The Wise Mind Happy Hour
Two therapists musing about the idea of an inner wise mind and how to connect with this psychic space in different contexts.
The Wise Mind Happy Hour
the wisdom of NOT GETTING BETTER
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"If I improved my spending habits, then I wouldn't be able to get stuff."
- Kelly Kilgallon, LCSW
We unpack this (and more) on our latest episode.
- music by blanket forts -
Welcome to the Wise Mind Happy Hour. I'm John. I'm.
Speaker 2Kelly, welcome, we're your therapists.
Speaker 1You're well not really your therapist, but we could be. Yeah, we could be your on-ramp to therapy, that's true, or your weekly podcast therapy, yeah.
Speaker 3Yeah, we could like be your on-ramp to therapy or your off-ramp if you're like struggling to let go a little and you need to.
Speaker 1I like that.
Speaker 3You talk to us each week.
Speaker 1We can, yeah, just ease that burn a little bit.
Speaker 3Yeah, we'd love to do that.
Speaker 2I'd love to yeah, so what's going on?
Speaker 3Tell me what's new with you. Spoiler alert we did catch up a little off mic, which is kind of illegal.
Speaker 1Well, it's too hard to not talk about block parties, which I was telling you that my block had one and it's very laissez-faire, is maybe the term. There's nobody really out participating, except for the person who runs it and maybe a couple of families. Oh, there is someone who runs it. Well, is there ever somebody who runs?
Speaker 3it.
Speaker 1Yeah, it's like an HOA president it's like a person who has a listserv gets other neighbors on the listserv and then, kind of like, gives an update that it's upcoming, and then they are the ones who post the sign on the street.
Speaker 3Right, okay, is it a woman? I don't know, oh, you don't.
Speaker 1I think it is maybe but anyway the way, if I were to paint a picture, there's a city block that's closed off and the cars move, and so it's really fun because the streets open, but there's, in my block party, nothing in the street because nobody's participating.
Speaker 2It's simply a closed off street.
Speaker 1Yeah, it's pretty much a closed off street, which is still fun. The kids have a great time riding the vehicles, the bikes, yeah, tossing the football, the baseball, doing all of that in the street. Plus, you can just run in the street, which is fun, yeah. But there's only like this cluster of people towards the end of the block, that kind of like participate in it, and then it's just like a barren wasteland of, yeah, non-participation and are they drinking?
Speaker 1probably I didn't go down to that end. I like walked down there once or twice just to check in on my kids and kind of like scope the scene, but yeah I think so yeah, yeah, I mean you kind of got it was a party yeah, labor day yeah, labor day.
Speaker 3Wow, the block party on Labor Day.
Speaker 1It was the day before, actually, oh okay, I misspoke there.
Speaker 3Sunday Labor Day weekend.
Speaker 4Okay, yes, fair enough.
Speaker 1So, yeah, wow, but first taste we were just talking about the first taste of maybe I don't know more independence for children, because it can be. It's not an enclosed space, but you're outside and there's parameters.
Speaker 3Right and it's kind of like you can just run Right, because we were pondering you know I think I mentioned this on the pod once that I felt as though when I was a kid, my life peaked at Christmas and the block party, and it was kind of nice because there are two anchors, like one in the middle of winter, one in the middle of winter, one in the middle of summer. Um, and I really would.
Speaker 1I would get excited for the block party like you can't even imagine like I truly came alive and I would choreograph a dance with my friends were these friends that lived on the block or did you invite them?
Speaker 3they lived on the block. Callie sarge is in for the hell like shout out.
Speaker 1Was there a big contingent of people that would come that didn't live on the block?
Speaker 3So when I was younger the first block I lived on called Leader, which is in Edgebrook. If anyone knows that neighborhood in Chicago, it's very, very far northwest. Yeah, so nobody knows it. So nobody knows it and that neighborhood there would be tons of people who didn't live on the block. There were tons of people on that one, the one when I lived on Kenneth and Sauganash, that mostly just the block.
Speaker 3I feel like sometimes it smelled like my cousins would maybe come or some family friends would come. We always got the snow cone machine. Yeah, that's a big draw. Yeah, totally, um, which was so fun. And then, yeah, there's like a bounce house, there was fire truck, but it's just like there was something about it that and when I really reflect on, like just riding around your bikes with your friends, it's like why did I care this much about it? But you, you were saying it's like you maybe have the first taste of independence. Your parents are like around but they're not really watching and you get to like venture out.
Speaker 1Yeah, and it's not a school function.
Speaker 3Yeah, it's nothing to do with school.
Speaker 1So I think there's something that's more independent.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 1Than like if your parents took you to like a school function and they were around.
Speaker 3Yeah, no teachers.
Speaker 1There's no teachers. There's no yeah.
Speaker 3Yeah, that's probably a big part of it.
Speaker 1Yeah, that's what I thought I mean my, I think my kids enjoyed, like you could just kind of run anywhere, but you could also go in the house and then come back out and yeah.
Block Party Stories and Childhood Freedom
Speaker 3Yeah, kind of like, just do whatever you want, do whatever you want, and there's kind of it's like almost like college, like there's a party sort of everywhere anywhere yeah you can also like go back to your dorm and be alone.
Speaker 1You could study so the fire truck did show up this year and of course it showed up to the end of the block.
Speaker 1That was actually like engaged in the party so it wasn't near my end, where my home is and where we were sitting, and my oldest son ran, you know, up there just to like check it out. He didn't really run, actually, he wasn't that pumped about it, but he went up there and then he came back and the fire truck was gone and I was like what's the deal? And he was like, oh, they actually got a real call and so they had to leave it was there for like five minutes I was was like oh, we're still on call.
Speaker 3That makes it feel real.
Speaker 4Yeah, You're like so you're not just riding the same route.
Speaker 1But none of the kids got to wear any of the gear or like put on the you know, how they yes, and they're like just completely like taken over by it, right so that and then the bounce house didn't get delivered this year. It was just kind of yeah, not the best some personnel issues but my. That just shows that kids can have fun no matter what, because my kids had a blast during it. And yeah, just, I think, the freedom of being. I think maybe there's also a danger element in it where you feel I'm in the street.
Speaker 3Yes, yes, that is part of it.
Speaker 1Where it's like I just can be in the street.
Speaker 3Yeah, I'm like where cars are.
Speaker 1Where cars are, I don't have to look, yeah, like I can just be in the car.
Speaker 4Yeah, there's like a freedom.
Speaker 1Yeah, totally.
Speaker 3That's so fun.
Speaker 4Like they're on the wild side of childhood.
Speaker 3Yeah, and Josh is new to the concept of a block party because he grew up in the Detroit suburbs and you never had one. That wasn't something.
Speaker 5No block parties. No one congregated, everyone shut in their homes. No community.
Speaker 2I don't know, if that's really true, slash you had super community.
Speaker 5No, we did. Well, yeah, I feel like growing up in elementary school there were the people on the street knew each other. I don't think there was ever a sanctioned block party, right. I think you would have a birthday party and, like a lot of people from the street would be attending and that's probably the closest thing.
Speaker 3Yeah, well, I think it's a city thing, isn't it? It's a city thing, right, not a suburb thing.
Speaker 1I don't know. I mean, yeah, I not a suburb thing I don't know. Um, I mean, yeah, I guess so, because I've never seen one in the suburbs. When I lived in the suburbs growing up, I did my block, did not have a block party, but, like I was mentioning earlier where my grandparents lived, I thought they had a block party and I, technically I mean it was like oh, okay, their address was milwaukee, but it wasn't really like the city. But that's where I lived so then there you go, is that I?
Speaker 3think there's almost. This is gonna sound funny. I think in the city it's sort of like we get to run around in the street and it's safe and party, party. And when you live in the suburbs you gotta do that anyway, because it's like pretty safe and like yeah, it's not as traffic you think you're safe till you get hit by a car.
Speaker 5Yeah, I like it. Just trying to sell lemonade A speeding Mercedes.
Speaker 3Yeah, yeah, yeah, just trying to sell lemonade.
Speaker 4Lemonade stands snafu yeah.
Speaker 1I don't know.
Speaker 3Yeah, maybe it is a city thing, then I think it might be that the city like does it to like promote a sense of community, because city people struggle to be neighbors more than suburb people typically maybe because you also like the suburbs does make it easy because, like the kids all go to the same school yeah, the suburbs does make it easy, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5Well, no, there'd be multiple schools, but like, let's say, here's a city, farmington, hills. All right, how many elementary schools? Five, that's a lot I guess yeah then you go to middle school and it's like you know all the kids are coming from across the tracks yeah, the kids.
Speaker 3You've never seen the bad kids and it's like, oh la la yeah, yeah, those kids could have been at your block party and you could have known them years ago.
Speaker 5But I didn't, because so I knew Dave Chappelle's block party, which I never saw.
Speaker 3Oh, is that a show? I think it was a movie Like a comedy.
Speaker 5It was like a feature length comedy special.
Speaker 3Documentary.
Speaker 5Music doc.
Speaker 3There's a band block party. Love them yeah british.
Speaker 5I saw them at lollapalooza 2007 are they?
Speaker 1I was gonna say, are they still a band, even?
Speaker 5I think they kind of make music. I feel like they were one of those bands and people are gonna like skewer me for saying this where they came out with like one really good album, like their debut album, and then kind of everything since then has been but I think they're still making music got it.
Speaker 4Yeah, they're still out there they're still out there.
Speaker 5They're still out there. Okay, running amok.
Speaker 1Yeah Well, maybe it's all just a ruse to have people rent bounce houses.
Speaker 3Yeah, it's the bounce house. It's a big bounce house.
Speaker 3That's what it is Get these bounce houses out there it's true, our nieces were at a county fair type thing, because my sister, sister-in-law, her dad has this like truck, a food truck essentially, oh um, and so we went to see it and there was like a festival going on with it and my littlest niece like went in the bounce house and she like sometimes you can't totally understand what she's saying, but she was like talking on and on about the block or the bounce house and she's like I went into pink one and a yellow one and a pink one and she was like such you know like so elated telling us about it.
Speaker 3I'm like man. Kids love these bounces oh yeah, it's, it's everything. So, yeah, maybe it is like the place to get a bounce house other than a birthday, I don't know, and a birthday it's kind of a tall order I don't know, and a birthday it's kind of a tall order?
Speaker 1I don't yeah.
Speaker 3That would be a lot. We get a lot. You have to have a yard too.
Speaker 1You got to have a big enough space to put it.
Speaker 3Yeah, yeah, okay, but anyway, that was kind of like so that's what you guys did.
Speaker 1Yeah, that was part of the weekend, was just this block party that never really took off.
Speaker 3Yeah, and yet people had fun. And yet people had fun.
Speaker 1It was what it was it was the people that participated seemed to be really enjoying it.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1What about you? It's great you were in Michigan.
Speaker 3Me and Josh went to Michigan. Yeah to yeah, visit family, visit friends. It was really nice. We had such a fun time.
