Our Wisest Purchases / Dining Experiences of 2025 🎄 + THE UNWELCOME GUEST 🎄

In this extra-special holiday episode, we discuss our wisest 2025 purchases and dining experiences...and explore potential holiday anxieties through the metaphor of the UNWELCOME GUEST (i.e. - Merv.)

- music by blanket forts - 

Transcript

New Studio Vibes And Warm-Up Banter

SPEAKER_06 0:04

Okay, welcome to the Wise Mind Happy Hour. I'm Kelly.

SPEAKER_03 0:08

And I'm John. Okay. We're back.

SPEAKER_06 0:10

Welcome, we're back.

SPEAKER_03 0:11

In studio. New microphone stands.

SPEAKER_06 0:14

Yeah, new microphone stands. We're sitting at a table now.

SPEAKER_03 0:17

It feels a little formal. I like it.

SPEAKER_06 0:20

Yeah, I kind of like it too.

SPEAKER_03 0:21

It's like a this is like a round table discussion.

SPEAKER_06 0:24

Yeah, it does feel very official.

SPEAKER_03 0:27

Like we could be on PBS or something.

SPEAKER_06 0:29

Yeah. But isn't that crazy how like I do think like even your posture can like influence like the way you have a conversation.

SPEAKER_03 0:38

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 0:38

Like, like last week I was kind of in like a rancid mood. I don't even know if I mentioned that on the pod. And I was like sitting in a more like slouched position. Yeah. And I honestly was like, I weirdly like feel more relaxed because I like hate everything.

SPEAKER_03 0:52

Well, it'll also be interesting if having better posture will stop your yawning during the podcast. But if that remains to be seen.

SPEAKER_06 1:00

I don't think it will remains to be seen. I yawn like every day with every client. It's like I have a disease.

SPEAKER_03 1:09

Like I just doesn't that mean like a lack of oxygen or something?

SPEAKER_06 1:13

Is that what that is? To the brain? Or maybe it actually means I'm not getting like proper posture to my lungs.

SPEAKER_03 1:18

Deep breaths. But I feel like the table and the mic stand, I feel like we're high society now.

SPEAKER_06 1:23

Yeah. Well, we're definitely high society.

SPEAKER_03 1:25

We're very serious pod makers.

SPEAKER_06 1:28

Yeah, we are. This is official.

Private-Room Karaoke Adventures

SPEAKER_03 1:30

I did uh I we're probably gonna catch up, so I'm just gonna start it right off. Yeah, do it karaoke on Friday. You did karaoke. Did it? Oh my god, tell us bangers. Um it was a work function. Work karaoke holiday party. No have you ever been to Lincoln? Have you been to Lincoln karaoke? You would pass it multiple times and never even know it's there. Okay. There's like a very, very subdued sign edge. Okay. And you basically walk down this long hallway, and there's all of these rooms with just numbers on them. Oh, bright. And so you get your own room, uh, which was dynamite to have. And I haven't done karaoke in so long. You know how you used to do karaoke and there was like the song book?

SPEAKER_00 2:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:21

And then you have to like pop in a number and then your song or whatever. Yeah. This karaoke is attached to YouTube. So any song that's on YouTube, it converts it into a karaoke song.

SPEAKER_06 2:31

Oh my, so it's literally like a sort of thing.

SPEAKER_03 2:32

So you could have the yeah, you could have the music video playing while you're doing it, or yeah, it was great.

SPEAKER_04 2:37

Wow, what did you do?

SPEAKER_03 2:39

I did a few songs. Um the first song I did was uh You only get what you give, new radicals.

SPEAKER_05 2:48

Oh, you only get what you give.

SPEAKER_03 2:51

Yeah, okay. Um, except my version was better, but yeah, uh somebody I had mentioned the song Linger by the Cranberries once in a absolute banger in a team meeting, and so people wanted me to do that. So I did that. But the nice thing about it is there's four mics in the room, and so people are just kind of passing them around. So every song is kind of like a sing-along.

SPEAKER_06 3:13

That's fun.

SPEAKER_03 3:14

Um Phil Collins, Phil Collins Studio, yeah, and uh creep, radiohead. I love that song, and then everything else was kind of sing-along. Somebody wanted to do a Interpol song and nobody else really knew it. So I I took one of the mics and and we did that. Interpol. Which song? Evil? Um, how does that one go? Rosemary.

SPEAKER_04 3:42

Yeah, oh, that's it.

SPEAKER_03 3:45

Totally. That's what we did.

SPEAKER_04 3:47

Incredible. Oh my god, I want to go to this.

SPEAKER_03 3:50

It's a cool place.

SPEAKER_04 3:51

We should go.

SPEAKER_03 3:51

Should I so you just leave the room, you go back into the hallway, there's like a bar there, you can get drinks, and then you just bring them into your room.

SPEAKER_04 3:58

I love that.

SPEAKER_03 3:59

And they just have a simple bar. Bring them into your room. Bring them into your room with the couches all around.

SPEAKER_04 4:04

Uh we could have had a Christmas party, I'm realizing, for our team. Maybe next year.

SPEAKER_02 4:09

Next year. Our team right here, the freehouse. Lincoln karaoke. Sweet team.

SPEAKER_06 4:14

Yeah. I guess actually the Hanukkah party maybe is our holiday party. For sure. Yeah. So we are having one.

SPEAKER_02 4:19

We could go to karaoke.

SPEAKER_06 4:22

What?

SPEAKER_02 4:22

After.

SPEAKER_06 4:23

Yeah, totally. Yeah, because John's kids go to bed around 2 a.m.

SPEAKER_03 4:27

Totally. Well, everybody went out after that, and I was like, see ya. Going to sleep. And the night was just starting for certain people, which good for them. Good for them. Live your best life. I used to do it. I can't do it anymore. I don't want to do it anymore. Um, but the karaoke was fun.

SPEAKER_06 4:43

That's so fun.

SPEAKER_03 4:44

Right? I really love that idea. And I'm usually not a fan of karaoke. This was a really good time.

SPEAKER_06 4:49

Yeah, honestly, like it it freaks me out a bit. But that sounds very doable.

SPEAKER_03 4:54

It's so low stakes because of the multiple mics, and there's no, you don't have to get up.

SPEAKER_06 4:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:59

You're just sitting there.

SPEAKER_06 5:00

You're just sitting there.

Jumbotron Fame And Empty-Arena Joy

SPEAKER_03 5:02

Yeah. So that was my front. I had to start with that because I usually come in and say I'm not doing anything fun. Yeah, but that's amazing. And then Sunday we ended up getting some free tickets to go to the DePaul women's basketball game. Fun time. Nobody was there. Oh. I know. That's um, they're not that good. Oh, the stadium's really cool though, and this is the second time I've been to a DePaul game where you know how they drop t-shirts down with parachutes? Like it's like for the fans. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I got one.

SPEAKER_04 5:33

Wow, because I know.

SPEAKER_03 5:34

And then they put me on the jumbotron.

unknown 5:36

No.

SPEAKER_03 5:37

And I was hoping that it would turn into a like a viral clip of like my kids trying to get the shirt from me and me refusing. You know how like somebody gets a baseball at a baseball game and they're like, this guy, and it's like on Good Morning America, father steals ball from kid or something like that. I was I was kind of hoping that there'd be like this viral clip of that happening. But um, somebody that was there took a picture. There's me on the jumping rod. Do you have to send that to Josh so I can post it? And there's these kids just looking at me like, I want that shirt. Wouldn't have mattered. The same thing happened. This happened to me one other time. I have two of these shirts, they're like double XL. Oh, it's like what kid's gonna have that anyway?

SPEAKER_06 6:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:16

So those are my highlights from that.

SPEAKER_06 6:17

I love that.

SPEAKER_04 6:18

What a fun weekend!

SPEAKER_03 6:19

Let me send this to you, Josh, right now. Yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_04 6:22

That's so fun.

SPEAKER_03 6:23

Me and the Jumbotron.

SPEAKER_04 6:24

Yeah, just you. And there's like no one around you. There was nobody at the game.

SPEAKER_03 6:30

It was we got there, and people are like, Well, where, you know, where do we sit? I was like, Literally anywhere. Anywhere you can sit on the court, and you can be on the sideline. There was nobody there. And sometimes these, yeah, they, you know, it's a cool facility, and the games we've been to have been a lot of fun. Not the most well-attended games, but sometimes that's fun. You can just move about the stadium. My kids got to see the mascot and hang out with him for a while, or them. I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 7:00

There's that few people you can kind of just get.

