The Wise Mind Happy Hour
Two therapists musing about the idea of an inner wise mind and how to connect with this psychic space in different contexts.
The Wise Mind Happy Hour
Forgiveness Meets The Wise Mind
Forgiveness—what does it really mean, and why does it seem so impossibly difficult sometimes? We've all heard the phrase "forgive and forget," but as we discover in this episode, that common advice might be missing the point entirely.
- music by blanket forts -
okay, welcome to the wise mind happy hour podcast. So glad you could join us. I'm john and, as always, I'm joined by kelly, I'm here welcome welcome. I was thinking for some reason about a movie I just saw oh yeah, I was curious if you saw it tell. It is not a new film by any means. My kids, though, are getting older, so we get to introduce them to films oh so fun. That are not always so childlike. We gave this one a whirl Miscongeniality.
Speaker 2:Oh, I love that movie. I love that movie. I've seen it probably 68 times.
Speaker 1:I've seen it probably 68 times.
Speaker 4:I've seen it so many times. Did you just not want to say 69?
Speaker 1:I love that movie as well.
Speaker 2:It's great.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what did your kids think of it? My youngest was in and out. My oldest really liked it Good and the next day he was playing FBI. Oh cute, like you wanted to be like an fbi agent. I love it, I know sandra bullock is she's great
Speaker 2:incredible.
Speaker 1:She's so funny yes, michael cain is also so funny in that movie so good. Yeah, god, they don't make them like that anymore they don't, I don't know, good, clean, fun for some reason. As I was introing the podcast just now, miss Congeniality came to mind, so I was like I have to mention it, I love it.
Speaker 2:I mean, I really love it. Have you seen it?
Speaker 4:Josh, Not really my sister used to watch it on VHS, I think once a week.
Speaker 1:And I was like my club, so I just wasn't perfect aligned.
Speaker 4:I've come around to rom-coms more so since then.
Speaker 1:Fight club's also great, though, yeah yeah, totally didn't have a sequel, though I love the vhs reference too yeah, yeah, I, but I had fight club on dvd, so I guess it was in that between it was yeah, we had.
Speaker 4:We were watching vhs's and dvds almost interchangeably.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, totally so funny. Yeah, it's so cute. I really love that movie. I mean honestly no notes on that movie. I mean I guess I haven't watched it in a while. Was there anything problematic in it?
Speaker 1:well, I think there's a few things that are a little bit, and nothing egregious though, but um you know, I think certainly the idea of like we have to find oh, femininity, yeah, we have to find like, yeah, totally, you know a really hot quote-unquote agent in order to so.
Speaker 1:Then there's like a scene where they're like using a computer program right, yeah, oh yeah dress up women so and they're like oh, sandra bullock like looks more masculine, so she's disgusting and then the team, they, when they put cameras on her to go into like the beauty contests and everything like you know they have like little yeah and so the guys are kind of like watching it and and chumming around the other fbi agents right um, certainly.
Speaker 1:My wife, sarah, did a great job of telling my boys. If I ever hear, any language like this is not appropriate. You know very quickly we were right there.
Speaker 2:Otherwise, though, I think overall it hasn't aged too badly yeah, it's so interesting like I always think about like how the hell I would handle things like that if, hopefully one day I'm a parent. Because it's like I I get so caught up in like, like like them seeing that right and and it's like how do you help them both like not objectify and join in that but also not be like sex negative. Now I'm not saying sarah was at all, I, I just wonder like it's a, I feel like it's a tough line to walk right where it's like can people enjoy like the bodies of other people? Where? Where does that become the most problematic?
Speaker 2:And definitely in the objectifying which all those movies are entirely that. But it's confusing where it's like I think that will be an ongoing struggle you know to like, because now that we're talking about it I'm like yeah, I'm sure this movie has tons of problematic stuff you know that were totally like normative at the time or like overlooked at the time. But yeah, it's like a confusing.
Speaker 1:It's such a confusing Well there's the rewatch by yourself, and then you're thinking about man. Yeah, that's the way people talked back then yeah you know so, then there's that. But then there's the layer of right having your kids present.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And you're watching it having those thoughts, and then it's like what am.
Speaker 2:I saying to my kids Right, right, and then I also have like the body positivity angle, where it's like because I'll even you know of, of course, I'm steeped in all this, like you know body image and like bias towards like traditional beauty standards, and it's like I can see like an actress's body on tv and be like whoa, her body looks amazing. And then it's like I have to question like why do I think that's more amazing than this body?
Speaker 2:you know, and like unravel that a little bit and it's hard. It's like everything is hard, you know, and how, and I definitely I'm sure like and this is easier to do pre-kids start to like fantasize about perfectly handling all the moments like that and there is no way.