Speaker 5So nice.
Speaker 3Yeah, our two of our friends actually moved. They lived in chicago for a while in logan square and they just moved back to detroit.
Speaker 4there josh knew brad she went to brad um in high school brad domes um knew him in high school.
Speaker 3He was a little bit older than josh um very intimidated I became friends with his wife and him and and they had a baby and after having the baby, they moved back to detroit and um, they've been gone a week from chicago. And we came and they had a baby and after having the baby they moved back to detroit and um, they've been gone a week from chicago.
Speaker 2And we came and they didn't even know we were going. You know, like we've been gone a week and we're already seeing you again, after we just like said a big goodbye and everything.
Speaker 3It was kind of funny. But their place is so cool, it's in detroit proper and it's very like cool and artsy and artists used to live in their space. So it's like funky and cool and and they're great decorators.
Speaker 5And they had a sandbox in the backyard.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 5It was like a real, like an actual box, like a wooden kind of almost like pig pen filled with sand, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3Real art, but it also had a like a Japanese vibe to it, Like there were rocks and grass and like artistic bushes and it was really cool. Um yeah, so that was so fun to go and see them and the baby and um, our other friends were there, which was great adam and morgan so fun to see them. They're about to have a baby about to put one out, yeah everyone's having babies it's baby fever.
Speaker 5It's baby fever yeah, lots of lots of one-year-olds to hang with. Yeah, it's very entertaining.
Speaker 3Yeah, we've had like a rash of hanging with little kids and it's been really fun. Um, and we're going next week in new york to see my friend's baby, my friend leah, and her little baby ariel, which we're psyched about.
Speaker 1It's just babies all over. It's babies all over.
Speaker 5It's been the season of witnessing babies, yeah.
Speaker 3And they're loving us, I got to say I got to toot our horn.
Speaker 5We're crushing it with the babies. We're crushing it with the babies. We're 3-0 going into a big match this weekend.
Speaker 1I'm going to see how it goes. Are you telling them to listen to the podcast?
Speaker 3Yeah, I said to Josh I was like every time, my nieces, like when I try to talk to them and they're just like staring at the TV. I'll be like I guess you guys haven't heard my podcast, yeah.
Speaker 1So yeah, I mean, this could be a whole new audience that we're not tapping into.
Speaker 3I know. No, just play a couple of the right tunes, yeah, if you two are magical with the babies.
Speaker 1Get them to subscribe.
Speaker 3Yeah, I mean really I feel like we've been doing a good job with the kids, put them to sleep.
Speaker 1Put the podcast on. Put the podcast on, they'll fall right asleep. If they're finicky, they'll just go right to sleep.
Speaker 3Yeah, but yeah, we hung out with Josh's mom and Jeff his stepdad, and it was so fun. Your grandparents- that was josh's grandpa did talk a lot about costco yeah, don't steal my idea.
Speaker 5I'm gonna make a short doc about my grandpa's obsession with costco.
Speaker 3Yeah, uh, you can't make the doc because he's not your grandpa your grandfather, but he really he, for the first time ever, said one negative thing about costco and I my jaw hit the floor and which is what?
Speaker 1so he brought a bunch of fruit, or should?
Speaker 5we save this for the your documentary that's fine okay no, I don't remember teaser spoiler spoilers galore, come and see it, it's not yet made yeah, so he brought fruit.
Speaker 3We went on his mom's boat, um his mom and jeff's boat and he brought fruit um, like a big thing of fruit from. Costco and we were eating it and I was like, oh, this is so good. I was like you know, Josh, and I got fruit this week that was terrible. Like all, of it was pretty bad this last week and he's like I know this fruit's pretty good and then he touches my arm, he's like I have gotten fruit.
Speaker 2That wasn't that good and I was like, oh wow.
Speaker 3But he still couldn't say it at like full volume, he had to kind of whisper it.
Speaker 1Yeah, like I've gotten a few things there, but that's still a growth edge right there of him.
Speaker 2Definitely His vulnerability.
Speaker 3Yeah, it was incredible because, Costco has become a bit of a religion.
Speaker 1Yeah, more so than my grandmother, and I think it is. It is a bit of a religion.
Speaker 3for some people it is Right yeah. Like get all your gas there, get everything there, just get everything there. Yeah.
Speaker 1Yeah, I mean we're stuck. People were obsessed with, like. I've read the articles about, like the. What are they? The sheet cakes there, the birthday cakes, yeah. People get obsessed about that.
Speaker 3They're good. And the roast chicken yeah, roast chicken, yeah like people get obsessed about that we heard all about the chicken this weekend that they're twice the size of the normal ones for half the price yes which is that big chicken, yeah, big bounce house, big chicken but is the chicken?
Speaker 1why are we questioning why it's that big? Yeah, it's pumped full of hormones, right?
Speaker 2I mean't going to say that, yeah right, let's not just tout it.
Speaker 4It's like they've cornered the market on where these really robust chickens live. That are lifting weights.
Speaker 5Have you seen Chicken Run?
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 5It's just all the characters from that movie.
Speaker 4Yeah, is that like Claymation? It is Claymation or something. Yeah, is that like claymation.
Speaker 1It is claymation or something yeah.
Speaker 5I feel like those chickens like do a lot of exercise.
Speaker 1It's like a Wallace and Gromit or whatever.
Speaker 4Yeah.
Speaker 1Type of situation.
Speaker 4Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes me want to watch that.
Speaker 1I know, those are big chickens.
Speaker 2Yeah, I know the sheet cakes. Hopefully have fewer hormones. I doubt it, yeah, and the hot dog.
Speaker 3You know, you get a hot dog for $1.50 still. Oh is that, yeah, you get it for $1.50 and you can get a soda that you can refill as many times as you want. For another $1.50 suit three bucks.
Speaker 1You know, I just read that reminded me I read some crazy article about how like it was, like, uh, we know that, tariffs and everything. We know that this is like gonna ruin the world because apparently you know arizona iced tea yeah, yeah you know the arnold palmer? Yeah, like the tall can of it. Yes, apparently they're no longer gonna sell them for 99 cents, which those have been sold for 99 cents since like the mid 90s and they haven't changed that at all.
Speaker 599 cents is like engraved on the can. It's like the largest.
Speaker 1It's larger than the Arizona iced tea so they came out with a statement that were like due to, they were like this is the last, this is the last like pillar of, like you know it's not going to affect certain things, but apparently the Arnold Palmer is going to go. I forget what the price is a dollar, maybe it's $1.49 or I'm not sure.
Speaker 3Yeah, Often I feel like when things go up from 99 cents it's like $1.29, but maybe with tariffs it's $1.49.
Speaker 5Yeah. So now on the can, are they going to say $1.49? I don't know can. Are they going to say $1.49?
Speaker 1I don't know. They're just going to leave it. I don't think the article. I think Arizona came out with like a you know press release about how they're going to have to raise it and I think they did come out with a price. But I don't think the design of the can. They didn't mention anything about the design. But I think it was the mid nineties that that's been like that us.
Speaker 3I love that keeping the price.
Speaker 5Keeping the price yeah wait, I'm thinking like I know we don't often bring up trump out of the desire to true suffer. It's like um, it's like voldemort, but I saw, I saw a commercial.
Speaker 3Have you guys seen those fentanyl commercials that are like trump backed? No, I don't think about, like, not using fentanyl. I mean, it was pretty weird should I play?
Speaker 1it. I have not seen it was really upsetting. These are recent.
Speaker 3They've just been yeah and it was a you know very trumpy where it was like just stop being a fentanyl addict. It was kind of the message I was like great a lot of nuance that's helpful advice yeah, no, I haven't seen that. Yeah, interesting um, but yeah, anyway, I digress from wherever we were. Arizona ist. Yeah, let's get back into safety yeah, arizona ist no, but that made me.
Speaker 1When you had mentioned the cost. You can still get certain things.
Speaker 3Yeah, the dollar 50 since they opened, I think, the hot dog. So maybe back in the day that was like a pretty reasonable price and now it's very cheap, man. Yeah, but then again, what are those hot dogs made out of?
Speaker 1probably the robust chickens, the leftover, leftover, robust, I don't know I don't know, I don't know yeah, those I mean definitely a cult following, which we're not opposed to talking about cults on this podcast. We've done it before and we will do it again. I'm sure Get some of those Costco subscribers.
Speaker 3Yeah, definitely yeah. I think it's a very interesting doc.
Speaker 5Thank you, it has not yet been made Well. I have been chronicling my grandparents since the womb, but only recently have decided.
Speaker 2Since their womb. Since their womb, yeah, recently have decided Since their womb Since their womb.
Speaker 5Yeah, Since we were all in a womb together. But then it's taken the Costco twist.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 5The twist of fate, that's the magic ingredient.
Speaker 3Am I being?
Speaker 5repetitious. Have we talked about this on this pod? I don't know? Ugh, I better stop. It feels fresh, okay, but did we talk about how we came to the conclusion that all the award winners at the film festival we were at seemed all to be about, uh, young children or old?
Speaker 1people.
Speaker 5Yes, okay, did mention so then we've probably talked about that is familiar.
Speaker 3Yeah, yeah yeah, oh, by the way, josh's film won at the last film festival oh congratulations, my co-film yeah, josh co, yeah, josh, co-wrote I co-wrote and I think we can safely say edited.
Speaker 5But out here, the homelessness doc that I worked on last year has been getting into many film festivals.
Speaker 2That's amazing. Just one, yeah.
Film Talk: Anatomy of a Fall
Speaker 5I'm going to go out on a limb and say best of fest. It won best short at the Sacramento Film Festival.
Speaker 3Which is really kind of cool, because it didn't win best documentary short. It won best short.
Speaker 5Yeah. So the narrative films were in there too, I guess it won the festival which is a first for me of any film. That's amazing.
Speaker 4Congratulations.
Speaker 5Thank you.
Speaker 4Shout out Lisa and Dog and Wesley Silver and Mark Sawyer Shout out, shout out, shout out, you should send it to John.
Speaker 5I'd say I'll send it to you, John, Please. Yeah.
Speaker 3Yeah, you'd like it, you and Sarah.
Speaker 5I'm sure I would like it.
Speaker 3Yeah, it's 27 minutes.
Speaker 5It's 27 minutes.
Speaker 1I would watch it if it was 27 hours.
Speaker 3Oh, 127 hours yeah.
Speaker 1I know.
Speaker 3Yeah, I know. Yeah, that was low-hanging fruit right there. Did you guys see that?
Speaker 1movie. Yeah, no, yeah me neither. It's like we all know the gist. I just don't want to. He saws off his arm. Yeah, I know, I really don't want to subject myself to that movie.
Speaker 2Well, especially now that we know that James Franco is such like a monster.
Speaker 1But even before that I didn't really want to do this fair? Um, yeah, I am, I know we have.
Speaker 3We do have a topic yeah, we do have a topic there is a.