SPEAKER_03 7:02

They were actually, it was so not attended. I've never seen this before. This kid, because it was it was a little bit of a school event, and that's how you could get the free tickets. Some kid that went to my, you know, Shane and Wes's school was like walking by us, and they had a huge, what looked like garbage bag full of popcorn. They had overbought or made the popcorn, and all of a sudden, towards the end of the game, like four minutes left in the fourth quarter, all you see are these little kids carrying these huge bags. They're giving them away.

SPEAKER_04 7:32

That's incredible.

SPEAKER_03 7:33

That's my dream. It was just little kids with bags of popcorn the size of them walking around the stadium. I love popcorn. So you looked around at the end of the game, and there were just all these vacant seats, and then a little section with kids and huge base popcorn. Wow. So if you're looking for a good time, go to DePaul basketball win trust arena.

SPEAKER_06 7:55

That's a good that's a good activity for us to take someone in town who's like kind of a sporto.

SPEAKER_03 8:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 8:01

You know, like we could easily get tickets.

SPEAKER_03 8:03

You can easily get tickets. The venue is small, but not too small. And, you know, it's affordable, which is hard nowadays to find affordable, especially sporting.

SPEAKER_06 8:14

I know even bad Chicago teams.

SPEAKER_03 8:15

It's like general or tickets, it's crazy.

Kids, Cold Weather, And Cozy Movies

SPEAKER_06 8:18

That reminds me of in college when I went to Washiu, it was like, you know, division three sports. So it's like Oh, yeah, that's what my college is. You know, like Josh went to Michigan. It's like the the games, the tickets are, I'm sure, like a whole thing.

SPEAKER_02 8:31

The leaders in the best.

SPEAKER_06 8:32

Right. And you probably have to like subscribe in this like really complicated way to the tickets or whatever. You get a not a subscribe, but like get a you have to subscribe. Yeah, like a lottery.

SPEAKER_03 8:43

And then they mail them to you.

SPEAKER_06 8:44

And yeah, you have to be like a ticket. I mean, at Waxi, if someone wanted to go to the football game, it's like, well, let's just stroll down there, you know, just like sit in the bleachers.

SPEAKER_03 8:53

Like, I mean, at my school, people avoided the sports. Yeah. I don't know when it's like. It was kind of like do something else.

SPEAKER_06 9:00

Totally. Basketball we would go to, but same thing. Like, you kind of just go.

SPEAKER_03 9:04

Yeah. You didn't have to have like kill a couple hours. You kind of plan your day around what you're gonna do after that event.

SPEAKER_06 9:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:10

At D3 schools.

SPEAKER_06 9:12

Right, exactly. It's and like the sports team would be like at the big party that night.

SPEAKER_07 9:17

Right.

SPEAKER_06 9:17

Like it wasn't, they weren't like celebs. They were like, as much as like high school sports people would be celebs.

SPEAKER_07 9:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 9:23

It was like to that level. So yeah, but that's a I mean, that's a great idea. I'm gonna, I'm gonna mark that in my head. Mark it to bring someone, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:31

Some sporto.

SPEAKER_06 9:32

Yeah, some sporto.

SPEAKER_03 9:33

Find a random sporto.

SPEAKER_06 9:35

I mean, honestly, my niece Circia really loves sports. She would love to see women's sports. That would be great. And I'm really trying to get her to come to Chicago on a solo trip. And I was telling her about this. I like every time I see her, I tell her about this, and I'm like inching her closer to her.

SPEAKER_03 9:49

And she is how old again?

SPEAKER_06 9:50

She's five. And I want her to come alone, so it's kind of like a special, and she does like special time just with me, which I really am loving. I'm loving how much she likes special time with me. How would she get here? So we would meet halfway. Nice, which would be great. But I told her, I was telling her this story. She loves if I like scratch her scalp with my fingers. Like she really likes like if you scratch your back, if you scratch your scalp, like she just like it's her favorite thing. And I was like, they have these spas. I don't know if you know this. They have I've seen them on TikTok. They have these spas in Chicago where for like a whole hour they like massage your scalp with like water and soap oils and whatever. And I mean, incredible. It looks incredible. And I was like telling her about this. I was like, we could go together, like maybe they would do like both of us at the same time. And she just goes, Maybe I could go first. I was like, sure. Sure. So cute. And then we were like talking about it, and I was like going way into detail, and she was kind of like mesmerized. And all of a sudden I like stopped and she goes, Can we keep talking about this? And I was like, Yeah. And she's like, Is like there anything more to say about it? And I think she was liking just having like an adult conversation, just her and me about like things like that. So she just wanted to see if I could mine any other material. And I said to Josh afterward, I was like, This is why I have a podcast because like I could go on this for hours. Hours. Like I could just keep talking. We could spend a whole weekend talking about stuff like this. It was so cute. She's like, Can we keep talking about this?

SPEAKER_03 11:18

Yeah, can we just keep going?

SPEAKER_06 11:19

Is there anything else to say about it?

SPEAKER_03 11:22

Well, she was probably also enjoying the thought of it and the moment and the idea of it and yeah, all the good feels. Totally.

SPEAKER_06 11:30

Yeah. Yeah. We're like, I mean, this is not gonna win me any like fans or anything, but like my nieces are at this place right now where they really love me and it feels so good. That's great. They just like because there's years where like they want to be more around their parents, or they're like interested in me and Josh a little bit. They're like, I got there and I couldn't see my one niece because she was going to pick up the food with my sister-in-law, and she's sobbing that she didn't get to see me. Like sobbing, like I didn't get to see Kelly. And I was like, I've never had a kid do that in my life. I was like, wow, it's like such an interesting responsibility, even to have her be like so. And I'm like, you know what? If like for some reason I couldn't have a kid, I mean, this would this would be really helpful.

SPEAKER_03 12:16

Yeah, I mean, aunt and uncle is special territory.

SPEAKER_06 12:18

Yeah, yeah, you have an aunt and uncle, your two aunt and uncle, your aunt and uncle couple that you mentioned on the super close, just so fun. Yeah.

Movie Talk: Little Women To Blade Runner

SPEAKER_03 12:27

That relationship is so special. The aunt and uncle one. Yeah. You know, and it can be you just get away with more as the aunt and that. You get they get away with so much. I I mean I'm like, It's like the parents are the house, you all are like the Xbox. Right. You know, like they gotta take care of all the needs and everything like that. Yeah, you do the fall, can just do the all the fun stuff. I mean, you still have to, you know, parent in certain ways, but yeah. A lot more free reign.

SPEAKER_06 12:58

Totally. And like really at the end of the day, I can be like, hey, to my brother, like this happened. Yeah, and have him kind of step in.

SPEAKER_03 13:07

Take care of it.

SPEAKER_06 13:08

Take care of this.

SPEAKER_03 13:09

I'm not touching it.

SPEAKER_06 13:10

Yeah. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:11

Totally. What did you guys do this past weekend? So we went to Cleveland, that's what we were there. That's what you're there for.

SPEAKER_06 13:16

We were there for like a mini. We do this like on the years that my brother and his family don't come for Christmas. We do like a pre-Christmas. So it was almost like a practice Christmas. Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. We have never been to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Like we never go when we're in Cleveland. One time we'll do it. We we mostly do kids stuff.

SPEAKER_03 13:36

Yeah. That's what you do.

SPEAKER_06 13:38

No, yeah. Although we took them to like a really nice restaurant that was so good. And they were okay. That was the first time they really didn't like melt, melt down by the end. You know, it's like they're like, I don't know if your kids were like this or are like this, kind of like turn into a pumpkin sort of like yeah, going out to eat's tough. Like the end of the meal, they're just kind of like, can we get out of the way? They're bored. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:03

They either ate so fast or they didn't like what they ordered, so then they're just sitting there hungry.

SPEAKER_06 14:08

Yeah, it was pretty cold. This weekend it was so cold.

SPEAKER_03 14:11

It was freezing.

SPEAKER_06 14:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:12

This weekend.

SPEAKER_06 14:13

So that was tough. And they don't really notice the cold. Kids? No. Yeah, these kids. I know. Not at all. I'm like worried.

SPEAKER_03 14:22

My kids would be wearing shorts if they could.

SPEAKER_06 14:24

Yeah, yeah. Your kids always wear shorts.

SPEAKER_03 14:26

Always want to be in shorts.

SPEAKER_06 14:27

So they step outside in 20 degree weather and it doesn't bother them.

SPEAKER_03 14:32

I wouldn't say that. I just don't think it's thought out. It's like you could tell them till they're blue and I mean I think they do run warm. And I was like that as a kid too. I think your threshold for that stuff is you're just better able to, I don't know, withstand it. Yeah. But once they get outside and they're there for a little bit, they realize it. Yeah. It's like, oh, I need to put something on. Yeah. But still, sometimes I'll pick them up and they're on their school turf in a sweatshirt, and it's like, what are you doing? It's like, what are you doing?

