The Wise Mind Happy Hour
Two therapists musing about the idea of an inner wise mind and how to connect with this psychic space in different contexts.
The Wise Mind Happy Hour
it's wise to talk about SUICIDE (feat. Lisa Klein)
Acclaimed documentary director Lisa Klein ("The S Word," "Out Here," "Of Two Minds") joins us on this very special episode to debunk popular suicide myths and help us understand why feeling free to talk about it (and joke about it, even) is hugely essential to curbing our country's alarmingly high suicide rate.
- music by blanket forts -
Okay, welcome to the Wise Mind Happy Hour. I'm Kelly.
SPEAKER_04:And I'm John.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. Woo! We're back. We're back. Um it's been such a long week. No, I don't know. We've been away for so long. We've been away for so long. I know it feels like not that long.
SPEAKER_04:I don't think it does.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, right? Does it? No. Feels short to you. Feels like a week to me. Yeah. Yeah, it feels like a week. It feels like a week. Totally. It feels normal. It felt like a week. Yeah. Well, yeah. What have you been up to?
SPEAKER_04:Uh well, I mean, I think the big news was for all you sports fans out there, the Packers beat the Bears this past week. Yes, wow. For those of you keeping tabs at home, which I know none of our listeners are, uh, but longest rivalry in the NFL. There's a lot. Is it the longest? It is.
SPEAKER_05:Wow. I was trying to tell Josh, like, this is a major rivalry.
SPEAKER_04:They're like two of the oldest teams in the NFL, and yeah, it's like the longest rivalry. The oldest, the longest. Um, and so there was a lot of riding on this game. My son, both of my sons are Packer fans, and we live in Chicago, obviously. So um, surprisingly, they have a good group of friends that are, you know, of the Packer fandom.
SPEAKER_05:Really?
SPEAKER_04:They identify as Packer fans, they are still in the minority. So there was a bet at school that if the Packers won, then the kids who are Bear fans would have to wear like these Packer headbands, and vice versa. So my son was very heightened. Packers pulled it out, though, so he got to enjoy that at school.
SPEAKER_05:Nice. This is Wes. This is Wes. Yes.
SPEAKER_04:But it was exciting to watch the game. I got to watch it with Shane, my youngest, and so we were going crazy because it actually came down to the final play.
SPEAKER_05:So yeah, because we watched a part of it because we went to pick up our Christmas tree at my mom's, and it was just on. So Josh Josh and I would never turn that on, but we was just there, so we were watching it, and I was like, oh wow, they're like picking up Steam at one point.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah. Packers played well in the first half, and then the Bears came back. A little bit, yeah. It was a close game.
SPEAKER_05:That's so fun. I love that they had them wear the gear. That's cute.
SPEAKER_04:I know. So so that was a fun. It's always because no matter how bad either of those teams are or how good they are, those games are just more heightened with that rivalry, which is just fun.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, definitely. Who's who's the lions' biggest rival?
SPEAKER_04:Oh, uh, probably the Packers. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Really? But the Bears are a bigger rival for the Packers than the Lions, is what you're saying. Probably, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Okay. The Lions are small potatoes. No, I'm kidding. Just kidding. Just kidding. They're a sweet potato. They're a sweet potato. Just kidding. But yeah, we were doing that. And then my boys are like both in flag football. So it's like a very, uh, very sporty.
SPEAKER_05:Wow.
SPEAKER_04:But I did take take them both to the Chris Kindle market at Wrigley Field.
SPEAKER_05:Wow, how was it?
SPEAKER_04:It was fun. It's it was cold. It was cold. Um, but it was a nice walk and it was cool. The tree there is gorgeous. There's a huge tree right in the middle of it. And I love seeing Christmas trees. I think we talked about this last year on the pod, seeing people's trees.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:In their windows and stuff. In their windows.
SPEAKER_03:And now I'm sitting by your tree.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, our trees.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, let me zoom out on the camera.
SPEAKER_04:Although I will put it up. I will say, are you all is this like a blank canvas that as you continue as a family, you're gonna get more ornaments? Is that the idea? Or do you want to keep it?
SPEAKER_05:I sort of like it like that.
SPEAKER_04:Okay, you like it.
SPEAKER_05:She now, I could I have a child and they say, Mom, I want this. You know, I'll probably say, okay, you can put it in the back.
SPEAKER_04:It looks great, but I do notice there's like a pickleball paddle here.
SPEAKER_05:Yes, Josh's sister got us that.
SPEAKER_04:And the wise might. So I was wondering if this is like if you all are open to ornaments, because you know, maybe we're open to them totally. Okay. Limited number.
SPEAKER_05:I mean, growing up, my tree was like, you know, glued popsicle sticks. I love like pictures of us and stuff. It is fun. Um, but yeah, it's not what you're going for. Not the look. I can tell. I'm like a grinch about that. But I kind of well, we actually we were hoping to just have gold and white ornaments, but we couldn't find the gold ones. So now we just have red and white and then pepper.
SPEAKER_04:Do they do they have to be that size?
SPEAKER_05:No. These were the only ones we've got. I got them. Okay. So bigger ones would be welcome. All right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Well, anyway.
SPEAKER_05:What I'm really against is colored lights.
SPEAKER_04:You're against the colored lights. Do you like those? We have a rainbow Christmas tree and colored lights.
SPEAKER_05:So well, that's kind of cool.
SPEAKER_04:I have to show yeah, maybe I have a picture of it.
SPEAKER_05:Rainbow, it's like that's you're leaning so far into the so far into the color for the tree. Oh my god, I love that you have a rainbow tree.
SPEAKER_04:How fun. Yeah, we got it a couple of years ago. Um, and I think it was it might have been like during COVID, where it was like, we gotta like go like bright, happy, yeah, like everything is so drag. Turn the volume up. Yeah. Um, so you can't really see the colored lights in there as much. But if it was dark, you can't.
SPEAKER_05:I love it.
SPEAKER_04:So look at this, Josh. This is the tree, and we haven't put the star on because usually uh Sarah takes Oh my god. Sarah takes a picture truffle tree of me holding the boys, and they both like will put it on. So um and it's the star of David. So it's uh interface.
SPEAKER_05:I always wondered if someone did the star of David. Yeah, we do the star of David.
SPEAKER_04:Yep, we it's interface.
SPEAKER_05:That's a great idea. We should we should eventually do that. We have like a little flower at the top, basically, that looks kind of like a star. But what have you all been up to? Wait, I feel like I've been just talking. No, speaking of Christmas trees, we had this thing where we get the tree from my mom because she has a bunch of trees, and we had gone with this like skinny tree forever. And then last year we thought we were taking a skinny tree and we took one of the bigger trees. And we were kind of just like, should we just go with this? And so what we assumed was we had gone with it, given it back to her at the end of the season, and we were like, oh, let's go back over to my mom's to pick it up and put it up again for this year. And they were like, Well, which tree do you want this year? And we were like going back and forth, couldn't figure out, like, we were like, let's just go with the bigger one. It worked out, it's more festive. We went with it, and Josh is like, I'm pretty sure we have the ornaments at home. And I was like, Okay, great. My mom's like, Well, I'll give you these ornaments in case you don't, whatever. Josh is like looking all around, he looks under the bed for the ornaments. He turns to me, he goes, There's a Christmas tree under here, under our bed. So you have two Christmas trees? So we guess we never gave the tree back to my mom, and we just shoved it under our bed, which is crazy. And now we have that tree and this one under the bed and ornaments.
SPEAKER_04:It's not the one you had last year. You had the other tree up last year.
SPEAKER_05:We had, I think, a an identical tree to this. I was gonna say this the one the that one is under our bed, but I do think it is identical to this.
SPEAKER_04:And also, for people who have listened a few podcasts ago, why is it in my resting place under the bed? Because I live.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, really. You're gonna have to sleep next to the tree box. That seems really rude. Or maybe it's just an empty box, and that is where you sleep.
SPEAKER_04:Sleep in the tree. Sleep in the tree box. The tree's cozy. It is cozy. It's got warm limbs.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, it's a little prickly sometimes, but it's a little prickly, but it's cozy. Um, so yeah, like that that was part of it. Well, we mostly what we did over the weekend was we hosted Josh's sister who she was visiting, which was nice. Um, we Josh and I, can you believe at our ripe old age of 36 on Friday night, we stayed out until basement. Well, at basement.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh 1:42 a.m. Wow.
SPEAKER_05:We were literally out that late. I was standing there at basement and I was like, I can't believe I'm awake. Wait, where is basement? So it's basement is like it's new-ish. It's like in the last five years, I think it came out. Well, no, because we did a friend of mine's 30th birthday there. So it's been there at least six years. Um, it's in River North, right across the street from East Bank Club, that gym. Okay. Um, yeah, it's like way down there.
SPEAKER_04:And it's it's a late night bar or is it open past two?
SPEAKER_05:It's open until two. It's open until two. It's a dancing bar. Oh it's dancing, and our wedding band was performing. Oh, wow. Isn't that crazy? They a lot of wedding bands go there and kind of work out their live music. It's live music, yeah. Nice, but it's kind of wedding-y music, so it's great, but it's like, you know, be ready for that kind of thing.
