the wisdom of using HUMOR to cope 💅 + the new TAYLOR SWIFT album

Humor: an elusive beast. When does it help us connect, and when does it actually inhibit connection? We explore the peaks and valleys of laughing through the pain.

- music by blanket forts -

Chapters

• 0:00 Warm-Up: Weeks, Kids, Book Club
• 1:45 Climate Psychology And Therapy Lens
• 6:40 Solo Parenting Wins And Play
• 13:20 Nieces, Kids’ TV, And Bluey Praise
• 20:55 Shared Rooms, Sibling Bonds, Family Stories
• 27:10 Pop Culture Pivot: Taylor’s New Album
• 35:30 Art, Evolution, And Audience Expectations
• 42:00 Main Topic: Using Humor To Cope
• 52:30 Self-Deprecation, Defense, And Depth
• 1:02:40 Owning vs Avoiding With Jokes
• 1:12:10 Timing, Authenticity, And Funniness
• 1:20:40 How Wise Is It: Prime Day

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:04

Welcome to the Wisemind Happy Hour. I'm John.

SPEAKER_03: 0:07

I'm Kelly. Welcome.

SPEAKER_01: 0:08

We're glad that you're here. You're resident therapists. Yeah. So what's new, Kelly? It's been a full week.

SPEAKER_02: 0:17

I know. I know. And I do feel like I just talked your ear off about some of my off-mic ramblings about the week.

SPEAKER_01: 0:24

It's hard to wait to get recording.

SPEAKER_02: 0:25

I know. It is. It genuinely is. Unless we like had the mics like hot the second you walked in the door. Right. It it's pretty hard. So, but I'm I'm genuinely curious about your week and then we can go to me.

SPEAKER_01: 0:35

Uh my week was good. Um, I had book club on Friday, which was nice. I didn't know you were in a book club. Yeah, book club. And we just started a new book, which was actually very topical. Um, it is about climate change. Oh, I know, but it's topical because fake news. It's climate. The title is Climate, Psychology, and Change Reimagining Psychotherapy in an era of global disruption and climate anxiety.

SPEAKER_03: 1:03

Oh, wow. So, like the psyche's response to wow.

SPEAKER_01: 1:08

So, yeah, the book club was great. It was, we were just diving into like how you know working with people can be such a like singular internal, you're in an office with somebody, and this is such a thing, right? A global thing that's happening. And it's like, how do we work with our patients individually, but also like with a global lens? And yeah, it's just so interesting. And also just all of these factors of like, you know, we're privileged to live in a part of the world that isn't as affected by it right now as so many other places, right? And so, and even as I was talking about it, I was getting anxious because I was like noticing, like, ooh, when I start to think about it too much, yeah, I wanna like dip. Like, I don't, I don't want to think about it, you know. So, yeah, book club was interesting, and it was a book club with other practitioners and therapists and just trying to figure out how to navigate space, not just with global everything, but specifically climate. So I know. So that was my Friday, which was great, lighthearted going into the weekend.

SPEAKER_02: 2:09

Totally, totally. How did you find the book club?

SPEAKER_01: 2:12

Um, co-worker started it, gave the recommendation.

SPEAKER_02: 2:16

I love that. Is it on Zoom?

SPEAKER_01: 2:17

No, it isn't personally.

SPEAKER_02: 2:19

Oh, that's incredible. I know.

SPEAKER_01: 2:20

Is there like drinking and stuff? There wasn't at this one, okay, but maybe in future ones, because this was like the first meeting of the minds. But um, so yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 2:29

What do they call it? The what's the term when it's like the first the maiden voyage? Yeah, it's the but it's like the inaugural. Inaugural, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 2:37

The inaugural screamed that into the mic. Inaugural, maiden voyage, yeah. Okay, that's so that was Friday, and then uh my weekend was actually I was uh solo parenting because Sarah was out of town, she was on the East Coast, she left you, and yeah, exactly. So um, so I I was just me and the boys, and it was great. They were they had their social calendars were packed this weekend. It was great, so they were like really busy out and about, and it actually they kind of worked out really well that it was their plans were like almost like staggered a little bit, so one would be out, and then I got to spend time just like one-on-one with one, and then it would almost like switch. So it was really nice, it was like a guy's weekend, and at the same time, like I got some really good individual time with each one of them.

SPEAKER_02: 3:29

So I know always being bored, and we got our haircuts together. Wow, yeah, I like your haircut. Oh, thanks.

SPEAKER_01: 3:36

Yeah, so it's a little bit shorter. So I saw Wes get his and I was like, I'm gonna go short.

SPEAKER_02: 3:40

Nice.

SPEAKER_01: 3:41

I know. So we did the we did the men's grooming. I mean, it was just it was great.

SPEAKER_02: 3:45

That's great. Do they like having the weekend with you?

SPEAKER_01: 3:50

They hate it. No, I I mean, you know, it was I think the sweetest thing was the both of them at different parts of the weekend just kind of observed and made comments of like, this is fun to do things just us, you know, like the especially the one-on-one. Um totally. And my oldest was kind of like, We we should do this more often. Cause I got into his like zone in my own like childhood zone. My youngest went to the Chicago Fire soccer game on Saturday. So immediately when he left, I said in my oldest, I was like, hey, I was like, Do you want to like play video games and have a home run derby? And he was like, Yeah. And so we went downstairs and we were just like doing a home run derby together against each other. Like, how do you do that?

SPEAKER_02: 4:33

Like you you set the game up so it's derby.

SPEAKER_01: 4:36

Yeah, so it's home run derby. And then we picked four. I mean, the video games are so insanely detailed now that it's crazy. So we picked the way we set it up was you got to pick four um players. I'm good, two Hall of Famers and two current players, and that was your team.

SPEAKER_04: 4:53

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_01: 4:54

Versus, you know, another two Hall of Famers and another cool two current players. So it was fun. Kevin Costner is in there. Oh, for sure. Absolutely. All of the actors from any baseball movie you want, or Bull Durham, he's in two grade. Oh, yeah, that's right. That's right. Um, yeah, so it was it was just very enjoyable. And then it's always nice, you know, when your partner comes back and you get to see that reconnection and reconnect. So it was nice. Totally.

SPEAKER_02: 5:22

Oh, nice.

SPEAKER_01: 5:23

Oh, I love that. It was a great weekend. Yeah, kept me busy though. They were like social. And actually, Shane, my youngest, got invited to a movie night at a friend's house on Friday. And the mom who invited us was like, It's great, we got parents staying, like, feel free to stay if you want. And I was like, What movie are you gonna watch? And they're like, We're gonna watch Ocean's Eleven. I was like, I'm on board. And Shane was like, You're not coming.

SPEAKER_02: 5:46

Shane's like, stop right there. Exactly. I was like, What?

SPEAKER_03: 5:50

I was like so glad.

SPEAKER_02: 5:52

Like, I feel such a deep sense of relief in my body that you have a child that's like, get the fuck out of here.

SPEAKER_01: 5:57

I was like, What? I want to watch Oceans 11. Um, he was like, Dad, you're not coming. And I was like, that's fair. But um, so yeah, so dropped him off, and you're watching Oceans 11 by yourself. Was talking, was talking to the other uh the mom who you know she was hosting and she was like, You can still stay. I was like, actually, I can't. Actually, I've been told. But it was great. It was like, well, let him do his thing, be independent, and he's starting to, you know, have those types of more independent kind of like outings, which is great. Yeah, I'm glad that he didn't want me to because that's like healthy attack. Absolutely, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02: 6:36

What now, what would Wes have done in the same scenario? Would he have been like even any different, like trying to please you or how is it?

SPEAKER_01: 6:45

I think it would it would literally be however he's he would he would say if he didn't want to, and he would be open, he would totally be open to like, oh yeah, there's gonna be some other parents there, sure, like stay and hang out. I mean, I think he would probably gravitate towards like, no, I'll just be fine by myself because he's just at that age. Yeah, but I mean, I think he's fine with the parents hanging out.

SPEAKER_02: 7:06

So that's great.

SPEAKER_01: 7:08

I know, but ocean's love, I was you know, because I would I didn't know what movie she was like, Yeah, we're having this movie night. And I was like, well, maybe it'll be like a Pixar film or something like that. When she said Ocean's 11. It's like a real movie. I'm like, I don't care how many times I see that movie, that movie's entertaining.

SPEAKER_02: 7:21

Yeah, it is. The first one, the first one, and skip the next one, and then yeah, I never saw 13, but I've got an eight's great. Oh, the women, yeah, it's great. I don't think I saw that, but I wanted to. It's really good. I feel like I just never got around to it, but yeah, wow.

SPEAKER_01: 7:36

So that was that was kind of my guy's uh weekend. Nice okay.

SPEAKER_02: 7:42

I so we were talking about this earlier, but I went to my brother's in Cleveland, and yeah, there it was really nice to see my nieces. There was a lot going on. It was like a busy weekend. And how many nieces do you have again? I have three. They're five, three, and two. And they're so adorable and so rambunctious, and it was so fun. Yeah, but yeah, we watched a little bit more, a little less Oceans 11, a little more Paw Patrol.

SPEAKER_01: 8:07

Well, Paw Patrol is a classic.

SPEAKER_02: 8:10

Who's your favorite uh pup? So I have this disease where like the minutes on the TV, my eyes kind of like cross and I don't know what's happening. It's like football. When football's on, I'm sort of glazed.

SPEAKER_01: 8:20

It's not a disease, that's a protective measure because those are yeah, but what color did you remember a color?

SPEAKER_02: 8:26

So the is it that there's like the the paw patrol are the dogs, or that they're that's the kids. I don't actually know which group is the paw patrol.

SPEAKER_01: 8:36

So there's only there's Ryder, who's the leader of the Paw Patrol, he's an actual human.

SPEAKER_02: 8:40

Okay, I think that's Sertia's favorite.

SPEAKER_01: 8:42

Okay, so he's the human. Yeah, and then there's all of the pups.

SPEAKER_02: 8:46

Oh, okay. I really didn't know.

SPEAKER_01: 8:50

And they all have a different vehicle that has a different capability.

SPEAKER_02: 8:53

Yeah. Well, let's all be real too. I was like fully on my phone.

SPEAKER_01: 8:57

Yeah, I mean, you're not consuming this.

