The Wise Mind Happy Hour
Two therapists musing about the idea of an inner wise mind and how to connect with this psychic space in different contexts.
The Wise Mind Happy Hour
Finding Wisdom in REJECTION
We've all been rejected...but is it wise? Or better yet...how can one find themselves in the midst of rejection? Whether it's dating, career-related, or getting rejected by your own children, we all face rejection on a day-to-day basis. So let's talk about it.
- music by blanket forts -
welcome everyone to the wise mind happy hour hello I'm kelly and I'm john, and, yes, welcome. Um. Today we're gonna be talking about a few things.
Speaker 4:Well, really, we're mostly gonna be talking about rejection rejection
Speaker 1:but, first we'll just check in with each other as josh adjusts our mics. There we go. We'll check in with each other.
Speaker 3:What'sosh adjusts our?
Speaker 1:mics. There we go. We'll check in with each other. What's going on with you? What's new, john?
Speaker 3:well, our last episode we talked about the phone. Yeah, without the phone and I did it wow, all right round of applause. I'm clapping myself applause and I did it because of a mistake. So whoa, I know so the universe got you yesterday. Yesterday, um, we planned an outing to the harold washington library. Have you ever been?
Speaker 1:I love that place. It's great. It smells a little weird, but I like it most libraries do.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you think it's the archives I think it's a number of things, yeah but yes um, so we planned an outing and it was, you know, sir, and I and the boys and we get on the red line train and I had left my house on the train and I was gonna look up like I don't know restaurants or something like right around the herald washington library, just in case the kids got hungry. Yeah, didn't have my phone, I just left it at home, which?
Speaker 3:I didn't care oh yeah it was with sarah and the boys okay, but I was like oh, this is a reminder, yeah, here, this is a reminder to do this like, and I didn't even do. I rarely leave the house without my phone, wow.
Speaker 1:I mean the universe got you.
Speaker 3:It did so. I was like, because I was like getting stuff together to go down to the library, I was putting all these books that we had to return and I just forgot, and so went down there and the outing was great. I felt like I was more present.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's great.
Speaker 3:Maybe it was just the library. Yeah, like being in there print and I love being in the library yeah, it's really, really nice. Um, but it was a reminder.
Speaker 1:I was like I gotta do this so the whole day you were son's phone no, I mean I came back.
Speaker 3:I mean this was like late morning, early afternoon, so it was like maybe two hours without it.
Speaker 4:Okay, but it primed me to remember to do it at night, so it was like I gotta do this, I gotta do the challenge.
Speaker 3:Completely unremarkable.
Speaker 1:It was totally fine, it was like normal.
Speaker 3:Normal, yeah, read a book.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 3:You read a book. Okay good, it was totally fine yeah it was a book day. It was a book day, book for digital or digital Book for digital. Yeah, and my kids get me up pretty much at the same time every morning, so it's not like I needed an alarm. It was the weekend, so it was like maybe it was too easy, almost.
Speaker 1:Wow, that is really interesting.
Speaker 3:Because like, right, as you said, like it was the weekend, I'm like, well, well, I guess maybe I should try it on a weekend and I'm like, no, weekend is when I like really get my stuff in. That's so bad. But sarah and I had watched a show like I felt like I got my contents, my digital, whatever I wanted. Right, we watched the show together.
Speaker 1:Ted lasso oh yeah, that's right.
Speaker 3:We're like up to the very last episode okay, cool but I was like okay, I feel I don't know what's the word satiated like I felt like I can go in read and then boom.
Speaker 1:So that's great. And you were tired at the end of ted lasso. Did you feel like sleepy?
Speaker 3:I didn't feel yeah somewhat I felt it felt normal. Okay, I didn't read that much before I was like lights out and I definitely didn't have an urge or an itch to, when it was lights out to be like, oh, I gotta like check something yeah, which was nice, that's great yeah that is great.
Speaker 3:I know what I do it regularly and do. I think it would improve my sleep hygiene. I don't know. Yeah, but I think there were a number of interesting things to notice about it. I think it was a surprise. I didn't miss it.
Speaker 1:That's really great to know. You know, yeah, my fear is like if you did it on a night where, like sleep was tricky you know yeah. That's raw dogging sleep For sure, yeah. And this was a yeah. Yeah, that's raw dogging Sleep For sure, yeah.
Speaker 3:And this was a full day. We did outings, we did you know, so I was definitely tired at the end of the day.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, wow, well, good job, that's amazing.
Speaker 3:Well, thank you Well tell me about how your experience was in. Oh, that's right.
Speaker 2:Pre-show moving, moving right along.
Speaker 3:I haven't had that but, we haven't had that much time in between, and I wouldn't had I not forgotten my phone that's the thing I would have not right. So there, I think, also lies a thing where it's like what is the barrier? Why am I not making this a priority? That was just happenstance, honestly, I know that I even completed it.
Speaker 1:That's amazing. I mean you were really like prompted in a good way, but then you did it. I mean you have to still be willing to do it, which you were, which is great. I mean it's like last night, josh and I were away for the weekend at a film festival for his movie and we were in a hotel and we got the. The screening ended at like 1130, the last one so we got home or got back to the hotel at like 12.
Speaker 1:And I was pretty tired and, as Josh says, it takes me at least 38 minutes to get ready for bed. So, like after doing all of that, I was pretty tired and I didn't use a podcast, I didn't even check my phone and you set your alarm, so I kind of did it. My phone was next to my bed. Oh, I did it too.
Speaker 4:I had my phone plugged in like all the way across the whole diagonal of the room.
Speaker 1:And I said to him I was like you don't want your phone. I didn't even think about this then, when I said this, I was like you don't want your phone.
Speaker 4:And he's like I need to plug him in, I have to charge it and there you go the room. So I guess we kind of did it. We slept. We both slept better than we had any other night. I said I had great rem, rem, yeah, rapid eye movement. I had like vivid dreams and I wonder if it was like almost the phone, something about the phone being so far physically away from me.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Like seven feet, yeah, compared to most nights.
Speaker 1:So far, yeah, so far, it was in the same room.
Speaker 3:But certainly this, and I'm not that much into this type of stuff, but it seems as though somehow we all kind of did it.
Speaker 4:Yeah, we kind of did it. I guess we did it.
Speaker 3:Without intentionality, I mean.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I didn't use my phone at all in the morning because it would be too loud, for Josh in the hotel room was tiny. So it's like, yeah, I had a while there, I felt fine. Didn't feel like groundbreaking, but I felt fine.
Speaker 3:Yeah Right, that was the thing is. I was like, yeah, it's not groundbreaking, which maybe I don't know if I was expecting it to, but I think I was just expecting it to be more difficult. Yeah, expecting it to, but I think I was just expecting it to be more difficult.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and even having it across the room, I think, is pretty much doing the challenge, because it's just not so yeah accessible and you're intentionally like it's across the room and you're intentionally in the bed trying to just like either go to sleep or do something else. That's not your phone related yeah, totally try it out there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, give it a shot. Tell us anyone, especially if you have a groundbreaking experience that'd be interesting to hear about, or if you don't.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Anything.
Speaker 3:But otherwise you guys went to a film festival.
Speaker 1:We did. Yes, we did. I know we talked about it on the pod. We went to the Big Sky Festival. This one was a short festival, indie shorts yeah, indianapolis the heartland film festival is like a sister fest sister fest. Yeah, and yeah, it was great. Um, we got to see a bunch of cool films. Yeah, it was great. It was all short films. It's all short. What?
Speaker 3:what makes a film a short film, like how short is? Is it actually?
Speaker 4:I would have to look this up. This would be a quick Google away. I think the longest you usually see is 40 minutes. Okay, I think 60 minutes or higher is a feature.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 4:I'm also talking out of my ass, but I'm close to the truth here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the 40 minute ones. You're like, wow, I can't believe they're calling this a short Right.
Speaker 3:Because there's some that are five minutes, you know right like but if you saw it at the amc you'd be like, oh my god, so short yeah interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah, it was great. It's kind of a fun environment. I think maybe we said this last time, but you get to meet other filmmakers, other filmmakers. I'm not a filmmaker but you're a filmmaker.
Speaker 4:Your badge said film. I know I got a badge as a filmmaker um.
Speaker 1:We met these two friends who make movies together. They make narrative films and they were great um shout out to omer.
Speaker 4:Yeah, within five minutes we were picking um who's the hottest guy? Who's the hottest guy at the film festival?
Speaker 1:yeah, we said we were gonna sponsor award for next year and we're on the nominee committee because there were so many hot men, we were like you kind of have to be on it.
Speaker 1:And then Omer would look back when a guy would walk up and not even say anything. But he was just going to be like, oh yeah, he's in, he's going straight in. And he and Jen had very different tastes because he's gay, I have a boyfriend he's like. I have a boyfriend he's like, but I don't think my boyfriend would care that we're doing this and I was like I have a husband.
Speaker 3:And he's sitting right here.
Speaker 2:He's sitting right next to me and he's voting.
Speaker 1:We're both voting.
Speaker 3:As we're voting for smoke shows that are going.
Speaker 1:Because there's a lot of like. I wish you could go to these, because it's like a lot of like LA guys, but also perfectly curated. Their outfit is perfect, their hair is perfect. They work out a good amount. They're like tanned in the perfect way. They're very confident, yet kind of like humble slash not really humble, but like it all comes together and there's like a okay. Yeah, this guy is like a star and there were so many of those, which is fun.
Speaker 3:Sounds like a lot of effort.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, effort galore and you're supposed to make it look like there's no effort, but there's effort it's like sweaty, yeah, but it's fun. It's fun to see like so many different kinds of like artistic people and everyone was so nice. We met this guy who wrote for letterman for like 20 years and he wrote one of the top 10 best episodes of the Simpsons, hurricane Nettie. Have you ever watched it?
Speaker 1:Probably it's like it was based on a real hurricane Okay, I forget which one. I believe my brother Kevin loves this episode. But, this guy was great. He was really funny. He kind of seemed like David Letterman. He had his like vibe.
Speaker 4:Yeah, like david letterman. He had his like a vibe. Yeah, yeah, he said he's been talking more and more like letterman with every yeah he's like spending so much time with him.
Speaker 1:He's like I feel like I've picked up his like like mannerisms yeah his way yeah, but he was great and he was. He starred in a film.
Speaker 1:He actually acted in one, he didn't make one this time and he had a doc made about him that was at that fest. They made a doc about his record collection. He has some like epic oh cool record collection and then the movie he was in. He was playing a hitman, this older hitman who's like working with this younger new hitman and he's kind of like pissed off about like being edged out and then later he like takes him under his wing we didn't see the movie.
Speaker 1:He was just telling us about it and I was like, oh my god, I love that. So he acts too. That sounds great, yeah, and josh's mentor wants to put him in something she wants to make a documentary about. When you're standing at the crosswalk and there's that in some cities you press the button, it's like wait yeah wait, she wants to like make a doc about that I think a narrative um, I wonder if we should cut that out in case someone steals that it would be based on a real story yeah, a narrative about we'll leave it in, we'll leave it in.
Speaker 4:We'll leave fate to chance.
Speaker 1:I hope I don't get in trouble for that. Yeah, um, but yeah, it was fun. It was like, yeah, getting to like meet a bunch of different people who were really nice, really creative, really cool, see cool films. You know there were people that were starstruck by josh which was very cool.
Speaker 4:Some young, some young, some young students yeah, that's great.