SPEAKER_04:Um, so were you doing like one drink of alcohol and then one Red Bull to like stay?
SPEAKER_05:Well, we did have an espresso martini. Oh, there you go. Josh and I went to dinner, the two of us, and we had an espresso martini. And I I think that's the whole reason we stayed awake. Because the next day, the entire day, I felt like I had taken an ambient. Like I was like, I can't the whole day I yawned a thousand times. Yeah. And I was like, even when we were on our way to dinner, I was like, I want to just be in my bed. And it was, you know, 7 p.m.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:So I was like, I paid.
SPEAKER_04:Isn't that kind of the common thing? Is with the with aging.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Is and going out. It's it's yes, it's difficult to go out sometimes, but it's so much more of like the aftermath.
SPEAKER_05:The aftermath.
SPEAKER_04:How you feel, you're tired, you yeah, you just can't do anything. Totally.
SPEAKER_05:And yeah, it's like I I think when I was younger, it was realistic to have two weekend nights out. Oh my god. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:It's just like which was unwise on so many levels, including your pocketbook. But yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, like now it feels like just not.
SPEAKER_04:You really gotta gird your loins for one night. Totally. I'm proud of you for staying out until 142.
SPEAKER_05:I mean, we were like, I didn't even feel that old on Friday.
SPEAKER_04:Wait, 142 you left the bar, 142 you walked in your door.
SPEAKER_05:Left the bar. Wow, yeah, good job. I was in bed at like 2:30 because it takes me forever to wash my skin. Mike is attacking. Oh my god. I don't even know you.
SPEAKER_02:Mike is getting tired.
SPEAKER_05:So yeah, that was our weekend. We had some good meals, yeah. Basement. That was really it. I mean, I was freezing. I this is the time of year where I'm complaining 24-7 about how cold it is. But it's really cold. I think that's I think that's valid. Yeah, we walked, Josh and I walked to dinner. It was a 10-minute walk. I was like, you can't walk. Right at this point, 20 degrees. You can't walk. You're like, the wind.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. That's what makes it really bad. Definitely. Especially on the like the larger streets. You turn the corner and just hits you. Like right over here on Ashland or on Montrose or no. Wait, what is this up here, Lawrence?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, Clark, Lawrence. Clark, Lawrence, and Ashland all are pretty windy. Yeah. And yeah, we were just like so dying.
SPEAKER_04:But you know, I kind of like it sometimes.
SPEAKER_05:That's what Josh says.
SPEAKER_04:I kind of like the winter. I had that thought yesterday because Sarah ran out of salad dressing. And so I was like, you know what? Like, let me just go out. And she was like, no. I was like, you're already in your pajamas. I haven't changed yet. Let me just run out. And it was like a little bit later, and it was like, I kind of like this right now. It's quiet.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Like there's not a lot of people out. That's I like the winter here.
SPEAKER_05:The city is quiet. Yeah, there's things that sometimes.
SPEAKER_04:Now talk to me in January and February. That's when I'm like, get me out of here.
SPEAKER_05:Or March when we're like shoveling snow again. Yeah. I know. It's like I shouldn't be sick of it at this point.
SPEAKER_04:Now you know we're really old because we're complaining about the weather. I mean, truly. But I've been complaining about the weather since I was probably like 15.
SPEAKER_05:It's just hate the wind. And so often, if I'll tell a client that or something, they'll be like, are you not from here? And I'm like, Well, I'm born and raised in this hellhole. And I've never once enjoyed a winter here. But in the summer here, it's so magnificent. It's like you know, you can't win them all. You can't win them all. Yeah. But yeah, that was our weekend. Um, so now we'll make a little segue into our guest today, who is the documentary filmmaker Lisa Klein. Lisa has written and directed many documentaries, some of which are of two minds, the S-word, and most recently out here, a short film about um houselessness in the Sacramento area. So welcome, Lisa. Welcome to the Wise Mind Happy Hour. Welcome.
SPEAKER_04:We're happy to have you.
SPEAKER_05:Thanks. Yeah, thank you so much for joining us. Um, I feel like I, I mean, I really crunched down your bio. There's a lot there. We have so many reasons we wanted to have you on the pod. One just being we love you, and you're so close with Josh and really like brought him into the documentary world, he was saying, you know, like guided him, inspired him, all this stuff. But we also wanted to have you on the pod because it seems like you have at least a little bit of a kind of creative focus on mental health and kind of like tangential things to mental health. And obviously, we talk a ton about mental health, we're therapists. So, yeah, we we thought this would be like an amazing fit to have you on. But let's start kind of all the way at the beginning here. Um, and just tell us a little bit about your journey to becoming a filmmaker, what interested you in being a filmmaker? Give us kind of that background a little bit. And tell us also like where you're from and where you are now.
SPEAKER_01:Born and raised in Detroit, Michigan, outside of Detroit. So from then to now As much as you want. Yeah. A lot happened between a lot happened between birth and today. But um no, so let me let me kind of think. It's not like I I've never been asked that question, but um it always per yeah, because then I have to like be articulate or something. All right. So let me you don't have my mom, my well, my mom is a journalist. So so like writing was kind of a a path in that it just it it it just always interested me and it was always there. And then movies, filmmaking, the whole bit. I you know, so I like went to went to school and then uh elementary school and then beyond. And then um after college, I worked for a bit, and then I'm like, you know, I think I really do have to pursue this film thing. And sort of growing up in Detroit, and then I moved to DC, and neither of them were were big like film mechas. So I thought, you know, I I I need to kind of have access to stuff. So I kind of applied, well, I actually applied to some film schools and got into USC and thought I kind of wanted to go, kind of, but I thought I had to, because if you get into USC, you should probably go, blah, blah. Did that and then um was really into sort of you know, like writing scripts. I wrote like rom-com stuff, things like that. What if I read now I cringe? And then I met my partner, husband, filmmaking partner, and we were doing these behind the scenes kinds of things, like for bigger movies, and then we did um this thing for the variety. Is this too long? No, no, we love it, too long. Okay, all right, okay, because I'm I'm I'm boring myself, so I don't want to do it.
SPEAKER_04:But um we're therapists, we listen to people all day. Yeah, true. So we're a captive audience. Oh, I forgot.
SPEAKER_01:I'm doing a therapist, I have a lot, but I I won't go through all that. So um uh where was yeah, so we were doing this thing, this behind the scenes for it's kind of like a doctor's without borders thing. And then I just got to a point where I'm like, God, a lot of stuff, and you know, stuff in my background that I was like writing about and stuff, and I'm like, this stuff to me was a lot more interesting. The documentary focus would just became a lot more interesting to me to sort of pursue that path. And that's kind of how it, you know, sort of progressed. Yeah. If that makes yeah, yeah, totally.
SPEAKER_05:Okay, and can I ask, did you ever think about doing something other than making films?
SPEAKER_01:Like, did you think about like writing novels or I did I did have that momentary, like after graduating college, wow, should I go to law school? Um, should I become a therapist? Should I, you know, should I pursue psychology? I definitely thought about stuff. Yeah. And then I'm like, no, I'll just make films about it. Um, so it really became a thing. But in terms of writing, I mean, I'm I'm I've been trying to write this sort of um book thing, stories, more stories, more like memoir stories for like, I don't know, it feels like a hundred years, like for so long, you know, for years and years and years. And then like I'll write something, and then I'm like, nah, do I really want anyone else to read it? So I don't know. I mean, right now it's sort of the doc world is pretty much my thing. I got in during the pandemic when I thought I could be writing all the time, because what else could you do? I started painting and then realizing, God, I really suck at this. So I started collaging over the paintings. Yeah. And then I got into that. So that's sort of my other thing. So, you know, if I'm developing a doc or we're working on something and I need a moment, I'll go and like, you know, like paint a little.
SPEAKER_05:And these are some of your collages in the back, in the background of your colours. Yeah, these are these are some back here. Yeah, there's some uh cool. I love it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's kind of like sort of the cat lady of um of uh collages. I just really like during the pandemic, just kind of like went out of my mind. I was just doing a lot. I love it.
SPEAKER_05:You know what's funny when you say that um like you're writing this memoir and you're as you read it, you don't know if anyone you want anyone else to read it. I feel like that's almost like the sign of a good memoir, right? That it's like maybe like personal enough or you know, like yeah, bringing stuff to the surface enough that you're like, oh, I almost don't want people to read this. Doesn't mean you have to publish it, but it it makes me interested, you know.
SPEAKER_01:And part of it too is like, you know, when you have family members who aren't here anymore, sort of like, oh God, what would my mom be thinking? You know, you know, it's it that kind of thing too, you know. Like, are they gonna be proud or are they gonna be angry? I mean, they can't really be either because they're dead, but yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Spiritually, yeah, totally. Okay, well, you know, so today we decided we wanted to talk about, we could go in so many directions, but we want to talk about suicide because obviously it's something John and I deal with with clients all the time. This comes up. Um, you know, in Is it a lot?