SPEAKER_02: 9:00

Yeah, I like that.

SPEAKER_01: 9:01

You mean you and Josh are not watching season after season of this?

SPEAKER_02: 9:04

Yeah. We I feel like the ones we've engaged with, like the only one you can really engage with is Bluey.

SPEAKER_01: 9:09

Bluey is it's like funny. It's funny, it's well written.

SPEAKER_02: 9:14

Yeah, the accents are cute.

SPEAKER_01: 9:15

Yeah, it's not as formulaic as Paw Patrol and all the other shows are.

SPEAKER_02: 9:20

Yeah, like Paw Patrol is definitely for the kids.

SPEAKER_01: 9:23

Oh, yeah, for sure. There's no yeah, and kids love it.

SPEAKER_02: 9:27

So yeah, they were watching a lot of that, which was fun. But yeah, it was it was definitely fun to see them and like wake up with them and hang out with them. It was like a ton of work, like stepping in for my brother. Well, it was a lot of work.

SPEAKER_01: 9:40

Remember, one is like two, two is like three, and three is like five.

SPEAKER_02: 9:45

Oh my god, it definitely like that. Yeah, to be outnumbered that greatly.

SPEAKER_01: 9:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 9:52

Yeah. I really, my hat's off to parents of two or three. Yeah. My sister-in-law said it, you know, because like when Josh and I have said, like, what if we had only one kid or whatever? She's like, one kid is great because they really fit into your life. And she's like, With three, you're fitting into their life. You're going by their code. And I was like, that was so true when I took them one time, two times out of the house by myself.

SPEAKER_01: 10:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 10:19

It was like It's a production. A production. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 10:24

But just the amount of stuff.

SPEAKER_02: 10:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 10:27

And you know, I have found that no matter how much you prepare, there's always like the immediate, like you get to your destination, and then one of them is either I'm hungry or I have to go to the bathroom. Or it's like an immediate thing that they need, even though you haven't even gotten right. Like you're still you're parking the collar.

SPEAKER_02: 10:46

Stuffed animals dropped on the floor and they're strapped in, they can't get it.

SPEAKER_01: 10:49

Yeah, it's all it's all the way.

SPEAKER_02: 10:50

And I'm like, I didn't even think to like get all the stuffed animals like in the laps before we hit the road. You're not of course I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_01: 10:57

You didn't know it, and you're never gonna think of it all.

SPEAKER_02: 10:59

Yeah, and then it's like your ride is a blood-curdling scream.

SPEAKER_01: 11:03

But that's when you put on. Let me have you listen to a little podcast called The Wise Mind.

SPEAKER_02: 11:08

Yeah, get him to the card. Crank that. Yeah. And then I should have played them my podcast. I really should have.

SPEAKER_01: 11:14

I did I ever tell you that my coworker Erica, you know, Erica. Yeah, she uh sent me a picture of her son sleeping, and she was like, I it your podcast put him to sleep. And I thought that was the funniest thing. I was like, that's incredible. I was like, that's great. Listen, you don't need a white noise machine.

SPEAKER_02: 11:30

Yeah, I know. Honestly, I feel like her podcast really could be.

SPEAKER_01: 11:33

Just the blatherings of me and Kelly and Josh.

SPEAKER_02: 11:36

Rambling about anything. It's great. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 11:39

How wise is it?

SPEAKER_02: 11:40

How wise is it? Yeah. How wise is it to put this on as white noise.

SPEAKER_01: 11:44

Sleep.

SPEAKER_02: 11:45

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_01: 11:46

Well, now are you still like feeling it? Like you're still tired from the weekend?

SPEAKER_02: 11:50

So, I mean, today what's nice is like I I've made it so that I don't see clients before I mean I used to say 12. These days it's like before 11. I won't see clients on Monday. So I do usually like no matter how big a weekend I have, I do get that time to sleep in a little bit. So that can save me. It also can kind of fuck me if like I have to get up really early on Tuesday, then my sleep rhythm is off even further. But it's not too bad. At least I get sleep. So that was pretty good.

SPEAKER_04: 12:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 12:20

So yeah, I'm feeling pretty normal at this moment. I did on Saturday night because I had gotten up so early Saturday morning and woken up in the middle of the night with the little one. It would, you know, it was like 8 p.m. I was like, I I'll see you guys. Like, I'm gonna go to bed, which I like never do. But I just was like, I am exhausted. I know. I can't even think about it.

SPEAKER_01: 12:41

It's hard.

SPEAKER_02: 12:42

Yeah. And I did make a compromise. Like I said to my brother, I was like, Can you take if you take the monitor and get up with them in the middle of the night? I'll get up with them in the morning. And he was like, done. And I was like, okay. So because I had the monitor and got up with them the first night, and I was like, Do they all sleep in the same room? They do. The little one has her own room, but she likes to sleep with the other two. So her room just has like her clothes and stuffed animals and stuff.

SPEAKER_01: 13:06

Yeah. That's nice though, that they like to sleep together.

SPEAKER_02: 13:08

They love it. Yeah, it's so cute.

SPEAKER_01: 13:11

That's cool.

SPEAKER_02: 13:11

They really do. And they kind of like, you know, they like stick up for each other and like Fia needs to go to sleep. And they're like yelling that into the monitor. Or Fia needs to go potty. Like they're like yelling that into the monitor, you know, on behalf of each other, which is cute.

SPEAKER_01: 13:25

I shared, I shared a room with my brother until I was probably like in third or fourth grade.

SPEAKER_04: 13:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 13:32

So he must have been in like sixth, fifth or sixth. Wow, that's cute. And we had bunk beds, and I have a lot of memories. And I was on the bottom, and I just have a lot of memories of just who knows how long I was talking, thinking he was listening, and he was asleep on the top bunk. Because I couldn't see him. So we would like start like talking to one another, you know, and then it just ended up being me like talking at him.

SPEAKER_03: 13:56

Yeah, and suddenly.

SPEAKER_01: 13:57

And then suddenly I'm realizing, uh, Jake? Right. Well, and he and then I would like get out, look like peek over and get asleep.

SPEAKER_02: 14:07

Oh, was he like a faster to sleep than you? Uh probably.

SPEAKER_01: 14:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 14:15

Dreamless sleep of the eldest child.

SPEAKER_01: 14:17

I think I think it took me longer to wind down, probably, but also probably he was just like, I the best thing I can do right now is just fall asleep and get me out of this conversation. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 14:30

Um, just take me out.

SPEAKER_01: 14:32

But it which I feel like was the gentle way of doing it, as opposed to like telling me to like be quiet or anything like that. He's like, I'm just gonna fall asleep, check out of this, and yeah. Yeah, love it. I know. Shout out to Jake. Shout out to Jake. He did our design. So if you ever see our Wise Mind Happy Hour logo, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 14:48

I would love to have him on the pod if he's ever in town.

SPEAKER_01: 14:51

Oh, yeah, we'll get him on the pod. He's got a great, he he'll have a great podcast voice. He's got a very deep voice. Wow, really deep. I know.

SPEAKER_02: 14:59

Love it, love it.

SPEAKER_01: 15:00

Easy in book him.

SPEAKER_02: 15:02

So I have some um, well, some ideas of pop culture stuff that we can or cannot talk about.

SPEAKER_01: 15:09

You sound very lukewarm.

SPEAKER_02: 15:11

Well, I'm nervous to bring up the Taylor Swift album release because when okay, so I knew it came out, and before I even actually knew it came out, I had clients like telling me because you know, people are in real time or like getting it.

SPEAKER_01: 15:26

Yes.

SPEAKER_02: 15:26

So I was like, oh no, everyone's listening and I haven't heard yet, and I have like a full day of of work before I can even listen to a track of it.

SPEAKER_01: 15:34

And this is a full album.

SPEAKER_02: 15:36

This is not yeah, right?

SPEAKER_01: 15:38

Full album, full music album, yeah. All right, yeah, this is not like yeah, she dropped a couple songs or something.

SPEAKER_02: 15:43

Well, but what's interesting is with the Tortured Poet Society, it almost is twice the length altogether, right?

SPEAKER_00: 15:52

Are we talking the the extended release? But no one's listening to that. Okay. Well, I I wasn't listening to that. Yeah, I guess I really wasn't either. I listened to it once.

SPEAKER_02: 16:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 16:02

And every other time I just listened to the I think it was like an hour, the other one, which is reasonable.

SPEAKER_02: 16:08

Yeah. This one had to be less because I listened to the whole thing with time to spare in a 45-minute floyd.

SPEAKER_00: 16:14

I think it's like 40-something minutes.

SPEAKER_02: 16:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 16:16

And this is Tales of a Showgirl. What is it called?

SPEAKER_02: 16:19

The life of a showgirl. You know, honestly, like everyone mistakes the title. Like I called it the last showgirl. It's like, it's almost like emblematic of the issue, sort of. But so all these people are listening to it and kind of into it. And then Josh, I come out of one of my sessions, and Josh is like, I listened to the Taylor Swift album. He's like, I really didn't like it. Right.

SPEAKER_00: 16:44

Was that what I said verbatim?

SPEAKER_02: 16:46

Well, what do you remember saying? It was something like that.

SPEAKER_00: 16:48

I think I said, I don't know, no, I'm not that into it.

SPEAKER_02: 16:51

Yeah, right. Okay. I'm not that into it. And I was like, okay, I have to listen for myself because then I then you really start to panic. You're like, am I gonna be able to know what I think of it independently? You know, like all these people telling me here and there.

SPEAKER_01: 17:04

So you felt like you were already being influenced to lean in one direction.

SPEAKER_02: 17:09

Yeah, I feel like her albums, it's like that because they're so she's so massively popular. There's like 10 think pieces on the album, like the minute it drops that are telling you what to think about it. And there's TikToks like breaking down the think pieces, and like it's crazy. And I'm like, I kind of just want to know what I think about it. So it actually ended up working out that I went to spend the time with three little girls under five and my brother, who knows nothing about her albums, because I was like kind of insulated from it. And then on the plane ride back, just spent the whole plane ride listening. And I was kind of like bopping away. Like I thought it was kind of fun. Like, I definitely did think the lyrics were cringy. And I know I think it was like a New York Times piece that said, like, she has reached the ultimate level of cringe in these lyrics. So I and I had read even some of them before I listened, and I was like, yeah, I mean, these are pretty cringy.

