The Wise Mind Happy Hour
Two therapists musing about the idea of an inner wise mind and how to connect with this psychic space in different contexts.
The Wise Mind Happy Hour
the wisdom of UNCERTAINTY (feat. Mia D'Agostino, LCSW)
Exposure therapist Mia D'Agostino helps us sit with uncertainty, and even goes so far as to color-code it...we all experience uncertainty on a daily basis, so why not confront it head-on?
- music by blanket forts -
Welcome to the wise mind happy hour. I'm John. I'm Kelly and well welcome we're your therapists, not really, but kind of, really, really kind of, are. You are paying for this, yeah, yeah, no, have you been?
Speaker 2:I've been good. I'm right now. I'm so excited because we today we have a very special guest who will bring into the pot after the intro. Um, but yeah, I'm feeling any hints. Any hints for our audience of billions yeah, what's a good hint maybe like childhood oh yeah, childhood friend, co-worker, childhood friend and, and much more we'll leave it at that, yeah, and then we'll have a big reveal and we'll have a big reveal. We will um, but yeah, what am I? What am I?
Speaker 3:checking in? About what are we checking in?
Speaker 2:about. I feel like the last few days I've been pretty busy with my work, which has been good. Um, the weekend was good, josh and I got so much done, so much like wedding stuff done that we'd wanted to. It was one of those situations where we avoided and avoided and avoided and avoided and avoided. The weekend was good, josh and I got so much done, so much like wedding stuff done that we'd wanted to.
Speaker 2:It was one of those situations where we avoided and avoided and avoided and avoided and avoided unpacking boxes. And then, as we're doing it, we're like I love this, it's so fun, it feels so productive. This is how we should be all the time Every Sunday. We should just get things done. We were like high on our own supply.
Speaker 1:But your place also looks very nice.
Speaker 2:Oh, thank you. Finally, I've noticed a few new things already. Yeah, we have this new lamp over there. It doesn't have a bulb in it yet. Josh's mom got us that lamp, so we're loving that. And your shoe. What is it? The shoe, shoe, rack that Josh put together.
Speaker 1:Why did I think you?
Speaker 3:called it something. I called it a shoe tree a shoe tree.
Speaker 1:That's what do I? Just keep saying this, keep saying it sounded great I told my therapist about the shoe tree yes, because you spiraled about that.
Speaker 2:I think she was like how are?
Speaker 3:you doing? I was like, I don't know, I built a shoe tree.
Speaker 2:I think you should stick with it absolutely panicked that I wasn't gonna like this shoe tree. When he picked me, when I picked him up to go to the grocery store after I left my office, and josh was like well, if you don't like it, like we obviously get rid of it, but like I'll be really disappointed, I was like you have no idea whether or not I like it, and it was a full spiral I had to be like I'm not discussing this for another it took like five hours to build, but I guess you could argue that that's good character building well, can I just say it's, it's.
Speaker 1:I thought it was great. I immediately walked in first thing. I noticed and I love it thank you, john.
Speaker 3:Thank you for saying that, but I'm also not just saying I don't know if you fully believe that yeah but I do. Now I'm post spiral, okay because nothing about your situation.
Speaker 1:That was happening before the shoe tree. I'm not judging it at all because my house is. You can imagine what my house looks like, but walking in it was a stark contrast oh wow, the organization and I didn't even think shoes were in there. It looks too thin to have shoes you know, it's kind of an optical.
Speaker 2:It is an optical illusion, I know. Yeah, I just figured it was like a nice set of drawers yeah, which it kind of is. It is, though, and it's got that cool little half moon design. I like it cool, I like it, but I was saying you could put and we couldn't.
Speaker 1:We couldn't think of the name of it is what you put your keys in called a valet. Am I thinking of the wrong term here? It's like a leather it's like a little you put like your keys or your wallet in it's like sits on the table. It sits on like your dresser or table. I thought it was called a valet I mean maybe it is somebody that parks your car, yeah, I mean anyway, josh, I digress producer josh is googling away silently.
Speaker 2:Maybe it is that we that was. What I became most excited about was putting the keys in the top drawer I was like because we'll have one place and I'll be right by the door.
Speaker 1:That's great. Grab them out and go.
Speaker 2:You gotta have a place, like I'm, so excited but josh was like we could get rid of it but like I would feel really disappointed and I was like if we really don't like it, we'll get rid of it. And he's like wouldn I don't know if. I'm going to like it, so we had to deal with it a little bit.
Speaker 3:I can't. I'm just getting a lot of results for valet parking.
Speaker 1:Valet parking. Whatever, whatever, maybe it is I mean.
Speaker 2:a valet can mean a few things. I remember on Gilmore Girls the grandpa had his own butler and he called him a valet instead of a butler, like it was a more masculine version of like a butler. But even a butler is masculine. It's an extremely masculine term. Yeah, a masculine version of a maid is it like a valet tray?
Speaker 1:is that what it is? Valet trays?
Speaker 2:oh okay, no, whatever well, we could put one on there. I mean, yeah, I'll put a little. It's our sponsor. Yeah, valet, not our sponsor. Valet trays Burners.
Speaker 1:Burners, valet trays and candles.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah Well it looks great.
Speaker 1:It looks like it was a very productive weekend.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was, oh we went to two concerts. Last week actually, we saw Father John Misty and Alabama Shakes, and those were great.
Speaker 3:Yeah, such fun, father John Misty.
Speaker 2:Mother, mother Josh is using the word mother now for everyone. Father John Misty is definitely mother, mostly women.
Speaker 3:Yeah, he's the first man I've used it for.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that was you said that was at the Salt Shed right Salt Shed, right Salt Shed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they were both at the Salt Shed and we treated the Salt Shed like it was our own personal Lollapalooza. We got there at like 4 pm on Thursday and saw all the acts, so we could get really close.
Speaker 1:Nice.
Speaker 2:And it was amazing we were this close to Father John Misty. It was so cool.
Speaker 3:Really fun.
Speaker 2:He's a great performer. It was amazing, amazing, yeah, and Alabama shakes were great too.
Speaker 3:We've seen Brittany Howard twice solo, so we're a little jaded.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I thought her solo show was better, but it was great, they were fantastic. Yeah, so that's what we did. What about you? I?
Speaker 1:had a busy weekend. Yeah, Saturday my one of my best friends got married. Well it was his like family. So that was really great. So I got to see, like my college friends who I haven't seen in a while. And then Sunday we actually went to Madison and saw Wicked.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, because the wedding was in Madison.
Speaker 1:It wasn't. But Sarah went to Madison, so we went there, we saw Wicked and then we just like walked around campus.
Speaker 3:How was it? It was great.
Speaker 1:The show was great. Madison's just such a great college town I've never been.
Speaker 2:It's amazing. I can't believe I've never been to Madison.
Speaker 1:It's great and the weather was perfect and we stayed overnight and then on Monday we just went to the Union Terrace, which is just, it's on the lake. Yeah, like a bar just on the lake, and yeah it was great people were on their boats and it was just cool to see. You know, it's fun to watch sarah with the, with the boys and like show them where she had classes and stuff. I mean it's changed so much. There's just so much like construction, like most college campuses yeah, yeah um, but yeah it was.
Speaker 1:And just their questions about like college and like yeah, what did? They think they just I. I actually think my oldest son might've thought Madison was a little weird, like just because I like keep Madison weird kind of thing, yeah, like that kind of idea. Like you know, just a lot of people out selling like rocks and, like you know, like some of that type of stuff and I think so I think he was just a little bit like what's going on here?
Speaker 1:yeah, and states are just typically closed, so it's like there's all these shops and then there's just people walking in the middle of the street and you know which is fun. I'm almost picturing like boulder yeah, or any, yeah, just like yeah I think a cool college town like hippie ish ann arbor or something ann arbor.
Speaker 1:Yeah, maybe a little bit shout out, maybe a little bit, uh, you know yeah, yeah, I don't know, but yeah, like almost like a portlandy or like you know that type of thing that's so cool but they were just like well, like where, where are the people? Like where are the students? Why are their students here? But they're not all here like just the idea of like not going to a singular building for school. I think really will blow a child's mind like it doesn't really matter how do you get there?
Speaker 3:who takes? How do you get?
Speaker 2:there who do you live with?
Speaker 1:yeah, you don't live in the same place every year that you're there like all of these questions, because we were driving and sarah was like, oh, that was my house freshman year and my son house. You had a house, but you also didn't live there Like. You only lived there one year, so there was a lot of that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that would be really mind-blowing to a kid.
Speaker 1:It's hard to explain college to a child, Right Until they get to a certain age, Like it really is a foreign concept. I feel like yeah.
Speaker 2:Moving home, but you come back, maybe for the summer, but then some kids live right there in the summer and they work I'm trying to remember, even remember when I first learned about college. I mean, I'm sure my dad was talking about college like stories from when I was young, but like when I really like, realized, like, oh, you go away and you live away yeah, some movie oh yeah, it's probably a movie all the movies yeah Combined. Yeah, yeah, I don't remember being freaked out about it. I don't really remember.
Speaker 1:He says it jokingly now, but I think somebody I don't know who, it might have been myself or Sarah or somebody in our family said yeah, well, when you go to college, you know you ship you off, and so he started calling it shipping school. He was like I don't know if I want to go to shipping school and I'm like what are you talking about?
Speaker 2:And he's like I don't know, he doesn't know ships Like shipping like, yeah, he doesn't want to be shipped off, and I was like, well, we're shipping you off, don't it?
