The Wise Mind Happy Hour
Two therapists musing about the idea of an inner wise mind and how to connect with this psychic space in different contexts.
The Wise Mind Happy Hour
A Wise Intro to Mindfulness
Regardless of how you feel about meditation, mindfulness and the like...there is a lot to discuss. Whether you love it, hate it, or just want to learn more...Kelly and Jon provide some wisdom.
- music by blanket forts -
welcome to the wise mind happy hour I'm john and I'm kelly welcome yes, we're here. We're back, back in studio. I feel like it's been a while yeah, it's been a minute.
Speaker 2:It was the fourth of july, yeah holidays, family stuff observe, yeah, um, yeah yeah, I like that. It's kind of like forced down your throat totally as an american, totally, and even if you're like feeling blah about amer, that it's kind of like forced down your throat totally as an american totally, and even if you're like feeling blah about america, it's like everything's, you're gonna have a hot dog or something a lot of things are open though yeah still, yeah, surprising, open, yeah really most things right.
Speaker 1:Well, what have you been up to these past couple weeks?
Speaker 2:weeks. Yeah, for fourth of july, um, josh and I went to michigan. Um, yeah, we went to visit his. Well, we kind of went to visit josh's family, our family, um, but his mom and sister actually weren't there because they're moving her in to her new place in new york. Um, so we ended up going and just like, stayed at the house, watched the dogs, which was, which was fun. The dogs were cute.
Speaker 1:Did you see any fireworks?
Speaker 2:We did. There were fireworks like all around, right, Josh.
Speaker 4:Yeah, lots of fireworks. You didn't like go to see them?
Speaker 1:No, you could just see them where you were.
Speaker 2:They literally in Josh's backyard there were like fireworks all around.
Speaker 1:I guess, that's like a suburb thing Did your neighbor set them off? There were like fireworks all around.
Speaker 4:I guess that's like a suburb thing, did your neighbor?
Speaker 1:set them off, they, it seemed that way.
Speaker 2:That's awesome yeah I like that it's great we didn't have to lift a finger, um, although like you have a lot of trees in your backyard so it was like we had to like kind of go around to see them, but it was cool.
Speaker 3:Fireworks into trees just lighting them on fire, yeah it was a glow.
Speaker 1:Uh, that's awesome. I didn't see fireworks this year, but you hear them so much in the city, it's wild yeah it's like so loud yeah but there was some on tv that I tried to force my youngest to watch and he wasn't that interested in it.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I wonder these days, are kids into fireworks?
Speaker 1:I think live.
Speaker 2:Totally.
Speaker 1:Last year we went for a barbecue at somebody's house in the city and they were like oh yeah, it's great. Like there's a vacant lot that's like right across the street. There hasn't been a business that's gone into it yet and so basically the whole neighborhood, kind of like, goes there and just sets off fireworks. Whoa and so he had purchased a bunch from indiana, brought them and the kids, like they all sat just like on this curb of this like parking lot there's, like vacant parking lot and it was just like setting off, like it was.
Speaker 2:It was awesome I'd be scared a little, a little yeah it was.
Speaker 1:I mean, he got some like real fireworks. Kids had sparklers, though, which was cool um, but they were into it because it was just like right there, cool.
Speaker 2:So I think live nice live is the way to go yeah so that's really what we did.
Speaker 1:We like barbecued dog sad dog sad it was two dogs dog, josh's family dog, two dogs.
Speaker 2:His family dog tripped him pretty bad, oh no, and josh took a tumble no is that okay for me to say, of course, yeah, um, yeah, he like flew out the door like the dog you know, like little dogs sometimes are like so eager and they want to be right under your feet, yeah, they were under josh's feet the whole time we were there and tripped him and he fell.
Speaker 4:How old are these dogs? One and 12, I think.
Speaker 3:Oh, wow the one-year-old tripped me.
Speaker 1:Very excitable one-year-old yeah.
Speaker 4:I thought I killed the dog.
Speaker 1:Oh God.
Speaker 4:Because I fell on it and then he him um cody. He squeaked yeah, so I thought that was the end of the dog what kind of? Dog, is it um? He's a he's. Uh. What is he? Is he a golden? Uh golden noodle no, he's one breed a terrier, a golden terrier it's.
Speaker 2:It's a popular breed right now, and I'm forgetting the name of it.
Speaker 4:It's like he's like blonde and fluffy.
Speaker 2:He's absurdly cute. I mean, he's so cute you almost can't look at him.
Speaker 1:His little face is like does he look like a stuffed animal?
Speaker 2:yes, a little bit, totally he is. Everyone who sees him is like oh, oh, my god, what a cute dog. Like really. His little face is so cute and he's really like bold, like he'll jump on you trip you trip you in the middle of the night like walk on your body oh man yeah
Speaker 1:it's like, so stepped on your back does it make you want to own dogs?
Speaker 2:for me. No, I mean, I love dogs, but it's like I know from having one when I was younger. It's just such an enormous amount of work.
Speaker 1:It's a lot of work.
Speaker 2:And Josh is a very good dog sitter. Dog owner. Like taking the dog out. I feel like you take them out every hour.
Speaker 4:I'm a very good dog.
Speaker 1:Can you let them out in the yard, or was there no like fenced in Would? Can you let them out in the yard, or was there no like fenced in? Would they like run?
Speaker 4:away. They've got an electric fence so we kind of let them roam. It's like good to keep an eye on them, but you know, yeah, you can like take your eye off, roll the dice.
Speaker 2:You're so, though you're out there with them. Oh, I'm out there with them, Like they're not a leave them in the yard family it's like we go out if we let them out.
Speaker 4:We go out if we walk them, and it's a long walk, like I'll take my eye off them for 40 minutes and like it's in the back of my head like, oh, this is bad, this is where are they? Yeah yeah yeah, they could be hit by a car.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure it goes above and beyond, which is wonderful. You're amazing pet owners. It gives me life, I mean I think about us when we were little. I'm like, whew, it's all social services. Like we'd walk the dog four times a day and it wasn't always like full-blown walks.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 2:That was about it.
Speaker 1:When I walked into your building today, somebody was leaving with two dogs, and then I was waiting for the elevator and somebody got off the elevator with two dogs.
Speaker 2:There are so many dogs in this building A lot of dogs, it dogs in this building.
Speaker 1:It's a lot of dogs. It's a very pet-friendly building, which is great. They have two dogs next door. I don't think he has a dog. Wow, two in a condo can be. That feels like a lot Cat.
Speaker 4:We got a cat next door.
Speaker 2:Oh, there's a cat next door. We got two dogs next door. Yeah, there's, I think there's like everyone has a dog except for us. Everyone has two dogs.
Speaker 1:Yeah, one dog well, that's the companion thing, right don't people get it for the companionship yeah so that when you leave them home alone, you don't feel as guilty oh, oh, oh, the companion no, not with the human companion for the human. Yeah, one dog's, not one dog is companion is companion for a human over for human the the two dogs is like well when I leave them home alone, right isn't?
Speaker 2:that the I think that's the philosophy. Philosophy a little bit Well yeah, Like when your dog Dylan passed away, your mom was like we got to get another dog for Riley.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so we immediately replaced Dylan.
Speaker 3:No no.
Speaker 4:But Dylan was like huge though.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is like a little tiny dog now as the replacement.
Speaker 4:We do have intergenerational trauma, though I keep saying cause Dylan would bark at everyone on the street, and then Riley, I think. And then Riley started copying him. Second dog and then third dog barks at everyone.
Speaker 1:How do you get out of that loop then? If, if they always need another dog, you're, you're, you're stuck in that loop, I guess like discipline, but we don't really do that. It's just kind of like we need another dog for that other dog, yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, when our dog died, we didn't get another dog ever.
Speaker 1:What was your dog's?
Speaker 2:name Abby, abby, abby the Labby. I think we were little and we were like we should name her Labby, labby and then it became Abby.
Speaker 3:She was such a good dog.
Speaker 2:She was a black lab, labby, she was just truly the best.
Speaker 4:That was the name of our building technician, Labby.
Speaker 2:Labby yeah.
Speaker 4:Wow, did you ever think of your dog? He's gone and so is she?
Speaker 2:I think he's still alive, oh, okay.
Speaker 3:No one works here. Okay, all right.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:That came full circle.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, there we go, dogs, dogs, but yeah. So a lot of our weekend was like dog sitting, funny enough, and we saw josh's grandfather, which was great. Um, he gave us the verner's, which is the classic detroit soda. John's drinking a verner's right now yeah ginger, ale the original ginger soda, yeah and it's like people will say it works wonders, it, it tastes delicious, it's medicinal.
Speaker 1:Soothes the stomach. Yeah, Soul, the stomach all of it, the soul, very much so.
Speaker 2:Burners of the soul. But yeah, that's really what we did. We saw some of Josh's friends, which was really fun. Not a ton of people were around for 4th of July. Or a lot of people were with their families.
Speaker 4:A lot of people were with their families.