Speaker 1:That's the thing. It's a long runway too. It's like you're not going to have these things settled in one conversation with your kids. It's like ongoing. It's an ongoing conversation, although my oldest did ask the question why are they in bathing suits? Yes, I love that, and it was like we were both like yeah, exactly like. Why is that important?
Speaker 2:yeah, why do they have a swimsuit competition? Because, like the physical shape, size of their body is how they're judged A big part of how they're judged in a competition like this.
Speaker 1:So I think, even that question, the fact that that question was raised as a shift, because probably when I was a kid. It'd be like this is what they do.
Speaker 2:It'd be like cool yeah, people are hot.
Speaker 3:I like it, yeah, but I'm good, but I'm a good guy and I respect women.
Speaker 1:This is the way it is, you know yeah yeah the fact that there's even a, a I think genuine, that was a genuine question of curiosity of like, why is this? I think that was great. Yeah, that's incredible. It's exactly. Why is that? Yeah, what is the reason for?
Speaker 2:that yeah, man, the next generation. Hopefully there's gonna be a lot of good ones in there with a lot of perspective I hope so I'm hopeful, I'm hopeful, I'm hopeful, I am have you seen any good movies lately? Yeah, what did we watch? Well, we started watching a show that we kind of just stopped watching, called Landman. That's the one with Jon Hamm.
Speaker 1:Landman.
Speaker 2:It's by the people who did Yellowstone.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, and it's with Billy Bob.
Speaker 2:Thornton. Oh, the first episode kind of we were like okay.
Speaker 1:And we got to episode three and I was like yeah, I don't think I can take this.
Speaker 2:Okay, is it getting kind?
Speaker 1:of melodramatic, kind of cheesy, is it getting good reviews I?
Speaker 2:think it is getting good reviews just wasn't for you just not for us. I think we can be a little picky with tv. We just finished mad men and actually we finished running point and loved it.
Speaker 1:Running Point is hilarious, I mean it's so funny. It's great.
Speaker 2:That, to me, is a high-quality show.
Speaker 1:For sure.
Speaker 2:Super funny, super fun. Kate Hudson's really funny.
Speaker 1:Kate Hudson can also do physical comedy.
Speaker 2:Oh, totally. She slammed her head in that clear glass so many times, so many times, so funny. She is hilarious and she's not scared to do the physical comedy like she, yeah or make fun of herself totally, she's right there expand. Or like an inspiring figure who's like seems very like self-possessed yeah, great show.
Speaker 1:I'm glad it's coming out for a second season yeah, totally or at least that's what they told us.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, I think, I think it'll be great. It's by. A lot of the writers are like perks and rec writers isn't.
Speaker 1:It. Is that a mandy?
Speaker 3:oh mindy, yeah like production and she's great.
Speaker 2:Yeah, she's so funny, right, so that'll be great. Yeah, loved that, so that was really good. The basketball show on netflix, where it's a comedy if you haven't seen it, um, great. So yeah, movies. Have we watched a movie in a minute, not in a minute? What's the? It's a comedy. If you haven't seen it, great. So yeah, movies. Have we watched a movie in a minute?
Speaker 4:Not in a minute.
Speaker 2:What's the last movie we watched?
Speaker 4:Did we talk about another round on here already?
Speaker 2:Oh my God, John did we talk about that?
Speaker 3:I don't think so.
Speaker 1:About the Alki.
Speaker 4:Hall and the teachers. It's like a.
Speaker 2:Danish movie. It's great About these four teachers at like a prep school. There's some scientist in scandinavia I don't know if they made him up for the movie or if he's real, but he has this controversial argument like that. The natural human blood alcohol level is like a little bit below what it should be meaning. Humans to like function optimally should be like a little just a little bit drunk all the time oh so they test this theory, these four teachers, and it's.
Speaker 2:The movie is like funny and heartwarming and dark and like this sounds familiar.
Speaker 1:I feel like I've read the description of this movie.
Speaker 2:Yes, it is great.
Speaker 4:I loved it. I can't stop thinking about it. Who's in it?
Speaker 2:So they're Scandinavian actors oh, okay, but you might recognize the main guy because he was a Bond villain at one point.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, I know exactly who you're talking about. Yes, yeah, I must have read this or seen the.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was on Hulu, I think for a bit. Yeah, he's great in it. It's so good and I've never seen a movie like it. It's kind of raising really interesting questions and not really settling them.
Speaker 4:No, and we were laughing our asses off. We were laughing, and then it gets very dark. It's a great movie.
Speaker 1:It's a great movie yeah. And what's it called?
Speaker 3:again another round another round.
Speaker 2:Yeah, let's look into that. Yeah, I loved it. Yeah, so yeah, that was a good one um, we already talked about the substance.
Speaker 4:Don't watch it. It was my second favorite movie of 2020.
Speaker 2:I thought it was a good movie, but I hope to never see it again disgusting.
