The Wise Mind Happy Hour
Two therapists musing about the idea of an inner wise mind and how to connect with this psychic space in different contexts.
The Wise Mind Happy Hour
Boring Yet Wise
Boooooooring...have you ever had that thought? Well maybe it's time to dig deeper. Join us on our journey of exploring the wisdom behind the human emotion commonly referred to as "boredom," and the surprising value that can come from embracing it.
- music by blanket forts -
Okay, welcome to the Wise Mind Happy Hour Podcast. I'm John and right next to me is Kelly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm Kelly.
Speaker 1:And, of course, we have our producer, josh, with us.
Speaker 3:Hello, I am invisible. Well, I guess you're probably not going to be watching this. We're recording video, but we're not really going to start showing the videos yet. We're posting little snippets, but we're not really going to start showing the videos yet we're posting little snippets. So I actually deleted the last video I filmed, which I immediately regretted it because I thought it could be sentimental, but anyway, oh, you did delete it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because they take up so much space, so I can't keep them all, but I realize I can compress them to a smaller format and archive them all.
Speaker 2:Yeah, let's get way into these details.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I compress them to a smaller format and archive them all, or even let's get way into these details. Yeah, I love it. It's good to see both of you, because I haven't seen you all in a while. I know it's been a minute and so we had the you all had the mini episode, which was amazing. Yeah, no, it's so good to see you I know tell us what you've been up to before the show, we were talking about my life as a parent.
Speaker 3:As always, that always comes up but two things that were talking about my life as a parent.
Speaker 1:as always, that always comes up. But two things that were really huge my youngest son, shane, who's seven. He was in a it's called a showcase, which is like basically the grade kind of puts a performance together, and so he got to remember some lines. He was it was a nautical theme underwater type situation and he was the first mate so we practiced his lines at home. He got up in front of everybody, got up in front of a microphone and he was in an auditorium.
Speaker 1:It was like a big deal so proud parents moment there and I think he was so like there was a moment where he like saw us in the audience and he like lit up and was like so excited. So that's so nice um, so he was great doing it and, uh, remembering his lines. Like you know, practicing at home with his brother was really nice too so it was really funny.
Speaker 1:There were two parents in front of us kind of know each other and and we've been to social uh engagement together, and kim and mike were sitting in front of us kind of know each other and and we've been to social uh engagement together and kim and mike were sitting in front of us, their their child, nate, was in the in the play and afterwards everybody's clapping. And then kim turns to me and she was like, yeah, it was great, she did amazing. I kind of got lost in the plot a little bit and I was like what plot? I was like plot. I was like I mean, there there was like a theme Plot's a little bit. You know much, but it was good. And then my oldest son had this basketball tournament and I was telling you they got to the championship game and they lost, which actually was maybe more meaningful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, character building for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so they lost by one point, which was pretty heartbreaking.
Speaker 2:I hate to see it. But pretty heartbreaking, I hate to see it. You love to see the resilience.
Speaker 1:Tears for sure, but they were all talking each other up and the parents were there and we had an outing after for pizza. They were all there for one another Team dinner. Yeah, and then I had family visiting. It was just been a busy, it was busy. And now I had family visiting. It was just been a busy, it was busy, and now I'm traveling soon.
Speaker 2:So Nice and where are you going Mexico? Oh, did I know that.
Speaker 1:Maybe, I don't know we're going for spring break.
Speaker 2:I don't know if we talked about it.
Speaker 3:My kid's spring break Come on.
Speaker 1:That's exciting, mexico I know we're leaving on Sunday.
Speaker 3:Whoa, whoa crazy.
Speaker 2:Cancun, cancun.
Speaker 4:I like the head shake of it Puerto.
Speaker 1:Vallarta oh.
Speaker 3:I've been to Puerto Vallarta you have yes wait, did you go, josh, a long time ago?
Speaker 1:yeah, it was a long time ago.
Speaker 3:I stepped on a bee it was fun though. I think we have bottomless smoothies um.
Speaker 1:I was like 11 okay wait, did you step on the b and then get stung by it?
Speaker 3:oh yeah, oh my god I killed the b and in the process got stung by it. Got stung by it, were you allergic no like did you just got stung a lot as a kid, if a? Bee stings you, it dies anyway you have you seen b movie with um? I was gonna say john travolta with jerry, yeah, I know, but the audience doesn't know that it doesn't know that, so b movie slap.
Speaker 1:I like that you said I like that you uh said bottomless smoothies, because when my kids felt like that at the time because for spring break, the past couple years we've met with my um, my sister-in-law and brother-in-law, and they're two kids and their girls are the same age as my boys and literally it's just a graveyard of plastic cups around the pool Because it's like they're just ordering lemonades and strawberry virgin daiquiris.
Speaker 1:And then it's just like they're not finishing any of them. Yeah, so it's just like cups galore all over the place. I feel like I'm like picking them up constantly, but it is. It's like bottomless. I love it. It's like a kid's dream to just be like having these. Wow, so wait, so this is a callback now, because we're not going to check a bag. Remember we did. How Wise. Is it and you're going for a week, not a week. We're going to be there for four days.
Speaker 2:Okay, four days is the top of the pushing it.
Speaker 1:I know we're pushing it, but it's a callback to that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally yeah. This weekend Josh didn't check and I did check and then on the way back they made him check.
Speaker 1:They forced you.
Speaker 4:For free.
Speaker 2:For free, for free, and it is true. This is going to be an ongoing, like it's free.
Speaker 1:With all of our travel experiences. It's going to be we're going to call back to this.
Speaker 2:Wait, did I check a bag? I did.
Speaker 3:You did A shared checked. Yes, because we were going to With all your hair stuff, and I did have because it's a wedding and I need my blue dryer, my straightener.
Speaker 1:And the big bottles of shampoo.
Speaker 2:And the big bottles of shampoo, which actually we forgot the shampoo, so we had to go to Ulta and grab some Amateur hour and. I forgot sunblock as well, you talk a big game. I almost think in some ways it's growth for me to forget shampoo or not to forget shampoo, to forget sunblock, because I honestly, at one point in my life had like a mild addiction to sunblock where I like could not go even for a second outside without I think I was at the tail end of that.
Speaker 1:Maybe, yeah, probably yeah, when we work together coach myself into like it's okay, because we had like a rooftop and I think I remember some moments of maybe not being able to go to the rooftop of the building that we worked at because of yeah, because I was like no sunblock granted, it was like, as if we live in.
Speaker 4:It was like december 12th.
Speaker 2:But no, I don't I know because it's like when I hear these dermatologists out there, you know, oh, some like every day always need some block, like I, I get like very fused with that and I I struggle to like be in touch with my wise mind and recognize, like you know, five minutes in the sun is okay, you know it's.
Speaker 1:Sunblock every day.
Speaker 2:Yeah, do you wear it every day.
Speaker 1:No, even if you're inside.
Speaker 2:Josh wears it most days.
Speaker 3:If I go outside.
