Perfectionism (and the wisdom of letting go)

So many of us can fall into the trap of wanting to be PERFECT...wanting the perfect body, the perfect relationship, or the perfect podcast. But what if we embraced imperfection? We explore this (and more) on our latest episode of Wise Mind Happy Hour.

(And stay tuned till the end for an exclusive segment on the wisdom of bumper stickers.)

- music by blanket forts -

Transcript

Introduction and Week Summary

Speaker 2 0:07

Welcome to the.

Speaker 3 0:08

Wise Mind Happy Hour podcast.

Speaker 1 0:10

Second take Welcome to the Wise.

Speaker 2 0:14

Mind Happy Hour.

Speaker 1 0:16

I'm John.

Speaker 2 0:17

I'm.

Speaker 1 0:17

Kelly and we're your resident therapists. We're just here visiting. We have some topics in mind. I also wanted to thank vj for joining us last yes, that was lovely. How are you?

Speaker 2 0:31

I'm good, I'm good, yeah, yeah, this week has been pretty good um, of course, every time I like sit down to review my week, I have like amnesia the instant I start to think about what I've done. But my week, actually my weeks, have been work-wise not too too heavy, which I feel like happens at the beginning of the year, my schedule's a little bit later. So been doing kind of like some things on the side of my practice, some training stuff like that, which has been good and wedding and wedding planning.

Speaker 2 1:04

Yeah, that's been good slash, a little bit stressful it always is yeah, we're like finalizing our list list, list list for invites. Like this is the last frontier you know of. Okay, these are going on the invites which it's also like.

Speaker 1 1:27

I made the cut though.

Speaker 3 1:28

Yeah, john made the cut.

Speaker 1 1:29

John made the cut Barely.

Speaker 2 1:31

John, yeah, barely.

Speaker 1 1:32

You're on the bubble, but you made it in there, um yeah, I'm going to be like parking cars, but I'm still, I'm still invited.

Speaker 2 1:39

Yeah, we are going to need a hand with a few things, but yeah, that's been good. The wedding planning it's like every time you engage with it. You probably remember this from when you planned the wedding. It's exciting in so many ways and then kind of very quickly it becomes sort of stressful with almost each thing.

Speaker 1 1:55

Yeah, Well, I always said things, that I went into it thinking there's no way this could be an issue, turned into an issue.

Speaker 2 2:04

Yeah.

Speaker 1 2:07

A hundred percent it's. It's like no napkins, that just that can't possibly be an issue. Why would that be an issue? And I feel like it, not that they were like huge things. Everything needed a decision, though, or everything needed like a final say, or it needed like a separate email or a separate.

Speaker 2 2:23

Or several final.

Speaker 1 2:24

Yeah, so I feel like there are big things that require a lot of decisions. It's just decision fatigue a lot of the time, too, and a lot of just talking about it Totally, which can be really draining.

Speaker 2 2:37

Yeah.

Speaker 1 2:37

So it's exciting and I feel you on that yeah.

Speaker 2 2:41

Yeah, I know we already covered this in a previous episode of like is it wise to have a wedding? That, yeah, yeah, I know we already covered this in a previous episode of like is it wise to have a wedding. But it's funny, my one of my friends this week or last week we caught up and she's considering having a wedding, or her dad keeps telling her I'll also just give you the money to do whatever you want with it. Like, like I'm gonna not married like run from the sky.

Speaker 2 3:07

No, no take the money and just shout out to Kathleen and David we love you and you're the best couple. But no, like she was really wondering, should I? Which way should I go with it?

Speaker 1 3:18

Yeah.

Speaker 2 3:18

And it's an interesting conversation, Cause she was asking me as I'm planning a wedding you know my thoughts. I was like you know it's, it is a lot to take on. And I said to her I was kind of trying to compromise and like cheat and I was like could you take the money and then spend a portion of it on some kind of party, that's a wedding? And she was like that's probably what we'll do.

Speaker 2 3:41

I think it's a great idea yeah, because they want to buy a house. They're going to, you know, do a bunch of other things and I'm like telling her whole business, I feel like to the planning and the buildup to it.

Speaker 1 3:56

I felt like my shoulders were at like your level the whole time and then like there's this huge like not relief, but almost like, oh, I could breathe fully, like when like the day is here. There's no more decisions to be made. There was almost like I can finally, like I mean you're you're still amped up.

Speaker 2 4:15

Right, but it's almost like.

Speaker 1 4:16

I take a deep breath here, Like because whatever's going to happen is just going to like happen now. It's just going to happen. Yeah, Train left the station.

Speaker 2 4:23

And you even felt that about like your vows.

Speaker 1 4:27

Like.

Speaker 2 4:28

Like kind of like relaxed, even though you still hadn't said your vows.

Speaker 1 4:32

I mean, you're still nervous.

Speaker 2 4:33

Yeah.

Speaker 1 4:34

Like there's that level of it. I do think there was a layer that started to. It wasn't like all of a sudden, like whew, but it started to become more apparent. That it's like I just can't even do anything anymore.

Speaker 1 4:48

Right, it's like it's it's all the decisions or the things that we did or didn't do, or there's going to be mistakes and this, and that it's just kind of like. You kind of are it's just okay. And then you're nervous about sure, you're nervous about, like, the little stuff. The little stuff, or you're going to be in front of people or you know, are you going to say the wrong thing? Are you going to forget to say something? But but I think there's a little bit of a relief.

Speaker 2 5:12

Yeah.

Speaker 1 5:12

That can come from the letting go of like no more decisions you know, Totally. But you're in thick of it and yeah, makes total sense.

Speaker 3 5:20

I know.

Speaker 1 5:26

I was there. Yeah, I feel you on it. My kids my oldest has been having more sleepovers and stuff which has been kind of exciting, so fun and like a new stage in his development. So that's been really interesting to see and fun to see, and also some of my own kind of like anxieties come about with it, yeah.

Speaker 2 5:44

Like what do you fear?

Speaker 1 5:46

just like it's definitely not fear when he's sleeping over at somebody else's house, because it's kind of like, well, it's out of your hands. But yeah, like when you know somebody's over and then I have my youngest son, is everybody getting it along? And uh, what if my youngest son, or is everybody getting it along? And what if my youngest son feels like he's missing?

Speaker 2 6:06

out.

Speaker 1 6:06

Oh sure, and you know, is there enough? Do we even have enough space? Cause we don't have that big of a place? I think it's just more of like the getting used to just the idea of like, well, yeah, they're just going to figure it out and do whatever. They'll play Like. You don't really have to like do anything?

Speaker 2 6:23

Yeah, curate it. Yeah, curate it in any way, but I feel, like I, I kind of have to. So yeah, oh yeah. I bet there is that pressure of like create a fun hang.

Speaker 1 6:33

Yeah, and they would play basketball in our basement on like a little hoop for hours on end, you know yeah. And that's great. Or looking at their sports cards and stuff.

Speaker 2 6:43

Yeah, yeah, shout out to basketball in the little hoop. It's so fun.

Speaker 1 6:48

Except when my kids now are getting bigger, they're like well, we obviously need a bigger hoop, we need more space. It's like well it doesn't really work like that. It's actually you're getting bigger and that means our place is getting smaller.

Speaker 2 7:00

Yeah, you have to, but if we could?

Speaker 1 7:03

convert it into like a gym.

Speaker 2 7:04

They would love that. God, yeah, that'd be so cool. When we were little, we put a hoop in the alley. We just like played.

Speaker 1 7:11

I know we don't have that.

Speaker 2 7:12

Yeah, it's kind of dangerous, honestly, we don't have that available.

Speaker 1 7:16

We've looked into it for, like an outdoor situation, it's just other than taking them to the park.

Speaker 2 7:21

Yeah, the park, but that could be cool and like social Mm-hmm, you know.

Speaker 1 7:26

Yeah, that would be cool, it was hard to do that when they were younger because the rims are just so high.

Speaker 2 7:30

Yeah.

Speaker 1 7:31

Now it's not as much of an issue, but yeah, anyway.

Speaker 2 7:33

God, I remember when I was little I'm just realizing this Almost every sleepover. I went to grade when this happened. We made like a detailed plan of how to sneak out every night that night.

Speaker 1 7:49

Like how to sneak out that night? Yeah, to do what?

Speaker 2 7:52

to go to wherever the boys were having a sleepover oh yeah, to see them yeah, and it's like I was never the ringleader of this. Yeah, but of course I would like go along with it pretty anxiously, kind of like. We're definitely gonna get in trouble for this like.

Speaker 1 8:07

So that's like, was there ever a level of like calling the boys, or was it always we need to see them? When I was younger, oh no, we were like on the horn with them.

Speaker 2 8:19

Yeah, it was like had to be the next level.

Speaker 3 8:21

We.