Speaker 4:Did you watch it?
Speaker 2:no, it's pretty grotesque, strongly it's pretty grotesque.
Speaker 4:Strongly recommend.
Speaker 1:Strongly recommend Pretty grotesque.
Speaker 2:Yeah, a lot of body horror Okay. And also a lot of like. I was confronted with my own like moments of vanity and being like. Oh my God, this is so disgusting to be vain.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you're not selling it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's okay, but it's interesting. Interesting, it's like a. It's a definitely an interesting like allegorical representation of like getting lost in vanity and like pursuit of youth and yeah, it's really interesting. Yeah, that was a good one, but I will never watch it again.
Speaker 4:Fair enough and it's hard to like recommend it I would recommend it if you like horror, if you like david blanch, if you like david cronenberg, if you like gross but funny movies involving mutating bodies yeah with like bizarre cinematography and visuals and dark comedy check, check it out.
Speaker 2:You like all that stuff. Lots of fish eye, every single fish eye lens like every shot.
Speaker 1:I was just looking actually for a movie that checked all those boxes well, look no further.
Speaker 2:That is the movie and then watch spy kids 3d I mean I'm telling you I am a sucker for that fish eye lens, like I like a movie that has a fish eye camera. You didn't like the favorite. No, I didn't like that lots of fish did you see the favorite? No, did you ever see poor things? No that one is great and it's the same director, but I personally did not like the favorite. There's a scene scene where Olivia Coleman do you know Olivia Coleman?
Speaker 3:No.
Speaker 1:This is just turning into me not knowing anything.
Speaker 2:I mean, I'm also like marrying a filmmaker, so that's a little bit different, but there's a part where she plays this like 15th century queen and it's a pretty like bizarre representation of it.
Speaker 2:And there's a one point where the queen is taking pieces, giant pieces of cake and like slamming them down her throat and then puking into a bucket wow it's wild disturbing yeah, it's very disturbing, yeah I mean obviously it's an early representation of like bulimia and like binge purge, like is coping, and she basically plays a queen who's like incredibly emotionally, I mean I guess maybe developmentally delayed, even um, and yeah, it's a pretty bizarre movie but a lot of people liked it. I didn't love it, but that's okay. Um, yeah, but that's kind of where we've been on movies, yeah, but maybe I mean, maybe we get into our topic our topic today yeah, why not? Yeah, this came up, we're gonna talk today about forgiveness yes, and we're.
Speaker 2:We're thinking mostly about forgiving others. Yeah, I think yeah more interpersonally, probably.
Speaker 1:I think one thing that was very striking was the idea a lot of people bringing up this notion of we hear all the time forgive and forget, yeah, and that is that what. Well, one, people were kind of questioning how do you do that? And two, is that something that's even useful or attainable, the idea of, like, forgetting things?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So I don't know, I mean that was kind of the start of the conversation and then it morphed into well, you know, it's more of maybe a process than an event.
Speaker 4:Right.
Speaker 1:It's an ongoing process. There's an ebb and flow to it, and then it kind of morphed into it being more of like an active choice. There were some people who wanted the feeling of it to come first a little bit like really tethered to.
Speaker 1:I want to have less distressing feelings towards, maybe, a person. I want to have more warm feelings towards them and then I will forgive, versus the idea that forgiveness really is an active choice and you have to almost you don't have to but engage and open yourself up to. I'm going to choose to forgive this person.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And maybe the emotional impact of that may change.
Speaker 2:That phrase or that, like whatever, uh as an aphorism of that forgive and forget.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, it's like I almost have this urge to like imagine that that's like the wise thing to do, and then like think of it from there, so it's like the wise thing to do. And then like think of it from there, so it's like someone let's say someone like you break up with someone and then like one of your friends like maybe two, three months later starts dating them and you're given this advice to like forgive and forget. What does that actually mean?
Speaker 1:it would be to like set down like your anger at the person and you're hurt yeah I don't know I feel like the forget makes me think of aren't you going to possibly make the same mistakes again, if we're literally thinking about forgetting something? I know that's not what it's going for. My guess would be right forget, meaning, try to maybe put it out, it out of your mind yeah it's holding you back yeah you can't move forward until you you're so hyper focused on this, the wronged, whatever the wrong was. We need to kind of forget that to move forward yeah, you can't really like.
Speaker 1:I understand the idea. You can't like completely forget, but I don't like it. It doesn't feel wise to me, because it just feels like you're not learning, you're not creating new connection or meaning from that thing and it's importance, whatever that yeah um transgression was or rift or rupture was yeah, and you know it's almost like the forgetting piece, like first of all.
Speaker 2:It's like you can't really tell your memory to do exactly you want it to, and it's like, if you truly come to a place of forgiveness of someone you very well might, the memory might soften and fade. I think that does happen when you adequately process something. You tend to it kind of fades Not gone but integrated, and and that's why it seems almost just unnecessary to tell someone to do the forgetting piece.
