The Wise Mind Happy Hour
Two therapists musing about the idea of an inner wise mind and how to connect with this psychic space in different contexts.
The Wise Mind Happy Hour
The Wisdom of "Work-Life Balance"
Is work-life balance a myth in today's world? We tackle this provocative question (and more) in our latest episode of "Wise Mind Happy Hour."
- music by blanket forts -
welcome to the wise mind happy hour yes, welcome back yeah, I'm kelly I'm john, your resident therapist yeah, yes, therapists podcast extraordinaires famous people yeah, and we're, we're starting, but we but we're also halfway into a conversation about two movies that we've both seen I more recently and John less recently which have pretty much nothing to do with our topic today. Work-life balance.
Speaker 3:Buzzword, Buzzword yeah or buzz.
Speaker 2:Is it even a buzzword anymore?
Speaker 1:I mean it feels like a buzz concept. I mean it's an evergreen topic.
Speaker 2:Yes, Right, yeah, what do you think is the genesis? Like, where do you think that even came from, this idea of like work-life balance?
Speaker 1:God, that is interesting. Like where did that really get into the zeitgeist? Maybe when women started working more back in the day, because I feel like traditional households it's like husband just worked the hours that they worked and were home sometimes.
Speaker 3:And wives were just like, did everything else.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you do your part and the other person does their part.
Speaker 1:yeah, that's what it was, totally yeah totally so, maybe because it does feel like it comes up a lot in in like feminist conversations. Women yeah conversations like new moms. I feel like I have so many friends that are new moms and it's like we're life balance is so hard. But yeah, when you hear that word, what do you think? Or that concept?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think of it for some reason. Maybe it's like the recency effect, but like it makes me think of, like, how work-life changed so much with the pandemic and with COVID.
Speaker 1:so much with the pandemic and with COVID.
Speaker 2:Like Zoom. Technology has allowed for people to be like yeah, I can work a couple hours at home and then I can go pick up my kids, and then I can like do these other things while still fitting in the work I need to complete, like in a given day, but I feel like that's been more recent which now we're on the other end of that. We're now companies it seems as though, from what I'm reading, are trying to get people back into the office, which now there's like backlash on that even, but yeah.
Speaker 2:I think I guess the overall concept it makes me think of is just like maybe people putting more of a emphasis on like mental health.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, which, I guess, is why we're talking about this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, you know, which, I guess, is why we're talking about this. Yeah, and how much of your mental health is related to just like time away from work, like living your life? Yeah, probably a lot of it, yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think the sad thing too is that a lot of the clients and the patients that I work with just really struggle with finding their work value aligned for them. They struggle to find meaning in what they're doing. They feel so lost in the cog of a machine. And you know those are just I'm paraphrasing, but those are some of the themes that really like come up.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then because they're so drained from that and kind of doing all of those reflections on is this the right place and is it like? Then I get the sense that they're worn out to do other things in their life outside of work.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And that's where some of maybe the imbalance comes from. Yeah, is they're so drained by, maybe the place they're at? I mean, there's so many things that could contribute to it. And I don't even like the word balance because it makes it feel like it's 50-50. Totally. So, I don't even really like that it's so popular to talk about work-life balance.
Speaker 1:You know how I feel about the word balance.
Speaker 2:You hate balance what.
Speaker 3:I like basically, are we balancing? Stop speaking.
Speaker 1:English.
Speaker 2:What are we balancing? Someone talks about balance speaking english. What are we balancing? Yeah, why do you hate the word balance?
Speaker 1:well, I think exactly what you're getting at it's. It's so vague. It's like are you talking about like total equity between the things?
Speaker 1:right how would you ever capture that in in work and in life? And yeah, it's like, what's the value of balancing? I? I think I heard like rachel ray once on a podcast, or maybe she was like being quoted by someone on a podcast and she was like, yeah, work-life balance. She was like I'm, you know, I'm able to find the balance that I find, you know, kind of like I don't bother with that a little bit and I kind of respected it because it's like it's sort of so hard because it also like presumes that you have full control of that and so many people work for bosses that it's like these are the hours you're working.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And that's it. So it's like, what is the practice there? Then? It's like making the most of your time away from work or setting some boundaries with work, and that varies so much depending on where you work. Like, can you actually set those boundaries? You know some jobs it's like it's a no go.
Speaker 1:And other jobs. It's like you can do it a little my work, I have my own practice. So then it becomes like I can do it whenever I want. So then it's like when do you do it? You know, like work and life they're not like balanced, they're kind of like merged in some ways.
Speaker 1:And then it's like is that, is that wise or is that not wise? Because sometimes it feels like it's not, because it feels like I never I'm definitively in one or the other. And then you feel a little insane, like I guess I could do work here, but I also could do my laundry, but I also could on this errand, or I also could call this friend or Now, what about for you?
Speaker 2:Because we have different schedules right? So, like, my job is 830 to 430 and that's like my job, right yeah. I mean, you dictate your schedule right. So it's like you could be seeing clients patients into the evening yeah, like you could be seeing clients patients into the evening yeah. So how do you navigate that and what are the impacts on what you feel is like I don't know? Now I feel like I can't use the balance with you but like, what's like, what's like balance versus imbalance.
Speaker 2:And how do you? Because I feel like even day to day, that could fluctuate, where it's like one day is maybe more packed I'm seeing more patients or clients versus I have a full day off, maybe because I was able to see a bunch. I don't know I'm curious, like from the private practice perspective yeah it.
Speaker 1:I mean, it literally never feels balanced, it always feels a little crazy, yeah, and it's like miss, I do miss the like leaving the house 830, going home. Yeah, yeah, I definitely miss that. And it's like I know if I went back to it I would fully miss so much about this Because there's such a freedom and it's like I don't ever stress about, like the doctor's appointment, a therapy appointment for myself like getting my prescription.
Speaker 1:I have to get blood work getting my this. I have to get my hair done. I have to. It's like never an issue. Or like we go to Michigan a lot or Cleveland to visit my brother, Michigan to visit Josh's family. It's just like not an issue.
Speaker 1:And then we go. We went this past weekend and Josh and I both worked and I saw clients from the house and honestly, I've done it enough now that I feel totally comfortable there doing it. Josh's mom is also a therapist so she has an office if I need to use it. But really it's like that mobility is so nice. Speaking to the life side of work life. You get so much autonomy in that space. But yeah, the sacrifice is like a kind of chaotic schedule. Sometimes it's like my clients will start at 8 am and then the last one will end at 8 pm and then I'll have these weird breaks in the middle and it's sort of just like. You kind of feel like you're on the clock all day but you're not really and you're like it's a little stressful. It's easier, I think, because Josh works pretty long hours but, like you know, I'm not like missing out on him, like he's not like sitting there watching some fun TV show and I'm like working.
Speaker 1:That would be absolute torture for me, but he's like a work, work, work, work kind of guy, so, which is great. But yeah, it's like. For me it's like work-life balance.