Speaker 2:how much I was like I can't believe I'm literally living in this dorm with like strangers, I don't know anyone. This sucks Like I used to have a house. It's disorienting and like I remember, and I remember I told my mom that like the first week, she was like do you want to go somewhere else? And I was like, oh, I just like simply don't want to do this.
Speaker 1:Like whatsoever, I want to go somewhere else. And I was like, oh, I just like simply don't want to do this like whatsoever. I don't want to go and and I knew that wasn't really an option so I was like I guess I just have to like get used to this yeah, how long do you think it took you to get used to like? I mean I?
Speaker 2:honestly feel like it took me kind of the whole freshman year to feel comfortable. I like I made friends and like got it together, but I remember leaving freshman year for the summer and feeling so sad to leave yeah and I was like okay, this is a turning point.
Speaker 2:But I mean, it was like I had to make friends from scratch. My brother went there but he was like a sophomore doing his own thing and I remember like I was lost on campus. And I saw him and I'm like can you help me get to this building? He was like no, and I was like really he you help me get to this building and he was like no, and I was like really he's like wait, how old is he he's?
Speaker 1:a year older than me. Oh, I thought there was more distance there.
Speaker 2:No, we only are one grade apart. We both went to Wash U. Speaking of Wash U, I'm going to force Josh to get some Wash U t-shirts slash sweatshirts so we can have some washi representation in this michigan household.
Speaker 3:I like it, do it. It's time, time for a little. You should do it. Yeah, are you gonna get me the washi mom?
Speaker 2:shirt. Yeah, I want to get josh a washi mom. That's good, I like that, I'll wear it to all the sporting events it's so amazing.
Speaker 1:We went to the one of the bookstores and it was like just an entire wall filled with every iteration of family member, every iteration. The neighbors are chirping away. They're chirping away. What do you think's?
Speaker 3:happening, probably watching, watching they walk.
Speaker 2:They usually watch sports. Should we see if they're okay?
Speaker 3:dog could be both simultaneously.
Speaker 2:It's often the dogs, the dogs.
Speaker 3:It's also often sports.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Sports or dogs Should we see?
Speaker 2:Oh, I'm sure they're fine.
Speaker 1:It's so loud. This is the loudest it's ever been, I know. I wonder if the mics are even picking it up.
Speaker 2:I think last time they did. They're picking it up? Oh, they are.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:If you're a listener, you could write in and vote, whether it's sports or dogs, we audience participation. That's so funny. Um, have you ever seen wicked, though?
Speaker 2:getting back to that, so famously I don't love wicked, it's good and I know that's an unpopular opinion and I know that and that I I. I will end my statement there, josh likes wicked my brothers went to see wicked. They loved it most people loved it. I also didn't love hamilton like I.
Speaker 1:I liked it I didn't wasn't crazy. I didn't like hamilton as much as most people okay but I also feel like that was like a byproduct of getting a little late to the game.
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally, but I I get it wicked. I just remember thinking the story was a little bit more like childlike than I thought. But god bless, I mean the movie looks great there's also some holes in it I feel like after the show.
Speaker 1:When we went to dinner, even with the kids, we were like wait a second, let's, can we rewind this for a second here? And we were like poking some holes in it. But it was fine yeah, yeah, but the performers are so amazing.
Speaker 3:The sets are amazing, amazing.
Speaker 1:The voices are incredible. I'm not a big Broadway person.
Speaker 2:Yeah, me neither, just going to theater is very I don't know.
Speaker 1:There's something about being there that is very energizing.
Speaker 2:Oh, totally, it's inspiring. It is inspiring these performers and they're so positive that I like One of my kids' friends was like yeah, I saw wicked, wicked like john wicked. Yeah, he must be a john wick. Yeah, john wick, fan past tense wicked, you've been.
Speaker 1:Said it out loud for the first time you do like wicked, though wicked, I saw I was probably like when did it first?
Speaker 3:Josh, I saw I was probably like when did it first.
Speaker 1:Oh, 20 years ago.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I was probably like 15. And yeah, I loved it. I don't know I like. I feel like I have a thing with musicals where I think I'm not going to like them, and then I go and I end up really, what's your favorite musical?
Speaker 2:I mean, I feel like I like Grease does that count?
Speaker 1:that is definitely a musical.
Speaker 4:I'm kind of thinking of the movie.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I'm going to say Grease.
Speaker 1:I get dragged for this all the time. I love Newsies.
Speaker 2:I don't know why Christian Bale's in that right?
Speaker 1:he, like, erases everyone's resume he won't let people like ask him, he's in it. That's so lame, he's totally in it, um yeah, I don't know, I really like that one. I have to see that one, but I don't even like that, like time period it's the 80s no, it's like the 30s yeah, it's like oh, yeah, exactly, or even is it post-depression or even before?
Speaker 3:I've never. I honestly am very unfamiliar with it. I just it's about like people throwing newspapers right, pretty much yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I just picture like they're on a paper route or they're in a newsroom neither they are.
Speaker 1:It's like an orphanage. It's like literally like orphanage. It's like literally like uh, not even close, it's the 80s. No, they're in a like an orphanage, and to make money they have to like sell papes.
Speaker 2:Oh, they're gonna sell the papes.
Speaker 1:Oh, they're in an orphanage, yeah and so they have to like, but they're being completely like. It's like child labor, basically oh, okay, and so they have have to have this revolt against the powers, that be Okay.
Speaker 2:Musicals love an orphanage, like Annie yeah.
Speaker 3:I love it. Name one more Newsies, two. There you go.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what's another orphanage?
Speaker 3:Name. Even one more Name, another musical Just name a musical. I can't, I simply can't.
Speaker 1:That's good stuff though.
Speaker 2:Okay, well that's. Is that anything else?
Speaker 1:going on? I don't know. No, that was it. I don't think anything else is going on with me. Are our check-ins getting even more?
Speaker 2:Like like a day's ago, I don't know. I can barely remember what I do, like you know, the day before yeah, I know when I'm driving over.
Speaker 1:This was easy because my weekend was very yeah busy, but usually I'm driving over here like I don't know what I'm gonna yeah say, yeah, well, this might be the perfect time.
Speaker 2:Perfect time to end the show yeah to end the show.
Speaker 3:This was uh, this was it no, of course.
Speaker 2:Yes, you should do the intro yes, so our guest today is the illustrious therapist and friend mia d'agostino lcsw.
Speaker 4:Welcome, yeah thank you for having me oh my god, yeah, I'm getting a front row seat to my favorite podcast. Yes, welcome to watch you guys in action oh yeah.
Speaker 2:What is it like to sit silent for the intro?
Speaker 4:is it like well, I felt like I had to muffle all my like. I was like just trying to be silent. So yeah, or like the same thing that I do in my kitchen, where I just like want to chime in yeah, you know the podcast, or the musical that I want to talk about, or whatever but what is your favorite musical?
Speaker 1:that's the reason we can't do it Lion King, oh yeah, that's a good one.
Speaker 2:So that counts like cartoons. No, no, no.
Speaker 1:There was a real production, Kelly. That's actually a little yeah.
Speaker 4:That's why, actually, it ends up being my favorite. Yes. Because I remember one time I was staying at my cousin's house and Maya and I were like we're going to go see Lion King, and I definitely thought it was going to be people in plush costumes like Lion King. Like almost like mascot type material, and I was kind of like bummer, like I wish you were just staying home and then, if you've ever seen Lion King, like no.
Speaker 1:The costumes are incredible.
Speaker 4:It's like opening scene it's like people are coming out and they're like on stilts and there are some people who are like the hyenas, who are in a squat position for the entire time. Are some people who are like the hyenas, who are in a squat position for the entire time? And the makeup and the costumes. So what I was expecting versus reality was so different that it was like, oh, this is the greatest thing, whereas I had the experience at hamilton or wicked, like it was good it was good, it was really good yeah, I was expecting, you know, yeah, this amazing experience.
Speaker 4:So lion king, because I thought it was literally cartoons like sing-along yeah, it was so good, yeah, but it really was.
Speaker 1:I mean, it really is so good wow I haven't, but I know, I mean, I've seen footage of it and the costumes are incredible yeah, wow really okay and I do love the movie.
Speaker 4:So that's my plug for lion king.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love it and before we even intro you and our topic, tell us. Tell us what's new with you. What, oh gosh, tell us?
Speaker 4:about your life a little bit, a little bit outside of work okay, outside of work. I'm outside of work. I'm cleaning food off the floor quite a bit. Yeah, he has a newish mom yeah, I've got a little toddler. Um, we just went to a. We had a little wedding weekend, oh yeah you had a wedding too.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so that was fun. Um, no, it's a lot, of, a lot of time with my son and yeah, it's been, it's been really nice. I was telling you guys before we started that I was a little a hectic couple of days with a little gusher, as the pediatrician called it. Yeah, a little, a little lip yeah, split, so we're all okay, good still scary.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I. I mean I feel like I'm I'm gonna be worse than anyone in those situations. I feel like with a child, like I'll just like start crying and that'll be unhelpful to them.
Speaker 4:You won't. You won't because you'll want to keep, I mean yeah maybe cry after.
Speaker 2:Actually, that's true, like I feel like if my nieces fall, I do run and pick them up and hold them. I'll even yell at my brother, who is a dad and pediatrician, and tell him you're not holding them right, putting pressure on it, because I remember one time one of his daughters fell and I was like you need to squeeze the area, oh my god.
Speaker 2:But yeah, okay, we're good, yeah, he's doing okay okay, so well, so maybe I'll intro our topic and then we can talk about how this comes up for you and your work, because really comes up a lot. I mean, it comes up a lot.
