The Wise Mind Happy Hour
Two therapists musing about the idea of an inner wise mind and how to connect with this psychic space in different contexts.
The Wise Mind Happy Hour
People-Pleasing: Is It Wise?
What do fashion choices, family celebrations, and gambling have in common?
Find out on Wise Mind Happy Hour, as we tackle all of the above, and also dive deep into the precarious world of people-pleasing.
- music by blanket forts -
Welcome to the Wise Mind Happy Hour Podcast. I'm Jon, joined as always by Kelly. Yes, I'm Kelly.
Speaker 2:We are your resident therapists, right yeah? Podcast hosts.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and we're here to just talk about therapeutic things our lives in general and, yeah, let's get started.
Speaker 2:What's new with you? What's been going on in the past?
Speaker 1:what's, yeah, what's been going on in the past two weeks.
Speaker 2:Going on in the past has it been two weeks or no, maybe it's been one week one week that's how busy we've been oh, it's been two weeks because we went to las vegas you went to vegas and I went to san diego.
Speaker 1:Yes, that's right.
Speaker 2:What was vegas like? Ve was good. We were there for non-Vegas reasons. We were there because a family friend of Josh's got engaged and we would not normally travel for an engagement party. But we were not able to make the wedding because it's two weeks before our wedding, which we're like not going to even bother with.
Speaker 1:I'm like smirking, because what are Vegas reasons? Well, like to gamble To go and party on the strip To gamble, yeah. To get married, to lose your life savings.
Speaker 2:Totally, oh my.
Speaker 1:God Wait, speaking of that, to turn into Nick Cage and leaving Las Vegas.
Speaker 2:Speaking of that, josh's family friend who was there is like kind of a funny crotchety but like great, very authentic oral surgeon surgeon which I don't know if that matters that detail, but he's very like matter of fact. Okay, and we were talking about the one night we stayed at the aria and we were like wow, vegas, like it's so big. I was like we've never gambled, like maybe we'll spend ten dollars on like a slot just to have the experience. And he was like don't do that, he goes. Vegas is built on losers. It was so funny.
Speaker 2:We were like I guess that's true. Did you take that advice? Did you gamble at all? We did. Josh's mom gave us 20 bucks which we didn't need Because we didn't know how to do it. We wanted them to show us even how to do it, which we just clicked the button and then lost the whole $20.
Speaker 1:And I just made a party follow. We, yes, and I just made a party fall. We are also joined by Josh, our producer.
Speaker 2:Josh is here.
Speaker 1:Yes, our producer. He does everything for this podcast.
Speaker 2:basically, yeah, yeah, he's really the man behind the podcast. He's really the talent. We're just kind of here, we're just the clowns at the front.
Speaker 1:So you went to Vegas. You did that, you did do some gambling, so you did a few Vegas, do some gambling. So you did a few vegas things yeah, we did.
Speaker 2:We, yeah, we lost. It was like probably one in the morning. We lost like 20 bucks and then went to sleep, um, but yeah, we went to the engagement party, which was nice. Um, yeah, that was really it was. It was 100 degrees, it was really so hot, yeah, but that's kind of all we say to the aria for one night.
Speaker 2:Oh, josh's mom got upgraded and gave us the upgraded so awesome for truly like five hours we got to experience this huge suite that we couldn't find the toilet like we couldn't. It was so big we didn't, we couldn't find it.
Speaker 1:It was like the biggest room I've ever seen like, like the door was hidden.
Speaker 2:It was like this frosted glass and it was. The toilet was like hidden, the bathroom was like the size of this whole apartment. Oh my god, it was crazy. And then what's so funny is like we eventually started to complain about the room to each other and I was like this is crazy that, like you can find the negative in truly anything like josh is like there's like a mildew smell and I was like this is the ultimate sign you can't find a toilet.
Speaker 3:There's a mildew to be like mildew.
Speaker 2:But it did smell like mildew and I was like what is that from? Like someone staying here, some vegas person, you're like this. California king is too big yeah, like I can't find my partner the foot massage I'm getting at all times is just too rough too, much and then we started to make a joke about like complaining about every like bougie thing, which is very fun. But it was good, it was nice, it was a short trip, yeah, how?
Speaker 1:was san diego. San diego was cool. San diego literally is the same weather day every single day. Like you know how it's like beautiful every day in San Diego. Like, that's what people say it literally is beautiful. In San Diego it's like a little bit cool cloudy in the morning, 11 o'clock the sun burns it all off and it's just sunny the rest of the day. So we were there for my father-in-law's 70th birthday.
Speaker 1:So we were there. My sister-in-law was there with her two girls, we were there with my kids and it was awesome. We were like, so we stayed off. So have you been to San Diego? I've been once, but I don't know if I've ever looked off into the distance like you're downtown and you're like in a building, you look off and there's like a huge, like tall bridge. It's kind of like going over water and you like what? Why? Where's that bridge going? It goes to like an island that's off it called coronado.
Speaker 1:oh, I don't know it, we stayed on coronado, so we weren't in san diego proper. But, like we, you didn't get to the airport. You drive through it and then you just go over this bridge and you're like on this, like it's like its own, like complex or like what like compound is more of the restaurants and all these like different like places. And yeah, it was really really fun so you can like rent bikes, but it was great.
Speaker 1:We were right on the beach and, uh, kids had a blast beach, yeah so it was like the place we stayed was like right up against the beach, so it had a pool and everything, and like we did a lot of stuff like at the pool, but then you just like literally go out a door and you're right on the beach. There's like a bike path there, so it was so nice. It was really really nice. It was a short trip we were there for like three, four days, but it was great.
Speaker 3:It was awesome being out there.
Speaker 1:That's so nice, I know.
Speaker 2:It was great. Yeah, that weather is better. There was moments when we were outside on our trip and I truly said to Josh, like I have to get inside, like my skin's burning off.
Speaker 1:Well, I was thinking too. I was like isn't California a desert? Isn't parts of it a?
Speaker 2:desert or no, it's like parts of, like Palm Springs oh.
Speaker 1:Palm Springs is insane Desert Because the even so, we went there for my father-in-law's 70th and then he was going to drive him and his wife to palm springs to go golfing. But when we were looking at the weather we were like that might actually literally be dangerous for your health because, like the temperature was going to be like 120 degrees I, I, we, would, we literally, because in vegas you can go from hotel to hotel inside so we were only outside for minutes at a time and I could not handle it yeah I literally was like running to like shade from like a tiny little fence.
Speaker 2:Like it was crazy, it was too yeah, you're like. You're like hopping around to find shade yeah yeah, like and I'm, you know, so weak like in every way, just like like the average person probably could handle that. Josh was fine, his mom was fine and I was like did you bring your hat that you bought in mexico? No, you know what I really should have brought that I like that hat. I know, isn't that hat great?
Speaker 1:I've never worn it with job that's sun, that's, it's a sun hat when I wear it outside of, like mexico city. Yeah, I like feel silly, I think.
Speaker 2:It's like in LA I could wear it. Nobody wears hats in Chicago, it's like. So you feel a little like.
Speaker 1:I, when it's sunny and I take my kids out to the park, I'm always wearing my my sun hat, like that like oh yeah.
Speaker 2:I should just do it. It's like why do I care just?
Speaker 1:for sure, wear it. Yeah. What's the fear there?
Speaker 2:I. That's a great question. What is the fear? It's like I'm almost like I've seen some people out wearing hats, like in the city like fedoras no, like actually similar hats to that when I got in mexico city, like when we're describing this hat to the people that are listening.
Speaker 1:This is like yeah, it's like.
Speaker 2:It's like a sun hat. It's like a sun hat. It's like a sun hat, but it's got a little bit of that Mexican cowboy energy to it. I think it's chic. I really like it, and when I wore it there, everybody had them there.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I think I felt like sometimes, if you're the only one, it can feel like oof.
Speaker 1:Out of place.
Speaker 2:Yeah, am I like really trying something here? I should just wear it tomorrow.
Speaker 1:Wear it tomorrow.
Speaker 2:Just as like an exposure to like because I love it.
Speaker 1:Just walk to the gas station and pick up, like soda or something or walk to Starbucks with it.
Speaker 2:Watch someone like complete I'm like high schooler like knocks it off my head Whether people are honest or not.
