our spookiest episode ever: VALUES

Values...what even are they? We all talk about values, but do we really understand them? Values are an elusive beast. More abstract than goals, but ultimately at the core of our essence. On this EXTREMELY SPOOKY EPISODE, we talk about how to untangle our own values from those we've been taught, what we'd want people to say at our 80th birthdays, and whether or not it's wise to scare ourselves...BOO!

- music by blanket forts -

Chapters

• 0:00 Cold Opens, Cooking, And The Game
• 8:40 Michael Douglas, Fincher, And 90s Thrillers
• 18:50 Dining Out, Hospitality, And Etiquette
• 26:40 Kids’ Birthdays, Costumes, And Parenting
• 38:30 School Rules, Food Allergies, And Nostalgia
• 47:20 Turning To Values: ACT And Hexaflex
• 57:30 Values vs Goals And Everyday Meaning
• 1:09:20 Finding Your Values: Inventories And Exercises
• 1:20:00 Personal Values, Flexibility, And Context
• 1:31:10 Costs, Commitment, And Real-Life Tradeoffs

Transcript

Cold Opens, Cooking, And The Game

SPEAKER_04 0:04

Welcome to the Wise Mind Happy Hour. I'm John.

SPEAKER_01 0:07

I'm Kelly.

SPEAKER_04 0:08

Welcome to our Halloween spectacular episode. We're actually not going to talk about anything. No, we should.

SPEAKER_02 0:18

That might be as much Halloween as we cover.

SPEAKER_04 0:21

It's that's that's a lot.

SPEAKER_02 0:22

Although maybe our Howis is it'll be a little bit. It's seasonal, totally.

SPEAKER_04 0:27

What's new with you?

SPEAKER_02 0:29

What's new with me? I was just thinking about that before we uh logged on here. Um basically, Josh and I had a weekend at home, which was pretty nice. That is nice in the city. Um, so we mostly were hanging at home, cooking at home a little bit. We made, well, we posted a cooking video, which some of you saw. Um what was the dish? The dish was Molly Boz's, well, it's her chicken au poiv, but we made a version of it and we made it with halibut. So like you know like steak au poiv, like halibut au poiv. Yeah. So instead of like using the steak like juices to get it really like funky, she uses miso.

SPEAKER_04 1:06

Oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_02 1:07

So it's pretty good. It's right up my alley, it's very salty, which I'm a salt freak. Um, but yeah, what did I make? I'm trying to remember, Josh, what I made. I made a couple recipes. Oh, pumpkin pancakes, speaking of Halloween forced seasonal. Oh, I tried to make this pumpkin cold foam. It was really not good. It didn't turn out, and I made way too much of it. That's all right. Which, whatever. Um Friday, what did we do? We had the cold foam.

SPEAKER_04 1:42

We had it.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

Oh, we watched the game.

SPEAKER_02 1:45

Oh my god, with Michael Douglas. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:48

Oh, I've seen that multiple times.

SPEAKER_02 1:50

Do you like it?

SPEAKER_04 1:51

I did find it pretty enjoyable. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:54

Um definitely enjoyable. It's kind of wacky.

SPEAKER_04 1:57

Oh, yeah. That's a great descriptor of it. For sure it is. Yeah, it's a fincher film, right?

SPEAKER_02 2:02

Yes, and I was kind of expecting a Fincher, like a zodiac level, like sharp, serious.

SPEAKER_04 2:08

You didn't feel like it was Fincher-esque?

SPEAKER_02 2:11

Maybe it was the Michael Douglas of it all.

SPEAKER_04 2:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:14

Who to me is ridiculous. Yeah, sure. There's a scene where a dog is like supposed to be biting him, obviously he's not biting the actor. Yeah. And the way he's like flying his body, yeah. I'm like, how did David Venture not catch this and try to make it a little more realistic? Look, yeah. Which maybe David Venture did that later in his career, where you make someone do a thousand takes of one scene or whatever. But I definitely by the end was like, Are you kidding me? That's how it ends.

SPEAKER_04 2:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:42

Like, pretty crazy. The premise is crazy.

SPEAKER_04 2:44

The premise is crazy and it's kind of fun. Premise. It's totally it's not a fun movie, I would say. Yeah. The premise is not something because that came out in like late 90s. Right. So that that was uh is that what it was? 96.

SPEAKER_02 3:00

97? 97, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:02

I'm not a film, you know, I don't know all types of film, including foreign, but that was definitely something I'd never seen before, that concept on film when I saw it. So I thought it was highly entertaining. Yeah, it is. Even Sean Penn is really over the top in some of his scenes, right? Um, too. But yeah, I would I would recommend people to watch that, give it a view.

SPEAKER_02 3:23

Yeah, I think it was like fun. Like, I don't know if I could go as far as to say it's like a good movie. Sure. I guess what I'm like, I think I'm unfairly comparing it to like the social network. Because I was like, oh my god, an early fincher, I can't wait. Yeah. And then I was sort of like, wait, what? Yeah, that's the premise. And it was like because the whole time you can't figure out really what the game is.

SPEAKER_04 3:45

That's the whole premise of the movie.

SPEAKER_02 3:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:46

And then Or at least that's what he's trying to do is to figure out what the game is, right?

SPEAKER_02 3:51

And there's something about him as an actor. Because I said to Josh, we watched Fatal Attraction. Have you seen that?

SPEAKER_04 3:56

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:57

He like plays his roles so serious that sometimes it almost seems ridiculous. Like when he's being businessman, he's business man.

SPEAKER_04 4:08

Well, don't you think that's why they he probably was cast? Because at that moment of time in film, he that he was like call central casting for a lead who needs to be cold, yeah, sinister, like cutthroat business person. Yeah, you know, I mean he established that with Wall Street, probably, and then from then for the next 15 years he was cast like that, probably.

SPEAKER_02 4:31

Right. Wait, he was in Wall Street with Charlie Sheen.

SPEAKER_04 4:34

Yeah, Gordon Gacko. He was Gordon, yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_02 4:38

Okay, and they're not related, those actors.

SPEAKER_04 4:42

The Sheens? Or there's Martin and Charlie, and then Emilio Esteves is his.

SPEAKER_02 4:46

But Michael Douglas isn't related to them.

SPEAKER_04 4:48

No, he's related to Kirk Douglas.

SPEAKER_02 4:50

He almost looks like Mark Martin Sheen a little.

SPEAKER_04 4:54

Oh, you think so?

SPEAKER_02 4:55

Like, almost. I don't know. Anyway, but like him and Fatal Attraction, like, and and Glenn Close is a little theatrical in that too.

SPEAKER_04 5:04

You think?

SPEAKER_02 5:05

Like, they have like a makeout scene. Well, yeah, her being violent.

SPEAKER_04 5:10

Dan.

SPEAKER_02 5:12

Like that movie is nuts. Even it's like the scenes where she's attacking them.

SPEAKER_04 5:15

It's like she's flailing her body all over the street. You don't look at rabbits the same after you watch that movie.

SPEAKER_02 5:21

Oh my god. Totally. Yeah, that movie was wild. They're so totally similar to me, which is crazy. Yeah. Who who did Fatal Attraction? It's not Vincher.

SPEAKER_04 5:32

Oh, I don't know who directed that.

SPEAKER_02 5:34

Brian De Palma? Is that what we decided? Brian, little Brian De Palma.

SPEAKER_04 5:38

Jonathan Demi. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 5:40

It's like Michael Douglas. Like, is he a good actor? Like, I think a lot of people would say yes, and I would say, like, no. But maybe he's a great actor because he's giving you exactly like theater. Because he is. And maybe there's something to appreciate about that. Because everything now, I feel like every movie now is so realistic.

SPEAKER_04 5:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:00

You feel like, oh, that's actually what people talk like.

SPEAKER_04 6:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:03

That's kind of the whole vibe. And and those movies feel very like his home in San Francisco in that movie is like ridiculous mansion, ridiculous.

SPEAKER_04 6:12

I'm trying to like go through the catalog of his movies because I'm thinking of like Basic Instinct.

SPEAKER_02 6:19

Yeah. Oh, another one.

SPEAKER_04 6:20

Black Rain. Um He really He was in traffic.

SPEAKER_02 6:27

Traffic? Who did that?

SPEAKER_04 6:28

That was an ensemble cast. Because Vinicio was in that, right? Yes. And so was Don Cheadle. And I mean, there was a lot. Catherine Zeta Jones. Maybe they met on that movie together. Um and there was multiple storylines, and I don't I haven't seen that in such a long time. I don't remember how much screen time he had, but uh did you check on that? What do you got?

SPEAKER_00 6:50

Directorian Lynn.

SPEAKER_04 6:52

I don't know who that is.

SPEAKER_00 6:53

He did uh Jacob's Ladder.

SPEAKER_04 6:54

Oh, that's a weird movie.

SPEAKER_02 6:56

Isn't that one's famously supposed to be terrible?

SPEAKER_00 6:58

Jacob's Ladder? Yeah. You've heard it's terrible.

SPEAKER_02 7:00

They always make fun of it on how did this get me?

SPEAKER_00 7:03

So so it's scary.

SPEAKER_04 7:06

I it's a very scary, it's a horror movie.

SPEAKER_00 7:08

I haven't seen it since I was like two.

SPEAKER_04 7:10

Halloween special. We actually did not know we were going to talk about Jacob's Ladder. But do you know what that means in reference to when they say, oh, they pulled a Jacob's Ladder on us? Do you know what that means? It means that everything you just watched was a dream series.

SPEAKER_02 7:24

Oh, Jesus. Okay. Sorry for that. That's why people don't like it.

SPEAKER_04 7:26

Sorry for the people who have not seen Jacob's Ladder yet. Uh that's the whole The whole thing. Or where they'll like on how did this get made, be like, oh my god, is this was this really a dream? Is this a Jacobs Ladder scenario? You know, that type of thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:41

Or in a Jacob Ladder Jacob's Ladder. I've heard them say that a million times.

SPEAKER_04 7:44

Which that was um who was that? Tim Tim Robbins.

SPEAKER_00 7:51

Tim Robbins, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 7:53

Terri terrifying movie.

SPEAKER_00 7:54

So scary. Very scary. It's got demons every second. Oh demon there, demon there, and the core. There's like a weightlifting demon, I think. It's like some muscle man.

SPEAKER_04 8:05

It's bad. It's bad.

SPEAKER_00 8:07

Is it bad?

SPEAKER_04 8:08

No, it's I meant I didn't mean it was bad. I meant like it's like terrifying. Scary. Scary.

SPEAKER_00 8:13

I know I thought it was scary, but I really haven't seen it since I was two.

SPEAKER_04 8:16

I it's a movie that I saw once, and I was like, I don't ever want to see that movie.

SPEAKER_02 8:21

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_04 8:22

Let's watch it tonight.

SPEAKER_02 8:23

So that guy made Fatal Attraction in Jacob's Ladder. And Lolita? Oh, Unfaithful.

SPEAKER_04 8:30

Oh, that's also Michael Douglas.

SPEAKER_02 8:32

Michael is incredible.

SPEAKER_04 8:34

Isn't Michael Douglas in that? Oh, it's Richard Gere.

