The Wise Mind Happy Hour
Two therapists musing about the idea of an inner wise mind and how to connect with this psychic space in different contexts.
The Wise Mind Happy Hour
wise up with yr SHADOW SELF (feat. Lori Tolan LCPC)
Are you afraid of your own shadow? You think I'm joking...but we all have "shadow parts" of our selves that we disavow. What if we fully embraced these parts (and in essence, our SHADOW?)
Lori Tolan LCPC joins us to discuss!
- music by blanket forts -
Okay, well, welcome to the Wise Mind Happy Hour. I'm Kelly.
Speaker 2:And I'm John. Hello everyone.
Speaker 1:Welcome, josh. If I sit like this, can you still hear me? Yeah, okay, I'm going to do that. I'm going to sit up normal.
Speaker 2:And welcome Josh. We just welcomed him in and welcome Our producer.
Speaker 3:Yes, Telling everyone how to sit.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Definitely.
Speaker 1:U producer telling everyone how to sit?
Speaker 3:yeah, definitely upright. Yeah, upright, somewhere near the mic. I have to lean over into my mic because it's not propped up on enough books.
Speaker 1:It looks like you're like drinking soup.
Speaker 3:Yeah, face to bowl well, that's how I drink my soup, but you actually grab a few more books but you have good posture.
Speaker 1:I don't, I never do I do when I think about it, and then when I don't think about it, I'm like hunched back, like to the point when I have like physical pain.
Speaker 2:When I think about it, I actually think I have worse posture, because then I'm like, yeah, that seems like a lot of work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, sometimes I have really good posture. Looks fucking weird.
Speaker 2:Like too rigid.
Speaker 1:It's a little like I don't know yeah.
Speaker 2:I try to have it when I'm walking more. Yeah, that doesn't work.
Speaker 1:Right, I know, I don't know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I try to have it when I'm walking more.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that doesn't work Right. I know it's kind of like I have back pain if I don't have good posture. So then it's like I might as well try. Yeah, yeah, feel bad for me. I have many woes, I'm terrible for you. What have you been up to lately?
Speaker 2:For some reason it feels like it's been because we're recording on a yeah on a saturday. Yeah, we're doing a saturday recording. We also have a guest who's waiting.
Speaker 1:Yes, huge reveal saturday recording, as we said, until we're done with the intro. But yeah, we normally do tuesday nights, so it has been over a week which is a crazy night.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, they get wild. What have you? What's going on with you lately?
Speaker 1:not too well, actually, I should say I always say not too much. Well, actually, I should say I always say not too much. But josh and I were in new york last weekend, which was very whoa yeah, we went to visit his sister who just moved there. Shout out to alex who was a guest on the pod, friend of the pod, um she, that's right yeah, she moved she moved. Yes, so we visited her and then my friend leah, who was at our wedding. She lives there and they live like two blocks apart.
Speaker 2:Wow, which is so cool. How is Alex settling in?
Speaker 1:I think, okay, she's getting used to it she misses us.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we miss her, but she's overall very happy. Yeah, thriving.
Speaker 1:I mean, it's so cool there, josh, and I josh said to me he goes, I'm scared to like it. Like because like it is a nice lifestyle in some ways in new york very romantic yeah, it's very romantic. It's like my friend has a baby there too. It's kind of cool to see someone like handle a baby yeah, in the city there's a baby there yeah, there's a baby in new york so I like that element yeah that's hilarious yeah, um, but it was like seeing seeing a baby like tooling around new york was kind of fun, um, yeah, so we liked it.
Speaker 1:Like we went one night it was like, oh, let's get drinks. Before dinner we went two blocks to like the coolest cocktail bar I've ever been to, you know, like this French place, with really good drinks. They had like a shishito pepper martini.
Speaker 4:Oh.
Speaker 1:And it was like her neighborhood in the Upper East Side is like all ages. It's like people in their 70s, teenagers with their parents. Like people are like. It's so everybody goes out in new york, so it's like so lively I was like man. It's like we have great places in chicago, but it's not like two blocks away, you know, and I was like, do we need to move to new york or do we need to just like, live in the west loo?
Speaker 4:what do we do we?
Speaker 3:need to live here because we're very happy we are very happy remember yeah, and visiting new york is so fun and visiting is so fun and we'll be doing that a lot down, yeah because, yeah, it was so fun yeah, we need to calm down now.
Speaker 1:Enjoy our quiet weekend in chicago yeah, but I think this was all to the point of, like, I think alex will love it.
Speaker 2:You know, it's so great yeah, I mean I think I've mentioned this before like there's always a six hour period in anywhere I go in the trip where I'm like we're moving here I'm living I'm selling like we're going yeah so that you do need that time to come down from it and like back to reality.
Speaker 1:So I totally get that I know because I think the actual experience of living in new york can be pretty tough like sure watching someone carry a stroller up the subway yeah it's like harrowing or leah had because they were going to take, they had to go out to long island for a birthday and they took the train there and a car back and they had to bring the car seat right because a bag the size of her entire body and she is pregnant so has her entire body on her back like like a tarp bag with the car seat and I was like she's just like.
Speaker 1:See, I was like, wow, you gotta carry all that shit yep if you live in new york, I was like, and I like I'm such a wimp, I like hate carrying anything. So yeah, it's a different lifestyle, but it is. It is like romantic, like you said.
Speaker 2:That's cool.
Speaker 3:You get to carry stuff on your back. Yeah, there's a baby. I think I'm four and oh, also with the babies.
Speaker 1:Yeah, babies.
Speaker 3:Well, they let your four and oh too, but. But I worry more about being a scary old man. Yeah, but I worry more about being a scary old man.
Speaker 1:Yeah, babies, love Josh and Josh, you haven't met John's kids yet. They're not babies, or our guest's kids.
Speaker 2:That's true, drive it. They're my babies, but they're not babies yeah.
Speaker 1:That's right. Oh my God.
Speaker 3:Gotta meet them, our guest is telling us that I'm wrong about them.
Speaker 2:Gotta meet them Now.
Speaker 1:I'm remembering guests. That's right, but he has to remeet them at this age, and so do I. Yeah, but yeah. You are 4-0 with the babies, you're killing it.
Speaker 3:She ran up to me in the streets.
Speaker 1:Yeah, she literally ran up to Josh with her arms out. I levitated off the ground when that happened.
Speaker 3:It was so weird. But then you said you had kind of coached her to do that.
Speaker 1:No, I didn't Literally Leah said go find Josh oh wow.
Speaker 3:And she just looked for you and then did that on her own, like walk up to you with her arms open, and she liked my friend Henry too, shout out, henry yeah, shout out, henry, he made funny faces yeah, she really liked Henry Moskowitz so it was fun.
Speaker 1:It was a nice weekend, um, but yeah, other than that, just work, yeah working nine to five working nine to working like eight to seven more like there, you go longer than long hours. Weird breaks in the middle, yeah. But what about you? What's new with you? Uh?
Speaker 2:not much. I went to the cubs game today today yeah, wow, they lost, which is fine for me. That helps the brewers, but uh but it was a tight game. Yeah, my father-in-law's in town and took us to the game, so it was fun. Yeah, it was a fun time yeah, it was great there were a lot of runs like baseball's boring to me totally, unless there's like action yeah um, we have this like sports trivia game, like weird sports trivia. That was like how many minutes of actual action are in a baseball game?
Speaker 2:guess how many there are wait, let me guess how long on average a typical game's like three hours, let's say three and a half hours maybe 45 minutes 18 minutes.
Speaker 1:Oh, I mean that's the most vindicating number. Yeah, there could be, because, like I find it, so Isn't that validating?
Speaker 2:to be like, yeah, no wait, it is a boring sport, oh yeah this is a joke. And I know we've talked about it before, but going to the games always, you know it's pretty fun.
Speaker 4:And there's a lot of good people watching there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we did that today. It was a beautiful day after it rained this morning.
Speaker 1:I know it did turn out to be a beautiful day.
Speaker 2:Really nice day, so we did that.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah.
Speaker 2:And then we're going to the Lakeview uh arts festival tomorrow.
Speaker 1:Oh, just different artists.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they have like different booths and stuff.
Speaker 1:So we're just going to like tool around there Kind of walk around. Yeah, oh fun.
Speaker 2:But other than that nothing much not Nothing, much.
Speaker 1:Not much we were talking about, but football season started, so that's been fun. Oh, how did I not even know that?
Speaker 3:Probably because the Bears are terrible, just not thinking about it.
Speaker 2:Not caring about sports, not caring about sports, but usually it's like in the air you know yeah.
Speaker 1:Or it's in the next door apartment.
Speaker 2:Oh, sports fans, yeah Totally.
Speaker 1:But there must not have been any big games yet, or have there been?
Speaker 2:Well, there have been, but if you're not paying attention to it, it doesn't really matter.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But I'm more curious about pop culture events.
Speaker 1:I know, okay, so I'm actually not, but that was a nice segue wasn't it.
Speaker 3:It's a good transition. Wasn't that a good transition? Yeah?
Speaker 1:Really effective. Wasn't that a good transition? Really effective, yeah, thank you. Our guest today, who we will talk about the actual topic with what we will also talk about pop culture with, is our good friend and former co-worker and colleague forever and ever, laurie tolan lcsw yes, lcpc, another lcpc in the house of you are too, of course.
Speaker 4:Of course.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the pod. Thanks for having me guys. Oh my gosh, I still remember when you passed your exam.
Speaker 4:You guys decorated my desk. Yeah, it was so nice.
Speaker 2:It was great.
Speaker 4:Wait.
Speaker 1:I was there or you had already gotten it. When I got there, you were there. I was there. Yeah, because you was there. Yeah, because you decorated my desk for mine, right, yeah, yes, because I remember our boss was like gonna keep these decorations up forever, I guess wasn't there.
Speaker 2:Am I remembering this incorrectly? Wasn't, so you passed and then wasn't there, like another person somewhere in the building who, like took a test for licensure, like either that same week, and like felt terrible because they didn't pass it or something like that.
