The Wise Mind Happy Hour
Two therapists musing about the idea of an inner wise mind and how to connect with this psychic space in different contexts.
The Wise Mind Happy Hour
When is it Wise to PUSH Yourself?
Going to the dentist, writing thank-you notes, EXERCISING 🏋️ these all often come accompanied with the word "should." Well...should we use the word "should?" Enter the multi-dimensional universe of PUSHING...when is it wise to push yourself, and when is it wise to let go? (And when is it easy to mix the 2 up?)
- music by blanket forts -
welcome to the wise mind happy hour podcast. I'm john, joined by kelly yes, I'm kelly welcome your therapists yeah, your resident wise mind happy hour therapist wise mind happy hour therapist, leading you to wise decisions, hopefully in your life about tablecloths, weddings and the like and the like chocolate sweets. Yeah, we've covered a lot of ground yeah, a lot of pretty significant ground yes, yeah, meaningful, yeah, groundbreaking um.
Speaker 1:So yeah, let's just do a little catch-up yeah um what's been going on what has been going on this past weekend? Well, the weather's changing. It's getting warmer thank god thank god, I feel like it's been on pause for a while. Oh yeah, and this was the first weekend I was actually able to take my kids to the pool. Oh wow. I know. Which we didn't think it was going to be warm enough. We got these pool passes this year.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what pool.
Speaker 1:It's the Lincolnwood pool. That's the pool I went to growing up, is it? Oh my God? Were you members? Yes, oh yeah.
Speaker 2:We got to have you as a guest. I would love to oh my God, really my childhood Adult swim. Do they still do it 30 minutes, like every hour.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's definitely not 30 minutes. It's like 10 minutes where they'll have like, well, they'll do the safety checks, but then they'll also have time where it's like just the parents in the pool or whatever, yeah, or adults in the pool. Yeah, it's not a half hour, but um, so I took them there on Saturday was not that warm. We went there, got our passes probably about 25 people there and my kids were like, yeah, let's go in the pool. So they went in for like an hour. Yeah, let's go in the pool. So they went in for like an hour.
Speaker 1:It was basically like you had your own pool, which was awesome, and there's like you know, there's like the little kitty one, and there's like different, you know things no line for the, the slides or anything. The next day we were like, well, it's even warmer, let's go again. So we took some, some friends, and went there and you know it was the first poop in the pool of the season.
Speaker 2:Oh, my God, I remember that so.
Speaker 4:Oh yeah, yep, so what?
Speaker 1:Now, to be fair, my kids had probably been swimming for I don't know, probably like an hour and a half, and then there was an alert. There was this little child who found a lifeguard and I'm noticing that this child is like pulling this lifeguard in his direction, yeah and pointing and he walks past and the lifeguard walks past as well with his child, and I hear this child say it's over there, I saw it over there, and so that starts that.
Speaker 2:That was the dominoes you're just like your knees buckle.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was the dominoes of oh my god now, at that point none of the kids my two kids and then the two friends that you know we we brought with us and their mom, like nobody, was in that pool at that point. They were having snacks. There was another pool that has like diving boards and stuff.
Speaker 1:And so that's where the older kids were at. But yep, sure enough. Announcement get out of the pool. And so there's chairs just around the pool and of course we're sitting in our chairs and we just had front row access. Oh my god, to like the cleanup process and like what do they had to? Drain the whole pool, so they didn't have to. So they don't have to drain the whole pool they used to do that when we stay I mean, how much detail are we given here?
Speaker 1:I mean, they scoop it out. So you know, there was a pool coordinator who came, and then there's this whole cleaning process that they do. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Which took a while, and you know my kids are having a great time in the other pools. That's the advantage here is it's not like it's just one. Yeah, so this whole cleaning process, and then they have to redistribute all this chlorine, and then, once they do all of that which probably took, I don't know know, 45 minutes, then you have to wait 45 minutes before they would even reopen the pool again.
Speaker 1:So I mean we didn't even stay there for that pool to reopen, which I don't even know if my kids would want to go back in that pool after that, um, you almost want them to drain it, but totally anyway so that was our Wow yeah. That is so funny. It was funny, is that?
Speaker 2:an adult who's just like incontinent. No, it had to have been a child.
Speaker 1:My guess would be, if I had to guess it was probably like a swim diaper type of situation, oh sure sure, sure.
Speaker 3:Probably a little kid that was in there with their parents or something like that.
Speaker 1:Right, totally so it was swim season.
Speaker 2:It's here wow, I was on the swim team at lincoln at lincoln wood. Okay, so you and I used to have to go swim when it was like it would be like 50 degrees and we'd be swimming out there my mom be getting mad about like because you'd have to do it in the morning. Yes, because they have a coat and pants, that's right.
Speaker 2:It's like lap swimming is like six to or it's like really early yeah oh, I I mean, like almost every sport I ever did, I begged to quit the second I started, but I can't believe you grew up going there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we'll take you there yes, I would love to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we can go let's do it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know if josh is invited, but no, of course of course, play your cards, right, yeah? That is so fun, yeah, but the first day we went there, nobody's there.
Speaker 2:I don't know if Josh is invited, but no, of course, player cards right. Player cards right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that is so funny. Yeah, but the first day we went there, nobody's there. It was pretty cool.
Speaker 2:That's great.
