The Wise Mind Happy Hour
Two therapists musing about the idea of an inner wise mind and how to connect with this psychic space in different contexts.
The Wise Mind Happy Hour
Unlocking the Wisdom of GRATITUDE
What is "gratitude?" We explore this concept (and more) on the latest episode of Wise Mind Happy Hour. Buckle your seatbelts...
- music by blanket forts -
All right, welcome to the Wise Mind Happy Hour podcast.
Speaker 2:Yes, welcome.
Speaker 1:We're here with your favorite therapist, Kelly and John for another episode. For those of you just joining, maybe this is your first episode, right? Wise Mind refers to this concept that we have these three states of mind, so emotion minds, rational mind and then the combination of the two, which is wise mind.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and you know I actually was saying this this week as we like officially launched our podcast and I was posting about it on Instagram. I remembered and of course, I knew this, but I like had to bring it to the forefront of my memory. The wise mind is actually, you know, a concept that marshall lenehan kind of took when she like studied buddhism and, and it basically is the same thing. It's like this state of being, so almost like we talk about it like a space that we get to within, which is similar, but kind of like a state of being where you make decisions that are conscious and like value, aligned and and wise.
Speaker 1:But when you say state, it's fleeting.
Speaker 3:Well it's. That's a good question, actually, because it's associated with enlightenment, which I don't know I this is where, like I would have to like, study Buddhism more officially, cause I don't, I imagine, is where I would have to study Buddhism more officially, because I imagine it is, of course, a transient state, but then the Buddha, I think, reached enlightenment, as if it's a place to reach and stay. So food for thought for the future.
Speaker 1:I have to move my mic. I feel like I can't see you.
Speaker 3:I know that's the thing. Sometimes with the mics it's like I'm like looking through the eye of a needle or something. Now I can see you better.
Speaker 1:It's good to see you.
Speaker 3:Good to see you. It's been a while. Yeah, it really has. We had our little holiday break.
Speaker 1:Hiatus.
Speaker 3:Hiatus, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah tell, little bit holiday was good. Uh saw family was with uh my side of the family for probably close to a week, so the boys got some time with their grandparents, which was really nice um, and they kind of we call it grandpa and grandma camp. So they were there with my parents for a few days and then sarah and I went up for the rest of the week, but it was really nice.
Speaker 2:Nice.
Speaker 1:It was a really nice time and there was snow in the beginning of the week, so that was cool for them to do some sledding.
Speaker 3:Yeah, in Milwaukee.
Speaker 1:It was yeah.
Speaker 3:Was there snow here?
Speaker 1:I think it came and then it went. Yeah, it was very like-.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I feel like on Christmas Day. Yeah, it wasn't Christmas.
Speaker 1:Day, because I think it had warmed up by then. I think this was like the weekend before, because we took the boys up there.
Speaker 3:Oh yes.
Speaker 1:And so they were able to, like do some stuff.
Speaker 3:Yeah, okay, oh, that's so nice, which is really nice. I remember when we were sharing an office and your parents came to visit for like a surprise visit for your kids, and you said Wes kept saying I feel like I'm dreaming.
Speaker 2:Yes, he's so happy to see his grandparents so happy.
Speaker 1:And for the longest time, and there's a little bit of this still, but he could my oldest son, when I say he Wes, could have worked for like the Milwaukee city like chamber of commerce or like tourism board, because he thought milwaukee was such a magical yeah, place like to go to and he always says it's like everything's so close, like you don't have to fight with traffic, and I think it also comes from like this experience of covet, where that was like a safe place to travel to during covet because like everything was like locked down and so something to look forward to is like going to milwaukee because my parents have a yard. Yeah, you know, we live in a condo, so it's like we have a back deck yeah and we go to parks but they have like a backyard and they have a
Speaker 3:sprinkler and they have. I mean it was. It's like magic to like do that in summer, so it's so funny that as a kid, just a little spigot twisting around water is like you do that for hours yeah hours, we'd be so excited, yeah so they would get, like you know, blow a pool and they would do that.
Speaker 3:But it was just so funny his yeah, I think I'm dreaming, or you know his association such a strong association with such a random city in the world, right well, my, actually my friend jesse, shouted to jesse because I know she listened to the first app. She let me know she's from like the bay area, like very cool area that she grew up in, like the Mill Valley area and she loves. Milwaukee. So I'd be like that's a pretty good.
Speaker 1:I do think it is even in the last 20 years.
Speaker 2:It's a gem, and that's what this episode is about.
Speaker 3:It's also about.
Speaker 1:Milwaukee. How wise is it as a city? How wise is Milwaukee? How was your holiday?
Speaker 3:Our holiday was good. My holiday was good I say our because Josh is our producer and he's uh was with me in our holiday. Um, yeah, it was really nice. We were with my family, because josh's family doesn't doesn't celebrate christmas, like primarily, a little bit here and there, like some festive things they'll do, um, but more so like Hanukkah yeah, both of our spouses.
Speaker 3:Yeah, hanukkah, yes yeah, yeah, both of them it's interesting yeah, I wonder, like I'd be curious if Sarah's it sounds like Sarah's kind of similar to Josh and like not super attached to it, but like does. Does the holidays, does the? Stuff yeah yeah, yeah, I would say neither of us are really that attached to like religiosity, like specifically, but like the cultural traditions and we're having a humanistic Rabbi Maria. So, yeah, like definitely some of it. We lit the menorah and we have a Christmas tree behind me still up. It's beautiful. I do love a Christmas tree.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally. And you know what's really especially like in chicago, because it is dense. It's nice to like walk around outside and not like in a creepy way, but like seeing people's trees in their windows.
Speaker 3:Yeah, oh, I love that. There's one like right across that almost looks like it's coming through the roof.
Speaker 1:It's so cool I can't see it, is it sorry? It's around, it's like yeah it's like right out of your island but it's very cool, especially like when it's quiet at night and you're like on a walk and it's dark. You know it gets dark so early yeah it's just so nice to see a tree lit up and, like no other lights, maybe on in the house yeah, totally.
Speaker 3:Or if you go down lake shore driving, you get all those apartments is so cool. Yeah, so we were with my family, with my nieces a lot, which was super fun.
Speaker 1:They're hilarious like ravaging presents I mean the place. Yeah, they were was there like a big like hit of a present this year yes, your sh.
Speaker 3:She got a hockey net and hockey sticks and stuff and she was over the moon I asked her like what she got back. I was like so what was your favorite christmas gift? She's just like hockey, you know, as kids are just like I'm gonna say one thing yeah um, but yeah, she was so into it. Um, yeah, and the other girls. I feel like they liked everything they got we got them a lot of frozen stuff. They love frozen, frozen. They'll say wait, say it again, frozen like they can't say the R.
Speaker 1:Do you know what my mind just went to when you said that I had no idea what you were talking about? I thought you like, like you were saying like frozen foods no frozen movie what kind of an idiot like I was thinking. I was like what do you mean frozen?
Speaker 3:You're like kind of like the frozen goods side yeah like you know, Trader.
Speaker 1:Joe's has really good frozen stuff. Okay, so that's still a thing frozen.
Speaker 3:Oh, big time.
Speaker 1:I mean talk about.
Speaker 3:I wish I invented that property, I mean.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, you know what I took my kids to? That made me just think of the week of new year's was mufasa.
Speaker 3:Oh yes, because they're doing the like lion king you know disney thing, it was really good, you saw it yeah, I took them to it, but it was like a lie.
Speaker 1:It's a, it's a live action kind of it's not live. What am I saying? It's like computer, but it looks real. It's not like it's not like Jeff Goldblum. Jeff Goldblum is Wait, we should cast it. Who do you think would be?
Speaker 3:Mufasa.
Speaker 1:Yeah, who would be a good Mufasa? God, I always want to go like Idris Elba or something.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I forget who did the voice originally.
Speaker 1:Well, wasn't it James Earl?
Speaker 3:Jones, was it yeah?
Speaker 1:Because the movie was dedicated to James Earl.
Speaker 3:Jones.
Speaker 1:Yes, okay, jones, because the movie was dedicated to james earl jones and I believe I was thinking it was him. I believe he passed away um. But what I mean by live is it's not. It's not like animation, it's literally looks like these real animals, like talking and stuff oh, oh, oh yeah, the jungle book movie they came out with you right yeah yeah
Speaker 3:they look it's like hyper realism kind of yeah and what's confusing about you know what.
Speaker 1:So I took my boys to it and it was like a matinee and there's two other people in the theater, and thank goodness for that, because the first 20 minutes of it I'm explaining to them like who is who in the movie, because you see this small little like lion come out and they're like, oh, simba. And I'm like, okay, so that's not simba, because simba's actually grown up in this movie. Oh he is. So this is simba's, this is simba's cub who then? Who's then told the story?
Speaker 1:yeah, of mufasa so then they go into story mode and they're like wait, who is that? Oh, that's young mufasa. And they're like no, no, no. And then, like shane, my youngest one's, like that's simba. And I'm like that's not simba, he's like trust me so it took me it like literally took 20 minutes to be like where are we in this? Because it's like they're used to seeing simba be the little one and everything like that anyway.
Speaker 3:Anyway, I went off on a tangent there. Wait Mufasa. I thought Mufasa would almost be like a prequel, so Simba wouldn't be even on the horizon.
