The Wise Mind Happy Hour
Two therapists musing about the idea of an inner wise mind and how to connect with this psychic space in different contexts.
The Wise Mind Happy Hour
The Wise World of Acceptance
Acceptance might be one of the most misunderstood concepts in mental health. When we suggest "accepting" difficult emotions or challenging circumstances, many people hear "just be okay with it" or "give up and stop trying to change things." This profound misinterpretation keeps countless people stuck in cycles of resistance that ultimately increase suffering.
What might become possible for you if you could open to what is, rather than exhausting yourself fighting against reality? We explore this (and more) on our latest episode of "Wise Mind Happy Hour."
- music by blanket forts -
Welcome to the wise mind happy hour.
Speaker 2:I'm Kelly and I'm john.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're going to talk today a little bit about acceptance, all the different kind of associations we all have with that, and clarify the term a little bit, at least in our usage of it. But first maybe we'll check in. We'll just check in with each other.
Speaker 2:We will check in, yeah.
Speaker 1:What's been going on with you lately, John?
Speaker 2:Same old. It's all family. It's all family. Yeah, which is good? Yeah, it's good. Family is good.
Speaker 1:As you rub your temples. Family is good, Family is place.
Speaker 2:Go to my happy place. No, it's been basketball and after school activities and a lot of things like that. We actually took the kids tubing, which was fun.
Speaker 1:In the winter.
Speaker 2:Yes, winter tubing, because we're in that season.
Speaker 1:Wait yeah.
Speaker 2:Explain.
Speaker 1:Explain. Explain what what tubing is On the link.
Speaker 2:I'm not sure what's happening, right now.
Speaker 1:I thought you had to be in a swimsuit.
Speaker 2:Oh, no Tubing like snow. Oh in the snow, In the snow yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, I didn't really know, there was snow tubing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like a form of sledding, it is, but you're using an inner tube instead, um, which is fun.
Speaker 1:so we did that recently, which is cool because it was at a ski hill. Is it better to use an inner tube? Is it more comfortable?
Speaker 2:I think it is okay I think an inner tube has more padding if you're using like a straight toboggan yeah there's usually not much pad it's just kind of like wood and you're hitting like every rock. But we went to a place that was actually a ski hill and then they have a dedicated hill for tubing, so they have the lanes for you, and then the best part about it is they have a like conveyor belt that takes you back up the hill oh, I know nice so that's like a game changer for kids because you can go down so many more times and they don't get tired because of the.
Speaker 2:I know.
Speaker 1:So you stepped here.
Speaker 2:So you just put it's literally like you're at the airport.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like an escalator.
Speaker 2:Like an escalator and but there's no stairs.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It just takes you right up with your inner tube.
Speaker 1:That's so fun. I know it was great I love that, and you actually did it.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, Are you kidding?
Speaker 1:I don't know if it was like no adults allowed.
Speaker 2:Oh no, adults are encouraged, and it was in Wisconsin, so it was like people that don't even wear like snow pants, they're just wearing straight like Wrangler jeans.
Speaker 1:They're like lace-up boots. Yeah, it was awesome, nice yeah.
Speaker 2:So we did that recently. I'm trying to think, yeah, I gave a speech recently, or a lecture.
Speaker 1:I gave a talk. Tell us what that was about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it was really an overview of just acceptance and commitment therapy, talking about like how we develop more psychological flexibility, so really just being open, more flexible with our you know, private events, our pain, like our thoughts and our emotions, and then the behaviors that we engage in to try to escape those things in certain contexts. And then I took them through kind of like an experiential life map exercise, which is like a 20 minute exercise you could do with anybody, and then it actually hits all six parts of the hexaflex which is like the psychological flexibility model, but I don't want to get too nuts and bolts about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, great group of people, it was fun. They like really were engaged, so it was nice that's great.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. I mean, god, nothing like giving a presentation to people that are open to it.
Speaker 2:They were open to it.
Speaker 1:That's great.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Love that.
Speaker 2:So that was nice to do. Yeah, outside of the day in and day out, nice Made me feel important.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you are.
Speaker 2:It makes you feel like you know it. Tell me more.
Speaker 1:I am.
Speaker 2:No, it makes you feel like you. I don't know about you. Maybe I've mentioned this before, but sometimes I like question, like maybe. I don't know enough. I need to read another book.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I need to. Consume another.
Speaker 2:I need to consume another continuing education. Yeah. And I think that's useful. As a clinician, we always want to consume information, but I think it comes from like a doubt place, that it's like I still don't know enough.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think it can be like affirming to go and present material for me personally to then say, no, I do. I don't know everything by any means and I would never will, but I know something you know that I can contribute?
Speaker 1:yeah, which is nice.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I know, it's like there's nothing like doing something like that to realize, like I do know what I'm talking about or I have experience yeah, yeah, you know yeah, because sometimes I feel like still, for some reason, I don't have a lot of experience I know like maybe that do you ever feel that?
Speaker 1:way. I definitely feel that way. It's like I vacillate between both, because it's like I feel like I'll meet newer therapists and I'm like, oh, this is what actually not having experience looks like that's a good point of reference, like right and like not even in a bad way, not even in a way of like they shouldn't be out there, like more like oh, I forgot how like nervous and how, how uncertain and how you try to like prepare and all this stuff and how.
Speaker 1:Now it's like, oh, the experience I have, like sometimes what's funny to me about therapy experience or at least like in the kind of therapy I do now, that individual work it's like experience, like almost looks like there's less dressing on it. You know, it's like you walk in and you're a lot emptier and more open and more like listening and more like going with the flow. And I think, at least when I was like younger and I get caught in this sometimes and this is kind of related to our topic today but trying to control it, you know, trying to like you were trying to make interventions at every like totally moment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, trying to make sense good enough.
Speaker 1:A lot of the time like that part of me would come up and I think the experience a lot of times is like it almost can look. It's so funny, it's like therapy with someone really experienced. Probably almost like looks like less professional in some ways like more organic yeah where it's like you're really just listening and going with and like I've even had to say to myself, like often like a healing, helpful mechanism from the therapist or like through the therapist, like to the system of the client is like one thing you say.
Speaker 1:That's like a light bulb and in my own therapy that's so true where it's like, it's often like one thing I'll take back from a session that is like really moving to me or really enlightening or whatever.
Speaker 2:so it's like yeah, there's this urge to almost like perform yeah, therapy as a therapist, oh completely like I gotta present.
Speaker 1:I have to perform a certain way to show this person that I'm a therapist and I know what I'm doing yeah, yeah, I'm like good enough, I'm a healer, I'm like yeah I have so much of that yeah and sometimes it's like just slow down and be with this person I like that go a little bit yeah, like I will say, emdr has helped me with that too, because with emdr it's almost comical how little you say in the session to the point where you're kind of like do less like really you just have they do so much of it in the bilateral and then you ask them like notice for me what came up notice for me. What's in the go internal? What notice and notice?
Speaker 1:and notice and then once they tell you you're not even supposed to shape it in any way, it's like, okay, I want to stay with that, go back in, stay with that, go back in and really, like you want them to morph the memory, not you, okay because if they do it, you're getting paid for this and I'm I'm kidding big ducks for this huge well the, the art of it, or like the professionalism of it is you would know I'm, I don't know anything.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is like depending on what they notice, you have to cue them to different parts of like their original memory that you kind of like set up and you have them like picture it and do certain ways of accessing the memory without going all the way into it, and so you'll know. There's like a process of like what you follow, and the therapist has to be listening really well to know. Okay, go here now okay and now. Go here and now, as you move, hold this in mind wait, how?
Speaker 2:how far are you, or are you done with your training? I have one more week, wow congrats yeah, I know it's exciting wait and what else has been happening with you.
Speaker 1:I didn't get to, oh yeah, so josh and I went to the big sky documentary film festival for one of josh's films. This film, called out here, is a short film that was selected by the festival um that's incredible it was so cool.
Speaker 1:I I mean, I was like so I was starstruck by you, josh. It was like the coolest thing ever to like be with you at this thing where, like everyone's like into the movie and the audience, like like your audience was like so into it and asking great questions afterward and we were with the star of the film. Who's this? It's a documentary about homelessness and this social workers followed in the doc and his work with like going to encampments and and helping find housing for the people there. And it's amazing this doc I have to just like brag about it for a second because you know they talked about like homelessness is an issue or like the unhoused, the housing crisis. It's like a tough issue for people to stay engaged with. Like seeing tent encampments, seeing homeless people. A lot of people like feel this urge to look away and the doc by finding this really charismatic social worker. Shout out to Mark who's the best he came with us on our trip Mark Sawyer Mark.
Speaker 1:Sawyer. He's so great.
Speaker 1:He works in Sacramento Like by focusing, by choosing as a creative team to focus on him, and he's so charming and he brings such a lightness to his work and such fun to it, lightness to his work and such fun to it and such like love to it that it's so easy to stay engaged with the issue itself in the short film. And it's 20 minutes. It's just short, but I think that is like a miraculous feat to do to, to choose like the way, the creative vision to make it so that people don't want to look away from this like very important thing yeah and even like he had such like hopeful ways of like.
Speaker 1:There's a point in it where, you know, they ask me like can this be solved? And he's just like. I just don't know if we should even try to frame it that way right you know, like maybe it's something that we we just it's an issue and we we come in and we work and we help and we care and like let go of a solution talk about a wise take on it incredibly wise right by someone who's in there, right, you know, every day and and he works.
