wedding.
Speaker 3:Because what I hear more often than not is people like we want it really simple, and then you speak to them three months and then another three months and then everything has become so complicated. And that was even my experience where it was like, oh my God, not only is there the decision fatigue, but it's just like nothing is simple.
Speaker 1:I feel like totally nothing is, and it's like even every decision really ricochets into 10 other decisions and it's even it's like okay, we live in Chicago, my family most of my family's in Chicago, we love it here, we identify with this place. Maybe we'll live here forever and so we want to get married in Chicago. And, yeah, we want to get married in the city. I grew up at the very north edge of the city. We want to do that. We like the city. Okay, that I mean that changes the price tag significantly.
Speaker 3:And it changes the price tag per day. You want to get married. Yeah, because certain days are just astronomically more expensive than other days. Yeah, if you want to reserve a space, or yeah. So it's not even like, okay, we've decided in the city. It's like, well then, you got to pick a day.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And it's like different days require different money.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and there's really like so few people our age I mean, we're 35 too, we're not 25 that have the money to throw their own wedding the kind of money these days that is required. It's like so then really you need help from somewhere. And then, of course, like it's only right that that be, that those people have a say and get to decide things to an extent.
Speaker 1:And then it's like even just even if you're well-meaning, which I think we have been to just like integrate all the voices both about like practical decisions and more emotional ones just spelling all that out right now I'm like, yeah, no wonder it's so emotional and tough and yeah and you could easily lose sight of, like just what I said, that like I love josh so much, I just want to be married to him well, there's the wisdom right there, there's the wise mind right, yeah totally, and it's like and you know I'll even we'll talk about this Like I do, like I'm into like design a bit and like fashion and I I get joy out of that stuff.
Speaker 1:So of course I'm going to be like into it with my wedding dress or and that is important Totally, like how I do my hair and whatever, yeah, and what the chairs look like and what the chairs look like and it's like where can I like express myself that way? But not get too fused with those decisions.
Speaker 1:Because it can quickly become like, if I don't have the right chairs, I'm not good enough. You know, like a lot for me some of that stuff is coming up. You know, like if I don't and I this is probably just such a huge mistake and I'm so in deep I can't get out of it. Like I'm following a lot of like bridal stuff online. You know, like Vogue weddings and different things on Pinterest and like the anti-bride stuff, which is like brides who are not super normal about their bridal choices.
Speaker 3:So you're consuming all of this, yeah wedding stuff I said to josh the other day.
Speaker 1:I was like why is the only content I'm being shown charlie pooth's wedding, who I don't know?
Speaker 1:if you know charlie pooth is he's like a pop star okay, he just got married okay which it's like the only thing I ever see on my tiktok or instagram is charlie pooth's photos from char thing I ever see on my TikTok or Instagram is Charlie Puth's photos from Charlie Puth's wedding. I'm like this is why the algorithm is so stupid. It's like if I've seen, if I once clicked on Charlie Puth's wedding because I'm getting wedding content and it showed up.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I wanted to see the dress.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And whatever. Why would the AI geniuses think that now I want to see Charlie Puth's wedding another 47 times?
Speaker 2:It's like I don't you love it.
Speaker 1:It's like I would maybe see another wedding, it's your life, I don't even care, but it's like you see so much and that's really where I think I devolve into like I'm not good enough. Where it's like because everything that's actually worth a magazine posting online or an influencer posting, I mean, you know it's a, it's a wedding dress that's custom made for insane amounts of money. That's beautiful, of course, but it's like all these things where you're just like, oh, am I going to look so? Not like that.
Speaker 3:It's like, of course you're not going to look like that, like, and that's fine, and that's really fine, and it's just so this is really an exercise in wise mind, because you're really pulling yourself out of those two extremes right, the rational and the oh yeah.
Speaker 3:And the emotional, yeah yeah, those two extremes right the rational and the oh yeah and the emotional, yeah yeah. Like this is because this exercise of not, um, not the exercise, but the planning of the wedding, the preparing for it and everything like that, you're literally, it's like you're putting yourself in situations where it could tip very quickly into either one, and so you have to be ready to try to really like, adhere to, like that wise place yeah if, if you can, which I went emotional and very rational in our wedding preparations and planning, sometimes where it's just like I couldn't even live in a wise place Cause I just yeah, like yeah.
Speaker 2:For me.
Speaker 3:It was like I would just get like I think what it would. It would be a very quick like. I would get like emotionally flooded because it was too many decisions.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And I think, as I've disclosed, maybe in the first one, I think I do lean more rational, reasonable.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And to me it was like why are we having more of a conversation about this? So I would just shut it down and just be like no, the decision's made.