Speaker 1:Mine is just like fucking chaos, like it's like, and I'm trying to like, like you said, like control it. I'm trying to really like not fill the evening slots, have daytime ones, but people want those evening slots. So it's like if you want to be full all the time, always your best bet is to fill those, and I know people that always leave those open and there's people who don't mind working those hours. They're never not full and like. That's not the case for me and I don't even know if I want. Sometimes it's like I don't know how full I ever want to be, but it's like you want that control of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like see, I said I think, in having worked different agencies, organizations, different types of roles, whether it be in leadership versus like direct service, to me the balance feels more like in reflecting, like if I'm doing the thing that I know is like really meaningful yeah, like the work that I'm doing is meaningful, yeah, and I do like really meaningful, yeah, like the work that I'm doing is meaningful, yeah, and I do like the schedule, like I like it to be a little bit more rigid, of knowing, like this is when I arrive and this is when I leave, because then I don't have to like think about that.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That does feel less chaotic, but I think the balance comes from. Oh, this is something that energizes me every day and that energy makes me feel more balanced. I don't wake up and dread it, and I know that that like I'm lucky in that Because there was other positions I was in where and this was a part of my own therapy and trying to like figure things out. But like the idea I know in working with my therapist, talking to me about like what you're good at isn't always good for you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally.
Speaker 2:And I was chasing a lot of like professional things whether it be titles or money or things like that because people were telling me I was good at it.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And there was no balance there, because then it was like striving for things, feeling stressed all the time, and so I feel like the balance has come in, like really knowing what I like to do within the therapy space.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Really feeling energized by it? Not, you know, it's not perfect, but you know, more often than not it energizes me.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it doesn't drain me. More often than not it energizes me. Yeah, and it doesn't drain me and there are draining days is again, it's not perfect, but like that energy, that like vibrating feeling I get of, like oh, like this is going to be like a group we don't know who's coming in, we don't know what they're going to say. You know like, yeah, that type of stuff offers me in a, in a way like a balance of. That type of stuff offers me in a way like a balance of like this is just really meaningful and that like feels good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know, that's not a good descriptor. I feel like what you're talking about I love this is instead of just thinking of the concept as like schedule.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:It's like work-life balance is like. How much like life energy do you feel?
Speaker 2:in your work. Yeah, that's what it is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's like if you go beyond just a concrete element, like are you doing work or finding, carving out something, within your work that breathes life into you.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Then it's like you may not have to be, as like, rigid with the divvying it up or you still could be if you wanted, but it's like that's important to it and I, I feel like I I maybe I'm like too optimistic sometimes and it's like annoying to some of my clients at times, but I find it's like, okay, you hate your job today, tell me about your job.
Speaker 1:And it's like, okay, you hate your job today, tell me about your job. And it's like really trying to find, even if it's some like sliver of the work, something that brings a little of that energy, which can be a complicated discussion, because sometimes, like someone may have that but even not want to talk about it, because it's like I don't want to like this work, it sucks, and I just need to be heard on how much it sucks, which is fair, but often there's something interesting there. Life giving yeah, that really helps with that balance, cause I it's like I feel that so much in being a therapist, but what isn't life-giving is being overworked. Yeah, if they're later, I'm like not so sharp later.
Speaker 3:Sure.
Speaker 1:So it takes more energy to be, sharp and it's like. That's why I'm really like. I honestly think it's best practice for me to practice earlier in the day if I can do it, Because it takes less of my energy, it's more energizing energizing, but it's like I don't have total control of that either. Based on just like, almost like the market you know of, like what people have, what's available and also now I'm doing emdr.
Speaker 1:Emdr can be really intense, so like sometimes people don't want to do it at 9 am and go back to work. They're like crying, they're like really raw. It's kind of tough. I have a couple clients who do it and they're like I'm working from home. It's fine, whatever, but it can be a lot wait now.
Speaker 2:I just thought of something, and this is probably not a revolutionary thought by any means. Why is it not life, work, balance?
Speaker 1:oh my god.
Speaker 2:Question of the year life work, because it's putting work before life yeah, yeah, that's the problem in itself.
Speaker 1:Maybe that right there sets it up.
Speaker 2:Well, but I feel like the way we language it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You're already priming people to think about work first.
Speaker 1:Yeah, how do you balance your life? It's like behemoth.
Speaker 2:It wouldn't a more effective question to be like how are you balancing your life? And then, how does work fit into that?
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:How do you mold work around the life that you want to live? Because even this past week, a lot of like processing in the space was about, like my job it's toxic and this and that. So you know, I was like posing questions about, okay, if your job is not value aligned for you, like certainly we want to explore that how are you moving towards your values or the things that are important to you or that create meaning in your life outside of work?
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it was like blank stares a little bit.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Where it was like. I feel like people invest so much energy into grinding out.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That work has to fulfill us in so many different ways.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I feel like then all that energy is sucked out of. Okay when I'm not in the workspace.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then maybe that could offer me more. That could offset not balance, but it could offset a little bit of all of the suffering I'm doing about work. Yeah, you know, but I do think it's interesting to not have it like life work balance, but it could offset a little bit of all of the suffering I'm doing about work. Yeah, you know. Yeah, but I do think it's interesting to not have it like life-work balance you know, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, it's funny because something that I said recently Josh knows this like when we were going to visit my brother and then go to visit his family and my family came too, I did actually say out loud I was like it's just hard these weekend trips, like I feel like I can't really dig into work in the way I want to like get all my little emails that I've are hanging out there and all my this, and it's like I genuinely felt this desire to like just work and you kind of Josh kind of felt it too, like I just want to dig in and we we both really like our work, so it that's part of it.
Speaker 1:But and then when we were working at your mom's, it was a little bit like cleaning ladies come in this person's dropping off the table for the engagement party, like two of your aunts came by. His grandparents came for lunch the puppy. They have a new dog which needs to go out every 20 minutes essentially and it's like you need to like lock into your work and I have therapy sessions.
Speaker 1:I can't leave them so it's like it was a little chaotic and both of us were kind of like I just want to work, and it's funny because it's like we're like at home with this family, like celebrating our engagement, which we were going to do Saturday and Sunday more fully. But we both were kind of craving focus on work. But you know, maybe actually in a way craving focus on work can be wanting life work balance, because the more focused I am, like, the faster I get through all the charting or all the whatever, and then I can really be present or it's easier to it's.
Speaker 1:I can be present either way, but it's really it's easier to be present.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think what convolutes the whole conversation too is the whole like prescriptive, like wellness culture that people will tell you what balance is in your life, and I think that that's a lot for people to sort through, because I think that people are really lost and inundated with so much information of like, what would be effective for you outside of work to help you balance yourself yeah and so I feel like that can also lead to like stuck in, like well, am I supposed to be doing yoga, because that's a popular thing now am I supposed to be doing like, do I eat?
Speaker 3:like do I yeah?
Speaker 2:do I bake bread because, like people seem to like that during the pandemic does that give you balance?
Speaker 1:like bake bread, that's your religion, or you, you never eat bread. Do I crochet?