Speaker 1:No, you don't remember that, but I feel anyone who's I feel like people were like well, we might want to like quiet it down.
Speaker 2:John, I was like nope wrong. I don't know that person. I'm gonna celebrate laurie.
Speaker 4:Oh my god thanks, but also I actually appreciate that you guys kept that from me, because I didn't know that and I would have felt like bad celebrating oh, I wouldn't have and I didn't.
Speaker 2:I shouldn't feel bad, so no, you shouldn't sell it.
Speaker 4:You should always celebrate yourself, me at that time totally would have felt you at that time.
Speaker 2:Yes, me at that time didn't feel bad and we continued to celebrate and I was like who cares if that person failed, like I mean I, that sucks for them not to be, but I, I was like I don't know them, but like you, know this has nothing to do with me celebrating you, it's separate. Yes, so you're an LCPC, I'm an LCPC. Tell us just a little bit about your work and who you work with.
Speaker 4:So it's taken a different course from where we all started. But I'm very relational and psychodynamic in my work and I'm very into parts work and somatic informed therapy and trauma informed therapy. So that's kind of where I'm at now, I work with young adults, adults, and I work with couples now, too, couples work, I do.
Speaker 2:Wow, I love that.
Speaker 4:That's great Do you work, you don't but do you work with them?
Speaker 1:One area I've never really tried, not in a real way.
Speaker 4:Yeah, area I've never really treaded, not in a real way. Yeah, I was kind of scared for a while. If I'm being honest, it's scary, but then I've seen enough now where I'm like okay, I know what I'm doing, okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:So it's good and it's a lot of process work, which is what I like In the moment.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, that's true, like the relational piece that's live. Yes, totally. I remember when we were like very early in our careers Mia, who has been on the pod at the time, this was maybe during her internship even she said like she had done a little couples work and she was like I'm not good enough at it yet to not just side with the woman.
Speaker 2:That's great.
Speaker 4:That's so honest, I appreciate that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's so funny.
Speaker 2:I could totally yeah, yeah, yeah well, and yeah, because I think you're when you were working with us, your main focus was young adults, right at that time young adults, more young adults.
Speaker 4:But it was a lot of executive functioning with the cbt and dbt stuff. So I don't really do that much anymore. I have to. I mean, I always have to bring in CBT and DBT in some capacity. I think, it applies to everyone. At times, yeah, but yeah, it's not my main, not my main.
Speaker 1:It's not really my main anymore either.
Speaker 4:Yeah, but I do use it yeah.
Speaker 1:I use it a lot and I use the lingo a lot, the concepts a lot, but the mean thrust I think it would be more parts work. Yeah, relational EMDR even starting to be a little bit, but that's so exciting. Yeah, well, maybe with our topic even this will come into it, like how it shows up in couples work.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it shows up in everything. So yeah, so yeah, definitely there, though.
Speaker 2:But we were not. We're not getting there yet we have we have to have some sort of pop yeah Culture or something or other.
Speaker 1:So we were like really digging for this. And then Lori brought in a piece. Do you want to tell the audience?
Speaker 4:Sure, but like I want to start by saying I actually feel honored that I'm the first pop culture segue, because that's all we would talk about at work. No, nina Dobrev and Sean White broke off their engagement, wow so.
Speaker 1:Nina Dobrev.
Speaker 2:Thank you for pointing to me, because obviously my finger's always on the pulse of this Obviously Now. I know who Sean White is, who is an Olympic or was?
Speaker 3:an.
Speaker 2:Olympic snowboarder? Yeah, and I'm sorry she is who. Yeah, she's from Vampire Diaries. Is she an actress?
Speaker 1:She's an actress. Has she been in other stuff? She was in like Perks of being a Wallflower, oh, okay.
Speaker 2:And, I'm sorry, her name is Nina Dobrev.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think she's Bulgarian or something like that. Oh, I think she's Bulgarian or something like that, I don't know. I was very invested in this relationship. I feel out of pop culture, not in the way that I used to be, but I was very aware of that.
Speaker 2:How long have they been together? I?
Speaker 4:think five years. They got engaged like a month ago.
Speaker 2:So they got engaged a month ago and then they just broke up.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Interesting I mean?
Speaker 1:mean it's like celebrity relationships? Why?
Speaker 4:do we feel so invested in them?
Speaker 1:well, yeah, that's a good question. It's like we oh we.
Speaker 4:Oh okay, I was really actually referring to the collective the collective yes, the royal, we yeah, um yeah, why do we you?
Speaker 1:I mean. My theory is it's like a way to like be involved in the larger community without it having to be politics, which can be just so disheartening sure kind of said this before on the pod, like it can be, because I, even when I was thinking about stuff to bring in that's current, my mind immediately went to like a big political thing that happened and I'm like it'll just be such a bummer to talk about that yeah and I don't know that talking about it is even that useful.
Speaker 4:So we'll talk about need to know bread which is interesting because I think they released the breakup right after that event. And then you think about is that why they released it? When they yes.
Speaker 2:Did so it's overshadowed, so it gets buried.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:God the.
Speaker 1:PR around. It Is interesting too, yeah.
Speaker 2:When you announce yeah, what have you read about? What's the reasoning? Do we have any reason?
Speaker 4:Well, they haven't said anything Other than that they did. So everything is up to people to like make up their own stories.
Speaker 2:Make it up.
Speaker 4:Which isn't helpful.
Speaker 2:What's your best guess?
Speaker 4:Well, she made a TikTok, oh Like the week before the information got released, and it was a TikTok about I don't have TikTok so I'm going to sound, I don't know, but it was like her talking about women wanting to fix your man. So now the theory I don't know there's like these like clips or whatever. Yeah, I'm sounding so old.
Speaker 1:But it's like forensic, it's almost like the forensic.
Speaker 4:Yeah, people are like does this mean he cheated? Does this mean this?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Okay, this was days before this happened, yeah, so okay, this was days before this happened, yeah, wow.
Speaker 1:So it's like women out there you're trying to fix your man. You can't.
Speaker 4:Yeah Well, but like other women trying to fix your man, what yeah?
Speaker 1:Oh, or your man trying to fix himself through other women, maybe.
Speaker 2:Ooh.
Speaker 3:Outside the relationship. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean Salacious, maybe outside the relationship.
Speaker 4:yeah, I mean salacious speculation positively and this was in the tiktok yeah, but it wasn't her, it was like her, like with, like the.
Speaker 1:I don't know how tiktok works, you guys, it's like the dubbed over situation like the pictures and then like someone's, it's almost like a green screen it's like the sound of another situation, that she's like reenacting, and that's what it was, oh.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm going to have to look this up big time. So they were engaged for a month.
Speaker 4:Oh for only one month, but they were together for five years Together five years, that is very interesting, engaged for a month.
Speaker 1:The commitment of it. It like terrifying to this guy yeah, maybe you have to wonder. As a therapist you'd have to wonder because like five years solid, one month of engagement, yeah, so interesting. Runaway bride situation, yeah. Runaway groom yeah, well, we don't know wait do we know who broke it off.
Speaker 2:we don don't Right. This is all just make assumptions here.
Speaker 4:Yeah, could have been her, my bias, I guess Could have been her, could have been her.
Speaker 2:Could, have been her, could have been her Mia's going to side with her but I'm just saying, could have been him, could have been her, we don't know.
Speaker 4:So true, yeah, but you were invested.
Speaker 2:You were invested in this relationship you like, just a little bit. You like. I don't know why you liked both of them, though, as like people as much as you could like somebody you don't know yeah they had a bit of a like trying to be like a cute couple in the media they did, okay, they did
Speaker 4:yeah, they were very like loving dubby and I think I like grew up with her on that show, so it's like I'm like rooting for her.
Speaker 2:Which show is that again?
Speaker 4:The Vampire Diaries.
Speaker 1:I've never watched a single frame. Is it really good? It's fine, it's like yeah.
Speaker 4:It's like a good teen show. I may not get into one of those. I wouldn't watch it now. You wouldn't no.
Speaker 1:I'm a massive girl now. Yeah, well, that's classic.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but now you are dialed in.
Speaker 4:You want more information. I do want to know. And I don't normally find myself wanting to know that badly. What pop culture do you pay attention to? Any, but like a sports pop culture?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, a sports, pop culture that counts.
Speaker 1:Well if it's their personal lives.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I think that would probably be the closest thing that I probably pay attention to is just like sports stories that are maybe adjacent to the actual game.
Speaker 3:Like Kyrie Irving's, a flat earther.
Speaker 2:Sure, yeah, like that, that would interest me. Right, like he's a right that. Yeah, that's pop culture, perfect. Then probably more like sports related stories like that but I'm not into that we already talked about this. I'm not into that. We already talked about this. I'm not, and they're they haven't come for me yet, but I'm not into the taylor swift of it all.
Speaker 1:Yeah, with travis kelsey, like that just doesn't matter to me. The latest on that is I. I mean, this is like not anything, but I heard that they want to have a quote low-key wedding, which is like what?
Speaker 4:yeah, like she can't walk out of the house and have it be low-key well, also also like to announce that you want to have a low-key wedding is kind of People like go on Instagram and they say they like quit Twitter. It's like yeah, social media platform.
Speaker 1:It's crazy.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:What could possibly I mean a low-key wedding. I guess they could elope.
Speaker 3:Hmm.
Speaker 4:Maybe, she has her own plane, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, she's her own, everything, yeah, yeah. What do you think of their relationship? We've never talked about it.
Speaker 4:I mean, I'm into it, you are Okay, I am.
Speaker 1:I'm into it. In a lot of ways I'm into her, but yeah, yeah. I don't know Her being with someone who genuinely adores her.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's good. Admires her yeah.
Speaker 1:I think that's great. But then it's like spotlight goes on him and you're like yikes, that's funny.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yikes, especially when he yelled at that coach last year and stuff oh.
Speaker 1:I missed that. You would know that. He yelled at the coach. What happened?