Speaker 1:whenever I wear that hat the hat that I have I always get a compliment on it, and I don't know if people are complimenting me more that it's a bold move to just wear a hat like that but either way, I'll take the compliment because it's like I like the hat and I don't really care what people think.
Speaker 3:But also that's great.
Speaker 1:That's kind of getting into maybe a little bit of the topic we're going to talk about today, but like it's also like kind of I think that when somebody makes a bold move, sometimes you just kind of say to them, like I like that yeah even if the aesthetic isn't what you would wear.
Speaker 1:It's just kind of like yeah the fact that you're wearing it, and you're wearing it with like some confidence, like yeah, there's something to be complimented about that you know, someone came up to me when I wore it at the airport at mexico city.
Speaker 2:I was in the airport for like 8 000 hours but they came up to me and said where did you get it? I want to get one yeah, so I was like, okay, this is someone likes it. Yeah, I really gotta, I gotta pull it out, but I did not bring it. Las vegas fashion is insane. Las vegas fashion that what we saw, is there, there a fashion.
Speaker 1:Well, it's like Beverly Hills plastic.
Speaker 2:There were like a lot of plastic surgery, a lot of sparkles.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 2:Like I was like.
Speaker 1:I thought it would be a little more Like caked on makeup platinum Caked on makeup. Like platinum, like blonde hair.
Speaker 2:Yeah, big lips, yeah everyone had lips Bold, bold heels yeah, yeah, like, like, even rhinestone, like jeans yeah, like rough stuff yeah yeah yeah yeah, it was um interesting. To each their own. To each their own, of course. Yeah, it's like if you love that. Yeah, it's like clearly, I'm being so judgmental and being like that. It's like that's the whole energy with which I'm taking even to my hat and not wearing it. It's like I need to just be more non-judgmental, like wear what you like. Who gives a shit if anyone?
Speaker 1:where would you like? Yeah and that's really now we're transitioning into fashion yeah, there's more fashion advice from therapists who talk about judgmental. Sometimes therapists have the worst fashion oh yeah sense totally and I think we
Speaker 2:can keep that in, don't cut that we can keep that in I you know who I think has the best is like those like old, old, old male therapists with like elbow patches like the judd hirsch like fashion icons what do you feel about?
Speaker 1:like the old, the older generation of therapists with a lot of like and I don't know, maybe I I'm not trying to be like gendered about this, but maybe the women who have the glasses with the glasses, like holder necklace.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:A lot of like maybe scarves that they're wearing.
Speaker 3:I love it.
Speaker 2:I'm obsessed with it.
Speaker 1:You're a fan. You like that?
Speaker 2:Because I think of my therapist.
Speaker 1:But like it's not like a glasses, like necklace that doesn't have like a jushy, it's like got like a lot of like colored stones.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like, yeah, kind of art teacher oh yeah, like you find it in like a uh, I don't know.
Speaker 1:I feel like I want to say door county, but people, listening, aren't gonna like know what that is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, door county is like a cute kind of like campy little town in wisconsin yeah, like northern wisconsin but has tons of like antique shops and stuff like that. Yeah, like a Star's Hollow from Gilmore Girls, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:Now my wife Sarah is going to listen to every episode, if we drop Gilmore Girls in every episode she's going to listen. Yeah.
Speaker 2:We should 100%. Well, we are on the final episodes, josh and I. I made him watch it because I'm obsessed.
Speaker 1:And I took him through the whole thing, which we love it. Wife is upset. There's two shows that she's watched consistently over and over in her life that she will always watch consistently over and over.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is gilmore girls and it is the west wing yeah, yeah, which have similar vibes like the way, the cadence of the talking and and the west wing is only ramped up now because of election season. But yeah, yeah, stars hollow yeah yeah, that cute cozy town that's like door county, but yeah, those like quirky, I think, a quirky therapist. It's funny because, like I almost think if you meet a therapist that you're thinking about seeing yeah that's like too, like cool. Yeah, that could be off-putting or too like, almost like it's not crazy, but like too, like together in a certain way
Speaker 1:listen, I I mean, I'm josh. Maybe you don't know this about me, but I have six of the same shirts I wear. I found a shirt that I like yeah it's a blue oxford button-down shirt. I bought six of them. I like them and that's my work shirt. I just wear that. I just wear the next one every single day, so I've yeah there's years, this has been years.
Speaker 2:I just wear the exactly same the same shirt every day, different colored pants, but that blue you know what's amazing You're saying this, but, like I worked with you, shared an office with you for years, I didn't think of it as, like John wears the same thing every day.
Speaker 1:You know why it's the sweater game? Because we have four seasons here in Chicago. So the sweaters come out, which make it feel fresh, yeah, but then when the weather is the same, it's literally the blue shirt every single day.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:I weather is the same. It's literally the blue shirt every single day. Wow, I was just about to ask you if you change colors, because I guess I didn't even know it's just the pants that change the pants. So the pants will change between, like, a gray, a navy, more gray and probably more navy, but it's funny because, sometimes.
Speaker 1:One time a patient was like I walked in, he was like wow, mixing it up a blue shirt, huh, I was like oh my god, that was like dragged me like great roast um so, yeah, I have my own quirky like style where it's like, yeah, it's just so much easier just for me to not have to think about especially when you're kids and you have to get them ready oh that it's like I can't even like think about what I'm wearing yeah, totally.
Speaker 2:I heard recently on an actual, I think, fashion podcast or fashion tiktok or something, them saying like real style is having a uniform and like slight deviations in the uniform like that's like more kind of like the real sense of style of it all. Yeah, like doing a little less of the like. Oh, this is a trend, so I'm just gonna get it yeah versus like a real sense of yourself and what you're comfortable in, what looks good on you I love the that shirt.
Speaker 1:Once I found that shirt I was like I need to get more of these shirts. And then I did. And then I was like why am I even thinking about wearing any other shirt to work like? If this is just the acceptable thing to wear, and so I was like, well, I probably need six of them, because if I don't, if I don't get laundry done on the weekend, I'll have that sixth one for the next monday and then I'll just do my monday laundry you know.
Speaker 2:So we do that with groceries where we like have a sixth like a monday night grocery, you gotta have it, yeah, there yeah, it's the one that's uh yeah you know, you just have that one, just in case but, yeah I love that. The fashion of therapists. Yeah, it's interesting my therapist, like um mostly, I feel like wears workout clothes which I would never wear to therapy, to my workout like athleisure wear yeah, I think she works out a lot. She would never reveal that, but I think I think she's into that.
Speaker 1:I think people don't really care anymore what people wear.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't think people care, it's just really transitioned into that, don't you think?
Speaker 1:Yeah?
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, it's like if I popped on a Zoom with a new therapist and they were like dressed up up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that would be a little much. I'd be like what the hell? Yeah, I think my therapist on Zoom wears like a yeah, like pretty much like a black t-shirt. Yeah, it's kind of like, that's just like it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. I mean I think you can't look like schlubby, like you just rolled out of bed.
Speaker 3:You could, you could, but I think then clients would be like are they okay.
Speaker 1:You try to pull that off. Yeah, I don't know. We had a coworker. We can take this out if it doesn't work. We had a coworker who loved her to death and I remember her being like, yeah, this is. We were like Zooming with her and she was like this is my, this is my office. It looks so good and and you know the the computer's on the desk and you're seeing like her face level and then everything behind her and she's an art therapist not to give away too much so much great stuff. And then she you know, we're complimenting her, we're like god, like you're just, your space looks great, yeah. And she was like, let me just tilt the camera down. She tilts the camera down and it fucking looked like a bomb went off in her goddamn office. There was shit everywhere all over her floor but you would have. No, I don't even know how she backed her chair out.
Speaker 1:It was art supplies, it was canvases all over the place and it was so funny I was dying laughing because it was like yeah, you only see that upper zoom. If you're doing therapy on zoom, yeah, you only see that and that's really all you need to see, right. But I was shocked when she turned. I was like how do you even get in the room, let alone like get in your chair? Wow it, it was bins, it was like paint things, it was I don't even know the things.
Speaker 2:Which makes so much sense for this person.
Speaker 1:It was almost as if she like had to have like a hatch that she dropped into the room, because how do you get in there?