Speaker 2:because that seems to be a thing now and it's season to make scarves. I feel like there's so many options and people telling people through any type of medias and obviously they're trying to make money right. I think that that can be confusing for people too, where it's like they don't even know where to start because they don't know what they like. They don't know.
Speaker 2:You know, I know I'm speaking in generalities but, from a lot of patients and clients I've interacted with. It's like I don't know who I am, I don't know what I like. I don't know what I like.
Speaker 1:I don't know what would give me a sense of maybe more contentment outside of the work. You know arena, so then sometimes people will just gravitate towards more work. Yeah, you know well the wellness culture has become like work the way it is now. It's like have you done like these steps and like like it's all to like, like better yourself. It's more like better. You're like physical image, a lot of the time or whatever.
Speaker 1:And then it's like, yeah, it's like meditate this much or else you failed it. Work out this much journal, this much like eat this way. When really like self-compassion as a practice, is that like listen in and like whatever you hear, like be with it, be allowing of it, don't fight what shows up, and I feel like wellness culture is like whittle yourself and your body into the optimum form and it's like so it's so hilariously like capitalistic.
Speaker 1:Yes, it's almost like a cartoon, like God, a capitalism is an absolute disease. I think it is a disease and it's like everything goes to this like just like get to the top, and then, when you realize there's nothing there, find something else to get to the top of. And it's so endless and like it really shows up everywhere. And also all wellness culture. It's like it's all about just selling you things like buying stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I want to get back. I'm going to poke the bear on you with balance. What does balance mean?
Speaker 1:I guess it comes from a scale right.
Speaker 3:Is it contentment? Yes, okay, I guess from a literal definition it's a scale that's even.
Speaker 1:And why does one want a scale or need a scale to be even?
Speaker 2:Yeah, a scale or need a scale to be even.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm sure it was like to measure back in the day, yeah for sure. Are these potatoes worth this many coins or something I don't know. I really wonder why do you need those two? To be even you maybe?
Speaker 2:don't, you don't. But it also just stacks the deck against you because it's never going to be even.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Whose life is even? Even in any facet of your life, it's not going to be even. You can't divide your time evenly.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I feel like it's again another thing where I just don't think that term.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it doesn't make any real sense.
Speaker 2:It doesn't, and I think it does a disservice to the complexities of just like people and like their lives and how much time they have to devote to different things.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And then it's, like you know in my experience, like throwing in kids. It's like yeah you know, you come home, you have a set schedule, but you come home, but then it's like homework dinner, it's like you know, and I've I've talked about that in previous podcasts but it's like, well, where's the balance on all of that? Like yeah, and am I balancing myself? Am I balancing my family? Like how much time? Like I, you know, it's like what, what does? That even mean right you know, right, god.
Speaker 1:I just like really had a moment thinking like and I'm sure you have this experience like does does helping your kids with their homework give you like flashbacks to like hating your own homework?
Speaker 2:a hundred percent. I hate my kids homework oh my god, because I I hated my homework, so much I hate it, my, my thinking about it, my uh, my oldest wes is doing long division, oh, and so I'm like but they teach them math in a different way, so it's like I know new math right?
Speaker 2:yeah, one of my, one of my clients, so he'll like come home and I'll be like well, that's not the way they do it. And I was like well, wes, this is the way I learned it. I can't change the way I learned it and I'm not. I don't want to teach you a way that your teacher's not teaching you. So it becomes like a little bit of like a systemic, like kind of like anxiety thing, where it's like then he gets frustrated a little bit, understandably so, because long division's hard yeah and I'm like frustrated because I'm like I don't know the kind of way you're doing it.
Speaker 2:Anyway, yeah, doing homework with kids is like oh, it's a new hurdle for me because he's getting into like some more difficult, especially with the math, because I'm not that good at it yeah, and he's at the age where they kind of need help yeah, and math is one of those subjects that it builds right, like if you don't, if you don't understand, uh concepts yeah they're going to build on that concept, so you need to understand that concept to build on the next concept right.
Speaker 3:Like so it's like yeah, so but you know what?
Speaker 2:He's been so resilient. It's been amazing to see him Like he. He's asking more questions and he went. He like went to to this, like it was like really brave. He went to this like study session before school. He was the only kid that went and he did it. He walked in there, he like sat down.
Speaker 2:He had like one of the other teachers help him out with like some stuff and like that. Those are the types of moves where it's like when I feel like I can't be resilient in my life. Those are like yeah moments that are really touching to me where it's like look at this guy, this nine-year-old guy yeah walking into a room first time not knowing nobody's there.
Speaker 1:Wow like yeah anyway that's almost like I could go on. That's almost like a bigger lesson than a math lesson.
Speaker 2:That's just a proud yeah pop-up moment right there, where it's just like Totally Go West. Nine years old and resilient as fuck.
Speaker 1:Wow, sorry, edit that out, josh. Edit that out, just like walking in, walking in. Yeah, because I feel like, oh my God, I feel like when I would go to office hours, even in college, like the two times I ever went.
Speaker 3:It's intimidating.
Speaker 1:Absolutely terrifying. I took a class hardest class I've ever taken. It's called logic and critical analysis. In college, the teacher at the beginning of the class. He goes. More of you than you think are going to fail this class. He goes and I have office hours every week and no one comes. And he was like you should come, because this is incredibly difficult. It was basically like math in another language. It was like using all these symbols.
Speaker 3:It was crazy how hard it was.
Speaker 1:And he was like I know you're not going to come. I get the speech every year, but that's going to happen, kind of like I'm laying it out there. He also like one time someone left the class early and he was like he said to the rest of us he goes. You know, that's very rude. And then he, then he turned back to the blackboard and he goes. I just worry about your souls. I laughed so hard. I was like I love this guy. He's like so intense but yeah, like going even in college. It's like scary. You're like what if I sit in front of this person and show them how stupid I am?
Speaker 2:like that's the thing that's very vulnerable and resilient about it is. You're basically going there to say I need help yeah like I'm a, it's like going to therapy. It's like I'm struggling right now. I need help.
Speaker 1:That's a very resilient yeah move, yeah, to be to really say like I don't have it all figured out, I'm hanging by a thread or whatever like or just like.
Speaker 2:This is just not making sense.
Speaker 1:I know sometimes when people are even like coming to therapy itself is vulnerable. Come but come in and are really like so vulnerable I want to like slow clap on their first session, like look at you, yeah, this means you're gonna be okay yeah, you're even in here.
Speaker 2:You're here doing this. People vote with their feet yeah, you vote.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you always say that you vote with your feet, with your feet going in and just being like yeah, this is going on yeah, I might not say much, but I'm here but I'm here, I'm ready for something wait, I just had another thought about balance yeah, I feel like I've weird from this topic now, but that's right we got into the homework of it all. Yeah, oh I can't even think about it.
Speaker 2:Homework with your children do you want to come over and help?
Speaker 1:I, I, I dissociated. As you started talking about it, I was like great, he's gonna have to do that'll be great wes and shane will love it yeah, I know I would sit there and I would sit there and empathize with how much they hate it. You could start with Shane, yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, first grade A little bit more doable.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:A little bit more. Oh.