Speaker 1 8:21

We're calling.

Speaker 3 8:23

Yeah.

Speaker 1 8:24

And there was always one person at the sleepover who you knew, who they liked didn't want to do the call. And then the rest of us were like you're doing the call, You're making this call.

Speaker 2 8:35

This is what you're going to say.

Speaker 1 8:37

And the person was like I don't want to talk to their parents. I hope their dad doesn't answer the phone. I'm scared. What if their dad answers? I? I hope their dad doesn't answer the phone. I'm scared. What if their dad answers?

Speaker 2 8:51

I'm going to hang up right away with their older sibling. Wow, you went straight for seeing the boys. I had a couple of friends Now, our mutual friend, mia, who I grew up with, who's also a therapist.

Speaker 2 9:01

she wasn't she knows this wasn't allowed as much to hang out with the group that I hung out with when we were in sixth, seventh, eighth grade, because these girls were quote on the fast track, which I was grouped into this group and was like nervous and like you know, you know, the guy in the hangover that plays the dentist, um ed helms, like I was that guy a little bit kind of like guys, I don't know, you know, like trepidatious a little bit, yeah like, but kind of like guys, I don't know, you know like a little bit, yeah, like, but kind of like not going to rain on everyone's parade, but definitely like would be fine to just stay in and watch a movie.

Speaker 3 9:32

The fast track to what?

Speaker 2 9:33

To boys pretty much.

Speaker 1 9:35

Got it.

Speaker 2 9:35

I mean probably some of them cigarettes, drinking. I mean the sixth, seventh, eighth grade.

Speaker 3 9:40

I wasn't even thinking about that personally, but yeah, like it's like bad decisions Like yeah, like let's do something bad.

Speaker 2 9:50

There were like a couple girls where you're like, or one girl really. Yeah, who you're just kind of like yeah, this person needs to defy yeah.

Speaker 1 10:02

Did you ever execute the sneaking out?

Speaker 2 10:04

A couple times, yeah, yeah, but really like we didn't go that far.

Speaker 1 10:08

it's like we would like meet somewhere and like chit chat and like how can it be funny if the end of that story was well, yeah, they lived next door and that was where the sleepover was so we just kind of like went to the driveway yeah, and I feel like the plan was hatched a lot and wasn't executed that often.

Speaker 2 10:23

But yeah, man it, man, it's like. When you said I feel anxiety, my mind went there of like oh, no are they going to make mischief I?

Speaker 1 10:32

think there is a lot to the anticipation of we could do something.

Speaker 2 10:38

Yeah, like developing that plan, it's kind of the whole thing.

Speaker 1 10:41

That's the fun of it. Yeah, what?

Speaker 3 10:42

if we do this, we could actually maybe do this yeah, totally.

Speaker 1 10:47

that's the fun of it. We could actually maybe do this yeah, totally. And whether you execute it or not, maybe isn't yeah, yeah, it's so true.

Speaker 2 10:54

It's just like the thrill of it and sharing that with your friends. I even think some of the fun of a sleepover is just like I can hang with my friends, fall asleep and wake up and we're still hanging out almost just like you're so desperate for your friends at that age I can hang with my friends, fall asleep and wake up, and we're still hanging out Almost, just like you're so desperate for your friends at that age Right.

Speaker 1 11:10

Yeah, you just want to consume your friends.

Speaker 2 11:12

Yeah. You want to be around them all the time You're like this is my pure joy.

Speaker 1 11:17

Yeah, this is my friends. Were you the person who fell asleep first usually?

Speaker 2 11:22

No, I feel like I kind of had trouble falling asleep.

Speaker 3 11:25

Did you?

Speaker 1 11:26

Yeah.

Speaker 2 11:26

Maybe because I was always like this is a foreign house a little bit. Yes or I had a lot of friends who had like scary older siblings and stuff.

Speaker 1 11:33

How did you feel about food at somebody else's house? That's a great question, I feel like that's an anxiety provoking thing, and I feel like there were certain houses where I was like oh god, what am I gonna eat?

Speaker 1 11:45

yeah, there were certain houses that I knew as in like you were picky, or um, I don't know if it was picky as much as certain houses had, maybe like pantries that had food I liked, or maybe that I was used to in other houses. Um, like they were like, oh, they're going to make something homemade instead of just order a pizza and it was like oh, I don't know what, the homemade thing is going to be Chicken paprika or something You're like.

Speaker 2 12:15

Just order a pizza. Why can't we just order pizza, like it's Friday, yeah.

Speaker 1 12:20

So I feel like that created some anxiety for me with sleepovers. Yeah.

Speaker 2 12:25

Yeah, totally.

Speaker 1 12:26

Like what is the food situation?

Speaker 2 12:28

Yeah, now that you say that.

Speaker 1 12:30

Look like I know it. You know, I know it does for my oldest.

Speaker 2 12:35

Yeah.

Speaker 1 12:35

You know you're used to what you're used to and he's still really young, yeah, so we try to feed him as much as we can before we go, yeah. And it's like, let's just eat all of this. Remember you can always have cereal. You all of this. Remember you can always have cereal. You can always right that type of thing.

Speaker 2 12:49

Yeah, that I mean we literally do that, josh and I like everywhere we go, because we're like very into food and we're like a little bit of spoiled princesses living in chicago, where there's so much good food. So like, so often we're like we don't like it, we'll just have cereal when we get back. You know, like really well, like because, yeah, I get a little like I want it to be so good even now. So I imagine I probably was like that as a kid, yeah.

Speaker 3 13:13

Like wanting to be good, I do like though, having.

Speaker 1 13:17

I want to be the parent who makes the breakfast in the morning. I've done that the past couple times that you know these boys have slept over, or whatever Been like. What do you want Making the pancakes, the bacon? You know these boys have slept over, or whatever Ben like. What do you want Making the pancakes, the bacon? You know the waffles. I want to be that parent. Yeah, Like whatever you want in the morning, I'll make it for you.

Speaker 2 13:39

Yeah, which is?

Speaker 1 13:39

like that's really satisfying Totally.

Speaker 2 13:42

My mom used to get donuts, which we liked.

Speaker 1 13:45

That's nice too.

Speaker 2 13:46

But I guess sometimes they would make eggs and stuff. That's nice too, but I guess sometimes they would make eggs and stuff. But we didn't do a lot of pancake making. And now, as an adult, I'm like we're really into pancakes these days, really wanting to wake up to like a big pile of them to choose from. Oh, sounds amazing. I actually thought this weekend maybe my brother would do that. We visited my brother in Cleveland.

Speaker 1 14:07

Oh yeah, cleveland.

Speaker 2 14:09

And his kids. Yeah, yeah, which was very fun. It was my niece's third birthday, so that was fun. And yeah, they had a face like a professional face painter in air quotes um yeah, but yeah, waking up at sleepover pancakes there's nothing like it, but I think they're too busy planning the birthday party, so we ended up getting bagels both days, which were good.

Speaker 1 14:31

Still good.

Speaker 2 14:31

Yeah, but I need there to be like 600 pancakes. Even if I don't eat that many Like that's enough to make me feel safe.

Speaker 1 14:40

You want that like Uncle Buck scene, where-.

Speaker 2 14:42

Yes, oh, my God, the giant pancakes it's like huge the spread the birthday spread. He's like you're listening to W, I don't have to go to work today.

Speaker 1 14:51

So many good lines in that movie.

Speaker 2 14:54

I know I love that movie. Well, maybe it's time.

Speaker 1 14:57

It's time to transition.

Speaker 2 14:59

Yeah, you brought this topic up because you said it's coming a lot into your sessions, right? Yeah, and it always kind of is.

Wedding Planning: The Exciting and Stressful

Speaker 1 15:09

Topic today is perfectionism yeah there are so many like lay definitions of this yeah but yeah, john has a little definition and some kind of categories yeah, some categories which I thought was really interesting, because when we did this or, I'm sorry, when you chatted that, this was the topic, it is something that's almost like omnipresent with therapy and and just it's just something that comes up so much. But there was this interesting like blog on the I don't know how I found this um the division of continuing education at harvard. There's this blog about ever heard of it just like, and what I said, ever heard of it please maybe you haven't, um, but it had this definition of, and this was written by jessica kent in 2023.

Speaker 1 16:00

it says while we typically think of perfectionism as holding high standards for oneself, psychologists paul hewitt and gordon flatt identified three forms of perfectionism in their 1991 paper so definitely dated. So certainly perfectionism for the self is self-oriented perfectionism, having unrealistic expectations for yourself, holding yourself to perfect standards and being hard on yourself when you don't meet those expectations. So that would be the first category.