Speaker 1:It felt like, oh, we reserved this, you know, yeah, and we really just went to get our IDs and if that's all we got for the season, then it would have been worth a trip, but trip. But the kids were like, yeah, let's jump in there is it heated? It is I don't think, so is it?
Speaker 2:it wasn't heated when I was young, but I thought maybe now I don't think it is okay, because when we we went to florida this week on a little mini moon post wedding and the pool there was not heated, it was a little chilly was it yeah, and the ocean was kind of chilly yeah, I didn't go in either day into the pool because the first day I didn't even bring it, like sarah actually like wore a swimsuit, I didn't even put one on because I was like there's no way we're going in this pool like they're like we're just getting the ids, it's not warm enough, and my kids ended up wanting to go in.
Speaker 1:I mean, sarah didn't go in either. But yeah, um, and then the second day I was just like, no, I'm not feeling this, I'm to do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, which is?
Speaker 1:great because the seats are all just right there by the pool. So I brought a book and I was just reading.
Speaker 2:So nice, it was great. Just sit and read, yeah. The best. That's what we did a ton of.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 1:What you reading, John.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm reading a book that came out this year was? I really loved the show the americans? Yeah, this book is basically kind of rehashing the history of the soviet spies. Yes, the real, um, kind of intelligence, you know, uh community that came up in russia and then kind of how they ended up planting these spies with julius and ethel rosenberg no um well, very early in the book. Um, so you know I'm still around like world war ii and kind of like there.
Speaker 1:So I haven't really gotten to the cold war section of it yet, which I'm sure that's probably where it probably ramps up. But yeah, it's kind of outlining, you know, just giving a lot of the background in the history, cause it sounds like the way this book is written that also just their intelligence and spy, you know. I guess I don't know what you call it like program or whatever which is much more well established before the CIA was here in the United States.
Speaker 2:What's it called oh?
Speaker 1:it? What's it called? It's a long title. I would have to look it up, but let me get back to you on that.
Speaker 2:Okay, very cool.
Speaker 1:But yeah, that show was really engaging to me, so I was like oh, yeah, people love that show. Yeah, and I just really like the actor and the actress. Oh, matthew Rhys and Carrie Russell. Yeah, carrie Russell, yeah, she's great, I um matthew reese.
Speaker 2:And yeah, carrie russell, yeah, she's. I was listening to a podcast where the woman was like she's, like I'm ready to leave my family, my children, for matthew they're really married.
Speaker 1:I know they're together because they met on the americans and yes, so cute totally. I'm trying to look up this book right now. But anyway, I'll get back to you but that's what I'm reading right now.
Speaker 4:It's a little bit though.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I feel like I read for a long time and I don't get very far in it because it's there's no dialogue, you know, it's just all facts. Yeah, kind of like history, and so it's a little bit of a dense read.
Speaker 2:Yeah, which is fine, but I'm more of a novel, typically reader so it's just gonna take me a while to get through it, but yeah, it's funny because, like, if I'm forced to read one of those in like a class, I end up usually loving it. But yeah, it's like in my own time. I usually pick a novel, so why?
Speaker 1:yeah, but this was so.
Speaker 1:The subject matter is just so interesting to me because of that show and I actually, speaking of the pool, um, wes and I were waiting outside of the pool for his friends to show up and shane and sarah had gone in and we were waiting, uh, you know, so that we could get them in as guests or whatever.
Speaker 1:And wes looked at my book and he was like, what's that book about? And I kind of told him and he was, you know, I was like, oh, you know, it's about like it would be like, if you know, you thought about um and I just mentioned, you know, a family friend or something like that, and I was like to think that they were like living here this whole time and they were spies, you know, and and west reads his own little like spy it's called spy school, it's like this his own little spy series. And he was like, you know, sometimes I think about my friends sometimes and I'm like maybe they're really like faking and not really being my friend, wow, and I was like yeah, it's kind of like that, like people are like acting, but um so it was kind of funny that he was.
Speaker 1:He was thinking about that in his own life a little bit like what if they're? Really like, not my friend.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh my god, that's amazing, I know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he's like looking at one of his friends like he's like oh, they're russian, or what you really yeah oh my god, I love it.
Speaker 2:That's great. Oh, I love that.
Speaker 1:He like reads yeah, so we he's into this series spy school. So it's like this kid or it's like this secret organization that poses as a school, but it's really. They're training kids to be spies and so it's like they go. Each book is like a different mission and they're up against yeah they're up against a uh evil spy organization called spider, and um yeah oh my god, so fun so yeah, so we read it to him as well.
Speaker 1:So like we're up sar, sarah and I are up on the characters and stuff, so usually like we'll read a chapter out loud with him and then he'll usually like read another chapter after we're done to himself. So then he like updates us in the morning on, like the characters.
Speaker 2:That's great. Yeah, I love it.
Speaker 1:Ben, the main character, ben. Ben. And his love interest, erica. Erica, and she's like the best spy in the school, yeah she is One of our good spies Hard as nails, but now we're seeing another side of her, so the plot thickens.
Speaker 2:Interesting. I love it.
Speaker 1:Get it at your local library. Yeah, at the spy school.
