The Wise Mind Happy Hour
Two therapists musing about the idea of an inner wise mind and how to connect with this psychic space in different contexts.
The Wise Mind Happy Hour
Demystifying Spirituality (feat. Ravi Kathuria)
Ravi Kathuria, enlightened author of the book "Happy Soul. Hungry Mind." reframes the way we think about spirituality...is spirituality really so complex, or do we make it more complex than it needs to be? OR: would you rather eat a cheesecake, or look at a picture of a cheesecake? If this doesn't make sense to you now, it will soon.
- music by blanket forts -
Welcome to the Wise Mind Happy Hour. I'm Kelly.
Speaker 2:And I'm John. Welcome everyone.
Speaker 1:Yes, thanks for being here tonight. We have a special guest tonight.
Speaker 2:I'm excited about tonight. I think it's going to be a game changer.
Speaker 1:It's going to be a game changer. Just get ready everyone. But first we'll do a little introing, so Jen, tell us what's new.
Speaker 2:No, we can't start with me because you went on oh right, you teased everyone last week.
Speaker 1:Yes, I went to a bachelorette party A bachelorette party and a trip.
Speaker 2:So tell us about Palm Springs.
Speaker 1:It was great. Palm Springs was great. It was actually really, really fun. I was saying to Josh, it was, like you know, a capital B bachelorette party. Like I left on Wednesday I had a day in LA, which was nice. I just kind of like did some shopping in LA, um, and then drove up to Palm Springs from there, which actually I had kind of a kerfuffle on the way there. I guess this is like something people that live in California know that make this drive. But, like your Google Maps will tell you that the distance from LA to Palm Springs is two hours, it took me four and a half hours Because of traffic, because of California traffic.
Speaker 1:And also there was an accident and my friend Jessie, who lives there, shout out to jesse she, um, she's like oh yeah, it definitely takes longer than two hours, like typically, to get to palm springs. Like three. You should budget for at least like three hours.
Speaker 2:So people in california are in that, no, but people who haven't, yeah, I think it's like just something about the nature of, like that, california traffic and also there was an accident, they like basically closed down the highway for a part of it.
Speaker 1:Um, but my phone was running out of battery and that had my gps on it, so I suddenly was like I was writing on the back of like a receipt the directions on my gps in case my phone died map quest I know back in the day.
Speaker 2:a printout, I mean, that would have been incredible to have a printout.
Speaker 1:I truly was in this mode of like what the hell am I going to do if I get stuck on this highway? So I called my friend and told her I might be late and she was like cool about it. And then I just like wrote down the directions and I really had to like let go. I was like if this phone dies, it dies and I'm just following the directions on this piece of paper. It felt very scary. But then the traffic cleared up and I got there with 8% battery on my phone. So then I got there and then everything was great. I mean, it was like a great group of women who were so fun.
Speaker 1:Shout out to everyone who's there. And these girls, Roshni and Caitlin, planned the whole thing, which are my friend. Megan was the bachelorette and her these two friends of hers planned it and it was so fun.
Speaker 1:We did like a drag brunch, we went to like a tiki bar, we went to all these really good restaurants. I almost think the best part I don't know what you two think, having been to bachelor parties I kind of think the best part is when you're all just like hanging out at the Airbnb, maybe just hanging like we had a pool so we were like by the pool, or like getting doing your makeup together, which obviously you two wouldn't be doing totally can't really totally can't relate but doing your makeup together and just like chit-chatting like you're past all the small talk, you're hanging out and you're just kind of like lounging yes, that is the best.
Speaker 1:I miss that so much Like. I love living with you, josh. I love us being married, but you really don't get that time with your friends that I used to get so much Like in college. I had that so much and I spent so much of my time with my friend and I spent so much of my time with my friend, jesse. She stayed in the same room as me and we really got to just like hang and catch up and it was really amazing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I think brunch breakfast the next day is is great Cause you get to catch up, but you also get to like relive the shenanigans from the night before. And then because there's things you probably missed or and it's just, I always find that to be such a riot to like.
Speaker 3:Oh my god, yeah, you live the night before of like wait what happened or remember when this person did this or said that like it's so funny, it was so great.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we had this. We did this one game that was on someone's phone. It was like an app where it's almost like it's like truth or dare, except it's basically just like dare, it's almost like it's like truth or dare, except it's basically just like dare, just do this thing. Yeah, and it was like it had crazy questions where it was like I mean some of them, I would not be on this podcast, obviously but like pretty crazy questions that you had to answer about, like the people around you.
Speaker 1:And I was telling Josh, like some of the people like called it an early night but they were still listed in the game database. So the game would come up with questions about the people who weren't there. So we would just like pretend they were there and ask them. And they would ask these crazy questions and the game kept picking kind of the most, maybe. Like the most, like what's the word?
Speaker 2:like Pure, Pure people in the group.
Speaker 1:Reserved people in the group and asking the craziest questions. And then the other half of the questions were like drink, if you've ever taken a dance class. They were like so innocent and you never know what you were gonna get. If you were gonna get like tell everyone's dark secret or, you know, drink.
Speaker 1:If you've ever taken a dance class, it was really great. Um, so that was so fun. On the very last night, the bachelorette fell in the pool because she had like a blow-up doll of her fiance that she could like sit in as like an inner tube okay the whole time and she wanted to get it out of the pool before she left and she'd like been drinking and she definitely, just like straight up, fell in the pool with all of her clothes on with all her clothes on everything.
Speaker 1:It was so funny. Um, it was great. We watched on like our really like, because we were there from thursday through sunday so it was like we had a lot of time starts on wednesday.
Speaker 2:If you didn't tune into our previous podcast, yeah, in the back kelly's weekend start on wednesday.
Speaker 1:It starts on wednesday, um, but she, we had um, like a few hours one day and and also because, like the california time difference of two hours it does make a pretty big difference, such that like, yeah, some of us were getting up at like 7 am, naturally, because it's like 9 am here and um, we watched 10 things I hate about you great.
Speaker 1:I just watched that, maybe two months ago so good yeah and josh and I had watched it recently, yeah, like two months ago, yeah, truly. And then we watched drive me crazy. Have you guys ever seen that? No, that sounds familiar it's adrian grenier and melissa jonehart definitely have melissa jone hart sabrina and I know sabrina, yeah, yeah god that movie is so good.
Speaker 1:Both of them were great and just like sitting with my friends, like having my friend commentary about a movie I mean it was heaven. I like forgot about that experience, just like making fun of every character, like reliving the fashion we wore in the early aughts. It was incredible. It was so, so fun. And yeah, josh and I both got back on Sunday. Josh had his little trip.
Speaker 5:Yeah, to Port Townsend Film Festival. I don't need to talk about it that much. It could be a time suck, but I've been at all these film festivals. They're great. It's been great being on tour. But I've been at all these film festivals. They're great. It's been great being on tour. Kelly wasn't at this one. I just feel like I met cool people. I ate a salmon quiche by the ocean. That was really nice. Some nice salt air on the island.
Speaker 1:Yeah, josh texted me. He's like I'm eating a crab cake and listening to the people behind me talk about the jfk assassination they were talking about something about like top dog theory.
Speaker 5:Have you heard of this? No he was like I think he was reading some book about how like humans have like evolved to be the top dog. Oh, and he's like how do we get around that? Because it's like making like every politician bad. Oh, because, it's almost like they are the ones that are like the top of the food chain got it and it's like like we've evolved pretty much to like be something that's like counter to, I don't know, self-actualization yeah, or like the social contract yeah, so anyway, that was interesting, yeah, that made me laugh out loud.
Speaker 1:I was like sitting by the pool. Josh was like just listening to him talk about the jfk, so it was really nice.
Speaker 5:Yeah, amazing, and you did miss your flight which was phenomenal just rebooked it two hours later. Ate a, buy, my second bond me of the weekend. So, yeah, I can't remember the last time I had two bon mis in a weekend, which is I clearly uh, you know I I wasn't in seattle, I would port townsend is like an island two hours away from seattle I had to take a ferry, yeah, which is why, on the way back, um, I guess, I guess I was under the assumption if I like woke up at 8 am and my flight was at 3 55, I was like I feel like I'm gonna be able to, whether it's like a series of like ubers or buses or like, like I am crafty, I will figure out a way to get to, um, the airport, uh, or the ferry which you have to like. It's like a two-hour drive to the ferry and then it's like a 30 minute drive to the. It was crazy um god.
Speaker 5:So thursday I took a bunch of buses and it took me like probably I don't know three and a half, like four hours after the airport like to get to my it's like, by earth, wind and sea. It was like yeah and fire wait. Earth, wind and fire yes is that the saying?
Speaker 1:what did I just say?
Speaker 5:it was like um that one album by the by land, sea and well, no earth.
Speaker 1:Wind and fire is a band wait, yeah, I mixed up the band with the saying yeah earth wind and sea, wind, water are you thinking of like? By water, land and sea, by?
Speaker 5:hooker by crook, by hooker, by crook you got.
Speaker 1:I said I'd get there by hook or by crook. By hook or by crook, you got there.