Speaker 1 16:29

The second category is other-oriented perfectionism having unrealistic expectations for others, holding others to perfect standards and being hard on others when they don't meet those expectations. And then the third category was socially prescribed perfectionism, which is believing that others have unrealistic expectations for you and that others are holding you to perfect standards and that others will be critical of you when you don't meet those expectations.

Speaker 2 16:55

So I just thought those were interesting.

Speaker 1 16:56

So interesting Categories and I think, a lot of times probably what we deal. Well, I won't make that assumption. What I deal with a lot in the group space is that self oriented category, that first category which presents itself that people constantly say I push myself, I don't allow myself the room for error or mistakes.

Speaker 1 17:22

And this blog was certainly saying like this isn't to be confused with striving for excellence. Right, like, people can still be excellent in their lives and maybe not lean in so heavily, but I don't know. What do you think of those three categories? Striving for excellence? Right Like people can still be excellent in their lives and maybe not lean in so heavily.

Speaker 2 17:32

But I don't know. What do you think of those three categories?

Speaker 2 17:35

It's so interesting Like I'm curious about the first and the third and the real difference only because when dealing with, like even your own perfectionism or with the client in the clinical setting, what you do, as you do with everything, is like you kind of get in contact with the part of you that's perfectionist and you kind of flesh it out and come to understand, through kind of communicating with this part of you, what its good intention for you is. And I would wonder if, like when you contact someone's perfectionism, if there would be a lot of difference in the protective mechanism versus, like socially prescribed or self, because I wonder if the self ultimately would be to be good enough for others, you know, to be safe and secure in the world each person's perfectionist probably has a slight different tone to it.

Speaker 2 18:35

But yeah, like I'm not, I'm not saying they're not different.

Speaker 1 18:37

I'm curious about yeah, I mean the way it's written, it feels like it's left a little bit open-ended, like if you feel like others are putting that on you. Does that drive you then to be the self-oriented?

Speaker 2 18:51

Actually, yeah, you're right.

Speaker 1 18:52

Or is it just? I just feel, like everybody around me, there's so much pressure and that doesn't. I mean certainly it has an impact, but that might not move the needle as far into then I have to be one.

Speaker 2 19:03

Yes, you're right. That's what it is Like. Do you join in? Do you join in on it?

Speaker 1 19:08

And then those two maybe collapse into one another? Yes, and that becomes just a really vicious kind of cycle, which then, maybe the third one you start holding other people. I mean all of them can blend.

Speaker 2 19:19

Yeah.

Speaker 1 19:19

I wonder, though, if there are instances where, because you feel everyone around you, or your family system, or whatever the work, the system, you're a part of the work environment, the academia, everyone around, but it doesn't really push you to everything, you just feel like shitty about it.

Speaker 3 19:35

Yeah, yeah I don't know yeah, or shitty about yourself maybe right, right.

Speaker 2 19:40

Yeah, well, sometimes in some like families or like community groups, like there is an implicit kind of rule of perfection the term.

Speaker 1 19:50

So many people, when we're talking about in the group space, really just have this overarching conceptualization that they are this perfectionist in everything they do. The more we talk about it, though, with the clients, patients, I feel like they're able to see more that it's like oh, actually, there are areas of my life where maybe I don't lean into that so much, and and I think that can be really exciting to be like, oh, like, cause I think so many times we just say I'm a perfectionist. I'm a perfectionist about you know everything. When you drill down, though, maybe there are things that you're allowing yourself the space to not be, perfect, and so can we call on that experience.

Speaker 1 20:35

What's that like, as well as why does this context or this thing bring up so much for you to?

Speaker 2 20:41

want to lean in, you know so hard.

Speaker 1 20:43

I was thinking about this driving over and I feel like when this showed up for me, a lot especially when I was a kid was with creativity and wanting to be good at drawing, specifically drawing. I really wanted to be good at that and I wanted to be a good painter. And Bob Ross was one of my heroes as a kid um, and he made it look so effortless yeah, he really did and I remember my mom got me a like oil which, if you know anything about painting like oil, is extremely difficult.

Speaker 1 21:26

Um, I mean, all painting is difficult, but oil is you have to like, and I've taken oil painting classes since I was a kid, but it's complicated yeah, like it's not just like the way it behaves it behaves but you also have to thin it.

Speaker 1 21:41

Yeah, it can't just be like you put a thin on a thick, a thick on a thin, like it has a different composition to it. It doesn't. It takes a long time to dry, like all these things. And I just remember being so excited to get it and just being miserable because it just didn't look like a bob ross painting and I wanted it to be so perfect and and then what it ended up doing was it took me out of the the process of enjoying these paints, because then I just shut it down and I didn't even want to do it. Yeah, and so I was thinking on the way over. I was like, when perfectionism is ramped up for me in my life, it's completely just taking me out of the process of anything. Yeah, because I'm so fixated on the outcome.

Speaker 2 22:19

Yeah, totally, and it's so interesting for it to come up in creativity because it's not a solve for X type of endeavor.

Speaker 1 22:31

And that probably was there driving me nuts too, yeah and there wasn't an answer. Yeah, it is fluid. It's so fluid there's. It's open to interpretation and that probably drove me nuts too as a kid.

Speaker 2 22:38

Yeah, you know what this makes me think of, because this is something you said earlier tonight, before we turn the mics on, how you like don't go in for like the academy awards kinds of things, and it makes sense like they give these awards right and kind of like rankings to like creative projects in film, and I think it was shanae o'connor, like was nominated for like a bunch of grammys one year and she was just like grammys, like awards for music, like what.

Speaker 2 23:11

I don't want this and like refused it and I was like I freaking love that, like that's amazing to really be like you're missing it if you think that's what this is what this is about, yeah yeah like get out of here if you think?

Speaker 2 23:25

this is a competition like you are missing it and I was like love, I mean, how bold to even get the nominations and be like fuck this, so cool, one of the many cool things she did. But yeah, like it can come up. Even in spaces where it's sort of like it's hard to even apply it to, it can still come up and get activated.

Speaker 3 23:49

Yeah, apply it to it can still come up and get activated.

Speaker 2 23:55

Yeah, well, I work a lot with body image and disordered eating and body dysmorphia and yeah, this is all over the place perfecting the body, perfecting the appearance, and it's funny. I work with this and I do think this is a place where perfectionism has in my life, come up for me at times and I do think I have a pretty good relationship with that part of me now over many years. But it's tricky because especially, I mean, this is such an overused talking point but in the age of like image-based social media, it's just people disordered behavior in terms of perfectionism around your appearance has become normalized, like there's video after video of people like on airplanes wearing a face mask and like dry brushing and like this gua sha on their face so they don't get bloated for like 10 seconds on an airplane, imperceptibly bloated on an airplane, and I'm like this is like glorifying, like deeply disordered behavior and it's so normalized Like it shocks me, you know, and like.

Speaker 1 25:08

Because the thought of somebody seeing them in a state of bloat bloat even for a couple hours or whatever is intolerable yeah yeah, it's like that.

Speaker 1 25:18

I can't tolerate not looking perfect or feeling physically perfect wow yeah, and it's like, so it's also consuming I mean, one of the things that this um blog I was referencing was talking about too, just the time, how time consuming perfectionism can come, and just the energy, yeah, um, or on the flip side of that, the energy you put into never really starting or completing anything yeah, yes, the other, yes, the other side of it, the other side of it. Right Like it's, it's not going to be perfect. So the fear of what an imperfect thing would be, experience product whatever.

Speaker 2 26:00

Yeah, I'm just not even going to bother. Yeah.

Speaker 1 26:02

Almost that. You know apathy place too, right, yeah, and again getting back to the creativity. I know that that really again taking me out of the process, but also, like it, engaged me in the process so much that I would just overwork stuff and then it just looked terrible. Yeah, it was like it reached a point where, okay, that's maybe good, could I tolerate it, and then it just like tipped over because I would just overwork something I would overwork a drawing, or I would overwork I would always find something I gotta like do and and it, just then it turned into something that it it wasn't even recognizable, really.

Speaker 2 26:42

Yeah, yeah yeah I mean it's like I don't know who said this, quote someone but I share it often with my clients that you know, the more you try to control your life, appearance or your work, but even like perfecting the time your friends have hanging out at your house, oh, yeah, that comes up a lot yeah, or the wedding you know, like the kind of wedding you host, or yeah, I think, cultivating a person's experience, yes, that that gets really ramped up.

Speaker 1 27:28

That's really tough. They have to have a great time, yeah, and even when you say great time, I think there's a version of that. That's true, like I think. A lot of people, though, are like I want them to have the best time.

Speaker 3 27:40

I want them to have a perfect time.

Speaker 2 27:42

Perfect time, Like. What is that going to look like? Yeah, and ultimately it's like controlling how they feel.

Speaker 1 27:46

I know I've said it. I don't mean people, as if I don't struggle with that too sometimes.