Speaker 1:God, not long division.
Speaker 2:No the other thing I was thinking about because, like, how much does social interaction play into the balance? Because even right now I'm feeling more balanced like we haven't done this podcast for people who don't know. We had to take a little bit of a hiatus. I got sick right, so we canceled. But even this, right now talking just like if I'm dropping in this, makes me feel balanced. So I'm wondering about also just the social component yeah of it and how important that is. For again, I don't know what balance means, but Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like, and that's like. Well, it's true, it's like. Even the word life is so vague, right, because, like you spend enough hours at work, it is your life in many ways, especially if you have relationships there you actually value that aren't just like functional and it's like joe's, like me never there well, that's gonna I mean that might lead into a question that might be a teaser into is it why, or is it why segment?
Speaker 1:yeah, exactly, but yeah, it's like I keep thinking about this idea of like life and like life force or almost like you know the um I'm like so obsessed with the therapist Esther Perel.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:She in her podcast. She on had Miranda July on her podcast who may? She wrote a book recently, right? Is it a book? Oh, yeah, it's a book. Yeah, cause she's also a filmmaker.
Speaker 1:So I got confused for a second if she had a new book or a new movie called all fours and it's supposed to be great, like it's very out there and and especially like a lot of women are reading it. It's about a woman kind of rediscovering her sexuality in her 40s and she went on esther perell's podcast and she actually did Esther Perel's like couples course and then they talk about it on the podcast. It's just such an interesting episode. But Esther Perel talked about how, like Americans often separate like cause she's a sex therapist. Really she's a couples therapist but she's a sex therapist and she she's like Americans separate, like something called like and she's kind sex therapist and she's like Americans separate like something called like, and she's kind of specializes a little bit in affairs.
Speaker 1:She wrote a book on affairs and why they happen and whatever, but she's like Americans are the only ones that separate like emotional affairs and like physical affairs. You know, like there's some huge distinction and the more grave of the two is the physical affair, which she finds really interesting, cause she's like sex is just like a medium for eroticism, and like. Eroticism literally translates, I think, basically to like aliveness, like the sense of aliveness. She's like the act of sex is like nothing without aliveness within it. And like we do this separating of like.
Speaker 1:All that matters is the concrete thing and I keep thinking about that idea of like aliveness and she's like there can be eroticism in, like hugging someone, you know, if there's like a sense of like vibrancy there and you could even think of. I mean, it sounds ridiculous to bring eroticism to work like, as we know the term, but like bringing aliveness to the things that you do, whatever they are, whether it's work or home, like aliveness when you hang out with your kids and do homework, like how do you feel like both energized and like alive, you know, and not just like dragging ourselves through this to get to bed, because some days I feel like I'm just like waiting till bed yeah
Speaker 1:because I'm like overworked or whatever, but it's that's such an interesting idea to me and like this work life question, do you even need to bother with this, like trying to quote, balance them, if you're thinking more of like how do I really show up fully to each? And sometimes showing up fully to work is actually like if you tune truly into yourself. It's like I'm gonna set this boundary with my boss.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, I'm gonna say I'm going to this doctor's appointment are you saying like showing up to like the different facets of your life in that way? Yeah, and then that's the byproduct of that could be feeling more.
Speaker 1:Balanced. Balanced in your life, or like at an equilibrium.
Speaker 2:And maybe equilibrium is a better term for it. Not that it's ever going to.
Speaker 1:Right Like perfect.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I keep thinking about that podcast ever since she said that.
Speaker 3:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:Like she says, so many interesting like paradoxes, mm-hmm, you know, yeah, it's like it's so interesting, this work-life concept like, or life work, it's kind of an annoying question, but yeah, it's like evergreen because it's posing something we don't control completely. So then it's like even heavier to hold the concept, because you're like, if you realize, like I work, if someone works I mean my brother works like 80 hours a week as a doctor.
Speaker 1:And I mean it's like he's at a hospital caring for sick children, so like he's there the hours he's there. So then it's like what, at a hospital caring for sick children, so like he's there the hours he's there so then it's like what's your work-life balance? Like it's like I don't know, but I do know he's a very present dad when he's home yeah when he's not sleeping, which he's trying to get as much sleep as he can, working those hours.
Speaker 2:But, like but I but that's. The thing too is like the time makes it more convoluted because, he might feel balance in his life and it doesn't really matter the amount of hours he works. That's the other thing with balance that gets. I think it's. There's so many different things that muddy the water with it and I think it's the time yeah, because people then want to parse out will balance again the 50-50 thing.
Speaker 2:If I spend 40 hours at work, let's say, in a given day, then it should just be 40 so that I have this amount of hours outside of there. And it's like some people can work 60 hours and some people can work 80 hours and still feel that they're living a very fulfilling life Right.
Speaker 2:You know, where they feel like they are caring for themselves and their families and their mental health and their you know. And so I mean, certainly, with all of these concepts we talk about, there is like so much nuance, and I just think what we're coming back to is the term's just not that helpful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because it doesn't give you anything. Yeah, it doesn't.
Speaker 2:There's too much. That's like packed into it, yeah, or that. It could mean in so many different interpretations that I just don't know how helpful it is as a term.
Speaker 1:Right, I don't think it is a helpful term.
Speaker 2:Or not a wise term. We don't think it is a helpful term or not a wise we're scrapping it. But is this the first iteration of us being like? We're the first people ever we're the first people to say you know we're scrapping it.
Speaker 1:We're scrapping it.
Speaker 3:I'm also scrapping the concept of homework could have been scrapped a long time ago.
Speaker 2:Dialogue yeah, I'm just also trying to like tap in and think about what have I felt most balanced in my life? I know that term.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, god. Great question, I don't know. Yeah, what do you think?
Speaker 2:I don't know, but part of me wants to go to and this is just probably how I operate is just like routine. Operate is just like routine. Yeah, like knowing the schedule, knowing what's coming, knowing how much time I needed to vote. Yeah, that's.
Speaker 1:That's sometimes when I feel like when it's less chaotic, when there's less curveballs yeah, I think I feel a little bit more like that's just me personally, yeah honestly, if we're thinking like, feeling like, oh, my work is not like overcrowding me.
Speaker 1:Probably the most I ever felt that was when I started at the place we worked in when I first started there, cause I had gone from a place that I was having dreams about work and emails and like so unbelievably overwhelmed to like a way, pared down, more focused role, god, I remember like walking out of there in the first week like sister wheel. This is great, really feeling so good and that lasted for a really long time, just so nice, yeah wait. But you know what's funny? The question of work life balance a little bit gets us back to the second movie we were going to talk about, which is there Will Be Blood oh my god because work-life balance is kind of in there.
Speaker 2:He has none, okay, I was gonna say um tell me more so like work and like earning of money and accumulation of like power and wealth absolutely consuming a person yeah, I mean, I don't, I, I don't even think it's, I think it's life for him yeah it, they're one and the same like it was. It was his life. Yeah, was to become rich, and and not only become rich, but just be as ruthless as possible and take other people's money and just no matter what right right right, well, yeah, like you know what's funny, like that early scene before there's any dialogue, where he's like alone and what is it like?