Michael Douglas, Fincher, And 90s Thrillers

SPEAKER_02 8:37

Which honestly, Michael Douglas would have killed that role. Although he might have made it a little more heightened.

SPEAKER_04 8:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:44

Because Richard Gere plays it kind of quiet.

SPEAKER_04 8:47

He's another one where they, if you need uh what am I trying to say? Like corporate lawyer, district attorney, businessman. Yeah. Because I think of Primal Fear when I think of it. Totally. That's a great movie. It is a great movie.

SPEAKER_02 9:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 9:01

Ed Norton.

SPEAKER_02 9:02

You my you told me to watch that because my mom and I were watching classic movies and we watched it and it was great.

SPEAKER_04 9:07

Loved it. That was like Ed Norton's big first movie.

SPEAKER_02 9:12

Yeah. I I really like Unfaithful. I th actually think it's a pretty good movie.

SPEAKER_04 9:16

Who is who's the lead?

SPEAKER_02 9:19

Diane Lane.

SPEAKER_04 9:21

Oh.

SPEAKER_02 9:21

She's great. Smoke show.

SPEAKER_04 9:25

I mean, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:27

Yeah, she has a very like je ne sais quoi.

SPEAKER_04 9:30

For sure.

SPEAKER_02 9:30

Yeah, she's great. Um, and then the French guy in it is like really oh yeah.

SPEAKER_04 9:35

Yeah. He never remember his name, but and a lot of stuff.

SPEAKER_02 9:40

He's very and he's very like charming and yeah.

SPEAKER_04 9:43

So you watched the game.

SPEAKER_02 9:47

The game. And then we we did have a nice night out. We I really wanted to take Josh to this like cool new, like kind of like French-ish bar in the city and then go to dinner, which we did do, which was very fun. Although I will say, some of these bars in the Westloop, like if you're over 30, you feel like you're 75.

SPEAKER_04 10:04

I'm sure.

SPEAKER_02 10:05

In these bars, right? Like everyone's young.

SPEAKER_00 10:08

You're saying everyone is 75?

SPEAKER_02 10:10

No, like if you no, if you go and you're our age, you feel like if you're over 30, you're we were 75.

SPEAKER_00 10:19

Yeah, you're gonna feel like a dinosaur. Yeah. Young kids next to us just drinking wine.

SPEAKER_02 10:24

Yeah. So which, like, whatever. But but it was good, it's cute in there. And we got like a little snack because we our dinner reservation was at 9 45 because we really wanted to go to this place tradeita, and we we couldn't get a reservation any other time. And then we had a really fun time there. The food was really good, and we did not feel like we were 75 there because it's so expensive.

SPEAKER_04 10:44

We didn't get the good for you all that you can stay up that late.

SPEAKER_02 10:48

Oh, yeah, we can do it, we can eat late.

SPEAKER_04 10:51

That's great.

SPEAKER_02 10:51

Yeah, we had a snack at eight, so we could do it.

SPEAKER_04 10:55

You're living the life, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:56

I know, right?

SPEAKER_04 10:57

I'll live vicariously through that. That's great.

SPEAKER_02 10:59

Totally. These years pre-any children were squeezing it out. Um, but it was fun, and yeah, yeah, that was great. The waiter said we were his favorite customers of the day, which we literally didn't do anything.

SPEAKER_04 11:15

Do you think he says that to every table?

SPEAKER_02 11:16

Well, he gave us two free items. And he goes, I gave us two because you're my favorite customers of the day. And we were like, or favorite guests, that's what he said, favorite guests. Then Josh was like, I think he has a crunch on me. Maybe Josh was thinking he was kind of eyeing him a little bit. It's like he's making prolonged eye contact with me. Okay. And I was like, he wasn't making prolonged eye contact with me, and he definitely doesn't didn't straight. And he gave us this little like almost like brandy shot thing while we were like deciding what to order. And then he gave us this free dessert at the end. That was the free dessert was kind of better than the dessert we ordered, which maybe that's why he brought it because it's kind of like this was secretly the best dessert. But it was super nice. But we honestly did so little that I'm like, people here must be kind of rude when they come in.

SPEAKER_04 12:02

Interesting.

SPEAKER_02 12:03

Because like there was really not much we even did.

SPEAKER_04 12:05

I did read an article about how restaurants feel like there is a lack of decorum, specifically post-COVID, and specifically in regards to people just not showing up for reservations, not having the decorum to even call or even like cancel it. And so a lot of restaurants are moving towards that fee if you don't cancel, which you know, a lot of people have a problem with it. Right. And I get it, if you're reserving tables expecting customers, and then you don't make you know, ends meet because people are are just not showing up.

SPEAKER_02 12:44

Yeah, totally. Yeah, that's probably true. It's like I think we're both very polite at a restaurant.

SPEAKER_04 12:51

So I'm sure you're polite at base level, and if you're in the context of the world is not polite, right? You're definitely gonna be the favorite guests. Totally.

SPEAKER_02 13:01

And you know what they really see, he seemed to like that. He was like, What are we celebrating? Because I I mean, I think a lot of people do celebrate when they go there. It's also in a hotel, you know, whatever. And we um we were like nothing, we were like just a night out. Life, and I think he was like obsessed with that. He brought us a candle in the dessert. He's like, for the celebration, and I was like, Yeah, it's like amazing. Like, I guess, yeah, it's right to just go out to dinner.

SPEAKER_04 13:30

Keep using that superpower, string them along, Josh. Get free stuff, you know.

SPEAKER_02 13:34

Maybe that's even a little bit of a like, I hate to say this, but like pre-recession sort of thing. Like they're encouraging people to go out to dinner for no reason because like maybe that's gonna go away.

SPEAKER_04 13:44

Oh, people are clutching their wallets.

SPEAKER_02 13:47

Well, because it's funny, we kind of are starting to. Yeah, and this was one of our like one nights out where we're like, we'll do it one night, not every night. Interesting.

SPEAKER_04 13:55

So his perspective was people are only coming here now for special occasions, right?

SPEAKER_02 14:01

So let's like hype up these people that are just like doing it.

SPEAKER_04 14:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:04

I could go up with a million theories that way. I just thought of that right now because it is ironic that he was like happy we did that when it's actually something we're trying to do less of a little bit. You know, like well, there you go.

SPEAKER_00 14:18

Yeah, that's exactly why.

SPEAKER_02 14:19

That might be why.

SPEAKER_00 14:20

He's giving us incentive, and he took the shine to me.

SPEAKER_02 14:23

Yeah, and he's in love with it.

SPEAKER_00 14:24

I love it. Yeah, yeah, he's our new thruple.

SPEAKER_02 14:27

It did make me, oh yeah, it did make me really want to go back there because it had gotten a little bit of mixed reviews, and I honestly thought the food was great. It was so tasty. Facacha, homemade focaccia. Remember those fried squash blossoms? Yeah. Oh, incredible. And then two really good pastas, olive oil cake, and this like chocolate mousse thing. So good. And martinis, really good. The brandy thing he got us was really good.

SPEAKER_00 14:56

Tasted like butterbeer.

SPEAKER_02 14:57

Yeah, it did. It was like vermouth and something in these like crystal little shot glasses that were so cool. It was great. So that was our big thing of the weekend. I mean, long story long. Yeah, that's what we did over the weekend. How about you?

SPEAKER_04 15:11

Watch the just watch the game again.

SPEAKER_02 15:13

The Packer game.

SPEAKER_04 15:14

No, I'm saying you should just watch the movie again.

SPEAKER_01 15:17

Yeah, we should just why not? Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_04 15:20

Uh well, we celebrated Shane's birthday, my youngest.

SPEAKER_02 15:26

Oh my god, what day?

SPEAKER_04 15:27

Well, his birthday is tomorrow.

SPEAKER_02 15:28

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_04 15:30

So we have eight. He's gonna be eight. So we had a party. Uh so nine of his friends came. We had it at a jump park. We did this last year, too, where it's a trampoline park um with slides, and they reserve like a dodgeball court for a little while, and they get pizza and stuff. So we did that on Saturday morning, Friday night west. My oldest had a flag uh football game. So I took him to that.

SPEAKER_05 15:57

Oh, funny.

SPEAKER_04 15:58

Um, so he's on a team with with uh a buddy of his. Um, they ended up winning, which was fun. And then yeah, so Saturday we did the party, and then Sunday we drove to Milwaukee, visited my family there. Oh they have triggered treating the Sunday before Halloween.

SPEAKER_02 16:13

Oh, the whole city?

SPEAKER_04 16:14

So I think it I don't know exactly. It was always a thing in the surrounding suburbs of Milwaukee, and I think um it was a way for you know everybody to be home. It's kind of during daylight hours, so it's like four to seven.

SPEAKER_01 16:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 16:33

So we were able to go with their cousins and uh my cousin's daughter, who is four now, so she's adorable. She went as a witch. Yeah. Um, so we you know, we got a taste of the the Halloween coming up here, which is great. Wow, oh nice. So it was a busy weekend. It's really funny that they are both doing movie characters. Love it. Wes moodless out. Yeah, so name your your favorite Fincher film because they're they're one of the characters. Um, Wes is being Happy Gilmore.

SPEAKER_02 17:06

Oh my god, I love it.

SPEAKER_04 17:08

So he has the Boston Bruins. Sarah found him a great outfit. The Boston Bruins jersey says Gilmore on the back. Incredible, and he's got purple sweatpants. I love it. And Sarah offered her Uggs to be like the boots, and he has he didn't take her up on it for Milwaukee. I think he should do it.

SPEAKER_01 17:25

Yeah, we could.

SPEAKER_04 17:26

So we had a club and he got comments. He he came up to us every time somebody like recognized was like, Oh, this kid. Yeah, this is great.

SPEAKER_01 17:34

So good.

SPEAKER_04 17:34

Um, and Shane is being Benny the Jet Rodriguez, who's the character from The Sand Lot.

SPEAKER_01 17:40

Oh, yes.

SPEAKER_04 17:41

So he has a jersey and flyers, and yeah, and he's got he rolls up his jeans, it's got a little jeans, it's got a Dodgers hat. Um perfect. It's great. So they're going as like two iconic movie characters this year. I love it. Which is wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 17:57

Oh my god, that's so fun. They wanted that themselves, yes.

SPEAKER_04 18:02

They it sometimes it's so action character heavy, yeah. You know, Marvel character heavy and those types of things, which is fine. That's fun too. And I was Spider-Man growing up, like that was one of my favorite costumes. It's it was just really refreshing this year for them to do like something that I one I haven't seen before. Yeah, I don't think I've seen somebody be Happy Gilmore before, which is such a great idea. Um, and his butt his buddy was his buddy wants to be shooter, shooter McGavin.

SPEAKER_02 18:36

Oh my gosh, one of the greatest characters ever.

SPEAKER_04 18:38

I know. So he's gonna wear McGavin. I think he's gonna wear, I don't know, like a sweater vest or something like that.

SPEAKER_02 18:44

Wow, incredible.

Dining Out, Hospitality, And Etiquette

SPEAKER_04 18:46

Cigar. So um, yeah. So that's what they're being.

SPEAKER_02 18:50

Wow. Are you guys dressing up, mean Sarah?