Speaker 1:So the way the movie is set up, simba is grown up has a child and is telling him about Mufasa. I don't want to give anything away, but then Simba leaves, then rafiki is like babysitting, basically cubsitting, and rafiki is telling simba the story of mufasa and how mufasa came to be wow, okay, that's cool.
Speaker 3:I like that device.
Speaker 1:But also, I do too, but also confusing to a seven and nine, confusing to a seven and a nine year old. I mean confusing to a 35 year old To a 42 year old. It was hard for me to and then in the movie, one of the characters is named Taka and my oldest son kept calling him Tucker.
Speaker 3:He just like made her name like a white person Like everybody it's like everybody in the movie.
Speaker 1:It's Mufasa, it's Simba and.
Speaker 3:Tucker. You know Tucker Tucker, it's like his name's not.
Speaker 1:Tucker and he's like no, he's saying Tucker. I love how, like his shirt, I'm like tearing up thinking about it because, like it's just so, am I arguing about this, like his name's not Tucker. I love that like the African name Tucker like anyway so. Frozen's big. So that was a long way around to say Frozen is still big.
Speaker 3:Yes, frozen is still big. So, yeah, they're super into it and my littlest niece will just like break into song.
Speaker 1:Does she have one of those microphones that plays the?
Speaker 2:Frozen music yeah, those are sweet. Yes, which is so cool.
Speaker 3:Yeah, the littlest one, one like she's still figuring out kind of her voice and everything, so it's really cute, yeah, I don't know why I said it's sweet.
Speaker 1:It's sweet when it's not your kids that have that. It's really cool when it's like somebody else's kid.
Speaker 3:Yeah you have to go home with that and have it around. Yeah, totally like hide. Hide the batteries, yeah, hide the microphone yeah, just turn it off but I do feel sometimes like gifts like that they wear out in like two weeks. I remember when we would get those yeah it would be like, man, this thing, it's dead already and then we, like never, would replace it.
Speaker 1:It was just gone. I'm sure my parents were like it's dead already. Some stuff's dead on arrival and then some stuff lasts. I think you're right. I'm even thinking about some of the things recently that my boys got for either their birthday or Christmas and yeah, it's intense, but then there's a sharp drop off of them playing with it.
Speaker 3:Yeah yeah, I know, I think Brittany had some. My sister-in-law had some like heuristic for like gift giving for the girls. It was like something to wear, something to read something there's a rhyme to it, but it's like four things something I want and something oh yes, something, you want something, you need something to wear and something I need. Oh yes, something, you want something, you need something to wear and something to read Way to go.
Speaker 2:Josh, yeah good job.
Speaker 1:Good memory on that. Something to read, yes, and something they need, yeah, something they want something. They need something to wear and something to read that's cute.
Speaker 3:Which we. She didn't tell us that until Christmas Day, so we didn't follow that. For the gifts we got them all frozen stuff.
Speaker 1:We got them all once. I was suffering so much too, over like are they equal?
Speaker 3:Because they won't know, or they will, if they don't perceive their allotment as equal to the other girls. Yeah, that's tough.
Speaker 1:And they have no sense not them, but just children of cost. So it's like somebody could get something that's like two things that are really expensive and then. But if the other one's opening up 20 things from the dollar store, they got way more presence. How dare you? You know that type of thing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like Saoirse kept being, like Niamh has another one but Saoirse got the expensive like hockey and set up, but I think she wasn't totally you know, just the experience of like opening something and I. It's like I'm bad, because when I see her like that, I just want to be like oh, I'll find something to give you to open up, or whatever.
Speaker 3:Like I I have a hard time, like being like oh, let her sit with that. I just want to like make her feel better. I'm like oh, that's like something I gotta work on when I'm hopefully a parent one day.
Speaker 1:Like uh, when you say let her sit, is that like the therapist in you coming?
Speaker 3:yeah, let her sit with that like let her don't fix it for her yeah feeling and like you, can love her in it and take care of her in it but not try to like assuage it and like I'm like, oh man, I'm okay with like this came up over the trip, like disciplining a little bit, like she really wanted to play really intense aggressive hockey with josh and I while the little ones are in the middle of the two nets.
Speaker 3:I'm like you can't swing the hockey stick right the girls and she was so upset with me and I just had to be like no yeah, you know kind of take the stick yeah which I can do. I feel bad about it. And then, of course, she's over in the corner and I'm like trying to reason with her, I'm like sirisha I don't want anyone to get hurt and she's just like I hate you.
Speaker 1:Now it's over. No, that's a tough. Uh, that is tough the equalness.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like that is as yeah. Yeah, that urge comes on strong to to like want to fix it and make it like even for them. And it's hard too, because with my two boys I mean one like it's just never going to be even, but also like their ages are different. So it's like the younger one wants to do what the older one is doing so.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's a lot of urge to just kind of like shut it down and be like yeah, no, like they should get the same things, like they should always be getting the same things.
Speaker 2:That's like maybe like your knee jerk.
Speaker 1:Yeah, your knee jerk reaction and it's like that doesn't make any sense, like when you step back from it, because they're one, they're two different people, they're two different ages, they're two. You're just from my experience and it's like that's hard because I have the urge to be like if they're getting this, then what is he gonna get?
Speaker 1:and yeah, yeah birthdays too yeah having kids in this day and age, when one of them has a birthday. This is just my experience, I don't know. Maybe this is a family dynamic thing or something. The other one typically gets something to ease the blow.
Speaker 3:Totally, oh, totally. This is a new thing, because I don't remember that being the case for me.
Speaker 1:I don't believe that that ever happened when.
Speaker 3:I was growing up Right. There was no easing of the blow there, I know, but I have the urge right like there was no easing, yeah, of the blow, of the blow.
Speaker 1:I know which I'm not, I'm not mad about, but I just I that was a little bit like, so that's not just my family system.
Speaker 3:Okay, I mean I. When we'll be driving to cleveland for one of their birthdays, I'll usually like, right before we leave me in a panic of like what the hell am I gonna give the other two? You know, because it's like they're gonna be devastated when they see one open up something they love and my niece is typically. If they open one and they like it and the one's like, can I see it?
Speaker 1:they're like no but you, but you didn't grow up like that no okay god.
Speaker 3:No, we didn't get gifts. I don't think I don't think so either I have no recollection of getting gifts on my brother's birthdays but, you know what it was a gift for you to be there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally I bet to witness your brother's birthday.
Speaker 3:Yeah yeah, your brother's the gift, like, like I bet my little brother at times would get a gift because I'm sure he would like pitch a fit. When he was little he was the funniest little kid and he loved stuff stuff he loved shoes, he loved he's a stuff guy oh yeah, when he was little. He's less like that now, but he when he was little, he really like. Every store, every everywhere he went in was like I must have he's gonna.
Speaker 1:The money would just burn a hole right in his pocket and he was really, really cute. I think he was very hard and he was persuasive oh man, anyway, that was like a new kind of I mean, it's not new anymore because, like you know, my kids are nine and seven but, it was like a new thing. As I became a parent.
Speaker 2:I was like oh, this is where it's like gone to now we're right.
Speaker 1:Isn't that? I mean, isn't that the another celebration of their life? It's like I know, like we can't just like sit with a presence and I will wait for my birthday. Yeah, like no, you get a little something, which is a nice sentiment. I don't want people out there to think I'm a grinch about it.
Speaker 3:It was just like I didn't realize that's where it had trended you're also not again not teaching someone to sit with, like, can you just allow someone else to be center stage and feel like the joy? Or pain of that experience. Totally.
Speaker 1:So it's hard for me to think that my little kids are going to be able to do that.
Speaker 3:But I know I so often have I feel like in in my work, like clients I've met with over the years, like often really a goal for them is like I want to be able to sincerely like be happy for someone else or or celebrate someone else. You know, to really be able to not compare is really what it is, and I think, be happy for the other person's successes, or like successes or even just like good fortune, their birthday their wedding their whatever you know whether you even consider it success.
Speaker 3:And I feel so much for people in that moment where it's like because I've had those moments where it's like, especially if you're going through like a really hard struggle and then someone in that area has like really great news or something, I've had moments where I'm like I I cannot get there to happiness for this person and then I'll feel so much shame but also like anger and, like you know, it's like how do I really feel happy for someone? And yeah, I feel for people who are like. I want to feel that I want to sincerely celebrate the people around me and I like really struggle to not compare myself.
Speaker 1:Is there a level where you are happy for them? You're just, you are not just feeling it in an authentic way, or yeah? Cause like, logically, you're, you're happy for that person, right, but you want the emotional experience to match it I think.
Speaker 3:I think that's where the wise mind comes in. Right, it's probably like the wise mind is happy for them. There is a like a deeper self. That, because it's even your awareness of that idea, is a signal of that. But I think it's buried under like a protective emotional mind.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:That's like this is bad for us, this is bad for us, which it's not.
Speaker 1:No, that kind of, as we were talking before, we started recording the idea of gratitude that makes me think of gratitude which was maybe a loose topic we were going to talk about, but I had this experience. Unless you want to continue, on that story over the holidays. I have a really good friend, quinn. Shout out Quinn.
Speaker 3:Shout out, Quinn.
Speaker 1:I know he's not listening to this, but he'll maybe tell me he's listening to it.
