The Wise Mind Happy Hour
Two therapists musing about the idea of an inner wise mind and how to connect with this psychic space in different contexts.
The Wise Mind Happy Hour
Wisening up with Distress Tolerance
What do broken bread slicers, wedding planning, and Chicago's notorious Lower Wacker Drive all have in common? SHORT ANSWER: they all have the ability to test your distress tolerance. Ready to stop white-knuckling through difficult moments and start responding with greater wisdom? This episode might just change your life.
- music by blanket forts -
Welcome to the wise mind happy hour podcast. I'm Kelly.
Speaker 2:And I'm John. Hello everyone.
Speaker 1:Today we're going to talk a little bit about distress tolerance. Yikes, don't have it.
Speaker 2:Distress. Watch out, we're coming in hot on this episode.
Speaker 1:we're coming in hot for sure. So yeah, we'll talk about that. Generally, we can talk a little bit about it from different perspectives, right? Just the general casual idea of tolerating distress and we'll fold in wise mind, which is exciting too because we're going to be right in the epicenter.
Speaker 2:The mothership yeah, that's a great way to put it the mothership d. The mothership yeah, that's a great way to put it the mothership DBT.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the original text. But yeah, let's just check in. Tell us what's been going on with you lately, John.
Speaker 2:Do you ever before these episodes just completely draw a blank?
Speaker 1:that nothing has happened in your life, 100%, almost every week.
Speaker 2:When I was driving over here do you want to hear so? This week when I was driving over here, do you want to? So this is the the only thing that came up as I was driving over here. I was like I gotta think about my week, I gotta have something like a nice lake, and and I couldn't think of anything. The only thing that came up for me was this is a story about bread.
Speaker 2:This is how boring this I mean, there's no story about bread that I'm gonna be all ears for you're okay so I go grocery shopping and I go to the marianos and my kids are pretty particular about certain things, which I don't think is that odd. They're very particular about their bread choice. They really like the bread that's made at the bakery and marianos and I. I can't blame them.
Speaker 2:It's great bread yeah so I go there and we were probably buying like two to three loaves at a time, like once a week for these boys, nice. So I go to the bakery and I grab a loaf and I'm like, oh, that's really weird, it's not sliced, it's just like the whole loaf and I'm like oh, okay, well. I put it back. I grabbed the next one. It's not sliced slicer broke slicer broke so I like asked the person I'm like you know I mean, I didn't know that.
Speaker 2:I asked the person I'm like, I was like is there any way you could slice this? And they're like no broken and I was like, okay, so I call up sarah and I'm like, hey, like she was out shopping with the boys for like shorts and clothing and I was like, just to let you know, like we're gonna have a bread issue at some point so I can either get another loaf or um, I know you're out.
Speaker 2:If you're close to mariano's, which I knew she was, do you want to stop and get bread? And she's like, yeah, I'll just stop and get it.
Speaker 1:It's different mariano's. It's a different mariano's.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, so hopefully so she gets home and she's guess what. She tells me slicer was broken at the other marianos now that I sent a chill down my spine. How does that happen? How does that happen?
Speaker 1:so then, it was a new moon recently.
Speaker 2:So then we got into the conversation. Are all the slicers connected somehow like all? Like one speaking of a, of a mothership. One goes down and then they all go down, so that was god.
Speaker 1:Isn't that odd, or it's like, yeah, I mean, that is spooky weird, was this tuesday? Saturday wait, saturday was a new moon. One of my clients told me this no here we go there. There, I was just specific. Are we getting back?
Speaker 2:are we getting back? No, I was more glazing over about the astrology of it all. Are we getting into human design again? I thought we already put it. I thought we put that to bed last last week.
Speaker 1:That's probably why I thought of it new moon. Well, that's crazy that I actually didn't know and it's like you know how it's like the moon waxes, waxes, waxes, waxes and it's a full moon.
Speaker 3:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:I think from there it wanes, it wanes, it wanes, it wanes, it wanes, and then it's a new moon.
Speaker 2:And crazy. It's almost like a zero moon. Crazy stuff happens.
Speaker 1:then Bread slicers don't work. Yeah, it affects mainly bread, mainly bread. So we, so she ended up buying the unsliced. Yeah, so then I did you cut real thick slices oh, I mean, my kids are getting texas toast, it's unbelievable. It's like I'm trying really hard.
Speaker 2:I feel like there was like sweat coming down my head because I was like there's a lot of pressure here to like really deliver on this. I don't think I did, but, um, but this is what I thought of as I was driving over. I was like man, what like, what's happening with in my life this past week, and that was like that must have been a really potent thing yeah, anyway well you know honestly like what a weird coincidence it is very spooky.
Speaker 1:We had a couple we had. This isn't like spooky, but we had a couple mishaps. Last week josh and I were dropped off by an uber driver on the side of a lower whacker where we couldn't get out. Literally I was like we're gonna have to call the police crawl up a trash chute. We couldn't even even do that.
Speaker 2:We were stuck For people who don't live in Chicago that listen to our podcast. What's Lower Wacker?
Speaker 1:Lower Wacker. How would you?
Speaker 2:describe it. I know how I would describe it.
Speaker 1:It'll be the last place I see before I die. It's like this underground highway system downtown. They film Batman in it.
Speaker 2:That's the way I would have described it is. Yeah, the second.
Speaker 1:It's like very creepy, very confusing your gps. Yeah, the second one, the dark knight, your gps doesn't work. Down there we had an uber driver who, bless his heart, did not speak any english. He looked about 14, I'm assuming he had a license.
Speaker 2:But and when you say, like it's underground, it's an expressway, there's no off ramps, like once you're down there, it's like it's an expressway, there's no off ramps. Like, once you're down there, it's like you're going basically to the end. There's like a few exits, but you're in there.
Speaker 1:But yeah, it's like a maze and yeah, you're in there. There's not a lot of places to go. It's hard to figure out where you're going. Again, GPS goes out the window. It's like the bread slicer and we and we were going to a sushi restaurant in that St Regis Hotel and it's next to the highway. So he's like we're here and we're like wait, this is literally Lower Wacker and it said four-minute walk on the GPS and he literally just kept going no English, no English.
Speaker 2:Oh man.
Speaker 1:So we got out thinking there'll be somewhere we can walk closed sidewalk. Closed sidewalk cars going 90 miles an hour past us.
Speaker 2:I've never broken glass. I don't think I've heard of anybody being dropped off it felt like this is it.
Speaker 1:And then we called josh's family, who was in the restaurant, like you to come, get in a taxi and drive it past us.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, good thinking.
Speaker 1:So they, after a while they figured that out, cause I was like I mean, if I call my dad, he'll figure it out, but he's in the suburbs, so it's like you know, cause only dads know how to navigate lower Wacker in my experience. Right, you, you got to be someone who hates GPS and has lived in Chicago for 1,000 years, for a long time, and then it's like where are you? I know exactly where you are.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:Stay put. But I was like I'm not asking my dad who's almost 70, to come and get me on this animal worker on a Thursday night, Right? So his sister and her husband figured it out, which thank God, Shout out to Alex and Andrew for picking us up. Thank God, Shout out to Alex and Andrew for picking us up. They got us we got.
Speaker 3:It was Josh's birthday dinner.
Speaker 2:Oh happy birthday.
Speaker 1:Thank you yeah. Wait when was your birthday.
Speaker 3:Last Thursday, you want to say Thursday.
Speaker 1:It was his actual birthday, oh.
Speaker 3:Well, happy birthday.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much, John.
Speaker 3:John, can you tell me on air when your birthday is, because I missed it last time I want to make you a birthday playlist and I missed it. I was devastated.
Speaker 2:It's coming up July 30th, not too close. Oh, july 30th, july 30th.
Speaker 3:I'm going to listen to this when I'm editing it and make a mental note of it, I'll make a physical note in my calendar and then I'll make you a playlist closer to the time.
Speaker 2:It's also Wes's birthday. Yeah, thank you. Closer to the time, it's also.
Speaker 3:Wes's birthday. Yeah, he has the same birthday as Wes. Isn't that fun? I need to meet Wes before I make him a birthday plan. Yeah, it was good points. You need to get his aura. Get it.