Speaker 5:I said I'd get there by hook or by crook and I did, but you didn't get home. Lisa and Doug were impressed. I guess you were supposed to arrange for a ride, but they were only giving rides on Thursday. They were only giving rides I didn't get a ride. They were only John. They were only giving rides on Thursday. Are you catching this On Thursday and Monday? And I was getting there on Friday and leaving on Sunday, so that didn't help me.
Speaker 5:Lisa was like well, you were supposed to arrange for a ride and I was like I went on the website and I couldn't and she was like oh, so on the way back there's no Ubers. You couldn't call an Uber to the island. I I did it. It was 120 bucks. I was ready to do it. Man, it was like 30 minutes later I like felt like I was about to cry.
Speaker 5:I was like I think I need to like yeah because I kind of made friends with some of these people running the festival, um, and, like lisa and doug, my mentors were in a, I think our second, our film was playing for the second time. I I wasn't going, I had to catch the ferry yeah, this is monday, um. So I kind of got in with these like port townsend people and I was like hey, uh, timothy, timothy, timothy, timothy, good memory, yeah, timothy, I had. They called this like film kid in Great kid, he's writing some good scripts, I think.
Speaker 1:But I hit you on the drive.
Speaker 5:Yeah Well, I wanted him to, but he refused. Ok, I think he's like a sophomore in college, but anyway, they call upon Timothy.
Speaker 2:Is he a projectionalist?
Speaker 5:Yeah, he's a projector, he's a. He's a projector. Human design than human design. But long story short, timothy ended up driving me and I missed my flight by one minute oh my god.
Speaker 1:Yeah, josh texted me when I was at the airport and he's like, fuck, I'm gonna miss my flight and I just was like.
Speaker 5:All I could say was like, I'm so sorry that's a bad feeling it's the worst, it was, it was the worst like also I, I thought I was gonna just barely make my flight and I got through security and my flight was leaving in like 15 minutes, so I thought I was gonna run onto the plane, but I literally had to take two monorail rails after security to get to my gate.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, which has literally never happened to me I mean I got early for my flight and then I was like stuck in the la like lax traffic for 20 minutes. I looked at the driver. I was like, is it gonna be faster for me to walk? He was like no.
Speaker 5:I was like okay, I'm absolutely screwed but I got there, I got there right on time too, yeah man oh my god so yeah, it was fun, but probably the more interesting part was like the things that didn't go so smoothly we made it we made it what's new with you.
Speaker 2:I was not traveling. I have nothing to compare to. This was local. Yeah, what did we do? Oh, my kids school had their family fun fest this weekend, which is just kind of like an outdoor event for new family yeah, well, any family, but you know, I think it's a way for people to just meet other families and the kids have fun. So they had, you know, the classic kind of like bounce houses and different games. So so we did that on Sunday, which was nice, got to see a bunch of their friends and mingle with other parents. And then Saturday, what did we do? I don't think we did much on Saturday, so it's been pretty much local. But what you were saying was interesting about the if your phone died. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because I was thinking well, it's one thing to ask for directions, but do people know how to give directions anymore? I feel like no, I don't, I wouldn't know how. Isn't that an interesting thing? But I could check on my phone if it hasn't died, I know, but it's, it's so interesting, if you like. Went to somebody and was like hey, how do you get there?
Speaker 2:well, you know it's, so that's like a skill to be able to be like well in a quarter mile left on this and you're gonna run into this street, and then you're gonna, you know, head east, and then you're gonna look for this landmark, which is this, and then I feel like maybe that's a dying skill I mean, I'm not even good at that like like in my own apartment to be like oh, the bathroom's your third door on the left.
Speaker 1:Like I'll be, like what, yeah?
Speaker 5:yeah, yeah, I can't ever explain anything, yeah.
Speaker 1:When I was at the, I went in LA to the Grove, the famous mall, the Grove to get a bachelorette gift for my, for Megan and I was walking around and a woman did come up to me and she's like where's the Nordstrom? And I was like I, this is my first time here and she was like her face dropped, like please she goes, I'm late for my appointment. I was like what appointment? Like a makeup appointment?
Speaker 1:I guess maybe a makeup or like a fitting or yeah, maybe a styling appointment okay, but I was like I'm so sorry. I was like there's a directory somewhere like a massage.
Speaker 2:Do they have a sign? Oh yeah, they do have a one I think maybe, oh, my god, so funny yeah but that made me think of if somebody asked me for directions, would I still have that muscle? I feel like I'm pretty I get oriented to a place pretty quickly, like if I'm vacationing in a city, like I kind of like remember that, yeah, people don't ask for directions, no, because everybody has their phone, right. I mean, I think when people ask me for directions?
Speaker 1:No, because everybody has their phone, right. I mean, when people ask me for directions, like I just feel like I don't know what to say, like I don't think I ever know where I'm going, yeah, or like where to tell them to go. Like I know where I'm going, I should say but I don't know anything else I don't have time for you.
Speaker 2:I know where I'm going, yeah, yeah, it's like, unless you're going exactly where I'm going, I can't help you.
Speaker 1:Yeah it's sort of like that's the vibe. Or it's like I'll get too nervous about the interaction that it's like all my knowledge of where, even if I know the place, it falls out of my head. But I do feel like, oh yeah, when you, me and Lori were walking home from dinner, remember that guy asked us if it was like he was okay to park where he parked oh, true yeah um but that's that's just like advice.
Speaker 2:Right, but did you feel in that moment like you didn't know what to say?
Speaker 1:well, at first I didn't know what he was saying. I did have a moment of that where I'm like what's happening in this interaction?
Speaker 2:a person, a stranger is approaching us like this is like alarm bells and it did seem as though maybe in the, you know, substances were influencing totally behavior also and he was like, yeah, in the wheel of a car, which is not great no but he had just parked, but he had just parked it yeah, perfect um worried about the. You know, the zone parking versus meters right makes sense. Yeah, um, but yeah. But then what I like came to.
Speaker 1:I was like oh he just wants to know the zone parking versus meters. Right, Makes sense. Yeah, but yeah. But then what I like came to. I was like, oh, he just wants to know if it's legal for him to park here.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And we were able to like tell him that.
Speaker 2:We sussed that out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we sussed that out, but yeah, it's like I definitely am not good at that. I think we've all lost that ability and we're like, completely dependent on the phone which is exactly why I was so panicked. I was like and like I had my charger, but my charger is so old it didn't fit the car the rented car I had.
Speaker 2:So I was like oh my God, I'm going to have to ask for directions.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm going to have to buy a map. But I was also like on a highway. Yeah, so you're going to have to get off and buy a man, but the highway was moving so slowly it was like I was just like stuck and the time kept going up on the gps. Literally I started the drive, it said two hours and six minutes.
Speaker 2:Halfway through the drive it's like you're like two hours and 12 minutes. Am I going in the opposite direction?
Speaker 1:I literally was like am I in a time warp?
Speaker 5:like what's stress fall?
Speaker 1:yeah it was very scary, um, and then I also just felt like I was never going to make it. But then I did, then you did, it was great. It was great, it was so fun. I have not had like a party weekend like that. Yeah. Because even our own wedding it's like we're so busy, we're so many tasks.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, that's not yeah.
Speaker 1:It's like a different thing, totally different thing. This was, yeah, this was just so fun.
Speaker 1:It was so fun to like be with friends, of friends who like and learn more about their lives, and like their kids and because most of them had kids and and you know it's like everybody has different types of like jobs and like dynamics with their spouses and with their kids and like it's so fun to hear about all that stuff and and learn like what stage everyone is in and yeah, it was great, it was so, so fun. I love it. Yeah, and in my most of my flight stuff was smooth, other than like almost missing the second flight. I sat next to a dog on the flight on the way there that stared at me the entire flight. Just like docile sat there like looking at me every time I looked over for my book.
Speaker 2:It was just like was it like a therapy support animal?
Speaker 1:it must have been, because it was like freewheeling on the plane.
Speaker 5:Okay, it was like did I buy a?
Speaker 1:ticket. I mean it literally was almost like you know, like an anthropomorphized like, like it felt like a real person and everybody who walked past it was like, oh hi, like it was so cute yeah. And I think it was like supposed to probably be in a carrier.
Speaker 2:Yeah right. Well, how did you feel about having a dog right next to you?
Speaker 1:Well, at first I was a little like what the hell Well?
Speaker 2:at first I was a little like what the?
Speaker 1:hell, what's going on here? And then it was so cute and it just like sat there looking at me. I was like, oh, it's sweet. And then she brought it into the bathroom several times To go. What do you think that was?
Speaker 2:Did the dog tap her and be like I gotta get up and go. Yeah, I gotta go, I can't hold this any longer.
Speaker 1:Well, the other thing is, I feel like she kept bringing it into the first class bathroom, which kind of made me laugh. I was like fuck these people, Was she first class?
Speaker 5:No Wait, how was she able to do that?
Speaker 1:You can do it. I went in that bathroom too. Oh my God, it was the one I was closest to. What gall? Here's the thing You're able to do that.
Speaker 5:She's got an expensive dog time out what?
Speaker 2:what would you're paying for first class? Aren't you paying so that you're using a separate bathroom from I guess not from all of?
Speaker 1:those, the plebeians all, including me.