Speaker 1There is a film I'm watching which I was. I should have brought this up earlier if you guys have seen it, especially if johnson uh, anatomy of a fall loved it obsessed. I have like maybe 40 minutes left of it, so don't give it away, but okay, we'll talk about it next. So good that actress I mean I'm yeah, it's, she's got me, but I'm not.
Speaker 1I haven't been thinking about much else other than that so I started it and I shouldn't have done this I started it last night really late and then I stayed up too late but I still couldn't finish it and I've just been thinking about it all day. It's great it was in the theater. When it was the theater, I really wanted to go see it and it just didn't work out Like I just never made it to the theater, and then I forgot about it, and now it's on a streaming service that I have.
Speaker 3Wait, what's your favorite scene so far? I'm just wondering if you've seen one of the key scenes.
Speaker 1What.
Speaker 3I'm just curious what that's a good question.
Speaker 1What is one of my favorite scenes? I mean, I I like when they play the audio of in the courtroom of the fight and then they actually go back and kind of show them interacting, because this whole time you don't know the partner dad at all other than through the dialogue of people kind of talking about him, and then he actually like comes to life in the scene.
Speaker 1Yes, after he's been dead, the entire movie, right. So that was kind of like whoa, like very gripping, and just the acting in that scene the acting in that scene I don't know, that was my favorite scene oh, that was my favorite. That's what I'm hoping you were gonna say yeah, so great but I also think that film does not have a score or a soundtrack, which I think makes films to me much more gripping like no country for old men. One of my favorite movies it has no, has no score wow, is that true?
Speaker 5yes we watched that pretty recently that movie, movie.
Speaker 3You're standing on edge.
Speaker 1I'm pretty sure and that was intentional by the Coen brothers that it has no music or score to it.
Speaker 3I kind of like that, as much as I like music. I do kind of like that.
Speaker 5I don't like when a movie's overscored.
Speaker 3Oh, that is the worst.
Speaker 1Yeah, Now I'm not against scores, by any means. Certainly music can add so much. Yeah, like David Fincher scores, so like yeah absolutely, and I think it is very gripping and it's almost like noticeable to me when one I don't know how often it happens, but I feel like this one really doesn't it has the kid playing the piano in different scenes and it certainly has that song that's played repetitiously in the beginning of the film.
Speaker 5It's like 50 Cent's P-I-M-P but the instrumental version. But those are. That's like the only exactly.
Speaker 1That's like the only music. It's so stressful.
Speaker 5It's like looping for like five minutes really well. And then he turns the volume up. Yeah.
Speaker 1But anyway. So that's. Oh, what a great film, Gripping. I'm going to finish that tonight. I'd re-watch that.
Speaker 3Did you?
Speaker 1Because that actress is also in. Yeah, I was trying to think of if I had seen her in anything else she was in two Oscar movies that year Jewish.
Speaker 5Yeah, the Jewish one. Why are we suddenly? We talk about it all the time. I bring this up I was going to say like Hidden Recipe.
Speaker 1Oh, Zone of Interest.
Speaker 5That's one of my favorite movies of recent.
Speaker 1Did not watch that movie yet Real true uplift.
Speaker 3Incredible.
Speaker 2That movie, literally, we're watching it.
Speaker 1Did we tell you what happened when we watched it? I think that movie kind of scared me when I was like saw the because I saw the preview a bunch of times.
Speaker 3Yeah. So we're watching that movie and we went to Alamo Draft House. Have you been to Alamo Draft House?
Speaker 1I haven't. I usually don't go there, but I want to go there.
Speaker 3It's fun. You should go there sometime, you and Sarah, so we'll just leave your kids at home.
Speaker 1I mean they don't need anybody, they have a block party.
Speaker 5Your kids need to see Zone of Interest. I know ASAP.
Speaker 3We were watching it and the movie. I mean, there's things that happen in that movie where people are just like, oh, like in shock you know, I'm sure. There's a lot of like Nazi movies that are like really like there's a lot of tears. This is a lot of like horror more.
Speaker 5Well, it's like funny, but in a way that's like truly chilling when you like, can't laugh and it's chilling and it's crazy.
Speaker 3But so, josh, I almost laughed because they, josh at Elmo Draft, was they serve you at your chair? Yeah, right, and Josh wanted another coffee or something.
Speaker 5I was having a second beer A second beer.
Speaker 2So in the middle of this movie you can hear a pin drop. Yeah, josh is going to like I'll take another and Josh is like I could do this because I'm Jewish.
Speaker 4Josh is like yeah, over here yeah.
Speaker 2I'll take another beer. No, no, ro B Like literally and we were both like yikes.
Speaker 1And the judge was like it's fine, I'm a filmmaker.
Speaker 2I'm Jewish and I'm a filmmaker. I can do this.
Speaker 1I'm Jewish and I'm a filmmaker, oh my god no, that movie, the previews alone. And then I like read more about it and I was like I don't, I really have to be In a space to be able to watch this. Oh, it's.
Speaker 3it's one of the most chilling things you'll ever see. Yeah, it's so well done. I mean you got to give it up to the guy who did it, but she's in that, that action, she's in that.
Speaker 1And she is incredible in that she and they, when they present where is she from? She's german. She is german, yeah, because in the in the anatomy of a fall.
Speaker 5She mentions she was like yeah, I'm speaking, I'm from germany.
Speaker 1Yes, and I had a. You know, she says like I was from a shithole or whatever in germany right now I'm in this one, um, but she's speaking french throughout in english and yeah, okay, yeah, okay, yeah, I think she does.
Speaker 3The actress speaks multiple languages, but she, um she was talking about, she was interviewed for that movie and she said when they showed her the script, they didn't tell her what it was about, when, when it was like pitched to her by her team and they didn't tell any of the actors the actual plot of the movie and then when she heard it she was like I'm not fucking doing, and then they kind of talked her into it. But kind of interesting, intense.
Speaker 1Intense. Well, I can't wait to debrief after I watch the rest of it.
Speaker 3Oh yeah, Totally Great film.
Speaker 1So I figured you all had seen it.
Speaker 3Yeah, yeah, we were good about the Oscar movies that year, I feel like we were on a roll. Last year maybe we weren't so good.
Speaker 5No, was that a strong year, or were we stronger that year?
Speaker 2We were stronger.
Speaker 5We weren't throwing a wedding. So, perhaps this year we'll be very aggressive on the filmmaking Filmmaking, sure and film going Sure and consuming Sure as per usual.
Speaker 3Speaking of filmmaking, I do get grand ideas in my head when you and I go to the festivals where I'm like I could make a doc, you could.
Speaker 5I would love to collaborate with you.
Speaker 2I would love to we have the pod, so it's like leave some space.
Speaker 5I think we'd be a great team.
Speaker 1Why aren't we making a doc about the pod we?
Speaker 5should, because it would be nepotistic.
Speaker 1Wouldn't be fair to the other children.
Speaker 3But it would be gold. It would be gold Because you're doing it, See.
Speaker 1I have these grand ideas and then I don't do any of the work.
Speaker 4I'm like yeah, you two can do that, dude, talk about the pot.
Speaker 1I'll show up, I'll keep showing up.
Speaker 5That's called being a filmmaker.
Speaker 3At least being a director.
Speaker 1Just like you know the days I walk in and you're like ah yeah, that means you can direct it, if you want to do anything, right?
Speaker 4Just kidding, shout out.
Speaker 3Lisa.
Speaker 1Klein no, just kidding. Can I just show orders to people and then they'll do them.
Speaker 3But that's honestly more me. When you think about working with me when we did group therapy, I'm the one who did nothing and gave orders.
Speaker 1Well, not to you, but to others. You did the therapy, which is the thing that you actually. That's so true, it was all of the things around the therapy, like the admin, and that you just didn't like simply. So it was like I'm just gonna I'm just gonna take the like chocolate filling out of this, whatever it is and really enjoy that, that that is my entire personality. And then everything around it that's like crusty and a little bit dry. Not gonna touch that with a 10 foot pole.
Speaker 2Let's just see if someone else takes care of that for me.
Speaker 1Somebody else might take care of that. Like John, he's a generator.
Speaker 3Yeah, john's a generator, josh is a generator, they'll just do it. They put their shoulder to the wheel.
Speaker 5I just putz around doing whatever Kelly tells me to do.
Speaker 1Some things of my own, Well that's what sharing an office with her was like. No, I'm kidding you have great ideas you eventually did it and you found a way to motivate yourself.
Speaker 3Yeah, I did, and it's like if someone really got upset then I'd be like all right, enough's enough, I'll do it, but until then I really would.
Speaker 1Yeah, See, that's funny because I don't think you ever. I think your initial reaction to things that was non-therapy was yes, I'll do that. And then it was when you sat down and actually thought about it. You're like why did I say yes to that?
Speaker 2Yeah, I don't want any part of this.
Speaker 3I don't want any part of this.
Speaker 1So I think you do have that bone in your body to help and to want to help, but then it's like when you actually sit down you're just like ooh yeah.
Speaker 3Seems like a lot of work.
Speaker 1Sounds like someone else is going to be better at this Sounds like you're not going to have a job. Yeah.
Speaker 3Well, it is funny too, because all those skills would have come in handy, like planning a wedding and like I. Just I don't have those.
Speaker 5Like oh, I made a spreadsheet and then I did this and I'm like I don't do that for anything in my life no, but you are really good at saying several times throughout the week oh, we need to do this, I need to do this, I need to do this, to the point that I get very stressed and I end up doing it. Yeah, so you're good at reminding that's another thing.
Speaker 3I'll just kind of be like we need to do, and our josh once called me out on this. He's like you'll say we, when you mean me that's fair, but I also like take ownership.
Speaker 5I'm not good at I hear the we as a me and I've I've helped make it into a me so I'll take ownership for that but I, but I hear you that that would annoy me.
Speaker 3If you were like we need to clean the shower and you met me, that would annoy me as well listen.
Speaker 1I think that probably a lot of couples or just families probably run into that because I mean I know that there have been iterations where sarah and I have run into that, where one of us will say, well, we need to do this and it's really like so are you saying and we would clear. We finally got to a point of like clarifying where it's like are you really saying we are doing this or are you like suggesting or asking me to do this for you, because it would just be like let's just lean into the ask.
Speaker 3Just ask, and that's what you said.
Speaker 5You're like I prefer you just ask me, which I think is great clarity and kind of vaguely suggest Just be like can you do this ASAP?
Speaker 1Do you like that? Because I like that.
Speaker 5I weirdly do. That's just a personal preference.
Speaker 1I don't think it's weird at all. I tell Sarah that all the time I was like I prefer to just like I feel useful, I feel like I know there's something I need to do You're telling me you want me to do it Go to do. You're telling me like you want me to do it goal objective. I can get it done. I don't do well in the well.
Speaker 3We should do this or it's that kind of like throws me for a loop and you know, as the person given orders that are indirect, I realize that I realize when I am confronted with this and I have to say will you clean out? The shower.
