The Wise Mind Happy Hour
Two therapists musing about the idea of an inner wise mind and how to connect with this psychic space in different contexts.
The Wise Mind Happy Hour
the wisdom of SELF COMPASSION + ironing clothes
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For those of you who roll your eyes at the term "self compassion"...this ep is worth a listen. (Or at least a read through the transcript.) Many of us are so stuck in a trance of unworthiness, that it might seem like self compassion is overly indulgent (or counter to our ambitions.) In this episode, we respectfully challenge this notion...and also dive into the wisdom of ironing clothes....or is steaming best?
- music by blanket forts -
Welcome and Personal Updates
Speaker 1Welcome to the Wise Mind Happy Hour. I'm John.
Speaker 2I'm Kelly Welcome.
Speaker 1We're your therapists. We're always joined by our producer, Josh. Hi, Josh.
Speaker 3Hey, what's up?
Speaker 2Yeah, welcome or.
Speaker 1Jish, as we affectionately know him. Yeah, as we call Jish.
Speaker 2You know, I should even explain why I call Josh Jish From the very beginning of our relationship. I don't know if this is a typo in my phone or like the way my fingers are shaped, but every time I would type his name it would type out Jish. And actually when I type your name, sometimes I type Jim.
Speaker 1Wait, how do you spell Jish?
Speaker 2J-I-S-H. Oh interesting, yeah. So I ended up like I would sometimes accidentally send it because I was sending it so fast, and then it kind of became a joke between us that Jish and then Jish turned into Jishy.
Speaker 1But is that like an autocorrect, or it just that's the way?
Speaker 2I don't know if it's autocorrect, or my fingers are just like weirdly shaped.
Speaker 1Yeah, phones do weird stuff like that.
Speaker 2Because why would it correct Josh to Jish?
Speaker 1That's what I'm saying.
Speaker 2Now is that me with like my like overly?
Speaker 3white lens, like maybe jish is a common name.
Speaker 2It is in like you know, scandinavian southern, which is also white in scandinavia, but it's yeah. Who knows why it auto-corrects a certain thing I know that's interesting, but now it's this legal name, so we've changed. We got married, we changed yeah, we changed neither of our last names but his first name changed.
Speaker 1Well, I have, I. I saved this. I didn't talk about this in the pre.
Speaker 2I want to know huge news.
Speaker 1I am gonna wear this wise mind happy hour t-shirt every time we record Really yes.
Speaker 2I love it I decided today.
Speaker 3What prompted this?
Speaker 1Because I wear the same shirt to work every day. Yeah, I have like six of the same one.
Speaker 2I think I've mentioned this on the pod before yes, yes and we have these beautiful t-shirts that were a gift that John, your wife, made.
Speaker 1Yes, sarah made them, but they have the logo that Jake my brother made on them and I was like I don't ever wear it. So now I'm going to wear it I feel like it's going to get me in the zone every time.
Speaker 2I'm in.
Speaker 1I love that, I really love that. Actually, it's like not then when I come home or I know we're recording, I don't even have to think about what I'm going to wear, because I just know I'm going to be in the zone. It's my uniform.
Speaker 2Yeah, wasn't that the whole Steve Jobs? Yeah, what's the theory? It's like elimination of choice, or something.
Speaker 1Yeah, well, right, you're not wasting time. Yeah, you're not wasting time making decision fatigue. You're focusing your energy on other things? Yes, you're not. You're focusing your energy on other things. Yes, okay, actually I this is not really huge news, I just mean, for me it is because, any sartorial choice is interesting to me.
Speaker 2As you know, I like think about this stuff way too much with sartorial.
Speaker 3Sartorial means like clothing why did I always think it meant um something else?
Speaker 2um, but no, I. I read a bunch of sub stacks that talk about like fashion and whatever. Like they'll, they'll come out, you know, with an article each week about it, and one of the my favorite ones this week it was like uniforms for adults yeah and how like helpful it is to just like, to even like, explore your creativity in a box.
Speaker 2Hers was more like a skirt, a shirt, a stocking this is for fall and some kind of like flat shoe, and I loved all the different combos of it she came up with. But you're even like I'm going to shirt this shirt. Yeah, I love it, I'm for it, I just feel.
Speaker 1I feel comfortable in what I'm comfortable in and it's like why deviate? Why deviate From the plan.
Speaker 2I think that's completely fair. I'm like part of me is like some of the time I'll join you.
Speaker 1Yeah, this is not. I'm not prescribing this to anybody.
Speaker 2You're not prescribing it Totally.
Speaker 1I'm saying this is what I was changing into it. I was like you know what, Just go for it.
Speaker 2Why just hurt? You're coming with me every night.
Speaker 1I'm just doing it every night and we record every single day.
Speaker 2We record every single day, every single night.
Speaker 1But what's interesting about recording? I was also thinking about this and I was laughing and I want to your take on this. Have you had people who you're close to in your life, who know you record a podcast, and will say, hey, how is how's the podcast going, knowing full well that they haven't listened to one episode?
Speaker 2yeah, yeah, oh yeah, isn't that interesting, totally what do you think about that? Yeah, it's like I the most like. It's funny. It's like I can't tell if for me is the asking bothersome or is it just simply they're not listening. Whether they asked or not.
Speaker 1I was laughing to myself about it, because it's like it requires, no, like you can literally listen to a podcast at any moment of your day. It's not like we're requiring.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1It's just so funny when it's like somebody who's just like, hey, how's that thing going? And it's like if they ask you about like how's your job going, they can't like go to your job.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1Or how was that trip? They weren't on your trip.
Speaker 2It's like at any moment.
Speaker 1They could literally hit, play and listen to our podcast.
Speaker 2But they could literally hit, play and listen to our podcast. But it's just so funny to me when it's just like, hey, how's that going? You tell me what episode is that? I haven't actually been more interested in your thing. I listen to one. Yeah, it's like then they're like get extremely uncomfortable.
Speaker 1You know it's so funny. I'm not offended by it, it's just funny to me.
Speaker 2I I probably am like I probably paint back and forth between thinking like I can't believe anyone listens to, like everyone should listen. It's like a crazy noise in my brain when the reality is like, obviously somewhere in the middle, cause I can acknowledge like there are people that are just not podcast.
Speaker 3For sure Like me.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 3I listen to them with you, yeah, but I was going to say I would be the friend, I would be the friend. That would be like and I actually have said this to my friend Matt well, we listen to Matt's podcast. Yeah, shout out Matt Goodman, because I felt like a jackass.
Speaker 2but I'm also overthinking everything you're not a podcast, I'm not a podcast listener.
Speaker 3I think I spend for like the same reason I don't follow politics and the same reason I mostly don't do anything except work and try to maintain my relationships or what's left of them. But I just listen to so much music and I would always rather be listening to music if left to my own devices, if we're in the car and Kelly puts on a podcast like Doughboys or how Long Gone or Stradio Lab. You listen to a lot of funny podcasts. My brother, Zach Bear, shout out. Zach has played me a bit of Comptown. That's very funny.
Speaker 2Yeah, that's no longer a pod. Oh, it's not.
Speaker 3No, it got major canceled oh sorry, am I going to get canceled now that?
Speaker 2I enjoyed it. No, no, you can refer to it.
Speaker 3Okay, well, sorry, everyone, sorry for your loss. No, I can enjoy a pod and enjoy it thoroughly. We listened to Matt's episode and it was great, but if Matt's listening to this, I feel bad. I haven't listened to all your podcasts, but I just don't listen to podcasts.
Speaker 2Yeah, and it's fair.
Speaker 1I lean in your direction. I don't really listen to podcasts, yeah, and I just think it's. It just struck me as funny where it was. It was like oh yeah, like, yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker 2It's like you could just you could just engage with it. I know it's so true because it is like they can't go to your job, they can't go on your vacation. I guess they could look at your pics if you post which you wouldn't, but and it comes from a great place, right Like people are really interested and they want to know, like, how is it going?
Speaker 1Yeah, but I was just like yeah, Wait.
Speaker 2I feel like someone recently said to me and Josh, I'm not a podcast person. I feel like someone said that to us.
Speaker 3Was it me.
Speaker 2No, oh sorry, you looked at me and you're just like, I'm not a podcast person. No, it was someone.
Speaker 3Yeah, was it me.
Speaker 2Was it one of your relatives?
Speaker 3Obviously not your immediate family, but Give me a time date stamp era. Was it yesterday? Was it a week before, a year day after tomorrow?
Speaker 2I mean, I don't know well it's just an interesting.
Speaker 1Was it a celebrity? That'd be amazing, oh my god, yeah are we talking about pop culture today, so okay, I was kind of like digging into pop culture. I know that was a hard left, but but, I, just thought it was an interesting circumstance where somebody asked me about it and I was like you didn't listen. Yeah, go ahead, take a listen. Let me know what you think.
Speaker 2Well, I was thinking this is like a nothing burger, but it's less of a nothing burger given our history with this couple or this person. Really, hilaria Baldwin was back in the news which john and I, when we shared an office, talked a ton about. Do you know, josh, this whole thing?
Speaker 3is this a baldwin?
Speaker 2so it's alec baldwin alec baldwin's wife wife, um, and obviously he, he shot someone. Yeah, so yes, which is like horrifying and tragic.
Speaker 1It's a whole other episode another can of worms.
When People Don't Listen to Your Podcast
Speaker 2um, but she was in the news for like a less harrowing thing and she was simply just like pretending that she was from spain, when she's like from boston, I think, and she was like an accent. A lot of times people filmed her. She pretended she didn't know the word for cucumber. She was like cucumber and she came under fire because people who knew her were like she's from Boston and it was a whole thing. But she was in the news because Alec Baldwin's daughter I mean this is a nothing burger of a story. But Alec Baldwin's daughter I mean this is a nothing burger of a story but Alec Baldwin's daughter came out and like had this big post about like how much she loves her and respects her and appreciates how she's like helped heal his relationship with Ireland. The daughter who posted this, the one he did refer to as a rude little pig.