Speaker 2:That is fun, though I've never heard of somebody getting dropped off on Lower Wacker.
Speaker 1:It was crazy. They gave us free dessert, though, because I really was in a bad spot Speaking of distress tolerance.
Speaker 2:I had a moment where I started to flip out. The word that comes to mind is harrowing.
Speaker 1:That is a harrowing experience and it was kind of cold and it's windy down there.
Speaker 2:Well, and there's? No, I would feel claustrophobic. No, there's, I would feel claustrophobic. Yeah, there's nowhere to go, there's nowhere to stand, like you were saying.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:There's no like median.
Speaker 1:Right or like, not that you could stand on.
Speaker 2:There's like a division between, like you know, yeah. Traffic, but.
Speaker 1:Totally, it was tough.
Speaker 2:Did the.
Speaker 3:Joker come by.
Speaker 1:I mean truly there was a guy walking past us and I mean truly. There was a guy walking past us and I was like Josh, I'm scared. And then he was a completely normal guy and he looks at us. He goes how the hell do I get out of here? And he was stuck too. He was trying to get to the hotel.
Speaker 2:I'm like this must happen every day. See, I think that there's something with certain, because we've had that as well downtown with GPS. Yeah, we're like we'll be outside of a hotel and we'll, you know whatever, get uber, lift, whatever, and the person's like circling someplace else or they will be on lower wacker yes and it's like their GPS is like telling them, or the system is telling them to go somewhere that, yes, you might be literally on the spot, but you're 100 feet below me.
Speaker 1:You know it's like levels, so it's yeah, there should literally be a setting on google maps that's no lower.
Speaker 2:You know it'll be like.
Speaker 1:Avoid highways, yeah, avoid lower wacker it's like to be blown off the map. I think it's a disgrace. It's so scary down there.
Speaker 2:I used to drive it every single day, wow, morning and night, because it was the easiest way to get from Lakeshore Drive. Which people do not care about this that are listening?
Speaker 1:to the podcast.
Speaker 2:It's the easiest way to get from Lakeshore Drive to, or not the easiest the fastest way to, 290. When I used to work in the western suburbs. Oh yes, yeah, that makes sense, and it does bypass a lot of traffic it bypasses a lot of traffic, and so I used to take it, but I never got stuck down there, thank god I.
Speaker 1:The other day I was, I'm happy you both are living. To tell this tale, I know, on josh's birthday, on his birthday oh, the other thing that happens we got our marriage license, which is so exciting all right, we got it one day before his birthday. So our marriage license says like josh bear, 35 years old, kelly go, get on 36 years old.
Speaker 3:I'm like if we waited one more day we're one month apart, but I will forever be one year younger by marriage is that a sticking point for you?
Speaker 2:I mean, I just laughed because I'm like we came one day before.
Speaker 1:It's gonna make it look like I'm significantly older.
Speaker 2:Did you go to um like where daily plaza or something?
Speaker 1:we actually went to the one in skokie. Oh okay, did they?
Speaker 2:ask was the first. One of the first questions they asked you is are you two related? Yeah, they did ask, that isn't that great when, sir and I'll always remember that when we like walk and they just ask it so nonchalantly that it's almost as if if I said yes, they wouldn't they still like the kinsey questioning.
Speaker 1:They were just kind of like the first time. They're like checking a box, they're just like oh, you are related.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, great.
Speaker 1:Well, good luck great great just gotta fill out that box yeah, oh my, it is wild this is a funny question yeah, yeah. And then you have to put your parents info on there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and like where they were born, right. Yeah, I think I guessed for or we, I think, for Sarah's parents. We might've guessed maybe one Cause. I think they wanted more specific Cause. It's not just state, right, or?
Speaker 1:is it just their address.
Speaker 2:They need the full address, yeah.
Speaker 1:Which, yeah, I. Which, yeah, I mean I don't think they like verify it, but no, I think they're just kind of going through the motion.
Speaker 2:I don't really care. Yeah, another marriage.
Speaker 1:Great, yeah, yeah it was. It's a wild exciting but yeah, oh, we're so relieved, we got it and it's like we're really doing it, we're getting married. Are you gonna have?
Speaker 2:a katuba.
Speaker 1:Yes, we have a katuba. It's in that box over there by the love it washing machine. Um yeah, we're so excited that's great yeah, my friend leah's gonna sign um shout out to leah. And josh's friend michael is gonna sign shout out box. Yeah, gotta have box on the pod yeah, josh calls in box because of a video game metal gear solid.
Speaker 3:You ever played. You ever played Metal Gear Solid, john, I did.
Speaker 2:I think we talked about this. I found it extremely frustrating.
Speaker 3:Extremely frustrating because you keep getting caught the whole game. You just have to sneak. You have to be really slow.
Speaker 2:I feel like I had a low threshold for video games when they, like some people, really appreciate the challenge. I had a low threshold for that. I kind of wanted the game to like really move me along yeah. With a lot of lives and a lot of yeah. So that game did not speak to me. You ever hide in the box.
Speaker 1:New nickname incoming.
Speaker 2:Maybe I don't know, I don't remember that there's only one box, but Probably didn't even get.
Speaker 3:Is that part of it I love, John, but box is box.
Speaker 2:Box.
Speaker 3:Box. Anyway, it's not. There's not much more to it than that. We were playing the game Thought it was funny to hide in the cardboard box, so I just started calling him that.
Speaker 2:That's how nicknames happen, though, Exactly yeah organically.
Speaker 3:It's stuck Right yeah.
Speaker 2:Like had my bread story happened with a friend earlier in life like somebody probably would have started calling me like loaf.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know like.
Speaker 2:Or that's how these things work.
Speaker 1:Hey loaf, yeah, I can't get over the bread thing. I'm glad I just mansplained how nicknames work.
Speaker 2:Mansplained how nicknames work. I didn't even flag it, kelly, let me tell you how a nickname works, I wonder.
Speaker 1:I mean, now I'm compelled to go to Armourianas and just go back there and be like y'all have a bread slicer back here, and they'll probably be like yeah, oh well, they had to have worked it out by now.
Speaker 2:What do you want?
Speaker 1:sliced, I'll be like nothing, just for my records. Afterwards there, so afterwards there was a part of me that's not a very strong part of me, that kind of wanted to be like is the bread cheaper Without the slice. Yeah, I mean, there was an argument to be made.
Speaker 2:Because that's like one extra step yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, it's funny, even though it's not a person. But it's like one extra step. You know, lost Larson, there's a really nice bakery. Lost larson, there's a really nice bakery. Um, for those of you who are not in chicago, there's a swedish I believe it's swedish bakery. That's like a beyond amazing. It's so amazing they kind of turn their nose at every customer. Yeah, it's in andersonville, yes, and the.
Speaker 1:Oh my god, as you know, I'm sure know, the food is delicious they have a croissant, cinnamon roll and it's like fermented, so it's like both really good and kind of trendy and cool and whatever, but they have really good sourdough I love sourdough and they're also like a little snooty in there.
Speaker 1:So I got the country sourdough they are so good. I ordered it and I was like I had gotten a sourdough at another place I think I got it at the place that they get the bear chocolate cake at and they were like you want to slice? And I was like hell, yeah. So they sliced it and so I I like walked in with my dick swinging to las lars and it was like will you guys slice it? And the woman, the look she gave me, was like like I asked her if, like, she put ketchup on my filet, mignon at like Chicago.
Speaker 2:Cut, I would never slice it.
Speaker 1:She was just like no, and I was like got it, Got it Like whoa.
Speaker 2:So now I know, but why would that be the reaction?
Speaker 1:I guess it's because, like I think, there's like a beautiful, like you slice your own slices, you slice your own bread and it's more fresh if you slice it. I think so. The moment you want to piece, you keep it as whole as you can. Yeah, and maybe like-.
Speaker 2:I mean, I hear that you just don't have to be snooty about it. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:And I know the place. The bear place was so cool about it, josh, do you remember the name of that name of that? Oh, the loaf lounge. Oh, I just thought of it. That's a great name, isn't that great? They're breakfast sandwiches. You got to take your boys over there because you can order it, to go and just pick it up, because it does have a long wait, the break. Do you remember the breakfast sandwich? It was so delicious from loaf lounge.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm trying to remember. They forgot our order, so we were there for a good two hours. Which place was this?