Speaker 2The person themselves has to confront the fact that you are giving orders and you probably don't have any right to do that and you know it's like, but that's the good thing about it, and you both asking for it.
Speaker 3You make the person confront what they're actually doing so, then you're more considered and more wise minded when you do it.
Speaker 4Sure.
Speaker 3Because, because you're like, is it fair for me to ask josh to clean the 27th thing today?
Speaker 1and you've cleaned absolutely well, there's the so there and there's the wise-minded. Are you able to maintain the wise mind in that moment? If it's a no, totally yeah, and it's like I've done 26 things already right.
Speaker 3Or if josh were to say, like, would you mind doing it? Yeah, I, I would be like, sure I would never say that Worst case scenario.
Speaker 5I would say can you wait a week till I finish this cut of the documentary I'm working on?
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1Kelly would say let me check with my assistant.
Speaker 2Yeah, let me see if I can find someone else in this apartment to do it. We need an assistant. It's certainly not going to be me. Yeah, let me see if I can find someone else in this apartment to do it.
Speaker 1We need an assistant, it's certainly not going to be me, yeah.
Speaker 5Everyone has an assistant, an intern, somebody to roll your calls. Yeah.
Speaker 3Absolutely Could you imagine.
Speaker 1Yeah, totally, we've really gone around here. Yeah, it could be, a whole episode on just this type of stuff.
Speaker 2I know, maybe there'll be a topic and we just like spiff.
Speaker 1That kind of is most days, don't you think?
Speaker 3Yeah, wait, what's the word?
Speaker 1I was going to say spiff.
Speaker 4Riff.
Speaker 2Riff? I don't think spiff is anything Like spiffy?
Speaker 1Yeah, like spiffy.
Speaker 5I'm going to get it done in a spiff.
Speaker 1Or a spin riff, spindrift, spindrift.
Speaker 5Yeah.
Speaker 3Spin-riff, spin-drift, oh, spin-drift, a spin-drift is a real thing In the book I'm reading. They will say spin-drift.
Speaker 2Oh, what does that mean? Do you know what it is?
Speaker 3No, I think it's like the spray that comes off the ocean when you're in a boat. The spin-drift. Or it's like if someone jumps in the water and there's a little backs because it's come up numerous times.
Speaker 1I just thought it was a drink.
Speaker 3Yeah, I know Another thing where it's like the company has kind of co-opted, this Works and I love it, so maybe we should get into our actual topic.
Speaker 1Yeah, let's transition into our topic.
When We Don't Want to Get Better
Speaker 3Yeah, so today we're going to talk about the concept of not wanting to get better, so we're leaving this kind of like broad yeah. You know we could call it like resistance and therapy, but we're thinking about it even like broadly, like inside therapy, outside of therapy. Just, you know, thinking about like when have any of us just felt like we in a moment?
Speaker 3we don't want to get better, we don't want to, like, resolve something. We don't want to resolve something, we kind of want to dig our heels in. So what comes up for you when you hear that?
Speaker 1The first thing that always comes to mind when I hear that and when we were talking pre-show about this. Certainly my mind goes to resistance, which is probably just more of a clinical term.
Speaker 1We don't have to use that term, which is probably just more of a clinical term. We don't have to use that term and I think another I guess another clinical term that comes to mind is the willfulness, the stubbornness which I think people come to that honestly. So I don't want you know. Willfulness is a DBT term, so a dialectical behavior therapy term, and sometimes it gets confused when I'm working with people because they think willfulness is a quote-unquote good thing.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 1And they judge it as like. Well, I had the will to do something.
Speaker 1And that's not from more of a DBT perspective. Willfulness is more of that stubbornness, getting in your own way, not being open, being more rigid, and so I think people might be willful and not know it per se. Yeah, but when we're dealing with not getting better at least clinically with people, my mind kind of gravitates towards, is this a are they embodying this willfulness? They're, they're closed off to, to getting better or to new ideas, or they think you don't have anything to offer. Cause, something I will hear a lot is I've been in a lot of therapy in my life.
Speaker 3Yeah, yes, it can come up there Um frequent fly life.
Speaker 1Yeah, yes, it can come up there Frequent flyers Right, and that idea of like I probably won't get better because I've done this many years of therapy. So those are some of the things that come to mind with me.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 1Totally and just. Some people are truly very hopeless about themselves, right, some people are truly very hopeless about themselves and really are like in despair about their capabilities or their resilience or their ability to change, just as a person.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 1Which is really really hard to sit with, and sad when people think. I'm hopeless or there's nothing I can do. Yeah, I'm hopeless or there's nothing I can do. So again, I don't think it's always people intentionally, though it can be kind of digging their heels in right sometimes people truly believe that they can't yeah, quote unquote get better or or change anything I don't know what comes up for you yeah, it's like, it's interesting, like I know we've like talked, we've mentioned this concept on other pods, um, but we've never delved fully into it.
Speaker 3And it's interesting, like I know we've like talked, we've mentioned this concept on other pods, but we've never delved fully into it. And it's like I'm thinking of you've mentioned this, right, we're in and I think I agreed, we're even sometimes someone like a client in a group or in a individual session, or maybe even in a couple of sessions I don't do couples work, but technical difficulties. Sorry.
Speaker 1I was working on a mic. I would never want to interrupt.
Speaker 5I couldn't tell if John maybe needed help.
Speaker 1No, I'm good. I'm good Working with my friend Mike over here. Mike Esposito DJ Got it. Okay, mike, sorry, shout out. I'm working with my friend Mike over here. Yeah, mike Esposito DJ. Got it. Okay, mike sorry, sorry Shout out.
Speaker 3I'm listening, I think like we've even talked about this where this is where I take difficulties, where, like someone will come on the scene and already be sort of espousing like I'm unlikely to get better or like I don't trust this. And you know, like there can be a difference in like not trusting and not wanting to get better. Even for me, like in my life, like not trusting that something's going to work versus a part of me really not wanting the change Right, and it's kind of an interesting no, there's a difference there, yeah.
Speaker 3But there are distinct things, yeah, healthy there are distinct things, yeah Healthy skepticism yes.
Speaker 1Totally, and that person can embody or myself can still embody, I'm willing to try, yeah.
Speaker 3Yes.
Speaker 1And see and try to really empty whatever you want to say. Empty my cup or have a beginner's mind about it, like try to empty some of those preconceived notions and still know that they're there, or I might be skeptical about this.
Speaker 1Yeah, you know, and I'll maybe leave those on the periphery as I engage, yeah which I think that can be a really wise-minded, healthy place to be to bring in some skepticism Totally, because I think that does lead you to think about things at times in a more critical way, though it can quickly move into just like naysaying things right, so that can sometimes be a like tough, what am I? Trying to say like line to toe. But skepticism doesn't always equal like somebody is not open.
Speaker 3Yeah, willing to getting better definitely but I was really interested in what you said earlier in the in the pre-show about, like you know, just even reflecting back sometimes what people say and then them having a reaction to that yes, well, yes, and it can be sometimes like that can be a signal to me that you know, in my doing a parts work lens, that there's a part or like, just you know, on some level, if we don't think of it as parts, on some level there may be and I have to hold some healthy skepticism there may be something in the system that does not want to mend yeah if you know, because, like it's, you know something that feels pretty straightforward, where someone will say something and you'll reflect it back almost verbatim yeah and they're like well, that's not really what I said.
Speaker 3I feel like it's important for me to pay attention to that and notice, like what just happened here, and sometimes then it becomes like I might need to kind of awaken this part that doesn't want to get better and talk to that, and that usually it can be kind of a delicate thing. I mean, it's a delicate thing when I even do it within myself of like, is there a part of me right now that's being pretty stubborn here?
Speaker 3and doesn't want something to mend, doesn't want something to be resolved, because there's something I'll lose there or something you know like. I think I've even said in sessions. You know like, does it feel like I'm not totally hearing you or that I might have a different goal now than you have? And sometimes in that moment the person will be able to say yes, and sometimes it's like that part that doesn't want to get better, is like clever and even more stubborn, and says no, we're on the same page.
Speaker 3And then I'll reflect the page and they'll say we're on different pages and it can be this like difficult cat and mouse thing, um like, for instance I'm thinking of even like disordered eating. It's very common for there to be at least a part that doesn't want to quote. Quote get better, depending on how you define getting better.
Speaker 1Yeah, I mean, I think that's something we would be doing a disservice to the people we work with if we didn't clearly define, or at least have them explore, what do you mean by better. Right, you want to get better, or you feel like you're never going to get better? Or I can't get better. It's like can we stop using better, Right? What does that mean? Because I think we need to have more data and details about that. Yeah, Because that's so. It's nondescriptive at all.
Speaker 3Right, and this is where, like defining goals at the beginning, and maybe that's true of like treatment, and that's true of like putting together a desk from ikea or something like let's define the goals here so that we're all aware of what we're aiming for, right and when you're in your own way toward that thing, even just reflecting that to someone can actually lift it.
Speaker 3You know, I mean, I have clients who, like their goal might be a little vague. You know it might be like I want more mental. You know it might be like I want more mental clarity you know or I want the interpersonal effectiveness you know, which like obviously the DBT clinical term, but it's a little vague, you know it's not. I really do love when people have goals that are like I want to go to grad school, like I don't know.
Speaker 3It's nice to have something concrete and notice them together, like what is getting in your way there. It can be so nice and sometimes I can help people like add to their goals in a more specific way, um, but yeah, like. And then noticing, like, reflecting, like where maybe your part of you is not wanting that thing you told me you did want. Yeah, and just putting that out there, I know for me, when I, when I noticed that in myself it's like you're going against your own goal here, it does help, not always, but it can help. You know and this will come up with josh and I a lot where it's like what do we, what's our goal here? Like to be right or to be to fight, to reconnect with each other in terms of our conflict yeah, yeah, yeah no, I, I, yeah, I, I want to.
Speaker 5Um, I feel like I want to elucidate, but I didn't have an immediate response. No, that's okay, no, I think yeah.
Speaker 3Yeah, and I get caught in that where it's like I kind of want to be, especially as a therapist within my relationship. I want to be the wisest and the rightest and the most righteous and sometimes reconnecting.
Speaker 1like in doing that that you have to let go of that and maybe there's part of me sometimes that doesn't want to yeah, and I think power a very powerful thing for me is coming back and we've talked about this so much in the podcast the values piece of it. Yeah, because at a certain point then, dropping the rope on maybe one way of moving the conversation about the better and it's like, well, maybe let's move into the space of let's assume then you're not going to get better, whatever that means for you.
Speaker 4Yeah.
Speaker 1How do you create meaning in your life? Knowing that? Yeah, so your definition of better, let's say that is unattainable for you. I'm not saying that's unattainable for you yeah but really putting the onus on them.