Speaker 2 27:50

Totally, totally no-transcript, and I thought it was a really clever way to you know, really just do an exposure and tolerate the feelings that come when, oh, something's out of place. Can I live in that space, in that like distress?

Speaker 1 28:31

Yeah, do something badly. Yeah, I know bad's judgment. Do something, practice doing things you're not good at. Yeah, to build that tolerance, yeah, and really, I think, the getting back to what do you get out of the process of it?

Speaker 2 28:48

Yeah.

Speaker 1 28:48

Like what can we take away from that? Certainly there's going to of the process of it. Yeah, like what can we take away from that? Certainly there's going to be the distress of it's. It's not going to feel like satisfying maybe, and you don't know. It's like how could I engage in a process imperfectly and what could I take from it?

Speaker 2 29:03

Yeah, definitely. You have to be with yourself a lot more in that space. Yeah, like perfectionism obviously, like in ocd treatment, it's like you would use kind of like exposures to help people, maybe a hierarchy of like what, what feels like the hardest to tolerate, the lowest to tolerate, of like imperfect behaviors. But I really do think it's such a socially sanctioned like approved of part of people. Right, it's one of those protectors that's like society likes this you know, wants me bosses like this.

Navigating Sleepovers: Parenting Insights

Speaker 2 29:44

Yes, sometimes partners like this right yeah, and so it's like having to like validate it, really allow it and then explore it and let that part of someone speak up, because so I'm sure you've had this experience I know you have where, when you start to work on it, there is a lot of defensiveness, like I don't want to let this go right you know like what will become of me?

Speaker 1 30:13

yeah well, and there's, like you just said, people are very fused with the idea that it just produces good results yeah or or high level work, or high motivation. Yeah, and I think it's teasing apart that, and also, well, we're not telling you this is an anti-excellence yeah this isn't. You can't excel or be really, really, really talented or good at something it's how can we hold that and still allow the space for mistakes? Because the perfection just doesn't allow the space for that at all yeah it's just the constant, like berating right you know, and it's certainly a control move.

Speaker 1 30:54

So what are you trying to control or escape? What inner experience, what are those private events, what are the thoughts? Those are the things to get people to sit more in contact with. Yeah, and and allow to be there feel that notice, when those thoughts are telling you to do it, and okay, I don't have to act on those as much.

Speaker 2 31:15

Yeah, yeah, and it's like that's also too, I think, where like memories can come in. You know, when you like help someone, contact the feeling of not being perfect and they can really feel into it and they can really feel into it.

Speaker 2 31:28

A lot of times like this is an EMDR thing where memory will come up of like places where imperfection was very dangerous for them or upsetting or really painful, and they really learned in a real way. Like I have to take control here, or else like I will be in this pain so much or it'll consume me. And that's real, you know, that's the person's reality that has to be honored and often, like the movement around it or like separation from a perfectionist part has to be very gentle and like offered right, like maybe we can like relieve this part of you of its duties and give back the self more control, where it's like playful and open and spacious and you do things because they bring that vitality, not because you're like chained to this need for control.

Speaker 1 32:28

Do you think the other? We didn't, so we talked about the first or the first and the third one. Do you think the other? Oriented perfectionism can live without the others. So that was the having unrealistic expectations for others, holding others to perfect standards and being hard on others when they don't meet those.

Speaker 2 32:46

This one is like. I think this one is like pervasive and also kind of like below the radar.

Speaker 1 32:53

Yeah, are you do yeah? I'm just interested Cause it's like. Are you holding yourself to those as well?

Speaker 2 33:03

Yeah.

Speaker 1 33:04

Or is it just, and it's, I'm sure, very complicated, but the focus is more on the other.

Speaker 2 33:12

Yeah.

Speaker 1 33:13

Interesting.

Speaker 2 33:14

Kind of like I'll do this so much where it's like this driver. Why aren't they doing exactly what they're supposed to be doing as a driver?

Speaker 1 33:21

Yeah.

Speaker 2 33:21

You know next to me and it's like you really want to like control the other people in your experience.

Speaker 1 33:28

Yeah.

Speaker 2 33:29

Like you want to create this like perfectly comfortable your experience yeah. Like you want to create this like perfectly comfortable, predictable environment.

Speaker 1 33:34

Yeah, have I shared on this podcast, like my one of my emotion minded thoughts that I have when I'm driving a lot of the time. It's completely absurd what it's. If everybody just drove the way I did, this wouldn't be happening.

Speaker 2 33:49

Oh my God, I love it. It's diagnostic.

Speaker 1 33:50

I'm literally in a traffic jam, and this is the thought my mind is giving me. I love that my mind is telling me if everybody just drove like you? Because, you're so good at driving like that's not based in reality at all. Yeah, the idea, the most absurd idea, that if everybody was just driving, there wouldn't be a bottleneck here, there wouldn't be a traffic jam. That is like one of the most unbelievably emotion-minded thoughts that I have when I'm in traffic.

Speaker 1 34:20

But it taps into the idea of like I'm perfect right now. I'm driving perfectly, yeah, and everyone else better shape up.

Speaker 2 34:26

Our old coworker, our old coworkerworker in office meet. Shout out to james. He would sometimes like would we complain about other people at the end of our like complaints he'd go. Not everyone can be us not everyone can be us it really was like the best reality check that was a. That was a mic drop when he said that yeah not everyone can be us. Yeah, it's like getting in that mode of like really expecting others to be perfect, and that really is like about comfort, you know.

Speaker 1 35:00

Yeah.

Speaker 2 35:01

I mean, I feel like I'm in this 90% of the day, it's right even. Yeah, I mean so much. I'm like why are they doing something that doesn't suit me? This is about me it doesn't help me or echo everything.

Speaker 1 35:17

I've ever thought this world is about me right now, and it is so liberating.

Speaker 1 35:22

But is it just? That's the thing? Is it just about the others and they're doing things that are pissing you off? Or is it that because we truly feel like we're good at something like is it truly that I feel like I'm that good of a driver I'm a perfectionist, cause I don't think that, I don't think I'm a perfect driver and I don't like strive to not make mistakes as a driver. It doesn't fit the textbook definition of like I'm a perfectionistic driver. It's interesting, though, when the other piece of it comes out like they need to be perfect.

Speaker 2 35:56

Right, is it more pure, is it? I just really like believe in my skills as a driver and my capability here.

Speaker 2 36:05

That when I hear that that's such a connected to your self-worth space, that when I hear that that's such a connected to your self-worth space and I think inherently, when you're actually connected to your self-worth, your vibe is so open and charitable. If you see a bad driver and you feel that just genuine sense of capability in yourself, there's empathy, even like ugh. We don't make those mistakes, no-transcript. So I think anytime it's like I'm better is yeah, you're, you're, that's ego. That's not as emotion mind, yeah, not really that spacious you know what really challenges?

Speaker 1 37:02

the perfection or the perfectionistic, maybe, tendencies? Is just having children. I mean having kids it's like, yeah, you have to sit with your own discomfort. I've had to sit with my own discomfort of just like watching mistake after mistake after mistake being made when you know there's an easier way to do it or you know there's again, not a right way to do it, but it's like this.

Speaker 1 37:30

Wouldn't take so many steps if you, if my kid just did it this way and you really got to sit with that and like tolerate, like this is an important lesson, this is an important moment for them.

Speaker 2 37:39

To don't force them in a direction of this is the way you know to do it you kind of have to sit with that of watching them like make a lot of mistakes yeah, I feel like I'll unconsciously help my nieces do stuff that I probably should let them struggle with, like even getting up on the couch the little one, kelly I do it consciously with my kids.

Speaker 1 38:01

Here's how you do it, I know I should probably let them do this this way and I'm like, for time sake or for even probably just my own discomfort it.

Speaker 2 38:09

It's like just do it this way, you know. Just do it the right way. Let me pour the milk.

Speaker 1 38:15

Totally so you don't spill it.

Speaker 3 38:16

Yeah.

Speaker 1 38:17

Yeah, and it's nothing against them. They're kids, they're going to make those mistakes. It's hard, though, to sit with that sometimes.

Speaker 2 38:25

Yeah, to really let it.

Speaker 1 38:26

A lot of the time.

Speaker 2 38:27

Yeah, I'll even. It's like the little ones pushing the circle in the square toy and it's like, oh no, and you like, fix it. And you're like that's not the point of this damn toy, for, like an adult, to be like a square goes in a square. It's like so, not the point.

Speaker 1 38:44

Let me show you the right way to do this.

Speaker 2 38:46

Yeah.

Speaker 1 38:52

Because there is a right and a wrong way yeah I know and we want you to learn.

Speaker 2 38:53

It is tough what when someone comes into the group space struggling with perfectionism, where do you feel like you want to go with them?