SPEAKER_01: 18:08

Is this like a concept album? Like, is she gonna go on tour and like have a persona of a showgirl? And like, it is this like a is this gonna be like an embodiment type of thing, or is it just like that's what she titled the album? She took a sort of thing.

SPEAKER_02: 18:26

In in the lyrics, not like a showgirl like stripper.

SPEAKER_01: 18:29

No, no, no. I don't know. Yeah, right. Like she's a showgirl, but uh just in the lyrics, or like she's gonna try to embody this and like really like take on like this persona, and like that's the concept.

SPEAKER_02: 18:41

No, the album, there's only one song, okay, and it's called The Life of a Showgirl, okay, that is that vibe. Like the rest is like I guess conceptually it's it's kind of all over the place, slash it's a lot about her finally meeting her guy. Yeah, yeah. Travis Kelsey. Travis Kelsey, and there's a lot of references to him that are pretty rough.

SPEAKER_01: 19:08

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_02: 19:08

Yeah. I mean, there's a song called 87. Well, like I mean, does she say his number? She says his podcast.

SPEAKER_01: 19:16

Oh, does she? I don't know.

SPEAKER_02: 19:17

I don't know anything about her.

SPEAKER_01: 19:18

I just when you say cringy, I was like, what like go cheese?

SPEAKER_02: 19:21

Well, no, it's like a lot of internet speak.

SPEAKER_01: 19:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 19:24

You know, she's using I like that wood song. Every single line's a double entendre.

SPEAKER_02: 19:30

Every line is a double entendre. It's yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 19:34

Very racy. Right. Yeah. I was like, I'm gonna take my clothes off.

SPEAKER_03: 19:39

Did you do you did you really feel that?

SPEAKER_00: 19:41

Uh no. I like Taylor Swift. I I was disappointed by the album lyrically and musically. I was like, I feel like it's not making me feel super emotional. It's not like kind of like super like it's not like super campy fun. It's kind of like in the middle, and she just seems pretty like happy. Yeah, and I don't want her to be happy. Well, it doesn't always make for an interesting album.

SPEAKER_01: 20:08

It doesn't always work for the creative process, maybe.

SPEAKER_02: 20:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 20:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 20:12

Well, the other thing is she didn't work Jack Antonov this album, which her last two or three she did. Lover four, maybe.

SPEAKER_00: 20:21

He did Lover.

SPEAKER_02: 20:22

He did he do love?

SPEAKER_00: 20:24

I don't know. I came on board folklore. Did he do that? Did he do any of the albums? My phone's here, and I can look at it.

SPEAKER_01: 20:34

I mean, I think listen, some artists that you just really like, right? You're gonna go to bat no matter what, and you're always gonna buy their albums. And the more you listen to it, the more you might like them or they grow. I mean, there are certain albums that, yeah, you just need to listen to them a few times and then right.

SPEAKER_02: 20:51

Well, that's my curiosity. Like, once all this dies down, are people gonna like it? Because Tortured Poet Society people were like obsessed with Minute One and never stopped. And I actually really liked the one before that, too.

SPEAKER_01: 21:04

The one with Midnight's Midnight. I'm just curious about all the references to Travis Kelsey. That's kind of funny.

SPEAKER_02: 21:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 21:12

Yeah. Jack Antinoff did 1989. Did he? Jack Antinoff from 1989 onwards. But that's confusing.

SPEAKER_02: 21:21

No, because Reputation was the guy who did this one.

SPEAKER_00: 21:24

I'm reading the AI overview, which is very poorly written.

SPEAKER_02: 21:28

The AI overviews? They were saying this on Doughboys that like don't read the Google AI. It's often wrong. God crazy.

SPEAKER_00: 21:36

Watch out. They're often right.

SPEAKER_02: 21:40

Sometimes right.

SPEAKER_00: 21:42

Well, sometimes the national guy, Aaron Desner from the National, did folklore evermore and midnights. Yeah. He did Midnight.

SPEAKER_02: 21:50

I didn't know he did Midnight.

SPEAKER_00: 21:51

Well, this is the AI overview.

SPEAKER_02: 21:53

Well, we can't trust it.

SPEAKER_00: 21:54

Listen, audience, I'm reading the AI overview.

SPEAKER_02: 21:56

We almost need to go to Wikipedia.

SPEAKER_01: 21:58

She had that, yeah. I mean, and she had that collaboration with the lead singer from the National. Yes.

SPEAKER_02: 22:03

She did a song with him. Yeah. Yeah. I think I remember that piece. Yeah. She really has a lot of good albums.

SPEAKER_01: 22:10

Yeah, for sure. I mean, that's the other thing, too, is there's something to be said about somebody who sets the bar so high that it's they kind of have a dud. It's one hard to maintain it.

SPEAKER_02: 22:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 22:21

And anything below whatever spectacular is going to be viewed as like, oh man, that's such a sharp. Like if you have constantly have tens, a seven's going to be like death. Pretty bad.

SPEAKER_02: 22:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 22:33

Or people are going to think it's pretty bad. But it's still like a I don't know. I'm just throwing numbers over here. No, I think you're right. But it's like a seven is a solid thing that most people never attain as an album.

SPEAKER_02: 22:42

So it's kind of like it's also there's almost like an interesting meta-narrative of like she had all these like failed relationships and felt so like tortured in them and made this like I think pretty incredible art. Like, say what you want, like it resonates with so many people. That's like interesting in itself. Then she kind of finds this guy and like with that album, it's not as like creatively expressive. It's like it's almost saying something interesting about the human experience. That like not even that, like, oh, she shouldn't have found this guy, almost like the opposite that like maybe artistic output is like less important than just like being loved by someone who's like trustworthy and loving. I mean, Jish said it.

SPEAKER_01: 23:29

He said, I want her to be sad. Yeah, right. That's probably what the public wants.

SPEAKER_02: 23:34

Right. Well, we want it because that's the only part we get to participate in. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01: 23:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 23:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 23:40

So I hear that, what you're saying. I mean, yeah.

unknown: 23:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 23:43

There's something maybe more a bad album and a good relationship. Provocative and more like taps into different, like raw emotions more. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02: 23:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 23:53

I don't listen to music at all. So I don't really know what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_02: 23:56

But then it makes me think too. It takes like an extraordinary artist, I think, of any kind, like a visual artist, a musician, like a director, an actor, whatever, to both like in moments of like torture and pain and moments of bliss, like creatively express in an interesting way. Like it makes me think about Phoebe Waller Bridge and Fleabag, how season one, the character was like so tortured. In season two, there really is this arc where she's like finding herself, and there's a totally new, just as compelling narrative there. I was always so impressed with that show for that reason. Like to really make it compelling in a completely different way than the first time it worked, right? To abandon something that worked to find something else that's like equally interesting or more interesting, it's so great.

SPEAKER_01: 24:50

Yeah. And I I, as you're saying that, I'm sure there are countless examples of artists who like they found what worked. Yeah. And then once people got used to that, they expected it. And then once they stepped outside of it to try to evolve, there's a lot of times like pushback on it. Because it's like, well, that's not what we were used to.

SPEAKER_02: 25:11

Like Dylan went electric, or just anything.

SPEAKER_01: 25:14

Like, you know, like I'm sure there's so many examples of like, well, we're gonna evolve into trying this, and then people are like, what is this? Like, why are they doing that? We want the yeah. I see I straight down Main Street breakup songs, and that's what we want. Like, why what are you doing? You're evolving, you're getting happy, you're getting married.

SPEAKER_02: 25:33

Oh my god, I did this today with Allison Roman. I literally watched the chef on YouTube, and she married a guy who's a filmmaker. Oh my god, like she married a guy who's a filmmaker. And she um he started filming her videos, and they're way different, and I don't like them. But you know, that makes me think I need to be more open-minded about it because clearly she's very happy. Like, she's found this amazing guy, and she had a baby, and like she's living her best life. And I'm not saying I don't like her artistic output. Well, I guess I am saying that, but it's like to me, I'm like, I love the recipes, I love you. Just like get this dumb background music out of here. I said to Joshua, it's like it's like the music at one of those like Buka de Beppo type of you know, like Italian restaurants where you're like, This is so annoying, this music. But you know, I'm not letting her evolve. Like, maybe it's better that she has these like shitty videos and a happy life.

SPEAKER_01: 26:30

For some reason, when I was uh driving over here, my maybe this is what is it, serendipitous, but um a song that came up randomly was a uh a Band of Horses song. Oh yeah, and Band of Horses had like two what I thought were really good like rock albums, and then they went country, and I was like, what is this? Oh, they did like why are they doing this? Or like I don't know country rock type stuff, and I was like, I'm not listening to these guys anymore. Yeah, totally wasn't open to it, and then their last album, they kind of and even the reviews were like, Well, they got back to form, they got back to you know, and it's kind of like this that same thing where it's like, well, maybe they were maybe I should have given those albums more of a listen, right?

SPEAKER_02: 27:15

Even though I'm not, you know, or it's like we gotta let people try some trying to try something fail or succeed.

SPEAKER_01: 27:20

Like there's gotta be but I fell right in line with that. Oh, they totally got back to form. They stopped the country and they're back on rock. Yeah, love this album.

SPEAKER_02: 27:29

But it's funny, like, don't you think country it has so many like like political implications that make it really hard to enjoy?

SPEAKER_01: 27:35

Oh, I hate country music.

SPEAKER_02: 27:37

It's it's tough, like it's not like you can really just enjoy it.

SPEAKER_01: 27:42

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 27:42

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01: 27:43

Well, we'll have to see as the reviews continue to come out. Yeah, what did Pitchfork give it, Josh?

SPEAKER_00: 27:48

Oh, the Taylor Swift?

SPEAKER_01: 27:50

Oh, I thought you would just know that because I the band of horses.

SPEAKER_00: 27:52

No, no, no, no. I I Sorry, not the worst. I do know. I'll look it up, but I think it got a 5.9. Really? Double check. Not the worst, not the worst review they've ever given. That's low. That's low.

SPEAKER_02: 28:06

Below St. Vincent.