SPEAKER_04 18:52

You know, I don't think we are. Last year was so cold when we were walking around, and usually what because we're outside so much, I just have a coat on. I don't really, it's kind of I Sarah has like a hat and she she has a a Skittle, like a big like thing that she'll put over. It's a red Skittle, which is great because you can put a you can put that over a jacket, but I don't really have anything like that. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I mean it's hard to especially if you're outside and the weather's cold, it's like kind of hard.

SPEAKER_02 19:26

Yeah, I know here it can be freezing at Halloween, and as an adult, it's hard because I just get cold a lot quicker.

SPEAKER_04 19:34

My kids are running around in shorts all the time and they're warm-blooded. And I don't know when you lose that, but I've I lost that ability to be warm all the time.

SPEAKER_02 19:42

Oh my god, I'm I'm freezing kind of. Yeah, yeah. I feel like even as a kid, I was I have like pictures of me like with like my coat like shoved under my costume, and it looks so dumb.

SPEAKER_04 19:53

But yeah, but it was a busy weekend, and at the trampoline park, the people announce they're like, Oh, right, and Shane's party, meet at the Dodgeball courts, you know. So we go there, and Shane has all of his little rat friends with him, and he's like, All right, we're doing parents versus kids. It's a drop-off party, it's just me. Oh he's like, Sarah's standing to the side. I'm like, well, I guess she's like, I'm not doing that. So I so I step in there and they're just whipping walls at me. I mean, they were soft, but I'm getting hit left, right, front, back, in the face. These kids are just manhandling me. I lasted probably two minutes, and I was like, okay. I was like, can you divide up the teams here? Yeah, it was so funny though. He's like, uh, he's like, we're doing it against the parents. There are no parents here. There's parents. Literally, it's a drop-off party. Oh my god. Uh so that was really funny. And then they had a a thing where you could like it was almost a balance beam, and you had little like jousting sticks, and you could get, and all the kids wanted to just completely hit me off it. Um, so I was just taking just diggers left and right. It's where they have like these like so you're on a balance beam, yeah, and then you have these padded things and you try to knock your opponent off. Uh and they were just loving it. Yeah, I was just taking hits. You know, and they're crotch level, they're like hitting me. Like it's like yikes. Um I was sore after the party. It was like a two-hour party the next day. I was I was like, ugh, sore.

SPEAKER_02 21:24

Yeah, it's like because kids like don't they also don't have the sense of like you're being fragile at all?

SPEAKER_04 21:30

And they're eight, so they're actually somewhat strong now.

SPEAKER_02 21:34

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_04 21:35

But it was fun. I mean, I wouldn't change it for anything. It was fun, and I was like, Whoa.

SPEAKER_02 21:40

Wow. What made you decide to make it a drop-off party versus a like parents hangout party?

SPEAKER_04 21:45

I think that's um that kind of naturally happens. I don't think any one person decides it. I think you kind of get invited to a party, and then all of a sudden you start noticing the invites say, and you could drop your kids off if you want, but feel free to stay. Okay, and then it kind of transitions into just drop off. So I think we're in the zone of feel free to stay. Okay, and or drop off. But I think it really is at this point for him, drop off.

SPEAKER_02 22:20

And he's like because of the age.

SPEAKER_04 22:21

I think so, yeah. Okay. Um and we continue to take him to parties that were drop off slash stay until he was like, No, like I'm fine. Yeah. And and you guys can get fucked over.

SPEAKER_01 22:37

Yeah, get out of here.

SPEAKER_04 22:38

Yeah, get out of here. Unless there's dodgeballs, stay. Um, but now it's just drop them off. Okay, that's great.

SPEAKER_02 22:44

I mean, that's so nice when he goes to parties, you guys get a little time.

SPEAKER_04 22:47

I think it's when they can start to just entertain themselves. Yeah. And depending on where it is, right? People are like, oh great. Yeah, this place is completely enclosed.

SPEAKER_05 22:56

They can't drop them off.

SPEAKER_04 22:59

They're gonna be going late night at Big City and then to Burton's place and ending at Ravens. Ending at Ravens for all you Chicago people out there that have been at late night bars.

SPEAKER_02 23:12

Chicago bars. Um, I feel like I lost my keys at Burton Place.

SPEAKER_04 23:16

So I think that everybody's lost something at Burton's place. Some things.

SPEAKER_01 23:22

Oh my god. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:23

Anyway, but I I think that's one of those things where before you know it, it's just kind of happening.

SPEAKER_01 23:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:29

It's not like a moment in time where it's like, oh, second grade is now drop-off. Yeah. I think.

SPEAKER_02 23:34

Are there any parents, like I imagine there'd be some parents who are a little clingy, like, I don't really want to leave my kid here at once.

SPEAKER_04 23:41

Yeah. I mean, well, I can't tell sometimes whether sometimes we have stayed at a party to help another parent, or because we're just really good friends with them and we just and we just like yeah, totally does well. Or we just really like the family that's having it and we're really good friends with them, and we just kind of hang out with them. I mean, usually these parties are only two hours, two and a half hours. So it's you know, it's like, yeah, let's just visit the whole time, watch the kids have fun. Um, and I think uh yeah, there are some parents that might be more prone to stay and you know, watch the hijinks. Right.

unknown 24:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:19

Okay, cool.

SPEAKER_04 24:20

I know. Great. We but the today was really a day because last night Shane got up at three in the morning, earache.

unknown 24:28

Oh no.

SPEAKER_04 24:29

So I stayed home with him today. Uh and not only did he have an earache, he like busted one of his brackets on his braces. So not only did I have to take him to the doctor today, I was like, well, we're going to the orthodontist too. So because I had the day off and he had to get it fixed.

SPEAKER_02 24:43

It's like happy birthday.

SPEAKER_04 24:44

I know. Luckily, it didn't have an honest birthday. And he was a trooper about it. Yeah. Shout out to you, Shane, because you were a trooper.

SPEAKER_03 24:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:51

Uh he went to the orthodontist, got it taken care of, got the medicine for the earring. But great. So it's been a day. Wow. Me and him tight.

SPEAKER_03 25:00

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_04 25:00

Tight. And we had to go to the store to pick up his treats for his birthday. So what are the treats? Those little chocolate two-bite brownies. They're like these little Mariano sells them. They're really fudgy and just like small.

SPEAKER_02 25:12

Are they like allergy free?

SPEAKER_04 25:13

I could eat. They're nut-free.

SPEAKER_02 25:14

They're not free.

SPEAKER_04 25:16

So they are nut-free.

SPEAKER_02 25:17

Um, so you don't have to get them like gluten-free stuff for school.

SPEAKER_04 25:21

You don't have to. Okay. He I do know that there are some kids who are gluten-free. Guten Free.

SPEAKER_03 25:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 25:27

Um, but you don't, that's not a requirement. Usually nut-free is like the one that they want people to adhere to. Yeah, because I'm not sure. And no homemade stuff.

SPEAKER_01 25:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:36

Everything is like sealed, bought from a store.

SPEAKER_01 25:40

Nothing homemade.

SPEAKER_04 25:41

Yeah. You're not bringing like when you and I were a kid in school and Josh was in school, where it's like, oh, this mom made two cakes, and you're bringing in sheet pans of homemade cakes. That's not happening anymore. Cookies. Yeah, no, not happening. Bake sales, not happening.

SPEAKER_01 25:55

That is devastating.

SPEAKER_04 25:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:59

Yeah. Remember like one time when we were leading groups, someone like put something in the middle of the group room, like on a thing, and it was like, this looks like a social experiment. Yeah. Crazy. Yeah. Wow. That's a big divide between like our childhoods and theirs.

SPEAKER_04 26:14

Yeah. I'm sure some places still have it.

SPEAKER_02 26:17

Oh god. Again, like Texas or something.

SPEAKER_04 26:19

Yeah. Or maybe it's more of a Texas. Maybe it's more of a religious thing to bring your bake goods to a because you know, having grown up as a Catholic, as you did, you know, Sundays were like, yeah, you'd have a bake sale every month or something like that. Where maybe that's still happening. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 26:36

Yeah.

Kids’ Birthdays, Costumes, And Parenting

SPEAKER_04 26:36

Um, yeah, maybe it is. But the school is like sealed. Signed, sealed, delivered.

unknown 26:42

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 26:42

I'm yours.

SPEAKER_02 26:43

Because the fear is the allergies. It's not like anthrax or something.

SPEAKER_04 26:47

It's probably all the above. Yeah. Let's fear all of it, really.

SPEAKER_02 26:51

It's so crazy. Going to school is.

SPEAKER_04 26:53

I mean, yes. I think initially the fear is probably like we don't know how this is prepared.

SPEAKER_02 26:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 26:57

We don't know what surface it's prepared on. We don't, you know. So I think that's probably the main one. And why not be extra cautious?

SPEAKER_02 27:06

Right. Why not be extra cautious? Wow. So well, shout out to Shane. Happy early birthday.

SPEAKER_04 27:11

Happy early birthday. He's gonna get up tomorrow and be so happy. I'm hoping.

SPEAKER_02 27:16

Will he take the day off?

SPEAKER_04 27:18

He took the day off today for an ear rake. Okay, so he's gone. Going to school. I'm not staying home with that guy again. But it's nice because his it's a fun week. He got you, he already had when we were in Milwaukee and we did the you know the Halloween kind of stuff. He also, my mom had made a cake for him and his cousin Emmett because they both have October birthdays. So we got some presents there. He'll get presents from us tomorrow. And then he's got Halloween on Friday. So it's really like a fun week. Incredible. I know. If it I mean it's a good week to have your birthday, it's a fun for a kid. Yeah. If you're in school, I always had a summer birthday, which I always enjoyed because I was never in school and I loved that. I didn't want to be in school for my birthday. But some kids do.

SPEAKER_02 27:59

But yeah, if you have to have a school year birthday, I mean October.

SPEAKER_04 28:02

I feel like this is a great time of year to have it.

SPEAKER_02 28:03

October birthday is king shit.

SPEAKER_04 28:06

Because there's candy everywhere.

SPEAKER_02 28:07

Yeah. You can't escape it. It's it's everywhere. And it's just like so crisp and cute out and like spooky and fun. Like Halloween is a Halloween Halloween.

SPEAKER_01 28:19

The mics have good, clean fun.

SPEAKER_04 28:21

People can't see this, but they all have spider webs on that coming. Yeah, yeah. Kelly's wearing a witch hat right now. I'm kidding. We're not doing anything for that.

SPEAKER_02 28:35

Um, maybe we should move into our topic segment. The segment that is our topic. Um, today we're gonna talk a little bit about values.

SPEAKER_01 28:47

Values.

SPEAKER_02 28:48

Yeah, I feel like we bring up values like here and there and probably don't give enough attention to like what it is or what we're even really saying there. So, like, where should we start?