Speaker 2:But anyway, it was so funny I was like yeah, that is so funny, wow, and I almost think it's. I'm bad at like making the space behind me look good, but like generally our apartment is like fairly neat. I'm just not as good as curating, like the picture behind my screen.
Speaker 1:Do you have one of those like lights that make it brighter? What are those things called Like a ring light?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I own a ring light, but I've never really used it.
Speaker 1:What is that?
Speaker 3:supposed to do.
Speaker 2:It's kind of a little more of a vanity thing. I think it makes your face look like better. It's like it's a vanity thing.
Speaker 3:I think it's kind of like oh, I thought it was just supposed to make your?
Speaker 2:I thought it was just supposed to make your like place brighter so it's easier to see on camera it probably does do that, but it's definitely kind of makes you look like you're wearing makeup, like it's it like highlights just the right things.
Speaker 1:Oh it does, yeah it, and it works, like when I've because now my mind's going to, it's just going to highlight all the bad things about my face. No, no, it's like it's special in that way.
Speaker 2:The ring makes it where it's like that's fascinating. Yeah, it looks. A lot of people do it. I've heard like if you're an actor, for like audition tapes, you want to have that ring light on there. You want to like make it and for like tiktoks and stuff they all have that so that it looks and filters and so it all looks.
Speaker 3:Yeah I had no idea.
Speaker 2:Yeah wait, speaking of this, actually just yesterday I was talking with a therapist and she was saying she sees a lot of teens and she was saying a lot of them are coming to her with this issue of feeling like their own online presence is like too curated such that when people meet them in real life, they're like they have this like paranoia, that they think like well, this is what you really look like and this is who you really are Like your presence is so, like these perfect pictures and these perfect destinations.
Speaker 3:Oh really.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I was like, and she was asking me if I had come across that and I was like I don't think I see young enough clients for that. Are these high schoolers? Yeah, high schoolers.
Speaker 1:Interesting, and so what they're putting out there Is fake Is fake Like pretty doctored. Which is not. That's not a huge reveal.
Speaker 3:Yeah, don't we know that, everybody that puts fake shit out there all the time?
Speaker 1:Yeah, but the backlash is that when they actually are meeting people in real life, then there's like a disappointment. Well, I think there's a fear of that, like they're finding themselves socially anxious because they know people are aware of them from their presence, and now they're going to see them and be like this what you look like. So they've presented a certain way, yeah. And then it's like how do I live up to that?
Speaker 2:or oh interesting yeah, their real life is all the bins at that. So what?
Speaker 1:is what is the yeah, what? What's the approach then? How do you present yourself in a more authentic way?
Speaker 2:like what's the? Work then there probably that could be an exposure like, even not like.
Speaker 1:It's one of the not, that's one thing, but like how yeah how would you have more of an authentic yeah. Presence on your social media?
Speaker 2:well, it's funny because I almost think like tiktok kind of started with like a lot of people being like oh, I'm wearing no makeup in these posts or I just got out of the shower and I'm posting a TikTok Like they were trying to do more like authentic and even that has become performed the like.
Speaker 2:I'm having a bad day, so I'm going to post about having a bad day. So people know that I have bad days too, and I'll even read some of those. And I'm like these seem kind of phony in their own way. So if you're having a bad day.
Speaker 1:Just be off this thing the authentic thing would be just a black screen. It would just be a black and, just like I'm on the precipice here, I'll get back to you tomorrow. That would be the authentic thing. Yeah, yeah, I guess. How do you? How do you authentically present yourself if you want to present yourself on a platform that you're having a bad day?
Speaker 2:yeah, I mean maybe the mere fact of putting it on a platform. It's like there's performance there well, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, wow, that's a whole like convoluted mess. Yeah, like, do you want to be more authentic in that or, yeah, do you want to post less so that there's not as much pressure?
Speaker 2:right, do you?
Speaker 1:want to, and I'm the furthest removed from anybody. Obviously we were just talking about this before recording this. I've never been on social media like this is my first. Yeah, this would be my first social media thing, right? Podcast? Yeah, social media yeah totally, I'm asking what social media no, it's actually a big reveal in this podcast. I'm 3,000 years old. I actually don't know what I'm talking about.
Speaker 2:I was born in the 18th century.
Speaker 1:So that it's like what do you? Yeah, what do you?
Speaker 2:do with that. Yeah, what's the intervention?
Speaker 1:There's probably like which I see, and the other thing is like being a teenager, who you are to begin with when you're a teenager yeah or at least you have very little, I don't. Well, I don't know, I'm speaking from my own experience. Like you're just trying to sort shit out, like you just you maybe have some like small things you know about yourself or like some things that you I don't know, such scant it scant self-awareness. That must be so hard.
Speaker 1:And then you feel like you have to put things on there and then not I don't envy that at all, no.
Speaker 2:My eye will not stop twitching. Do you think I'm dying? Is that?
Speaker 1:a shh yes.
Speaker 2:No, I think it's just sometimes when I have alcohol.
Speaker 1:I'm having a little drink. Oh, is that the alcohol? Talking Through your eye.
Speaker 2:Could you tell that it was doing that A little bit? No, okay, as long as I look perfect.
Speaker 1:As long as my social media page is perfectly hearing. Are you having a bad day now? Do you need to post that? Are your eyes twitching?
Speaker 2:I'm hashtag relatable. I have a twitching eye.
Speaker 1:I have a twitching eye and it's death.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I like when you go to death. Yeah, oh, I go right to death I know you go right to death. I share an office I share an office with you.
Speaker 1:Of course I know you go right to death. You know how many times you went right to death when we shared an office.
Speaker 2:Oh, my god, speaking of this week, I and I mean this from the bottom of my heart I said to Josh several times I think I have a blood clot and I was like I feel like we should go to the emergency room, maybe Cause I had been on the plane and my legs were bothering me. Okay, we didn't end up going and I ended up being fine. I think I just was having like circulation issues from the plane, which I think I get, but I truly was, truly was like I had like weird heavy feeling in my leg and a kind of a reddish spot. So I naturally was like I'm dying and I kept saying to josh I was like I just don't want you to wake up tomorrow and I'm dead in the bed. I'm saying that, which is so crazy dark. I don't want that either. Yes, no, he would say that he's like.
Speaker 2:Well, I don't want that either he's like I don't think that's gonna happen.
Speaker 3:I don't think it's gonna happen. I don't want that either. Yes, no.
Speaker 2:He would say that he's like well, I don't want that either. He's like I don't think that's going to happen.
Speaker 1:I don't think it's going to happen. I don't want that. And he went dark, I know Wait you're saying that was happening during the flight, or?
Speaker 2:after no, after it's like Monday I saw my clients and I was like my legs were kind of bothering me I did raw dog some of them.
Speaker 1:I did too. Oh my God, san Diego. I was like I'm just going to zone out for like an hour, yeah, you know what. I did Raw dog it.
Speaker 2:I started there was a guy, kitty Corner, watching the Dark Knight.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so I had no sound. It was his screen. I just watched his Dark Knight. Yeah, it was so stupid. Yeah, because I didn't have the headphones and I was too lazy to get my book out, so I was just like sitting there watching, oh yeah, oh, and they weren't serving us any water and we were stuck on the flight, so I started to become so thirsty. I saw a character in the Dark Knight fall into a sewer and I felt envious that they were in that water.
Speaker 1:That's how thirsty I was. I was like this is not normal. I was drinking that kind of water, yeah, when I went through security, because for some odd reason, sarah has not, my wife has not gotten her TSA pre, which I understand. It's kind of like an annoying thing. But so every time we take flights, my TSA pre. They got, like, you know, smart to this. It used to just I would buy the tickets and then it would just apply to everybody, but now they don't apply it to her anymore because she's an adult. So I get the kids applied. So we always separate at security and I take the kids. She just goes through the regular line.
Speaker 3:I go through TSA.
Speaker 1:But we go through TSA and we're going through security and of course I put the boys first. First, I'm like go walk through the metal detector and you know, wes walks through. Shane walks through beep, beep, beep. Okay, he's the random one, we're gonna check. I'm like him. I'm like can you just like check me how old is he? He's like shane. Yeah, he's not even seven yet he's turning seven they're like six years old, this guy watch out for him.
Speaker 3:Yeah, he might be on the list, right.