Speaker 2:18 oh yeah, does he like fall down a shaft and break his leg?
Speaker 1:yeah, so he's like working on it and then he falls we're're speaking about Daniel Day-Lewis.
Speaker 3:Daniel Day-Lewis yeah, Probably the greatest actor of all time An absolute legend.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:He pulls himself out of it and drags himself to go like turn in. You know the oil he produced.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I turned to.
Speaker 1:Josh and I was like so we're supposed to think this guy's like pretty determined.
Speaker 2:And Josh was like yeah, yeah, like that's the whole idea. That's a light interpretation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it's like an understatement, but I I thought that was a great way they showed that too like yeah the obsession with this like right oil production but also at the end of them.
Speaker 2:I mean from what I remember and I haven't seen in a while, but from what I remember is just never enough yeah it just like that final. I mean he's alone in a huge mansion, I believe like yeah and yeah, that last scene is very disturbing with paul dano. Is that his name paul or paul?
Speaker 1:dano, yeah, totally the preacher. He's a great actor too um yeah but like what like that's so funny that you say paul dano is a good actor because josh has a friend who, like, is determined to believe that that role should have been played by someone else than paul dano, because he's like it, maybe thought it was like cheesy, or whatever. I I'm like. I think it's supposed to be cheesy because ultimately he is a phony, the priest.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think, I think it completely nailed it. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Like it's supposed to seem, like kind of ridiculous.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And if someone sold it more, like I don't know if it would have worked.
Speaker 2:I didn't get that vibe at all. I actually thought I agree with you.
Speaker 3:I thought it was.
Speaker 2:I thought he played that role very well. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally, I mean, I thought I thought the movie was really good.
Speaker 2:It's a long one Poster child for work-life balance Daniel Day-Lewis.
Speaker 1:Well, actually, oh my God, speaking of think about him in his real life, he's a method actor yeah, that's true he's the most famous method actor yeah people are like he's wearing the clothes from colonial times at cvs, like or whatever, and he's like talking in the accent and everyone's like this guy's.
Speaker 2:I think I read something anecdotally that, like when he was doing last of the mohicans, he like ended up like hallucinating because he was only eating yeah, of course Foods that people of that time were eating.
Speaker 3:And so he was like malnourished. It's like scurvy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, and he was like totally doing like a complete detriment to his health.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well that's so interesting Method acting, yeah, talk, that's so interesting.
Speaker 2:Method acting. Yeah, talk about balance there, right, I mean.
Speaker 1:I almost think what do you think of this? I almost think there's like method therapists, probably to an extent people who kind of like never leave that kind of role.
Speaker 2:Oh, interesting.
Speaker 1:Well, actually then there's the reverse, like people who, when they're in the therapy role, they're not that different they're pretty much the same as their normal selves. I feel like I I don't go in there with like a hey. You know, like I I go in there like hey, yeah no, I'm pretty much me yeah, you are definitely. I can attest to that.
Speaker 2:You can attest to it, you've seen me because I'm talking about my struggles, I'm talking, talking about the things in my life. I'm telling people I got kids, I got like you know. I mean I'm not like telling them everything about me.
Speaker 3:Showing them my live journal.
Speaker 2:You're not going to see me much different outside of you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the therapist space.
Speaker 2:But yeah, that is an interesting thing to think about, like somebody who's like always a therapist.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally.
Speaker 2:Like that's. Yeah, I'm kind of having a reaction to that, Like that would be really off-putting to me, I feel like I know.
Speaker 1:I feel like when I've kind of met those types, I'm a little like what is this?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Or like always wanting to like conceptualize something.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You know, Well now, I like always wanting, to like, conceptualize something, yeah. But you know, well, now I'm like does anyone think of me like that?
Speaker 2:I'm trying to think, yeah, this is actually, this is but I think I genuinely am josh and I. This is an intervention right now.
Speaker 1:Actually, we were going to talk to you about that you're a little bit, yeah, but it's like I'm genuinely curious as a person, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I think that is my natural state, like of like interest, what's going on there, or like whatever that's different, though, than somebody who's in, and the only thing I can think about is, like people who do the therapy voice non-stop yeah, yes like you know, even though we're authentically ourselves, like there are moments where we'd like do the voice and you know, you bring it down a little bit. Yeah, you know, like that's not inauthentic, that's like you're meeting the patient. Yeah, we're bringing it down Right.
Speaker 1:Or it's like disarming sometimes.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Maybe someone has trauma or someone you know you're not overwhelming them Exactly, but they're like when people people don't shut that off. Yeah, in just like a normal conversation about like anything yeah Like oh. God, I went to the grocery store and they didn't get my you know, I wasn't able to get my coffee. They didn't have my brand there. And then the person's like, yeah, and how was that for you, were you, were you able to get through that? Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's like you gotta be like that sucks. It's like anyway, yeah, it's just like yeah yeah, fucking piss me off like wait, like just move on from it like don't like you know.
Speaker 3:Like, edit that f out, sorry no, I keep doing it too, but it's yeah, that that whole like therapy voice type of thing like non stop.
Speaker 1:That can be a little bit like yeah, I wonder if people feel that about like daniel day lewis. Like people are probably there's probably half the people on those sets that are just like rolling their eyes, like yeah, didn't he like sign every like thing when he was abe lincoln, as like abe, yeah, like he was like, yeah, he like thought he was abe lincoln, yeah, yeah he's like writing notes to people.
Speaker 1:He's like abe yeah, I heard someone once say they were like if someone has to become a method actor to act it means they're not a good actor. I was like oh, that's an interesting take. Like if you have to completely start wearing colonial clothes to get into it. Like it's kind of not what the practice is yeah. Or the art.
Speaker 2:It's like getting into the space and getting out of it you know, it's like getting into the space and getting out of it. You know, again another anecdotal thing I remember seeing, but like there's this old movie called marathon man from the 70s with um they've referenced it on gilmore girls, but I don't know that movie you don't know, it's got lawrence olivier in it and it also has dustin hoffman.
Speaker 2:It's kind of a hard movie to describe, but Dustin Hoffman is going through, he's being chased, he's being whatever, and so he's running rampant through New York or whatever for days not getting sleep, and this and that, and so he's a method actor. He stayed up a couple days.
Speaker 2:He's a method actor. I think in that role at least he was Wow and he arrived on set. He's all dis actor. I think in that role at least he was Wow and he like, arrived on set. He's all disheveled because he kept himself up and he didn't sleep. Wow and like he's working with Laurence Olivier, who's like classically trained and this and that, and it was kind of like this thing of like Dustin Hoffman asking him like well, you know, how would you approach this scene? And he was like what do you mean?
Speaker 3:It's called acting like it's, you know, like that whole idea of like I wouldn't stay up nights on end. It's like you act as if you were, as if you were up for nights on end like you don't have to like do the thing to like you act the thing you know it's called acting, so I love stories like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're just like all right, got it it.