SPEAKER_04 29:00

Where should we start? Well, at least from more of an acceptance and commitment therapy perspective, uh uh values is one of those points of that hexagonal model. Um like a pillar of yeah, the hexaflex model, which if we can engage more with our values, that's one part of us being more uh flexible depending on how we're engaging with our values, more psychologically flexible. Um and from an act perspective, you know, some of the things that how they define it would be like life directions, so like chosen life directions that give life meaning, or it's kind of your deepest heart's kind of desires, um, and the things that really give you a full, more full life and a larger life, yeah, um, as ways to move you know towards them, and and you move towards your values through things that are observable, like behaviors. And so I think a lot of the work there is to not only identify what your values are, what gets in the way of moving towards them, how we avoid them, and also how we can be more in line with them on a regular basis. I think it's also important to distinguish, you know, values and goals. Because that's an important part of the work too. Like goals can you can check goals off a list. We always say that. Like goals are something that can move you towards your values, and values are always something you can move towards. So yeah, they're like meaningful life directions for us.

SPEAKER_02 30:38

Yeah, totally. I once heard someone um, I forget where I heard this, but someone described them as like vital needs, meaning like the needs you have to live out to feel vital. Yeah, to feel whole.

SPEAKER_04 30:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:55

Or almost like I think of it sometimes to like honor your wholeness is to like live out authentically. I do think there's an authenticity piece.

SPEAKER_04 31:05

Oh, there's a huge authenticity piece. And I think encouraging people to think more about values as that word vitality, like you just said, like a vital life and meaningful versus a happy one. And that's you know, Russ Harris, who's an ACT practitioner, wrote that book, The Happiness Trap, where we get kind of programmed into this idea that we have to be happy all the time. And I think we really want to, at least myself, when working with people with values, is like no matter your mood state, you can have a meaningful experience. No matter how much you're struggling, you can have a meaningful experience. So sometimes I encourage people to think about values as, you know, at least at the end of the day, when you put your head on your pillow and you reflect on your day, was this a meaningful day? Yeah. Not was your day happy? Because those are two different things. You can have a really bad day, and it can still be a very meaningful experience if you were engaged more with your values.

SPEAKER_03 32:06

Totally.

SPEAKER_04 32:07

Um, and then the authenticity piece, a lot of times when people are struggling, I'll ask them, like, how do you want to show up to this moment? Yeah. Right now, right? Because this is the moment that you can access to create meaning and move towards something that's important to you. So, how do you want to show up in this moment, right? To this moment.

SPEAKER_02 32:27

Yeah. Um, so yeah, and like we'll talk more specifically about different values, but like you're saying, the difference between values and goals. One is concrete, one is abstract. And I think it can be such a wonderful aspect of values that they are abstract because it means they're in one way or another accessible in like every context. If you if you value respect, that's a big value of mine. There is really no context where you can't live that out. Respect for another, respect for self and both.

SPEAKER_04 33:03

Right.

SPEAKER_02 33:04

There, I mean, I dare you to find a space where that can't be lived out because it's not saying one specific thing, it's more of like an energy, a movement, like an ethos you're living by and living out. So yeah, I think it's like it's great to have the goal of like, like if you value intellectual growth. Like, yeah, you can set the goal of like going to grad school. Right. Or if you don't get into grad school, there are other options for living out that value. You always have options, and there isn't one way for it to go for you to be living out what's a vital need of yours.

SPEAKER_03 33:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:47

Which I love. I mean, I'm so biased toward values.

SPEAKER_04 33:50

Oh, I love values work with people. And I think that it can really be a grounding and anchoring thing for us to engage with when I mean any time in therapy, but certainly when people feel lost or that their symptoms are unmanageable, or, you know, as we're helping them with those symptoms, also, how are we going to continue to create meaning, even though your life is very chaotic right now or very distressing? And I think that can be really powerful because that can build much more resilience in people where they're not waiting for again the mood state, they're not waiting for everything to line up and say, well, I'm happy then I'm gonna create meaning in my life. It's like, no, this is something we can do right now, and that's not easy by any means. It's not easy for me.

unknown 34:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 34:40

Where it's like when my life's chaotic and really stressful, it can be hard to create any type of meaning from that. Um but I personally find values to be very centering for me. Like, and even asking myself that question how can I show up to this moment when I really want to not show up in an authentic way? Because it would just be easier.

SPEAKER_03 35:02

Right.

SPEAKER_04 35:02

And I was actually thinking of you and and Josh when you had mentioned this being the topic, because there was something I read a little while ago that was trying to explain, you know, for people, practitioners, but but mostly for the people we work with, like the idea, specifically in relationships of the difference between values and goals, like you value love and connection. Your goal is to get married, right? Like you get married, okay. You check that off the list. You got married.

SPEAKER_03 35:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:29

But what's meaningful in a marriage is the how you continue, at least from you know, that could be anybody's, but or you know, other things along with marriage, but it's about embodying like the love and connection, and how do you do that through behaviors? And that's what gives your marriage so much more vitality and meaning. It's not that you signed a legal document that says you're married. Yes, that is that was a meaningful experience in the journey, but it's like, how do you continue to foster that connection when things are really difficult? Right. And that can be a really meaningful experience.

SPEAKER_02 36:02

Well, that's a good, that's a great example to illustrate how really it's like goals are the platform for living out the value. Like the value is the essence. It's like, why even see? And I feel like I have this conversation with clients a lot that are in the dating space. Because I do work with a lot of people, like a little bit younger than me in or older than me in the dating space. And like, I'll I'll sometimes ask that question of like, why do you even want partnership to find a long-term partner? And a lot of people in today's day and age are a little bit like thrown off by that question. Like, what do you mean? Isn't it obvious? Like, that's what, but it I think it is worth like asking, even with obvious things, like what's the value you'd be living out?

SPEAKER_04 36:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:49

Because, like, is the partnership the thing, or is it really just this like beautiful kind of container to live out the value? And it's not the necessary container, but it is a good one.

SPEAKER_04 37:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:01

You know, like it can be a nice, like if you commit to your partner in marriage, there's almost just like a valued action there, which is like, I'm gonna be brave. I value courage, I value love, I value commitment, I value like resilience, like all these things. Respect, like you already mentioned, openness, right to another person's like otherness. And yeah, it's like it's this wonderful like platform for living out those values. It's not the only one. But yeah, it's like, and I I will often tell clients that are like in the dating space and like hammering away at trying to find a partner. It's like, let's just go to the value. Can you live out loving someone? You know, when you go to your nephew's birthday, yeah, can you like express your love there? Can you, and they like think I'm insane, but I really do believe and I get a little woo-woo where it's like when you're living the values, the things you want come to you. Yeah, and happiness being one. Happiness kind of happens to you when you're not seeking it.

SPEAKER_04 38:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:08

When you're living authentically, enthusiastically approaching your values, like going for it.

School Rules, Food Allergies, And Nostalgia

SPEAKER_04 38:14

It's well, and that's you know, I'm I know I'm sorry I'm cutting you off, but that's where the I think it gets really interesting uh for ourselves, but also the people we work with when if you do say, well, if you value love, can you do that at a nephew's birthday party or you know, because then it drills down more to what is it really that I value? Yes, I value love, but okay, how do you value love within your partner relationships? Or is that like what would that look like because then you're really drilling down more specifically and you're bringing in the context component of it. Yeah, because I do think people get a little bit, they almost put it into different boxes where it's like, well, yeah, that type of love is only for in this context or in this one. And it's like, well, maybe there are some that there's some overlap, and sure, maybe there are certain things, of course, in a partner relationship, but I think it makes people be more specific about what they're looking for and at the same time think about whether this is even something they want because a lot of times people are acting out values that maybe have been programmed or prescribed to them. And I think that's really important for people who are listening to know is like we don't prescribe values, like values are such an individual process. And that's another reason why I like working with people on their values and doing this type of work, because I'm not telling people what to do. It's it's they're your values, they're not mine. And so let's talk about the difficulties of living those out, which I have difficulties living out my values, and maybe some of ours are similar, but they're a very individualized process, which I think is exciting and yeah, it can be frustrating because people are do yeah, like we were talking earlier, people might want to be told a little bit or guided in a direction, and I kind of like the hands-offness of it of yeah, but this is really meaningful work that you have to come a little bit to the realization of what it is that you value. And I think a lot of people intuitively know it, it's just for some of the things that they value, they just have to come to it with a little guidance, maybe.

SPEAKER_02 40:23

Yeah, totally. Well, that's a good kind of like turn into like how does one decipher their values identify. Or we can even talk about like for ourselves or when we work with clients, like how do you start to identify your values? We were mentioning how like, and I think about this a lot, and I think it actually is a pretty it's kind of basic, but it's a pretty effective strategy where you kind of just like come up with a bunch of different possibilities for values. Yes. Like we're saying here, respect, responsibility. I mean, you could literally go through the alphabet and think of like, what are all the values to start with? A and just make a giant list. And as you scan the list, like what do you get a sense of resonance with when you look at it? Yeah, you know, and yeah, what feels kind of right to you. Yeah. Like some inner sort of like hell yeah to something. It can be that simple, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 41:23

Yeah, like an inventory, right? Like a values inventory, which you could easily Google values, and you'll get a billion hits of lists of just words. And I think sometimes that's the easiest way for people to start is just look at one of those lists, not to overwhelm more to give people the just language of what values are, yeah. And then kind of like checking off maybe 10 of them to work on or to just think about.

SPEAKER_02 41:52

Yeah. And some people and there's different people too, or they'll say, like, pick 10 and then it's like pick the top five from there, and then pick the top three from there. Yeah. To make it as simplified, you don't have to do that. But I've done different, like for myself, like different values. I mean, I've had periods of my life where I'm like doing stuff like this so much.

SPEAKER_04 42:11

Have you ever done the like retirement party one or the obituary one?

SPEAKER_02 42:17

Yeah, like what you want people to say at your funeral or in your obituary.

SPEAKER_04 42:20

I always thought the obituary one was a little bit morbid. Yeah, I think you really gotta be careful from my perspective with who you're working with on that and and know who you're working with, know your your client really well. I think it could be super effective to think about in that way. Sometimes I'll gear it more towards like your 80th birthday party.

SPEAKER_02 42:40

Totally.

SPEAKER_04 42:41

Or like a retirement party, but even that kind of puts them in the context of work. So I think the 80th birthday is where I've landed in the middle, where it's like all these people that the exercise is like all these people that you care about and that you love show up and surprise you, and yeah, they're at your 80th birthday party, and you're imagining this scene, and everybody is taking a turn getting up and describing you as a person. And it's kind of like imagining what would you want these people to say about how you lived your life, right? And that could be a way for us to be creative and getting into what would I want people to say about me and how I how I've lived and how I want to live my life, because it can make people not only reflect on, yeah, these are the things the way I've lived that I really resonate with. And then there are things where people would be like, God, I kind of want people to say I was like adventurous and I don't really take many chances. And so that right there could be a moment of like, ooh, yeah, maybe that's something we could. An adventure doesn't mean you have to be a world traveler, but how could we maybe get a sense of adventure in your life?

SPEAKER_02 43:48

Yeah, totally. I've done that exercise so much with clients, but I feel like have I done that myself where I think about that. Like I feel comfortable thinking about it as my funeral. Yes, especially because it's Halloween.

SPEAKER_04 44:00

I feel very comfortable thinking about your funeral. And what I'm saying. Oh spooky. Yeah, what I'm saying at Kelly's funeral.