Speaker 1:So I was like what are you going to do with this kid? And they're like well, what does he get in his backpack? And I'm like he's got stuffed animals like chips.
Speaker 3:Chips they're like. Well, does he have a book?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like a book book. Like they were like what do you? He's got an ipad and I he was like well, can we get that out and check? I was like you really get you? Like this is a kid right here. He's like looking up like what's wrong, his eyes are like deer in the headlights and I'm like can you just check something else? And he was like okay, give me your phone.
Speaker 1:And finally he like, took my phone and checked it, but it was just like. This is what it's come to like taking six-year-olds yeah, like to check their shit, god.
Speaker 2:Meanwhile, wes is sitting there like sucker I'm sure I was gonna say my brothers would be laughing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, yeah, I mean wes is so sensitive and so nice and in those moments, like these boys totally rise to the occasion, in those moments, yeah where it's like wes was able to like park it and not like he was kind of like we.
Speaker 1:We just got to kind of like get through this, yeah sure you know, like older brother which is totally appreciated in that moment, but it was also just like so insane that it was like you see all these people walking through, all these adults, and the six-year-old is the random person, the random person. Yeah, who gets pulled through. This guy right here, yeah, this guy, yeah, troublemaker what is he? 60 pounds yeah definitely gonna do some damage over here, like, yeah, ridiculous, yeah, absolutely ridiculous. That's so funny, I know. Oh my god, traveling with kids is like it's pretty fun, but it's also like this is there's a lot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, going on. Yeah, I once traveled with my older nieces and, yeah, that was a lot my one niece was standing on the thing where they weigh your bags and she was begging me to stand on it I was like I'm not standing. She's like come on, I want to know how much you weigh.
Speaker 1:I was like no no, thank you doing that that's gonna be a hard.
Speaker 2:No, yeah, boundary on that one yeah, and they wanted to drink out of all the gross water fountains like in the airport. I was like I don't think your parents are gonna be cool with that new yeah yeah. Yeah it looks pretty crazy, but if your kids, if they travel enough, they probably get used to it because they're visiting family.
Speaker 1:They're good and older they get like obviously it's easier and I let's be for real Like I'm just throwing tablets and treats at them all. Yeah, like they have carte blanche over whatever they want, because it's like we just need to get through this flight.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is not the moment. Flight is where it is.
Speaker 1:This is not the moment for me to be like well, let's limit your screen time, because like it, you can watch whatever you want I have the backup battery, because this thing is going to be on for six hours while we're on this flight.
Speaker 2:But even like as an adult, it's like that, Like when I'm at the airport. It's like McDonald's all the way. You know, it's like the rules are out the window.
Speaker 1:I'll buy a $25 hardcover book.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like you know that I don't even care about that much.
Speaker 1:I'm looking at luggage, yeah at luggage.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I already have the luggage. I'm like, oh, another herschel bag. Yeah, why not? Sure, let's just do it. It's gotta be the newest model vacation yeah.
Speaker 1:Why would I not buy the most expensive thing? Because everything's marked up, because you have no other place.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're trapped. It's like I know another neck pillow of course, why would I not? Yeah, it's like the airport is like, yeah, well I get.
Speaker 1:So talk about like emotion, mind like sometimes when I'm on vacation it's just like dude. I need to like rein it in because I'm just like nothing matters, like let's just charge it like we'll deal with it when we get home.
Speaker 2:That is not good travel well, it gets worse if you're abroad do you ever have?
Speaker 1:I always have a moment when I'm traveling, no matter where I am, it was like, yeah, we're gonna move here and it's like the most insane thing because there's no, there's no like thought about anything rational, like cost. Yeah, like what would this impact be? Like my family, like none of that. But it's like and I could be in anywhere and I literally have this fleeting thought of I was like, yeah, we totally live here yeah, yeah, you're like great couple, cool like restaurants, bars, like it's like sweet cobblestone street over here, we're moving here, and then you're like the like immense disruption to your life.
Speaker 2:To like settle in a new place yeah or even just like.
Speaker 1:Even just like. No concept of like. Oh, this is actually like a really rustic part of the country, but I can make it work. It's like yeah, I could 100 not make this work.
Speaker 2:Right, I know, I've never lived, not in a city, yeah, yeah or like yeah, gary, indiana, not that bad, yeah, maybe. Just it's a bad rap. Cheap, yeah, why not? Oh my god, I know, yeah, but when I'm in vegas it's like yeah, there's no cons.
Speaker 1:I feel like I'm out of my body yeah, yes where it's like I'm not even thinking at all within reality.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I there and for me it starts at the airport like yeah, oh, that space, it's like we're in another zone and also it's the best part, because you're like, oh we, we have everything to look forward to right now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, when you, when you get to the airport you're like we're finally at the airport yeah and especially I get that like blast of endorphins once I'm through security, because I'm just like, yes, the hardest part's over right now we're making this flight we're doing it
Speaker 2:we're doing we're eating food we're just looking for our next meal we're looking for yeah, we're looking for garrett's popcorn.
Speaker 1:Shout out chicago yeah, totally I.
Speaker 2:Actually I went on a trip to hilton head with josh's family and his grandpa is a little bit um, he's good about like, being mindful with spending and he got pretty upset with me for getting a um in a playful way, a hat at the gift shop because he was like wait, I'm rip off what did you get? I bought like a baseball hat at the gift shop of the hotel, because I I needed, because it's marked up, because it's the gift shop.
Speaker 2:It was very funny, like I, I he didn't want me because I was like I'm gonna go over, look in the gift shop for a hat. And he was like they'll rip you off there. They'll josh does his voice really well. They'll rip you off off. You'll be like you can't. And I went in. You're going to the billion dollar restaurant.
Speaker 1:The billion dollar restaurant. You're bypassing the millions and you're going straight to the billions.
Speaker 3:How dare you I?
Speaker 2:snuck over there and he caught me with the hat. He's like I'm like, oh no, I'm going to get in trouble. He was following you around. Yeah, he's like I'm like, oh no, I'm gonna get in trouble. Yeah, he's gonna see me with this hat. And yeah, he gave me some shit about it, but it was pretty funny I was like I know it's a rip-off. What am I gonna do?
Speaker 1:I'm stuck here what's your favorite airport you've ever been to? I have two in mind that's a loaded question yeah, what are yours? Because I almost can't answer. I love pdx.
Speaker 2:I love portland oh, isn't that a famous airport, portland's pretty good like carpeting, so they took that out.
Speaker 1:They like replaced it, which was a huge deal out there um but yeah, the carpet is like a famous like thing there. Um love the portland. I also like the smaller airport in Minneapolis, ms2.
Speaker 2:MS2? It's like.
Speaker 1:MSP2 or something like that. What's nice about it? Small, never busy, and they actually have good restaurants.
Speaker 2:It's crazy, that's wild, that you have good restaurants and it's small.
Speaker 1:Yeah, love it. Those are my two favorite.
Speaker 2:Oh know, wow, I don't know. Maybe I haven't been to some of the good ones because really, like, o'hare is kind of a nightmare, wouldn't it be?
Speaker 1:funny if there's like a version of somebody who they only travel just to hang out at the airport yeah, like good airports, like they're only booking flights to just like. I'm just gonna spend all day at this airport yeah and just really dive in. That's some like experimental film waiting to happen yeah, yes, or like yeah, like a well, maybe it's a full novel, like a short story, it's like yeah, just like, yeah, being in that space, being in that space, right, yeah, our topic today was a fashion travel yeah, it's fashion travel, and now it's people please, people pleasing, yeah, so I guess we can define people please yeah, how would you define yeah?
Speaker 2:I probably we could look up a people please, I'm gonna look up a definition.
Speaker 1:Well, how would you define it?
Speaker 2:yeah while I'm looking it up I would probably call it because, like just to to consider the idea of pleasing others doesn't really count as people pleasing. People pleasing is that more pathological sort of impairing level of making the pleasing of other people your main objective, usually kind ofly, but letting the idea of getting the approval of others, pleasing others really drive you rather than, like your own value system, drive you.