Speaker 1You're saying that you've said it multiple times, okay, then we know what we're dealing with. Then what's meaningful in your life, knowing you're not going to get better, whatever that is and it kind of puts more of the onus on them to. I mean, the hope would be that they get a little bit more creative and it's like that idea of creative hopelessness. So I'm not saying you're hopeless, it's once you become hopeless in the idea that I have to continually tell people I'm not going to get better Once that agenda, we've stopped that agenda because I'm not going to engage with you in that way anymore. That opens up your lens to being more creative. Okay, well then you're not going to get better. What's something meaningful you could do today? Then?
Speaker 1Yeah, that would enhance your, not betterness.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 1You know and work around that that doesn't always work. Right, yeah, you know and work around that that doesn't always work, but right, trying to again do that we're aligning, but also kind of saying I'm not going to continue this tug of war with you yeah okay, you're telling me you know you best, right? So let's just accept this is the reality of it. And then, how do we work within that reality?
Speaker 3yeah, people have a reaction to that too. I mean, well, there's almost like a harm reduction element to that. And I do think that can be pretty powerful.
Speaker 1You know like but it will also show you sometimes, and they'll tip their hand in the sense of is the secondary gain of this that somebody will continue to engage with me and do the tug of war with me?
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 1Because sometimes people want that and that's the secondary gain. They get the attention of like I'm not going to get better and people will give me all these ideas and I'm really good at shooting them down, and there's something about that that gives somebody something.
Speaker 4Yeah.
Speaker 1And once you kind of like almost throw them a curve ball and are like, okay, like I'm not going to really and almost align with them in that truth that they feel is the truth sometimes they don't that can be very telling what their reaction is sometimes to that, because they want to continue to engage in that way sometimes well, I mean, that really resonates for me, because I think, yeah, I think there is a secondary gain for me a lot in like almost like being a victim a little, or like I don't even know.
Speaker 3I'm trying to decide if that's a primary gain or a secondary gain, but it's like I I do think you, josh you, and I've talked about this a lot I will feel like if I'm hurting, if I'm not well, then I will be loved, and it's like there's a huge part of me that's like wants to be well in all the ways, and there is a part of me that I think struggles to let go, and it's not a super tenacious part, because I've seen other versions that are way more intense, but I'm like backing down on this.
Speaker 3But no, I really do think that I'll notice a secondary gain sometimes and like it's like if I don't present this issue as agonizing, no one will see me. Yeah, so it's like.
Speaker 1And you've brought that up before about not being seen.
Speaker 3Yeah, yeah yeah, and it's like, yes, I do want to get out of the agony like I do, and it's like another part of me doesn't, because there's like fear there, like something will be lost or something will be missing. If you just get out of it, if you feel better, a part here will be abandoned. I do think that and know that it's real and I do think I mean you know this for sure when I become aware of that, for me the awareness is pretty potent and I'll be able to either feel release in that or know the words to say to you or to someone else to find my way to resolution of the thing in front of me, the conversation, the argument, whatever it's like the awareness and is that because I'm a therapist or because I've done tons of therapy and they're both yeah or just like.
Speaker 3Is that part of like kind of my makeup as a person? It's maybe it's all of it, but because not everyone feels that way or gets to that like the awareness we sometimes need a little more than that. But yeah, it's interesting Like your point of like could being like the sickest patient in the room, like you gain from that, like I get to keep the hospital bed, I get to be, here I get.
Speaker 3I'm not expected to like stand on my own and that's scary in a real way. That can be so scary for someone. Yeah, and you kind of have to honor that fear well, first you have to identify it. Yeah, and honor it like. Where is it actually like when you picture getting better? Where is that actually kind of scary right? Where's the danger in that?
Speaker 1yeah well and therapy isn't. It doesn't work all the time right. So there's a lot of trial and error. There's a lot of like grinding.
Secondary Gains and Creative Hopelessness
Speaker 1You have to do with it and so it makes sense that there's a spectrum and there's people on the spectrum who are like, well, it could just be totally like I go and, no matter what they throw at me, I'm just not going to get better because I just I don't buy it or I don't believe in it and I'm just going to go through the motions, kind of like the idea of like I'm going to therapy but I'm not really like doing it, doing the work yeah.
Speaker 1And then there's probably people who have tried a lot of different things and they just haven't seen the results that they want and they've been more than willing to do it. But that could also feed a sense of like this just isn't working. It's not getting me where I want to go, and it's not. It might not be anything to do with. There could just be so many other circumstances or things that are involved that are getting them to where they want to or not getting them to where they want to be. That could feed their idea of like, not getting better.
Speaker 3Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1I don't know. Well yes, some people just go to therapy to check it off the box sometimes, and then when they get there they realize, oh my therapist is really like challenging me to do these. I don't know if I, and it's almost like well, okay, that's fair. Like there is a component of it where we need to educate you on what therapy is, and did you not know that, like we're gonna ask you to do some stuff that you're probably gonna be uncomfortable with?
Speaker 3yeah, but maybe not I don't know right, the sitting in the chair versus the like doing it.
Speaker 4Right.
Speaker 3And does the whole system want to be in the chair doing it?
Speaker 4Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3Yeah, the whole system's like okay with being in the chair, because you wouldn't be in the chair otherwise, like you said, you'd work with your feet but doing it is different, but you got to do it yeah.
Speaker 1You don't have to do it.
Speaker 2Well, but that's just it. You don't have to, you don't have to do it.
Speaker 3And that's sometimes, I think, what the part that doesn't want to get better even needs to know the person the client needs to know. Like you can choose willfulness.
Speaker 4Yeah.
Speaker 3You can dig your heels in. You can In DBT, right, it's like do nothing stay just as miserable, and it's a real option. In front of you, you're steering this ship and even in you, when I talked about this before, even then reflecting that sometimes to people they're kind of horrified by their own power. In that way, you know the reality of like. If you don't want to get better, you don't have to and we might have to sit there for a second.
Speaker 3Explore it. If you let us explore it, maybe today you need this to not get better and to like sit with me caring about you anyway and you caring about you anyway, yeah, which is an interesting kind of paradox, like you were saying, like could it be meaning? Could your life be meaningful and you have a good relationship with yourself?
Speaker 1and feel hopeless about your mental health or something or even just trying to get creative in terms of what's, and this is why the definition of better is so important, Because maybe it's the person might be thinking about their whole kind of self.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 1And it's like well, maybe we just need to focus on one aspect.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 1Of that. How could we make that aspect better?
Speaker 3Yeah, what are some?
Speaker 1tangible things we can make in that realm and maybe we'll move to a different realm and that'll be the next phase of therapy. But like let's you know, and you might get resistance to that too.
Speaker 4Right.
Speaker 1But I think it's like throwing everything at the wall, to kind of be like you know, okay, like you're telling me, you as a whole are just not going to be a better person. Well, what's one area we could work on here? Right, that could even be we talked about sleep in a previous episode. Maybe let's talk about your self-care routine. Could we make that better? Like? What does that look like? Paint me a picture. What would be useful there?
Speaker 3totally, and then sometimes there's a scaffolding. That happens there okay, sir. Yeah, no technical difficulties no, you know, it's like if sleep gets better, sometimes willingness changes or even the more meta thing of like, if you and the client really honor the part that doesn't want to get better, it can feel, seen and heard.
Speaker 4Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3And sometimes, over time, soften.
Speaker 1Yeah, you know, or move into grief work.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 1Of grieving the loss of a life. You.
Speaker 3Knew.
Speaker 1Knew or envisioned that better was right that never came to fruition.
Speaker 3And well, that brings into mind for me. Sorry, did I scratch?
Speaker 5No, oh yeah, but it's okay.
Speaker 1No, a lot of mic.
Speaker 3We got a lot of mics going on, mike I know, we got hot mics, I think about too, like when you say grief, like that sometimes there's a fantasy of better, that's like a true fantasy. That's not even humanoid. You know, like a better, that isn't possible.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 3Or, and probably not even actually what someone would want like pure bliss and perfection and whatever would want, like pure bliss and no imperfection and whatever. But yeah, like sometimes there's like do we have to let go of something like everyone as a human being has to let go of, which is being happy all the time? Yes you know being zen all the time which that's a lot of times.
Speaker 1Those are some of the things that people define better as.
Speaker 5Right.
Speaker 1And they're unrealistic. So it gets back to that, really trying to pick apart. What does that mean? Right and gently and compassionately, maybe, reminding people well, nobody's zen all the time, or nobody is happy all the time, or nobody has no anxiety, right or nobody, you know, doesn't feel all of these feelings. Now, granted, you're feeling them, maybe much more intensely than other people, and you're really struggling and it's very distressing and yeah for sure.
Speaker 1But that definition of better is a lot of times like these all or nothing type of things, or the bar is so high on everything in your life. I need to have this and I need to have that, and I need to make this money and I need to be married and I need to be this, and you know, and it's not that we can have reach a lot of our goals, but to have like that one, like that moment where it's all pieced together, very rare, yeah, if ever possible.
Speaker 2I mean, I even think about this with like do I?
Speaker 3I mean, what a question. This is like pumping up in real time, but it's like do I truly want to get better at my relationship to spending money, because I will confront this thing of like but then I won't get to?
Speaker 2have a lot of stuff you know, like I won't get the stuff, and I like stuff. Yeah, if I really heal this do I actually want that.
Speaker 3I think that's something I'm realizing. I really do face.
Speaker 1I mean I yeah, I a lot of times want to be more and dedicate my time more to like artistic endeavors, especially like drawing and painting yeah I want to get better at that and there's a part of me that's like I don't want to start really investing a lot of time in it for a lot of reasons, because it's hard yeah I know I'm going to be disappointed yeah in it.
Speaker 1I have a some of of a skill set, but it takes time and I don't want to have to confront that like I'm kind of lazy when it comes to that sort of stuff, sure you know, and it's like oh yeah, at least if I don't start, then I won't like have to, like you know, come down on myself when I look at the paints and the things and I'm like, oh, I'm so lazy like I have to.
Speaker 1I just want to avoid all of that, so it's like I don't so, yes, I do want to get better at that stuff and dedicate some time to it, and especially now that my kids are older, I'm thinking about it more where they don't need so so much attention. I can have more time for hobbies.
Speaker 4Right.
Speaker 1But it's like, ooh, getting better at is like that's time consuming it's like and I'm not gonna be good. I know I'm not gonna be good at it the way I want to be good at it, you know, and it's like yeah yeah, and it's like what is your real practice of that look like?
Speaker 3will I like it? Yeah?
Speaker 1yeah, and I know all the things.
Speaker 3I know that when I engage in the process of it, it's much more meaningful than the outcome I know that logically well same with spending spending I know the process of softening and not spending and seeing myself let go is so rich and important so hard and it's also like I want the stuff I want the stuff and a lot of it I'm realizing is like there's some just confronting of my like bare self, even with not spending, because it's like I like to spend a lot on clothes.