Speaker 4:Yeah, but that stuff happens, I know it does Like all the time it's like high. What did he say Intensity? I? What did he say? Intensity? I don't even know if he said anything that bad it's not. I think that what they do is they kind of make a big.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sometimes they just make a bigger deal out of like. I mean, it's like a really heightened three hours where athletes are playing in a game.
Speaker 3:It would actually be pretty hard not to do that.
Speaker 4:They ream out their yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:They ream out their coaches sometimes, yeah, are like you don't talk, you're disrespectful. It's like these guys are like adults and they're.
Speaker 4:I'm not justifying the behavior, but it's like, yeah, they're gonna yell at people yeah, well, and you're asking them to do this like aggressive sport totally and to stay really calm like it doesn't really, and then it usually ends up that after the game they're like yeah.
Speaker 2:He yelled at me, we worked it out and all good it. I was like fine.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, like that type of thing, it's true, he yelled at me. I cried. We got through it. Yeah, he yelled at me.
Speaker 2:I journaled on the sideline and we were fine about it.
Speaker 4:Taylor Swift could write a song about that.
Speaker 2:Yes, oh, totally. Well that's my conspiracy theory. Is you know she's gonna?
Speaker 1:she's in this to get divorced, to then have another like album.
Speaker 2:Oh, is that your theory?
Speaker 1:yeah, wow, and frankly, yes, and frankly, it's huge theory.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's sweet she's gonna make a big to-do, and then you know all right, yeah, I mean. Well, if that happens, I think, somebody actually had ai generate like songs that had to do with breaking up with Travis Kelsey and they were all about like they had all of these like football like metaphors in it and something like that and it was kind of funny. Yeah, but this was before they got engaged, but then they were just dating. I love it.
Speaker 4:So you have somewhat of a pulse on the Taylor Swift Travis Kelsey situation.
Speaker 2:Well it's hard not to if you watch any type of kansas city game.
Speaker 1:And they panned her constantly, right, you know yeah, I mean that would be a good stat how you were like how much action is there in baseball? It's like, how many times do you pan to taylor swift? Yeah, chiefs game? Yeah, for sure, yeah.
Speaker 2:But there's also like racial components of that too, because they were saying how they? You know, she's white, right and so it's like they don't. There's all these other famous people who they never pan to you know, the comparison was like not that it's apples, apples, but like simone biles, because she was dating a packer football player who then ended up getting traded to the bears, and they're like they never pan to her and it's like this is a person who is worldwide renowned like the greatest in her sport.
Speaker 2:And it's like this is a person who is worldwide renowned like the greatest in her sport and it's like we're going to always pan to the white person you know, like that type of thing. Yeah, it's just an interesting thing.
Speaker 4:Can I ask a question just related to the sport? Yeah, like, does it depend also on the position of the player?
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, Travis Kelsey is a far better player than who she was dating.
Speaker 4:They're married. Is he a quarterback For sure? Oh, is Simone Biles married? Yeah, to Jonathan Owens, jonathan Owens.
Speaker 2:Yeah, travis Kelsey is a tight end, he actually, I think made a good play at the Bears game. Whenever the Bears game was that doesn't happen. That was For the Bears. Well he's.
Speaker 4:I'm kidding, listen this is the first season I'm actually watching the bears, because aiden, oh my, can I say his name?
Speaker 3:oh yeah it's up to you whatever you want.
Speaker 4:Sorry, um, um he's like wants to watch them, so we'll bleep it out. I love it. Oh my god, it's so cute watching football.
Speaker 1:Okay, he's getting into it.
Speaker 2:Does he get it?
Speaker 1:no.
Speaker 3:Aiden's, your son. He's how old he's in kindergarten. I met Aiden. I was speaking for the audience.
Speaker 4:You can leave his name in it's fine or you can cut it.
Speaker 2:No, it's so fine. I'm very cool. I mention Wes and Shane all the time.
Speaker 4:Okay, then I'm cool with it. I just don't. I've never, you know. Yeah, Anyway, I digress, but yeah, if it's exciting it is exciting.
Speaker 1:It is.
Speaker 4:Is your team, the Packers.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is. They started really strong this year and they made a huge trade.
Speaker 1:They beat the Lions right.
Speaker 2:And then Thursday night they just beat Washington, the Washington Commanders. They changed their name a while back.
Speaker 1:That's great.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so they're doing well. They made a big trade for this guy from Dallas, micah Parsons. That's so cool.
Speaker 4:Write that down.
Speaker 1:Kelly, yeah, literally you just don't partake. I really Football. It's like there's something where if I'm in a group and the football is on the tv, it's like my eyes instantly kind of glaze over and I'm like in another world. I'm thinking about like what am I gonna eat later? What am I gonna whatever? It's like football I can't engage with now. If they cut to taylor swift, I lock back in. But it's like the sport itself. It's a lot of standing around.
Speaker 1:It's short plays and a lot of standing around yeah, I mean it definitely there can be like the quick yeah yeah, it's like a whistle a couple things and then just tons of everyone being like pointing at this, pointing at that, did this happen? Replay yeah, like basketball. I mean it's going hockey it's going it's going even tennis we were.
Speaker 1:It was the us open when we were in new york, which was cool. I, every time I come to new york, it's the us open. My friend's husband said that he goes. You always come with the us open. I'm like I think the summer gets away from me and I'm like I want to go before it's cold yeah so then I go in september. Should I tell that story again? It's a good one it's pretty exciting.
Speaker 3:I like the part where you said I always go to the us open but I've never been to the us that's what I mean.
Speaker 1:I just like fly in with all the traffic, yeah, but we were there and everyone was into it, pure convenience, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was a roller coaster of a story.
Speaker 2:I was, you took us up and then we were there and then it came down and it was like you were there it was good.
Speaker 3:I liked it the husband we were staying with. We're staying with the husband, wife, our friends Leah and Solomon. He wanted to go to the US Open and Leah said no, no, no we have guests and I was like go for it. Yeah, we were very supportive, but we're going to have to cut that. Apparently, it was a pretty big final. Do you follow?
Speaker 4:Tess.
Speaker 3:No, do either of you guys follow Tess.
Speaker 4:Not, really Not really okay.
Speaker 1:I think it was like Alcaraz and the other guy who was really good.
Speaker 3:Yannick.
Speaker 2:I don't know Something like that.
Speaker 3:One of the names is Sinner. The last name.
Speaker 1:I think Alcaraz ended up winning, which was maybe an upset, uh-huh, which is kind of cool.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I love upset.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Tennis is fun too, because all the celebs there. Like every celeb under the sun was there. They do go.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they come out in New York.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because they're right there Like.
Speaker 2:John.
Speaker 1:Hamm was there All the bear cast was there Okay.
Speaker 3:All white.
Speaker 1:Well, no, ayo Adebiri, is that one? Was it? All the?
Speaker 3:whites from the bear.
Speaker 1:Yeah, actually I think, yes, Really, what's her name?
Speaker 3:Wasn't the Ayo Adebiri I always misspelled her name.
Speaker 1:I didn't see. Ayo, well, there you go.
Speaker 3:Well, yeah, but I guess I'm not gonna.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean tennis can be quite white, quite white.
Speaker 3:Yeah, whiter than golf, or yeah, is it? No, it's not. It's probably about equal yeah, yeah let's get some university in there yeah, totally, we're all white. All four of us are white sitting in this room.
Speaker 1:Pretty soon, this is gonna turn into a sports podcast yeah, I know, or like sports periphery is really what it's going to turn into it sounds like we're like trying to prove that we, like, are aware of sports and aware of race. I am aware of sports.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you are, you are you are, we could turn it in well, I said to you the first text.
Speaker 1:It's about the nba right, yes, an nba podcast. You were like do you want to do?
Speaker 2:a podcast. I was like, absolutely, it's about the nba, right?
Speaker 1:yeah, I'm still holding out hope yeah, I mean, that could be a way. Like you know about it, I don't know about it, so I have to watch the games to like get into it. Honestly, that is a fun idea for a pod like the neophyte and the expert wise man.
Speaker 3:Happy hour, part two yeah, what do you always say?
Speaker 1:there's something in the bully oh yeah, they say, a great podcast recipe for hosts is the professor and the bully like the professor obviously.
Speaker 3:And then?
Speaker 1:someone who makes fun of that person, which is definitely you wait, who am I in this?
Speaker 2:you're the bully oh, I have to make fun of everybody. The woolly bully, oh yeah, can it be both?
Speaker 1:Yeah, you can be a little bit of both. We're making up the rules.
Speaker 2:I like making fun of people though.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, well, maybe we should move into our topic.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the pop culture. We exhaustively covered pop culture.
Speaker 4:Yeah we're just going to have to wait on that. We'll update the audience as we learn more. You know, it actually is a good you could do a sports slash pop culture segment, because they combine both as well, so that then you can bring your NBA into it.
Speaker 2:Totally Well, and so many athletes date celebrities.
Speaker 4:That's what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:It's just like it's mashed potatoes and gravy.
Speaker 3:I mean it just goes together Spaghetti and meatball, Lamb and tuna fish it's peanut butter and jelly.
Speaker 4:Yeah, you get it, I do yes.
Speaker 1:You get it, you get it, okay, okay. So today our topic, our actual clinical topic, is shadow work. So we'll explain a little bit what we mean by this. But I'm actually curious what do you, when you first think of that idea, shadow work what comes up for either of you?
Speaker 2:well, I don't think I do much of it so, or at least in what you've talked about before.
Speaker 1:So yeah, well, tell us about that um. Tell us about what that you don't do much of it yeah, I guess.
Speaker 2:Um, you know, I I guess I would need a definition of what shadow work is in order to well, what makes you think you don't do it? Because I think you do um well, I don't say shadow work yeah, you don't use the word um, and my guess would be it's probably more of just like eliciting things from people that they're trying to avoid in the work that I do, or or you know things that they are fearful of or anxious about, or you know trying to.