Speaker 2:I mean, certainly people go so method and it's like Christian Bale and that Machinist movie. Did you ever see that?
Speaker 1:I never saw that movie.
Speaker 2:I know he famously. It's very disturbing.
Speaker 1:He's maybe going psychotic, becoming having psychosis.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and just not eating and losing so much weight and it's really yeah, he's like not eating and losing so much weight and it's really.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he's always losing and gaining, and losing and gaining.
Speaker 2:It's really hard to watch. I don't love this. It's really hard to watch.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like that's all anyone ever reports. Very scary. And then he was like wasn't he method in the Terminator? And that's what he flipped out on like a grip or something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I listened to that rant.
Speaker 1:It's like 10 minutes long.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's crazy.
Speaker 2:Well, he almost did himself a disservice because he lost so much weight in that machinist that he almost didn't get Batman, because they thought he wasn't going to be able to put on enough muscle.
Speaker 1:Good God and like gain it back, but he did, did it. For Batman.
Speaker 2:We're going to turn our podcast into a movie podcast.
Speaker 3:I know gonna turn our podcast into a movie. I know it's so fun to talk about.
Speaker 1:It's so fun to talk about movies. Yeah, well, it's like it's interesting to think about actors and work-life balance too like well, they're always traveling too yeah, well, that yeah, people who travel for work yeah, that's a whole nother yeah, or like jobs which we don't have this job at all because we like literally can't do this pretty much at our work. I guess you could, but like whining and dining clients yeah that's like you're going to a bulls game.
Speaker 1:You're going to a dinner. That's really nice. That definitely feels like aliveness. I love to go out to eat. So it's like, yeah, where's the line there? That's when people are like a workaholic slash. They're just like always out with clients like schmoozing and socializing, getting a lot of like juice from that, and their families like at home doing homework man, you can't get over the homework right now.
Speaker 2:I've traumatized you with the homework conversation. I do think, though, for me I do think there's something to be said personally for me, for like routine almost like that idea of redundancies. Like my plants are always something that I like tend to at night, like that's something that makes me feel again, whether it's contentment or balanced, or but it's like there's a moment each night where I go to my plants.
Speaker 1:I look at them, it sounds nice.
Speaker 2:I tend to them whether they need, you know, even if I'm just looking at them, right, and I feel like that gives me just a little bit of like, okay, this is something I enjoy, right. And also like, no matter how stressful the day is, like they're waiting for me, like it's.
Speaker 2:You know, it's like that same thing with my kids and like playing games with them or like you know that's something that I can look forward to, that's that's at least right now in the iteration of their lives. Like they want to do that stuff with me, right. Like they want to play the games, and so some days it's harder than others, right, it's not easy all the time, because sometimes I don't feel like it, but it's like some of those routines that we're in do give me more of a sense of like stability.
Speaker 2:Maybe it's like work life stability or something, or maybe like life stability, or just having some things that anchor you, I don't know. See, now I'm just getting just confused, really Totally About this whole concept.
Speaker 1:It's like words that don't capture the essence or anything really useful.
Speaker 2:I think you know the other thing, that, and I don't know where any of your parents are at with this, but I think work-life balance is an interesting concept to think about when people retire.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, yeah, none of my parents are retired yet. Like, my mom is kind of partially retired, but she is starting a new job on Thursday.
Speaker 2:Because I'm wondering if there's a version of it, if, when you leave your work or your job or your career, when your life is completely upended which it's probably going to be a little bit, because, like, that's just a huge change and a huge shift.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:There's grief, there's loss, you know so many things. But if you're completely like upended by that and like I'm wondering, okay, is that an indicator of like no real balance? In your life, because you were so over-identified maybe with your job, your career, your work, that there wasn't anything else really that you were valuing, going on creating meaning in your life. That, like I don't know, my mind just kind of went to like thinking about like, when you don't have your job, like what if you didn't have your job? Like tomorrow, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like, of course that would feel like chaotic and it wouldn't be any balance. But what would you balance yourself with then?
Speaker 1:Oh, I think I'd be just fine personally, Like not to be like. Oh, I'm great, but it's like I do feel like I've done a lot of work on like who I am at a deeper, spiritual level and nobody ever figures that out completely.
Speaker 1:But it's like I'm trying to think of, like, because it's such a big concept, but like or well, this is what they always use this like term. On this, the Jungian podcast I listen to They'll say something like that Like, if someone retires and has a total crisis of identity, they have an under-constellated self. So like, the self that's like beneath everything, that's not ego, because ego takes care of the functions, right, work is a function, takes care of the functions, right. Work is a function. Like the deeper, like I am-ness.
Speaker 1:That's not tied to role here, role here objective thing about you here Like the part of you that just like lives and breathes and experiences. The part of you that like tastes the strawberry. You know like I think some people like spend so little time engaging with that part that it's almost like scary to be left with so much of it. You know. Or like I feel like in hinduism there's a concept of like, the part of you that experiences the essence. It's like we really live in a culture that like does not honor that. It is that like make the ego achieve and accumulate and strive, and almost evenly, there's like get to retirement so you can just relax. And then you get there and people are like really struggling. But then maybe some people really do start to consolidate that self, even late, and then that's why maybe some people in these like assisted livings and stuff, some people are like thriving there because they find like a sense of connection or like ease so here's the million dollar question.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You have a patient tomorrow, 8 am your first patient.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And they come in and they say I just need to work on my work-life balance, kelly.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Where do I start, now that we've not figured out anything about this, just talked about this. Yeah, somebody comes in tomorrow and just says that's my presenting problem work-life balance.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm so curious where you'd start. I know I would probably say tell me what makes you want to work on that. I would get all the other info around it. You know? Oh, because my work is overwhelming me. I'm not liking it and I would do like tons of exploring of like what that feels like and then what's the other side? What does balance mean to? You usually it's like then we would get to something else ultimately yeah and sometimes that can be somewhere.
Speaker 1:I err too much on meaning like what's underneath, and some people are kind of like I just want some strategies for this, which you know in some cases, sure, but more, almost more interested in. Why is it imbalanced, or why do you even see it that way? Yeah you know what's that narrative? What's that like relationship to self? Yeah always come back there. Why do you think it's out of balance?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think that's where I would start too yeah, like what is it that feels out of balance? Or even like what? How would you define like work like that? I would also be curious of like, just like people's, like programming, like what have you been programmed to think about?
Speaker 2:this Like what messages have you received from whatever culture, family systems you know, race, religion, whatever that like. What has informed your relational framework? Yeah, in your mind of what that would look like? Yeah, you know. And is that really like a frame that is moving you towards things in your life that are meaningful or not? Yeah or is it even possible to like have, whatever the framework, is that you've been programmed to think about it?
Speaker 1:yeah, I always think about. There's someone I went to college with. Like the architecture school at the college I went to was, like, famously very intense and he was in it.