Speaker 1:He's embedded in the police department, he works with the police, but he's like I don't carry a badge, I don't carry a gun, I you know, I I'm there to help do you think that question from people comes from their own discomfort of like?
Speaker 2:there has to be an answer to this yeah, I think so I totally, and when there isn't an answer, then they bail on it.
Speaker 1:Yeah it's like, oh, and I've even been there where it's like this just feels totally unsolvable and it gave me such a hope to think, you know, maybe there's another way to see it. And so many issues are like that, like, is this, is solving this even the right way to think of it? Is it even?
Speaker 2:accurate. No, that's a great way to step back from it. And we're not asking not the right question, but that's not a question let's engage with.
Speaker 1:Yeah, maybe, yeah, totally.
Speaker 2:Because it might make you so stuck if that's your goal.
Speaker 4:Wait, josh, are you mic'd up? I'm like did you? What was it?
Speaker 1:like being in the spotlight I wasn't in the spotlight oh, you weren't oh, okay there was actually there was so many filmmakers, the director went off and the producer and mark sawyer, of course, the social got it.
Speaker 4:So I was in the audience, I got a shout out from the director. Yeah, I got to like talk to some other filmmakers who liked the movie and that's obviously fun to hear and talk to them about their movies. But yeah, this is really the first major film festival I've been to where my work was shown. I got into south by southwest in 2020 for console. I always say around council wars, council wars about video games and yeah, so good that seth rogan produced.
Speaker 1:Shout out, shout out shout out to seth rogan, who I never met.
Speaker 4:But uh, covid happened and I didn't get to go and I've been, I've gotten in some other small film festivals where you kind of show up and you see the movie and you leave and like that's cool. But we really got. It was a very social weekend and we really got to like meet a lot of other creat creators.
Speaker 2:Creatives. That's really cool.
Speaker 3:In my mind. I'm picturing you. It was great going with Kelly. I'm picturing you on a panel.
Speaker 4:That's what I was picturing.
Speaker 2:I've been on a panel, but not this time, okay.
Speaker 1:This was like a whole weekend where there were tons of events. We went to where you would like meet other filmmakers. And actually we saw a bunch of other movies. That's really cool. We saw one feature called secret mall apartment. Whenever this is able to stream a run, don't walk to see this movie. Secret mall apartment yeah, it's about these, like RISD students in the nineties who as like a demonstration against Rhode Island school of design.
Speaker 1:Rhode Island school of design, yes, as a demonstration against, like, the gentrification that was happening in this mall. This huge mall was involved in it. It was this mall built in Providence, rhode Island, where the mall was like it displaced a bunch of like affordable housing and then they made the side that had the more affordable housing still left. On the other side they made them also, so there were zero like entrances even on that side. Oh wow, where it was like completely walling out this like lower middle income community. So these art students like built an apartment, a secret apartment, in this mall and lived in it on and off for four years. Wow.
Speaker 1:It is so funny. It's so like charming and weird where do you find this, so we don't know where you can stream it. Okay, it's the crazy, it's so good because the doc.
Speaker 4:Industry is broken yeah uh, my career is broken uh I'm not well.
Speaker 1:We were saying that a movie this good it didn't actually sell right away. They had to self-release at first and then it got selected for some film festivals. But to me it was like one of the most entertaining documentaries I've ever seen. And I'm not the person who like watches tons of docs like I love josh and I watch his docs and he's helped me get into it more but like I watch cult docs and that's like it yes cult docs.
Speaker 1:In this Secret Mall apartment. I was like you're laughing, you're crying. The characters are so funny and weird. They're art students. They're art students at the top of their game.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Doing this weird project In the early 2000s To make art into life into life, into art demonstration. So good, oh my God. I wanted to meet the people. They weren't there, the people who made that, doc. God, it was so good.
Speaker 2:I'm going to have to. You have to when we find it.
Speaker 1:I will. I will tell you where to watch it. But yeah, there were so many good movies. There was one about like the kangaroo, like hunting industry. That was really interesting called chasing rue.
Speaker 4:When we met the that's the director of that movie, sky fitzgerald shout out sky fitzgerald um my new bud yeah, told me I should be drinking whiskey instead of beer, and he was right, so I then had some whiskey, so talk about wisdom.
Speaker 1:That is wisdom very wise, wise man, yeah, but it was so fun and we was in montana, so like we'd never been to montana. Yeah, I'm like I'm kind man, yeah, but it was so fun and we was in Montana, so we'd never been to Montana. Yeah, I'm kind of still glowing from it. It was so fun and meeting all those people we met this couple who met each other working on Mad Men.
Speaker 4:Really.
Speaker 1:Which is so cool. The wife did costume design and the husband did production design and they made a documentary about her father production design and they made a documentary about her father. Her mom, who's the man's ex-wife, asked her daughter to make a documentary about her father so she could like learn more about him and understand him, because they got divorced and there was all this turmoil and the mom was like I want you to make a documentary about dad and she was just kind of like okay, and she did it, which is crazy. The mom was a documentarian herself. She made a documentary about like the ivory coast and like the slavery still going on there.
Speaker 2:But just sounds like a cool just event oh, it was so cool people and such different documentaries, like it just sounds awesome yeah, it was so expanding in montana, people love montana, it's gorgeous yeah, oh, and it snowed the whole time, but we were able to walk around all day because it was so expanding I've never been. People love Montana.
Speaker 1:It's gorgeous and it snowed the whole time but we were able to walk around all day because it was like winter wonderland, like not windy, that's great, not that cold, cold, but like nothing like Chicago?
Speaker 2:Did it feel really like what's the word I'm looking for? Just not populated at all.
Speaker 1:I mean, I know the event was, maybe I was in missoula, and missoula is like where the university is so that part, you know like leaving the airport, like the airport is tiny, so that part where you're like okay, we're definitely not in chicago anymore there's like one bathroom in this airport yeah, I think there was one bathroom.
Speaker 2:Was there a tarmac or did you just like get off the plane onto the?
Speaker 1:okay, there were normal gates, um, but it was really small. Um. So missoula is like liberal and cool, but like it definitely. When you just look out, the city is like four blocks yeah so it's like when you look out past there, it is pretty like remote what is it helena montana?
Speaker 2:what's the capital of montana? Oh yeah, good, we know that it's like when you look out past there, it is pretty like remote. What is it, Helena?
Speaker 1:Montana. What's the capital of Montana? Oh yeah, Good question. We know that.
Speaker 2:It's not the capital's not Bozeman. Maybe it's Helena. Yeah, we don't know that yet. I think it's Helena. We're still researching that Fact. Check us or don't.
Speaker 1:Fact check us. It's fine our lives and, yeah, what else has been going on? I mean working wedding planning, of course.
Speaker 2:Of course. Wait, did you get your car yet?
Speaker 1:No, we have not gotten the car yet.
Speaker 2:Okay, I couldn't remember how, because we talked about it last episode and I can't remember how much time you were going to wait for it.
Speaker 1:I think it's this tomorrow maybe will be four weeks okay or three weeks. He said four weeks minimum four weeks minimum.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay of course we said this and like, shout out, I love my brother and sister-in-law, but they're so funny, they, they love to like scare you about medical stuff because they're doctors. But like my sister-in-law was like I was like, um, yeah, we're supposed to get it in four weeks. She's like, oh, that happened to my friends at the toyota dealership and three years later they didn't have a car. And I was like what?
Speaker 1:why, wait tell me that yeah, what and she's like, oh, that's not gonna happen to you. And I'm like, wait, but why did it happen to them? And why three years I guess they were looking for a very specific toyota sienna and and the dealership just kept stringing them along I guess it'll be another six months. Never got it, yeah, and they wouldn't settle for another car I mean at three years.
Speaker 2:At that point don't you realize you don't need a car right.
Speaker 1:Maybe they just were like really into upgrading to this like all the bells and whistles yeah it's funny because you'd almost think they're waiting for like an alfa romeo but it's like it's a toyota sienna. They're like I need that sienna. Yeah, definitely it's great but yeah, so long story long, we don't yet have the car okay, we are dreaming every day about it. I can't wait to hear about it. I are dreaming every day about it.
Speaker 2:I can't wait to hear about it. I'm like I can't wait.
Speaker 1:I can't wait to hear yeah, love a new car I know it's gonna be so nice, but yeah, that's really, that's really it for that's a lot, for checking, that's a lot, yeah. Yeah, we got a lot going on. We flew. Well, the other thing is we flew, so that'll be part of our. How wise is it?
Speaker 2:but it was weird after all these, tease them, tease them with it.
Speaker 1:Yes, After all this plane stuff we had to take like two planes. Two planes because there was a stop.
Speaker 4:You hear that, yeah, it's getting a little interference. I think it's fun. Now it's like science. Okay, are we good Weird?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, we're good Is your radio head sure still spontaneously playing a song yeah, some noise.
Speaker 2:Some random noise, as long as it's from Kid A. I'm okay with it. Is that your favorite? It is my favorite.
Speaker 1:Wait, what's my favorite song again? We just saved it Off of Kid A or in general Optimistic.
Speaker 2:It's a great tune. Yeah, are you an OK Computer guy?
