The Wise Mind Happy Hour
Two therapists musing about the idea of an inner wise mind and how to connect with this psychic space in different contexts.
The Wise Mind Happy Hour
Staying Wise in Partnered Life
Special guest Dr. Alisa Bayer (PhD) brings decades of couples therapy wisdom to this enlightening conversation about the hidden dynamics that drive relationship conflicts.
- music by blanket forts -
Okay, well, welcome to the Wise Mind Happy Hour. I'm Kelly.
Speaker 2:And I'm John. It's fancy seeing you here. Yeah, I didn't know you were going to be here today.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's crazy to bump into you like this.
Speaker 2:It's been a while, has it been a while? I don't know why.
Speaker 1:I just said that it kind of has been a while because we've been experimenting with the mini episodes. Right Our schedules have both been nuts.
Speaker 2:Pretty crazy. Yes, yeah, what have you been up to lately?
Speaker 1:Yeah, lately well, some wedding planning obviously.
Speaker 2:Wedding planning always.
Speaker 1:We had our band meeting and meeting with the wedding planner.
Speaker 2:When you said band meeting, you made me think that we were a part of a band Like we met A band meeting.
Speaker 1:We had a band meeting, Like Flight of the.
Speaker 3:Canary Chords style.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah.
Speaker 2:What kind of music is your band going to play?
Speaker 1:So well it's?
Speaker 2:Is there a genre or is it just like it's like a mix, okay.
Speaker 1:It's a lot of like motown. Um, so good, yeah, like it's gonna be really good. I'm, I'm so excited about the stuff we picked. Yeah, me too. Yeah, and josh is too right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm also and we actually are recessional song, the song that when we are finished with the ceremony and walking out, yeah, the guy's like, that's the song me and my wife had the, the director, really he's like I've never seen another couple do it because it's not your average pick.
Speaker 1:No, and I was so excited by that. I was like yes, all right we picked it.
Speaker 3:It's not the average white band, yeah I love average white band by the way
Speaker 2:yeah, great, plenty of that, okay, good yeah, pick up the pieces, but are you guys not gonna say what the song is? Are you gonna keep that close?
Speaker 4:to the chest. Okay, yeah, that's good, I like that. I ain't even told a lot of people yeah about the song choices nice my mom.
Speaker 2:Yeah, at least maybe tears of a clown spoiler alert yeah, our secret tears of no, no, no, there's no mingus
Speaker 4:um wait tears of a clown is um that's smoky.
Speaker 2:Oh, I thought smoky was the original.
Speaker 4:You may hear smoky over the course of the evening, but not in our ceremony.
Speaker 1:Spoiler nice yeah, yeah, we're doing. I don't know if you did this for your wedding, but we're doing that east coast style where it's like, right when you walk in the room, there's dancing and then you sit yeah, there's like a few, yeah, no we had a when we walked.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, we went in after the ceremony and then it was just like more. We had a playlist that was more like boss bossa nova and like a little brazilian. Like that was just kind of like cocktail hour and things like that but then we saved dancing more traditionally to to the after.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, which a lot of people do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yes yeah, so I think it'll be great love a wedding planner was so great it's talk about how wise is it to have a live band.
Speaker 1:It's so wise yeah, I know I think it'll be fun. And he was saying I think he put it well. He was like once you have one of our bands, he's like there's bands that are up there and they do a good job, but they're kind of like they're playing at a wedding. He's like our band. It feels like they're having fun with you, like they're in it too, and I and we have spoiler alert we've seen this band before at josh's sister's wedding future guests yeah, um, and they were incredible, like.
Speaker 4:Really it did feel like it felt like we were at a concert. It felt like you're at a concert and at a wedding.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it was very cool Well now I'm already.
Speaker 2:I was already excited and I was excited because in the past couple of weeks I got your actual physical invitation, which made me more excited, and now I'm hearing this. I just yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's gonna be great yeah so, yeah, a lot of the planning has gone so well, so it's stressful for sure but yeah what's new with you?
Speaker 2:I well, we were talking pre-game a little bit before. Uh, we recorded. So we took the boys to mexico for their spring break so we saw our nieces and my sister-in-law brother-in which was great and travel with children is always an adventure, yeah, you know, but it was great. It was great seeing them with their cousins and yeah, I haven't been to Mexico for man since I was like 20.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Just even doing international is just like another layer of yeah, just even doing international is just like another layer of yeah. But so many moments when you travel are just like ooh, I could really get emotional here. Yeah yeah. Like we had the worst turbulence coming into Mexico. Yeah, and my kids are like this is fun, it's like a roller coaster, and I'm like terrified yeah, I'm like going through my mind of thinking you know what I've lived a pretty good life. Like I've done some things, like I'm already like cataloging of like what are those plane crashes.
Speaker 2:That's like, yeah, where I went to, but obviously I'm here and it's fine but like yeah, air travel is tough right now. It's like everything's chaotic, I know it was very chaotic, but yeah, it was a great trip and it was really nice to have them, uh, be with family, but also just like have a break from school. So, yeah, that's nice. And then I went to the bulls game on Friday.
Speaker 5:So shout out Chicago bulls.
Speaker 2:They won and they're holding on to like a last spot, Like there's two like play in games to the, or two spots to do like a play-in game for the playoffs. So they are, they're there.
Speaker 1:Wow, did they play the Bucs?
Speaker 2:They did not. They played the Portland Trailblazers, which my sister-in-law and brother-in-law live in Portland, so we were excited to see that team because that's who they root for. But it was a school event, so like it's just like they book a section okay, which is literally, you could not be further away from the court.
Speaker 3:It's so high.
Speaker 2:I've done that. But the kids had a blast and my youngest son, shane, is obsessed with benny the bull. Oh so cute the mascot. And it was his birthday, not my son's so we got there early. He's already amped on a normal day he's amped, so we got there early.
Speaker 1:He's already amped on a normal day.
Speaker 2:He's amped, so we got there early and there was a photo. You could get photos with Benny. So we just got there in time, so we got photos with him and he has been nonstop talking about being a mascot. He wants to like be Benny the Bull Wow.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so this could be his trajectory. Is this his?
Speaker 4:career path Into being a mascot.
Speaker 2:And I'm into being a mascot and I'm all for it.
Speaker 3:I think I am all for it.
Speaker 1:So he's sleeping with his benny stuffy he's talking about it constantly, which is cute.
Speaker 2:It is super cute so they did a lot of like fun birthday stuff for benny at the game.
Speaker 1:So oh, that's great, I love that I know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, mascots, yeah, it's just a profession I never, I I never thought about as a kid. Right, it's out there, it's out there, people do it, and you want to hear something crazy? We actually looked up the pay. It's like $300,000. Benny gets more than that. Whoa, the Denver mascot apparently gets paid $650,000 a year, oh my.
Speaker 4:God.
Speaker 1:We're in the wrong career.
Speaker 4:I don't know what's the mat. What's the denver mascot?
Speaker 2:um rocky nugget he's rocky the raccoon he's a beetle um no rocky the he. What is he he?
Speaker 4:I don't know, is it a rock?
Speaker 5:no, oh, but he's an animal, but I don't remember what animal he is.
Speaker 2:A scapegoat. Yeah. Like my wife Sarah looked it up and was like I wonder how many mascots?
Speaker 5:make.
Speaker 2:Benny's up there, but that is the highest paid mascot. I don't know why.
Speaker 1:Wow, so Shane is actually making a wise choice. So Shane's going to make a huge.
Speaker 2:I love it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm going to retire early. Wow, I'm just banking on. He's gonna be benny, yeah might go retire now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, especially the state of the world and finances. Yeah, yeah, it's like it's not an imported product yeah, it won't be tariffed, that's true benny's domestic wow so yeah, so that's been going on wait, are you done with your?
Speaker 2:I keep thinking about this too. Are you done with your emdr?
Speaker 1:no, it's in two weekends, three, god I cannot encode that. Yeah, no, it's okay, I there was a goof with I was going to do it on a previous weekend and I had to change it. Okay, so that's part of why you're confused. But I'm almost there and then I have a little more supervision I'll do after that, but I'll be fully trained, got it? Um, yeah, yeah, that's been going well doing the EMDR trauma therapy Nice, loving that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my ACT fellowship. I just had it on Friday. I only have four more sessions of that.
Speaker 1:Wow. I know and then you're kind of certified.
Speaker 2:It's not really a certification. I mean, you just get like a bunch. I think I get like 45 CEUs for it.
Speaker 3:Oh, nice, I know, which is great, because then I don't have to think about it for my license for the next cycle.