Speaker 2:What inner experience is you know and trying to elicit that in real time. So, from like more of a functional analytic psychotherapy perspective, like noticing those behaviors in real time and then trying to like decrease the clinically relevant behaviors, the crb ones, and then increase, like the ones that I want to see, so them talking about the things that they don't want to talk about, or the shadow, or whatever that part is so you think of it more generally, like helping people, not avoid their experience probably yeah, if that's what we're, if that's what our shadow is yeah, well, I mean, I, I mean I'm thinking about, well, I'm curious, lori, what's your first?
Speaker 4:Um, I think of it as something that we're either that we're either aware of hiding or unaware that we're hiding in ourselves or like others, and I think, in clinically, I think it's very closely tied to shame. Yes, because whatever their secrets or shame kind of thing, and so, like for me in the room, it's a lot about trying to help, kind of what you were just saying, though like it's they're avoiding it a lot of the time or just totally unaware of it, and so then it's like bringing that awareness forward of where that, where those shadows lie, so that they can have more insight and create change from there. Yeah, because the way that I think of it totally, yeah, yeah, like avoidance.
Speaker 1:Is it like conscious or unconscious?
Speaker 1:right yeah, yeah, well, I think I believe from everything that I've known and researched, it originatesates from Jungian psychotherapy, which is like basically like disavowed parts of self you know, like parts of yourself you don't like, that you kind of put away into your subconscious or almost like hold down in one way or another.
Speaker 1:And, yeah, it's like as a therapist, you could like talk about that directly and consider it more directly. Or it could be more like the general discussion of like what you might be avoiding, or even you having to both like talk with them about their own like avoidance that they're aware of, or also avoidance, maybe that you're noticing they're not seeing, kind of like pulling it out of them. Because I feel like I I do a ton of this, but yeah, like helping people gain that insight into I mean I do some I'm gonna do this in my own life too like what are parts of myself that are real and true, that when they like are shown or someone else knows about them, I feel shame and I want to get rid of them, I want to cover them up, I want to resist them basically, so some kind of resistance.
Speaker 4:so, yeah, I mean I feel like that kind of thing, like parts of self we don't like, which I mean, I guess, could be emotions themselves, but also like identities, I think yeah, it's interesting, as you say, that I think about like parenting and how, like my kids going through something or having a certain emotional reaction to something just like holds up a mirror to something that I either, like thought I had healed in myself or just didn't realize was just kind of laying dormant and it's like, ooh, gotta check in with that.
Speaker 1:Well, that's a great point that, like other people's behavior, can really like awaken us to like disavow parts of self yeah totally do you experience anything like that?
Speaker 4:with parenting at all, like if you're willing, sure, um, like, I mean, even like the basic one of my kids is having a tantrum like at first it's fine and then, over time, when there's more and more tantrums and I see myself reacting in a way that I'm like I never thought I would react that way, and then it's like really having to dig into, like where is that coming from for me, in order for me to release and like that and have more awareness of myself, and like what that part's trying to protect me from, and like why I'm so uncomfortable with their.
Speaker 2:yes, tantrum, yeah yeah, I mean, I think that comes up in parenting a lot. Yeah, I mean, if, if you're truly trying to like I don't know, show up as your best self as a parent more often than not, which is like really hard to do. It's like, yeah, there's kind of constant replaying the tape of like, oh, like, yeah, that I didn't like the way I responded or you know whatever. And yeah, what's going on there?
Speaker 1:yeah, totally yeah, like what is this bringing up? Yeah, in me. Well, how is this like igniting my relationship with myself in a certain way.
Speaker 4:Yeah, have you ever heard the expression? If it's hysterical, it's historical.
Speaker 1:Yes, I love that one. Yes, I love that.
Speaker 4:And so it's kind of like that, whether it's with my kids or with a friend, or even with a client having a reaction, it's like okay, if my reaction feels disproportionate to the situation, there's something that is kind of like a shadow to be paying attention to, to like bring forward yeah, yeah, especially like hysterical, almost being like your emotional reaction, which everybody's had this like doesn't really match the right, yeah so you're like what's going on here?
Speaker 1:yeah, like this person cut me off in traffic and I like doesn't really match the actual context. So you're like what's going on here? Yeah, like this person cut me off in traffic and I like can't get over it. I'm really activated by it, yeah.
Speaker 2:So then the shadow work as to what.
Speaker 4:Bring the shadow to light, not to use like, yes, yeah, shadow and I mean gotta love that visual well, and I think, like in therapy, especially in like a relational context, you because it's a relationship you get to see how they bring themselves into the room when they're trying to show up a certain way or avoid a certain part of themselves. Then use the therapist, get to kind of draw attention to the fact that they're even doing that and what your experience is of them.
Speaker 4:Yes, which I guess is harder to do in like the more acute setting, yeah, yeah, but at the same time you're also trying to point out like maladaptive coping yeah which is similar yeah, and you're seeing them interact with peers yeah.
Speaker 2:So there there is the layer of like yeah, they're amongst others yeah, and I think process space, no matter what, even if it is acute, setting it, that can be space where thing a lot of things come up for people when they're processing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, or like the advice they might give someone else can sometimes reflect a shadow.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think like part of what makes me do this work in my practice is I will I think I think I told you this joshua was saying this too for me in my own therapy work I think it is the single most healing thing I've ever done. Like I remember doing it for the first time, more kind of like I was in my with my therapist, melissa, who I worked with for a long time, was also doing these like manifestation practices on the side, shout out to manifestation. So I was doing almost like a program around shadow work and then taking it into my therapy shadow work and then taking it into my therapy and I felt like it changed my entire life to like find what it is about myself that I reject and I was doing it probably a little more like concretely than I do in my work with my clients now but really finding like what, in what situations do I feel the most shame? And like what do I believe about myself there?
Speaker 1:in those moments, in those memories, like what's there and is there. I would kind of just to make it concrete, like put a trait with it Like some of my shadows. I remember that I would write them in a journal and I would try to let myself like embody them, and one was definitely like aggressive, like kind of like being reactive, being angry at times, like having anger was a big one for me, like vanity was a big one, kind of like stupidity was one feeling stupid, and I really do think it's like was the strongest ingredient in my like connecting to my own self-worth, which is what I always go back to like with clients, especially if I'm like lost with a client a little bit or like kind of in the weeds, thinking like where can we like look for shadow and sort of like draw that out a little bit, because it is kind of a powerful thing.
Speaker 1:I mean self-acceptance is such a powerful thing.
Speaker 2:I mean. What makes shadow having like? So is the overarching assumption that we all have shadows yeah and so what makes it maladaptive?
Speaker 4:it's not having it, it's our relationship to it or not knowing it's there, like what makes it a maladaptive thing I think it's what drives us to replicate patterns that don't serve us, like in our relationships, like when you hear yourself, clients, others like, repeating, like it's like why does someone keep getting in their own way, or why does this same relationship pattern keep playing out? It's like usually there's a shadow there, yeah, it's a part of self you're fighting. So it is a relationship to it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah Does that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I'm curious and I don't know if many of the listeners would be curious to that. You have it and that's one thing, but then it's like what makes it cause some sort of maladaptive, whatever, or distress in your life, right well, I think it is the process of disavowal of something that is actually part of you you know, it's like trying to hide a part of self.
Speaker 1:I. I kind of use that metaphor and, like some of my clients, think this is so fucking cheesy, but, like you know, x-men the character who makes herself look normal the jennifer lawrence and the new ones yeah, and uses all this energy mystique yeah yeah, she uses all this energy to not be blue to fit in, and there's like one character who's like why do you waste your energy? Like that should be as, as you are.
Speaker 4:Like you're so powerful.
Speaker 1:That's often like there's this inner conflict of like shoving into a closet an actual part of your humanity and self and it can I mean. Yeah, it's like non-acceptance of self really breeds like non-acceptance of so many things. Yeah, you know like almost anything in front of you, and like self-trust. Totally.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. Well, now I mean, what do you think of it in terms of like you're doing more behavioral stuff and act?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean again, I think it's more, yeah, it's like, whatever your relationship probably is to it, right, like you know, slowing the person down and being like what is coming up for you right now.
Speaker 2:And what are you thinking, or what I'm noticing. You're having some sort of reaction and then like what is your mind telling you? You know kind of like observing that and then kind of going with that, maybe digging deeper Is this something that you're avoiding? Or again, I think it goes back to like what are you trying to control or avoid or escape? Is that a part of you that you're trying to avoid or escape?
Speaker 1:or yeah um or thoughts about yourself yeah, yeah totally well, like I don't know I, I don't know.
Speaker 1:I mean, I'm not that clear on shadow work, so that's why I'm kind of like asking the questions, because I don't really think I have a firm grasp on it, you know yeah, because we you and I both do parts work and I'm always I mean, sometimes I think I'm overly trying to like thread together, like all the modalities I do, and when I think about shadow and how it fits into parts work, I think of like the parts we have that are protective, which are often protecting an inner child part that's carrying a shadow. That's usually how I think of it and they need to be unburdened from the shadow.
Speaker 4:Like an exile.
Speaker 1:Like an exile.
Speaker 4:Yeah so.
Speaker 1:I think of it. They're not the same and we're in the weeds of like these terms but for, like, the lay person in the audience but like, basically, an inner child part that's sort of blocked by protective kind of ego parts and yeah, it's carrying basically like a wound yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4:what do you think? Well, I'm just like thinking about and this is like kind of like a I don't know you want to call it, but I was like noticing this on my way here of like I, I have like a part of myself that like I would consider, maybe like historically, a shadow part of like if I'm in a setting talking about work or something academic, in some way, like I have to prove myself, almost like the stupidity thing that you said, and so I noticed that part coming up.
Speaker 4:So I was like actively like ground yourself like this is old stuff, this isn't new stuff, you know. And so like the almost like that imposter syndrome kind of thing kind of elicits that shadow of like how do you be as you are and be comfortable in yourself and like, thankfully I know you guys historically, so it's like I don't have. You know, I can leave that pretty quickly, yeah, but it still comes up Totally, you know, totally.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I'm sure it doesn't come up in every setting like this. It's like there's like a it's a specific thing, yeah.