Speaker 2:A lot of people, like, are recovering from surgery oh yeah, we josh's brother who had a surgery, and then his, our friend adam had a surgery um, so yeah, we hopefully they're recovering.
Speaker 4:We saw josh's brother for a bit and he seemed okay yeah, we watched baseball yeah, because you know I love baseball, you do love baseball as much as you love football.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's America's pastime. I just love it. Well, talk about just an uncomfortable uniform. Whenever I watch baseball, I'm always just thinking the uniforms are straight up hideous. Well, they have belts.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and like buttons and the pants are cut in such an unflattering way.
Speaker 1:It just looks really uncomfortable to me.
Speaker 2:Most of them are like light gray or white, like nearly skin tight pants on like grown men. It's like this is a joke.
Speaker 1:Grown ass, men yeah like terrible. Do you like baseball?
Speaker 4:I have a soft spot for baseball. Sure, I like going to the games. It's like a good atmosphere. I like smelling the spot for baseball. Sure, I like going to the games, it's like a good atmosphere. I like smelling the corn and roasting in the field. The corn roasting in the field, you know, catch a fly ball. That's pretty cool. It's long but I guess it's shorter now. And the Tigers. You know, I feel like I have a lot of nostalgia around baseball. It's a summer sport. You watch it outside. The games are so long. I would bring my video game magazine when I was 10 and read it and then my dad would be like watch the game, but it's whatever.
Speaker 4:I'm not the biggest sports fan. Basketball is my favorite to watch In terms of the mechanics of the sport.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Do you?
Speaker 3:like baseball no yeah, it's so boring it's yeah. Next question moving on.
Speaker 1:It is I like.
Speaker 2:I like with a wall like with my kids, you know like that's fun to just like hit a ball, you know not.
Speaker 1:the less organized, I feel like, the better. Yeah, like playing catch Great.
Speaker 2:We were just talking about this how neither of us like really like to sit down and watch sports, but like playing something is fun, yeah, like tossing the baseball around is great yeah. And going to the game.
Speaker 1:I'm probably good for like one or two games a year to go to Like they are. There is something to be said about being at the ballpark.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But I just. It's hard. It's such a long season too, there's so many games.
Speaker 2:It's like there's just so much. Yeah, it's like there's so many games. Like do you get?
Speaker 1:that invested in each individual game. And then when your team is terrible, which I grew up lean years- with the Brewers They've never won a World Series. It's like there are certain seasons where you're into the all-star break and they're completely out of it.
Speaker 3:Who's going to?
Speaker 1:watch the next 80 to 90 games.
Speaker 2:I know they still have like 80 games.
Speaker 1:It's wild Wait how long is the baseball season? 182 games.
Speaker 4:That sounds right. 82, I thought.
Speaker 3:How many season 182 games.
Speaker 4:That sounds right, 162 or 82. How many days?
Speaker 2:are in a year 365.
Speaker 1:Not enough for baseball games, the games.
Speaker 4:It's crazy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, wild Anyway.
Speaker 2:Josh was just saying how he can't wait to like he would love to have a kid one day to throw a ball around in the backyard.
Speaker 1:That's great. That's tons of fun to do that. I think that would be so like that's fun to do with my kids. Yeah, and teach them to catch. Oh wait, you know what speaking of do grinders and pop-ups, yeah, yeah I wonder what you'll think of this, josh's friend.
Speaker 2:We saw josh's friend mark anderson shout out to mark when we were in west bloomfield and we were kind of 30 and then 29 or 30 at the brink of 30, he started just like popping out kids, yeah, totally but he, um, we were like so, josh and I, they moved back to michigan from philadelphia.
Speaker 2:So, okay, oh, philadelphia, sarah's from there you go yeah um shout out to sarah um, and we were like so is it like so nice like moving to a new place? Like do you feel like you get like built-in friends, like with your the kids, who your kids socialize with the parents? And he was like it's like pretty awkward, honestly, like it can be going to these hangouts like he doesn't find like oh great, I have this like new set of friends. I'm curious what you think of that.
Speaker 1:Do you feel like like you go someplace because your kids are invited, yeah, and so then you?
Speaker 2:befriend. You have this new set of whatever is proxy, even the right way you meet other parents.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then it's like built-in friends go time.
Speaker 3:It's not a one-for-one I'll tell you that much I mean, I think we've been extraordinarily lucky.
Speaker 1:I think so many, so many of the parents of the kids that we've been introduced to, yeah, vis-a-vis my kids have been great and and we like to see them. We love to socialize with them yeah and it's great when these families get together and you know they're on the basketball team together, I but I don't think it always works that way yeah, and there's certain families that you just will get along with, just like people in general that you'll just get along with better like your parents, I don't think it's.
Speaker 1:I don't think it's a given, though that you're going to be like minded, or I just don't think it's always that easy.
Speaker 2:It's like I could see myself at one of these barbecues locking eyes with a potential friend and your kids don't happen to befriend their kids. Yeah, they might like the kids where you're like. I had no interest in being friends with that set of parents.
Speaker 1:Right. And now those are the play dates we're seeing or yeah, or the flip side, or maybe you already said this your kids like some kid who's like fine or whatever, but then their parents are like yeah.
Speaker 2:I could see myself being really eager to force my kid to be friends with the one I wanted to hang out with Just bulldoze into this kid.
Speaker 1:I'm going to talk to him. I'm going to have like a slideshow of how great that kid is. This is the child you're going to hang out with. I'm going to need these people to be my friends.
Speaker 2:Well, because so many of our friends have left Chicago. It's so hard and I'm like to see.
Speaker 1:I think it's been a nice influx, though, of social opportunities for especially as my kids have gotten older. It's been a nice influx of meeting new people, and sometimes it's exhausting, because I'm just not that good at like remembering people's names all the time, and so you have like a meeting with somebody once or twice and then you don't see them for a while and then you see them again and it's like, oh, who is this person?
Speaker 1:But I think it's been nice, as my kids have gotten a little bit older, to develop more relationships and have more people to hang out with Totally when some of your like maybe close friends, like my close friends don't live in the city yeah, yeah, um, and I see them infrequently yeah, totally but it's not a guarantee not built in.
Speaker 2:I feel that for sure. I mean it's like co-workers not built in not built in not built in at. Certainly not. But then you tour my coworkers and it's tough over here. Well, I remember. Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 1:I remember working with you and right before I shared this, that sir was like can you like be normal with your, can you like talk to these people? Because at my previous job I was, I was, was like I don't really like any of these people, I don't wanna like and I would give them nothing.
Speaker 1:I would really like tell them nothing and you know, sarah was like you don't have to hang out with these people, could you just be like a human with them and, just like I was, like no, I don't want to do that see, it's so funny that we became friends, because I have the opposite problem, where it's like you can keep some things a mystery.
Speaker 2:Yeah, these people don't need to know every last detail of your life. I mean new employees. I'm telling them my entire life story. Who I don't like at the office? I mean crazy. That's like no filter.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I was on the opposite end, so like what is the psychology there? I don't know, but I had to really push myself to be like okay, I'm gonna say hi to this person.
Speaker 2:No, but like, yeah, not that extreme, but you know, maybe share a little bit of something about the weekend was there like a fear that they would get carried away no, I think I just didn't like them you didn't like them yeah, I think it would.
Speaker 1:I just knew very quickly like these are not people I wanted to socialize with yeah but I think I just took it to an extreme. Yeah, um, I remember two weeks before I got married to sarah that's when my manager at the time found out why I was taking off was for my wedding and she didn't straight up get married and she didn't find out from me.
Speaker 1:She found out from somebody else who was just like well, yeah, he's taking off this much time because he's getting married and he's going to. And she was like he's getting married, that's how like closed off.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:Okay, was like he's getting married.
Speaker 2:That's how like.
Speaker 3:Closed off it was wow, okay, interesting. So what does it say about me? Unabomber?
Speaker 2:yeah, ted because all sides point this guy to unabomber. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I definitely, I mean obviously I work by myself now, so there's no one to really do that with and that's probably a blessing in many ways.
Speaker 2:But yeah, yeah, but I have consultations for like even my emdr consultation. I have tried, like with sherry, who's my consultant, who's great um, to share a little bit about my life and I can tell she's like very boundaried and she's sort of like great. You know, like that's about all she'll give me and I'm like that's nice, all right, we're moving on from that.
Speaker 1:I'm getting married.
Speaker 2:At the end of the kind of like oh, I can't meet because I'm getting married.
Speaker 3:She's like no it's just a head nod.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but it's very professional. It's good, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Anyway, it's a good boundary.
Speaker 2:It is a good boundary. Speaking of boundaries we're not talking about boundaries.
Speaker 1:Today we'll talk. What are we talking?
Speaker 2:about today. We thought we'd do an intro to mindfulness, and we're calling it an intro because, like mindfulness is such a crucial part of both of the therapy work, both of our therapy work, I would say so we're going to talk about it a ton ongoing. So like we'll just intro it today and kind of talk about our experience of it a little bit now, but also, like you know, how we got introduced to it and maybe, maybe, fell in love with it.