Speaker 2:But man, it's been really in-depth and really like I mean you can read the books and everything. But it's like been great, like having the practitioners really talk about how in-depth they get in their sessions and like the case consultations and everything like that. It's almost like wow, I don't. Um, I thought I knew a lot and it was like well, I yeah like putting this into practice. I could do this in much more depth, so yeah, I love that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that's been good but I'm also looking forward to like the end of it, like because when I come out of it. My brain is like fried yeah, whoa, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:I always find that with things I'm really interested in, and then there's a lot of info because it's like I'm voraciously consuming all of it.
Speaker 2:It's exhausting by the end of it, right, and this is like via zoom. So I feel like that for me is another layer of like exhaustion of sitting in front of the screen and just staring at it intensely for three hours and then it's like when I come out of it I like kind of like this yeah totally yeah, well, exciting yeah okay.
Speaker 1:Well, maybe, as we're getting a little clinical, this is our perfect segue segue today we have a special guest on the pod dr elisa bayer um psychologist and social worker and therapist and, most importantly, josh, my fiance's mom, my mother-in-law.
Speaker 5:Welcome to the podcast so happy to be here. What an honor.
Speaker 1:Yes, we're so excited to have you and we're talking today about couples, couples therapy, relationships and the wise mind, and yeah so yeah, Tell us, tell us a little bit about your, your background. You know anything the audience might want to know about you.
Speaker 5:Well, I will say that I've been practicing. I will never forget, cause all I have to know is how old Josh is and I know your age, always, josh. So you're about to be 36. And I started practicing and done with all my education when you were like right before you were born. So I always remember sort of my timeline. And prior to being in private practice, I worked at Oakland Family Services. That was my initial training and that's a family service agency, and I worked with a variety of families, most of whom were actually referred through protective services. So it was really great training, being able to connect with people who, basically, were court ordered to come to therapy, oh yeah.
Speaker 5:And I got great experiences there and ran groups and individual therapy for a variety of different issues and then kind of had this insight that I really wanted to have the flexibility as a mom to not have someone really telling me what hours I was going to work. So I decided to be bold and daring and thought I'll try to go into private practice and if it doesn't work I could always go somewhere else. But I made that transition when I was pregnant with Josh. Wow yeah, Incredible yeah.
Speaker 2:That's such an inspiring move to just be like I'm just going to do this, and if it doesn't work, I'll just go back to like, yeah, that inspires me.
Speaker 5:I mean, yeah, I kind of felt like I would just try it, and if it, didn't work. There were the options for me Right, and I left with one or two clients that followed me and built from there.
Speaker 2:So wow, wow. And you've been in private practice ever since and built from there.
Speaker 1:So wow, wow, and you've been in private practice ever since. Wow, yeah, wow.
Speaker 5:Yeah, tell us about your practice now. Like, how do you describe it? Like if you were? I work with teenagers and older, not the only age group. I don't work with our children, even though I love children. That's not the age group I focus on and a wide range of issues love children. That's not the age group I focus on and a wide range of issues. People come to me a lot of relationship issues across the board, life transitions, anxiety, depression. You know all this stuff that we would think about when we think about why people might want to go for therapy and I do individual therapy, I do family therapy and I do couples therapy, but I'd say dominantly, couples therapy and individual therapy are the two modes that are most present in my day-to-day life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally. And yeah, tell us a little bit about your personal background, your fam I know all this, of course, but yeah, your family.
Speaker 5:Well, Josh is the oldest and. Yeah, and lucky Josh met the beautiful Kelly. And we're so excited to have her joining our family. They're such a great pair. Watching them has really been a very as a mom, we all want our kids to find someone that enhances their journey, and I honestly feel like you guys do that for each other.
Speaker 5:So I have three kids Josh, zach and Alex and it's a semi-prerequisite to be a therapist in a family. I'm kidding, but Zach is a social worker, alex is I am, and Josh is a film editor I love it. Podcast director. Podcast engineer.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I love it. Podcast director.
Speaker 5:Podcast engineer.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I engineer the podcast.
Speaker 5:Yeah, you do, yeah, and so, and I myself. I think part of my passion for couples therapy is I was in a long-term marriage Josh the kid's dad, we were together for a lot of years and I went through myself a pretty difficult, traumatic divorce scenario. But I honestly can say that so much of who I am in my work with people and it whether it is to help couples in marriage counseling to get to a better place that I'm very passionate about that or people to manage and deal with divorce and come out on another side and have it not be the D, which is dark and dreadful, dreadful and dreary. I try to make it development and discovery and find the lighter side of that. You know, I think sometimes when you're in this field, part of it is you choose, but part of it chooses you, and I think that a lot of my passion and helping people comes from my experience and what I want to bring to other people to help them in any kind of healing capacity I can.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5:I love that and I got remarried after 23 years.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but let's just be very clear that wasn't very clear.
Speaker 5:I was in a relationship with Jeff for 23 years before I decided last summer to get married.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so Congrats, 20 of those years, yeah, he had to like prove himself you know, went through a little trauma.
Speaker 3:So 23 years later I said maybe, maybe, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. Yeah, yeah, I love that. Yeah, yeah, I love that. I'm so glad you shared that part about your story and and, yeah, how that informs the way you practice and and your perspective on it, cause I feel that way too, I think like hard things I've gone through definitely inform the work that I do and you know it's like the, the spiritual part of it, you know, versus just the clinical and the framework piece um, yeah, I think it's an important thing and that's that's great.
Speaker 1:And you know, speaking of couples, we're talking so much on this podcast about our wedding and planning it, and lisa's like at the absolute center, like planned so much, done so much for us with the wedding, and I think it's going to be spectacular, largely because of you.
Speaker 5:So so, yeah, well that's my second passion, besides the kids my children, of which Kelly's part of the group.
Speaker 5:But I really like party planning. I mean, you know everybody will tease me and they say, do you want to leave therapy and go be a party planner? I said no, I really love what I do, but I do like making a party. I love the details. I don't find it stressful, I find it therapeutic. Actually, I love I'll be in sessions and then in between I can return an email for the to the caterer and then I go back. It's, it's very I love it. I love the creativity of it. But most importantly, I think it's about celebrating a moment, for whatever it may be, and bringing that creativity and heart and soul to it, you know, and enveloping the people who come to celebrate with us and to have them feel nurtured in the process too.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 5:That's kind of why I love it. It's probably an extension of therapy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally yeah. Yeah, we felt that. Yeah, party can be of therapy. Yeah, totally yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah, we felt that, yeah, party can be good therapy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, good old party.
Speaker 2:I'm always curious with couples therapy because it's not something I mean I maybe did a few times, but I'm just always curious, like in the room. Well, two things. One is kind of like do people typically come as like this person's? The problem in the relationship? Is that kind of like that happens a lot. Both people can feel validated and heard. I just feel like that would be for me very overwhelming to try to feel like. Who are we focusing on? Is this? Am I giving this person enough of your time? Is this? I don't know, just curious how you navigate some of those spaces.
Speaker 5:So I think that it really is about well, first of all, to answer your question. There are people who come in and definitely present it as yeah, I'm not here because I have an issue but, my spouse is the problem and they have the issue, I think more often than not.
Speaker 5:I don't want to say this is all the time, but when somebody is really centrally focused on telling me that right away, oftentimes it's a little bit of an indicator light to me that, hmm, I take a hmm. And sometimes, when someone's sharing that so readily, it's sometimes, in my experience, the flip. Interestingly, when I do see people where maybe there is one person who's, I'm going to say, struggling more. Maybe they're struggling with addiction, maybe they're struggling with something that is a very individual issue, oftentimes that's not the spouse or the partner who says, uh, the problem is all this other person. So I don't want to say all the time, but sometimes when somebody is really wanting to paint us like whole theory as to why they're not really there for themselves, that is a little bit of an indicator like clue for me and as far as holding the space to make both people feel
Speaker 5:honored and heard. I think that's actually very natural. I think for me, because I think we all are perfectly imperfect and we all have our challenges and issues, and I think that I'm really looking, when I see a couple come in, as to look past the maybe the parts of the behavior, the personality parts that are very not pleasant, and seeing the source of the underlying pain where that comes from. I think my mind is very much geared that way.
Speaker 5:It doesn't make it an excuse and I'm not saying that that explains or justifies it, but if you really can get the heart of use your wise mind as a therapist to get to the heart of what are the underlying. What is that person's underlying unresolved issues that's contributing to this toxic behavior? It makes me feel that I can connect to both people, even if one person is maybe a little bit more off-putting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's so interesting what you're saying. How, like, when they're like this person's the problem it's often the flip. I'll even feel that in individual therapy sometimes where it's like this is my issue and this is what I need therapy for. I'll even feel that in individual therapy sometimes where it's like this is my issue and this is what I need therapy for. Often, if they're so sure of it in that way, there is a lot more to to be curious about and to open up. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's the. I remember like I don't know, maybe this is anecdotal reading it somewhere or something like that, but is there um, like, uh, when you start the sessions with couples and again we're speaking to generalities, obviously there's very individual, you know things going on there but is there a moment of like having them recount, like how they met or like the warm feelings? That they have just to kind of see if like those, if they can even go there and kind of okay, okay, absolutely.