Speaker 2:Probably have it on my Kindle Download it or download, oh yeah. We had a. How wise is that episode there? Yeah, yeah, we, we on our mini moon, we both have been reading, we, we've been reading a little, as I've basically forced josh to read this, but romanticy, have you heard of this? I can guess what it is so I haven't heard of it but I think I can get my sister-in-law, on my bachelorette party, got me the first novel of the series called fourth wing, or the series is called the empyrean series.
Speaker 1:We heard of fourth wing no, maybe from you did you tell me yeah, I, maybe a couple weeks ago or something.
Speaker 2:I probably did it's like about this war college, where these but it's a romance fantasy, yeah, okay where these like students are like preparing for war at this college and they're learning. They're um cadets, they're called riders. There's like different sections of the school and the riders are like the toughest and the riders try to bond with dragons. So they each like get their own dragon.
Speaker 2:Oh, oh, yeah, um and there's some serious cesswall themes, um, and it's great, it's pretty addicting, it's not, you know it's not crime and punishment by any means in terms of like how esoteric it is, but it's a fun read yeah and you will burn through it right, yeah, yeah, you gotta have right.
Speaker 1:You gotta have those reads. Yeah, you gotta have reads that are just good, clean, just beach reading not clean at
Speaker 2:all not clean at all antiseptic, just very, very quick and fun, and yeah totally, so I've read all three of the series already nice, so that's the type of book you would take on a trip yeah, well, now I'm reading another series that, like they recommend for people who've read that series yeah which is similar. This one's about fairies, oh um. I don't know if it's quite as addicting, but I am liking it. That's great, and josh has moved on to reading something with a little more um thematic complexity yeah yeah, have you read adventures of cavalier and clay?
Speaker 1:yeah, I read that. I love that book. Um yeah, that is an amazing novel but michael, is it michael shaben? I don't know, I would bone, I would I for some reason would say shalom I, yeah, I think I would say it the first way. You said it, maybe like chab chab chab, chab, chab um, yes, I I really enjoy all of his novels yeah, but that one was a great novel.
Speaker 4:It's one of those ones where, like the first 50 pages, they're talking about, like smuggling, a golo modus and I'm like, okay, yeah and.
Speaker 4:But now, once you get into the part where, like, the kids are all together like trying to launch the car that's kind of right where I am and it's basically a bunch of underdog kids, like in world war ii, trying to start a comic book, uh, comic book, a comic book company together as like kind of children illustrators, like when, like, superman was first a thing, but then there's like hitler stuff going on and it's kind of like the beginning of world war ii and one of the kids was like kind of exported out of um, what is it? Uh, czechoslovakia, and the whole rest of his family is like still there, like maybe dying, but he's like often america making comic books with his cousin.
Speaker 1:That was a book that I there are certain books that I will remember being like at work and only thinking about I can't wait till I get home, and that was one of those books yeah, I'm starting to love it it's it's, it takes a while, like compared to, and it's a long book yeah, I think I'm less than halfway through, but I can tell I starting to love it.
Speaker 4:It takes a while, like compared to Fourth Wing, and it's a long book. Yeah, I think I'm less than halfway through, but I can tell I'm going to love it at this point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, did he also write the Yiddish Policeman's Union?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I know multiple people who couldn't get through that book. Yeah, I liked it.
Speaker 1:And I'm trying to think of the other one of his that I liked, but liked, but.
Speaker 4:Um, that is by far my favorite well, okay, yeah, I've wanted to read it for, I think, a decade plus now so that almost makes me want to read it again it's one of those books I started many times and then I would like start a different book out of peer pressure. Sure, solidarity, yeah.
Speaker 2:Fourth wing fourth wing, I feel like multiple times.
Speaker 3:It wasn't just shots fired on, no, it wasn't just fourth wing. I think it might have been you every time but it was some book you were reading that like.
Speaker 4:I feel like multiple times it wasn't just shots fired on, no, it wasn't just fourth wing. I think it might've been you every time, but it was some book you were reading that like. But I'd get excited. I'd get excited Cause I I do like reading books, like, not necessarily at the same time as you, but like you know, or a book you've read, cause it's just solidarity.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, oh yeah, with Eileen it's fun to discuss it with someone. Yeah.
Speaker 4:But you know, now that I know that John loves this book, I'm going to be like hitting him up every night.
Speaker 1:Oh, just pound through. Oh, that's right. He wrote Wonder Boys.
Speaker 4:Oh, that's the movie I want to watch with you. Have you seen that movie? Yeah, it's great right.
Speaker 1:It is Okay.
Speaker 4:I haven't even remember the plot. It's one of those weird of where a lot of things happen, but it's kind of like about characters and funny yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm excited to hear when you finish Cavalier play. It's a great one, yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, we can get into our topic Today. We can just quickly segue into our topic today. We're going to be talking about the idea of pushing yourself. So, yeah, we'll, we'll kind of define that a little bit. Yeah, pushing yourself shoving people cliff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so basically we're. I think what we're getting at is like moments. Getting at is like moments when, or the idea of like do I, and when do I push myself to do something, to try something, push myself in a direction rather than maybe wait to kind of intuitively be led somewhere? Not that intuition can't come into this, but you know, like go with what I feel, like doing what I want. Where do I actually push myself? And yeah, we just wanted to open this up a little bit so I wonder what what comes up for you initially.