Speaker 1I'm sorry. The daughter said that his wife he helped Alec heal the relationship with.
Speaker 2Yeah, and like she brought out his like softer side and helped him get healthier again. She didn't refer to the voicemail, because you guys are familiar with the famous voicemail. Yes yes, are you Josh?
Speaker 3I think so. How many voicemails are there?
Speaker 2It's like that's a great question. So I thought that was so interesting because she like went out of her way to be like this woman is great. Yeah, this is really nothing, but I thought it was funny because you and I had talked a lot about when she was pretending she was from Spain.
Speaker 1When she got into the news because that was like a thing yeah, totally, it was like she was pretending. When she got into the news because that was like a thing yeah, totally, it was like she was pretending.
Speaker 2yeah, something, she isn't and you know it is kind of an interesting question because people were so up in arms about that kind of including us more, because it was funny yeah but it's like and then I think her was her response to that, something to the effect of like her family, that's, she was like my parents like spend a lot of time there, like basically my parents like summer in Spain, okay, so suddenly she like can't speak English.
Speaker 1It doesn't add up really but and then the accent stuff kind of like corrected, not corrected, but it did.
Speaker 2Oh yeah, she went back to normal. Yeah, and they have, like the two of them have, like they have a lot of kids, a bunch of kids yeah. And they have a reality show that I will at some point turn on. I didn't know they had a reality show. Yeah, I've heard it's like pretty tough to watch. It's just their home life.
Speaker 1Yeah, With all those kids and it's like chaos.
Speaker 2But Were filming that when the other incident happened that we referred to, when he was on set and no, no, I I honestly think they went for this idea because, like, I think his career is like in shambles. Okay, um, yeah, I think that I think his career's in shambles and they've had kid after kid after kid okay and you know they live in new york.
Speaker 1Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if, yeah, he was on saturday night live like every weekend, yeah, for like a while and he had a podcast. Oh, he did yes, and I actually liked it. He's got a great voice for a podcast. Totally or just any voiceover work. Yeah, he could. I mean it's just great yeah, he he would also do. I feel like a voiceover, for like the Met or something like that, Like if they showed something on PBS. He would like.
Speaker 2Yeah, I could see that.
Speaker 1He's got a great. He would like voiceover, like and this is directed by so-and-so starring yeah.
Speaker 2I feel like he did that for a while.
Speaker 1Yeah, it sounds great, I mean fixture and he was on 30 rock and yeah, yes, he was so funny on 30 back.
Speaker 2It is really tragic what happened there, because I mean I think by all accounts it was an accident, although there's a lot that's come out that they were like not even close to the proper safety precautions, yeah, which obviously wouldn't have been his fault, right?
Speaker 1Right.
Speaker 2God, it would still be so awful if you accidentally did something and someone died.
Speaker 1Oh.
Speaker 2I can't even imagine.
Speaker 1Trauma. Now I know.
Speaker 2Oh, so I was like looking at some TikToks, but I couldn't make heads or tails of it.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2But Lori did correct we do have to issue a correction that they were engaged since October, so it was more than a month.
Celebrity Gossip and Baldwin Drama
Speaker 1Oh, okay, so that, oh, so, almost a year, yeah, because we're in September, okay.
Speaker 2So I'd be curious if that wedding was starting to get planned and then they canceled it. I don't know, we'll have to keep that in. And then they canceled it. I don't know. Big waste of money, we're gonna stay. Yeah, we'll stay abreast. Keep our ear to the yeah of daily updates ear to the ground.
Speaker 1The ground. Is that what it is? Yeah there we go on that one ear to the ground. On nina dobrev well, now I'm invested because you all talked about it last week. Yeah, yeah it.
Speaker 2Yeah, it is interesting. Like I almost think it's like that stuff is interesting too, because it's like, even if relationships are performative, it's like what are they performing Like those two? It's like they're not like the biggest celebrities, so it's like what by them being like this cute couple? Is it just as simple? This cute couple, is it just as simple? Actually, wait, this is making me think of another potentially performative couple, potentially completely performative couple. But it's like, what's the point of us like seeing that? Is it really just to like let their stars rise and maybe they each have like tequila brands they want to like promote or something and make money from, maybe, but or it's like, are they just a cute couple that people like gravitate toward?
Speaker 2you know, authentic and it's authentic. It's hard to know sometimes when they're kind of random celebrities you're like maybe this is authentic, you know? Um, but recently, like tmz reported that pamela anderson and liam neon Did you know that they're supposedly dating?
Speaker 3Really.
Speaker 2Yes, they were in the Naked Gun remake together. Yeah, so supposedly they're dating and Pamela Anderson's been on like a total renaissance.
Speaker 1Yeah, she doesn't wear makeup. Didn't she do a movie about like being a showgirl?
Speaker 3or something like that. Recently the last showgirl. Wait, isn't that the Taylor Swift album? Did she name it after I was gonna say Barbra Streisand?
Speaker 2Oh my god shout out.
Speaker 3Pamela Anderson Wow.
Speaker 2Maybe I'm mixing up. I think that is the Taylor Swift the last show, girl, or the first show. What was the name of the movie?
Speaker 3Shogun.
Speaker 2We're gonna have to look this up, but it's something like that. And she was in that, she was on like an oscars run okay and they're, so they had been like dating and in the press and it was cute. You know, them both like finding love at this point, especially because his wife died right in that skiing accident, yeah, and then. But he was also like he came on and said some pretty bad stuff and he was kind of like canceled as well.
Speaker 3He said some like racially charged things that were not great um, the last showgirl is the I almost said barbara streisand, again pamela anderson movie yeah, I obviously get mixed up.
Speaker 2And what's the taylor?
Speaker 3swift album oh, I'm not sure will you. It's the life of a showgirl.
Speaker 2The life of a showgirl. Okay, got it Close, close. But so TMZ reported that the relationship was totally just to promote the movie and they were never really together oh okay.
Speaker 2But, then another podcast I was listening to said they've never reported that they were actually together, they've never actually officially endorsed that the two of them, but they've taken a bunch of cute pictures together and they were on watch what happens live together on bravo, and andy cohen was saying we're so happy for you, even though they didn't confirm it in that moment. So it seemed like, but they also didn't deny it. They didn't deny it exactly, didn't deny it, didn't confirm it, but kind of an interesting. I mean honestly that one didn't bother me. I'm like I could see, I could see a production company being like you know, let's kind of make it seem like they're dating even if they're not.
Speaker 1I think a deeper question is do you think Liam Neeson does comedy Well?
Speaker 2I would have to see that movie because I was shocked that he was cast.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2The Leslie Nielsen character.
Speaker 1I feel like he couldn't make any more movies that are basically like Taken remakes, I mean the older guy was able to literally kill everyone in the movie.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1And Taken is a guilty pleasure. I do really like that movie. I don't think I ever watched any of the sequels.
Speaker 2Yeah, I didn't see the sequels either, I just saw the first, which I'm probably not missing much.
Speaker 1I can guess what happens.
Speaker 2Right.
Speaker 1But I'm curious his comedic chops.
Speaker 2I was pretty surprised. I almost think I was like a little bothered seeing him Were you. Well, because, like Leslie Nielsen, is a legend.
Speaker 1But do you think Liam Neeson's so serious that for him to do anything comedic would be funny? Yeah, maybe just that whole idea of it, even if it doesn't.
Speaker 2He doesn't land it every time yeah, it's like I'm trying to think who would we want to replace, like what actual comedian would we want in that slot instead?
Speaker 1oh, you would want an actual comedian, not a dramatic older actor.
Speaker 2Yeah, sorta was leslie nielsen ever dramatic? I feel like he was always comedy airplane he was dramatic he was.
Speaker 3Leslie nielsen was in this like um, because I'm editing the rod serling documentary, and leslie nielsen is in this like 50s movie called the velvet alley about how like hollywood is corrupt. Wow, as a young man I honestly couldn't even tell who he was in the movie. I couldn't recognize him. He was so young. The Velvet Alley about how Hollywood is corrupt. As a young man, I honestly couldn't even tell who he was in the movie. I couldn't recognize him. He was so young. I've watched the movie, I think, twice.
Speaker 1But yeah, that's a drama. Was it in color? Black and white? Okay, I was just curious if he still had white hair. Was he just white hair from 20 years?
Speaker 3ago. Black and white, black and white hair from like 20 black, black and white. Yeah, black and white hair, but do you think that they cast leslie neil's? Do you think they cast liam neeson?
Speaker 2what I think you're. You're shaking the bookshelf. Oh, maybe the bench is a little close to it. Yeah, okay, perfect perfect.
Upcoming Bachelorette Party Adventures
Speaker 3Do you think they cast liam neeson because his name is so similar to Leslie Nielsen? Oh, that's interesting. I'm obsessed with that reason that's been my theory all along it's like an AI director. That's like this makes sense it's like oh, like you can't cast Mel Gibson, I guess you'll cast Mel Brooks yeah that is.
Speaker 2I mean, maybe that's got me to Hollywood still cast Mel Brooks.
Speaker 3Yeah, I would have never thought of that. I got it.
Speaker 2Get me to Hollywood. Yeah, totally, I'm making the right calls.
Speaker 1I feel like Michael Keaton could do maybe a naked gun, he'd be incredible. I love Michael Keaton. He could do that. I know so do I. He could do that.
Speaker 2He's so funny.
Speaker 1And he's of an age that, yeah, totally do it oh yeah, it's like he's probably not doing anything.
Speaker 2I mean, bless his heart yeah, he had a. He came back and yeah, stuff he did and he did bird man he did bird man, he did that movie spotlight yes, he was in Spotlight. I loved that movie yeah he was in.