Speaker 1:He was like the only one. It seemed like all the other architecture students were like baffled by how he would just like focus, get all his work done and then like be at every party and seemed to like really, at a young age, have like a healthy, like sense of boundaries. I guess it was. Yeah, I still think about him because people would talk about him like what the hell that?
Speaker 2:makes me think is they're also an embedded understanding that work-life balance should be effortless yeah, yeah because is because would that even also lead people to like it should look effortless, it should look easy yeah in a way.
Speaker 1:I should be perfect, I should be yeah.
Speaker 2:Like which Lee? You know like well these other people could do it. They look like in that example like how many? People were like comparing themselves probably to that person and be like God. They got their shit figured out.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, they got the balance. Like, how did they get to that balance? Yeah, and I don't know if that is I.
Speaker 2:I think more balance in your life actually takes probably more work than people think yeah, and it isn't an effortless thing yeah I think it's an actual ongoing thing that you have to work at and cultivate yeah, probably a lot more than people would like to think. And that's the problem. Getting back to capitalism, where it's like they tell you, quote, unquote, they right, but like we get these messages that it's this one thing that's really going to give you that balance in your life, and it's like it's that is not true. No, you know, it's not the one thing and it's probably going to take a lot more work than what you're selling, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally, and yeah, it's like it's supposed to be effortful, but maybe there is a type of effort Like, because I think some of the effort definitely even for me too is most of the effort possibly is going into like torturing myself about how imbalanced it can feel.
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 1:You know, like judging and like what it sucks. Like that can feel. Sure, you know, like judging and like what it sucks, that can be the effort, whereas like, maybe the effort is best of like, if I don't like it, what don't I like about it? And where do I have some agency in this?
Speaker 3:And where do I not have?
Speaker 1:some. So today we're asking how wise is it to make friends with your coworkers? How wise is it to make friends with your coworkers?
Speaker 2:How wise is it to make friends with your coworkers.
Speaker 1:As two coworkers who identify as friends, who identify as friends are asking the question how wise is it? How wise is it? I mean, I think this is another kind of rich topic, right? Well, yeah, what do you think?
Speaker 2:I think it's shifted from what I've seen.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Now, granted, every field is different, right, and I've talked to people in so many different fields where it's like total enmeshment, people doing whatever with each other. They're in constant contact. They're going out all the time with one another. You know, I don't think necessarily the workplaces I've been in have been like that.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I have seen that probably, maybe, as I've gotten older people are very, maybe younger clinicians that I've worked with are very, very quick to like and it could just be the product of being connected through social media and you know all those types of things like just make more constant connection but like very quick to like make friends want to hang out and things like that Now I kind of gear on the other side of like not really liking many people.
Speaker 2:you know that about me Um, so I'm not quick to make friends with work there's. There's like a kind of a time period of like assessing, yeah, um, and being like maybe you know like yeah so I'm very cautious. I lean on the cautious end of that yeah, because I just think there's so many problems I can create oh, yeah, yeah you know, but obviously I'm friends with my coworkers, I'm friends with you, yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm friends with other coworkers that both of us have worked with right. Yeah, and been very friendly with. Yeah, I think it gets messy though.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think so too. We recently watched that show Industry, and part of that show is like everyone's sleeping with everyone and the workplace. It's crazy, yeah, and it's like obviously that's like part of the show, but yeah, it's like, but that exists slippery slope, and that does exist. Totally like dating. I've heard stories from friends in like other industries especially like those more like businessy salesy we go out with clients and wine and dine them kind of places.
Speaker 1:There's more of that going on and, yeah, it's like what's can be unwise about that is like those boundaries are so blurred, you know, and it's like I think you can have friendships at work and be boundaried, of course, and like you have to tow that line a little bit.
Speaker 2:You can also just have friendships at work that are friends at work. Yeah, that you don't see outside of work, right when it's like yeah, that's like my go-to at work right, Like that's my person, that like my safe space, my friend at work, and we never hang out outside of work.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, and I think that that would probably be more where I, especially early in my career, was like I would be very picky about like one or two people and I was like, ok, as I guess I know them, those are my friends at work Right, but if they were ever like, hey, do you want to be? Like no, I don't, we're not outside.
Speaker 1:I've loosened that a little bit but like yeah, but it was very, I was very like I wonder where that comes from, but I was very rigid a little bit about that and like didn't want, I don't know, maybe because I was like worried that would reflect badly on me or something, yeah, or maybe I just didn't want people to know about my life outside of work, but yeah, I think I probably err a little too much on, maybe, the friends, because I also, like I know, like even in the work, you know this I don't have that much of a filter, so it's like close the office door.
Speaker 2:Huge reveal, it's huge reveal.
Speaker 1:Like no holds barred, like I will say anything on my mind and then you're like all right, should I have shared that? Should I have shared my true feelings about that other co-worker of ours, or whatever it's like yeah, but it's, it's never come.
Speaker 2:That I mean. I just don't think it came across probably as harsh as you ever thought it was. It was just more of an authentic experience and probably what you were feeling more often than not when you would say something I'm like yeah, thank God, somebody fucking said it.
Speaker 1:Right, because it's like Well, yeah, it's like you go in a meeting and something insane happens. Yeah, or some new rule is imposed and you're like-.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:What is?
Speaker 2:this yeah, is imposed and you're like yeah, what is this? Yeah, or you're being shamed for having fun at work, and then it was like, yeah, are we?
Speaker 1:is this a prison? Is this what's happening? Yeah, we can't like have some like fun moments right, yeah, on a friday on a friday at 3 30, like we can't just do something fun.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I I know and I think that does build a lot of like connection at work, that like that vulnerability and being like more open about that, and I think that's something that's been a very slow learning thing for me and, I think, sharing an office with you yeah like I think that was like a really nice indoctrination of you. Can be vulnerable to people at work and that's okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally, and it can work, and it can work.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you all can drag me for certain stuff and I can put up with it.
Speaker 1:It's great. It's so fun To drag, and be dragged is like a joy at work.
Speaker 2:Totally.
Speaker 1:You know who dragged me the other day my barber. About your hair Totally.
Speaker 2:I love my barber. Caesar Shout out Caesar. I went to him and he's cutting my hair and I hadn't got it cut in a while, so we were just catching up and I was like you know, he was kind of done and I was like can you just take a little bit more off the top? He's like sure. So you know, he takes a little bit more off the top. And then he's just like yeah, I just didn't want to go too far, john. You know, you're kind of thinning up there and I was like I was like I know, I know.
Speaker 2:Ever since I turned 40, I was like oh god, my hair is thinning on top. But he like totally, like just long tear. I'm like, listen, man, I know what's happening. We don't get a voice set, but it was just like such a subtle it was such a subtle like drag, I was just like laughing to myself because he was just like I mean, you know, didn't want to go too short, you're thinning up there, man, I was like nice, well done.
Speaker 1:Yeah, god, it was just so funny. I'm trying to think if I've ever had a hairdresser, I must have had a hairdresser do that, because they usually can be a little sassy. Mine now is like so sweet, oh and.