Speaker 1:Well, it what speaks to me about this is certainly from more of like that acceptance and commitment therapy lens the idea of like committed action, so committing to something in service of your values, so what's important to you, versus committing or pushing yourself to something because you feel like doing it. And a lot of times the you know values being those things, like those directions that give our life meaning, those are hard directions to move towards, and a lot of times there's a lot of resistance internally for us, and so you know pushing yourself to do the meaningful thing is not easy a lot of times, and so I very strongly resonate with the idea of if we wait to feel like doing stuff, we're probably going to be waiting a long time and a lot of life is pushing ourself through a lot of discomfort and and through resistance, whether that's thoughts or emotions or any type of barriers.
Speaker 1:So I don't know, that's what. The first thing that came to mind was like committing to something not because you feel like it yeah pushing yourself, because it's it's going to give you a meaningful experience yeah whatever that is yeah, totally.
Speaker 2:You know it's like I totally believe in this idea and like definitely make use of it in my clinical work in my own life. But I also know there's like a very strong part of me that kind of like is biased toward like the right things kind of feel right and feel organic and and almost like if you listen into your wise mind, there'll be no struggle, if you listen into your wise mind, there'll be no struggle, and I think that's like that's true and it isn't true. Or like pushing yourself. It doesn't even always have to be a struggle.
Speaker 2:You know it can be like it's an effort and I know, like even cause I'm you know I'm I'm very into the manifestation of it all that I often like even have an interesting relationship with like efforting toward things and and I believe so much in like surrender and letting go and releasing things as a way to move in the direction you want to. You know, like, like a self-worth is and wise mind is often like shedding something that doesn't belong there. But I do know there is such an essential piece that is pushing and sometimes I do struggle to like negotiate the two and I'm even thinking, you know it's like, where do? I struggle to push myself where I know in my wise mind it's needed. I mean, this could even be like doing my thank you notes for my wedding showers and my wedding.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, if you waited to feel like doing those you're not writing those You're never going to write those, and I speak from personal experience in that Totally.
Speaker 2:So it's like I don't feel like doing them at any given present moment. Right, there's no Saturday morning. I wake up and I'm like, oh man, you know what I feel like doing, but it it is something meaningful. Right, expressing my gratitude individually through. There's definitely a bug in here through that fly loves you it's like but do yeah, is that meaningful to me? Do I care about that and find that like a rich experience, to like exchange, like gratitude and thank someone for celebrating me and going out of their way.
Speaker 2:For me, yes, that is, that is a value aligned thing for me, that like I don't have to push myself to value it right, I don't have to push myself like you never have to push yourself with that, with like, finding value in something so you, yeah, you know the value totally and that's into, it's the doing.
Speaker 2:It's the doing, it's the sitting down pen to paper envelope, lick it, stamp it, walk it down to the mailbox, like all of that is. Yeah, I definitely, and things like that I often have to push myself toward things especially that don't have a deadline yeah but are meaningful. You know, is there a little bit of a or even like exercise I have.
Speaker 1:Well, no, I mean, my mind immediately went to the easiest thing probably for people to resonate with is exercise. More often than not, probably, people have to push themselves to do that Totally Because they know the value. Logically, and if you wait to, you know, I think there is a certain population that you don't like. They look forward to it all the time and, yeah, you know I think there is, though, a little, probably more often than not, like you have to push yourselves towards that right, because it's there's a lot of reasons not to do it, or your mind gives you a lot of reasons, or your mood is I don't feel like doing it, you know right, yeah, and you know I think too, like the the opposite can be true as well.
Speaker 2:Right, it's like we can. I know I can fall into pushing myself too little sometimes out of like my ideology, that like everything comes from, like opening up space for it which I do really believe in my heart, like, but that doesn't exclude pushing yourself at the same time.
Speaker 2:that can be part of that. But I think are there places where people do this too little, are there places where people do this too much, yeah, or even where I do it too much, like push, push at something you know, like I mean, mean, josh, actually you push yourself a lot.
Speaker 4:you're a pusher of yourself, right I would say so, yeah, and it's interesting because I I have a lot of comments and I don't know which one to say. First, because, as you've been talking, I've been listening, but I, yeah, I do think, push myself. Sometimes I almost have to push myself in a different way. You could think of it as stereotypically not pushing yourself, but like I feel like. So sometimes my mode is so much like get all this stuff done and like I think my OCD is somewhat to thank for that, like like I may not feel like doing a task, task, but like I feel messy and I don't feel clean until it's like done, and so it's like I feel good, like checking something off the list.
Speaker 2:Um, and sometimes you don't feel clean, unless you've sort of suffered yeah, yeah so which I do not have that illness.
Speaker 4:Am I like totally getting off on a tangent. No. Yeah, so yeah, it's like there's so many different types of pushing yourself. Like I feel like there's like physical exertion, yeah, there's like doing tasks you don't want to do, but then you could also think of it in the more meta sense of like pushing yourself almost to like play against type, because, like I'm a workaholic, so it's like sometimes I need to push myself to be like you are not going to think about work at all.