Speaker 1:Yes, and I'm looking this up because, man, there's a lot of negatives to it. But from an APA informed perspective, people pleasing is a common psychological phenomenon where individuals prioritize the needs and desires of others over their own. While it might seem like a positive trait, excessive people pleasing can lead to various negative consequences. And that's probably right, like the idea of, like, how much is it impacting your life, right? And then it becomes maybe a problematic behavior, right? So like, I think there's socially appropriate if we want to call it that, right. Or you know, like people pleasing, like we all do, that that's just a behavior, but it's like, how much is it interfering with you know, other things in your life? So, yeah, some of the things here.
Speaker 1:It says research findings from the APA. Key findings include like relationship to self-esteem people pleasers may have lower self-esteem and seek external validation through the approval of others. So that's maybe one of the main reasons we people please. So the impact on relationships excessive people pleasing can lead to strained relationships as individuals may feel resentful and taken advantage of. And then just the mental health consequences people-pleasing can contribute to heightened anxiety, depression and stress. It also says here some maybe underlying causes, things to consider. Underlying causes things to consider. Psychological factors such as fear of rejection, need for control or even childhood experiences can contribute to people-pleasing behaviors. Which isn't the most descriptive, but certainly things to consider.
Speaker 1:But yeah, that idea that we're not putting our needs out there right as well, and really the secondary gains of it right, Like if we're really lost in, like who we are or we really need that external validation, maybe we have. Whatever our concept is of ourselves, Maybe that's not well defined so.
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally I. That's what I would say. Like it if I noticed myself in that space or see it in like a client. That idea of like If I notice myself in that space or see it in like a client, that idea of like is the self I guess, like almost like developed enough, but more like is it contacted enough? Are you in touch with it enough? Do you kind of trust it enough? Because usually people pleasing it's like I need to please others to be safe.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then some of the common behaviors. This is interesting too the over agreeing, so saying yes to everything, avoiding conflict, going along with what others say to avoid disagreements. We already talked about putting others first, but then the constant seeking of the validation and approval from others Totally. It's hard too, because when we please others, that's so reinforcing, like that feels good yeah, it does and that's how it's like.
Speaker 1:It's hard to sometimes differentiate, like yeah but no, like I'm I'm doing good things, right, right yeah and a lot of the behaviors we engage in that could you know be deemed people pleasing really pro-social behaviors and they get. A lot of the behaviors we engage in that could you know be deemed people-pleasing are really pro-social behaviors and they get a lot of praise and you get a lot of advancement socially, economically, in your job. You get titles right, like all of those things. There's so much that's intertwined in it that reinforces this behavior.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yep, because we want to remember, right, right. I think it's important for us to remember that we we're not labeling people as people pleasers. Right, people are so much more complicated than that, right? We really want to keep this in. From my perspective, I would rather keep this in a behavioral?
Speaker 2:yeah, oh, totally. This is a Like something, a protective move or part of you that comes up to like establish safety. It's like, okay, if I make this person pleased with me, they're unlikely to be a threat. Yes, yeah, I mean, I don't know about you, but I do this a lot. I don't. Yes, I'm so curious about that. I know that's not healthy either.
Speaker 1:There is something in me and I think that sometimes I've developed a reputation of somebody who is difficult or inflexible because I don't go along with things, and this is probably me being defensive of who I am, which is fair. But I do want to be honest that I just feel like I have a strong need to, when I don't agree with something because I truly don't agree with it Not that I'm trying to be difficult To really try to put that out there and be honest. Does it always come across or land?
Speaker 3:No, 100%, yeah, out there and be honest, does it always come?
Speaker 1:across or land. No, a hundred percent. And because I probably presented in a way that is very passionate, maybe not the most kind and I totally own that, but there's always. I feel like there's always been something in me that doesn't I don't feel always the need to want to just tell people what they want to hear and I don't necessarily know where that comes from. Yeah, and it's probably done me a lot of harm in relationships and stuff where I feel like thinking more about like yeah, not that I don't want to please others, cause I I do want to please others, but maybe Not at the cost of your authenticity.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:No, I think. But this ends up raising the really interesting question of is it ever wise to people please Like and by that I mean like to kind of go along with something that maybe isn't totally authentic?
Speaker 1:I think it is yes yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's like that's the space that's really difficult to suss out, because someone with a very strong, people-pleasing part would probably say like a ton of different spaces that it's helpful and there's probably very few where really to kind of go along. Few were really to kind of go along. I feel like I used this once a long time ago when I was doing group therapy and a friend of mine had a wedding and the wedding was not the greatest experience Weather wise, like a bunch of things happened and it was outdoors and like all of this. And then when the friend later asked me if I had a good time, I was like totally and it was outdoors and like all of this. And then when the friend later asked me if I had a good time, I was like totally, it was great and in my mind that felt value aligned, even though it was not technically honest because I did not have the best time, but it felt like my value of, like compassion for this person and how little it mattered to me whether I had the best time.
Speaker 2:You know, it was still a meaningful event in so many ways I ended up saying like, yeah, it was a great time. Um, yeah, and for me it wasn't like almost something like does that make sense? Like, something in there in that space where it's like one value overwhelms another, space where it's like one value overwhelms another. Yeah, yeah, but I mean there's a million other places where I'm people pleasing and it would be more beneficial to be authentic and just say I don't agree with that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's hard, yeah, and I think that there's been space where and I, I know that sarah even like has reflected to me at times where, like, even when she first met me, where she was just like like, you, just like, do whatever you want to do I've never met somebody who's so confident in just telling people no I don't want to do that and this and that, but what's interesting is when you and then when you're in like a family system where a lot of the things as a parent that you're doing you don't want to do, yeah, like that was, that was a struggle for me, and it's not that I'm not.
Speaker 1:I of course, I still do it because it's what the value is. Yeah, but I think the difference there is it's like that really impacted my mood, where it was just like, oh my god, there's all these things that I can't say no to and I don't want to say no to them, right?
Speaker 3:like it's important.
Speaker 1:These are family things and, like you know, that's a part of life as well. But when I was like free as a bird and not in a relationship, or I was in a relationship but I didn't have kids yeah it was like a different zone of like. Just like me, like no, I'm just going to do whatever the fuck I want to do.
Speaker 1:And that's not always the wisest thing, because then what ended up happening was, I feel like it was a very like quick 180, and I wasn't necessarily flexible enough or prepared for that when like situations came up where it was like no, you got to give more and you got to maybe think about pleasing this person right or like putting yourself aside a little bit, or to the, you know, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know if I'm describing that well, but no, that makes total sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, like well, that makes sense with, like I've imagined this with parenthood.
Speaker 3:Obviously I'm not a parent yet.
Speaker 2:But like that whole, like I don't really want to do this today and of course I don't want to say no because it's value line, it's value.
Speaker 1:It's my family, but it's like I can feel like this doesn't sound fun or interesting yeah, yeah, like going along there totally makes sense and I guess it fits the definition of people pleasing a little bit, because it's like you're putting others' needs before yours, which is a value of mine. See, that's where it gets fuzzy.
Speaker 2:Or maybe what about this? What if one of your kids was like Dad, are you having fun? And you're like, yeah, that's probably people-pleasing.
Speaker 1:That would be people-pleasing Right, which. I don't do that with my kids at all, because they will. They, I have no problem when they ask me, and it's interesting because they're reflecting that back to me. Even today I bought this new game. Today we went to Target to shop for pants which is a whole nother episode that we have to probably talk about but we were because my kids only want to wear shorts, like all the time like their whole life.
Speaker 1:They run hot right well, yes, and their whole life is athleisure. I don't think they've worn jeans once in their life, which is fine, that's so cute. But it's like at some point we're going to have to wear pants.
Speaker 2:Like you do know that this is coming right.
Speaker 1:And so this morning we got up, went through all their drawers, blah, blah, blah, blah, took them to Target. We finally got the pants. But I found a new game, brought it home. I was really excited to play it and, uh, you know, I was like shane played it with me, which is great, and then I was like west. I was like this is really fun. I was like you want to play it with me and he's like, um, dad, like I hate to be rude, but no, I really don't. And I was like I really appreciated that because it was like that was like that was authentic, that was like a great move right, because the
Speaker 1:people pleasing. There would have just been like sure, dad, let's have fun, or something like that. And I feel like I modeled what I don't want to do, something. And what's interesting is now they're kind of like picking up on. They'll be like so, dad, I want to do this thing with you, don't worry. Like you don't have to sit on the floor, and I'm like perfect, then I'll do it. I'm like that's great, because you know that if you say you're going to sit on the floor for I'm not going to do it, like I'm too old, I don't want to get on the floor anymore, and like do some of these things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally, that's so funny. They're like listen, we've set it up, you don't have to be on the floor, but so there is a part of it where it's like I'm trying to model for them.