Speaker 2:which I remember them, forgetting the order we forgot our order while we were on the way. Lower Wacker Drive.
Speaker 3:This was probably good. We've had a lot of good breakfast sandwiches.
Speaker 1:God, this might be the perfect segue into Distress Tolerance, because I remember I was so excited for that sandwich. And then, finally, we went up and asked and we don't have that order, and like the color drained from my face. I was so excited for that sandwich. And then, finally, we went up and asked and we don't have that order, and like the color drained from my face, like I was not able to hold it together.
Speaker 2:Well, I think you make a good point in the sense of transitioning, because, though in that moment I didn't feel like burr distress, it did kind of throw me for a loop.
Speaker 1:Like when.
Speaker 2:I was like just in my muscle memory of, like in the grocery store, I gotta get this. I got my list, bum, bum, you know, all of the just like normal things yeah, and it kind of just threw me out of rhythm to be like wait, this isn't slimy right, especially.
Speaker 1:It's like your kids like it. They're particularly about their bread.
Speaker 2:You're like okay, go here, I get this they're gonna have have distress, then if they have some other bread.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Wow, somehow it comes around to our topic.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think that is a real trigger for distress tolerance for me in general, like something unexpected, especially like if you have a comforting routine and it's unavailable or some part of it's unavailable trigger right there. Right, I mean yeah, like yeah right, I know.
Speaker 2:And well, how much do we want to get into theory about dbt?
Speaker 1:yeah, we can get into theory yeah I mean.
Speaker 2:So we talk a lot about the wise mind, which is certainly a dbt concept, and so when we say dbt, we're always talking about dialectical behavior, therapy, right, yes, um, and so the main dialectic that we think about within dbt is between acceptance and change. Right and a dialectic being two things that are opposed or opposites.
Speaker 2:Right can both have truth I think we talked about earlier in the episodes, like using and statements and things like that. And so, with acceptance, there's two kind of like modules that teach you skills of how to be able to accept and be more present and things like that. And so there's mindfulness and distress tolerance.
Speaker 1:Yes, exactly which is what?
Speaker 2:we're going to talk about. And then, in the change parts of that dialectic, there's emotion regulation and then there's interpersonal effectiveness. But we really want to focus today on the acceptance of distress in our lives. It's going to be there. Acceptance doesn't mean we like it.
Speaker 1:Right, don't have to agree with it. Yeah, don't have to condone it. It's more like allowing it to be the reality. And I don't have to condone it. It's more like allowing it to be the reality and I don't know.
Speaker 2:I remember in a lot of the training from DBT that I remember one clinician saying well, yeah, like for acceptance. Right, there's mindfulness, because when you tap into the present moment, what do we typically find? We find distress, and that's why distress, tolerance and mindfulness are like right there. Because typically, when we find distress, what do we do? We like eject, yeah, out of the present moment. We don't want to be present, yeah yeah so how would you define distress tolerance, since that was a very broad overview, but what would you?
Speaker 1:say, yeah, I'm trying to think like when I think about it in my, in my own life and in my practice. Now, you, you know, of course it's all really grounded in DBT. That's its like core. I was thinking this the other day because now I use a lot of different techniques in my work now, but DBT is like my sister.
Speaker 1:I mean it's, it's really pretty core to what I do and and I do always go back to it over and over and really like I do, like to what I do and I do always go back to it over and over and really like I do like between DBT and ACT, internal family systems and then the EMDR, those are my, my main areas. So when I kind of amalgamate those and think about distress, tolerance and like, probably like in psychodynamic work you'd call it affect tolerance, meaning like different affect states, feeling states, learning how to like, make space in the body for them, um, like in in internal family systems work, the premise would be that the self or the wise mind has an innate capacity for all distress and the way to tolerate distress is to get to that part of you.
Speaker 1:So it's like what's in the way of that part that already has this capacity? So yeah, it's like locate kind of the parts of you that are not tolerating the distress, or like almost like the parts of you that are sorry piece of my hair.
Speaker 2:What's going on. Kelly's moving her hair out of the way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's a loose, a loose strand um, it would be, yeah, like locating the parts of you that are pretty willful about, like the moment itself and the distress in it, and helping them step back a little bit and not rage against the distress and that and willfulness comes up a lot in dbt at like how we suffer right is really willfulness right, it's like resisting the present moment as it is.
Speaker 1:That's suffering, there's pain. The pain turns to suffering when there's that non-acceptance, that right willfulness. So yeah, like it's grounded for me a lot in dbt and then it's almost like like you take dbt or even take emdr and work on the parts with it a lot of times that's how they all come together, the different.
Speaker 1:I'm getting very technical with my work, but yeah, I think of it generally like everyone has this wise mind within and it's like just how far from it are you and you know. There are situations where it's like whether this is like clients of mine or people in my life, family, whatever, you know, people are like regularly really far from it. You know, have like very limited access to that innate capacity. So, yeah, there's a lot of work there.
Speaker 2:I always think it's fascinating that when you take a step back of what we do, just as therapists, people come to us typically, typically to not have distress in their life. If we're using distress as like a very overarching term, and then our job is to be like, to a certain extent, oh no, we're using distress as like a very overarching term, yeah, and then our job is to be like, to a certain extent, oh no, we're gonna be like sitting in this a lot yeah, you know, and it's like very counterintuitive to maybe what people initially.
Speaker 2:It's like that idea of just like those escape or control or whatever. It is like I. I'm in so much distress. I need you to help me to not be in it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And there's a level of it where we're like we actually need to learn to be in it just in different ways and tolerate it we. I don't like that. You're in distress either.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And if we can learn how to tolerate it in different ways, then we can learn about new behaviors. Maybe that we could limit or increase, or you know, however you want to view it.
Speaker 1:But I just always think that's such an interesting.
Speaker 2:I don't think about it all the time. It's not always like on the surface, but it's like people come to us in so much distress and wanting to get rid of it, and part of our job is to be like, oh, like. Expose them to it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, no, totally, I think you're right. It's like how do you or let's say, you have this goal of I want to be happy or I want to not feel anxious anymore, which essentially you're saying like I don't want to have one of the feeling states, do you?
Speaker 3:know what some acts.
Speaker 2:People will say that what that goal is, what those are dead people's goals.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And it's like kind of a jarring thing. I don't think we would say that to people like if we didn't have very good. Sounds like a dpt thing too, yeah like, but there's a little bit of irreverence where it's like, yeah, I don't want to be anxious anymore, and it's like, well, that's not a human goal.
Speaker 1:A human goal is you're gonna have anxiety right sorry to cut you off, no, no, but I like that because I think it's you know, asking not to have a feeling state. Like Brene Brown would say you can't selectively numb feelings.
Speaker 1:Like you numb one, you numb them all, you know. Let's say someone says they want, you know, not to feel anxious. I think in ACT you might say okay, like if you didn't feel anxious, what would you do that you're not doing now? What would your life look like? What would that free you to do? Because getting to like, how do you act in line?
Speaker 1:act with what's valued to you. And I think in ifs you know that's a part that's gonna say something like I don't want to feel anxious, because the self would never say that. So you can tell, right there you're with a part and you do a little more like tell me why you don't want to be anxious and maybe tell me like by what this part that's saying you can't be anxious is giving you. There's some real need it's filling that you have to honor first. And then sometimes you thought, challenge it some, like you do CBT with it, sometimes you do DBT with it, sometimes you do EMDR with it. You know, help it realize. Like, oh, anxiety was traumatic for you once. Well, maybe we can reprocess that trauma and it'll feel less traumatic, you know. But yeah, it's like let's learn the story of anxiety to you, how you're relating to it now.
Speaker 1:I'm going to offer you something else and if you're interested, go for it. If you're not, no worries. And in DBT, yeah, it's like it's a lot of psychoed at the beginning you know it is yeah, and we have to.