Speaker 1:But he might if I tell him his name is dropped, but went to college with him and, uh, just a very, very dear best friend of mine, and around October or so he reached out. He wanted to come to Chicago and visit and he has twins and a daughter, so he's got three kids. You know he's very busy and he was scheduled to come down. We were going to go out to dinner his wife, myself, my wife and it just didn't work out, um, unfortunately, and he was really bummed about it. And then, around thanksgiving, he said he was going to be in chicago so he wanted to see me and he was like really adamant about seeing me and which is fine, like that, that's great, it's just it's I mean it's fine. Um, it just isn't like his modus operandi to be like we gotta get together, we gotta get together is fine, like that, that's great, it's just, it's fine, I mean it's fine.
Speaker 2:Um, it just isn't like his modus operandi to be like we got to get together.
Speaker 1:We got to get together. You know, like if it works, it works. Yeah, um, and the day we were going to see each other, he was going to be downtown with his kids. They were. I didn't have my phone on me because I had family down and then it just didn't work out. Like late in the night I was like I didn't have my phone on me, I didn't see it. I'm sorry. I know you wanted to stop by and say hello, but it's just something about it felt like a little bit like urgent.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And it was really nice, because it's nice to feel like your friends want to see you.
Speaker 3:You know, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:He lives in Racine, wisconsin, which for people who don't know that's like in between Chicago and Milwaukee. So I was going to be in Milwaukee for the holiday and my wife was like yeah, maybe like we could stop at Quinn's on the way home. I was like yeah, like great idea, let's do that. But also like where is this coming?
Speaker 3:I don't know it was just kind of like yeah, I got to see Quinn, so I'm suddenly on the edge of my seat.
Speaker 2:So what is happening in this story?
Speaker 1:So we stop and see him, and he was like you know, I wanted you to stop down because I have this gift for you. I was like, oh, I was like okay, and I know you're on the edge of your seat because you're going to laugh when you hear what the gift is but, it's truly a meaningful gift, but he said he was like you know, for the past, past 20 years, and this is a tradition that I just started to do with my three best friends from college I send them a book every year?
Speaker 1:oh, that's nice, and so for the last 20 years I've sent them a book every year, and it's usually just a book in the last year that I've read that I felt is meaningful to me there's no like criterion for it whether he's read them or not. I don't. We don't have a book club or anything I don't even ask them about it. He could be using them to prop up every dresser in his house like he's like it's great like everything's level.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I think the first year I sent him one, he was like I think he texted me. Uh, what did he say? Thanks for sending me the book. I don't think it fits in my dvd player or something like something like that.
Speaker 1:so he was like know, you sent me this book for 20 years. And he was like I feel like, as a gesture of gratitude, I bought you this. So he gives me this box and I open it up and it's a pair of ridiculously awesome Nike shoes that are limited edition, with a Wu-Tang Clan W on the side that were like released and, obviously, people we haven't talked about Wu-Tang yet, which I can't believe in the wise mind but I'm a huge fan.
Speaker 3:I don't know a lot about them.
Speaker 1:Maybe that's a huge fan of them Like growing up like had a poster of them in college like just huge fan, and he was like I saw this article come by and it said they were gonna.
Speaker 1:they only released a certain number of these shoes and he really went for it and was like I got to get these for john, like I have to get these for john, that's so nice so all of those visits, he wanted to give me these shoes he was making such an effort to give definitely thought he was gonna tell you I had cancer is that where the story was going?
Speaker 3:of course, that's the road shock blot of my mind. Yeah, I'm like definitely cancer he's, and then you're about to tell me you're grateful for him and he's no longer with us, like um no, that's my, this was the, this was the, the the expression of gratitude.
Speaker 1:That's great.
Speaker 3:I mean, the shoes are amazing, like they're amazing shoes that is what's beautiful about gifts and I think, just coming out of like christmas, it's like just such like a social pressure to get them that sometimes they do lose. That like, oh wow, I was just like thinking of you yeah and this screams you and yeah, that's so nice I said a thing, as you say, that I'm like trying to think if I've had an experience like that. I'm sure I have, I just can't think of one, or maybe I haven't.
Speaker 1:And I see him maybe once a year, you know like twice a year, yeah, and it. I don't know why I just said that, but I feel like that also kind of flavors the story a little bit, maybe.
Speaker 2:Maybe it doesn't.
Speaker 1:I don't know why. I just said that.
Speaker 3:It just kind of came to mind. Well, it's funny, like with gratitude, it's so. I do feel very mixed on it as a therapist, as a person, as a sometimes emotion-minded sufferer at times, like sometimes, sometimes, like the recommendation to be grateful is like infuriating. You know, when you're like suffering and you're just like are you kidding me? Like I, this is real, I'm in pain. Like no, I don't want to like think about what I'm grateful for right now, which I get.
Speaker 1:Are you? Can I pause? Yeah, are you saying when, like other people, are like prescribing it to you and saying you should be grateful?
Speaker 3:Think about the bright side.
Speaker 3:Think about yeah, like, and it's like it doesn't mean gratitude's like bullshit, I think it's like it's almost like a delicate topic and it has to be like used in the right space, Cause, like I remember trying it, it was pretty powerful within like a couple of days of practicing gratitude, Like by at the end of the night, if you remember three things you like sincerely appreciated in the day. So it has to be something authentic. It has to be like you actually felt appreciation for this thing. This person held the door open for you, whatever, someone was gracious when you were late or something.
Speaker 3:If you remind yourself of that and spend a moment like feeling that appreciation or like whatever in the MDR you might say, like enjoying that feeling in your body and feeling like almost instantly, I would start to see things in a more optimistic way. I remember that like I would expect hopeful things and I didn't keep it up, sadly. But I remember being kind of floored by how like quickly, I was like, oh wow, this really like changes the neurons a bit here. Like I'm looking for what's positive, what's like enjoyable, what's compassionate, like between the people I'm around.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 3:Well, because of that automatic negativity bias, we naturally like file the positive to the back of the mind, so to remember it and name it and then feel consciously the feeling again. It's like reinforcement of the brain Cause, that thing of like if you park your car and walk in a building and you find $50 on your way in and then the next day you lose $50 on your way in, and then the next day you lose $50 on your way in, you'll remember the loss like three times greater, almost three times greater than really the yeah.
Speaker 3:It's like the brain doesn't have to do any work to remember. Like painful things and like positive things. It's just like less adaptive to hang onto them in your mind. It's just like less adaptive to hang on to them in your mind. Less adaptive for survival but not obviously for vitality and like feeling really good. It's just like not dying.
Speaker 1:Got it. Can I move my mic and cough? I've been holding it.
Speaker 3:Okay, hold on a second, sorry, sorry, yeah, it's winter, we're all coughing and we don't have COVID.
Speaker 1:Okay, I'm back.
Speaker 3:Yeah, even better. I'm really grateful that you stood up for yourself and you decided to do that.
Speaker 1:Decided to get that tickle out of my throat.
Speaker 3:But what do you think about gratitude? I mean, I have a million thoughts about it. I'm curious.
Speaker 1:I think there's ebbs and flows to it for me.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:There are times in my life where I feel like it's been really hard to generate, like true feelings of like I'm grateful for the situation I'm in, or I'm grateful for this thing. I think though, um, I feel like maybe age is also playing a role in it.
Speaker 1:As I'm getting older, maybe I'm able to see things more clearly, and I also have a set of aging grandparents that I recently just saw over the holidays, which is great. I don't know, my perspective has maybe shifted and I'm able to see, maybe, what I have, not what I'm trying to attain. Yeah, I don't know, my perspective has maybe shifted and I'm able to see maybe what I have, not what I'm trying to attain.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's hard. Though it is a hard practice, I do think it can be get itself. Is that the way to say it? I don't. Yeah, I think the more you engage with it. Yeah.
Speaker 1:It can have a little bit of a snowball effect, definitely, and I think it does impact the systems around you. I know for a fact that when I am more grateful towards sarah or toward like, I feel like I hear it more from them as well. Not that you're doing it. I do think there is like almost an infectious quality to it I think not all the time.
Speaker 3:I think people do recognize it more yeah, I, I think it genuinely is completely contagious and like there is research even on like, like medical illnesses, like easing, when people like keep a gratitude journal, like there, there is some powerful stuff out there. I remember this I was listening to that goop podcast a long time ago and there was like a is that the gwyneth Paltrow one? I actually did really like the podcast, especially early on.
Speaker 1:Does she still do that?
Speaker 3:She doesn't do every one. I also have mixed feelings on her. I feel like we could do a whole episode on that business.
Speaker 1:On what business? The Goop business, oh, the Goop business.
Speaker 3:About women. It's so interesting, I'm all over the map on it, but um this episode, it was actually her therapist that like coined that phrase, conscious uncoupling that she, like she and wendy chris martin and her broke up, they call it consciously uncoupling uncoupling, which is like, which is what a divorce?
Speaker 1:the?
Speaker 3:lack of self-awareness, like in putting that out was crazy, but um like the idea that you think you're like doing breaking up better because you're like a celebrity is kind of interesting. But well, what?
Speaker 1:is it? It's like I'm sorry, I'm not trying to take you on consciously separating from each other I mean they should have just said like separating, you know what I mean?