Speaker 4:I mean it comes up a lot in all of our work but today we're going to talk about uncertainty, so maybe actually that's what we're talking about today.
Speaker 2:Yeah, john was uncertain of the topic, as I never texted it to him.
Speaker 1:I was like this is great, we don't have a, yeah, we don't have a topic, this is great. And you're like no, it's uncertainty. Yeah, sorry about that, you know, it's like sometimes no, it's uncertainty.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sorry about that. You know it's like sometimes. It's like Mia and I talked about it, I told Josh and then in my head I was like oh, I definitely told. John. And then I'm like, oh, I never sent him a text.
Speaker 1:It's fine.
Speaker 2:And I guess I never mentioned it last week because I even knew then. But yeah, you did I just wanted to. I like it, though, but maybe let's Whoa, there's so much noise. I know we have a very noisy.
Speaker 3:I like it anyway.
Speaker 4:someone like turning yeah, you're uncertain about burning rubber. I couldn't see it?
Speaker 3:yeah, I was like, should we flip the camera? Yeah, well, why would get a little? Yeah, why would this?
Speaker 1:topic of uncertainty maybe be your specialty.
Speaker 4:Yeah, maybe you tell us a little bit about your background, training and your specialty, because it's definitely, it's certainly much different than mine yeah, so I'm an exposure therapist, and exposure therapy is exposing people to their fears, and oftentimes their fears involve, like at the root of their fears is uncertainty. So there is a lot of fear of, like something bad happening, but just as sitting in the unknown is often what I'm exposing people to.
Speaker 4:So when I'm working with someone with OCD or social anxiety or panic illness, anxiety, like all of those, incorporate a lot of uncertainty. Yeah, so, oh my.
Speaker 1:God, it is right. Oh, my God. After that description that's intense.
Speaker 4:That's uncertainty, yeah. So yeah, I feel like it is at the root, especially when you work with somebody with anxiety. It is at the root of a lot of anxiety.
Speaker 2:Yeah, as you were saying that a part of me is like is there any like anxiety or OCD, where that's not at the root?
Speaker 4:I don't.
Speaker 3:I don't even think there is yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's almost like at the root of so many things. Yeah, Definitely.
Speaker 2:Or yeah, definitely, or it's like I was thinking about this today. I fear this is a tangent, but I I was thinking about how it's like so often, like with any issue that a client brings up to me, I'm like somewhere here I have to find like the reality that's just simply painful to sit with, which is like uncertainty in a lot of cases, but it's just something where it's like you want to change something that's unchangeable with so many things, yeah, and it's like it's such a hard thing.
Speaker 4:Well, I think we skip over uncertainty, like I think we. We actually don't even acknowledge a lot of times the fact that we are uncertain about something and we have to just sit in that feeling. We are go to like problem solve our catastrophic thought or you know whatever we think is going to happen, great point.
Speaker 4:And I guess we're kind of skipping ahead. But, like, sometimes I will talk about using something called an uncertainty statement. Like, when we're most anxious about something, can we make an uncertainty statement, like about this situation? And it is hard for both me and the client to generate that statement. Yeah, because it's not natural to think about like okay, what is, what is this? What are we actually uncertain about in this moment?
Speaker 1:yeah, and when you say, we jump to that because that's very accurate, you're saying just humans, that's just the way our minds work. Or you just feel like people have been programmed that that's just the way our minds work, or you just feel like people have been programmed that that's like the effective thing to do, or not, that there's one answer to it. But like what, I'm curious, like when?
Speaker 4:you say we jump to that because that's a good. I certainly jump to that as well, just being human but yeah, I guess I don't know why we do it yeah or what it comes from. But I think like when we talk about control moves, like I feel like I do incorporate a lot of acts like control moves and the illusion of control, Like I think we're all operating in like a pretty large illusion of control.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 4:Most of the time.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, it's even adapted to some extent to believe you have like power a, but sometimes even more power than you actually have, Can can in some cases be adaptive. So power A, but sometimes even more power than you actually have Can in some cases, be adaptive.
Speaker 4:Well, and I was thinking about this, like you know, split lip and we baby proofed our entire place right and it's like, okay, is this the illusion of control? Like I know realistically, like my son's going to get hurt. I did all these things to try and like avoid, you know, really catastrophic injuries and maybe I will and maybe I won't, and that's the uncertainty.
Speaker 4:And that's the hard part of like no matter how careful I am or the other people who are with him, or, at the end of the day, like I actually don't know what's coming my way or his way.
Speaker 1:No, parenting is yeah, that's all uncertain, yeah there's a lot of uncertainty.
Speaker 4:So these uncertain statements are like if I'm taking this example of parenting, it may be something like I don't know all the joys or excitement or wonderful moments and I don't know the pain and the scary and the frustrating moments that are coming my way in parenting. I mean, that's, that's just like that's the answer to your statement.
Speaker 4:Like I could say like, and I'm not quite sure how I'll, you know, respond or navigate each of those moments. I mean I could add something to it. But even just in it's sort of just that, it's hard to come up with even that, because so often, like, my brain will go to I don't know when he's going to split his chin open one day and how that's going to be, and I say I don't know. But then I've like filled in the blank the other half with, like this catastrophic thinking, and so sometimes I'm trying to get my clients or myself to just like balance it a little more, like why don't we, yeah, take a big step back and like let's look at this like as negative, as positive and kind of give it a neutral, uncertainty statement, and our brains just do not come up with that statement.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 4:Easily Like the next time that you're anxious about something, we give an uncertainty statement.
Speaker 1:I'm almost not computing what you're saying right now like even listening to you talk about it is like my brain is already not really like there.
Speaker 4:It's like hard I think, yeah, like, oh, I guess like one I'll use for like somebody who has some somebody named mia who has, like, if you're worried about, like your, your health in any given moment, right.
Speaker 4:I can say like I can't be, for I can't say for certain my health status in any given moment, right. That's neutral. I'm not saying I don't know for sure or not if I have X, y and Z right. It's really just kind of being neutral and taking a step back. And I think the interesting thing is that clients and myself find uncertainty statements like anxiety provoking, like they're used sometimes as an actual exposure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was going to say so.
Speaker 4:That's the exposure Like sometimes it is doing an activity and and reading that statement, right, like doing doing a podcast and reading the uncertainty statement. I don't actually know what anyone is going to think of me positive or negative or neutral and I can't say for certain. Even if they tell me, I don't know really what they're thinking in their mind.
Speaker 2:They really believe. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4:And so sometimes it's just looking at the statement. Sometimes it's looking at the statement and pairing it with an activity and it's interesting because initially it can be very anxiety provoking and then, like, at some point, sometimes there's a shift where it's like oh, I can just kind of let go, like I can't do anything about this.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that almost like a spontaneous once they engage with the uncertainty. Isn't that amazing, yeah, yeah, I was thinking that, as you were saying that, like that stepping back and looking at like what is actually painful right now, it's the uncertainty, I don't know what this person thinks about me and I'll never actually know. Yeah, Like no, no, and it's like okay, there's nothing I could do no, and it's like okay there's nothing I could do. It's like okay, there's a freedom there. Yeah, there may be grief, but also just like a freedom.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but at the same time both and yeah, the both and for sure, yeah, yeah To really there. I feel like that's so true, like engaging fully with it is the trick, and like there's these different ways, these statements can help you engage with it. No, it's uncertain, because do you find that they start to deal with the catastrophized reality? It's in a different way over. Oh, they start to control and act in a way.
Speaker 4:Well, yeah, I think it's interesting because I think a lot of people when they start like I said, it's anxiety provoking in the beginning, but then someone will say, like this thing came up. And so then I went back to my uncertainty statements and sometimes they actually just reread old uncertainty statements that they had and that can kind of help them through a new moment. Or sometimes they can generate a new uncertainty statement if they feel like it's needed. But it does. It's like it makes you kind of go back to the root of it versus and I think as an exposure therapist I'm always trying to reduce compulsions, and so that's if I'm trying to reduce someone.
Speaker 4:If you're sitting, if you're sitting in uncertainty around, like let's say what someone is thinking about you, and I want to say, like Kelly, what did you, what did you think, how did you think it went? Like John, what do you think? Like, did you think it was good? And then I want to replay like every minute of the podcast and I want to go back in time and see if I can remember it all in the right way and like get a good feeling when I'm doing these are all compulsions, and so if I can kind of go back to the uncertainty statement. It might allow me to actually just pause and realize there's not a real purpose of like all these compulsions, like it's not going to give me what I'm looking for.
Speaker 4:It's the illusion of control.
Speaker 1:And so the compulsions, is the compulsion any behavior?
Speaker 4:Well, I guess I'm saying compulsions I guess from an OCD lens, but or safety behaviors.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 4:But I guess it's any behavior that you're using to try and the attempt is sort of like neutralize or suppress your anxiety.
Speaker 1:Right Knowing that thoughts are behaviors. Thinking is a behavior.
Speaker 4:Yes, so it could be like a mental behavior, like a thought.
Speaker 1:Because I think sometimes probably even clinicians, but probably people that are listening like thinking is a behavior.
Speaker 4:Yes, Thinking is a behavior. Reviewing.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 4:Yes, replaying. Replaying Right Mental comparisons. I mean, really there's. I feel like, yeah, when you first learn about OCD, or you think about OCD, you think about An overt behavior. Yes a behavior.
Speaker 1:I know that's the way that I thought about it years ago. And I was because I just again this is not my expertise at all, but I find it so interesting and I was like, well, it's got to be a behavior. But I would when I would say that I would not be thinking about it in those terms of thinking.