Speaker 2:I think foundational piece to distress tolerance is radical acceptance which we've talked about before is that we have to accept at a base level that distress is going to be a part of our life.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And and, as uncomfortable as that is, and again, we never want to lean into acceptance, meaning we condone it or we like it or we're okay with it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And we are going to resist distress. In a lot of ways. It is a level of my resistance probably isn't the most effective thing for me. However, I'm resisting my distress. So can I accept that it's going to be a part of my life and how can I learn to be with it, just in different ways?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then from that psycho ad kind of maybe more concrete skills, like a tip or something like that yeah which is like temperature change, like an extreme temperature change for somebody to kind of like shock the body or get them out of their head, or intense exercise would be the eye right and then yeah pace, breathing, or paired muscle with paired muscle relaxation?
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, the like really intense grounding skills the tip tip skills in DBT. Yeah yeah, distress tolerance Sometimes it does. If you're really flooded with feeling, you reach for something to just ground you.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And that's a temporary thing, mm-hmm, yeah, yeah, and that's interesting too, like what does one do when they're really flooded? Because I'm even thinking about myself like I felt really flooded outside a lower rack, or like definitely and I kind of just started to freak out yeah and a little bit yell at josh like what are we gonna do? You know, this is not okay. We have to figure it out, you know, and really push and push against the situation. And I did that for a while, right, josh probably like four minutes yeah, I definitely we were there for 30
Speaker 2:minutes so yeah, but it was yeah well, yeah, when you're in it, I'm sure it feels like a half hour when the sidewalk ends.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I kind of, I had to like hear myself and like actually I did observe when I was down there. I was like what is this doing? Like you lamenting this and panicking about it. You're still down here, it's not gonna change anything so I turned.
Speaker 1:I think I turned to you and said, like it's gonna be okay yeah, I noticed that yeah that, that, that switch, yeah, where you were tolerating the distress right, and it made it more tolerable for me yeah, and that was maybe me reaching into almost something, and that's where my wise mind takes me, because I think I got to wise mind. My wise mind often takes me to like a sense of trust or faith which is a little bit spiritual for me. Um, and the self and ifs can be a somewhat like spiritual kind of source energy type of place where you really just trust, like I'm not gonna live here for the rest of my life and lower whacker like I'm gonna going to get out of here.
Speaker 1:It's going to be okay. It's gonna be okay.
Speaker 2:Um, but that's so hard to. I'm glad you switched, but that's so hard in those moments for anybody to, when we're so heightened to be able to almost, I guess, rise above that a little bit and like observe the situation from like a larger perspective Cause we're so in it, so that was almost like observer self. If we want to think about it like that, like okay, this is right now. The content what's going on is like really distressing and like my life is bigger than this like yeah, yeah you know, but that's so hard to do.
Speaker 2:Oh man, I would have been in a lot of distress in that situation.
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah, it was, it was a lot and yeah, it's like it's funny, like I almost think and maybe this is wedding related it's I've been getting heightened a bit more and, yeah, feeling just like it's a little harder to feel connected to that wise mind more continuously, like just really getting worked up about little things.
Speaker 2:I think it makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like we were talking pre-show things. I think it makes sense. Yeah, like we were talking pre-show. Like I remember the month before getting married and just everything the base level was like of anxiety or distress was already ratcheted up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, because it's like we have full-time jobs, we do a lot, and then it's like to add this many tasks and also just like the pressure that you're supposed it's supposed to be, like such an epic day and also the pressure that you're supposed to like look your best. It's just like, oh, my god, this is a lot of pressure that I, you know. I just returned the dress I'm gonna wear for the welcome party, like because I'm like, is this my once in my life type dress? Like no, but it's like, oh, what is ever going to be that?
Speaker 2:I remember yeah, he didn't use these terms on my wedding day necessarily, but I think what he was getting at my uncle um was who I'm very close to. He was. I think you could tell at one moment the day of that maybe I was getting like nervous or just like more like heightened with distress. And I just remember him coming up to me and he was like listen, at any point in your wedding, if you want me to just like pull a digger and fall, or like spill a drink on myself, to just like like he was like give me the wink.
Speaker 2:He was like yeah, exactly. And that just made me feel so much better for some reason, like it was like a comforting thing where he was like, if I just need to like do something, to like, yeah, draw people's attention away from you for like a few minutes. Cause it's just too much. It was just, it was a really sweet thing to like say, and obviously I was giving off some sort of energy that I wasn't maybe realizing or tuning into, because I was so like internal and hyper focused. But yeah weddings are.
Speaker 2:They're great in so many ways and wonderful they're also stressful yeah, for sure totally yeah.
Speaker 1:What about for you?
Speaker 2:I mean, I think, distress tolerance. I feel like I have to use it and I know I talk about my kids a lot, but I think you know, parenting there's just a lot of distress and I think I've talked about this before. But seeing my kids in distress heightens mine. Oh God, and that is like something where you know I've excuse me, I've needed to work on and Sarah's been great in reflecting that whole idea of, like you know, that plane idea right, which comes from.
Speaker 2:Dr Becky I always forget her last name, but she's a psychologist and like if the plane, if there's all this turbulence on the plane, you don't want the pilot to come back and be like oh my God, what's like you need? Like a calm presence you know, and that's so hard for me when my kids are upset about something or they're like you know, like I, kind of match their energy and that's. That's 99% of the time never helpful.
Speaker 2:It's like I have to be able to tolerate, not only to just be more effective in those situations, but also to model for them, you know, and so I think that being able to breathe, take a step back, like allow myself to maybe like leave the room Okay, I'll come back, Like you know, or just sit with them you know, like in their distress and just kind of like be like a container.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. You know what that makes me think. I'm curious what you think about this, cause you are a parent, in parenting and in in any almost in really almost any distress tolerance situation, like there's the tolerance where you're kind of just white, knuckling it right, like especially maybe if you want to look, if you want to appear calm, let's say you're like in a meeting or you're sure whatever.
Speaker 1:I've definitely done this um. And then there's the like how do I cultivate that real space in my body for what I feel, that's like warm and compassionate, so that it's not emanating off of me and like infusing into my children, and it's? The second is obviously ideal, but it's hard.
Speaker 2:It's really hard. I always try to. If I'm not able to tolerate it, or even to tolerate it more effectively, I always try to like come back to my kids afterwards when everybody's calm yeah, and try to give them a little bit of a window into, like, my internal experience.
Speaker 2:Yeah so, even if I was feeling internally like really distressed, but I wasn't showing it and I was a calm presence, I do come back and kind of say, hey, like I was really scared for you too in that moment, or like I was really like for you too in that moment or like yeah, I was really like that.
Speaker 2:That really sounded like frustrating or disappointing, because I I also want them to feel validated in the sense of like empathy with that too, you know and then on the flip side, when I'm not able to tolerate it like yeah daddy lost his patience, daddy's loser pit, you know like yeah I have a hard time too, like and repackaging it in a way of like.
Speaker 2:Maybe it looked like one thing, like anger or frustration, and actually you know what? I was actually really scared too like in that moment. So also trying to like peel away a little bit of like. This isn't like an anger response or a lashing out response or just kind of a paralysis it's you know it's so hard, though it's so hard. When my kids are in pain, it's like that's always.
Speaker 1:I can't imagine, you know, I was thinking cause I I I don't even have kids. I have nieces who I am truly obsessed with and when they're upset I do find it very, very difficult to tolerate. I think I've mentioned that before on the pod and you know what's funny, that feeling, that very specific, right my kid's in real pain, or like this child that I feel so much love for is in real pain, Like that gut punch oh yeah it almost feels like my ears are ringing like it is the most helpless.
Speaker 2:I don't think I've ever felt more helpless. Yeah, in those moments. Yeah, in my life totally well.
Speaker 1:It's funny because I feel like every once in a while I'll come across a client that will elicit that response in me. I I'm I've been lately trying to be curious about it, like because you know we're therapists, like we come across clients and just people who learn we're therapists and open up in pain, you know, in real pain, and it's all valid, and but there are certain people where it's like I hear their pain and see them emote and like be in distress, and I like want to just take it away yeah I feel it and I'm like I wonder if they evoke something like remind me of pain I've had, or yeah, that's real.