Speaker 4:Yeah, like they were like wanting to come up, they kind of found me in the throng and I was like you're looking for someone else. And they, it seemed as if they had the correct. Because I went up, um and this will bring me to my later point for the q a, where I went in front of the audience and got to say like hey, I'm Josh Bear. I uh, I uh wrote and edited this movie out here, which is true, um, but uh, I realized I should say uh, co-wrote because, oh, no, because I was to be fair, I was of a team of three writers. I think if you're a documentary filmmaker, a lot of the time the editor really should get a writing credit, even if they don't.
Speaker 1:And and you did because you're helping shape the story sure, along.
Speaker 4:It's like a collab, you're like co-writing it with the director, unless they just kind of really usually it's a collaborative effort, like the whole building of the narrative and all the lines of dialogue and the shape of the story and the twists and turns and what scenes are included and and uh, but long story short. Yeah, lisa Klein, who directed it, was like, uh, you know, you should either say co-wrote or like, don't even say you wrote it, you know, just say you edited it. And I, I feel like I have been, since I started editing documentaries, really kind of, you know, craving that writing credit, because I feel like I've kind of written, all of them Sure and you finally got it.
Speaker 4:Co-written, co-written yeah.
Speaker 2:I don't want to get in trouble.
Speaker 4:After I made the Instagram post I forget if I talked about this on the pod I accidentally said that I wrote and directed the film.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Josh actually directed it when you definitely didn't do it Accidentally.
Speaker 3:I to accidentally I like how she her suggestion was, or don't say it at all, or just don't even mention it, or don't even mention it. Lisa Klein, one of my favorite people in the world, that's awesome.
Speaker 4:It's all water under the bridge now. I'm glad. Well, it was funny because she and her husband had like slightly different opinions.
Speaker 1:He's like I think you should always Like well, and he's like yeah, he's like definitely say that.
Speaker 4:He leaned over the table. To me, doug Blush, I'd say Oscar winner, doug Blush, but he didn't technically win an.
Speaker 1:Oscar Worked on many Oscar winning projects.
Speaker 4:Yes, 20 Feet from Stardom, elephant, whispers et cetera, yeah, ad nauseum. And he kind of leaned over the table. He was like Josh, take every credit you can get.
Speaker 2:Take them all. Take, that would be my view like I was saying to josh.
Speaker 1:I was like if someone calls me doctor in the middle of a session, I'm not gonna correct them. If they ask me if I'm a doctor, I'm gonna say no, but it's like I'm not gonna get too like pedantic no, and maybe that's the wisdom is to like be I don't need them to think'm a doctor. It's not like that's what I'm gunning for.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I don't think, and I'm so chill, I'm just like I directed it, which you know I didn't too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's awesome.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's just so chill.
Speaker 3:But these youngins wanted to really like.
Speaker 4:Yeah, we were getting drinks at the end of the night.
Speaker 1:They have. They were.
Speaker 4:Some of them were british too like these like yeah, young british guys he was on our hotties list.
Speaker 1:He was one of them was on our hotties list hottest of the film festival.
Speaker 4:He's probably. He may not be of age, but he's probably like I think he's like 20, yeah, yeah um and he was like yeah, I loved your film. Yeah, thank, you, thank you. You know, I didn't direct it. And then he saw the director el Lisa and he was like oh my God.
Speaker 3:He said let me be clear. Yeah, let me, I did not direct this. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So it was great, it was fun. It was super fun yeah. And like a lot of like stories related to mental health. I'd be so curious. Your thoughts on there was basically oh really it's like a residential program in utah called the breakthrough group and it basically is for x cons or people facing like prison time okay, so it was a more intense environment. For sure it was great. The film was great and we met the filmmaker, ben shout.
Speaker 4:Out to ben bailey right I'm so everyone we're talking about I feel like I should know their name.
Speaker 1:He was great but he um filmed it and like it's pretty intense the way they do the group therapy, we have a slightly different approach slightly being maybe a lot different Cause it was a little more like a little more punitive.
Speaker 1:Oh um, I know we wouldn't be punitive at all, but it's interesting. Like you, I know we wouldn't be punitive at all, but it's interesting. You know, in the addiction community and in some of those communities the culture and the common language is a little bit different, but I'd be so curious what you'd think of it. I loved the doc.
Speaker 3:The characters were great, like punitive and the group norms and calling people out for their behaviors outside of group as well as in group.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, Like this one guy was like stealing soda and the way the man running the place handled it was really interesting. He was like kind of getting pretty worked up about it, but it was interesting and it was really like it really reduces recidivism to prison. It's like multiple years you stay. Yeah, I'd be curious what you think about it there was a lot of mental health related docs the docs, yeah, which were great.
Speaker 1:There was one about this one guy.
Speaker 1:This was probably one of my favorites, other than out here, yours called middle ground this mom of a boy with Down syndrome, I think he's about.
Speaker 1:He had just graduated from college and he was starting an internship program for people with special needs and this program somehow like messed up this internship such that like he and like four other students or four other interns, didn't have housing for two weeks before as they were like orienting to the program and part of the film was like highlighting this, like that really shouldn't happen in these, like service programs, like everything should be accounted for.
Speaker 1:But the woman has another son who is a filmmaker and he and the mom decided I'm going to rent this Airbnb for two weeks for all these interns and I'll stay and I'll manage the house and I'll drive them to and fro and like feed them and whatever, and and kind of help them to and fro and like feed them and whatever and and kind of help them transition. Yeah, and the older son, who's a filmmaker, was like I'm gonna film this. This will be so interesting because it was also like capturing this moment where you're like letting your child launch but not just your child like your special needs child and like what that experience is like for for griffin, the protagonist, son, who was incredible.
Speaker 1:He was there, griffin I was like again, I was like starstruck he killed it, killed it he was so funny and so great, but the mom was there too. She had both her sons, that they were both in the film, and then the son the son who filmed it was not in the film at all and didn't mention that he, the filmmaker, was her son, which I thought was incredible. He it gave him such an uncontroversial like a non-exploitative kind of look at it.
Speaker 1:But you know the process of like griffin doing his own thing and living on his own which he really wants and the mom letting go, and I was like so struck by like just for any parent to let go I'm sure at that stage is so hard, but like if your child has certain difficulties or like uniqueness about them in this way, just the courage it takes to really let them and I was so impressed with her to like help him but also really let him fly and it was incredible.
Speaker 1:They had some really moving scenes that captured that so elegantly. And she even asked him too, like, do you wish you didn't have a disability? And he was like, no, I like myself, I like exactly how I am, and like it wasn't that corny kind of thing, he was just saying it. It was really funny and it was so funny. The other people who lived with him in the house were so funny. They were like, so honest to each other about everything. It was great. Yeah, it was. That was a really really great film. Yeah, and Josh is, and we talked about it on here, but it's great.
Speaker 2:No, it was great. Your film is great.
Speaker 1:I cried again watching it. It's amazing. But yeah, that that was really really really great.
Speaker 4:And then there, was one about Eric Garner. He was like similar situation to what am I, george Floyd?
Speaker 1:George Floyd yes, I can't breathe.
Speaker 3:He was like the first iteration of that.
Speaker 1:So it was all about his mom. And that one was really interesting and Doug worked on that. It was a block of all ones that Josh's mentioned A blush block. A blush block All the movies he had worked on.
Speaker 4:Yeah, pioneer Doug Blush, yeah, in the prime of his career. He received a little gnome. They gave out the little awards. They were like little gnomes.
Speaker 1:They were gnomes Really. Yeah, they seemed pretty heavy. I know it's like paperweights. Yeah, but he won one. You know, someone on our team walked away with a a nomi or what are they called? Indies? Probably yeah, oh no, he was called iggy iggy's iggy shorts.
Speaker 1:I think his name was yeah, yeah, yeah, anyway so many films that I feel like I don't know if someone like me would come across them I know that's the tragedy of it like I wouldn't come across right and they're so good and so so thought-provoking, and I almost think the short medium is great because it's like it's not bashing you over the head over and over with the same idea.
Speaker 1:It's like pretty tightly told and like I mean so moving. Like the one with the middle ground, I was just like wow, like what an amazing. Like to take this experience and like really humanize like all the characters in this in such like an everyday, ordinary moment.
Speaker 1:That's not actually that ordinary, but like feels ordinary, like I was just like it's amazing yeah like it's so amazing and him like working and yeah, like it's great, and the he's so close with his mom and their relationship was so cute and you know they're kind of enmeshed but like it, it makes more sense in that kind of dynamic and that was so sweet, it was it's great. I, I loved it, loved it. Yeah, so great and it's like I don't go out and see those movies because I'm like it'll make me too sad, or it'll make me too, whatever.
Speaker 1:And like it wasn't sad, they were all like moving and great, yeah, yeah, it's kind of fun at a film festival.
Speaker 4:you just get like force-fed all this content. Some are better than others, but it's like really eye-opening just to see like so many films in a row of things you wouldn't be exposed to otherwise. It's really like inspirational for me, like it's making me want to I was telling you this, kelly like go back and like finish all my projects that I've been working on.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Because I'm just kind, point in the doc I've been editing about Rod Serling of the Twilight Zone creator. I've got a little time to do some networking and also work on my projects that I've been not working on at all.
Speaker 3:You all talking about. It makes me think of my Netflix. Is there even a category for short films. I don't think so.
Speaker 4:That's a tragedy in and of itself, there should be, is there not? A category I?
Speaker 3:don't know, because I know.
Speaker 4:Elephant Whisperers that pioneer Doug Blush produced and almost won an Oscar for.
Speaker 1:So maybe they just put that on the regular. Okay, that was on Netflix, that was a.
Speaker 4:Netflix doc. I know it's on Netflix, but I don't know won the Oscar nominee that we saw Anuja. Anuja, yeah, was on Netflix or some streaming platform Netflix.
Speaker 1:They put the Netflix logo before they screened it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm not saying it's not on there, I just know from. If I'm looking at the categories, I don't ever remember seeing short films.
Speaker 4:No.
Speaker 2:Yeah me neither.
Speaker 3:That's too bad.
Speaker 2:They shouldn't.
Speaker 3:If there are some on there, they probably just throw them in the category of if it's a short film and it's a drama, they just throw it under drama.
Speaker 4:I feel like there would be a market for it, Because people love short content. I mean people are obsessed with series.
Speaker 3:Well, what you're talking about, right? Now makes me want to look and see if there is a short film category on.
Speaker 2:Netflix and see if there is a short film category on Netflix.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I know, we should take that Maybe on.
Speaker 2:Mubi, not that, that's the only yeah, not that.
Speaker 1:That's the only place to find it.
Speaker 3:I bet Mubi has like all sorts of-.
Speaker 4:Is Mubi real? Mubi is real and they have kick-ass shorts. I watched one about oh really, Cartoon asparagus, and it was surreal asparagus. I would imagine a lot of these films are ending up on Mubi, Because I think it's a little more. It's like the artsiest streaming platform.
Speaker 3:How do you spell it? M-u-b-i.
Speaker 1:M-U-B-I.
Speaker 4:Like I'm watching a Mubi.
Speaker 1:But we tried to watch it and then we couldn't get into it, right?
Speaker 4:Well, because we were trying to hack my friend josh berkowitz's account which, to be fair, he shared all his info with me, but he may have changed his password. Shout out, josh berkowitz. Gotta get him on the pod to get that password.