Speaker 4:You're going to sit down and watch game of thrones and like really focus on the episode and like, like you're allowed to like daydream about the movie you're editing because that's a helpful part of your process, but like don't do it for too long, like, or maybe try not to do it at all. Um, yeah, I don't know if I'm like arriving at a point, no, but I think that's interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the different like types of pushing yourself, yeah, pushing yourself, yeah well, that's yeah, and which probably begs the question is the pushing, whether it's too little or too much, some sort of avoidance or control or you know like am I avoiding the discomfort of having to sit with idle time or not not working, because that might be really uncomfortable, because working gives me a sense of productivity or clean, or you know, whatever it is.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And so, whether it's the lack of push or too much, either way, it's probably one of those controllers skate moves right, which is like I, I'm protective. Yeah, I'm protecting myself from something that's uncomfortable for me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, yeah, I think that is a really great barometer, you know, and a gateway ultimately to wise mind. To kind of ask, like, by pushing in this space, pushing right here, am I avoiding some feeling, or even like running towards some feeling, because really value aligned things, wise minded things? It's gonna sound funny but I think you don't really get anything out of them. I know I don't mean that literally, but like you don't get this like juicy reaction. It's a deeper, like I talked I've talked with many clients recently about this where it really is like a nothingness. That actually feels good. Often when you're value aligned, when you're wise-minded, self-energy, it's very spacious and kind of still. So you're not really getting anything out of it. I mean I guess you could argue you're getting a bit of a sense of, like peace and wholeness, but I think it doesn't feel so like experience-y. It's very kind of clear that you get. So it's almost like I mean I think a simple question you could kind of ask is am I getting something right now out of this, or does it just feel aligned? And I think that's important Like even with something like exercise.
Speaker 2:It's like for some people exercise is a numbing. You know I work with a ton of people with eating disorder issues and exercise addiction. I talked about exercise addiction even today and you know, there is this like numbing of feeling that happens, or sometimes there's an OCD element where you feel clean if you've done these rituals and worked your body in this way and so you get that out of it. But could exercise be, you know, moving your body, respecting your body, aligned in that way, and you do it and there may not be such a hit that you get, but more like this I know is meaningful and respectful and nourishing to my body. And there's that knowing. Yeah, maybe it's more a knowing than like a feeling that you get.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I think the wisdom in this for me, that we're talking through it, is maybe the knowledge that, whether I feel like not pushing or pushing too much or somewhere in between, it's knowing that we can act against it if that's the wise move, yeah right. So if the urge is to push myself so much, yeah knowing, though, I don't have to give into that urge, as uncomfortable as that is and maybe not push as hard yeah that's maybe where the inherent wisdom is it lies, is in knowing that we don't have to act on our urges yeah now that's really hard to you know thread that needle yeah sometimes, and it's hard to catch it, and sometimes that's the effective thing is, we catch it in the middle of doing it.
Speaker 1:I'm not pushing enough, and so I really got to get up and go for a walk or do that exercise, or, yeah, we catch it in the middle of doing it.
Speaker 1:I'm not pushing enough, and so I really got to get up and go for a walk or do that exercise, or we catch ourselves like God. It's 2 AM, I'm working. I got to let this go Like I got to get some sleep, right? So I think it's knowing that the urge to do something and our action is separate, right? We talked about opposite action from a DBT perspective is there. There's wisdom there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. And in that, in what you're saying, is that key piece. I think, strangely enough, like honoring the urge itself as a feeling, acknowledging it, recognizing it, can actually be that like through line or that gateway to your values, not fighting the urge itself, but more like this is here and getting curious Is it aligned? Is it what is most meaningful to me? And if it isn't, that's when you can kind of step in the other direction. That's when you can kind of step in the other direction instead of write that like even fighting yourself for having the urge, you know, like judging myself for not wanting to exercise, when it's like I can just notice, like a resisting feeling and avoidant urges. Here Can I make some spaciousness, make space for that as a feeling, and then you kind of transcend it. You look at now what is value aligned, what is wise minded? I know what I want and I know what I don't want. Let's go further. What's important to me, what really matters?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm going to have to push myself. This Thursday I got a dentist appointment. Oh yeah, I have to make a. This thursday I got a dentist appointment oh, I have to make a dentist.
Speaker 2:I hate the dentist.
Speaker 1:Yeah, me too shout out dentists out there we love you no, but I know it's on my calendar and I turned it over and I was like this week, I was like oh, is it just a cleaning? Yeah, but it doesn't matter. It's something that, no matter how many times I do it. Yeah, it's one of those things, but it doesn't matter. It's something that, no matter how many times I do it yeah it's one of those things where it's like it's meaningful.
Speaker 1:I hate it. Yeah, I remind myself when I'm there. Take a picture of yourself so you can show the kids, like, how important it is to go to the dentist, because if they don't want to go like, everybody's got to do it. Right, like and just overall health. But it's always something that it's like, no matter how many times I go, it doesn't get any easier for me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I just find it painful.
Speaker 1:I don't. It's not the pain. I find it very uncomfortable to have somebody else's fingers in my mouth.
Speaker 2:A hundred percent.
Speaker 1:And it just makes me want to like gag yeah, like in my mouth, 100. And it just makes me want to like gag yeah, like it just makes me think. And also I just feel like you're in like a compromised position with somebody who's just like over you, like you're laying down yeah and vulnerable and also yes, and also just an annoyance factor is like why are you talking to me? I can't talk back 100 yeah like you're. You do.
Speaker 1:You see what you're doing yeah, I can't talk back to you so just all of it to me is kind of and always has been a really uncomfortable process. Yeah, um. So I know I'm going to be doing some pushing on thursday you know what some like super wealthy people do, like the kardashians?