Speaker 2:I know I have fallen in love with it, but yeah, that's what we're going to talk about. Any like first blush thoughts?
Speaker 1:I mean, I think the thing that a lot of people think about with mindfulness is meditation yeah which makes sense. Yeah, and I think, uh, as I've learned about it more, it's really more about contacting the present. We can certainly meditate mindfully and we can really like embody mindfulness and a lot of if not everything we try to do, so totally that's a really good distinction. Tenets of mindfulness right because we can be mindfully meditating, and we can just be mindful right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like there's a type of meditation that is mindfulness meditation. Now I almost like want to look up the definition of meditation, which I don't know. I don't have my phone.
Speaker 2:Oh, I do have my phone handy I can look it up, I'm the producer producer yeah, keep talking while I look this up so, yeah, like I like that distinction Also because I do daily do different type of meditation. That's not mindfulness meditation, called transcendental meditation or Vedic meditation and yeah, it's like from the Veda, the Indian Veda. Yeah, but I love mindfulness and I do some mindfulness meditation, but also like practice mindfulness in action and everyday life.
Speaker 1:I mean, I think that the I don't want to say easiest way, cause it's not easy I think the gateway into mindfulness is practicing it through meditation with our patients, right, totally, or clients. We, you know, we'll go through these meditations with them. Yeah we, you know we'll go through these meditations with them as a way to help them be less judgmental and take a beginner's mind and nonjudgmental stance and really fully participate. Or you know, all of those different like tenants that come up Totally.
Speaker 2:Totally yeah, and like I mean, maybe that's did you get it, josh?
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, tell us. Am I interrupting your train of thought?
Speaker 2:No, tell us.
Speaker 4:We could look up mindfulness too.
Speaker 2:I actually have that definition in my noggin oh meditation.
Speaker 4:Do you want the whole AI summary? Sure.
Speaker 2:How long do you?
Speaker 4:want me to talk for.
Speaker 2:You could cap it at 10 minutes. Wow okay, kidding.
Speaker 4:Okay, I'll go for two. Meditation is a mind-body practice that involves focusing attention on something such as an object, word, phrase or breath to minimize distracting or stressful thoughts or feelings. Should I keep going?
Speaker 2:I mean, is there more, or is it more of the same? I feel like that's probably good, okay, totally okay. I like that, like one anchor of attention to like still the mind and the system, the nervous system, thoughts, emotions, sensations what was the last part of that in terms of distressing thoughts?
Speaker 1:could you read that?
Speaker 4:yeah, yeah, um dot dot dot to minimize distracting or stressful thoughts or feelings to minimize them.
Speaker 2:That's really interesting not eliminate right to quiet them, quiet them, quiet them To quiet them Soften the blow. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Which is interesting because, from an act perspective, right, acceptance and commitment therapy, and they don't use mindfulness when they're doing the six, the hexaflex, they say it's contacting the present moment. Yes, so I think there's a difference there, because it's almost when you want to contact the present person. You almost want to be with those distressing thoughts more and expose yourself to them.
Speaker 2:Well, that's the paradoxical thing about and again, meditation and mindfulness have many similarities. There's mindfulness, meditation, but they're different. But like and I always say this, I feel like with my clients, like almost every like healing thing is like, paradoxical in some way, like with mindfulness especially, like often when you really notice something, it becomes less bothersome and we tend to intuit the opposite, that like or have you know, assume the opposite, that if I notice my anger I'll just be consumed with anger, and often the avoidance of anger will consume, will cause it to consume.
Speaker 2:You know, if I press down the beach ball in the water, it will come up with greater force. So it's like the noticing of things does quiet them, but the trick is to not be attempting to quiet them. That's the paradox that's so hard. So with meditation it's like you don't try to still the mind, you focus on an anchor and there's an allowing of the mind to do what it does and it tends to still. So it's the intentions often are kind of different than the result typically, and the idea is to let go of result, you know, in so many ways is like be in the process or mindfulness. Is that present moment, nonjudgmental awareness. So whether you're meditating or you're eating breakfast, you could do either mindfully and in doing that you're non-judgmentally noticing the experience of the present moment, sounds, sights, taste, your senses.
Speaker 2:A lot of the time smells, smells yeah, so, yeah, it's like I mean I love I don't know why I love that. It's like a paradoxical thing, but I think there's such like a beauty to that. You know, to notice things, making them less bothersome. It's so freeing and it's such a simple idea. It's not easy but it's simple, you know, and in so much in like EMDR, there's just so much noticing. That is the mechanism of change. It's like, you know, revisit this memory and notice the experiences that come, and even, you know, like with the thought challenging, in that type of model, it's like if you challenge a certain thought, then you really spend time noticing.
Speaker 2:Just notice that, and then you do a set, and it's nice, I think. You allow yourself to just lightly put your attention on things and they deactivate, which I love.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm like rambling now, but I'm in love with mindfulness. I think it's so great.
Speaker 1:For yourself and for your people. Yeah, totally.
Speaker 2:Totally.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I was do you have thoughts? Thoughts no, I was making sure it was both yeah, yeah, but um, I wrote down on my little paper here because I was like reviewing my thoughts in my head before we started. I know, for me I think my first real intro to mindfulness was dbt, as, like core, mindfulness is one of the modules and this now I'm forgetting the skills- the what and the how the what in the house skills yeah so that's dbt.
Speaker 2:It does such a great job of always like breaking things down into like biteable parts bite size, biteable I like biteable, it's biteable.
Speaker 1:I'm like rusty. It is a biteable therapy. It's Biteable, I'm like rusty, it is a Biteable therapy.
Speaker 2:It's a Biteable therapy. But yeah, the what and how skills, the what skills are.
Speaker 1:What are the what skills?
Speaker 2:Yeah, observe, describe, participate are the what skills?
Speaker 1:Maybe, I think, yeah, Observe describe, participate, and then the how skills are.
Speaker 2:Non-judgmental, Non-judgmentally mindfully.
Speaker 1:One, mindfully One mindfully non-judgmentally. Did you say participate?
Speaker 2:I think participate is a what skill.
Speaker 1:Is it a? What skill?
Speaker 2:And a how skill. It's like the what skills are what you do, the how skills are how you do it. One mindfully, non-judgmentally effectively.
Speaker 1:What's the last one? Non-judgmentally effectively. What's the last one? Oh, that sounds familiar.
Speaker 2:Yeah, effectively that might be it okay. So yeah, it's like you know, observe being the first one. It's like just observe your experience, like wordlessly and then describe is like add words, but non-judgmental ones right and then participate. It's like throw yourself into action and one mindfully do one thing at a time, with awareness of the experience not just really no judgments and then effectively do what works yeah, do what works, don't make it worse deal with the situation you're in, not the one you wish you were in right which I always love.
Speaker 1:That's a quote. Yeah, I've always come. Yep, it's effectively yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so yeah, I feel like, and like dbt has so many like, almost like they're like games, even like of mindfulness practices, like may draw something mindfully and do this, which is a great like on ramp. I feel like to mindfulness, and then I wonder what you'd say like with act, what the difference, if there are any, like in the way they discuss mindfulness to DBT.
Speaker 1:I think there's still the threads specifically about nonjudgmental stance for sure, really trying to embody whatever we're noticing. It's not a wrong thing, it's not a right thing, it's just. This is what's coming.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:Even like when we get distracted in our mindfulness practice right Cause, a lot of times people will think they're doing something wrong, or when we when we engage in a meditation, it's that's just another. It's not. It's not. I was distracted, yes, and that's that's what was happening in that moment, so I think it's really. It's just whatever's unfolding. However, it's unfolding.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And really being in tune with the private events that are coming up. The thoughts the emotions, really trying to tap into those.
Speaker 2:Yeah and right. The noticing of them is the holding space.
Speaker 1:right, right, there isn't a lot right exactly, and if you can embody contacting that and not get so wrapped up in what's going on, then you're transitioning more into that observer self yeah and the self is context type of space where, where you're saying, okay, this is an event, it's content versus.
Speaker 1:You know, I'm larger than these emotions or these thoughts yeah, yes, yeah, you're making that space, yeah, yeah I never thought about it this way, but some a practitioner I worked with in the fellowship I was in used to say would always ask were you time traveling? Like what, was your mind going to the past or future? And it was just such a cool way of saying it totally like were you time traveling? I never thought of it that way, but it's like, yeah, that's what your mind is doing.
Speaker 2:It's time traveling it's going to the future.
Speaker 1:It's going, and that takes you out of the practice yeah I just never said it that way.
Speaker 2:I was like I'm gonna steal that yeah, I like that, like it's a vivid thing we all do in our mind, or even I travel to, like alternate dimensions of like fantasy for sure yeah yeah, you know, I'm curious.