Speaker 4:I'm an In Rainbows guy. I'm a. Radiohead guy. Any of their albums are amongst my favorite albums. But, I think I'm an In Rainbows guy. That's fair. Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 1:OK, computer Kid A, kid a in the running.
Speaker 4:Hell to the thief, yeah underrated the only album I have. Yeah, I always say it's their most underrated album a lot of people don't like it and I.
Speaker 1:That's what I knew radio had to be.
Speaker 4:I was like hell to the I feel like it's no one's favorite, yeah, except Except for my friend Adam Janauer. But maybe he was trying to be iconoclastic.
Speaker 2:I don't associate with those people but yeah, they're off the list. Yeah. Yeah, it's hard to choose a favorite.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so many good ones, so good, so good. But yeah, it was oh, speaking of planes.
Speaker 2:Wait, the planes.
Speaker 1:You were going to say two planes just after like there's been some plane crashes in the news, as everyone knows, and yeah, definitely was like I felt more nervous than normal. Yeah, um, kind of like nervous in that like how many personnel are back there, you know, right, obviously, based on all the stuff going on.
Speaker 2:But we, we were okay, we made it through, um, but yeah and traveling can be anxiety provoking, to begin with, totally, and then, when you lump on the recent events, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:I actually you know what's funny. I heard this guy coming onto our plane and he saw that the second plane was kind of a small plane, because it was. We went on a small plane to Missoula and I heard him just go oh, this plane is going to be oops, all turbulence, oh, and that made me laugh Like playing. It's gonna be oops, all turbulence, oh, and that made me laugh like oops all.
Speaker 4:What is it? Oops all berries. The cereal shout out.
Speaker 1:Oops all berries oops all berries. Love that, oops all crunch berries spin-off yeah, and then those guys ended up being at the film festival, which is so funny that's hilarious.
Speaker 4:They wouldn't talk to us yeah, they avoided us.
Speaker 1:They didn't want to network with us or with josh, I should say that's okay I thought about bringing our podcast um stickers, but we forgot them. Oh yeah, the podcast stickers I know that would be a great crowd to get them into my youngest son put it on his math folder, so or? His homework folder. Yeah, oh my god, maybe his like he was like friends parents on shane.
Speaker 2:He was like can I tell my teacher about the podcast? I was like sure we don't have any listeners. Yeah, why not? No, I'm kidding and and he was so I figured he would forget, because you know in one ear out the other. And then he came home that day and he was like I told her about it.
Speaker 2:I was like what? Okay, what did you say? And he was like I just said you had a podcast. And I was like okay. I was like did you say anything else about it? He was like well, he was like when does she have to listen to it? And I said anytime. And I think in his mind he thought it was like on tv or the radio or something like that.
Speaker 2:So it was like, when you know, he's trying to like piece it together in that way, and I was like anytime she wants, and he was like oh, okay, and then, he just moved on to the next thing but yeah, it was funny anyway, he was like well, okay like obviously my dad doesn't know what he's talking about, but I'm asking you what time?
Speaker 1:yeah, um, yeah, I love it. Yeah, but yeah, those stickers are awesome. Yeah, I love the stickers. We're gonna have to get them up all around town. Be great, um but, yeah, maybe we want to move into our yeah, acceptance, acceptance, yeah. So maybe we can kind of define it. I feel like there's a million ways to define it. How would you define it Like, I guess, maybe for your?
Speaker 2:How would I define it? Oh, put it on the spot, I could put myself on the spot.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm curious more like in your work as a therapist.
Speaker 2:first, yes, we start there.
Speaker 1:How do you like talk about it? Approach it define it?
Speaker 2:Sure, I think it will.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think there's the certainly there's the heavy DBT lens that I work with that talks more about like the radical acceptance of like broadly allowing, opening yourself up, being with right, whatever it is that's coming up for you, and also not just for you, but the idea of like reality, like the reality of something.
Speaker 2:And you know, I think a lot of times there's the understanding that like acceptance doesn't mean that we like something, it doesn't mean we're okay with something. So, cause there's a lot of pushback, I feel in working with clients, patients I'm sure you as well have had that where it's like well, I don't want to accept this, I'm not okay with it, or I'm not okay with what somebody else did, or, and I think it's more of can we just be with this? Can we be open to it and willing, just be with this? Yeah, can we be open to it and willing? And if we do, there might be things that come from that and also kind of moving it one step forward into how do we work within what we're accepting and like more specifically.
Speaker 2:And then I want to hear kind of cause I'm going on a tangent here, but more specifically like, especially, like the inner stuff, right, like can I? Accept these really uncomfortable emotions that I have.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because they're going to come, they're going to go. I'm never really going to get rid of them. And so how do I accept the idea, or be open to the idea, or willing whatever, you know all of that language to let this be here and then I can choose different relationships with it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, no, no, you're so right like it really boils down to like accepting inner material I was having trouble accepting john's core mic position was it because,
Speaker 4:it was jostling against his wrist oh sorry I I should have sat with it, but as the producer I needed to not accept.
Speaker 2:You worked within that reality. Yeah, you worked within that Effectively.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, we'll get to that because there's even something there. But yeah, like accepting pain, you know the emotional, felt sense, realm, realm, that's what so much acceptance is, because it's like something happens and like what's hard to accept is the felt sense of it, the feeling, the inner world, and yeah, so that's so much of accepting. And you know, like acknowledging the outer things to accept is important, but it usually the meat of it is that inner space. Yeah, yeah, I'm, I'm similar, yeah.
Speaker 2:That's from the. Certainly, when I work from the acceptance and commitment therapy lens, it's like, yeah, what's happening outside of you is bringing up something that's inside of you. Right, that's hard to accept, and it's certainly hard to accept the thing outside of you as well. But we might not be able to control that or even have any type of say in what's happening outside of you right it could be happening a world away, but it's bringing something up within you, right, and that type of thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and that makes me think about how, for clients and for myself. Like often, the first thing with that is to bring your attention to what it's bringing up in you, like obviously attending to what the outside situation is, but bring that attention inward, like let's be curious about what is coming up that even might be there to accept.
Speaker 2:Is that so? Is that for you more mindfulness practices to bring people to the? I feel like I'm kicking cords everywhere.
Speaker 1:We are all tangled up in blue.
Speaker 2:I'm so tall and gangly. I need to like move over here.
Speaker 1:This works.
Speaker 2:I think it works. I was just all over the place with these cords. My legs are like exception. Now I'm going to hit this one over here. Okay, so mindfulness.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the place with these cords. My legs are like exception. Now I'm gonna hit this one over here. But, um, okay, so mindfulness or just like more of a practice in order to be open and accepting, definitely like guiding them inward, like as we and I'll even say that a lot, especially lately like as we're talking about this, like turn that attention inward, tell me what you're noticing.
Speaker 1:What do you feel Is there anywhere it is in the body going to that place and and, yeah, like, sometimes like the acceptance too is for for clients and for me it's like the attention and the acknowledgement. Like you said earlier, I think off mic it brings with it some acceptance. When you like, from a slowed down, mindful, observant place, notice something within, you're sort of already starting to accept it by just noticing it, because to look at something, you're not really resisting it usually, so well, okay, maybe I'll even share something that came up for me where, like, maybe this practice would be useful. And I don't even know if I ever got to this, but this is embarrassing. But this week I did this, this beauty procedure, because, whatever I'm getting married, I'm seeing constant things about stuff on tiktok. I am in the like game of like appearance bs and I basically did this like dying my eyebrows thing okay and straight up.
Speaker 1:I mean to say that I hated it would be like a staggering understatement, like I was like what did I do? I look crazy, completely crazy, and it really bothered me on a level that was like almost bone chilling how much it bothered me and it made me have to like slow down and realize like what's and Josh helped me with this because I was so out to sea Like to really notice like what is coming up within me now that I did this like goofy procedure and whatever now that I did this like goofy procedure and whatever, and it was like I had to like contact, like there's a part of me that feels like I look crazy or I look ugly and you know like why is that bothering me?
Speaker 1:Or like how is that bothering me? And there's like fear there. I think there's fear of like disconnection, especially like if I look crazy, and I'm fear of like disconnection, especially like if I look crazy and I'm using this judgmental word, but like in my mind, if I look crazy, it's like I'm rejected, I'm not seen, I disappear, I'm invalid, and it's all this like shadow right or like painful stuff probably of like moments or memories where maybe in my life I didn't get the attention I wanted or the love I wanted or the acceptance I wanted from the outside and yeah, it was like, oh wow, this experience, which is like pretty benign.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's like eyebrow dye who cares? Was like bringing up the sense of like I'm not going to be loved if my appearance doesn't look normal, and normal was a big part of it. It wasn't so much like perfect, it was like normal. And yeah, it like really shook me. You know this, like I, I was so anxious, I like woke up with anxiety about it, like shaking from anxiety, and I was like, wow, this, I and you know, like I think probably I thought I had like really resolved some of that, like body image stuff and I think other things I have, or are you going in and out of that resolution at times? You know, I'm getting married.
Speaker 1:I think it's like I I am feeling this weight of like I'm going to be seen in a different way in that space. But yeah, it's like what is acceptance there? It's like I don't like this, this isn't what I would have chosen and that's is here. I can kick and scream and ruminate on it. This is here, this is the reality and like can I have some compassion for myself, for how that feels, you know, and also open. So it is like, even with radical acceptance, like it sounds kind of like violent and intense, but it's like more like a radical softening to the reality.