SPEAKER_01:Is it a lot for you guys? Well, yeah. What would you say?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. I mean, I think that what comes up a lot in the work is probably more from my perspective, like suicidal ideation. So having thoughts and how do we relate to those thoughts and just the shame related to even having them and providing a safe space to. Try to normalize and explore and have compassion that you know humans have thoughts like that. Um, and certainly, you know, having experienced, you know, thankfully a handful of times, people that have completed and having to process that as a therapist. And I do mostly group work. So I'm working on a team with other therapists. So how do we hold that space for the other therapist? But also, you know, confidentiality plays into it if other clients or patients are asking what happened to this person. So it's definitely something that is talked about in the level of acuity that I currently work with. Um, a lot of people are coming from hospitalization stays, from um suicide attempts. So it's definitely at the forefront. Um, I think it does come more in the maybe like passive suicidal ideation thoughts, like having thoughts of doing it, but certainly creating safety plans with people and you know, making sure that family members and support are aware of you know what's going on and and what people are really struggling with or thinking about. So at least from from my perspective, that's kind of where um I see it a lot. Yeah, it's tricky.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, and I feel like these days, um, in my practice, it's almost more of like something that like kind of always flows in the background a little bit. I don't deal with a lot of acuity with it, where like on a day-to-day basis I'm concerned to that level, but at times, and you know, it's something I'm talking about. I mean, at least every week to some extent. And and yeah, like you're saying, how to manage the thoughts, how to relate to that part of you that is, you know, going to that place, understand it. And a lot, and and we'll talk about the film, but a lot of what the film does, like we do like a micro version of. But yeah, I mean, uh, it it comes up quite a bit in in what we do. So that's why the S-word is so incredible and powerful. Um, so yeah, tell us a little bit about what interested you in that subject and made you want to make a film about it.
SPEAKER_01:Well, what I'll tell you about that, but one thing to your point, when I was researching for the film, that was about like a year of just, you know, talking to, you know, therapists, talking to people who had um who had ideated, people who had lost people, you know, all all of the, you know, all of the different sides to this. And what really, really surprised me, there were a lot of psychiatrists and psychologists who said that suicide was a very small part of their education. And to me, it's sort of like you're gonna be a cardiologist, but you don't learn about heart attacks. Like it just didn't make any sense. Not that it's inevitable, you know, it, but it does loom in the background, you know. It's it's you know, particularly for certain communities more than others, um, you know, and and it just the fact that, you know, the the training for it, it sounds like by the time like with you guys, it's different because you're sort of trained in that area, but finding, you know, talking to people who who weren't really like, okay, well, that was uh a semester or a a portion, it just doesn't seem it seems like it needed to be a little more at the forefront.
SPEAKER_05:To that point, something I'll notice, especially this will be true with like certain clinicians or newer clinicians, the conversation of suicide just quickly becomes like a liability conversation rather than like going toward it and really exploring it, like teasing it out. It can be, it can be really scary. I think that's the benefit of both of us working in high levels of care. You know, you get a little less scared of it, and and it's easier to really like, let's talk about this in a more expansive way.
SPEAKER_04:And understandably so, I think whether you're a therapist or not, I think there's a real fear there that you're gonna do something wrong.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Or that you're gonna say something wrong. And so it's interesting, and you know, Kelly and I have been in the field for a while, and I think that a lot of that comes with experience. Not that you're ever comfortable with it, but you have to expose yourself to so many uncomfortable conversations within it in order to feel like, no, we need to be talking about this and exposing ourselves to these uncomfortable conversations. Because we also don't want to model for the people we work with that it's something we can't talk about or it's something that's shameful, right? Or it's something that, no, you can talk about whatever you want in here, but if it goes there, uh, I don't know about it. Or, you know, so we also want to hold the space and have a response that's yeah, this is serious, and we can sit in this together, right? Like we don't need to panic. And I think a lot of patients and clients that we work with shy away because people have had reactions where they immediately want to go to hospitalization as opposed to, and then people have a terrible experience being admitted to a hospital and having an inpatient stay. And so people are also scarred by that and don't want to talk about the thoughts of suicide. No, I'm just gonna leave that because I know I'm gonna be forced into an ambulance or you know, those types of things.
SPEAKER_01:So I mean, because the myth was always, wow, if you bring it up, then somebody's gonna be thinking about it, which was so ridiculous. It's kind of like a person just kind of walking around living their life, and then you bring, you know, are are you thinking about suicide? No, no, I wasn't, but now that you've mentioned it, sounds like a really good idea. Yeah, you know, and a lot of what I've been reading lately, and you guys are, you know, right at the forefront of this, is the whole idea of do you have a plan? You know, to asking somebody if they have a plan, if they're thinking about it and they have a plan. And and that was always sort of the thing, you know, when somebody says they do, you know that it's serious, and it's kind of like, okay, well, suicide, that's an option. Let's think of five other options, you know, what else can we, you know, to validate the fact that they're thinking about it and all of that. But then there's this um other study that talks about the the idea of you're thinking about it and you're toying with it. And God, is this something you know you don't want to be there tomorrow. You don't you don't want to wake up tomorrow because it just seems like another day of of of what you're going through. But you're also, I mean, there are there are questions, so you might answer that question really honestly. And then again, if you know you've you've attempted before, or you, you know, every single thing is going wrong, and then somebody asks you that, you might say, Oh, no, I'm good. So, um, you know, there's always that chance. You know, when people talk about the signs and and you know, whether it's giving stuff away or, you know, uh staying in bed for days or whatever, those are signs, but there's also the sign of I'm doing great. Yeah. Because I've got a plan. I have an exit strategy. Right. So how I mean, that's when I just, you know, when we were doing QA's and we we did like a long, like a 30-page sort of guide to how to talk about it, and you know, when we weren't there, when therapists weren't there. And so that to me seems like I mean, it's all difficult, it's all complex, but that seems to me to be the hardest part.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, and I think a lot of times patients or clients, there can be a sense of relief once in their mind they've maybe decided that this is uh that they do have a plan and they they have that where they might follow through with it.
SPEAKER_01:So there might be a sense of even and they may tell you and they may not.
SPEAKER_04:Right. Yeah. I think when we were when I I, you know, I was in grad school like 20 years ago, and I remember part of the like assessment was always, and I think Kelly and I used to talk about this. The idea of like asking somebody, well, do you have the means? And it that always seemed to me, and I think I don't want to speak for Kelly, but that always kind of seemed like, well, that's kind of a waste of a question because we all have the means to do it. Like anybody has a bottle of Tylenol in there, you know, like so. That was always kind of like, let's not put our energy into that, because anybody at any given moment has the means to do this. Um, I think nowadays it's more geared towards firearms for sure. Like, are those available readily available in the home? But um kind of the assessment process I think has morphed a little bit and and changed from more hopefully open conversations than just like these like really specific ones and then checking it off to make sure that you didn't you're not liable or something like that.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. Yeah, it is such a tricky thing. And and it's I've found in my own work, like the ethos that's helped me the most is is like just really calm exploration of any suicidal thought, not being afraid of it. You know, like the more you could spend a whole, if it's there, you can spend a whole session, like tell me. And I these days I treat it as a part and we notice and like kind of talk to the part of you that is fantasizing about that, wanting that, clinging to that, or fearing that or whatever it is. Because yeah, like if it's comfortable enough, they usually will share. Not in every case, but that's an important thing, the importance of being able to like relate to other people that have been in that place and and yeah, like share it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, I mean, when people talk, you know, community, the idea of like community or having people to talk to or whatever, like when I made the film, it it wasn't like I I don't know. I mean, there were there were a lot of thoughts. And for me, the what what to answer your your question from a while back, um I made the film because there was suicide in my family. So my father, my brother, um standard issue. And so um it I got to the point we you know did a film before this uh on bipolar, which was also in my family. And um in that film, there was a young woman who um took her own life, and I thought, okay, I've dealt with this now. And then after a couple minutes, I realized not really, I really hadn't. And so for me, it was talking to people who had lost people to suicide, was was part of the research, a big part of the research because that was my experience. And not that I didn't know that people had attempted and survived, uh, you know, I I I think in the back of my mind, I but it just wasn't my experience. It would have been a great experience, uh, or a better experience, I should say. I don't think that it necessarily would have been great. But then when I started talking to people who had attempted and survived, it made me think, wow, this is something. This is talking to people who have been on that ledge and who people could actually learn from and hear or hear, hear from, you know, kind of like when you're, you know, you're talking about um, you know, being incarcerated or you're talking about drugs or whatever. Who are the best people to talk, you know, who are the best people to talk to about that, you know, people who are in jail, who had been to jail, people who who are addicts, you know, and and who are recovering. I mean, talking to people who are there, who had been there, but have somehow are finding a different way. You can never really say found because it's always could all could often always be there, you know, in some way, but it's a lot more muted. So it just became the direction that we started, that we started heading in terms of the film.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. And did you find was there like a therapeutic element for you in meeting these people and kind of telling their stories and hearing them?