Speaker 1:We can share.
Speaker 3:We can share his password right now, josh, if you're on the pod um.
Speaker 1:We'll publicly share your password to mooby to mooby, which no one will be able to to find anyway, so I don't know that it matters, but yeah, yeah, that was our weekend.
Speaker 4:It was great yeah, sorry to ramble.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, it's hard not to ramble about these because they're so interesting yeah and it's just like a an experience like I, if I didn't meet you like I would not meet all these like really interesting, cool people in this particular setting.
Speaker 4:It's so cool we gotta go to some podcast conventions that's what our thought was.
Speaker 1:We were like god, I hope that there at least will be, or even is now, like things like this, where we can meet other podcasters and like connect. I think that'd be so cool that would be great be so fun I bet you.
Speaker 3:There's more and more of that as time goes on we'll look it up after the pod yeah, yeah, if you know about it out there, reach out, reach out, let us know, invite us yeah, please, please what is that father john missy lyric?
Speaker 1:I didn't get invited, but I know where to go. I'm showing up. Yeah, I'm gonna figure out where to go. I'm coming yeah, yeah, that'll be us. We'll be rushing the gates. That's hilarious, yeah, yeah, so yeah, we just like set up shop.
Speaker 3:We just start recording. They're like who are you?
Speaker 1:Because I guess this is a podcast. Oh, you did.
Speaker 3:We heard there was. This is a convention for podcasts. We have one, yeah.
Speaker 4:You have to be invited to record.
Speaker 3:To record here. Yeah, that's funny. God, yeah, one day, one day. Well, that would transition us into being rejected.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Actually our perfect segue into our topic of rejection.
Speaker 3:Did we not talk about this already? Did we? I don't know, we probably didn't, but for some reason it sounds familiar Wait.
Speaker 1:Josh, do you have your phone?
Speaker 4:I have my phone. Are you going to scroll? Are you going to doom scroll? You can cut this out right. This part's kind of fun, but if it goes, too long, we can cut it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, maybe we didn't.
Speaker 1:Oh, thank God. Thank God I didn't have another one on the dome we would have had to reject this. Sorry, everyone, that's me no no, honestly, as you said it, I like was then phantom remembering having talked about it, which never doesn't. It sound familiar, it totally sounds familiar it's the mandala effect yeah, I feel like mandela. Oh, that's who, that's who I remember mandalas yeah, mandela effect. Oh that too. Mandela, that too. Oh, my God, I remember Mandela's.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so we're transitioning that might transition us nice into our topic rejection.
Speaker 1:Rejection yes.
Speaker 3:Wow.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, what do you think when you hear the term rejection, what comes to mind?
Speaker 3:It's the first, I mean. It's an uncomfortable thing to think about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely yeah, definitely yeah, you winced, you went.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think it's uncomfortable if I'm thinking about it just like in an interpersonal way, like on both sides, like being the rejected and having to I guess, unquote, reject yeah, someone yeah I don't know yeah, it's just uncomfortable yeah, it makes me think too of like.
Speaker 1:Obviously this is like in the discourse, but you know, with like dating, it's like a lot of people are like with the whole ghosting of everything it's like, do you more actively? Like, reject someone directly is ghosting or just a form of rejection? It is basically and yeah, like, what are people's like feelings about that reactions to that?
Speaker 3:I mean, I've been ghosted, I've been rejected, like in the dating world, in like professionally, oh yeah, you know, in ways with friendship yeah like everywhere, and I've done some rejecting yeah, oh man, I remember being crushed, like absolutely crushed, and I don't think I really, because last time we had um in our last episode we had me on and we were talking about kind of like our trajectories into, like you know, being clinicians.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And even though I knew I wanted to do a private practice, I still, um, that was like my main thing and I was like, well, what's the quickest way to get there? You know, I still applied it to PhD programs oh that is just hell. And going through the process of like the interview and like going in person and like yeah. And I was accepted to like one program.
Speaker 1:You weren't.
Speaker 3:That's big, though, but I totally focused on the rejections. I got and it was like crushing.
Speaker 4:It was.
Speaker 3:And I wasn't even planning on doing it. The amount of time and money, all those things I talked about, I knew I wasn't going to do it. I think, it was one of those exercises where I wanted to prove to myself in that moment that I was good enough or smart enough or whatever. It was doggone it people are going to like me Like whatever it was, I was it was an exercise at that moment where I needed to feel like I could do it if I wanted. And, yeah, I was accepted into one.
Speaker 1:But the rejections were like absolutely crushing to me, and I mean for those who don't know those programs. Some of them take like one person a year.
Speaker 3:It was just, yeah, I was really not happy with myself for like a while yeah. Anyway, that was another one. When you had mentioned this was what we were going to talk about, because I was trying to think of certainly interpersonal stuff, but I was trying to think of what about professional? And that was like because I was on the cusp of finishing my master's and feeling like really good about.
Speaker 1:Wow, what an accomplishment like getting a master's degree and this and that and and that was like god, yeah, it really hurt, it really hurts getting that letter, totally that notification, totally anyway oh, I remember that for college, like not getting in, I didn't get into northwestern and I, oh yeah, and I was like so ashamed is that where you want?
Speaker 3:I thought you wanted to go to nyu, you didn't want to go there at all.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just didn't want to get rejected.
Speaker 3:Well right, you know, it was like I didn't know why, I said that, but I know I think I was like I don't even remember you saying totally I my dream forever was nyu nyu, right, yeah.
Speaker 1:And then, like when push came to shove, I got too scared of living in new york at that age and then I was gonna go to michigan and then I was actually I was on the wait list at washoe and I got in there and went to washoe um, which I loved, but yeah, I didn't get into northwestern. I'm in, I was it stinks so bad. Yeah, oh. Yeah. Yeah, that felt bad and you're right, I wouldn't have gone, but it's like I just always wanted to invite it to the party. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:I want to feel wanted yeah.
Speaker 4:And that is a total rejection.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's like you are not wanted here. Yeah, and there's no real reason that you get at least from the letters I got. It's not like they went into specifics in the letter of like oh, you could have been better in this area, or you could have been better it's just like goodbye. It's literally like just a blanket. They insert your name, they insert your name, they put the date on it and then probably insert the copy and paste the program that you apply to or whatever in there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sorry, yeah anyway, it's hard it's funny, like the ones that stay maybe like things with academics, because we have such like an academically focused like society, or at least at least some like corners of society or that way, and that can really really sting.
Speaker 1:Yeah well, even thinking of it now like almost like this really brings me back to that place oh talking about my stomach is in knots yeah, yes, thinking about it, yeah, it is like such a tough thing. Yeah, yeah, and, like we, the part of the reason we thought of this topic today was because we went to the film festival and like they were giving out a lot of awards and we were seeing if josh's film won one of the awards rejected, which it was rejected, it didn't win most of the films get rejected yeah, but I'm sure, I'm sure everyone who doesn't win feels rejected on some level.
Speaker 4:Yeah, most of the films get rejected. Yeah, but I'm sure I'm sure everyone who doesn't win feels rejected on some level yeah most of the room feels rejected totally because barely anyone wins right and even though you're invited to the, to the festival you're selected for it, right, you know, it's like yeah, it's hard to see, like someone else.
Speaker 1:When they said, what did they say? They were like how many thousand films were submitted? It was something like 6,000 films were submitted, or whatever. And he's like only like like less than 5% of them get in.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I was so impressed with Josh. Josh turns to me. He goes there's so many bad movies.
Speaker 4:I mean, I've talked to people who are on like the submissions boards and it's like 50 of these are unwatchable and then like obviously there are good films that get rejected, but I I do think there's like a lot that are pretty easy to like skim off the top because I was ready to be so impressed with you like there's so many, oh you, you should be impressed with me I am, I'm so yeah, thank you but I do think, like the film, a film career really is based on rejection and I'm learning in my mid-30s.
Speaker 4:I'm like, well, I've known that for a while but it's like and especially as an editor, like your job is basically to like get criticized until you finish the movie, yeah, and you mostly don't get jobs. You're like always kind of hustling to get work. People, you know, are like getting jobs over you. You know I'm getting jobs over p. It's like so competitive and then you like mostly don't get into the film festivals you submit to, and then when you get in, it's like such a long shot to win anything and, yeah, I mean just the odds are like even if you're an incredibly successful filmmaker, you're like getting rejected way more than you're getting what you want yeah, yeah, it's like.
Speaker 1:yeah, there are certain like because in our career as a therapist that that's not the same thing, I mean, but I guess you're getting micro-rejected in the therapy relationship Regularly. Oh, yes. Yeah.
Speaker 3:So people don't want to. They don't want to do what we tell them to do. Right right, a lot of what we tell people to do is highly uncomfortable.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And the ideas that we put out there to people. People are resistant to. And so I don't think it's a like all or nothing, just like flat out. No, a lot of the time I think, if you were to really drill down, it's a lot of work for us to make it palatable or put in a way, or we're consistently grinding it out until people change some of their behaviors or try something. Yeah, and so that I guess you could interpret that as many, yeah, like many rejections in the therapy process totally it's interesting because that doesn't.
Speaker 3:Maybe you and I have been doing this long enough where that just feels like breathing almost in this space, Like it's just this is what it is. The resistance that we're going to, and certainly some people are much more resistant than others.
Speaker 1:Yeah. To me it doesn't feel so like visceral of a rejection yeah, no, I think you're right expected yeah, and I think because we've worked too in higher levels of care, where it's like everything is uh kind of magnified- like resistance some you know, problematic behaviors can be a level 10.
Speaker 1:And even like when I early in my career, I mostly worked with eating disorders and really they. In the clinical world we call many eating disorders egocentronic, meaning the person does not necessarily want to change this, it feels like depression is often ecodistonic, meaning someone who feels depressed wants to not feel depressed, wants to address this. Often an eating disorder like someone may come to therapy wanting to address some piece of the picture, but a lot of times there's at least ambivalence about actually changing the eating disorder, and this I mean this can be true of addiction.
Speaker 1:This can be true of so many things, but classically, especially like restrictive eating disorders. In like our society that like worships the nest can be, people can feel like they don't want to change it. So then the therapist becomes the bad object very easily and is rejected. So I remember like feeling like, wow, I'm going to have to get used to this right away, because constantly this is happening and yeah, so I'm in that space.
Speaker 1:I'm fairly comfortable with it, although I have times where maybe it comes out of nowhere with a certain case and I'll feel pretty shitty about it, like man, maybe I fucked that up or this hurts, yeah, I remember being an intern in my practicum internship and when people no-showed, yeah, I was like what? Yeah.
Speaker 3:People don't want to work with me.
Speaker 1:Right, me, me Are you?
Speaker 3:kidding, don't they know I'm gonna change their life?
Speaker 1:I'm gonna be good.
Speaker 3:Well, I'm in here, three or 24 year old know it all, totally, um, totally, which, looking back on it, it's so laughable. I can laugh at myself yeah it doesn't take away from the fact that was an authentic feel in that moment, 20, whatever years ago.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 3:I was like ugh, Like they no-showed.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:I took it so personally, yeah, oh yeah, and in my internship I mean, certainly there was a wide array of diagnoses, but certainly just people that had real struggles and barriers of getting to their sessions, whether it be transportation, finances or such severe mental illness that just even remembering appointments was difficult. I just I felt so I did something wrong. I didn't connect with them.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I just took it so personally, right.