Speaker 2:Yeah. In the summer but don't you get it through the windows?
Speaker 3:See, I don't think I in the summer, but don't you get it through the windows.
Speaker 2:See, I don't think I think about this because I live with you, but I but I try to ignore it. But also I do also, on the side, have a competing theory that, like, dermatologists are just like paid like to sell products to sell. Yeah, because they tell you you need more and more and more sunblock and you need it more and more and more sunblock and you need it more and more and more often every couple years they're like oh, it's every hour now, all of our dermatologist listeners are unsubscribing.
Speaker 2:I know I feel bad saying that, but there's a part of me that's like someone's gotta call it here.
Speaker 1:Like you slather it on your face, a good sunblock and you're done you know, left to our own devices long enough, we're going to disenfranchise every single person from listening to this. Totally.
Speaker 2:Which is great. What have you two been up to? We're going to cancel a lot of businesses Traveling. You went to Charleston.
Speaker 4:Yeah, we went to Charleston for a wedding last weekend. Did you go to any? Don't they have like graveyard stuff, yard stuff?
Speaker 1:there like a bunch of like haunted stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, kind of like new orleans. Um, yeah, I feel like when sarah and I went, that was like a big deal at night we were doing. We didn't do that either, but people were doing that. Yeah, we we were. We ate a lot of food and walked around and then just did wedding events because we had. We had the friday wedding event or the. No, the wedding was on friday, it was a friday wedding actually. So there were events Thursday. Josh is smiling at me.
Speaker 3:I'm thinking about the Cobb salad, oh wow.
Speaker 2:Josh and I got into an argument about Cobb salad. That lasted for way too long, but we resolved it. Yeah, we did. It was like long story short. Josh doesn't want me telling him what to order at our restaurant. I can take that note.
Speaker 3:I was going to order the Caesar salad because I felt a little fried, food-ed out, and I never order a Caesar salad, even though I kind of love them, because I kind of feel like it's a dumb order, Like it doesn't have that many proteins and I'm always making fun of myself in my head or judging myself. So I was like, confidently, I'm going to get the Caesar salad and there's two salads, and Kelly said well, you know, there's a Cobb salad. I feel like that would be better.
Speaker 2:I said what about that? No, this is what Josh said. This is what he said.
Speaker 4:Okay.
Speaker 2:You go, there's not a lot of salad. I'm craving salad and there's not a lot of salads on this menu, and you had previously just mentioned the Caesar, that you're thinking about getting the Caesar. You're like I'm craving salad and there's not a lot of salads on this menu, so I go. What about the Cobb Like? In addition to the Caesar. But the thing is, there was a part of me that was like breaking down at the idea that you thought I was body shaming you or food shaming you, because I was not I was looking around at this applebee's style place, thinking their caesar salad is gonna be disgusting, it's gonna be inedible.
Speaker 2:And a cob salad has avocado, tomato, cucumber spring mix as opposed to like dry romaine, like there's maybe gonna be more to it. And I didn't even say you need to get the cob.
Speaker 3:I just said like think about the cob and I got on your radar so I got the cob. It was probably better than the caesar salad would have been and I felt annoyed because I don't like being told what to do and I can hear that honestly like I I can. I know I don't like that either, because I didn't even think you were body shaming me.
Speaker 2:I purely just felt annoyed and no, I know I can be a know-it-all on many things, food definitely being one of them, because I'm a glutton and I'm obsessed with everything tasting really, really good. So I can tell you, on a menu like what I think is going to actually taste good at this kind of place in Charleston, south Carolina, what kind of salad might be remotely delicious in a place that, like kind of doesn't do salad. So I mean I can take that note that you don't want to be told what to order.
Speaker 3:Well, I can take the note that the Cobb was better, because it probably was. I didn't get to try the Caesar, but also you did say there's not a lot of salads.
Speaker 2:There wasn't, and I was kind of like, yeah, there's a Caesar, and also, what about the Cobb? That's really what I said. John thoughts I'm going to die on this cross.
Speaker 1:I like salad.
Speaker 2:I like that salad.
Speaker 4:I like to eat salad.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I don't know, I have no thoughts on this.
Speaker 2:If someone suggested a menu item to you. Let's call it your partner.
Speaker 1:Let's call it my wife. How would you feel If they suggested something to me? Yeah, how would you feel if they suggested something to me? Yeah, um, I, I don't, I maybe indifferent, I don't know like. If it was just kind of like, yeah, maybe you could try this, it's kind of like, all right what if this person's a little bit of a know-it-all?
Speaker 2:then maybe annoyed, yeah, maybe annoyed I think that was probably part of the mix. And also you're stuck for a weekend like doing all.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's the thing, especially if you're like eating out a lot and you're not getting like the base, I feel like maybe then you're probably more. I would probably be more emotion-minded if it's like god, we've been eating out all weekend or something like this and it's like I'm sick of yeah, yeah, and it's hard.
Speaker 2:It is like Charleston, south Carolina, is going to have different food than we're used to. Definitely more fried food, more Southern food, of course, which is delicious, but, yeah, it can be a little bit hard to feel like you're getting those nutrients in.
Speaker 1:I don't like being told what to do though.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean. I don't like being told what to do though. Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 1:I don't either. Who does?
Speaker 2:That's why I told you what to do.
Speaker 1:I like telling people what to do. I don't like being told what to do. That's kind of more my lane. That's more my lane for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm a therapist.
Speaker 1:What are we talking about today? Boredom?
Speaker 2:Yes, today. Today we're going to talk about boredom. Yeah Well, maybe should we like loosely kind of define it. Should I look up?
Speaker 1:a definition? Yeah, let's. I mean.
Speaker 2:I'm bored already. Let's look up.
Speaker 3:I'm bored, thinking about boredom I'm already bored about this episode. This isn't going to be enjoyable for anyone At all.
Speaker 2:At all. Oh wow, I love, you, love to see this Boredom, the state of feeling bored.
Speaker 3:Oh my.
Speaker 2:God, it's like we need something more secure.
Speaker 4:Hold on, sir.
Speaker 2:Okay, okay, the state of being weary and restless.
Speaker 1:Restless.
Speaker 2:Lack of interest.
Speaker 1:Lack of interest?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and then synonyms. I don't even think this is a word blase blase it says b-l-a-h-s I don't know that's.
Speaker 3:Is that yiddish?
Speaker 1:maybe um on we restlessness, weariness, doldrums, listlessness, tedium, um yeah, okay, so like weary due to lack of interest for some reason, the restless speaks to me yeah, because I feel like that's more like sometimes I like sitting and doing nothing, but I'm not restless, so maybe I'm not bored in that moment yeah, yeah, maybe that's really contentment, yeah or like this is like some silence that I'm okay with yeah or like I, I need to just be not doing anything, but it doesn't.
Speaker 1:But that restless thing sticks out to me because I have had those moments where it's like looking around and then I get up and I'm like pacing yeah maybe that's more, because when I think of boredom, the first thing that comes to mind is like somebody, just like sitting and like staring at the wall, but like you could be content doing that totally.