Speaker 1:I think of it a bit.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So that's one way it came to me, or like a full turn towards.
Speaker 2:I can't do anything about this. Yeah, I need to kind of open.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Be open to this People may judge me Right. People may laugh at me, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, be open to this. People may judge me Right, people may laugh at me, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I might look stupid.
Speaker 1:There might be someone looking at me like what the hell?
Speaker 2:Not that I'm okay with it, but almost like and I think that's, I'm pretty sure that's what Tara Brock in her book Radical Acceptance says is that it's not resignation, you're not resigning to that reality, you're not like giving up yeah right or what's that other one? Capitulation or something yeah, yeah, that type of thing, but you're, you're just kind of letting it be and working within that and it's like how?
Speaker 1:could I?
Speaker 2:right. How could I care for myself in this? How could?
Speaker 1:or you know that could be a move yeah, yeah, can I open to it? Resignation feels like that, closed, like surrender, shrink.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:It's like open to it and live with this reality, live with these eyebrows.
Speaker 2:Live with the eyebrows. Well, now I can't stop looking at your eyebrows.
Speaker 1:I know, I knew that would happen.
Speaker 2:They look like they always look.
Speaker 1:Okay, and the amount of relief. I feel you saying that is almost embarrassing people can't see this, but we're facing each other, and we're I don't know what are we? Like seven feet apart maybe I can I don't see anything okay, thank you for saying that I'm not just giving you like I know you're not seeking reassurance here and I'm.
Speaker 2:I don't see anything, so yeah, well, I appreciate it.
Speaker 1:But yeah, it's like it really did give me a window into yeah some unresolved stuff, especially, and maybe it's like some stuff that's unraveling as I'm looking at, like being a bride and having a lot of people at a wedding, like looking at you and like probably a part of me that like wants that and probably that like is freaked out by that and wanting to look perfect when everyone looks at me, but also not wanting to be that person that wants to look perfect. It's like a lot of stuff.
Speaker 1:So, like looking normal feels very like integral to all that noise yeah going on, but what do I want to actually do is like slow down and like quiet the noise, and josh I mean josh helped me so much with this by just being like nobody cares about your eyebrows.
Speaker 2:Nobody cares as much about your eyebrows as you do but the cares and it's like god. I need to hear that better if I know j you're right here if Josh would have said yeah, you do, look crazy.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:It probably would have made me feel suicidal.
Speaker 2:I would have been lying. I'm not saying he should have, and I'm married as well.
Speaker 1:I know a little bit of the. You know having a partner.
Speaker 2:I know the lay of the land a little bit, but I'm curious when we as people myself included ask for like no, I obviously look crazy.
Speaker 3:Tell me that right, like tell me like I don't know if I really want to hear that yeah.
Speaker 1:You Like. I don't know if I really want to hear that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, I was just curious when you were like I look crazy, right Like tell me I look crazy, it looks crazy, and if the response would have been yeah, I mean, you do.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And we'll get through it Right.
Speaker 1:Well, I think there was a moment where you were like, yeah, it does look a little different on one of the days, but you were like, but also like I don't care, like who cares, and you were so unfazed by the whole thing that really made me appreciate you and realize like wow, but this is where we've talked about this before where the partnered aspect of the wise mind comes into play where it's like, where one of us in a partnered relationship is in so entrenched in one of those whether it be like the emotional space or the really rational and like inflexible or rigid or whatever, and then the other partner can, because they're outside of it maybe can like bring in that calmness.
Speaker 2:And he did you know it can really like in retrospect probably not in that moment. We're seeing it in real time as much and again I wasn't there, but it would be funny. We all three live together, but like in retrospect, you're like man, that really, that really like I was out of whack there and it really balanced me out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, you know what's funny. It didn't help with the neurosis of the moment, sure, but I could hear this like low note deep inside of like this is what it feels like to be like loved and accepted by your partner. Yeah, is like I can look this crazy and they're just like I don't care.
Speaker 2:Acceptance yeah, I really felt accepted by you in a way that, like God, I don't care.
Speaker 1:Acceptance yeah, like I really felt accepted by you in a way that, like God, I wanted to give my younger self that moment of like wow, you're going to find someone one day that loves you this much. Yeah.
Speaker 1:That it's like just a funny moment between you two or sometimes a painful moment, but that's it, you know, it's not like oh, suddenly he thinks I'm hideous and he's sort of like gotta go. You know which is ridiculous and emotion minded, that like he would do that. But I needed to feel that. I think, because you know the teenager in me that's like I live and die by, like how cool my clothes look or how my hair looks or whatever probably needed that experience a little bit. And isn't that amazing? Like to accept yourself when your eyebrows look crazy is like that's a real practice of acceptance and accept the moment as imperfect, like that's how you really connect to that self-worth, connect to that wise mind.
Speaker 1:It often is in like those less than ideal situations and I know there's so many painful, awful things going on in the world. I obviously know my eyebrows matter in no way, but it's like in some ways it also probably helps me to obsess about something like that when the political situation is crumbling. Oh yeah. And there's so much craziness all around. Yeah, yeah, that it's like, oh wow, if I just focus on this one element of my appearance, there's a distraction there, there's a busyness there, there's something. But anyway, I digress.
Speaker 2:But no, but I mean I it's hard for me not to get sentimental a little bit right now because there were so the hearing, you say having someone like josh now because I was working with you in the moments where you were like I'm never going to be with anybody yeah and nobody is going to accept me. I don't think you said it like that but I yeah no in those words. But some version of that I have.
Speaker 2:I have memories of conversations, of sharing an office with you and that's why, this podcast is the way it is right, because we shared an office and these were the conversations we were having and nobody's gonna accept me. I mean, it was kind of the theme of who I am, and so to have those moments. Those are so foundational and paramount and I'm so glad you have that and I'm so glad you have Josh, because it's easy.
Speaker 2:It's not easy to say because you don't know like you're going to find somebody. I don't think I ever said that to you because you just don't know. It's easy for me, though, knowing who you are, to say you deserve that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I feel like that as a person, you know like you deserve that and I want that for you so badly. You know so lucky because I have female friends that like are very honest with me and give like actually good feedback. But it was profound to hear it from like a really close male friend who's married and at a different point in life. You know, like that definitely felt like corrective and helpful.
Speaker 1:I think I think Josh and I both owe you a little for us meeting each other, because really like being on that dating journey and having people like around you and help you realize like you deserve to be accepted like no matter how crazy your eyebrows. Like you really deserve it. Um, yeah, no, totally, that was so helpful. So, and funny enough like a less than ideal moment like that can bring up all this right now, that discussion we're having.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, it's like sometimes accepting or I'll even say this to clients like you don't know if this thing is good or bad, painful, not painful, like you don't know it so much like humility is an acceptance, like can we use the uncertainty to our advantage of like this could unfold for you in a way you couldn't imagine and will you know, that's life, so it's like hold some space for it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, god, I feel like I have such a hard time accepting that, especially with kids. Like my life is in like flux all the time. I feel like once something feels like I got a rhythm to it, it changes immediately yeah, and so I feel personally as a person, as somebody who likes, like continuity yeah it's.
Speaker 2:It's hard for me to accept a lot of times how fluid the just maturation processes of your children and, and you know, you get one area where you think, okay, I got a little bit of like my sea legs here in this area, and then a whole nother issue pops up and you're like I'm like what? Like I felt like I was just getting like my footing here and then so that creates a lot of anxiety for me and like it's hard for me to accept where it's like this is just kind of the way it is. They're changing every single day, Just like we are as adults, but it's not so profound. I feel like sometimes where it's like, okay, like we've matured into kind of the adults we're gonna be we can still make changes and things like that.
Speaker 2:But kids it's like, so it's slow and rapid at the same time, that it's just like, oh my god, I'm pinging all over the place and and that's a real hard thing for me to accept- yeah it's, it's like it's happy yeah like I'm happy they're growing and changing in different ways and it keeps you like, oh my god, yeah, there's like a vibrating feeling of like what's next?
Speaker 1:yeah a little bit, you know yeah, and does it feel like with each new phase, you're like we're all new at this?
Speaker 2:yeah, because every day you're like well, this is the first time I'm yeah this is the first day of me parenting a nine and a half year old, and this is going to be the tomorrow's, going to be the next day of me parenting a nine and a half and a day year old. You know like your first iteration of parenting, you know with, or at least like I guess, your oldest, but still. But then when you have two it's like, well, this is my first time having two kids at these ages and they're different and they're and I'm different and flux, it's just change yeah, so you know, I know.
Speaker 2:So I gotta like find things to like anchor myself with yeah to feel like I know what that's gonna look like, because it's hard for me to accept that I don't know what all these other things are gonna look like yeah, yeah, that's that's a hard thing for me is a lot of change all at once, which?
Speaker 1:is tough. I had um. I haven't seen this show. It's called no good deed. I think it's called or something it's on netflix.
Speaker 1:A client of mine really wants me to watch it and I do want to watch it. I just haven't had the time. But she quoted this part of it to me. That was like one of the characters said to another when he was going to get an MRI and he was nervous about the results. The MRI technician was just like you know, life is just a series of transitions, and I thought it was such an interesting like to even consider like oh, maybe this person gets some big diagnosis To like hold that kind of open even to language it like that right, like this is a transition now Even cancer, right, or you know, whatever kind of tumor or this kind of issue, like it stayed with me that idea of like life is just a series of transitions, like that is always what you will do and it is hard.