Speaker 2:I don't want to hear another opinion.
Speaker 3:I don't want to like no done, like there are no other options.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're good at that.
Speaker 3:It would just kind of be like, no, we're not having another conversation or no, we're not checking in with this person about this. Right, we have enough opinions. We have too many opinions, you know.
Speaker 1:So that's kind of where I would go with it, which isn't the healthiest yeah, you almost need to be like our wedding doula, like you know where it's, like that you know, like that voice that's like here's the the boundary, because I think both of us I don't want to speak totally for Josh, but both of us will be a little more like okay, even if maybe we kind of know we want something else.
Speaker 3:I mean you could, yeah, maybe in small doses of me, but then it's just, people are off put by me. It's just off putting. There's like John isn't even like listening to this anymore. He's ejected, he's over it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's just like you know yeah.
Speaker 3:It's so hard though.
Speaker 1:We met the other day with the woman helping with like production meeting Like they help hang flowers and help do certain things. We'd had a meeting with her. She didn't respond to like maybe five of my emails.
Speaker 3:I was like I got horror stories about people not responding from our wedding which was just like so you know this is like a very important day. Could you just respond Like?
Speaker 1:even just a hey, I'll get back to this whatever.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:No response, no response, no response. And then, when we finally made her, she has forgotten truly every single thing we talked about in the meeting. We met with her in person and made a hundred decisions like no recollection and it's like I hear myself even saying this and I'm like this is how you become bridezilla, where it's like this day is so important and I'm like I know she has 50 other weddings even right now she's dealing with. But it is also a bit irritating to have to just constantly repeat.
Speaker 3:That's her job. That's her job. Why are you making excuses for her right now? Well, you're right, it's like Sorry not very therapist of me, but like this is where people are like you know what? Like oh, yeah, ok, you're a therapist, right, kelly? So you're just going to forget everything this person talked about in the last session.
Speaker 1:Like that's not okay, that's your job.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you're so right like I've forgotten little, pretty innocuous details, sometimes with the client of course we do, because, like we're human, but we also take notes and we reflect on that yeah, and most things I'm right there, and this is a service we're providing as well right, so it's like this person's providing a service.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it was like a little her number now. Yeah, well, she has this.
Speaker 3:Josh, can we call her can?
Speaker 2:we get her on the phone right now.
Speaker 3:You don't know who this is, but I know who you are, yeah but you know what.
Speaker 1:You know what I'll notice and I wonder if you I feel more comfortable talking about it with people who've planned a wedding because you feel like our friends like the stress of it or like the issues that come up because I find people that haven't a little eye rolly and maybe I'm completely imagining that or like kind of projecting that.
Speaker 1:So people who haven't planned a wedding or have been married, they, if you haven't planned a wedding, whether they're married or single, if they didn't have a wedding, okay I feel like I'll get a little like oh yeah, sounds rough, you know, and it's like they don't want to be bothered rough yeah it's rough because also like what comes up is like all the dynamics in the family and all these.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know things that are hard and yeah, yeah, it's like, and then I'll feel so much shame and I'm like you think you're so important right and I always like whisper when I like talk about like a shadow I have you think you're so important. That's what I just said if I didn't read into the mic.
Speaker 3:That's. That's the okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's the shadow yeah, that's one of the shadows. And then like another shadow, is that I'm not important? You know?
Speaker 3:and well, one of my things that would always come up would be like this is like this is such a privilege to have this, to even be making these decisions, john, that like you're being an ass like. Stop being an asshole, like. So that was something where it was like there was a lot of shame embedded for me of like how would you possibly be complaining about this?
Speaker 3:like most people don't have options or even are able to like plan stuff. So like that was something that those are like after a day of doing something wedding where I would like lay in bed and be like, oh god, like why did I do that? Because that? Why did I react that way? Why did I like not, you know, like something like that and you know whatever, we all have stuff like that. That happened, but that was why those were more the dark thoughts of just like this is a privilege man, like stop being like that yeah, you know, I know and like yeah, that where it's like it's a blessing, it's a privilege, it's a wonderful event but it doesn't mean, it's not annoying that's the thing I know, that's and it doesn't mean like inadequacies, don't come up, or like right conflict.
Speaker 1:That's real, yeah. That's like there's a heartbeat underneath this that has nothing to do with the wedding yeah you know and stuff like that is real and yeah, I would understand if you haven't gone through it. It's like, yeah, but all my clients when they're planning weddings, like we do some of the best work we do because like really everything is dredged up and and yeah, you can work through a lot so yeah, I mean short answer is a wise yes yeah, I think it is.