Speaker 1 39:02

I always want to think about. It's probably serving them in some way right. So I always want to think about context. It's not a good behavior, it's not a right, so I always want to think about context. It's not a good behavior, it's not a bad behavior, and I do want to think about it in more behavior. I like to set that foundation versus. This is your personality inventory, like you just are. There's a lot less wiggle room there, so I want to loosen that up first, to be like okay let's think about this behaviorally.

Speaker 1 39:30

When these urges, these perfectionistic urges or tendencies come up, what's the behavior? Because that's something we can change and think about. So I think that's first, and then it's in a context. What's the function of this behavior? Is it that you're avoiding feelings of inadequacy? Or you're avoiding, like, the thought that nobody likes you, or it feels good to get reassurance, or it feels good when somebody says, oh, you did that perfect, yeah, all of that serves a function. And are those behaviors? Is this perfectionism, though, really moving you towards like values? Are these behaviors value? Why didn't? It's not prescriptive, I'm not saying it's not at times, it's just something to explore, yeah, and think about. So, ultimately, is the behavior taking you away from the ability to really sit with that discomfort, yeah, or those uncomfortable thoughts, or those uncomfortable emotions yeah

Speaker 1 40:23

and if you can just like sit with that a little bit longer, maybe you don't have to lean into a behavior like overworking something or, you know, maybe you can enjoy a process more. So so those are some of the things I would want somebody to lean into a little bit. Yeah, well, also validating, I'm sure, this in the context of your life, this behavior has served you. Yeah, I really want to validate that. Yeah, you came here honestly, in a way that you know, whether it be programming or your parents or you know whatever it is, can we have some compassion, that it serves you in some ways, and we want to also explore that too. Like, what has it allowed you to escape or avoid, or I don't know, maybe this was the only way you got praise, or all of those things are important.

Speaker 2 41:12

Like really honor where it may have developed and came in to protect. Yeah, and it's like, if you think about, like, teens living in a household where, like, it's a genuine, clear, concrete expectation that they be perfect in some way, whether it's their body, which I definitely run into, their homework, their whatever their sport. Yeah, it's like having a perfectionist is so protective, and in those cases I wouldn't necessarily ask someone to separate from it if it wasn't really safe.

The Complexities of Perfectionism

Speaker 2 41:49

I think you'd kind of look at like how can we take care of you, foster the relationship when you knew in that part of you? So eventually, when you're ready and it's safer, you can let go and like return more to the wise mind. You know what I'm like wondering because I'm realizing like perfectionism came up for me this week and I was like really having a strong feeling of like everyone in my life is mad at me. Like for the past like two weeks I felt that like everyone is mad at me, is that perfectionism in some way?

Speaker 1 42:23

um, do you have any evidence for that? Or are you just you're you? You haven't like. I guess what I mean by that is you haven't talked to anybody in the last two weeks and yet you still have this like intuition that people are mad at you in the world, or?

Speaker 2 42:38

it'll be more like short text responses got it, or like a friend who had to like cancel something did I contribute to this at all? No, you didn't okay, you didn't.

Speaker 1 42:50

That's my reassurance. Seeking right now yeah yeah, I'll give all that. You know why? Because I'm perfect, so my text messages were. I knew I didn't bother you this week.

Speaker 2 43:00

Um, oh, sorry, sorry. I just played footsie with john just played footsie there wait, so what would be perfectionistic about that? Well, it's like if I'm not getting these like well, okay, If I'm not getting like perfect reassurances via like an enthusiastic text message.

Speaker 1 43:25

So that's the other oriented one. You're putting that on others.

Speaker 2 43:42

They need to respond in a certain way to you with it at times Not all the time, but like moments of it. You know where I'm really like did I do something? And like reviewing in my mind and that's not really like that normal of a feeling for me. I do think the wedding is part of this, because it's like you owe people things like all the time.

Speaker 2 44:05

And like so many people are helping you, or at least us that I constantly feel kind of like I owe them something or like am I being grateful enough, like that really is coming up a lot and it's like everyone's mad at me.

Speaker 1 44:20

I don't know if I'm getting perfectionistic vibes, though.

Speaker 2 44:23

Okay, it's maybe something else. People pleasing.

Speaker 1 44:26

Maybe yeah. Which is can be related like yeah perfectly pleasing others and I think it's a highly stressful world right now to begin with, let alone planning, a wedding, and I think in those moments we can maybe feel like it's disorienting. So wanting the reassurance or wanting somebody to just send the text with the heart God damn it Like that would feel good to me right now. I need a little hug right now.

Speaker 2 44:55

Yeah, like take it easy on me, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 45:00

But I mean, that's something that I have to remind myself about, like text messages. People are busy. Yeah, people aren't thinking about it as much as you are. Yeah, it's functional. Functional the texting, it's more, it can be a function or even people just miss it and they don't have their phones on them. And yeah, that's easy for me to say when it's I'm talking to you about your experience, but when my, I get my head about it too yeah I don't think it's perfectionistic though yeah, yeah, I was thinking of it more of.

Speaker 1 45:29

Maybe it was like the again the other of like why did they respond this way, not that way? Yeah, like I would have responded this way. Yeah, maybe that would have more of a flair to it, but Well, I, mine is almost, and you're right.

Speaker 2 45:42

I don't think it is perfectionism, because I'll see the response and like, give the other person all the credit of like. This is the true, genuine response that reflects, like, the interactions we've had and it's like this is all due to like something I have or have not done, you know, if it's like, oh, I can't come to x thing, it's like they hate me no middle ground there, like no middle ground, they just or they, they don't care about me.

Speaker 1 46:08

Yeah.

Speaker 2 46:09

And it's like I'm able to get a mindful stance with that part of me at times.

Speaker 1 46:14

Kelly, you need to be seen.

Speaker 2 46:15

Definitely.

Speaker 1 46:17

I know you need to be seen.

Speaker 2 46:19

Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 1 46:20

We all do.

Speaker 2 46:21

We all do.

Speaker 1 46:23

But that harkens back to the conversations we've had years ago. Yeah, yes, that I do need to be seen and like acknowledged, and when you don't feel seen, that comes up.

Speaker 2 46:32

It like really gets me.

Speaker 3 46:35

Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 46:36

Yeah. So I think that can be a quick place of like, even like the feeling of like worthlessness can come up with that.

Speaker 2 46:46

Like, oh my God, I'm doing everything wrong. Mm-hmm, yeah, it is a tough space. Yeah, I think it is more than people pleasing zone and it's like, okay, this is probably like the worry. Part of me you know is needing something, is overburdened like almost like con, to turn inward and contact that part of me more. How does it feel when this friend cancels on me? You know, like what is really internally coming up and like be with that part of you in in various ways, like I do this in session with clients, do it with myself, like sometimes I'll meditate with that, or do like a more guided meditation, sometimes like a manifestation, meditation on, like a trigger, you know, because I do this nobody can see it because we're recording it.

Speaker 1 47:40

But I love when you say things like manifestation, because you do your show, you give a little shoulder like yeah manifestation.

Speaker 2 47:46

I know it's amazing, but yeah like because really like, yeah, manifestation.

Speaker 2 47:48

It's a saucy type of manifestation. I know it's amazing, but yeah, like, because really like the like manifestation philosophy that I'm into is more about like these, like challenges, are real opportunities for connection to your self-worth, which is the place you like manifest the things you want from. So, yeah, looking at you know, when you're challenged or kind of tested by your life, there's like room. The universe is sort of giving you a chance to really expand. So, and usually when I can get in that mindset, it is incredibly helpful.

Speaker 1 48:23

One thing that I was thinking too about this topic was because I was trying to think of the course of, like, my life and when I've leaned into that perfectionism, and then I was thinking I wonder if it hasn't had as much of an impact on me in my life, because I'm actually a bad perfectionist and what I mean by that is, I've never excelled at anything enough in a way where I felt like I have to sustain it yeah so there was never that constant this isn't fully a baked thought here but there wasn't this constant push towards perfection, because I feel like I was pretty like I don't know adequate at things, yeah, and better at some things, but never excelled necessarily I don't know, does that make sense?

Speaker 1 49:21

no, it's like oh maybe I just like I would strive for things. And then I just kind of like lost steam because I was like actually, like I'm not that good at, I can't even like sustain, like I'm just making so many mistakes here and that's frustrating. And then I just kind of like would just like let it go, or something I don't know, you know like I'm a bad perfectionist.

Speaker 2 49:38

I I resonate with that and I you know how, like you were saying, like you coach the clients not to like, identify it as a personality inventory. But more. Look at like the behavioral piece of it, Like I've never been a person where like that identifies as a perfectionist. Really, I feel on my bones. I'm like I don't think I'm a perfectionist and I think it's similar to you. I had an older brother that was like the prodigy golden child did everything Well, all the time.