Speaker 2:For some reason, this popped up in my head. I wonder what you do and I can talk about. What comes up for me is like I do have some experiences with clients where they'll ask you know, like, why do this? Like what's the real point to it? How is this going to help me? If I like meditate a or if I do things mindfully, what happens? What would you say?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I think it's a large question. I think it's it's fair to have skepticism about it because you know there's a lot of research coming out right now that's saying that you know, actually mindfulness harms people, right? And so in the sense of like um. It just maybe doesn't have as much possibly therapeutic value for everyone as because it caught fire like in the eighties and nineties and things like that and um, through the John Cobb, it's ends of it all and things like that.
Speaker 1:Um, but it can create more like turmoil within people and you know, whatever that's, this is an intro to it, but I think the point of it is to be more intentional of, and be more aware of, what's coming up for us. So what is the point of this? Well, if we're really struggling in our lives, if we can slow down, if we can really contact, moment to moment, what's coming up for us yeah we can be more effective and more intentional in those moments, because those are the only moments we can make change right.
Speaker 1:So if we're yeah you can't change the past. If you're really struggling with your past, then we have to bring you to here. And what is the struggle here in this moment? Or if you're really fearful about the future or whatever it's, that's not here yet. So what are we doing in this moment? To kind of so I think it's guiding people into this is the moment where you're gonna make change.
Speaker 1:And so again, mindfulness, I think it's also. I think people question more about the meditation than they do about the idea of being in the present. From my experience, People are more skeptical about the meditation aspect of it Like what's the? Point of this. Why am I doing a body scan or this and that? Well, that's a vehicle for you to get more in tune with what's coming up for you in the present moment, and we can get in touch with the present moment in other ways.
Speaker 3:So if you're very skeptical about meditation, let's put that aside and try other ways of you participating, yeah, but I think the overarching thing is we want you to be more in tune yeah, with everything.
Speaker 1:Yeah, in your intentionality, your feelings, your thoughts, all those things that are coming out yeah, I kind of rambled there, but no, no, I, I, I hear you.
Speaker 2:Um, I think I've even had some, maybe clients with more anxiety at times, question like I don't know that I really want to be present and which is fair totally, and or it's like why are you asking me to notice my feelings?
Speaker 2:like they're bad feelings and and these are some basic things. But it's like why are you asking me to notice my feelings? Like they're bad feelings and these are some basic things. But it's like I almost think my approach, like with mindfulness, can change like person to person and different times in my journey with mindfulness and I feel like sometimes it's like I'll more directly answer that question and sometimes it's like more experiential, like you know, like if you practice, let's see what you do.
Speaker 2:Experience. You know, like maybe let's not know if it's going to serve you and see, because often, like when I'll have clients like notice where they felt the most alive or happy, usually the feeling is presence. It's usually like clarity and emptiness and openness and that's the feeling we're kind of cultivating. The open space is not even a feeling, it's like a state that we're cultivating that's very spacious and, like Eckhart Tolle would say, like that is where happiness begins and ends. You know, in the present moment and all your problems exist in the past and future. And if you, really, how would he say it? Do you remember, josh, how he would say like get really present, go deep into presence.
Speaker 2:You know, like he'll just say like be present. Like in any problem. He would say just get present. And it will be gone and I find that so powerful and when I've remembered to do that, it's completely true, it's like really tune in, to even like what the problem of this very moment is. There usually isn't one, there's just something to do, something to be with, something to accept or something to do, you know, and it's not really a problem when you're really, really present.
Speaker 2:And it's like I find I do have a more spiritual approach to it now and that's why doing that internal family systems work lends well to this, because it is a little bit of a spiritual approach. The wise mind and the self is like source, a little bit like a divine part of you. So, yeah, it's like that's where you get in tune with what's innately spacious and observing and able to kind of handle anything. And yeah, I think it's like sometimes with clients we'll talk about like well, what if you're not present? What happens right, we'll look at like the opposite, you know, what do you feel, what is your experience like? But sometimes it is more like let's try it, let's do an exercise with it and really notice what you feel.
Speaker 2:And then some people do are just on board with this concept of like oh yeah, the present moment is where I should be, you know yeah um, maybe there isn't even much thought to it, but yeah, it's like presence or they've experienced like a friend being present with them when they're talking and it feels good, it feels like home I don't't know Like feels right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that sometimes the maybe message gets lost or not even said with the patients that I work with, in the sense of it's unrealistic to be mindful all the time, so we need to just let go of that rope because I think that where it causes more distress for people is when they strive too much. Right Like non-striving is one of those tenants within mindfulness where they strive to be so mindful all of the time that it actually just exacerbates more frustration and more it's like I can't do this.
Speaker 1:I can't do this. I'm constantly. I need to be more. You know, like where it's like they're going to such an extreme and it's like, well, nobody can do it, nobody, you're going to such an extreme and it's like, well, nobody can do it. Yeah, nobody can be mindful all the time. That's not what we're going for.
Speaker 4:And so.
Speaker 1:I think explicitly putting some of those guardrails in on it where it's like this is going to be frustrating. And what's the point? Well, maybe we're being more present in our life. If we're only present 25% of the time, then maybe we're upping it to 50. You know like I think like putting some because it's just it's not attainable to be present all of the time.
Speaker 1:And so I think that sometimes also, where not only skepticism but then it turns into frustration, because maybe we as practitioners talk about it a lot, and then it's like, well, or they view it as something, that's not what we're saying, like you know where it's like oh, they view it as something that's not what we're saying yeah where it's like. Oh, I gotta be like present with my feelings all the time and I have to be sitting with these feelings all the time.
Speaker 1:Sometimes I have to think about the future and it's like exactly right right, yeah, totally so sometimes that's also just like a psycho ed yeah, component to when we are introducing it or finding you know, people that are skeptical or willful. Yeah, it's like.
Speaker 2:This isn't what we're saying right, yeah, and deepak chopra will say that like, very plainly like, and sometimes the mind is needed elsewhere you know and the stillness of the mind is still so essential in general and like that's where the real self comes forth.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's why I like those flexible awareness. Even though a lot of people don't like those mindfulness practices, I love those Because it is a little. Usually we give people an anchor to focus on.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Just like that definition that Josh read. And with that one we're kind of saying you're going to choose an anchor, you're going to let your mind wander, and the practice is really learning how to bring your mind back to something, to anchor it to, um, which I think a lot of people struggle with, because they come into meditation or a mindful meditation thinking I just have to focus on something and find it right away, and that's kind of saying, well, let's just let the mind wander. And that's important too. Right, like daydreaming is important, like a lot of things can come from that.
Speaker 1:And that can be really restorative and creative for people, and it's the act of noticing when your mind is wandering and then bringing it back to something. That's a mindful practice.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yes, yeah, and the flexible awareness really gets at that paradox where you're using an anchor to notice your experience and if the anchor changes, you also allow it to change. It's a very dynamic way to practice mindfulness, like let the anchor change. Like let the anchor change in in, uh, transcendental mindfulness or transcendental meditation or Vedic meditation, you do like a mantra. It's mantra meditation as your anchor and you get in. You know your teacher will give you a mantra and it's private and you don't tell anyone. And and that's what you use each time you meditate.
Speaker 2:And I remember my meditation teacher saying like when you use the mantra and then you notice the experience of like really deep presence come up, you let the mantra go and he's like the mantra is a vehicle and like a car you wouldn't bring your car into your office Like it gets you to the office.
Speaker 2:So it's like when I get to that deep presence, you let go and you just be in the stillness and just like raw, experience it. And like I have meditations where I don't get there, but when I do get to that deep presence, that like mindful place, when I get up from the meditation, like there is a clarity that really lasts and feels, and it's not perfect, it's not like I'm completely and totally present, but it's like it's a clarity that lasts usually for the day where I just feel more like myself, more like purely myself, and there's like my thoughts are less like noisy and I almost like speak my mind more and I overthink less. And again, not perfect, I'm still doing that stuff a little bit, but it really does like clear you in this like felt sense kind of way you know like it gets rid of some of the noise.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I really I value that, but even still, even though I've had such rich experiences of that, I really have to push myself to sit down and meditate every day. I mean every day.
Speaker 2:It is a practice. Talk about like pushing yourself. I I don't like wake up feeling excited to do it, even though it's just like laying down and noticing it's a pretty pleasant thing. But I still like my body and mind want to just like go, go, go, put the podcast on, do the thing, have my coffee, you know, even though I really value it so much yeah it's a tricky thing yeah, I think it's hard for me to do like more formal meditations.
Speaker 1:I I try to practice it more in like action, so like I try to embody more of the participate yeah, and just try to like whatever I'm in, really try to like be in it yeah um, and like one thing a day, like really like try to be in that thing yeah, if I can one mindfully right yeah, because I feel like with the meditation it's hard for me to not have my mind wander, but also I just feel like it's not sometimes a strong enough anchor for me to like
Speaker 2:get out of my thoughts so totally and that that's what the beauty of like those practices, like participate. It's like, okay, you don't want to sit down on the cushion and meditate like in the cross-legged position. Fair enough. Like when you take a shower, when you wash your hair, can you just wash your hair Right, feel your fingers and your scalp and notice the smell and like even that is so valuable for the rest of your day?