Speaker 2:Like it sounds softer for some reason or it sounds different. Yeah, and logically we all know this. I think, yeah, it doesn't make it any easier for me. You know, that's the, that's the doesn't make it any easier for me. Yeah, that's the crux of things that are really hard to accept. For me, it's like I know that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Logically right Like.
Speaker 2:I know that, of course, I know that the idea of kind of maybe getting back to like, the idea of like values a little, why what is important about me having and and really trying to tolerate this anxiety when these changes come? Well, there's so many things of value that are tied to it, like family and connection and growth, and not just, you know, for my kids, but growth for me and like so there's so many things tied to it. But but it, that's the it's like. Yeah, I know that it's transitions, I know it's changed.
Speaker 2:This is what it's gonna be yeah, and it's still so hard I know but transitions. I like that word yeah, it did.
Speaker 1:It did feel softer and yeah, I remember feeling like a lightness from it as and that would be yeah, because I was saying change right, yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, and maybe we have more like socially conditioned on to the word change but, yeah, thinking like change, the more transition yeah, yeah, transition's almost like it.
Speaker 1:This like more kind of like gentle technical term. Actually, you know what's so funny. My four-year-old niece is was. She says words sometimes that are like so beyond her maturity level. My sister-in-law was like you're going to actually stay home with me this summer while she's between jobs and and and Saoirse is about to go to kindergarten. She's like you're going to stay home with me this summer and, sir, she stands up and goes before I transition and I was like wow she said the word transition.
Speaker 1:She is like whip smart yeah but yeah, I was like it did sound so nice coming from her and yeah, like that idea of like you'll just move to the next thing and it feels like there's something neutral there. Yeah, you know, even if it is like I'm going to be sick in this phase. Yeah. That's, I will transition to this place, and then to this place and to this place.
Speaker 2:Yeah, change sounds like it's just like it just happened.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like there's no middle ground. It's like you were this and then it changed.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Or changed, I don't know. Yeah, ground, it's like you were this and then it changed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, or change, I don't know. Yeah. Yeah, maybe transition sounds like meant to be or something. Yeah, or at least like there's a pace. There's a slower pace to it, maybe.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, like this is a transition here like and we're gonna work through it and yeah we. I don't know, it feels more understanding. Maybe I'm looking too much into it, but no, I feel that, I think it changed.
Speaker 2:It almost feels like you were this this day and now you're this right, Like all these changes happen, and it was this one day and it was, and it's like no, like my parenting is like yeah, that's all it is. It's just like I'm transitioning into these new phases and my kids are transitioning into these new phases of being, and us as a family, and us as you know, a unit and like of being and us as a family, and us, as you know, a unit, and like this it's just all transitions yeah, maybe I'll try to carry that more with me and see where that lands.
Speaker 1:I know I really want to watch this show. I've heard it's really good and there's like a lot of nuggets in it like that, but yeah, yeah, I mean but talk about the health of it too. Oh, that's hard to accept any health stuff yeah it's kind of the big one because really it's ultimately accepting death yeah or mortality right, even if in that moment the health event isn't death directly related at that moment yeah it's the idea of like I am not going to live forever and I will transition.
Speaker 2:I mean, I have chronic pain and I feel like that's something that is has been different iterations of hard to accept yeah, yeah and it's like my body's just not gonna be, it's just not gonna get. Not that it's not gonna get better, it just is like it's chronic, so it's like it's there, yeah yeah, I have chronic health stuff too, and it's like you, learn to live with you learn love with it. Yeah, you grow around it. You try to.
Speaker 1:And even like accepting both like the pain itself, right Like I have, like joint pain, the pain itself and the idea of it right Like, like the, the self concept, right Of like I'm a healthy person you know and like, oh, like, do I get that label anymore? Like, what does this mean?
Speaker 1:And yeah, it's like incredibly difficult to like reorganize how you see yourself and really we talked about this with Vijay when we had him on the other day the most like vibrant, like self-concept is actually more of that like openness, right, like that presence like maybe I don't have a self-concept at all or need one at all yeah I can be in the present moment and almost the wise mind is that right.
Speaker 1:it's this open space of I personally think of it, kind of the spirituality, but not everyone does it's more like that core of you that doesn't isn't healthy, isn't unhealthy, isn't anything, just is.
Speaker 2:It just is yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and like acceptance is related to that, sometimes going to that part of you. Right. Helps you realize like there's nothing to resist.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and like acceptance is related to that. Sometimes going to that part of you Right Helps you realize like there's nothing to resist. Yeah, well, and that's where I think I really want to clue people into. The patients and clients that I work with is like that how effortful it is to not accept and to just resist. Yeah, myself included in my own life, right, like how much effort it takes to, yeah, resist, try to control or escape or however you want to put it right experiential, avoidant, like all of those different, like labels for it, and that is just so consuming. Yeah, right, and but it's so counterintuitive sometimes because people think they're doing something. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it's like they think it's productive, right and it does serve a purpose, because typically those are the things that numb your. Whatever it is you don't want to accept right your thoughts or your feelings. So it is doing something in the short term, but it's just so effortful and it doesn't really allow more for that openness and the growth.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's a good way to think about. Like defining it is like defining its opposite, right, like that resisting that effort of pushing against.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:You know and like.
Speaker 2:Resisting reality. Resisting reality.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and there's so many ways, or resisting reality, and there's so many ways I mean it's another thing I feel like I'm doing so often, where it's like trying to control your reality, push against it make it how you want it. Instead of that, like open presence and just experience your reality as it unfolds. And there's a dialectic there. Right Of like, how do you then also have values and live in line with them and make? Choices and whatever you really have to hold a true like paradox. Can I be open to my experience?
Speaker 2:and have intention. Have you ever met anybody who just seems like so open to their experience that it's like they're so accepting of it? I think I've met a few people and it almost annoys me, yeah yeah, who are you thinking?
Speaker 1:like a tar rock?
Speaker 2:no, no, like, like, no. I was actually thinking about like some people I've like actually encountered in my life oh yeah, who, almost? And maybe it's not acceptance, I don't know what it is, but it just seems like they're just okay with everything yeah almost like, or they're open to everything, so much almost like a non-reactivity. Yeah, that maybe it's because I want to embody that more that it annoys me, right, but it's just like, wow, like can you name any names? I mean, I could I don't think I'm going to.
Speaker 2:I mean, off mic, at least it's not like people I'm close with um, but people I've had run-ins with like consistently in different iterations in my life and I'm just kind of like whoa yeah, like, is this really how you're operating? I don't know. Yeah, I've definitely and again, is that?
Speaker 1:acceptance? I don't know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've definitely met and again, is that acceptance, I don't know, or is it just kind of like apathy? Or is it like? Just I don't care.
Speaker 1:It makes me think of like basically all the people that live in New Orleans, like you know what I mean, like where they're just like hey man, what's that sign? Like let the good times roll.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like they're just okay with everything.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Like it's all okay.
Speaker 2:Nothing bothers them. Yeah. Nothing riles them up, nothing's hard to. Am I going to say this right not accept.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Like. I don't know, maybe it's a facade, but Well, yeah, I'm sure for some people it is a facade. I'm trying to think who I've noticed with this ethos that it doesn't seem like a facade. I mean like a jeff goldblum. I know I don't know him personally, but you know, you almost think it's sort of just like yeah, it's all but he's aged exceptionally well, so maybe that's really working for him totally I don't know. I know because I I also do gravitate toward people that are not like that at all.
Speaker 2:You know, like crotchety, like always pissed off yeah, yeah, yeah, there's a vulnerability there, but it's like if nothing's an issue if nothing's an issue, get out of here.
Speaker 1:There's something wrong there, right, Right yeah. If nothing's an issue, like is this thing on?
Speaker 2:I don't know it just made. For some reason my mind went to that when we were talking.
Speaker 1:I was like man, I think.
Speaker 2:I've met some people that are they so accepting? And is that acceptance? One and two, it's just like, oh, it's kind of off-putting, right, like, oh, it's kind of off-putting, but so yeah, yeah, maybe I'm just trying to like put in a dose of reality that that's not what we're talking about. Like an acceptance or an openness is just like we're just like yeah, whatever, like so chill and like like. That doesn't mean that that's an embodiment of acceptance.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know yeah, then that almost and I know we both face this brings up like the question that a lot of clients over the years have brought up of like is there anywhere? Like non-acceptance is appropriate and important.
Speaker 2:Well, I think people again, I think the word is so charged for people like acceptance that they immediately jump to. That means I'm okay with it yeah and especially the state of the world right now yeah like, if we're using language with people like acceptance, we have to, we have to be careful the way we're using it right. And then especially with intersectionality and different identities and things like that right, where we need to be firm and like we're not saying we're okay with these things.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That's not what we're saying, right Like especially like more institutional things or societal things, like that's not what we're talking about. So there is a psycho ed piece there when we're for me at least, where it's like-.
Speaker 2:We don't want to use this term as like yeah, no like okay. We don't want to use this term as like yeah, no like okay, yeah, you seem to accept it and move on, or you know that type of thing. So I think people do bristle at it because their mind immediately says you're telling me, I have to accept this.