Speaker 4:It would just be like no, it's like the actual overt behavior. And if you think about, I mean, even if it's not ocd specifically, but just worrying in general, right, anxiety in general and worrying, I think the hard thing about any of those mental behaviors is that you can literally do it the entire day, right, you can do it while you're doing a hundred other things, right, yeah, so it really is like something to try and intervene in, something that's so habitual totally.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I feel like I've had days where it's like the whole day I'm doing it, the whole day I'm trying to control some uncertain reality. I'm even thinking like obviously it comes up with health, for sure, but sometimes with health like like then I think, compare that to like fears about, like money or uncertainty it's like I almost think there's like a more robust like illusion of control sometimes in life about that money yeah, yeah like I can and a lot of beliefs circulating like I can, do things to guarantee that I'm safe in this way well, you can look at your bank account, but you can't look in your body, right?
Speaker 4:you know, like, right, there's, there's that, yeah, yeah, there's a lot of guessing, totally, and granted, there's other guessing with finances and things like that, but right yeah, are.
Speaker 1:Are you this? Maybe because you were mentioning maybe off the health? Are you seeing more people with just uncertainty about the world in general, just given the state of the way the world is right now, and maybe this is me projecting my anxiety of uncertainty about the way and how chaotic the world is, but do you feel like you're seeing that trend? More or maybe it's all wrapped up into everything.
Speaker 4:But what's kind of interesting is, I think sometimes the anxiety that I see is so it takes over someone's life in such a way that, like I think there's that present but this other fear kind of overrides it where it's actually not like. If I'm hearing about that, like sometimes it actually means like their other stuff, like the other ocd or panic, is actually kind of at bay right now oh interesting okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know like I feel, like I feel that too, yeah, with body image and stuff, yeah, it's like that part can be so loud it fully drowns out that you don't even know what's happening in the uncertainty of the world. Where it's not causing a kind of disturbance in the body, like maybe they're already at capacity with this other thing, but there's just no room for additional things or they're spending their time consuming something else.
Speaker 4:But I feel like I've also experienced that like sometimes, if something else is on my mind, I can be kind of numb to these other things that are, like, actually maybe more of a threat than whatever my mind is focusing on Totally.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, like when I'm like worried about my hair. The world is what the world is.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, worried about my hair.
Speaker 2:The world is what the world is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's like a more, it's a way to busy the mind and like avoid, avoid the uncertainty that's in front of me, when really maybe, like engaging with it might create more freedom and more even, like I find that like clarity of mind, like so often, that like vague sense of agitation that I'll have, is maybe there's some uncertainty I'm not like facing or some some reality I'm not accepting. That's there.
Speaker 4:I'm just kind of like pushing it over to the corner yeah, and I think I think too, like, as I'm saying, like I think they're worried about something else more than I actually think at times. The focus on something, especially with ocd, actually is very protective right. It's like something that you get to focus on, you get to control, you get to put all your energy towards, because there actually might be something way more painful that feels even harder to you haven't created compulsions around it, you don't have this like system. So I think also that happens, but like maybe.
Speaker 1:So it's it's. Yeah, I don't like the results of an election, and so I'm gonna exert control over something else which then becomes.
Speaker 4:There's a threshold where that becomes diagnostic or yeah, but it's protective because it's putting our yeah I remember early into my not that anybody's worried about any recent or anything but of course yeah I I had in my early days as an exposure therapist. I was consulting with someone's um I. I was their exposure therapist in a program and I was consulting with someone's um I. I was their exposure therapist in a program and I was consulting with their therapist outside of whatever. No, they're, they're outpatient, outpatient, outpatient. I don't know why I'm blanking on that.
Speaker 3:They're outpatient therapists.
Speaker 4:Yes, Like trying to be coded and I don't know why I'm doing that. So I remember that therapist took a more like psycho dynamic approach and I was just straight trying to reduce compulsions and I remember her saying like all right, if you're going to reduce all these compulsions, you better be prepared to deal with what's underneath there because, these compulsions are serving a purpose.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 4:And you got to be ready for, like the rest of this.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And that was definitely kind of an eye-opening conversation yeah and well, yeah, it's important in parts where they talk about that a lot, where you can't let the things underneath rush the gate so if you just force a part out. The system isn't ready. So you like ready the system by kind of asking permission almost like.
Speaker 3:I guess it's like.
Speaker 2:I'm thinking about my own like parts, like I was thinking the other day, like I have a part um that, like we'll like go into fantasy a lot. Like just daydream about like doing something that I'm not currently doing, like something more fun usually this is like a nice part, totally, totally but there are.
Speaker 2:it's helpful to like notice it and and notice like what might it? Because sometimes it'll distract me from what I need to be present with, like paperwork, my, which I'm very avoidant of which it's like sometimes I'm like I need to spend more time in therapy talking about why I avoid getting paid by my clients, like it's a funny, interesting thing, but it's like I'm sure there's an uncertainty there, but it's like I'll go into that and and it's like I have to first establish like an understanding and appreciation for like what that might be doing. Like maybe there's some part of me that finds, like the present moment pretty uncomfortable, or some emotion might be there, or an uncertainty might be there that this part doesn't want me to be overwhelmed by or hurt by in some way. And like appreciating that and kind of like asking this part of me like are you willing to step back to trust me to handle this? So, instead of control, it's trust.
Speaker 4:Yes, yeah. I was thinking the exact same thing of as I'm working with someone and trying to help them kind of lean into the uncertainty. Often, the big takeaway from the experience is to learn that you can trust yourself. Yeah, and if you can trust yourself now, you can trust your future self. We don't have to pre-plan, we don't have to catastrophize, and I think that's yeah it does help you Totally. Totally so many different aspects of your life and different parts of you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but you know what's funny is like in my stumbling through, especially first like learning, learning things like parts work, I I would sometimes like overtly say that like you can trust yourself and it doesn't get in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if I'm not really engaging with, like the thing that's painful with them and helping them like now, feel this, notice this. If it moves away, if it's not there protecting you, if you're not catastrophizing, what do you have to sit there and feel? And then it's like okay, like get them to feel through it, to be uncertain, like you said, the spontaneous, like actually I can do this, and it's like they have to do it, like I've tried to do it for them and I'm like, oh, I can't do that.
Speaker 4:Well. So, as an exposure therapist, I we do these things called well I don't know if everyone calls it this. Obviously, talia and I do a lot of it we call it this takeaways. So at the end of an exposure, right, it's like what was your takeaway, what did you learn from this experience? And even if we have those conversations right where they're like oh, I noticed, like I actually kind of felt better after, like like reading those uncertainty statements a few times, I really want them to like wait, hold on, like let's step back.
Speaker 4:What does it mean? That this sitting in uncertainty was at first anxiety provoking and then relieving? What does that tell you about your anxiety? What does that tell you about leaning in? What does that tell you about uncertainty? And I do feel like because I'm, you know, regimented in like having this exposure form to fill out and I've got this cell. That's like your takeaway, what was your takeaway? And so often they want to be like well, we just talked about it Like no, no, no, no, I'm going to force us to write this down because it's like the gold, the gold of this whole thing we can't skip over the gold, the gold of this whole thing.
Speaker 4:Right, we can't skip over. Still it down. Yeah, yeah, get them to say yeah and I write. And I mean this is you know, sometimes when, even when they're saying something, I won't even log the rest of the exposure, but I'll log just their takeaway. Yeah, and it is like it's, these takeaways could bring me to tears.
Speaker 2:Oh, totally, I always feel that.
Speaker 4:Yeah, unbelievable yeah.
Speaker 2:Often my EMDR supervisor would put ask in like a moment, like that she would say what does that make you believe about yourself? You know, like if you felt better when now, what do you believe about yourself?
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So it's that like internal, like locus, oh yeah. God, that's so nice. And then you have it and you can even like go back to it.
Speaker 2:So nice. That is so nice. I love that. I do feel that like this is why we're therapists like feeling that like when you learn to like you don't need to control and you can trust. It's like God. There's like nothing more empowering than that. And weirdly, you have to actually engage with that uncertainty. Mm-hmm, you know, like trying to even think like maybe all of us can think about this, like is there an uncertainty right now in your life that it's like okay, I could Everything, kelly, everything I know. I'm like trying to think something. Maybe that's really bothering me Like lately. I'm sure Josh maybe could list off the things that are bothering me.
Speaker 3:I have an uncertainty that I don't know if the lamp would maybe look better if I moved it elsewhere. But I think you should keep talking and thinking about your own uncertainty would it look better. You have to sit with that because you can't move in the middle of the pod I was sitting with it for a while, but now I'm gonna get up and move it wait, wait.
Speaker 4:I'm gonna ask you, josh, I'm gonna ask you to notice. Wait, this is actually good, this is good, okay, okay.
Speaker 4:So you have this like you have this feeling that feels uncomfortable okay, well, so I have three therapists so the other thing I really like to do with uncertainty is just make space for it and walk someone through the experience of making space for the discomfort in your body. And so sometimes, when and this is really like I do this exercise a million times for literally everything, but when you're uncertain, can you, when you're feeling this agitation, let's say I'm like, is it going to look better, is it not going to look better? I want to figure it out now. Whatever it is, it's like if that feeling had a location and had a color in your body, what and where would it be?
Speaker 3:Red in my chest.
Speaker 4:And like is it fuzzy? Is it cement? Is it Cement, cement, okay.