Speaker 2:The primary piece that's of essence is the forgiveness piece, and how much the memory changes is kind of up to the mind and up to something that's not you. That's the thing If the aim is to forgive in order to get away from the pain.
Speaker 1:I think that's where probably most of the people we are working with are patients, and for every human right, ourselves included, we're not exempt of that but certainly they are looking for maybe the cheat code a little bit of like how can I just move past this? And, yeah, either forgive this person and everything is better or, if that's not possible, maybe I can't have this person in my life yeah which there's so much middle ground there versus those two things totally yeah.
Speaker 2:It's like oh, I guess I'll, just because I I definitely have come across a lot of people or clients or whatever. That it's sort of like I'll just forgive them. It's like easier than like confronting the situation, moving through it more mindfully, and I think that isn't really forgiveness I think that is avoidance, that is ignoring, that is that bypassing that won't really be gotten, because it's like kind of truth rises to the surface and or things will bubble under the surface and then there is mental distress.
Speaker 2:That's even harder to like track and understand and deal with when things are kind of buried, yeah.
Speaker 1:So I think it's like I think the the I'm cutting you off. I know I think the question always comes back to where do I like? How do I start?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:What do you think of that? Like, if, if somebody were to come to you and like I want to forgive, where do you start? Yeah, because that came up in the group, it was like, but where do I even begin with this? And certainly, context, everybody's context is different and what they were talking about and and we don't know everybody's specific issue as it related to it I think that's a common question though.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would probably say, you know, tell me the situation and your like perspective on it. Maybe then go to the felt sense, like you know, when you or I often will say, as you talk about this what do you feel? If you turn that attention inward, to the body, what's there, and often then they'll talk a little bit more from like their relationship to the situation, because it's like if there's needed forgiveness here, there's often needed like forgiveness here in the body, in the self, among the parts of them. So, yeah, it's like figuring out, you know, if it's like, let's say, it's the situation where someone's ex-partner is like dating their friend and they're angry with their friend, feel like betrayed or hurt.
Speaker 2:You know it's like. Tell me the situation, maybe they'd say I'm just, I can't believe she would do that to me, that she would care more about like her attraction to this person and interest in them than like our friendship and our bond. And how much that would break my heart and I feel so unloved by my friend.
Speaker 2:That is to be dealt with, I think, before the forgiveness of the friend is like the core right, like what is the core that comes up for you, what is like the narrative that's brought up, the part that's brought up. You know the private event there what is that?
Speaker 2:and being with that. So you're feeling really not loved. And then you know it's like looking at how they're coping with that in that moment, right, because they're not forgiving, yet they want to. What are they doing instead? You know, and they'll be like I'm coming here talking to you about it, you know or it might be like, like I would do, I'd probably pitch to josh about it or like be in my own head, like fuck this person you know like a lot of anger and like pushing against resisting willfulness.
Speaker 2:Definitely for me, some people might numb, might start drinking, might yeah.
Speaker 1:Another interesting thing that's come up in the group space over the years is this idea of like people that may have a tendency to forgive too much, like they're too forgiving or it's almost like they feel like that's like part of their character. Um, I have seen that over the years as well.
Speaker 1:Like I lean too much into not holding boundaries with people and things that people do that aren't okay, I say are okay and I'm and and I think the re and even my reaction internally was like why I wasn't, my head wasn't even in that place that idea of almost like I'm too forgiving of a person and I have been my whole life I've never really been angry at someone or people have kind of noticed that in me and taken advantage of that in me.
Speaker 2:I almost think that's probably not forgiveness, because I'm almost holding this and maybe this is just me this like sacred space around the word, because I think, with forgiveness I don't think I think there has to be pain first that you're really traversing. There has to be full engagement with the moment as it is to move through to real forgiveness. And I think the people who like right away forgive kind of, are just folding like surrendering in a way, that's like abandoning of themselves, which, like you could totally like call that forgiveness for sure. But I think maybe, if we say a capital f, forgiveness involves like going toward, like the ugliness of it, the pain of it, and like really processing that. What is the hurt you feel, what is really here? You, before you're trying to fix it or find a next step in this step or, like you know the whole metaphor, right, put down the shovel and like be here.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And like see what's there. Yeah, because I think there are people who like, yeah, they're just like, oh, it's fine. I just like kind of said like whatever I have an I deal with so many people in my, in all my years of being a therapist that that is such a comfort zone to just like ignore their own hurt to the other person and you know, always let go of an issue. And, yeah, I think there can be huge problems with that right.