Speaker 1:You're telling me that I'm not okay with this. To be okay with this, yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm not fine with this and it's like, yeah, 100%, we're not going there right.
Speaker 1:Like we shouldn't be okay with these different systems or things, right, yeah, yeah. And like maybe what I would do now if that came up, because probably on a different day I would say a different thing. But like if a client said like I can't accept this, like I refuse and they would say that because they think it's a good thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like, maybe it's essential to not accept. Let's say it's a good thing, yeah, like to your initial point. Okay to not accept.
Speaker 1:Let's say it's about politics like this, policy like I. I need this non-acceptance. I might have them go approach it more.
Speaker 1:You know like either have that part of them talk to me or talk to it you know, tell me about what it's doing for you to not accept this, why that's so important, like honoring that first, and sometimes in that outcomes like the more precise languaging of, even in their own words, of like. Is it non-acceptance or is it? I need to do what I can to problem solve this or participate in a resistance to this socially, vote a certain way, donate a certain way, volunteer a certain way, because I need to express that I don't agree with this, I don't believe in this and the people that are being hurt by this I care about. You know and like. Is that non-acceptance of this policy or is it like I can both open to the reality of it and move through it with my values, with my wise mind, and fight it like you can accept something and like participate in the fight against right something.
Speaker 2:Now, that's a complicated paradox, but it's, it's real it is real I think people can resonate with that, if we lead them there yeah yeah, we're not saying we're okay with it. You can resist these realities, right, and you can do that in a way that is still accepting that this is the world right now, or this is the thing that you're struggling with.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a lot, it's a lot, and it's like we're all, as human beings, going to resist.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Left and right and it's more of that like can you notice and slow down Right and find that acceptance in the wise mind? Yeah, that's another paradox where it's like you'll never be perfect at this. That's totally not the point. It's more noticing resistance. Yeah, I always say to clients like if you're pushed with a pin, you're naturally going to instantly move away, like that's the human body right and more like once you move away, if that pin is something important and in your reality can you open to it somehow and work with it.
Speaker 2:I also try to lead people to like what's some stuff that's maybe a little bit lower stakes in your life that we could work on accepting yeah and like sitting with longer yeah right then, because people certainly in the therapy space want to work on the heavy hitting stuff. Totally trauma yeah absolutely, and that's, that's what they're there for, and that's fair. And it's like, how could you embody this? Like today, right, like what? Like what's some?
Speaker 1:what's a weather? Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:Like a lower hanging kind of fruit type of situation where it's like maybe this is something you encounter more than you think and how could we work on opening up? What does it bring up for you? Staying present with it, Non reactivity or whatever? Yeah. I mean, that's not the answer to everything, but sometimes that resonates with people where it's like they're so fixated on, like the thing they think they're in therapy for, and it's like, well, how could I possibly accept this? Or how could? I like even start that process.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it's like well, let's step outside of that for a second.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah, weather's a great one, especially living in Chicago. I always resist weather Like I'll, I'll leave the house and I'll be like it's so cold, I'm so cold, it's freezing, I'm freezing, and I hate this.
Speaker 2:I'm cold and I will, and I'm going to have a terrible time and it's going to be awful. Yeah, I'm cold.
Speaker 1:I'm cold. I'm cold like languaging, or like almost even that the like, embodiment of the acceptance right is like. Can I stand a little taller in the cold weather, like allow some softening in my body and then step out into the cold? You know, it's like there can even be a physical, felt sense of acceptance where it's like can you stop bracing against this thing and just let go? And even if that comes up in like grief or that comes up in whatever it's like, can you open the body a little and feel from there?
Speaker 2:I think, well, you saying leaving the apartment made me think of like telling people, like how would you embody this in a social situation? Because I think social situations can bring up a lot of like resistance or control or just so much that it's like how could we accept that this is probably not going to look like what you're thinking?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's not going to go. It's going to go certain ways, and how could you be more present with that? Even?
Speaker 1:Right yeah, because it's this open field of uncertainty. What's someone going to say to? Me or people gonna like me? Yeah, am I gonna feel in the mix?
Speaker 2:yeah, I told somebody once. I was like why don't you like just put this? Um, you get in your car and like put scan. Like the next time you're in a car, just put scan on your radio and then like, just just like stop it at some point and you have to listen to that station. And they were like super resistant to it. They were like I'm not going to fucking do that. And I was like what? I was like come on, like let's just try it.
Speaker 2:And they were like I couldn't do that and that just shows right, like there are certain things where it's like I'm not going to accept what's on the radio, Like I have to control, like I'm not going to, that's going to ruin my ride or you know, like that type of thing which, as all three of us are music lovers, I get that Right Like I want it to be my music and what I want to listen to.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But I think there are ways that we can maybe stretch ourselves a little bit more.
Speaker 1:I'll like be DJing for Josh and I sometimes and it's like listen to the first like minute of a song and I'm like, okay, we're done now. And it's like why can't I like let the whole song play?
Speaker 2:And listen to completion.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Probably because there, if I really reflect, there's's like a part of me that wants to capture like the feeling of the song first coming on and us remembering where we first heard this or whatever, like all that blast of like nostalgia. I'm like chasing instead of like oh, maybe like open to what it could be, even if it's a less potent feeling than the beginning of a song, like I had this half-baked theory a long time ago that once CDs and MP3s and iPods came like people don't truly like no albums anymore.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like I'm thinking about my parents, and it was like they knew their albums like front to back, like they knew every song, and there was almost like a patience with it Cause they couldn't. I mean, you could pick up the needle, right on the record and like put it to the next song. They just didn't do that, they just like let it play. So I had this like half-baked theory where I was like I'm never going to fully like know albums like my parents do Like this fear, like they like know them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was like just like they knew it. Well, it's like lo-fi technology probably does force you to accept more. Well, yeah, because it's more effort to to like change it, whereas like we can just that's like fuck it like next song like talk, you just flip your finger me. This didn't move me in the first three seconds, yeah next song like next next gonna do that yeah anyway, it was like one of those things that I was like I want to know my albums too.
Speaker 1:I need it, but that takes a lot of work. Yeah, it was like one of those things that I was like I want to know my albums too. I need it, but that takes a lot of work, yeah.
Speaker 4:It sounds like way too much work that I'm not going to accept I know, yeah, isn't that funny though.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that is funny, that is funny.
Speaker 1:Josh knows albums and you'll always ask me what album is it off of?
Speaker 2:And I'm like yikes, couldn't tell you. Yeah, we used. I had a friend who he I think he knows a lot of music and also I think for him it was like having it. So it was like this was in the era of, like burning cds yeah, he just wanted the most burned cds of anybody.
Speaker 2:He wanted the largest collection. So we always used to make the joke like he never knows any song past track three, like he just on any album because it's like he'll listen to it. He's like, great, gotta burn it first. You know he would listen like the first two tracks and then it was like, oh okay, great, it's a part of the collection now but it was like he doesn't know anything past track three you know.
Speaker 1:So anytime someone asks him like do you know this man, you're like yeah, a couple tracks yeah a couple great tracks, right?
Speaker 2:yeah, love. It sure, tell me about song 10 oh, I would.
Speaker 1:No, yeah, I would never listen to that. Yeah, quite to 10.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so funny but yeah, lo-fi might yeah force you to be a little bit more like sit with it and be patient with it well, it's like to meet up with someone you don't have cell phones.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, it's like all that technology has definitely made it. It's so easy for us to change our reality yeah that in the moments we really think we're shows.
Speaker 2:Let me just watching shows. It's like oh, first two seconds, don't like it, boom on the next thing gone, yeah, totally wild cast podcast first, two minutes don't like first two minutes. Yeah, nobody's listening right now, kelly they bailed a long time ago.
Speaker 1:We're not in the first two tracks yeah of this pod that's really funny yeah, okay. Well, I'm sure we'll talk a ton about acceptance, anything else, that's gonna yeah, that's gonna be a.
Speaker 2:We're gonna have a whole series, we're gonna have a whole, totally, yeah.
Speaker 1:Catalog of acceptance I'm thinking one thing that I heard on another podcast, the Jungian Therapy Podcast. I love they were saying that Carl Jung would always tell a therapist that he supervised and mentored to ask themselves at a stuck point with a client what is the necessary task? That the patient is refusing to do, and I'll think about it a lot with clients, that it opens up a lot and often the answer is accept something accept something right.
Speaker 1:It's like except my depression, except my dad, you know whatever. Sometimes it's something else, but it's sort of like and I even have sometimes said it out loud to clients Like if you really turn inward like is there something necessary for you to do that you're not willing to do, right? Now and a lot of times they'll find something and, yeah, some form of acceptance like let go, let be trust. Yeah. Be patient All forms of acceptance.
Speaker 2:I like that though.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know, I have it on a little post-it and I'll think about it sometimes. Yeah, he had so many good quotes, man.
Speaker 2:For sure.
Speaker 1:Full of them. Full of them, Okay. So should we go to our?
Speaker 2:Is it wise? Is it wise? How wise is it?
Speaker 1:How wise is it? We need to establish an actual name for this yeah. What do we prefer? Maybe the three of us could vote right now. Is it wise? Think about it. Is it wise or how wise is it? So for the first one, we'll vote. Is it wise, how wise is it? Okay, you couldn't follow that visuals of the hands-fressing.