Speaker 3:it's like use're consciously separating from each other. I mean they should have just said like separating.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:It's like use a less weird word as opposed to what Unconsciously separating, divorcing?
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because those people are unconscious.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because those people are stupid and you know, just like thoughtless I mean Chris.
Speaker 1:Martin does write a good. I mean, I'm assuming he writes Coldplay songs yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, she talks about that on one of the episodes. There's some real bangers.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally and actually, I think she has a lot of interesting stuff to say.
Speaker 3:I do like a lot of things about her.
Speaker 1:I'm not going to be ashamed that I like Coldplay songs.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm looking at Josh because Josh has great musical taste. I like Coldplay. I will say I got. Okay, I don't listen to any of their albums per se, but they got some great songs.
Speaker 2:I'll put it that way.
Speaker 1:I mean, their first album was pretty amazing and that came out when I was like a fresh. No, it was the one with yellow on it. Oh, yeah that's it, parachute, it, parachute. Yeah, that came out when I was like a freshman or a sophomore in college, so that was right in the wheelhouse of like. Yeah, it was everywhere um, wait what was it? We were talking about goop. How did we, oh, oh?
Speaker 3:so she had her therapist who, like, coined that term on and he apparently was diagnosed himself with I think it was prostate cancer or testicular. I think it was testicular cancer, because it was like stage four. Oh, wow.
Speaker 3:And he didn't undergo traditional. I mean, this is his word, because he is like an MD, okay, I believe, but he, I think his name's Habib Sadeghi or I'm reversing the first letters of the two names, but I think it's Habib Sadeghi but he said he did a gratitude practice every day, religiously, and the tumors shrunk. And that's what he does, all this holistic medicine in his medical practice. I thought it was interesting medicine in his medical practice.
Speaker 1:I thought it was interesting. Um, and you know, maybe you don't remember, he solely attributed it to the gratitude well, he didn't do the treatment recommended okay I mean, maybe it wasn't stage and he was taking I might be goofing up this no, no, no.
Speaker 3:He was taking care of his body in other ways, though yeah, but I think like you actually just made this up on the spot, really I'm just yeah, but I think it's like talking about the mind body connection is ridiculous, because it's like obviously they're insanely connected. If you think a sad thought, you start crying. It's like that's a physical response. It's like obviously the energy in the body, the thoughts, completely and totally directly affect that.
Speaker 3:So it's like obviously gratitude and like if you genuinely feel warmth in a feeling like that it can like have that ease in the body, but it's hard because it's like it can be at times. It's like gratitude, it's like can just feel so out of reach.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:You know like when I'm really scared about something I mean, gratitude to me seems like ridiculous, it seems like something a moron would do Like in my mind, in my emotion. Yeah, the emotion, mind you know, like I always have so much Well.
Speaker 1:I think my emotion mind tells me, well, who you know, like I always have so much. Well, I think my emotion mind tells me, well, who gives a shit? Yeah, like, almost like, okay, great, like. You can name 10 things that it doesn't mean I'm not suffering right now, this is still hell.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's what my emotion.
Speaker 1:I just completely disregards it. Yeah, totally. You know so maybe I'm embodying the practice wrong, or maybe it's just exposing your mind to other thoughts than the ones you're currently stewing on. Yeah, in those moments of what you're speaking, to my mind, will just completely discount them and be like, well, that's great, you can name those things, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and there's even a question too of like this might sound weird, but like how positive is it supposed to be?
Speaker 1:because, like yeah, that's a good point, if you think about like a buddhist lens.
Speaker 3:I think gratitude and acceptance would almost be one and the same. It would be like even gratitude for your pain and your suffering, and like moving toward it and putting your arms around it, like as like what could it teach me? What could it teach me? Like, I don't know anything about this.
Speaker 3:Even if it hurts, I don't know if it's good or bad you know, it's probably my teacher in some way and I like gratitude in that way, but I almost think the word acceptance probably like, maybe better captures that you know, like, but maybe gratitude's even more emphatic, right, it's like, don't just accept, like put, put your arms around. I feel like an act. What's his face talks about that the main guy was.
Speaker 1:Stephen Hayes.
Speaker 3:Stephen Hayes, Like not like wrapping your arms around the reality as if you chose it, and that practice, even if it's like really hard, you know, that I think is an interesting kind of kind of radical.
Speaker 1:What is the feeling of gratitude?
Speaker 3:Well, that's a good question, Like the feeling of like as we're talking about it.
Speaker 1:Is that? What does that feel like? I think it's a feeling of love.
Speaker 3:I really do.
Speaker 1:That's what it feels like. It feels like love, it's, warmth, it's empathy.
Speaker 2:It's yeah Joy, but not really.
Speaker 3:I think, I think it to me the feeling is like resembles love the most like this, like, and yeah, probably physically warmth. Do you ever get in these?
Speaker 1:conversations and then feel like, as a therapist, you're like I don't. Sometimes I don't even know what an emotion is. Like yeah, totally Like I feel like I'm having that moment right now where, like, if, if some, if I was in a group right now and somebody was like John, like what is, I would be like I should at least know what emotions are as a therapist.
Speaker 3:And if somebody in this moment, was asking me like what is gratitude? I don't know if I'd be able to really say I'm trying to like, I don't know. My mind just went blank as we were talking about this. Like what is it? Yeah, because it's like when I genuinely feel appreciative of something.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like warmth it's warmth yeah doesn't it feel?
Speaker 3:I feel like yeah yeah it's like a softening and like a warmth almost, yeah, like it washes over you yeah, like this, like cozy blanket I don't know, josh, any takes on this.
Speaker 1:I don't know being grateful, yeah because we language it. I don't you're saying everything that I was thinking. Yeah. Because we say it, I feel grateful or I'm grateful.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Everybody knows what that means.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:What does it feel like though?
Speaker 3:Yeah, what does it actually feel like? Because, yeah, there's probably times you say that and it's a little more intellectual and you might not be as like tuned in to the feeling, and then other times where you're just like hit with like that was so nice that that person did that and you, it's like there almost is like a like a weird, yeah, like a melting, like a oh yeah nice, that person did that I think.
Speaker 3:Sometimes, when I feel it, it is overwhelming too yes, yeah and like I get tear, I get glassy eyed yeah, yeah, that's why I think it feels a lot like love yeah like an exchange right of love. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Even us right now, we're feeling it.
Speaker 1:I'm like I'm lost yeah, well, that's totally fine I it is interesting when you talk about something and then you just are talking about it and you're like, yeah, maybe I don't, I have a grip on this or know what it is really.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and like then I think to the question cause, like I love like setting goals, like I'm into the manifesting, you know I I really have like a kind of a spiritual belief in that, for sure, and sometimes it's hard to negotiate that with things like gratitude, yeah, you know, and obviously like there's a dialectic there, right, like opposites that need to coexist. But sometimes it's hard because it's like I can get so excited about the future and like really like feel, feel like joy in the present about it, but then sometimes be like wait is this bad? I'm like always thinking about what's next.
Speaker 1:So is gratitude. In that lens a practice that can be past, present and future. Certainly past and present.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think it might be hard, can we be?
Speaker 1:grateful about? Yeah. Can we be grateful about the possibility? Yeah, so that would be a difference there.
Speaker 3:I kind of feel like it's hard to like unless you appreciate.
Speaker 1:Even as I said that, though, would the gratitude of the past still a useful process? I think, though, take us out of the possible here and now benefits of doing it into like, but what's remember when we were talking at the beginning? Maybe we weren't recording the being right Like the being right, like the being in this moment. What am I grateful for in this moment? Yeah, is that maybe more, not that it's not powerful in the past, but is it?
Speaker 3:that's a good question, because it's like if you're grateful we're really just rubbing this to like a nub.
Speaker 4:We're really grinding this one out you could be in the present moment grateful for a memory for a memory or grateful in the present moment like oh, I'm thinking about this future thing I'm looking forward to yeah, it's giving you a present feeling of like lightness and aliveness and yeah, vibrancy yeah vibrancy, totally vibrancy.
Speaker 3:So it's all kind of yeah, yeah, I think it's like the presence is maybe engaging with the feeling. But when you do that I mean especially because I do EMDR work now and I'm in EMDR therapy a lot of times, when you connect deeply and presently to your body, a memory pops up of where else you felt that.
Speaker 3:So obviously they're so interconnected. But I think a healthy, helpful, invigorating practice is engaging with the present felt sense and if you stray from it, coming back to it, you know, like keeping one eye over there. That's where a lot of like ease and peace is. Yeah. So then it's like where does the future come in, Especially if, like, it feels good.
Speaker 1:We're getting deep here. I love I know it's like and I'm about to see with that a little bit, which I like yeah, yeah, well, same.
Speaker 3:Because I'm like, I just love thinking about the future and then sometimes I'll feel sad, like, oh, you're missing it, like you're missing that, like, even though you're like because we're in the process of buying a new car is what you told?
Speaker 2:me.
Speaker 3:We had to put our car to rest so we're going to go tomorrow and look at some more we really want to get another rav um, so we're in the process of that.
Speaker 1:Why are they out of teslas or?
Speaker 3:yeah, I know the bugattis, they're out. Yeah, josh's cousin made that joke, is it right? Were you guys down at the bugatti dealership? We were like no.
Speaker 1:It's low-hanging fruit, it's an easy joke to make?