Speaker 3:Definitely. I've said that. I've said my face feels like concrete. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so the red cement feeling kind of in your chest, and now maybe take a couple deep breaths and just like, notice that feeling, imagine that feeling.
Speaker 4:Imagine that feeling. And I want you to think about sending oxygen to that part of your body and just kind of think about making space for that feeling rather than trying to do something that's going to get rid of the feeling. We know that that feeling always ends up coming back in some way for something else another time, and so we're just going to make space for that feeling. And then sometimes I do this other stuff where I'm like and if you want, you can put your hand over that part of you that feels that feeling. It kind of gets a little woo-woo and you can kind of send yourself like kind energy, loving energy for it's hard to sit with that feeling and like kind of reminding yourself like I'm here with you as you have to sit through that feeling. Can you just kind of breathe into it rather than doing anything about the feeling? You're still looking at the light. No, you're not Okay.
Speaker 3:I was thinking about how this will probably really be a great clip to like promote the show for this week, which is ironic because I wanted to move the light toward the clip oh my gosh, did you feel?
Speaker 4:did you do the exercise? I did do the exercise. Did it feel uncomfortable? No, it felt really like, oh, really like a oh see, I always think like that's kind of interesting, right like you're practicing acceptance, and oftentimes we think acceptance is just going to be really uncomfortable.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 4:And it's interesting right that you didn't actually move the light and you felt like a little more peace and the light is still maybe bothering you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'll probably move it like after this segment.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and that's okay. Yeah, because we all have to look beautiful, gorgeous in this video. But no, I like that, I really like that. Give it that texture, give it that color. That really is that established compassion with the part.
Speaker 4:I think that's great and you can use it in a hundred different ways of just making space for the feeling. I mean it's not different than I like. We all do that in some way, totally yeah.
Speaker 1:One thing that I want to get back to is I love when some psychodynamic therapist drops a dime on us.
Speaker 2:I know because I feel, like I was trained in that yeah and I, I love someone who's just straight psychodynamic and then they just say a nugget and you're like oh right, like I think about this a lot where it's like if that person believes that they're worthless, you have to live there with them in that space.
Speaker 2:You cannot ask them to leave it until they're ready and it's like that's so true you have to really stay in the dark place, engage with that. That's true of anything uncertainty, ugliness, like shadow, anything like we all have to like go through it as a person, as a person supporting a person, and it's, it's hard but I feel like what you're speaking to, though, too, is pretty seamless.
Speaker 1:It or at least it seems at first blush like seamless into more of like acceptance and commitment therapy yeah, because there's the functional contextualism part of it, which is in any context of behavior is going to serve a function, and so if you eliminate that behavior or if you reduce it right, it's serving some sort of function. So there's something behind that that's gonna you're gonna have to deal with right um, so I could see how those two can very well go together yeah I was thinking about mine.
Speaker 2:I was like well, we're all classically trained in dbt like why would I say classically yeah, sure, like we're musicians or something?
Speaker 4:we're classically trained dbt there, because you were probably psychodynamic dbt right well somewhere in there. No, I mean, I really did do a lot of the psychodynamic classes, psychodynamic classes, but I really and I feel like all my supervisors in school and then my clinical internship, whatever 20 years Like.
Speaker 1:I just feel like there's so much more psychodynamic stuff, but maybe I'm just not exposed to it as much.
Speaker 2:I feel like I had half and half probably. Yeah, I don't know. I was.
Speaker 4:I took a course in ACT, but I was adamant that I did not want to take. You had a class in ACT oh yeah, and I liked that a lot, but I would not take a class in CBT, which I do still feel that way. But I mean not that I wouldn't take a class in CBT, but it didn't interest me.
Speaker 2:And now I think it's kind of interesting that I'm an exposure therapist, which is a lot closer to cbt that it is to psychodynamic therapy. But, um yeah, like exposure therapy and I think this about dbt like sometimes I think it's like a, a real combo of like this idea of like sure, our thoughts have an impact on our mood and like well-being, but there is this like ethereal piece right that like exposure takes in, act, takes in parts, work, takes in, emdr takes in where it's like where do you just like sit with reality as it is? And I think cbt might be the modality that doesn't really address that quite as much like so much of life is acceptance.
Speaker 2:That's such an important thing and, yeah, I feel like, I feel like all the work the three of us do is like premised on that, you know, and it's like the, the problem solving, almost of course it exists, it like, I think, almost always comes after, you know, because then you problem solve the right thing, the proper things. You know, if you accept that you can't control the weather, you can bring an umbrella, you can bring a raincoat, you can like tinker with the many parts of reality that actually are mobile and controllable, and accepting the larger reality.
Speaker 2:And I think, yeah, cbt, probably it's more just like change your thoughts and then your reality can change, but, of course, like sometimes I am helping people like reframe a thought, you know if it works, go for it totally just for some people it doesn't right and it depends probably on whatever uncertainty you are facing, right, if it is like does my hair look better?
Speaker 4:like this or like this.
Speaker 2:You know it's like you're never gonna even, you're never gonna know that it's kind of a reframe of sorts toward the uncertainty exactly.
Speaker 4:It's like a specific type of yeah right framed thought, I guess yeah, it's like you're never gonna know, so does it is it worth your energy to futz with it.
Speaker 1:It's like no, but then some other people might be like yes, you know and like maybe need more yeah, this maybe has nothing to do with what we're talking about, but if somebody comes to you right off the bat, mia, and it's like how they're uncertain that it's going to work quote-unquote therapy how much? Certainty do you give that like, how, like, just from?
Speaker 4:jump street.
Speaker 1:They're like yeah, I need to work with you, but you need to talk like 10 set, 20, whatever like yeah, that definitely happens.
Speaker 4:What do you? How do you?
Speaker 1:navigate that Cause. There's a level where I'm sure there's the psycho ed piece, right, but you're also not giving them like a guarantee, obviously, but I don't know.
Speaker 4:Well, it's interesting, Like you have to have people engaging in exposure therapy sign a consent form specifically for exposure therapy.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 4:And in that consent it's like there's no guarantee that this is going to work which I think is maybe in all of our consent forms, maybe sure some way, um, but it's in like 32 fonts, yeah right but I don't know. No, it's really not.
Speaker 1:I don't know what has actually brought the consent form, but I do wonder if they're maybe reading it you just throw it up there you said um but there's such a level of uncertainty on top of everything, I really understand Like I would not be engaging in exposure therapy.
Speaker 4:I would not be saying, okay, I'm going to like as a client. I would not be saying, okay, I'm going to go do all these things, torture myself for what Like for this to not work Like you gotta be kidding me?
Speaker 4:Yes, people ask, but I think what I'm hoping to do is experientially show them how it works with a low level exposure. Like I'm not asking you to, let's start off, and I'll kind of explain that exposure therapy is part of the gold standard for treatment for X, y and Z, so I can kind of say like yeah, there's a lot of evidence that it's really helpful. We have no guarantee, like, how anything is going to turn out. Would you be willing to give it a try? We can start with this. I want this experience to be gradual. I always say like this is not fear factor. You're in a bathtub of snakes, like like flooding or like no.
Speaker 4:I just there's. No, I personally it's not how I work.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 4:So I think once I say like this is really focused on how you want to live your life, like I don't need to make you do all these things for the sake of you just being uncomfortable it's going to be really intentional around what you want your life to look like, how you want your life to be expanded, then I think they're they're curious enough to try, and have you ever revisited that in the in the end of like remember how uncertain you were when you first started this and like what's your takeaway of just this?
Speaker 4:whole process.
Speaker 1:I wonder like like just the global takeaway of like we're discharging now or we're terminating. I don't know. Yeah, for sure I'd be curious about that.
Speaker 4:It's like I'm trying to think of specific moments, but I feel like I've definitely had moments of like where someone started versus when they leave, I mean that's why exposure therapy is so fun as the exposure therapist, because you do see so much progress.
Speaker 2:You just see like life opening up. Yeah, that's so nice.
Speaker 1:Yeah, expanding, that was a great word Like their life expanding, you know?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I've worked with people where the uncertainty about therapy, like isn't something we get past and that's okay. Maybe one day they will with someone else, more than most likely, but yet that can be an interesting thing. You know how do I fully engage with this without knowing it's going to help me?
Speaker 4:it's really vulnerable it's really effortful.
Speaker 2:I don't know you I don't trust you you're bad with your schedule, which I am, and yeah, yeah, it's an interesting like sort of have to honor that. It's like it's true, you know.
Speaker 4:And I would, be provided it's interesting for that question right, because there's some level of like seeking reassurance.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 4:And sometimes I think like, even if I know it's reassurance seeking, I can't always intervene right away until we've done enough education on what reassurance seeking is and like are you willing to refrain from it and this and that? So even if I know in that moment that's reassurance seeking and like future me would say I don't know, I can't guarantee any outcome. Right, that's not the approach I would be taking early on yeah we haven't agreed upon those terms yet.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what you'd say early might be different. Yeah, I think lately I feel like with uncertainty too. Sometimes I'll engage with the uncertain part and then ask like, are there any other parts that feel differently? And then it's like one will pop up and say you know, I really want to do this and my friend did it and it's great and I want to be that person.
Speaker 4:I'm hopeful.
Speaker 2:And then I'll say like, okay, what does your uncertain part think of that? You? Know and sometimes they'll get somewhere, but sometimes it's pretty stubborn. So funny Like there's so many uncertainties, like I just don't want to sit with. Like I'm like thinking about my day even, just like not knowing. I have a lot of new clients. It's like not knowing how that's gonna go with them. Feeling anxious about that. Yeah, like trying to control it, trying to like plan certain things before going into meeting with them. Yeah, like all these control moves.