Speaker 1:Yeah, where I'm like I, I almost can't deal with this. Like I, I feel so deeply in pain, because you're in pain, that it's hard to like even sit here, and then there's other clients where I can easily do it.
Speaker 2:There have been people I've worked with in the past who, after meeting with them, like the side of my cheek will hurt because I will have been biting it, so I don't cry.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yes, totally.
Speaker 2:Because I'm like I need to be doing something. It's so. I don't even know how to describe that feeling either, but like it's very much like, oh my God, like I can't contain, like their distress is so palpable for yeah, it hits so different yeah yeah, because, yeah, it's like the idea that you want to give yourself and them, is that like we can grow larger than this pain?
Speaker 1:right, so that when you and I think all therapy. That's the aim yeah you know, can, can we not solve our problems? Grow larger than them and and feel sturdy within, self-worthy enough to handle what comes. But yeah, there's some people. I just want to like hug them and like erase their past and like say you are, you are, you are, you are good enough, like totally and nothing's wrong.
Speaker 2:And I know. Another time when it's hard for me to tolerate my distress is when, like, I have the plan laid out and it starts to just not go the way that I thought it was gonna go. And there's I feel like there's so many examples of people that are just that I've interacted with and that I'm around even currently, that are just so much more flexible sometimes and it's like I have when, sometimes, when I have a day in my mind kind of like planned out yeah and it's like not going that way or something just like shoots it into a different direction.
Speaker 2:It's like that it's hard for me to tolerate. Yeah, I kind of want to like lash out in those moments for some, reason it's anger, the feeling that I get. I kind of want to be like what yeah?
Speaker 1:Like this is not.
Speaker 2:No, this is not going to go this way.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like I had this planned out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that came up for me in a performance review that I lacked that ability, like they called it, agility.
Speaker 1:Oh, agility Okay, and I was like I had committed to, like in performance reviews, to if something resonated like if I knew it was a struggle that I have and I've owned it and I then I would say yeah, I would say exactly that. I would say you know, this is on my radar. I I want to work on this, it's important to me and it is something I struggle with. But that one I was like this one was not on my radar.
Speaker 1:I was like can you explain? And they were like you know, when a change happens, you know, let's say, there's going to be extra clients coming from another program or whatever, something like that. You can struggle sometimes to just roll with that.
Speaker 2:It was like roll with that Adapt Exactly. And I was Be agile and adapt.
Speaker 1:Yeah, when they named that, I was like you know, know, I sort of am even thinking of a specific example of my struggle with that and then I said I was like I can adapt well, if I'm the one making the change. Oh yeah, that's if I'm in control of the change, if I'm in control absolutely.
Speaker 2:But it's like if someone's foisting it on me I can be a little like whoa back up that's such a funny example in the professional space because I go very emotion mind when I have plans to this doesn't happen as much because I'm just maybe not as the social engagements just don't happen as much um with like my friends and other adults just because of our lives and things like that where?
Speaker 2:we're at. But I would completely go off the deep end if it was like, okay, we're gonna hang out, and then I would arrive someplace and the person would be like oh yeah and I invited this person, and this person too, to hang out with us without asking me, and I would be like such an interesting I would be like or I would be like waiting at the bar or for dinner, and then you'd be like oh yeah, well, I ran into so-and-so, I just brought him along and that to me, I don't know what it is about.
Speaker 2:That I mean, I'm sure there's a lot of things I know about it, but that to me is like, really, that makes me angry yeah, it really is so if you locate the feeling it's anger, probably yeah, and probably just like is my time with you not? Valuable yeah, like this is like I am spending time with you. This is the reason we made these plans.
Speaker 1:Right and.
Speaker 2:I have a friend who's notorious for just kind of like oh, yeah, like this person, I went to his house one time. Yeah, like this person, I. I went to his house one time and, um, he like let he. I arrived at his house he wasn't home yet. He was like oh, like, just punch in the code for my garage, blah, blah, blah. Here's the key, you can let yourself in. I let myself in and then I hear like the front door almost like a knock, and I was like, oh, that's weird. I wonder why, like he maybe he's got like groceries or something like you can't this is another story that sounds like it's gonna turn like horror.
Speaker 2:No, I just I opened the door and it's some random person who was just like oh yeah, like matt invited me over and and this and that he invited, he said you were coming so let's hang out, and I was.
Speaker 1:I don't know this person oh, now, that is a cardinal sin and I was like what it's like, come on that someone would invite someone, yeah that isn't in the group.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was like a person that I had never met before and then, and so then we were both sitting there waiting for him.
Speaker 1:Oh, and then you're sitting there, yeah, so anyway, I it just I mean that, yeah, someone's got to pull that friend aside but I feel like there are some people that are just like the more the merrier.
Speaker 2:Like, let's just all have a great time together and I feel like when I cultivate plans with someone or a group of people and it's been established, it's almost like closed group now, or it's closed off Tickets are not being sold anymore, this event has been sold off or it's like ask closed off, like tickets are not being sold anymore.
Speaker 1:This event has been sold or it's like ask my fucking permission something yeah, anything, so that was very well, you know what's funny talk about, not agile or adaptable or flexible. There's many times this happens to me and I don't mind. But I will say this sometimes I do mind, especially if it's someone I don't know, because then it's like you've turned this.
Speaker 1:The nature of this hangout is not what I agreed to yeah mine was like, don't have to be on with my close friend to like I'm like entertaining someone, yeah, which maybe is my own issue with people pleasing but I never want to stop talking about the psyche of the person who does that, because it's so far from me. It's like what the hell yeah, like why did you think this was okay, or?
Speaker 2:even just the I, what I feel would be the common courtesy of just checking in with the other person and being like hey, I ran into so and so I know that we had plans yeah would you mind if they came for drinks or came to dinner or hung out with us for a little while, just to even that common courtesy A hundred percent.
Speaker 2:I just don't think for some people. I don't know if that one bothers them, if that happens to them or even is on the radar, but that is something that brings up a lot of distress.
Speaker 1:Anyway, yeah, I think it's like if, oh God, and they bring them, and then you're sitting there awkwardly waiting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was beyond. I was just kind of like what I can feel secondary.
Speaker 1:This is like projective identification. I can hear like rage bubbles.
Speaker 3:I'm like you two hang out.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:What would you if a client told you that happened to them? Yeah or like let's say, the client told you like oh, my friend invited me for drinks and I hadn't seen them in forever and I was so excited or this happens to people on dates or some like you know, because dating is wild, like like second date, the guy's like oh, my friends are here you know, whatever, or I'm like taking you to the bar where my friends are hanging out yeah or maybe a woman might do that?
Speaker 1:I probably did that to people so this is for you yeah, probably um but like if a client said like I was so upset, like I felt so angry, like they didn't tell me, how might you approach that and and you may not go the distress tolerance like angle first yeah, I mean, I think I would want more information in terms of like what on, how did it unfold, right? Like how did?
Speaker 2:you. Let's talk about how you did tolerate your distress. So maybe just also like were there any takeaways of?
Speaker 1:yeah, how you were.
Speaker 2:You were able to sit in that oh, I love that I maybe would want them to reflect and recognize. Maybe they tolerated it more than they thought.
Speaker 1:Yeah, which maybe they didn't, or like help them see those internal resources they already have.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like maybe like see, well, actually, like I was gritting my teeth the whole time and I was polite, and this, and that I did leave early, which now I regret. Okay, well, at the same time, right, you gritted your teeth, you were polite, so I, I think, I would want to try to get them to look at it, maybe objectively and kind of see, maybe I did tolerate it a little bit more you know totally. And I thought but then also, yeah, like well, yeah.
Speaker 1:I think I would want to do a little bit more of the digging of like why is that? Yeah, why, what upsets you?
Speaker 2:about it. Did that feel really out of control?
Speaker 1:Did it feel? Yes, like. What's the underlying theme?
Speaker 2:Yeah, like did it feel, or you know in my, if that were me probably things of, am I not important?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Is my time not important?
Speaker 1:Is it.