Speaker 5:So, when you know everybody comes to me, sometimes people are coming for, which is so refreshing and I love when this happens and someone's coming to me, not in crisis, and they're coming to me and they're saying listen, we just really want some tools. We want to be able to communicate better.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's a breath of fresh. Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah, that's like wow.
Speaker 5:Wow, come on, let's have some fun and it's really really exciting Cause, if you think about it, we have to get a test to get a driver's license. You have to get a lot of credentialing, but to get married there is no such thing other than getting a license and having a ceremony. So when somebody really is wanting to do the learning, there can be that kind of a flavor and then there can be.
Speaker 5:Obviously somebody is coming to me in really intense crisis obviously somebody is coming to me in really intense crisis, and so the way I navigate that, depending on the situation, is going to be clearly very different.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, totally. I'm curious to like, if we think about the idea of like wise mind for all of us, maybe we can think of this like as a cause. We're all partnered, and then we, you know, see people that are partnered, we treat people that are partnered. But, yeah, like the idea of like wisdom in the relational space the romantic relationship space. You know, I know it's a very big question.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I'm like there's yeah, it's just there's. It just opens up everything. I mean, there's so many yeah, so I'll share this with you guys.
Speaker 5:This is, um, when I was thinking about topics to talk about, I and I listened to your theme of wise mind. I'll tell you something that I've learned that is at the heart of a lot of conflicts, regardless of the level of conflict, is that usually between couples, when there is the heightened, most emotionally triggering, upsetting, dysregulating conflicts. Most of the time you are coming at that with where your pain is from the past. That often predates and has nothing to do with what's going on with your part. It does have to do with it. It's touching a cord, it's like a sense, it's like heat sensitivity, when, if you're eating something and you have like a sensitivity in your root of your teeth and you drink something, really hot or cold and it sort of can sting.
Speaker 5:that happens with that's how I think about it happens with couples, and so that sting or that pushback is something that predates the relationship. That's a root of a root of where there is some pent up feelings, pain, experiences, and where I think wise mind comes in. When it comes to couples counseling, which I'm using in the sessions, is that when you really are able to understand where your partner's rawness is, or that root is and have a wise mind about where they're really wired more sensitively.
Speaker 5:then you can have more compassion for it and you can be more supportive to the person instead of being in your root of where your pain is. And what I was saying and I don't think I fully finished is that the most difficult moments are when both people are intersecting in their root at the same time. So, no one can hold the space to get into that wise mind.
Speaker 5:Right Because they're coming from a visceral place of anger, hurt, pain, you're not understanding me, you know you're not supporting me enough. You're not, and it just gets heated pretty quickly. But the other person can hold the space better for that when they're not in their root moment. So in my experience, when there's that intersection of both things happening simultaneously, it's the most explosive. So I teach couples that and I say you know you might want to think when you have some of your, it's a tool. When you have some of your, you know more difficult arguments or conflicts and you're really feeling hopeless or sad. If you can take a moment and say well, this is what I've learned in therapy. You know we're both in a very vulnerable spot and we're both digging really deep to some issues that have nothing to do with each other.
Speaker 3:And.
Speaker 5:I don't want to bring all the energy of that backlash, of that to our relationship. I have to have some accountability there and sensitivity to you and then it shifts it and I see that in my work with people and that's part of why I love. This is back to your question, john, about you know two people in the room and when it gets what you know, what do you do and how do you handle the space for that?
Speaker 5:Especially if one person maybe seems more, let's just say unglued or uncentered or contributing to the conflict in a destructive way. But I am looking at that route for everybody which we all have. So then that puts us all on more. I'm going to say equal playing field, if that makes sense. Yeah, that's a lot to digest.
Speaker 2:No, it's a lot to digest and I love it, I think it's great.
Speaker 1:No, I, I totally see that. That. That's if both people are triggered in like something unresolved that predates often the relationship something early on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like they're having a different kind of fight than the one that's observable and yeah, it's like just just the awareness of that can create some like diffusion from that state a bit I had a good friend who said it had really difficult rough patch in his marriage and and I mean this this is a guy who probably, you know, therapy is extremely uncomfortable for him for many reasons.
Speaker 2:But I remember him saying, like the rough patch in his marriage, like just having the tool to say we need to take a time out right now, like I can't talk right now, he was like that was huge and kind of like altering the trajectory of the fights that they were having, because it sounded like the way he described it. It was going that route where both of them were so heightened they didn't know what to do. So then they just continued to escalate in those moments and the ability to take that pause and just kind of say we can't continue in this heightened state. We're both in that the nerve is getting whatever activated. We need to take a time out. He said that just that tool alone was so on top of building other tools, was so useful for him it's a very important tool.
Speaker 5:What happens, though, as we all can relate to in our own lives and in others' lives, is that sometimes that tool becomes inaccessible because the emotions are so powerful and the behaviors that we did as children often worked better as children than they do as adults, and some of them didn't work as children either. But what happens with couples when they're really heated sometimes even in my office is somebody can't get down to that understanding or the compassion or the wise mind.
Speaker 5:Because, as I said, they're reacting from this visceral wounded place, and the behaviors that they do when they're in the wounded place can be wounding too. So I'm going to leave, I'm going to slam the door and then.
Speaker 3:I'm leaving.
Speaker 5:I'm leaving our space and for some people, that person leaving is good. I need a break and let's take a time out. For someone else, that's triggering to childhood rejection. So then it escalates and someone else might be, you know, have a temper, so they are screaming a lot and again, there's a lot of energy around how we react to somebody expressing anger and screaming. So, depending on what is happening in that conflict and the behaviors that are happening in that, those behaviors can almost re-injure the child who's already injured.
Speaker 5:Now, in 2025, in a different way, because this is familiar to me this doesn't feel good and then things really get escalated. Basically, there is no wise mind governing the situation. It escalated and basically, there is no wise mind governing the situation, you know. And so, at the heart of couples therapy I think that that was kind of why I was excited to bring up this topic, because I think that it's so. It's so applicable to couples navigating which life is difficult and we are going to have difficult moments and we aren't always going to agree and there's different phases that are hard for different reasons. And there's wedding planning and there's children, and there's family issues and there's financial issues, and if you have this ungoverned part of emotional feelings regulating your emotion instead of the wise mind?
Speaker 5:ever that's why so many couples have difficulty.
Speaker 3:And that's why.
Speaker 5:I'm so passionate about helping them find another way and a lot of people thankfully find that, wow, we can make this work. We don't need to get divorced, we don't need to be slamming the door and not speaking, you know? And or somebody who's giving the silent treatment which is so toxic, you know that's another.
Speaker 3:Or somebody who's giving the silent treatment?
Speaker 5:which is so toxic, that's another. It's the opposite end of the expressive anger is the silence which is debilitating in a relationship.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I know something. I'm thinking about this as you're saying this for myself, and I'm curious if you work with people cause I think we both do to work with people also in the dating phase, looking for their partners which is so interesting, but I'm thinking about myself, like in myself in that phase.
Speaker 1:I think sometimes and I don't think like internet rhetoric around dating like helped so much with this. But I think a lot of times, like without even totally being conscious of it sometimes, as I was dating, I would want to meet someone who like rescued me from my past, like injuries and pain and and like disappointments and without really knowing it would be distorted and like kind of wanting someone, like airtight, you know, and not realizing that what's actually and Josh has given me this what's actually healing is like a real flesh and blood person who, when things are hard and painful, they stay there and work through it with you in as messy of a way as can be, like as people conflict, interpersonal conflict is yeah, because I'm not airtight can be like as people conflict.
Speaker 1:yeah, because I'm not airtight. But you know, like I think sometimes I would have it as sort of like I need, like trying to wanting someone, and what that would do then is it wouldn't allow me to use the moment for self-discovery to to grow and transcend myself when I would want someone. Even sometimes it's if you're looking for a partner with like a lot of money. You know it's like there's a, there's a self worth deficit. I think sometimes in that of like I'm not enough, I don't trust myself to earn, I don't trust myself to take care of you know, whatever, Are you wait?
Speaker 2:I'm sorry, can I cut you off? Are you saying, like somebody would offer you a partner, would offer you a corrective experience from relationships, that things you didn't have from either your parents or your got it yeah.
Speaker 1:Like things in the past, wounds in the past. Yeah, you know, I want someone who.
Speaker 2:The partner's going to fix this. Who like perfectly, yes, yes, fixes all that they. They meet those requirements and they're going to write Okay.