SPEAKER_00: 28:07

I feel like for her. Below St. Vincent. Is that her lowest album, do you think? Uh she's had a lot of albums. I think I don't know if Pitchfork is generally like the biggest tailor. Like, I remember they gave fork for forklore. That's awesome. I wasn't even trying. I remember they gave folklore an eight out of ten, which is a good score. Like, it's uh one of their higher scores of the year that they gave. And it ended up on the year-end list, like top 10, I think. But people were like, an eight out of ten, they were like flipping out their fans. Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, I feel like I saw that and I was like, oh, I gotta listen to this. Like, wow. Yeah. Yeah. So it's interesting.

SPEAKER_01: 28:49

Well, I just figured it kind of like, you know, when they say like you get a certain number of points for just writing your name on the SAT or whatever. Like, I just feel like because their name's attached to it, like, they're giving her a seven.

SPEAKER_00: 28:59

Like, oh no, they don't, they don't do that. If anything, they do the opposite. They do the opposite. It's like someone, it's like I feel like they love to like make a band and then like shit on them. Once they've given them like that. Once they've like it's like once you've headlined pitchfork, you'll never get a good score again. Oh. Yeah. But we'll ask you back, and you can say on stage, uh Really? Thanks for letting me headline. You gave me a 6.9 on my last album.

SPEAKER_01: 29:24

I wonder what Kendrick Lamar's albums have been. I bet they gave his last album like a 6.8. Really? I would just say I bet all of his are over 7.5.

SPEAKER_00: 29:33

I think all of his are like over nine, except well, actually, Mr. Morale was like a 7.7. I shouldn't know all this. Um that's why I'm asking you. I know you know all this. And then the GNX, which I thought is great and like maybe is his worst album since Good Kid Mad City. Um, I think they gave like a 6.7, but okay. I still think it's that's a great take, though.

SPEAKER_01: 29:57

They love to build you up and then they break you down.

SPEAKER_02: 30:00

They don't want it to get too popular.

SPEAKER_01: 30:02

What did you say? A hipster's paradise?

SPEAKER_02: 30:03

I said the hipster special.

SPEAKER_01: 30:05

Oh, the hipster's uh uh gangster's paradise.

SPEAKER_02: 30:07

It's like they you cannot like things that are popular, mainstream popular, you know. It's like you just can't. I say that as like a person who often falls into that, where it's something gets too popular, I'm like, fuck this. Like whether it's I mean, anything.

SPEAKER_00: 30:20

It's almost the popular like indie stuff though that they're the hardest on.

SPEAKER_02: 30:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 30:24

Like the new gaga album they gave an eight out of ten.

SPEAKER_02: 30:26

It's probably gonna be on their well, because then that's cool to be like this super because she's but now she's like classic rock. You know, it's like that makes us weird in a different way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 30:39

Do we know when they're getting married? Bringing more pop culture. We still don't have a date on that.

SPEAKER_02: 30:44

I don't think they're keeping it low-key.

SPEAKER_01: 30:46

Is that what you said? That's what they said. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02: 30:49

Who the hell knows? What's yeah, it is a bummer that the album is like all about him and she's so happy and engaged, and then like people are like shiving on it so much. I could imagine she's probably feeling pretty bad.

SPEAKER_01: 31:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 31:03

Or well, yeah, she probably got trillions of dollars to cushion the blow. But yeah, yeah. I think she cares.

SPEAKER_01: 31:10

I mean all the songs if you're putting effort into anything creative. Yeah, it's gotta be.

SPEAKER_02: 31:17

Oh, I think she cares like big time. Yeah, she had the song about Charlie XX is about like her like talking shit about her once and not even saying something that bad. And she made this whole like kind of like cutting song about it, and it's a little like I don't know. Weird.

SPEAKER_01: 31:34

How old is Taylor Swift?

SPEAKER_02: 31:36

She is like almost exactly my age, because I was born in 1989, so she's 35. I think maybe she just turned 36. Oh, okay. Maybe got it. Yeah, I heard someone say like 40-year-old Taylor Swift still singing like petty pop songs. I was like, that is funny. Like, she definitely isn't 25 anymore, which like that makes more sense.

SPEAKER_01: 31:56

But yeah, it'll be interesting to continue to see how she evolves.

SPEAKER_02: 32:01

Yeah, yeah, it will be. If she'll ever like step back, I can't even picture it, but maybe. Well, maybe this our topic could apply to this, even our topic today is using humor to cope. So we could think about using humor to cope with the Taylor Switch.

SPEAKER_01: 32:17

With a bad Taylor Switch album.

SPEAKER_02: 32:19

Yeah. So basically we're looking at like the pros and cons of using humor to cope. So maybe we should almost like define like what that is. What would you tell someone like using humor to cope looks like or is?

SPEAKER_01: 32:31

Well, probably making light of something that is serious or you know, could be taken seriously, and it's it's a way for us to maybe sit or not sit, but kind of like avoid discomfort or you know, something that's uncomfortable for us.

SPEAKER_04: 32:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 32:47

A lot of people will use it, myself included. Um I think to diffuse situations, to diffuse just from our own emotional experience. People will use it when they're anxious a lot. Yeah. I think it's interesting people will use like self-deprecating humor a lot too as a defense. Yeah. Um, with distress around like getting compliments or being being seen or you know, all of those types of things, like going to a complete like self-deprecating place. Yeah. Um so we have some sort of discomfort we don't want to sit with. And so, how do we either control it or think we're gonna control it or escape it is through humor. It's a it's a defense, right? It's protective.

SPEAKER_02: 33:27

Yeah, what they say that too. It's like escape it or like an act, don't they sometimes say it's like you like launder the experience like through humor?

SPEAKER_01: 33:36

Yeah, you try to make it cleaner, and yeah, making light of something is a way for you to not have to actually sit in that like quote unquote like dirty discomfort. Right, you know, it's like a mess. Yeah, it's uncomfortable, whatever we would be talking about, anxiety, like I'm anxious, and so using humor kind of makes it cleaner because okay, well, we're both laughing about this, you know, isn't it kind of funny? Right. As opposed to really sitting in it in that like messiness and really taking like on how serious it is. So yeah, I don't know, how would you describe no?

SPEAKER_02: 34:12

I think that's right on. It's funny as I was thinking about this, I wasn't even like you brought up so many like other elements of it that are important to think about, like even the desire to try to cope, using humor with like a quote unquote positive experience, like a compliment.

SPEAKER_04: 34:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 34:28

You know, which can actually be incredibly it's almost like it helps you cope with just any kind of vulnerable experience, even if it's a good one or a bad one, you know, quote unquote. But it's so interesting. It's like using humor to diffuse the feelings of an experience. Sometimes they are good feelings, sometimes they are bad feelings, to use judgment words. But I think about this with like a breakup or a failure of some kind, a loss of some kind. You know, there's like plenty of times where it's helpful or even kind of like harmless almost, like to use humor. You know, or like even like I think of like there's settings where you're not gonna like go so deep with certain 100%. Yeah. Yeah. Like like situations where they're not super like safe or familiar, you don't have like supports around you. Definitely.

SPEAKER_01: 35:28

And I hope that context is taken into this, right? This discussion, because I think hopefully anybody who's listened to this podcast knows that the three of us really like to laugh and we really appreciate humor and things that are funny, and we can see the humor in things. And I think we know in conversations when to hopefully let that go. It's not perfect, but let that go a little bit. And it's like, oh, okay, like we're we're really in zone here and and this is serious, right? And I and it's again, that's not perfect, it's hard to do. And I think there are certain situations that I could probably tone down the humor a little bit and and listen more. Totally, you know. But I think humor's a very effective thing, and sometimes diffusing things with humor is a super effective thing to do.

SPEAKER_02: 36:16

Yeah, it's like it can ease a social situation in a non-toxic way, you know, with new people, right, with people who have limited like capacity to support you.

SPEAKER_01: 36:29

Right. I think it's for me, it's working with clients, the frequency with which it is used, or also noticing what things are prompting the humor. So are there certain topics that are prompting the humor?

SPEAKER_03: 36:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 36:45

Are there certain emotions that are prompting the injection of humor?

SPEAKER_04: 36:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 36:49

Those are all like red flags for me of like, okay, and then trying to point that out gently and saying, you know, I notice when we start talking about your family, you're making jokes about this, or when we are start talking about your, I don't know, professional life, you are very self-effacing or you know, self-deprecating. Like you can't take a compliment, you know.

SPEAKER_04: 37:09

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 37:10

So I think it's noticing the frequency and also if there's a theme to when the humor's being injected.

SPEAKER_02: 37:17

And you know, I feel like you and I have both had the experiences of making me think of like, you know, it's like as a therapist, or even as like a friend or a partner or whatever, it could be tricky to navigate defensive humor when the person's really funny, you know? Oh, yeah. Because like you're so you so just laugh. And like, I mean, there are people that are artists at this. I mean, Josh, you're like this, like you're incredibly funny naturally.

SPEAKER_00: 37:45

Thanks. Uh it's funny because I'm sitting here listening and I figured I would talk eventually at some point, but I I feel like I not that it's a crime, am very guilty of using humor. I don't know that it's always a negative. No. And maybe it's a negative more than I realize. Like, I guess I've like always thought of it as a really positive trait of mine. And maybe there's times that it can be more negative. Because I have this memory. I don't think I've ever told you this, Kelly. It's from fourth or fifth grade. I was over my friend Lauren Wolfe's house. Um, and my mom was picking me up. And I remember we were like all talking in the foyer, like me and my mom and Lauren and her mom. And I remembered like thinking I was like on a roll, like I was being like super funny, and I was like, I almost feel like an adult. And then I remember my mom taking like all the wind out of my sails, and she was like, Josh, it's kind of like hard to have a conversation when you're like this. And I thought it. Yeah, and it's funny because I feel like to this day I'm like, again, not to use the word crime, but it's like I'm guilty of the same crime. Where it's like, I feel like I'm like diffusing a situation, but either I am like taking up too much space, or maybe like not allowing like important things to be said. Sure. Or like almost like calling attention to things in a way that's comfortable for me, but makes everyone else feel uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_02: 39:12

Oh, interesting. So you feel now like there was a kernel of truth in what your mom is was saying that it was like Oh yeah. Okay, totally. Wow, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 39:22

But I guess part of what was going through my head as you were talking, um, I think I've really viewed this as like a hundred percent a positive trait for a long time. And I I guess I'm seeing the other side of it. But do you ever feel like using humor can be a way of like owning something, or is it always kind of diffusing?