Speaker 1:Like, like it's safe to say to somebody I don't want to play a game with you right now, right Like, and and my oldest is kind of like overly apologetic right now about stuff like that and I'm like you don't have to apologize if you don't want to play a game with me, like yeah, don't play a game with me. Like that's totally fair.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Um but. I think, it's also about the delivery of it, and I think that's probably where I struggle with it too, where the delivery sometimes, whether it be there or anywhere in my life, it's just pretty cut and dry.
Speaker 2:It's like nope, not going to do that.
Speaker 1:It's like I could soften that probably. Right, not the wisest thing to come across like hot every time. Yeah, I get it.
Speaker 2:Well, because I here's the thing about I will. I have a strong people-pleasing part, and when it here's the funny thing about it, it's like when it steps forward and makes a bunch of choices for me, then I'm boiling inside. Yeah, so then the next, the time where the bubble bursts, I'm like an asshole to someone. Yeah, and then it's like what on earth Like?
Speaker 2:this wasn't people-pleasing at all. It's like because the system I always tell clients it's like because the system I always tell clients it's like the system is gonna seek equilibrium. Yeah, so if you're always giving, then you're suddenly gonna really take from someone and explode or like or just be. My exploding is often just like being curt or like a bit sassy and then and then I'll feel guilt.
Speaker 2:And then you go back to the people pleasing and it's like a mess where, if you can find that compassionate but honest, direct, like expression, which is impossible to do all the time but to really be like, to really consider and always, of course, like pausing gives you this like do I really want to do that and do I have the room to say no. You know, it's like if I'm a parent and these are my children often there isn't the room to say no, but I can even contact that like.
Speaker 2:I don't feel like doing this, but it's meaningful and like get behind it but yeah, it's like if a cousin invites you to a dinner you like really don't want to go to, it's like you know, yeah, I love them, but I can say no here. And really say like oh, I love you so much. But I can say no here and really say like, oh, I love you so much, we'll have to get together soon. I can't make it.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, or I'm not going to be able to come.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, I think it just gets, yeah, and then, when it just gets ramped up, when it becomes repetitive, you're not doing the things you need to do Not you, but just people in general. You're not taking care of your own needs. Yeah, and then a lot of you know a lot of the patients we work with, or or at least you know a lot of the ones I like.
Speaker 1:they lose themselves, they lose their identity really like totally because they've been doing it for so long and especially within, like family systems, where it can start very early and then, like they, they don't know what they truly like, they don't know who they are. They don't they think that the pleasing is who they are, or meeting the other person's need is what really gives their life value. And it's not to say that you know that's oversimplified, but you really can't lose yourself in that, in, in that repetitive place. You know Totally and so many people bring up just the workspace just how many values they compromise, like in any number of fields, because it's just, it's all about having to say yes and take on more and work longer.
Speaker 2:And you're not a team player.
Speaker 1:Well, that's the thing there's, so much reinforcement, but also just like punishment.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And a lot of people will feel like they're not just punished but even abused, or like pariahs on these teams, because they're they're actually the one being effective in saying no, we're trying to set a boundary.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But then it's like they're on an yeah, because people are like well, you can't keep up with this, or you're not. You know, there's so much like, yeah, it's hard, it's really toxic.
Speaker 2:I know in the workplace it's like it is probably the hardest space well, maybe except for like certain family situations. But yeah, like to be able to really like even acknowledge the reality that even if I'm an employee here, I have a voice, I can say no to things.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And sometimes you have to even go to the place of like if the worst happens and I get fired for saying no to this like can I handle it? Do I really want? To work in a place that truly does not allow me to have any autonomy. It's like no, you don't.
Speaker 1:Well, in getting back to your point about like taking the beat, like one thing I really try to encourage people is to just say can you just even start by saying can I get back to?
Speaker 2:you.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's a really good, because it's like how many decisions do you need to make in that moment? And I think, with people pleasing, people that really struggle with that behavior, they feel the immediate need to like give the yes, yeah. And so it's like what would it be like to just step outside of that and just pause and say can I get back to you in an hour, can? I get back to you later today.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:Do I have to get back to you today Like so, even like that step back where it's like, if that urge is so strong, just do it. Could I just step back?
Speaker 2:Yeah, right, yeah.
Speaker 3:Like hold a bit of space, just hold it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's so. That is a great step.
Speaker 1:Not that that's easy by any means, because this is reflexive for a lot of people. It really is truly not even. It's like autopilot, right, totally Like.
Speaker 2:It's just like Just comes out sometimes I'll notice that where it's just like, yeah, totally. Then it's like you didn't even listen to the request, like is that even realistic?
Speaker 1:yeah, something that was coming in group this week because, you know, now we're into october, people were starting to talk about like I'm gonna have to have a really difficult conversation with my family, about not like seeing them for the holidays or not seeing them in the same respect as I had in the past, and so a lot of that type of people pleasing where it's like I feel like I can't say no to my family.
Speaker 1:I have to be with them and my family is very uh I'm using words that people use, but it was very toxic or you know, given the political climate right now, I can't be around my family during the holidays, right so even like yeah, those family systems, things where it's like how do I lean into, maybe not just that automatic, like I have to be with them, or even I have to be with them all day, or I have to like are there little moves you can make? Where it's like you can see them.
Speaker 2:You don't spend the whole day, or yeah, yeah, some little move toward autonomy goes a long way and surviving it and realizing like okay, no one was destroyed. Which therein?
Speaker 1:lies the. So the urge right probably to people. Please and correct me if I'm wrong here. That's coming from that more emotional place right, yeah. That emotion-minded place, that rational comes in and says take a step back here, right. And so then, if you give yourself that space again, that might be that wise place where you can make the decision. Is it value-aligned? Maybe I go for a little bit, so I please a little bit, but not to the extent of then sacrificing my own mental health or well-being yeah, totally, totally.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like it's. It is a tricky thing and and even like there's so much like kind of I don't even know what other maybe like religious backgrounds get into this, but like judeo-christian pressure, definitely I grew up catholic. Definitely this like self-sacrifice narrative of like it's always good, yes, to give, to give, which, like it takes so much to unlearn that and yeah, well, it's a humble you know, humility.
Speaker 1:It's a service to others right, like altruism, like all of these things yeah that that are values, like? Certainly not. Yeah, you know, but it's to what extent right that these things get ingrained and programmed yeah into us, you know yeah yeah, that's hard right I mean I do I do engage in people pleasing, thoughasing though, for sure, I'm sure you do somewhere. I don't bring up stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Totally Like with some of my family. Definitely don't bring up stuff. Yeah, we're a total people-pleasing move.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right there.
Speaker 2:Definitely and it's like just to have the conversation and there's places I don't where I should, even if I like sort of identify sometimes as like having that really strong part where it's like I should hear, where I'm just like more honest or yeah, yeah, maybe sometimes with family, that's most where I don't funny enough Like, yeah, like Josh and I I was talking about this like sometimes, like if a family member is telling a story that I'm part of and I feel like that's not how the story went, I have a hard time just being like just let them have this, you know version of it.
Speaker 1:Let them tell their version yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm like that's not what happened, you know, and I like really get so and I'm like I can hear myself a little bit, you just jump in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, like being like you're being so intense right now, but it's like it'll bother me that it's not authentic. Yeah, it's like an opposite reaction and again, the system looking for equilibrium. It's like if you overdo it here, you probably underdo it here. Yeah, and really like finding the middle is always like more healing. Finding the wisdom is always the most healing. Like how do you care for others, have compassion for others and have compassion for yourself?
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And what's like true.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Is it wise Is?
Speaker 1:it wise? Every week we ask a question is it wise? Yeah, and then we try to tease it apart.
Speaker 2:Yes, and this week we're going to talk about is it wise to engage? And then we try to tease it apart. Yes, and this week we're going to talk about is it wise to engage with astrology in some way? And I engage with it a little bit these days, probably less than maybe even when we shared an office, but I am still into it. I just haven't been like doing the cards and stuff, like lately. But tell us your, john, your relationship to these things um what relationship, I guess.