Speaker 2:You know, or maybe even like the expectations. Maybe I really wanted to like talk about something with this friend that now that this third party is there, I don't feel comfortable. So you know, like were there expectations that aren't being met? So I think I would want to really like kind of dig in and see, like some of those types of things. What really was going on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it's funny because, like, of course, I think that's great there. Every once in a while someone will tell me a story where it's like the thing that happened is like so egregious. I do sometimes first make a little space, maybe not in that case, but in some cases where I'm like let's just objectively say that was like total bullshit. Oh, I agree, oh yeah 100%.
Speaker 2:Like if somebody told me that I would be like.
Speaker 1:I've had that happen to me before and it feels terrible.
Speaker 3:Like nightmare. It's absolutely. Yeah, I mean, we're human too, for sure, for sure, definitely.
Speaker 2:I think, we have to bring those human moments. Yeah, and I've done that. I have a very soft spot when in the past I've worked with people who are just getting into the difficulties of having a newborn and parenting and my kids did not sleep well and I was so sleep deprived and and just barely functioning, and so I have a very soft spot when everything becomes distress tolerance for them because their tank is so depleted.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so with those people I very much in the past have have gone the route of disclosure and and kind of say, oh, I think that makes sense yeah absolutely, absolutely like can we?
Speaker 1:just say like this you are on the struggle bus right now and I've been there like well, and how do you coach someone into stress tolerance when they're not meeting a basic need? That's not able to meet a basic, it's so hard. It's like, yeah, you're not getting sleep. It's like when we don't get sleep right, we're basically all psychotic yeah, not to get too far ahead.
Speaker 2:But then that's when we're thinking of the other side of that acceptance and change we're thinking about emotion regulation where we're thinking about emotion regulation skills are setting up a foundation, and a lot of those skills are about our self-care right yeah like how are we taking care of our sleep, how are we nourishing ourselves and all of those things?
Speaker 1:So yeah, yeah, that ground foundation for like emotional.
Speaker 2:Because if we're not doing that, our distress is going to shoot through the roof very quickly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Totally, totally, and I feel that if I haven't slept well, yeah, I don't really trigger me what do when?
Speaker 2:when people come and talk to us and they have that resistance to being like, well, I don't want to feel this distress you're telling me.
Speaker 1:I have to feel my feelings even more yeah yeah, yeah, it's psychoeducation, and then it's, and then it's what like well then I'll, I will dig into even that right the resistance itself, sort of like if you think of it like a part, then you talk to the part and it's like so tell me, like if you were to feel this feeling you'd want to feel. Let's say it's anxiety, or guilt even, but guilt shows up a little different. Let's say it's anxiety, I don't want to feel anxious, I just don't want to feel it. I want you to help me reduce that feeling, kind of going for okay.
Speaker 1:So tell me, like if you it's basically like if this part of you that's saying stop feeling the anxiety wasn't there, what would happen to you if you felt anxious? What next that you're afraid of what? What's the danger there? And often, like they can think of okay, if I'm anxious, then I'll, I won't be able to be present, you know, or things like that. And honoring, you know, the real like barrier that it's caused, because that's the hard thing. It's like God. We have to like rain on people's parades a lot of times in therapy.
Speaker 2:You know like we're like a fun sponge.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like I'm not gonna. Sometimes I want to give someone where it's like, yeah, this is going to be no problem, couple sessions done, right. It's really like, especially like the type of therapy we do. It's a long game. It's like connecting to your wise mind is like deep self-understanding and when you get there you don't need to solve your problems. You don't need to create a completely unanxious environment, you just tune into what's already there. But if it's buried and buried, and buried on all of this protection, you know whether that's negative self-talk or cutting. You know it's something standing over that authentic part of you that can handle all these things. It's a tough thing.
Speaker 2:It is, I think, the way we talk about it like you and I talk about it it's sometimes I feel like we talk about it in a way that makes it feel like we've been working with these, these quote unquote, like we're putting it in quotes like patients, for a while. Right, and we've seen them for a while. Yeah, do you ever just give people like homework, to be like here's a, here's a thing that you could do, not a small thing, but like to just start practicing tolerating?
Speaker 2:your distress a little bit more, like if somebody were listening to this and they were like how could I maybe start, instead of doing all the digging and all the deep work, like how could I even start even just trying to tolerate my distress?
Speaker 2:more what would be like a homework thing, yeah because, sometimes I've heard people like say well, do something you're not good at yeah like try to do like a hobby yeah or pick something up new that you know you're not going to be good at it right away and try to maybe just notice what comes up for you, try to engage with it, not to get completely frustrated where you're throwing shit against the wall but, just that exposure to that distress.
Speaker 1:I don't know, did you? No, I think I like that. I hadn't thought of it. I like that challenging them to do something. I hadn't thought of it. Like, I like that challenging them to do something. What I usually do is have someone because they'll kind of want right away to be like I want to, to do it, to tolerate distress yeah, they want to.
Speaker 1:Well, they want to go big, yeah, which I appreciate that when people come to us and want to go big yeah, but I'll usually say you know you may not like this, but what I want you to do is, let's say they're struggling with anger. When you get angry this week, just notice it. So try for a moment, if you get the chance, to turn that attention inward and mark it in your mind like I'm feeling angry. Notice. So take it from like the anger is infusing my outward view to like you're turning toward the anger. There's separation there, there's mindfulness there. To like you're turning toward the anger. There's separation there, there's mindfulness there, and that to me, that has a profound effect.
Speaker 1:If people can do it now the percentage of people that do that, especially the first time I suggested, is like nearly zero.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:But I think, like noticing, starting to notice the internal, like, like when I'm on the side of whacker drive, I'm like, I'm suffering, I'm suffering. I'm suffering Like anger is just like fusing through, it's like the glasses I'm wearing to the world. There has to be a moment where I slow down and I'm realizing, like, oh, take my eyes from out here to inside, you're really angry and you're pushing, pushing, pushing against that anger. Can you slow down, notice the feeling, notice your reality without judgment, and just be here, set down everything and be in this space and it sounds so simple, but it does help. And just knowing what you're doing and that's what really, to me, speaks to the idea that there's a wise mind in there.
Speaker 1:Because, the second you notice what you're doing. You tend to have intuition as to what will help and you don't even need to be coached on it that much. It's more getting coached to just get to the wise mind, that's it, Because it already knows it already. It's like when you really hear, you're like, oh, I'm on the side of the road, bitching about being on the side of the road. Okay, I know that's not helpful by just saying it out loud. There's a part of me that knows me right and knows this isn't the way. So yeah, I think that's often what I'll do is like notice without judgment.
Speaker 2:So more mindfulness practice, more self-validation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and even I won't even sometimes go as far as self-validation. Or well, it is validation because you're noticing. But I will try not to even make it too positive.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I'll try to keep it neutral at first, especially if the person tends to be really negative about their anxiety or their anger or whatever Try to like. Let's just see if we can be neutral first, but I like the challenge thing. Maybe I'll try that Just for homework. Yeah, maybe for somebody like yeah certainly we.
Speaker 2:You know we're not trying to like flood people, but I'm just thinking of, like the casual listener who is yeah maybe wanting to increase just their ability to maybe tolerate any intense or you know a level of intensity a little bit more. Maybe I don't know. I'm looking at your kitchen right now, I don't know like making a recipe, and maybe you don't have all the ingredients or something, you don't have one spice or something. It's kind of like tolerating that a little bit Totally.
Speaker 1:Yeah, or it's like step through fear somewhere.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. Like, is there something in your, if you look at your calendar for the day, is there something that gives you a little squeeze of anxiety? Can you go toward it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, lean in a little bit more. Yeah, Can you go toward it? Yeah?
Speaker 1:lean in a little bit more to that and notice the feelings that come, and I will have people picture making space in their body for the feeling.
Speaker 2:And expanding.
Speaker 1:And I'll say, even if it's painful, even if it's excruciating, see if you can make that space and usually if you say that caveat, people are like, okay, and you know what? I've been doing a lot actually who have physical pain, because I have a few clients it's not like I specialize in chronic pain or anything but we all have pain I mean, I see a lot of people like you know 30s most of my clients are probably like 30s and yeah, we're getting, we're getting to that place where the body's breaking down.
Speaker 1:So I will do a lot of times that rain meditation where I'll just slowly have them like tune into their breath, get quiet, recognize, allow, investigate, nourish.