SPEAKER_01 44:09

Yeah, what speech I'm giving.

SPEAKER_04 44:11

Um, no, we're just gonna play our greatest hits from the episodes over and over.

SPEAKER_00 44:16

I want people to say I'm really scary.

SPEAKER_02 44:19

She was extra spooky every Halloween.

SPEAKER_00 44:21

Sometimes she was a witch.

SPEAKER_02 44:24

I'm like, because I there was a time where like I would think of all these values, and it was helpful to have like 12 or 15 of them. And then sometimes I was like wanting to get down to the basics. Like, I remember there was a time where I kept telling myself, like, my values are respect, openness, and love. And I just felt that all the time. Like that feels really resonant. Now, also, like, I know I really value like expansion too. Whether that be like intellectual, spiritual, kind of kind of like spiritual growth is like something I that really lights me up. And also like can just connection, which like love is captured by ultimately. I remember when I did a kind of a more manifestation-based values exercise, like there was something coming up that was like sounds so dumb. But like it wasn't like comfort in the sense of like I need to be comfortable all the time. It was like almost like luxury. Like, I do like luxuries, yeah. And like, cause it was one of those exercises where they ask you, like, what websites do you visit a lot? Like it was tracking a little more of like your behavior and where do you like to spend your time? And I do like like making luxurious like recipes, and like there were a bunch of different ways in which I really did like would like move in that direction and feel vital. Yeah, not I didn't feel like it was so superficial, like it felt like authentic and yeah, because you know, to me, I'm like very like if I'm gonna have people over and make them a salad, like it's gonna be a really fucking good salad. Like that is there's like luxury there that I really but that also could be service, that could be love, you know, care. It could be so many things. But yeah, like that kept coming up, and it was like one I struggled with a little bit, but I also secretly knew was like true.

Turning To Values: ACT And Hexaflex

SPEAKER_04 46:28

So yeah, it's like they don't necessarily have to be so like perfectly shiny and like oh well, and I think at to that point, I've mentioned on the pod before being a little bit more rigid with certain things, like, and I do value order and predictability, and I think those are some things that I at times can come down on myself for or even shame myself for. Like, I should be much more flexible with this, or I should be much more open and just roll with the, you know, the flow. And and I think there are moments in my life where I try to embody that, and that those have been really meaningful experiences when I've really pushed myself to it. And at the same time, I do value because that can also be a vital experience for me when I because I I feel like I can sometimes be like my optimal self when I know that certain things are predictable. And so I am more present and I am more connected in those moments when I know that predictability. So it's like a it's a back and forth where it's not one thing or another. And I think with the idea of comfort and luxury, it's how how often are you going to the well? Like you're not spending your money crazy on all these luxurious things. It's like, yeah, like I think we can have those vital experiences of really comforting ourselves or or engaging with luxury in different ways. That wow, that was really a vital, like I really like zhuzhed it up, and and and that was like a really great dinner party I threw. And it was like, you're not doing that every night, right? Yeah, you're not doing it to excess or with every area. Yeah, yeah. Totally. So I think there's the the context is so important, and I think it is a good thing to think about maybe where our criticisms come up with some of our values, because we might then think we have to live other people's values. And that's with the flexibility thing. I find that that's still something I'm probably always going to be sorting out. Like, how much do I push myself? Yeah. And I can call on a lot of experiences where I was like, I wanted to be rigid, I pushed myself to be flexible, even though I really didn't want to. And it was, and it turned out great. And I and it like really gave me a data point to look at, and and that's something I can reflect on when I notice my rigidity coming out.

SPEAKER_03 48:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 48:47

And then there's sometimes where I need to listen to my wise mind or my intuition and be like, no, like yeah, it's okay to have order. It's okay to want to know what's coming down the tracks, you know, that type of thing.

SPEAKER_02 49:00

Totally. Well, that's such a good point. It's like that's why like values in wise mind, like it's almost like the values sit inside the wise mind. And you can tap into that, or you, you know, if you call the wise mind, you call it the self, tap into that part that it's like, is this a value alignment? Or is there I usually say with my clients, is there a fear sometimes? Because it's like even if a client says, like, well, I value being frugal, you know, and you'll notice like, and as a therapist, you know, you're holding so many dialectics with this, because it's like you have to honor and respect that perception and that sense, and also explore it, because the the person could even genuinely value frugality and be using it in a non-value aligned way, meaning, like if you let go here a little bit and spent, is there a fear of what would happen? Is it not simply kind of a preference and a personality? Yeah, because usually there's less like heat to it if it's a value. There's more of like a quiet sense of rightness with a value, and it's a little bit more intense and emotional when it's a fear. And then you can often say, like, you know, I I would maybe say to a client, like, you know, if you let go and you spent a little on your son's lacrosse gear or something, something that demands lacrosse gear. Yeah, you know, like what are you afraid would happen? And then they might say, I'm afraid it'll never end, and I'll spend so much that I'll be broke or whatever. Right. And then you might have to go and help them reprocess a time where they were financially insecure. And then you can come back to the value and notice, like, even though you value frugality, what is your wise am I telling you here? Yeah. And often it'll say, like, here's a place to let go. Yeah. Here's a place, whatever. Yeah. Or it's like, I value this comes up, Josh and I were talking about this with like religion and stuff. I value self-sacrifice. Even that, you can notice, like, could that be someone else's value? Like a religious institution or a parent or whatever. Think about this a little bit with the Catholicism. And it's like, if you weren't self-sacrificing, is there a fear?

SPEAKER_04 51:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:21

You know, I'll go to hell. Or, you know, I won't give to others or care about them. And you can ask, like, is it is it possible to care about others and care about self? Could that be even like opening the perspective? It only, it only like clarifies values to do some of that, to to sometimes question them a bit. Yeah. And that takes a lot of like therapist intuition too.

SPEAKER_04 51:44

Well, and the values are they, you know, we talk a lot about expansion here, right? On the podcast.

SPEAKER_03 51:49

And yeah.

SPEAKER_04 51:51

Is the frugality opening you up and making your life larger?

SPEAKER_03 51:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 51:56

Or is it closing you off more? And I'm not saying it's one or the other. I think that's a question to explore is are these values that we move towards really opening us up, making our lives more full?

SPEAKER_02 52:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 52:12

Larger lives that we're living.

SPEAKER_02 52:14

Yeah. Um yeah, what do you notice?

SPEAKER_04 52:18

And again, that's following what our clients are saying, and maybe gently challenging them here or there, but really honoring that. You know, we want them to be honest about that. Like, no, maybe my frugality is kind of closing me off. It's making my life feel safe and contained because a lot of that stuff you can hide, you know, or you can use certain values to maybe uh like try to control or escape certain things in your life, right? We talk about those control or escape moves. So the frugality is really like, I'm really anxious about, yeah, if I spend too much, I'm just gonna indulge and yeah, you know, or um if I spend money, right? Like what are people gonna expect of me? And I'm not gonna hold the boundary. I'm fearful that I won't be able to say no, right? So it's it's kind of navigating that space with people. And um would it be a meaningful experience to maybe spend a little here and hold a boundary? Like, what would that be? You know, hard, difficult, absolutely distressing, anxiety provoking. And if you came out on the other side of that, yeah, you know, that's the where it's like sometimes we just have to a lot of times we just have to go through these things and kind of take that leap of faith or like you said, commit to our values without really knowing the outcome in order to have that um you know, to have that experience. It you know, there's that saying that, and I think it goes with a lot of just because you've mentioned free reality, like money in general. I think it applies to any type of values work that we do with people, but you know, some people know the price or the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

SPEAKER_03 53:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 53:52

And I think that a lot of times people don't move towards the values because there's a cost to it. Yes, it's hard, it's anxiety, there's fear. Yeah, that's the price I have to pay to move towards this value. And people are very quick to label all of those price and costs, and so they don't move towards it because it's like it's gonna cost me too much. Yeah, right, metaphorically. And and they're not, we have to like almost help them see, but there's the we have to see the value in this, yeah, right, versus just the cost. Yes, there are gonna be costs associated with getting married. Like you're gonna have fights, you're gonna not get along, right? Yeah, like we can't even predict the future of how long your marriage will last. There might be illness, there might be right, like right. Well, you know, and does that mean you're not gonna connect and get married, right? Like the there, what's the value here? Like we we can see all the costs and possible pain that's associated with it, but yeah, what's the value there?

SPEAKER_02 54:49

And you know, it's like that's such a good point that, like, yeah, when I think about costs of something like marriage, it's like we Josh and I have talked about this, like it costs you your freedom and it costs you like a simplicity. Yeah, it's not like easy to be single. I definitely don't think that. But it's like freedom, you have such a different relationship to, and like finding it is so much more complex in in a long-term marriage. And like you it you there's a cost of like getting validation from different people, you know, like that you're desirable or that you're whatever, like you give that stuff up. And you even like you kind of like cost yourself the fantasy that you're gonna meet the perfect partner. When you finally pick a partner and they're a real person, you really have to release that fantasy that like one day someone will rescue me from all my problems. I I feel like you you and I have talked about that because I think I I didn't even realize sometimes I had that in mind of like, and that always has to do with me feeling like if someone else doesn't rescue me, I'm doomed. Meaning, like a lack of trust in myself. You know, if someone doesn't rescue me from my financial situation, if someone doesn't rescue me from my struggles with my family of origin or like where I live, like anything, you know, my loneliness. Yeah, it's like there's a cost. And this comes up with like career too. Yeah. Like when you finally like choose a career path. I remember thinking there was a lot of loss, like post-college, where you're like, oh, I guess I'm shutting all those other doors now. Yeah. I can't just say, like, well, maybe I'll do this, or maybe and you really you can to an extent, you learn later, but there's nothing like that fresh off the boat of college time. But but there is so much, and you're saying this, like richness in like spending that costing yourself that. Like that's living. The funny thing is, it's like the struggle is the living.

SPEAKER_04 57:01

Right. It's the going through it that is the meaning.

SPEAKER_02 57:05

Totally.

SPEAKER_04 57:06

And the vitality, right? The vital life.

Values vs Goals And Everyday Meaning

SPEAKER_02 57:09

Yeah. Totally. Like, even in all the like little man different types of like manifestation things I've done. So many of the people who like guide this or like you know, help teach manifestation, they will say, like, the manifestations themselves are like irrelevant. What you learn is like when you connect to yourself and like embody the energy of the life you want. You get it, but then you really just like yourself. And that's the real thing.

SPEAKER_04 57:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:42

Your self, your true self is revealed, the wise mind is revealed, like you're living as your most core self. Yeah. And there's nothing richer than that. It's true. It's like that sounds like cheesy, but it's true.

SPEAKER_04 57:53

Yeah. And it's it's also like a thought exercise sometimes to do with people that idea of like process and outcome when it comes to values, where sometimes we'll kind of give a scenario where it's like, well, if I could put you almost like at the end of something and and you'd be done with it, if I could snap my finger and just like put you through that, would you be okay with it? Right. So let's say I think you brought up grad school. Like, if I could just snap my finger and you you graduated with your degree, yeah, you know, would you want to do that? And it's tempting to be like, yeah, I wouldn't have to put, depending on your degree, years and years and financial hardship on myself.