Speaker 3So it's like if I don't spend a lot on clothes, it's like I'm a little more confronted with just me, not literally unclothed, but it's like me, right me, without this identity of like I'm into fashion, I'm into it's more like I kind of just have to trust that, like whatever I'm wearing is okay and I'm good enough. You know, like there is a piece of it there. I mean this comes up in body image work constantly. You know it's like getting better means like sometimes I'm not going to look good and I really do.
Speaker 3And I think anyone struggling with body image which is like basically all of us knows like when hearing that like people tend to really like shudder at that Like I do want to look good always, and people even believing they really can look perfect and keep their body at some perfect standard always, and they're like I don't want to get better if it means letting that go, even if there's so much mental noise and chaos and pain. And I will say when clients of mine get to a place where it's like I know this isn't worth it and I'm ready to do something really hard. I'm just so impressed with them. It's like it's so impressive to let that go, to be willing to be like whole instead of perfect, messy and imperfect. And sometimes you're gonna look ugly frankly, all of us and sometimes you're gonna say something stupid, be stupid or be bad at something, be unskilled at something, be unwise in a certain moment, and there's like a wisdom to that. It is a hard thing to ask of yourself. So I kind of get it not wanting to get better.
Speaker 1So take your own advice and don't get better.
Speaker 3Well, I'm doing it with the spending.
Speaker 1But I mean you could say well, yeah, maybe I'm not going to. Being okay with not being better in that.
Speaker 3Whatever?
Speaker 1better means for you in that way, which means not spending as much from what you're saying.
Speaker 3Yeah, whatever. Well, actually speaking of creative like creative hopelessness which I always I may actually ask you to define that, because sometimes I get confused on that a little bit, with, like creative hopelessness, which I always. I may actually ask you to define that, because sometimes I get confused on that a little bit.
Speaker 1Yeah, so creative hopelessness. It is a confusing way to think about it. I think sometimes people think well one. Clinicians typically think it means that somebody is very creative in making themselves hopeless in the session. So, I think that's a common misconception of it. And I think that patients think when we use the term and this is why we gotta be cautious with it is that we're calling them hopeless.
Speaker 3Right.
Speaker 1And that's not what's happening. Creative hopelessness is the idea that you're giving up an agenda and typically the agenda is the controller the escape moves. So if you think of the person in the hole metaphor, from an act perspective where you're digging this. You have this shovel and you're digging in this hole. That's the only tool that you have, because you're digging in this hole, thinking that digging is the way to get out of a hole.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 1But digging only makes your hole deeper, deeper, yeah. And so what we try to do with that metaphor is we try to get people to what, not get out of the hole. We try for them to just drop the shovel. Yeah, and stop making that situation worse, and if you can let go of the shovel, then what you're doing is you're becoming hopeless in the idea that digging is the way out of the hole.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 1So that opens you up to creativity, right, it opens you up to thinking of new ways of relating to that hole that you're in, or there might be other possibilities. So the creative hopelessness is we're giving up an agenda that doesn't work for us. Quote unquote moves us towards a rich and meaningful life. Quote unquote values yeah.
Speaker 5Or that type of thing, yeah.
Speaker 1So we're becoming hopeless in things that don't work for me. So in your example and I'm not saying this is it, but it's like if you really took a firm stance on, I'm not going to spend as much money I've become hopeless in that. That's what fulfills me, because that's like a control, mover, escape, and it does right, like when we were consumers. When we we buy stuff, it does to a certain extent. But if I change my relationship to that, I might be able to open myself up to other possibilities, like maybe then I have to sit with a discomfort of yeah not having the latest fashion type of thing, or I?
Speaker 1obviously I don't know what I'm talking about when it comes to fashion no but you're right, like I don't have to get the fall look right and then the winter look and then so it's like it's opening me up to. Well then, how am I going to relate to myself by not having those? So we're becoming more creative and options and more resilient right?
Speaker 3I don't know, does that make sense? Yes, well, I'm curious what you think of this, because this is something I did feel like I took a creative approach after realizing that even the way I'm trying to solve the problem is a bit of digging meaning, like maybe the first way I'm digging this hole is spending my way out of a feeling of low self-worth potentially, or like feeling not good enough.
Speaker 3It's probably like a feeling not good enough and I don't want to like be too pathologizing of my interest in fashion, because I do genuinely think I'm into it. I'm like into aesthetics?
Speaker 1Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3That's probably why it's become an issue, because it is an organic interest of mine. Yeah, that, I do think, has some pretty innocent, just kind of creativity, creative expression basis.
Speaker 1It's 100% value, aligned and fair in so many ways.
Speaker 3Totally. That's my struggle with it, Like how do I really engage with it as a true value without trying to fill a void or dig a hole?
Speaker 1And the creative aspect could also, too, be do I have to spend in order to be into fashion? Yes, so it's like, if I give up, the agenda of spending is my. I'm not saying again, I'm not saying you're doing this, but spending is my only way of engaging with fashion, because that's just what I'm used to and that's what I've done. If we can just step back and notice that, like you're doing, then it's like well, maybe I don't need to spend to be into fashion, or I can be into fashion in different ways. Well, exactly.
Speaker 1That's what opens up the creativity aspect.
Speaker 3Well, so what I started to do because I had this like I started to kind of like notice myself more and I actually even started to notice that even when I do spend, I like hate everything I wear and I like hate the process of getting dressed because I feel like I'm like second guessing myself so much. So I'll spend, I'll have all this stuff, but it still doesn't feel like it's right and whatever. And then I would notice, when I wouldn't overthink, what I was wearing is often during the week when I'm just like seeing clients and I said to Josh, I always like what I wear the best when I don't think about it. So I was like I'm going to challenge myself to like the first instinct I have of what to put on. I put it on and I can't second guess it.
Speaker 1Nice.
Speaker 3And it's felt incredible. Yeah, it really does feel like life-changing to just be like this, this, this, you know, these socks. I got everything I need putting it on. Even if it sucks, I'm wearing it and it is not yet felt bad, it's felt only good.
Speaker 3I like that the only time I'm allowed to switch it with skim up this weekend, because the weather was kind of crazy this weekend. It was like are we in fall, are we in summer? I have no idea. So I did change something because I was afraid that I would be too cold. I changed from shorts to pants so that I second guess. But that was a weather-based choice, yeah. And then I like said I'm leaving the room, going downstairs waiting Josh was gonna pick me up. He had gotten me a starbucks. So I was going and I was like I'm not changing my outfit no matter what?
Speaker 3and we were going to the detroit jazz fest, which, like a music festival, would be a prime place where I would second guess my outfit too many times and I liked what I was wearing and I also wasn't obsessed with it.
Speaker 3I wasn't like thinking about it or even like feeling in my body like too aware of it, which was so liberating. Yeah, and I actually liked what I was wearing. So I was like this is going to be, this is going to change my life, like I'm. I'm going to just like whatever's in my closet, kind of, and the hard thing is like in in reality tiktok instagram. It's like they have become consumerist machines, like they are all about getting us to spend it's all just like spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, spend.
Speaker 3We think it's like we're engaging with our friends. It's like, no, you're on there. You don't even know why you're on there. You've been like pulled there by, like the man to spend money. So, yeah, I'm shown things constantly that I could buy, so like I can feel that tidal wave, but I do feel a little bit more aware of it and I can come back to the same intention and feel really good about the intention. I'm like I'm think I'm decentering this and I'm sort of just.
Speaker 3This actually came up in my therapy this is how this came out and talking about motherhood and like wanting to embrace this next phase and and part of motherhood that I'm interested in is the kind of de-centering of myself, not entirely, but in a lot of ways and like that, I'm interested in that and and I think that is something I and and starting to embrace it even before like having a child and even like fashion being like a mechanism for that. It's like can I like de-center clothing a little bit, still care, still be into it, but like this, this, this, I put it on. If I don't like the outfit, I spend a day wearing an outfit I don't like, and that's that's. There's interesting stuff there too, like of how do I relate to myself anyway? Like myself, anyway, feel in my mastery anyway, and yeah, I, I love it. It just felt so good, so maybe I'm not digging the hole at this moment with spending well, you gave up control over the outfits to gain more control.
Speaker 3Yes, yeah, to gain more like power internally, more feeling a wholeness within.
Speaker 1Yeah, and I guess by control, like you, were able to feel less, maybe out of control, by. I have to change it. I have to do this, I have to do that I have to you know.
Speaker 3That was making me feel worse.
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah so you gave that up and just kind of were like boom yeah.
Speaker 4I'm just going to do it.
Speaker 1Totally. Right, I'm going to let go.
Speaker 3And that's a leap of faith. Yeah.
Speaker 1That's hard to do that.
Speaker 4Yeah.
Speaker 1Because it doesn't come naturally to any of us when we everybody, myself included like grip to these things that we think are like important and working for us. And again, I'm not saying it's not important, but like we're so like fused with the idea, right, that it's like. This is the way I got to do it.
Speaker 3Yeah, and man, was it so liberating, Like shout out to my therapist. She had her shoulder to the wheel this week. Really helped me in so many ways, so so many insights, and then doing EMDR on them and really getting them in there, and it felt so good to think like wow, like let go a little bit and step into decentering yourself. And it's like I like my clothes more. I'm like I'm not even thinking about them as much. It was really, really great.
Speaker 1Liberating.
How Wise Is It: Gym Memberships
Speaker 3Liberating Dare. I say better, Better to use a judgment which we are using this whole episode, but sometimes it's helpful.
Speaker 4It is.
Speaker 3But yeah. So what do we think? Like someone struggling with not wanting to get better, or even, if you're confronted with, like a partner or a friend? Who doesn't want to get better.
Speaker 1Yeah, I think there's a part of it, that's, as we've mentioned, personal struggles with it. I think I hate using the word normal, but validating like that's a part of being human is there are parts of us that we get really stuck in and we don't feel like are going to get better or worth getting better, or some of the things we already talked to. So I think it's maybe having compassion for yourself, but also, like you mentioned, friends, family.
Speaker 4I think you know if we can sit in that a little bit and look at it and it's like, what could this?
Speaker 1if I ease up a little bit on the agenda of like I'm not going to get better, like or this isn't going to get better, maybe there's other lenses we could look through. Yeah, I don't know, maybe that would be, a starting place, or even if people are willing to say you know what is not getting better Give me, yeah, it's like paying attention to the part of you that doesn't want to get better, or the part of your friend, or whatever. Yeah, do I get anything.
Speaker 3Does my friend get anything from this? Yeah, family member. Yeah, be curious about it. Be compact, which is innately compassionate notice it and I would say, yeah, like you're saying, like stay with it for a beat, let it be there and see if you can can more about it, learn more about it, let it exist. And letting it exist doesn't mean you like completely resign to it. It's more like I wonder what else is here? Even if a part doesn't want to get better, what else could?
Speaker 1happen here. I think it could even be useful to just jot down, like if you're noticing yourself going to that place if myself included using that term like writing down what is better. Or you could do it mentally too, but for some reason I like to write things down sometimes like that, like, like, what do I mean by better in this moment?