SPEAKER_01:Well, what was interesting was, you know, again, it it some um Des in the film, uh, the person who's the photographer in the film talks about um, you know, it's not like she was, you know, when she started photographing other survivors, people or or people who had attempted and survived. And she said, it's not like I was looking for a community, but boy, I found one. And it's not like I was making the film so I could find people who had been through what I'd been through, but but I did. I did. And, you know, there were certain things, you know, that people said that it wasn't like, oh God, I feel so much better, you know, it wasn't like a it wasn't like a catharsis necessarily, which people asked that question. Wow, was it cathartic to make the movie? And I don't want to say it was, and I don't want to say it wasn't, because I don't know. I mean, I'm still thinking about, but I do know that talking to a lot of these people on camera and off was really revealing and emotional and all of the things. And I think it did help. Yes. I think if I really, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:It makes me, yeah, it makes me think of when we talk, especially in the group space, because Kelly and I have a lot of experience with that, but that sense of common humanity where it's not nobody's fixing one another, it's just that sense of that shared, um, not that any experience is exactly the same, but that shared humanity and and the struggles that we go through as humans. Um which, yeah, it might not be cathartic or what you were looking for, and just that connection through that sounds really powerful. I mean, the film is extremely, extremely powerful. I had to watch it in two sittings because I felt myself very I mean, I was very moved by it, but also just yeah, it was just a lot for me to to sit with, which I appreciated to be able to sit and think on a lot of it and then like finish it off. So you know.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:No, it's uh it I realize, I mean, it is a lot, and it's um it's one of those things, particularly if you have lost somebody to suicide and it happened, it's fresh, I don't recommend it. And I I mean it's to watch it right then, you know, although there are people who have and it's hard. I mean, it's hard, you know, but maybe for some people it's healing, hopefully. You know, I mean, I want it to be like when people ask, you know, who's your audience? You know, I would say, well, you know, people who had attempted, people who had lost people, and everyone else. Because I think we're all we either know somebody or we're gonna know somebody, or we know somebody who knows somebody. And we may know somebody and not know what they're going through.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So there are just so many reasons, so many things. And I think like what you said, John, too. I mean, it's humanity. You know, it really does come down to humanity. And before we even, you know, took a camera out, my first thought process was like when I start thinking about it, like I want everybody on the crew to have experienced suicide in some way, whether they lost somebody or they've attacked. And then I I realized, no, that is so not the right, not the approach I want. And, you know, we worked with an editor, I won't name names, um, who had never been through that experience. And it was great because getting that perspective from somebody who really was kind of learning on the job about that particular process, you know, those processes, um, was was also really helpful to me because you don't want to use inside baseball language and um you want the feelings and you want the um you want you want stuff to be humane and universal, I think, you know, as opposed to just speaking only to people who had lost people or only to people who had been on that ledge. Yeah. And I wanted to go beyond that.
SPEAKER_05:Well, yeah, I thought it was interesting to um, you know, like the depicting the people who are survivors, and then um the young man, I'm forgetting his name now, who did die by suicide.
SPEAKER_01:Um Are you talking about in the S-word?
SPEAKER_05:In the S-word, yes. Um, the one who Brandon. Brandon, yes. Right. Um and I thought that was so interesting, you know, hearing his story and the supports around him and a lot of their guilt and like even the complexity of the grief in that situation.
SPEAKER_01:Because what did I miss? Yeah. Yeah. Why didn't I? Where why wasn't I? All of the yeah, all of those questions.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I should have done this one thing.
SPEAKER_01:I should have done this, why didn't I do that? It's a c that is common. That with with people who we interviewed and who people who we talked to, that is very much a commonality. And that's and you know, the guilt and stuff, and and I would like to think that that lessens with time, but it at least for me, it's it's um kind of like when you hear a song or smell a smell or taste a food or whatever, it brings it back. You know, it does bring it, it it brings it right to that, you know, right to that moment. And then, you know, and then you go on with you know life, and uh, and then you know, so it's it's uh yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Do you think uh the film making the film like changed any of your perspectives on suicide? And yeah, was there anything like unusual that came up?
SPEAKER_01:Oh yeah, I mean, we talked to so many people and so many things that we didn't want to get wrong, sort of um, you know, s not using the word committed, um, you know, dying by suicide, that was, you know, a a thing. And just yeah, there was there was a lot. I mean, again, could I have gotten into my brother's head? No. But talking to people so it's hard to, you know, kind of totally touch, but um, talking to people and and where they were and how far they had gotten to the point of, and the idea of like, you know, because there were some people like when they woke up and realized, well, you know, I'm still alive. There it was, I mean, some were grateful, but some were like, oh my God, I screwed that up too. Yeah, you know, and and so it gives you sort of the idea of God, maybe you really didn't want to be here, but then there are people who are like, I was wrong, I need to be here, you know, and like all of the things, all of the different sort of aspects of it, and really understanding the because I Never understood the well wanting to die. Because have any of us actually been dead? And there's some people who might say they have and they're reincarnated, you know, whatever they might be thinking. But for the most part, it isn't that. It is, as we said earlier, it's about not wanting to deal with this pain anymore. Yeah. And I think a lot of people, you know, who go through, you know, I mean, sometimes the world is really not a great place and um things don't go the way you want them to, or you know, but it's not as simple as that because you know, Joe could lose his job, get get divorced, and lose a pet and still want to be here tomorrow. Whereas, you know, um Fred has gone through all those things and absolutely does not because Fred, there's something else going on. Yeah. You know, most likely. Again, you guys would know, but there's most likely something else, whether it's, you know, I I I know that you know resilience is a controversial word, you know. I mean, some people like it, some people don't. Um, but um, yeah, so yeah, yeah, it's just it's just there are just too many factors to make it easy. And I I guess in terms of documentaries, I guess I don't the only the common factor is make is making films that have zero solutions.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah, that speaks to me. I like that, yeah. Totally.
SPEAKER_05:Well, yeah, and and maybe not seeking a solution is ultimately, and I like that about your films in general. So it was out here too, you know, looking at like what of this is important for us to contact and understand and explore. You know, like it's something I was thinking about this as I was watching um the S-word again. Um, I was telling a loved one of mine about like working with suicidal clients and and working in higher levels of levels of care where you see that more. And they very like curiously, this wasn't like malicious or anything, they were genuinely curious, but they were wondering, you know, like if someone really wants to take their own life, like do you feel like you have a right to stop them from that or try to, or and it was interesting, like I hadn't really thought about that because there's so much we do that is especially like I have a social work degree and it's really about self-determination, is such an important piece of it and kind of a unique piece of like therapy that we do today. And I remembered thinking, like, kind of forming this idea of like, if someone on any level is letting me know that this is going on for them, there is some part of them that is at least ambivalent. And that's the part, that's the only part we ever work with. Because you can't ask someone to feel or be driven in a different way than what they actually feel. And if they're in great enough pain, I can understand that and feeling like there can't be anything worse than this. I I do have respect for that. And I think that's something important to almost like respecting a suicidal part of someone, like there it is trying to protect them from something that truly feels unbearable. And I'd like to think I'm not, you know, telling them, well, you have to be alive anyway, but more looking at if there's any way that I've come to know this. They've somehow communicated it. And that's what we work with, you know, and we don't ever really solve it, but we show them like this part of you that's sharing with me now is something that I, you know, I can hold with you and we can talk to the other side that is more convinced.
SPEAKER_01:And I don't know if that makes sense, but it is it's incredibly tricky because when you're talking about like a right to die and you have to prove in some states, like you have to prove that you have something terminal, you know, like you have cancer or you have something and you know it's terminal. And if you have somebody with severe depression, let's say this person is in their 50s or 60s, I mean they've been living with this forever, and it's been horrific forever, would that not be a kind of a terminal illness as well? Yeah.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Just here instead of here.
SPEAKER_06:Right.
SPEAKER_01:But it's all one thing. So I mean, how do you determine that? And and I think that makes it really, I think that makes it really difficult. It is a really tricky thing.
SPEAKER_05:And I do love that the film and all the characters in it, they had like a thread among all of them, but very unique kind of relationships to their like suicidal parts, you know, various like degrees of activism or um what did what did Leah say, advocacy or activism, depending on her mood. Oh, the mood. Yeah, that was great. That was a very good thing. Right, depending on your mood. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, but I thought that was great.
SPEAKER_01:And none of them are free of this. I mean, everybody's, you know, they're good days, bad days, and struggles. And um the there was definitely a fear in making this movie that I would that we would lose somebody. Yeah. I mean, that was, you know, and I felt responsible uh, you know, for for that, you know, for taking care of people and their thoughts and their feelings. As you said, I mean, you can't tell somebody how to feel. You can't, you can't, like, you know, when somebody tells you they're thinking about suicide, nah, no, you're not. No, you're fine.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Like pull yourself up by your boots. Yeah, like, no, you can't. You can't do that.
SPEAKER_06:Right.