Speaker 3:Oh and and I I'm not a hundred percent used to it, I think those times still happen.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I bet I just remember being like what?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, we had an appointment.
Speaker 3:We're supposed to meet.
Speaker 1:Totally.
Speaker 3:You know yeah.
Speaker 1:I totally, you know, yeah, I, yeah, it's hard, yeah, and then, like this is coming up so much in the dating world and I I have a number of clients and work with a number of clients. Like you know, over time I have like dating and you know, dealing with long-term relationships and like rejection within them and yeah, it's like a pretty painful thing.
Speaker 1:You know, dealing with long-term relationships and like rejection within them and yeah, it's like a pretty painful thing you know, especially like so many people I work with, like really what they come into therapy to do is to connect to their self-worth and really like embody self as opposed to like defenses and ego and you know all these unhelpful things. And yeah, it's like to be rejected, even if it's not, even if it's not like some kind of douchey rejection, you know like a ghost, a ghost or, or you know something inappropriate or someone's bad, even something that's like mindful and conscientious. Sometimes I remember in dating I thought that was like almost worse than being like ghosted was to have like a respectful, mindful guy. Be like no thanks. It was like so I'm really being rejected here. You know like I'm.
Speaker 1:That ratcheted it up Totally I remember the first time I didn't have that many of those which I almost I'm like this is gonna sound crazy, but I'm almost relieved by, because I remember the one that I got. I remember coming to work afterward, um, in northbrook. It really felt I I actually felt like I had like a hole at the center of my and it wasn't because I was like thought I was gonna marry the guy you know, so happy I married my josh. It was more like this is a very like normal put together person that I liked and was interested in seeing again and they were just like had one date with me and they were like no thanks so I wonder if even you saying that I'm thinking of myself, because if it, if it hurt that bad, if I was in your position, it's probably me.
Speaker 3:In those other ways where people ghosted, I could immediately make an excuse for why it's them and not me yes and then yes, as you said, it's the well-adjusted thing. It's like oh, this is really about me what's wrong with me?
Speaker 1:they don't like.
Speaker 3:They don't like me, yeah, totally and so, with those other people, my mind would immediately go to it's them they have something else or they're this or they're that yeah as a way to protect myself from. Oh, this person got their shit together and they don't want to be with me.
Speaker 1:Oh, I'm terrible yes yes, that's exactly what I felt. I was like I'm garbage, I'm straight garbage. But then, yeah, I remember like talking to one of our coworkers then and she was like you know, like really, it's like all terrible until it's good. And that has stuck with me and that has been my experience in meeting Josh. Like it's kind of all terrible until it's amazing and you can't really bypass that and it's terrible in all these different ways, like rejection is such a huge piece, but doing the rejecting and getting rejected.
Speaker 1:Yeah, doing rejection is not easy, Like in dating and work stuff.
Speaker 3:There's like micro-rejecting you do of your partner, Like if you're like I don't like this thing yeah, I mean, I was already thinking about just established long-term relationships and how hurtful I can feel just sometimes, even hearing a note of something yeah, yes that that can feel almost like what like, very like jarring not all the time. But hearing no is an art.
Speaker 1:Like being able to like hear that and yeah, you know. Yeah, well, we had this. Like josh was wanted to introduce me to this band or as an artist oh, I ryan davis and the roadhouse band.
Speaker 4:Do you know them? No, it's gonna be my shout out at the end of the time. Josh put it on.
Speaker 1:He didn't even ask me do you like this? He was like put it on and a couple songs in. I was like can we not listen to this? He was like no more. And you were pretty hurt.
Speaker 4:I had been up all night the night before listening to it and reading the. I feel like she's going to love it Because it's kind of I feel like we bond a lot over weird singer-songwriter-y stuff that are kind of twangy but kind of hip with just weird-ass lyrics. Like Father John Misty, like MJ.
Speaker 1:Lenderman.
Speaker 4:It reminds. I don't know if you know Bill Callahan or the Silver Jews, you might like this. He's kind of got that baritone voice. The voice kind of was a barrier. You're my Jessica rabbit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the lyrics are really weird. Robert Devon, which I like that but he doesn't say but you were like it stung for like a second and I also like I wasn't aware that I was sort of like on trial, so I was just sort of like trial, so I was just sort of like, yeah, can we get this?
Speaker 4:the hell off and you're not on trial. Well, no, I didn't realize that. Like ryan davis and the roadhouse band was on trial.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that you were wanting to see if I liked it yeah, I was really excited.
Speaker 3:I thought it was just kind of on and, yeah, I think that's sometimes where, in my own experience, I have something built up yeah, in my head of the way it's gonna look, or because I could.
Speaker 3:I could totally see myself in either one of your positions in that, in my own experience where it's like I've built something up, I really like it, I really want to share it, and the person has no idea that I've built it up. Or I had a night, a late night, listening to it and like really had a moment with it and felt connected, and the person's like what the fuck are we listening to? And then I'm like, oh no. You know, or that just like a show or a movie, and I'm like looking for their reaction. They're like, yeah, it's okay.
Speaker 2:And it's like yeah.
Speaker 3:I watched it in a certain moment of my life where this was so touching or that and that feels like rejection oh, especially with people that were very connected with yeah, it's almost a picturing, like you.
Speaker 1:Like you know, it's like someone has like this little dessert that they like made and they want to give it to their partner and I like ran up and smashed it into their face like so terrible and I was so like not tactful well, it had been a really stressful, stressful or even or even that seems even more intentional than what you're describing.
Speaker 3:It's almost as if he left it on that dessert on the counter for you without a note or anything, and you just kind of like toss it in the trash no, not even that.
Speaker 2:You were just kind of like, oh, this has been out too long. Yeah, like you just didn't even realize, right, that josh had been up making that treat, yeah you know yeah yeah, it's.
Speaker 1:I mean, rejection is hard. It's like all these things we're talking about like, do bring up something like visceral.
Speaker 3:Yeah but it also is making me I. All I did was say no to my kids today and that feels like shit it really does, and the I think sometimes to the, the recency effect almost of of like I could say yes to them and like do stuff with them a hundred times. And then the time I'm like no, I don't feel like it or I don't you know, I have a bad moment and I'm like no, like I really don't want to do that right now.
Speaker 3:You never do this with me, you never, and that just really hurts where it's like oh like I do this stuff with you.
Speaker 4:Like don't you remember? Yesterday we did it for an hour, you know, but they're pulling up.
Speaker 3:The tape is really bad and I think they know how to try to get what they want, and so by using that type of language, they know that they're kind of like, yeah, twisting the knife in you a little bit to get you to do it but, it's still it stings
Speaker 1:so much because it's like.
Speaker 3:no, I don't say no all the time, do I like? I know I say it a lot, but and it's important for them to be able to hear no.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:As with all of us. I you know I need to hear it too. Um, but I do think about that where some days it just feels that's all I've said to them and that feels really bad.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like I've, I've rejected them.
Speaker 3:like most of the day, it doesn't feel like I've welcomed them or something I don't know, yeah, yeah, I know.
Speaker 1:That almost makes me think of like you know, like we sometimes I'll have I don't have kids yet obviously shout out to my non-existent kids kids, you're listening, sophie?
Speaker 4:or uh, what are we gonna name him? Uh, fiero.
Speaker 1:Fiero. No, no, fiera. I like the name Fiera, fiera.
Speaker 3:I know you're not gonna name him Fiera, because that's the name of a character from Wicked which we know you don't like so famously we like ironically, um, but no, like I will have trouble sometimes scheduling things with my dad.
Speaker 1:He tends to be a little more of like a last minute scheduler and we're like lately we're just really booked between our two families, doing the podcast, doing work stuff, seeing our friends who, like somewhere in chicago, but most of them are not here, so we we're visiting. It's like we're so busy. You know you're so busy. It's like we can't be last minute planners. So, like almost every time now my dad reaches out to do something, it's a no, and I really do feel like I'm being rejecting and it doesn't feel great, but it doesn't stop.
Speaker 1:Being true that, like I, literally can never do things last minute.
Speaker 1:Almost never, um, and it's even like really two ships, because like they tend to not do things past like six o'clock and like I'm not even done with clients a lot of days until seven. So it's really tough. Nice is hard, yeah, and it just feels shitty. Even even if you have, like a real legitimate reason, can just feel like what you're saying to the person is like I don't like you. I don't want anything to do with you and that doesn't feel good, it's hard yeah.
Speaker 3:So where does the work come in for our clients and our patients?
Speaker 4:when they feel rejected.
Speaker 3:What do we do with them?
Speaker 1:I know, and I'm thinking even to like the both of meta and like when they just bring it in as content, right like I've been rejected or feeling rejected by us in some way.
Speaker 1:It's a tricky thing, yeah, I think I mean, like I've said this before, on the pod like sometimes I think some of my clients might think I'm like infuriatingly, almost like opportunistic about things like this, but I've had moments of rejection in my own life that have been life changing. If I could like really capitalize on it, really explore and excavate the moment. So I do try to do that where it's like so this is the experience you had and and I notice like friends or clients or lots of people out there will kind of gloss a bit like that was pretty bad. But anyway, like I got through and I'm okay and it's okay. I really do try to like slow things down.
Speaker 1:And it's like let's notice more like. I understand you're okay and things are not falling apart and there could be something important here.
Speaker 1:Let's stay with this for a second. You know I and I often will have them go through the situation and it's like if you just bring that to mind, that moment, notice what you feel, even are there words that go with that and we really like explore, like relationship to self right, like what am I believing about myself, feeling in my body, emotionally feeling, because it can be different things, it can fear, it can be shame a lot of times, embarrassment, anger, confusion, a lot of narratives probably narratives, beliefs about yeah, self yeah about why I was rejected, and all of that in some ways is like gold, because it's like these are the very things you probably generally struggle with and come to think about yourself or know about yourself that we want it to some extent move through, not necessarily a challenge and push away, but more like understand and grow larger than
Speaker 1:which there are many ways to do it. But, yeah, like, like, it's making me think of like I, I remember having a dating experience and some of this might have been more narrative, but I and maybe I told you about this because I know we were sharing an office at the time, I believe. I think, yes, we must have been right. Maybe not actually. Maybe this was after I went on a date with this guy who was like a bit older than me. I was because I met josh when I was 33, so I must have been like 32 because it wasn't that long before I met you. It was like six months, eight months before I met you. Wow, yeah, so that's probably like 32 and he was like 41 or something. He, he was in his forties. I remember that Cause, when I was like trying to make him bad object, I was like, what's your forties Like?
Speaker 4:you know like in my head.
Speaker 1:But it was like I, I went to meet him at this bar Um, what is the name of the bar? It's a great bar in Chicago, but I I can't remember the name of it, but I was there waiting for him. I'd gotten there first and he had texted me that he was like running lady, mrs Bus and whatever, and we're making like jokes about it. We had great banter beforehand and then when he got there, I remember just having and it it didn't, I don't know, it just felt true to me by just the vibe I got. I remember getting this vibe, like he took one look at me and was like I am not interested and seemed the whole time like he wanted to leave. And I'd never had that experience where I was like, cause it's like you have your pictures on your your dating profile.
Speaker 1:It was an online date, it was a hinge date date and it's like you've seen my pictures, like I look like my pictures and I was like, but I just I felt it where it was like he just was not happy with, like basically, how I looked, because we didn't. We had great banter. He seemed into it. It was like and it was one of the most like I felt like my skin was gonna fall off like it was so painful and I could tell he wanted to get.