SPEAKER_03 58:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 58:36

If it's truly meaningful experience and a valuable experience, a lot of people will hesitate though and say, Yeah, that that sounds nice. And I kind of want to go to the classes. I kind of want to be reading the material as hard as that could be. And I think that can be, or it could be even something very like shorter in duration. Like if I could just, you know, you and your partner, if we're talking about Mary, you and your partner are gonna have this huge blowout fight, and I just like put you to the end of it where you're making up. Like it's like, yeah, that's really tempting.

SPEAKER_03 59:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 59:08

And it's like, would you be missing out on maybe learning something about your partner or learning something about yourself as bad as that fight is, right? And so kind of that idea of like questioning if everything is just the finish line oriented and just getting to it, we're really missing out on a lot of growth and even just resilience and ability to cope with things and sit with things. And it doesn't even have to be those large things. Sometimes I'll even question people like with their enjoyment, you know, where uh, well, we'll bring in Josh here, you know. Josh, our audio file. If a new album came out and I and I I walked in here and the first song on that album was playing, and I just stopped it and I said, Josh, I'll tell you all about the album. I already listened to it. So I'll just tell you about every song and how it ends. Like you'd probably be really disappointed. Yeah. Because the meaningful experience for you is I want to listen to the entire album by myself, right? I don't want like this summary or these cliff notes about this album, or you know, same thing with the book. Like, oh, I read that book, Kelly. Just hand it over. You're on chapter one. Let me tell you the ending.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:22

And it's like someone make you know what happens.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:26

Yeah, make you know what happens. It's like, well, no, I want to like read a page over and over. And because I've been ruminating, it's like, ugh, I gotta come back to that. Like, I there's an arduous processor, and I want to know the characters and yeah, with them. Yeah. Yeah. So there's a lot of these like different ways, these thought exercises about yes, the outcome or the thing at the end might be meaningful. I could say I listened to that album, and it's like, yes, I can catalog it. I did it. It's another one in the books. I listened to an album. Yeah. And it's like the meaning is like listening to it and really engaging with it. Yeah. You know, that's that's even if we hate it. Yeah. Totally. It doesn't, values are not all about like what we like. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:06

And you're getting at the fact that sometimes the goal, sometimes goals almost like if we're too focused on them, they actually like erode the essence of the thing.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:20

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:20

Like if you're just focused on like getting your PhD and getting those letters after your name, like what's the fucking point of a PhD? It's to, it's to acquire all that learning. Be with those Shakespeare texts or whatever.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:35

Learn, grow intellectually, have that experience. And yeah, so often we can really like, I mean, I'm totally guilty of this, like wanting something to be over. I even do this like in a regular week where it's just like, gotta get to the end. Yeah. Gotta get all these sessions done. Totally. And it's like when I really think about that, I'm like, oh, that is not vital living. And I can feel it.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:01

You know, it's like be here. Yeah. And when I can remind myself that in a given moment, I'm like, I I instantly feel like enriched and more alive.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:11

Oh, yes, 100%. And I think Sarah was really instrumental in so many ways with early parenting for me. Because I think I was like, put my head down, I just got to get through this phase. Yeah. Sleep regression, this and that. Like, and I think she was instrumental in bringing me back to there's always gonna be stuff at every phase. And so I don't want this to be like, we just gotta get to the next phase. Yeah. It's like, let's try to really be in this as hard as it is, and and it's still gonna suck. Yeah. It's just can we just know that this is gonna end at some point? And there's really rich stuff here that can come from this. And and that was like so huge in shifting me, not that it happened like overnight, but continually, like you're saying, bringing myself back to, you know what, they're not gonna be, you know, Shane's turning eight, he's not gonna be eight forever.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:05

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:06

Right? It's like there are things that are really difficult about an eight-year-old, and at the same time, there's so many great things about an eight-year-old, right? Like you can't even count the number of things. And so it's when I get into the oh, some of those like, I just wish they were older, or I wish they could have a hold a conversation more, or I wish they could just understand like what if they did their homework now, they would have more time in the, you know, and it's like I gotta get out of that sometimes and and pull myself out of that so outcome focused and like the the finish line, and it's like bring yourself back. And I do think that is a really rich thing that I've experienced a lot, specifically with parenting, but with so many different things.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:46

Yeah, oh, definitely. I I okay, okay, of course, I heard this on a podcast. Love a podcast, everything.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:54

Um, there we should record one sometime.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:57

I know.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:58

We talk about podcasts all the time.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:00

Um, someone was saying, like a mantra that they'll say to themselves each morning, like when they remember to is today is a day of my life.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:09

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:10

I loved that when I heard it. Like, wow, reminding yourself, like, it's not just Tuesday to get through to the weekend. Cause that's where I fall into where it's like get through. It's like today is a day of my day as much as any other day.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:25

And like really notice that.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:28

I love that. I I want to remember to kind of tell myself that in the morning because it's so that's powerful.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:33

Powerful.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:34

Yeah. Totally.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:36

Yeah. It's like this isn't just like a run of the mill.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:40

Or even like you're saying, like, oh God, it's this day. I just wish it was that day. Right. It's like, no, this is a day.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:45

This is a day. This is like real experience. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:49

How are you going to show up here?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:50

Yeah. And you know, it's funny. Like, I'm also the person who it's like, I totally live out how stupid that is because sometimes I'll get to Friday and I'll get past clients, and I'll almost feel like bored. I'll get to like the Valhalla of my mind Friday afternoon. You're like, I'm like finally here. God, I could like sit back, have a snack, watch a show. And I'm like, these shows are kind of boring. I don't really, and it's like, you get a lot out of your work.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:19

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:20

Like there is a richness there that you're like not paying attention to. Cause I like, I'm, I mean, we're I think we're lucky. I feel lucky that I do work that feels meaningful almost every single second.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:32

100%. I think you and I have always mentioned that that we're very privileged to really enjoy what we do. Yeah. And I dare I say love what we do.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:42

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:43

And you have this too, Josh. We were talking about this.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:46

Yeah, I love work.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:47

I love Kelly. I love work. You're also like you enjoy working hard.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:51

I I'm in my element. Yeah. Yeah. I'll be editing, just bouncing around, big smile on.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:58

You enjoy working more than any other person I've ever met. Like toiling.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:02

Toiling, sure. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:04

Yeah, but you also love your craft.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love the mechanics. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:11

Yeah. It's nice. I mean, it is like a privilege. And then yet I'm still doing that sometimes where I'm like, I get so that we can.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:18

Well, you're human. Yeah. Totally. I think that's the it's imperfect no matter where we are in our lives. Yeah. Or doing our own self-work. It's we're human.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:29

Definitely.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:30

Totally. Totally. So we're very pro-values. If you're interested in this, like Google values inventory.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:37

I think it's a great place to start. Again, to build the language. Just and I think from there, how are you, if you want to take it a step further, like how are you engaging in those words that you choose? So if if it is respect, well, how does that show up in like a behavior for you on a day-to-day, right? Or even with respect, uh put it into a different context. I'm gonna think about self-respect. How am I engaging in behaviors that show respect for self?

SPEAKER_03 1:07:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:06

Because maybe that's something that's more difficult than others, you know, how I show that I know how I show up for others. I don't really know what that means for me. So that those are all, you know, thinking about self, thinking about others, but also observable behaviors that we can engage in.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:21

Yeah. Yeah. And almost even to bring in some of the stuff we talked about with Albert Bramante, yeah. You could even look at your week. It let's say self-respect was the value de jour. You could imagine some like meeting you have or some dentist appointment or whatever, and like actually rehearse in your mind what it would look like to show up self-respecting. Yeah. Like what would your posture be like? What might you say or not say that's embodying self-respect? Like, embody it. Think of those actions. Like, don't be afraid to like kind of like play the tape a little bit and see if you can get into your bones and then do it.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:02

Yeah. And if the values inventory feels dry, I do suggest the 80-year-old birthday parties. Think about the people you care about. They're there and they're speaking about you. Yeah. How you lived, your life overall, and that can clue you in too sometimes. Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:22

Well, yeah, like sometimes we think of this where it's like she was always cozy on the couch, you know, and it's like no one wants that.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:30

Always luxurious on the couch.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:32

Luxuriating.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:33

Luxuriating. Is that a word? Luxuriating? Yeah. That is.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:37

Yeah, luxuriating.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:39

It's a great word. It is a great word. It is. You also used frugal, which I always thought was just a funny word.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:44

Yeah, it is a funny word. I think it's like a polite word for someone being cheap.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:49

For sure it is. It's just funny the way it sounds. Yeah. Frugal.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:54

It sounds like for some reason I always think of like yogurt or something. I don't know, like frugal. Or I don't know. It's it is a funny word. It's a funny one.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:04

It's like Fraggle Rock. I love Fraggrock. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:07

I used to have a cassette tape of the soundtrack of Fraggle Rock.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:10

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:11

And I used to listen to it all.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:12

Yeah, they have like a YouTube video of like them all dancing at the intro.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:16

I gotta watch it.

Finding Your Values: Inventories And Exercises

SPEAKER_02 1:09:17

I for years couldn't think of the title of that, and I'm like, what was that show?

SPEAKER_04 1:09:21

Down in Fraggle Rock.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:23

They like lived under like the fourth floor.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:25

Yeah. What were they? I don't know. Some sort of creature.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:30

Yeah, right in if you know what they were.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:32

Because there were huge human type characters who looked odd.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:38

Oh my god, I'm definitely gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:39

That was definitely a Jim Henson creation, correct? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:43

And it was a little like prototype because I feel like it was like almost like scarier, too.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:48

It definitely was weird. Or it was scary and like um it looked dirty to me a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:55

Yes, yeah. Like it was a little grimy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:59

Maybe it was the CD underbelly of the Muppets.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:02

Yeah. Like there was I think so.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:04

There was Sesame Street, and then this was what lived under Sesame Street was the Fraggles. Yeah. The Fraggle ride.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:09

I remember like that's funny that you say that too, because I remember some part of me watching it was like kind of magnetized to it, and another part a little like disgusting. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's kind of gross. Some character. I'm even getting like little vibes of like their eyes were big. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:26

And I'm like, yeah, yeah. Fraggles.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:28

Totally. Which is fun.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:30

And well, bring it back to scary.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:32

Spooky scary.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:35

You know, there's one called Wembley.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:38

Wembley. Like Wembley Stadium. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:41

Josh out of nowhere. I was we were referring to someone going to the Oasis concert.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:48

Oh, they're still having those?

SPEAKER_02 1:10:49

No, I think that's over now. But I was like, I think they went to that Oasis show at Wembley Stadium. And Josh out, he doesn't usually do this out of nowhere. He goes, oh, at Wembley Stadium. Like you were so annoyed with that word. Like it was so pretentious. I like burst out laughing. That's great. I love to make fun of something pretentious, but like you're usually pretty nice about that.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:11

I'm usually pretentious.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:12

And just the way you were like, Wembley. Oh, they went to Wembley.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:16

That's right. It's like pinky's up. I'm going to see Oasis and Wembley.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:19

But now we need to now apparently we need to make a distinction because there's a character named Wembley.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:25

Oh yeah, they look pretty fucking pretentious. Wait, let me see.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:27

These fragles.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:28

Wait, let me look up Wembley specifically. Some of them are creepy. There's like old grandma trolls.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:33

I'm telling you. Yeah, trolls, moles, and trolls and moles and trolls and voles. And voles. It was a creepy show.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:40

Uh it was creepy. Oh yeah, Wembley looks like a little Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:44

Oh, it's on Apple TV. You know it was a creepy kid show.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:49

What?