SPEAKER_01:And um, so it's sort of respecting, as you said, you know, their their feelings and where they are. And, you know, in making the film, like you saw Dez, the one with the camera, when she, because we gave people their own cameras, and when she was talking about, you know, I'm not having a good day, this isn't good, you know. I've been thinking about, you know, so yeah, it's a lot. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:It's a lot. Definitely. It takes a lot of courage to take on that subject for both you and Joshi over here.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, but and I think that that's an another thing that I was sitting with was the the to me, kind of like that parallel process of what's going on. It's like, no, people don't talk about this. And it's as a filmmaker, you could choose not to make a film about this, right? And so it's like, and you're like, no, we're people need to talk about this, and I'm making a film about it, and I'm making a documentary about it because like that is if I if I don't make a film about this, we're just kind of reinforcing what you know the culture thinks about this subject. And so exactly.
SPEAKER_01:And that and and I think for me also like because everybody deals with grief differ in different ways, and a lot of people just don't want to talk about it because the thought, if we don't talk about it, then it's not really there. Um, and but you can go the other way, then then nothing heals in the dark way. Um, which I tend to be more, you know, I I do feel that way. I I mean, I feel like you have to bring things to the light. And for me, you know, this wasn't like, oh my God, I'm this selfless filmmaker doing this thing. I did it for me too. I mean, because for me, running toward it was the only way I could deal with it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Because I, you know, it's like I had so many questions and so many things, and I I needed to, I needed to bring I needed to bring it in up forward.
SPEAKER_05:And it is like to your point, being a therapist who talks about this and and making a film about it, there is like a courage or like a like a liability in both cases, right? What if something happens to someone in this? Or what if people are offended by the way, you know, I mean, online and offended.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. Yeah. Online hate. Right. And I remember when when I first started doing therapy, I was very afraid. I'm remembering this now, like very afraid to approach this subject. And I had a great supervisor who was like tough on me, but also would give me like incredible guidance. And he would say, like, anytime you're sensing that coming up, they're telling you about that. He would always say, like, where are suicidal thoughts today? Like, almost kind of like in any session, you could ask that every time you meet with them if you want, like, normalize it, make that something that is just a one of the questions of the day, just like, how are you feeling? Where are suicidal thoughts today? And over time, like, I got more comfortable. And I remember at some point thinking to myself, you know, like, do I want to be the kind of clinician who's like worried about offending someone or getting in trouble, or the kind that's really focused on like what is helpful to this person, even if it's scary. And that helps me to go back to that. Because there is a little fear sometimes, you know, what's gonna happen when I open this door.
SPEAKER_01:But I think a lot of people appreciate you opening the door because they get to talk about something that's scaring them and they have somebody sitting beside them to kind of walk through it and and hear them, you know, because they're afraid to tell their mother or their partner or their, you know, it's it's yeah, but when they do, when they start telling people, I think is when I think that's a really positive step, you know, when you when you start talking about because when you were talking about the fear for the person, we had we talked to several people who were like, Yeah, I've been to the hospital and I'm never going again.
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:And the idea of forced care, you know, or or being committed, things like that. It's like, uh-uh, no, no, I will say I'm okay until literally the day I die because I am not gonna, I'm not going back to that place, because that place was not a place of healing. Yeah, it was horrible, and I was locked up, and this isn't what I, you know, I'm I'm that's that's not gonna work. Yeah, it's not, it's not okay, you know. So and that puts people, you know, could because the idea of, you know, a 51-50 or or 72-hour hole, whatever, is to keep people safe for that amount of time until they get to a place where they can be, but you don't know that they're gonna be in that place after they're released. And and I mean there's so many, there's just so many things that can go right and wrong, I guess, with that. Um, but you know, wrong for sure in terms of um faking, you know, faking their way out.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:You know, saying, Yeah, I'm doing great, and you know, just just to get out of there. Yeah. Just to go home.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, that I mean, that's a big part of why. Um, I mean, our podcast is the why is mine happy hour talking about it comes from DBT. Marcia Linhan was hospitalized like 10 plus times for suicidality. Right. And really found like the hospital kind of system, that process of being psychiatrically hospitalized was not helpful and not not helpful in the moment, not helpful in the long term. And yeah, like talking more directly about it, finding skills to use for that part of her, you know, transformed things. And yeah, for so many people too. So bringing it back to that wise mind. Yeah. Yeah. And I guess since we do talk about the wise mind on this podcast, you know, if we have any other thoughts on the suicide topic, we can go there. But I'm curious, too, more generally, Lisa, um, for you, like this idea of wise mind, we conceptualize it the DBT way. Um, but also just we think of it as this general state of being that you get to one way or another that helps guide you toward like right feeling decisions in your life, consciousness, like that kind of like alignment. So I'm curious, like if you think about that concept of your own wise mind. And being a filmmaker, I'm sure, is a huge part of this. And I know you're also a consumer of therapy. You know, where do you find you foster your wise mind? How do you get to that? I'm curious.
SPEAKER_01:That is a great question because I think, and I don't know if you've come across this too, there's so much unwise mind that I have. Yeah. You know, and I think getting through that, um, you know, having so many instances of, oh God, why did I do that? How can I do that better? How can I do that differently? Like, I think it's the stumble that sort of, you know, and then and then being able to kind of hold that bar to to to get up. Um I think is is a huge part of it. But I I think, you know, in choosing sort of what I'm because, you know, we've been doing this for a while. So one thing that comes with that is being able to choose the the projects um based on what is gonna make it's gonna sound so twee and pretentious to say what's gonna make the world a better place. Um but in a in a sense, it's kind of like why would I waste any time doing a documentary if I didn't feel that way? Do you know what I mean? Like, like because it isn't an easy, quick process to, you know, like this the S word was five years. Um out here for me was only a couple years, but it was also five years before that. So it's it's just once you sort of commit to something, it is you have to be passionate about it and you have to feel like it's really gonna make a difference because otherwise, you know, why not? And some of the wise mind, I think, is and I I'm realizing this more, it's it's kind of like because I I I really this took me a long time to sort of knock this into my head was the oxygen mask on you first to help somebody else. And I think like with having a kid, like the only thing you want to do is help them. Like, like, like, no, I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna save them for I'm gonna do that, you know, and and then realizing as time goes on, like if you're in this sort of frenzied place, you're not gonna be able to help anybody. Yeah, so it's it's trying to center myself, I think. You know, again, oftentimes does not work, oftentimes it doesn't, but when it does, it's just just great feeling, whether it's meditation or yeah, talking to somebody, whatever it may be. So I I don't know if I'm answering your question. Yeah, no, you are.
SPEAKER_04:I I love I love what you said about like committing, because that's a word I use a lot is like committing to what's meaningful to us. So yeah, like I I don't think it's cliche to say make the world a better place. Like if it's meaningful, if it's you know, we talk a lot about values on the podcast too. Like, are those your guiding kind of principles? Like, this is something I value and it's meaningful, and I'm gonna commit to it. And certainly the length of time it takes to make documentaries, you don't know what the final outcome is is gonna be. And so you're just committing to the process of it, which that to me is like really invigorating to hear when anybody's like, I don't know what the end product's gonna look like, but because it's meaningful, I know that I want to still commit to it. Um, and I think there's a lot of wisdom with that.
SPEAKER_01:And the work that you guys do, I don't think you'd be sitting there doing the work that you're doing if you weren't thinking, like, yeah, I'm just gonna talk to this person for an hour and they'll walk away and they won't get anything out of it. It's not a big deal to me. Yeah. I don't think you're doing that.
SPEAKER_05:So it's kind of what makes being a documentary filmmaker so similar to being a therapist because like the material is so like live and and there's so much discovery that you just have to be like open to, I imagine. You know, you go in and we do this, like you go in with these ideas like what we talked about in the previous session, like their background, like these things, and you start to get a sense of like what shape the treatment could take, but so much of it is be present and and notice and then follow from there. And that's so much of at least from from what I've heard so much from Josh, is the process of what he loves about it, wouldn't you say?
SPEAKER_03:Just finding the what catching the catching the dragon.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, like discovery.
SPEAKER_03:Well, yeah, I feel like I could be like on a run and I'll have like sugar plums dancing in my head of like almost like editing the scene, and I'll kind of like have to tell myself, like, just go on your run. This is your like space to like like it's good to walk away and come back, and I'll I'll like feel like I have the scene all solved, and then I'll come back and I just like do it a completely different way. Yeah. But yeah, I think it's I think it's nice to have that inspiration, but then it's like liberating kind of to be open and to be flexible and to like have a whole preconceived notion and then like end up like redoing the whole thing. And I feel like I used to get a little frustrated, I'd be like, oh my god, that was like such a waste of time. Like, or you could spend, you know, a week or two making a scene and then like throwing it in the trash, but yeah, I kind of love that about the process that it's not clean. Yeah, there's probably a helpful counterbalance to my OCD. Um like it's like when I'm writing a screenplay that's almost like too clean, and it's like there's well, I'm still stuck on the sugar plums, but I hear what you're saying.