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because you're like tuning into the self you know, to the presence, to the spaciousness, like that is the self, and letting go and to even let yourself see yourself do that.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Gives you like access to it that. I do think lingers, think lingers. But you know, what's funny is like I still have people I work with or even like people I just like know that are very anti-mindfulness and anti-meditation for sure yeah, yeah and can feel really bothered by it yeah, I think there's.
Speaker 1:So there's a book that I read once called Mick Mindfulness, and it was more about like American, for sure, but more like Western.
Speaker 2:Co-opting of mindfulness?
Speaker 1:Yeah exactly and kind of packaging it and selling it.
Speaker 2:Totally the corporate world right.
Speaker 1:Yes, I think that you know there.
Speaker 1:there was a lot of interesting things about that read, but one of the things that really stuck was the idea of bringing mindfulness to people to almost minimize systemic issues that are going on, to place them more on just the person and say, well, if you were just more mindful, because this is more of a you problem don't focus on yeah, don't focus on the company or the your rights the structure, or yeah, this is not a systemic thing, this is a, so we're gonna have mindfulness teachers come in and practitioners, because you know everybody's high stress here and, instead of addressing the systemic stress, it's about the individual stress, and so it's on you as an individual to kind of like figure this out so yeah I think there is a lot of at least in different ways resistance to mindfulness and maybe when it's certainly gotten away from and how it's I don't want to say weaponized, but how it's just like used totally I think it can be weapon
Speaker 2:I mean, I think, even therapy can be used like that in the corporate setting. Yeah, you're like, oh, we have these therapists or you get free therapy. And it's like if you're stressed, just go to therapy. And sometimes it's like if you're stressed, you might have an unreasonably stressful job or a boss who's unreasonable.
Speaker 1:Yeah right, or systemic things that just we're not going to address. Right and these are things that really need to be looked at right and these are things that really need to be looked at.
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally yeah, that makes so much sense. Um, and you know that's attention to like, because I really so believe in like the power of the individual and how you relate to things being like unlocking so much change for you. And you know, like living in the world we live in, it's like it's so important to notice like systems and and how they affect people and where people don't have control, and and honoring like the frustration of that and that the answer is not always just like still the mind you know right and it's not, but I.
Speaker 2:This is where I defend mindfulness, because when you still the mind and there still is a real problem in the reality, the mind will know that to me, the mind, the self, will never let go of the real reality. It'll just tune you into it.
Speaker 2:So like stilling the mind in a really truly shitty corporate setting often will give you this like power to make a decision to leave or start a union or whatever you do. So that's where I really do believe in it kind of to the core. But I get what they're saying with that mcmindfulness that it can be promoted to sort of obscure other injustices and problems systemically. You know, you just, you just meditate and get right with yourself because you're really the issue. Yeah, did you have another article?
Speaker 1:No, that was the one that was like coming to mind.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay, okay, I thought for some reason.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, no, there was other. There was another one that I had read that was saying how mindfulness was. I think the word was harm, but it was like it does some harm to certain individuals.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know people with psychosis. It tends to be the internal stimuli tend to be way too overwhelming to attend to, so it's not so helpful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it might be contraindicated for certain people, but again, I'm not. Is it the meditation part of it? Or how else can you get people and work with them and be flexible as a practitioner to engage in mindfulness, because certainly meditation is not the only way to do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And meditation is really helpful for so many people.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Even if that's, you know, practicing it once a week with a therapist and not embodying it every single day yeah, totally, I'm even thinking too.
Speaker 2:It's like I work so much with body image and like mindfulness of your body as a the, like your sense of your body can be so healing? Right, because, like you know, body dysmorphia, all that it's like based in judgment, and it's like what if you experience your body for a second instead of judge it and conceptualize it?
Speaker 2:you know what if, instead of like looking at your legs and saying like I hate my legs, they're so, you know whatever. Like you put lotion on and you feel your legs and you feel your skin and you don't make a judgment or even a description, you just experience it?
Speaker 4:I don't like my feet.
Speaker 2:They're cold my niece said that one time she goes I don't like my feet, they're cold, they're cold, which is like that, really like bended my mind, because I was like I don't like my feet, like they're ugly is what someone would usually say, yeah, but like as a little girl, she was just like they're ugly is what someone would usually say, yeah, but like as a little girl, she was just like they're cold, they make me feel cold. They make me feel cold. I don't like them. So cute, they're cold, but yeah, I mean. Josh, you meditate.
Speaker 4:I do. Yeah, I've fallen off the wagon a little bit. Sometimes I feel like you'll go in and you'll do usually 20 to 25 minutes and I'll have the idea I'm like I'll get a little more work done and I'll make the bed and then I'll do 10 minutes because that's nice and that's less overwhelming. And then today I sat down and literally the second I sat down you came out of your room.
Speaker 3:I was like all right time for exes.
Speaker 4:But then maybe I do think I do a lot of. The shower is a great example. Like sometimes I won't even listen to music in the shower, like if you're with a client and it's too loud, or like yeah, excuses were maybe. I'm like waiting a minute or two for something I'll. I'll really try to like do all these mini meditations anytime and these little like cracks of life, and I think that's helpful.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 4:And yeah, so it's on my I feel like it's like weaving in and out of my life the mindfulness Like it's generally on my mind. It's on my mind enough that I'm like, oh, I'm not being so mindful. And I'll have that thought I think daily, or multiple times a day, or like oh, I want to take a moment to be mindful, but meditating is great, I don't know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what do you feel like you get out of it when you're in the practice, or even when you're only a little one.
Speaker 4:Well, sometimes it almost feels like because if you're a fan of this pod, you'll know that I don't really do edibles anymore engage in THC and I think sometimes, when you've meditated, it almost feels like you just smoked a joint, Totally. Like your senses feel intense. Yes, and smoke to joint like like your senses feel intense, yes, and you're kind of like out of your head and like maybe music sounds really good and you're hearing all the parts.
Speaker 4:So you feel like the wood on your feet and just like there's this purity to yeah everything and sometimes I feel like, because sometimes I'll meditate outside and then I'll come in and almost even that like coming in through the door with this like presence, I come in and I'm that like coming in through the door with this like presence. I come in and I'm like, oh, wow, it's so beautiful in here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yes, you see, it's like seeing. Yeah, For the first time. I mean I remember that learning TM. The first few times I did it I was like, oh, I feel high, Like in a good way Like this, like euphoria, and I slept like I'd never slept like whoa.
Speaker 2:And that's two times a day, 20 minutes, six hours apart. And the second one really gets you there where you're like whoa, I'm walking in a cloud and everything's beautiful and it's so wonderful. And I will say, sadly, it does wear off when you do it more and more, you kind of get used to that.
Speaker 4:I think, yeah, I used to like really think it was like crack, and now it's almost like. Well, it's another skill I have, like yeah, it's nice yeah, like when you first discover coffee it's like holy shit. And now it's like I just kind of like need to do this to be okay.
Speaker 2:It's like maybe how I feel about meditation a little bit now, like I, know that, I know I like do it, because I somehow know, I'm like if I don't do it I'll probably have worse mental health, but I do it and I just do it.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's awesome. My sister though. Have you talked to my sister about meditation? She doesn't love meditation.
Speaker 2:Right have you, Because you've probably talked to her more recently.
Speaker 4:She and I haven't talked.
Speaker 2:Oh, but maybe she mentioned it once, but not much.
Speaker 4:I know because she's extremely anxious.
Speaker 2:She's been on the pod. Shout out to.
Speaker 4:Alex, shout out to Alex. She kind of says anytime she sits down to meditate, her anxious inner voice just gets so loud and she'll immediately start judging herself for not being able to be present. And she's like it's almost worse than if she wasn't even sure, like she feels, like she's so bad at it that anytime she sits down to do it, she just like gets more anxious, which yeah. You know she's entitled to feel that way.
Speaker 2:Totally, totally. Yeah, and I can't speak for anyone else in terms of like, when you slow down, what is that first experience like with the mind? You know, because maybe for each of us it might be different, like I definitely have. I mean, my most common experience when I slow down and start to meditate, is I just like straight up, start thinking about random shit. Like I'll be like, oh my god, remember that conversation I had yesterday. I loved that conversation, that was so fun.
Speaker 2:I'll like pretend I'm in it and then I'll think about like, oh, I want to make that dentist appointment and I do that so much of the time and then I have to be like my meditation teacher used to say like at some point you'll go, oh yeah, I'm meditating and then you'll come to the mantra, right, and that's okay, he, he's like it to be to. To meditate without distraction is like to go into the ocean and not get wet.
Speaker 2:You know, it's part of it. You wade through, you allow completely and you let the mantra just take you where it needs, to that day or whatever. But you know, like Deepak Chopra would say about that, like he even believes in like silence he talks a lot about not just meditation, but like silent retreats and and he's very funny the way he says like you know, be silent for a whole day. He's like a whole day is too long for a few hours. A few hours is too long for an hour.
Speaker 1:You know, like do what you can if an hour is too long, keep talking just forget about it just don't do it.