Speaker 1He actually directed a film recently and starred in it, I think as well. Yeah, he was a hitman who ended up starting to develop like a very aggressive form of dementia. Oh, and so he was forgetting like why he was going on hits and Whoa, that's an interesting concept, yeah um, so yeah, I forget what that was called, but anyway I love it he was in the new beetle juice oh, he was in that right.
Speaker 2Beetle, beetle juice, beetle juice the beetle juice remake, that's right but he doesn't have the right initials.
Speaker 1No, so he couldn't be he couldn't be.
Speaker 2Yeah, that AR director would say next.
Speaker 3MK, you could get Martin King, okay.
Speaker 1Junior junior Next question.
Speaker 2Oh my God. So what's actually new with you in your life?
Speaker 1Nothing.
Speaker 2Nothing.
Speaker 1Yeah, I guess we did see each other two days ago. We did see each other very recently.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1No, I'm trying to think what happened. Well, the post-show party was great. Last time going out to dinner, oh, yes Me.
Speaker 2John and Lori went to dinner and Josh I stayed at home and edited the podcast. Josh ate a lonely bowl of soup.
Speaker 3I ate a nice bowl of sauce.
Speaker 1Wait, did you get any of the leftovers though?
Speaker 3Oh yeah, I've been eating them for breakfast.
Speaker 1Okay, yeah, for days For days.
Speaker 3Yeah Great, we still have a little bit of bread left.
Speaker 2What do?
Speaker 3you call that naan Naan.
Speaker 1It's pita.
Speaker 2Pita.
Speaker 1Sorry I'm going to get canceled, but that just goes back to why they have leftovers, of course it is, you're still eating them.
Speaker 2Yeah, if you're me. Yeah, you love a leftover. Yeah, yeah, I did tell Josh we saw rats.
Speaker 1I wasn't going to bring it up.
Speaker 2We did see them we were on the porch and, as the city of Chicago, there were rats, yeah, and it was pretty harrowing, but everything else was great. It was great to go to dinner.
Speaker 1So the patio was so beautiful. Yeah, it's so nice, and we just happened to be at a table that backed up to like an alley.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1And so we saw Till the rats be dining.
Speaker 2It's a little Remy from Ratatouille. I know John said the rat probably cooked the meal.
Speaker 1Yeah, I don't think Lori was a fan of that guy.
Speaker 3Oh, no, does she not like Ratatouille?
Speaker 1I don't think she likes anything to do with rats, which? Who really does? Right, right, oh God, I was just trying to make light of maybe a dire situation, and I didn't want us to leave, but we stuck it out. We stuck it out.
Speaker 2We made room for the rats and we kept doing it.
Speaker 1We made room, we invited them up.
Speaker 2It was so nice to go and hang out and catch up.
Speaker 1It was so nice and the food was great.
Speaker 2The food is good at that place, for sure, and the ambiance is great on that back porch and I wanted us to go and have you and laurie see it before it closes, because it closes in the fall. I don't think they keep it open in the fall also figured out.
Speaker 2It's called faya, not fia. It's seasonal. I think the back area is seasonal, okay, um, but they've got a ton of tables back there. It's great we're in chicago and you're in on the northeast side are we like promoting this, or are we like, I mean I? Love the restaurant but, yeah, maybe we want to still be able to get a table yeah, it was a great time though.
Speaker 1It was fun. It was really nice. Did you do anything on sunday?
Speaker 2I'm trying to remember what I did on sunday josh and I were pretty productive sunday.
Speaker 3We went to trader joe's yeah that was the crux of our day joe's on sunday.
Speaker 2I mean, everyone knows this, but you're taking your life in your hands in the parking lot it's a zoo it's crazy you get haunted and we like accidentally stole someone's spot and had like a guilt spiral about it.
Speaker 1You went to the one on Lincoln that one right there I mean they just need to knock down the pet supply store next door and make that more of a parking lot.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, yeah, they really should.
Speaker 1Which goes back to the how wise is to have pets. Yeah, just knock them out. Just knock down the store, knock it out.
Speaker 2I almost think it's like, yeah, knock it out and just make that more of a parking lot. Is that what you just said?
Speaker 3Paint paradise.
Speaker 2That is a great idea did you pay paradise that?
Speaker 1is a great idea. Get rid of your pets. Wait for a second. I I just like blacked out for a second. I thought take my idea in real time and say you know what they should do. You know it'd be great idea.
Speaker 2They should do exactly what you just said. No, I was thinking for a second. You might expand the trader joe's, but no that.
Speaker 1Well, they could do that too. That wouldn't solve the parking, but that wouldn't solve the parking issue. But that wouldn't solve the parking issue. Yeah, it would make the shopping experience maybe a little bit less crowded.
Speaker 2Yeah, but my mom, I think, has said that every Trader Joe's has problems with the way they lay out the parking lot.
Speaker 1Do you think they do that to make it look more busy? Is there something to be said about that, where it's like they make it smaller on purpose or they get, and have you know, brick and mortar in places that are smaller so that the parking lot always looks busy and people are like more, like, oh yeah, I got to go there. It's like a cool place.
Speaker 2Oh my God, that's probably it. I've never even thought of that, but yes.
Speaker 1You know, I don't know.
Speaker 2Yeah, it's like everyone and their mom is here. Like you want to be here, it's the place to be secretly, I really want one of those mini trader. Joe's canvas bags I know there was a time where they were really hard to get. People were selling them without like hundreds and thousands of dollars.
Speaker 3John, we have like two of those, no, the mini ones. Oh, I don't know what you're talking.
Speaker 1It's literally like the canvas bags, which are so nice and they shrunk them like a teeny beanie yeah, it's like a little tiny tote it looks exactly.
Speaker 2they were as coveted as a Labooboo and they made like four different colors. I was like.
Speaker 1There's no way I'm going to get my hands on one of these.
Speaker 2Oh yeah.
Speaker 1Who has the time to stand in line and know when they're coming out? Yeah, but it got so popular that then they had people coming in and they were like you can only buy two at a time.
Speaker 2Because people would go to every trader joe's in their area and like, and then resell them. Yeah, and resell them so secretly, I do want one. I kind of want one of those two because actually we saw this cool bag there and I was like, should we get this? And then we didn't end up getting it.
Speaker 1It wasn't those bags, but I'm like they do sell some cool merch, because I have a cooler bag from there as well.
Speaker 2I don't think it was a cooler bag, but I do like those. It was just like a funky, bigger tote that had some like writing on it. It was like yellow and red. It was cool. Did it have like popcorn?
Speaker 3on it.
Speaker 2Nice yeah, maybe that sounds good.
Speaker 3I feel it had a popcorn kind of vibe. Yeah, was it like a farm, maybe Farmland with like popcorn?
Speaker 2I can't really remember. Yeah, I don't know, but I'm going to look it up after this, okay, yeah, I don't know, but I'm going to look it up after this. Okay, and I'll let everyone know. But yeah, that's really all we did. That's what we did, yeah.
Speaker 1We went to the art festival. I think I mentioned that.
Speaker 2Oh yeah, how was it?
Speaker 1It was nice, I mean, the weather was gorgeous on Sunday. Yeah, yes, so we walked over there. It was cool just to see a lot of and it's also like fascinating how far people come from to display their art. Like there's a lot of Midwestern art but then there's just like people from all over the country.
Speaker 2Really yeah.
Speaker 1I love that, which makes sense, right. I mean, chicago is a huge city.
Speaker 2Yeah, Get your stuff out there and you're going to get like weirder cool people that want to buy it.
Speaker 1Yeah, right.
Speaker 2Totally.
Speaker 1So that was fun. And then what did we do? I think we just kind of like relaxed in the afternoon.
Speaker 2Nice, well, I'm like gearing up. Tomorrow I leave for a bachelorette party. It's going to be a lot.
Speaker 3Sun's up, fun's up. No, it's going to be great.
Speaker 2I'm actually really excited. I was thinking that today as I was going to pick up my broken computer.
Speaker 1Tomorrow's Wednesday Well, yeah, I was Tomorrow's.
Speaker 2Wednesday. Well, yeah, this sounds like this is gonna be awesome. It's gonna be all weekend, but it's Wednesday, I know.
Speaker 1It's gonna be, all Wednesday For me.
Speaker 3And the weekend is Wednesday.
Speaker 1Yeah, the weekend is now Wednesday, thursday, friday, saturday and Sunday.
Speaker 2For a bachelor's I love saying that as a 36 year old Instead of like A 21 year old. Well, actually I'm going I should say I'm going early a day to la, spending a night in la, then driving up to palm springs okay so it'll be thursday, friday, saturday, sunday, and then I'm spending a day in san francisco to see my friend's son.
Speaker 2That sounds great, which will be great. I think it'll be so fun. Um, and it's like it's kind of fun to almost be like a guest star to me at a bachelorette, where it's like I know a couple of the people but like not, I don't. It's like not my main group, right, you know, it's obviously the bride's main group, but it kind of feels like low stakes. Then it's like if there's drama, if there's conflict.
Speaker 2I'm sort of like not going to be in the middle of it most you're on the periphery, you can watch it yeah unfold can kind of just like enjoy.
Speaker 1Take notes, report back on the podcast. I will definitely report back on the podcast. You're going to be locked and loaded. You're going to have a hopper full of stories.
Speaker 2Totally, it'll be great. I was already giving Josh like everyone's backstory that I know, or at least how they know the bride and like my connection to each of them Because I have met them all. But yeah, it's fun, it's. I think this is the most fun kind of group trip, because I do. We talked about this on a pod when Josh and I did a solo one. Group trips can have a lot of dynamics, a lot Food.
Speaker 1Food, like, I think, just decision making in general.
Speaker 2Yeah, all the decisions are like, precarious, and what do you want to do? What do you want to?
Speaker 1do Right.
Speaker 2What do you want to do? What do you?
Speaker 1want to do right, what do you want?