SPEAKER_01:And um but I I you know that's true. And and the other thing is if you're not listening the whole time, like you've got to be listening. Like it's one thing, like I'll walk in with a bunch of questions, and if I'm still using all these questions and I'm just like going through my thing, uh-huh, then I've done it totally wrong. Like if you go in and you know that it's gonna go this way, and it ends up being that way, you've learned absolutely nothing along the way because you have to be open to the direction that it's gonna go. Yeah, you know, I mean, it just like you know, I thought I would be doing this film uh about people who had lost people to suicide, and that's what we'd be talking about, and then uh it went a very different way. Again, the with the the S-word is still about suicide. It wasn't like I started with that and then it became about swimming, but it still took a different direction within the realm of what I was trying to do.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, totally. And do you feel that about um out here as well?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, for sure, because this was conceived as a feature that was going to be talking to a bunch of families, people who were living outside. And one day, you know, once we realized like funding was really like, okay, we can pay for post, and we need to make this a short and we need to focus on something. And I don't know if I was like, you know, lying in bed at night or where I was at the moment of inspiration of, you know, we're gonna do this about Mark. Like we're gonna go a different direction within the direction. You know, even though we're talking about people who are living outside and are dealing with all this stuff, we have somebody who's been there and is doing the work and is out there doing, you know, doing that. And so I think that kind of, yeah, that definitely went a different direction for a different reason, but yeah, it it did. And I I think, yeah. And I would hope that if we ever do the feature or with anything we're doing, that there will be something that'll happen, whether the way somebody's talking about something or something we're seeing that's gonna bring it somewhere else. Because that's I don't know, it's kind of like you know, any conversation you're having with your friends or or whatever, where you're learning something along the way. You know, you you kind of need that, right? Because you want the people who are watching the film to be, you know, kind of on their toes and and and learning something like you know, they'll walk into a film about um the unhoused and think, God, I know that I'm tripping over them on the street, you know. Yeah, you don't want them to walk away feeling the same way, like something shifts, even if it's small.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. Okay, so that I like that putting your own oxygen mask on is part of your own wise mind, fostering, also like letting yourself stumble through it, discover things that definitely um resonates with me. And I'm curious for you, Josh, because we have the two filmmakers here. What do you think? What is putting on your own oxygen mask like look like in your process?
SPEAKER_03:Oh, in my process of editing or in my process of living my life.
SPEAKER_05:Well, I'm curious about both.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. In my process of editing, what is putting on my oxygen mask? I I think it's allowing myself time to explore. Obviously, we're always under a crunch and it is a job, but I know that if I and it's tricky because I can't just go down non-stop rabbit holes, but it's like maybe I'm gonna watch like every episode of the Twilight Zone at quadruple speed and like take a week doing that and get no scenes done, and I know that like that's gonna be an important part of the process. And like I feel like on every project there's that moment where I'm doing something that takes feels like it's taking longer than it should. And I would say about a hundred percent of the time it pays off, um, either literally or figuratively. But yeah, I I'll I'll just feel very like obsessive sometimes about watching like every inch of like some degree of footage. And I I think and it's like sometimes you know the other voice in my head is like shit or get off the pot, but like I feel like the Twilight Zone movie has all these like poetic moments where I'm using footage in like a surprising way or like reappropriating the footage like to illustrate something that kind of is like like to illustrate a metaphor of what someone's saying. And I'm glad that I took the time to watch literally every single episode, not necessarily in full, but like in on you know, on speed.
SPEAKER_05:Not literally on speed, but like yeah, so you'll kind of like be with the related material for a bit. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And there's times, you know, as Lisa would say, that it's probably not wise where I I think I was like cutting together all this like food B roll of the S-word of like a scene between these two women, and um, it was a scene that like didn't even make the final cut.
SPEAKER_01:So it's but that's good too. But that's good too, right? Because then you're seeing like, okay, but that didn't work, but then it might inspire you to do something else, yeah, right?
SPEAKER_03:Totally, totally, and I think it's yeah, it's this like kind of allowing yourself to go on these little tangents is part of what keeps the process like really I don't think you can be a good editor and not be obsessive.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I think you have to be obsessive. I mean, you have to have I think one of the requirements is OCD. Let's see, Josh.
SPEAKER_03:And then also setting boundaries with yourself and your and your employers.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, John, what do you think your oxygen masks are? Like as a therapist, as a person.
SPEAKER_04:Well, I think as a therapist, I think it's the I mean, luckily, I think it's almost like built in because I don't work weekends and I don't work evenings. And so that's I'm able to have family time every evening, yeah, um, all weekends. And so I feel like that in and of itself, just the way that my work is structured right now, is a huge, huge help. But I think for me, alone time is really important. I mean, I try to, if I can, go to a movie by myself, like by myself, yeah, once a week or twice or you know, once every two weeks. Um because I think talking to people so much during the day, and then when you have children who don't stop talking, and you met my kids, so you know that that there's not there's not there's not many moments of silence, is having that alone time is really important for me. Yeah. Um, so yeah, I don't know. Those would be maybe two things that come to mind.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I know. I'm like, I feel like I have a million. And what are yours? I have a bunch, and like I think I then I can really beat myself up if I'm not like doing them regularly, like meditating. Um, I have periods where I'm so committed to it, and periods where I'm just like resisting it so much, which is interesting. I yeah. Yeah, and it's like I'm in a period where I'll do it maybe twice a week, if that now. Um, but I'm even if I don't do it, I'll I'll I'll kind of negotiate with myself where I'll say like at least like tune into your body, notice if there's any tension anywhere, you know, anything, you know, and like I'll kind of talk to that part of me a little bit. Um, like today, for instance, I we Josh and I have had a million internet problems that have like driven us completely insane. Our internet is a real a real beast. And the guy came over, I had to cancel a bunch of sessions, move them around. It's stressful. And um when he left, I was still so like anxious, and and I had to really like talk to that part of me, like, it's okay. Like you had a chaotic day, you had to like disappoint several people that like are in need of help and processing, and you felt like you let them down. And it was helpful. I kind of just like talked to myself basically. That's probably the biggest thing I'll do is like turn that light on inward. Like, what is coming up right now? You have this frantic feeling, you know, what's going on. That's a big part of it. And and yeah, like even in a session, sometimes it's like, what is this bringing up in me? Which, like, I almost in any job you could do, definitely making documentaries, like what what's coming up here right now as I talk to this person, or even as I look at this, like whatever bit of footage, like am I inspired? Am I like creeped out? Am I whatever? You know, and kind of like knowing about yourself in that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean, it's just uh the because you know, when you're when you have that, you're better at probably everything, but you know, like John, you're talking about your family and and having that time, you're a lot better probably to your clients. You're better you're listening to them, you have that space. And you know, Kelly, like when you meditate like I know when I was meditating all the time, I was so much better at everything. And I need to get back to it, and I kick myself too for not doing it. Because I could say and I could think that, yeah, worry is one thing. Like you worry about it, and if it doesn't happen, you worried for nothing, you wasted all that time. And if it does happen, then so what? You worried about it, and then it happens and it's double worry. So, you know, what's the point? And I love that philosophy, and lately I don't live by it often enough.
SPEAKER_05:I know, I know, yeah. It's that like what is that adage? Like you worry, you suffer twice when you worry.
SPEAKER_01:You suffer twice, right? Because you're worried and you're worried, and then you find out, oh, that didn't even happen, so you worried for nothing, or you you worried twice. Right. Yeah. So there's no good reason to worry except being raised Jewish and knowing that you have to worry. I mean, that's you know, it was a given thing. So I didn't have a choice, so I could use that, I guess.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, yeah. I once told John when we were chairing an office, I was like, I think I'm addicted to suffering about things. I think you've said that more than once.
SPEAKER_01:I know. Like, true. Kelly loves to suffer. You love to suffer. You love to suffer. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Suffering is I mean, Lisa, this, this for some reason this just came to mind. There was one time in her office where Kelly was like, just out of the blue, she was like, God, I just I'm so obsessed with mid-century modern furniture, and I just can't stop. I need to, and it's like, why is that something to suffer over? Like, why are we suffering over mid-century modern to enjoy for like that's something to enjoy? Like, can't we enjoy mid-century? And you're like, but I can't.
SPEAKER_01:I guess you can enjoy it if you can't afford it, but if you can afford it and buy it, you know, there's that.
SPEAKER_04:Kelly only looks at West Elm.
SPEAKER_01:We suffer for our art all the time. We do suffer for our art. And I'm sure Josh understands that.
unknown:Totally.
SPEAKER_04:Love to suffer. But okay. Well, this is great. I mean, yeah. Wait, no, I have a one last question. Tell me. It's not that serious, though. Is that okay? Can I ask you a not serious question?
SPEAKER_01:Um, I'm a very serious person, John.
SPEAKER_04:And maybe you get this a little bit.
SPEAKER_01:I don't really like going off on tangents. But go ahead, try.
SPEAKER_04:I'm always interested in people who are extremely creative, extremely um just excel at their craft, which having seen two of your films, I know that you are. What are some of the quote-unquote bad films that you like or guilty pleasures? Maybe you don't consider any film bad because you're a filmmaker, but um Oh, I consider a lot of things bad. I love that.
SPEAKER_01:Going to film school makes you obnoxiously. But what are the ones that you pull stuff apart?
SPEAKER_04:The the bad ones that you like. Like it's so bad it's good, maybe. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, Josh, can you help me?