SPEAKER_02: 39:43

It's a good question. It's hard to say definitively.

SPEAKER_04: 39:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 39:48

Because to your point, it's like so much context, like around the very moment and like the history of the person is important there, right?

SPEAKER_01: 39:59

Like, I'm trying to think, even for myself, like I'm think-I'm just thinking of I wonder if there's a version of that literally through stand-up comedy where comedians will take their own when they're when they're owning their own stuff on stage in a way that's still authentic and using the humor to do that. And I think that that's a very tough thing to do where it's not self-deprecating and it's also owning it. And I don't know for some reason I'm thinking of maybe like a John Mullaney owning his addiction issues on stage where I've seen clips, I haven't seen full but it felt though like he it was coming from an authentic place, yet still somehow, and this is probably why he's so amazing at it, still funny, but still touching and you know. So I to your point, I think there are ways of doing that. I think it must I don't know. That's the first thing that came to mind.

SPEAKER_02: 40:57

But no, I think you're right.

SPEAKER_01: 40:58

But it's so reinfaking somebody laugh is such a reinforcing thing for me. Yeah, so I I'm on board, I'm on board with you where it's like it's hard to view it as anything other than a great thing. Because to make somebody laugh and ask any comedian, it's fun, it's like the most, yeah, it can be the most intoxicating thing where you're just like, oh my god, like people are laughing at me.

SPEAKER_02: 41:21

Right. And like connects. Yeah, absolutely. That's the tough thing. It really does connect you in many cases to other people. Well, I even think about like Chris Farley, like all the like background stuff I've read and like heard about him is like this was kind of his struggle, is he's so incredibly natural. He was so incredibly naturally funny. But also like had some pretty real insecurities, obviously. And just leaning on the humor to like connect and live and find vitality through, like clearly was not the answer.

SPEAKER_01: 42:00

Yeah. And that was the only he probably from the things I've seen felt like he had to keep that up.

SPEAKER_02: 42:06

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 42:06

Like there's such immense pressure, probably for someone like that to just keep it up. Totally. Because then you know, you get in your own head of like this is what people expect of me.

SPEAKER_02: 42:16

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 42:17

I I'm the funny one, or I'm able to make people laugh. I gotta keep them laughing, or that idea. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 42:23

Yeah, it's like he probably needed someone to say, like, you're so funny, but like just know you don't have to be to be this. Like, and I I don't mean like a friend, I mean probably like a deeply trusted, like parent type figure.

SPEAKER_01: 42:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 42:38

To kind of give him that permission to like not be funny to. I mean, I'm like speculating, I know he's not my client or anything, but it's considered like when you think of like Freudian defenses, psychodynamic defenses, it's considered like among the few like healthy defenses. Humor is one, um, and like irreverence and um sublimation is one, right? Like if you tend to be kind of an aggressive person if you like take up boxing or whatever. Make music, make music, make heavy metal music or something. Yeah. It's a healthy defense, but it's still a defense when your real goal is connecting to your self-worth. The wise mind, while like warm and open and probably easy to laugh, it doesn't have to be making the room pleased and entertained, and yeah, or even you comfortable, pleased, entertained. You know, it has space for real experience and and needs it, you know, like there is a point to us like feeling our feelings fully, knowing the self through those challenges and like fortifying the self, you know, like going through a breakup and not just making jokes about your ex or yourself, but feeling the pain of the loss, yeah, and really confronting like what are maybe the negative beliefs about myself coming up here, the fears, you know, and really digesting that. And humor can interrupt that. Humor might have a role at times, but yeah, sometimes if you want the richest version of the experience, like setting that down and being a little more uncomfortable is helpful.

SPEAKER_01: 44:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 44:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 44:30

I almost think sometimes humor can be the opening into sharing. Yes. And it and the person sometimes is able to really then follow that humor up with something vulnerable. Yeah. Totally. It's almost like that first. I'm putting this out there because I want to say something.

SPEAKER_04: 44:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 44:51

It's too heightened to say anything serious right now. So I'm gonna say the funny thing first.

SPEAKER_04: 44:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 44:56

I've had people in group make a very like well-timed kind of joke, right? Or not joke, but just something, and it's funny, and people have followed that up with and or it's some sort of like version of, and I know that this is something I'm struggling with.

SPEAKER_04: 45:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 45:13

And then they kind of share a little bit, and that is very powerful. I think that is an authentic way of like also maybe trying to attune to the room a little bit and and put people a little bit at ease, it feels a little heightened, and I'm not making fun of this, and then there's like a share.

SPEAKER_02: 45:28

Yeah, you know, it's like the best version of small talk, almost like that attunes you to the other people. I even think about that with like, let's say you like meet a new friend, and like at the beginning, they make some like funny joke.

SPEAKER_04: 45:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 45:44

I feel like it's so like, oh, my person, like it can feel so connecting and like, I don't know, like resonant. But then it's like deeper into the friendship, and you're like wanting to like know about their life or something that happened and they're only joking about it. Right. It can feel like a barrier, you know, like oh I sense you don't really want me to see this part of you. Maybe not because there's anything wrong with me, but it's like there's a struggle to tolerate like me really seeing you for some reason. And you know, that happens, but it's not always the most effective.

SPEAKER_01: 46:20

You know what's the really interesting scenario? What? When somebody's using a lot of humor as a way to protect or defend, yeah, and their humor isn't funny.

SPEAKER_02: 46:29

Oh, then it's so that's tough.

SPEAKER_01: 46:31

It's so obvious.

SPEAKER_02: 46:33

Yes, I know you gotta be funny. If you're funny, you can get away with everything. You can get away with anything, make a career out of it, make millions.

SPEAKER_01: 46:38

If you're I remember one time in a group I said, okay, no more jokes unless they're funny. Because people, it was getting a little out of hand, and people laughed at that and got because I didn't want to come too firm down on people because I was like, okay, I get it. Like we're all, you know, and I feel like I kind of have a high tolerance for that. But then it finally was just like, this is out of hand, and I was like, no more, unless it's actually a really funny.

SPEAKER_02: 46:58

But that like diffuses it and also probably makes people like hesitant.

SPEAKER_01: 47:01

It's kind of yeah, puts them on notice where it's like, okay, like you know, well placed. But sometimes when humor is used a lot and it's not funny, ooh, that's uncomfortable. Yeah. Yikes. I think self-deprecation, though, is something I really try to look out for. Right. And you were bringing up self-worth. We talk about that a lot on this podcast, rightfully so. I feel like that's when people are really like not wanting to like own some of their stuff. They feel like they have to be the butt of the joke. They they have they're not really in contact with why they're worthy, maybe outside of that kind of like clowning around. Right. I'm such an idiot, or I'm that stupid me, or even as mental health practitioners, I that's because I'm crazy and I'm just like crazy, you know, that type of thing. It's that can be really hard to have people kind of get away from that.

SPEAKER_00: 47:54

Yeah. What about if you're like gaining a bunch of weight and you like make a joke to your friends about it?

SPEAKER_01: 48:01

Is it a funny joke? No.

SPEAKER_02: 48:04

Funny. No, I I think the same applies to that. Do you have an example in mind?

SPEAKER_00: 48:12

Yeah, me. Okay. I just gained like 15 pounds. And I feel like for me, it feels good to kind of talk lightly about it.

SPEAKER_02: 48:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 48:20

But maybe that's not so healthy.

SPEAKER_02: 48:22

Well, I mean, I think this is a great question because this brings us a little bit into like for a listener, like, if you're noticing, like, oh wow, like I use humor a ton to cope. Like, are there places where I could think about shifting this? I think noticing, like you just did, where you use it. And even being more like curious, you know, like what might I be avoiding feeling by making this humorous? Making a joke about it. Or even like, am I avoiding altogether this feeling? Or in some circles, do I make a joke about it? And in other places, I fully process any pain around it.

SPEAKER_00: 49:05

Maybe I'm just always running from the pain.

SPEAKER_01: 49:09

Well, I think some people will use it to own something first before they get questioned about it. So that could be the avoidance too, where it's like, I'm gonna make a joke about my appearance or something because I'm worried, I don't know, people might notice or they might address this thing about me if we're talking about image. And so I'm just gonna make a joke about it, make light of it to kind of like call people into it.

SPEAKER_04: 49:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 49:34

That would be maybe more of like put avoiding the idea of like an uncomfortable conversation or somebody maybe ask me about it, or you know, in this case, like if my body looks different, right? I I really don't want people to say anything or to be talking behind my back when I'm not there. So maybe I'll just make light of it as a way to kind of like just put it out there. I mean, that could be something to explore.

SPEAKER_02: 49:56

Yeah, like am I avoiding having other people notice something and have their own thoughts about it? Like the vulnerability of that. It's incredibly vulnerable. You know, like taking over the subject and and telling them before there's even time for that sometimes can make someone feel comfortable or safe. Do you what do you think? Do you think it would be helpful to do it less or not do it? Use humor with this subject specifically.

SPEAKER_00: 50:26

Well, I use it with like everything. Yeah. And I'm suddenly feeling it's like it's like a toxic behavior of mine.

SPEAKER_02: 50:32

No. Well, no, that's not at all what we're saying.

SPEAKER_00: 50:36

Like I used it so much to deal with my parents' divorce and like kind of told stories in this like funny way that would make my friends laugh. And it felt like me like reclaiming something that was like dark and finding the humor in it. But maybe that wasn't so good. No, I think it helped me through it, but like maybe it's like built up all these like calluses of me like never really dealing with pain.

SPEAKER_01: 51:01

No, and I think that that's where it's like the curiosity comes in. It's like because maybe you have had moments of using the humor. All of us, we use the humor, and at the same time we still explore in a more or I guess in a less humorous way, right? And if you're doing that just internally or with a therapist, I feel like that's that can be useful. Yeah. You know, I think both. It's like both and right, holding a dialectic where it's like, yeah, I used humor, it got me through a lot. And it was there stuff that I haven't looked at in a lens that's maybe if I just bring the humor down a little bit, like, is there some stuff there that I could look at? You know? Yeah. I think humor gets us through so much.