Speaker 1:Instead of, like we together participate in doing something different creating something different. I think sometimes subconsciously, I would look for that and then, of course, find the opposite, like, find somebody who only like reinforce the past and Cause that's familiar.
Speaker 1:Cause that's familiar Totally. And when it's like you're looking for something impossible, it's like you're never going to get it, and I think being with you has helped me realize like someone who's open and honest and willing to do what's hard and be in painful moments and also not abandon himself and his own needs, has been so helpful. You know like I'm not going to leave when it's hard or shut you down when it's hard, which is so great no, I just might get quiet but that's a need of yours.
Speaker 1:That sometimes triggers wounds for me yeah you know like you're mad at me, right?
Speaker 4:you don't like me no, I just feel like my brain's filled with junk and I can't formulate a thought.
Speaker 1:Sometimes, I'm mad at you, totally I'm mad at you.
Speaker 3:Is that how you're diffused from it Is?
Speaker 4:dang it in that way, I feel like we haven't really been in a big fight since we've been saying that. But that would be good if we could.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I think almost all of our conflict is like I'm triggered in some way.
Speaker 5:Or vice versa.
Speaker 1:Yeah, something is doing that.
Speaker 5:But not just you guys. I mean first of all kudos to both of you, for the fact that we can even talk about this is in and of itself that you do it as a couple or that a therapist can do it with you and guide you. That's huge. And that's helpful as opposed to what I think a lot of people do is don't process it, don't talk, let's just brush it under the carpet and just go about business as usual, which nothing gets better.
Speaker 5:It just accumulates like mildew and anywhere it's not getting any kind of talking or processing or understanding. And even if the understanding is, we're not going to agree. But I can respect where you're coming from and you can respect where I'm coming from. We're not going to necessarily process the same way. That's healthy. That's a healthy outcome yeah.
Speaker 5:But you know, you and Josh are a great example. I've watched you guys, not always up front and center, but you know, just in your capacity, both of you are so strongly capable of insight and accountability, which I think are two important skills that couples need.
Speaker 5:And still it's, it's, still, it's hard you know, but to have insight, to have accountability, to see where you're, to have some notion of where your issues are and patience for the other person's issues of where they are. No, it's not always about you. And something else you said, Kelly no one can fix those deficits and those wounds that we carry, but I think most of us unconsciously bring that hope to our partnership. You're owning yours out loud, but I think that's something most of us do.
Speaker 5:Might not even be aware of that's what you're doing, but we're wanting our partner to heal some part of us that we feel we're stuck in or lost in, and nobody can do that for us but us.
Speaker 3:Yeah totally.
Speaker 1:Yes, totally, I think the.
Speaker 2:yeah, I just think of like the programming we receive about, like what a partnered relationship fulfills within you, like that, that whole idea, though very antiquated, is like you complete me.
Speaker 2:or like this person is your everything, they're everything to you and I just feel like that can lead to a lot of I know in my own marriage, just kind of like yeah, like at times maybe losing, like no, like I, I have to have other friends outside of my marriage, like this is my person, right, and at the same time, like I need to have other interests that are just not what we do together and I need to you know, so like sometimes I feel like I got, I've gotten lost at periods in my marriage where it's like, well, no, this is your person, so then it's like fulfilling, like the need of all of of all of your needs, and, and that's so much for me, that's just like so much like pressure to put on somebody else.
Speaker 2:But then also it's not realistic, because if that need isn't filled which rightfully so from that one person that could build resentment, or that could build, like you know, like right why this is my partner. Why aren't they fulfilling? It's like, well, you have to have other other things that are fulfilling to you and that's an individual process.
Speaker 5:So absolutely, and I think that we have a lot of messaging in our society. I don't think I know we have a lot of messaging in our society that, in my experience, sets us up for expecting that partner to complete us or to there's all this messaging, or we could start with, and then they lived happily ever after in every, in every fairy tale.
Speaker 4:Right.
Speaker 5:And you know the answer is, I want to say and then they lived and they had some challenging times and they communicated and they worked it out hopefully and came to a better understanding, and they are some simpler times and some more challenging times, but we don't say that, right. And then I've actually had people say to me I do work with couples at every phase of the story, people who are single, wanting to be in a partnership. A lot of people are asking me about online dating advice or their dates.
Speaker 5:We can talk about that, but I think one of the messages that some of the young people I see process with me is I'm going to go, my wedding should be the best day of my life, or my honeymoon should be the best day of my life, and I say, whoa, that's a lot of pressure and not necessarily helpful. How about saying we want your wedding to hopefully be a really memorable, wonderful moment, but there's going to be issues, there can be something that doesn't go right, and that doesn't mean that everything is quote unquote, ruined and I don't think we get enough messaging, whether it's social media, movies, everything else. You know, I definitely love a happy story, but I don't think we give enough space for reality about the fact that it's not all. A nice little bow, yeah.
Speaker 1:That makes me think too, because obviously I'm about to have my wedding day and, yeah, it's like it needs to be the best day and my partner needs to fit all of these like like be everything right. It's like if I'm the person who's even, it's like if I'm the person who's super something innocuous talkative, my partner needs to be equally talkative or else they're wrong for me. And it's like if you have needs for connecting through like verbal communication, it's like your partner can be part of that. But can you just like gently, take responsibility?
Speaker 1:for that and explore like how in my life could this need be met and my partner still be so wonderful and perfect for me?
Speaker 2:Perfect for me For sure, you're quiet. Well, and also just the comparison aspect. Like I get into that comparison place of like thinking other couples like yes.
Speaker 2:They got it together. Like look at these people. And one thing that was like really impactful for me, like I don't know if this sounds silly, I don't want to judge it, but like when Michelle Obama went on her book tour and she said I just brought people. If we're recording this, people think I'm not paying attention because I was on my phone, but I had to look this up because she was quoted. She said people think I'm being catty by saying this.
Speaker 2:It's like there were 10 years where I couldn't stand my husband Barack, and guess what, when it happened, when those kids were little, and for 10 years, while we were trying to build our careers and you know, worrying about school and who's doing what and what, I was like, oh, this isn't even. And guess what? Marriage isn't 50, 50, ever, ever. There are times I'm 70. He's 30. There are times he's 60. I'm 40. And times I'm 70, he's 30. There are times he's 60, I'm 40. And guess what? She continued 10 years We've been married, 30. I would take 10 bad years, all right, over 30. It's just how you look at it and people give up five years. I can't take it. It was just like her kind of like going into this story about, like, if you really want to, like you know, dedicate yourself to somebody and it doesn't always work it was just like right
Speaker 3:somebody.
Speaker 2:It was refreshing to like from a view of like a couple and like their story and just how much admiration I have for both of them, just as people and individuals, let alone, you know, as a couple together.
Speaker 2:But just like the, the sheer honesty of like I couldn't stand them for 10 years like yeah, and it's like, and it like when, when you get in a rough patch in your partnership with somebody, like again, not that it's always going to you're going to come out on the other side of that in any way. But just, I don't know that to me like cause the comparison of like people that are like oh, they got it together, like how did? They have such a great relationship and then it's like you don't know what's happening. You just, you really don't.
Speaker 1:And there's all different kinds of relationships. Like I remember oh my God, this is making me think this was a crazy weird reference but I took a. We had to take these single author classes in college. I went to Wash U and I took one on Shakespeare and we read was it A Midsummer Night's Dream or maybe twelfth night or something? And there were all these different marriages in the play. Like one was kind of just of convenience, one was like a friendship, one was more romantic and one of the students was like kind of talking about how that wasn't like realistic and like there was something almost like whimsical about it and it's all supposed to be like a comedy, like this isn't really what marriage is. They were kind of making fun of marriage in this future was like you mean, you don't think there are people who marry someone because there's a friendship there or you know like like he was reflecting like this is actually more realistic in this ancient text, that it's actually more grounded than the fairy tale like this is real and there's joy here and there's.
Speaker 1:There's a variety of different ways to make something meaningful and I was like, wow, it's crazy. Like yeshiva, shakespeare, like the 1500s, was like saying that there's all these ways to approach this. Yeah, and what's valid and what's right? There's a mixture and yeah, it's like could a marriage last and be purposeful and meaningful with 10 years?
Speaker 2:that are incredibly tough as a couple, and possibly even deeper, depending on how people navigate those 10 years yes or more connected to come through that yeah I mean not always
Speaker 4:but like yeah like I don't know, totally, totally absolutely.
Speaker 5:I love what you guys both shared because we need to hear more of that. We don't hear enough of that. We hear way more of the image driven fairy tale't know. Anyone's got it all together. So I don't even look at it that way and it's not because I'm being cynical Actually, I think I tend to see the best in people to sometimes get disappointed but I just think that it's impossible because we're all wired imperfectly and we're imperfect and our relationships are imperfect.