SPEAKER_03:You are you were watching all those bad horror movies during COVID.
SPEAKER_01:I need a lifeline. Can I phone a friend? Yeah, totally. Bad horror movies? What you uh those are all ones. What bad TV is easier. Oh, okay. Yeah, give me TV.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, give me TV.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. So I'm obsessed with John Oliver. I love John Oliver and I watch him all the time. So he was talking about the Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. I had never seen a real housewives show, but John Oliver, you know, he's like, oh my God, it's off the chain, blah, blah, blah. So that the Real Housewives of Salt Lake City is so ridiculous and bad, and they fight all the time and they hate on each other and they talk about each other and then they come back together. Love it.
SPEAKER_04:Okay, so you're a card carrying member. Are you gonna revisit all of the Housewives now? Or is that just your zone?
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely a hundred percent no, because I suppose if I was retired and had nothing to do, maybe it it's too much of a time waste. Yeah, but in terms of bad movies, I see movies. I'm far more critical, and I can't say that I liked a bad. Let me think. Um like a trash. Oh, oh, oh, oh, how can I not say that? All the final destinations. I don't know if they're good or bad. I loved everyone. So great. So not three. I think three was really two or three was bad. Really? But um, but the rest loved them. Bad horror movies. During the pandemic, my daughter and I were looking, it had to be like under 15, under 20 or 15 on Netflix. Like just on Rotten Tomatoes. It had to be really low.
SPEAKER_06:Okay.
SPEAKER_01:Love like um the row about like Slasher at in the fraternity. Oh bad horror. That's correct.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, what there is something about those Final Destination movies where it's like the dialogue is not realistic. There's all the strange is bad.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and they're not bad, but it's not. And then the Rube Goldberg sort of mode of killing.
SPEAKER_00:Yep.
SPEAKER_01:How awesome is that?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:You know, it's like this falls on this. I mean, it's kind of like out of home alone, but but more so. Yeah. Yeah. Uh love. I but truly, truly enjoy watching those.
SPEAKER_04:Well, thank you for thank you for indulging me. I love that.
SPEAKER_05:What's your do you have one? Your favorite like a bad movie.
SPEAKER_04:A good bad movie. I love, I really like bad romantic movies.
SPEAKER_06:Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Or like like the example? Like what? Like Hallmark? Hallmark. No, not like that. That's a good call though. But I like movies, like more feature films, like The Lake House with Keanu Reeves and Sandra Bolet. It's like a time travel movie, but they're only a year apart. It doesn't really make any sense.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I love when things don't make any sense.
SPEAKER_04:But it's like for some reason I like love that movie. And so it could be a rom-com or you know, just a straight up like romantic movie, but those I for some reason they really I I don't know. I like those.
SPEAKER_05:Those are great.
SPEAKER_01:Or like the the Big Sky is a really bad TV series. Oh, Big Sky. Reba McIntyre was in it.
SPEAKER_06:Oh my god.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, yeah. What was that? Yes.
SPEAKER_04:There was also that movie with like Deborah Messing where she like hires a guy to go to a wedding. Wedding dates. The wedding date. Yeah, like those types of movies. I like those movies.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. That movie makes sense.
SPEAKER_01:Does she end up with them?
SPEAKER_04:I mean she does, but she like rents him for this like wedding. She doesn't have a date, and so she rents him for this wedding in Europe. And it's you know, the hijinx that occurs.
SPEAKER_01:Hijinx ensues. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yes, exactly. So those are right. I don't know. Those are I like those types of bad movies for some reason. Yeah. I don't know.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Like meat cute, but it's not super cute. Yeah. Right. And I love when it's not at all realistic.
SPEAKER_04:Not at all.
SPEAKER_05:It's kind of fun. Like who greenlit this?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Or there's one called, I think, Little Italy, which wasn't even shot. Yeah, I saw that. That was so awful.
SPEAKER_01:But it's it's great. Yeah, it was great. Why not? Yeah. Yeah. Stuff like that I do like, and I do appreciate some some Hallmark movies. Yeah. Because they you you know, like you can relax because you know exactly what the formula is, and it's so ridiculous. And you know, she leaves her job and to go to the thing, and then there's the old boyfriend. Yeah, the all the tropes. Right. Tropes are fine. Tropes can be.
SPEAKER_04:They are. My aunt. I remember when certain people got elected. My aunt was like, I'm canceling every channel except Hallmark, and I'm never watching TV again. And I was like, that might actually be sound.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:That actually might be wise advice. Yeah, that might be wise.
SPEAKER_01:She didn't like Biden, huh?
SPEAKER_04:Oh, yeah, exactly. That was that was exactly the election I was. So I would thought.
SPEAKER_01:Tell me, do you have do you have bad do you have bad movies?
SPEAKER_05:I'm trying to think. Do you have I said some to you? I mean, I think so many movies are bad. Giley? Yeah. I've never seen that one.
SPEAKER_04:Let's watch that.
SPEAKER_05:Which one? Gili with Jennifer Lopez. I don't think so.
SPEAKER_01:I never saw it. I never saw that. I'm convinced no one's seen it.
SPEAKER_05:Isn't that universally panned? Yes. Yeah. A lot of Ben Affleck movies would fall into that for me. Um, yeah, what would be Except for Argo.
SPEAKER_04:Argo is pretty Argo is a great movie. That I did really like that. I maybe it's just because, isn't it? Um Alan Arkin in it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:I mean, and John Goodman. And I mean, there's just so many good Goodwill hunting.
SPEAKER_05:Goodwill hunting. Goodwill hunting is great. He has, when he's on, he's on. But there's a lot of that like phony Boston accent. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I can't. Except he's from Boston. Except he's from Boston. Except he's from Boston, yeah. But I guess the other actors in it, yeah. Like the town.
SPEAKER_04:Like you don't like the town?
SPEAKER_05:I shouldn't say I don't like the town because I'm aware that it's a good movie. He directed that, right? Yeah. But it's Boston.
SPEAKER_01:The lighting is so bad in here now. I mean, I'm just not that it matters anymore. But oh my god. Kelly likes bad scenes. I've been looking at you guys or looking at the thing, and I'm looking at myself. I'm like, ooh. Okay. That's okay. Don't put this on YouTube. Let's just make it an audio. Do what you have to do. Yeah. Do what you have to do.
SPEAKER_05:But this was fun. This was so fun. Thank you so much for joining us. This is amazing. And give us your plugs, like where people can find you. Um, you know, your Instagram if you have it, that kind of thing.
SPEAKER_01:Well, Instagram, it's only like uh what is our Instagram? I don't even know.
SPEAKER_03:Isn't it L Kleinster Collage?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, there's Kleinster Collage, they can see the collage stuff, but I think everything might be sued for some stuff, and then um madpixfilms.com. Okay. And then the S wordmovie.com. Stuff like that. I think you know. But the S word is so, you know, a couple years ago. Okay. Well, we can't oh, out here documentary.com, maybe? Yeah. I don't know what that one is. Is that what that is? Is that what that one is? I am so out here film, I think.
SPEAKER_03:Out here doc. Out here doc. It's I'm getting all this doctor stuff.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, I'm on bing.
SPEAKER_01:If you would ever get on hot if on hot ones, I would have a really hard time with the ending when you need to promote yourself.
SPEAKER_05:Oh my gosh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And you have like and I would need to drink a lot of milk and needle between both. Um, I don't think I'm I have to worry about any of it.
SPEAKER_05:So we will make you drink hot sauce.
SPEAKER_01:Great to do this. It was great meeting.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, so nice having you on. Um, and we'll have to get Doug Blush on to give us his um his documentary. Perspective on life, perspective, yeah, his wise mind. Um right.
SPEAKER_01:Well, good, yeah. Yeah, I think it'll yeah, I'm sure he would love to do it, actually.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, we'd love to have him. He's not very chatty, so it might be tough, but we'll coax it out of him. No, that guy'll talk. We love Doug. Um, but thank you so much. Okay.
SPEAKER_04:Okay, so now we're gonna transition into our how wise is it question. Kelly, what is it?
SPEAKER_05:So, how wise is it to get a real Christmas tree?
SPEAKER_04:Oh, it's the holiday.
SPEAKER_05:What do they call it? Like a Douglas fur.
SPEAKER_04:A Fraser Douglas fur.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:All the dad name furs.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, yeah. It is like a dad name. Douglas. Michael Douglas fur.
SPEAKER_04:Michael Douglas.
SPEAKER_05:Michael Douglas fur. If they called it that, we might be having those.
SPEAKER_04:I Really, so I let's be transparent, right? I don't have a real tree. I have a fake one. Yes, too. Um last year we did buy a small real one for the boys. Fun. And it did make me reminisce and miss having a real one. Growing up as a child, my family did that probably until I don't know, maybe until I was in like high school. Yeah. And the the smell alone is fantastic.
SPEAKER_05:That's it.
SPEAKER_04:It just smells so good. And I know nowadays you can get diffusers or candles or anything that kind of has that smell, but having that tree and the smell in your home, it's really, really wonderful.
SPEAKER_00:Heaven.