Speaker 2:It's not that restless maybe. Yeah, I think you're right. I think that, like lack of stimulation, lack of interest going on, what makes it boredom is being elitist with that yeah like resisting that kind of like empty space. So yeah, it's like by that we're saying it's some form of resistance to like an absence, I guess. Yeah, I wonder, like I'm trying to think, if I've felt bored lately and I do feel like I probably feel a little bit bored every day at some point but you brought up a good word too.
Speaker 1:Before we started recording was the things feeling like tedious yeah yeah, I feel like there's boredom because you could be doing something and putting your energy into something, and so maybe not as much in my case, like not as much the restless, but like, oh, I'm doing this. It's like rinse and repeat all the time, yeah, which feels boring, which is probably more of the lack of interest in what I'm doing. It's more of just like the repetition of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:I don't know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the repetition, and it's almost like you know. It's's funny though, Like I sometimes can be a robot and like, for instance, with like food I can eat the same thing, Like during the week. Josh and I are like pretty regimented with what we'll make for dinner and have for lunch, and I can really like that.
Speaker 1:The structure of that.
Speaker 2:The structure of that for a long time and knowing what's coming, knowing what it yeah.
Speaker 1:You don't have to think about it, you just know it.
Speaker 2:Just know it, I can trust it. But lately I've been a little bored with one of the lunch meals we'll do, which I make it, and I told Josh this today where I was like I kind of can't even like look at the salmon right now, Like I just think I don't know if this is quite boredom, but it but it did like what you're saying, the tedium and repetition, and like kind of going through the motions with no like interest in it, and I used to be so like Ooh, I can't wait to have like a salmon taco or like put salmon on my salad or whatever. And now I'm sort of like Ooh, I'm just kind of getting this in getting to the next, which I really don't like.
Speaker 2:So there is like a boredom there and I'd be so curious, like let's say, I didn't problem solve and I didn't start making a different dish which I've kind of already resolved to do. But let's say I was like I'm going to explore this boredom. What if I make the salmon, say tomorrow, and like sit with my distaste for it?
Speaker 2:I mean it seems so pointless with this, with salmon and like explore it. I mean, it seems so pointless with this, with salmon and like explore it. Like what about the salmon is bothering you? I mean, maybe we're learning in this area? This is unnecessary.
Speaker 1:I know, it's just funny to think about like, I have this picture of you sitting in front of a plate of salmon question mark bubble like question mark and just like and salmon can be boring. Yeah, oh yeah, just as addition of itself, it can just be very it is boring, so it's like it's just like a funny yeah for some reason making me laugh.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I mean, it's ridiculous.
Speaker 1:But but I understand the leaning into it though.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like what would it? Well, what's the utility of boredom? What does it give us? Because it's important for people to be able to be bored.
Speaker 2:Right?
Speaker 1:Well, they say that I guess that's me as a person saying what I feel and believe. Saying what I feel and believe like it is important for people to have the tolerance of not having something to do right.
Speaker 2:That's interesting. If you tolerate it, then it turns into something else. Yeah, I don't know, it's like stillness yeah, I'm also probably projecting that.
Speaker 1:I'm hoping eventually my kids will understand this concept because it's hard yeah. For children to like be bored, it's just hard. They want to like do things all the time.
Speaker 2:Right. Well, I think it's like almost like the conversation around, like kids need to be bored.
Speaker 1:People need to be bored.
Speaker 2:I think they're probably defining it more like having nothing to do and just being in that state and maybe they're going in less for, like you know, defining the illities portion, which is fine I think. But yeah, like they say, I've been hearing this. I'm sure I heard this on a podcast, but, like people in general are less bored now, which is not a surprise with how much you know, like, stimulation there is constant, just this phone you know, constants. I, of course I like look tonight, but isn't that?
Speaker 2:my phone bores me well, well, isn't that interesting. Even through all these methods of simulation, it can be boring.
Speaker 1:I almost think I get bored more I feel like people get an s I get anesthetized to it, it, it. I think it's like a quick, easy thing to like. I don't feel stimulated right now, so I'm going to do it. But even that doesn't even give me the same juice anymore, so it's like boring.
Speaker 2:It's like or the same interest yeah, it's like to me. It's like, let's say, when you're in college, you have like do you have like four full weeks of Christmas break In college? I think I had like literally a month off. Yeah, you might get a couple weeks right, which is great and it's like not enough to get like a job or anything, but it's like you go home.
Speaker 4:Yeah, you get a couple weeks.
Speaker 2:If you like, flip on the TV into week three of that TV is going to be like not that interesting. But if you've been, like grinding it out for finals, and then that first day you get home and you can relax and you can like watch TV for a couple hours before you like go out with your home friends or something very different experience.
Speaker 4:Right.
Speaker 2:It's like doing too much of something, even if it is kind of stimulating and entertaining, can create boredom.
Speaker 1:I don't even know where I'm going with this, but I just feel like sometimes people just are doing things to occupy their time. But are they really not bored?
Speaker 2:Are they even more bored in some ways than it would be if they just it's like I'm occupying my time with these things. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Whether it be the screen or the, I don't know, then this would be like for me, or where my therapist mind would go, is like are any of those things value aligned for you, right?
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like, are you really committing to your values when you're sitting and you're feeling restless and like going on your phone? Yeah, is that more meaningful? Or would you rather be? Let's say you're going to be bored, no matter what, would you, what activity would give you more meaning? Doing it bored Does that make?
Speaker 2:sense yeah.
Speaker 1:Like what would give your life more value.
Speaker 4:Right.
Speaker 1:Would it be playing an instrument or would it be being on your phone? Let's say both are boring, right, and that's just baseline. Yeah, that's where kind of my mind would go, and I think that's what I sometimes try to do with myself when I feel restless I could go to the thing that's maybe easier, that's more accessible. Or it's like why don't I actually get up and like sift through my record collection and actually like put on an album that I haven't listened to in a while and I might be bored because I'm still sitting and just listening to music.
Speaker 1:I don't know, you know, or?
Speaker 4:like.
Speaker 1:And I even I was watching my youngest son yesterday play basketball and we were playing together and then I was like I'm going to take a break and I was just kind of like sitting there and I was like kind of like bored and so I picked up my ukulele. I haven't picked it up in months.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But I didn't know we were going to talk about this today. But now that I'm thinking about it, it was like that was actually kind of a meaningful experience, because it was just like I did something different. I still felt energy. I didn't want to play basketball with him, but I was watching him, but I still felt like I channeled it into something that had maybe meaning.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Maybe I'm going off on a tangent here.
Speaker 2:No, no. I think it's interesting to like that dialectic right. Can I like accept that I'm bored here and in this boredom, do something aligned with a value and just see what happens see what happens like? Is the like relearning an instrument or kind of like, re shaking the dust off?
Speaker 1:right ukulele.