Speaker 2:I mean so that there's less people using that bathroom. Isn't that what you're paying for?
Speaker 1:listen, we all used that bathroom up there.
Speaker 2:I've never been on a plane with a first class, so I don't even know what that's like. But I'm just you've never.
Speaker 1:I don't think so you've been on a plane with the first class I have or like business class or probably business class, but it's not a completely separate.
Speaker 2:Was there like a curtain and like a separate like?
Speaker 1:it was a curtain. Yeah, yeah, I don't think I've ever been on a flight like that you have.
Speaker 2:I doubt it. What airline?
Speaker 1:United.
Speaker 2:I never fly United I doubt it.
Speaker 1:Oh, you fly Southwest.
Speaker 2:Southwest or American.
Speaker 1:Oh, american was the second one and that had a curtain.
Speaker 2:Not on the flight to Mexico I went to. It didn't have a first class. Really, I'm pretty sure it didn't. Well, maybe, really I'm pretty sure it didn't. Well, maybe I'm calling business class first class no, no.
Speaker 1:If it has a curtain, that's got to be first, right I?
Speaker 2:guess, if there's separation, I feel like it's first yeah business is still in like the main cabin, isn't it? It's just closer to the exits, isn't that what business is?
Speaker 5:you get a huge seat and so first.
Speaker 1:First is like and there's a dog in your bath and there's a dog in your bathroom. Yeah, ideally I mean I was like what is the dog doing in there? They're probably going into gossip, definitely.
Speaker 5:I mean, that's what I do with my friends in the bathroom.
Speaker 1:In the plane.
Speaker 2:In the plane but you're going to say that's what I do with my friends' dogs. Is I gossip? I don't go on the plane with my friends dogs. But I wish I could. I don't know I might have said. I might have said something if there was a dog staring at me really I don't know I might have said something like can you can?
Speaker 2:you turn it around can you maybe like put it under the seat? It kind of made me laugh, like why is it at attention for four hours, sort of like I wonder why it's not looking at her. Yeah.
Speaker 1:But, it's probably like I look at this bitch all day.
Speaker 5:Dogs love you, they love to look at you, they love your appearance.
Speaker 1:Oh, I think babies like to look at me yeah. Because, I'm usually like smiling and so excited to see a baby. Well, I think I'm more like. I have this aura of like I'm a safe person because I like babies and and I like dogs but you like dogs even more than me?
Speaker 5:yeah, but I'm not, I'm not.
Speaker 2:I am not a safe person, but do you like them on flights?
Speaker 1:you would have loved it I?
Speaker 5:that would have been nice. Yeah, I'm reading my book, I'm listening to music. I look over, there's a dog looking at me staring, staring, staring at me. Oh that, oh, that's nice. I don't think I would have told them to turn away.
Speaker 1:Now what about a cat?
Speaker 2:Cats are different because usually people do keep them in the carriers. Whenever I've seen a cat on a plane, it's rarely out.
Speaker 5:They're in the overhead compartment. They're with the luggage.
Speaker 2:I think if a cat was loose in the plane, I might say something well, cats are so unpredictable, that's yeah. I just feel like if it's out and the dog is like right there next to you, I'm just envisioning like I might be like what's the deal here? Yeah, why doesn't it have a carrier? Or why isn't it just under your leg? Aren't therapy dogs supposed to like sit under you?
Speaker 1:she kept trying to push it under and it wouldn't go.
Speaker 4:That's awesome, and not even in any aggressive way, it was just kind of like and then it kept going down her her road to the other two men down there and
Speaker 2:they were kind of like I paid for my seat, I'm getting my meal, yeah, and I'm watching.
Speaker 1:I'm watching the movie yeah it was great, and even when it was sitting on lap, it would turn its head and look at me because I was across the aisle from her. Oh, it was so funny. I was like there's no point in which this dog isn't like almost like reading my book, like you know, like truly it's a real page turner.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was so funny. Well, you all had great weekends. Yeah, I mean, when you travel.
Speaker 1:I do feel like you have so many experiences. It's like when I sit at home, I'm like what did I do? I did nothing, and it's like one little trip and I've had a thousand interactions.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and stories galore.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, and like Palm Springs is so interesting, I really wanted to get a date shake. They're famous in Palm Springs for a date shake, meaning a milkshake with ground up dates in it. Ugh, that sounds terrible.
Speaker 4:And people say it's amazing.
Speaker 1:My Uber driver was like you gotta get a date shake and I never got one that sounds terrible. Do you think Dates? Do you not like dates?
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:I love a good date. Why love a good date. Why they're so sweet. They're so sweet and kind of like nutty tasting I don't like them.
Speaker 1:You don't like them. Well, I'd be curious if you'd like a date shape. Maybe you'd like it in that context. Like that, ground up, a date shake, a date shake I mean, everybody gets them there. And my friends were like we don't want that, so I would have to like get it alone. And I was like I don't think I'm gonna finish the whole thing, so like I guess I'm just not getting one of these. And then I said to myself Josh and I'll come back here and I'll get one. Yeah, do you think that'll happen?
Speaker 5:Probably not no, I mean Palm Springs does have a film festival. Ooh, and you went, and you got a shake but you didn't get shared someone else's shake and we weren't even in palm springs yet it was a neapolitan.
Speaker 1:It was a neapolitan ice cream shake, which probably wouldn't have been my first. It wasn't even a shake, it was a button me I got zero bond me's on this trip.
Speaker 5:I did get, uh tamales, oh nice. There was one place we went. It was like a pretty upscale I don't I don't know out of the words evacuate me this evening. It was almost like a gift shop with like lots of. They had like all these like obscure japanese snacks and like every type of jerky you could imagine. Yeah, like like the mo, like it was almost like this is in palm springs in palm springs.
Speaker 5:It was like a mix between like a gas station and like a museum. Yeah, of like the coolest gas station in the world, of like every cool little tchotchke or food or little thing, just like obscure food items. Yeah, in the general gas station formula. So I got tamales Nice but they also had date shakes and I didn't get date shakes.
Speaker 1:okay, that's where the date shakes yeah, I gotta go back and get one and I will before I'm dead. Yeah, yeah, we'll probably go I mean you gotta commit to a date shake I mean, if anything, you're probably serving them to old people so that they stay regular right, wait, but do dates do it, or is it more prunes?
Speaker 2:oh, is it prunes? Maybe I was mixing it up with prunes.
Speaker 5:Yeah, oh, so you like dates? No, I don't.
Speaker 2:So I was just going to clarify. I still don't like dates but, I, was mixing them up with prunes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Honestly, I'd probably try a prune shake, but I bet it wouldn't be quite as good. No it that are like people think are healthy and they're like really not that healthy. But I'm not going to date shake to be healthy. I want to get one because it sounds great.
Speaker 2:Sounds great. Sounds great. Okay, this episode brought to you by date shakes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sponsor Lapperts, I think is the famous place. We'll never know.
Speaker 5:That may or may not be where I was. Yeah, lapperts, good segue. It may or may not be where I was, yeah, leopards, good segue, good segue into our guest. Yeah, okay, who leads right?
Speaker 2:in Perfect so yeah, we're really excited to welcome our guest.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Ravi Kotharia. I hope I said that correctly.
Speaker 4:Yes.
Speaker 2:Perfect, okay, great.
Speaker 4:That's good, John. That's yeah, Okay Go ahead.
Speaker 2:Great, that's good, john. That's that's yeah. Okay, please. So I want to read a little bit. I know you were too humble and didn't necessarily want us to read a bio, but I think it's important for us to read for our listeners. So Rivi is a founder and president of Houston Strategy Forum and the management consulting firm Cohesic Corporation. He is a recognized business thought leader, vibrant speaker and executive coach. He's the author of the highly acclaimed leadership parable how Cohesive Is your Company. His second book, which hopefully we're going to be talking about here Happy Soul, hungry Mind the Modern Day Parable About Spirituality is a non-religious and practical tale exploring spirituality. He's made spirituality simple and accessible for all, without judgment which we love to hear and preconditions.
Speaker 1:So welcome, Ravi Welcome.
Speaker 2:Yes to the Wise Mind.
Speaker 4:Happy Hour. Thank you, thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you, kelly and John. Thank you for having me. I'm happy to be here. I hope this discussion will live up to the name that you've given your show the Wise Minds right.
Speaker 1:Yes, totally I think it will. I'm so eager to learn everything. I was just saying this off mic earlier to Ravi. I got a little lost in learning about your book and this idea of demystifying spirituality. I'm so interested in that, so we can kind of start maybe with that, with the book itself. Yeah, tell us about this idea of happy soul, hungry mind.
Speaker 4:Oh, wow, Kelly, you're going right for her for it, and so I'm going to. I'm going to talk about happy soul, hungry mind in a second. I want to start with the demystifying spirituality. So I spent many years wondering why spirituality was so complex. Why was it so complicated? Because I knew this. I had a sense that nature, the universe, whatever forces are there, they all want us to take towards spirituality. And I kept asking. I said, but how come it's so difficult? Why does it seem? You know, nature wants us to go out and procreate, and it makes it really easy. Right, it really makes it easy. It puts all the ingredients there. I said nature wants us to have spirituality. Why is it so complex? And then it hit me I realized one day spirituality was not complex.