SPEAKER_02: 51:42

Totally.

SPEAKER_01: 51:43

It's gotten me through so much in my life. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02: 51:46

And I think I'll say this like, I think there's much more honesty in what you're doing there than what my I mean, my parents are divorced. And I think at the time I didn't talk with anyone about it at all. I was just ashamed and like totally bottled it up and felt so much pain and didn't want anyone to know. And I think, yeah, we were young, you were even younger than me. Yeah. You know, you perfectly knowing it's not even like developmentally appropriate for you on your own to know it could be more useful for me to notice the humor like with a therapist or with someone and go a little deeper. You know, like a kid finding humor to survive a tough moment is incredibly resourceful. Especially if you're naturally funny like you are.

SPEAKER_00: 52:37

But have I evolved since then?

SPEAKER_02: 52:40

I mean, I'm your spouse. I would say yes. You know, we have so many conversations that are deep, vulnerable, honest, and not even close to humor.

SPEAKER_00: 52:53

So you think the issue is if like you can't turn it off?

SPEAKER_02: 52:58

Well, it can be an issue. And I think it's an issue. I would say this, and this is kind of true across the board, it's an issue if it's an issue.

SPEAKER_00: 53:05

Right. Because I get and like all I have is my own subjective experience. But I feel like I associate me kind of like being funny and feeling like my humor switches turned on with me feeling like I'm in flow and like I'm like kind of in my body, and like I have myself worth, and I'm like myself. And I think sometimes when I feel like I lose my sense of humor, it's times when I'm like in my head.

SPEAKER_02: 53:32

But I'm gonna say this a sense of humor is very different than using humor to cope. A sense of humor is that like that openness to laugh. Like a playfulness, a play that's a beautiful word for it. A playfulness, like that is like the nature of the wise mind.

SPEAKER_00: 53:51

The side I I feel that most of the time, and when I don't feel it, I'm concerned, and everyone around me is concerned.

SPEAKER_02: 53:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 53:56

Because I'm like that.

SPEAKER_02: 53:58

It's more defensive and emotion-minded and egoic when it's this compulsive need to kind of please and perform through humor, whether it's you or others or a combo.

SPEAKER_00: 54:12

I don't think I feel that so much.

SPEAKER_02: 54:14

Yeah. So, you know, I think that's a huge difference.

SPEAKER_00: 54:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 54:20

You know, there are like funny people that you know are funny and they're not like making a thousand jokes a minute. They just like kind of can see the humor in something and can open to it, but don't have to.

SPEAKER_04: 54:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 54:31

They can move in and out of it with like a sense of like ease and like meaning in both. For me, that's like a goal. I mean, that's like being self-possessed, being wise-minded, which I think I see you do a lot. Like you can ask a friend about what they're going through and not make a hundred jokes about it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 54:49

And I remember one time you called me Ernest and I got upset because I like to think of myself as like playful.

SPEAKER_02: 54:54

Did I when did I call you Ernest?

SPEAKER_00: 54:56

I don't know. I I but honestly, now and this is like reading me to filth.

SPEAKER_02: 55:01

Now what?

SPEAKER_00: 55:02

Reading you to filth?

SPEAKER_02: 55:04

No, it's just funny. You're like, you called me.

SPEAKER_00: 55:07

Well, no, it's funny because in this context, I'm like, oh, Kelly called me Ernest. I'm not only just a jokester. I can be like vulnerable to- Yeah, totally. And I know that. But yeah, it's it's interesting. And maybe uh maybe it was like the defensiveness in me coming up because I think humor's really important to like my heart and my soul. Like I'd say like music and humor, like top two. And when I think of what I have in common with all my friends, I'd say it's like basically the only thing we all have in common is like humor. Yeah. Similar sense of humor is like the one uniting thing among all my friends. And like I don't think it's a shallow connection necessarily. No. Sometimes I feel like it's deeper than like being like, oh, we're all into sports, or like we're all into some other thing.

SPEAKER_01: 55:52

But no, and this conversation is not an indictment on humor, no, or jokes, or funny things, or you know, I think it's how we are using it. Yeah. Right? It's not anything more than how are we relating to the humor. And I think just a a lot of times humor is very, like you said, resilient. It gets us through a lot. A very well-timed joke can even really like put people at ease in a very, very difficult situation. And and that doesn't mean we're making fun. I think making fun or making light of something is very different than using a sense of humor to kind of navigate a situation, which that's intuitive, and people don't always know how to do that. I feel like that is a very sophisticated way of using humor. Yeah. Whereas some people gravitate towards either just making fun of things or making light of things and minimizing things versus like we can see the humor in this and or the you know, embodiment of something funny here, a little nugget, and we're not losing sight of like the bigger picture.

SPEAKER_02: 56:56

So yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 56:57

I'm a number one humor fan.

SPEAKER_00: 56:59

Well, you're very funny, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 57:01

Naturally, well, thank you.

SPEAKER_01: 57:03

I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_02: 57:04

Yeah. No, I I I feel that way too, and I hope you feel better hearing us say this.

SPEAKER_00: 57:11

Feel better?

SPEAKER_02: 57:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 57:13

What, like not funny?

SPEAKER_01: 57:15

No, no, never not funny.

SPEAKER_00: 57:19

You think I'm funny or something? Like a client.

SPEAKER_02: 57:22

Well, you know, um, something you said.

SPEAKER_00: 57:24

Do I amuse you?

SPEAKER_02: 57:26

Something you said, um, oh, you know, I'm I'm almost thinking like, and this is a great practice for me to do, because I do make a lot of jokes as well in different moments. But asking myself, like, if I'm wondering, like, am I at a moment in life where I'm doing this a lot or whatever? Kind of like when you go to humor, kind of asking yourself, like, if I didn't make a joke here, what would I have to feel that I maybe don't want to feel? Yeah. If there's anything, you know, and being genuinely curious, because you might be like, I don't know. I think I just thought that was funny and I wanted to comment on it. Totally cool, you know. But it's like more like check in with yourself. Like, could there be something here I'm avoiding feeling that might be like honest and worthwhile, even if it's not like fun to go through that. And being humorous is like way more fun. But I think it can be a good question to ask and just see what your willingness is to like try going the other way. I actually think sometimes you do this, like might even make you funnier. Like, you know, like yeah. I don't know. It's like editing, you know, like what you try less hard? Yeah. Like surprise people in the other direction. And then maybe sometimes like when you do joke, it's less defensive, it's more sincere, less funnier.

SPEAKER_00: 58:47

I think with art and humor, it's like try less hard and not like do less. Well, humor, especially. With art, sometimes it doesn't mean like don't work really hard at it, but it's like and maybe it's similar with humor. It's like don't you don't don't like try to be a genius, like don't really be just like kind of be present and oh my god, advice for everybody. Be present and trust your instincts, yeah, and like good things will happen.

SPEAKER_02: 59:15

Trust yourself.

SPEAKER_00: 59:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 59:17

You can get through this moment without humor, or you can get through this moment with humor.

SPEAKER_00: 59:22

Totally. Or don't decide in advance. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 59:26

Yeah, just generally trust yourself one way or another.

SPEAKER_00: 59:30

Because usually when something's coming out of my mouth, I'm not sure what it's gonna be. I'm like thinking of it as I'm saying it. So I know for that reason I have embarrassed you're rough drafts. I've embarrassed you, John. In public. In public. Never.

SPEAKER_01: 59:44

Uh we've never been seen in public. We've never what we're about to be. We're taking the show on the road.

SPEAKER_02: 59:50

Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 59:53

I think I brought this up before, but I I remember a comedian saying, and I think this. This could be applied to what you're saying of like sit with it just a little bit longer.

SPEAKER_04: 1:00:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:05

Because the whole thing was don't say like a situation arises, or I think of a situation, don't say the first thing that comes, the first joke that comes to mind because everybody's thinking that. Yeah. And his challenge was to say, if I can, sit on it for a second and think of like the second thing that's a little bit more ratcheted up. And if I can, go to the third thought. Like this idea of like, you know, and it was certainly just about humor, but it's like, don't tell that first joke, because everybody in the room's thinking that first joke. You know, if you can get to that third voice in your head, like that's like fertile ground for like something that people like coming in the opposite direction, or even whether this is something to joke about or not, you know. So even just from a comedic level, yeah, be with it just a little bit longer, you know. Which I thought was an interesting take from that practitioner and the craft. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:01:03

Yeah. That helps you tolerate some distress potentially, and almost be funnier.

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:10

Possibly. Yeah. Yeah. Or you could just say the first thing that comes to mind.

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:16

People be like, yay.

SPEAKER_02: 1:01:17

Listen, the Taylor Swift album. First trap.

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:21

Sometimes the first thing is funny. Yeah. And it just is funny. Totally. Even if everybody's thinking it.

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:26

But you have to say it before other people have even thought of it.

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:28

You have to say it. And if they don't respond, say it louder and repeat it.

SPEAKER_02: 1:01:32

Yeah.

unknown: 1:01:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:01:34

Yeah. Just keep saying it, shake everyone to get them going.

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:37

Maybe you miss this.

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:38

Make direct eye contact. You're not laughing. Repeat the joke. It's not that it's not funny. You just didn't hear me.

SPEAKER_02: 1:01:44

But I feel like we have all met people, or probably been close to people in our lives. The three of us who like love humor had like friends. I can think of my friend growing up, Maggie DePoy. Shout out to her. Just the funny bone is like every bone in her butt. Oh, yeah. It's a funny bone. Everything out of her mouth was the funniest thing I'd ever heard. Like natural, just so, so funny. And I'm almost like the different rules sort of apply to that person.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:12

Different rules. And yeah, those are the funniest people, the ones that aren't even trying.

SPEAKER_02: 1:02:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:16

It's just it just is somehow they're just a funny person.

SPEAKER_02: 1:02:21

Yeah. It's cool. It's wild. Yeah. You should never like deprive yourself of like that experience, you know. And I will say I do, I'm biased, but I think all three of us are pretty funny.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:31

I agree.

SPEAKER_02: 1:02:31

So and that's case. Hot take. I don't think it's a hot take.

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:35

I think that's I don't think any of us are very funny.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:37

I think it's uh it's proven. It's in medical journals. We are all funny.