Speaker 2and then there's somebody who really knows what they want to do. Yeah, it's like a little bit inflexible well, it's like I almost think, I feel like it's like a post-covid thing where, like all of us, including myself, have maybe gotten a little more like I want to do what I want to do because we like had to. Maybe maybe I don't know like.
Speaker 2I almost feel like maybe it comes with age too yeah, with age for sure, and like getting people together and on the same page like I remember trying to get people together after covet felt like is anyone ever gonna want to do this? It's gotten way better and maybe it'll take like another 10 years for it to feel like all the way back, but it is interesting, like I'll be curious how it all goes. And I a long, long time ago I actually did go to palm springs with a friend's uncle, like to stay with a friend's uncle who lived there, but I haven't been in so long so I'm like I'll be curious what even like the vibes there are, like I think it'll be right. I'll have so many stories.
Speaker 1I'm excited how many bags are packing? I am gonna like pack and check a full bag yeah, you are well, because I'm going for yeah, going for it's like wednesday night one, but then you'll be easy breezy once you get through security.
Speaker 2Yeah yes, exactly, it'll be easy breezy I'll be able to bring like. Well, also, because you get a lot of bachelorettes, you get kind of like a dress code, so like specific things I had to bring, and so it's like I want to have all that and have all my stuff so I'll easily be able to pack everything. I actually thought about listen to this lameness. I thought about bringing my computer and like doing a bit of work on the plane. Is that crazy? I know that is like not pretty bit of work on the plane.
Speaker 3Is that crazy? What I know that is like not party vibes, Email people on the Wise Mind. Happy hour waiting list.
Speaker 2Well, it's like I was thinking about doing a couple of those emails you are a working professional. I know, and it is a Wednesday.
Speaker 1Yeah, and it is a Wednesday which most people don't work because that's apparently the weekend now, so you know you wouldn't be working on the weekend apparently the weekend now, so you know you wouldn't be working on the weekend.
Speaker 2I know something about it feels like what do I think I'm like steve jobs, like working on the plane like I can't possibly I know, I know and it's like I mean maybe I will bring it. It's heavy, so I'm like that's the other issue.
Speaker 1Well, that's the only reason you wouldn't bring.
Speaker 2It is like I gotta get an ipad thing to yeah, do you have?
Speaker 1an ipad? An ipad? Yeah, I don't, but my kids do, your kids do yeah, and it's really light right it's very light and you could probably do, you know, because you can have those like foldable keyboards, those really little ones that could. Just you could clip right onto it, um, so that would probably be useful are they really? Expensive. We um when we got, when we bought them, they were like refurbished, like a year old version of them or something like that, and I think they were like.
Speaker 2I think it was like 300 maybe okay, I mean I just paid that to fix my computer I think.
Speaker 1But I mean, if you're they, the battery life has been great on them and you know my kids are just like streaming stuff. My oldest son was doing some homework on it for a while, but they've been very functional and we haven't had any problems with it. They still hold a charge really well. So I mean I'm okay kind of on board with it. I can't speak to like looking at it and doing like work emails or something like that. I don't know what that would be like, but I know I'm curious, but the product?
Speaker 2itself has been very useful okay, it's not gonna work for this trip, but I may in the future, so I can do work and travel. Do it be so nice?
Speaker 3so you can do psychology, so I can do psychology, do therapy on the go do therapy with anyone on the plane who? Needs it.
Speaker 1I pop it in the cockpit.
Speaker 2Just have your confidential notes out there, so we can blog about them.
Speaker 3Show everyone your clients. Yeah, just have your client list out there.
Speaker 2No, I would never on the plane. I would never, never, just show the pilot.
Speaker 3Be reasonable.
Introduction to Self-Compassion
Speaker 2I just enter the pilot as a patient, just like you know, in case they need a little therapy. But yeah, know that's a joke, be reasonable. I just enter the pilot as a patient, just like you know, in case, in case they need a little therapy. But yeah, that's all that's going on, so maybe maybe this is a good time to shift. Yeah, so our topic today is self-compassion.
Speaker 1Oh, yeah, go for it sorry josh.
Speaker 2josh has to take a quick bathroom break, but we'll keep going. We'll keep going, yeah.
Speaker 1We need you so much. You know, this is something that when you're doing group therapy, I feel like when you bring this up in the room, there is a little bit of that response. I know you were kind of kidding about the response of like yeah, but. I think there is a little hush that kind of falls over the crowd.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1And I think there's a lot of reasons for it. One of them, though, is I think people really feel at a loss of how to engage with yeah, being loving and nurturing and kind to themselves yeah, like how do you know?
Speaker 2it's like, oh, that's all well and good to like love yourself, right, but how the hell do I do that?
Speaker 1yeah, and I think some of the responses too are kind of like yeah, I roll. Oh, yeah, exactly totally like a tony rob Robbins kind of motivational.
Speaker 2Right, what was Tony Robbins' whole thing of like? You got this kind of.
Speaker 1Yeah, I thought he was like a motivational speaker. No, totally, but I never really listened to him speak. Neither did I, so maybe I shouldn't refer to him.
Speaker 2No, I'd be curious because he does have that vibe of just like go after it. You got this Like take a cold shower in the morning and hit the ground.
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah, like just love yourself and do it and that's self-compassion. Well, why are you lazy about it? Just do it yeah, yeah, totally.
Speaker 2Um, yeah, well, I think and and sometimes it's like I notice in my own practice like I'll even sometimes like defend against that response, like before I even get it. You know of like I know this might sound kind of cheesy, but go with me on this. It's actually like a practice which we'll get into, but it is a more concrete thing, mm-hmm, you know it is actually something you can do and you know it does depend a lot on giving over to it both conceptually and then doing the practice.
Speaker 1Yeah, there's a lot of commitment to it and I think that's where I try to bring in a little bit more of that act lens and yeah, because sometimes people will say, okay, I'm gonna try to do self-compete and this was something that in the fellowship I was in, I really appreciated a lot of the clinicians. Whenever somebody would say, you know, whenever they would challenge us as therapists, like, try something in the therapy space, yeah, um, they wouldn't use the word try they, and if we said, yeah, maybe I'll try that in the next session, they'd be like what would it be like for you to say I'm going to commit to that?
Speaker 1yeah and like I'm going to commit to being kind to myself or like you know. So really like putting the onus on people and and let's not try this, let's do it, let's just yeah try to really push forward with it, but I even sometimes read like package it as let's just talk about how you're relating to yourself.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1And like let's just see what that looks like. Yeah, I love that and you can kind of get in the back door a little bit and kind of see oh so you're really mean to yourself. Right, yeah, like you're really hypercritical of yourself, yeah, and that could be an avenue for them, building more awareness to how much of compassion is lacking. And then there's maybe a little bit more buy-in into the yeah idea of it, but that's just one no, that's so true.
Speaker 2I actually was thinking similarly. I like that you almost went to like kind of neutral right like let's even just get a or get a whatever, take a temperature, get a baseline. What? How do you relate to yourself? And because I even think sometimes like going the opposite or yeah, to a neutral place helps. You know where it's like. Okay, if you think self-compassion is cheesy, let's look at the opposite and how that's working to criticize yourself, to push against yourself in some way or other.
Speaker 2Or yeah, it's like maybe you don't even know how you actually relate to yourself, because a lot of people don't. I mean, I, in a given day, I'm not like totally conscious at all moments of how I'm relating to myself. Trance, the trance. Okay, which we'll talk about the trance of unworthiness.
Speaker 2So, yeah and this is a Tara Brach concept, who's like an amazing therapist and speaker and yeah, like not knowing being in this, like trance, especially if you are relating to yourself in a critical kind of resisting way.
Speaker 2You get in this trance with it where you're not aware of it and you're beating yourself up or judging yourself or in some way she would call it like shooting a second arrow at yourself. And for me, like I'll most notice how I'm relating to myself Usually if, like, a trigger happens, like something activating happens and probably because I'm a therapist too, like I can tune into this awareness a little more, like what's? I mean, here's what's going on outside of me, what's going on inside of me, given that this just happened, how is it showing up in my body, in my mind? You know, how am I relating to myself? So, yeah, maybe this, maybe we want to invoke our special ladies who, both kristen neff and tara brock, who talk a lot, famously, a lot about self-compassion and both have concrete practices that are like pretty well researched for how to create some inner ease.
Speaker 2So why don't do you want to start with Ms Kristen Neff? Yeah, Dr Neff.
Speaker 1Yeah yeah, she has a lot of research and she the both of them have great websites and TED talks, so if people are looking for more information. But one of the things that's interesting about Kristen Neff we won't go too much into it is that idea that when we, you know, experience something you know negative, whatever that is, or judge it as negative, whether it's an emotion or something like that, we become, you know, kind of highly critical and we go into like these fight, flight or freeze type of of responses which might not be the most effective for us yeah um, in those moments and that's all about like survival and fight, flight or freeze is really important like we need that response yeah, um and we might not throw ourselves into that response as much as we are when we're attacking ourselves or when we feel like something, um, like an emotion or a thought, or even something external, like somebody's comment, like you know, then throws us into like we're fighting with ourselves, right?
Speaker 1So fighting with ourselves would be like the negative self talk. I think the freeze response for her would be more of like rumination and we're just kind of like yeah. And then the flea would be. We're isolating and we're like not around other people.
Speaker 1And then the flea would be. We're isolating and we're like, not around other people. So her research, and the research that she synthesizes in her book, talks about how we can kind of, in those moments, instead of going to the fight, flight or freeze, offset it with because we're mammals this caregiving system, this mammalian caregiving system.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1Which then creates this sense of safety and warmth, so that we can thrive in those moments and be more effective? Yeah, which then creates this sense of safety and warmth so that we can thrive in those moments and be more effective.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1And so she teases apart this idea that, like self-compassion, is not self-pity, yes, or self-indulgence, because I think some people get confused with that, maybe not as much of the self-pity, but I think the clients I've worked with definitely the indulgence.
Speaker 2Yes.