Speaker 4:Or if, like someone who's not a therapist, like especially, I'm like surrounded by parents now and they're all like, what are your thoughts about this thing, about my kid? Or like this person in my life, and I'm like I have a moment where I'm like, oh, I need to answer this, and then I'm like, no, I don't.
Speaker 4:I'm not the expert in this situation yeah, but like that's kind of the shadow of like to get it. You know, I feel like a good way of thinking about it is like how did we get our needs met growing up? And often it's like in a way that's not necessarily it was functional then, but maybe isn't functional now, and so then we have to look at what's the unmet need, yeah, and so how do we meet? I don't know if this is like getting to whatever but like how do we?
Speaker 4:meet. How do we meet that need within ourselves now? Yeah, you know, yes, totally well, yeah, like I.
Speaker 1:I mean, I do really believe they pretty much all come from early childhood. Yeah, and to your point, it's like you disavow the part of you for a reason for a functional reason.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh, cause I often, like I I do like engage with some like more strictly Jungian material Not that I do that necessarily, but I'm interested in it. And there's an interesting concept called golden shadow, which is the same thing, but it's parts that you might think are socially desirable but they were unacceptable in some environment you were in. Like, let's say, you grew up and you had a sibling that was neurodivergent and really struggling and you were really school, came really easily to you and you had a lot of mastery around it. You might disavow that part of yourself because you might have been kind of punished for it or not given attention for it because this family system didn't want to make the other child feel bad and shameful.
Speaker 1:So it's like things, or even like sometimes some children have this if they were like more like traditionally attractive than their siblings or something, to kind of disavow that because maybe they were shamed for that or something there can be. There can be like socially desirable things that in some environment you had to play down or or like lock away that. Yeah, so it's really. It's like any part, no matter what like charge, it has to it that you don't let yourself be. That is like part of you. Yeah, I wonder, does it like make you guys think of your own shadows, josh?
Speaker 3:shadow, my shadow. I thought you were gonna say john. I thought you were gonna ask john well, you?
Speaker 1:you audibly said yeah.
Speaker 3:Oh, because I think I was excited to see what John was going to say.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I didn't realize. I said yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, we can go to John.
Speaker 3:Well, my shadow. You could probably answer that right, well we talk about it. Yeah, yeah. What is it like being so hard on myself? Or is of myself, or is that not? Am I like missing the mark?
Speaker 1:here a trait that maybe served me in childhood something.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but would the shadow be something I'm trying to disavow?
Speaker 1:something you are that you don't want to be probably like, and it may not be something you can just like drum up right now well, yeah, it's.
Speaker 3:I mean something, I something, I am that I don't want to be now yeah something I am that I don't want to be now no, no, just it's confusing, like I don't.
Speaker 2:I'm kind of lost.
Speaker 3:Well, I have thoughts going through my head that I'm not saying yeah, and you don't have to. You're scared. No, because I like feel like it's not, because I feel like I'm maybe not getting to the core of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, that's okay, some I mean this is why people come to therapy it's like sometimes it has to be really drawn out and like explored and like I've done a million hours on this so I can like name them like they're like a list item but like probably being like selfish that's such a. I'm so glad you bring that up because that is a huge one that comes up for do you think that tracks for me people?
Speaker 3:totally. And then I'll be like, oh, I'm like a huge narcissist. I probably have like narcissistic personality disorder yeah and then I like probably I've historically done a good amount of like people pleasing yeah yes, yeah, yeah, I think, I think that's definitely, but then I like think that, like everyone's happiness is like so dependent on my actions, which is like ultimately pretty self-focused.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Well, and often like a resisting of a shadow can make you live it even more, Right yeah?
Speaker 3:So it's just like be more selfish, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well. But even like, accepting a part of you doesn't always mean you're going to be it more. It often means the opposite in the practice of it. Like I noticed that for myself, like accepting stupidity and really like walking into spaces and being like I'm going to be the dumbest person in this conversation. If that comes up. I'm going to have no no like forcing of myself to like know something.
Speaker 1:I feel like I say the best stuff like because I'm like I'm not questioning, I'm not fighting myself and something comes out or something creative or something whatever and it's like, if I the the most like distress and stuckness comes out of the, the self-resistance a bit. So, no matter the trait, it often like settles a bit and the system integrates, if you can kind of like accept yeah, I like.
Speaker 4:I think when you say that, I think of like a client saying, like you know, they come in week after week and they feel like they're telling you the same thing and they're like I feel so, so stuck and like I don't know what to do. Help me figure out what to do. And like this I noticed, like the second, I get into like problem solving mode with the client. Usually there's something there that like they're avoiding something within themselves and if they can let go of whatever that is like the shadow, then they can just connect to like maybe this sounds a little woo, but like their inner knowing, I guess of like mind yes, yeah, what yeah?
Speaker 2:there we go yeah but you still because what's the shadow there?
Speaker 4:you said let go of the shadow well, like the shadow would be, whatever is blocking them from connecting them to themselves, like at their like core self, their wise minded self, whereas, like if we're in a protective or like shadowed place. It's in this way of like what should I be doing, or what's expected of me, or what's the right thing to do in this situation, or just like helplessness around. I just want to be in this anymore, like give me me a way out, instead of like wanting to work through the pain of whatever that might be.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I would slow that person down and be like okay, let's sit in stuck for a minute.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:What is it, what is your mind telling you about? Being stuck Because you've come in here three weeks in a row now, or whatever.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like so what does that feel like? To be stuck and to feel like you have no out? Or to, yeah, feel like they can't make a decision, or they feel like they have to show up into therapy in a certain way, or they're just looking, they're punting and they're just like looking for answers, right?
Speaker 4:or like those are just some examples, right, yeah, but, and I think it like, I think that's a that's exactly how you get to what's like, what the shadow is, what's behind it, because if you can especially like I'm thinking of like stuckness or helplessness, I think it can show a lot of old relational patterns, so like people wanting to be rescued, or blame other people for their helplessness, instead of like here's where I am now, how do I make choices within that?
Speaker 2:for myself yeah, does that, yeah, yeah, so then, from my perspective, it would be like so you're avoiding having to take a chance here, the fear of like moving this therapy in a direction because you feel? Stuck. Like you feel like I have to either feed that to you or give you an answer, and so maybe you're avoiding some of the whatever it is the idea that it might not work, or maybe you're gonna make a fool of yourself, or you're gonna, you know whatever it might be right, and so yeah yeah, yeah, like what are you afraid of it of happening, or what would it mean about you?
Speaker 4:yeah to make this decision yourself.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, what's the?
Speaker 4:belief, yeah, what's, yeah, what's the belief that you have about yourself?
Speaker 3:yeah, totally would this be a good time to give an example, like a fake example?
Speaker 1:yeah, a real example, yeah, like if someone who like felt so stuck yeah, well, I'm thinking of because that thing you said about like I and I and I take the my parts take the bait so much when someone does want that like problem solving, like just give me the rule book on this one I have moments where if I'm not in contact with my own parts, I can easily kind of go that route and there are times that's useful. You know, like the people need practical advice. But I'll often have to say like okay, let's take, let's give an actual example of someone coming in saying like I'm, I'm having this fight with my partner. I'm trying to think of like what's a good broad example?
Speaker 4:I think can I like one, one of the ones I hear like the most often think of, like what's a good broad example, I think can I like one, one of the ones I hear like the most often especially of like young adults and adults like is um, I hate my job, what do I do? And often they know the answer of what they should do totally, but they there's like something really blocking them from like actually doing that and like, yeah, obviously, like family, financial stability and like all that aside, it's like let's say that's not part of it. It's like what is the fear there? What's getting in the way of you being able to just come from a place of self? Yeah instead of yeah.
Speaker 1:And that's what's brilliant is like they know they do and they'll say it while they're with you.
Speaker 4:They'll say I know I hate this job, I know I don't want to do it, but yeah.
Speaker 2:You know. So the shadow part is that I'm incapable.
Speaker 4:It could be.
Speaker 1:It could be.
Speaker 2:It's good as an example. Yeah, it's like I can't leave my job because I'm incapable of landing on my feet and figuring out.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Figuring out like I can leave a job without having one lined up and yeah, or you know.
Speaker 4:another one is like women in particular. I hear it. I mean men too, but I guess, like I hear a consistent theme of like I don't want to, like, let the people down that I work for. Yes, like the people pleasing element of it and then it's like okay, well then, that is old stuff, the people pleasing that's. You've learned to do that over time. Why did you learn to do that? What's the fear if you don't put others needs before your own?
Speaker 1:yeah, you know, yeah, and you know like there's different ways. Right of like once, kind of like I, both identifying the shadow there and helping them reintegrate it, accept it it can be like straight up, like willingness stuff, like and sometimes it can be more almost like soothing techniques or like with the parts where it's like what would this part need to trust you to?
Speaker 1:do this, you know, or I mean a lot of it is trauma work to reprocessing that kind of more touchstone trauma where this might've developed, where you might've started to disavow this part because you had to helping them reprocess. That a little bit can help. But yeah, like that's a great example, like and it often can come up in those like seemingly intractable things Like I just hate my job, yeah, you know. Or like someone in a long marriage that's like I hate my partner, mm-hmm, you know, yeah, it is such like an encompassing topic though, or like someone in a long marriage.
Speaker 1:that's like I hate my partner.
Speaker 4:Mm-hmm, you know, yeah, it is such like an encompassing topic, though, that it is like, yeah, there's so many different ways you can take shadow work Totally, so it's not like it.
Speaker 1:I think it's the word that's throwing me off.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, give us a new word for your purposes no, no, no, it just yeah, because it's just give us a new word for your no.
Speaker 4:No, it just sounds like psychodynamic work.
Speaker 2:I mean, it is like it is yeah definitely and so, or just like yeah, what are you ashamed of from your past?
Speaker 4:like I'm not trying to like water it down but no, but I think it's like important to make it simple, though it's just like yeah union.
Speaker 2:Psychotherapy is is right yeah I think it's like the word of like what's the shadow and this and that? Yeah, that's maybe what's throwing me off a little bit, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, maybe even more broadly can be like that Where's the inner resistance?