Speaker 3:Yeah, totally. But like I'm so excited about that, like you know that mindset of like my life's going to really happen when I got this new car and it's like not true at all.
Speaker 1:I mean it's going to smell better, Totally.
Speaker 3:And I'm going to take a lot of joy in driving it and riding in it.
Speaker 1:I'd be very grateful for that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, definitely, Especially because my car is pretty old. But I think it's like then I know myself I'll just be on to the next, like what's the next thing? I'm going to optimize, you know, and it's like I don't love that, but I do. A part of me does love that.
Speaker 1:I'm really maybe that's where the question lies is does the future when you said optimization does the future take us out of what we have in the present? So it we can be grateful for the, the next thing almost like, or the possibility of the next thing, but does that take us out of what we are we are currently in? I hate saying have, because it's not like a consumer thing, but yeah kind of yeah, you know definitely I don't know yeah yeah, what gratitude.
Speaker 1:Let's make it a little lighter maybe what gratitude practices do you not like? Because remember the beginning or before we started recording, we were like, yeah, some of the things are just like no, not not that it's bad for anybody right, maybe just not authentic to us yeah, yeah, maybe it's like I.
Speaker 3:I probably really don't like it. If someone is or I, I should say me, me being someone and in a really sincere like pain about something and their help to you would be to try to think about the positive yeah, that's tough you know like there's so much that's great going on right now. It's like I when people say that to me and I'm in, especially if I'm in a lot of pain or worry about something I feel like I'm living on another planet yeah than them, and I'm just like I can't with this, josh knows this.
Speaker 3:And it's. It takes me a while to like slow down and realize, like I almost I have to deal with the pain first.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I think maybe that's always the case for me. I think it's like can't do that. Have to really honor like. You have every right to be in pain. Let's flesh it out yeah, let's understand it. What's the worry doing? You know yeah and sometimes, like josh will do this really well like remind me of like all this laundry list of like different things I've found to just worry insanely about yeah and I'm like you're right. I'm just like straight up addicted to any kind of worry that I can find and it helps me, like it takes me out of myself where he's like.
Speaker 3:Well, last week you were worried about this, like you thought you had cancer of this kind.
Speaker 3:The other week now you think it's this one yeah and now you think this is wrong with your friend and this person's really mad at you and this issue at work's never going to get resolved and this thing with the car is always going to be bad and I'm like, oh my god, like I'm addicted to worrying. I said that to him this week. I was like I'm addicted to worrying, like, hello, my name is callie, I'm addicted to worry. It's like apparently my favorite thing because I find it everywhere I go.
Speaker 3:And I I actually talked about that in therapy a little bit this week before we did the emdr like and I think like people- in my family would say this like a lot of my family members are also warriors yeah and it's a very like common language because, like I noticed, like josh's family is kind of more addicted a little bit to the positive, which is such a nice change. It's so interesting um.
Speaker 1:What's the function of your worry? Why is it? How's it serving?
Speaker 3:I mean not that we're doing therapy, right yeah yeah, we talked about this like you're addicted to it. You know, sometimes I go way in with this.
Speaker 1:It's funny because my therapist is like we went way past you know, is it like that you're preparing yourself for like the worst case?
Speaker 3:I actually think I'll. I'll even go past that, because I've I've done like so many of these like personal, like meditations on things like this. You know that are like on these manifestation programs or whatever, or with my old therapist or whatever, and I remember like it was like almost looking at the total opposite, like instead of you actually being worried that things are going to go poorly, you might be afraid of the opposite. So you're actually clinging to the worry. That's why you're worrying, because there's a part of you that doesn't want the peace or the next level or the thing. And for some reason, I remember the first time I heard that it really resonated. I was like, oh, that's so true. Like when I was dating and before I met Josh, and like really like, oh, my God, I just want to meet my person. Like this is so hard.
Speaker 3:And like like a lot of worry that I was never going to meet them. And then, like looking a bit at the opposite, like is any part of you resisting meeting them and what that experience might be like? And I talked about it a ton with my last therapist and it was like fears of being engulfed you know, and like having to not be myself. And it was like I remember right when she said you, you know like I'll get that like boom feeling in my this like center of my bones, of like that's it, that's totally it.
Speaker 3:Like so it kept you more restricted yeah, and if that felt safer than expanding and being like worrying about it and seeing the negative. It's like it keeps you out of the trap of something and you have to look at and like. Like if I were doing mdr at the time I'm sure I would look at like where before have you felt trapped?
Speaker 3:or engulfed and you know, like kind of healing that experience, reprocessing that a little bit but it helped me a lot to think of that like, oh wow, and you basically have to like, help yourself see like you're an adult, like if you were engulfed you'd have choices you'd have agency. You'd be able to step out of that yeah but yeah, it's like. Yeah, it's my sorry, I didn't like definitely didn't bring it to a light place.
Speaker 1:I already forgot we were gonna take it to a light place. Oh, what we were.
Speaker 3:What gratitude I don't like. But, yeah, I do have to go to the pain first, but also like I'm addicted to the pain, so it's like which part of me is saying that. And I lately I again said this is Josh. I was like I'm over at this point. This many years of therapy, this much self-reflection, I'm quitting. Worry, cold turkey.
Speaker 1:I said this much self-reflection, I'm quitting worry cold turkey.
Speaker 3:I said that to him last week. I was like, was that your intention? And honestly I've done, okay, resolution where I really am, like when I wander over there. I'm like slapping my wrists like we're done with this bs, like tough, tough love like what if something great happens here? Or what if something neutral happens here like this? This need for it to be negative yeah is just killing you.
Speaker 3:I said to him I was like worry is the disease, worry is the disease. It really feels like and it it felt empowering, like to say that this week maybe next week it wouldn't feel that way, but like I've gotta set it down and yeah maybe be grateful. Maybe like slow down and look at like is anything on fire in this moment? Yeah and usually when I look around, it's like I feel like things are going so well in my life right now.
Speaker 3:I mean everything almost yeah it's like I find something to just worry about, to the point where I can't sleep yeah and it's like you're doing this. It's you. The call is coming from inside the house, but I don't feel like you're such a worrier.
Speaker 1:The call is coming from inside the house, did we? Just get a scream reference. That's incredible. That is incredible and that movie is incredible. That movie is incredible. I love those movies. The call for worry is incredible. That movie is incredible. I love those movies. The call for worry is coming Totally. I'm going to be repeating that for days.
Speaker 3:Thank you for saying that that was an amazing call. Right there, josh has heard this admonition.
Speaker 1:No, I'm a worrier, for sure.
Speaker 3:You are. Where do your worries like?
Speaker 1:I mean, yeah, latching on to definitely like catastrophic type of scenarios Like I mean I get really worried about, and what honestly almost makes me paralyzed is, like my kids health.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like that is like a real, like just difficult place for me to be, and I'm lucky and grateful that I have healthy kids. Yeah, um, and kids get sick, you know, and and they have scary moments and I've had instances where I've had kids in the hospital for a few days and it, it, it is like I am immobilized because I the thought I can't even think it like the thoughts that I'm having, they're so like what would this be, what? What could this be? What would happen? Um, so that gets ramped up very quickly when they start to like come down with something like their health.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And that's just such a different level of worry than my own health or anybody else in my life, like when you like that is a sure like divide of it's like, ok, you worry about people in your life, absolutely, you care about them, you love them. When it's your child, in this scenario, in this context with their health, it is such a different level, I don't even know how to describe it. When it's your child, like I've, that's just something I couldn't, and I'm sure my parents have said that to me many times when I was a kid and just was kind of like, yeah, sure you worry and you're like that's what parents do. And then when you're in it, it's such a clear example of, oh, this is what they were talking about, yeah, like you cannot have any other thought, right, now than just like what's going to happen to my children.
Speaker 3:Oh God, I already worry so much about my own health.
Speaker 1:We're just going dark. We're going dark here. Yeah, Josh's health I became obsessed.
Speaker 3:Did I mention this on the podcast? Maybe not. I like looking around People in Josh's family his grandparents. They live a long time. And I'm like I don't have any grandparents that lived a long time Like in those standards at least comparatively, and I was like, oh no, maybe that means I'm going to die.
Speaker 3:before Josh, I had a weird obsession with like you're not gonna marry anyone else, you'll just think about me and you'll be, sad and there won't be another person, like really trying to make sure that it's only like like honestly feeling jealous from the grave like that's a smothering I can be and he'll like laugh and I'm like, but you're not going to right. You're just going to think about me. You're going to be one of those men that never loves again.
Speaker 1:Never.
Speaker 3:That's so funny and really I would want you to be happy, no matter what. Yeah, oh God, that's hard to think about. And then Mia, our friend Mia, told me she thought the opposite. She's like I'm worried that my husband will die before me and then I'll be stuck by myself.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, that's another worry.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I was like I didn't think of it that way. Yeah, yeah, oh, my God, it's like. It's like really, it almost could be a game, like like you know how, in act, in act therapy, acceptance and commitment therapy. There's like a, a practice you can do where it's like pick any object in the room and find a negative judgment for it, to show you that, like, anything can be negatively judged yeah kind of dismantling the veracity of that judgment.