Speaker 4:The people who talk about spirituality, human beings, had made spirituality complex and you know we have, over the ages, over thousands of years, we have overlaid spirituality, we have put layers of religion on it, we have created dogmas and doctrines, we have created mysticism and made spirituality convoluted, Even to this day. When you look at modern spiritual leaders, when they talk about spiritual authors, you can listen to any one of them. You can go to Wikipedia and type up this, the definition of spirituality, and boy it's a lot to digest. You listen to these leaders, spiritual leaders, and they describe spirituality in terms which you go. I need to find a dictionary or Google search this term and you go.
Speaker 4:Well, if I have to look up terms that define spirituality, maybe it's not for me. Look up terms that define spirituality, maybe it's not for me. And so my, if you will, my simple mission is to tell everyone on earth spirituality is absolutely, stunningly simple. It is not complex at all, and whoever describes it in complex terms, whoever tries to make it up into this you know, I don't know and dress it up, are doing actually a disservice to spirituality, because it prevents people from recognizing that spirituality is so simple and within their reach. I can talk about happy soul, hungry mind, but we'll come back to it. I want to make sure I give you a chance to dive deeper on demystifying spirituality, if you'd like to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I'm curious. What comes up for me is the idea of has religion made spirituality like the difference between spirituality and religion? Are those two separate things? I know they're both together and at the same time. When you're saying spirituality, are you speaking more to the individual how they engage spiritually in their lives, or are you talking both that as well as possibly through, maybe, an organized religion, if that makes sense?
Speaker 4:Yes, yes, yes. Great question. Let's answer the question. Spirituality and religion are two absolutely distinct things. Okay, they could be related, but they're absolutely distinct things. Okay, they could be related, but they're absolutely distinct. And let me explain to you what is religion and what is spirituality. Okay, think of I don't know, a cheesecake. Religion would be the picture of a cheesecake. It can remind you of a cheesecake. Religion would be the picture of a cheesecake. It can remind you of a cheesecake. It can put you in the mood to eat a cheesecake. Spirituality is the actual eating and experience of the cheesecake. Oh, I love that.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, I mean give me spirituality all day long.
Speaker 4:then if it's eating a cheesecake, Well, yeah, I mean, give me, give me spirituality all day long. Then, if it's eating a cheesecake, yes, absolutely. And you know, the this point needs to be underscored is that if you hang on to just the picture of the cheesecake, you will, you will be hungry forever.
Speaker 5:And if you try to eat the picture of a cheesecake. It's not going to be. Yeah, I wouldn't advise that.
Speaker 4:The picture. It could be the most beautiful picture, and yet you are nowhere closer to the cheesecake if you just hang on to the picture. Hang on to the picture.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes me think a little bit too, and I think of this a lot in my own life and with my clients. That like finding kind of inner authority, experiential knowing within, kind of like inner spaciousness being a lot of that spirituality piece like the spirit of oneself, and connecting to that as an experience being so important to like vitality.
Speaker 4:Yes, you know the spirituality is all about. It's all about experience, and great, great sages have said this, and great, great sages have said this the experience that you get from spirituality is an experience that you cannot describe using language. All right, and you think about that and you go, wow, you know how great that experience may be that you cannot describe it with language. And you go, whoa, maybe that's. You know it's too much, but it's really very simple what they're saying. Because we go back to our very basic example of the cheesecake.
Speaker 4:If you have not eaten a cheesecake, I am sitting in front of you and eating the cheesecake and you can tell I'm really enjoying the cheesecake, cheesecake, and you can tell I'm really enjoying the cheesecake. Okay, and I am describing the cheesecake in such beautiful language, poetic language In fact. I bring Shakespeare back from the grave and say Shakespeare, help me describe the cheesecake. And you know, shakespeare comes alive and he is just describing the cheesecake. You two are sitting there listening to that and yet you have zero clue of what the cheesecake actually tastes like. You can never, ever, it is impossible for you to truly know what that cheesecake tastes like until you experience it. Yeah, me describing in its earnest, or Shakespeare describing, is not going to help you. It cannot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it can't come close to that experience. So I'm curious when it comes to you helping someone cultivate that connection, what are some things you do, or even for yourself, you helping someone cultivate that connection?
Speaker 4:Yes.
Speaker 1:What are some things you do, or even for yourself you know, doing that connecting.
Speaker 4:I think what we should do is answer the question what is spirituality? Yeah.
Speaker 4:Right. This also will answer your earlier question about demystifying spirituality. If I lay the claim that I have figured out that spirituality is stunningly simple, then the question is what is it Right? Why do you claim it is stunningly simple? What is spirituality? So, ms Kelly and Mr John, I want to share with you the simplest definition of spirituality on earth. There cannot be a more simpler and more powerful definition than this. All right, your audience is thinking this man likes to, he must have worked in Hollywood, he likes to dramatize, but really this is this is important.
Speaker 4:I love the build-up let's, let's make sure that we're all prepared to receive this answer. Because it's such a beautiful answer, all right, and it and um, I want to make sure I say this it's not beautiful because I came up with the answer. It's beautiful because of what it is right, all right. So stop building up what is spirituality? And, kelly, you alluded to this a little bit already. Spirituality is simply the experience of your own life energy. There is a life energy, there is a life force in everyone who is living. When this life force leaves, my own family members will go. He's gone, all right. My body will be here, but that life force is what gives me dynamism, that life energy. Dynamism, that life energy Experiencing my own life energy we call it spirit, soul, atma, whatever word you want to use when I experience my own soul and that soul, that life energy. That is spirituality. And you think about this definition. It sounds simple.
Speaker 4:The ramifications, the implications of these definitions are so great. Nowhere in this definition did it say anything about what you believe. Yeah, it did not describe who you are. It does not matter who you are. You're a man, you're a woman, you're a transgender, doesn't matter. You're gay, you're straight, you're bisexual, you're asexual, you're hypersexual, doesn't matter. You're a billionaire, you're a pauper, doesn't matter. You live in Asia, you live in America, doesn't matter. You live in Asia, you live in America. You live in the Amazon rainforest, never having seen or exposed to the modern world, does not matter. That person living, who has always lived, in a tribe in the Amazon rainforest, that person has as much that ability to experience his or her life force, just like you or me or anybody else on earth. We all have that ability to experience our own life force. That is spirituality. It is really. When you look at the definition, you go, wow, how simple this is. And then, of course, the question that you ask at least, how do I get there?
Speaker 4:yeah, right how do I experience my own life force? What do I need to do? Religion will, will misdirect you. It will send you in 19 different directions. Spirituality does not send you in 19 different directions. It says it's you and your life force, your life energy. Guess what? You could go anywhere. Your life energy goes with you. Rather, you are always where your life energy is. So you could be sitting in your own home or you could be in the middle of your wedding reception with 500 people around you dancing. Your life energy is there and you can experience your life energy at home or in the middle of your own wedding reception. How crazy is that? Because why? It's you and your life energy. Nothing can come in between those two. You do not need anybody's blessings. Nobody's judgment can affect you. It's you and your life force.
Speaker 4:I tell people I cannot sell spirituality to you. I can sell religion to you all day long, right? Because I can say oh, if you follow my religion, I am the only pathway to God. So I will sell you religion. You give me stuff and I will give you blessings in return. Yeah, right, welcome to the business of religion. Right, there is no business of spirituality because your life force in you.
Speaker 4:Who am I to interfere? What can I sell you? How can I sell you your own arm? I cannot do that. You say excuse me, are you crazy? This is my own arm. Why are you trying to sell me that? It's already mine? How stupid do you think I am? And I cannot? I cannot sell you spirituality because it is your own. This is your own capability. I cannot sell you something that you already possess. I cannot sell you something that is already in your DNA. I cannot do that. You already have it and you know what. Nobody can take it away from you. Nobody can impart it to you. Nobody can take it away from you. People can judge you, but nobody can separate you from your spiritual ability. Yeah.
Speaker 2:A few things that are popping into my mind. These are just like associations from what you're talking about and they're coming more from like maybe a psychological lens, just because we're therapists, but the idea maybe from a more Western psychological tradition of that, and I don't know if they're synonymous. But the idea of tapping into, like, maybe your own self-worth, like it's something you're born with, you're worthy because you are a human, and that's kind of from like a Brene Brown perspective. But also just like the words, like authenticity to me like a spiritual experience of being authentically really connected with who we are without and letting go of those judgments. I mean wise mind.
Speaker 2:We talk about that from a DBT perspective, that inherent wisdom that we all have. We can certainly get away from it, but nobody can take that away away from us. And then, certainly for me, a very important thing that I work with a lot are people's values, and we can't prescribe that or take those away from people. But the things that people move towards in their life and when they have that experience that they've moved towards what's important and I don't maybe describe it like that when I'm working with people, but that can be a very spiritual experience. That's hard to put your finger on how to describe it, because it's what's meaningful to you.