Speaker 1:I guess that's the question it's nothing. It's nothing to I. Just I don't what is engaging. So here's my thing about astrology. Yeah, I understand the entertainment value of it, so I guess the if and of course I'll date myself here if you are getting a paper, a newspaper and there's the little snippet about, like your signs of Leo.
Speaker 1:This is what you might want to look out for. Is that entertaining to just kind of think about? Has anything recently happened or in the course of my day? May this come about? I think that would be my wise engagement with it. Yeah, yeah, I don't know how wise it is when everything is attributed to retrograde gosh. Yeah, totally, because I feel like I'm running into more people in my life that are attributing every aspect of their life happening because of something that is is this the wrong word? Celestial.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I don't buy that. I don't buy that either, I think, and I think it's like so pointless even if you bought it on some level to track it. It's like there's always a retrograde here or there or somewhere.
Speaker 3:And what?
Speaker 2:is the birth chart of it all. So I've recently learned that the birth chart is, like, a bit different than horoscopes, which I kind of thought they were. Are they both astrology? They're both astrology, but horoscopes like, according to whoever was saying this, some astrologer. And on the podcast the host kept calling them an astrologist, which I don't think is a word, which is kind of funny. But I think it's a straw astrologer think or maybe neither of those are words.
Speaker 1:I know nothing of this. So yeah you're probably sure.
Speaker 2:I'll engage with it a bit. And this woman was like they're very different. Like what's more accurate, she was saying, is the birth chart, because it's more like the minute, like the place that, like our, and day you were born, or month, place, like hour you were born, sets the stage for, like who you're gonna be I think I'm already zoning out.
Speaker 1:I'm really trying hard to pay attention, yeah, so not to cut you, well, well here's the theory. Tell me the theory.
Speaker 2:Because I think I only really engage with like, almost like meta narratives of it. Like, sometimes I think a framework, even if it's like not a true framework, can be something interesting to see your life through.
Speaker 1:Sure, yes, like raises interesting questions, but it's like that's the curiosity I would like to bring to it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally so.
Speaker 1:yeah, it's like my birth chart, for instance, like I'm a pisces sun, which I think your sun sign is like, like the horoscopes match with this, where it's like the month you were born and so what people don't know is the amount of time when we shared an office where it was like these would come up, these conversations, that I would try to track them and I'd be like okay but it's like when I encounter a person who actually fully buys into it, then I'm like they're completely full of it.
Speaker 2:I really do think that. But it's like I saw an astrologer on my I think it was my 31st birthday. She did my chart and I went to her because I'd heard she was kind of like grounded and pretty normal and pretty cool and I found her that way and she was like your sun sign is like how I think sun like how you shine in the world, so like how most people that know you like see you, whereas like your rising sign is how you appear to maybe more like strangers or acquaintances.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then your moon sign is like how you are when you're alone. Sometimes they say your most authentic self.
Speaker 1:You know what that rings a bell? I remember you telling me that.
Speaker 2:Yes, and I'm a Taurus moon, which is like stubborn, practical, so it's like when I'm alone. I guess I'm a little like that, okay, this is like jarring my memory.
Speaker 1:See and maybe I have an aversion to this and I don't think it's wise, because people seem to have a reaction when they know I'm a Leo.
Speaker 2:Yes, it seems like people hate Leos. Well, Leos are one of the signs where people have these polarizing responses.
Speaker 3:They really don't like them. Leos, scorpios and.
Speaker 1:Geminis People are like whoa, which is wild because my son and I my oldest son were born on the same day. Yes, we're both Leos, and my wife and my youngest son are both Scorpios and people are like how the hell does your house work? And I'm like, well, that just shows that astrology is shit because it works fine. Yeah, it's fine, but it's interesting that people have such visceral reactions, and so maybe that's why I'm kind of like what. You already have a problem with me because I'm a Leo.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, it's also like it's such an excuse to like validate yourself if you've even encountered like a difficult person to be like. Oh there's Scorpio, because like all the Scorpios in my life I really like. But then I like went on a few dates with a gemini and I'm like they're nightmares, like you know, which is like the twins, the two face, yeah but I think I remember you looking up my birth yeah, yes, and I think my and your human design.
Speaker 1:I think my moon was like a Sagittarius.
Speaker 2:Wow, Because Sagittarius is very like party central extrovert. Let's just have fun. Let's not get too heavy into deep questions.
Speaker 1:Let's just like party, party. Are those like people born in December?
Speaker 2:Yeah, because my brother's a Sagittarius. Okay, is he like that at all?
Speaker 1:What.
Speaker 2:Extroverted, like more, like less, into like I don't know. I gotta get into the depth of anything too much.
Speaker 1:A very even keel yeah, okay, yeah like naturally good at everything. Okay, like my brother is just like it comes. He probably wouldn't describe it like this, but I've always viewed him as this and maybe that's just adoration of like you're an older sibling.
Speaker 1:It just seems like it came natural to him yeah like sports school, yeah, relationships, uh, just easygoing, very, very likable, like, just just overall, just very like. And the most humble and easygoing guy, wow, it just like came like very easy to him. I feel like now would he describe his life. Is that, of course, probably not right because, like everybody struggles, but yeah, from an outsider's perspective and growing up, and that's probably just look, also again looking up to an older sibling, but yeah yeah, so he was a sagittarian okay, interesting, he almost like wait, the human design.
Speaker 2:Are you talking about the generator? So that's like almost like adjacent to astrology.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Which I like briefly got into. It's that one's even kookier because it's like one guy just had this like vision, that like humans are in these five categories Right, and one is a manifestor, which I technically am One is a generator which is an excuse to not do notes. It's an excuse to never do administrative work for the rest of your life. So basically.
Speaker 3:Kelly, you'd be like.
Speaker 1:I don't feel like doing any admin today, john, because I'm a man, I'm a manifestor.
Speaker 2:Is that what we do? Is that what we do? I need to feel inspired by my notes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I need to wait for inspiration, you just need to do them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, then you give them to the generators around you. Well, you guys are you. Josh and John are both generators Meaning like your task. According to this model, your task in life is to do what lights you up. And if you do what lights you up and kind of unabashedly say no to things that don't light you up, don't excite you, you know, fulfill you, if you say no to those and yes to the things that light you up and do them, you'll have this almost kind of like endless energy, so that just go, that's in that, okay, so don't, I'm not on board doesn't this just come back to the people pleasing and how I describe myself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yes, yeah Like an abundance of energy, of being. I was saying no to the things. That was just like yeah, and just like really ramping into the things I really like yeah, and it gives you energy.
Speaker 2:It like energizes you and so you're. It's almost like you're as generators. Your task is that like unapologetic self satisfaction, and for me it's like unapologetic self expression, so it's like be authentic like and I almost it's like in my type. I'm gonna know less what satisfies me ahead of time. I'm kind of like supposed to be the trailblazer, so it's like I might have to try a few things before I realize like, oh, I don't like this, and then just leave it.
Speaker 2:leave it you know, like that's more my thing, and there's like a type that's called a manifesting generator, which is like that too, where it's like sometimes you have to like be in a room before you know it's the wrong room to be you don't have just thought of?
Speaker 1:are there horoscopes that give you like numbers, like lucky numbers?
Speaker 2:yeah, yes, or things like that. Yeah, so totally unwise.
Speaker 1:Don't play the lottery on those. Yeah, I'm just gonna put that out there. Disclaimer anybody playing the lottery with those numbers? I I guess let us know if you've won. Yeah, I'd be curious of that might be out there, um, but probably not wise. So I guess it's all about our relationship with astrology, is it wise?
Speaker 2:is it? What's your relationship? Okay, I don't I agree with you.
Speaker 1:I don't think it's wise should you be making large life decisions about partners? No, is that a wise decision to say this person? A book told me that whatever tourists and so and so aquamarine biologist, whatever they're called, like aquarius, yes, like I don't even know the names of these things aquamarine, aquamarine the color and teal blue? No, but like are we taking advice on that for, like larger decisions of our life?