Speaker 1I think people sometimes think well, self-compassion, I can just do whatever I want. Then.
Speaker 2Right, I'll eat all the ice cream in the freezer. Exactly, yeah.
Speaker 1Or it's like I won't do anything the whole day. I don't have to do anything.
Speaker 2Yes.
Speaker 1That's my off day, yes, and I think she really frames it nicely, as you want to be. I think her quote is like happy and healthy in both the short and the long term, yeah, and indulgence is just about short term.
Speaker 3Right, you know Comfort.
Speaker 1Exactly.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Kristen Neff's Approach to Self-Compassion
Speaker 1So the last thing I'll say is she kind of has this like three part approach to self-compassion, which is mindfulness, which we've talked a lot about here and we will continue to talk about yeah, and it's that we're human and that we're imperfect.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1And that could be isolating, because we could say you would never understand me, Kelly, because I'm so imperfect. But, actually, if we were vulnerable in that, we could like connect on that. Yeah, like our imperfections could actually bring us together. And then just the act of self-kindness, like how do we treat ourselves?
Speaker 2Yeah, so that was long-winded. No, I love that, I love that, I love that and I do love that she really addresses that idea of you know, if I'm kind to myself like I won't amount to anything, I won't ever push myself, I'll always just kind of like give in and indulge.
Speaker 1Yeah, that's important because people don't want to do self-compassion because they feel like they'll lose motivation.
Speaker 2Yeah, totally. And yeah like compassion is different than that comfort. I always, and maybe she even talks about this. I probably stole this from her on some level, but you know, like self-compassion is self-love and self-respect. That's a big piece of it. So it's like of course you can like have ice cream and rest and do things that you might call indulgent, but if there's a genuine need there and there's a sense of respect for the self, I don't have a lot of worry with like that being too much.
Speaker 1I think the self can regulate that if you're, if you're conscious, and that's why that mindfulness piece is so important be mindful of some of the like icky, like self-talk or my, or even the shadow, like we talked about, like I want to be compassionate but I don't want to work on that stuff and it's like it kind of doesn't work that way we kind of have to be mindful and be in that a little bit in order to know what to offer ourselves yeah and that's where rain comes in with tara brock right where it's like in order to nourish or nurture which you'll talk more about like we have to be able to sit in that more.
Speaker 2Yes, yeah, so okay. And Tara Brock it's interesting because I actually once kind of compiled research from both of them and what was so funny is that I found them citing each other constantly in their research on self-compassion, each other constantly in their research on self-compassion. Really, so they're super connected. Yeah, like both like ideologically they happen to be connected and they like know about each other and refer to each other. So, tara brock, I think kristen neff takes a very neuroscientific lens of it and all her research is in more of the science realm. Tara brock is a little bit more of the buddhist, spiritual lens, but truly they do cite each other a bunch and they're both like very reliable and I like probably like my personality is a little more like biased toward the Buddhist and that sort of mindset, so I gravitate a little bit more toward Tara Brock. But they're both so great.
Speaker 2And Tara Brock talks a lot about how and you mentioned this with the trance of unworthiness you know, when you're like going about your life and something painful happens, there's this concept of like first arrowing and second arrowing Like when something painful happens, that's like a first arrow hitting you and what you actually control is what happens next. So do you shoot yourself with a second arrow, which could be a million things. It could be negative self-talk and self-criticism. It could be drinking.
Speaker 3It could be.
Speaker 2You know, binging. It could be. I mean, it could be really anything and anything that you notice is out of line with your own values, um, to use like an act concept, and you know that's an option. Right, that's something you can do. That's something we've all done as human beings that are imperfect. And when you do that, when you shoot yourself with that second arrow, you can often now this is where, because I haven't, like, taught this in group, I get, I forget if, like, it's the chicken or the egg, right. Does the second arrow like lull you into that trance or do you, by being in a trance, end up doing the second arrowing? Or is it a little bit of both? I think it's probably both, both Okay. So you shoot that second arrow and then you get in this trance of unworthiness. You start to take things personally instead of maybe having this more accepting, open lens. Take things personally. What are the other two pieces?
Speaker 1um, I know one of them is reactivity. Reactivity you're like, almost like propelled into, like this reactive state, instead of being more open, flexible, responding yes, and the reactivity could be, you engage in more behaviors to deal with whatever that initial arrow was or that pain, to either numb it out or, you know which moves you further away from your values.
Speaker 2Right totally, because, right, if you're hit with a pain right Like you get feedback from your boss, or someone cuts you off in traffic or your kid, you know, disobeys you or whatever you know, if you shoot yourself with a second arrow, so to speak, there's more pain, right, even if that's a way to cope, it's like there's going to be more pain and then often more arrows are needed to manage that, and it's this like you get in this trance. So this other option when you're hit with that first arrow, that first pain, that event that you don't control, that just kind of befalls you, you have this opportunity to practice self-compassion, and for Tara Brock, what that means is following this RAIN acronym R-A-I-N. And so the first piece, and this is the part of it that I use the most in my practice. I don't usually go into describing the trance anymore, but it is. I like to go back to it, but-.
Speaker 1But I think the I think it is important though, though, even if you're not naming it, like you had mentioned before, I like what you were saying, like bringing that awareness to like people don't even realize that they're. So, even if you don't go through the parts, I think it's important to be like. Are you even, are we even conscious of how often we're going to this?
Speaker 2place. Yes, are you even noticing that this is happening?
Speaker 1and like like you said, is that working? Yeah, Like what would it look like the other?
Speaker 2way Right.
Speaker 1And that's where the right rain comes in.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, like and this is kind of actually an internal family systems idea it's like, let's say, your first arrow is loneliness and so you reach for alcohol or drugs and then you often feel more lonely, you know, because it's like this numbing of feeling and it often like isolates you from your support system and you know you beget the very things you're trying to protect against, often with the second arrowing. So this other option, this RAIN acronym, you know you want to. You want to, I mean you want to place it in wherever you can but, ideally right when the first arrow happens.
Speaker 2Whatever that pain is, you want to the R being, recognize it. So just recognize that. There's like feeling here, there's a response happening and you want to take some time to allow space for it. I usually have clients like find it in the body, Like where do you notice feeling? You know your boss sent you this email. I'll even have them. Sometimes you're picturing yourself reading it.
Speaker 2Notice Where's feeling, Recognize it where it is and as, like Kristen Neff would say, it's kind of like a friendly scientist, like you're kind of nodding at it. Recognize it, allow it, make some space in the body for this, let go of any resistance to it and then investigate it. And this I think you can do in different ways. I've probably morphed this a little bit into a parts work thing, where you kind of talk with this part of you, Basically asking this part of you do you need to share anything? Is there something you need from me? This pain and then, and being either nurture or nourish, Like give that part of you some version of what it's needing, what it's asking for, some active gesture of care toward that part. If you get a clear direction with it from the part itself, go for it, If not just like general love and care, and it's like that active piece right Like send it that energy or that mammalian caregiving system right, it's like mammals with their young.
Speaker 2They like hold them gently and they rock them when they're upset. There's this loving, soft, like pull closer and soothe kind of instinct which helps, which actually it doesn't create like an overindulgent young. What did in the mammalian caregiving system? What it does is actually helps them internalize that and then be strong, Same for us as adults. If we give that to real practice of RAIN with them, it has power to it. I think so People can feel that energy and I think the most powerful piece to your point is just the noticing Right Like, oh, this is going on, how am I engaging with this?
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2I've even done it with a lot of people with physical pain.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2Like sciatica, you know, headache, truly, things where they're like what's a meditation going to do, and it's like incredibly powerful, because it's like releasing all of the resistance to it.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2Creates so much more ease.
Speaker 1I think it can also be disorienting to people in that investigate part of it, because we are not asking why it's there yeah like we're not searching for the why in that moment yeah and I think a lot of people that I work with want to know but why is this pain here, or why is it? Why isn't it going? Yeah, why is it me, why a lot of, just why's that actually make people more, maybe critical?
Speaker 1Yeah, because they answer that with whatever core beliefs they have or whatever shadow parts, and they say, well, it's happening to me because I'm a fuck up or I'm a you know. So I think the investigate is also a relearning of how do we sit with this without our mind wanting to make like a A plus B equal C type of sense of it. It's more of no, we're just like being with it and relearning how to. We don't need to know why in order to offer ourselves compassion. I mean, it'd be nice to know the why. It's great, but maybe in this moment that's not the work we're doing. It's how can we just love ourselves and be there for ourselves in this moment.
Speaker 1Totally, yeah, it's so true, because the why also has almost like an underpinning of deserving yeah. Deservedness or something like that. Yeah.
Tara Brach and the RAIN Method
Speaker 2Well, especially because so rarely can you actually get to why am I having? This situation now Right, and then we often fill it in with like some core belief instead. Yeah, and you know, what's funny is like I will even say to clients sometimes like sometimes even knowing the why doesn't actually give you any healing oh yeah, I think our minds think it's gonna.
Speaker 1I think that's such a great point. I think a lot of times we tell ourselves the narrative if we knew the, why we wouldn't be in the situation we're in, and a lot of times that's such a great point. I I think a lot of times we tell ourselves the narrative if we knew the, why we wouldn't be in the situation we're in, and a lot of times that's not the case at all yeah, like we're still in this situation, even if I know how I got here. I'm still here right now totally there is.
Speaker 1There is a meditation. I can't remember if it was, maybe either Tara Brocker or Kristen Neff, but I remember the one line in it was and it's stuck with me for so long like whatever it is, it's already here.
Speaker 2Let me feel it yes, yeah, and that that to me. I go back to that a lot because my mind does want to figure it out a lot of times it's like well, whatever it is like I'm here, it's, and it's here with me and and I just need to be with it or feel it.