Speaker 2:they just like get put under every time they go to the dentist yeah, I've never done that which I don't know, if I don't feel for a clinging, it's yeah, or even just for a clean and usually they can do it pretty quick.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I usually just put my airpods in yeah and I'm just like hoping that they get the message that it's like, hey, like tap me on the shoulder if you need me to like do something, but like I'm just gonna be listening to my music and not engaging with you zoning out. I'm hitting the eject button like I don't want to be here, so so anyway, that just I kind of forgot about it yeah, since we've been recording but I was like man, I'm really gonna have to push myself every time the dentist comes up, I have to push myself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because it isn't what you want to spend your time doing. And it's meaningful dental health.
Speaker 1:Right, it's mental health, as Josh would say it is For sure, it's so important. I don't even have to usually go, thankfully that often, but it just it's always like I don't want to go.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I have to go, I have to make an appointment and I've been sorry that was a little tangential.
Speaker 1:But I was thinking in my life of, like, where I'm pushing myself and I was like, oh well, in two days you're gonna have to. Yeah, really, I'm literally gonna be waking up thinking because my appointment's at four, so I'm gonna be thinking about it all day and just like when is this appointment just gonna be over?
Speaker 2:yeah, I I don't love it either. Yeah, there's things like that. Actually, I have a doctor's appointment on friday or on thursday, so solidarity would you rather go to the doctor or the dentist? I guess it depends, yeah, what they're doing, what they're doing that like long eye exam thing at the ophthalmologist, and then I have another doctor appointment like right on top of it.
Speaker 2:So I like the eye doctor yeah, it's okay as long as you're not dilated, it's pretty they kind of dilate me every time and then they make me like follow this dot on this machine for like 45 minutes.
Speaker 1:You get those sweet like huge sunglasses. Yeah, she looked awesome 75. Take a picture of yourself with those, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the first time they dilated me I hadn't happened and they didn't really explain it to me, Because I think at the ophthalmologist. They assume that you've been to an optometrist, which I hadn't, and I was just like what is this? And then I couldn't read my phone and I was like what's going on? And then I looked in the mirror and I looked so scary Because you really look scary yeah you kind of look While you're at the while you're at the?
Speaker 1:uh, yeah, great. I'll take a picture of my dad Matching uh medical appointments.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think I'm going to the dentist on Monday, oh. I feel, bad if I've got this wrong. I'm not looking at my calendar right now. I'm about a hundred. Know we could have a fun little compare and contrast show and tell of our dentist, of our teeth yeah, yeah, I'll show you mine, you show me your prognosis.
Speaker 1:Bring your x-rays, I'll bring mine.
Speaker 2:Oh my god, yeah, I mean yes, you definitely have to push yourself in those areas. And I'm trying to think too, like you know, because I know I philosophically like do from time to time struggle with this, like tension of like where, even with my clients, like where am I encouraging them to let go and just listen in and where is?
Speaker 2:is there kind of a pushing Because I'll even notice, you know, sometimes with certain issues that come up, or maybe patterns of issues, I do go to the more pushing side where I'm doing a lot of coaching you know, here's where you have to really push. Here's where you have to notice what you want to do, and I want to say surpass it, but that's the wrong word. You have to notice what you want to do and what's the word I'm looking for, Like power through yeah, Override it almost, I you know.
Speaker 2:Or like it's like you acknowledge it and then you kind of push you know, forward toward what's meaningful, what's moving you toward your own goal, your own value, and it might be something you don't like or something you don't even necessarily understand fully. You know how, how it helps. It's a complicated thing.
Speaker 1:That's like pushing yourself yeah, I think a lot of it, a lot of probably the work we do is pushing people yeah right. I mean it's like having people confront whether they're doing it at first, or we're leading them in that direction, or even we're pushing them to explore things that they don't want to explore or experience.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Just in the therapy space alone.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:There's kind of like a pushing there Right, or even, I guess, the slowing down If somebody's pushing too much or they want to. I'm thinking about, just like, the therapy space. If they're like pushing too much an agenda, or they want to go somewhere, or they want to avoid a certain topic, or it's like slowing them down and saying you're pushing too hard there, right, we probably wouldn't use that language, but the idea of the candidates like they're avoiding something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, would you say something Josh.
Speaker 4:I feel like I yeah, I had a couple different things. I'll say one of them. So I feel like a word that comes up a lot in the therapy space I'm the one who's not a therapist here. I don't know why I'm saying this, but I seem to think that this is worth saying the word should, yeah. And I feel like, was this in a show or a book when the therapist is like oh, it's that should word? Again, something rings true about that.
Speaker 2:Maybe your own therapist.
Speaker 4:Yeah, maybe my own therapist. I'm getting my own therapy sessions mixed up with media and you're both therapists and it's all blending together. But like is the word should ever wise, I guess, is my question.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I'm curious what you think, john.
Speaker 1:I would. It's definitely a word I would not use in the therapy space. And. I would be very mindful of bringing that attention if somebody I'm working with is using that word a lot. Like I should be doing this. I should right, like that's something we would want people, from my perspective, to clue into, and because there's a lot of guilt, there's probably a lot of shame blame like all of those things.