Speaker 1:He didn't order a drink and he wasn't sober. It was like, oh, this guy wants to get the hell out of here right away. Wow, and I will say it was like a dark night of the soul. I remember going to sleep that night, truly feeling like my skin was going to burn off my body Like I was so embarrassed, it was so painful, and then it was like in the following days I felt like freed.
Speaker 1:I felt like you know what this is what I look like, this is who I am. If someone doesn't like it and they're going to like run out of a bar, go fuck yourself, like get good riddance.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I don't need you and it was I really was like this is who I am. I'm not going to try to date as someone else. I'm not going to try to get every guy out there to think I'm beautiful or I'm cool or I'm perfect or I'm whatever it's like. I'm just gonna be myself and I want to find someone who likes that person, so I don't have to fake anything and who?
Speaker 1:wants to be everyone's cup of tea. Anyway. That sounds exhausting, you know like no, and it really like. I remember telling maddie about it.
Speaker 1:We had maybe like met up that weekend or something and she was like I'm gonna find this guy, I'm gonna get him and I was like, honestly, maddie, I think it was a gift, like I think there was something that was like I don't have to be everyone's cup of tea and I do think about that a lot when my clients are rejected, like it hurts so bad and you have to feel that hurt, but like there could be something liberating here. Yeah, you could let go of trying to be liked by everyone or win everything, succeed at everything, be picked.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And you could think like, what about the things I want to pick? And yeah, it's like it did feel freeing, it didn't? At first.
Speaker 3:It took a while, Sure, but I was like especially something about it being so superficial to like felt well, not that it's your most feared rejection, but I wonder if there's parts of it that are like oh, this is what I've feared the most, and you went through it and you got through it on the other side and you're like well, how often is that like I? I? Faced my worst totally catastrophic fear in terms of rejection, and now I live to tell a tale yes and I'm okay and I'm okay, it's like fine, right.
Speaker 1:And then I had this thought where it's like I've been on dates. This is what shows you like reality is completely subjective, because it's like I've been on dates where people were so into me right away in a way that felt like maybe you just like how I look or something or whatever, like maybe I fit something for you, but it's like it. It really means it's like everything's subjective, like this guy literally thought I was like grotesque, and it's like other people who can obsess over you and other people are somewhere in the middle and it's like you're looking for someone who, in a in a grounded way, gravitates toward you. None of these extremes looks wise, even personality wise. It's like like for us you know, it's like we were talking about this earlier today Like we were so when we met each other, so into it, but it didn't. It didn't feel like like it felt safe. It felt safe. Yeah, it felt like you could be yourself. Yeah, I felt like I could be myself with you.
Speaker 4:And.
Speaker 4:I just really liked being around you and I, of course, was so attracted to you, of course, but it's like it wasn't that like I'm obsessed with you yeah, sometimes, almost like initially, it's more intoxicating when it seems like the other person is like less into it, and then you kind of get them in your corner for a second, like they go on a second date, and it's like, oh yeah, like conquest, and then it's like a mess versus like kind of a slow burn of like yeah, we're into each other immediately and we just keep being more into each other and like, oh, I'm gonna marry this person, yeah and this makes me think about like rejection.
Speaker 1:Well, I wonder what you think. Because it's like, is rejection always almost like an ego-based thing? Because I think almost like when, like if things as they progress like ended between us, I almost maybe would have felt more loss than like rejection. Rejection feels like that, like I'm bad or I'm not good enough. Yeah, that's interesting like that, like I'm bad or I'm not good enough. Yeah, that's interesting, like when you embody self like you almost can't be rejected.
Speaker 1:It's just losses, right I don't well, because I know what you're saying yeah, I think I need them yeah I need to let it turn a little bit. I guess that's premised on the self being more of like an open space, like a self as context understanding, where it's like, if you're more just embodying presence, like there's nothing to reject, it's more like does this work, does this not?
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Do I go in this direction or that one? And there's such a different. Yeah, it's like to get to feel rejected. You want to be a little bit away from self yeah, I well, I mean, I don't think you can.
Speaker 3:Yes, I agree, and I think rejection feels so personal, yeah, that you cannot get. You can't do selfless context, you can't get into your wise mind you can't do any of those things because it just feels like a straight up attack on you right, right, yes which is not like clinical terms.
Speaker 3:but I'm thinking you're not able to even access in those moments the idea that I'm feeling hurt because I had expectations and that is a loss and that that's maybe further down the line that you can do that. Yeah, so in the, in the, I guess the beginning of it, or the at the initial, if it was like a stage type of thing, it would be like it's rejection, but then if you dig, or you let it sit a little bit.
Speaker 3:It's. Maybe it is more of a grief or a loss, or yeah, yeah Like. Like you're, you've you've lost the idea of something, or you lost Fantasy.
Speaker 1:Fantasy or this or this.
Speaker 3:I'm excited to meet this person. If you're thinking of the dating thing, right, the possibilities we had, goodter, and what could this lead into, and so I'm really grieving. I thought I was hopeful, right, right, and now that's gone.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:But I think that initial sting is probably the you can't get out of your own.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like you're in your own echo chamber of this is just something about me. There aren't, yeah, you're not able to see other possibilities for the rejection. Yeah, it's so personal. Yeah, because it's hard not to take it personally. It's hard not to right say well of course they said no, or they didn't want to go on that second date, or that, well, that's. There's not other people, it's me, me. So it's like they don't want to go on a date with me. Yeah, a second date with me.
Speaker 1:Right. So it's like yeah, oh yeah, totally, that's tough, it's so hard. I feel like, yeah, it is so hard. And I think it's like there's things to face like in the clinical space, like with even getting people to like talk completely about the experience and like what really happened in it, I mean to relive it can be so embarrassing. I mean I felt embarrassed even telling that now, just kind of a little bit like oh God, so embarrassing to have someone like not like the way you look seemingly and discard you. It's like that's so painful and oh my God.
Speaker 2:I felt so bad.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like that's so painful and, oh my God, I felt so bad?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's. It is embarrassing, yeah, in a lot of different contexts, totally, and I've had patients say they don't want to work with me in the group space and that's embarrassing because that comes up in humiliating rounds or team meetings or whatever you have on your team. Because when you're working in groups and you're working with other therapists and yeah there's a rift. They reject you, they say I don't want to be, I don't want to work with this person anymore yeah yeah, and, and I in those instances in the past.
Speaker 3:Immediately my mind wants to go into the reasons why I did whatever therapeutically I did and why it was useful Defend it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, of course, totally.
Speaker 3:Of course, a hundred percent. I'm going to defend it and say that and put it on them. They're not willing to hear how this would be useful for them. They felt invalidated. They felt like this and here's the therapeutic value Let me drop knowledge on, you know immediately my mind wants to go to that emotion-minded place and just let it rip. I don't but it. Your ego is so hurt.
Speaker 1:Yeah, in that moment and it's like in a professional setting, yeah, where you're kind of being assessed right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's so hard to be yeah in self or, as some of the, sometimes the term we say is like we were fired. Yeah, this patient or this client fired us, right, fired me, fired me yeah, I mean, I actually work with me.
Speaker 1:They fired me yeah, I had to like break up with my dentist for my new one and I said to josh I was like I can't do it like I'm I'm terrified you fired your dentist to do it, yeah, and I ended up like that would be an easy one, because you don't see them all the time, it's like every six months.
Speaker 3:Could you just ghost your dentist?
Speaker 1:well, I needed to ask them to fax the x-rays to a new dentist, oh got it because that yeah, but isn't there a front office person who?
Speaker 2:you. Just that's who I am. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, right, I'm not sure I'm not trying to minimize this experience.
Speaker 1:I don't even have a single dentist, like they just throw it's like a group practice, yeah it's. It is like a zoo. That's part of why I'm leaving, but it's like it's a zoo and they're all like taking everything personally, being really unprofessional, in there. It was. It was a really horrible experience I would dread it every time, and it wasn't just the dental work and I cause I did dread that, but I mean people screaming at each other about getting paid properly.
Speaker 4:We're all the where everybody can hear.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, it was really, really unprofessional and they were a little pressurey with stuff. And so I ended up telling the front desk woman that this is embarrassing.
Speaker 3:I lied.
Speaker 1:I said I'm leaving to go to a dentist who's a family friend and he's not. I've never, I don't know Incredible rejection I just was like I can't, I'm, I just can't be talked out of this.
Speaker 4:I hate going into this building.
Speaker 1:I hate this experience and I want to go to the dentist and have like peace of mind.
Speaker 1:And this guy online had so many good reviews so I'm like screw it, I'm just going to this guy. But yeah, I like felt bad even for the front desk person. Like I have this like clearly overwhelming sense of like. It wasn't even like guilt, I guess, it was like shame. It was more based on me and them disliking me and then them trying to get me to stay, because they always kept trying to get me like upsell me on things and what they try to get me an upper retainer and I've never worn an upper retainer and my teeth have never moved at the top and I'm like I'm not gonna pay for that, like, you need all of this work yeah, yes, oh yeah, it was a lot of that, so yeah, but it's hard, yeah do you feel like I know you've brought this up before and you don't have to answer this?
Speaker 3:you're not comfortable. Do you feel like getting your clients to pay you is? Maybe it doesn't fit into the classic rejection or is like Well, do you feel like that's you rejecting them in a way, if they're like, or I don't know, does rejection play into that at all?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it does. I think it does because, god, it would be like ideal if it didn't, but it's like that's not a really fully formed question, or thought I.
Speaker 1:For some reason I thought of it well, what came to mind for me is I've had to at times, if someone's financial situation changed um, we'd like talk about like what rate they could afford and what like I could weather, given my own like expenses of living in Chicago and like building my own family and all that stuff and and I by and large like have really helpful truly helpful collaborative conversations with clients and I'm like amazed by how like conscientious they are in the space, even if they're not like super well off or whatever. But I've had a few where what they wanted to pay me felt sort of insulting to be honest and also felt like, given like the amount of work that I put into things and like yeah, you know you're worse, it doesn't really make sense and also, like this is a tough thing about being a therapist.
Speaker 1:you know you, you know a lot of people's backgrounds and I mean I know clients who I was like are you sure you can afford what they agreed to? You know, because a lot of people's backgrounds and I mean, I know clients, who I was like. Are you sure you can afford what they agreed to? You know? Because, knowing to the degree to which they're struggling and and.
Speaker 1:I've worked with people where they had periods where they didn't pay me, you know, because that was our honor system of like this is what you're going through, and then other times where you're like I'm being taken advantage of in this and that, to me, has felt rejecting. I think it's felt rejecting the clients if I've said like this is as low as I can go.
Speaker 1:I think they've definitely felt rejected by that but you know there is really helpful stuff to work through there. Now you can't work through not working together and you don't agree on a fee. Yeah, so it's hard.
Speaker 3:I think another. Another reason it made me think of it is I was talking with another um, one of my oldest son's friends. His mom is a um. She has her own business and has like um, like a small team and a speech therapist, you know, works with kids and things like that, and she was telling me one of the struggles of like growing her business or a growth edge, not a struggle for her was just like sometimes like there's just people that just are like so late on their payments and this and that, and she's like I'm trying to pay salaries for these people and you know.