Speaker 2Yeah, totally I love that that's hard to. Yeah, it's like I mean, this is so true too with like trauma, like you could understand your trauma and have insight into it, which I truly believe is powerful. But and not be the whole picture. There has to be like well, now that you have that knowing, how are you relating? Does it change the relating? If it does, great, but if it doesn't, then there's more work there, there's more self-compassion.
Speaker 2Yeah, I remember explaining this once, this concept once, to my dad, and we were talking about like you know, like what it means, because I think he was asking me, like what you know in your therapy groups, like what are you actually like doing? Is it like they just talk? And it was something like that. We were like at dinner together this was a long time ago and I was like well, today we talked about self-compassion and he was like so, and he might have the lawyer. And he was talking about like, like, if I had a case and like it didn't go well, instead of like beating myself up, would it be like, okay, you got this, you can do better next time? And I was like, actually, it's a little bit more like, oh, wow, I a case, isn't that such a hard thing for someone to go through?
Speaker 1Can.
Speaker 2I feel what I feel about this. And he was. I will give him credit. He was like wow, I've never thought of that and like very few people think of that, like take a second here, you don't actually even have to be better, you can actually just care for the person who just lost something. Right, because doesn't that hurt to lose something or to fail at something which is human?
Speaker 1yeah, and I think that's where trance gets tricky a little bit, because the reactivity isn't always a behavior that's so blatantly like against our values. The reactivity could be.
Speaker 1Well, I gotta fix it I just gotta like yeah I just to do better the next time and I got to push myself and I got to try harder, right, like that's the reactivity also. So that can be tough because that's a very that can be a very praised attitude to have in a lot of contexts where it's like, wow, this person, they're unflappable or whatever. Right, like they just pick themselves up and they just keep going. They're unflappable or whatever right, like they just pick themselves up and they just keep going. And I think that can be a radical concept for somebody to be like oh, that's actually a little bit of a trance that I'm in or a little bit of a reactivity, and could we just sit with, let's not move to the next thing or push ourselves.
Speaker 1And yeah, like, that example with your dad is great of like. Isn't it hard to? Lose a case. You put all this effort in Totally of like, isn't it hard to, yeah, lose a case. You put all this effort in totally and and time and energy and feelings and all of that and, yeah, that's yeah, like feel with yourself.
Speaker 2it's really hard, yeah, totally, totally, and so so few people think of it, but it is really powerful and I always find like and I don't always get everyone on board with this, but it's like, to me it's like trading that like kind of like self-esteem right, like I'm good and I'm good and I've like done these good things and I've achieved the thing, for, like, I'm deeply worthy and allowed to have every human experience out there and care for myself in it. To To me, I'm like it's so much more transcendent and it doesn't mean you're not going to like challenge yourself and grow and have these rich experiences. It's just less like the worthiness is weighted on them, that worth at birth instead, and actually like feeling painful feelings with yourself can actually like it almost like awakens that inner knowing of like, oh yeah, I always was worthy.
Speaker 2And this is just a difficult moment.
Speaker 1Yeah, questions about like well are you eating breakfast, are you actually taking a lunch?
Speaker 1or if you're at work, right, because those are ways you can show yourself kindness by actually engaging with your needs and like, let's not even think about the way you're talking to yourself. Maybe that's later down the line. Let's just think of like behaviors you're engaging in. Are you restricting, withholding, like things that you deserve or you're worthy of as a human? Yeah, so I think it doesn't have to just be the relationship verbally or cognitively with ourself. It can also be the behaviors that we're engaging in yeah, like those gestures or like basic self-care, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2Are you like sleeping? Are you giving yourself space?
Speaker 1What you need. Yeah, and another barrier is people are like well, I don't feel loving towards myself, yeah.
Speaker 1So some people want to wait for it to like click where. It's like, well, once I feel, yeah, better about myself, or that I do feel loving towards myself, then I'll engage in self-compassion. And it's like we're not waiting for that, we're committing to it and maybe that will ease and the warmth might come after that or your experience might change. Yeah, totally. But we're not waiting for that to come Right, because we're going to be waiting a long time, right.
Speaker 2So let's engage in this stuff first try it on, and then the feelings may come after that, which that can be hard to sell too, but totally yeah, sometimes it's like if I really get stuck with that, I'll almost do rain with that stuck part, sort of like let's recognize this like part that doesn't want to give up yeah let's allow it and let it tell us why it's, why it feels shitty about you instead of compassionate, and often that can like help a bit.
Speaker 2But you're right, it's like it is a practice, it's a way of like sending energy to yourself and yeah, it's like even I say the word energy. Some people are like, oh, we're getting woo woo, but it's like, it's really like you're sending energy to yourself, no matter what. Yeah, you're in one way or another, so it's like first just notice. Yeah, is it like this, like resisting kind of tight energy?
Speaker 1but the same people who think it's woo-woo towards the self don't think it's woo-woo a lot of the times externally towards others.
Speaker 2Yeah, yes.
Speaker 1So true. So it's like, okay, this is woo-woo, but then it's woo-woo for you to send your energy of like love towards your kid. Then Is that what?
Speaker 1you're telling me yeah, yes, and of course somebody's going to be like well, no, right, and of course somebody's going to be like, well, no, and it's like, okay, well, you're special, like you're, you know you could have a little bit of a reverence there too, if you have a rapport with that person to be like, okay, well, you do these things all the time externally to the people you care about and somehow that's okay. But when it comes to you, that's different.
Speaker 2You're undeserving. What is that? Yeah, you're undeserving of it, or like you're too good for it or something. Right, right, yeah, yeah, it's true.
Speaker 3Do you think that's like a distinctly American thing, or is it a universal thing? Oh, that's interesting.
Speaker 2I bet you the resistance to it is strong here than in other places. I think there are many other cultures where the idea is like buck up. I mean maybe not like European, like Western European cultures as much.
Speaker 1but Well, and I wonder too if, in a certain context, if a culture is more collectivistic, this may be seen as very indulgent. Yeah totally or like, very like, almost selfish in a way. So I wonder, I don't know, that's. That's a good question. Yeah, it kind of depends.
Speaker 2I know I'm picturing like children in china who have to go to school like 19 days a week and stuff like that. I'm like I wonder how this would go over, but you never know. Also, like there's a buddhist part of that population and I'd be curious.
Speaker 3Go to school 19 days a week, but be kind to yourself.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 3Did you say 19 days a week? Yeah, that's so many days, so many days.
Speaker 1No Wednesday weekend.
Speaker 2Yeah, they have 19-day weeks.
Speaker 1But I mean so much of, and Tara Brach is a practicing Buddhist, so much of her. I think Radical, radical acceptance was her first book yes comes from lived experience and you know her just journey throughout her life and as a buddhist. I mean if these print, yeah, I mean if second arrowing is there's so many buddhists out there that if second arrowing is a concept. I mean this must be a struggle for many people, cross-culturally totally of getting into that.
Speaker 1I mean, trance is kind of her. Is it her thing, or is that a buddhist concept too?
Speaker 2that is a buddhist concept.
Speaker 1Yeah, so I mean yeah this. This is like a struggle yeah but I do think the cross-cultural thing is interesting. I wonder if there are cultures that or countries that are just more loving to the self.
Speaker 2Yeah to self.
Speaker 1And how you would measure that. That would be interesting yeah.
Speaker 2It's definitely not Judeo-Christian cultures. Right, it's a lot of rejection of self or like perfecting of self, you know, like whip it into shape and you know what's funny is like Buddhist doctrine, judeo-christian doctrine. The goal is the same, which is like love and like love to the community, love at large, and just in like Judeo-Christian cultures. It's like perfect yourself and sacrifice self to give love. And in Buddhism the belief is like the fountain of that love starts here. So when you honor the self and show love to the self, it pours out naturally. It isn't even effortful to be loving and accepting of others and I've found like to Tara Brach's philosophy in practice that holds like. Philosophy in practice that holds like when I especially like we talked about shadow last episode like when I can get in touch with my shadows and really show love to those parts of myself.
Speaker 2If I see those in other people, I have this organic sense of like acceptance and truly like love for the person, especially if I see them struggling with it, like it's okay, yeah, I have that part, you have that part. I don't expect you to be perfect and that's so felt right. And if there's a part of myself I'm rejection rejecting, I see someone else living it out, I'm often like tight and angry and you should be perfect.
Speaker 1There's the common, some of the common humanity threads right Of like the imperfection is something that resonates with all of us.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1And do we lean into owning that and being vulnerable in that, Because that could actually be really healing and connecting with the right people? I guess yeah. And support and certainly it could backfire we could share our imperfections or be vulnerable about that right and people might reject us for it yeah, totally. So that's even like a commitment to try to remember our humanity.
Speaker 2Yeah. Well, I mean, I could talk about self-compassion forever. I love it yeah.
Speaker 1It's a big topic. Yeah, and it's something that I think us included myself included need to practice it more than we're doing.
Speaker 2Yeah, and it really like I feel like it comes up in all modalities of therapy. It's also kind of like trending, but with good reason. It's in all like in almost like every ceu I'm in, like continuing education course. It's like there'll be some slide. That's like well, something that also helps with this is self-compassion. That's like with every issue and every approach yeah there's some self-compassion practice, whether it's with a part or it's in emdr. Imagine yourself giving compassion and you kind of work that into the sets and yeah, it's huge.
Speaker 1I think I've mentioned this probably to you, maybe not on the podcast before, but I went to continuing education and the woman who was leading it was, you know, part of your tribe LCSW, um 35, 40 years in the field. She was also a trained um yoga instructor and it just was like so much life, energy and the CEU was on um self-compassion and trauma and I just remember her talking about trance and somebody was like, well, you know how do you engage? Like if you notice yourself in trance and she's just like you know what I do, I just put my hand up and I say you know what inner critic I hear you Not right now.
Speaker 1And I was like that, like the room there, I hear you not right now, like I'm living my life, I'm busy like, yeah, I'm gonna commit to like the things that are important to me, and I just she said it with such like she didn't even have to think about it. It's like I knew she was practicing that on a regular and that just worked for her she just like found something that worked for her and it was short, and sweet and simple.