Speaker 1:It's probably coming also from maybe programming that this person received from parents or caregivers culture, family, of the things they should be doing as opposed to the things maybe they want to be doing. Or I mean, certainly as a therapist I'm sure Kelly would agree we would never use the word should to somebody like you should do this or you shouldn't do that. That's just not language that really enters into our minds when working with patients.
Speaker 1:Cause it's extremely invalidating and also, I think, it's when people use it in the therapy space. I don't know what you think, but that would probably be a moment to pause there and kind of like maybe notice it, educate. Notice it what it's doing? Where is it coming from that type?
Speaker 2:of thing. Well, yeah, you know it's funny, like as like my, my, my first love dbt other than josh, my that's okay my primary love, you know, like, should is so often Like.
Speaker 2:I was even in strict DBT environments where even a consultation among clinicians, like if someone used the word should, it was called out immediately. That's a judgment, because the idea being self-determination, right Like deciding what's right to do based on what is meaningful to you, deciding what's right to do based on what is meaningful to you and should it does tend to imply like this moral judgment that's kind of outside of your own wise mind. You know what, what do you find meaningful? And, given what you find meaningful, what are effective actions in that direction and what are ineffective actions in that direction? Based on what you care about.
Speaker 2:And I actually think that's often what like separates the kind of therapy we do as like counselors and social workers, compared to maybe more like medical model type things is like self-determination, really like what you get to drive this and based on what you tell me you want.
Speaker 2:That's where I guide you. I'm not some like paternalistic arbiter of what's right for you, nor is like society or your parents or your partner or friends or whatever your government, anything. You know, it's what do you find meaningful and what's effective in moving in that direction. So maybe I think you bring up a good point, that maybe when the pushing is often related to some kind of should, some kind of like moral judgment, like double tapping on that opening up that concept with a client or with myself, right, you know, like, where is this coming from, this judgment? Do I really in my heart, in my wise mind, in my solar plexus, do I really believe that's right? Or is there just some part of me that's kind of has that programming? You know that, whatever, like I should exercise five times a week, I should be thin, I should not have sex outside of marriage, I should, you know, whatever it is Work 80-hour, weeks Work 80-hour weeks Make X amount of money.
Speaker 4:I should go to the dentist.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah.
Speaker 4:Like, all these things that we're talking about seem like they could be paired with a should pretty easily, and that's why I think that this is such a kind of mind fuck.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. But I think that's where, again, for me it's about slowing it down and saying, okay, like your mind's telling you you should do it, is there value in going to the dentist for you, If we took that word out of it. Could you give me some of the reasons why going to the dentist without the if somebody's lost in that and kind of saying, well, I don't really know, I guess I haven't really thought about it. And then to me that's a little bit more of like a point of okay, well, where is that voice coming from?
Speaker 1:then that's telling you should go to the dentist, I think if they don't really know if they're using should, but they don't know why they're saying yeah. I'm not really sure why I'm saying I should be whatever.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I love that, and in that case, what I might encourage someone to do is like until you know what you value it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Can I challenge you not to do it Right, like, let's say, it were getting a manicure every other week or something? You know that's what you do, you know and you know why is that meaningful to you. If someone couldn't really say I might challenge them to and then they'd have to experience like if discomfort comes up with that. There's stuff to really mind there in the therapy space. What's it like to be imperfect in your appearance? What's it like and there's in your appearance? What's it like, and there's a version of it where?
Speaker 1:somebody could say well, that's my self-care and it's meaningful for me because it gives me an hour away from my family and my kids. And they, you know, and so if they have that built in, maybe, or it doesn't take much effort for them to think about it, then maybe it's just more about to me, the educating about. Well, maybe then let's loosen up the language. Maybe we shouldn't say should. It sounds like it's a meaningful thing for you, yeah, you love it, you love it.
Speaker 2:You know that type of thing, you value it. Yeah, totally, totally, I think I like that. The should brings an interesting element to pushing yourself.
Speaker 1:And people use that language all the time oh yeah, all the time. Oh yeah, people will should all over themselves. Terrible joke, but yeah should, yeah, they should all over themselves.
Speaker 2:totally, I think such a foundational thing in the work I do with clients and and just like with myself, my relationship with myself is like where do I let go? Where do I open up space? Where do I tolerate, where do do I allow things? That's so much, but even that I mean it's effortful, it's sometimes the most effortful, it's the most pushing you do. It's to let go, I think I.
Speaker 2:I remember I heard, um, the guy from succession, jeremy strong, right, yeah, he's the actor. Yeah, jeremy Allen way. Yeah, totally, with a guy from succession, jeremy strong, right, yeah, he's the actor. Yeah, jeremy ellenway. Yeah, totally, shout out to both of them. Um, jeremy strong was talking, I think he was on mark maron's podcast and he was talking about in some acting class. They had talked about like presence and they were like saying you know, the most important thing is presence, you know, in acting, and they're like and don't worry, it's just engaging in presence is like asking you to let go of everything there is other than this moment, you know like it is a profoundly important and like difficult task to really let go of everything.