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, does it bother you to think about psychodynamic work?
Speaker 2:No, I was trained heavily in it when I was in school.
Speaker 4:Were you really.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and my whole I was in a. My internship was an IOP that did process for two and a half hours every single day.
Speaker 1:Really.
Speaker 2:And then I met with individual clients and it was all. There was no topic, it wasn't skill-based, wow.
Speaker 1:It was all process. It was all process. Wow, it's like flooding with process For sure, yeah, Wow.
Speaker 2:So no, it was all psychodynamic work, which was great, and I learned so much, and I think that that's a great foundation for just my opinion, for any therapist to learn from that perspective versus like straight up.
Speaker 1:CBT or skills approaches, because you're really just like sitting with people and thinking about all of that relational stuff and yeah yeah, no I have no resistance to pro psychodynamic yeah, I guess it does have a little even of like a woo-woo kind of vibe, which is probably why I like it how would you define? Psychodynamic work.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, great question I like basically know what it means. I have a lot of therapists in my life, but I couldn't like fire off a reliable definition?
Speaker 1:yeah, because your mom would identify as more psychedelic.
Speaker 3:Sure, sure, yeah, I didn't know that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. What do you know about it? What's your guess? Freud?
Speaker 3:It's under the surface. Just one word, Freud it's under the surface.
Speaker 1:The iceberg it's intuitive yeah.
Speaker 2:It deals with the unconscious yeah, yep, okay, in simple, in simple, but that's not like a definition in simple, simple terms, psychodynamic theory this isn't coming off my head for people that are listening suggests that your present behaviors and emotional difficulties are rooted in unconscious forces and early life experiences, particularly childhood relationships. Okay, therapists, use this approach to explore your past, understand how it affects your present life and bring repressed feelings and conflicts into conscious awareness to promote healing and healthier relationships.
Speaker 1:Yes, Love and the original. Like way back in the furry days, insight was the biggest method of the treatment. Now it's more like dynamic than that where insight's a huge piece of things, but skills are in there to an extent, medication. Medication, totally, totally, yeah, yeah. Would you add anything to that?
Speaker 4:I don't think so.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that covers it but like the relationship in the you as a therapist is sort of live material for the actual healing. Yeah, and you know, that's part of like.
Speaker 2:Functional analytic is like what are your behaviors that are coming up that you want to decrease in the therapy space? And increase Because maybe there are certain topics you avoid Right an increase because maybe there are certain topics you avoid. Right, you avoid challenging your client on something, or you're okay with the check-in every week and you're not kind of like highlighting hey, like you're just kind of giving me a laundry list and really challenging them.
Speaker 2:So it's like just as much about in those moments of, like challenging your own behaviors. You want to decrease and increase more. Know functional ones yeah to get at what the person is dealing with.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally so that's important too what comes up in you? What are your shadows?
Speaker 2:you gotta check yourself before you check yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, in the therapy space, yeah yeah, well, it's like there are actually like for, for, like the who is like oh, I'm interested in this, I want to learn about this. Obviously, you can go to therapy, you can go to a therapist who might like mention this on their website, or whatever.
Speaker 3:Go see Kelly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you can see me. Come see me, or come see Lori, we know a few therapists, or even John or Lori yeah, a few therapists. Or even john or laurie yeah, any of us, um, but I do think there are some pretty good like even meditations on this and like that insight timer app where you just kind of like get in touch with yourself and and they're like very, I think, clever ways.
Speaker 1:You can sort of like be in a meditation and be guided through to like learn about, like where do you notice shame? Or in a given week, like was there a moment of like not wanting, kind of like not wanting to be in your own skin, or often like a one that's kind of like a trick is like when you'll notice like a trait of someone else really bothers that's a good one.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's a good one.
Speaker 1:It's often like a disavowed part of self you know it's like I have a friend who does my friend Megan, shout out to Megan I'm going actually to her bachelorette this weekend, but she does a lot of this work too. And she said she once had a coworker who was like really loud and kind of gave her opinions a lot and kind of extra and she would drive Megan nuts. And then she finally did some shadow work on it and she's like it's a disavow part of myself like that.
Speaker 1:I'm annoying that I'm, you know, intrusive, and and she did some work to kind of like accept it and and like express it and embody that a little bit more when it felt natural.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, that's a that's a great one, because that comes up for me a lot. I do want to answer your earlier question about parenting, because you had asked me specifically about yeah and since that time I've been trying to think of it and listen at the same time yeah, so I'm curious.
Speaker 2:But there's a part of me now. My kids are of an age and your kids are not there yet, but where now they are kind of like planning their own things, like together, and then they like kind of like almost try to tell you.
Speaker 1:Planning like outings yeah or like sleepovers or whatever.
Speaker 2:And they're trying to like, tell you, like, this is the plan, you know, like this is the plan, you know, and there is a handful, if not more, of parents who are completely cool with just willy-nilly their kids doing something.
Speaker 2:And I feel a strong urge to have to be that type of parent and I don't want to be that type of parent. I like a plan, I like to be rigid, I like to be rigid, I like to you know, and so there's a part of me that feels a little bit like I should be cool, like these parents, and I should be like flexible, yeah, and like I should just let my kid do whatever yeah like what you know, like sleep over or wherever, or not know where my kid is at times and just be okay with that, like some, and it's like I actually don't.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I don't know if the shadow is like I'm feeling like I need to be more, you know, flexible, and I'm feel shameful that actually, just as a person, I feel like, no, actually I like to have plans and I and I'm okay with that, but I don't know what your thoughts are there, but just an example, I guess, like what would the?
Speaker 4:what do you feel when you're having that experience of like maybe I should, you know, be more flexible? Or just like, let my kids do this thing, like, why? Like is that? Like? Do you want to feel like a sense of your kids are aware of how the other parents are? Is it like a belonging thing? Like what?
Speaker 2:It's not like a belonging thing for me.
Speaker 4:With other parents maybe.
Speaker 2:Maybe it's more of like, I guess, now that this is the age you know this is happening more with my oldest and so it's more of like, I guess, now that this is the age because this is happening more with my oldest, and so it's like my first time being a parent to my oldest. And I'm sure I will be more flexible when my youngest is this age, yeah.
Speaker 2:And so I think there's a part of me that's like am I not? Am I missing the cue of, like, what I should be as a parent right now with a child of that age, or something like that?
Speaker 2:It's not like a social pressure thing, where I feel like I need to fit in and be like with them, cause that doesn't necessarily matter to me, but like it's more of like. Am I being a bad parent Because at this point of their life I need to be more flexible, because they're more independent or something I don't?
Speaker 4:know, yeah, so like the judgment of yourself as a parent yeah, which is not 24 7, right like always judging myself as a parent, because that's part of like right parenting but like you have the awareness of the part of you too that's like, no, I'm actually okay with this being my parenting self right now. So it's like then you have this other part which, yeah, we could kind of refer to in the shadow lens of like why is this coming up and like shaming me for the way that I actually want to be handling this?
Speaker 1:yeah, right now, yeah, is there a feeling that comes with it like anger or like?
Speaker 2:I mean, I think it's just like frustrating yeah, yeah and you know I've expressed to my children, and especially like in moments where they're just like, can we do this? And they say it like right in front of the other kid. And it's like I don't want to have to say no to you and your friend, Like that just feels bad, Like can we like have a plan and talk?
Speaker 4:about this.
Speaker 2:I would like to. That just feels bad, Like can we like have a plan and talk about this? I would like to.
Speaker 4:I also want to include your mother in the plan like and like, not just make decisions unilaterally about like where you're going and things like that.
Speaker 1:So, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I think what's coming up is like in those moments it's just more like frustration, you know, and also like I'm the type of person who's like I kind of like have my day, the vision of it. And then if it's like all of a sudden, kind of like whoa, we're going to take a hard right, that throws me off.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure. Yeah, you don't like that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, do I never like that.
Speaker 1:Well, maybe sometimes, but Maybe I don't like that. Unless I'm in control of it yeah yeah. Unless I'm in control of it yeah yeah, Like it feels upsetting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I don't know if that's an example of like shadow stuff or maybe we would have to explore it deeper.
Speaker 1:It can be.
Speaker 3:Well, because I'd be curious, like for myself.
Speaker 1:I think like this will come up sometimes, like with when I'm in a place where I'm not so in control of my time. Sometimes I'll get like so frustrated.
Speaker 1:And what I might do with a client in that case is sort of like let's go to the frustration, be with it, like you were saying, where it's like let's stay there and sort of like get to know that frustrated part, like I'll often say, like give it unfiltered, just like tell us everything it's feeling, and it's like this part might be like I don't want to do that.
Speaker 1:I want to do what I wanted to do. And then there's some level of asking, like if I wasn't frustrated in this part of me relaxed, what am I afraid would happen? Right, like almost like if I just went with the flow of this, like dinner or whatever, what am I afraid would happen? And often for me it's like I'll kind of disappear, like I'll be steamrolled and no one will see me and I won't, like I'll just like be engulfed by everybody else.
Speaker 1:And I do have past experiences of that that are like traumatic, I would say so it's like I think, and then it can be going to soothe that part of me, that's like it's like and I say to a client like, if you're fearing that, I wonder if there's a part in there that already feels that now and a lot of the time, yes, and it's like let's go to that part and give that part some like self. Compassion is often what it is. It's like love and care and helping, helping protective parts relax so shadow can come out and you can just soothe it really and like I don't know if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:It's like I can feel very like if I don't put my stake in the ground with these plans, like no one's gonna care about me, no one's gonna see me, and I'll just like a tidal wave will wash over me and and then often, like when you go to that part I mean this doesn't always happen, but I don't know if you know, it's like sometimes, spontaneously, the wise mind's there, the self is there, saying it's okay, that won't happen, like that was the past, it's not the present. You can do this, you know, by just bringing it up, not always, but a lot of the time, and especially if you get in like the rhythm of it, whether you call that shadow work or just like what's the feeling and what does it need? You know, and maybe it's sometimes you know there's something important there too, like the wise mind isn't just going to like succumb and go with the flow. Like the wise mind to your point knows what to do.