SPEAKER_06 15:07

A coat on. Yeah. Yeah. You know, one thing we did once the kids went to sleep one night, we watched Little Women.

SPEAKER_03 15:15

Have you seen it? I mean, a long time ago.

SPEAKER_06 15:17

I mean, the one, the recent one. Oh, no.

SPEAKER_03 15:19

The Gretaguraway one. Sorry.

SPEAKER_06 15:21

That movie is so good. Is it? It is so good. Don't you think? I love it. It's literally, I mean, it's like, first of all, I like try not to fall in love with Sear Sharon and as um Joe March. I mean, I like I dare you to not fall in love with. She's incredible in it. And it's just like so like the shots are so like beautiful. And and Timothy Chalamet's great in it. Florence Pugh's in it. Laura Dern plays Marmy the mom. Laura Dern. She's incredible. Tracy Letz is in it. It's so good. It's very fast-paced. And like the actresses like talk over each other in a way that feels very like realistic to siblings. Yeah. Especially like a house full of siblings. It's really funny. It's just so, I mean, it's like, I honestly think I could cry start to finish just by how moving it is. Wow. And you know, Greta Gerwig directed it. It's like she just her special touch is so good on it.

SPEAKER_03 16:27

Is Laura Dern's worst movie Jurassic Park? Oh, I mean, I love her in Jurassic Park. She's great in everything. I feel like that's her worst role.

SPEAKER_06 16:35

She is a one-of-a-kind actress. That's her worst role, probably. I mean, it might be. Although there might be some. I'm not saying she's bad in there at all. Let's see. I mean, there's gotta be one that's worse than that. Because that movie's so great. That movie is great. Like, do you ever have that with movies? Like, it's not even that they're sad, it's like they're so moving, they like bring you to tears.

SPEAKER_03 16:54

Sometimes, yeah. Okay, let's see here I am, DB. For some reason, the first movie that came to mind, though it is sad in ways, but it I felt like it was very moving. And you know, there's certainly some magical realism. You gotta suspend disbelief a little bit. Uh Lars and the Real Girl.

SPEAKER_06 17:13

I love that movie. So do I. Oh, yeah. I could kind of cry the whole movie too. It's just, yeah. Because you feel for him.

SPEAKER_03 17:21

You do feel for him so much. And it's almost maybe it's the field that we're in. It's almost believable. Totally. You know, almost believable.

SPEAKER_06 17:29

Yeah. Oh yeah. Taking like fantasy to that. Have you ever seen it?

SPEAKER_02 17:33

I I re I did see it. I f I remember like being really excited and then being a little disappointed, but I don't remember it. Really? But I could be wrong. And maybe I'm yeah.

SPEAKER_06 17:42

You said that about drive. Is it a Ryan Gosling thing?

SPEAKER_02 17:44

I love Drive. Maybe it's a Ryan Gossling thing.

SPEAKER_06 17:46

I converted him on Drive.

SPEAKER_02 17:47

I love Drive.

SPEAKER_06 17:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:48

Maybe I was like anti-gosling for a second. That's alright.

SPEAKER_06 17:51

I was like, you know, foaming at the mouth talking about Drive, and he like was like, maybe I gotta give it a rewatch.

SPEAKER_02 17:57

Oh, Jay Kelly. Laura Durham, Jay Kelly. We watched okay, that's her worst movie. Okay.

SPEAKER_06 18:03

I mean, I think people are liking this movie. I could not stand it. It's the new Noah Bombak. Okay. With George Clooney. Have you seen any trailers?

SPEAKER_03 18:11

Is Adam Sandler in that movie? Yeah. Okay. I haven't seen any trailers. I've read about it. It's not worth a watch.

SPEAKER_06 18:16

I mean, I thought it was god awful, but I really don't like George Clooney. I really don't like him.

SPEAKER_03 18:22

Okay. It was the Badman that turned you off.

SPEAKER_06 18:24

I just think he's a big phony. I'm so mean.

SPEAKER_03 18:30

He's more phony than other Hollywood people.

SPEAKER_06 18:34

I have not even heard any negative discourse on him. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03 18:37

You just think he's phony.

Holiday Segment: Best Purchases Of The Year

SPEAKER_06 18:38

I just think he's full of it. Okay. Well, he gave this interview, I've already told Josh about this. I'll restrain myself on how negative I am with this, but he gave this interview about how he and his wife have never had a fight. And it really bothered me.

SPEAKER_03 18:54

Yeah, because there's a version of that word that's really problematic that Incredibly problematic.

SPEAKER_06 19:00

Like you either you clearly, it's like either you run the household as a dictator or you never see your family.

SPEAKER_03 19:08

Or you all are so people pleasy and can't you don't reveal yourselves. You don't, you're not vulnerable about your true kind of like feelings and stuff like that. Yeah. I mean, that's not believable.

SPEAKER_06 19:20

And he was like making all these jokes about it, and I was like, why don't you just be honest for a second?

SPEAKER_03 19:24

I don't know.

SPEAKER_06 19:25

But you know, it's like some of his contemporaries, like they're not like I mean, I'm of course I'm thinking of the women, but like Julia Roberts, like, I'm obsessed with her. I think she's so magnetic and I love her. And like, I don't feel like she's phony. I really don't like Well Brad Pitts had a lot of yeah issues and totally. Yeah, I don't think, bless you, I don't think he's so phony.

SPEAKER_03 19:49

And he's I mean, they're like pals, right?

SPEAKER_06 19:52

Right.

SPEAKER_03 19:52

I don't think he's as old as Clooney, but they're they're friends.

SPEAKER_06 19:55

They're friends, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:56

After the oceans movies. Do you not like him in the oceans movies?

SPEAKER_06 20:00

I do like him in those. Sometimes I like him in movies. Sometimes I don't really like him. Yeah. Yeah. That's fair. I also like long time ago read. Do you did you ever read those New Yorker profiles they would do that were like pretty intense and like often not that flattering? No. God, they stopped doing them and man, they were like one of a kind. There was one on Alec Baldwin way before he had all this trouble that he's having now that was like really insightful into all that. Like it was pretty almost like tragic. And the George Clooney one like kind of painted him as like pretty vain. And it was interesting. The Taylor Swift one was actually really not that flattering either. But it was interesting. Um scathing. Scathing. I mean, it was like they would write these long long profiles. And I had to do that. That's probably why I didn't write them. Yeah. I had a super boring job at the time that was just like between college and grad school, and I would just read these New York.

SPEAKER_03 20:55

Doesn't The New Yorker come out every week?

SPEAKER_06 20:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:58

So hard to keep up with. I think I had a subscription, and all it turned into was piles of magazines next to my bed.

SPEAKER_06 21:03

Recycling.

SPEAKER_03 21:04

I could not keep up with that at all. I like the idea of the New Yorker.

SPEAKER_06 21:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:08

I think a lot of people have traded in for like digital subscriptions. Well, and every week. Do you have to print them every week?

SPEAKER_06 21:17

Yeah. Yeah, really. Like, I wonder if they've cut that down at all. I don't think they have. They probably haven't. I mean, people still subscribe. It was just like the hundredth anniversary or something.

SPEAKER_03 21:27

It'd be sweet if you could sign up for and maybe they have this, or you could get one every other week.

unknown 21:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:32

Or even just a monthly one. Just give me the best one out of the net. Yeah. Out of the last four weeks, you choose what you think was the best one and send it to me. Yeah. I don't care. I'll trust your judgment. You got three others in the hopper? That's fine.

SPEAKER_06 21:45

You know, now I want to re-watch Lars and the Real Girl. I you know what I remember so much from that movie. Yeah. You know Paul Schneider, the brother? Yeah. Who is like he's great in that? I think he is my celebrity crush. He's great in that. He's so dreamy. But he right when he like right after he they he introduces them to the doll and he's like alone with his wife, he's like, so he's crazy. He's crazy. Yes. And he he's just like, I mean, right? And she's like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 22:10

Like they're the wife is so loving. Yeah. In that movie. Love the psychiatrist. Who was I I can't remember her name, but the brother takes him to the psychiatrist. Or, you know, it's a small town in Wisconsin, I think. It's so I don't even know if she's a psychiatrist or just kind of a general practitioner. But oh, Patricia Clarkson? Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 22:31

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 22:32

They get like a diagnosis, and the brother's like, fine. Like everyone's gonna laugh at him. And the doctor just looks at him and goes, and you too. Like you're gonna, yeah, you're gonna have to like do this with him. You know, like to make him like you're gonna have to go through all of this with him. And and it's not they're not they're gonna laugh at you, you know, that type of thing. But I really like the idea of the community in that movie coming and rallying around him.

SPEAKER_06 22:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:56

So it's a great movie.