Speaker 2:An hour is the minimum yeah, if you can't do an hour you don't do it.
Speaker 2:He says 30 minutes twice a day is the minimum. But he's like what will happen is, you know, the mind will, will race and will like go and go and go and be hard and it will fight you and it will, and then the mind will tire and you have to like let it tire itself and then, when it tires, then will be the clarity and like he even talks about it more in the sense of like quantum mechanics, like you'll get to that place of like pure creation and you know, when you, when you stop the mental noise, all the things you want like unfold before you.
Speaker 2:Because you're not fighting yourself. Um, and he has this kafka quote that I like put on my closet door, that I'm obsessed with. That's like I it's a long quote, but it's sort of like you don't have to leave your house, you know, you just have to, you know, be in your house and quiet the mind. You don't have to quiet the mind, you just have to like sit still. You don't have to sit the mind, you just have to like sit still. You don't have to sit still, you just have to like be, and the world will like roll in ecstasy at your feet, like you will when you get out of your own way and quiet, like everything is open to you. And I know, when I hear things like that, some part of my soul just clicks into that, that that's so true that when it's quiet and you're not fighting yourself, the space is open. And really I base all my work with clients and my own work on myself, on that.
Speaker 2:Where in this place am I in my own way? When I'm mindful, I think that way. When I'm not mindful, I think this fucking assholes make up my life. Hell, you know like, or whatever, like this one problematic reality that I don't want to be here, this one doctor visit, this one issue with a friend, you know, is like ruining my life, you know. And really it's like mindfulness often helps you realize, like what is my mind doing with this reality. Yeah, so it's. I think it's great I'm such a pro mindfulness gal.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think there's so many pros to it. I think it's again where where I started with it, where, for me, it's the pro is, however, we can get people to be more present and contact the present, and that doesn't have to be meditation, though A lot of times that can be really useful for people, because if you're asking yourself some of those questions that you just brought up, that doesn't have to be questions that are coming up in a meditation. It could be you're about to lash out at your partner, or something like that, and if you can, just take that moment to really, oh I really want to lay in to my partner right now.
Speaker 1:I want to use some judgmental language. Okay, can I just maybe describe how I'm feeling. As opposed to that, that is a mindful moment. That's like being more present in your life right, Definitely. And how do we get people there? Sometimes it we have to bridge into. Let's just sit, We'll do some breath work. Right, that's like a way for us to get. Sorry, I hit the mic, I just like slap the mic, get out of my way.
Speaker 1:That's the bridge to well then, in real time, how are we going to do this right like? We're building this muscle through the meditative practice totally totally yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So we're, I mean we're team mindfulness pretty much team mindfulness although, like, we're saying that to you as individuals, not if you're like a ceo. That's toxic, yeah and we're anti re read mcmindfulness. Yeah, then you can just take a seat, but you know, not everything in mcmindfulness is.
Speaker 1:I think it's, it's great it's. It was thought provoking for me yeah way to, to view maybe things or the way that mindfulness is used in settings or contexts that maybe I'm not in all the time which was really useful to think about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally it's interesting. I always love a dissent.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Why not? Yeah, it should be doubt in everything, yeah, okay, well, we want to do a couple things, and maybe we're going to cut this part that I'm about to say out, but we want to maybe do a mindfulness practice and then talk about it, and we want to do how wise is it? Do we want to do both tonight?
Speaker 4:Let's do psychology.
Speaker 2:I have a book there that says doing psychotherapy and Josh always thought it said doing psychology.
Speaker 4:Well, first I thought it said dog psychology and I was like just starting to direct a documentary about pet psychics and I was like, oh my god, it's kismet we're meant to be. She has a dog psychology book. No wonder she liked my profile. And I was like, oh, it's not dog psychology, it's doing psychology.
Speaker 2:It was in the do it yourself session that's like literally, who would write doing psychology?
Speaker 4:I don't know a dong psychologist Doing psychology.
Speaker 1:When I went on my walk today. I always love when I pass one of those little libraries that people have in front of their house where people can take books or put books or whatever.
Speaker 2:Oh, the minis. Yeah, what did I call it? Little library?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, like whatever what did I call it? Little library?
Speaker 1:I yeah, yeah, like yeah, person, whatever, and the one I walked past you know I looked through just to see and sometimes there's so many books you can't tell yeah but it had what appeared to be and I should have stopped and grabbed it, but I didn't because that made me laugh so much that I was like I don don't want to ruin this. It had in it either a book or a pamphlet that said blogging frustration, and I don't know why that made me crack up.
Speaker 2:How does trade blog out your?
Speaker 4:frustration, or is it?
Speaker 1:frustration with your blogging.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, I don't know what it was but just the word blogging alone would have made me laugh. It's such an early aughts word. Yes, I love it, it almost made me think of those yellow for dummies books like blogging for dummies?
Speaker 1:Yeah, but it was like when your blog is really frustrating. This pamphletlet's gonna get you through the really tough time it made me laugh so hard. Oh my god anyway, that was doing psychology yeah, that's the best part of those libraries.
Speaker 2:It's like seeing the books in there oh yeah, I remember like often it'll be like five like dan brown books or like whatever, like some bestseller. And then I remember I was saw one where it was like fuko was in there. I'm like who lives on this block? Like that's so cool.
Speaker 1:I mean a little humblebrag here. I am a volunteer at my son's school and my job is to kind of tidy up and cultivate the little library.
Speaker 3:Whoa Do I?
Speaker 1:do it Very rarely, but what I will say?
Speaker 3:is the times.
Speaker 1:I have done it there are things where you just kind of question yes, this is a library for anybody, I guess, but it's also on school grounds yeah so it's like this little library is kind of dedicated to like these kids, even though anybody could like go and look at it yeah and I say that because there's things like people will put like accounting workbooks in there totally, and it's like what yes, what use is that exactly?
Speaker 1:there was one that was like an lsat prep thing and it's like what especially for one on school grounds.
Speaker 2:Find a little library that's not next to a school right and because if you lsat prep, you shouldn't first go to the little library, right it?
Speaker 1:It's LSAT for babies, right and it's probably an LSAT prep book from 2010. Right, exactly or it's accounting for tax year 98.
Speaker 2:It's like this isn't helpful for anybody yeah. But it's basically just a dumping ground where people feel you know and who knows, I'm not getting rid of a book of maybe blogging frustration is coming up for someone I don't god, I love it anyway, how did? We get here, I don't know, I don't remember, I don't remember but you were saying we were gonna edit out this part.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah blogging frustration blogging frustration, oh you doing psychology doing psychology, doing a segment how wise is it to eat leftovers? So I think there's gonna be some interesting takes on this one, but yeah, really, we're not all on the same. Actually don't know, we might be on the same okay, I mean I'm a huge.
Speaker 1:I think there's a lot of wisdom. You're leftovers. I love leftovers. Interesting, tell us. I've really liked them pretty much my entire life.
Speaker 2:Wow yeah, do you like them more than like first overs, first overs, or like what is it Original?
Speaker 1:Original recipe, original recipe I think it depends. I think it depends on the dish. I do like the things that I like in leftover form soup for sure. Great flavor I feel like is more concentrated yeah um, it gets better. I think it gets better and it tastes better, I think, with soup unless it has a noodle in it one noodle, Ah, noodle in it.
Speaker 2:That's going to be a fluffy sucker, I think certain sauces, certain sauces also too A hearty sauce A hearty, like a bolognese or something like that can be better.
Speaker 1:Now, there are certain things that are just not better. I recognize that. And it's not wise, and I won't even put it in my fridge to even, yeah, french fries, french wise. And I won't even put it in my fridge to even, yeah, french fries, french fries. That was the first thing I was thinking.
Speaker 2:The worst, I don't think that is a wise decision to ever put that in your refrigerator, thinking you're gonna eat it. You can kind of revive them in the air fryer, but still still not good, you know that was the air fryers claim to fame, totally, and then it just never panned to be honest, the air fryer to me is a bit of a disappointment from how it was like marketed to us. Sure, like fry things as if they're deep fried in the air. It's like that thing is basically glorified.
Speaker 4:I mean right I think I think I've drank in the kool-aid yeah, you love it and I'm a little like press phone everything I'm saying in past tense. Right now I feel like I'm using the wrong grammar. Wait, wait, wait I heated up a spinach pie Thought. Oh my god, yeah, you're saying, but that spinach pie is good in the oven too. But it was better in the air fryer. Do you use?
Speaker 1:your air, I'm noticing. Do you have a Breville? Use your air, I'm noticing. Do you have a uh? Breville yeah yeah, so do you use the air fryer in there?
Speaker 2:that is an air fryer yeah versus the yeah.
Speaker 1:We don't have a drawer, a drawer one does the drawer make it taste different? No, I think the one in the breville is actually better than the drawer and I do think that there are certain things that like for my kids tater tots, crispier crispier, and I will give them that so I do think that that is a pro to the air fryer and even sometimes leftover pizza gets a little bit crispier if you do it in the air fryer versus just straight up oven yeah, but the truth is, and like I think, this is, but is it like fried food?