Speaker 1:The other thing was the idea of if the other especially like, because we're talking interpersonally, what if the other person just really doesn't show any remorse, yes, or, or has even offered even a half-hearted apology. Like, just no apology, or even you know, because I think that creates such a barrier too. So now you're telling me I have to. In order for me to be well for myself, I have to forgive this person, and they're doing whatever. They don't even know the hurt, or they?
Speaker 2:you know that type of thing Totally.
Speaker 1:So that was another like wrinkle in this very huge yeah, that is like a white whale for me.
Speaker 2:When in my own life, like when someone isn't remorseful or even aware, god, I can rage so much against that in my mind, like how could you not be sorry, god, I can rage so much against that in my mind, like how could you not be sorry and I can't let go if they're not sorry? I feel like when I was younger too, that was a big thing. Yeah, and in those places for me maybe the word acceptance feels a little easier, really just allowing them to be as they are, like sometimes forgiveness is hard Like it feels like a step further.
Speaker 1:It does feel like a step further right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like I don't know why the word like baptism is coming up for me where it's like you like.
Speaker 1:It's your programming.
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally it's like you, like it's your programming, yeah, totally. It's like there's just this, like you really give over and like yeah, yeah, forgiveness it's a complex thing, as I'm saying that it does feel a step further. Forgiveness, it's a complex thing, as I'm saying that it does feel a step further. You're letting things be as they are and you're really re-embracing the person. I think is part of it. You don't just re-embrace the situation, you re-embrace them and I think, as they are, as they are, even if they're not sorry and they've hurt you, and that is hard.
Speaker 1:That is hard. It's hard enough if people are sorry Totally. But that's yeah the wow.
Speaker 2:It's funny, like when I went to one of my meditation apps that I hadn't been on in a really long time, like all the videos saved were like ones about forgiveness.
Speaker 4:Oh were they.
Speaker 2:Man, I was really struggling to forgive someone when I was looking at these.
Speaker 1:It wasn't more like self stuff.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, no. It was definitely forgiving others. One was a lecture that I then remembered listening to and I was like, oh yeah, I totally remember a time where this felt really painful yeah.
Speaker 1:It's so powerful though, oh yeah, I run into this though, oh yeah, and modeling like the importance of saying sorry and the importance of you know words hurt and you know, like, if my kids do apologize, well, of course I forgive you, I love you and you know, using that language, but also hopefully trying to model for them like, yeah, we're going to say hurtful stuff and and apologies are important and all you know, and asking for somebody's forgiveness is warranted totally you know in life and it's hard as a parent because my knee-jerk reaction probably my emotion, mind and my anxiety tells me to try to not have them make the mistake.
Speaker 1:It's more yeah I need to lean into. Let them make it, and then it's how we again go through it how do? We navigate through it right instead of trying to be so cautious about and protective about them making the mistakes yeah so I think that falls also in line with, like I know, how important forgiveness can be in a lot of those situations to interpersonally when the when the brothers are at each other.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:When they're at us me and Sarah or when we're at them, you know, like when all of those dynamics are going on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, conflicts are going on. Yeah, you're so right. You're bringing up this other side where it's like what a gift it is to be able to have the vulnerability to forgive and apologize. You know, on either side, because it's like if you want to live in that wise mind, live authentically, do what feels deeply, intuitively right for you. You know there might be that fear. Well, what if that hurts someone? What if that inconveniences someone?
Speaker 3:What if?
Speaker 2:that that you know and in a genuine way you know, like because it will right, like you being your authentic self will hurt people and to know it's like in those cases when they bring that to you, like you have this ability, if it feels right and resonates with you, to say I'm sorry and mean it and repair and like knowing that that's there and there's this like ever-flowing state of like rupture and repair, and you can get there if you're just willing to be vulnerable. What a magical power that is If you can do it sincerely. I think it's wonderful to do it, but it can be hard. Can be hard to sincerely apologize and to forgive. They're both hard. Do you ever listen to Mark Maron's podcast WTF?
Speaker 1:No, but I know you have been talking about it for years, yeah, for 6,000 years. And how many episodes does he have? Probably like thousands, huh oh my God, he's had thousands yeah, was he the original podcaster?
Speaker 3:He had thousands like five years ago.
Speaker 2:He almost feels like the original podcaster. He actually had Brene Brown on.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 2:And this was a while ago. It was a great episode. God, it was such a good episode. I was like all her stuff is, but he, um, they were talking about like celebrities getting canceled, like in the me too movement, and like it was right around that time or like a little bit after that time. Um, and I I liked that he brought this up because, like at that time, really, the company line was like this is just 100 horrendous and that's all we say about it. And mark was like you know, because he had bernie brown on and he respects her so much. He was like is there room anywhere for forgiveness?
Speaker 1:of of these people who are who have been canceled?