Speaker 2:A lot of is there something boring to that at times sure and tedious, and tedious, yeah, but maybe if it's, if it's meaningful, it makes the boredom a lot more tolerable. I think you know, I think that's a very helpful way to manage it. For sure, yeah, thinking like because you know, something that's coming up for me is like yeah, I'm obsessed with podcasts, obviously, and I used to really love this was especially before I met Josh, but I used to really love having like a not a long car ride, but like 20, 30 minutes to get somewhere, putting on a podcast and just like getting into it, almost feeling like I'm like driving in my car with these podcast hosts and like really enjoying them. And lately, like it has not hit the same when I'm in the car. I don't really know why, but It'd be funny if you're listening to us.
Speaker 2:Yeah I'll listen.
Speaker 1:You're like I'm listening to myself and josh, it's just not hitting, it's simply she's not hitting the same way but I feel like I'm with myself but you know what, honestly, you're bringing.
Speaker 2:But an actually interesting point, because it hasn't changed since I became a podcaster.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow, and I'm watching how this sausage is made. Yeah, now you know.
Speaker 2:I mean, there could be something to that.
Speaker 1:There could be something to that, you're right.
Speaker 2:Now that I'm a mogul podcaster.
Speaker 1:A mogul.
Speaker 2:Yeah, god, that is really interesting to think about.
Speaker 1:It is God that is really interesting to think about it is.
Speaker 2:But you know, it's like I'm almost experiencing a little bit of grief with it because I used to get so much joy out of that.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That it's sort of breaking my heart a little bit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like the zhuzh is out of it a little bit and it's like man that used to be my go-to when I was bored. That was like my thing Totally.
Speaker 2:I mean, podcasts have almost, like, kept me from boredom and maybe that's something I need to look into, or kind of the universe telling me like it's time you started to feel some of this. You know, have it be silent in the car, be in that space yeah but then a willful part of me is coming up. That's like I meditate almost every day. I'm allowed to fill the other space, but I know there is a lot of value in silence, Like I know that, and being in the stillness, not resisting.
Speaker 1:you know they'll say sometimes like oh, if you want a mindful moment, like, go in the longest line at the grocery store and like wait when you check out and I see the value and all that stuff and I'm not really doing it yeah well, but I also wonder too if, like, we're never bored, then are we ever really truly like experiencing something to its fullest because we're so stimulated all the?
Speaker 2:time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, we're over stimulating it's like I gotta have moments in my life, maybe even periods, where it's like I'm bored, so that when those things really do hit, that are like amazing, they like really hit.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Well, they also say, ideas come out of there, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, daydreaming too, right, that can come from boredom, and daydreaming is really super important. Yeah, like.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:For people to let your mind go and wander and Right, yeah, well, now I'm thinking with the podcast thing.
Speaker 2:I'm like should I? I mean, maybe something worth me trying is exactly what you're saying. You know, okay, I'm in this moment I'm not feeling so stimulated by this thing that used to stimulate me so much. Do I need to think about like a more value aligned activity or even a more value line podcast? I don't know, but it's like, what could I do with this moment that really is meaningful? To me even if it's not super comfortable or entertaining, right? What's meaningful as I drive in this car?
Speaker 2:or just be bored in the car or I mean even that is more meaningful, probably because it's like holding space and not needing to be so stimulated yeah, reactive to it can I be spacious? Yeah and let that be and accept.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, acceptance is incredibly value line for me and I mean a lot of people don't want to be bored because they don't want to sit with their own thoughts, they don't want to sit with their own emotions, right?
Speaker 1:I mean it's all like control and escape moves, like I always talk about right like a lot of people fear not having things to do one because boredom is just uncomfortable, but also like, wow, if I really sit with myself, do one because boredom is just uncomfortable, but also like, wow, if I really sit with myself, I'm gonna have to sit with some memories and thoughts and feelings and things that have happened to me and you know like, yeah, so I think boredom is very people are very averse to it because if we're not constantly like moving or doing things I mean I think there's so many reasons, right people might feel like they're not being productive or they're not and then they like shame themselves and all that stuff, but also just like, wow, if I really sat with myself.
Speaker 1:That's like really terrifying for a lot of people right but also so fruitful like yeah maybe that's a function of boredom.
Speaker 2:it's like it lets all your shadows come up and if they don't come up you can't work through them, you can't, and they'll bubble under the surface and unconsciously kind of control you. So, yeah, it's like I, like I'm thinking now, even in the clinical sense, like when a client comes in or I'm dealing with this or a colleague is consulting with me or whatever, thinking about this act piece and maybe join that with you know, talk to me about where the boredom is coming up and when it does. What does that sound like? What does that look like?
Speaker 1:Because boredom isn't really a good descriptor at all. No, I actually think it's kind of confusing it's really yeah, somebody says they're bored going on. Yeah like, what are your thoughts, what are you feeling?
Speaker 2:are you sad? Are you scared are?
Speaker 1:you because we language it as I feel bored, but it's like okay, but what? That doesn't tell me anything right.
Speaker 2:I once another therapist told me like that she believed. I think laura tolan told me this shout out, shout out to laurie. Um, that boredom is like disconnection from yourself in some way, and I think that's so interesting. I don't know if I've ever like successfully used that concept for myself or in a clinical setting, but I'm interested in it. You know, like if you're connected to yourself, or more like connected to your wise mind, empty space, I think, is easy to tolerate.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, the wise mind is is infinitely capable of tolerating that. It's when we're disconnected from that and more emotion-minded, more egoic, a part of us might say like this is bad, this is bad. This is bad, this is not enough, you gotta change yeah, it's interesting that you're not so.
Speaker 1:Boredom is when you're disconnected from yourself. Yeah, yeah, which is funny because my mind went to and you must have. This is like an inception or something, because didn't you pre-show mentioned Mad Men?
Speaker 2:Yeah, josh and I just finished it. I had already seen it, but we just watched it.
Speaker 1:There's an episode where Betty Draper says to her daughter, because her daughter's like I'm bored and she's like only boring people get bored, yeah, and it was just like holy shit. That's like such a mean thing to say totally yeah, she has like a lot of good, oh yeah yeah, but it was like, for some reason, when you said that about like disconnection from self, like I don't know, for some reason that image came to my mind of like Betty Draper being like that's a you.
Speaker 1:That's a you problem Like you're disconnected from yourself because you're boring.
Speaker 2:And honestly, there is like wisdom in that message. But also as a parent, I'd like to but also just a beautiful harshness. Totally.
Speaker 1:Totally. Oh, my God, do you remember that line? It was probably pretty early in the seasons, but for some reason that stuck. Sally was so cute when she was little. Yeah, sally Draper, yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean she's cute always.
Speaker 1:but she was a villain in a movie I recently saw.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that Christmas movie. Yeah, a christmas movie.
Speaker 1:yeah, she's like a working it was a christmas movie with the rock.
Speaker 3:It was like and uh red one yes, oh my god yes, she's like the villain wow crazy.