Speaker 5:So this whole idea of perfectionism or somebody is going to fill all of our needs. And I would tell my kids, josh, I don't know if you remember me saying this, but I would always say, even with their friends, I'd say don't put all your eggs in one basket. You know, um, even when you'd have a somebody would have a best, best friend and you know, be with that person not to diminish that, that connection. But I just think anytime we put all of our energy into one person, even if it's not our marriage partner, our living together partner, whomever that person is, even if it's a friend as a child, or as a teenager.
Speaker 5:I just never have thought that that's the most balanced way to go about things, because other people, other friends, other somebody in a couple, a partnership, that person could be so right for you in so many ways. But someone else in your village that is part of your journey is really good at helping you. When you feel X, y or Z, that only enhances your marriage. That's not a negative thing. That's not taking away from the intimacy. That's not saying this person isn't all that and more. It's realistic. I just don't think we're realistic.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, maybe that's actually a good segue to the dating piece, because I'm sure I mean I know we've all worked with people in that phase or even people who go through like depression around that or anxiety with that Cause I I do notice well, so much of that like this, this is one that I will have a little bit of reaction to. But, but when we can work with, but where it's like the apps are terrible, dating is just terrible. There's kind of no one out there. Everyone's the worst, and that view of like the outside world isn't serving up what I want. And I remember like, or even like people like what's the strategy? What's like the proper strategy with dating. I remember this being on a bachelorette party before I had met Josh. It was my friend Leah's bachelorette party and her friend had just broken up with someone and she and I were the only two that were single on this trip and she was very, she's very like a New Yorker, like. So what's your strategy? Like what?
Speaker 5:are you doing? Which apps you're on and like? What are you? What's your?
Speaker 1:and I, I looked at her and I had, I reached a place of like, I think, a lot of processing and therapy, which you heard tons about, therapy and meditating and all and like spiritual practice. And I looked at her and I was like the only thing in the way of me finding my person is me. There's no strategy, there's nothing. It's all about how do I learn to be in tune with myself. So I, I just, I know that for me and I wasn't saying it for her I was like I know for me it's not a strategy, it's when am I like, apart from myself, not connected to myself? And when I am, that's when I, I would say, manifest what I want. And she was, she could not know what to do with that, cause she's very like practical and she was like okay and kind of just like moved on, but cause she was, she was then trying to regroup and whatever.
Speaker 1:But I think that's true and I'll kind of share that with clients where it's like where are you not connected to yourself? Or like there's a I don't know if anyone follows Joe Dispenza, but he has a thing of like if you want to manifest your partner, like write down all the things you want your partner to be and then become that person and there they will be. And I really, when he said that, I really believed that. I was like I think that's so true, like showing up for yourself, healing yourself. Often it opens your eyes to new things. That like creates a different landscape, like right in front of you, and I think there's so many people who look at it more in that concrete, like when I swipe, I don't like what I see, or these dates are bad, even like bad dates being so meaningful. So, yeah, I'm curious what either of you think about that well.
Speaker 5:I think that I always say we find our healthiest partner potentially not perfect when we are in a healthiest place with ourself. I think that's tends to be. I have a very spiritual side of me. I think that's when the universe tends to have the timing of that maybe be more aligned. And I'm not saying that you can't find somebody when you're in a stressful time or you're going through a stressful time that can end up being very healthy for you. But I think that in general, when you are doing the work and you are being self-reflective and you're making your relationship with yourself a priority, you're going to be more discriminatory about the partner you're picking and knowing what you deserve and having to be healthier. So I do tell people when they're frustrated with their dating experiences.
Speaker 5:I say a few different things. One I say that I don't really know this is true. I don't really know anybody long-term who has been consistent with being open to meeting someone. If they stick with that, instead of getting frustrated and saying, okay, I'm not going to try anymore, I'm closing myself off, usually over time, if you stick with it, it does manifest, it does happen. It is a question of timing, it is circumstance and I kind of have this vision. I'm very metaphorical in the way I think about things and share with people in therapy. But when you go in a store and there's the revolving door, I feel like the idea that there's these different points in that door where you're both in the same little cubicle at the same time. There's a lot of different entrance and exit points when you could just miss each other.
Speaker 3:Yeah totally.
Speaker 5:And I feel like to have it aligned is a spiritual, is a part, a spiritual part of when there's a component of it that is aligned. And the best advice I give to people when they're waiting and frustrated is okay. Well, while you're waiting, none of us like waiting. We don't like waiting to get off the runway, we don't like waiting in lines, we don't like waiting, let alone waiting for a partner. So, while you're waiting, let's change the energy from waiting to working on yourself.
Speaker 5:And I do tell people to make a list of. I say listen, let's put on a piece of paper you put all the qualities or characteristics that are your preferences, manifesting your preferences of what you want in a partner, your preferences manifesting your preferences of what you want in a partner. Preferences are not absolutes, but I prefer. And then the much smaller list should be your non-negotiables or your deal breakers, because if you're trying to negotiate a non-negotiable in a relationship because there's a lot of preferences you're being blinded by, that often is not going to work. So there's a lot of things that I'm working on with people when they're in the phase of I'm frustrated, I'm losing hope, I feel like I'm not going to find someone, and it really is about putting that energy into getting away from that waiting and more into the we can talk about that partner. Make that list and then put it away is what I tell people.
Speaker 5:Don't stare at it every day, right.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It makes me the yeah, the thing you said about what's your strategy, because I feel I'm going back to and I guess this was a strategy in a way, but it kind of wasn't. I feel like I, when I was in the dating phase of my life, right after I moved to Chicago and and was in graduate school and everything like that was I was really fused with this idea. It has to be like an organic thing like an organic meeting of someone.
Speaker 2:Like I'm just going to meet someone and it's going to be organic and we're going to hit it off and things like that and I feel like that kind of ran its course of like this is kind of not helping me really meet anybody, almost in a way, and so I guess the strategy was and at that time I mean I'm of an age where it was not social or, you know, like app driven- social or you know like app driven.
Speaker 2:It was like I joined matchcom, oh yeah, and that was my strategy, which was kind of like I let go of the strategy of like this is I'm just going to meet somebody. Yeah, and I let go of that because it was like no, I actually want to like commit to somebody in a relationship and like be in a relationship. And so maybe I need to go down an avenue of looking for other people who that's what they're looking for too yeah and, yes, that was like a you know a format to do that.
Speaker 2:But I had to let go of and there was a lot of judgment with that too I was like, oh, like. At that time I was like I'm gonna be on like this dating website and I don't know if I like want to tell people.
Speaker 2:I'm on this dating website like there was like just like a lot of judgment there, but I ended up like going on dates that didn't work for sure, but like I ended up meeting sarah and it was like, yeah, it was like, I guess the strategy of letting go of this narrative and probably reinforced from programming, of like oh you just meet somebody and they're your perfect fit, or like the story you're gonna meet them in the grocery store just by happenstance or you know, like all of those types of like tropes or whatever.
Speaker 2:When I let go of that, it actually opened me up to more possibilities of maybe meeting people just in different ways. So I don't know, that's where my mind kind of went.
Speaker 1:I think that's so important. I've even had friends or clients or you know people who are like if I even said to them, like if I told you like there was this person you were going to feel so unbelievably in love with, that is your person. But you meet them through this less than ideal way, like if they're against my dating or whatever, would you want to do it, and most people will say yes, but there are people who are like no, and then that's a whole different thing for us to uncover in therapy.
Speaker 1:It's like this need for a sheen on your life and each part of it, and where? Where even does that come from? Where have you felt that? Where has that been necessary in the past for you to survive or for you? You know, in some environment you were in, because really, it's like your wise mind or, as I think about it, like in ifs, like the self. It's like the self. Is this like wise being that isn't traumatized, isn't reaching obviously, isn't egoic? It's like it would never need a particular story to reach its vitality. You know, like it would never require conditions, ever. So it's like these conditions that are keeping you from actual joy, like that's what's going on with that person and dating is like a by-product, it's like needing some kind of specific container.
Speaker 1:It's so interesting Cause for me it's like, oh, if you could guarantee me I'd meet my person online. I'll be online every day.
Speaker 2:See, and honestly I think back then there would be a resistance for me, because I think, in a way, maybe a little bit of I don't know if this is the right term, but like hopeless romantic where it's kind of like I back then I wanted the story to tell.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I was like very fused with, like there's going to be a story here. Yeah, like my relationship with this person is going to be who I'm going to spend the rest of my life with, or whatever. Whatever the narrative was Like, I was very fused with it, not that I knew exactly what it had to look like, but there had to be, like something, a Genesis moment.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That that's going to be like a foundational piece of this relationship. Yeah, and once I let go of that, then it opened up more possibilities. Yeah, totally, but I think that's such a telling question of like asking somebody yeah, if you could almost like reverse engineer it, if I could tell you had all these like this person who's going to be your person and you had to go through it, and somebody still resistant to more there.