Speaker 3 50:12

One and a half years older than me.

Speaker 2 50:13

I think it's like to be perfect would just be to like still live in his shadow. Probably I as a young child, I really did the opposite. Like as a young child, I remember I would get little pages of homework from school. I would just like toss them up and whatnot. Like wouldn't do them and I was getting in trouble. I remember consciously being like I don't feel like doing that, like really had the opposite of perfectionism, like yeah, very like I'm not interested. You know, I still have. I'm sure you're laughing because I have a part of me how little were you?

Speaker 2 50:47

well.

Speaker 3 50:49

I'm imagining like a tiny page, like a poly pocket.

Speaker 2 50:54

That's so funny a tiny little page, no, like a sheet a math sheet you know, I just would like, or like you know, just bury it in my folder and like and then the teacher would be like did you do your homework?

Speaker 2 51:05

and I'd just be like what homework and it's like I remember from third to fourth grade, I committed. I was like you know what I'm just like what homework. And it's like I remember I, from third to fourth grade, I committed. I was like you know what I'm done with all this crap, like I'm gonna start doing my homework because I'm getting. I remember thinking it's too embarrassing, like the shame is pretty.

Speaker 1 51:21

But did you ever want to be like really good at something?

Speaker 2 51:24

Well.

Speaker 1 51:30

I don't. I think that that that was in my wheelhouse yeah, a little bit, where it was like I did want to excel at certain things, like again getting back to like the drawing or the creativity, but because the talent wasn't there and I didn't have the patience to develop it, or the natural ability right, I didn't excel naturally, it just would fizzle or something yeah or something like that because you didn't reach the peak you

Speaker 1 51:50

almost have to taste perfection yeah, you, exactly, that's a great point. You almost have to like have the experience of it, or for some reason, I keep thinking of just like natural ability, where it's like it just comes naturally in my mind, where it was like, oh man, like I could really ramp this up and like get more feedback, or people really like love this, or I don't know.

Speaker 2 52:13

Yeah, no, I think you're right. I do think you have to have opportunities for perfection like taste, perfection.

Speaker 2 52:20

But I also think that has to be coupled with like attention for that, like special attention, Because I think kids need for specialness is really the core need there. And I think in my case being good at school or almost anything sports, music, art my brother was good at all of that. To be good and to be good at some of that stuff is questionable in general, but for me to be unique, I almost had to be not good. Not good you know to like stand out and be seen.

Speaker 2 52:53

That was the unique mold, because the other mold was already taken, and so you went yeah, and I was incredibly like dramatic and emotional, which he wasn't, and I think some of that probably was a need. I still am.

Speaker 3 53:07

A little dramatic.

Speaker 2 53:08

A little dramatic emotional nutcasecase we don't know yeah, but yeah, like I do think and I think when I finally got more separation from my brother, I did excel more at stuff and I was kind of like that makes sense some of this stuff you know and like, and I only do things I'm interested in doing as you know to a fault and it's like sometimes I'll stumble into where I'm like, hey, I got a knack for this a little bit and I'm also luckily interested in it and those things like combine, and then I feel a lot of like excellence in certain places.

Speaker 1 53:41

You know what drives people nuts when I'm doing this group with them or like this topic yeah yeah, sometimes because we have those whiteboards in the group space sometimes yeah, just I on purpose misspell words I love that and more often than not they're like are you the straight face? Are you doing this on purpose, like they're. They're really pissed off and I'm like well, kind of yeah like what, let's just do a little experiential here. Like, yeah, what is your urge right now? Is it to come up here and fix this?

Speaker 2 54:14

Yeah.

Speaker 1 54:15

And like I'm not going to write it like that on my paper, it's like I'm not telling you to write it on your notes. It's just so interesting, even that reaction of like, totally Like I can't look at it.

Categorizing Perfectionism: Self vs. Others

Speaker 2 54:25

You, the word, it's like I know he's been yeah yeah, yeah, sometimes I I will get that very resistant to even like the conversation. Yeah, it can be such a like really intense part of someone. Yeah, to even see something misspelled.

Speaker 1 54:40

It's like oh yeah we solved it again and we definitely solved it. I hope all of you out there we're just left with so many more questions than answers.

Speaker 2 54:52

Yeah.

Speaker 1 54:54

It's a good topic, though. Yeah, it's always going to be in the therapy space, oh yeah.

Speaker 2 54:59

Yeah, and it shows up so many places, yeah, yeah. And with the eating stuff, the body image stuff, like letting your body be imperfect, can be really tough in this day and age, especially where, like everything else is telling you you don't like this part of your body, fix it, change it yeah take ozempic, get plastic surgery, you know well, and the comparison piece comes up so hard in this topic too, like when talking to people like yeah what feeds it.

Speaker 1 55:32

It's the comparison, it's the I could be better. Look what this person did. I could do better than that. I could be, you know, more educated I could be prettier whatever it is I could be thinner, I, it's. The comparison feeds it so much too, yeah, and there's always something to compare it to with social media or you know. There's so much out there that you can just consume. That will feed this and ramp it up.

Speaker 2 55:59

Yeah, so yeah, a lot of, even, that is, even some practical pieces of like limit that social media use as much as humanly possible, because getting away from images of perfection can really help people. And getting out of your even looking at yourself, get out in the world, what is it? Get out of your head and into your life.

Speaker 1 56:25

Oh, is that yeah.

Speaker 2 56:29

Get out of your head.

Speaker 1 56:33

And get into my car, and into my car.

Speaker 2 56:36

Is that what that is? I mean really that works.

Speaker 1 56:39

Or was that? For some reason? I thought it was like Jon Kabat-Zinn or something like that Get out of your no.

Speaker 2 56:44

Maybe it is. It's not like Russ Harris. I'm going to look that up right now.

Speaker 1 56:47

Get out of your head and it is.

Speaker 2 56:51

I'm going to look that up, right now Get out of your head and into my car.

Speaker 1 56:55

And into my car. Is that what it was? Who sings that? Who does sing that song?

Speaker 2 57:00

Yeah, good question, is it Huey?

Speaker 1 57:01

Lewis and the News I wish it's definitely not Every song I don't know is by them. I wish I love Huey Lewis and the.

Speaker 3 57:09

News yeah, they're great, so great, get Out of your Head.

Speaker 1 57:12

Is that just what it's called?

Speaker 2 57:15

That's the refrain oh, Get Into your.

Speaker 1 57:16

Life Is that.

Speaker 2 57:18

Get Out of your.

Speaker 1 57:19

Oh yeah. So Stephen Hayes wrote Get Out of your Mind and Into your Life.

Speaker 2 57:24

Get Out of your.

Speaker 1 57:24

Mind.

Speaker 2 57:30

The new acceptance and commitment therapy book by Stephen Get out of your mind and into your life. It's great, great stuff. I was hearing on another podcast they were talking about how, like, they love titles of books that, like, are so good you don't even have to read the book. Get out of your mind and into your life. So we're like.

Speaker 1 57:45

I don't need to read that.

Speaker 2 57:46

There was one where it was like really don't need to read. Yeah need to read that. There was one where it's like really, don't need to read.

Speaker 1 57:58

Yeah, now I know. Or he's like feel the fear, do it anyway.

Speaker 2 58:00

It's like thank you, and uh, to answer your question, it's billy ocean, billy ocean, billy ocean 1988. That's an incredible name, do you think?

Speaker 1 58:03

it's a. He also sang uh, caribbean queen. That was another popular song by billy. Where's does it go? I'm not going to sing it on the cast but, check it out. It's out there, get out of my head.

Speaker 3 58:17

Mind.

Speaker 2 58:19

No, I think the song is Get Out of my Head.

Speaker 1 58:22

Is it? Get Out of my Dreams, get into my car? Oh, it's Get Out of my Dreams.

Speaker 3 58:26

Get Out of my Dreams, yeah.

Speaker 2 58:29

We are so far. We are so far.

Speaker 1 58:31

We're very far. Yeah, let's get out of my dreams, get into my car.

Speaker 2 58:35

That's what it is. That's right, that's right.

Speaker 1 58:37

Do you think he wrote?

Speaker 2 58:38

that.

Speaker 3 58:41

It might have been the other guy. Somebody wrote that it might have been Stephen Hayes.

Speaker 1 58:44

It might have been Stephen Hayes, before I actually came about.

Speaker 2 58:48

He tried to be like a pop ghost writer. Oh my.

Speaker 1 58:52

God, that's too funny. Well, maybe this takes us to our how wise is it?

Speaker 2 58:57

Yeah, we have a goofy one today. It's a great one, though it's great.

Speaker 1 59:00

So I was sitting at what felt like a very long stoplight and I had this come to me because of what was sitting in front of me.