Speaker 2:Kiernan shipka, that's who it is.
Speaker 1:Yeah I was like sir, who is that? And she was like that's salamander that's sally draper, salamander.
Speaker 2:What?
Speaker 1:it was yeah. I was like oh my god, wow. And then they.
Speaker 2:They changed the actor for bobby three different times. Do you know that?
Speaker 1:so many times crazy.
Speaker 2:I mean, at one point you're like really every again still a great show, though, yeah love that show, yeah, I love the part where he's like do you know anything about abe lincoln the grandpa? And he's like he learned to read by candlelight. So cute I love that yeah, no, but there is wisdom in that only boring people are bored, like. Like, if you're bored, can you call on yourself? Call on yourself. Yeah, that moment right and we?
Speaker 4:that's the nugget. Like what. What are you going to do?
Speaker 1:Right, it's not right. It's a terribly insensitive thing to say, but the nugget is like well, what are you going to do with it? Like you know, like I can't solve that for you, I guess Right, which is something that I will say to my children. Where it's like sometimes we're going to be, you know, if they don't have like a play date or something on a weekend, it's almost like the sky is falling, like if they don't have like plans, or like they wake up in the morning and they're like what are we doing today?
Speaker 1:And it's like we don't have any plans yet. It's like oh my God, what do you mean? And there's a little bit of it where it's like and we need to learn to just be in the house at times like without a plan, like, and we have to like, create our own fun even if it's not fun, just create something right like an experience like yeah so there is again that nugget of like.
Speaker 1:You have to learn at times that it's like people aren't going to entertain you all the time or people aren't going to like supply that for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just from like a parenting perspective. Well, that's a very that's kind of what a kid is saying, or I feel like maybe when I was a kid what I was saying it's like when you go to your parent and say I'm bored. It's sort of like outside world entertain.
Speaker 1:Oh, it's 1000% that.
Speaker 4:It's like what are you going to do about my problem?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and as a parent helping them almost like trust their own wise mind.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You can take this moment and take over and take some agency and the agency could be enjoy the stillness.
Speaker 1:It's funny, though, that you say that, because there have been so many times where I've either been with my friends or around my friends, or even like with Sarah, or sometimes I'll just blurt out, be like I'm bored. Totally oh so it's like you still do that as an adult sometimes where it's like even if you're not like fishing for them. Maybe there's something in you that still kind of is like do you have any good ideas? Like cause.
Speaker 2:I'm bored or it's like tv. I'm like what the hell am I gonna do to read my fucking book? Wait, don't you just raw dog it now I've raw dogged maybe 20 minutes an hour, but you're not doing a whole time. Come on the whole time I need you're missing out.
Speaker 4:I can't I'm kidding I, I'm too bored.
Speaker 2:I mean, but maybe I'll do that to mexico. Yeah, try it. Yeah, just stare at the back of the thing, total. I mean, yeah, I definitely do that where I'm like I'm bored. I don't want to be bored, right, this sounds boring. Doing work sounds boring. I finished my taxes yesterday and I was how much did I avoid it josh, so boring I did like a hundred other things yesterday earlier in the week, remember I was like I'm gonna do. Oh yeah, yesterday you were pretty efficient.
Speaker 3:once you started it, I radically accepted it.
Speaker 2:You've been avoiding it for weeks. I sat down and did it, but I've been avoiding it and avoiding it and avoiding it Classic killing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, avoidant. It's boring, anxious, avoidant.
Speaker 2:No, it just reminds me of all those times of just not wanting not do your charting, I've always been really opposed to labor.
Speaker 1:It's just so funny, though, I'd like turn over my shoulder. You'd be like cutting your nails with like a scissor 100%, I'd be doing anything that worked.
Speaker 2:Anything, and it's like I meet so many people or you'd be like, do you want to?
Speaker 1:go to Starbucks. I'd be like I got charting to do oh yeah, fish posh, let's just walk to Starbucks.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like even meeting people or clients who have, like you just mentioned. I can't relax right, I can't set down work and just relax. I'm like man, there's no level on which I can empathize with this. I can help you, of course.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But because we'll explore this.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 2:But I can't relate to like man, I just can't turn it off To me. I'm like I can't turn it on.
Speaker 1:It's so great.
Speaker 4:It's so true. That's really funny.
Speaker 2:I'm one of the laziest people in america and I don't even think I feel embarrassed by it like I. I do think that's a part of myself I don't think it's not lazy as that's.
Speaker 1:It's like I just judgmental and I think I do.
Speaker 2:I probably distort how effortful and painful certain things are going to be yeah, for sure. Because then it's like I sat down to do my taxes and I was like, oh, this is fine, Like whatever. Put on a podcast while I did them.
Speaker 1:Yeah and it's fine. No, I mean I don't resonate with the idea like you got to keep moving at all times either.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Like the hustle or whatever, right, I just I think, though that, that yeah, exploring like what would it be like to just like stop doing some stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's very fertile ground to explore with people yeah, totally, yeah I think the boredom can foster, because I'm getting thinking about my experience yesterday, like I think that sometimes it fosters in me. I don't always go there, but like I think I explore creativity more yeah, I'm more like with myself like I think I'm more likely like yesterday and I hadn't done that in a long time, but like picking up an instrument, like that's more of a creative endeavor, or like drawing.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Which is something I've always liked to do, like I'm more likely to do that when I really don't feel like I have anything else and I feel that restless energy. So sometimes creativity comes from it for me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, that's great, because creativity kind of needs boredom, a little bit like emptiness.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:To create from.
Speaker 1:I don't know.
Speaker 2:Because if you're so entertained, what are you going to create?
Speaker 1:Right. Does that ever spark anything in you creatively as a Boredom?
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, it's interesting because I work on documentaries, so I feel like it's a lot of watching the footage, like I can fill up all the time watching something that I haven't yet seen which I really enjoy. I don't think I feel bored watching endless hours of footage.
Speaker 1:Is there anything.
Speaker 3:Sometimes I do, sometimes I you know what, john, I think you're on to something here because I will watch, like, doesn't it get tedious? It does get tedious and I think I I like get off on this a little bit, but I do think, weirdly, I'm in this state of like okay, I'm bored, I'm bored, I'm bored, like shut up, and then someone says something interesting and I'm like I'm gonna pull that for the scene and I feel like and that's how I ultimately write. The movie is like the lines, that kind of guides you cut through the mustard but it's.
Speaker 3:But I feel like I enjoy that process so much that I don't really label it as boredom it's almost like there's like this threshold that things have to pass, to like yeah light me up.
Speaker 2:And when it's not happening.
Speaker 3:I'm kind of like still and waiting. It's kind of meditative.
Speaker 2:But isn't that amazing. What you're saying is you're watching footage and you're recognizing like this is not so interesting. But you're doing that mindfully, like almost like the audience would be bored by this. I would be bored by this, if I wasn't also aware that what I'm using, so it's like boredom with a purpose or something.