Speaker 5:I think that the story John can be. I think of it and I'm older than you. And there wasn't. There weren't dating apps when I was at all. You know, we didn't even have, quite honestly, cell phones.
Speaker 5:So it was all organic. It had to only be organic, right? So I really only would have been in a world where that was the way you would meet someone. But the way I do see it is that it's really being open to the world of possibility, of increasing the chances of that timing that I'm talking about. I feel like you're just increasing the chances of it and the story can still unfold in where did you meet and what was your first date and when was your first kiss and when did you?
Speaker 5:have a sense that you were really connecting with that person. And why did you connect? And we all have a story. But I think that we create of any kind of genesis of how the relationship begins. But I think we can feel like the a lot of people still feel this way that it's just not as genuine or it's more artificial.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 5:It's not as natural organic.
Speaker 2:I think that's probably those words right there really hit with me where it was like maybe this is an artificial thing or like not an organic thing. Yeah, I think that's what kind of strikes with me.
Speaker 2:But what you said just before, that too is it's like wow, this has turned into such a great story in retrospect because now, when people ask how Sarah and I met and I tell them they're always like oh my God, matchcom, or I remember that, or even people don't even know what that was, and so it turns into this great conversation about like yeah. So it was like this dating website before they were these. So, like you know, it's turned into a story and a narrative that I enjoy telling.
Speaker 5:And when?
Speaker 2:oh yeah no.
Speaker 5:And that's inspirational.
Speaker 3:Exactly Right For others Cause then they can.
Speaker 5:I've been. I'm excited to meet Sarah, but then it's Josh and Kelly met that way.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 5:And it's John and Sarah met that way. Look at these couples that give us hope, that give us inspiration that we can realize that the possibility of meeting someone doesn't need to be in this more restrictive, organic way. That is maybe a little bit, I don't want to say that's still a great way to meet, but there's just more options of how to meet.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 5:Totally, totally. I think you guys, all of you give other people hope, yeah, who are stuck in the organic process and feeling limited by it. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:That's another great term limited because that's what it felt like. Because that's what it felt like and that's why that was like this is so limiting of trying to like meet people and like manufacture like this chance meeting. Yeah, that's all it is is a chance, right, okay? Yeah, that's not really putting yourself out there. You want to increase?
Speaker 1:Yeah, Even the idea of like a database of all the people that are not partnered in your area. It's like you really are ready for a relationship. It makes sense that you would be ready to meet those people. Not that it's easy, not that it's not anxiety-provoking, but yeah. Yeah, it's such an interesting thing, yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's scary. I was scared of it for so long. I don't know what. What would you say, mom? I know exactly what I'd say josh you know, because you know me longer than kelly somehow, and I was like very anti-online dating for a long time and I tried it in. Los Angeles years ago, like you know, seven years ago, and I don't know it was fine. I didn't really love it and I'm curious to hear your take.
Speaker 5:Oh, I have a strong take. When you were moving to Chicago, you may or may not remember this, I remember.
Speaker 4:I just want you to tell the story. Oh, I'll tell the story.
Speaker 5:I said well, you know, I knew Josh was really wanting to meet someone. And I said you know you might want to consider online dating in Chicago. You said I'm not going to do that and very emphatically were annoyed with me.
Speaker 1:I understand.
Speaker 5:I'm his mom. Part of my job is probably to be annoying, you know, by making a suggestion. That's annoying, but I really all I wanted was for you to find your person, which you did, or a person who happens to now be your person, and I just feel like you were very emphatically no because you had had, because the truth is it can be exhausting it's exhausting it's exhausting it's scary yes, there's so much, if you're going on multiple dates a week.
Speaker 4:It's like rejection multiple times a week.
Speaker 5:Yeah yeah, and not clicking and having it feel so arbitrary, but what you're doing is increasing the odds of meeting a person that you could click with. That's exactly and simply how I see it is increasing the odds. The organic part unfolds when the two of you have the chemistry you have and the date is like well, we haven't even ordered yet because the waitress keeps coming, but we're enjoying each other's company. That's the story, you know. And who kind of texted after the initial meeting to say we should meet again? That's the story. So the story is not tarnished by the methodology.
Speaker 4:It's even almost silly to think of it in terms of the story. That's the happily ever after. I feel, like we have so many stories, I forget sometimes that we met online yes, and it wasn't even that long ago. And then when it does come up, I do think I'm excited to tell people, because I'm like I would have liked to have heard that from someone like yes, oh wow you met online, like you don't seem like yes yeah, that's like yeah you can like meet a person and have like the most meaningful relationship you've had.
Speaker 4:It's just like yeah in the process of that, you might have to like have a lot of garbage dates or even like yeah, I think I reached a point where I was like this is an adventure, like I'm gonna go on like mostly not great dates and they're gonna be like funny stories and like it's fun. It's fun for these dates to like not be very good, like it feels fun to kind of put yourself out there and get like beat up a little bit yeah eventually something's gonna click yeah totally.
Speaker 5:You have to have a pretty I and I tell people this you have to have some humor, perspective and, um, some thicker skin, because it's not I. I never sugarcoat it and say it's gonna be blissful and wonderful, and some of those are. Some of those dates become part of your story yeah, totally, or not even the dates.
Speaker 2:the way that matchcom was set up, was you like winked at somebody? To like show interest or something like that. So you looked at their profile and then you would like wink at them, and then, when it was radio silence, like that, like you didn't even go on the date and it was like oh, they looked at my profile and they didn't even wink back. Yeah, no comment. So that was like I was like when I would do that and just not get the wink back, I was like do I need to change my picture?
Speaker 2:I'm holding my heart right now, because I was like am I ugly? What's happening?
Speaker 1:I'm my picture, I'm holding my heart right now because I was like am I ugly? What's happening? I'm hideous, yeah, I'm hideous.
Speaker 4:My first online date ever, and this was in Los Angeles. I invited someone to a Posies concert at the now closed Bootleg venue, which is a great music venue, and they just didn't show up. And then they never texted me back.
Speaker 2:And that was my first online date yeah, so not a great introduction. I was totally set up by someone. You got to have ego strength to do it. Yeah, it's just hard.
Speaker 4:I think that would have been nicer like seven days. Yeah, that was literally my first experience with online dating.
Speaker 5:It's never nice, it's always upsetting, but you got to know what you're focused on.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 5:What you're focused on is. You know, I'm gonna not. This isn't going to be a blissful, easy process, unfortunately. I mean sometimes it can work out really quickly for people rarely, yeah, and I tell people in, in and out of therapy don't expect it to be so fast. Be attached to the process, not the outcome, right?
Speaker 3:now.
Speaker 5:You know the outcome is when, when attached to the process not the outcome right now. You know the outcome is when, when when that's the waiting, yeah, when they all want to know when. Right, I think I'm part psychic, yeah, and I say I can't tell you the one exactly, but I feel that we can work on the organic part of the. What can you do in the process to be the best version of you possible? Because that's a factor in finding someone who's best for you.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 2:No, and we talk about process versus outcome. I mean, that's something that I'm very passionate about in the work that we do is how can we create meaning in this process? Right, the outcome is going to be what it's going to be. We can't predict that, but, like, are you doing things that are meaningful? Are you living in line with your values? Are you committing to the things that are gonna push you out of your comfort zone into more growth?
Speaker 1:you know. So, yeah, totally speaking my language there. Yeah, I love that. Even I was thinking about that when you said that about, um, someone's like my wedding has to be like the greatest day of my honeymoon. That more that act perspective, right where you know, how do you look at what are the values that are really important to me that are related to a wedding day and how do I embody those and and stand in that energy and move with that energy in the day and like truly let go of the rest, like open the space for anything to happen within that and you're connected to that. You know, if I believe in love and respect for my partner and joy and celebration, like do I show up with that energy and be there, or even something like I remember that I don't know if he's a couples therapist, I think he's a psychologist that Alain de Botton, who writes books about couples, and was saying like that getting married is so romantic because you don't know what's going to happen.
Speaker 1:You're doing this commitment, you're doing this brave thing because you have no idea how it's going to unfold, and like the act of trusting within that uncertainty is like a profound, meaningful thing, apart from like what happens in the relationship, like as a person, to have the strength to do that and try that, even if it totally fails and the relationship ends, or if it's a really bumpy ride or whatever. To do that, to make a choice like that to live your life, you know, is meaningful in itself and I think that's so powerful. It's like it wouldn't be romantic if it wasn't a risk, if it wasn't uncertain.
Speaker 4:Yeah, you got to let go. Yeah, like maybe this is going to suck sometimes.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 4:Any relationship probably will Of course it will.