Speaker 2 59:16

But the idea is, how wise is it to have bumper stickers?

Speaker 1 59:17

yeah, yeah, I mean, it's an interesting question and you're a new car owner as well, which is another thing that I thought of. Right, didn't you just get a new car?

Speaker 2 59:24

so, yeah, it's still on its way to us Four weeks minimum.

Speaker 3 59:32

Yeah, it's like the long journey.

Speaker 1 59:32

I sent Josh and Kelly the picture of the car I was sitting behind because the bumper sticker in front of me said driver picks the music, shotgun shuts his cake wall. I mean ludicrous. So it just occurred to me like is it wise to like put that that specific bumper it's very wise it just so.

Speaker 3 59:59

What does that?

Speaker 1 1:00:00

mean it just made me think of um any bumper sticker. But yes, I mean, like is it wise to put, I mean it, a blank canvas? Obviously, yeah, right, yeah.

Speaker 2 1:00:12

Well, maybe I like this question, starting with almost like what's the point of one?

Speaker 3 1:00:17

I think that one's telegraphing. I'm an asshole. Yeah, I'm aware of it, and it's kind of funny. Hey, I'm an asshole, yeah, but it's fine and you'll be fine with it, but is it?

Speaker 1 1:00:29

hard to figure out irony when it comes to bumper stickers, because you don't know the person. Yeah, right so it could be ironic.

Speaker 2 1:00:39

Yeah, there's something about it that it's like really kind of in your face. Yeah, it's like here's me and you better just take it yeah you know like, because I'm in my car and we can't have a dialogue about this? Yeah like this is just me and you're gonna deal with it.

Speaker 1 1:00:57

Yeah, I think there's also an assumption there that people care right, exactly, I mean, that's really the question so it's like what possesses you to think someone cares you?

Speaker 1 1:01:06

know there's like is it wise? And maybe that's your platform. You don't have many platforms, but you have the back of your car. It's so sad. Just get out of my dreams and get out of my bumper sticker. But no another one I was saying that I saw was like somebody had a bumper sticker that said silly goose on board. Is that wise? Silly goose on board, oh Ouch, Is that?

Speaker 3 1:01:32

wise.

Speaker 2 1:01:34

Silly little goose on board.

Speaker 1 1:01:34

How wise is it to have a silly goose bumper sticker?

Speaker 2 1:01:40

It's like who's in there?

Speaker 1 1:01:42

Yeah.

Speaker 2 1:01:43

It's like Like. It's like Steve from Blue's Clues drives that car Right Like what I just I don't it?

Speaker 1 1:01:52

just it struck me as yeah, maybe it's not a wisdom question, maybe it's not a wise mind question, it's just funny.

Speaker 2 1:01:59

Yeah Well, because there are there's so many kinds of bumpers.

Speaker 3 1:02:02

You know what I do get a chuckle out of for some reason.

Speaker 1 1:02:05

And this isn't this isn't new by any means, but I do, and I'm going to be vulnerable here. I don't have any bumper stickers. That's choice, and I'm not judging anybody's choices. I just don't.

Speaker 2 1:02:17

I'm going to prove who I am.

Speaker 1 1:02:19

That's my authentic self. Yeah, I do. You know how people will put like the 26.2 on their car oh my God, for like they've run a marathon, yeah. And then some people have like 100 and something cause they've done an ultra marathon. I do kind of chuckle when somebody has a 0.0 on their car.

Speaker 2 1:02:39

Yeah, it is funny, cause they're calling out everyone with the other. I just think that's funny. Yeah, that is funny.

Speaker 1 1:02:49

Maybe that's the wisest bumper sticker I would be offended by it if I ran marathons or something like that. But I just think that's like kind of like I'm using my bumper sticker to call you out.

Speaker 2 1:03:00

Yeah, and your bumper sticker To be like who gives a shit about your marathon? Yeah, I know, I think funny ones that are actually funny are good, like that's a service to humanity, to people sitting in traffic.

Speaker 3 1:03:15

Yeah.

Speaker 1 1:03:16

And then it's like and then I saw one driving the other day to work that said honk if you're anxious right, or honk if you're nervous right now.

Speaker 3 1:03:24

Hmm.

Speaker 1 1:03:25

And it was like okay.

Speaker 2 1:03:27

Yeah, See there's ones like that where you're like. Is this?

Speaker 1 1:03:30

I'm nervous sometimes yeah. I'll honk, I'll get behind that nervous sometimes.

Speaker 2 1:03:36

Yeah, I'll get behind that.

Speaker 1 1:03:37

But then it's like is the meta text like, then everyone's gonna be honking and everyone's gonna be more nervous and it's like sure I mean, I didn't honk, but I was like yeah, I can get behind that one, I guess yeah, somebody had one I know, but somebody had one that said which this is a quote. It didn't have it in quotes and it didn't um have where it came from, but it said it just said calmer than you are, dude, which is from the big lobowski, calmer than you are, which is funny, because that person, maybe that person is calmer than me right now yeah, you know it's just funny in in because it brings up driving can be so anxiety provoking for people that it's right

Speaker 2 1:04:11

like calmer than you are yeah, well, that's the other thing. How safe is it to be reading someone's car on the road?

Speaker 1 1:04:18

Yeah, and I think safety is a real something to consider, depending on what you're putting on your bumper sticker as well.

Speaker 2 1:04:25

Yeah, yeah, well, yeah, some people are going to ram you with certain bumper stickers Like if you put baby on board. Yeah, maybe that's probably the most popular one that exists.

Speaker 1 1:04:38

What do?

Speaker 2 1:04:39

we think about baby on board.

Speaker 1 1:04:41

So I've heard different things about that. I heard that somebody that's crazy, you might get rammed.

Speaker 3 1:04:50

Yeah.

Speaker 1 1:04:51

I don't know if this is true or not, but and maybe this is common knowledge but people have those so that if there was ever a huge accident, so that the people who are coming to rescue you, or if there's like a Jaws of Life incident, so that they don't miss a small baby in the car.

Speaker 1 1:05:11

Wow, I've never heard that yeah, that was what somebody told me once, that the idea of like you might miss like uh you know you're looking for adult passengers or just you, you know, in a crisis or something like this, like make sure to check or right something like that, or a baby could have come out of a car seat, or I don't know something like that yeah, well, if it's functional in that way, yeah I always thought it was just I just went to a place of thinking it was like they're announcing that they have a child totally so.

Speaker 2 1:05:41

That was like be careful around me. It's like we should be careful on everyone right.

Speaker 1 1:05:45

So that was that's where my mind always went with it.

Speaker 2 1:05:47

I was like, oh, you're announcing you have a child, yeah, but well, it's also like the most dangerous drivers on the road are often like angry people Like what are those people going to think about? Baby on board.

Speaker 1 1:06:02

You're going to be like go fuck yourself.

Speaker 2 1:06:08

Baby karate, I remember that you remember that Like an inside joke from a million years ago. Yeah, baby karate, what's that?

Speaker 3 1:06:17

Yeah, we might have to sell you off mike. Okay, we have to edit this off the pot. That sucks, I like that can we keep it?

Speaker 1 1:06:26

yeah yeah, um, it's fine. Yeah, I don't know. I just I I guess for me it's it's not wise, I I think it opens me up to too much, maybe ridicule or maybe I'm just not that I'm passionate about things, but that's just not my platform is to put it on the back of my car.

Speaker 2 1:06:45

Yeah me neither, just not my platform. Unless, I run a marathon one day.

Speaker 1 1:06:50

And I think I would just be in my head about well God, what if I change my mind? This is going to be a bear to get off.

Speaker 3 1:06:56

You could peel it off.

Speaker 2 1:06:57

No, I know but I just feel like it would just be like.

Speaker 1 1:06:59

God, that would suck.

Speaker 2 1:07:00

I'm standing out in the cold.

Speaker 3 1:07:01

Yeah, Mike gets stuck on there. Josh is pretty good at doing that In.

Speaker 1 1:07:03

Chicago trying to scrape that shit off.

Speaker 3 1:07:05

Scraping things off, you are.

Speaker 2 1:07:08

Yeah, I am.

Speaker 1 1:07:18

You have a strong grip scraping. Yeah, if you guys had to put a bumper sticker on yeah, baby, on board, baby. But like where's the baby?

Speaker 3 1:07:22

but like in french, exactly like baby on board, baby elegant, I think I would probably go like uh, I don't know.

Speaker 1 1:07:35

I see, now I feel like I would just get judged for this too. I feel like I would just do I don't know an NPR one, or maybe. I love that, if I really liked a radio station that I was really behind. Maybe I would just put there the call number or whatever it's called.

Speaker 2 1:07:54

Yeah, something like group.