Speaker 3:And it's because I really enjoy this process. Obviously, there's times when I'm like actually bored, if, like maybe I'm listening for like an hour or two and like nothing interesting has been said, but I get that like feeling of like I want to find the needle in the haystack, and then sometimes I don't, but a lot of the time I do, but I mean that just shows, like, how important process is versus outcome, because if you're not fully engaged in the process, or at least trying to be engaged in it, even when it is tedious, yeah.
Speaker 1:You might not get those, you might miss those things right Right which turn out a more creative or a more rich again. I I don't know, but I was curious, for, as a, you're a creator, so it's like does that? Yeah, I don't know. I was curious about that no, it's, you're right.
Speaker 2:I think it's like if you have more of a preconceived script, even a little bit, or structure for a movie in the line of work you do, you will miss a lot. You might miss like story that emerges, or we might, as therapists, like, really, if we don't let ourselves maybe be sometimes even bored by a client and listen into that and be present in those moments, we might miss important story, important information, insight exposition exposition yeah, yeah. Basic facts yeah, I think definitely it's so valuable to embrace it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but it's hard because, like I think, on some level it is a little like painful right I gotta talk to my friend tommy about this and I want to have him on the podcast at some point. He's a teacher, he's an educator, the man has so many.
Speaker 1:He's just somebody who I envision just is never bored yeah he has so many hobbies, he has so many interests, and these are things that I feel like truly light him up. I'm sure he's bored at times in his life, but like it seems as though he fills his time with very meaningful things yeah so I'd be curious to see how he navigates boredom. And he'll listen to this. I know he will, and we're gonna get his feedback on it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he polishes rocks, I believe, so he polishes them. But he also has like a rock tumbler and like he has like geodes and things like that.
Speaker 1:It's like and then he'll like polish them. They'll look really nice and then he could actually like sell them if you want it, but he collects. Like he came to visit, like sell them if you want it, but he collects. Like he came to visit. He came to visit one time and after the visit he was, he came, my kids saw him for probably like I don't know, he arrived at dinnertime, spent a couple hours with my kids. The next morning we had some stuff to do, so he spent the morning with my kids. My kids started just referring to Tommy as as their friend. They were like they weren't like this is my dad's friend, this is what we were doing.
Speaker 1:Like sarah literally was like yeah uh, later in the day she was just like yeah, I was hanging out with my friend tom like that's he's like that really he brought.
Speaker 1:He brought fossils for my kids that he like found and things like you know. Like I mean, he's an educator, he's a teacher he's just like, he knows how to get he has that energy and just he knows so much. But anyway, yeah, he like will do these things. He's got like all these plants in his house. Does he have kids? He does, he has three. Wow, yeah, and he like just picked up like woodworking projects and like will do that.
Speaker 2:Wow, yeah, I know.
Speaker 1:We got to get him on. I wonder what he'd think of my laziness. Oh, he wouldn't judge that at all. We're actually going to go hiking in a couple weeks, so we'll have a lot of time to talk about it.
Speaker 2:Wow, that's great. I mean, yeah, I think that's so cool to like woodwork and posh rocks and bird watch and like all these things people do.
Speaker 1:I'm like, wow, it sounds so great I think it just took me back to like. The idea of the creativity aspect for me is like not that I'm doing all creative things, but I think sometimes boredom does can, can, can generate maybe yeah, creativity definitely.
Speaker 2:I think it definitely does and it's probably like essential to it.
Speaker 1:Yeah we could also just create more boredom and and rumination, yeah and dark, dark places.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know well, that's the other question. Is there a side where it's like, or some people inundated with boredom, and that's worth even exploring? You know times in your life you're really bored. What's going on there?
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I remember feeling really bored post-college. Before grad school, I was living at home for a bit.
Speaker 1:Okay. Did you go straight to grad school? No, I had one year off.
Speaker 2:You had one year off. Yeah and yeah, pretty boring. Yeah, I went straight to grad school, so it one year. You had one year off.
Speaker 1:Yeah and yeah, pretty boring yeah I went straight to grad school, so it was like a very small window yeah and I think I was just panicked in that window. I was like trying to save as much money as possible, and I was like, oh, I'm moving to chicago, like I don't know what I'm doing right, like trying to like get it together, get it together, but I could see how, like a year before, that would be yeah, did you work.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I did a bunch of like jobs that were like not meaningful and I didn't really enjoy I one of them was I nannied for this little girl for a bit, which was actually really fun but, it wasn't like meaningful, it wasn't, you know, like such a career move. You know it was more about like making money in that time, but um I didn't know that about you.
Speaker 1:Well, no, that's. Oh.
Speaker 2:That took a year off to the gap, yeah right your gap year before, uh before but I guess the gap years before college uni yeah, for college um, which I had never heard.
Speaker 1:I mean, that was not a thing when I was not that I'm a dinosaur, but like that just was not a thing like taking a year off before you go to school.
Speaker 2:It was just like everybody's going to school it's a big thing in europe, and then I think it suddenly became a thing yeah like after I was in college there was like one kid I remember I watched you who I knew that took one and I was kind of like weird, you know like yeah, and nobody was.
Speaker 2:If you were not going to college, you were going to trade school or you were getting a job like that was like the yeah thing that was happening from this guy, I think, went you know, taught English and somewhere you know kind of thing, some kind of like service work well.
Speaker 1:This might take us into the how wise is it question.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Because with boredom comes some dark places. Right, Totally so. This question actually comes from somebody who wrote in.
Speaker 4:Yeah, this is a listener.
Speaker 1:An old friend.
Speaker 2:How wise is it topic?
Speaker 1:Yes, this is an old friend, alexi Alexi. Thank you so much for reaching out and reconnecting long lost friend um and her question was how wise is it to either use webmd or google your health shit or problems?
Speaker 2:yeah, this is a great question and josh is going to join us for this a bit.
Speaker 1:So how wise is it to Google health?
Speaker 4:stuff.
Speaker 2:I wonder do either of you do this?
Speaker 1:I haven't done it in a while, but I've done it a lot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I do it constantly. What about you, josh?
Speaker 3:I used to have the mindset that it was never wise, yeah, and I would kind of just wait till my symptoms went away and they always would Like one time my knee was. Privilege yeah, white, straight Jewish. Privilege One time my knee was bothering me for about a year.
Speaker 4:Oh man.
Speaker 3:I remember my cousin, jake, shout out. Jake Barron came to visit me in Los Angeles and I was like limping around. He was like what are you doing? And then I kind of just waited for it to get better, like I couldn't run for a year, um, and I was like limping on and off and it just like eventually got better. That was probably my worst injury. Yeah, but I think since living with you you'll ask me I feel like a lot of the time you'll be perseverating over your various maladies. So, and at times like I'll just like google something, almost like not to like shut you up but like yeah, so you'll maybe feel at ease, hopefully, unless I like google and it's like it's cancer. It's obviously cancer.