SPEAKER_02: 1:02:42

Totally. Okay. Any last thoughts on using humor to cope?

SPEAKER_00: 1:02:48

Funny or die, go.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:50

I think it's I think it's the fact that we're even saying to cope, right? Using, I think it can be used to cope. I do too. It is, yeah, it can be a very effective tool. So again, not an indictment on humor at all. No. I think just things to think about. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:07

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:07

And I always I do really encourage people to think about the self-deprecating humor if they're making themselves the butt of all the jokes, or they're the, you know, those whatever the labels are. They're the disorganized one, or they're the crazy one, the crazy friend, or they're the too emotional, you know, and they make light of that, or you know, I think that is something to just be aware of and kind of explore more of.

SPEAKER_04: 1:03:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:33

Because a lot of those labels are like, it's like it's okay to be emotional. That's not something to joke about, right? Some of us feel our emotions more than others. Right. You know, totally. Some of us are more organized than others. We don't have to make a joke about it, right? You know, like so. I think going to those places or maybe exploring that can be useful.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:51

Yeah, definitely. I agree. I agree. Any last thoughts from you, Josh?

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:56

But could you joke about something and be okay with it?

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:59

Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:00

And even maybe feel more okay with it. Being able to joke about it. And at the same time, deeply.

SPEAKER_02: 1:04:08

Well, I'm I'm gonna say this the joking isn't what makes you okay with it. I think it can coexist with the being okay with it. But I don't think we find true acceptance and resolution just by joking.

SPEAKER_00: 1:04:20

I think we can compromise there. Okay. Shake hands about it.

SPEAKER_02: 1:04:24

Okay, we shake hands. Okay. Okay, so maybe we'll move into our how wise is it section.

SPEAKER_01: 1:04:30

How wise is it?

SPEAKER_02: 1:04:31

How wise is it to care about Prime Day as Prime Day is either coming up or happening right now.

SPEAKER_01: 1:04:39

I can't even keep track. There's so many. I mean, I first think we need to it's days. It's not a day anymore. They say it's prime day. It used to be one day.

SPEAKER_02: 1:04:49

Did it one day per year?

SPEAKER_01: 1:04:51

I thought so.

SPEAKER_02: 1:04:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 1:04:52

Isn't that why it was called Prime Prime Day? I don't know the history. I don't know the history either, but it seems like it was not as often as it's happening now.

SPEAKER_02: 1:05:03

It's kind of like Black Friday, like how it used to literally used to be one day.

SPEAKER_01: 1:05:06

Yeah, but now Prime Day is like every three months. I feel like there's like another one.

SPEAKER_02: 1:05:11

Right. Black Friday is like two weeks long. Yeah. Yeah, they've got to do it. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01: 1:05:14

I mean, how much how wise is it? Yeah, how much do you care about it?

SPEAKER_02: 1:05:17

You know, it's funny. It's like I don't like if I just like think about it on a random day. I'm not like waiting for Prime Day to get that thing. But I do, I mean, because I'm like a cog in the capitalist wheel.

SPEAKER_04: 1:05:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:05:30

I go on Amazon to get stuff from like Q-tips to, you know, yeah, whatever. And I, you know, it's plastic, prime day, prime day, prime day, prime day. And you start to think to yourself, like, well, I guess should I care? Like, are things like significantly cheaper? Everything's so, so expensive right now, right? That I'm like, should I? So I'm sort of like torn on it. I ultimately think it's unwise to be super dialed into sales.

SPEAKER_01: 1:06:01

Yeah. But even you talking about it made me think that there might be some inherent wisdom in actually buying things on Prime Day that are like useful. Like you were mentioning items like Q-tips. Mainly Q-tips. Just basically Q-tips and cotton balls. But but it may be cleaning it. I I don't know. Yeah. Versus like clothing or another pair of shoes, or get oh and the thing about gadgets, this is kind of a sidebar. I feel like I'm running into it's almost like Groundhog Day.

SPEAKER_03: 1:06:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:06:37

Every prime day that comes now, I feel like it's the same things they're trying to sell you at the same markdown. Like the stick vacuum cleaners, every time it's a prime thing. I don't know. There are certain brands I feel like it's a trick. It's like every single prime day, it's like the same deal on the same thing.

SPEAKER_02: 1:06:54

Yeah. Well, they artificially mark things up, so then psychologically, you feel like you're getting a deal, but they're giving you like the more realistic prices.

SPEAKER_01: 1:07:00

Yeah, it's like the dice in vacuum. That's what it is. Like those, it's like, okay.

SPEAKER_02: 1:07:05

Like, okay, everyone need that. And their mom has this thing.

SPEAKER_01: 1:07:08

Or the little green clean machine, the bistle. That's always on side.

SPEAKER_02: 1:07:11

You know what's so funny? I, for the first time ever, was like, I think I want to get one of those.

SPEAKER_01: 1:07:15

I have one.

SPEAKER_02: 1:07:16

Is it good?

SPEAKER_01: 1:07:16

And I probably bought it on a prime day. I mean, it's definitely good for little kids and stains and those types of things. I'm sure it's great if you have a pet. Pets.

SPEAKER_02: 1:07:28

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 1:07:29

Um, we don't, but I'm sure it's great for that.

SPEAKER_02: 1:07:32

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 1:07:33

So I think there is some maybe some wisdom if you could truly buy some bulk maybe items that you know you're gonna use.

SPEAKER_02: 1:07:41

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 1:07:42

I don't think it's that wise for me to go on the website and really toil over like finding a deal. I think that is a is not wise for me. It's a time suck, and I always come out disappointed. Yeah. Because I don't find anything.

SPEAKER_02: 1:07:55

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 1:07:56

I agree. You know.

SPEAKER_02: 1:07:57

What do you think, Josh?

SPEAKER_00: 1:07:58

Not wise. Not wise.

SPEAKER_02: 1:08:00

Okay, tell us.

SPEAKER_00: 1:08:01

Okay, let's say a a little prayer. Um let's say you got a list of things you need and they're things that are on Amazon. I would say have Prime Day in your calendar. Take a look, think, oh, Prime Day's coming up. Can I wait a week or two to get this thing? If I get it on Prime Day, I'm gonna get a better deal. I'm gonna get this thing anyway. So if you have a running queue of items.

SPEAKER_02: 1:08:28

So you think it is wise?

SPEAKER_00: 1:08:30

Okay. As always, I'm not gonna answer the question. I I think if your strategy is like, oh, it's prime day, I'm gonna go on a shopping spree.

SPEAKER_03: 1:08:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:08:40

And like find all these things and start buying things I hadn't even like thought of before today because oh my god, I'm getting such a good deal. It's free, it's free. I think that's unwise.

SPEAKER_02: 1:08:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:08:51

And I'm I guess I'm a little like on the end of like you probably get you probably get off Kelly, like spending a little bit.

SPEAKER_02: 1:08:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:08:59

Well, lately you've been getting off saving.

SPEAKER_02: 1:09:01

I mean trying.

SPEAKER_00: 1:09:02

Yeah. Um, trying. We we went and crying. We went to Whole Foods for all our groceries this week, and I just gotta say the salad was great.

SPEAKER_02: 1:09:11

I mean, it was like breathing oxygen.

SPEAKER_00: 1:09:13

I wanted to cry. Same. But we're gonna keep shopping at TJRs. We're gonna we're gonna forward. We're crying in a different way. Yeah. But yeah, I guess I get this is always my mantra is like get what you actually need. I guess what you need. Yeah. And I'm like that with stuff, because what what what I don't need that I'm not gonna get on Prime Day are concert tickets and alcohol, which I do need. Um but they're not selling them on Amazon. Are they selling either of those things on Amazon Prime day?

SPEAKER_02: 1:09:46

What things? Sorry.

SPEAKER_00: 1:09:47

Concert tickets and alcohol?

SPEAKER_01: 1:09:48

I've never heard of a concert ticket being sold on the card.

SPEAKER_02: 1:09:51

But they sell alcohol, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:09:52

Alcohol you might have to sign for though.

SPEAKER_02: 1:09:54

Yeah. You basically like tick a box that says you're 21.

SPEAKER_01: 1:09:57

It's crazy. Whoa, I'd feel I'd just feel funny about it. Oh, you don't sign it when they delivered it? Oh, maybe you do. I thought you, I thought somebody at 21 had to accept the package. Oh, honestly, you might be right about that. I think.

SPEAKER_00: 1:10:09

Well, let's say Prime Day comes up, we're out of Tito's. Can we get like three dollars off on it? Sure. I don't I'd feel weird ordering alcohol in the mail. Yeah. I don't want to do it. But I think it's gonna make me feel gross.

SPEAKER_01: 1:10:22

Yeah, so you're the the wisdom, the wisdom there is like wants versus needs, too. Like they're like, don't go on prime thinking I want this.

SPEAKER_00: 1:10:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:10:32

Feel it out more as like, are these things I I'm gonna need anyway? And there's some wisdom with that. Yeah, yeah. And don't scroll down to customers all also bought this, because that's a trap right there.

SPEAKER_02: 1:10:43

That's a total trap.

SPEAKER_01: 1:10:44

Because that algorithm will get you every time, and then you'll be like, oh yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, I bought the sketchpad, obviously, I need the 100 set of markers with it. Totally.

SPEAKER_02: 1:10:57

Well, and it's like this is especially goes out to my girlies and men and however you identify those of us who like can easily overspend. Or even like, not even just thinking of overspending, like overconsuming. But like sales, they've they've really proven that like sales and like deals and points and rewards like really uh influence like overconsumption. And over consumption, I've just noticed in my own life, is like such a demoralizing, like take me away from my self-worth in practice. You know, it's it's so like defensive, it's so like trying to be good enough when I already am good enough. And I think it's like I've realized like I am the prime candidate.

SPEAKER_01: 1:11:44

Prime candidate. Whoa, whoa, whoa, the stars have a line theory. We broke some new ground there, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:11:52

But I really am the prime candidate for like credit card kind of like tricks and prime day sales and all these things where it's like, oh come on, it's basically free, and it's like I just buy stuff I don't need, don't feel fulfilled by, and like there's just more of a void within. So I think it's like for you two who don't do that, like it's probably much safer to engage with Prime Day, especially for necessities. Like for someone like me, it's almost better that I like totally try to opt out. I mean, it'd probably be better for me to opt out of Amazon Prime altogether, you know, and not the convenience of it really makes it easy for me to overconsume and feel like an emptiness.