Speaker 1:no, unless you d it in oil which is what you're doing when you deep fry.
Speaker 2:So it's like we need to have respect.
Speaker 1:Respect.
Speaker 2:For the fact that what's making things crispy is the blessed oil.
Speaker 1:The oil yes.
Speaker 2:That we must like oil is king and that's making it happen.
Speaker 2:So the air fryer it's not magic. It's not going to take something with very little oil and make it taste like it is deep fried. It's not magic. It's not going to take something with very little oil and make it taste like it is deep fried. And now that I know that I can move forward with honesty with the air fryer and I think you're cooking some things in there that maybe do Like the spinach pie has a ton of natural fat in it Already has oil, or I'll drizzle things in oil, but I probably am doing that more, since you told me how that'll make things crispy.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So is it the air fryer, or is it how you're you?
Speaker 4:yeah, I don't know and me, or is it how you're relating to your air fryer? How is kelly?
Speaker 2:relating how you are my air fryer, I'll say this about the air wait, wait, wait.
Speaker 1:So basically we've just transitioned to have an air fryer.
Speaker 2:We should probably save that for a different because, or maybe but can I just get on this one point that, yeah, just in the mouth, cute let's let's really get down to brass tacks I put salmon in that air fryer and I like didn't put a drop of oil on it because salmon is fatty and whatever I put it in there and I'm like this is gonna be like it was dosed in oil and like gonna be like crispy, like crunch on my teeth. It was like I cooked it in the regular oven and I was like I don't even know if the cook time was shorter. I was like this is no different. And that's when I was really like okay, people are going to have to help me understand where this air fryer is superior and where it is the exact same thing as the oven. And I think it begins and ends with salmon. It's the same thing.
Speaker 2:And I cooked a chicken breast in there and it was a disaster. It like cooked it all wrong. So now I just use the oven for that. We roast. We roast chicken breast. I do it, sear it in a cast iron, which I also think is king. I think there's nothing that replaces that cast iron for like crispiness. Well, stainless steel is good for certain kinds of crispiness, but you know, hard, high heat cooking, gotta use that cast iron, get a nice brown, caramelized coat on it, then pop it in that we're gonna turn this into a cooking podcast.
Speaker 1:I'm about to start. That's your dream.
Speaker 2:This is my backdoor pilot to my cooking podcast your offshoot. Yeah, totally. How wise is food, how wise is kelly's cooking um so are we, so I don't know. I was giving back to leftovers. I was giving takes on leftovers.
Speaker 1:I like them I think it's extremely wise, and what's wise is knowing which doesn't work yeah, leftovers yeah and french fries is a great example of what doesn't work right.
Speaker 2:It's like I like some leftovers, but like I'm not huge on leftovers like I and and a big part of that is I'm not huge on the fridge and the flavor that it imparts and destroys while it sits in there.
Speaker 2:I just feel like everything tastes like the fridge, it's just, oh, it's like I don't like it. But then, like there's some things like I think leftover pasta can be good, even if I just pop it in the microwave the next day. And to have leftover pasta, to have pasta like three minutes from your mouth, like when you're craving it, versus like boiling the water and blah, blah, blah, that is nice you know, but it like I'm not the person like seeking leftovers. Very often I kind of like new food.
Speaker 1:So is it different? If you're cooking for the week, that's not a leftover.
Speaker 4:That's a leftover. It's a leftover. It is a leftover, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:Now, this is the luxury of my working from home.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So you still if you made like a big batch of soup that you really enjoyed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, soup, I love.
Speaker 1:Okay, you would still feel like it would taste like the fridge, like you're like, yeah, I'm going to have like soup Things that you can kind of boil will kind of get that flavor out of them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I don't tend to think soup is better the next day. I think it's still good. I don't tend to think it's better. What do I think is better next day?
Speaker 1:You don't think, flavors intensify.
Speaker 2:No, I do, but sometimes not in the way I want them to.
Speaker 1:Sometimes pot roast is really good, leftover too. Oh yes, that intensifies yeah anything braised. Yeah.
Speaker 2:You almost want to leave it in the fridge. Let it get to know itself and then cook it again.
Speaker 1:Exactly, cook it again.
Speaker 2:And you can kind of skim the fat off more easily. Oh yeah, that is one that is like it almost should be like that. Sometimes I weirdly think lasagna is really good leftover, because it's like-.
Speaker 3:I love it all.
Speaker 2:It gets more congealed or something in a way that's good.
Speaker 1:I mean, I'm so pro leftover that there was one time have you ever like noticed yourself doing something and then notice the people around you and you're like, oh right, like this is like kind of a weird thing that I'm doing. But like to me it's like like one time I basically was taking all of pretty much all the leftovers in the fridge and just like mixing them into like one bowl and just like ate it yeah and my kids were like looking at me like what are you eating?
Speaker 3:like what did you?
Speaker 1:do like. I just plopped down next to them at the table and so now they still like reference it where they're like what was in they call it the everything bowl yeah, where they were like dad took everything from the feet like they were both like telling sarah like I did something wrong yeah, was it like a mix of savory and sweet it?
Speaker 1:was just like a mix of just like we had some leftover mac and cheese that the kids didn't need, and then there was like leftover taco meat. So I was just like, well, that I mean that'll go together like just throw it in there, right like there was leftover. There's leftover rice, there was leftover, you know like all these different things and I was like whatever, and then I'll put some chili crisp on top of it.
Speaker 2:Totally, I've totally done, just a flavor enhancer, but then there'll be.
Speaker 1:There's certain things where I'm like that's not going in here sure, yeah, at that moment, though, I was just kind of like taking everything and then, yeah, I was like slice of a hard-boiled egg. Why, why not? We only got one left. But I was going okay, yeah maybe this could be construed as like a little bit odd. Yeah or a little bit extreme with the leftovers.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Sometimes I think those types of things. If you heat them up hot enough, it's like it all kind of mixes. You burn your mouth a little bit it does, and know your take on this, joshua.
Speaker 1:but leftovers, the last thing I will say is I have a just knack for leaving it in the fridge till what I think is like well, if we don't eat it now, it's gone it's just gone and it's just gonna be a waste, so I'll eat it, and an hour later, an hour later, one of my children will ask for it. Where's that thing? It just happened before I came over here, oh my god, where I was like we had a couple of meatballs.
Speaker 2:I was like it's do or die time like these things are, like they're going in the trash they're going in they're going in our compost of the trash.
Speaker 1:I'm gonna eat them yeah so I ate them. Right before I left sir's, like guess what just happened. I was like what she was, like wes was. I think I'll have some of those meatballs and it never fails.
Speaker 2:Like I like, think I'm waiting. So how will you break it to him? Like I ate those. Well, I left and came here. Okay, Nice.
Speaker 1:He's usually. He usually comes down. I mean, he's just kind of like dad, like why'd you do that? Yeah, I wanted those. Yeah, it's like you didn't want in the last three days. Yeah, oh my god my little brother.
Speaker 2:Take on that. My little brother, when we were young, would eat. He would get chicken nuggets and he would eat five out of six oh, really one little nugget in the fridge. My older brother now would be like what I'm supposed to say in that thing? We're like it's one nugget, he's not gonna fucking remember this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you don't leave one.
Speaker 2:He was like a little shitty little kid. We love him, we love him but he like you just leave one, he was like you know, and then he would if we ate it we had hell to pay, like because he did want it, and he would remember that. He would remember it at one single chicken mcnugget crazy that's the thing it's.
Speaker 1:These leftovers are in the back of the fridge yeah, remembers them.
Speaker 2:They're gonna go bad. Even knows this was ever here and it's almost like out of sight, out of mind.
Speaker 1:And the second I have it. Yeah it like awakens something in my children Right.
Speaker 2:And they're like oh actually, the bond between them and the nugget is awoken, now that you say it, he only had one meatball, the fresh one, and I was like well, they're not gonna eat the rest of these because they didn't like him when it was fresh right, and then they're like actually dead.
Speaker 4:Oh my god, I could use a meatball. Um, what do you think, yeah, about leftovers. How wise, I think.
Speaker 4:I think in a home you gotta have one leftover guy, otherwise you run into trouble yeah, you're a leftover guy, true like I used to think, I used to like not eat things in the fridge because I was like, oh, kelly's probably gonna want this. And I learned from I never years, you never want it, never. So I always take it now, oh and that's great for you. My real trick my real trick is I'm trying not to eat things that are expired, because that's what's not wise.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, yeah, like I want to, but I will eat, but I will combine pretty much my breakfast.
Speaker 4:generally, most mornings is combining what's in the frig or the fridge.
Speaker 2:It's called the frig because Josh's mom writes it in her text. She's like take anything you want out of the F-R-I-G. The refrigerator, take it out in her text. She's like take anything you want out of the F-R-I-G. The refrigerator.