SPEAKER_06 22:57

He did some really great movies once upon a time.

SPEAKER_03 23:00

Gosling?

SPEAKER_06 23:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:02

Oh, so good. I feel like now he kind of just doesn't really just. Did you see that movie where he was the stunt guy? Drive? Is that the movie?

SPEAKER_04 23:10

Is that he like did a spoof of drive, I think.

SPEAKER_03 23:17

Yeah, well, he yeah, I think it's called the stunt guy.

SPEAKER_06 23:19

Yeah, literally stunt man or stunt guy. Whatever, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:22

And he falls in love with like a director or the other or something like that.

SPEAKER_06 23:26

Emily Blunt, I think, is in that.

SPEAKER_03 23:28

Yeah, yeah. Apparently you guys didn't see that.

SPEAKER_06 23:31

No, but I heard people liked it. I mean, I took one look at it and was like, No thanks. I'm like such a hater. I really am such a hater.

Kitchen Joy: Stock Pots And Simple Pasta Tricks

SPEAKER_03 23:41

He was in the uh Blade Runner sequel. That was a pretty good movie.

SPEAKER_06 23:45

You liked that?

SPEAKER_03 23:46

I thought it was good.

SPEAKER_06 23:47

I thought the whole movie they were just like walking through like these like little areas, like that was like three-quarters of the movie. It was just kind of him being like walking through there wasn't a lot of dialogue or even like interaction.

SPEAKER_03 24:01

I mean, maybe Drive was like that a little bit too.

SPEAKER_06 24:04

But okay, that's a great point because somehow Drive turned no dialogue into like so much like visceral feeling. Plus, it has Oscar Isaac. And Blade Runner was kind of just them being like Oscar, what's his what's his face? Oscar Isaac.

SPEAKER_04 24:19

That was the first time I got my eyes on that guy.

SPEAKER_03 24:22

He's a great one. It's just turning into a movie podcast.

SPEAKER_04 24:24

No, no, we just have a movie podcast.

SPEAKER_03 24:26

So watch out uh how did this get made? Yeah. What's the serious one that he does? Not really serious, but Paul Shear does the one where he watches his good movie podcast. Like real something.

SPEAKER_06 24:38

It's like a hundred no, no, there's not a number in it. It's like spooled, unspooled. Unspooled. Yeah. I heard Jason Manzuka's once on another podcast where he's like, sometimes Paul will forget that he's on our bad movie podcast and try to talk about a good movie from his good movie podcast. That's so funny. Okay, well, maybe we want to shift into our sort of like holiday little segment here. Because we're getting toward the end of the year.

SPEAKER_03 25:07

It's beginning to look a lot like Christmas.

SPEAKER_01 25:14

Do you know those songs, Josh? Rosemary. Um, do you know any Christmas songs? It's beginning to look a lot like Christmas.

SPEAKER_06 25:24

Well, yeah, my sister-in-law was playing. Shout out, was playing a ton of Christmas music this weekend. Yeah. So you heard a bunch.

SPEAKER_01 25:30

Yeah, I've I'm I've lived in the world. You've lived in it. Silent. There you go. Yeah. Close. Yeah. Be with me on this Christmas night.

SPEAKER_04 25:46

That's all it is. That's exactly it. That's exactly right.

SPEAKER_03 25:51

Um, but it is the holidays, so our segment, our holiday segment is what is it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 25:56

Well, we're kind of leaning into the commercialism of it all, which is like we're I'm so ambivalent about John. Yeah, you're not the most capitalist person either. But I figured, because I heard a lot of people, you know, doing these gift guides at the end of the year and talking about things they bought. Just like some of our favorite things we acquired in 2025, whether you bought it or were gifted it, or even if you gifted it to someone else, like the most useful like items you really treasure. So does any come to mind?

SPEAKER_03 26:26

Yeah, well, one of them comes to mind, Sarah and the boys got me a lamp for it's like a reading lamp, but it attaches on a hook. It almost looks like an octopus, but it only has one leg. It's got this long neck, and then it's like this dome. It attaches on the end of your bed, like on your headboard.

SPEAKER_07 26:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:48

And you can move it in any direction. And it's got like two different settings for brightness, um, with the little clicker right next to you. So it's perfect for me because I read pretty much every night in bed before I go to bed. And what? I said brag. Brag. I'm a learned reader. Uh, and I don't have a TV in my room. So um, so not only is it great because it doesn't, you know, I do have a book light that attaches to a book, but sometimes that gets annoying. Yeah. And so this is great.

SPEAKER_06 27:21

Yeah, how does that work with turning the pages?

SPEAKER_03 27:23

It's hands-free. Well, usually the one that I have, it usually you just put the clip on the back of the book.

SPEAKER_06 27:27

Oh, where the pages are already turned.

SPEAKER_03 27:30

So um, but this one also has a great feature where you can change it into five different colors. So you could put it in blue, red, green, pink. It's like really cool. That's really cool. I know.

Frugality, Budgets, And Game Nights

SPEAKER_06 27:43

Does certain color lights like foster certain like brain waves or no?

SPEAKER_03 27:49

I don't probably. Yeah. I don't know. But sometimes it's just nice, nice to not have it so intensely like white. Yeah. And it is a softer white, it's not like fluorescent or anything, but it is nice. I mean, some of the colors, like the blue is kind of really hard to see. It's pretty dark, still really nice. But even if you're just like watching a movie in bed on your phone or something like that, you could have one of the nice like different colors on. So that was one when you had mentioned this would be the segment, that was definitely one thing that stood out. That was a great gift.

SPEAKER_05 28:21

I love that. That's it.

SPEAKER_03 28:21

And anybody that sees it, like when we've had family over and they've stayed or whatever, is like, where'd you get that? And I'm like, I actually don't know. Sarah got his great gift, though. Oh yeah. What sticks out to you?

SPEAKER_06 28:32

I mean, maybe the biggest thing that's like changed our lives the most is our new car. We bought a car in 2025. We bought a Toyota Rav 4, which I I mean, I feel like I'll be buried in a Toyota Rav 4. I love them so much. I had a Rav 4, a 2006 RAD for Rav 4 for so many years. Basically, traded that in for almost nothing.

SPEAKER_03 28:55

They gave us a little bit of money, and then and then and you could relive this story in in real time almost by going back in our episode. Yes, when I eventually when you didn't even have you all didn't have it, and then it was like a saga.

SPEAKER_06 29:09

Oh my, oh yes, that's right. We talked about this on the pod. I totally forgot.

SPEAKER_03 29:14

Which is great because now we've come through that. Now we've made it. Because if I did anything, I'm like, we've come through that.

SPEAKER_06 29:20

Oh my god, that is such a good reminder, especially right now, because I am wrestling so hard with the internet in this apartment and my new phone. Trying to remember my Apple ID and get back into my Apple ID. I can't even get it. It's so upsetting. I can't even talk about it. But it's like I I keep having these really distorted thoughts, like, I'm never gonna get through this. Like, I'm never gonna transfer my old phone info to my new phone and be able to use it. It's like I felt that way about the car. I was like, we're never going to get it.

SPEAKER_03 29:54

There were a bunch of delays with that thing. Totally.

SPEAKER_06 29:56

I was like, we'll never have the right paperwork to seal the deal. Like every time we go, there'll be some other mysterious paper we didn't bring. Or fucking, you know, like type of whatever identification. Like it was so annoying. And then we did get it. And it's been great. It's a hybrid, which is so nice for like the long driving we do to visit my brother and visit Josh's family in Michigan. I love it. Do you love it?

SPEAKER_02 30:27

It's great mileage. It's great mileage. So comfy.

SPEAKER_06 30:31

It's so comfy in there.

SPEAKER_02 30:33

Heated seats. Heated seats.

SPEAKER_06 30:35

Heated steering wheel.

SPEAKER_03 30:36

It's great.

SPEAKER_06 30:37

It's incredible. The seats actually kind of get so hot they get too hot.

SPEAKER_03 30:41

Yeah. Oh, you the high I don't know. My car has three levels of heat. You can only be on three for so long. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 30:48

It's like if you had bad back pain, maybe that would help. Even that though, you need it in moderation. I once burned myself with a heating pad by sleeping on it with just under my shoulders. It didn't have an automatic. Oh. It was like a one that's like contraband now. I'm sure it's like start a hundred. Third fiery burns.

SPEAKER_03 31:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 31:10

I remember I asked my sister-in-law once if she had ever slept on the heating pad when she was in pain, like in front of my brother, and he's like, I'm sorry, you sleep on your heating pad.

SPEAKER_07 31:17

I was like, no.