Speaker 2:yes, yeah, you know, and he was talking about he's like you know, I'm a comedian, like I am personal friends with some of these people that have done these things and like I feel I feel confused about it, how to engage with them, how to like think of them, refer to them in my stuff and whatever. And and I I really appreciated that Brene Brown was like admitting she's like this is an area that I've been stumped in before and she was saying I think that she had interviewed a lot of, like rabbis at one point in her research, cause she does that narrative work right Like owning your story, telling the story of yourself honestly and owning that as like that gateway to self-worth and wholeness.
Speaker 2:And she was saying that the rabbi she wasn't like totally linear in how she explained this, but she was saying like the difficult thing about forgiveness is like something has to die for you to do it. And it's unlike anything else and maybe meaning like a fantasy about the world about your life about relationships like has to be buried. You know like.
Speaker 1:Or like the hope that somebody's going to say sorry or the hope that somebody's going to be remorseful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, is that I mean? I think totally.
Speaker 1:Is that, like all of these things, All of? These things, yeah, yeah, you kind of truly have to let die or, or even like the, the idea that, like I have to understand yeah like this thing, whatever this action or you know, whatever happened, whatever trans again transgression, or whatever transpired like yeah I have all the information. It still doesn't make sense yeah I have to let that die a little bit Like maybe I'll never understand it and can I? Still forgive.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's almost like, and I wonder if, like, if you take some like really extreme situation, let's say, like your parent like physically abused you or something in a really I mean just any kind of physical abuse, abuse in general, like forgiving them, yeah, I could see the idea that something has to die and then there isn't much doing, there's a being in a very messy but real space. I think that might be a part of it, like resolution that feels neat and organized.
Speaker 2:Probably has to die to really forgive someone for something especially like heinous, and it's hard man this is a tough one yeah, it's intense it is but it is like, because it's so intense, I think it is like a super powerful thing and you know, we are like living in a culture right now that is pretty like anti-forgiveness, not even that but it's like you step out of line once and people are like done and and it is. It is an interesting thing Cause I both like support a lot about it and, yeah, I can see how it's more complex than is being discussed.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think about things like the me too movement or whatever, and I'm like probably had to be as extreme as it was for these people with immense power to come down. What else was going to do it? You know, I see the value or like function in that too, even if it's not capturing the whole picture.
Speaker 1:Yeah maybe at that time, maybe Marc Maron's question was too soon. Yeah, it's a great question, and maybe nobody was even conceptualizing that. Whenever I'm assuming this was a while ago, so maybe some time does have to pass Totally Before that conversation starts of like what would forgiveness of, I don't some of these people? Or his friends like what would that look like? And who's forgiving?
Speaker 3:Is it society?
Speaker 4:Is it does?
Speaker 1:that mean they have a place again to do stand-up? Does that mean? Is that what forgiveness looks like?
Speaker 2:They can earn money again, which they already can do.
Speaker 1:Right, right, what forgiveness looks like they can earn money again which they already can do Right.
Speaker 1:Right, I think that's been proven, that they don't need forgiveness in order to make more money. There's probably many examples of that, but I think it's an interesting question that sometimes it's just too raw, no matter the circumstance. Yeah, it's like we're not even talking about that just yet. It's like we have to sit in the rawness of it, like you said the pain right and all that difficult stuff. Like we got to sit in that first before we're making moves, if we're going to make moves.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it almost the large scale version mimics the short term right, where, if you're just like, okay, they're forgiven, nothing's really actually happened there. And yeah, if you immediately to start talking and start the conversation about forgiveness, and these horrible things have happened to so many, mostly women, but men too, and and you know, different identities being victimized, like there has to be a huge space to recognize the pain.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's the thing is there's a lack of understanding the impact if we just move quickly to the. Is there? Yeah space for forgiveness, and what would that look like? We're still unpacking the impact, yeah which is a weird way of saying it like allowing space for that to breathe yeah, totally well again, we've completely solved it I mean I feel, probably lower than we felt when we were talking about this congeniality I know this is.
Speaker 1:I think that's what's interesting about our podcast is sometimes I feel so much lighter and clearer. A lot of times I but sometimes it's just like Ooh, I really need to think about this a lot more. It's definitely not a bad thing. It's just, you know, that's why I like doing this Cause it's like so many different ways of looking at it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I feel that too. This one is a big one. This one we'll be thinking about forever probably, but maybe we'll pause there and go to our how wise is it question. So how wise is it to have a tattoo or get body art of some kind? Yeah, well, I'll say, I do not have any body art or tattoos.
Speaker 1:I do and John does. I do have a tattoo.
Speaker 2:Okay, sweet and John.
Speaker 1:I don't have a tattoo, okay, okay, I've always thought about getting more. I think it is true sometimes when people say once you get one, you want more yeah, I just have not thought about it can I ask was it painful? It was not excruciating, but I mean it's not the biggest tattoo. It was painful, but I mean I had my headphones on, I was just listening to music and it wasn't too bad. What were you listening to? Something in the wheelhouse of like Notorious BIG or like Tribe Called?