Speaker 4:So tough.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:When I was a newer exposure therapist, I used to pre-plan what exposures. I'd want to do with someone before I would go into their session and that is like so, not how I work now. And it's just funny to think about. Like some person came in saying I want to work on this and I'm like, oh shoot, that's definitely different than what I had planned. Like, what do I do? What do I do?
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, my goodness yeah. How rare is it to have two people who were friends growing up become therapists. I know you two grew up together.
Speaker 2:Yes, we grew up together. Our moms met when they were pregnant. My mom told me that is wild.
Speaker 4:But I can't even remember and you can remember most things how did we come to this conclusion? I know how I personally came to this conclusion, but I don't remember it being like a Kelly and Mia decision together.
Speaker 2:Well, I do remember, I remember we both majored in psychology and we were into it and you did and we were into it. We were into it Classically trained, yeah, because we didn't go to the same college, so it's not like we were studying psychology together in college. Or grad school, but I think you, we both were studying psychology and we were in contact a lot and we were talking on the phone constantly and instant messenger probably we were we've always been phone chatters we are just phone chatters.
Speaker 4:Pick it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love it yeah old school yeah, um, and you, we were like you were doing research. I think you worked at a group home.
Speaker 2:Yeah, in college and I did like personality research and we were like thinking about different like different, like paths with psychology, getting different kinds of advice. And I remember like my mentor in college was like kind of was like giving me advice, like assuming that I was going to try to go to a PhD program, and like when I was listening to the advice shout out to Dr Oldman's he was great but he was giving advice to like a younger version of himself and not really like asking me my own actual specific interest.
Speaker 2:Cause he said something where he was like I mean want to get into grad school, he's giving me advice. He's like I mean no one's gonna ignore a perfect GRE score.
Speaker 4:I remember he said that I was like who's getting a perfect in this room, like not me, that's hilarious.
Speaker 2:I was sort of like I wouldn't even bother, with enough studying for that, like I knew myself like no way. That's amazing, and so I was like, oh, that's who he thinks is like sitting in front of him and I was like, okay, and then you would talk to someone.
Speaker 4:Well, a social worker fast forward. I talked my Gary was a social worker Fast forward. I talked to my Gary who was a social worker yes. I brought my GRE flashcards to study abroad. That's where my head was at. I don't know that I actually pulled them out, but I was like I have to do whatever it was. But I talked to Gary and I think because I worked in different places where there were so many PhDs like so many labs psychology labs at a big 10 university, like that's your experience.
Speaker 4:Then I thought that was the only route to go. And when I talked to Gary he's like okay, you know, laying it all this many years to learn research, but you're not. You don't want to be a researcher. So, instead, you could do this for less years. And he's kept writing LCSW on the piece of paper. I'm like Gary doesn't have a clue. He keeps trying to get me to be a social worker, like he's nuts.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And then and I remember like maybe it was him, Was he a social worker himself? He was also a social worker. So cause? Remember then you were like debating, we were talking about side programs and he and I'll never forget this because this influenced me and of course, it influenced you he was like why would you? He's like you could go to social work school for two years and have made a hundred thousand dollars, instead of just spent an extra hundred thousand dollars.
Speaker 4:And I was like well he like if you look at yourself 25 years from now the extra money you'd make and I feel really bad if anyone would decide to do that and maybe PsyDs would disagree with us completely.
Speaker 4:Yeah totally, and they can't charge more, I'm sure they're getting a lot of wonderful training and they are, yeah, able to charge more. It's like, at the end of the day, your debt is probably covering the amount of extra money that you're charging and you'll get life experience. Yeah, that will you know. Take over that time. So, yeah, gary, really did actually know what he was talking about.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, and I'm so happy with the social work degree.
Speaker 4:Yes, yeah, it's great yeah, so we figured it out together.
Speaker 2:So we did figure it out I remember we were both like boots on the ground, like I was interviewing people. I was like asking anyone who would listen like, what do you think this? Versus this versus this because, as you know, you're lcpc, that's another route you can go right so how did you decide that, as opposed to like social, yeah, I mean, I think it was.
Speaker 1:I mean it was all just like how do I get to private practice? And once people start saying last years you can still do private practice, I was like I'm in, like I have to. You know, it was like once the nuts and bolts of it came through of like, well, you can do private practice, you don't need to spend.
Speaker 4:It was so interesting. You're like, north star was private practice. Yeah, it was Wow, I know, and then you're such a group guy, I'm such a group guy and not a private practice.
Speaker 1:And then, when I started to do private practice. It was like man this feels so isolating to me. Yeah.
Speaker 4:And it.
Speaker 1:Just I just don't think it was the right time for me to do. I was doing it to get my feet wet and like try it out, like on the weekends, and like it wasn't like a full-time gig. But I was just like this isn't really. You know, I was. I just didn't. I wasn't feeling it at the time.
Speaker 4:So I'm not closed off to it, I think.
Speaker 1:I would still do it, but. But that's what made me kind of say well, no, of course I'm not going to spend more years in school. If I can do this, my main objective is to just be meeting with people and like doing the work you know. I didn't really care about the title or anything or being called doctor, or doing research, or like that.
Speaker 2:I still insist. All my clients call me doctor.
Speaker 3:Well, you should Even though I don't have a doctorate.
Speaker 2:No, it is funny when clients will call you. I think maybe I said this on the pod right. I had a client and I was like I think I'm gonna um refer you to a psychiatrist. And they were like, well, what the hell are you? I was like, oh, I'm actually a social worker that's always a tough correction to make.
Speaker 1:Oh, I hate to tell, to tell you, I have to tell you, but I did also choose a program also, now that I'm thinking about it, like I wanted to do like, at least learn how to do like testing and batteries.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So like the the masters I got in clinical psych had that like track where you could do that and I was really like, oh, I want to like know that, or at least know how to read a report yeah, do that, and I was really like oh, I want to like know that, or at least know how to read a report. Yeah, with some sort of like base knowledge of, like if I ever had to read a psychological battery, if I was ever in practice or somebody recorded somebody and had that which you rarely get, those but um you know, in my mind back then.
Speaker 1:I was like I should know how to do that so yeah, plus, then you get to like test your friends, because who else?
Speaker 2:yeah, then you get to do like thematic app perception tests and you get to completely miss war shock it is impossible to score.
Speaker 1:It's really hard to score.
Speaker 2:But it's fun to give. Yeah, oh are they. They're actually pretty hard to interpret.
Speaker 1:Well, the scoring is it's a very odd system which I don't know how evidence-based it is. I always found the thematic app perception test, where you just show a picture and then have people just talk about what's happening. I always thought that was much more fascinating as a projective measure.
Speaker 2:That is so interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like to have it be generative rather than yeah, I mean the rorschach's cool like because it's like seen in all the movies or like people you know, so you finally get the cards in front of you. You're like can't wait to show somebody this but then when? You actually get to the scoring of it, you're like oh, I don't know. Well, at least for me, yeah wait.
Speaker 2:Speaking of scoring, this is making me think I was just talking with my Wait. Speaking of scoring, this is making me think I was just talking with my EMDR supervisor about SUD rating and OCD clients with EMDR and she said a lot of her OCD clients with SUD. She won't have them do like 0 to 10. She'll be like medium.
Speaker 1:What's a SUD Kelly? Sud is subjective units of distress. There we go.
Speaker 2:So yeah, like in EMDR you only reprocess things that have like a sud to them, so a memory if they engage with the memory. If they feel active distress in the present moment, then you reprocess it or continue reprocessing it. But I have a couple situations that I've come across where the rating was hard. Yeah, for various reasons like neurodivergent sometimes it's like that or or yeah, with like perfectionism and whatever. But yeah, like she was like a lot of times, I'll say like is it strong? Is it medium.
Speaker 3:Is it?
Speaker 2:like none at all and not use any actual numbers. Do you do?
Speaker 4:that, yeah, I, I, my baseline is to use one through 10, but depending on if someone has certain feelings around certain numbers which makes them hard to give an accurate score, or if they, you know, if they're like I hate the number four, like then they don't want to write it, or something like that, sometimes we can work through that.
Speaker 4:But sometimes I also say, like those numbers don't actually matter, like I think there's also what I get more often, I see, as someone who is um, wanting to be really accurate with how they're describing something and not being sure, like is that a seven? Well, on a good day it's a seven, but on a bad day it could be a 10, which is true. And so then I'll do kind of like these numbers don't really matter, like we're just going to kind of decide your exposures and see what you're open to that day and if your anxiety kind of goes up or if it goes down or if it stays kind of the same. Like kind of like no trends. But I'm not a um habituation, straight habituation exposure therapist, where if you are scared of dogs and you're a 10, you have to keep petting the dog until you're a five it's not my it's not my passion, got it.
Speaker 4:It's not my route, so the numbers don't matter too much to me. The takeaway matters, which is a different type of exposure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, a different way of doing it. Totally so interesting. That'd be even helpful for me where it's like don't even think about it, just think like like something true, is something false, or is it somewhere in the middle. Yeah, yeah, okay, well, uncertainty, any other lingering thoughts we have about uncertainty. Does anyone feel healed by this conversation?
Speaker 1:I do a little bit it's a lot to think about. Yes, yeah very insightful yeah we get, we got to do a whole another episode with me on reassurance because that was like man, I'm giving reassurance left and right to people and then when you start talking to me, you're like, oh god, I need to stop this, I have a problem.
Speaker 4:The interesting thing is that Vijay.