Speaker 3:So I kind of said, like you know, knowing people in private practice specifically, you know you, I was know you, I was like god, like yeah, getting people when you own your own business, getting people to pay you is like yeah, or agreeing with the finances right on top of then trying to like have this therapeutic relationship yeah, it's tough anyway, so it is.
Speaker 1:It can be tricky and, and I think it always can be worked out if, if truly, both parties want to work it out. I'll say that I think sometimes what comes up is maybe like some kind of ambivalence that shows up in that, you know, because the truth is, I think and this is you know, it's such a dynamic relationship it's like if I were to agree to a fee that didn't actually compensate the work I'm putting in and and the service I'm providing. I I had a supervisor once who talked about how like that often will like grow resentment for you it's like all if you schedule a client at
Speaker 1:a time you said you can't and they like begged you to and you agreed you might feel resentful and that can infiltrate the relationship, right, you know what happens. The therapeutic relationship is such an important like function of change, that is such an important like mechanism of change that, yeah, I think you do have to be honest and probably sometimes you have to say no. Now, is that no, a rejection? I mean, that's an interesting question, right? The difference in similarity between like a no and rejection. You know I can hear a no and not feel rejected sometimes.
Speaker 3:A boundary and a rejection, yeah Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the rejection. Almost. I think you have to be. I'm like discovering this now like a bit tied to ego, tied to parts, or letting them kind of lead the way. If I feel rejected, I'm usually like there's something for me to resolve internally because, yeah, I think otherwise. A no can just feel like a boundary, Like okay, this is just a new direction, I'm being put in, or putting them in, you know, and or maybe I just don't have all the information.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and that's why that person's holding the boundary or saying no, or and I could, my mind could go. I'm even thinking back to our last episode.
Speaker 1:I wonder if there'd be like a neutral remember me, I was talking about those neutral statements like when people yeah, like I don't know if at this wedding they're going to serve the chicken or the steak Like would that be a neutral statement, like an uncertainty?
Speaker 3:I yeah, maybe I'm thinking of it the wrong way.
Speaker 1:I don't know what were you thinking.
Speaker 3:Well, no, yeah, I don't. If I really want to like, obsess about like being rejected, like is but a neutral statement that. I could say, or an uncertainty statement, that I could try to sit with more that isn't leaning me in one direction or the other, or something like that. Maybe my understanding of the uncertainty statement isn't quite clear, but Well, would that neutral?
Speaker 1:because it's like the non-neutral statement is. I don't know if this person likes me, or is that a neutral statement that might be neutral that might be neutral.
Speaker 4:I think non-neutral would be like I am garbage and this is proof.
Speaker 1:But couldn't there be a non-neutral uncertainty statement, like I don't know if a bad thing will happen, because it's bad?
Speaker 4:Yeah, that would be, I guess, not neutral Versus.
Speaker 1:I don't know what will happen in the next five minutes.
Speaker 4:Neutral.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you want to get to a neutral statement ultimately.
Speaker 2:Right or no.
Speaker 1:I think so. I think, yeah, we need to have Mia back on.
Speaker 3:So this person said no to me and I don't know why.
Speaker 1:I don't know why yeah.
Speaker 3:And I don't have to follow my mind into places that are not useful for me, right I? Have to follow my mind into places that are not useful for me, right.
Speaker 1:No matter how much I think about it, I'm not going to nail the answer yeah. And even if they tell me I can't know for certain, I can't know for certain. Yeah. So it's like I might as well live with the fact that they don't want to go out with me again. And that's the reality, for some reason.
Speaker 3:I don't know what it is yeah, so the reality, for some reason I don't know what it is yeah. So, yeah, it goes back to a little bit of uncertainty, because very rarely we have all the information, totally, totally, and then with that you can look at that like what do?
Speaker 1:you feel about yourself or what are the private events coming? Up to just really expand around. You know, like if it shame, let's feel that. If there are words that go with that shame, let's notice them, and maybe I will look at like where else have you felt that, or is this an old narrative coming up here?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And we can go back to wherever it came from. I'm trying to think of like. Even in my own therapy I've like brought up instances of rejection I must have, but it's weird, I like can't remember. Do you ever talk about?
Speaker 3:that Well. Yeah, I mean, I think talking about rejections from your children has come up before. Yeah, or feeling Like if they don't want to be around you at some moment, or just, maybe it's not so much rejection as like, maybe it's more of the feeling of I don't know, maybe it's not rejection, it's not necessarily that they don't want to be around you.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:But maybe that what you're doing isn't helpful. Yeah, like what you're doing isn't helpful. And so, whether it's an outright rejection or just feeling rejected because what?
Speaker 1:you're doing isn't helping. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Like what I'm doing. You're rejecting yourself yeah, like what I'm doing. I feel like what I'm doing isn't working. I feel, like I'm not parenting effectively.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:Because if I was, things would be different or they would be changing their behaviors. Like you, lose sight of the long game of parenting a lot. Well, I do. I shouldn't say everybody, but like I and that was something that my therapist and I have talked about a long time is always this idea of you have a long runway here, like yeah and he'll use that language with me when I kind of get yeah way to into certain like moments or certain just seasons, even yeah, and it totally feels like, yeah, maybe I'm rejecting myself and saying like you're not a good parent and I'm minimizing, like, all the things that I'm trying to do or the effort.
Speaker 3:I'm trying to put into it, but it feels like the things that I'm doing in my mind should work quote, unquote, whatever work is. And because they're not working, that to me does feel like my kids are rejecting it. But it's like they're kids. They're not Right, they're not really rejecting it.
Speaker 2:I don't know, or they're kind of supposed to.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure, like I almost think that is almost not a bad thing. No, like I almost think that is almost not a bad thing.
Speaker 3:No, no, it's individuating from you, for sure, but it hurts, it hurts.
Speaker 1:It hurts and it's like supposed to.
Speaker 3:Yeah, ugh, and in those moments it's hard to not take it personally, like we've talked about, like it's just hard to not, because every fiber in my body wants to think that I'm doing these things for a reason and I want them to understand that, like I'm on your side, like I'm trying to, I'm not trying to do these things to cause you pain.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 3:I'm trying to do these things because, yes, maybe some of these boundaries I'm holding or things I'm telling you are painful and they serve a purpose. But that's like how could I expect a 10-year-old and a 7, 8-year-old to know that you know?
Speaker 1:Yeah, but that's why it's great. I mean this little plug for therapy, that's why it's great to go as a parent. Yeah To be able to talk about it, because it does hurt.
Speaker 3:Yes, and you don't put that hurt on your kids. You put it on your therapist. Well, I don't know, I'm sure there are times I put it on my kids Absolutely but like that, you even go and think about that and process it.
Speaker 1:It's like I even think about that, like with my nieces, like it was my niece's birthday the other day and she just had a long day because she got to do whatever she wanted. So she was like at that was like a yes day. It was a yes day. How do you know about that?
Speaker 3:it's like a bluey thing.
Speaker 1:Oh, that show blue yeah so she had a yes day and she was very tired, so like I faced, there was a movie called yes day too oh, okay, which just really feeds kids these terrible ideas that all parents should do this.
Speaker 3:Yes, I'm just kidding.
Speaker 1:It's so funny that you said that she had a yes day. What is a yes day?
Speaker 3:They say yes to everything, you have to say yes to every the parents yeah, I mean, you've certainly put boundaries into it, but it's kind of like-.
Speaker 1:Generally.
Speaker 3:Okay. But, basically, if they ask for anything, it's like yeah, right now I want to play this game with you. Yes, Like you can't say no.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so their requests yeah.
Speaker 3:Or it's like I'm going to have ice cream for lunch.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, okay, look in front of the TV.
Speaker 3:Okay, so you as the parent or the caregiver is basically saying yes to every request but there's a boundary somewhere you would like. Yeah, I want to like who did this? Um, and I think there was some boundaries related to money and like. How off, how like, like they couldn't be, like we're leaving the house every five minutes to go somewhere, or something you know, like there's gotta be some like every time raining it in.
Speaker 1:Yeah totally, Um, but like she'd had that. So she had a long day and and she did not want to talk to me and it was her birthday and I wanted to wish her happy birthday and I wanted to ask her what she wanted for her birthday and it was like hi, sir, she were facetiming and she's just kind of like hi and I'm like happy birthday, she's like thanks, like she's over me, over it and I was like what do you want me?
Speaker 1:or well, it felt like that exactly it felt like that and I go what do you want for your birthday? I'll get you anything when we come visit or I'll get you whatever you want when we can visit. She looks when she goes anything.
Speaker 1:It's like a little five-year-old saying that I was like she can't fucking stand me right now and I had this thought where I'm like, wow, it's like I think my brother and sister-in-law do such a good job of letting them feel their feelings and say no to things and be tired and be whatever, and it is a little different like in their generation in a good way, I think, parents doing that more and it also probably makes them feel more comfortable like rejecting than maybe I would have felt to reject my parents yes, definitely. And then I had this thought I'm like that so makes sense because it's like I'm an adult, I can handle the rejection it shouldn't be her handling it.
Speaker 1:She's a child like she should be learning that process in a messy way and sometimes make me feel rejected. Because I'm an adult, I can ultimately talk to Josh about it, I can reflect on it myself, I can weather it, I can expand around it, I'm sturdy and self-led enough and it's like, oh, it makes so much sense. It's right in this way. But it also hurt because I was like it's her birthday and I wanted to have a good call with her and connect.
Speaker 3:And she was like so over me, sure, that totally hurts. Yeah, and a lot of times they just they don't have the language. Yeah, to say you know what? Whatever she calls you and kelly, yeah, okay, usually just kelly, I think you know, kelly, like I've had a really long day and I don't know if I really want to be on this FaceTime call.
Speaker 1:Like they don't have that language.
Speaker 3:No, and so it makes it comes out very terse.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And very and that's something that I can't remind myself in the moment that they don't have the language for it. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because it just it hurts Right.
Speaker 3:But that's also something.
Speaker 1:I have to remind myself is like like this is how they know to express themselves.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's like short, it's sweet, whatever. Yeah, no, it's like all anything snarky and it's a rejection, but it's also like that's their language right and and, and you're right, we have to be the ones, the containers to be like. Okay, like yeah, it sounds like it was a busy day. We'll talk. Talk to you again.
Speaker 2:You know, whatever.
Speaker 1:Love you, love you, yep, yeah, absolutely, totally. Yeah, it's hard, it is, yeah, it's like you. Really.
Speaker 1:what we're saying, I think, too, is like you have to like expand around the experience of rejection and like digest it, yeah, and a lot of us want shrink from it, yeah, and you almost have to really be brave and do the opposite and learn. And it's like, if you think about it, you don't really and truly want to be like everyone's cup of tea all the time, like you know, what I mean. It's like to be rejected is a signal of authenticity and it like reinforces that which is so important and so satisfying for yourself to be your unique self, and you kind of have to turn some people off to be that. And it's even like, practically. It's like if everyone likes you and wants to, how would you even weather that? Or if your kids are so obsessed with you, how do they launch?
Speaker 1:How do they have their own lives? How do they like they're supposed to like, not like their home life completely? There is that theory of like the too good mother where it's like it's hard for kids to launch from that it should be a little uncomfortable to stay at home yeah you know there should be like a desire to expand and like they might have to like dislike you to do it oh yeah, and then I want to pull them aside and be like just so you know, everyone likes me they yeah for sure just so we're clear.