SPEAKER_06 31:20

So rewind. I got that. Forget I said that. Um, but yeah, that's a big one. Another one that isn't really pretty recent. So I'm like afraid this is recency bias, but we got an all for our wedding, we got an all-clad 12-quart stock pot. Yeah, that's great. How I lived before this thing. It it's like I you know, something I love to do is the dark ages. I literally am like, how the fuck did I put together a meal?

SPEAKER_04 31:51

I'm surprised I ate.

SPEAKER_06 31:52

I'm surprised I ate I had any friends not having this thing. But it's like, what I'll do is I'll I'll boil like a big was there a noise?

SPEAKER_03 32:03

No, it's right there.

SPEAKER_06 32:04

Oh yeah. Well, that one, no.

SPEAKER_03 32:05

Oh, that's not it.

SPEAKER_06 32:07

So add six quartz to that. Or no. That's bad math.

unknown 32:12

Four.

SPEAKER_03 32:14

I wasn't gonna say anything. I'm just going along with it. People will write in on that one. Don't worry.

SPEAKER_04 32:18

Yeah, next someone will get me like some kind of book on me.

SPEAKER_03 32:21

Yeah, your next gift will be a calculator.

SPEAKER_06 32:25

I mean, it's really huge. Oh, yeah, that's great. It's amazing. And what's nice, I this new thing that I love to do.

SPEAKER_03 32:31

Yeah, you can just put a whole chicken in there and make your.

SPEAKER_06 32:34

Literally, you can put a whole chicken in there. There it is. You can what I'll do, and I heard this from I think Bone Appetite, Carla Lolly Music. Maybe not Bone Appetite, maybe just her own stuff. She what she does is she puts a bunch of water in here to boil pasta. And then halfway through the cook time of the pasta, just add a ton of some green. I usually do kale into the pasta water. So it's like healthy, it's being boiled, you're not frying it, and not, I mean, you can fry it too, but it's like you get to use a little less oil, toss it together with some sauce, whatever kind of sauce, even just like garlic, cheese, kale, pot. I mean, it's like it saves our lives. It's incredible.

SPEAKER_03 33:22

Great gift.

SPEAKER_06 33:22

So I think this is worth every penny.

SPEAKER_03 33:25

That's a great gift.

Game Cafés, Costs, And Alternatives

SPEAKER_06 33:26

I love it.

SPEAKER_03 33:27

That's amazing. One thing I did gift someone that I got rave reviews was a blanket that I got Sarah. Now, there's a running joke in the family and my relationship with Sarah that I I've purchased for her many of blankets. And she loves a blanket. Love a blanket. And so we have so many at our house, and she used to name them and continues to name them. And so all of them had, they actually made the vows. Um, the some of the blanket names at the time when I was writing my vows, I said, you know, we'll always be together in this and that, and you know, I'll love you no matter. And then I listed off all these names of blankets. And everybody knew about this.

SPEAKER_04 34:07

Yeah, no matter who gets in the way, like this blanket, and this one, and lighty and heaty and all the, you know, whatever.

SPEAKER_03 34:15

Um, so I've really been off getting her blanket. We just have so many. Yeah. And then she had sent me a text a while ago, and she was like, Oh, check out this blanket, it looks really cool. And this was like in this was like in April or something like that.

SPEAKER_04 34:31

It looks like me being like, I need a coat and I'm six thousand.

SPEAKER_03 34:34

Well, I put a pin in it because I was I immediately was just gonna buy it for her. Yeah. Because I I think we were in an airport and we were just in two different sections. I think maybe we were like, I was taking the kids through security or something like that. And you know, she was like, Oh, check this out. And then I said, Well, what color do you like? And she was like, Don't buy it for me. She was like, I just think it's cute. I was like, all right. Um, because I would have just purchased it for because I was like, Oh, this is great. She hasn't I haven't bought her one in a while. So I put a pin in that, and then um, I don't know, six, seven months later, her birthday came and I ordered it for her. They still had it, and she got it and she was like so touched that I remembered, but then it also turned into like a great blanket, and she's just like, I just love it, it's so warm.

SPEAKER_06 35:15

Um, what's its name?

SPEAKER_03 35:17

Bubbles.

SPEAKER_06 35:18

Bubbles, why bubbles?

SPEAKER_03 35:20

Because the way the blanket looks, and they don't. I actually looked online before when you told me this was gonna be the segment, they sold out of this color. It's almost like patched together, big, like foam. It's almost like foam, like very soft, different colors, and it's almost like a checkerboard. And it's so it's really warm and it's like stuffed and soft.

SPEAKER_06 35:43

Oh, it's like stuffed, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:44

It's like really a stuffed blanket. But she just absolutely crusted loved it. So it was like a huge win.

Main Topic: The Unwelcome Guest Metaphor

SPEAKER_06 35:55

So that's you gotta love that one.

SPEAKER_03 35:57

Yeah, but it was from Urban Outfitters, which is not a place that I shop at.

SPEAKER_06 36:02

Every once in a while you can find good stuff there. I mean, I used to like love places and stuff, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they have some cute home goods. They do have unique stuff. You know what's so funny is it's like definitely given this vibe of like we're super alternative. And I think, you know, it's like some like super Republican ownership. Is it?

SPEAKER_03 36:20

See, I don't know anything about it.

SPEAKER_06 36:22

Which I think is now, now that I say that a lot, it's like so is every single corporate entity.

SPEAKER_03 36:26

It's called a marshmallow cloud fleece throw blanket.

SPEAKER_06 36:29

Marshmallow cloud fleece throw blanket.

SPEAKER_03 36:33

So it really lived up to potential, but hers is purple and pink.

SPEAKER_06 36:38

So see how it's Oh, it's really cute. It would look great in here.

SPEAKER_03 36:43

Well, you don't need uh, you don't need anybody else's. It's on sale right now, so might as well get it. I mean gorgeous. You could also get the oh, this is hers. They have it back. That's the one I got her.

SPEAKER_06 36:58

Oh, I love the boys and berry. Boysenberry, so cute.

SPEAKER_03 37:02

Yeah. And I do I send this to Jishi? Send it to Jishy.

SPEAKER_06 37:06

You can send it to me.

SPEAKER_03 37:07

Uh, you know, there's just a few more days of Hanukkah.

SPEAKER_02 37:09

You could uh, you know. Yeah. And yeah, if you're listening, you know, you got a blanket you really want to send, just text me direct. You got my number?

SPEAKER_03 37:16

We'll send it to you. Um, so anyway, so that was another gift that stuck out this year.

SPEAKER_06 37:22

That's great.

SPEAKER_03 37:23

Uh yeah, it was really good.

SPEAKER_06 37:25

Can I ask? Now you may not have this off the dome, but any good meals you had out or made? Like recipes.

SPEAKER_03 37:37

Had out or made? I'm trying to think. That's I gotta think on that one. Okay for a sec. What about you?

SPEAKER_06 37:47

I okay, so I was thinking about this and I was really having trouble. Kiln. Oh, I mean, yeah, I know, but it's like it feels like cheating to mention one I had over the weekend.

SPEAKER_02 37:59

It feels like cheating to mention one we've had so many times and we love.

SPEAKER_06 38:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:03

It's all cheat. What's not cheating? I know.

SPEAKER_06 38:05

Kiln is this place in Cleveland that we went. Um there's like this chef, this chef. There's a shop.

SPEAKER_03 38:11

This chalk. This shop. Love the shop.

SPEAKER_05 38:15

I can't talk. This chef in the Cleveland area.

SPEAKER_02 38:23

For some reason, I was picturing like Chunky Cheese. It's like a picture. He actually works at Chunky Jeez.

SPEAKER_03 38:32

I mean, if this is where we're going, we're never gonna get to a real topic. This is I'm sorry. Oh no, I want to hear about kiln.

SPEAKER_06 38:40

So there's a chef. Not a chef, but a chef in Cleveland named Doug Katz.

SPEAKER_03 38:45

Doug Katz.

SPEAKER_06 38:46

And he has a few restaurants. Okay. The first one that I went to of his was called Jug Z-H-U-G. It's like that spice. Delicious. It's more Mediterranean, it's really good. Um, they have a ton of like vegan options. That's why my brother and his wife love it. My brother and his sister, just me, his wife. Um, and then uh he opened like an Indian outpost that has more like Indian flavors, and then this one, kiln. I from what I could tell from the menu, it's more of like a French okay, like bistro style, and it's a really outstanding. And we did have it over the weekend, but it was really good. There was this pork belly dish that was like, oh god, I was like cross-eyed eating it. There was this like telegio cheese, like scalloped potatoes, which I hadn't had scalloped potatoes in so long. That was maybe my favorite dish of the night.

SPEAKER_02 39:46

The potato?

SPEAKER_06 39:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:47

Um over the pork.