Speaker 3:That's never the case, I feel like a lot of the times, a lot of the times, what I find on Google will make you put things in perspective Like, oh, this, you know, I can't even think of one example. Like this earache is, you know, just syphilis, or you know.
Speaker 4:I can't think of a good example.
Speaker 3:It's like something, like it's a bacterial infection. You're like oh great. It's just a bacterial infection.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:It's not cancer. So now I think I probably pay attention to my symptoms more just because there's someone around to share it with.
Speaker 2:And yeah.
Speaker 3:I think I look it up and just try not to perseverate, but I don't think it's always a bad idea. I don't know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think my knee-jerk reaction is it's a terrible idea, it's totally not wise and it's an emotion-minded thing. I think if I take a step back it's they can be wise. Yeah, no, I, I was saying I used to do it, probably a lot more, but I did google it and it was right on the money. One time where I had this bump on my hand and I was like what the like? All of a sudden I noticed it. I had. It was like over the summer I was playing baseball with my kids and I was like god, my wrist is like killing me. I was like I don't, what's the deal here? I barely did anything and then I like bend my wrist one way and there was like this bump and I was like yeah, oh shit, I was like what is that?
Speaker 1:so I googled it. Sure enough, ganglion cyst yeah and then monday morning I go to one of our doctors, right, one of our great psychiatrists that we work with, yeah, and. I'm like, hey, could you look at this? Gangly insists you might want to go get that checked.
Speaker 4:I was like okay, like this, actually like was like right on the money.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, totally. And it was like yeah, maybe this isn't the worst thing to like Google something.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, especially in this day and age where where getting in with a hand surgeon specialist?
Speaker 4:would take you a long time, long time.
Speaker 2:Sometimes it is a solace, or when you're like am I going to the emergency room for this? A quick WebMD, if you're thinking about doing that, could show you that something is normal or something is likely is pain in this area.
Speaker 1:What can?
Speaker 2:be the causes, and sometimes it is something pretty benign.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So you at least have a little bit of a sense of like it's not a guarantee that this is bad.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know and.
Speaker 1:Maybe it's intentionality, like what's your intention.
Speaker 2:That's the wise thing about it. Yeah, yeah, it's like. It's like, how do you use it?
Speaker 1:Are you looking for it to confirm that you have cancer Right Without a real type you know like, or are you? Are you?
Speaker 2:looking to have cancer.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Well, because it's like some of us can handle drinking alcohol Mm-hmm, and some of us can't. Mm-hmm you know, know, I think there is. Yeah, there is a bit of like a litmus test there with how do you engage with it? Is it a tool? Is it your holy grail?
Speaker 1:I'd be curious your brother's perspective. He's a doctor, well, actually my sister-in-law mentioned this.
Speaker 2:I think my brother dislikes it more than my sister-in-law, who's also a doctor. She was saying she's like I don't blame people these days for using it. She's like because the medical system right now is like pretty broken.
Speaker 1:I mean, that makes sense.
Speaker 2:And she's like doctors are so overloaded they miss a lot of things.
Speaker 1:Don't you think it's probably gotten more sophisticated since webmd first came out as well?
Speaker 2:well, yeah, because you can look up mayo clinic. You can look up yeah, so many other more like I feel like for a window.
Speaker 1:It was just webmd and literally, the algorithm was that everybody had cancer so you have a headache? It would yeah it would be like four you're always four clicks away from like that type of diagnosis kevin bacon from exactly it was six degrees of cancer but, that and and I'm not making light of that, I'm not making light of cancer or anything like that but I feel like that was very early when you could search symptoms. Yeah, that it was like that's kind of yeah, where it would funnel you right.
Speaker 2:And now I just also and that was probably even a liability thing- you know, they tell you it's the worst thing, and then you go get it checked out yeah webmd, because if webmd is all over the place being like you're fine, you know, I bet you right lawsuits like crazy.
Speaker 1:So there's even that you have to like because I would never go to webmd to look up something, I would just google right, 100, right, yeah, yeah yeah, and then I'll look for the male clinic entry usually, and those are usually pretty good I think it's been wise in certain instances, especially to what you were saying about, like infections, like having kids right, like yeah it's like just knowing, like oh, if my kid has strep, like how, how long do I keep him out of school?
Speaker 1:how long is he? Like like that can be really useful information that you don't have to make a doctor's appointment for. To be like, oh, I'm gonna have to keep him home from school for 24 hours until the antibiotic. Or, you know, like yes, yeah which that's like very useful to have versus waiting on a nurse to call you back, or something like that yeah, yeah or yeah.
Speaker 2:It's like can I, if I, let's say, someone takes an antidepressant daily? It's like could I take a tylenol with this? Could I whatever? Like you can make a doctor's appointment over that shit. No, just google it, just go to the internet or call your brother, or call my brother, which I definitely do. I mean I, I am on the border of I can handle the web mds, of it all, because I'll check and then sometimes.
Speaker 2:I'll perseverate and then I'll talk to my brother and he should be an OCD therapist, because really he does not give reassurance ever. He gives information and that's it. It's like because I have a bump on my wrist, a little tiny one.
Speaker 1:Is it a ganglion cyst?
Speaker 2:Well, so they don't really know. I don't know if it's a ganglion. I think it's like a little baby cyst and they're like just watch it. If it gets bigger, just have it removed.
Speaker 1:It's not ganglion.
Speaker 2:It's not ganglion like yours.
Speaker 1:Well, mine went to Yale, so it's definitely ganglion.
Speaker 2:No, but I yeah, um no, but like I'll, I'll ask him like what do you think it is?
Speaker 1:and of course, the answer I want to have is like am I gonna die from this?
Speaker 2:like that's what you're really asking yeah, is this the death toll? Yeah and he's very like. I don't really know. I mean, yeah, it could be yeah, you know he'll do that. I'm like what? And he's like probably not. But should we have? It checked out like that's how he'll be see, that's the, I think, the wise. We have it checked out like that's how he'll be see, that's the.
Speaker 1:I think the wise thing about it is having the checks and balances outside of yourself yeah how wise is it? It's when you're still in the rabbit hole and somebody's going to be able to pull you out of it, like you two were just talking about there, because sarah will always say to me she was like make an appointment and just get it checked out, wouldn't you? I would just rather know, wouldn't you rather just know?
Speaker 1:yeah and it's like that is always the dose of wisdom and medicine that I need, when I am maybe in my head about it and like I don't know, like I looked up these things and it could be this and it could be that, yeah, and then that's when she's knowing. Okay, you're, this is not useful. Make an appointment. Wouldn't you rather just know, because then we could do something about it?
Speaker 2:you know, which is hard to hear, but it's also like you're 100 right right and that, I think, is, across the board, helpful advice and wise, especially for people who are a little bit avoiding of the doctor, people like me who maybe over consume the doctor sometimes. We need the.