Speaker 3Yes, because.
Speaker 1I think that can give me some distance from it If I actually wrote down something and looked at it and was like, well, that's completely unrealistic Right.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 1Like what am I, you know? So that would give me a pause too, if I actually like tried to define in my mind. If I'm in that moment, if I could take a pause and write down what do I actually mean when I say like I want to be better, or I want this situation to be better? Yeah because then it could give me a little bit of like okay yeah, let's rein this in a little.
Speaker 1Let's make it more grounded, yeah let's make it more grounded, or it could be. Oh, maybe better means you just want to be heard right now, or you just you feel alone right now, or you know like so it could give you some different avenues to maybe explore. If you kind of try to define it a little more, yes, I so second that.
Speaker 3It's like knowing, understanding even your own, like subconscious or conscious. And then sometimes even just that you realize like, oh wow, that doesn't make sense. The wise mind just rises up.
Speaker 4Yeah.
Speaker 3That doesn't make sense. Let me find what's more realistic more resonant and then you may even notice the willingness changes on its own, or you put a few steps toward it and you know willingly yeah, yeah. So a lot of noticing, a lot of noticing and compassion and accepting always yep, always, always, okay, so maybe we should move into our how is this it?
Speaker 1how is it our segment?
Speaker 3how is it to belong to a gym?
Speaker 2or health club to really belong to really have a community at your gym I mean honestly if I could find real community at the gym.
Speaker 3I would fucking belong to the gym, yeah, but then you just talk, you wouldn't work out.
Speaker 2I know I know.
Speaker 1Yeah, well, maybe everybody should be forthcoming here. Does anybody here have a gym membership? Maybe we should start there.
Speaker 3I mean, I have a long history of being on and off with gyms.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 3I'm currently off.
Speaker 1You're off, I'm off. I have not had one in a very long time.
Speaker 3Okay, and Josh.
Speaker 5I had very long time, okay, and, josh, I had one for a bit. I I've barely ever had one in my life. Yeah, I think I had one. Here's the circumstance where I had one. Yeah, I was living in an apartment. There's no workout room in the apartment. There's no workout facility in the apartment. Um, there's, there's winter where I live, it's chicago where I live, so you're saying it almost like a dr susan yeah, so.
Speaker 5So here's, here's the deal. I think if I have a workout room that's included in my home, I'm going to belong to a gym, because I have very basic needs. I basically need a place indoors to run.
Speaker 5You run on the treadmill Because I run on the treadmill, I run outside. If I'm living in Los Angeles, I'll run outside all year. That's great, and I'll kind of do floor exercises. I'll do push-ups, crunches, shops, shops, chops, chops. So I don't know, that's my routine. Some people are really into the machines and maybe you're going to deck your house out with the machines, but I think that could get super pricey. So if you're into the machines, you're probably going to want to belong to a gym.
Speaker 5I also think there's people like for me. I feel like running is like really a solo activity. Like if we're on a family vacation and my aunt will be like let's go on a run together. I'll like cringe, I'll be like like that's going to be my like 30 minutes to like listen to music and like unwind and like not have to talk to anyone.
Speaker 5So I don't know. I'm definitely not going to a gym for the social experience. That said, when I did belong to a gym, it was kind of fun. It's like people watching and you're exercising. I feel like you might feel a little more motivated because people are kind of watching you. I guess I'm pretty motivated to do it. I'm pretty self-motivated to do it. I like to do it mostly. Sometimes I'm like oh, it sounds exhausting. But yeah yeah, I guess I'm listing reasons why one would want to belong to one or not.
Speaker 1I think it's. I mean, let's be clear, Nobody's knocking health physical health or exercise or anything. I think it definitely can be wise to have a membership and I think there's, depending on the person, it can be accessible in so many different ways. I mean, YouTube has opened up so many different ways of doing exercise. Instructional videos Granted, not all of those are probably the most useful.
Speaker 3So you got to be careful with that. What about FDA approved?
Speaker 1But I think there are real barriers for people to having a gym membership. Certainly cost, right. Also, we already talked about in this episode, but like body image and and things, like that which can get in the way.
Speaker 3So or you could live in like a gym desert, yeah, yeah or you could be going to the gym too much and your relationship with the gym is like obsessive yeah, a little bit.
Speaker 4So I mean I deal with that all the time, right in my work um I always wanted to, I think.
Speaker 1I don't think I really wanted to belong to a gym to belong, to belong, to truly belong to a gym. I think I always wanted to like be at like a racket club.
Speaker 1I think I wanted to be a place, that, where I could play tennis with people oh yeah and have a like a pool oh, like, I don't want to do the weight thing like sweater tied around yeah, all white all the time yeah yeah so I think in my mind I I don't want to do the gym for sure, because I don't want to be like lifting weights or anything like that sure but I wanted, like a membership, to like a club where I could play like tennis or something yeah, I would love that and those tend to be the most pricey oh, hands down, yeah, yeah which is just too bad, because I I agree.
Speaker 3I think, oh, like pickleball, josh and I belong to a pickleball place. It's great, love pickleball, it was great. But also like the membership literally only paid for, like priority access to booking the courts, like it didn't pay for the courts right so you had to like pay every time you rent, so it was like it was a racket yeah aptly named.
Speaker 3Yeah. So yeah, like we loved it, yeah and then we were in a pickle then we were in a real pickle. Yeah, there's a pickleball place in west bloomfield, where josh's mom lives, called Pickle Rage. Pickle Rage I like that.
Speaker 3I feel like we're going to have to check it out at some point. But yeah, so like you know, it's funny. Like I agree, I think that would be my ideal, some kind of like club situation. I belong to so many different kinds of gyms and I'd like so many eras where I'm like I'm a gym person, this is what I do, and like that never lasts for me, because leaving the house, driving to and from the gym, then coming back and showering, it's like a four hour endeavor and I was really into classes for a while, so like that helped. You know, belonging to gyms with classes was great.
Speaker 1Yeah, well, I think that there's a lot of wisdom there because you can mix it up, you can do a lot of different things. It keeps it fresh. There's a professional leading you exactly and there is a social element to those social element there's cool like pumped up music, especially as a single person it was great josh's point it's motivating to be around other people yeah that are doing it with you yeah but yeah, it would.
Speaker 3It would take up a lot of time when you work a full time. I was working, you know, out of the house five days a week. You know, pre covid, yeah, it was like going to the gym right after work. You change there like, yeah, it definitely was like. Think about it now. I'm like, wow, how did I have the energy for that? I met my friend. I was telling Josh this, actually, this just came up. I met up with my friend, megan Shout out to Megan Hovious and we would meet on Tuesday nights and do a HIIT class and it was so fun to work out with my friend. That was great. And we both belonged to all of the Chicago Athletic Clubs. I got this like secret membership because I belong to one of them and then you know, sometimes when you try to quit a gym, they like sweeten the deal to keep you.
Speaker 1So I think I belong to like lakeview athletic yeah, you're talking about like lpac and all those that, those types of yeah, so I belong to the lakeview one and I, of course, I like went in to try to quit and they're like, okay, you can quit, but what if you let me sweeten the deal? What?
Speaker 3if we give you access to all of our clubs and you could belong to all and you could, then you would truly belong and I said, okay, I'll do it if I can belong to all the clubs and have access to all the class times and all the different classes all over the city I'm doing it and I remember the next day I told my co-worker that they really rolled out the red carpet for you well, but my co-worker framed it as she's like they got you.
Speaker 3She's like they did exactly. They like tricked you into just keeping your exact same. She's like what's it to them if you're at all the clubs? And I was like you're right, they got me and I was like but I am happy about having access to all the clubs and I will say I did use them. I went to West Loop. I was like carting myself around the city, which then that became unsustainable, but there wasn't a lure to like being able to go to any of them. Some of them do have pools.
Speaker 1Right yeah.
Speaker 3Some of them have beautiful fancy saunas that I would go in. I had a period where I thought sa was like the answer to life, which is crazy.
Speaker 2I would go in the sauna and read a book about personal finance.
Speaker 1You're like this is my self-improvement era I am working out.
Speaker 2Yeah, I mean, and the book would get all warped in the sauna. I mean, what do you all?
Speaker 1think like what's the and again? We're not knocking people who go to gyms by any means Like absolutely, we've been a part of gyms and maybe it's just not wise for us now. What would make it a wise choice? Like how often would you have to go a week for it to really truly do? You think I'm just curious, like what in your mind. If I went at least this much, okay, it would be twice yeah.
Speaker 3That's fair. Yeah, I was going to say two to three times, bare minimum twice yeah.
Speaker 5Three, probably better One's bad. Don't do that.
Speaker 3Once a week. It's like, let's just join a Pilates, like do the fancy thing because it'll be the same price. Well, no, it'll be more. Or supplemented at home doing something at home, supplemented at home. Now, if it's a gym like planet fitness, which I actually technically do, actually I do still belong there.
Speaker 5I forgot members since 2004 we also have a paramount plus account. We probably need to cancel.
Speaker 2Oh my god I need to get that there you go.
Speaker 1How wise is it To have too many subscriptions?
Speaker 3Yeah Well, because Planet Fitness for a while Was just 10 bucks a month.
Speaker 2It's like, what's 10 bucks, what's 10?
Speaker 1bucks, it's nothing.
Speaker 3And I would go. Sometimes I would go With my other friend Because she belonged to it too, and we would go and we basically just talked.
Speaker 1Do you think there's that's part of their Like motto is like we want we're dirt cheap, so people will forget us. People will simply donate the fee and we'll just, it'll just keep coming out of their debit.
Speaker 3I've probably been donating for three years, yeah.
Speaker 2Yeah, it's a genius, model.
Speaker 5It's a model, cancel that subscription.
Speaker 2I know, I know. But then there's a part of me that's like oh, maybe I'll go 120 bucks a year you could get one dress. Yeah, from Zara, sure, I mean yeah, it's like-.
Speaker 1Well played, Josh, on going into the soft target there.
Speaker 5Do they have a sauna? Yeah, no they don't, so you can't even do any sauning.
Speaker 2No, but here's what they have.
Speaker 3that really got me. Do you mean reading and sauning? This is what made me join my mom. Has my mom secretly had the like black card membership for the regular membership price because they just like goofed her membership?
Speaker 4Oh, okay.
Speaker 3And if the black card membership you can bring guests for free. So she would sometimes bring me for free if I was like staying at the house, so that's like two memberships Totally For 20 bucks a month.
Speaker 2Their black card membership is 20 bucks a month. Their blackguard membership is 20 bucks a month. Is that incredible? And you also can sit in that massage chair thing they have.
Speaker 3It's a chair, it's not a person chair, so we would go to her. Um planet fitness and they created this zone. Those those who've been to planet fitness know about this zone. It's called the 30 minute zone and it's this back area where you do these like intervals. So there's a timer. It's like green light for 30 seconds, red light for 10 seconds and it so it's. You can time yourself and you can be on a machine. You know 30 seconds. Then you get off it and you do some kind of cardio in the middle section and then you go to another machine 30 seconds, go to the middle cardio and you're doing your own hit routine.