SPEAKER_04 1:11:49

Did you ever watch Zubely Zoo?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:52

No.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:53

Man.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:54

Creepy?

SPEAKER_04 1:11:55

It was just act live actors. But they were um you know, face painted and made into like animals. They were like half human, half animal. Zubely zoo, yeah. Zubuly zoo. I believe Ben Vereen was on it.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:12

Um I can't seem to find this.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:14

Zubely Zoo.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:15

How do you spell it?

SPEAKER_04 1:12:17

Uh Z-O-O-Bully. Z-O-O. I don't know. It was a PBS show.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:25

Oh my god, I remember this. Wait, let me see.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:28

And it was very I just found the characters to be extremely intense actors. And anyway.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:37

Yeah, this whoa. This is bringing back memories of horror. Perfect.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:43

Perfect. Halloween episode. Bring up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:47

I wish we could show pictures on that.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:49

Bring up your child. Okay, top five childhood creepouts. Zooblizoo, one of them. Labyrinth, the movie, also creeped me out heavily as a child.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:58

Oh, yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:59

David Bowie. Even the never-ending story. Did you ever see that?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:04

Yes. Like those like dogs.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:07

Well, the horse dies, and if the kid's horse like drowns in mud or something.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:13

Why was that disturbing?

SPEAKER_04 1:13:15

That was really disturbing to me.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:17

There's so many, like from our era, there's so many disturbing kids stuff. I wonder if that's like a bygone.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:24

That was horrifying. I was also very scared of Skeletor in the live action He-Man movie.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:30

Oh that like terror.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:32

I think that was like the first opening scene. They show Skeletor and I like ran to my room.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:36

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:37

Like crying.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:38

God, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:39

It's like just terror, absolutely terrified. Um, anyway, these live actors dressing as zoo animals. Look it up. Zoobly Zoo.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:47

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:48

Well, maybe this is a good one into our creepy haw-wise is it?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:52

Creepy howwise is it.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:54

Let's do it.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:54

Which were we gonna say, how-wise is it to scare yourself?

SPEAKER_04 1:13:57

How-wise is it to try to scare yourself?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:59

Yeah, kind of to indulge in these like spooky, scary things.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:03

So there's a lot of traditions like the haunted house to try to scare yourself.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:07

Well, yeah, maybe we should even isolate it there. How ways is it to go to a haunted house?

SPEAKER_04 1:14:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:12

Because like I the right when you said that, I got a little like squeeze of fear.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:17

Because I actually find those pretty scary, depending. I mean, you can go to one where they're just like woo-woo and like there's nothing.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:25

They just literally like grab you. They grab you, they jump on. There's a famous that this is like my family, the the butts family lore that I must have been maybe six years old, maybe seven years old, and my parents took me and my brother to a haunted house, not thinking it was gonna be that scary. And apparently, like the first whatever, the first scare, maybe not even the first scare. I'm already like on my mom, like a koala bear, like hugging her and digging my nails in and just saying, get me out of here. Get me out of here. Like it was a complete debacle. So they had to like run through everything. And they said, even the staff that are like dressed up are like, Yeah, show this kid the exit, like he needs to get out of here. So totally, um, yeah. I think haunted houses can be really creepy and scary, and just I feel like the gore level of things is real extreme now. Even commercials for horror movies that are on like prime time are really creepy. Creepy. Like my kids will be like, Yeah, and it's like, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:29

Yeah, commercial can give you like nightmares.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:31

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:33

So so there could be haunted houses or just even watching scary movies.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:37

Well, yeah, we watched hereditary and I definitely didn't sleep well or meditate well for a couple of days. Yes. Watching Tony Collette banging her head on that attic door.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:48

Yeah. Scary. I like this is gonna sound this isn't well thought out. I do like feeling fear sometimes. Yeah, there is something about that. It's like exciting. It is, yeah. But this is gonna sound ridiculous too. I feel like it has to be very contained for me.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:10

Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:12

It's almost like a it has to be a very safe fear. Yeah. Which I don't even know what that means. I don't even know what that means, but it has to be kind of safe.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:21

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:22

So I think it for me, it's wise in a container. Yeah, I don't know what that containers.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:27

Well, it's like if I went in a haunted house and there was like ground rules, like they were like, nobody can touch you.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:32

Yeah. There's gotta be ground rules like that, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:16:35

At certain ones. Well, I think there's some that have them and some that are like no, because that'll make it less scary.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:42

Some are like signing the waiver. If you have a heart condition, don't go in here.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:45

Yeah, just go don't go in here. Yeah. Or like we used to go. Um, my friend's dad like worked at some company where they would get to go to the Freight Fest. Yeah, like before everybody else at the Six Flags. So I'm only saying that because we would go every year for that reason, which like I don't think I would have bothered to go every year, but it was like we got, I think we got to go for free, maybe. And they can kind of touch you, I think.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:10

Interesting.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:11

There's like scary people running around the park. Obviously, the rides are like decorated and stuff, which is very fun. But I remember being scared.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:18

And I remember my friend's mom even getting scared by a guy, there being like a headless horseman running around, like definitely was a little scared. It was fun, but yeah, like I like you.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:32

I went to a haunted, like forest preserved thing too young, and just the second I stepped into the outdoor ones are there's something different about the outdoor ones that almost feel more real.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:45

Yeah, like you're in the woods, you're in the woods.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:48

You know, what's a way that I did for a while scare myself, yeah, and I kind of liked it was looking in the mirror. No, um when I haven't shaved. No, the um there was, and you are so much more ahead in terms of podcasts and things like that, but there was one podcast somebody, and I don't know what made me listen to it, but somebody mentioned it, and I was like, oh, maybe I'll give that a try. And I listened to the first episode, and I was like, wow, that really like creep kind of creeped me out. And then it became almost like a ritual at night where I would turn the lights off in my bedroom and like just have my earbuds in and listen to it. Like it wasn't serious, it was no, it wasn't, but that does have a creepy element to it. It was true though, it's up and vanished.

unknown 1:18:40

I haven't heard it.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:41

It's basically a true life podcast about people that kind of vanish without a trace.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:46

Whoa.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:46

And the first season, it's a it's a kind of a lot of episodes, but just the music and some of the voices in it that read, you know, certain written words like letters and stuff like that. Like it I was sitting, I just remember like almost looking forward to it at night being in the dark listening to this, and also just kind of really interested in what happened to this person because they literally kind of up and vanished, and there there really was no trace. But um well, you know what's funny. So that was an interesting way that I was like scaring myself.

Personal Values, Flexibility, And Context

SPEAKER_02 1:19:16

As you say that, like we you and I have said this where it's like watching something scary, and maybe it has to do with part of it being that it's usually in the fall, but it's like there's something cozy about watching something scary, yeah. Cause I guess because you're like safe in your body and self if you're just listening to it. So there's something, there's almost like a reversal, like a paradoxical reaction you can have to it. Well, yeah. Did you were you gonna say? No, I mean, I was just gonna repeat what you said. I this is like sort of related, but maybe dean general. Like I sort of have a theory. Like, I I love to get on my like high horse of like philosophical theories with like whatever, like movies, horror. And I was saying to Josh, I was like, sometimes I think like horror, like the fear that people have, like whether it's like the fear of a character in the movie or like the fear someone has of like even going to bed in their own big house and like going to the bathroom in the middle of the night and being behind the shower curtain. Like people, like ostensibly on the surface, are like so afraid of there being someone behind the curtain. Oh, yeah. But maybe the real fear is that there's no one there.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:32

Meaning, like I think I know what you mean.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:35

You know what I mean? That like we're alone.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:38

So it's almost like we're afraid of it, slash, like we almost want it. I'll notice this when I meet people that are.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:44

You almost want Norman Bates.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:45

Totally. Like he represents like I matter, I matter so much, someone's out to get me. Wow. You know, like I find this with people that are like always scared all the time of everything, to the point where I'm almost like it almost feels narcissistic. You know, where you're like, you're not that special. Like, you know, that person's probably not gonna attack you for the simple reason of like other things to do. Yeah, but it's like I do sometimes find that where I'm like, maybe that the bigger fear is the emptiness. Yeah. For all of us, even as a culture, or like godlessness or something, I don't know. But I always have that thought with the shower curtain. I'm like, oh, do we do we fear someone being behind there or want someone behind there?

SPEAKER_04 1:21:30

Man, there have been different iterations in my life checking behind that shower curtain.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:34

Totally.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:34

Certain movies that really gets me.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:38

Where it's like, yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:39

Yeah. My brother used to have that psycho shower curtain where it was like blood all over it.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:43

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_02 1:21:44

It was like you could buy the one from the movie.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:46

For sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:47

It was crazy. And why and his med school friends had it.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:49

Oh great.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:50

I was like, oh my god, this is like we're cutting people open all the time. Yeah, we're looking at blood 24-7. Yeah. So yeah, like, well, what do we think? Is it wise?

SPEAKER_04 1:22:00

I think it I for me, I'm just speaking from my own experience. I think I think it's important to access fear as an emotion. Yeah, totally. But I feel so ridiculous saying it because I want it to be on my terms.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:22

And so whether that's listening to a podcast that I can immediately shut off. And like I don't want it to be too real.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:30

Which but I want I think it's an important emotion to feel. Yeah. To let yourself feel to let yourself feel. And I think it's it can be exhilarating to feel it. And so I I don't crave it like some people like really want to be, you know, scared, and and um, but I think there is something exhilarating about feeling that or jumping or you know, from something very I don't know. I yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think it it is for me in a in a certain way. I just don't know. I can't really describe it, but yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:04

Well, what do you think, Josh? You love horror. Whoa!

SPEAKER_04 1:23:09

You've been there the whole time?