Speaker 1:Quest, that's good tattoo music or probably Notorious something like that Ready to Die was an album that had a long stretch. It was always a go-to for me. So, um, yeah, something like that.
Speaker 2:But I love that getting a tattoo listening to, ready to die ready to die.
Speaker 1:It's badass yeah I think it's wise to get body art I've never I have not regretted it and I think for me it was a way to remember a family member of mine that passed away my grandfather. So it's a reminder and it's something that is pretty close to my heart, so I like it.
Speaker 2:I like that. A memory and a symbol that keeps someone, their, their memory or their ethos like close to your heart.
Speaker 1:I like that, but I also think it's in a way, limiting me from getting another one, because now I feel like my other one needs to be meaningful and now I'm kind of like stuck.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I just need to get one that has no meaning. Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1:That's hard though.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Maybe we'll get one after the show.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm getting one tonight.
Speaker 4:Get a wise mind Happy hour. Happy hour tattoo and then you'll never forget us. My face, it's going to be on my face Forehead, tat.
Speaker 1:I mean, forget us my face. It's gonna be on my face forehead, tat. I mean obviously. How wise is it? Well, it's wise until you regret it right, I mean, certainly people have tattoos that they probably regret and then, they get them removed.
Speaker 2:And then I have a friend who's getting all her tattoos removed.
Speaker 1:She has a lot oh really, I hear that's a painful process yeah, she said it's very painful ouch and she kind of has the skin type where they're like.
Speaker 2:It may not ever completely fade oh which she's my friend megan is there any? I mean, you don't have to shout out to megan air her stuff on the podcast, but is there any particular reason why? Or I think it's aesthetically, she doesn't like them anymore okay it's more and more.
Speaker 1:That's the risky run. Yeah, yeah, I think it was like more. She doesn't like them anymore.
Speaker 2:Okay, it's more and more aesthetic. That's the risky run, yeah, yeah, I think it was like more her aesthetic when she was younger and now she's like a working professional.
Speaker 1:Yeah, see, mine's not that big and it's bless you and it's on my back so it's easily hidden. So, even if I did have more regrets about it.
Speaker 2:I don't really think it would impact me that much. Yeah, yeah, hers are pretty visible, yeah. And I'm trying to think now, like I don't have any tattoos, so it's like what really is the reason, and I think for me it wasn't so much like. I think, when I see people with a bunch of tattoos, I think it looks really cool, and I've had moments where I'm like, oh man, I wish I had like today, I wish I had a sleeve of tattoos. You know, like I would say that on one day yeah but then there'd probably be a lot of other days.
Speaker 2:I'd be pretty happy that I don't, and I don't like painful stuff. So I think the combo of that just like never brought me into a tattoo studio.
Speaker 1:Yeah because I think a lot of people will say, yeah, it doesn't hurt, I think it does. I mean it's needles in you and I think everybody has different. Obviously, pain, yeah, thresholds, intolerance, but anytime needles are going into you, it's there's, it's going to be uncomfortable yeah, totally so if you're not into pain, yeah, and more often than not you're like yeah, probably not. Yeah, probably not.
Speaker 2:A wise decision yeah, I think for me that's a big part of why it wasn't. I was like you know. I think I'm gonna want to not have them more than I want to have them. And yeah, I never had like a.
Speaker 1:Oh, I want this symbol I always remember thinking too when I was a kid, because the tattoo I got is for my paternal grandfather. He had a tattoo on his arm and I always just thought it looked so rad yeah and it was a horror. It was not even a good looking tattoo. It was like the Marine Corps symbol.
Speaker 2:Sewing needle.
Speaker 1:It was like whatever the Marine Corps symbol is. And he had it tattooed on his arm.
Speaker 3:It was all faded.
Speaker 1:It was kind of color. It didn't even really look that, but I just thought it was so cool. So that probably influenced me too, where I was like this is awesome.
Speaker 2:Yeah, was it faded, do you think? Because I was thinking like someone in the Marine Corps did it with like a sewing needle on him.
Speaker 1:I have no idea where he got it done or who did it, but certainly there were probably a few credits shy of being an amazing tattoo artist oh, got it.
Speaker 4:And I think it's just with age it fades.
Speaker 1:That's why I didn't want to get color, because mine's just black. So I was like I don't want like a bunch of colors fading because you might have to like get it touched up and all of that, but I just thought to have that like permanently. Just as a kid, I was like wowed by that. I was like, wow, that's never going away. Yeah that's so cool it's never going away.
Speaker 3:It's never going away. Yeah, it does to a kid.
Speaker 2:It feels very like when I'm an adult my body's my own and I can do that.