Speaker 2:I go to like a barber shop.
Speaker 1:Oh well, that's their whole trait it is five chairs, everybody.
Speaker 2:Nobody's facing the mirror, everybody's facing one another and chatting and just chatting yeah, my god, that's a dream yeah, all the barbers are chatting everybody's ripping on everybody that's so it's like it is like straight up, I love it like it's great they got the music playing you know sometimes tv, sometimes TV sports games on, but it's like it is that feel of like these Chicago guys like just kind of like chatting it up and you know, just dropping some burns every once in a while.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, I love that. Like female centered salons, like the experience is more like you're chatting with your hairdresser, like you are a friend speaking of. Like you know the like line between like transactional and friendship chatting about your lives, like catching up whatever. And then you'll usually like over here, typically some like rich lady telling some like insane story about their rich life and you're like kind of slowly like quieting down to just like listen to whatever like my nanny just doesn't get it.
Speaker 1:The kids are keto or you know, whatever, yeah and you're like this is I can't make this stuff up. Yeah, so it's like more overheard at the salon that should be like a blog overheard at the salon. Yeah kind of thing it's like, and then you get your hair colored and they're like that'll be like a blog overheard at the salon, yeah, kind of thing. It's like and then you get your hair colored and they're like that'll be 700. You're like what?
Speaker 2:this person's like I mean, I'm just struggling right now. My maid is becoming complacent yeah, or so you know like, and you're like wait what?
Speaker 1:yeah, wait, I heard someone say that they like. Heard someone say like thank god, thank god for the help, or like we've been blessed with great help. Oh, and the person couldn't figure out if they had said great help or great health. They were like I think they were talking about their mate. Like I think they were saying their health.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've been blessed with great help.
Speaker 1:Yes, that's what makes our lives like great. I was like. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's kind of. That's a lot of experience. But yeah, I mean long story short. I think it's wise to make friends at work, but kind of with like an asterisk.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it is too.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think it's hard for me.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So how wise is it? It's wise.
Speaker 1:It's wise, it could be wise, I think it's wise, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:You know what this makes me think of. This is a great story about Kelly. So there's been many iterations, when we used to work together, of like office space and like people like moving their offices, and so when I came down there to Chicago the chicago location it was it was me, you, it was an office of three people me, you and kristen right, yeah, yeah and then there was this like version of it, where they moved us and so you and I had our own offices yeah but they were right next to each other yeah and covet is that what it was?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, it was covered yeah, so then everybody had like their own, because we were all supposed to be separate. We were all supposed to be separate, and without fail and without asking. Kelly would just bring her lunch into my office just to eat.
Speaker 1:We were like, definitely not supposed to like. We were like it was like.
Speaker 2:It wasn't like a mandate, but it was like eat at your desk, wipe your desk down, this and that.
Speaker 3:And without fail, every day.
Speaker 2:I'm sitting, kelly just walks in Like just with a bowl of salad, homemade dressing with shallots. I mean it smelled amazing, but just without fail, just didn't even ask, just like, walks right in, plops down on the couch in my office, starts eating her lunch. I know it was terrible. It was so amazing that there was just no preamble. It wasn't even like are we eating lunch today, are we not? Yeah, do you want to eat lunch alone? Do you got something to catch?
Speaker 1:up on.
Speaker 2:I would never ask it just came in, just immediately came in and sat down, which you know. It was so funny when it would happen and I always enjoyed it because it was just like talking to you and we're friends. But it was just so funny that comfort level, I'm just going to go in there.
Speaker 1:I'm just going to start eating. Yeah, I would. I would most of the time not have any self-awareness about it, but then when your supervisor was in there, she would have a face on like what are you doing? And I was like, oh, she thinks it's weird that. I was like maybe it is weird.
Speaker 2:She's like I'm trying to get some supervision from John Kelly's, like I could be a part of this, why not? What are you guys talking about? Anything personal?
Speaker 1:I'm in. Yeah, it's better than being alone over there.
Speaker 2:Am I right? I don't think you ate lunch in your office one time.
Speaker 3:No, I literally think it was always like come on over.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then it was just the routine.
Speaker 2:I really like to eat lunch with others, with other people, yeah, well, and that really, whether they like it or not, whether they like it and that really I mean covid, I mean people used to eat in the lunchroom I know, and then we got away from that devastating yeah, and then it has kind of destroyed a lot of that stuff yeah, it's such a nice lunchroom culture yeah, but that was just so funny. It was like always just just walks right over yeah, I couldn't help it.
Speaker 1:Oh, my god, I know, and it's funny because it was like covid. We were like definitely supposed to social distance, but it's like we're all up in each other's stuff anyway all day, yeah, another another really funny thing.
Speaker 2:Uh, the last thing here was talking to our friends, like even my wife sarah, like knew I was pretty rigid like at work and stuff, Cause she would like always ask me about people and it'd be like I don't know, I don't, I don't talk to them.
Speaker 3:She'd be like what do you mean?
Speaker 2:Like don't you just like ask them questions? I'm like no kind of, I just kind of avoid them and, uh, when I got that position in Northbrook, yeah.
Speaker 2:And I was going to start there. I remember like, instead of her being like I mean, I'm sure she said these things to like have a good first day or whatever I distinctly remember her just being like she was like can you just try to be normal and talk to people? Like that was like her like pep talk to me and I was like, yeah, I'm going to like her like pep talk to me. And I was like, yeah, I'm gonna turn the page like this is gonna be the new job where I'm gonna start to like talk to people and like, oh, but it was so funny that she was just like can you like be normal?
Speaker 2:yeah just like try, just like ask a question, ask a follow-up question. Yeah, you know, like ask how somebody's doing, like just anything really to like be.
Speaker 1:But then you met me and I don't need a follow up question to just openly share things you don't care about? Tell every blade of grass no.
Speaker 2:I walk into the office and we're mid conversation. Like I still am putting my bag down, and it's. I just listened to this podcast. You will not believe what I just heard last night. Yeah.
Speaker 1:You will not believe what Mia told me about so-and-so yeah exactly what's going around Sit down for this one, the tea.
Speaker 2:Oh, I got some tea, John oh buckle up.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but I mean, that's what I needed.
Speaker 2:I needed that to loosen it up a little bit yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's like when I meet people that are boundaried at work, I'm like there's probably lessons I could take from this a bit. Definitely being boundaried with upper staff, that's a whole nother podcast that's a whole nother yeah, so, john, where can people find you?
Speaker 2:uh, nowhere really, but they can email me um, as always last name butts butz dot jonathan at gmailcom. Keep the questions coming, yeah what about you?
Speaker 1:totally kk psychotherapycom. If you have questions where you want to work with me and see if that's possible, anything like that, you can shoot me an inquiry over there as always, intro and outro music by Blanket Force thanks so much for joining us absolutely.
Speaker 2:This was great until next time until next time.
Speaker 1:Wise Until next time. Wise Mind Happy Hour podcast is for entertainment purposes only, not to be treated as medical advice. If you are struggling with your mental health, please seek medical attention or counseling.