Speaker 3:Because here's what we're and I'm not saying this is from my own experience, my own life experience because there is a moment you know, quite a few moments actually where you look around when that day arrives and you're like these people are. This is a one-time event.
Speaker 3:These people are never going to be in this room together again. All of these people from these different areas of our life, these two families, there's friends, there's colleagues, there's just all of these people. And it's such a special moment to have all of those people. That and literally that will never happen again, yeah, in your life and I'm not trying to get like sad about it or anything like it makes me very sentimental to that day, because it was like god, what a special day to have all with, from all of the planning and the headaches and whatever like, to bring those people together for a one-time event. It will. It will never happen again and that's the that, to me, is the wise part about it is like that was so special yeah, yeah, I think I feel exactly the same, all of those people together, you know like and really to like, really celebrate with them like it does take me like one trip with friends.
Speaker 1:I mean that takes me through like years of memories and going back to that trip and moments from same with a wedding. It's like there is juice there that goes way beyond the day way beyond. Yeah, yeah yeah, I think that's what's important and if and the wisdom can be along the way not getting too important, and if and the wisdom can be along the way not getting too bogged down in the details, or when you get bogged down, inevitably, yeah.
Speaker 3:And I think there's also a moment too maybe doesn't happen for everybody, but there's a moment where it's just kind of like the day comes, you're leading up to it, you're leading up to it, and then there's just a moment where I think sarah and I just looked at each other and it was like, well, we've jumped out of the plane now, like we can't play it anymore, like it's just so, let's just enjoy it, because it's just like there's nothing else we can do. Right, and so it's like if something happens, it happens, but it's like we can't just like you know, manage it we're.
Speaker 3:We're just, you know, I don't know why I said jumped out of the plane, but like it's kind of like you know, we've been preparing for this like big thing to happen. It's gonna be really exciting and emotional and like let's just feel that and not just worry about like who's on time or what you know, whatever.
Speaker 1:It's just it's here now, so let's just like enjoy it. Totally, totally okay, so it's wise. It's what I think we came around to being wise, yeah, and you can send any of your friends considering a wedding our way and we'll just set them straight on that I think that's going to be our yeah, we'll be consultants, wedding consultants, wedding consultants, Wouldn't that be great. We're wedding therapists actually.
Speaker 3:Wouldn't that be. Wow. I wonder if there are people who would have some sort of a niche practice of like working with people like almost a couples therapist through literally the the time that they plan yeah their wedding totally. I bet there is like in some really niche like it's a it's a couples therapist but at the same time, like their specialty is like how are you communicating and still connecting and dealing with your stress? And you know like that would be a niche little project. Totally Interesting.
Speaker 1:Totally Okay Well.
Speaker 3:Covered a lot of ground. Yeah, we covered a lot of ground.
Speaker 1:This was great.
Speaker 3:What are you going to plug your practice? You got to plug your practice.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I got to plug my practice as usual. I'm Kelly Kilgallen. I'm a therapist in LCSW, meaning a licensed clinical social worker. Um, and, yeah, I have a private practice. Um, I do mostly telehealth therapy, but I do a little bit in person too. So if you're interested in working with me, um, you can find me at my website, kk psychotherapycom. Um, yeah, and shoot me an inquiry there. Um, yeah, and I'm being trained in emdr right now, which is a type of trauma therapy, like a specialized technique with trauma that I'm adding to my practice skills. So, yeah, so if you're interested in that, I'm also offering that yeah, what about you?
Speaker 3:what do you want to plug? John Butts, licensed clinical professional counselor, so LCPC, not an LCSW. But yeah, email me last name, butts, b-u-t-z. Dot. Jonathan J-O-N-A-T-H-A-N. At Gmail. Let me know what questions you want us to ask. Is it wise? Or even movies that you've seen? We have not seen all content or shows that show therapy, and we always have to say thanks to our producer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, josh Baer, and.
Speaker 3:DJ Blanket Warts.
Speaker 2:Check him out on Spotify. It's great Electronic music. You'll love it. Also his side project Spectro Jammers that's one word. You'll love it. Also a side project, uh, spectra jammers, that's one word. S p e c t r, o, j? A m m e r s trip out to it, work out to it, do the dishes, fall asleep to it or even just listen to it.
Speaker 3:It's great stuff I love that I think I'm fearful for my job now.
Speaker 1:Josh is taking over I know josh gets the mic if it's all gets the mic and it's golden, all right, okay.
Speaker 3:Well, yeah, we'll see you all next week.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening.
Speaker 3:Take care.
Speaker 1:The Wise Mind Happy Hour podcast is for entertainment purposes only, not to be treated as medical advice. If you are struggling with your mental health, please seek medical attention or counseling.