Speaker 2:If you think about it that way, when people are like I can't, I can't meditate, I can't get mindful, it's like no wonder. I mean, it is incredibly difficult to ask you to shed everything. So it's okay if that's a struggle, it's okay if that's really imperfect when you practice that. But yeah, like that's an important place of pushing the like, recognizing all the things we're clinging to and relinquishing, letting go yeah totally that's hard.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but important, yeah, sometimes we're like I mean, I'm this client. I think sometimes like I'm really comfortable like avoiding, yeah, and like relaxing. I'm like very comfortable in I don't even want to say it's necessarily stillness, cause that's like a little bit giving myself too much credit. I think it's like avoiding kind of puttering around and you know like sometimes things that are focused and effortful, I can, yeah, I can avoid out of fear that it'll be too arduous, too painful in some way I think of letting go too much.
Speaker 1:The first thing that comes to mind is the people I work with. When it comes to relational, like boundaries, yeah, they let things go.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they let things go too much. They let things go too far, whatever that I mean using their language, they would you know or, in my perspective, maybe going too far like just saying they're okay with everything and not pushing themselves to set a boundary. That's going to be probably initially really uncomfortable, but effective for them and probably the other person, though the other person may not realize it longer term. So that's what comes to mind is like boundaries when people let go too much.
Speaker 2:Yes that is such a huge place where it's a struggle to push oneself like when it comes to like honestly expressing a boundary that you hold within that you know is uncomfortable to share with another person. Yeah, I think that is a place to definitely push yourself, and it can be really hard really hard yeah, josh is giving me the eyes because it's never a one-time event.
Speaker 1:Very rarely right boundaries are like ongoing and so that's always and people are not going to respect them. She's giving me the eyes Because it's never a one-time event Very rarely right Boundaries are ongoing.
Speaker 4:Oh my God.
Speaker 1:And people are not going to respect them and they're going to push back on them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think the wise mind is balance. The seat of values is balance in its nature and it's getting to that place. So, yes, I think we are always seeking balance. But what does that actually mean? I think it transcends definition a bit. I think it's a felt sense a bit more, as is when you're value aligned, when you're wise-minded, things feel aligned.
Speaker 1:I think it's hard to. I would be careful about the word balance because to me, if that's, we just want to be careful with that being like a goal maybe.
Speaker 4:Cause, then people might strive too much for it and then Right, right, talking about it almost. Right.
Speaker 1:And we almost might feel more we might almost feel more out of balance the more we strive for it yes because then we're just grinding it so hard and it has to look so like something that we have in mind.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so like harmony peace like the like that book, the happiness trap by russ, harris.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like that idea that know we're. It's a trap to be striving so much for happiness in our lives, like we've been programmed, though, to think that that's what the ultimate goal is. Right. But it's a trap because emotions are going to change and so the more we kind of like seek that out like I have to be happy, I have to be happy Like it probably creates more chaos in our lives.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:As opposed to just being more open to any experience or any emotion.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that spaciousness. Whoa. So, yeah, pushing yourself can definitely have value, especially if it's coming from the wise minded directions, the value aligned directions that you want to go. So listening inward to the wise mind kind of gives you that sense of where do I push and where is pushing something moralistic, something that isn't true to me, and so much work in therapy is like what's actually true to you. Yes, you.
Speaker 1:You brought up Marc Maron. You know his podcast is ending.
Speaker 2:I know, I just saw that.
Speaker 1:I mean we should take a moment of silence, because the man yeah how many Thousands of episodes, right?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I think he's been doing it for 15 years.
Speaker 1:Unbelievable.
Speaker 2:Wow, the king of podcasts.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I love Marc Maron. I immediately became panicked that the library wouldn't be accessible of past episodes. I'm sure you can like purchase it or something. Ugh, but God, is it so great. How many of those episodes are like etched into my mind forever. They're so great.
Speaker 2:It's wild to think of how much time he dedicated to, yeah, that format, this format yeah, oh my god, he's so great so certainly, and I mean if he needs someone to kind of like take up the mantle yeah, or if he ever wants to be a guest, if he's ever jonesing for a podcast. I would truly open invite.
Speaker 1:Stop by mark Mark.
Speaker 2:Yeah, mr Marin he always like over and over on his podcast, brings up like an attachment book the fantasy bond. I think, I've never read the book, but he said it like changed his life and his relationship to his parents Divorce. I really I got to read it.
Speaker 1:Well he said it's great, but well, I'm glad we recognized him, because I just read that this week I know.
Speaker 2:That's so sad. Shout out to Mark Maron.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And the quote that I saw him say is we're burnt out.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I thought it would be kind of like. You know it's been years of wonderful.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So, mark, we're burnt out. Yeah, I'm done honest, yeah, honest, which is great, yeah, okay, well do we have a?
Speaker 1:how wise is a question?
Speaker 2:oh, I didn't think of one. Yeah, how is this to break the rules?
Speaker 1:and sometimes, maybe we're gonna push ourselves to not have one this week and people to come up with their own. Yeah, we're gonna push you, the listener, to think about your own how-wises is the question.
Speaker 2:Yeah, do a little work for us. Come on now.
Speaker 1:We'll leave it at that. We'll leave it there.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much, everyone.
Speaker 1:Thank you. Thank you, blake at Ford's. Yeah For the music. Yes, shout out.
Speaker 2:If you want to reach me you can find me at my websitezjonathan at gmailcom. We'll see you all soon next week. Thanks everybody, thanks, yes, thank him again. The wise mind happy hour podcast is for entertainment purposes only, not to be treated as medical advice. If you are struggling with your mental health, please seek medical attention or counseling.