SPEAKER_02 1:23:10

I was I was burping in the middle of that, but scared me.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:14

Did I ruin your burp? I thought maybe I'd just get a good jump scare in there. It was good because there's not a lot of good podcast jump scares.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:21

No, no, probably not.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:22

Wow, I I didn't know if that was gonna work.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:24

It did.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:25

It was good because I was like, I was kind of trying to do it right on the cusp of when you were looking at it. You're paying too much attention.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:31

Oddly blending in with the tapestry behind you because you're wearing a blue shirt. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:36

So it almost looked like I came out of the tapestry. A little bit, and behind the the flowers over there. So you think at my obituary, people are gonna be like, he was so scary.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:45

He was a pretty scary guy.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:46

He was the king of scare. Yeah, he was a scary dad. Yeah. Um better than creepy dad, I guess. Well, I don't know, either way. Um, creepy zaddy. I think well, like, I think the key is in the threshold, the whole threshold, the container. Like, because I don't know. I like I love horror, I love haunted houses, I love a good rolly coaster. I think but I don't really ever want to feel unsafe. Yeah. I think it's okay if it's contained within the container of like I'm ultimately safe.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:24

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:24

And I can be like pretty fucking scared, like like really startled.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:29

Or like where my like pulse is really racing, and like you're like waiting in line for the roller coaster, like, oh god, I'm like starting to get scared, or like even like I'm about to walk down the aisle at my wedding and like do vows, and it's like, oh my god, I'm scared. But then, like, you know, that was probably one of the most exhilarating moments of my life. So I do think fear can really make you feel alive. Yeah, I love horror for that reason because it can make me feel so invigorated, but yeah. Then if you don't feel safe. But I guess you could have a near-death experience, and it could be a really meaningful thing. Oh, yeah. Like potentially they are told you the story about when I um it was like on Passover night in Los Angeles, and uh I was leaving my my um sister's ex-boyfriend's apartment. Shout out Daniel Cooper and Adam Cooper, the twins. She was only dating one. Um I was over their house for Passover.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:29

That's the scariest part.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:32

And I got into my car, it was parallel parked on like a main road by their apartment. And I was like, you know, getting ready to go, probably like choosing my music. And all of a sudden, this car like blasts by. I'm in the driver's seat, it smashes into the front left of my car. So like just like a few, like another foot, and I just would have been like fucking silly putty. Yeah. And I'm not exaggerating.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:01

Oh my god, you didn't tell me that. I feel like I told you this a long time. You told me this, but I didn't realize it was like a near dad.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:07

I'm just like telling the story really well now.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:10

It not here's how close it was. It knocked off my left front tire and it went like flying like down the street.

unknown 1:26:18

Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:22

Um I literally had like no, like I didn't even have like a neck ache. Yeah, not a scratch. But I was like sitting there like shaking.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:31

You weren't passed over.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:33

I wasn't passed over. No, firstborn son. Yeah, firstborn son. Yeah, well, it was because I smeared blood on my uh undergarments. But then um plate. I I remember that the plagues. I feel like it really left me with this long-lasting feeling of like, oh my god, I'm alive. Right. And I felt like electrified for a while after that. Sure. And or you were passed over. Sorry, I have to correct myself. I was passed over. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:02

You felt electrified after that happened.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:05

Well, it's interesting because I don't even know if I ever felt unsafe. Like, I think by the time I had processed what had happened, it was over. And I was like pretty sure I was alive.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:17

Was it like a drunk driver?

SPEAKER_00 1:27:19

She seemed drunk. We were like both, because there was this like long phase where the cops were kind of getting all the info, and like she really didn't want to make eye contact with me. I think she was like pretty embarrassed or drunk. I don't know. Embarrassed that she almost killed you. Sure. I I mean I would have been like on the flip side of that, I don't know if I would have been like, oh hell yeah. I almost killed this Jew. But anyway, I so yeah, it's interesting. I guess, like, I guess even in that circumstance. Yeah, it can be thrilling. I don't know. I like fear. I like fear. I really like fear, man.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:02

I like fear.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:03

I think it gets me going. I like fear, I like horror, it's my favorite genre. I haven't been to the haunted house down the street. I keep wanting one night. I might just go over by myself to this haunted house on the street. I'll agree with you. I will.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:15

We went to one haunted house one time together. Well, you better go soon. I mean, Halloween's on Friday.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:20

I know, we really should. Maybe Thursday.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:22

Go for it. Do you actually want to?

SPEAKER_02 1:28:24

No, but I'll go for you. I don't even really, it's like I'm lazy. Well, it's a children's school. If you go alone, the optics aren't great.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:31

It might this also might be a meaningful experience. Value alignment here. Because Kelly might value other things other than the haunted house.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:39

True.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:40

Connect.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:40

But I value- yeah, exactly. I value supporting my husband.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:43

But I don't even want to go that bad. But if you were to tell me, like, oh, we're going to like the scariest house in the US, and like even if it's like proven to be safe, like it's not if it's like, oh, maybe you're gonna die, it's like I don't, I don't think that's wise. I I'd prefer to live. But like, like it's safe. It's like it's it's just like really scary and immersive. Like, I'd be like scared all day, probably. Yeah, yeah. But maybe like kind of excited. I haven't been to a haunted house in a long time.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:14

Scary's house is gonna be like one long like dental appointment or something. Like, you know.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:20

Just yeah. Because I feel like scary.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:22

I always thought the hospital parts of the haunted houses were creepy. Oh, totally. Because they always have the strobe light. Totally. Strobe light.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:30

That is a creepy yeah. Hospitals that are like deserted, old, run down.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:37

Scary. And then it's like jagged lighting, and then there's like figure in the back like coming towards you, and like every like flash, they're like a little closer and moving in these weird, unpredictable.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:47

Is there a horror movie that came out that was based on the site in the um of like Chernobyl? Wasn't there like a

SPEAKER_00 1:30:00

Probably.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:00

There was a show.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:01

I feel like that really that I that whole idea, I didn't watch that movie, but that whole idea just kind of creeped me out. Like a real place that's like deserted because of like nuclear fallout. Right. And then people are like trapped there or something. Or like bodies. Or bodies. Yeah, like that. Zombies. Yeah, that that that element of reality really is kind of creepy to me.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:21

Oh, yeah. Very scary. Yeah, I find those creepy like when there's a little bit of reality.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:24

There's a little bit of you could buy it just even if it's a real place. Like you're like, whoa, this is scary.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:31

There's almost like I I mean I I do think in hereditary, there's almost a little reality because it's like at some level, it's like a woman kind of losing her mind in grief.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:42

Yeah. That's part of it. Did you ever see that movie Hush?

SPEAKER_00 1:30:45

No. Dummy? What? Dummy comes to life and triloquist dummy.

Costs, Commitment, And Real-Life Tradeoffs

SPEAKER_04 1:30:50

No. Whoa, maybe I'm thinking of the wrong thing then. I thought there is um she is, you know, kind of like a scream idea. She's in a secluded home, but she's deaf. And she can't hear, and there's somebody who knows that she's alone in the house, and so she can't hear. And the person, she like gets a text or something on her phone, and it's like a picture of him in like the window of the of the background, and she's in this house, but she can't hear anything.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:20

And I'm scary, scary, scary, scary, scary, scary.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:24

Should we watch Hush? I feel like it was called Hush, but maybe Oh my god. That's not true.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:28

I'm like scary even I'm scared even thinking about it.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:30

Oh man, we've really gone Halloween here. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:33

Well, okay, so we think it's wise, depending on just the degree.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:38

The degree, the safety.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:41

Well, is masochism ever wise? If you really like it. It's like, let's get back to our middle conversation. It's like, know your values. Know your values. Yeah. Is what you're doing just making you like miserable?

SPEAKER_03 1:31:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:00

Are you doing it for the story? Are you doing it because your dad told you if you don't go on the roller coaster, you're gonna be a P-U-S-S-Y.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:10

And then you go and then you end up loving roller coasters. What's value aligned about that?

SPEAKER_01 1:32:15

That's a complicated narrative.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:19

A lot of ins, a lot outs there. Like a haunted house. Usually, though, there's only one in, one out.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:27

But yeah, I think, yeah, it's like pay attention to like, is it a little bit of fear that you feel like you can tolerate and are a little like enjoying a little in a funny paradoxical kind of way? Or are you unnecessarily like agonizing for it? Yeah. What's tough about that though is like you could be unnecessarily agonizing about it and you're midway through this haunted house. Right. You might not know. Take it out the other side. Right. That's what I find scary about the haunted house. Like a movie, you can turn it off.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:57

And you can flip on something else that like can kind of reset you a bit. True. At least until you hit those lights to go to sleep. Unless it's bedtime. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:06

And then you just find that.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:11

Yes. Totally. Like every night after I saw the ring, there was literally a witch coming out of the TV.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:16

That was a weird really cool movie. No, in real life. That was a really creepy movie.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:21

Every night.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:22

That was scary, is all I'm trying to say. I mean, I had a TV in my room. I was sleeping by my side. I think it was actually like the first year I had my own bedroom. That's the year I saw the ring. Oh, geez. Happy birthday. Happy birthday. Terrible. I think I'm yeah, I think I liked it until I saw the ring.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:39

Then you know what's funny? The ring was like way too hyped up for me. People were like, You're never, you see me the scariest thing you've ever looked at in your entire life. So I literally was like shaking, and then I watched it and I was like, that actually wasn't that bad. Is that crazy? Well, you knew about the concept before, right? Like, what's so scary about it? The concept. Just like that a woman crawls out of the TV? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:00

Yeah. I think the way it was filmed is.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:02

And the macabre, the macabre imagery.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:05

Like, I'm going to go to the video. I think Exorcist is I think Ring scared me more.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:11

But when I was a kid and I saw clips, like you were saying, John, like I feel like I saw little like clips of Exorcist on the TV. It was like making of the Exorcist when I was um, I don't know, like eight. It was actually the first time I was in Chicago. We were staying at the Swiss Hotel.

SPEAKER_05 1:34:24

No.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:25

And I remember like see I think my dad was watching it, and it was like making of the exorcist exorcist. And I saw it out of the corner of my eye, and like that, you know, it stayed with me for like years. Years. Wow. Like the head spinning around and the vomit.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:38

I think I saw like oh yeah. The walking down backwards.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:42

Like so built. Maybe what you're saying, like it was so built up in my imagination that but by the time I watched it in I don't know, like eighth or ninth grade. It's not, I did think it was scary. I think I was more scared of the part where she was in the hospital getting all the tests done and they're drawing the blood and she's screaming, kind of before she starts to turn. And then once she turns, I've I kind of had that so built up in my head that it was almost a little. It is kind of a little funny. Oh, totally. It's like a cartoon. But scary. Very scary.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:16

Yeah, totally. Okay, so it's wise in a lot of ways, but just use your wise mind. Yeah. Because it can veer into unwise. Okay, so that's our episode. Happy Halloween.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:31

I think we did Halloween really well.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:34

Yeah. And you can offset your scary viewing with like a pumpkin latte. Of course. Sure.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:42

Nothing more wholesome.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:44

Something a little pump skin. A little lighter. Yeah. Watch a little Wembley.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:48

Or watch just a nice fall movie.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:50

Yeah. Yeah, like a romance.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:53

A romance movie.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:54

With like Meg Ryan kind of thing.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:57

She's always in a fall movie. Yeah. For sure. Totally. Totally.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:00

Okay. Well, until next week. Thanks everyone for joining us. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:07

Do we want to plug ourselves? Oh, yeah. Plug it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:10

You can find me at um kkpsychotherapy.com if you want to work with me, wanna ask me questions about the pot, about anything really, you can find me there and John.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:19

Yeah, same. Reach out. Any questions, but jonathan at gmail.com.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:26

You can reach out to me at joshbayerfilms.com. Baer is in the aspirin, and I will perform all of your editing needs in the blink of an eye. And I also want to plug ghosts because if you've seen one, let me know.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:39

Let us know. Okay, thanks everyone.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:41

Thanks, everybody. See you.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:42

Love you. Bye.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:48

The Wisemind Happy Hour podcast is for entertainment purposes only, not to be treated as medical advice. If you are struggling with your mental health, please seek medical attention or counseling.