Speaker 1:You need a threshold of sitting with this before yeah calling anyone yeah, because I'll just try to like avoid the doctor yeah, I have moments of that I'll just kind of be like if I get a good night's rest, it'll probably be better the next day yeah, which I think the dose of that is healthy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure, like wait. A lot of times they're like if it, it doesn't go away reach out. If it changes, if it grows, if you watch it, trust yourself a little bit.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:If it's different, it's still bothering you. If it's still on your mind a week later, then you can call and ask.
Speaker 1:I used to do it all the time, though, when I, when I was 19, I had a collapsed lung.
Speaker 4:And so yeah, so.
Speaker 1:I had to have like uh, it wouldn't. It wasn't like sealing itself, because I got a chest tube and then they had to do like cardiothoracic surgery to like fix it. And my chest has never felt the same ever since. But like initially like I mean I was going to the doctor very regularly I was like like it collapsed again.
Speaker 1:I could tell it collapsed and it never did you know, up till you know it hasn't, but there were so many times where I was Googling like shortness of breath and you know, or at that time, like WebMD, like you know what's your pulse ox and this and that, because it just it did not feel normal and it still doesn't, not to the extent of like what it was, but why doesn't it? I don't know, I think it was just I probably just like a traumatic.
Speaker 1:I mean, they had to go in there you know, it was just in the chest wall yeah, well, yeah, and I have like scars, like a couple on my side and like a huge kind of like divot in my back from like the chest tube, but also like when they went in there and a lot of that like has led to like more like kind of kind of like chronic pain and like the way I carry myself and like my upper body, because my chest is just never fully anyway, but that was like a real, like me consuming the doctor a lot.
Speaker 4:Cause, I was just like.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, and that's the other thing. When a traumatic medical event happens, it's natural to check and be concerned and be extra worried and do every little thing that I felt in my chest.
Speaker 1:I was like here it is yeah, it's happening.
Speaker 2:This is it. What did it feel like when it did happen?
Speaker 1:well, I think I went. I thought initially I had a cold and I was in a like I couldn't like breathe. It happened on like a Wednesday night. I remember just feeling like I just didn't feel right and I went to bed Thursday I honestly felt like oh, it's just like a chest cold and I honestly felt like oh, it's just like a chest cold.
Speaker 1:Friday comes, I was walking to class. I couldn't make it to class, like I was in college and I couldn't make it In my camp. I went to a small school I mean, it was not a big campus and I couldn't make it. I had to stop. I like couldn't catch my breath. So I called my parents and I was just like I just don't feel right. And they were like this sounds kind of concerning. So they actually like drove and got me. I only went like two hours away from where my parents live. They got me and they um, took me to the doctor and they took an x-ray and then the doctor was like are you just like in excruciating pain right now?
Speaker 1:and I was like I just feel like I can't catch my breath yeah and she was your lung is like 96% collapsed and she showed me the and the other one's normal and the other one was fully inflated and she was like I think she was a little bit shocked that I wasn't hunched over and in all of this pain, I was like I just can't.
Speaker 2:Breathe, breathe yeah, and did she have any insight into what caused?
Speaker 1:it. Well, it's called a spontaneous pneumothorax and when she sent me to the emergency room, she's like you have to go to the emergency room right now. She sent me to the emergency room. I walked in the door of the emergency room and they were like, oh, you're the pneumothorax. And I was like how do you know? And they were like you're tall and skinny. And they were like there's something about that body type, that male, the age that I was at, and like just the frame and everything like that. That. They were like that.
Speaker 2:We knew right away that it would be you like a lot of eating disorder clients have that happen we were waiting for you to walk through the door because they were like your body frame. Yeah, weird weird, I know so next time I see like tall, lanky people, I'll be like did your lung collapse any day now wow that's wild isn't that crazy do they tell you to do anything to prevent it?
Speaker 1:no, because it was spontaneous. There was nothing to do to prevent it. But I'm not supposed to like go scuba diving ever or anything like that.
Speaker 2:The pressure might that's all I do is sc is yeah, I live on the coral reef, but when they took me to the hospital.
Speaker 1:Then they gave me the chest tube. There wasn't any room on like. They put me on like a trauma floor because there wasn't room on like a regular floor. Yeah, so it was like a floor where people were there for like a lot of like gunshot wounds and like knife wounds and people trying to yeah, like that type of thing.
Speaker 1:So those are some restless nights, yeah, but there was one guy walking around because, like, when you're to keep your lung inflated, you had to walk around with what looked like a car battery a little bit and they kind of like kind of like, kept the air, that equilibrium and the balance oh, and it was I don't know no but I was carrying it around and another guy because they were like oh, you got to get up and walk around.
Speaker 1:another guy was carrying one and he we were. We passed each other in the hallway and he looked at me and he was like gunshot and I was like no, definitely not, actually.
Speaker 2:Spontaneous new with a rex. Spontaneous new with a rex. Yeah, I'm just linking.
Speaker 4:But I should have said something like.
Speaker 2:I should have been like knife fight. Or I should have said something better. Totally I love how he was like why?
Speaker 1:did you do that? He was like yeah.
Speaker 3:Like he wanted to connect in you should have said I'm a little gangly.
Speaker 1:I'm gangly, yes it's just yeah so is it wise.
Speaker 2:It can be it can be, yeah, if you use it with some balance.
Speaker 1:I just told you that was a boring story no, I didn't think it was boring and our theme was boredom anyway.
Speaker 2:I know so if you felt any boredom during this episode. That was intentional that was intentional.
Speaker 1:That was intentional. Blame john okay, thanks everyone, yes and thank you, alexi, for reaching out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yes, we would love um suggestions for how wise is it? Topics or even suggestions for podcast topics for anyone.
Speaker 1:So yeah, you can reach out to john yeah, reach out to me, as always, butts butzjonathan at gmailcom.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you can reach me at my website, kkpsychotherapycom. Yeah, if you want to send anything there in terms of suggestions or if you want to work with me or anything like that, yeah, you can send me an inquiry from the Contact Me page. And yeah, also, josh might have some shout here sure, sure you can.
Speaker 3:You can reach me, I'll plug myself you can reach me at josh bear films. Bear josh b-a-y-e-r. Like the aspirin films, like the filmscom, you can uh, watch my films. You can access me, yeah, and um, as always, shout out to blanket forts for the intro outro music. He's got a new album out. Uh, it is called uh fyc.
Speaker 3:Wait for your consideration yeah is that I think it's fyc. Okay, I may. I think. I don't think I'm botching the acronym. It's great nice if you like electronic music. If you don't check it out, anyway, I don't even I'm botching the acronym. It's great Nice If you like electronic music. If you don't check it out, check it out anyway. I don't even think it's on Spotify yet, it's on Bandcamp, but it will be on Spotify.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, check that out, and thank you, blanketforts, for sure. And we will be with y'all next week.
Speaker 3:Take care everybody. Bye, Hasta la vista.
Speaker 2:The Wise Mind Happy Hour podcast is for entertainment purposes only, not to be treated as medical advice. If you are struggling with your mental health, please seek medical attention or counseling.