Speaker 4:John, you raise a beautiful point and let's dissect this. This point needs to be dissected. The self-worth, the notion of self-worth that I am right, it stays with you. Beliefs and convictions, they're all embedded deep in our mind and in our subconscious. And, in fact, there is something that even goes beyond this is our own personalities, and you will see that our personalities, during our lifespan, most of the time say static. You can see it from a child who is two years old to when he or she grows up, to be 90 years old, and they carry the same personality, right. So personality is embedded in all of these, but spirituality goes beyond all of this, because we define spirituality as the experience of your own soul.
Speaker 4:So then the question is how do I experience my own soul, ravi? You say it's available to me 24-7. I, you know I'm looking for it. You say it's my own soul. I can find my hand. Where do I find my soul? What are you talking about? Are you selling us some smart talk and leave us confused, right? So we walk in here thinking, oh yeah, he said it's my own soul, I just have to connect with it, but he never told us how to connect with it. Let's answer that question how to connect with your own soul, because this discussion is incomplete if I give you the answer but not how to get to the answer. I tell you there is a cheesecake, but I don't tell you. You know it's behind a glass door and you say you never gave me the key to open the glass door. So thank you very much. Yeah, for all your talk about how good the cheesecake is, I am still hungry. I haven't experienced it. Quit the talking, ravi. Stop talking so much. Tell me quickly.
Speaker 4:How do I experience my own soul? You experience your life energy. You begin to start getting glimpses of your own life force, your soul, your spirit. When your mind life force, your soul, your spirit, when your mind becomes quiet, the day or the moment your mind becomes quiet, when it is thoughtless, your soul becomes evident by itself. And this is an example that I repeat a million times.
Speaker 4:I say the sun always shines. The sun is always constantly shining. It does not stop. It never stops. But if you have a clouded day and there are clouds, you cannot see the sun. As soon as the clouds dissipate, the clouds move away. The sun comes shining through. You don't have to do anything. The sun was always shining. It just signs through and you're able to view it. It becomes visible to you. The day the clouds of thoughts that are in your mind quiet down your life force, energy begins to become visible automatically. It is such a fascinating aspect of nature. It is such a fascinating aspect of human beings. And again, it does not describe who the human being is, what the human being's body looks like, how the human being thinks nothing.
Speaker 4:As soon as the mind becomes quiet, that human being's soul, spirit, life, energy will start becoming self-evident. All you have to do is to quiet the mind and, john, let's now connect this back to what you were saying. If I have to quiet the mind, then there is no thought. There is no thought about self-doubt or self-worth, there is no thought about values, there is no thought about identity itself. When my mind is completely quiet, my identity is quiet. I have no recollection of what my assets are, what my accomplishments are, what my failures are, what my accomplishments are, what my failures are, what my wins are, what my relationships are, what my bank balance is. All of that has become absolutely quiet. What my values are, what my convictions are, what my desires are, what my fears are, everything is quiet and in that thoughtless state, when the clouds have completely dissipated, your soul begins to shine.
Speaker 4:So in the you know, at the back of my book, it says quiet your hungry mind and let your happy soul shine. Just let it shine. You don't have to do anything. You cannot make the soul shine, it is always shining. You have to quiet your hungry mind. When the mind is quiet, you experience the miracle that you really are, the wondrous gift that the universe has given you. My friends, that is spirituality. It's not mumbo-jumbo, it's not all the excuse, my language, all the BS that you hear, hear the complexity that people describe it with. Spirituality is the experience of your own life force and you can experience it when you quiet the mind. Your mind becomes quiet, you wake up and you transform your life comes quiet, you wake up and you transform your life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know something that you just said that really like if kind of like, opened something in me that feels resonant, is that idea of like, when the experience of the quieting allows, like the self and that life force, energy, to be just evident. You know, it's just there. When that stillness is there, it's evident. I think that's the perfect word for it, because I've had that experience where I don't need to teach myself that, tell myself that kind of foster that it is eternal and kind of just like shining, like you say, that experience when you get to that quiet place.
Speaker 4:Ms Kelly, I bow down my head to you because how beautiful you are that you have experienced that and you know you started the conversation with demystifying spirituality. That experience is so simple, where your own life force becomes self-evident, and everybody on earth for ages has complicated this process and really misguided the human race. The time has come for the human race to wake up the spiritual awakening. I wrote an article. It has yet to publish. I said the time for the spiritual awakening of the world has come and the time is now. How do you tell that? The time is now when an idea can be boiled down to its simplest form. You know its time has come. This definition has been born and your experience of your own soul when you are in stillness is such a beautiful experience and I promise you, everyone on earth I use this phrase glimpses of the soul.
Speaker 4:Everyone on earth has had a glimpse of their soul. Sometimes it's in a religious setting. You're sitting in a church where there is no congregation, no pastor is disturbing you. You're sitting on the bench alone and you look up at the cross and behind there are stained glass and little sun rays are coming in and you experience a stillness and you come out and you describe and you say, wow, I experienced God. What you're really experiencing is not God. You're calling that experience God. Experience Really. What you're experiencing is your own life force, because your mind is completely still. When you go to a temple in India where they're singing and dancing and you're lost in that singing and dancing and you're just completely. Your mind becomes still, even though your feet are moving, your hands are moving, your mouth is moving, but you're completely and you experience that.
Speaker 4:Or you are somebody who climbs Mount Kilimanjaro and reaches the top. You're completely still. You experience that. We all experience the stillness. We all have had the glimpse of our soul. It becomes evident and we do not even realize it. We human beings experience something so profound at so many moments in our life and we mislabel it and we misunderstand it and, worst, we ignore it. What a travesty. What a yeah, we need to change that. We need to change that. I feel like climbing up on a roof somewhere and screaming at the top of my lungs and say, please, you got something in. You Just don't ignore it. And it sounds like I'm screaming even now. Josh will have to control the volumes. The man really was screaming.
Speaker 2:He, josh, will have to control the volumes.
Speaker 4:It's a man really was screaming. He doesn't have to climb a rooftop.
Speaker 2:No, but I think again, bringing it back to like who Kelly and I maybe work with, and I'll speak to my own experience.
Speaker 2:A lot of times people come to us and part of maybe diagnostically or you know, what they're struggling with is a lot of people say I just want to turn off my brain. I just wish I wasn't experiencing so many thoughts. I just wish I wasn't. My brain is racing all the time and it's constantly going, and so I think that quiet in the mind and that's why mindfulness practices are so, I feel like, almost ubiquitous within therapy. Now most modalities try to use it because there is so much value and again, even if we're not languaging it as spirituality but so much, I guess I don't know power can be unleashed or human potential can be unleashed if we're able to quiet and maybe release some of that, and our brain's just going to do what it's going to do, right. So it is going to be loud at times, but I think allowing people the space to quiet some of that through different techniques can be, you know, life-changing for so many people.
Speaker 4:You know you're absolutely right, john is that I say in the book Happy Soul, hungry Mind, I say the mind can be your best friend or your worst enemy. If the mind is controlling you and is constantly thinking and constantly makes you run, you live a hellish life. When you control the mind, when the mind answers to you, you live a heavenly life. So all these practices Kelly asked me earlier in the conversation about practices you're bringing up but all these practices that help you calm the mind will make your life heavenly.
Speaker 4:On my website, spirituality Within, I actually have a pyramid and I say at the bottom of the pyramid, when your mind, you know religion is right in the aspect of saying, well, you should not have guilt and regret and jealousy and hate and all of that. But they never explained why because they said you know they connected with well. Well, if you don't have those, then you'll go to. You know, when you die you will go to heaven and good things will happen to you. But there is a more practical and immediate result that you will experience. I don't know what happens when you die, because I need to check that out.
Speaker 2:That'll be your next book.
Speaker 4:We don't have to wait till that. That'll be your next book. We don't have to wait till that. What happens when you have hate and greed and jealousy and fear? When you have uncontrollable desires? Guess what happens? Your mind is overactive and it cannot stop itself. Because you hate somebody, your mind is constantly thinking about that. When you're greedy for something, you want it so badly. When you're obsessed, the more active your mind is, the less the quality of your life is, the more peaceful your mind is.
Speaker 4:You will climb up the pyramid and you will see that the quality of your life goes up and at the ultimate, when your mind is completely quiet, you experience the jackpot of life. So it's where you want to operate. You can operate down and have a mind that is constantly fraught with all kinds of things and you will live a poor life. And it doesn't matter if you have a billion dollars in the bank. Billionaires there are so many billionaires who are absolutely miserable in their lives and you can listen to them on TV and you can tell this is not a person who really is happy. And so all of us, me included, we have to think about how do we make the mind more peaceful, because, as the mind becomes more peaceful, my experience of life becomes better and better. The circumstances don't change Because I become peaceful in mind. It doesn't mean that my mortgage company will say, ah, don't worry, you're so peaceful.
Speaker 4:Please don't, you don't need to pay us for three months, it does not work that way we're good, yeah, right.