SPEAKER_06 39:49

Maybe it's the pork, it might be the pork. Cop two. So good. I mean, everything was incredible at this place. Those popovers. Yeah, there were popovers that were good, which is almost like sea. Savory French toast, if you like pop overs end up tasting like. Yeah, so that place was really good. I was gonna actually, both of my mentions of restaurants are not Chicago restaurants, which maybe is like sacrilege, but not at all. In Michigan, um, there's this place we went with Josh's family called Mabel Grey.

SPEAKER_03 40:17

Yeah, you mentioned that.

SPEAKER_06 40:18

Oh, we already mentioned it. Incredible.

SPEAKER_03 40:21

It sounded great. They had some fries there that you loved, I think.

SPEAKER_06 40:24

Best fries I've ever had in my entire life. And I am like a fry connoisseur, so yeah. Oh, I loved it. It was so great, and they were so nice, and it's a great place. I think people should check it out if you're in like the Detroit area. It's in Detroit, right?

Applying ACT To Holidays And Social Anxiety

SPEAKER_02 40:37

It's in I don't think it's literally in Detroit. Let me let me it's in the Detroit area.

SPEAKER_06 40:43

Detroit Metro Detroit. Metro Detroit.

SPEAKER_02 40:46

Greater Detroit.

SPEAKER_06 40:47

Yeah. Incredible. In terms of things I made, or like recipes I found that I loved. Which is bad. It makes me feel like I'm not being very original in the kitchen in 2025. Which maybe I wasn't. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 41:06

That might be a little harsh. Yeah. Maybe you stuck with what you knew. Yeah. Staples that are still really good. I can't think of any new recipes I tried that really blew me out of the water.

SPEAKER_06 41:16

Right. I mean, maybe that's what I'm gonna set an intention around in 2026. Like, be a little more experimental in the kitchen, especially because we're now trying to save money and cook at home more. Yeah. But here's the thing I do. I'm like, I'm gonna save money and cook at home. And then it's like I find a way to spend a ridiculous amount of money making a recipe. Like, I need to learn that skill of like cool new recipe, but not like, you know, but buying exorbitant amounts of beef. Yeah. Cuts of beef. Or it's like going to whole foods, and then I'm like, wait, I got like 15 different herbs for this. Like pick an herb and just get on with it. Great. We're gonna do strip steaks again. Yes. I like really$40 a cut. It'll be great. I mean, yeah, I I do that. It's like because I I'm so proud of myself for cooking at home and not being at a restaurant. And it's like, of course, I'm not getting like cocktails and whatever. So it is less, but it's definitely less. Yeah. Especially with the way like Chicago dining is in name.

SPEAKER_03 42:15

But I think that's a tricky thing where you know you're saving money in one area, so then you're more loose in another area because your mind's telling you, but you're saving money in this area, so you can buy a little bit. Right. It takes a lot of discipline.

SPEAKER_06 42:26

And you know, sometimes like I'll say to Josh, like, we'll be in Trader Joe's. I'm like, oh my God, you know what I'll make for dinner is this and this, and then it'll be so cheap, it'll be so good. And like sometimes it makes you sad when I say that, like excited about how cheap something is. And I'm like, this is completely new territory for me to know how to be frugal, give it a sincere effort, and find recipes I'm excited about. So it is a good thing. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 42:51

When I'm like, I feel less sad knowing that you aren't sad.

SPEAKER_06 42:55

Yeah. I mean, it's like you're never gonna have to like, I'm never gonna be the person who's like too afraid to spend money. It's like I need to be encouraged anytime. I'm like, what if we scale back? You're afraid to not spend money. I'm literally afraid to not spend all my money.

SPEAKER_03 43:13

Like, what would happen if I didn't spend money?

SPEAKER_06 43:15

Like, if I don't spend money, it won't be good. It will be so bad, and I'll hate it and it'll be a mess. And it's like, no, I really need to think like, and maybe even it's like creative recipes on a budget is my kind of 2026. Like, and I want to think of it like an exciting challenge, not you know, sad in any way. I'm I'm learning the skill of being frugal, which is like no matter how much money I make, that is a necessary skill.

SPEAKER_03 43:47

It's yeah, and it is a skill to learn.

SPEAKER_06 43:51

Yeah, it's like you can outspend any paycheck. So it takes time, and it takes time and it takes some real mindfulness of your spending.

SPEAKER_03 43:59

It's like any other skill. Some people are naturally good at it.

SPEAKER_06 44:02

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:04

And they don't really need to think about it. And then some people need time and effort and awareness, and that's and then you're good at other things that come natural, you know.

SPEAKER_06 44:15

Yeah, and I already set an intention around making a budget for 2026.

SPEAKER_03 44:20

But see, that's nice to have a partner who can hold you accountable to it. Totally because left to our own devices with stuff like that, myself included, you know, I'll make up every excuse in the book to continue to do whatever it is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 44:36

So yeah, it's so much less sad too when you're doing it with a partner to make it a fun challenge. I mean, and you're the best about it because you are good at saving, Josh, but you also like you are very like, well, let's be reasonable here. We gotta live. You know, like I do love that you have that because I think there are people who skew so far the other way, they like can't.

SPEAKER_02 44:58

You're very pragmatic, probably, about it. Totally. I did get a little sad when we were watching Little Women, and there's the scene with like Emma Watson and the husband, because he's like the like broke tutor, yeah, and she can't like afford the money to like sew the dress. And I was like, is this me and Kelly?

SPEAKER_06 45:15

No, no, I like fully have my own salary. So do I. My own boss. No, I think it's like, oh, believe me, I'm dramatic enough in times where whatever I'm like not being good at finances that I can act like I'm Emma Watson and little women be like, I'm tired of being poor. And in my mind, what it is is like I want endless funds to buy whatever the f I want. Yeah. And it's like, even if I had endless funds, I know that wouldn't make me happy. And it's like we're totally financially secure, and there's always someone you could look at next to you that's like on a different rung. John. John. Yeah. Yeah, John over here spending left and right.

SPEAKER_03 46:01

Oh, well, just making it rain everywhere I go, splashing bills everywhere. Should Zimiac karaoke.

SPEAKER_06 46:08

But yeah, it's like I don't even know how we got on this.

SPEAKER_03 46:12

How did we get on this? Well, the the holiday gifts. Oh, yeah. The gifts.

SPEAKER_06 46:16

The gifts and then the food and the fruit. So yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna set the intention of being more creative in the kitchen so I have things to report for the end of 2026 about cool recipes.

SPEAKER_03 46:29

See, I think if you want some advice, yeah. I think you also need to explore when you're not spending money, what is it that you like to do that doesn't require like money. Money or things.

SPEAKER_06 46:43

Yeah.

Intrusive Thoughts, Exposure, And Acceptance

SPEAKER_03 46:44

And maybe you already, I mean, I know you love to read and you know.

SPEAKER_06 46:47

Yeah, but it's like even I turn that into because I'll be like, well, I want to get another book because I'm not liking this one so much.

SPEAKER_03 46:53

But what about the library? You know, I think the library.

SPEAKER_06 46:56

The library, you're right.

SPEAKER_03 46:58

Yeah, I do, you know, and it's like even if And they know how to reinforce it because they send you that little thing that tells you I've mentioned that before, how much you've saved. Yes, which makes me want to go to the library more. And trust me, I love a bookstore. It's hard to avoid a bookstore.

SPEAKER_06 47:12

Yeah, can you um I don't even go to the bookstore? I have it straight, straight to the veins with the Kindle. Yeah. Not like, you know, free based books. I'm like it's like really. I yeah, it's like I can turn anything into a spending arena.

SPEAKER_03 47:32

Um, but yeah, like But that we're gonna change that too because we're gonna this when we have our Hanukkah party on Friday and I bring the kids over, we're gonna turn you two into gamers. Oh, I would love that.

SPEAKER_06 47:44

I mean, that's what that means.

SPEAKER_03 47:45

Card games, card games, board games, no money required, just ultimate fun. Just ultimate fun.

SPEAKER_06 47:51

I even said that, and of course I'm not like a game person, but but I know you are, I'm going to get into it. And like Dave Ramsey, the famous like financial guy who I like got into for a bit when we were here in office, and like I've backed off it a little bit because he's like a little intense, but he has some good ideas, sure. But his whole thing is very like save, save, save, save, save, save, save until this later point where you're secure. But and he's you know, pay down debt and blah blah. But he um his whole thing is like, yeah, have friends over board games, like yeah, like we're getting serious about this. Like, you're not getting a Starbucks, Dungeons and Dragons all year round.

SPEAKER_03 48:31

Like no, write your campaign, yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_06 48:34

Which, like, hey, if I find a game I'm really into, I would love that. Yeah, have people over for games? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:42

Have you tried shoots and ladders?