SPEAKER_01: 1:12:37

Yeah. Well, and it also trickles down because I'm even thinking of my kids' experience and just the idea of not waiting for anything, where it's like, oh, well, if you just go, can't we just get it tomorrow? And in most cases, you can get it within one to two days.

SPEAKER_04: 1:12:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:12:54

And is that the most effective thing? Probably not, right? Even for ourselves to just like sit with not having things. Totally. But certainly from a parenting lens of, yeah, maybe they shouldn't get it right away.

SPEAKER_03: 1:13:10

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 1:13:10

You know, like maybe you can wait on this for a little bit and see how you feel in four days, and maybe you actually won't want that thing that you're so desperate to get. Yeah. You know, and it's like it's and I'm as guilty as the next person of just being like, great, we'll get this thing tomorrow perfect. And there's so many, there's so many parenting things that that is so useful for when you've run out of it, or you know, you need something, and it's just you don't have time to go, like maybe to a store, but it could be delivered overnight. Like that can be really useful. But even just taking that step back, that pause from it, but yeah, right. What are these things like for kids? Yeah, things they want. If you know, oh, things that they want or like parenting needs? Uh things that they want. You name it, a pair of sunglasses. I remember my youngest was like waiting almost on our front steps because he wanted this pair of sunglasses so bad, and we were like, Yeah, it's gonna get delivered tomorrow. And he just like could not get it out of his head.

SPEAKER_02: 1:14:09

He was like, Oh, this is coming.

SPEAKER_01: 1:14:11

But it's like when I was a kid, if you wanted a pair of sunglasses, like, okay, well, I guess we're gonna have to go to the mall or we're gonna have to go, we're gonna have to go to a store, you know, and do that. And if that just didn't work out in the schedule, like, well, you were SOL, and then you just had to wait for a time in your schedule where uh, you know, but it's like with that click, it's like, okay, they know it's coming. And so yeah, it could be toys, sunglasses, jerseys, shirts, okay, sporting goods, uh, you know, a new um, what was the thing over the summer that they were really excited about? Oh, like a new wiffle ball bat. They were really excited about that coming the next day. So yeah, I mean, you name it. Amazon sells everything, and that's true. Kids just want it all. So yeah. God, it's but I do think is there uh I I just thought of this though. Is there any version of it where even if we are using now, certainly for necessities, probably not, but are there like small businesses on Amazon that you can like search for? I know you're going through Amazon and that sounds stupid. I'm like almost judging myself for saying that, but aren't there like women-owned businesses or yeah, that sell their stuff through Amazon? So could you try to be more thoughtful even in that and like support them?

SPEAKER_02: 1:15:28

I think you could one's ability to truly decipher. I know that's the hard thing.

SPEAKER_01: 1:15:33

How much supporting that business, or maybe those businesses don't even do Prime Day because they can't afford the discount.

SPEAKER_02: 1:15:41

You know, that like and I think it's like maybe like independent businesses that put some of their stuff on Amazon, like their goal is like discoverability through Amazon, routing people to their personal website. So I mean, you could what you could do is order from one of those if you really like the stuff, like next time order it directly from the website of the independent owner. If you get a book, you we need it the next day.

SPEAKER_01: 1:16:06

You know, that is something I've been trying to not do and really use the library a lot more. I've been trying to sit on the patience, which has been hard, of I'm gonna put this book on hold. Yeah, I'm not gonna just click and get it tomorrow. On your Kindle. Yeah, no, like the physical book. Oh, I mean, either way, like on my Kindlewood, I've been trying to get more into physical books, but it's just so easy when I have the urge to read something, same, to just get it delivered. And I'm really trying to use the library a lot more and just be like, just be patient. Like you'll find something else, that book will come, don't buy it. And what's really nice now is the Chicago Public Library, they will send you when you take out books, they'll send you the receipt via email, and then it'll tell you how many, how much money you've saved through the year on all of the books you've taken out. Genius. And we're with the kids and everything, and Sarah and myself, like all these accounts are linked, like we're probably close to$2,000.

SPEAKER_02: 1:17:03

Oh Whoa, that's so much more than I thought you were gonna say.

SPEAKER_01: 1:17:08

Well, I mean, my book, my books, my kids take out like 10 books at a time sometimes. Oh wow, you know, and it's little bookworms, yeah. So it's you know, and if you take out a hardcover book, they probably can beat the hardcover price that you're saving. So that's like 30 bucks, you know. Right. So that adds up really quickly. But that's a good reminder for me to be like stick with the the library, you know.

unknown: 1:17:31

Wow.

SPEAKER_01: 1:17:31

And it's hard. Totally. Because when I get the when I read a review of a book, I like wanna like it, I really want to read it like today, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 1:17:40

God, it would be amazing if there was like a separate app that's in that vein that's like every time you're thinking about buying something and you end up choosing not to, it's like put it in that app and then see at the end of the year.

SPEAKER_00: 1:17:51

That's a genius idea. Someone should steal this idea.

SPEAKER_03: 1:17:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:17:56

If you're listening and want to steal this idea, uh don't please read please don't. Or at least give Kelly royalties. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:18:05

So approach with caution.

SPEAKER_03: 1:18:06

Approach with as always with these how myself.

SPEAKER_01: 1:18:09

Yes, yeah. Intuition, balance, yeah, emotional, rational. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 1:18:16

Yeah. Okay. So that's our that's our episode.

SPEAKER_01: 1:18:20

That's our episode.

SPEAKER_02: 1:18:22

Okay, thanks so much for joining us. If you want to um reach me, I can be found at kkpsychsotherapy.com. If you want to work with me, if you want to learn about my philosophy, if you want to ask questions about the pod, suggest topics, anything um you want us to take like a wise-minded eye to, um, yeah, send those to kkpsychotherapy.com and the inquiry page. And John, any plugs?

SPEAKER_01: 1:18:53

Uh well, I want to plug that book that I mentioned earlier if people are interested. It's Climate Psychology and Change. Um, and it's a longer title, but it's written by Steffi Bednerek. So if you're interested in checking that out. So interesting. Don't need to be a therapist to check it out. Just interesting in how we sit with this global crisis. Um yeah, reach out to me, but's b utz.jonathan at gmail.com. And I'm excited. I'm also gonna plug, we're all seeing a movie together this weekend.

SPEAKER_02: 1:19:23

Yes, we're gonna go see one battle.

SPEAKER_01: 1:19:25

And I have not been to the music box in a while, so I'm excited to go back. That's why I asked you if it's reserved seats, because I haven't been there. I didn't know if this is. No, yeah, it's just like regular old seating right now. Love it. Yeah, pretty regular, yeah. Throwback. Anyway. So fun. Can't wait to see the movie.

SPEAKER_02: 1:19:39

And I think it's 70 millimeter.

SPEAKER_00: 1:19:41

Oh my god. Oh, wait, I might be wrong about that. No, I'm pretty sure you're right about that. Was it in 70 millimeter at Alamo?

SPEAKER_03: 1:19:48

I think it was because there were these little like bubbles on the cigarette burns.

SPEAKER_00: 1:19:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:19:53

Yeah, that's when they changed the reels. Yeah. I'm pretty sure that ticket that I bought said that. Nice. So anyway, I'll plug. And we'll debrief next in our next episode.

SPEAKER_02: 1:20:05

But Josh. Yes, we will debrief it in the next. Josh plugs.

SPEAKER_00: 1:20:08

I'm gonna plug Unabridged Bookstore in Lakeview. Love Unabridged. Yes. Because they always it's funny, as we were talking, I was like, there's this irony no one's talking about of um like comedic irony of like it's faster to buy a book online and wait for it to ship to you than to like drive somewhere and buy a book in your neighborhood. Right. A lot of the time, yeah, they probably do need to special order it and they would get it, like they'll be like, oh, I can get it in a week, and Amazon, it's like, we'll get you it in like maybe today. But they always have everything I'm looking for. Wow, they have great stock. I feel like I always have like fun conversations with the people working there. It's like a bunch of hipster nerds, which is a plus coming from me. Love it. And like they'll be reading something, and I'll be like, What's you reading? And like, you know, I'll write it down on my book list. And it's just it's just like a good feeling to be in a bookstore, even if for sure two minutes. And I'll go and I'll pick it up.

SPEAKER_01: 1:21:03

It's on Broadway, it's right by Nettle Horse. There's also a Stan's Donuts over there. Get a donut. Get a donut while you do it. Yeah, the staff picks, the descriptions are great in there.

SPEAKER_00: 1:21:13

I know.

SPEAKER_01: 1:21:13

Love it.

SPEAKER_00: 1:21:14

I gotta go.

SPEAKER_02: 1:21:14

I don't think I've been in there.

SPEAKER_00: 1:21:16

It's on Broadway? No. No, we've never been in there together, but it's my favorite bookstore in Chicago.

SPEAKER_02: 1:21:22

Wow, I gotta go. Um I like that women and children first, too.

SPEAKER_00: 1:21:26

Yeah, and there's that other good one in Wicker Park. What is it, wormhole, or is that the coffee?

SPEAKER_02: 1:21:31

Coffee is wormhole. Yeah, what's that one in Wicker?

SPEAKER_00: 1:21:35

I remember I went when I was a myopic. Myopics. That place is cool. Very cool. It's like a single file line. It's next door maybe. It's like a little maze. Yeah.

unknown: 1:21:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:21:46

They kind of like force you to browse. That's nice. Love that. JoshBearfilms.com. That's where you can find me.

SPEAKER_02: 1:21:54

And you can find him sipping an espresso at Unabridged.

SPEAKER_00: 1:21:59

Exactly. Well, thank you, Blanket Forts, for the music. Thank you, Blanket Forts. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01: 1:22:06

And we will see you all next week.

SPEAKER_02: 1:22:08

Yeah, thank you. See you next week. Bye. Bye. Bye. The Wisemind Happy Hour podcast is for entertainment purposes only, not to be treated as medical advice. If you are struggling with your mental health, please seek medical attention or counseling.