Speaker 3:Now I don't want to quote Vijay and misquote him, but I remember him saying like don't?
Speaker 4:we want to give them reassurance. And he's right, yeah.
Speaker 3:In a relationship.
Speaker 4:Think about it. Like there's times where I'm going to give you reassurance, I'm not going to withhold it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, sure.
Speaker 4:It's only you know. It's like washing your hands isn't a problem, unless in some moments it is a problem, unless it's a problem Right, so it's like you can give reassurance.
Speaker 1:And I think that's just the nature of maybe the patients that I worked with, where it was like the reassurance wasn't the problem I was still giving it, but it was just eye-opening of how much I was giving it and how much it's like well, that's not having worked with you in the past, but also some of your staff back then in the past. Like I'm not thinking about this enough. I need to be thinking about how I'm giving people reassurance.
Speaker 4:You're probably thinking about something else that's also really important. You know it's hard to think about all the things, all the things.
Speaker 2:You know 100%.
Speaker 4:I'm focusing on reassurance, I'm not focusing on something else. That's probably glaring, you know.
Speaker 1:Well, we got to anyway. Yeah, we definitely do. That would be great.
Speaker 2:Oh, now we'll move into our how wise is it question? Our fun. How wise is it question Josh can join us for this. Sure sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so how wise is it to Rewatch a show? Yes, to rewatch a show, so this comes from my wife, sarah, who Shout out, shout out, sarah, and who just loves rewatching a show.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm with Sarah, I mean right away, I'll tell you I love it.
Speaker 1:I don't even know the number of times she's watched the West Wing.
Speaker 4:Jimmy, your husband. He rewatches it, every he rewatches it every night he's watching it. Oh yeah, sarah and I call it Boston Legal, but I know that's not what it is yeah, she'll go through different seasons, but, and what I mean is like seasons of watching it like, and then she's back on Gilmore Girls oh, I love Gilmore.
Speaker 2:I've seen that a thousand times so anyway.
Speaker 1:So this comes from Sarah. I think I could speak for her in saying from her perspective, it's very wise for a lot of reasons to rewatch shows. But yeah, I'm curious your all y'all's thoughts on that.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, since I'm super pro in here, first from yeah, mia, you might have. What's that reaction?
Speaker 4:Well, I think that it serves a purpose.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:I will rewatch a show if it's background.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 4:Like if I want to do something else and I don't want to pay attention.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 4:I'll put the show on that I've seen.
Speaker 1:Because if it's not in the background, it's just comfortable. Yeah.
Speaker 4:It's like I can walk out of the room. I can go, change a load of laundry and come back up. I'm not worried about what I'm missing. I'm not going to pause the show. It doesn't take a lot of mental energy. Yeah, I can do something else while I'm watching the show. I wouldn't sit down and like everything is put away and I'm just re-watching a show.
Speaker 2:I've already seen what would happen if you did I would crawl out of my skin, you would.
Speaker 4:No, I mean, maybe I feel, feel like Broad City, like that I could do. Yeah, like that I have rewatched.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we rewatched that recently. Yeah, it's great.
Speaker 4:But that one I almost feel like I needed two or three times to really like notice it's got so much.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4:But, yeah, it would be boredom of like, okay, now I need to go do something else too, I am a multitasker, stay busy kind of person.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:I would never re-listen to a podcast that I've already heard.
Speaker 2:Oh, I've listened to some like hundreds of times. That's so interesting. Yeah, I can re. I almost think it's like a Soothing.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I can re-watch, re-listen, re-watch movies, listen to a song on repeat. Oh yeah, Josh used to make fun of me that I listened to it. My favorite podcast is called the dough boys, which is like people would not guess that, but it's like a comedy podcast. These two comedians review chain restaurants. It's so fucking funny. And I listened to the one where they actually don't review a restaurant. They reviewed the movie deep blue sea. Josh is like are you listening to that again?
Speaker 2:deep blue sea it's so funny, that episode I think you listened to it like 10 nights in a row wow, yeah, it's like comforting and funny and it's very like the topic is so soothing because it's like if everything's going on in the world, they're just talking about an old movie from like their early aughts right it's like it's a completely inconsequential movie. There's a lot of funny takes on it to like focus myself on.
Speaker 4:It is so soothing do you know what they're about to say before they say it like? Are you anticipating a joke?
Speaker 2:on those episodes that I've listened to like 20 times. Yes, yeah, but I still laugh. I still think it's funny. Yeah, yeah, it's like maybe I don't get bored with that or maybe it's like the soothing mechanism outweighs the board, because there are things I've rewatched where I'm like absolutely not, this is so boring to rewatch. I'm trying to think what that would be.
Speaker 1:I'm a bad TV watcher. I'm just not good at it Like first watch. I just don't watch a lot of it. A lot of people will say watch this or this is really good, and then I'm like I'm so far behind I can never catch up, so I just don't even bother, but I would rewatch a movie. What do you think?
Speaker 1:I think it's more effortful to like rewatch a show for some reason for me Totally, because there's so many episodes in a season and yeah there's also a part of me that wants to say this is not founded in any fact, but I feel like there were certain shows I watched that I was like I almost have to put put it in the vault and be like it's going to be ruined if I rewatch it again yeah does that? Resonate with anybody, yeah in any way like I don't know why.
Speaker 4:I'm thinking of like your honor, like a show where you kind of like, like a show where you're like I laughing, like a show where you're like I don't even know what that show is.
Speaker 3:It seems like it would be awful to rewatch, just like banging the gavel. Everyone keeps getting sued and it's like a fucking snooze.
Speaker 4:I don't even remember, whatever it's like some, some judge's son commits a crime and you're trying to figure things out, or whatever. But I just wonder son commits a crime and you're trying to figure things out, or whatever okay but I just wonder if, like a film where you're trying to figure out, or a movie where you're trying to figure out like who's the killer? Yeah, that was necessarily it for that show, but I guess I'm thinking of that like would that be a show?
Speaker 2:oh, zodiac. I've re-watched like 20 times I love zodiac.
Speaker 1:That is a great movie I would re-watch that right I love
Speaker 2:it.
Speaker 3:I mean that to me is like and that's to figure out who the killer is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but, yeah, but it's a place it's the scene.
Speaker 1:I feel like it's just, it's a classic piece, yeah police procedural film yeah, but like david fincher right yeah, I just I don't know, maybe it's the effort part, if I put so much effort into a show and actually watch all the seasons, which I've done that very rarely but like like I don't want to go back and watch Mad Men.
Speaker 2:We just did and I highly recommend it. No, I'm torn.
Speaker 1:You like rewatching it, I'm torn Because it's like it's a masterpiece.
Speaker 2:Yeah, top five, here's a masterpiece Top five.
Speaker 3:Here's a question Rewatching your Honor. Rewatching I don't even know how to phrase this into a question. Am I directing this to Mia? If it were a show that you love that you've watched by yourself or with someone else, would you ever want to rewatch it with your spouse? Who hasn't? Who hasn't seen it? Because I feel like a lot of the time.
Speaker 2:I get so much nachas, as we say in Judaism We've both done it, we've both done it with shows that we've individually watched.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and then either like you hadn't seen Twin Peaks. Yes, that's probably my favorite show. I loved watching that with you yeah, me too and like I guess I could sit down to rewatch it by myself, but like it's a good excuse to kind of watch it with someone who's never seen it I feel like we have done that.
Speaker 4:But yeah, you know, when you're like watching a show at the same time like with someone, and then you actually end up watching part of an episode, and then when they join you, you have to like restart it.
Speaker 1:Like I cannot tolerate those 10 minutes of re-watching something I've just watched oh, oh wow so I don't think I, I just think I don't like it, yeah yeah, it's just so boring I'm like I'm gonna yeah I know that with sarah, she's re-watching ted lasso with me because she just enjoys it so much and I never watched it um yeah, and so that's what for her is like super an enjoyable experience yes, is she like watching?
Speaker 1:you watch it I think there are moments of that, but I think she truly enjoys it, yeah, that much that she's like in it and I I love how excited she gets when she's like this is one of my favorite episodes. Like before we start it, like this is one of my favorite and I'm not like it doesn't like move the needle in terms of like well, if it's not great, I'm like disappointed or anything like that.
Speaker 2:I just truly enjoy that she's enjoying it as well, it just adds a different layer to it, totally of the rewatch most of the time it's me having watched a show yeah, making you watch it. But I also think part of me doing that is like there's so many shitty tv shows and movies. There's so many good ones, there's so many shitty ones that sometimes, especially if josh is like away and I'm by myself watching something, I almost like more often watch an old thing, because I'm like such a gamble like these, like new netflix movies I'm like you can't tell from the trailer at all if it's going to be any good.
Speaker 1:So just go back to original Housewives and re-watch some of that, right.
Speaker 2:I'm having this experience with books, too. Like I just finished a series I really liked and like they're suggesting these other series that are like this series. They're nothing like this series. They're bad. I'm like, oh, I'm just like I wish. I could could, like, erase my brain and go back and reread a book. I will reread a book, yeah, but I usually need more space from it than I would a movie not lately.
Speaker 3:You read you reread that rebecca yaros twice. I know I didn't reread it in a month.
Speaker 2:Well, that was because I was going through a hard time I feel like I need something comforting. I was just like I need something that's like absorbing me. I said that too. I was like, don't make fun of me, I just need to do this.
Speaker 3:I know, and now I'm making fun of you on live television.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I had to reread it. It's, it's. It was just like it's. Like I've said it before on the podcast, it's with like small themes.