Speaker 3:It's like anything can be worried about. You know like I could worry about this candle that's right here. It's like leaning a little bit. It's like what if I lit it one day and then it hit the thing? It's like you could find worry anywhere, you definitely can. So like do you have to? Is that necessary? Is that serving you? But sometimes when I'm worried and someone's like, is that helpful? I'm like I don't give a fuck, I'm like I'm worried you know it's like helpful yeah, I'm dying.
Speaker 1:Like it's like I think, when gratitude really there's two things that come to mind when it's these are just me personally when you're in that pain or you're in a situation and and somebody's like, well, yeah, but five years down the line, like this is really gonna like you're in that pain, or you're in a situation and and somebody is like, well, yeah, but five years down the line, like this is really good, I'm like you're going to have fond memories or it's like five years down the line.
Speaker 2:You're going to have.
Speaker 1:you know, I think that it'll be burning, but I think that where that comes up is and I know I talk about- this ad nauseum on this podcast.
Speaker 2:Podcast is parenting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, where it's like oh yeah, those sleepless nights, but you're gonna be grateful that you're. You know this is a journey, and I'm not saying I won't be, but it's like I'm not sleeping right, I'm about to have a manic episode because I'm not I'm I literally yeah.
Speaker 1:Like I'm not even saying that to, like I have not slept. Like I remember being in the office I don't know if we were working together. I just started laughing at my computer one day like uncontrollably, and like people were like what is wrong? I was like I haven't slept in two weeks. I'm so tired, yeah Well but you're going to have such great memories of being a parent. It's like that doesn't help me.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:You know, like are you? I mean sure, maybe you miss you, like your child, but like those days, I think people don't know what to say.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think that people project their own experience, which is fine yeah like that, yeah, and sure I might miss it. I I think it's like that's a quick way for them to make their experience cleaner in that moment and try to maybe caretake for you.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You being me Right, right. So that's one where it rubs me the wrong way and for some I'm going to be honest here I'm going to be vulnerable. We're therapists. I don't like gratitude journals. Yeah, that's fair I just feel like they're so overdone and it's just grab a piece of paper. Yeah, get out of my I just I don't need like.
Speaker 1:I have a million little notebooks around, right, I don't need a leather bound moleskin now there's of gratitude there's nothing wrong with the, the, if that works for people and also a lot of people do need prompts like writing is not everybody's like forte and and, like the prompts can be useful, I just don't. I feel like it's so saturated and overdone yeah, a little yeah that for some reason it just you go to like a barnes and noble and yeah there's a whole section of that and I don't know, for some reason that rubs me the wrong way yeah does that make me a bad person?
Speaker 3:no, no, I think it's pretty generic. I mean, some people like that I almost said this is reminding me of like it's like I feel like I really have to feel out in my practice if, or maybe even if I'm like whatever, like comforting or supporting a friend or something, take a temperature of like any interest in, like gratitude, and if someone's like no it's like okay, nevermind. And then if someone's like yeah, I really love gratitude practices. Then I might be like you know what A journal? Yeah, you know I think.
Speaker 1:I think it does work. I have nothing against the writing. Yeah, I have what I the packaging of it, I think, is what bothers me. Yeah, they're, they're made it. It's just something that I I feel as if just grab a piece of paper like don't go out of your way.
Speaker 1:If you really want to do this, like great. If that works for you, great, go buy one that looks nice and you can color on it. And right, maybe that's me being a little bit curmudgeon-y about it, but like I just Well, okay, now this is a tangent, but have you heard of?
Speaker 3:Oh no, we never do those Kelly, how?
Speaker 1:what a faux pas in this podcast.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I like. Obviously, gratitude journal makes me just think of journals in general. Have you heard of bullet journaling?
Speaker 1:That practice makes no sense to me.
Speaker 3:I mean talk about something eating itself alive, when that got very popular was that maybe like five, ten years ago, when that first?
Speaker 2:started and got really popular.
Speaker 3:Yeah about that.
Speaker 1:I was like, okay, I'll look into this, and I think I watched maybe ten YouTube videos on how to do it.
Speaker 3:it makes no sense to me yeah, it's like a really complex system of, like writing your tasks and putting them. To me it seems, yes, extremely complex and it's like, it's almost like it's so much planning that you're not actually living, you're just you're not doing anything yeah, like where it's just like.
Speaker 1:this is a concept, yeah, so is that like one of those escape moves, control moves from the act perspective. Like instead of living your life and doing what's on this list, you're going to make 10 more pages of symbols with five different colored markers. Right Again, I haven't seen or heard anybody talk about that. Was that a fad that people don't do it?
Speaker 3:I don't think there's any person alive that kept doing it. Who could? Those people are like in a bunker somewhere, like just all they have is a journal. They have no friends, no family. They have a journal.
Speaker 1:They're journaling to each other letters Get me out of this bunker, I'm stuck.
Speaker 3:it's like crazy. I remember seeing it. I was just like. This is almost like a version of self-harm you know, and it's also like if you it's like so much journaling that you're like, do you ever look up from the page and like think about your existence, like think about, think about identity, I kind of forgot that that thing even existed.
Speaker 3:Yeah, until you just said it yeah, like I think it's cool, like when people say like oh, I've kept a journal every day since I was a kid, I'm like I, I'm so impressed by that and therein lies a dirty little secret that I'm going to share.
Speaker 1:I love seeing somebody who has an organized journal yeah there is something to be said about it and I love the look of it. And if somebody like has really nice handwriting and if they can write in all capitals and make it look nice, I love that totally and it's also like and I hate the foresight, to think that one day someone's gonna publish this or like right, I don't know.
Speaker 3:I'm like, wow, when I was a kid I was such an idiot, like you know. I'm just like playing with my barbies like journaling journaling I feel like I'd have like two. I'd have like a journal someone got me for my birthday and like write one entry.
Speaker 1:That was like did they have like a little lock? Did it have like a lock and a little of course?
Speaker 3:yeah, of course, for my brothers I had to lock.
Speaker 1:I just wanted to be clear. I have nothing against writing.
Speaker 2:I have nothing against journaling in general Well, I do. I think it's the package.
Speaker 1:I think it's the package that it's put in that makes me cringe a little bit.
Speaker 3:Yeah maybe it's like here's your little book of gratitude, and it's maybe like the concept is so huge. You're sort of it's like reductive or it's like patronizing or something.
Speaker 1:I think patronizing yeah, might be a good word for it. Yeah, it's a good intention, certainly.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:To like give people different options? Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm almost even thinking that the issue is the word journal. Oh really it's like here's writing for idiots, here's writing for like normies.
Speaker 1:You know, like that, don't have a book deal, like those yellow books like journaling gratitude practice for idiots, or what was that like have a book like those yellow books like journaling gratitude practice for idiot, or what? What was that like book series, that with those yellow books? Oh, they made them for everything, for dummies, for dummies, yeah, oh, gratitude for dummies yeah.
Speaker 3:But yeah, it's like almost like journal is like how cute it's a journal, you know, it's kind of like making it like twee, yeah, yeah, and it's really like if you want to write a reflection on something you appreciate, there's something really profound in that and maybe a little gratitude journal feels a little like it's missing.
Speaker 1:Hokey.
Speaker 3:Essence yeah, kind of hokey, but sometimes hokey stuff works you know, hokey stuff works all the time. Yeah, so it's sort of like gotta let that go.
Speaker 2:Hmm.
Speaker 3:But I hear you, I had a gratitude journal for a while. I'm like what did I do with it? I don't know. I think I filled a lot of it out for a time and I think I found it helpful out for a time and I think I found it helpful.
Speaker 3:I actually think I did it have prompts. Yeah, it was a prompt one. Yeah, it had prompts. It was like there was a time, you know this, like there was a time when I was single and had more time on my hands, where the amount of self-care practices I did daily, I mean, I was like bullet journaling with self-care. It was like at some point you got to start living like my man, my I do remember you having like so like a few.
Speaker 1:I would do these like hour-long meditations like crazy but I think I remember the journals a little bit or at least a notebook.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah and um, I remember my when I learned the, the vedic meditation, the tm, the teacher was like you meditate twice a day for 20 minutes and no more than that transcendental meditation yeah. And I was like, why, why not more than that? And he was like, oh, you were meant you meditate to live. You don't live to meditate.
Speaker 3:And I was like, oh, I mean, that is great now I don't have to worry about it yeah, yeah, it's like I don't have to like feel guilty and it was so simple, right like you meditate to live you don't have to worry about it, yeah, yeah, it's like I don't have to like feel guilty and it was so simple, right, like you meditate to live you don't live to meditate, you know, because you like, your self-care practices or gratitude or whatever, can become more of the focus than life itself. And you know, like that's, it can become an addiction even you know, like spiritual growth or whatever.
Speaker 1:How wise is it.
Speaker 3:How wise is it? So today we're asking how wise is it to be basically like really gung-ho about your birthday?
Speaker 1:Which you couldn't even say it without a laugh.
Speaker 3:I know, but maybe that is even kind of related to gratitude, I think. But what do you think? How wise is it to be to really lavish your birthday?
Speaker 1:Never Before I get into the how wise is it? I've never been that type of person. You've not Liked my birthday, for sure as a child.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah Same.