Speaker 1:It felt so badass. I was like that's amazing. Yeah, now, granted, this was also a man who was, like you know, smoking cigarettes while talking to me, and blowing like smoke rings and things like that.
Speaker 2:And at that time I was, I was like god.
Speaker 1:That's so cool. This guy's the coolest. This is amazing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, tattoos and cigarettes like this is great. I love it so wise, yeah. What about you, josh?
Speaker 4:I, my gut instinct is to say it's wise, especially if you want one. I just think it's like self-expression and, you know, authenticity. I I've never felt compelled to get one and I think it's probably largely my perfectionism that I would want to get something that I feel so confident I'm going to want on my body forever. And like I don't know, I'm busy, like I've had a laptop for six months I haven't set up and you know it's like hard for me to make time to get a haircut when I want one.
Speaker 4:So, there's a lot of factors at play here. Like, if you were super into tattoos, I'd probably be like fuck it, let's go get one. But you're not. None of my family members are. Most of my friends aren't super into tattoos. And at the same time I guess like when my when my dog passed away a couple years ago I had this thought of like, oh, it would be nice to get a tattoo of his face and I, like, talked about it with my sister and my mom and we just didn't end up doing it.
Speaker 4:So I don't know, and I know in like Jewish culture there's like I guess if you get a tattoo, you can't be buried in a Jewish grave. I've heard that. I don't think. That's why I haven't gotten one. I just yeah. I may, but I might not, and I'm you know. I think it'll be wise if I decide to get one, but I don't think it's unwise that I haven't gotten one.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think the perfectionism can really hold you back from it, because not you specifically, but even like specifically thinking about like what I think that's what's held me back from getting a second one is not only that it's not meaningful enough, but also like it's got to look a certain way. It's got. And then once you start going on the path of like the exact way you want it to look I mean, unless you really are artistic and can design it yourself even then it's still like really difficult. Now my wife, sarah, has two tattoos and I will say that I think a lot of her friends have said yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean you're going to have some if you want to get multiple tattoos. You know some mistakes in there and you just got to kind of have to live with it. You know a few of the regrets, which I think is an exercise in in a way of kind of releasing, relinquishing some control totally, totally I love that and both of sarah's tattoos are great.
Speaker 3:They're beautiful, but it's funny that her friends who have multiple tattoos are kind of like yeah, you're gonna have a few that are just you're not the most jazzed about yeah, totally which is a great way to look at it like yeah what's holding me back is yeah maybe
Speaker 2:just go for it I love it and I've also heard people talk about it's like a nice way to reclaim your body if you're struggling with body image and I like that. I love that idea.
Speaker 1:Express yourself, you know a lot of wise things about it and not getting it either yeah, totally, totally.
Speaker 2:So it turns out we're both just kind of like boring lazy about it.
Speaker 4:Yeah, we're both really lazy, but very wise yeah, who knows?
Speaker 1:you never know. 10 years from now. Yeah, get a tattoo you might both have sleeves me and sirsha well, we're both gonna get tattoos of sirsha.
Speaker 4:Oh, that would be Kelly's niece. Okay, what about? Yeah, I mean, what if your?
Speaker 1:What if one of your nieces was dead set on you getting it? Yeah, I would get one. Oh, there we go.
Speaker 4:That's what it is.
Speaker 2:I would basically do anything. They asked there you go.
Speaker 4:A shamrock.
Speaker 2:Would you get listen? Oh, a leprechaun I mean, I'd ultimately probably do what they wanted.
Speaker 4:But okay, I'd want to collaborate with them on design.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, maybe a flu or that gives me the fantasy that I'll be loved by them enough when they're like teens, but they would push you over the edge into the territory of being like we're doing this yeah, yeah, I'd be like sobbing, like this is so meaningful.
Speaker 2:I mean, yeah, sounds amazing. I hope that happens and then I'll get in contact with them yeah make it happen totally, totally okay. Well, yeah, it's wise, it's wise to get body art tattoos. Okay, I think that. I think that's it. I think that wraps us up, yeah thanks to both of you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thanks for everybody for listening for a little bit of a more difficult topic.
Speaker 2:Yeah, have your tone.
Speaker 1:But those are important for us to do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1:You can always find me butts beautyzjonathan at gmailcom, so email us. How wise questions? Or if you have a strong take on body art tattoos, let me know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally, and you can find me at KK psychotherapy dot com.
Speaker 4:And you can find me at Josh BAYER films Josh Bear Films dot com, the contact page. You can contact me.
Speaker 2:OK, thank you to Blanket Forts for the intro. Outro music.
Speaker 3:And that's it everyone. We'll see you next time.
Speaker 2:Take care everyone take care, bye, bye the wise mind happy hour podcast is, for entertainment purposes only, not to be treated as medical advice. If you are struggling with your mental health, please seek medical attention or counseling.