Speaker 2:I was like I just have to read this and reading it the second time, I did tell you I'm like I'm actually getting sick of these two. I'm pretty sick of these two, but it was comforting. Yeah, it's like rereading stuff I enjoy or rewatching, relistening. Yeah, it takes a lot of listens for me to be like I cannot tolerate another second of this. Yeah, it takes a lot of listens for me to be like I cannot tolerate another second of this.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I'm kind of jealous of this. Yeah, I wish I had more of that, because you need constant new content, which is challenging.
Speaker 2:That is challenging.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:But I did just finish the Pit and it was very good. Is that with Noah Wiley?
Speaker 2:My mom said that's really good. I don't know anyone's name, noah.
Speaker 4:Wiley, my mom said that's really good.
Speaker 1:I don't know anyone's name. No, wiley, yeah, from ER.
Speaker 4:From.
Speaker 1:ER. Oh yes, he's back in the ER.
Speaker 4:He is with a different doctor name. No, it was really really good we gotta watch that movie.
Speaker 2:Somebody was really into that.
Speaker 1:I think I brought that up in a previous episode. Somebody was really into that on a plane that I was on just like go on through those episodes do you ever? I could not watch from behind someone sometimes I just I had, and I was like that's no wiley, like what is that? And then I looked on like some of the streaming services that like what they were showing and I think that was one of them.
Speaker 1:Oh god or like what, whatever the airline was offering, and I was like, oh, I didn't even realize he was in a new show again. I'm so behind on that stuff but, yeah, I was like is he being a doctor again?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah. Well, this person was into it like riding a bike, like exactly are you guys watching the bear?
Speaker 1:no, but people love. That is the new season out no, we just started it I started it.
Speaker 4:Yeah, didn't hook me like the pit yeah, it's good.
Speaker 2:Have you watched it? Yeah?
Speaker 1:are these spoilers?
Speaker 2:I can kind of frustrate me, to be honest. Like it's melodramatic, it's like up its own ass. I like it, I like love it, and it's up its own ass, like truly, you know, like you're just like, yeah, but there's so many moments and episodes where, like, I get fired up and I'm into it, but there's a lot of annoying parts. We're like three episodes in.
Speaker 3:I think three or four are we in the middle of four?
Speaker 1:yeah yeah, that takes place in chicago, right? Yeah, they had like a look-alike contest for people to dress up like that guy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, so funny um I would reread a book I've done that before, but only like very impactful ones. Yeah, really good books yeah, yeah, I said to josh when I was like rereading the book that I said was now bad. I was like I just had a moment where I really miss intermezzo. Did you guys read intermezzo, the sally Rooney book?
Speaker 3:Mm-mm.
Speaker 2:It's so wonderful. This book is so beautiful. There's nothing like it. It's amazing. I'll lend it to you if you want. It's so good, we have it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I have it. Josh read it too. It's a physical copy.
Speaker 2:Have you ever read any Sally Rooney? You want it? No, yeah, maybe I would.
Speaker 4:I was listening to your podcast about not being on your phone last week.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we didn't do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you guys didn't do it.
Speaker 1:I was hoping we were going to bypass that None of us did it, but leave it to Mia.
Speaker 4:Yeah, your biggest listener.
Speaker 1:Your biggest listener. I'm kidding, I was going to wait until the very end, I didn't do it I didn't do it, I forgot, I know we it. I didn't do it, I forgot, I know we got to do it.
Speaker 2:I should have done it too, because what does that say about? Us yeah what, what do we? What do we know about? We completely avoided yeah, that's avoided so well that I mean I blocked it out exactly.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that it was even a thing I was listening to the podcast while I was on a walk and I said you know what? You can't fully do it because you're my um app for for watching James is on my phone. But I'm like, if you can do everything other than that app, you have to have the phone in your room for the app. Yes, or you don't have to, because when we were children, no one was looking at us.
Speaker 1:Nobody was looking at us, but there was at least probably the audio monitor, maybe.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think so Something. But anyways, yeah, I thought, okay, the audio monitor, maybe not maybe, yeah, I think so, yeah, but anyways?
Speaker 1:yeah, I thought, but are you saying?
Speaker 4:your mind immediately jumped to like an excuse as to why you couldn't do no my mind was like, okay, you're listening to this, you have one day before you're gonna see him. You'll do it tonight. Oh, easiest pie. And then I didn't. I was actually. I thought of it and I was scrolling on my phone like it was really interesting. I thought yeah no, big deal. One night.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what are these two talking?
Speaker 2:about. We don't even realize the attachment.
Speaker 4:Exactly.
Speaker 2:That's just it. It's like I'm so attached I don't even have the awareness at that hour that it's like, oh, you're sucked to your phone.
Speaker 3:Exactly.
Speaker 2:Stop, it's just like scroll, scroll, scroll.
Speaker 1:I mean scroll scroll. I mean I was in a hotel room in manison with my whole family. I could have just put it in the bathroom and that might have counted like.
Speaker 4:What do I need my phone for? I'm sleeping in a room with my family all the people. Are you under your covers looking at your phone, I was not even it wasn't even registering that this should be a shit.
Speaker 1:I didn't even think about it within the week. I feel like I'm in that much denial of trying to do it.
Speaker 2:We could try it again. I might do better if we schedule it, give us another week.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's so funny.
Speaker 4:There's a day, or do you need to make a different goal? I've had to pre-deny this whole time. Lower the goalpost or if it doesn't work this week, then maybe we need to revisit a different goal you know why I knew?
Speaker 1:you didn't do it why I feel like if you had done it it would have been one of the first things you would have brought up when I walked in here, totally because you would have wanted to process it with me yeah, I'm 100, anything that happens to me. Yeah, exactly, you would have been like, like john, I did the phone thing, tell me about it, you know.
Speaker 2:So I was like I was gonna wait, because I was, and I would have been so fucking proud of myself.
Speaker 3:I didn't do it.
Speaker 2:I didn't do it no, I'm glad you brought it up.
Speaker 1:I was going to bring it up at the end but okay, so none of us did it.
Speaker 2:It'll be homework again.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally and for everybody else out there who didn't do it or write us in.
Speaker 2:Call in yeah, let us know if you did that inspire us to do it yeah, yeah, yeah, tell us how you got it done. How did you get it? You remembered?
Speaker 1:where'd you bury that thing?
Speaker 2:in the backyard. Yeah really, oh my god have your person in your house, hide it somewhere yeah, I remember when I moved into like two apartments ago or three apartments ago or something, um, my internet didn't work for like a whole day and I, I, I almost like burned the place down I was like I, I, I, my mom's, like you can come over, Like I couldn't stay one night, Didn't you still have self-service?
Speaker 2:I had self-service but like for some reason I couldn't really get any real internet entertainment going. Maybe like the service or the whatever was like not good.
Speaker 1:How or whatever was not good. I mean, I'm laughing at that because it's so frustrating when that shit doesn't work.
Speaker 4:It's hell. What do you do?
Speaker 2:It was hell Anyway.
Speaker 1:We're uncertain if we're going to accomplish this, but we're going to try again another week.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, this was great. Thank you so much for joining us. It was so fun.
Speaker 4:How does it feel I faced my fears. It was fun, it was great. Yeah, I loved seeing how was this exposure?
Speaker 3:it was good. What's your takeaway?
Speaker 4:my takeaway is you don't have to pre-plan. Well, okay, what I learned is that I didn't have to pre-plan in order to be able to generate things to talk about there you go. And my takeaway is I can trust myself in anxiety provoking situations.
Speaker 2:I love that.
Speaker 3:Love it, amen, amen, amen.
Speaker 2:Josh and I were arguing over like what's more realistic to say amen or amen in a TV show and we realized this is like a Jewish Christian thing. So I was like amen is more what you actually say I think that's a Chicago thing, isn't it? Amen. But I feel like, you know, think about someone going amen, you know, to a point, oh, okay, yeah, that's different and then Josh was like but amen, and I the Hebrew, yeah, oh, amen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, mm-hmm, baruch atah, baruch, atah. Baruch, atah Baruch, atah Baruch, atah Baruch atah Baruch, atah, yeah, there's more of that. Amen.
Speaker 3:More of those vowels, mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:Yeah, anyway, anyway, we settled that and we settled everything else.
Speaker 1:We yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So any plugs for you, mia, before we go. Oh, yeah, so.
Speaker 4:I'm a therapist at Lumira Psychotherapy, so you can find my website at Lumira L-U-M-I-R-A. Psychotherapycom. Nice, Okay.
Speaker 2:And I am Kelly, as I said earlier, and if you want to reach me, if you want to send in questions or comments about the pod topics, if you want to work with me, you can find me at kkpsychotherapycom and there's an inquiry page there. You can send me an inquiry. And what about you, jonah?
Speaker 1:Always email me at butts b-u-t-z dot. Jonathan at gmail dot com.
Speaker 3:Josh joshbearfilms dot com. Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 1:That's it, bear like the aspirin Bear.
Speaker 3:like the aspirin. Josh, like the Josh.
Speaker 1:And always.
Speaker 2:Thank you to Blanket Forts for the music.
Speaker 1:Thank you to Blanket Forts. We look forward to seeing everybody.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Take care everyone.
Speaker 1:Good luck with those phones.
Speaker 2:Good luck with those phones.
Speaker 1:with that practice We'll see if any of us do it, okay, take care everybody.
Speaker 2:Bye the wise mind happy hour podcast is for entertainment purposes only, not to be treated as medical advice. If you are struggling with your mental health, please seek medical attention or counseling.