SPEAKER_03 48:44

Love shoots and ladders. Great game, Candyland.

SPEAKER_02 48:47

Does that hold up for adults? Not really.

SPEAKER_03 48:49

Maybe snakes and I will bring a game that has a little bit of a shoot element to it. I'll bring it over on Friday. Oh, perfect. I'm gonna bring over a sample of things. Yeah, bring over a few things, certainly things that the kids can play with us, but also I'll bring over some adult fare and I'll leave them here. See, that's the other thing with games, is that you can have like a swap and then have people which doesn't cost money. You don't have to buy them. A game swap. Game swap. Puzzles. We love jigsaw puzzles. Puzzles. Granted, you gotta buy them, but for the amount of time you actually put into one, depending on how big it is, I find it enjoyable.

SPEAKER_06 49:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 49:23

Frugality.

SPEAKER_06 49:24

I mean, it's like even if you do that one night of the weekend and the other night you go out, like even that is enormous.

SPEAKER_02 49:31

Enormous.

SPEAKER_06 49:32

Or you could do it the whole weekend.

SPEAKER_02 49:34

Go to the club one night, do a puzzle one night.

SPEAKER_04 49:37

Yeah. Do the club in the club.

SPEAKER_02 49:40

In the club, do puzzle in the club. Do you imagine that'd be great?

SPEAKER_06 49:44

Bring your puzzle.

SPEAKER_03 49:45

Bring your little light, your little um dome light. I you know, they do have the game cafes. Oh, yeah. I don't want to name this one on the podcast because I'm gonna kind of throw it under the bus. Kibbit's nest? No. But we had that one was like, oh, this will be, you know, like I I for it was someday on a weekend where the weather wasn't that good. I was like, why don't we just go to this game cafe?

SPEAKER_07 50:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:10

You know, and we'll get maybe they have like hot chocolate for the kids and whatever. And so I went on their website, and you have to pay to reserve the table. Ridiculous. So I was like, I thought that like paying for the drinks and being patrons here, I thought the whole point of the cafe was then it was like, no, you had to reserve the time, you had to pay for the table per person. And I was like, whoa, I might as well just go to Starbucks. I mean, yeah, and take a game there. Bring a game, yeah. Which you really floored me. I was like, wait a second.

SPEAKER_06 50:44

Well, especially because it's a game cafe. It's not like it's a game cafe. It's not like it's like a sports bar on a game weekend. No, whatever. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:53

I was like, whoa, I thought I can't just wander in here and grab a game. How much was it to reserve? I don't know. It was at least$15, maybe a person.

SPEAKER_06 51:03

A person? It was a person. It was a person. Right. What the fuck? I know. I know. Get over yourself. I want to blast this place. What's it called? We're not blasting it.

SPEAKER_03 51:16

Off air. Off air. Cancel a small business. Wheel blast. Off air will blast. Like I don't know. That to me was not the business model I was looking for. Yeah. Um, and that that just shows that I will never be a patron of that place. It's uh I would much rather frequent regularly a cafe that is a cafe. Yeah. That has board games that you can do.

SPEAKER_06 51:39

Yeah, it's not gonna charge you to sit there, it's not gonna charge you, it's just gonna charge you for the product.

SPEAKER_03 51:43

Right, right. Yeah. Anyway. Totally. Okay.

SPEAKER_06 51:47

I digress. So now we could finally move into our main topic.

SPEAKER_03 51:51

Our main topic.

SPEAKER_06 51:52

Even though our holiday topic was like a semi-main topic. Our main topic today is something called the unwelcome guest. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:00

It's a metaphor.

Dating, Rejection, And Making Space For Discomfort

SPEAKER_06 52:01

It's a metaphor. So tell us about it. Tell us about how you came to this.

SPEAKER_03 52:04

Yeah. So, well, I mean, you know metaphors, right? So we use metaphors a lot in therapy, um, specifically in act. So acceptance and commitment therapy.

SPEAKER_06 52:15

Yeah, they're huge in act.

SPEAKER_03 52:16

They're huge in act. And I think that metaphors are useful in so many different ways. And I think some of the reason why um acts will use metaphors is a lot of times the things that we're struggling with, we kind of have very rigid ways of thinking about them. And we have rigid ways that we use language for our experience. And the use of a metaphor is to really take ourselves outside of some of that language. We can kind of use things that aren't really based in reality through the metaphors. They're sometimes a little bit silly.

unknown 52:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:51

Um, sometimes you just have to kind of suspend disbelief and go along with them. Um, but they they also maybe can demystify some of the concepts that we're talking about and make them just more palatable and and easier at times to access. Easier in the sense of understanding, maybe not implement. And so Act has like, I mean, big book of metaphors is literally a book that just has metaphors that you can.

SPEAKER_06 53:13

Yeah, I forget. Is there like a one author credit? Or someone who compiled the picture.

SPEAKER_03 53:17

True. I don't know who did the big book of metaphors. I don't think it was Russ Harris, but um Russ Harris has great videos on YouTube with animation and different things like that. So metaphors are really, really useful. And we were thinking about since the holidays were coming up, like what would be a good metaphor to use? And I thought this would be one maybe that would be helpful. But are you getting that author?

SPEAKER_06 53:41

So it's okay. Stephen Hayes has the foreword, and then it's just don't LA Stoddard and Neilophore Afari. So they put together this big book of action. You're like, but, but, but yeah, me just clicking. Purchased. Why not? It's good to have in the collection.

SPEAKER_03 54:00

Yeah. So a lot of times these can just really help the therapy problem, especially like stuck points where people get really stuck or rigid. So sometimes these things can be useful. Yeah. So maybe we could just kind of go through the metaphor and then we can talk about how it might apply for us, but also maybe around the holidays.

SPEAKER_06 54:20

Yeah, totally. I think that's a good idea. Because I was already thinking about this when you suggested this topic. Like, what are kind of like the unwanted party guests coming up for me, which to as I understand it and have talked about it in the clinical setting, is like the unwanted party guest can be an internal guest. Yes. So that's an external guest. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 54:41

So what we're really thinking about is more so this idea of a guest is like these unwanted, unwelcome, like private, what we call those private experiences. So their emotions, their thoughts, their sensations, yeah, their memories, they're all of these things that are unwelcome. We don't want them around us. And so a lot of times we spend a lot of energy and we engage in a lot of behaviors trying to avoid these guests or shut them down or escape them or control them. And that could be any number of behaviors. Uh, it could be numbing out or substance use or just avoidance in general. And so if somebody's really struggling with these things, we want to help them realize one, the amount of effort that they're doing to kind of control these unwelcome guests, but also what by doing that, what is it taking you away from? So if somebody's really struggling with this, you could kind of pause them and say, okay, well, maybe we could think about this a different way, right? And so imagine um you're having this party and you're setting up and you you've invited all of your friends, and um, you know, people start showing up, you're close friends, you start getting, you know, people together, people are talking, you're starting to have a good time. All of a sudden, you know, somebody knocks at the door and you open it up, and sure enough, it's what's the name we could use? Merv. Merv. And you're like, oh God, somebody told Merv. Like Merv's annoying, yeah, he's loud, yeah, he is rude, yeah, he's invalidating, he takes up all the conversation, right? And he shows up at your door and he just kind of like barges in and he's at your party, and you're like, Oh my god, what am I gonna do? And he starts mingling with people, he starts spilling drinks, he starts, you know, and you're just like, Oh my god, this unwelcome guest is here. Yeah, right. And so you have some options, um, but the first thing that comes to mind is this idea, like, I gotta get Merv out of here.

Naming Merv And Using Metaphors In Therapy

SPEAKER_06 56:46

Like, I could if I interject, I could see myself in this case, like with Merv. Yeah, going to Josh and being like, get him out of here. Yeah, like you get him out of here. I can't with this. I've I've done this today for several things where it's like, fix this for me.

SPEAKER_03 57:02

Yes, yeah. I gotta fix this situation. Yeah, I can't do anything other than fix this situation. I have to concentrate on getting Merv out of here. So you like try to wrestle with Merv and try to you push him towards the door, you finally get him towards the door, you kind of get him out, but then he's kind of like, No, no, no, I'm gonna stay, right? And so he's kind of like I feel like Merv is a Tim Robinson character. He's just like, he won't leave, right? And you're putting all this energy, and then you're like, okay, fine, like I have an idea. Right. I'm gonna ask him to go into the bedroom because I'm gonna like give him a task and say, Hey, I got a task for you. So you say, Hey Merv, can you go in the bedroom? I need something from there, blah, blah, blah. Merv goes in there and you close the door behind him and you hold it.