Speaker 1:Very much so. My birthday was in the summer, the middle of the summer. I never had to be at school, it was always like a day off. It was always a pool, yeah, like outdoor type of thing Totally, or like a sport related type of thing Love it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Never got into as an adult. Let's celebrate me yeah not really for me yeah, and now the great part about it is because I'm like that my oldest son is born on my birthday we share birthdays, that's so nice so all the attention's on him now, and I love that. Yeah, it's great People still will come up to me and be like happy birthday For sure. But all of the attention's on him which is amazing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, what about the attention feels?
Speaker 1:I don't know.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Probably awkward a little bit.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like the all eyes In that context, for some reason yeah I'm a group therapist, so people's eyes are on me all the time so and that that doesn't feel. It just feels different when the attention's on you, for yeah, like celebrating you for something you had no hand in right yeah, I didn't do anything it's more like global, like celebrate my parents as a person yeah you know I, but I do. I did have friends that were like what are we doing for my birthday? Yeah, like really putting it out there yeah eek see, I know I don't know what
Speaker 3:that. That was like I haven't thought about it at all. Sometimes I like really I haven't been thinking about your birthday.
Speaker 1:as much as you've been thinking about your birthday. It's your fucking birthday. It's your birthday, I'm just kidding.
Speaker 3:I'm actually terrible at remembering people's birthdays. I'm terrible at putting them on my calendar, I feel To all my loved ones if you're listening.
Speaker 1:I'm so proud of that. Let's pause here. Guess my birthday. Let's see if you know.
Speaker 3:Yours is July 26th Close 27th Close 25th, 23rd it's in my calendar.
Speaker 1:It is Don't look.
Speaker 3:30th 30th Damn it.
Speaker 1:No, damn it. I want to guess yours, okay, and I have a strong pull and I think it's wrong, okay.
Speaker 3:April 8th. No, my cousin's wrong.
Speaker 1:Okay, april 8th.
Speaker 3:No, my cousin's birthday. Are you in March?
Speaker 1:Yeah, see, I wanted to go March and then I talked myself out of it because I was like, wait, is it that I'm just making a stereotype of her being Irish, but like a St Paddy's Day type of thing, like March 17th? Oh, let me guess, of course, let me guess, let me guess, you get super drunk. Aren't all Irish people born on March 17th? Totally so then now I'm really thrown off. Then March 23rd, no, march 11th Terrible.
Speaker 3:It's in my phone, it doesn't bother me if someone forgets, because I'm so bad at remembering.
Speaker 1:And also.
Speaker 3:It's probably in your phone. Yours is in my phone.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, there's too many to remember.
Speaker 1:Too many to remember.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I do sometimes have respect for someone who not someone who's like obnoxious about it, but someone who is like know, like I, you know it's gonna be my birthday like would you want to go out to dinner, like kind of planning a little something?
Speaker 2:yeah you know what?
Speaker 3:that's like brave and like so great it is brave we're all busy and whatever, so maybe someone like didn't have the wherewithal to like throw you one, or you don't have a best friend or a partner or something it is brave it's it's brave, for sure um it's bold, it's bold yeah because I think I do something worse where it's like I have such a like a complicated relationship to it.
Speaker 1:It's like is it wise, though? Are you setting yourself up for disappointment if? If somebody's like oh, I'm busy that day, but it was my birthday? Right I'm trying to put myself in that position yeah. Okay, if I'm thinking this is so important, I'm putting myself out there to almost like make them think it's not that they're not thinking it, but like it should be important to you too.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Well, maybe almost I don't know, is like it's wise to like appreciate the day you were born yourself, but to expect, like a specific kind of celebration, or that others this is the center of their universe yeah, that's not the wise is you're setting yourself up for you're putting unfair expectations on others and then, yeah, setting yourself up to be disappointed, and that's the thing I think that's hard about birthdays.
Speaker 3:it's like you feel like you're supposed to be like doing something so great and it's like that's kind of rare. The pressure of it is kind of hard.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and some people hate their birthdays.
Speaker 3:I don't love my birthday and it's like I want people to celebrate me, but sometimes it's also uncomfortable, like I'm like if someone doesn't, I'm kind of like, oh, that's sad like if someone. If I see someone on my birthday and they just like talk to me normally, sometimes I'm like, well, that's a bit sad, and then it's like if someone's overly celebratory.
Speaker 3:I feel like embarrassed or like I don't deserve it or something right so it's like you kind of are stuck and then the next day you're just like I could just like hang with my people and I think the un, the not wise part of it, is, maybe it's twofold.
Speaker 1:I think you're setting yourself up number one for possible disappointment because of people's reactions yeah, and then? Are people engaging with you in an authentic way, or because they feel like they have to?
Speaker 3:right I don't know yeah they feel like, oh, this person's gonna be this person's gonna be real, yeah, if I don't actually.
Speaker 1:I don't, I have no completion of that thought when is it a wise play? Like I'm taking a trip for my birthday. Do you want to join?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, we did a trip, I don do you want to join?
Speaker 3:like yeah, yeah, we did a trip I don't know yeah, yeah, you did a trip, but you're a couple.
Speaker 1:What do you mean? Same context, what are you talking about?
Speaker 3:yeah, I said to josh, I was like I would love to be on a trip for my birthday then that's a little different. I feel like yeah, totally, but some of it was to avoid being here. Sure, and I was kind of like this is the move, because you get some like texts and stuff. It's nice, but like you're away.
Speaker 1:You're away.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I don't know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, you know what? You know what? Now, josh did such a wonderful thing For my first birthday that we spent together for my first birthday no, for my the first birthday we celebrated together. Of mine, josh took me to I don't know if you've ever been to the restaurant in chicago galit damn this restaurant.
Speaker 1:I can talk about it it's so good.
Speaker 3:It's an israeli. It might be like israeli fusion, but I think it's an israeli restaurant and they only now, since covid, have a prefix or pre-fee menu but it's I don't think it's like so crazy compared to other prefix menus. Some of those are like I mean you would never, but someone would never. It's like silly. But we went for my birthday and they knew it was my birthday because maybe you filled out the thing in the reservation that said it was my birthday and most places now completely ignore that.
Speaker 3:I feel like they did the very opposite. Like they like the staff kept like asking about it and they like thanked me for like choosing that restaurant like how special that is to be the restaurant someone chooses for their birthday and there was like a little a birthday card, wow.
Speaker 3:And this, like the most delicious cookie I've ever had. It was like a tahini chocolate chip. Okay, so I like I will be chasing that dragon for the rest of my life. So good. And there was a moment where, like the hummus, the hummus was so special. It was the best hummus I've ever had. And as I was eating it, I like sometimes I do this I close my eyes if I'm really enjoying something and the way came over and, right as I was like closing my eyes, he was like, are you enjoying the food?
Speaker 3:and then he had this look on his face like you enjoying that yeah, and I laughed. I was like yeah, this is like heaven on earth yeah it was so great and I remember thinking like I know there were a bunch of strangers, but like it felt special in some weird way.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:That they like made a bit of a fuss.
Speaker 1:For sure.
Speaker 3:I really liked that. I was so. Oh God, that was such a wonderful birthday.
Speaker 1:I think there's a difference between people recognizing it's your birthday yeah. People recognizing it's your birthday, yeah. And how wise is it to really like put yourself out there with like expectations?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah Of people to celebrate you.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:That might be different, maybe I don't know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I think it is. I think you're right. It's like maybe it's an openness to someone, even an unexpected person like giving that recognition Mm-hmm to someone, even an unexpected person, like giving that recognition and then openness to like even close people, like not necessarily thinking of your birthday and that not being a measure of how much they love you or care about you or value you, yeah yeah, I mean power to the people who love their birthday and want to do something and want to get other people involved.
Speaker 1:That's great for them.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And if that works for them, great. Yeah, I feel like it's a lot of pressure.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I was. There's like an influencer named Tanks. She's kind of like a millennial influencer and does she have a birthday?
Speaker 3:she does I'm kidding um, she will talk a lot about her birthday and she, like her thing is like she gives a lot of like rules for like how you live, like as a especially as like a woman, a young woman, kind of like a contemporary of her. I mean mean, some of this stuff I don't agree with, but some of it is interesting. But she was saying, like I think when it's your birthday and you want to go out to dinner for your birthday, you have to pay for everyone. Like you can't invite people out for your birthday and then ask people to split the check.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And I was like, oh, that's interesting, because I've definitely never been like let's get together for my birthday and then like pay for everyone. I've never done that.
Speaker 1:Do you expect all the people to pay for you Because it's your birthday?
Speaker 3:I don't expect that. It's nice if it happens, but I usually expect like a lot of split. Would you be?
Speaker 1:upset if it was split, no, and it was your birthday, got it?
Speaker 3:I probably would be more touched if it wasn't, but I would be totally okay with it being split. Yeah, especially because if you add in my 20s or whatever, the financial realities of everyone who's throwing down their card at these nice restaurants, in Chicago.
Speaker 2:It's a lot to ask of someone. It is nice restaurants in Chicago.
Speaker 3:It's a lot to ask of someone. It is Like and this is an influencer who's like a multi-millionaire. So it's like it's not even something you can comment on, really.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I remember for my 40th birthday I said to Sarah I was like I don't want to make any decisions. Nice, that's my gift.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So whatever food is happening is fine. I don't want to make any decisions on my birthday. Wow, I want that. All that would be the gift to me. Yeah, she executed it amazing.