Speaker 1:I'm pretty well what I want to say to everyone who rejects me. Ever like you're missing out. You're a big mistake yeah, you're missing out yeah, it's because you're not funny. Yeah, you just don't get it Because I'm funny, anyone who doesn't like this podcast? They just don't get it.
Speaker 3:If you don't laugh, it's because you don't have a sense of humor, totally. It's not me Totally.
Speaker 1:Let me explain my joke to you several times, and not only explain it to you, but say it louder. And not only explain it to you, but say it louder.
Speaker 3:Yeah, totally. That's something that Sarah always laughs at, Because early in our relationship I would repeat things and then just repeat them louder and she's like no, no, no, I heard you the first time and it's like oh, I got that, but it's funny, you didn't laugh. Well, okay.
Speaker 2:You're still out on that, yeah.
Speaker 1:Totally. Oh man, that, yeah, no man, yeah, rejection it's tough. It is tough, but it can become something fortifying, yeah, and like a real opportunity for growth. I really believe that. I know it's like an annoying thing to say, but I believe it I'm kind of fishing for it with our podcast a little bit yeah, I know you said that you want to hear like negative feedback feedback yeah, actually a guest that we may have on in the near future.
Speaker 1:We were listening to his podcast. I'm forgetting his name, so we'll keep it secret for now. Yeah, um, he said there's no such thing as failure, it's just feedback. Oh, there's just feedback which is like kind of what you're talking about, like wanting to hear, like what would someone want to hear less of? What would someone want to hear more of?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I just want to yeah, which it would probably sting yeah.
Speaker 1:But well, sometimes podcast comments are like these two are just absolutely unlistenable. And then you're like, yeah, thanks for the feedback there might be somebody out there who has that thought on? Us.
Speaker 3:I'm sure, and I'm not like fishing, for I want to hear that, but right, I'm just always curious about yeah constructive feeling yeah, constructive, yeah, which is probably going to feel rejecting in a way, and I think that's important to hear yeah with something you're putting out there definitely anyway, it's funny.
Speaker 1:It's like I I feel like I used to say this when we worked together. It's like I really appreciate and value feedback and I kind of hate getting it. It's like you know, like I really do know it's been so helpful in my life and like I still don't think like yeah please bring it on no it's not easy to hear. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I'm not looking to be punished.
Speaker 1:I looking to be punished? I just want to know. Yeah, but even sometimes like very mindful conscientious feedback that's so fairly given.
Speaker 3:I'm like this it's hard to hear.
Speaker 1:It's 100 hard to hear I'm like, I guess I'm like sensitive, I am sensitive you're a therapist, yeah yeah, that's true, that's a big part of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. Well, I mean again, we solved it Always.
Speaker 3:Done. When do we not Next topic Close the book on rejection yeah. Nobody's ever going to struggle with it again in the world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so now we move to our. How wise is it?
Speaker 3:How wise is it yeah?
Speaker 1:So how wise is it to have extras of things? How wise is it to have extras of things, trying to think like what we have extras of? If you can think, josh, like around the house, extra, oh, extra, like toothpaste in the cabinet, extra wise like supplies yeah, is it supplies? Is this what?
Speaker 4:we're talking about, like I I just finished off our chilled coffee.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you did. We had an extra In the back.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Oh so what if you know?
Speaker 1:It's like a safety net. I literally, like my heart stopped. I was like tomorrow morning.
Speaker 4:This is an advertisement for extras. It's a safety net.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I think we're all about I don't even know where this came from.
Speaker 3:But when? When is the extra not wise?
Speaker 1:well, okay, I think I'll say yes yes, because I have. Actually, I think I'm the perfect person to talk about this because I actually think I obsess about extras a bit too much and it makes me too attached to my things, like with skincare. It's like when I'm halfway through a bottle of it oh, then you have to. There's this, like I cannot be without it okay and I think there's a world where it's like so what if you are without it, kelly?
Speaker 2:you know like, yeah, what would you believe about yourself?
Speaker 1:that's my supervisor would say you know like, are you not good enough now if you don't have this makeup product available at all times?
Speaker 3:because I definitely cling a bit and there's probably a sense of comfort in knowing that you have, because whenever that one bottle runs out, you are going to have three other bottles.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally yeah, and it's like I think some people too that are like cheaper don't have extras around as much because they're like I'm only gonna try to get the exact amount that I need yeah and squeeze out every last like bit until it's gone, so I don't even need to bother with an extra till it's like way at the bottom that is not me.
Speaker 1:I I almost am like bad about it. Where it's like we, we like to get these sausages for we'll cook them one night a week sausage and beans or sausage and beans night of the week and like if we have one pack, I'm usually like let's just get another in case next week they don't have them. I will do that. Oh, it's almost like a sickness wait, wait, wait.
Speaker 3:So has that been the case? Have that's been? That's been a lived experience where you have gone and they have not had this product yeah. I think that's fair, though Okay, phew, I'm not saying.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we didn't start buying extra until they ran out.
Speaker 3:I think if you're doing that with everything you buy, but I mean, I think that's a fair. Like certain products, they have them in stock. Certain times they don't. Yeah so buying an extra one, yeah. Yeah, why not, I'm always thinking extra. For some reason my mind went to packing.
Speaker 1:Oh, which. We've talked about luggage before. We just packed this weekend and I brought a ton of extra stuff, yeah.
Speaker 3:Which that can lean itself into overpacking. I definitely overpacked, but certainly I find it wise to have an extra pair of underwear and socks. Yeah me too, At the very least one extra pair of those.
Speaker 4:Yeah, you might have an accident.
Speaker 2:We don't know, what might happen?
Speaker 1:Well, we went on a basically like three-day, two-and-a-half-day trip and I brought six pairs of shoes. I mean crazy. Part of it was because we registered for these new suitcases that are really big and I wanted to use them and it was only a weekend trip, but I'm like oh, is that part of it, that work? I know I'm kidding, it was. They're so nice and I've never had nice luggage ever yes, packing extras yeah but yeah, it was like harder to.
Speaker 4:Honestly, though, I might do it again like it was great if we go on a day trip for two day, two and a half, no, but like at these film festivals, like everyone's chic, everyone looks cool, but did you wear. I guess that's, I guess they wouldn't have been.
Speaker 2:I wore if you wore all six pairs.
Speaker 4:They wouldn't have been extras oh, good point.
Speaker 1:I wore three pairs of shoes two, so you had three extras yeah, I know, I only wore two pairs of shoes, so I had four extras yeah, I wore the gym shoes and the flip-flops and I brought some nicer shoes. They also gave us a dress code, so I really could have packed way less. Okay, they said we had to wear summer chic. They said women summer dresses, men khakis.
Speaker 4:They actually said summer dresses and khakis. So you are gendering it, oh sorry.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I guess I just gendered it we all did. Yeah, summer dresses and khakis.
Speaker 4:Khakis, and there were plenty of people not, there were plenty of people wearing both.
Speaker 1:Or wearing whatever they want. It's like they don't care.
Speaker 3:I'm trying to think of the things that I have extra of and why I have extra of it. I definitely like having extra like pens and pencils around, but is that just like normal?
Speaker 4:Yeah, what's extra?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's what I'm wondering.
Speaker 4:One pen is insane, insane, but what would it?
Speaker 1:be like to just embrace that and just trust that until it runs out and then you get another one unwise not wise I mean, I wonder if there are people, or even like back in the day, would families like each family member had like one fork and you just like washed it in the sink every time you made a meal.
Speaker 3:What I mean by like pencils and pens is you. I go on amazon and there's a pack of five of them and then there's a pack of 30 of them. Why is my thing to go to get the 30 and have that many extra value so it could be a price. I, I don't, I don't disagree with that.
Speaker 1:My thought is like I'll lose them all because I lose pens. They're easy to lose. I'm just thinking. Maybe I'm overthinking it. Okay, so it's wise to have extras.
Speaker 3:Well, in my case it's like a sickness, I guess. When there's such a discrepancy there, it's like how often am I using a pencil at home? Yeah, I mean never, Probably not that often.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So why would my mind want to?
Speaker 3:go to the 30?
Speaker 2:Oh because this was pencils.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, you probably only need five pencils.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so why do I feel like I need that many extras?
Speaker 1:Maybe if you're like, if I'm going out, Safety, a going out pencil what are?
Speaker 4:you talking about. No no no, I have a going out pencil.
Speaker 1:A going out pencil no I meant that almost like as a turn of phrase, like if I'm going for it, if I'm buying them at all let's get 30.
Speaker 3:Like, shoot for the moon, and even if you miss you'll land among the stars, because then it's going to be years before I have to buy more pencils. I have so many extras.
Speaker 1:It's going to be great Pencils will stop existing.
Speaker 3:They'll stop existing. I just have so many extras, it does not matter. And then it'll become a collector's item yeah, maybe the example is not a useful example. I guess what I'm trying to tease apart is why are there certain things that and I guess the amount and the number for me feels like a lot well, not a lot, but just extra, more than you need, more than I would need, just five extra five extra would be extra and that would be fine, probably to have five extra pencils. Why do I, other than the cost?
Speaker 3:associated with it, I don't know comfort yeah, comfort, comfort, definitely something I don't have to think about again, right, if I have 30 of them?
Speaker 1:yeah, I'll never have to never think I'll never be in this moment again where I'm a pencilist. Yeah Right.
Speaker 4:You almost feel insulated. You can like visualize yourself surrounded by all the pencils. Yeah, and it's like cozy. Yeah, you can be surrounded by 30 pencils. Yeah, if I was like five pencils, it surrounded by pencils.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Or like extra blankets.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Can't have too many of those Wise.
Speaker 1:Love an extra one. We don't have enough extra blankets really.
Speaker 3:You just need so many.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Can I bring up a word? Yeah, hoarding.
Speaker 1:Well, well, there's that.
Speaker 3:Where does it become hoarding. Well, now you said it. Now you said it. Now you said it. No, I'm kidding.
Speaker 4:Well, isn't that kind of the extreme of having extras, or do you think I'm off base?
Speaker 3:no, because when we've been talking, when it becomes- hoarding, then I guess it's not wise what was that show?
Speaker 2:that there used to be orders a reality, not that show.
Speaker 3:No, no course Of pencils, of course that was a show, no, the show, where it was like the extreme, like coupon clippers.
Speaker 4:Oh, and they would like stockpile.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Because they would like get every single coupon and go to the store and they would have these like storage facilities in their garages where it was like 400 toothpastes and this, and that because it was like such a deal that's my grandpa for them to get it yes, but it was so. It was so extra that it was like what are you ever going to do with all of this? Right? And there there is nothing yeah, so it wasn't as it wasn't like hoarders, in the sense of people's homes, were completely inundated with it, but the idea of hoarding something or getting something is such an extreme.
Speaker 1:Yeah right, well your grandfather that he is fitting exactly the description you're saying the coupon, cutting the, being obsessed with costco and getting us like a 60 pound bag of chips. That's like we don't even need any chips. A 60 pound bag of chips? That's like we don't even need any chips. But it was this price. It's yeah, there's something with like the discount of it and the quantity, like there's a safety and getting this much yep, it's safe.
Speaker 1:If I have this much for this little money, I get to keep my money and have this thing, this big thing that's safe and nourishing and I'm safe, I'm okay. I'm now, I'm okay. I think there's something with that. I feel that with the, with the makeup products, or like the sunblock, I do it a lot with sunblock. It's like I have like a weird obsession with sunblock and if at times in my life I've worked on it, that was my life where I relapsed.