Speaker 4:So I voted for. Is it wise?
Speaker 1:and John and Josh voted for how wise is it? It's the boys versus the girls and. I lost big time, but that's okay. How wise is it? We're sticking with it. I can accept that.
Speaker 2:Are we doing it? We're doing it. We're doing it from now on. I can radically accept that. Wise is it?
Speaker 1:is it wise, is more cheeky, is it?
Speaker 4:oh, it's how wise is it leaves more room for nuance I like that oh how wise is it is like? Is it wise? I just used the two interchangeably.
Speaker 1:That was incredible.
Speaker 2:Okay, so how wise is it?
Speaker 4:We're going to mix them up, that's okay.
Speaker 2:Maybe this will be the ongoing debate of the show. Yeah, and then when we have guests, they can tell us what they prefer.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think, for today, let's do how wise is it? Our question for today is how wise is it to check a bag?
Speaker 1:when you're traveling. Check a bag at the airport, at the airport when you're traveling. Yeah, which?
Speaker 2:is interesting because we chat about this before via text, and I'm excited about this one because I think you and I have differing opinions on this yeah. But I want to hear your perspective first, because I want to be open and accepting that maybe I'm not being wise about this. Tell me your perspective.
Speaker 1:I think these days and we can think about, you know whatever in the 90s checking bags is a whole different game, but because, remember, we used to be free to check a bag. Do you remember that when we were little it was free?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean certain airlines still offer first bag free check bag? I think, don't they?
Speaker 1:I know some do free carry-on or what. Some do the reverse, where you pay for the carry-on Right. Well, obviously I'm tipping my hand here. Does Southwest?
Speaker 2:do that. See, I'm tipping my hand here because I never check a bag, so I don't know the fee structure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, anyway, I should know, because I do both.
Speaker 2:So you I often pay.
Speaker 1:I feel like I always pay at this point, but yeah, so I do in this in 2025, I think that it is wise to check a bag because so often and this happened to us in montana I was like you know what.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna push myself and pack extremely light, pack one outfit a day, not obsess about my clothes and get caught up in the part of me that needs to like look, just relax, let my wise mind lead. Picked an outfit for each day, packed really light, was so proud of myself, carried it on to both planes, like the connecting flight and the regular flight. Then, on the way home, the woman at the front desk we need 15 passengers to check their carry-ons because there's not enough space on this flight. Then the message gets more aggressive Nobody has come up yet. Nobody of these 15 passengers has volunteered.
Speaker 1:So I was like you know what I'm going to be, my little good little citizen and go up to the desk and say like I really don't want to check this bag, but if I have to, of course I will, but can I wait and not volunteer? And wait until you force me to do it, because I'll do it then, but I don't want to volunteer in case someone else volunteers. And she was like, okay, I've gotten zero volunteers so far and I was like great.
Speaker 2:So then, so wait a second.
Speaker 1:Are you saying it's wise to check or to not check Because they're going?
Speaker 2:to get checked anyway. Okay, so okay. But you're saying just check it and rip the bandaid off.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then you can bring your full bottles of shampoo and you can bring everything, all your hair products, all your shit options for clothes.
Speaker 2:Got it, you're a full shampoo person. Well you like that?
Speaker 1:I'm more like I don't want to be too hemmed in. I want some options in that bag and it feels breezy to you to check it. And then it's like I got nothing. I got a backpack or a purse.
Speaker 2:You got nothing with you A purse, a purse.
Speaker 1:So I would cruise around the airport in a purse.
Speaker 2:So it feels breezy.
Speaker 1:Feels very breezy. Now I will say you're going to run yourself $45 each way. Yeah yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2:So you have to be at least packing that much cash, yeah, and is there any anxiety about losing it? Not that you would lose it, but no, that is a great question because this is the anxiety and I want to sub-question here Is there a difference between a direct flight versus a connection? I?
Speaker 1:think yes, that's why I was so nervous this time and why I actually forced myself to not check, because I was like I'm afraid that they won't transfer the checked bag to the second flight, yeah so I really want to hold on to this carry-on. And the woman was kind of like we always move it over, you're gonna be fine. But then I'm like how come I always hear so?
Speaker 2:many. Why do people then? Why is there even an issue with lost luggage ever then? They were saying it's like if you book the flight separately, okay, then it's a real issue I don't buy what that woman was selling at all yeah right, I don't buy that at all, it's like, but they do that at the airport where they're like it's not gonna be an issue, and then, when it's an issue, they're like sorry we can't help you?
Speaker 1:we can't help you we can't help you. We told you to the most dispassionate.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's okay yeah.
Speaker 1:Sure, so you're right, that's the anxiety and I will say I've never lost a bag and that might change my feelings on this practice, but I do like to check. But with a connecting flight maybe I think it's more wise to bring a carry-on, if you can, if you're going for a week. I cannot live out of a carry-on for a week personally, sure, I need more clothes than that. I need more hair stuff than that fair enough, and that's yeah.
Speaker 2:What do you think I lean in the direction of? It's not that wise to check it, but I do not like checking yeah, my I don't I like having it with me. There's a few reasons why I think I can pack. I mean, I think carry-ons are pretty big, Like for me.
Speaker 2:Like if I'm doing a winter thing, it might be a little bit different, right, right, like a lot more long-sleeve stuff, like just larger, and Sarah always laughs at me because she's like your clothes are so big, like compared to like her and my kids. She's like how do you even like live like?
Speaker 1:how do you like? You can't like pack anything. But yeah, your arms are long and your legs are long, yeah, and my clothing is just more material so it's like. It's like, yeah, kids clothes is just like.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's just um, no, what I want it with me, so that I can also exit the airport immediately.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that is nice, I do not want to wait for the carousel and all of that, so I like getting to my destination. It's already been, however, whatever it's been Right. Even if the flight is nice, I just want to get to my destination. So that's part of the reason why. And I just want to get to my destination, so that's part of the reason why. And I think yeah, I think there is a fear that they're going to lose it.
Speaker 2:I would never do it on, or I would be very skeptical about doing it if there was like a layover connection, like something like that. That would be really tough for me I would be concerned. Now. There have been times where we've gone on vacation as a family and we put like all of this stuff in like one really huge suitcase and then everybody has a backpack and we check it that has worked out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um, that makes sense I don't like it though yeah, I still, I still don't like it I still don't like it. You've done it, it's made sense, but you don't like it made sense in that moment, but it was still a huge suitcase yeah, like that I had to log and that you had to wait for it on the carousel, especially the coming home.
Speaker 3:I just want to get home. I don't want to wait for luggage. Yeah, there was. There was one time where I packed.
Speaker 2:I went to. We went to San Diego and then San Diego, we like spent a few days there. We were there for a wedding. This was before kid. No, no, we had wait. Do we have kids? Wait? Now I'm mixing up my flight. No, now I'm thinking of okay, we went to portland. We were with, we were with um wes and my oldest son and I was like somehow I was like we have more clothes than what we came with, like I was like it was like multiplying.
Speaker 2:I was like there's no way we're gonna make this is so it was close instead of, I checked the fees for like a check bag or another thing and like. So I ended up mailing my clothes home. It was cheaper, wow. I went to like ups or something like that and I put all of our dirty clothes in a box and I mailed them to myself and it was like cheaper.
Speaker 2:And then all we had was like backpacks or something like that it was like yeah I did on like the last day of the trip or something like that that's incredible to get it together to go to ups and do well, I mean, it's like you just bring it and they box it up and send it.
Speaker 1:Wow, I don't care I'm kind of afraid of ups.
Speaker 2:I feel like they're mean to me when I go it was like I don't need any of this clothing in the next month, so whenever it arrives, it arrives like ground shipping overnight no, thank you, just get it there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, wow. Well, I'm so curious, josh, what do you think? You might be a tiebreaker?
Speaker 4:I feel like my answer is not that interesting or definitive. Well come on. We'll decide that. I think you check a bag if you need to check a bag and you don't if you don't need to, yeah.
Speaker 1:I don't always need to check a bag, true, I?
Speaker 4:don't always need to check a bag, but if I'm going for a week I'm probably going to need to check a bag.
Speaker 1:What a wise answer.
Speaker 4:I can get away with it. If I don't, I feel like it's a cop-out, but it's just true. I'm leaving tomorrow for my bachelor party to Austin John was invited.
Speaker 2:John's too cool for it Checking a bag. I'm not checking a bag.
Speaker 4:And a story, and I'm not checking a bag and I'm not, and I'm not too cool for it and I'm not too. It's really cool to check a bag and it can be cool to not check a bag, yeah, but, um, but for two days I just never would need to check a bag unless I was bringing. You know, I don't even know right I think there's also skis right, I could check my skis if I was gonna play guitar I would probably check
Speaker 4:a guitar? Yeah, but it's like a few t-shirts, a couple pairs of jeans, yeah, maybe a book, when you ever have you I'm not gonna be reading on your bachelor maybe on the plane you're reading on your bachelor party. I don't want to sit next to no one on the plane.
Speaker 2:Speaking of the skis, that made me think of like the past couple of years we've gone down to Arizona for like spring break with the kids and things like that, and it got the amount of just people checking their golf clubs, oh sure that is just like every other person has a set of golf clubs.