Speaker 2It's like you're your own personal trainer for 10 bucks a month great I mean I the amount to which I thought this would absolutely change my life. I was like I'm going to live in this section and then I did it for a while. My mom and I would go, and that was nice and we would scream at each other over our headphones, like trying to talk you when you have your headphones in and you like are speaking at an insane volume.
Speaker 3So we would do that. My friend Kathleen and I did it for a bit during COVID, which COVID was a nightmare plan of fitness, because it's like no one was really following the protocol. It's kind of like crazy in there. Yeah.
Speaker 2And people would spray the machines with like 30 pounds of the spray. They and people would spray the machines with like 30 pounds of the spray they were soaked or they spraying you. Yes, that would happen too.
Speaker 3It's like I have so much of this cleaning solution in my mouth. Yeah, it was crazy, yeah, and they would get mad at us because we'd go on the machines next to each other. You're not supposed to go next to each other, so we'd get yelled at, but we couldn't hear each other over our masks yeah, I mean, and the music were blaring and the music is blaring in our ears.
Speaker 2It was nuts, but I mean honestly. There was a social element that was fun.
Speaker 3I look back on those memories fondly, but I don't think much working out was really happening. Yeah, it was all just like treacherous um, but yeah. So then it's like I'm technically still a member there, but I never go. I joined la fitness over here.
Speaker 3I went zero times I went, literally, I joined oh, actually one time I went to a class one time and I didn't care for it. So then try to then I was like maybe I'll go to the gym part and then, like I walked in and left because I was like I can't do this, I really can't just like go on a machine. I don't know what I'm doing. I don't you know. Everyone else knows what they're doing in every gym.
Speaker 3It feels like that's the truth and so I just left, and then I was like I gotta quit this membership, and I did. They actually made it pretty easy, and that's my story.
Speaker 2Now I do YouTube videos at home and I donate to Planet Fitness, you donate it's like I donate to NPR, I donate to Planet Fitness yeah, exactly, I make all these donations, charitable donations.
Speaker 1I just think it. Yeah, I'm not gonna put a firm stop on never being a part of a gym. Yeah, I just feel like I can get some of the exercise that I like doing not gym based and I don't like weights, that's just not really my thing, I don't really like it.
Speaker 4Yeah.
Speaker 1Like I like jumping rope for cardio stuff. Yeah, pushups.
Speaker 4Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1Walking Like I don't do much.
Speaker 4Right.
Speaker 1But like I don't need a gym membership for that, right, would it be great to have access to a pool sometimes and like get a swim in, of course.
Speaker 3Yeah, I love yoga. I would love a gym with good yoga classes that happen regularly.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 3That's really close to my house. I was hoping that would be Planet Fitness or LA Fitness, but they don't want to be over that often.
Speaker 1The proximity also plays into how wise is it? Because if it's not close enough, you're probably not going to go Not you, but just anyone. If it's too much of a hassle, if you got to take public trans or get in your car, yeah. And then if your class is that like the one you like, is that a weird time?
Speaker 3yeah, they don't offer it a lot like that can also be difficult yeah, and then there's these boutique fitness centers like a barry's boot camp or orange theory fitness people love this I have been interested to try like a personal trainer have. Have you ever been?
Speaker 1interested in that. Have you ever done that?
Speaker 3My mom had one for a while and she would sometimes let me like draft off it and go in and just do all the things she did Like I almost want to be a little bit of like punished a little and like tell me how out of shape I am right now. Like just do an assessment because I really want to hear Just skewer me, yeah, kind of skewer me, yeah and and like what?
Speaker 1could we like somebody who's really gonna like be honest with me and like, okay, what's your, what are your goals? Here's what we got to do? And, yeah, kind of motivate me in that way yeah, I've never done it.
Speaker 3I would love that, but a good one like that's also like they're not shaming no, not shaming, but like but they're kind of like they kind of give you the straight.
Speaker 1They're a little bit of a straight shooter and be like well if this is your goal, then this is we got to work at it and this is what we're gonna do. Yeah, totally. I would like that. Don't give me the fluff piece.
Speaker 3Yeah I mean, that's almost, I feel like what I was like trying to pretend to do with classes at times, because sometimes you'll go to a class and there's really not that many people in there so like it's almost like I have a personal trainer but, I've been in classes. I remember I had a class once where the guy like seemed to think I was in better shape than I was and he was like you. I know you can go faster and I was like I definitely can't.
Speaker 2And I'm like he's like pushing you to hurt yourself yeah, I was kind of like I'm like no, thank you, yeah, like no yeah, like no yeah, but.
Speaker 1Yeah, I wouldn't want it to go in that direction, right.
Speaker 3Yeah, sometimes they're a little like and I would want one that's gentle. I mean I had a. They require you to do private Pilates at this one Pilates studio before you can do the group classes, so I had to do two privates.
Speaker 1So that, like, your form and stuff is correct or like, yeah, honestly, I think it's probably like a sales tactic.
Speaker 3Well, sure, but that's what they argued is for your form, and it did help with my form because she showed me all these ways in which I was like crooked, oh well, and I was honestly like that's useful man. I wish I had this all the time. It was like incredible.
Speaker 1Yeah, just the one-on-one attention is also really nice, you know yeah, totally well, I can imagine I'm speaking as if I know what it's like.
Speaker 3Yeah, so it's like I guess I've done it like four times, like you know, because I had to for this one thing, and then I drafted off my mom's and it was nice. I remember thinking like I definitely had a better workout than I went on my own and people do it for their weddings. I didn't do it for my wedding, but people do.
Speaker 1Yeah, it sounds so nice maybe it's wise maybe it's really wise revisit at least yeah, options right and maybe to cancel planet fitness oh my god, yeah, I should get on that probably this week make a note.
Speaker 3Yeah, mental note but I know I'm gonna feel hesitant, as if, like, I'm gonna really get going back. I think there is one close by. You love to spend.
Speaker 5It makes you feel safe. I know, if you're not spending, you're not worthy.
Speaker 3If I don't donate to Planet Fitness, how will it stay afloat?
Speaker 5That's a good point. They are resting on your contributions. Yes, True.
Speaker 2I know.
Speaker 1That $10.
Speaker 3But they can rest on everyone else, who probably doesn't even remember that they still donate.
Speaker 1Like you.
Speaker 2Yeah, like me.
Speaker 5But now that we're putting this out on the pot, I'm sure so many people are going to cancel their plan. They're going to be like wait a second, I need to look at all my subscriptions, including my gym membership, ones that have yeah, I'll quit, I'm going to quit.
Speaker 2I could always rejoin if I have to you can always rejoin yeah, okay, you're right.
Speaker 3You guys are right, so it's wise for me to quit. I think it is wise to have a gym membership if you like, yeah, classes if you like, weights, if you like getting out of the house that's part of it too.
Speaker 1Getting out of the house is great yeah, I think it's wise for me to maybe look into a personal trainer, but yeah, commit to it.
Speaker 3Yeah, what if you did it once a week?
Speaker 1well, I don't think the personal trainer would want to do that probably oh, some of them do really yeah see I'm already going in with no knowledge and thinking you don't want to get better
Speaker 4I don't want to get better.
Speaker 1I don't want to get healthier physically yeah I don't want to get stronger. Yeah, I don't want to be winded yeah, I mean, I don't either but but see, in my mind I'm already thinking uh, this will probably be like a three-day commitment.
Speaker 3Yeah, you know but man, it's like maybe when I, maybe not when my therapist goes on maternity leave. Maybe I would do that for a little bit, because it's less than therapy, cheaper than therapy.
Speaker 1Well, a personal trainer.
Speaker 3Yeah, for me.
Speaker 1Or about the same. I've never priced out any of it, I've never looked into any. It could be hundreds of dollars.
Speaker 2If a personal trainer is charging what my therapist is charging, I won't be going. No, no, thanks, well yeah, yeah, right in.
Speaker 3Let us know what you all think.
Speaker 1Yeah, write in Let us know what you all think. Yeah, especially people that are paying for their gym membership and using it.
Speaker 3Right Even if it's an expensive one Let us know you might think it's totally worth it, and I would believe that.
Speaker 1And there's probably tons of stuff at the gym that I'm not even aware of exists.
Speaker 3I mean there's some families that spend their whole Saturday at the gym the whole family, yeah.
Speaker 2And there's rock climbing.
Speaker 1Yeah, let us not forget, some people are really into that rock climbing. You can get lunch at some gyms, smoothie, you can get smoothie. Planet smoothie, planet smoothie. Are you a member there as well? Are you a card carrying member? Oh, kelly belongs everywhere, josh, she belongs do you belong?
Speaker 5do you belong to planet hollywood as well?
Speaker 2oh man planet hollywood is planet smoothie a place I think you just made it up smoothie king, smoothie king. There's not planet smoothie planet king, that's incredible.
Speaker 1Planet smoothie oh my god, we're gonna be brought to you by planet smoothie pretty soon.
Speaker 2Oh, my god sponsor. Okay, thank you so much everyone. This was fun thanks for listening a solo episode john and I have had a lot of guests, so it's been nice to just yeah, it feels like family and it feels like just getting back to the family.
Speaker 5This is my family it feels like family you guys are my blood relatives this is my wife and my husband don't mess with my family yeah, we belong we belong we do belong okay.
Speaker 3well, if you want to reach me or find me, ask questions, work with me, anything like that, you can reach me at kksychotherapycom john, you can always write to me.
Speaker 1Uh, let us know how we're doing questions. How wise is it? Questions of questions. Comments on gym memberships at buttsjonathan at gmailcom. I guess I'll plug Anatomy of a Fall. I haven't finished it yet but I'm going to plug it because you all said it was great and I can't wait to talk about it next week. It's great.
Speaker 5It's great Shout out, plugged by all three, all three. Yeah, and Joshy, if you need to reach me, you can reach me at joshbayerfilmscom. I kind of wish I had a net like Ian Finkelstein who we just saw at Jazz Fest, because he got to shout out in the middle of his set Ian Fink net. And everyone laughed and I was like wow, that is. And I want to ask him this is there an Ian Fink com or did he just decide net would?
Speaker 2be a really fun thing to say at shows.
Speaker 5Anyway, plug in Ian Finkelstein. He doesn't do our music like Blanket Forts who does, but they're both my friends. They're both very talented musicians.
Speaker 3Okay, yes, thank you to Blanket Forts and to Ian.
Speaker 5Thanks, see everybody next week.
Speaker 2See you next week.
Speaker 3Thank, thanks. Okay, everybody, next week. See you next week. Thank you. The wise mind happy hour podcast is for entertainment purposes only, not to be treated as medical advice. If you are struggling with your mental health, please seek medical attention or counseling.