Speaker 1but she put the hand up and she was like I hear you Not right now.
Speaker 2Yeah, and I think that's that's great, it's amazing because it's so simple. Yeah, but it both like honors, this resisting peace. Yes, and you rise above it, like I got this Right.
Speaker 1I hear you, I got this, I always and I'm not going to fight you, I'm not going to say go away. It's like I hear you, just not right now.
Speaker 2Not right now. I'm doing something. I don't need this protection. Yeah, yes, I will find that often with clients if they can find their own wording for something like that, and often it is some version of like I got this. Yeah, the wise mind, I got this, thank you, thank you. Thank you for stepping up.
Speaker 1I got this, yeah, thank you for your contribution.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like I almost picture like and you know this from having two kids like if, like, an elder sibling is trying to like step in and like parent the younger one. Thank you, oh, I've got this Totally. You know, leave the parenting to me, leave the parenting to the wise mind.
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah, it's so great I love that, but anyway, that was just that's. That has you know those nuggets that you hear yes from other therapists and other things, and that is something that has just that's burned in my brain just yeah do that totally god we should do.
Speaker 2That makes me think we should do a podcast episode on like all of our favorite nuggets from like, ceos and things like that, that that have like stuck in our brain. I wish.
Speaker 1I could remember the name of the guy who came. I think you and I were, I don't think it was, maybe it was Chicago, when we were working together. Anyway, I remember him saying, and this is something that was like oh yeah, I knew this, but the way he said it was just like so profound. He was talking about substance use and addiction and I remember him being like that one guy he would yeah I can't remember so magnetic, but he was great and I remember him being like oh yeah, you can't selectively numb your feelings, and I just remember the way he said that.
Speaker 2He said it like he was like a preacher on a mountaintop and I was like, oh right, like you cannot, you can't selectively numb.
Speaker 1You're numbing everything in your life. When you're using a substance right, like, yes, you're kind of morphing it and having maybe more euphoric feelings in certain ways, but it's all distorted and you're not really numbing. You can't just numb the bad, you know, and it was just such a you can't selectively numb. He was a great speaker. Oh my God, that was a nugget that I want to find.
Speaker 2I've, like, searched the internet for that guy, but I don't know his name he was so it's almost one of those where you're like did that really happen? Like it was so moving. I was changed after that.
Speaker 2He also like talked about eminem yeah he was like how eminem got clean and sober and he was like every album was like I hate my father, I hate my father, I hate my father, I hate my father. He gets sober and then it's. I hate my father, I hate my father, I hate my father, I hate my father. He gets sober and then it's like I am my father. Yeah, and like I have this realization of, like I have embodied all of this.
Speaker 1And he was dropping lyrics the whole time? Yes, Because he was like you know what?
Speaker 2kids are gonna. Yeah, drake, what did he say? I think Casey yes, I remember that she was the one who answered yeah, he just says I go from 0 to 100. She goes real quick.
Speaker 1Yeah, and she was like Drake and he was like you. Gotta know what the kids are you know. Yeah, you gotta be in, you gotta be in it, you gotta know because that's the way they're gonna talk in your sessions and I just that was great that was so great.
Speaker 2Yeah, I know I want to like think. Or there was a woman we had once who came and talked about it was remember that was like that full sheer attachment program where people would go for a whole year to work on personality disorders and she I always go back to her saying, like the number one predictor of success in therapy is relationship with your therapist, like when all else fails remember this yeah, I've gone back to that so much where it's like like trust that this piece is so important to create that.
Speaker 1Yeah we had that team that came. Were you there when they were talking about grief and law? Their whole practice was on grief. Yes, that was an astounding.
Speaker 2That was great and I've used stuff from that to this day. Yeah, actually, my therapist just recommended a book on grief to me, because my therapist has previously did a lot of grief work. She was saying she does a little bit less now, but she said the best book she ever read on grief oh god, I don't know where my phone is, um, but it's a ya like chapter book. Oh, really, do you isn't? Do you see my phone, josh?
Speaker 3uh, yeah, it's in.
Speaker 2It's in the bathroom oh of course of course, but I want to shout it out because I'm gonna read it. But she said it's like so great and she found it like the most moving, and her clients have too.
Speaker 1Well, while you're getting that, if people are looking for more information on Tara Brock or Kristen Neff, definitely just type them into the Google machine. They got great books. If you want to go to the source material, definitely read the books. But their websites are great too, and they have a lot of talks. They have meditations too. If you want to engage in more self-compassion, like meditation.
Speaker 2Yeah, on Insight Timer, I know Tara Brock has a bunch and I think Tara Brock now has a podcast. I'm pretty sure.
Cultural Perspectives on Self-Compassion
Speaker 1She should, if she doesn't already. And I think she does a meditation maybe on each episode and she wrote Radical Acceptance, but then I think she also wrote Radical Compassion. I think, yes, yeah, that was her more recent one. It was her more recent one, yeah, yeah, so great.
Speaker 2The book is called the Care and Feeding of a Pet Black Hole. Oh, that's supposed to be so good, so I'm going to read it. I'll report back.
Speaker 1Yeah, maybe if it's so great, we'll both read it. Well, I'm going to look on the Chicago Public Library and see if I can reserve it. Yeah, totally, All right. Okay, how wise is your question? How wise is it to iron your clothing?
Speaker 2Okay, and iron, or like steam, because I never really iron. Right, see, therein lies like, but steam has a similar effect. Okay, okay, well, because I wonder if I won't be able to answer really.
Speaker 1Well, you are answering.
Speaker 2Like how is it to press your clothing?
Speaker 3We're differentiating. I don't know.
Speaker 2Yeah, do you have strong?
Speaker 3feelings about the difference between the two. I don't.
Speaker 1I just think there was a part of my life where I was very pro oh really, oh, oh, oh really. Oh, oh.
Speaker 2Oh, my God Do tell.
Speaker 1There was. I. We'll just put it this way I was the only person on my freshman dorm, like Love it Level, that had an iron and an ironing board.
Speaker 2Oh my God, I used to iron my t-shirts.
Speaker 1Wow, because they didn't want them wrinkled.
Speaker 2Yeah, shirts, wow, because they didn't want them wrinkled.
Speaker 1Yeah, so where did you learn that like your mom? Oh, yeah, big iron household, but it wasn't that my mom like put it on me. I wanted to learn like I would watch her do it and I'd be like man that looks good I mean, it definitely can make you look, I wanted to be like crisp. Yeah, you know totally.
Speaker 2I feel like if I see someone with like really perfectly ironed clothes I it almost makes your clothes look more expensive.
Speaker 1Well, and like even when you're a kid and you don't really know about how to care for your jeans, you just throw them in the dryer.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1And then when they come out, they're like a wrinkled mess and I hated that. And I always wanted it to be like no wrinkles.
Speaker 2Wow, I know even your jeans, oh yeah wow, and when did you let it go?
Speaker 1people would come to my dorm room and be like I got, I gotta do something, I got somewhere to be. Could you iron my shirt? Because, ironing a button-down shirt is no joke.
Speaker 2You gotta have a system to it there's something about that role you having that role like I feel like I would want that role in the dorm of like people come to me like that was like my specialty was like the button down yeah, like I got you like I don't even know where to start with the button down shirt yeah, yeah so I was very pro iron for a lot of my life.
Speaker 2Yeah, and now I don't iron any, I don't even have an iron anymore, but can you trace where it changed? Having children Just apathy. Yeah.
Speaker 1Complete, just complete, not caring. I think COVID. Covid Honestly of course we were on screens.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1For work, and I think that was kind of like the thing that maybe a little bit prior to that. Of course, kids, you just don't have as much time and especially when they're young and things like that. So I think it might have been a little bit of a slow burn, but I think the final straw was probably COVID.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1And then it was just like why am I just not buying like wrinkle free? Because they have that like why am I not just doing?
Speaker 2that? Yeah, are those as well made, or do you find?
Speaker 1I find I don't care as much anymore.
Speaker 2So it's just kind of like, yeah, pop them in the dryer for a few minutes and then you're good to go yeah, yeah, my clothes are wrinkled a lot, so it's like I think it's so wise to iron, but like I don't really do it I mean I don't own an iron- but you want a steamer.
Speaker 2I own a steamer and I do because you want to get some of the wrinkles out. Yeah, I mean, I find what's nice about a steamer is it doesn't make it as starchy, but it gets the wrinkles out right and it's a little gentler on the fabric, right I would never go starch. Okay.
Speaker 1Like you know how some people have, like the spray starch that they would put in their shirts.
Speaker 3I wouldn't.
Speaker 1It was just straight ironing, just the iron. Okay, just the iron, but if I really had like an event or something to go to, I would take my shirt to the cleaners and do light starch.
Speaker 2Yeah, you know, what's funny is like my mom was telling me like you kind of really don't want to be taking her stuff to the cleaners and I was like so hot and it just ruins your clothing? No, because it's like the chemicals are really bad for you oh yeah, and it's bad for the people that work there oh yeah so I'm like it's funny because I was like it's hotter than hell in there but it's like boiling in there.
Speaker 2Yeah, it's like because I thought she was gonna say it's expensive and she's like boiling in there. Yeah, it's like because I thought she was going to say it's expensive and she's like oh, I used to do it all the time and she's like I've heard it's so bad, it's so toxic?
Speaker 1Well, how are you supposed to get your really big blankets cleaned? I mean it's a good question I guess, stuff them in the machine. You can't do that. That doesn't work.
Speaker 2Yeah, like there's one down there I said get him clean well, you could send him out. I guess if you do that like every six months or something, that's probably fine. Maybe like limit it. But yeah, I think there's like some toxic chemicals at these and even these like there's a green spin cleaners here which I've taken stuff to.
Speaker 3I don't know that's why we haven't been to dry cleaner.