Speaker 2:no, I wouldn't not wise no, but I will say like I think with like we would sometimes at the office do goddess cards or like, yeah, that's a whole nother thing, you do that, another episode, yeah. Or like when I went to the astrologer she was like now she honestly could have googled me is the truth. But I chose to believe this. But she was like you know a lot of people, your price. You know a lot of people, your price. You know a lot of people, according to your chart. Like a lot of people probably confide in you and kind of seek help or guidance from you. Almost like in the people in your life, you're almost like a therapist to them. And I was like well, I am a therapist. And she was like get out of here. Now, she totally could have Googled me, but I don't know. I guess I didn't think she did.
Speaker 1:Okay, so even in that right, that's the other thing. Now that you said that, that is kind of like to me a little bit annoying, because the things that they say about whatever your sign is is so broad yeah, it's generic that you can find the truth in it. Now, granted, that was pretty specific to you because you are a therapist, so I will give it that, but it's kind of like, yeah, you see, you probably like listen to people. Well, it's like you could probably find situations in your life where you're like, yeah, I do listen to that person. Well, like, who's?
Speaker 1:not going to be. Who's going to be the person who's like actually no, I pretty much zone out in every conversation yeah, you know, so yeah, I know it so interesting. I feel like some of that stuff is so general that you could, or the descriptions are so long about like somebody's sign or whatever that it's like. Well, of course, I could piece out some things from that description that resonate with me because of the description is so long.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, there's gonna be something in there.
Speaker 1:There's gonna be something in there that rings true, yeah.
Speaker 2:I don't think marrying yourself to it. It can be almost like, like you said, kind of an entertaining or fun way to engage with, like something larger than yourself, but I don't even like the like fatalism of it either. You know the like what's that Like? You know like kind of the Sounds dark. You know it's like well, and you're this, this is going to happen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but at the same time, yeah, I've definitely some of those things like Saturn return. They're like oh, this is like 28th to 29th year. I believe it is like you're going to have a huge life change, and I definitely did. I had like health issues and and definitely like, when I'd heard that, it was like kind of after the fact, I was like, whoa, that happened exactly in the time that they mentioned and I was like, wow, it really changed how I saw myself and like engaged with my life and, yeah, like really definitely made me look at things differently. And I remember thinking, whoa, maybe there's something to this and really a lot of people have big changes around them yeah what about you like 28 to 29?
Speaker 2:what about it? Did you have any big life changes?
Speaker 1:28 to 29. I can barely remember yesterday, um 28 to 29, what was going on. I mean, you know I got married at 31.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 1:So, um, I mean, I was younger than 28 or 29 when I met her, but you know, I was probably preparing for, you know, proposal. Okay, you know, like it was probably around that time that I was probably about to propose.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Somewhere there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I can't think of anything like hugely going on there. Yeah, but two things, though, that I want to bring up that I think are funny, wasn't there? I feel like you showed me like some stand-up clip of like some stand-up comedian who like delivered some joke about, yeah, this and that and blah, blah, blah. I mean everybody in the audience like guess what sign I am? And they all like shouted out a sign and he was like yes, I'm totally that. And then, you know, people were like laughing and he was like actually, I'm just kidding. He was like no, I'm not that at all.
Speaker 1:And it was like this, like reverse, where it's like you kind of see what you want in people and he was like yeah, like I knew you were that sign or whatever. And then he, he was like I'm actually not that sign, I'm this. Wait, there was some sort of like stand-up routine where, like a comic did that. It's like right it was like he was like right, Like totally, I'm totally a whatever.
Speaker 2:Nerd yeah.
Speaker 1:Like a Virgo or whatever. Yeah, and all the crowd, yeah. The other thing is didn't you have some sort of thing that told you the best place for you to live was like nova scotia?
Speaker 2:yes, or something like that. Oh my god, yeah see, I can remember some nova scotia so they were like you're supposed to like live on your like jupiter line or something. God I did used to be into this, didn't I see what is unfolding?
Speaker 1:here I. This benign question has the depth.
Speaker 2:It's like you're not supposed to live on one line. And when I first looked this up it was like smack in this line was Chicago Illinois. I was like, oh shit, I'm like not supposed to live there. And then where it was like most like magnetic for me to live was God what's that city in nova scotia? There's a city there's like a city, that it's like the big city there new brunswick, not new brunswick I mean, yeah, the canada of it all, but maybe that'll be a is it wise?
Speaker 1:question yeah, maybe we should google majors is this Canada wise, is Canada wise? Yeah, I mean, they seem to stay out of a lot of things. So maybe it is yeah really Wait, Nova Scotia, let's look this up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like a really nice city there. I started to like look into it.
Speaker 1:No, I remember this conversation. You were like I think I'm about to move. And no, I remember this conversation. You were like I think I'm about to move and I was like what are you talking about? And you were like Nova Scotia. And I was like let's backtrack on this a little bit. What?
Speaker 2:are you talking about?
Speaker 1:Yeah, what's going on here, Nova Scotia, halifax.
Speaker 2:Halifax, it was Halifax, nova Scotia, halifax, there you go, that's the largest.
Speaker 1:That's the capital and the largest metro. Shout out all of our listeners in Halifax.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my brother's sisters in Halifax.
Speaker 1:The population oh, it's bigger than I thought it was going to be. It's almost a million people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it has, and it's like a seaport kind of thing. Yeah, port kind of thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Looked really pretty Well. When we do our live recording from Halifax, we're going to get some people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'll be like this is my home. Well, actually, here's the funny end to that. I don't even maybe I wasn't working there Apparently. I had missearched my own birth date or something I put. It was like March 18th I looked at instead of March 11th, and when I looked at it, chicago was no longer a place that I shouldn't live.
Speaker 3:The line was somewhere else and Halifax was not the place.
Speaker 2:Paris was one of them. Oh well, that's really nice. But then there was like another, there were a few that were like good lines to live on, but Chicago was safe and in the clear. So I felt much better about that and I I you know withdrew my down payment on a place in Halifax Halifax, thank God.
Speaker 1:What if you had moved there and then you said, wait, I entered in the wrong birthday.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Yikes, I was really worried about it and I went back to look at it and then I like looked closer at the date and I was like holy shit, I put the wrong date in. And then I thought to myself because of course I always find meaning in everything I was like it was meant to be that I briefly thought I should live in Nova Scotia and have that curiosity and that like mental experience and then come back and correct it Like I really thought, because I do sometimes think that like everything to me holds a bit of meaning and you are where you're supposed to be at the time. Sure, I do really hold that, not in the way that's like so rigid, but like more generally.
Speaker 2:I'll even say that sometimes if remember we were talking about that like embracing tedium if I'm in like a really boring or difficult situation finding that where it's like you're for some reason you're supposed to be here, because you are here, so it's like how do you fully be here? So I like that part of astrology. I think that piece is wise, but like anything, if, if it, if the like doctrine becomes everything, you've lost you've lost it yeah yeah, you've got to be able to like go back to your own wise mind again you got to step out of it like step out of it, or else it does become that cult yeah, that's the thing.
Speaker 1:Like too much of a good thing right too much of a good thing, not wise not wise as always, we're getting a lot of questions. People are emailing us, so continue to email me with all of your questions. We'll have a question and answer session at some point. Yeah, but but butzjonathan j-o-n-a-t-h-a-n at gmail, keep the questions coming and topics coming yeah, yes, we'd love to cover your topics in our format.
Speaker 2:That would be great, and I'm um again. I'm Kelly Kilgallen, and if you want to find me or work with me, my website is kkpsychotherapycom, so you can reach out to me there, and we'll be back next week with another topic.
Speaker 3:As always, intro and outro music by DJ Blanketfortz. It's not DJ Blanketfortz, it's just Blanketfortz. Check it out on Spotify. He is a DJ. There's not DJ in his Spotify moniker or his musical moniker, but please check it out Blanketfortz, it's great music.
Speaker 1:We love Blanketfortz. Thank you so much. Yes, and thank you.
Speaker 2:That was our producer, josh. Thank you, and thank you as always to josh. Yes, producer extraordinaire. Yeah, the best. See you all in a couple weeks. We'll see you in a couple weeks. Bye. Wise mind happy hour podcast is for entertainment purposes only, not to be treated as medical advice. If you are struggling with your mental health, please seek medical attention or counseling.