SPEAKER_04:And it's just such a warm feeling for me, given like how I grew up. But we just haven't had a real tree, and they're so expensive.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. How much do they run now?
SPEAKER_04:So apparently there is a place in the city that you have to now reserve. Before you even go there, you can't even like pick it out. You have to like reserve it so you have a spot because the trees run out so fast. Wow. And it was like 150 bucks, 175 dollars, something like that. Wow. It's a lot of money. Totally. Plus the cost of the tree. Well, that is the cost of the tree. You're reserving, you're paying that, and that's like all in.
SPEAKER_05:It's like a down, it's like a little uh deposit. Deposit.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. How much is it? It's like a little donut. It's that too.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:But I did hear something though that said how fake trees are so bad for the environment. Oh, really? Yeah. Because they don't really de shit. So they're not like Josh's ears are gonna start bleeding. They're not like uh it's okay. We recycle, I think. Um you know that you can't like compost them or anything like that. Whereas a tree, they have all the drop-offs where they shred them and you know it's a tree. And it's a tree.
SPEAKER_05:So it's part of the earth, it's biodegradive. It's biodegradive. It is Mother Earth herself.
SPEAKER_04:So that's also what makes me think uh for me, is it unwise? Do I need to transition back to the real tree?
SPEAKER_05:Well, I have so many memories of like I mean, this could be straight out of a like a National Lampoons movie, but like, you know, my dad like swearing about getting it in the house and like it's noodles everywhere. My dog knocked one over one year, and it was just like water and branches. Oh, yeah. And once we got one that died before Christmas, the tree swindled by a place, yeah. So we then had to get rid of it. It was like shedding everywhere. We had to go get a new one.
SPEAKER_04:We had to take one year fishing line, fishing wire, and attach it to our tree and then anchor it to our piano because we couldn't get we couldn't get it to stand up straight. So shout out my parents, Steven and Deborah. Because we luckily we had a piano at the time and it had enough weight where we could not get it to, and I'm saying we, as if I was probably just standing there laughing. But I remember taking it, it might have actually been it might not have been fishing wire. It might have actually been, now that I think of it, like weed whacker wire.
SPEAKER_00:Oh my god.
SPEAKER_04:Like, and just continuous loop around and around to anchor it because it just wouldn't stand up. So, yeah, the tree, I mean, those stories are just fun. It's so it's like Chevy Chase movie.
SPEAKER_05:Oh my god. So that's wise they have those memories. Well, honestly, I'm thinking that now too, as a meta-narrative. Like, if you get this perfect fake tree, are your kids gonna have those stories where dad's swearing at himself, banging it against like the screen or you know, trying to get it in?
SPEAKER_04:And the lights are still obnoxious. If you have a tree that doesn't even if it's fake, putting the lights on are obnoxious. Now, your tree, it appears has the lights with it, which that's a story.
SPEAKER_05:It's born with lights, yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, it was born with lights.
SPEAKER_05:I know, and it's like, but there is something too, like it being like a whole thing to get the tree. Well, actually, my sister-in-law, her family, and now my brother does this because they're married and he's like married into this tradition, they go cut a tree down.
SPEAKER_04:They actually cut it down, yeah. Yeah, I think we did that one time. I think my family did that one time.
SPEAKER_05:That is dedication. Yeah, I think my and of course you have to pay for that too.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, my dad got out there, did it. Wow. I mean, uh yeah, the fake trees though, they're full every year.
SPEAKER_05:They're not it's like you just control all the variables, but it's like, what's the fun in that?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, that's true.
SPEAKER_05:But it's like for your sanity. I mean, I I think to myself, because Josh, you're Jewish and you really don't have these memories, like for your sake, we probably should at some point get a real tree.
SPEAKER_03:I'm so pro at this point. So pro real. I love a mess.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Well, you're so good at the pro-reel, right? I'm pro-Israel. Oh, right.
unknown:Josh.
SPEAKER_03:Well, and I'm pro-Palestine.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, good. Okay.
SPEAKER_03:We need to be able to talk about this. Totally, totally. What?
SPEAKER_05:In the middle of talking about Christmas.
SPEAKER_03:Let's talk about Christmas. Yeah. Well, so you're pro-Realtree. I mean here, here's a question, and I've decided it's wise.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:We've never, it's why I I'm not saying it's like unwise what we're doing now. We're getting our sea legs.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:We have a lot to figure out as a couple. We also have a small space. Yeah, that's true.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I'd have to be a small real space.
SPEAKER_04:You can't get small real. You can get realer trees. Realer. You can get faker and realer ones. No, but you can get smaller, real trees that are not as like like this size. You can get that size.
SPEAKER_03:We could totally get it. Just put it in the corner.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:I mean, you can, it's a tree. I mean, they come in all size.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. That's a good thing. They just stop letting them grow.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Just chop them down.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Does it ever just go smoothly?
SPEAKER_05:No. Because I think you gotta get it in the crank thing and stand it up.
SPEAKER_04:I mean, you gotta get it home.
SPEAKER_05:You gotta get it home. You gotta strap it to your car. Strap it to your car. You gotta get it from the cart upstairs. You gotta like crank this thing. You gotta water it every day.
SPEAKER_04:Because you basically basically putting screws into the trunk in order to get it to stay. So you gotta like screw them into the trunk.
SPEAKER_03:So scared. I mean, it makes building the table sound like a breeze. Yeah. No, I mean, I it's but that's where all the good stories are. It's very doable. Well, we'll film it. I'll be burping the whole time. Yeah, I'll post a video on Instagram. I just put posted a video on Instagram of me building this table. Um we got in our apartment burping the whole time, cussing myself out. I had three burps over the course of three and a half hours.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I'm gonna have clients seeing this video be like, that's your husband.
SPEAKER_03:Your cousin from Ireland said said power burping for the win. Oh my god. Couples who burp together stay together.
SPEAKER_02:It's like I don't want to censor your social media, but good God. Good God.
SPEAKER_04:I think I I think it is wise to have a real tree. I think it is, you know, I we usually fall in the middle somewhere, right? But yeah, I fake trees are very convenient, and you know, you don't have to go out, you don't have to do all the rigma roll with getting it in. And inevitably you think a tree's gonna fit in your house. It's like furniture, and then you get home and you're like, this doesn't fit. Like I it's too big. Where you know, you as much as you measure it, it's always a little bit too big. But the I I really envy nowadays people when they have a real tree and you go to their house and you smell it, and it just it's great.
SPEAKER_05:And you know, some people, some bougie people, do get them delivered and like installed. Oh, yeah, which is crazy. I mean, I think that kind of defeats the purpose.
SPEAKER_04:I think if we're going to You might as well have somebody decorate it then and take every tradition out of there.
SPEAKER_05:Um I think what we should do next year is go get one about this size and do the whole thing. And it's bringing in here. We should make a documentary about it. We should. Yes. I'm into that. Out here in the Christmas tree yard. We're called out here too. Christmas.
SPEAKER_04:Out here too, two Christmases. I want to see pictures of people's Christmas trees. I want people to send them to me.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I would love that. Please send.
SPEAKER_04:Real or fake.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. I mean, I think you can attach those files to my inquiry on my website.
SPEAKER_04:But you definitely can email them to John. You can email them to me, but's b utz. Jonathan at J.
SPEAKER_03:You can text the pod.com. Yeah, you can text the pod. You can text me, um, direct message to me if you've got my phone number already. Just send me a text.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, let us see your trees, especially if they're real, but also if they're not.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. Or if you even want to dig in the archives, maybe like an old picture of a tree. Yeah. Maybe some Christmas sweaters you're wearing, holiday, anything. Love it.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:So get out there. Get a real tree. Yeah. Get a fake one.
SPEAKER_05:Get a real tree. Get a fake one if you have to. We both did. That's all for tonight.
SPEAKER_02:Don't be sad, Kelly. We'll be back again. Call us. That was so sad. Yes. Call us. Text us. Send us pictures. John's our only friend.
SPEAKER_03:He lives under the bed.
SPEAKER_05:I live under the bed with the tree. So yeah, we don't get out much now that it's winter. I'm looking to connect. If you want to reach me, anyone wants to reach me, um, you can find me at kkpsychotherapy.com and send me an inquiry there. Um, you also can find me at my TikTok, at the podcast TikTok, wise mind h pod. Um, yeah, check out our clips and our posts on there. And how about you, John?
SPEAKER_04:You can email me at butzbutz. Jonathan at gmail.com.
SPEAKER_03:You can find me at joshbayerfilms.com. Bayer is in the aspirin, and half the clips on my reel are from movies that Lisa Klein has directed. So that's how you know it's really good.
SPEAKER_05:It's a shared reel. Well, thank you, everyone. We'll be with you next week. Bye.
SPEAKER_03:Bye. Thank you, Blanket Forts, for blanket forts.
SPEAKER_05:Thank you, Blanket Forts.
SPEAKER_03:Blanket Fort.
unknown:Bye.
SPEAKER_05:The Wisemind Happy Hour podcast is for entertainment purposes only, not to be treated as medical advice. If you are struggling with your mental health, please seek medical attention or counseling.