Speaker 2I know that's why I've been a little skittish about that.
Speaker 3We haven't taken it in weeks, maybe even months, I know has it been since the polar vortex.
Speaker 2The polar vortex Wait.
Speaker 3last year there was that really cool day that I took our stuff back from the dry cleaners. Oh yeah, and then our garage wouldn't open and I was like stuck outside and had to park our car out on the street.
Speaker 2I think I've gone more recently.
Speaker 3I was carrying like toxic garments which I didn't even know at the time.
Speaker 2Probably all that cold air like got out of it. I know you've gone. You've probably been like three times since then I think I've been since then, but I've it's like, not the best, but sometimes with like, if something I'm going to wear to a wedding or whatever, I'll still do it. Or to get stains out special stains.
Speaker 3I got some stuff in that dry cleaning pile, some special stuff.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 3Guess, I'm just going to throw it out.
Speaker 2I mean, we'll see. We'll see, throw it off the balcony, just go over here problem solved.
Speaker 3Talk about why self-compassion?
Speaker 1but I do think there was a letting go for me of the ironing yeah it was like an over-controlled behavior a little bit yeah, totally like a rigid. It needs to look a certain way and I couldn't tolerate if there was like wrinkles.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 2Kind of like a, not to pathologize it, but Well, it's like my thing with sunblock Like I can't leave the house without sunblock on it. It's like that is a little much. Yeah, and letting go. I think I became most liberated to wear my clothes wrinkly when I was in new york. This was like a few years ago my friend leah, who we visited the other week. Like I remember visiting her and you know, new york the people aren't clothes and fashion and like looking around new york city and I was like everyone's clothes are wrinkled right and I was like you can just wear wrinkled clothes like no one cares and it was liberating.
Speaker 2I remember I was like these people look cool and their clothes are wrinkled.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2You know like. But maybe there's a lot of tourists or there's like people coming from wherever and business people in and out packing a suitcase. It's like your shit's wrinkled. Who cares? Stained is like not so okay, but like wrinkled.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 2Who cares?
Speaker 1Yeah, you traveled what are you going to do? I think traveling helps you tolerate that a little bit too.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1Because it's like, well, it's in a suitcase and now it's not Right. And you're going to have some wrinkles.
Speaker 2It is what it is.
Speaker 1Yeah, I'd be curious to hear what do you think? Is it wise to have an?
How Wise Is It to Iron Clothes?
Speaker 3ironing, I was about to throw my clothes off, close up the balcony.
Speaker 2Well, okay, perfect. Yeah, I can't picture you ironing.
Speaker 3No, I would let you iron it.
Speaker 2Oh, that's so cute, do it.
Speaker 3Or if you were like Josh iron, all my stuff, you know I would do that Like it would be a nice menial task. I'd listen to some dirty projectors and just crank it away.
Speaker 2Yeah, you do like a menial task.
Speaker 3Yeah, and just crank it away. Yeah, you do like a menial task. Yeah, I don't know why I said them. I haven't listened to them since the last time we went dry cleaning Dirty projectors laundry. Oh, thank you for understanding that. That makes sense you got to feel a little dirty to be clean. I think, well, what's the what you always say?
Speaker 2and I don't know if we've said it on the pod.
Speaker 3But it's like with clothes, there is a wisdom to kind of like really owning your look. Yeah, and I can't. I can only prescribe for me. I think I'm like a wrinkly guy, so I'm gonna wear wrinkly clothes yeah, like you, like like scruff I kind of like being like whatever, I don't give a fuck, which is like not of course I give a fuck about a lot of stuff, but I think you like an undone look?
Speaker 2I like it, I like and I'm not trying too hard, look yeah with my movies with my clothes yeah, yeah, I think that works with my movies and my clothes only, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3So not having an ironing board. Yeah, with your movies in your clothes, definitely not with your editing well, well no, I just mean like you're very diligent and detailed yeah, sometimes to make it look like I'm not trying too hard no that's not, I don't know. No, my, I guess my editing can be pretty crisp. Yeah, for anyone out there listening want to hire me to edit your movie. It's crisp plug, that's bare like the aspirin.
Speaker 1Iron your shirts as well.
Speaker 3It's not a wrinkly at it and I will throw in an extra.
Speaker 2I think if you got an iron in your hands, it'd be over.
Speaker 3I like any menial task.
Speaker 1I'm pretty much an automaton. There is something hugely satisfying about seeing a completed shirt pants once it's ironed, it's like oh perfect, yeah, it's true. The thing that sucks about irons or the ironing board is sucks.
Speaker 3Like you got to put it on the back of a door or something.
Speaker 2Yeah, in apartment living. It's crazy, it's awkward.
Speaker 1You're inevitably going to burn yourself on an iron.
Speaker 2Oh, my friend growing up did her whole hand.
Speaker 1I burnt my hand on it. You know it's dangerous danger.
Speaker 2Yeah, and even the steamer, it kind of like spits a little bit oh yeah, I usually put a t-shirt over it yeah yeah, yeah, I have one of those joy mangano ones, which do you remember that movie Joy that Jennifer Lawrence was in? Well, it's about this woman, joy Mangano. I bought one of her products.
Speaker 1Did you see it?
Speaker 2No, I heard it wasn't that good yeah.
Speaker 1No, I've never even heard of it.
Speaker 2It's like a it's who's that guy that she works with. A lot. That director oh, the guy who did American Hustle.
Speaker 1And Silver Linings Playbook yes, David O Russell. Yes, david O Russell.
Speaker 3Joy, joy. A joy to work with. Yeah.
Speaker 2She was like the first female millionaire, I think.
Speaker 3Jennifer Lawrence.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, totally Okay.
Speaker 1Well, that about wraps it up, maybe it was wise at one point in my life to own an ironing board, and for all the future recordings I'll just wear a wrinkly t-shirt.
Speaker 2Yeah, I think here it's like I don't know if it's wise or not to iron, but I think it is wise to be able to live in a wrinkled shirt.
Speaker 1I think that's the worst.
Speaker 3Well put. I don't think it's wise to feel like obligated to iron, there you go. But if it brings you joy, you love the process, you love your clothes being ironed, I wouldn't shit on it.
Speaker 2Yeah, you're going to go to some event.
Speaker 1I loved the process for years and the outcome even.
Speaker 3For decades you grew up in a strong iron family. Is that what you said? Yes, I was like that needs to be the name of your autobiography Strong iron family.
Speaker 2I was like that needs to be the name of your autobiography Strong Iron Family.
Speaker 3the story of Jonathan Butts.
Speaker 1Iron Family. My book will have Andrew in there, so Jonathan, andrew Butts.
Speaker 2Oh, I love that Even more. Iron.
Speaker 3Even more strong iron. J-a-b Jab.
Speaker 1My brother's initials are Jab as well. Wow, that's strong.
Speaker 2Jacob.
Speaker 1Aaron.
Speaker 2Oh, I was going to say Arthur.
Speaker 1Which I believe his middle name is spelt as, again, your tribe, the Irish would spell it A-R-I-N, which I believe is more of a Gaelic Irish name.
Speaker 2Well, it's funny. When you said Jacob Aaron, I was like it sounds like a Jewish name.
Speaker 1Right Two Jewish names. Well, both of our names are from the Old Testament.
Speaker 2Yeah, yes, that's right.
Speaker 1Yeah, Our first names at least.
Speaker 2But you're a child of Christ. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1Good point.
Speaker 2But you know.
Speaker 1And that's how we got to Iron he fucks with both Testaments.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1So, but yes, a strong Iron family, yeah, love it.
Speaker 2And I broke away from it.
Speaker 1Yeah, you're living in a wrinkled shirt and you're liberated, liberated. We solved it all. Again, we solved it all. I can't believe we do this every week and we solve it every time I know that's great.
Speaker 2It's a real it is great it's really satisfying, it's vital, it's vitality at its essence yeah what are you plugging? It's plugging really just myself, shamelessly. If you uh want to work with me, if you have questions about the pod or topics or or yeah, if you're like work in the space or just for some reason, you want to potentially come on the pod come on the pod and always shoot your shot.
Speaker 2You know, send us an email or send me an inquiry at kk psychotherapycom. Um yeah, and if you want to work with me, you can shoot that inquiry there too. Um yeah, so that's me. That's where you can find me. How about you, john?
Speaker 1yeah, uh, you can always reach out butts butzjonathan at gmailcom and you don't have to be a therapist to be on the pod.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1We welcome anybody, so certainly, if you want to be on, reach out to any one of us Totally.
Speaker 3Josh, astronomers, metallurgists how do you pronounce that word? Metallurgists? Metallurgy.
Speaker 2Wait, what's a metallurgist Someone who dabbles in metal? Yeah, oh, I love that Like an iron worker.
Speaker 1Oh oh oh that's where that comes from or like an alchemist, if we're going real old An alchemist, we'd love an alchemist.
Speaker 3We've had a hypnotist. Yeah, I'm just going to plug Kelly because she's been a great wife so far.
Speaker 1And John's been a good friend. Um, we haven't been married yet, but I like him a lot, not not a great friend, but a good well, solid, solid.
Speaker 3I haven't made you a birthday playlist yet, and that's because you haven't earned it. So I will it's actually because I didn't know your birthday.
Speaker 2That's okay, but now I do so no spoiler alert told you yeah, what the heck I wanted to keep it all to myself. That's okay yeah, I'll.
Speaker 3yeah, I'll make you an extra playlist. But yeah, I'm at joshbayerfilmscom and that's my website. You can contact me there. J-o-s-h-b-a-y-e-r filmscom.
Speaker 2Okay, thanks everyone. Thanks for stopping by everybody.
Speaker 1See you later. Bye, See ya bye.
Speaker 2The Wise Mind Happy Hour podcast is for entertainment purposes only, not to be treated as medical advice. If you are struggling with your mental health, please seek medical attention or counseling.