Speaker 4:I still still have to do. I still have to order loving, I still need to pay the bills. Right, I cannot call my energy provider and say, ah, I have been so peaceful, and they go no, no, don't worry, six months don't have to pay energy. In fact, all they want right now is to charge me more because energy prices are going up. So we all have to. At circumstances do not change, yeah, and yet the experience of my life becomes better and better the more peaceful I become. What a fascinating thing it is and that I cannot control the circumstances. Horrible things keep happening, things. Life is going to keep doing whatever it wants to. It's a roller coaster. What is in my absolute control is how peaceful I make my mind.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, this makes me think like and both of us do a lot of this in our work, but there's a famous Carl Jung quote which is like we don't solve our problems, we grow larger than them. And I talk about that a lot with clients that you may come in here wanting to fix the outside, like you said, change the circumstance or even feel really attached to needing that. And it is a process often I mean more and more as even the years go on in my work. It is that like guiding someone to tune inward to self. It's not teaching them things, it's more like that invitation to really go to that inner place that already shines and already has space for everything and has a life force that's inspired and open.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and how do I you know when we say, what happens when the mind becomes peaceful is that same circumstance does not have as strong a hold on me as it did before. Right, most of the time I am obsessed in life, and you know what I'm obsessed about. This happens to everyone. We're obsessed with controlling others. Yeah, in our marriages, what do we do? We control the spouse. We want to control the spouse. Kelly is laughing. Definitely, josh knows Kelly. Close your ears. You're newly married. I do not want to. Your sweet husband is leading to the conversation. Y'all are in bliss. Please talk to me in 10 years.
Speaker 1:Yes, I'm sure.
Speaker 4:That? Who's not recently married, who's been married 10 years. What do we do in marriages? You know, the husband is trying to control the wife, the wife is trying to control the husband, or if you know, there are two husbands or two wives, but you're always trying to control the spouse because you're trying to shape the spouse to fit in your way of looking at things and your expectations. Right, and they say, well, opposites attract, yeah, sounds really romantic, right, and then you get married and then you find opposites drive you crazy because you are trying to change. I need to go become a Hollywood script writer. Right, opposites attract, but we're not just doing that with spouses. Guess what? Yeah, opposite attract, but this is. But we're not just doing that with spouses. Guess what. We do that with our kids. We do that with our parents. As parents age, we want the parents to behave and think in the fashion we want.
Speaker 4:We're constantly obsessed with controlling others. Yeah, our expectations. When I, you know, when you get on the freeway, we expect all the traffic should disappear. Everybody else should go back because I need to get to work or to a meeting or someplace fast so that nobody else should be there. We're all trying to control life and in that obsession, we get more and more disturbed. We are constantly. We want that promotion, we want our stocks to go up, we want the neighbor to not bother us, we want right, we want our friends to always like us. It is this constant desire, this need for adulation, not just among us movie stars, even movie stars you watch them who have had so much success. You know what they have. They have fear of failure. You go you've had 10 movies that have been blockbusters and they're afraid that the 11th movie is going to flop. And, god forbid, they deliver three flops. They know that their career is hanging by the thread. And that fear. And you go wow, you are worth $200 million or whatever. And you live in fear because they miss. It's not just the money aspect, but they want the adulation. They want people to continue to love them. Nobody wants to feel ignored, right? Yeah? And so then life becomes so difficult. And and it's all back to you, kelly, you asked me a beautiful question earlier on uh, the the title of my book happy soul, hungry mind. The mind is constantly hungry, so it's it's always, you know, it's always seeking more.
Speaker 4:I give you a billion dollars and then you wake up and you say, okay, that's great. How do I turn this into two? What do I do with this, this, how do I make this? How do I go out? Or maybe I have all the money I need. Now I need something else. Maybe I need love.
Speaker 4:And then somebody should come and love me for who I am? Not because of the billion dollars, welcome. Because you're now afraid to tell somebody you've got a billion dollars. Or if you tell them now you think they only love you because of the billion dollars, what a trap, yeah, what a trap. You go.
Speaker 4:I was happy when I didn't have the billion dollars because I could just live. I didn't have to think about this constantly, right? And so you go. What you have? A billion dollars. Are you kidding me? And you go no, no, I'm sorry, I'm, I'm really unhappy because I'm with people and they come across as so plastic, my relationships are so superficial, oh my God. And you say that that billion dollars is really not a blessing. So then I have to go away somewhere, in a village, in a remote part of the world, where they don't care about billion dollars and they treat you like a human being, and you live there and you go wow, this is love. And when they care for you as a human being and you go this is what I want. And you go.
Speaker 4:Well, if this is what you want, then why were you desiring for that billion dollars so badly? So the mind is so complex. When it has stuff, it says this is not good enough, it takes it for granted. You'd look at successful people. We are all chasing outcomes. We all think, oh, if I have that penthouse in New York overlooking Central Park, then I will have arrived, or I buy that mansion, or I buy that sports car, or I create that company, and then I IPO on New York Stock Exchange, then I'll be happy. We're all waiting for those outcomes and all we are doing is making our minds work faster and faster and faster and faster. And we are not experiencing peace, we're not experiencing the most wondrous aspect of our life. How utterly should I say it stupid is that.
Speaker 1:Well, it is so interesting to think about like this life force that's just right there. So much striving on the outside for the outcome really does block out that ability to experience your own inspiration. That's right there, a living thing, and you know it can even fool you into being something that you like, or that's interesting, you know, or something you're suffering over. That really gets really distracts you from the actual, like vitality in there.
Speaker 4:Yes, and even religion, even the relationship with God. What is the relationship with God? It's because people want to keep asking God for stuff, either in this world or the next world. They're constantly asking. And who is asking? The mind is asking, the mind is hungry, so the mind has already material. Now it wants. Okay, god itself should be there as a concierge service for the mind. Has, you know, has, has already material, now it wants okay, god itself should be there as a concierge service for the mind I have a relationship with god.
Speaker 4:So I expect, forget me controlling my spouse. And now I want to control god. I want god to give me all of this. That is the relationship people have with women when people pray. What is it that they're praying for? That is the relationship people have with women when people pray. What is it that they're praying for? We say, oh, pray, pray, pray. But what are we teaching our kids Pray? They kneel down and pray for what? For?
Speaker 2:things that they want in life.
Speaker 4:Guess what is happening when they're praying. The mind is active. Thank you very much. As long as your mind is active, you excuse for the bad language are screwinging yourself. I don't care if you're praying. Can you pray without asking for anything? Can you pray so that you become completely quiet? Can you stop hungering for god? Can you just exist? Try that and see how your life begins to transform, how you awaken to a life that is in your reach, that capability that is available 24-7.
Speaker 4:Experience that Transform, that Forget running outside need. We all need to do that. We all need to get up in the work, get up in the morning, work, earn money or, if you have money, then you know, enjoy the money. We all need to do that. But experience that which is self-evident, that is shining within you. Let it shine. Let it shine, please let it shine, and it waits with open arms. It will never question you. The sun will shine through. It will never say, oh, you had so many clouds so I'm upset, I will not shine through. No, the sun is not affected by the clouds, no matter. These clouds could be good clouds that bring rain. Those clouds could be fire-generated clouds. Dusty, those clouds could be from a bomb, it doesn't matter. The sun is unaffected by the clouds. As soon as the clouds dissipate, the sun will shine through. Friends, please let your life forces that is within you shine through, life forces that is within you shine through.
Speaker 1:This makes me wonder, you know, and maybe this is almost antithetical to what we're talking about, but this, of course, makes me think, like if someone were to come to you and say, like give me one practice to quiet the mind, would you encourage, like meditation, or what might you respond with?
Speaker 4:Would you encourage, like meditation, or what might you respond with? Yes, absolutely. Meditation is this incredible capability and I have to you know. So there are so many, there are hundreds of techniques for meditation, and people confuse it with concentration. Meditation is not concentration. Meditation is not something you do. Meditation is something that happens to you. All you have to do, and this takes time.
Speaker 4:So on YouTube I have a video called Simplest, most Powerful Meditation, and I think it's a 20-minute long video, but all that the video says is just sit down, be comfortable, turn off all distractions, don't have the TV running or a phone or music playing. Just sit down and you don't even you know some people talk about you have to watch the thoughts. You have to do this. You have to hold your breath, you have to recite something or do something. My method is simple Just sit down and naturally you will find your eyes closed and just be comfortable. You do not have to be in any position. You can sit whatever makes you comfortable and just be, and then immediately, what is going to happen for most people is that, as soon as they sit down, the mind will fire up and it will start firing on all cylinders. You'll get so many thoughts and it's okay. You say, okay, if you, the mind wants to do this, go ahead.
Speaker 4:So how do you quiet an energetic puppy? If you try and restrain him, he's going to become more violent, he's going to fight you If he has a lot of energy and you try to put him down and say, no, you're going to sit, you're going to sit, you're going to sit. Really really difficult, really really difficult. What you have to do is, if you want the the puppy to to quiet down, is to let him run and you go okay, go, run, run, run, run. And the puppy begins to run and he runs and runs and runs, and runs and runs and expends all his energy. And then he's tired, he has spent all his energy. He'll come and sit at your feet. Now you nudge him and he says go, go, go, puppy, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go run. Again he goes I'm not going anywhere, I'm going to just sit here.
Speaker 4:The mind is the same thing. You, if the mind, you sit and the mind wants to think about all of the things that it wants to do, you say, okay, let it run, let it run, let it run. And you sit the first day and it runs, and you sit the second day and it runs the third day, it runs the 30th day, it is still running. The 100th day it is running the 200th day, it is still running.