Speaker 3:So she's like brushing your teeth. It was great great well, it wasn't like it wasn't decisions.
Speaker 1:It was decisions about like what food are we gonna eat? What time is it gonna start? What how many people? Who's invited? What's the email? What's?
Speaker 2:this yeah the type of cake you know right it was.
Speaker 1:I just want to be 40 and not make a decision about that stuff today yeah, my job is to turn 40 my job is I got a lot of mileage, yeah, just need to sit. Yeah, it was great it was yeah, that is it was like that's a way to celebrate for me, yeah.
Speaker 2:Why do I?
Speaker 3:think 40 is like man. Maybe I would want to do something like a party.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Or a trip.
Speaker 1:Yeah, do it all.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:To each their own.
Speaker 3:To each their own.
Speaker 1:I don't know.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Birthdays are interesting.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they are, and what's like the big milestone birthday where people tend to do a bigger thing. Is it 40, is it 50? I feel like 40 and 50 people tend to do it big, and maybe around that yeah, probably 40 and 50, because I guess like that's when you have money and you're like working a lot and you're not like looking at retirement or like just starting out yeah, and maybe the lens is like well, it's dark, but half your life you've lived.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:If we're thinking of averages, Right.
Speaker 2:Maybe, so it's like you're halfway there.
Speaker 1:You're halfway to death, so To dead.
Speaker 3:Let's party now. Let's live yeah, pretty soon. Yeah, live, yeah, pretty soon, yeah, totally.
Speaker 1:You're going to have a lot more medical stuff.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you're going to be in hospital for one of these birthdays.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You're going to be yeah, a lot of screenings are coming up.
Speaker 3:Totally, yeah, we just watched. Have you ever seen the movie the B or not? The the movie beginners? Yeah, we just watched. Have you ever seen? The movie or not the the movie Beginners? No, it's great. It's great. It's a Mike Mills movie. I love his movies.
Speaker 1:Got it? No, the last movie I saw was Mufasa. Oh, yeah, and the movie I saw before, that was the new Nosferatu.
Speaker 3:Oh, we saw that. What did you think?
Speaker 1:It was scary as fuck. Sorry, that was a real hard.
Speaker 3:F-bomb.
Speaker 1:I thought it was scary.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, I did too, but there definitely were parts that were good.
Speaker 1:Do you have something about the mustache? Are you into this? There's like backlash about the mustache.
Speaker 3:What mustache the guy yeah.
Speaker 2:What's the mustache?
Speaker 1:Orlock yeah, there were a bunch of articles, because your phones are listening, so you come out of this movie and now I got five articles on my phone about it that the mustache took away from the scariness of Count Orlock, even though the director of the movie said that probably a Count at that time would have a mustache.
Speaker 2:That kind of looks like that.
Speaker 1:But everybody was kind of saying it looks like a 70s oh like, oh like relief picture type of mustache. Yeah, I didn't notice it that much. And then there's there were all these articles about like why was this the choice people were?
Speaker 3:saying it's not that scary he's got a mustache. See, I found, like the hands and the nails, a little silly the hand, the hand prosthetic, like it just felt very like shadows on the wall when you're a little kid okay, like that sometimes, like when the third time it happened, or like at the tour, the end, when it happened, I looked at josh and I was like, like, but I still really like the movie.
Speaker 3:I think I almost liked it because I didn't get too, too scared yeah like it was a bit it wasn't like one of these, like he loves horror, so we've watched some that are just like gore and like so disturbing and you're just like I don't want to think about this happening to anyone ever. And this was more like yeah, there was like enchantment to it, you know like yeah, yeah, I don't seek out horror at all. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So it's very rare that I see a movie in that category.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm interested in the director. I'm also interested in that it was a remake. So, I didn't feel like there were other movies out that I really wanted to see, so maybe that's why it felt scary to me because I don't want to spend four hours in the brutalist. Are you? I'm thinking about seeing it.
Speaker 3:No, we're totally okay, you're going to see it. Yeah, when do you kill four hours? Yeah?
Speaker 1:And I was like so I'll see this movie. So maybe that's why it felt scary to me, Cause I don't really see.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they say that you get desensitized, it's so dark and loud too, and Lily Rose Depp was incredible, very good. The acting was very good, very, very good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Also, the guy who played Kick-Ass is in that. Do you remember that movie Kick-Ass? Wait, I've never seen it.
Speaker 3:It's like a kid. I don't know why you asked that it was incredible.
Speaker 1:It's a kid who's like why doesn't anybody just become a superhero for real?
Speaker 3:and so he becomes a superhero, but he's not really a superhero. He's like the good looking guy and his name is Kick-Ass.
Speaker 1:He names himself Kick-Ass, but he was maybe it's not Nicholas Holt it's the guy who he's got the little girl.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah yeah, yeah, yeah what's his name?
Speaker 3:I forget. He's in a Marvel movie now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's getting really bad reviews, but he, yeah, yeah, it looks terrible Kick-ass.
Speaker 2:Look it up.
Speaker 3:He must have seen that movie.
Speaker 1:Kick-Ass yeah, he was good in that movie, not just kick ass, but he was good.
Speaker 3:He was good in nasferatu. I thought, yes, yeah, he was good.
Speaker 1:I think the the whole thing was so good I took it on a tangent there, but, beginners, what you were?
Speaker 3:oh yeah beginners yeah, no, I did like that movie um beginners. It's about um ewan mcgregor's in it and christ Christopher Plummer plays his dad who his mom dies and then his dad comes out of the closet in his 80s, after the mom dies, and wants to like live at that age something about like being older and your birthdays made me think of this.
Speaker 3:But it's great and he really is like there's like so many great lines in it, but he's like I don't want to be gay theoretically, like I want to do something about it, like even at the end, and like he lives, this really cool kind of rich life, and also his son kind of grapples with this idea of like the dad I knew isn't the dad he actually is, and like what does that mean is I'm also starting to grieve his death because he has cancer. Okay, and it's so fucking funny.
Speaker 1:Is that on a platform or is it in a theater?
Speaker 3:We had to rent it on Prime. It was like $399 or whatever. Okay, I had seen it a bunch.
Speaker 2:Sounds great. I love that movie.
Speaker 3:It's like so charming. It'll like charm your socks off Like it's so good. Ewan McGregor is so good in it. Yeah, there's like a part where he like the sun brings over food and there's all these like men. There is like one of his like gay men's clubs and he's like dad. I thought I was cooking you dinner. He's like it's movie night, you idiot it's hilarious funny the way he says it. It's great. The whole movie is like that a little bit yeah, yeah, he's so good in it yeah, you should see it.
Speaker 3:I'm gonna see it. It's great. The whole movie is like that a little bit, yeah. Yeah, he's so good in it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you should see it.
Speaker 3:I'm gonna see it. It's great. But yeah, talk about someone like getting older and being like vibrant for sure um yeah, I don't even really know why that was related, but anyway, it's a great movie birthdays yeah, yeah, yeah, um, okay, well, we've solved it, we've solved it as always joy on your birthday
Speaker 1:be open to it people celebrating you and also open to people not celebrate yourself, yeah, and if people want to come along for the ride, so be it yeah, I like that definitely that is a great intention for one's birthday.
Speaker 3:Like, how am I gonna celebrate myself?
Speaker 1:yeah like energetically yeah and what's meaningful to me yeah, I love that, because maybe that's like just the thing we tell ourselves it has to be a celebration or something yeah, yeah do you really even like that?
Speaker 3:yeah, then your style, I don't know. Yeah, okay, well, thank you so much for joining us of, of course, anything you want to plug or anything, john, well, I do want to add that because we posted the podcast, I do want to shout out my brother, Jake.
Speaker 2:Butts for doing our logo.
Speaker 1:He did a great job with it.
Speaker 3:Yes, oh, I'm sorry I didn't mention that in the post. Thank you so much, jake.
Speaker 1:I think it looks really really nice. So, big brother, thank you so much.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and as always, if people want to reach out, ask questions or want us to ask a how wise is a question here? Please email me. Last name, buts B-U-T-Z. Dot. Jonathan J-O-N-A-T-H-A-N. At gmailcom.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, that'd be great If we got some listener suggestions on what to discuss. I love that. Um yeah, and if you want to contact me, you want to work with me. Um, my website is kkpsychotherapycom, so yeah, you can contact me there and and learn a bit about me and my practice. Um yeah, and if you're interested in following the pod, we're eventually going to have a podcast Instagram page, but for now, my Instagram handle is kind of where I'm posting about it at Kelly Kilgall, so my last name shortened K-I-L-G-A-L.
Speaker 1:So yeah, we should plug that. Probably our first guest, yes, next week next episode.
Speaker 3:Former co-worker and a current colleague in many ways of both of us co-workers still of john's. Yeah, it's gonna be here. It'll be really exciting and I thank you always to josh bayer, our always producer sitting right next to me. We really appreciate and feel gratitude for you big time each and every day, yeah.
Speaker 1:And to blanket forts for our music, oh yes, thank you.
Speaker 3:Blanket, forts, blanket, forts, blanket are you okay? Blanket forth. Thank you so much thank you so much bye everybody bye the wise mind happy hour podcast is for entertainment purposes only, not to be treated as medical advice. If you are struggling with your mental health, please seek medical attention or counseling.