Speaker 3:I don't think that's.
Speaker 2:We don't have to sugarcoat that it will Like at times, I think that's what we're talking about is like the realistic that at times this relationship, we are going to be at odds with one another. Right.
Speaker 5:And it's.
Speaker 2:How can we create meaning when we're at odds with one another, right and see above that at times.
Speaker 4:Here's an interesting question. Do you think some people really the wise decision for them is just to be single forever?
Speaker 5:I do. I do because that's a quick answer on my part because I think for some people, well I do if that is in their highest good and the best match for them and their personality or what they want, and it's just too uncomfortable or vulnerable for them to be in a partnership.
Speaker 5:I do have a relationship oriented person shockingly drawn to this field because I believe in and promote relationships, but for some people I think all right, let's take the example of a person who cannot really commit to a partner and they're going to be unfaithful from day one throughout the whole partnership, and they have been. They were when they were engaged. They have been Really. That's a person who should not, if they can't, if their inherent nature or their story of why they became that way is that their desire to be committed and faithful is clearly not part of the repertoire at all. Smart, wise, wise mind to be able to know who they are and who they aren't, and what they do or don't want to give to someone, cause it's a lot of intimacy and vulnerability to be in a relationship. That's what I feel.
Speaker 5:I don't know about what you guys think about that but you know, I think for a lot of people they can avoid relationships because they're afraid. And if if that's the case, I really work to try to help people realize that risk goes with life and that if they're really wanting it, that they get to a place where the anxiety is not inhibiting them from exploring it. So it's not like if somebody is saying I want to be, it depends. Why are they wanting to be single? Is it from real wisdom gained through the journey of their capacity, for the integrity of being in a relationship is so severely compromised? They're owning that. Or is it because they're defending themselves against something they really want? And the answer of how I help guide would be different.
Speaker 1:What do you guys think? Like your question right Of, like some people meant to be single.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I wonder if you, because if I think about that and like spiritual destiny of someone to be single, I think there could be people that it's like. The journey of like love doesn't have to be in like romantic partnership.
Speaker 4:It could be like loving yourself or Well, I think it's all.
Speaker 1:Loving's loving a career that like, if you think, I think in that way of like, we are those like separate beings in body, but like in soul not so much, and I think some people don't need the romantic partnership to be that experience of love. I mean, if you take, you know, like a monk or whatever, certain people like that, but like I'm almost thinking you know what I started to think about. I started to think about, like Leonardo DiCaprio, how he always like trades in his girlfriends when they reach like age 24 or something for like a new, younger one. They're almost all the same age and they look very similar. If you think about that like is that person? Is that meant to be?
Speaker 4:yes, that wise or some guy like that, is he very wise it's like to be is like hard to think about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but can he handle anything else in this lifetime, on this mortal coil?
Speaker 4:Maybe not Right Like like see both sides of it, cause I think our society is so conditioned for people to think that's what you should do, and you could be someone who really is like pretty happy on your own and like you have a lot of meaningful relationships and maybe you like feel pressure to be in a romantic relationship but you get a lot out of a lot of things. I don't know. That's not me. Yeah, well, it's fun because I like a lot of like alone time and I have some like introverted tendencies and I just think I realized when you were away for your bachelorette party, like I missed you a lot and I was like, yeah, like I'm not, you know, I'm not cut out for the life of a monk Like as much as sometimes I may.
Speaker 1:I just needed to like stop suffocating you.
Speaker 4:Well, no, that's not what I'm putting down, no, it's really the opposite of like how much I like missed you like pretty much every second.
Speaker 3:But I lost my train of thought gives you that perspective.
Speaker 5:Right Space sometimes lets you know what you're suffering, yeah, so whereas if you're with someone all the time sometimes that becomes you know you take it for granted or you you you. Yeah, I think space can give us perspective to space, healthy space. Especially her going away for something that she was gonna enjoy and you missing her was a great opportunity to affirm how much you want to be with her right even though you knew it before but like stepping outside of our relationship.
Speaker 4:I guess I'm just trying to say I see both sides of it of like I feel like there's conditioning of like that's what you should do, and maybe for some people it's not the wise choice. But then I also see the other side of it of like I feel like there's conditioning of like that's what you should do, and maybe for some people it's not the wise choice. But then I also see the other side of it, of like well, relationships are hard so, and even if it's commitment, it's like maybe it's worth exploring and being like why can't I commit? And with the process of working on that, as opposed to just like accepting like I can't commit, I don't know. I see the wisdom of like accepting, like this is something that is not a strength of mine and I'm going to own that. Like I'm not good at committing, and also seeing the strength of like working on it and being like I'm going to push myself, to challenge myself because, at the end of the day, I want to be in a relationship.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 4:I know I've chosen the path and you know we're getting married in a month and a half. It definitely seems wise, but yeah, I don't know if that's right for literally everyone. So that's just the basis of the question.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think it's totally wise for people to be like I don't want to have a partner my whole life yeah, I think that's totally a wise decision, I mean if you well, just if you know
Speaker 2:yourself and you know relationships are a lot of work and I really put my energy into other things, or I can get my needs met in relational things that aren't partnered relationships in the sense of like significant others or something like that. I think that, yeah, absolutely. I don't know for some reason, my mind went to equating it to like some people just know like it's not going to be a wise decision for me to try to have children yeah, or create a family in that way, like that doesn't, it's not right or wrong, it's just like that's not going to have meaning for me.
Speaker 2:In the same way, I feel like there are people. But you're right, I don't think that that's necessarily what society tells us.
Speaker 4:Yeah, there's a lot of pressure.
Speaker 2:You should have kids. You should have a family. You should have a partner. You should have kids, you should have a family.
Speaker 5:You should have a partner you should have whatever. I think it's very wise for people to consider like.
Speaker 2:Is that something I?
Speaker 5:want to invest. I think it's wise too, and I don't think it's always condoned by society's expectations, right? So there's a lot I was thinking the same thing, john, about. For a lot of people it's wise to say I'm choosing to not have a family children right, that is wise. Yeah for somebody totally potentially but I don't think we allow for that wisdom to look as wise right there's some judgment around that there's a lot of judgment around that yeah like what you're missing out on.
Speaker 2:And yeah, those narratives kind of come down.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, or even like when I mean I just even like my own experience of like difficulties with my children, like developmentally and things like that, and then you know people will be like yeah, but these are the good years and this and that, and it's like, well, you don't, you're speaking from your experience, Like you don't, you know, you don't know, but like that's the narrative is. It's like, yeah, but you're going to miss this when they're being like tyrants and things like that.
Speaker 2:And it's like, well, one, you don't know if I'm going to miss it. And two, like maybe you miss it, right, and but that's, that's like a story, right, that, like these difficult times are going to lead to, you know, like more meaning in your life, or something like that. Right, and it's like it may.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But it's that. Yeah, like that same thing of like. I think there's more judgment of like oh well, you're having a difficult time, that's OK, it's going to pass, and this and that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, prescribing you kind of like what's the wise race? Yeah Right.
Speaker 2:Or describing you kind of like what's the wise right? Yeah, right. Or it's like you're not. You're not as grateful for right now. You're in it, but you should be more grateful that you're having a difficult time right now because you're going to miss this and this time is going to go by very quickly, or something like that yeah, um yeah, which is interesting and it makes me think too.
Speaker 1:This is like something I've been doing the internal family systems, training and and, as you were saying, like with the act stuff, you learn more and more and more and more and more as you do, more of it, which is so great that it's like endless learning.
Speaker 1:But the thing that's so pushed in that world is, like you never, ever, decide for the system like what is wise for it. Like, as a therapist, you are always helping them unlock the system and the system will tell you and we'll tell them, you know so, what's wise for them. Like I have to over and over remind myself like you don't know, even if sometimes I'm like, oh, this is the way to go about the dating. Like I have to go back to that humility of like what does the system say If there's a part saying I don't want to date and another part saying I desperately want a partner that create the dialogue between those two parts?
Speaker 1:And I have to like not put my two cents in, not tell someone like should we be grateful for this time we get to be single you know whatever like, which can be hard, you know, to like, remember, like the system will tell me, and there's almost like a like, a faith to that, you know, like a spirituality to that, like the inner divine part of them will make that decision and for some people it isn't a partner, it's, and for some.
Speaker 5:Here's another complicated story that is evolving from listening to you guys. Sometimes, when people do choose to partner up, that doesn't mean, in partnering up and deciding to have children, that parenting styles are in the same space or philosophies, for sure which is a whole. Nother recipe for, you know, conflict in a relationship. Yes, yeah, definitely.
Speaker 3:Oh man so that's a whole, nother episode that's a whole nother. That's a whole nother episode. That's a whole nother episode.