Speaker 4:But soon, at some point, there will come a point where, between all of these thoughts that come, there will come just a very brief, momentary, a small moment of silence, maybe just very brief, and will come and will disappear. And then the next thoughts will come and you keep sitting. You, every day, you show up and you sit down, you show up and you sit down. There will come a point when these moments of silence will start showing up more and then you keep sitting down, you keep sitting down, you keep sitting down, you keep sitting down, you keep sitting down. Automatically, the moments of silence will become longer. You keep sitting down and you keep sitting down and you keep sitting down. That's it. No expectations, nothing. You're not trying to concentrate. I think there will come a time when the mind will be quieter for longer durations and thinking for shorter durations, and the great sages and saints who explain the phenomenon of meditation are those people who could sit for long durations of time and be completely still with no thoughts. Yeah.
Speaker 4:And so we all have that capability. The only thing that we have to do is be regular and have no expectations. I also add this you know we live in this world of Instagram and Facebook and trying to show everything. You know, I bought this new phone, I bought a new shirt, everything we want to share. You never share your meditation experiences. You never share and, in fact, you don't even dwell on it. You don't think to yourself ah, you know that last Saturday I sat down and had a wonderful experience and then I have not had it. No, please, you do not think. This is not the regular exercise.
Speaker 4:Everything in the world, you compare. You say, yeah, do I have more money than last year? Do I look better than I did three months ago? Since I started existing, you're always comparing. There's benchmark.
Speaker 4:When it comes to meditation, you do not. And why do you never compare? You do not share it with others, you do not compare it with yourself. Because as soon as you compare or you begin to share, who crashes the party? Your own mind, and that's who we are trying to get down, to calm down. So if you have expectations in meditation, the mind will keep crashing the party. You do not keep expecting. You do not keep a calendar. You know this guy, ravi, came on the podcast for wise mind and he said oh, do it on the 100th day, the 200th day, and I've been doing it for 442 days. And that guy was all bogus. I've been looking for the damn glimpse and I do not see the glimpse. Let me find his telephone number and call him. Yeah, well, if that person called, I said yeah, you keep this up and it will be the 10th thousand day and you'll still be waiting for the glimpse.
Speaker 4:Do not have any expectations. Can you just sit and be? That is all your job is. You don't have to do anything. You know there is a billion dollar industry about meditation apps. You know they'll put musics and stuff like that, that which you already possess. Just be quiet. If you use an aid, what will happen is the mind will get attached to the aid. It's like training wheels. You will get attached to the training wheels and then you will miss the training wheels. Why use you, know they training wheels? Why? Why use you know they give all these techniques? You know? Focus on a candle and think about some god or recite this mantra, all kinds of stuff. Or can you just be? Yeah, just be, and you don't don't look for peace, have no expectations, just be.
Speaker 4:I in in the book, I I say you know. People say I am floating in the swimming pool, I'm floating on water and that you know. The english language is so imprecise. You're not floating, all you're doing is lying still and water is floating you but no capability to float. That is, that is bs. Excuse me. All you have the ability to do is lie still. Yeah, okay, b you say I am floating, excuse, excuse me, stop taking more credit than it is due. I am floating. No, I am not meditating. All I am doing is just being. That's it. You cannot float, you cannot meditate. Meditate happens to you, meditate, meditate happens to you. You say I am digesting an apple. No, you're not digesting an apple. All you did was eat the apple.
Speaker 4:Digestion is happening automatically. Just be, just lie still and water will float you. I love that. How simple is this? Yeah, how simple is this. I am describing the greatest science on earth, the most profound, most important subject on earth. I don't think I have used a word that a fifth grader is not going to understand. Yeah. Because this needs to be understandable by a fifth grader. Yeah, just be, just lie. Still, that's it.
Speaker 2:Yeah well, one I could listen to speak for another couple hours, um, but I think two things that are coming to mind just anecdotally, because I do have children and I've talked about them on the podcast before but yeah, that control, wanting to control them, and then also trying to model for them, which you know, that never works right, like trying to control them, and then it just becomes more frustrating for them.
Speaker 2:It becomes more frustrating for me, but also this trying to model for them, because we have this like ongoing conversation of like well, I'm bored, and so they look to me or my wife for like entertainment for them, and you know, one of my kids will say to me well, you're fine being bored, you just sit there and drink your coffee. And in this discussion it makes me think, well, I'm, I'm practicing just being. That's not boring to me, like and I'm trying to model, and I and I say to them I'm not bored, like I'm just kind of trying to be in that moment this is the greatest enjoyment to me right this is not, I am relishing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a great word yeah, I'm gonna drop that on them for sure Like. I'm relishing this moment right now of just like being and I'm trying to model that we don't have to be doing anything, we can just be, and there's a lot that can come from just being.
Speaker 2:And I remember also too I had this like very thin book and I hope I don't butcher his name, but thick tick, not han oh, yeah, yeah um, famous buddhist, and literally the book was how to sit, and and it was just so profoundly like and it came from a more buddhist tradition, but just like, let's get down to brass tacks, like how do you sit? How are you sitting in your life and you know no judgment, but you're probably doing it wrong. Like, let's learn how to just sit and just be, which is what, exactly what you're speaking to?
Speaker 4:Yeah, you know, we are all. We are so blessed to live in the modern world, where we have all the comforts of society, and yet we fail to relish life. Yeah, you know, I don't have to go out and hunt for food or grow food. I don't have to heat up the water. I, I get water that you know I can. I can choose cold water, hot water. I can go into the store and I have so much food.
Speaker 4:Uh, the ac runs all the time and, and it's just, I live in a beautiful house. I do not have to deal with wire dynamo. I have all the comforts we all do, and yet we're complaining all the time Because the mind is hungry. We take this all for granted and we forget to relish. I got to do this, I got to do this, I got to do this, I got to do this. I need to live up to others' expectations. I need to live up to my expectations. The self-pressure that we put on ourselves, I mean, that's what's killing us. That's what's killing us and it's robbing us of our life experience.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I mean I so appreciate you coming. Our life experience, yeah, yeah, I mean I so appreciate you coming on and sharing, yeah, and would love to have you on again at some point because there's so much that I feel like we could go so many different directions.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally, and I did download your book and I'm going to dive further into it. But, yeah, any last things you want to share as we kind of wrap up this portion of the pod.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I would love for people to remember this. Spirituality is simple. Spirituality is practical. Spirituality is non-religious. Spirituality does not discriminate. Spirituality is available to you 24-7. It is your birthright. Spirituality is in your DNA. No one can deny you your own birthright.
Speaker 1:Okay, I love that. Yeah appreciate that. Yeah, okay. So maybe now we'll kind of shift over to our lighter not that I mean this was both light and profound in every way, but our more, as we say, good, clean, fun section where we'll talk about how wise is it.
Speaker 2:How wise is it.
Speaker 1:And we have a question for today that comes from John, so tell us our how wise is it? And we have a question for today that comes from john, so tell us our. How wise is it topic?
Speaker 2:yes, which will require a definition, which is important. But the the how wise is it? Question is how wise is it to have tchotchkes? Yes, which tchotchke is a, we believe, yiddish term yeah and it believes, or at least north translation, a small object that is decorative rather than strictly functional. So synonyms could be a trinket or a knick-knack.
Speaker 1:Yeah, knick-knacks. Trinkets, tchotchkes, stuff, kind of just like stuff, yeah, it's like stuff, it's like collections.
Speaker 2:How wise is it to have tchotchkes?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Did you grow up in a house with tchotchkes? Yeah, yeah, have you. Did you grow up in a house with tchotchkes? So, or nicknames, great question I.
Speaker 1:I think I'm somewhere in the middle. I definitely didn't have a house, grow up in a house with tons of tchotchkes, and my mom is very into organization and that's fertile ground for tchotchkes probably well oh, but that isn't no, I.
Speaker 1:It's more along the lines of like keep it in order, keep it neat. My, I will say my, biggest experience of tchotchkes would be shout out to my friend, kathleen, who was my roommate for five years, who loves tchotchkes more than anyone I've ever met and could find something, you know, at a gas station that she's like. I must have and cherish this forever.
Speaker 2:Um, and yeah, I think I learned about myself there that I am not a tchotchke person were they like from her travels or did she have like a collection of things like because when I think of tchotchkes I also think of like precious moments dolls. Sure yes, and like people who collect, like more ornamental type of things, yeah, yes, but it doesn't have to be yeah. Because I feel like when I was a kid, I liked my dresser to have like a lot of like stuff on it.
Speaker 1:Oh, interesting.
Speaker 2:Like, but not maybe a collection. Like I would have action figures.
Speaker 3:I don't know if those count as like, but I would like to set them up and things yeah, so maybe that doesn't qualify.
Speaker 2:But yeah. I feel like that was something I really liked.
Speaker 1:Right, okay. And how about you, ravi, when you think of this like stuff all around trinkets.
Speaker 4:Yeah, you know, and, and thank you, I, I you know before the call started, you'll you'll help me understand what Chasky is, because I didn't know what the word stood for.