Speaker 3:I remember the sunblock conversations.
Speaker 1:I feel like I might be in a relapse period. I remember those conversations but it's like yeah, like I will feel, like, okay, I'm safe, like I always will have sunblock and I won't have skin cancer and I won't have sun damage and I'll just you know it'll feel like safe a relief getting it.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Or finding it even on the shelf Like yes, I'm safe.
Speaker 3:I don't know. There's a part of me that wants to strive for not having extras. Yeah, same as we're talking about this, definitely Like there's a part of me that wants to have like two coffee cups. Yeah, and I just wash it when I'm done with it and I and I use it tomorrow. Yeah, nobody else in my house drinks coffee. Yeah, so why do I have 15 for?
Speaker 4:john 15 of them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, yeah it's like like you're suddenly gonna be like have 15 people over or like run an orphan.
Speaker 3:Never, yeah, never, you know, then're suddenly going to have 15 people over or run an orphanage Never.
Speaker 4:Yeah, never.
Speaker 3:Then you'd have to have a musical about the orphanage, yeah, so it's like there's a part of me that would strive for that to not have that excess or extra thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Extra things. I admire it. I think there is something simplistic and poetic and just like this is enough.
Speaker 3:I'm done with it. I wash my mug. Yeah, tomorrow's another day, right?
Speaker 1:I wonder if it's too a really american thing to have extras and like more excess, I'm sure, emulate and one of the films we watched was like a swedish couple. Their weather observers is their job and they live a very, very like simplistic life and they're not paid a lot and they just like watch the weather all day and like I'll bet you they have like a coffee cup per person, kind of that. Really simple. What's called higa, isn't that like a swedish thing?
Speaker 3:yeah, right simple living wait, is that what it is? What's the thing where you create like warmth in the winter and it's like a feeling where you like light a fire and you like create that coziness, all right, well, let's see hibernation in the winter. Yeah, you're so like high gear Hi.
Speaker 1:Yeah, nevermind, yeah, that's what it is. I think, they call it Higa quality of coziness and comfortable conviviality that engenders a feeling of contentment, orbeing regarded as a defining characteristic of the danish culture and I think specifically, you really engage in that in the winter months.
Speaker 3:Yeah, as a way to like kind of get through like the bleakness.
Speaker 1:But oh, so everything's small because it's cozy. That's what I was thinking. It's small, yeah, but not that it's minimal, never mind. Never mind, that's all right, but anyway that, yeah, like I think not having extras it can probably engender, to use their word, a sense of like this is enough.
Speaker 3:This is enough.
Speaker 1:Letting go, letting be, because, yeah, I think I'm always striving for the next thing. I totally am Like I really feel that my whole life where it's like oh, I really want to get this one coat and I finally get it. It's not like I'm dancing through the streets with the coat, it's like I'm like where's the next thing?
Speaker 3:What's the next thing? I need another coat. I need extra coats.
Speaker 4:Well, yeah, I need a you know a brown one, now that I have a black one. Yeah, I do that all the time I got to take all these coats to Goodwill.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then, once they're gone, it's like I guess I could get a couple of new ones.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like it's really. I'm really on that. It's never enough. I need to like explore that more.
Speaker 3:I remember there's a podcaster who I actually don't subscribe to her platform anymore because I didn't like her content as much once she had a baby are we now bashing?
Speaker 1:but no, no, she's a great podcast it just didn't resonate, oh god as much because it was a little bit more about being a new mom and and it used to be more about these like general questions of like millennial life. Maybe when I become a parent I'll like totally resubscribe, but you can only subscribe to so many things. You know what I mean.
Speaker 4:It came between five dollars every podcaster on earth maybe when you become a parent, people stop listening to our podcast at home now.
Speaker 1:Please don't do that. But I may resubscribe. I think about it all the time, so I may do that. But anyway, she actually said something so profound that like she has just subscribers, like she doesn't have a free version of her podcast, it's just subscribers, okay. And I calculated like how many she had. She didn't have like tons and tons. I think what she was making from it was somewhere around like $100,000 or something, maybe a little bit more.
Speaker 1:It was closer to like $150,000 or something. I'm sure that goes up and down like as people end and join and whatever 150 or something.
Speaker 1:I'm sure that goes up and down, like as people end and join and whatever. But people had asked her why she didn't also do ads that generate revenue and she doesn't really believe in. She's pretty anti-capitalist and doesn't. She really doesn't believe in marketing and she's like because I don't believe I'm like selling products. She's like I'm basically selling my users like eyes to a corporation and she's like I'm basically selling my users like eyes to a corporation. She's like and I don't believe in that. And she had a really sound argument for it. It really made me like question my own consumer behavior. Not that I would never advertise on our podcast I'm not saying that necessarily but because she would go back and forth and she used to advertise more. But she was like you know, for my subscriber platform, like you know, like what I make is like I. That's enough for me and I'd never really heard someone say that about, especially an amount that it's like she lives in new york city. You know, it's not like she lives in kansas like an expensive cost of living place.
Speaker 1:It was so powerful to hear someone just say, like this amount is enough where I am now is enough and I was like it stayed with with me that I never hear people say that or ever think that this is enough, and I was like, wow, I really am moved by that and I want to be at that place where it's like this is enough, because there's really no amount that any of us it's like. When you get to a certain amount, so often at least, I think of like well, there could be more, it could be easier it could be this, and it's like is it even easier to make more money?
Speaker 1:you just end up wanting more things, or like things get more complicated, like is it truly easier? Maybe not. Yeah, not everything. I think life is easier above a certain poverty line, of course, and that's well-established, but beyond basic needs, you can overcomplicate your life.
Speaker 3:Get rid of the extras.
Speaker 1:Yeah, get rid of them. So what I'm doing is unwise. No, no, no no. I mean, I am ready to see that.
Speaker 3:I think it's wise to think about this question.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is.
Speaker 3:What we do with it. There's, as always, different wisdoms to it Totally, but I think, questioning the reasons, maybe, why or what it gives you, yeah, what it is that you have extras of.
Speaker 1:What it would feel like to let go a little Let go or to just have one of something.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:What would that be like?
Speaker 1:One pen one, sunblock one shampoo bottle in your thing, one coffee mug, one garbage bag.
Speaker 3:One garbage bag.
Speaker 4:Well, one tissue.
Speaker 3:I believe that's a handkerchief.
Speaker 2:Josh.
Speaker 4:One square of toilet paper.
Speaker 1:One square of a handkerchief. You know what someone said recently. You know how people used to say like people call tissues Kleenex, like they call it by the brand name.
Speaker 4:The brand name.
Speaker 1:They're like nowadays it's kind of switched back and everybody just says tissue.
Speaker 3:Huh, I don't think I've ever spent any amount of time thinking about that. I just blew your mind, is Kleenex no longer king. No one cares, I don't know.
Speaker 1:Kleenex is no longer king.
Speaker 3:Really, it's tissue Tissue.
Speaker 1:Hand me a tissue, would you say.
Speaker 4:You make clean air because people go to costco maybe or amazon can't you get kleenex on you?
Speaker 1:can, but it's not like the only major thing there's a better value. Yeah option yeah, so people don't say kleenex yeah, it's kind of moved back and now people say tissue whoa because, like, there are those brands that supersede, like oreo coke yeah totally well, I don't know if coke does, but yeah, I don't either oreo. Aren't there places in the south?
Speaker 3:aren't there places like in the south that call all soda coke, like just as?
Speaker 1:they refer like soda is coke. They just kind of instead of saying soda, they say coke but you know, like the one that is is band-aid, because when we were in ireland and I little my aunt said bandage, Do you need a bandage? And I was like what are we in the 1800s? A bandage, I was like bandage.
Speaker 3:Whenever you're bandaged I think of like an ace bandage.
Speaker 1:Yes, or like someone's whole head being wrapped.
Speaker 4:Yeah, a wounded soldier, yeah, totally.
Speaker 1:You need a bandage. I was like a bandage. Yeah, yeah, band-aid. You're right, that one is maybe the most powerful and you're not supposed to use them anymore. Now all these people are saying just use medical tape, it's better for the cut and no more neosporin. Do you know? You're not supposed to use neosporin anymore. You're just supposed to use vaseline. Not even aquaphor.
Speaker 1:The gold standard is vaseline why, because like the additives in neosporin and there's like one additive, knock for aquaphor is better than neosporin, but it's like the additives in it they're saying actually like do worse it's the new dermatology thing, the cut to healing of the wound and infection probability I've lived my entire life and I know ill effects of neosporin or Band-Aids. You're slowly dying from it.
Speaker 3:Kelly, we're all slowly dying.
Speaker 1:I think you forgot that. I told Josh that sounds like we've got to toss the Neosporin. No more Neosporin.
Speaker 3:No more Neosporin.
Speaker 1:And Vaseline's cheap.
Speaker 3:And more sunscreen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but no extras, but no extras.
Speaker 3:Write that down. Yeah, wow, okay, I didn't think I, you know, I actually didn't think no extras was gonna have or extras was gonna. It was a great question shout out to shane I didn't think it was gonna have as much legs as it did. It really did you know.
Speaker 1:Some of them were open-minded like I don't even know what we're talking about.
Speaker 3:Questions can really generate an interesting yeah, I didn't really know, but sh Shane came through my youngest with the extras.
Speaker 1:Thank you, Shane. Keep dreaming, keep thinking.
Speaker 3:I wasn't not thinking it was going to be good. I just didn't know how the directions we were going to go in.
Speaker 1:I didn't know it was going to be this good.
Speaker 3:I didn't know it was going to be this good Extras.
Speaker 4:Shane is really good. Yeah, he is. He's a really good kid. Did anybody think of?
Speaker 3:extra gum while we were talking about this, for some reason they thought of extra gum, extra gum extra, extra, read all about it like the brand extra gum.
Speaker 1:There's a gum brand named extra, yeah, kind of like extra flavor. You've repressed it and now that we've said this, the word. Have you ever had this?
Speaker 3:where we say the word so much that it just sounds weird.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like extra.
Speaker 3:I mean it's a crazy word. It is a crazy word and it sounds weird now that we're saying
Speaker 1:it Extra Extract. It starts and ends with a vowel and then there's an X in there. I mean crazy.
Speaker 3:And I would say a T-R, t-r, yeah, and I would say a T-R, a T-R, a T-Rex.
Speaker 4:We've just spelled it. I think it's the mandala effect.
Speaker 3:Way to bring it back. It never existed Way to bring it full circle, oh man. Oh, my God, this has been another great episode. That's the alternate name for our pod, the mandala the mandala That'll be in our next T-shirt. Coloring books that'll be in our next t-shirt. Coloring books yeah, okay thank you so much for joining us everyone. We'll catch you next week. Yeah, you can find me at buttsjonathan at gmailcom.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you can find me at kkpsychotherapycom. If you want to work with me or send us any questions, suggestions, anything like that. You can reach me there and josh you can find me at joshbayerfilmscom.
Speaker 4:Bear like the aspirin Love you. Can't wait to work with you.
Speaker 1:And thank you to Blanket Ports for the music.
Speaker 4:Thank you to Blanket Ports, as always, for the music.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and we'll catch you next time. Take care, bye, bye. The Wise Mind Happy Hour podcast is for entertainment purposes only, not to be treated as medical advice. If you are struggling with your mental health, please seek medical attention or counseling.