Speaker 1:So it's like you know, like when it's appropriate to actually let Wes kind of change the plan.
Speaker 2:And I've worked on that really hard to just kind of not reactively, just kind of like say no to it if it's more spontaneous. Yeah, not reactively, just kind of like, say no to it if it's more spontaneous. Yeah, and said yes to it, you know which doesn't feel good, but at the same time it doesn't really matter because it's value aligned to yes for me to be more flexible and to allow him the space to.
Speaker 2:That's great. You're becoming more independent, you're making your own plans and, yeah, I shouldn't shut that down every time you know like because you can also honor that like.
Speaker 4:It does bother you and I think there's a reason right, yeah, absolutely yeah, totally I, you don't have to get into this, but like that's where. Like, if I was with a client, I would be curious to like how their parents responded to them individuating, you know totally. And like that like either. Like planning rigidity part versus the flexibility part, what were you able to embody? What do you wish you had more of? And like, how is that coming up? Like is your. This is the 10 year old right. Like is your 10 year old self.
Speaker 2:This is the 10 year old.
Speaker 4:Yes, is your 10 yearold self having a reaction to this situation.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 4:You know yes.
Speaker 1:Totally yeah, so that's a good example. That is a good example, I mean, I'm sure, with parenting.
Speaker 4:It's like Right and left everywhere, bringing up everything. Yeah, Totally Well, and like just the idea of like I don't parent my two kids the same. They're different people. Yeah.
Speaker 2:They're different people. Yeah, you know, and you're going to parent, not you. But like again, what I kind of mentioned is like I'm going to have more. I'm going to have more battle scars from the first one. Yes, so I know I'm going to be more flexible with the second one.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because that's already happened in so many instances, battle scars yeah, you know what I'm saying when it's like Physical scars.
Speaker 2:Literally it's so scratchy Literally. You have so much more experience with that first one that you, because you never had the experience. Right one, I guarantee. When shane's making friends with his plans, I'm gonna be like do whatever you want, man, like I don't like you know, like, because it's just like you didn't do it the first time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, here's the key to the cast you know, so totally so absolutely they're two different kids, but it's also like two different contexts, because then it's like you have the older one doing whatever they're doing. But that's going to be your first time doing it with that age. And then you have the younger one where it's like, oh, we remember him when Wes was in fifth grade. Now you're in fifth grade.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that makes sense, and it's like you go through it and then you know what you feel comfortable with versus not, whereas you don't like. You have an idea.
Speaker 2:No, you don't, but you don't really know. You don't have the data. Yeah, because you're like you're kind of playing jazz with it until you figure it out, you know, and then it changes. Well, at the time you figure it out, it just changes anyway.
Speaker 1:And you're so vulnerable with that first kid because of that, which is going to bring up more shadow.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sure.
Speaker 4:Although, if you get a kid, that's like harder in some ways with the second kid, yeah, well, I think, like what my josh and I notice is that, like the kid who remind us, who reminds us more of ourselves, is the one that we have more shadow work around, and it sometimes takes moments to be like what was that?
Speaker 4:um, it's I don't know what that was some kind of banging around sometimes it like takes a pause to be like oh, like, that was me, you know. That's why I don't like this so much, you know because I locked this word of myself away yeah watching someone else live it yeah shut it down
Speaker 4:yeah, like like noah is like she's two and a half, but she I was telling you she's Like she knows what she wants. She has no problem telling you really loudly I love it and I've never really had that part of myself. So when she does it I like think it's funny. It's funny Totally.
Speaker 1:I think that's funny too. Yeah, kids do it.
Speaker 4:Whereas, like Josh, did have that part.
Speaker 1:And then when he reacts to it, he's like oh my God, you're so loud, like stop, so funny, yeah, because it's like so yeah, me, so yeah. And I think maybe like I might have been more manipulative than direct.
Speaker 1:So maybe like if I see one of my nieces being more indirect, it might like annoy me more. Yeah, yeah, Because, yeah, I think like I was a big, like I was like famously just such a crier, I like cried all the time I was I'm a Pisces, just for everyone knows but like, truly like everything made me cry and made me upset to the point where it's like I'm sure people were like, oh, really again.
Speaker 3:Was it authentic?
Speaker 1:I mean, I think so, authentic, I mean I think so, but who knows, you know, like, maybe it was more learned, like this is the only way you know Like To get attention, yeah, or to get my needs met, or to be heard, or to be seen. Like I had a brother who was very easily seen and very capable and shined in a lot of ways and could have been really that could really do a million things.
Speaker 4:But yeah, could have been related to that, could really do a million things. But yeah, it's like, yeah, and that's the thing that I think in doing this work, it's like you don't always need to know the why, you just need to know that it's there, because then, once you know it's there, you can work through it.
Speaker 1:Totally, yeah, yeah to have that sense of like. Oh, this isn't just me being nuts, right, there's a reason here. Yeah, totally well, I wonder, just for the sake of time, of course, we haven't like fully perfectly.
Speaker 2:I look, I went like this.
Speaker 3:I don't have a watch john's looking at his john's got some bands on his wrist I have moose bands for my kids camp over the red, white and blue one's pink oh sorry I looked at it as if it were a watch blue, one's pink, oh sorry.
Speaker 2:I looked at it as if it were a watch it's moose band time so maybe we'll.
Speaker 1:Now we'll pause our discussion on shadow. I'm sure we'll talk about it again. It's a biggie, it's a biggie, it is um. But now we'll move into our. How is this a question? How wise is it to own a pet or pets? So I'm curious, first blush, what do we think?
Speaker 3:First blush is Doug Blush, my mentor. Shout out, shout out.
Speaker 1:Who has a?
Speaker 3:dog yeah, they've always had a dog.
Speaker 4:Yeah, do any of us have pets?
Speaker 2:No, I grew up with two cats.
Speaker 4:Uh-huh.
Speaker 2:Not at the same time. Uh, one past. We had one for I was like in first grade, maybe until check my swatch check my watch until now, until I was like a freshman in high school, and then we got another one when I was like a sophomore junior in high school, maybe, or something like that. Another one when I was like a sophomore junior in high school, maybe, or something like that, so you do identify more as a cat person.
Speaker 2:No, my parents didn't want a dog, and so I think that that was kind of like. What we were left with was that it was kind of like we were able to get a cat, which I'm allergic to, but I like, when we like had the cat visit us for a weekend, I like tried to hold in all of my sneezes and not blow my nose as much as possible so that my parents would still get it. So I grew up with it and I think it was a it was, you know, a nice experience to have like a pet around, but I don't currently own.
Speaker 2:I just rent pets.
Speaker 1:No, I'm kidding I don't have any pets. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think it's definitely wise for a lot of reasons. It's not wise for me to have a pet now, yeah, what do y'all think?
Speaker 3:I don't. I don't think it's wise right now yeah, because I'm too much of a pet lover. I kind of want to love other people's pets and just have like a lot of time to edit. Do my work they are delicious. See that they are time I get like too obsessed with them josh.
Speaker 1:literally when we're home in michigan or in josh's childhood home in michigan, you literally will walk the dogs for like 30 minutes and then it's like 30 minutes later he's like yeah, take dogs out, like you're out of your mind. You gotta give them a bath, but I bet they love it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they do, and I think it's probably reinforced in a similar way by you. Know, my mom Shout out Elisa Day.
Speaker 1:Well, you guys are amazing pet owners. You are.
Speaker 3:But then we come to take care of this dog. He's a puppy Cody, and he just wants to play fetch literally the whole time 24-7. He'll bring us a ball. It'll be like 2 in the morning. He'll bring us a ball. We're trying to watch a movie and then, if you don't immediately throw it, he'll bark yeah. So you're playing fetch with him all day long, every day. That's hard.
Speaker 1:That is hard.
Speaker 3:But, he's so cute. He's so cute.
Speaker 1:But he's not wise yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's hard, I think you got to have limits and if it's hard for you to have limits.
Speaker 3:It's probably not wise. I'm psyching myself up to be a dad yeah, Totally wise, but a pet on top of that.
Speaker 1:It's like yeah, getting a pet when you're just about to hopefully get a kid. Have some self-compassion.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think, where it becomes unwise. Wise for me is like when you're thinking about traveling and like you have to board it, or you have to find somebody to take care of it, or, and also I think it's unwise this is just me, but like I don't want to put it in like a doggy daycare every day like yeah, I.
Speaker 2:I just feel I'm sure they do a great job at those places, but like nobody's home with the dog every day. So you know my grandfather, when he retired that was the first thing he did was get a dog.
Speaker 4:And I was like that was great yeah.
Speaker 2:He was home, he took it to the dog park every day.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's great Like companion, exactly. Yeah, it was like a great. We kept him young, yeah, and my grandma absolutely and then we could like visit it.
Speaker 2:You know, when we were kids, and it's like that makes sense. You're at home now yeah, and it's like you can be home with your dog. I just that to me would be a real hardship. To be like man, I gotta drop this dog off every day yeah and again.
Speaker 4:I'm sure those places do great jobs, but right but traveling seems like a nightmare I mean it'd be crazy if you're like you gotta put them in a dog daycare and then your child at a daycare yeah, what the that's oh?
Speaker 3:my god maybe you can drop them off together, oh my god child and dog that's a business idea it's called child and dog.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I also have a weird thing about and then I'm sorry I've been taking a lot of space sorry. I've been taking up a lot of space of like dogs that don't have a lot of space to like run it? Yes, and if you grow up in a congested city, or at least in an area of the city that doesn't have a lot of like dog parks, Right.
Speaker 2:I just feel like they're not getting the movement that they need. A lot of dogs need a lot more movement than the city could offer If you don't have a backyard.
Speaker 3:I feel like treating your dog right really becomes difficult.
Speaker 1:It's hard.