Speaker 4:I appreciate learning from y'all, um, you know, and and so I don't know that. Uh, I'm looking around my office, you know, I, I have small stuff, uh, but mainly, but mainly, it's stuff that my kids gave me when they were really young, when they didn't have money and we would be in. I remember we were in Alaska and my son was maybe nine years old and we went into a store and it was, you know, it was a little small figurine of of, of, of a bear and two little bears, and it says I, I love papa, and he said I want to buy this. Right, he didn't have money and and I, it touched me. I didn't know that, a child that young yeah right and and so I have that.
Speaker 4:I, um, uh, I, I cherish that. Uh, yeah, that's sentimental, you know it's it, it is, and and I look at it and now I'm you know it's it's been, um, I don't know, 15 years. It's been a long time since that time, but that just looking at it can evoke, yeah, yes, feeling right, and so you experience, and now I can, I can talk to him as a grown man, but that little figurine evokes a different, different memory actually, and so you know people who that which it's all back to the comfort that our mind looks for and needs, right, because we want that, we want to experience that. I want to share a tip, if I may, with your audiences quickly.
Speaker 4:If you, especially if you have younger kids, you know kids grow up really fast. You blink your eyes and, kelly, this will be useful when you have your own kids, right when they're young or as they're growing up. Go into the room where they're sitting or playing. Don't interact with them, stand at the door and watch them for 30 seconds and capture that memory in your own mind, because we capture things on our phone and cameras and we take pictures and videos, but that is still on electronic memory media. When we capture a memory and we deliberately say I am capturing this very moment. 20 years from that day, you will still remember it and it will give you the warmth that something on electronic media will not be able to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I like that idea of eliciting those warm feelings. How old are?
Speaker 4:your kids, John.
Speaker 2:So my kids are 10 and 7, but going to be 8 in October, and I do have things that they've made or like I still have them. And it's interesting because sometimes my oldest especially would be like do you still have that? And I'll be like, yeah, and he'll, he'll notice it and he'll be like why do you still have that? And it's like, well, you gave it to me, like you made it, you know, and and I think it's it's meaningful to even have that interaction of like wow, you kept that thing for this long, whether he's saying it or not, like you still have that thing. And so, yeah, this idea of like those trinkets or chachkis, I think it's wise if it evokes those types of warm like feelings or or memories from them yeah, I think you know it's interesting.
Speaker 4:You said that I'm looking at my wall and there are only two things behind my, uh, my computer screen on the wall and one of them is a letter that my son wrote to me. Uh, he was, he was really young, he couldn't write uh, english properly then. But I, I took that letter and I what is the word you know, you put it in plastic. I forget what it's called now Laminate, and now I have it on the wall and his English. Someday, maybe on the next show, I'll bring it. But he says when I first saw you, I thought. Says when I first saw you, I thought you were an alien, when I thought everyone was an alien.
Speaker 4:And so you know, you can see the level that's so funny you know, and so it's just a crazy little thing yeah, reminds you of that time.
Speaker 1:It's just right there, so yeah that's so funny.
Speaker 2:My, when I was geez, I don't even know how old I was, I must have been like seven or eight, and my aunt and uncle still bring this up they don't have kids, but they they moved to a new place and we went to help them move and you know I wasn't that helpful. I was seven or eight years old at the time. But I went, like shopping and I found, you know, like the section of the grocery store or whatever like that just has like random stuff. I found this little, really not attractive looking brown bunny that had these bright red eyes, it almost looked possessed like it was, and and I picked it out and I was like, well, I'm gonna get this for them as a housewarming gift, and and they still you are the psychologist.
Speaker 4:You tell us what that yeah. What does that mean?
Speaker 2:yeah, so they, they still have it and it's. It's only gotten more terrifying with a. I mean mean it looks like why did I pick that out? But they've, you know, they have it in their home and it is a little bit of like a tchotchke type item, cause it just pretty much collects dust and it really serves no purpose other than the fact that they were like well, what eight year old buys a housewarming?
Speaker 4:gift and I used my own money for you know, and so um even if this is is even
Speaker 2:if it's possessed and they are listeners of the podcast. So, jim and John, if you're listening, but, it's in there, you know. You enter their condo and it's right there. And this brown possessed bunny.
Speaker 1:And so, yeah, that's so sweet. I love that.
Speaker 4:You said doesn't serve a purpose. It may serve a purpose to remind them to keep a distance.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it might also keep intruders out. Yeah.
Speaker 4:We never know when it will break through.
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally, it might come alive at some point. It might start attacking them.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I'll take it. I'll have them send a picture of it.
Speaker 1:We'll post it somewhere so that people can see how evil looking this rabbit is yeah, well, you know what's funny I'm coming around to tchotchkes because I think I probably was a little bit anti-tchotchke and now, with all these sentimental stories, like maybe it is something to embrace more and I do really like if I go into someone else's house and see little things on their mantle or whatever that do have significance to them, I think it is so nice. So maybe it is wise to have tchotchkes. We haven't gotten Josh's thoughts just yet.
Speaker 5:Yeah, I think the more space we have in our house because right now we're in a pretty small space. I mean, I'm looking around just to kind of figure out how many tchotchkes we have. What do we have here that you would consider a tchotchke? Would you say nothing, or a few? Like maybe these christmas ornaments that we couldn't hang up, that we have on the bookshelf yeah, we don't have a ton of tchotchkes no, but I feel like we have some items like on our bar cart.
Speaker 5:We have, uh, a couple records by bands that we really like there's a photo of kelly as a young girl. We have a couple records by bands that we really like. There's a photo of Kelly as a young girl. We have, like a picture, a glugfish picture that we use sometimes at a party to fill water, we got that thing on the front that we put like on our front mantle.
Speaker 1:What do you call?
Speaker 5:that Like our front table yeah.
Speaker 1:But you know, they all are functional.
Speaker 5:They're all somewhat functional. Yeah, the ornaments aren't functional.
Speaker 1:Right, but those go on the tree. But we couldn't put them on the tree.
Speaker 5:They were actually dysfunctional.
Speaker 2:They function on your tree.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So now, instead of putting them on the tree, they're on our bookshelf.
Speaker 5:So maybe we need to get a few more tchotchkes. I'm pro tchotchke. I think it can quickly veer into a space where it maybe feels like hoarding or it feels, yeah, right stressing me out, but I've got attachment to stuff sure, yeah, but I, I think I like the feeling of looking at an object which you know, you know, which I feel when I see the childhood picture of you. Yeah, and when I see the the records on our um. We don't really have a record collection, but we just have one on the bar.
Speaker 4:Yeah, john started our record collection for us, like the band spoon let me, let me jump in and advise for you go buy a tchotchke which expresses your love for kelly yeah, there we go.
Speaker 5:I would love that. That's a good weekend project we could each go find a tchotchke yes oh, that'd be yes, to get your tchotchke how cool would that be.
Speaker 4:And then you can show it to your uh audience once you buy it.
Speaker 5:Yeah I love that good audience interaction okay, so it's wise and maybe let's expand it the world of instagram.
Speaker 4:Maybe you get your audience members to share their tchotchkes yeah, yes, okay, that's a good idea.
Speaker 1:Let's do it let's do it. That's a call to action to all our listeners to get a tchotchke.
Speaker 4:Email us pictures. I managed to stay all the way up to here, yeah email us all of your pictures of your tchotchkes.
Speaker 2:Yeah well, thank you so so much for joining us, Ravi. It's been amazing.
Speaker 1:Do you want to, um, you know, tell people where they can find you find your book, all that stuff?
Speaker 4:Yes, they can. They can, uh, uh, they can visit my website, spiritualitywithhimcom. They can buy the book happy soul, hungry mind, on uh, on Amazon, on Kindle, on uh audible and Spotify and in in version. Or, if they want to save 20 bucks, uh, they can listen to the entire audiobook on youtube for free. I'd rather they purchase the book, but if they wanted to save it, they, they. You can listen to the entire book on on youtube. It's there. The entire audiobook is is there on on youtube. So, wow, listen to it and and, uh, yeah, contemplate, and then you know my, my contact information is available so you can send me email or call me if you have a question. This is the most important thing in our lives, friends. So I'm I'm happy to answer the questions and if there are a lot of similar questions, then I will wait for Kelly and John to call me back and I'll come back and we'll answer all those questions. Absolutely, we would love that.
Speaker 1:We would love that. Well, thank you so much. And John you want to plug? Yes.
Speaker 2:Please send me your tchotchke pictures immediately. You can email me at buttsbutzjonathan at gmailcom.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you can find me at kkpsychotherapycom if you want to work with me or write in about the pod, ask questions. Ask questions about Ravi and his appearance on the pod and all that you can reach me there. And how about Josh?
Speaker 5:You can find me at joshbayer B-A-Y-E-R filmscom and I will edit anything from a documentary to a clip for this podcast, and I do filming and directing as well. Okay, Okay Well thank you so much again and thanks everyone for listening and we'll be with you next week.
Speaker 1:Bye.
Speaker 4:Bye, thank you. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1:The Wise Mind Happy Hour podcast is for entertainment purposes only, not to be treated as medical advice. If you are struggling with your mental health, please seek medical attention or counseling.