Speaker 1:Yeah, wait, you said this is Arizona.
Speaker 2:Where is it? Yeah, yeah, it's in arizona. I mean, people are just going out there, that's all they do there.
Speaker 1:Do you know that arizona uses like four times the amount of water of like any other state in the us?
Speaker 2:because watering those lawns yeah, it's all the lawns and it's all those resorts. Yeah, for sure all resorts. Yeah, they have green space too. I mean those the golf courses are connected to some of those as well. I also think there might be a little bit of like some I want to be cool and not have that much. I love movies where there are characters who can just like travel so light and it just is like God, really cool. There's some there's like such utility in that and that's the part that crushes me that minimalist thing where it's like yeah
Speaker 1:I love that or it's like I woke up, like this, I'm just, I'm free yeah you know like really, that's all any of us want. Yeah, like I feel like someone's gonna judge me for bringing a big bag and my family always makes fun of me, but my, my, like, my back can be so light and my family lifted up like, jeez, what have you gotten here?
Speaker 2:it's like that's a normal that's your, that's your calling card. Is that you typically, or you have a history? Of over and over packing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think all my family thinks I'm like.
Speaker 2:Are you bringing like a blow dryer?
Speaker 1:I'm not just bringing, I'm bringing a curling iron blow dryer, straightener and diffuser.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, You're checking a bag at any where. I mean I'm checking a bag to go to work. There's not even debate, yeah.
Speaker 1:Like it's crazy.
Speaker 4:You work from home.
Speaker 1:I know it's like I didn't bring any hair stuff at all to Missoula. And I was like hopefully they have a blow dryer. A small what.
Speaker 2:Bottle of hair stuff. It has to, I guess, if you're.
Speaker 4:Bottle. How big is hair stuff?
Speaker 2:Well, you said that you had to bring your big bottle of shampoo.
Speaker 1:No, I can bring small bottles. I actually can bring small bottles of like the actual toiletries. It's more like the hair dryers and diffusers and curling irons, or whatever that take up space. Yeah. And I think if I were a man maybe it would, and I were socialized to live and dress and wear my hair like a man, I think like a mask presenting person. I think, yeah, it would probably be easier for me to bring a carry on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and if I was shorter I'd have less material.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:And my limbs were long.
Speaker 1:If you were teeny tiny, teeny tiny, yeah, and then with kids like you're, like gate checking, like strollers, you're gate checking like cars or I guess you can't gate check.
Speaker 2:I know every family has like 13 bags. It's hard, it's really hard when they're that little. Yeah, and it depends on where you're going because if you don't know anybody, you got to bring the stroller, you got to bring the right you gotta bring all that, sometimes a pack and play oh yeah, you gotta bring all that. I know it's hard. That's a lot of stuff.
Speaker 1:It's like you almost need like a butler to carry all this stuff, which we would never have.
Speaker 2:But wow, it's a lot. Yeah, sheesh, I don't know. I'm still going to go with trying, if I can, to not check a bag.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But that's just me, and I'm sure I'm going to in the future check something.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sure, if you have to go on a longer trip, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:That's the thing I think. I just don't go on enough long trips.
Speaker 1:I'd probably do it more if I went longer, yeah, yeah, if you go to Europe, would you do it?
Speaker 2:Probably. Yeah, I would think so. I mean, especially if it was with the family.
Speaker 1:Yeah, family, yeah, yeah, that'd be hard not to probably, right yeah, you have to bring so many things.
Speaker 4:We went for a week to europe. We checked, yeah, we did. We both check, we both checked? Yeah, or did we check one? Did we do the combined checked bag?
Speaker 2:was that we did that one time the combined.
Speaker 4:We each took a carry-on and then had a combined check bag with all your hair stuff and see I think, okay, the hair checked.
Speaker 1:Bag of hair with the bottles yeah more than three fluid ounces jumbo is like jumbo size yeah they're like the costco, like yeah, bottles of shampoo yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think it goes either way.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it's certainly contextual.
Speaker 1:but yeah, I hear I get the not checking. I just Can I just For a second. I'm just gonna. I know we're wrapping up, but I'm gonna gripe about? No, let's gripe about it, the fact that, like, the answer's always money, because it's like if you pay to board early, then you make sure your carry-on bag has a spot.
Speaker 1:So then, you can take the carry-on. So that's like a guaranteed carry-on situation. If you pay to have your checked bag like, then your bag's secure in that way. But it's like it's always just going to be money that's going to be the thing that's most secure. And that's annoying.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean travel. It's already expensive.
Speaker 1:It's so expensive, they're just always adding fees. Yep and yeah, and they're limiting more and more, like what you get, like you never get a meal on a plane anymore.
Speaker 2:Really, you used to yeah, I don't know, I can't. I can't remember the last flight I was on where there was like something other than Pretzels Pretzels thrown at you.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, peanut. Well, yeah, they can't even really do peanuts anymore, right? Because of allergies.
Speaker 1:So it's like Pretzels and those little like Biscoff cookies, yeah, which are pretty tasty.
Speaker 2:I remember being a kid and thinking that was like so awesome when either my dad came back from business or, like my grandparents, went somewhere and they like brought back like those little bags of peanuts I don't know why I was like oh thanks, this is like so great yeah honey roasted or you know it was like cool thanks for bringing that yeah, how many anaphylactic shock episodes must there have? Been. I don't think it was the same, I don't think people were allergic.
Speaker 1:What happened to people? Yeah, people just like developed that allergy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know, but yeah, you don't get that anymore.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's like that and you're lucky if you get like a beverage service too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. The people on the exit row. It's like they ideally want to be people that are like strong and like able to lead someone through a crisis. It's like it's just like people that are like prissy and need more like leg room. Yeah. Like and they paid for it because I think people buy those spots now.
Speaker 2:Right, and then the stewardess takes, or the flight attendant takes more time to say no, remember, you're sitting in this row.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so Give verbal consent. When things happen, happen, you're gonna be the people that save us. Yeah, they take out their airpods and they're like sure right.
Speaker 2:Well then, when they come by me, they're like did you hear about the, the oxygen masks, sir? And it's like yeah I did, thank you, you know, because they always see the parents and the with the next to their kids, and so they make it a point to like put on your mask, let me make sure that you you know they want to check in with all the people that are next to the children yeah, I'm like I don't know who this kid is yeah, he just showed up.
Speaker 1:He's on his own. Yeah, what do you mean? Shit goes down. Yeah, he's on his own. He's like got it oxygen mask got it.
Speaker 2:Put it on first. Be selfish about it, yeah done, no problem I mean, this is a great way to send Josh off onto his bachelor party.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and he's not checking a bag. He's fun and fancy free.
Speaker 2:No kids, no skis, no large bottles of shampoo, but probably large bottles of other things. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh my god, I hope you have the best time ever.
Speaker 2:Me too.
Speaker 1:Thanks Han.
Speaker 2:And congrats on your festival and your documentary.
Speaker 1:Thank you. Thank you so special. Okay, well, should we do plugs, or did you want to do a plug?
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, I want to do a plug, so I didn't really get to before Just the whole team of out the doc I worked on, director Lisa Klein, who I've been working with for like 10 years. I edited her doc the S Word. She's an incredibly talented documentary filmmaker and kind of a second mother to me. And Doug Blush, producer, second father, both my mentors, my documentary mentors, and when I moved to Los Angeles I met them pretty quickly and they really showed me the right way, showed me the non-Hollywood way of making movies, but try to make them good still. And, yeah, shout out to Isaiah Hale, the cinematographer his partner Morgan.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and. Leslie. Silver and Mark Sawyer, of course. Yeah, social worker.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and all the silver and all the Leslie.
Speaker 4:Silver and Mark Sawyer, of course, social worker yeah, and all the silver Leslie Silver, who produced it I think this is her first major film production, but she's a social worker in Sacramento and, you know, is on the ground in where this story takes place and her whole family. It was just a really great time. So lots of talented filmmakers that deserve the shout out. Her whole family. It was just a really great time. So lots of talented uh, lots of talented filmmakers that deserve the shout out yeah, yeah, and thanks doug and lisa for taking us all around.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and then obviously we're gonna plug blanket forts.
Speaker 4:Oh, sure, yeah, continuing to provide us with music. We love it still. Yeah, blanket forts, blanket forts is actually going to be at my uh bachelor party.
Speaker 1:Oh, mike esposito so we actually going to be at my bachelor party. Oh, mike Esposito, mike Esposito.
Speaker 4:So we're going to be cranking his music the whole time.
Speaker 1:Nice, nothing else Just our intro song, just our theme song.
Speaker 4:Just our theme song.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Not the rest of his discography Perfect.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:And John any plugs reached out and we have that'll be a teaser for some of our next episodes of some how wise is it? Questions now that we've decided on it, but you can always reach me at buts butzjonathan j-o-n-a-t-h-a-n.
Speaker 1:at gmailcom yeah, and yeah, I'm kelly again, and if you want to contact me, work with me, send in some how wise is it questions, um. My website is kkpsychotherapycom. Um, and yeah, you can send me an inquiry there on the contact page. And, yeah, we'll, we'll see y'all. You know, we'll be speaking to y'all next week. So, yeah, have a, have a great one have a good one, take care everybody take care so yeah, have a great one, have a good one, take care, everybody Take care.