Speaker 4:Take it out of the fridge. It's the name of our ongoing Spotify playlist. That's been since the day we moved in together. I'll just cue up music to listen to in the car or whenever we want to listen to music. It's called the Frig, the Frig, yeah, 89.7. The Frig, the brig. But yeah, I love mixing, like all the different foods. I guess, like the wisdom is knowing restraint.
Speaker 1:No yeah.
Speaker 4:Like I'm going to mix the pasta and the beef but I'm like not going to like squeeze in this lime. Yeah, it's tempting.
Speaker 2:Josh will put lime. Josh needs to have handcuffs on him when he's around a lime. I mean, he will put so much lime on things that do not call for it.
Speaker 4:I feel like my first six months of living with you was like I'd have a pretty good idea and it would be like five out of the six ingredients would go together and then I'd be about to squeeze a lime in and you'd be like what are you doing? You'd have like a visceral reaction and I've learned.
Speaker 4:I've learned now this is also probably a product of me. Like doing less edibles, I feel like every ingredient I take out, I'll be like do you really want this in? Instead of kind of like automatically, just like I'm going to take everything that's left Because I'm a machine.
Speaker 1:Step away from the line.
Speaker 2:Because I'm like, I love lemon and lime but like, for God's sake, there's a limit. I wanted dusting A little squirt. You're like squeezing both halves into like one salad dressing for one salad that's great, I love it. It's like your mouth is gonna have like cuts in it it does.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think the. I think the real wisdom here is knowing when to um. And maybe you're someone who just doesn't like leftovers and maybe you don't like meditating. I can't tell you that's unwise but if you do like leftovers, the wisdom is knowing when to throw them out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and having the courage.
Speaker 4:Having the courage To throw them out.
Speaker 1:To throw them out. Yeah, just don't take them if you're like out somewhere.
Speaker 2:Yeah, don't take them home, like let other people who are going to have it?
Speaker 4:just like let other people take it. Yeah, you know Totally, Let me take it. Don't fake, I'll eat it as well.
Speaker 1:So let me take it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh, I'm happy to give.
Speaker 1:Yeah, let Josh take the leftovers.
Speaker 2:It's interesting, like ever at a restaurant.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And like we will usually take theirs or any.
Speaker 3:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like we're, I'll take them because I know you'll eat them, and every once in a while if I'm at, like Joe's Stone Crab like, I'll take the leftovers and I will eat those. You know if it's really good food, Mm-hmm Usually like really good Italian place that has huge portions.
Speaker 4:Like I, yeah, that has huge portions. Like I, yeah, I'll be taking those and you and I'll like fight for who gets to eat them. Um, but like every day, no, I'm not eating leftovers. Is it leftovers if you take, if you? Is it leftovers if you've got? They're doing funny hand kind of like prissy, like aristocratic.
Speaker 1:I don't uh, I don't do leftovers, I don't partake For the help.
Speaker 2:Oh no, Just kidding.
Speaker 4:Canceled. I hope I met you. Yeah, love the movie, the Help, favorite movie? Yeah, is it leftovers if you take it home in a box and then you eat it either in the car or watching TV an hour later?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's fun. Is that leftovers?
Speaker 1:Good question. That is in the car watching tv like an hour later.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's fun. Is that leftovers? Good question that is yeah, what's the threshold of, and a lot of the sign of, a good restaurant? I mean, well, yes, yeah, I also something I do. More kelly since we've been together is, um, not putting things in the fridge, even for up to 24 hours.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I, yeah, I kind of will really chance it. I will leave stuff out of the fridge overnight and then eat it the next day.
Speaker 4:How's that changing our definition?
Speaker 3:Listen, I would never die.
Speaker 2:I know, because there's people who won't leave something out of the fridge for like an hour and I'm like, oh, I'll leave it out for the whole night. I'll leave pizza out for the whole night and then you do it the next day.
Speaker 1:Wait, you'll leave pizza out for the whole night and then you do it the next day. Oh yeah, Pizza's different, that's a different animal.
Speaker 2:I would do that too, you would do that, oh yeah.
Speaker 1:I would do the pizza. I feel like.
Speaker 2:Pasta. I'll do it, but it's like in a container. It's just putting in the air fryer no, I bet it'll be good in the air fryer there you go yeah sold. Next question love the air fryer now yeah wait, speaking of that now, this is a real tangent. You notice how Dunkin' Donuts gets stale within like four hours, and then Krispy Kremes never gets stale Preservatives. Yeah, there must be, like hella, preservatives in those things.
Speaker 1:I don't eat enough of either of those to know that.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 3:I am chowing down on those regularly. I haven't had a Dunkin at Donuts in so long.
Speaker 4:Oh my god, it's called our daily donut. Every day we get a donut and we switch it up where it's from.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there is a really good donut place. We told you about it.
Speaker 4:I think so have we plugged this on the pod, yet Downstate Donuts, it's in Uptown, it's so good.
Speaker 2:It's potato donuts.
Speaker 1:That's right. You mentioned that it's so good.
Speaker 4:Anyway, have we talked about the substance yet? Yes, I don't know. Like four times, I think, maybe just once, but maybe twice.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:The substance will be coming out of your fridge if you don't throw out those leftovers.
Speaker 2:The leftovers, yeah, the leftovers, okay, it can be wise it can be wise and you kind of got to cook with leftovers in mind, if you're ever going to make enough food for your meal.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for your children.
Speaker 2:So hopefully for your children, hopefully you do have a leftover person, at least one of them, in your house.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And hopefully you don't have too many of them, because then they'll all be fighting over the leftovers. So make sure you train them.
Speaker 1:It also just can prevent cooking burnout cooking burnout.
Speaker 2:Yeah, feeling like you gotta cook every single day. Yeah, you know, yeah, it's true, because, like we're cooking each meal and it can, it can be relentless plus not like I want to be all jewish about this, but cost saver exactly 100, gotta say it yes
Speaker 4:yeah, within reason 100, but like you can't ignore that, it's a huge huge advantage.
Speaker 1:Yeah to leftovers and wisdom of engaging with leftovers yeah, big batch.
Speaker 2:And then you eat leftovers soup, stew, pasta, all of it I'm hungry I know, I don't know why there's something psychological going on where this entire conversation we've had. I feel like the fridge is open. I I've genuinely had that like intrusive it's calling to you it's like, because we're referring to it, I'm like it needs me frig is calling the frig and it's not. It's not open, it would be beeping at us no, but now I think it's open it's amazing how we solve all the world's problems.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know leftovers, we're doing some pretty heavy lifting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and we hope you all enjoyed all the world's problems in this podcast Leftovers. We're doing some pretty heavy lifting yeah. And we hope you all enjoy it. Yeah, we hope you all enjoy it.
Speaker 1:We're glad you're all along for the ride.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and we'll be with you next week. Any plugs for you, john.
Speaker 1:Just contact me Any questions. How wise is it If you have any strong opinions about air fryer? I mean, I feel like we have to do air fryer next week so if you have, any strong opinions about that, or leftovers or any of our how wise is it? Questions.
Speaker 2:you can always email me at buttsjonathan at gmailcom yeah, and if you want to reach me, if you want to send in topics or how wise is it questions, or you want to be on the pod, or if you want to work with me, um, my website is kkpsychotherapycom and you can send me an inquiry from there. Yeah, and thank you, of course, to our wonderful producer, josh bear, my husband thanks.
Speaker 4:Joshbearfilmscom is my website looking for work, about to wrap up a project. I've got a lot of jobs lined up, but if you want me to edit your thing, maybe I'll do it.
Speaker 2:I don't know yeah, josh has a number of projects that haven't like fully started.
Speaker 4:Um, but yeah, if you want to get in that line and I'd like to plug may simones again still listening to that album. Oh, that's incredible.
Speaker 2:We did finally listen to that after he plugged it and burst out laughing and it is very good. It's soothing, kind of fun French music it's very good, and Anastasia. Yeah, you will not shut up about Anastasia Fun to say A-N-N-A and Smurz.
Speaker 4:Smurz is cool.
Speaker 2:A-N-N-A-H-S-T-A-S-I-A. Who's Anastasia, the album tetherer? I don't think you're cheating on me with this, anastasia.
Speaker 4:She's got a cool voice and it's just nice. It's like moms could get into this. It's nice you said it sounds like Tracy Chapman. Yeah, I think it sounds a little like Tracy Chapman soulful and kind of like just edgy enough, where it's like okay, this could pass for adult alternative, but like the lyrics are a little weird. You know she probably likes radiohead, I don't know yeah, I like it.
Speaker 2:Totally love that soothing. Yeah and um, shout out and thank you to blanket blanket forts, as always music yeah, okay, by blanket, forts.
Speaker 4:Yeah, look up. Not yet on Spotify. It is on Bandcamp.
Speaker 2:Okay, great, Okay Well, thank you everyone. We will talk to you next week.
Speaker 1:Take care everybody. Bye, Bye.
Speaker 2:The Wise Mind Happy Hour podcast is for entertainment purposes only, not to be treated as medical advice. If you are struggling with your mental health, please seek medical attention or counseling.