Speaker 2:I cannot tell you Tara Brock, tara Brock, yes, this is a Tara Brock self-compassion practice, the reign of self-compassion.
Speaker 1:You can find her stuff all over the internet. She's amazing, but the amount of people that are like I have not felt that calm in months or they're like my pain feels different. It's incredible that meditation and that's like a drawn-out version of what we're doing all the time.
Speaker 1:Recognize and allow, listen in to the pain or the part and give it what it's needing, some version of what it's needing, an active gesture of like warmth, care. I feel like even people that like don't buy into like meditation and stuff will find that helpful sure I do.
Speaker 2:I do feel like that's a little, though it's a a meditation, it feels a little active.
Speaker 3:It feels more active.
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally Like you're doing something active with it, especially with the questioning or the gentle kind of nature of like what is this? And then how can I meet that? Is it nurture or nourish? I forget.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, you're right it's nurture. Well, actually, I think it can be both.
Speaker 3:It can be both.
Speaker 2:It can be both, but they switched it to nurture.
Speaker 3:I think Is that what it is? Okay?
Speaker 1:They didn't nourish, they didn't like, because it had like an end point suggested. Oh, got it Okay and I think nurture is just more like a general act of like care Right.
Speaker 2:So the act it feels like for a lot of people they want to do quote, unquote something yeah like you can actually like see yourself.
Speaker 1:I don't just want to sit.
Speaker 2:You know, I feel like that can be a resistance to mindfulness or distress tolerance. Is that idea, like you mentioned earlier, white knuckling Totally.
Speaker 1:I don't want to white knuckle this. Yeah, or I'm doing it wrong.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm doing it wrong. Yeah, or I just sit in it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sometimes even the presence of distress. Someone can can create a narrative around that that like there must be something wrong about me or something that I'm doing wrong or that they have to do something with it yeah, yeah, because sitting some sitting with sitting is a behavior.
Speaker 2:You know, I think that everything's a behavior, right? So I think people, and it makes sense why, if you're in distress, you you feel like you gotta get rid of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Or you gotta do something it's like, but you are engaging in a behavior, right. Yeah, and I think just because you're not doing quote, unquote something doesn't mean you're not doing anything, right?
Speaker 1:Right, it's like that, seinfeld.
Speaker 2:Seinfeld. Yeah, I mean, it always comes back to that. Oh, thought of the same thing, 100 he's like what'd you do? She's like nothing yeah no, but also like oh, a show about nothing, that's something and it's like doing nothing or a nothing topic.
Speaker 1:That is something that is something exactly.
Speaker 2:So yeah, yeah jerry jerry he knew definitely has wisdom in there. Maybe he he can tolerate his distress, yeah.
Speaker 1:No wonder he does the same kind of meditation. I do that transcendental meditation.
Speaker 2:He does, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:He said it cleared up his acne. Isn't that wild.
Speaker 2:Interesting.
Speaker 1:His must have been really due to stress.
Speaker 2:Hmm.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:I don't know.
Speaker 1:I think. I mean, I don't think everyone's acne. He said that.
Speaker 2:He said it changed his whole life. Man yeah.
Speaker 1:And who's the producer? Who's so mysterious?
Speaker 3:the music producer, oh, yeah, rick Rubin, rick Rubin, yeah, rick Rubin, he does it.
Speaker 1:And his mom took him to get trained in it because he had migraines as a kid and it cured his migraines Wow. And now he credits all of his success to it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, isn't that crazy. It is Distress tolerance.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's a biggie.
Speaker 1:It's a biggie it is. It'll come up in so many of our podcasts some version of it.
Speaker 2:It's definitely foundational to a lot of the things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, like affect tolerance is well, because I really believe, and I think this is like what therapy is kind of premised on when you develop that or like tap into that, you really get to do the rest yeah you get to live a really vital, rich life when you like. Stop trying to fix your affect right, like you're following your values.
Speaker 2:You're taking your pain with you, you're not letting it limit you, because you've let go of the idea that I have to get rid of it or I have to do something with my distress before I can live a meaningful life. It's like you can live a meaningful life in distress. That's not easy, but the byproduct of that is that typically once we start doing that, then the distress goes down.
Speaker 1:Not all the time that's the secret I know. That's the secret of all types of therapy. It's like you set aside this goal of fixing your affect. You get into the deeper stuff. It tends you tend to feel Some relief, Relief, yeah, or even even trait change can happen over time yeah you really like, do grow larger, and then, when you're larger than things, like don't feel the same right yeah, but it's the dirty little secret. You can't make it the goal.
Speaker 2:But yeah, there's a meditation that there's a line that says something to the effect of like think about pain you've had or worries you've had that have that are now resolved. Right and it's like that idea of, like you didn't wait for those things to resolve themselves before you moved on with your life. Like you, you still live, you were living your life and now that now they're resolved Totally, I love that, that, that whole idea it brings up like an adaptive memory network, which is a very MDR thing.
Speaker 1:Remember where this like resolved.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like notice that. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And really notice it, like in your bones, and I feel like Josh, you do this for me all the time, where I'm freaking out about like a medical thing. Oh my God, I think I have this type of cancer. And he's like so I'm going to you, like you last week it was a different one and the week before it was a different one, and I'm like, oh yeah, no, I don't even think about that anymore yeah okay, all right.
Speaker 2:So great discussion. Now we're going to transition into our how wise is a question? Yeah, which comes from our good friend er Erica Erica. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1:Yeah, thanks, Erica.
Speaker 2:Long time listener Erica writes in and wants to know and I do have her opinion on this how wise is it to have a tablecloth? Great question.
Speaker 1:This is a great question, actually, because and you couldn't have known this we spilled oh no, we didn't spill. Like I put flowers on the tablecloth we had and they, you know, sometimes when flowers die, they like emanate all this color, yep, so it kind of ruined the tablecloth, um, which was like truly not expensive, so I got rid of it and I've been thinking about putting a new one on there because I like putting a pattern. We got a lot of white in here, but functionally I like the table without it. What do you think, josh?
Speaker 2:So wait? So your initial take is wise. How?
Speaker 1:wise, is it Well decoratively wise. Wise from a decorative perspective. Functionally.
Speaker 2:Functionally Maybe not as wise.
Speaker 3:Not as wise, Right? Well, can you explain why you feel it's functioning better now sans cloth?
Speaker 1:It's easier to clean.
Speaker 3:You think it's easier. It is easier to clean, it's easier to clean. It is easier to clean. Yeah, because can you tell for the listener who can't see this table what the material is of the table? Is it formica.
Speaker 2:Rich, mahogany A rich mahogany.
Speaker 1:I think it is like formica, a cobalt Is a lightning, cobalt Lightning.
Speaker 2:It's definitely marble.
Speaker 1:No this is like. I got this from Facebook Marketplace and it's, I think, originally from Ikea and yeah, like Formica, it's gotta be. I followed someone down to like their boiler room and they sold it to me.
Speaker 3:Yeah, on.
Speaker 1:Facebook Marketplace Crazy, oh yeah.
Speaker 3:Okay, I can't disagree with what you're saying. I'm principal. I do think and this is probably a testament to my ocd for some reason, when it has the tablecloth on it, I it. It gives me calm.
Speaker 1:I love hearing this. Cause you just sold me out, I'll go to tablecloth, yeah.
Speaker 3:Like like, if I'm going to set something on the table, as we have limited surfaces in our space, I feel so much less anxiety when there's a tablecloth.
Speaker 1:Oh, I thought you meant like the pattern.
Speaker 2:Oh, the plot thickens oh it's less fun now.
Speaker 3:No, I knew what I'm saying isn't fun, but it is honest okay and I think like let's say, for instance, our uh pressure cooker, the top of it. You know, I'm like fumbling around for some surface, to put it on when it's like hot and dripping water and there's no surfaces on the counter, I would often put it on the table when there was a cloth.