Speaker 1 1:07:56

Not a group, but just like the radio station or something like in support of it.

Speaker 2 1:08:00

But I don't know. Yeah, that's not a bad idea, it's like a safe zone. I mean, we could put wise mind happy hour that could be a bumper sticker.

Speaker 1 1:08:07

Yeah, sure, I mean a lot of people put well, maybe it's different, but you know a lot of people have their schools yeah you know the name of their school or their license plate holders like the name of your school well now I'm like, should I put our sticker? What would you put I?

Speaker 2 1:08:24

like always, like that um. Take natan quote no mud, no lotus oh yeah, no mud, no lotus um which yeah?

Speaker 1 1:08:34

That'd be a good one.

Speaker 2 1:08:35

Yeah, kind of that Buddhist like through challenge yeah.

Speaker 3 1:08:39

I thought you were saying the sticker was the mud. In order to get a, sometimes you gotta get a little muddy. Put the sticker on to catch the lotus People listening to the podcast.

Speaker 2 1:08:53

Oh, like I'm saying like hey, we should be in favor of bumper stickers no mud, no lotus, no mud no lotus.

Speaker 3 1:08:59

A lotus is a flower though. Yeah, I always want to think it's like a grasshopper, oh Wow.

Speaker 2 1:09:04

Yeah, it is a flower, yeah.

Speaker 1 1:09:09

What would you have, Josh? What kind of bumper sticker?

Speaker 3 1:09:13

Well, can I say the bumper sticker that we saw, or is that too, it's a family program. I mean we dropped the F-bomb. Yeah, I think something really funny that I see that wouldn't be this other bumper sticker that I'm not going to talk about.

Speaker 1 1:09:32

You would want yours to be funny.

Speaker 3 1:09:33

I think something funny and I'd see it in a store. Well, I never thought I'd get a bumper sticker, but I have to get this.

Speaker 1 1:09:39

But a very random. I think it would have to be pretty random, it would have to take me off guard. There would have to be shock value, that's fair.

Speaker 2 1:09:49

Yeah, I think that's pretty good.

Speaker 3 1:09:52

Yeah. Like my other car is covered in.

Speaker 2 1:09:56

Blank, which we've seen twice. That's pretty good, yeah, yeah, like my other car is covered in blank.

Perfectionism in Creativity and Daily Life

Speaker 3 1:09:59

Blank, which we've seen twice in our neighborhood.

Speaker 1 1:10:01

You've seen twice.

Speaker 2 1:10:02

The word isn't blank, it's a neighbor. Yes, you know, we live in a cool neighborhood.

Speaker 1 1:10:06

That's great.

Speaker 2 1:10:07

Pretty alternative. People are funny.

Speaker 1 1:10:10

I mean, as we're noticing with all these questions, maybe it's wise for you, right, yeah, not you, but maybe it's wise for you to you know, live your life, put your sticker.

Speaker 3 1:10:20

You're a little.

Speaker 1 1:10:21

Maybe you're debating it.

Speaker 3 1:10:22

Maybe it's not wise.

Speaker 1 1:10:24

Maybe bumper stickers aren't that wise. I don't know, Maybe that's good for you. How wise is it?

Speaker 2 1:10:28

Not so much. I think it's the move.

Speaker 1 1:10:38

That's not the move, it's not the platform.

Speaker 2 1:10:40

But also, I can accept someone. How about that? I can accept someone who does it and I won't resist them. Yeah, but I will maybe have thoughts like Right, there's probably a better way.

Speaker 1 1:10:51

It's like where do you even like buy a bumper sticker?

Speaker 2 1:10:54

Good question, amazon yeah.

Speaker 1 1:10:57

Well, for sure, amazon, but it's like you don't just like see them in a store. Maybe, you got to go to like an auto store, like an auto parts store you go to like a gas station on a road trip, oh yeah, there you go.

Speaker 2 1:11:08

Something like that. Where you spin and they have, like Amy, sarah, like places that have, like you know, like all these different names and stuff.

Speaker 1 1:11:18

Right, it's just like who's making these?

Speaker 2 1:11:22

Is it like one company that has a monopoly?

Speaker 1 1:11:24

It's like one little old lady and people just submit it and they just print them out.

Speaker 2 1:11:27

Yeah, yeah, and they're running the world.

Speaker 1 1:11:33

Yeah, it's wild. Now I feel like I've primed my brain to be looking for them. Yeah, because I feel like I wasn't even paying attention at all to them. Like you'd see one every once in a while. Now I feel like every car has one.

Speaker 2 1:11:45

Yeah.

Speaker 1 1:11:46

After I sent you guys that text and was like hey, what about, what do you think of this? And you liked it, I was like oh, now I'm seeing them everywhere. But the silly goose one was great Silly goose.

Speaker 3 1:12:00

On board.

Speaker 1 1:12:02

Get on board with your silly goose, silly goose on board.

Speaker 2 1:12:05

Yeah, it's like some suburban dad, city adjacent dad, I know.

Speaker 1 1:12:14

Who's the silly?

Speaker 3 1:12:15

goose. I'm so curious Is it the parent? I know who's the silly goose?

Speaker 1 1:12:16

Yeah, I'm so curious. Is it the parent? Is it the driver?

Speaker 3 1:12:19

Is it the?

Speaker 1 1:12:20

child. Is it a goose? Does the child? Is it a goose?

Speaker 3 1:12:23

Is it a?

Speaker 1 1:12:23

golden goose. Does the child know?

Speaker 2 1:12:27

Yeah, what child? What age is the child?

Speaker 1 1:12:30

going to look at that proper sticker and really question am I a silly goose am?

Speaker 2 1:12:37

I are you have.

Speaker 1 1:12:39

I always been.

Speaker 3 1:12:42

I'm adopted.

Speaker 1 1:12:44

Why didn't you tell me sooner? Why did I have to read it on the back of our car?

Speaker 2 1:12:50

it's so good now I almost think they're wise if your bumper sticker says I'm a silly goose, no, no, no, silly goose on board.

Speaker 1 1:12:55

Think they're wise if your sticker says I'm a silly goose. No, no, no, silly goose on board I mean it's, we're talking about it this much conversation we're talking about it this much that it worked yeah it worked, yeah, so it's wise well, this has been wise, yeah, this has been lovely always youtube silly goose says it's great to pod with you. It's always great to pod. Um yeah, what are you? What are we plugging?

Speaker 2 1:13:21

Plugging I'll plug myself, as I usually do, do it always. Yeah, I'm Kelly Kilgallen. Um, if you want to learn more about me, um, you want to work with me. You can find me at my website, kkpsychotherapycom. And yeah, you can shoot me an inquiry there on the contact page. But yeah, I have a private practice here in Chicago.

Speaker 1 1:13:46

Yeah, so that's me anything you want to plug, john well, people can always reach me at my email address, so my last name butts butzjonathan j-o-n-a-T-H-A-N at Gmail. And then, yeah, I'll be seeing people next Friday because I have a speaking engagement which is fun.

Speaker 2 1:14:04

Yeah, tell us about it a little.

Speaker 1 1:14:06

It's pretty much just an act and acceptance and commitment therapy intro. So I'm going to be kind of covering the six points of that hexaflex. So we're going to be talking about a bunch of those processes cool and then doing a few experientials and hopefully also do this kind of life map exercise that timothy gordon I'm taking it kind of a little bit from timothy gordon, but yeah, it's going to be at the northern illinois employee assistance professionals association.

Speaker 3 1:14:35

So okay, it's one of their chapter meetings, so I'm going to do that.

Speaker 1 1:14:39

I love that. I know I'm excited to meet some people, talk about the pod and spread the word on ACT.

Speaker 2 1:14:46

Yeah, spread the good word.

Speaker 1 1:14:49

All right, until next time.

Speaker 2 1:14:50

Yeah, and thanks to Josh, our producer, who joined us, which is so fun. Maybe he'll join us on our little how Is this? It segments Absolutely.

Speaker 1 1:14:59

And Blanketforts, and Blanketforts for the music and Jake Butts for the artwork Merch.

Speaker 2 1:15:06

Artwork, stickers, bumper, stickers, bumper stickers Maybe. Yeah, silly geese, silly, geese, silly goose bumper stickers Silly geese, silly geese, silly goose bumper stickers.

Speaker 3 1:15:15

I love it. Yeah, that'll be our next bumper sticker.

Speaker 2 1:15:17

Thank you, Jake, and yeah, we'll see you next time. We'll hear. You'll hear us next time.

Speaker 1 1:15:23

You'll hear us next time, and that's how that goes, take care everyone.

Speaker 3 1:15:26

Okay, thanks everyone, bye, bye.

Speaker 2 1:15:31

The Wise Mind Happy Hour podcast is for entertainment purposes only, not to be treated as medical advice. No-transcript.