Speaker 5:But you know parenting styles and differences among couples and, um, I just think there's no. I guess the theme of the whole story we're telling today is there's no one recipe.
Speaker 1:There's none, yeah.
Speaker 4:Not one.
Speaker 1:There's no one recipe, multiple yeah.
Speaker 2:All right. So we're at our segment of how wise is it? And so today's question is how wise is it to have a. Kindle.
Speaker 1:Yeah, an e-reader. An e-reader.
Speaker 2:As opposed to maybe you know leaning more into books.
Speaker 1:Books the other round yeah.
Speaker 2:The other, maybe you know leaning more into books, books, leather round, yeah, leather round.
Speaker 1:Can I ask, do either of you have a Kindle or Josh?
Speaker 4:You know the answer to this question.
Speaker 3:Well, I have a Kindle. That's true, I have a Kindle and it is not.
Speaker 2:What I will say is right now in my life. It is not charged. So I think what?
Speaker 1:that lends itself to. I'm in a liminal space with my right now. What that lends itself to is.
Speaker 2:I have been reading more books from the library okay, I've been finding it really enjoyable.
Speaker 2:So I think I vacillate. I think it's very wise to have a kindle, especially when you're traveling, because if you finish your book it's very easy to download another book. Yeah, it's easy to. I mean the accessibility of it, um, it's also, you know, if it gets water splash on if you're by a pool or something like that, it's totally fine. But recently I have been liking having an actual physical book and I've been trying to engage more with the library and getting books from the library. So yeah.
Speaker 2:I think for me it's very wise to have a Kindle when I need it. I'm like traveling.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And kindle when I need it. I'm like traveling, yeah, and handy, but not handy. I really do like reading with a real book, like in bed right before, right before bed I really like having the pages yeah yeah, what about?
Speaker 5:I don't own a kindle and huge, reveal huge reveal I love it plot um, plot twist is right and I feel like the reason I don't is what you're saying, john, is there is something cozy and comforting to me, and less technologically driven in this technologically driven society, about the cozy wholesomeness of a book.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's just for me.
Speaker 5:Someone wants to have a Kindle. That's wise for them. Yeah, it doesn't feel particularly. It doesn't have the soothing aspect for me, I think, and I'm also feeling, although open to technology and having to evolve, in that I think sometimes holding on to some non-technological parts of ourself like a book feels good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree, you also can't lend your. I mean you could but, like recently, the books that I've purchased that are not from the library, I've just left them on a table in an office at work and people have been like tickled to be like, oh you're, you're done with that, I can just take it and read it and I'm like, absolutely, and it's like I'm not not gonna leave my kindle out there for them to take my kindle. So I feel like there's a little bit of connective tissue with that too, where it's like.
Speaker 2:I finished this book, let me pass it on to you and and now you can read it and then tell me how you enjoy it.
Speaker 3:So sorry, I'm boring you, kelly, you're yawning.
Speaker 2:She's like yeah I like that, john connective tissue whatever.
Speaker 4:Yeah, she's being sponsored by kindles. Yeah, I don't think. How do I?
Speaker 1:how do I shoehorn kindle? Well, I do have a kindle and I'm always trying to convince josh to get a kindle because I I do have some, obviously, book books and I like reading book books.
Speaker 3:But the night light is so nice yeah can read in the dark, if your partner's sleeping for
Speaker 1:sure on the plane. It's like you can mess with the light. You can make the font bigger. It definitely is that like convenience factor. It's lighter. You can bring three different books and this light little skinny thing in your when you travel. You have to charge it, which is annoying do you ever find it hard, though?
Speaker 2:and maybe I'm just not technologically advanced enough to know how to do this. I find it hard, though, because sometimes, when I read a book, I want to go back quickly to something I and reread it. Do you find that hard on the kindle?
Speaker 1:I'm trying to pretty easy, because you go to the main page and you can go to like the see, then this is just a deficit yeah, and then you just click okay, yeah, so you're gonna have to show me how to do that easy okay um, but I do think, yeah, like the romance of it is a little less um. Yeah, it's like convenient and I think it's like you like to read with the light on yeah on your paper.
Speaker 2:I do also miss the actual, the art, the cover art, yeah I like having a book like I'm looking at your shelf right now and that is tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow. Just finished it. Great book, loved it and I love the cover yeah, it is a nice cover and I feel like with with the kindle you're losing. It's almost like if you just do a digital download of an album yeah, you're totally missing out on board with nowadays.
Speaker 4:I'm okay with a huge music fan. I'm okay with it, too, as a music fan.
Speaker 2:But like the artists, put effort into I love the album artwork having the album artwork yeah, and I feel like the same thing with authors. We don't know how much effort they put, but like certain book jackets to me are like striking. And I kind of like having that in front of me to look back to, I don't know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, sometimes if a book I loved it on the Kindle, I usually buy it the paper version to have it. I like that idea. But here's one thing that I'll say that you guys don't get in your little regular books.
Speaker 2:Unless you get them out of the library.
Speaker 1:What we don't get in our little regular, you get a free sample of the book, so it's like I get to read the first chapter. Usually, if I don't like it, I have to buy it.
Speaker 3:There you go, the plot thickens.
Speaker 1:The plot does thicken Because I actually it's very hard for me to, like certain, often have to read a sample.
Speaker 4:I have the disease where I'll like finish a whole book, where I like kind of don't like it the whole time. Well, that's another. How wise is a question?
Speaker 2:didn't we already talk about we didn't do it on an episode, but how wise is it to quit a book?
Speaker 4:yeah, yeah, maybe we'll save that.
Speaker 2:Save that for another one next episode, because I think I suffer from that disease as well, that I will suffer through is that masochism?
Speaker 4:or is that um we'll?
Speaker 1:save that yeah, yeah because a lot of people have that issue and I don't have that. Even books I like, sometimes I'm like, oh, I don't feel like reading.
Speaker 4:I guess I never finished them. I was binge reading all the Albert Camus books and you were like how are you liking this one? I'm like another turkey.
Speaker 1:I know I was like you can put it down.
Speaker 4:Shout out Eric Gildenberg, who got me three Albert Camus books for my birthday. Love you, I like those books.
Speaker 1:I think they were in the context of like high school english, where it's like I liked one of them more than the rest.
Speaker 4:Did I like the trial, or is there one called the trial? Is that the stranger the play I liked the stranger the best someone classic.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so maybe I mean, we think about it always, just depends on context yeah, it's not not wise to have access to a kindle.
Speaker 3:It's definitely wise to have access to it yeah, you could use my I have access.
Speaker 1:I was listening to a podcast where a guy read a book and he's like, okay, I'll borrow it from you. If you say it's so good, I'll borrow from you. He's like, oh, I actually I read him on kindle. He's like all right, give me your kindle.
Speaker 2:He's like no see, that's what I'm saying right like that's that's one of the.
Speaker 1:That's one of the hurdles with it is it's like you're not gonna give your kindle yeah but you can give a book, yeah, yeah, yeah. My brother convinced me to get the kindle and so wait, here's a question.
Speaker 2:Another question does so obviously. Like hardcover is more expensive than paperback, is Kindle just a flat price?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's usually a little cheaper than the paperback.
Speaker 2:Wow, it is cheaper. Well, there you go. So from a financial aspect, it might be wiser.
Speaker 4:But it's also you're paying Amazon, not wise. But if you're buying your book on Amazon, then it's also. Then you're also paying them?
Speaker 3:yeah, got it, but that's why you should hook up to your local library.
Speaker 5:You have the e-reads from your local Libby app, which is a great app.
Speaker 2:You can get away in line a lot.
Speaker 3:Do it that way we solved it Very special thanks to our guests.
Speaker 5:Pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for coming, anything you want to plug, like your practice or anything.
Speaker 5:No, I'll plug Josh and Kelly's wedding.
Speaker 4:Yeah, Jelly 2025, anyone can come coming up anyone can come.
Speaker 2:It's an open door policy. Yeah, open door thing endless beer and music.
Speaker 4:Motown music yeah, live band well please contact us.
Speaker 2:you can always contact me buttsbuttzjonathan at gmailcom if you have any questions or how wise is it questions? Thank you for reaching out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and if you want to reach me, my website is kksychotherapycom, so you can send me an inquiry there. Yeah, and thank you to Blanket Forts, thank you to Josh, thank you thank you to Blanket Forts.
Speaker 4:Thank you to Josh, thank you. Thank you, blanket Forts. Intro outro music. Joshbearfilmscom is my website. You can reach out to me there. Thank you, mom, for coming on.
Speaker 5:Yeah thank you for having me, guys.
Speaker 2:It was a pleasure we'll see you all next time.
Speaker 1:Until then, the wise mind happy hour podcast is for entertainment purposes only, not to be treated as medical advice. If you are struggling with your mental health, please seek medical attention or counseling.