Speaker 1:But you can tuck that thing right in the side. I hate that. Oh, you do.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm always knocking it over. I'm like moving quickly. I like to set things down. You like to fling it to the other side, I like to move quickly and I like to like have a place to set down yeah wet and or hard edged objects when there's too much clutter yeah, and I think I feel less guilt doing that when there's a cloth on it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, given. Yes, you're right, the cloth is harder to clean, but somehow a dirty cloth feels homey to me. But if I were to somehow hurt the table I would feel like a criminal. You hurt the table, I hurt the table. The cloth can be replaced. So it's like I'll just get it dirty till Kelly's like Josh, you done bad, and then we get a new cloth. But if I hurt the table, it's like we gotta get a new table. Well, and that's the whole entire purpose of the tablecloth.
Speaker 1:I think that's the origin of the tablecloth. Probably OCD, well, not hurting the tablecloth. Probably ocd, well, not hurting the table. Yeah, the sentient table don't hurt it, do you so? You want to hurt the cloth well, think about like sheets on a bed what about them? Like. If you like a fitted sheet, let's say it's like. You could argue that sure it's like more comfortable but, I, think the original purpose. Yeah, it's like it's expensive to replace a mattress.
Speaker 3:Of the product Underwear. It's expensive to replace your privates.
Speaker 2:We're going off the deep end here on this one.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, no, Josh, it's not your privates, it's your pants.
Speaker 3:Oh, I think you're thinking inside out here.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 3:The purpose of underwear is to protect the pants. Wow, I'm seeing things differently now.
Speaker 1:It is kind of between two surfaces. I feel like we're having a conversation that should be on ecstasy.
Speaker 2:Incredible.
Speaker 1:Or mushrooms.
Speaker 2:I mean, this is good stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what do you think?
Speaker 2:For me, it is not wise to have a tablecloth.
Speaker 1:Okay, tell us.
Speaker 2:I don't see any purpose to a tablecloth. I feel like it's one large community napkin, so communal it's, depending on the length on the sides. When you push yourself into a table it's weird on your lap.
Speaker 1:That is such a point against it. It is weird in your lap.
Speaker 2:I don't like that feeling. I do feel like, even like if you put a tablecloth on, I mean, how thick are they? It still will seep into your table.
Speaker 1:And that is kind of a hidden truth.
Speaker 2:So I just feel like the amount of laundry I do as well having children, there's just nothing that's really striking me, as now, decoratively, have I seen some wonderful tables with a tablecloth Breath, of course. And does it look nice in a restaurant at times, of course, oh yeah, Is it wise for me to have one in my home.
Speaker 1:No. I don't find it to be a very wise decision okay, I mean I really can hear those reasons and I think you're right.
Speaker 2:It doesn't really protect the table so much and and when I say community napkin, I would probably be just as guilty as the next person of if I didn't have a napkin with me, just quickly wiping my hand on the side of it, or you know trying to get away with it. So I mean I would be as guilty as the answer.
Speaker 1:It's weird on your lap it is weird on your lap. Yeah, it is weird on your lap when you push yourself into the table, because I also like I loved the light blue striped one I had, and then every time I pushed in the bench and the chair it kind of hung on them weird. And then I was like oh, I just need to take the time to measure it and get one that's like properly the size of that table. Maybe I'll do that next time.
Speaker 2:Because I think I am going to go forth and get one. Yeah, I mean, and our friend Erica, who wrote us and there's also a cultural component to this, because erica is italian and felt as though that contributed to why, from her perspective, it was important to have a tablecloth, because that was more red sauce kind of an italian thing, cultural piece to that yeah, red tablecloth or white tablecloth.
Speaker 1:Don't they say that like classic italian places are like red tablecloth. What do they say? There's like a name. I'm not sure it's like a soprano.
Speaker 2:She was that makes sense.
Speaker 2:She was speaking of just in her own in her own yeah, and I'm not sure the color scheme, but um more of. Not only did she think it was wise for her because I think she liked it on a lot of the reasons you all said, but also there's a cultural component to it. So I also never. I don't think I grew up with a tablecloth. I wonder if that plays into it as well, thinking about the cultural components, because I don't. We did not have a tablecloth. I don't think Growing up yeah, I don't think we did.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we didn't. I mean we would have that.
Speaker 2:My mom would like roll one out for like parties I think my mom had. Is this a thing a runner? Yeah I think my mom, maybe the way our table we had a runner here.
Speaker 1:She had like a table runner, but not a full cloth yeah, my mom, that's one of those words where it's like, like as you get older and you're like registering for your wedding. And you know, like your mom will say something like, well, you like, as you get older and you're like registering for your wedding, and you're like your mom will say something like, well, you're going to get a runner, and you're a little bit like what is the purpose?
Speaker 2:Like you already got hokas, I'm fine. It's like not a big deal.
Speaker 1:Like these things, that it's like you're just supposed to know.
Speaker 2:Or I think a different generation of them worked or like things like a or um. What's interesting is my grandparents, um, they moved, they're aging, they moved and my parents were trying to, you know, like minimize some of the things that they had, and one of the things was like china, like people used to register for china and we thought about that people wouldn't even take it from my parents, like places where you could even donate it for free.
Speaker 2:They weren't even looking for money and they were like you have no idea how much we have of this from these generations of people that had china that it's like.
Speaker 1:Now people don't really want it as much anymore, if ever, and so we didn't register for it this time and because I consulted mia on this, shout out to mia she didn't end up registering for china and she said she's like, my mama is china if I really want it or need to borrow it.
Speaker 2:But um, but, that's another one of those things like the runner or like are you? Gonna register for china? Or china, yeah, and then, and then, josh's mom wanted us to think about it and then if you have china, you need like a curio cabinet or you need like something to like yes, put it in. Yeah, and it's like where are we gonna do that?
Speaker 1:yeah yeah, I think it's like and maybe that's true like if you take like the 50s, maybe a lot of couples in their early 20s are like moving into like a house in the suburbs that have room for one of those cabinets yeah and we're like city slickers over here we don don't have room for barely anything. Barely even a tablecloth, yeah.
Speaker 2:I think it's a great question and yeah, to each their own, as always.
Speaker 1:To each their own. You know, I think I'm less attached to the tablecloth itself and I just want that table to have a pattern on it.
Speaker 2:I was just going to say I think if you really twisted my arm and I had to put one on my table, it couldn't, I could not do white no I just couldn't.
Speaker 1:I'd have to do a pattern or color, yeah, and it could spruce it up yeah, I think it's like I had a pattern there and a couple pattern pillows here. I think we're really gonna feel something.
Speaker 3:We'll finally feel something.
Speaker 2:I won't be numb all the time.
Speaker 1:And Josh will be less anxious. Yeah, definitely. He'll be less anxious, because you'll be putting the lid on, but I've been tolerating the distress. Well, there you go, well played, and I'm finding other surfaces. So if I get the tablecloth, I'm finding other surfaces to use. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Great question.
Speaker 1:Great question.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 1:Erica and I appreciate the cultural component Component. Learning about that yeah. Now I'm just thinking about the lap yeah, weird on the lap, weird on the lap.
Speaker 2:It is weird if we had like t-shirts for our show for every episode.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this one could be the weird on the lap.
Speaker 2:Weird on the lap, yeah sure with with like a nice little cartoon table with a cloth on it.
Speaker 1:So we're just sitting there kind of like weird on the lap. Yeah, I love it.
Speaker 1:I love it well well, please continue to write in yeah and let us know buts butzjonathan at gmailcom yeah, yeah, and you can write us in with how wise is the questions, but also like topics topics any questions you have. They can even be. You know, don't limit yourself, they can be out out of the box yes we're happy to talk about stuff like that, and if you want to contact me, you can find me at my website, kksychotherapycom, and you can send me an inquiry there.
Speaker 2:Thank you to Blanket Forts yeah.
Speaker 3:Thank you to Blanket Forts for the music.
Speaker 2:Thank you to Josh, yeah.
Speaker 3:Thank you to Josh JoshBayerFil. Thank you to josh josh bear. Filmscom is where you can find me josh b-a-y-e-r.
Speaker 1:like the aspirin films, like the filmscom okay thanks everyone, we'll thank you next week bye, everybody take care wise mind. Happy hour podcast is for entertainment purposes only, not to be treated as medical advice if If you are struggling with your mental health, please seek medical attention or counseling.