Speaker 3:Because you can just let him go frolic in the yard. And if you have two dogs, which my mom has. They'll just wrestle. They have a buddy, but then he'll come inside and still want to play catch 24-7.
Speaker 2:I know, we're focusing on dogs, but there could be other pets.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's true. But you know, I know we're focusing on dogs, but there could be other pets.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's true, sure, yeah there can be cats Fish.
Speaker 3:What do you think, Lori Fish?
Speaker 4:I mean not wise for me.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Because two kids.
Speaker 2:You do have a yard, though.
Speaker 4:We do have a yard. We have, but like two kids is kind of enough for me to take care of, for sure. Another thing to take care of yeah, like I don't have the capacity and we have allergies, we have, like, my in-laws have a dog and our good friends have a dog, um, and that's enough, I think yeah, I do think that's the sweet spot like I'll go around you.
Speaker 3:That are doing all the walks have dogs in your life, have cats in your life, life that reminds me of one of Sarah, my wife's coworkers.
Speaker 2:She has three kids and for Mother's Day one year, like her husband got her like this huge plant and she was like, thanks, another thing to try to keep alive and I was like that's an amazing response.
Speaker 1:So, true.
Speaker 3:Like great. Another thing I have to keep alive, yeah yeah, that's a good point, because you're dead now you don't need a plant. I'm like thinking about being a dad, so it's like I gotta take care of these plants, like to myself like yeah, yeah I haven't killed most of these plants no, you're pretty good but I killed a plant in los angeles and I was like I could never be a dad different level of care yeah, wait, I have.
Speaker 2:I have like a shadow question to ask about yeah, yeah what is a pet? That you know maybe you have some shame about thinking this, but that you think is kind of like a worthless pet that when people have it, you're like I can't say it, but that's actually kind of like a worthless one yeah an otter.
Speaker 1:Do people today said she wants a legal otter when those are wow, I'm with because otters are so cute.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the young sleep on their like their mom's tummy yeah, their mom's, yeah, it is very cute, yeah, because I kind of have like I feel bad about saying that, but like birds, oh I had a bird grown up like people have birds in their house. I'm like that, like creeps me out sorry, no, it was totally.
Speaker 1:We regretted it like week one, yeah, and the bird like hated us. It was like the nastiest bird, plus it's hard. I mean, maybe it was just like these people have no idea how to care for a bird.
Speaker 4:This was like an impulsive purchase I've never heard someone say they had a bird as a pet and like didn't follow it up with, like the bird hated us yeah, and my shadow always wants to be like why, yeah, like a bird well, I had a friend who had a bird that was a friendly bird and we had a good experience with it.
Speaker 1:you could like have it on your finger and like have it on your shoulder and like I thought that was cool, Got it. So I kind of just like copied my friend and then like our family's, not like he's like pet like adventure. It was like we got lizards too.
Speaker 4:And you have to feed lizards live crickets.
Speaker 1:You sure do. So we of course, like one day my younger brother's like putting the basket of crickets like theoretically in the thing everywhere everywhere there were crickets for weeks, it's crazy.
Speaker 1:It was crazy for weeks, yeah, and then they're loud as I'm reflecting. It's funny that my parents let us do all this yeah that, they just were like you want to burn. Yeah, they're like okay, they took us to the store, yeah and we we had a dog as well for 17 years, 16 years, um, yeah, yeah, we had a turtle, lots of stuff. Yeah, yeah, pretty crazy For like people that don't consider themselves, like they don't identify, like that you know, like exotic pet. There's exotic pet households.
Speaker 1:Right Like definitely not us. Yeah, we tried it on. We never had a cat, that's the one. We never had Fish we had. Yeah, yeah, I think, like maybe I think fish are kind of pointless. Is that sad?
Speaker 4:You know what we did with the fish.
Speaker 1:There we go.
Speaker 2:Talk about shadow right now I definitely want to know.
Speaker 4:No, it's not that bad, but we basically let Aiden get a fish for the purpose of like being able to teach him about death. Oh, that is actually great it was, but then the fish wouldn't die.
Speaker 1:Oh, the fish was like a little stupid fish.
Speaker 4:It was like a bait-a-fish Too long A bait-a-fish yeah.
Speaker 2:You gotta get like a goldfish, don't those not have a long life span I know Well.
Speaker 4:Josh took him to the pet store to get a goldfish. He got suckered into a lot of. He got oversold by the pet store, but I mean eventually he died in. And was it helpful like not? Really it was too abstract for him at that age. Yeah, yeah, he like kind of once we he experienced another like form of death.
Speaker 2:He then he related it back to the fish, so obviously it stuck with him in some way so smart yeah but like hamsters and gerbils and mice smell really good like oh my god, I do not want a mouse in my house ever.
Speaker 3:Yeah, there was.
Speaker 2:Yeah, people do have pet mice yeah, I've seen people yeah, but the wheel and the little like oh my god drink out of the thing and a little like metal ball?
Speaker 1:yeah, gerbils, people have, and what's the other bigger?
Speaker 3:hamsters guinea pig.
Speaker 1:Oh my god, it truly like puts a chill down my spine yeah, have your kids ever asked you for a pet?
Speaker 2:oh yeah, I mean they will. Wes, especially my oldest, like really wants a dog and he has some friends that have them and um, which I'm always like, you're in a great spot here. You have friends when you go over to their house like you get to and you don't have any of the responsibility of the dog. But, um, he's very, very like pro wanting a dog. And it's just like we just we're not going to do it, you know. I feel bad saying it to him and it's just like it's not happening.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, my youngest was actually. For some reason he was just very and this could have been because, like when COVID happened, like he just wasn't around dogs ever but he had like a real kind of like big fear of dogs um and just like their unpredictability, like, and that type of thing. He's gotten much better with it, but he doesn't.
Speaker 1:He's not really that into it yeah yeah, but they ask for us not so wise, not so wise.
Speaker 3:We're all in our 30s either with kids or thinking about having kids.
Speaker 2:I but maybe when our kids go to college Not in my 30s.
Speaker 3:Oh sorry.
Speaker 2:I wish I were, but I look like it. What a compliment.
Speaker 3:John is 28. Good point.
Speaker 1:Speaking of that, Josh and I went to a bar yesterday before we went to our little anniversary dinner. They carded Josh and not me. How?
Speaker 3:dare they.
Speaker 4:Because I'm 28.
Speaker 1:Oh my, God, how dare they? Oh my god damn it. They're like I mean, I'm like I looked nowhere near 21, but like neither do you no, I probably look 42 were they like.
Speaker 3:Way to bag that cougar go, get him tiger go get him oh my god, oh my god so not wise for this room maybe.
Speaker 1:I do think it's wise for people that are a little bit of homebodies.
Speaker 4:Yeah, maybe I do think it's wise for people that are a little bit of homebodies, yeah, or retirement, yeah, or people that work, for some people that work from home like really enjoy, because that gets them out of the house and that's actually like really useful for them, because if they didn't have that pet they would just literally be in front of the laptop the whole time.
Speaker 3:Yeah, especially if you're single, I think.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, and there's a social element to it especially with dogs. Like a lot of people really enjoy, like having that community at the dog park or even at the dog beach.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh yeah. When I was on dating apps there would be a lot of like profiles I would see of guys that were like looking to be your next like dog dad, and I was like so weird. Yeah, like trying to get dog dad, and I was like so weird.
Speaker 3:Your dog dad Like wanting to meet someone who had a dog.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's interesting, but people who love dogs really love dogs.
Speaker 1:I loved my childhood dog but, like I'm not that person that's obsessed with every single dog, but you know some person's like super excited to be like, finally a guy who's wanting to be my dog dad. Yes, absolutely well, josh had quite a few dog pictures he was on a five.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we almost missed, missed our opportunity. I almost would have been like okay and one of my three prompts was I'm directing a documentary about pet psychics yeah, but that was cool okay, there are pictures.
Speaker 1:I would say this is the last thing I'll say because I know we're at time, but like I would see pictures of guys, like every picture was them and their dog. It's like why don't you just date your dog?
Speaker 4:This is ridiculous. Like, yeah, what are they trying to communicate to you? What on earth? Yeah, I do wish I was a pet person. Yeah, I'm just not.
Speaker 2:But you do like dogs. I do love dogs and like pets, Like when I go to somebody's house and they have a dog. I love petting a dog?
Speaker 4:Yeah, totally love it.
Speaker 2:And if they have a cat. I love that too, even though I'm allergic.
Speaker 4:I still.
Speaker 2:I do love that, I just.
Speaker 4:Not for you. The ownership. Yeah, the ownership is not wise for me. Same yeah, okay. Well, maybe that's our episode.
Speaker 2:We've really solved it again.
Speaker 1:We've solved it every time really even you know to breath it's wild how good we are at this yeah totally okay. Well, we'll do some plugs, laurie, tell us, do you want to?
Speaker 2:plug anything your website, your practice, your whatever you want sure my.
Speaker 4:I'm with Affiliates and Counseling in Northbrook. You could email me at laurietolinlcpc at gmailcom flaunt that LCPC.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you can find me at buttsbuttzjonathan at gmailcom. Email me questions, email me. How wise is it your take on dogs or pets in general, or even birds?
Speaker 3:Josh. What about Kelly? I'll be joshbearfilmscom. Bear as in the aspirin. You can find me on that site and that's where you can reach me.
Speaker 1:It's on that site too okay now if you want to reach me, you want to reach me. You want to work with me. You want to send in topics, questions, anything about the pod kksychotherapycom. I have an inquiry page, so shoot me an inquiry there. Okay, and thanks everyone.
Speaker 2:Thanks Lori, thanks for having me. Thanks Lori, and thanks Blanket Forts. Thanks Blanket Forge. Thanks Blanket Forge. It was incredible having you.
Speaker 4:Yes, we'll maybe have you again.
Speaker 1:We'd love it, okay, love it All right, Take care everyone.
Speaker 3:Bye, bye.
Speaker 1:The Wise Mind Happy Hour podcast is for entertainment purposes only, not to be treated as medical advice. If you are struggling with your mental health, please seek medical attention or counseling.