SPEAKER_05 57:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 57:49

And you're like, well, great, problem solved. Merv is no longer at my party. But now you look over and you look at your guests, and they're all still having a good time, and you realize something is starting to crystallize here that in order for my party to continue to be great, I have to continue to hold Merv in this room. And I can't let go. Because the second I let go, Merv comes back out and he's ruining my party. So you're at this like choice point, yeah. Where it's like, I can put all of this energy into trying to avoid having this unwelcome guest with my guest and my party.

SPEAKER_06 58:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 58:28

And I'll put all that energy in there. But what I'm really doing is I'm taking myself away from the one thing I was planning and the one thing I wanted to engage in, which was my party.

SPEAKER_05 58:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 58:38

And so you're at this like stuck place where you're like, well, what do what can I do here? I either continue to try to control something I can't really control. I can kind of contain them in a way, but then I'm not engaging with my friends, I'm not having any meaningful conversations. The party's going on without me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 58:55

I don't get to experience it.

SPEAKER_03 58:56

I don't get to experience it.

SPEAKER_06 58:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 58:58

Right. And so you kind of go through this metaphor and you're you're asking, you know, some questions or what people are thinking, or you can just kind of lay it out there. But you kind of like probe and say, well, what would you do? Like in this scenario? Like, what are your options here? Are you really going to hold that door all night? You can do that. You always have the choice to do that. And and sometimes people will be like, well, no, I guess, you know, maybe I'll just let Merv be a part of the party and just try to have the best time I can. And that's kind of the moment where if people can come to that, using that metaphor, it's this idea that, you know, when we do things in life, there's always going to be these unwelcome things that come.

SPEAKER_05 59:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 59:40

These emotions, these thoughts.

SPEAKER_05 59:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 59:43

And we cannot engage with our life in order to try to control these unwelcome things. Right. And this could be anxiety or fear. It could be traumatic memories. It could be suicidal ideation. We talked about that last week on the pod, right? And it's not to invalidate them. But it's trying to open ourselves up to what would it be like to continue to live your meaningful experiences with these unwelcome guests being there and making room for them ultimately.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:10

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:11

So that's kind of the metaphor that you take people through. And the metaphors don't really give people an answer. Some people try to solve the metaphor. Some analytic people are really like, well, what I would do is, and their their brain wants to make sense of it that way. And it's like, well, no, we kind of just want to sit with this, where there's not one answer to it. You can still choose to really control your MERVs, whatever they are, right? When you do that though, what does that take you away from? Yeah. Right. Like, does it take you away from like more meaningful opportunities in your life to have Merv there, but not Merv isn't controlling you, and you're not trying to control Merv. So I don't know what your thoughts are, or even Josh, what your thoughts are on that.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:53

I mean, I love it. I think it's such a great metaphor for you know, and like MERV can be so many different things. Right. You know, like I'm trying to think for me, like what's like a MERV that comes up that I really tend to chase around and try to get rid of. A lot of times I think for me it's shame. I really want to appear normal all the time. That's like a big thing for me.

SPEAKER_07 1:01:25

Yeah.

How Wise Is It: Lists, Notes, And Post-Its

SPEAKER_06 1:01:25

And I really try to I almost like try to prevent Merv in a way, like hold the front door shut, kind of. And it can feel really exhausting if I do that. Or yeah, like some social things can feel so phony if I do that.

SPEAKER_07 1:01:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:47

Like I'm being phony. Or it's like the MERV can be sometimes like with the holidays, if I think about it, it's like so many kind of different groups are coming together. And, you know, like there's tensions, and it's like, I know I really want to make sure the tension doesn't arise, or if it does, it smooths out really quickly. And it's like, okay, so what is what is the tension that could and does arrive, arise? Like, what is the mirve it brings up in me? You know, it's like fear a lot of the time. What's gonna happen?

SPEAKER_03 1:02:25

And we might avoid that then by doing any number of things or whether it's like not being authentic or like avoiding the event, putting our needs out there, like so the way to control Murr or keep them in the closet is to just acquiesce to what everybody else is doing and not really like holding our boundaries. There's so many, yeah, there's so many ways that it can go.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:48

Yeah, and then the question, like you said, like what are you losing? What are you giving up? If I if I always try to smooth over tension and avoid the anxiety that comes with the tension, I never really feel connected to anyone. And that's my number one value. So it's like connection. So it's like I'm so obsessed with things being smooth that I'll sacrifice the very essence of the thing for myself. Yeah. And I as I say that out loud, it's like, of course, that's not my wise mind choosing that. My wise mind would say, like, Kelly, can we make space for tension? And maybe some anxiety that might come with that, some uncertainty that might come with that. And I often have to like even go further and make space for the possibility of like the negative consequences, like being disliked and the feeling that comes with that, shame. Yeah, like can you be strong and expand around this feeling rather than try to prevent it or fix it or tame it?

SPEAKER_03 1:03:56

See, mine always sounds like if we're thinking more of like just social and around the holidays. And this might be a little bit more towards gatherings with people I don't know as well. Family's a little bit different, but I always have the thoughts that come in that are like, these conversations are gonna be boring. Yes, yeah, these people aren't interesting, and it's so judgmental. And I find the way that I try to like lock that in a room, or is to just like literally find a corner or something where I don't talk to people. Yeah, and I just kind of like stand and like observe. And it's like, even if it is boring, like, is this really what you want to be doing? It's just like standing around and like looking tall and awkward and like intensely concentrating, like that's not what you want. Like so mine comes up, and and it came up pretty recently at a at a holiday event um where a bunch of families got together. And and I'm not trying to judge people, but my mind does go to that judgment of the place of like, am I is this gonna be an engaging conversation? It might not even be judging them, it's just like I don't what are we gonna talk about? We're gonna talk about the same stuff.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:10

This is not for me. This is not for me.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:12

I want to talk about the same stuff.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:15

I don't want to keep talking about how busy the parenting schedules are. And like total, I'm a little bit over that. I'm gonna reprieve from that. Yeah. And it's like instead of avoiding the conversation, why don't I bring up a new topic?

SPEAKER_05 1:05:26

100%.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:26

So it's like, you know, like that would be me then instead of having Merv in the closet or in the in the in the closet, in the in the bedroom, in the fireplace, in the dishwasher. Um, you know, and like and and just watching other people have conversations, like, why don't you lean in and have an interesting or try to create an interesting conversation? It's like with those thoughts of this, yeah, it could be boring. Who knows? But I so that's kind of what the that unwelcome, if we're thinking about more like social and and holiday things, but certainly like I don't want it to feel like the unwanted guest has to be around just social situations. It's like anything we do. I mean, it's anything in life that's kind of unwanted. What do we do to kind of keep it under wraps or control it? But yeah, I know we're spinning this little holidays. So that's what comes up for me. And then again, I just kind of like close myself off to like conversations and yeah, totally.

When Lists Help And When They Don’t

SPEAKER_06 1:06:23

Yeah, it comes up for me in a lot of social situations, but it also can come up for me in just like doing tasks. Like this is gonna be boring. It's gonna be boring, unpleasant and exciting, boring, and like hard. Yep. Kind of like oof, effortful in a way that sucks. Yeah. And it's like and the easiest way is just don't do it then. And then it's like things that are meaningful to me don't get done. And the truth is, like, and I really am one of these people where it's like, if I can be fully present with a task, even like wiping down a counter, it's not unenjoyable. Yeah, it's interesting. Everything is interesting if you can like really be present with whatever it brings up in one way or another. You know, I'm thinking about this a lot. I know we're talking about holidays, but like I think this is a really great concept right now for people that are dating. Because I really think so much merv is in the way. And the discourse is a lot of like the landscape sucks, there's no one to date, the culture's changing, and people don't know how to date. I think all of that is phony. Avoidance. I think it's all avoidance of like the natural discomfort and vulnerability of dating. Of dating. I really believe that and rejection and rejection and like putting your whole self out there and have people kind of going, not for me. Or you doing that and the discomfort of that, you seeing someone's profile, a 2D just like run down to who they are, and you being like, ugh, not for me. There's can be a lot of guilt there, which is Merv, you know, this unwanted party guy.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:01

Merv Griffin. We're coming for you, Merv Griffin.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:04

We're coming for your ass. But yeah, it's like, and I think if you can really make space for all those feelings. And you know, sometimes in therapy you can go further into them and get curious about those feelings too. And that can help you even make more space for them when you understand like possibly where does guilt like that come from? Are you not allowed to ever have choices or have preferences or whatever? But yeah, the basic principle being this thing of like, can you make space for natural feeling? Yeah, no matter how uncomfortable. Instead of using all your energy to avoid it. Right. Yeah, I feel like I've been recently talking about this this with some clients who have intrusive thinking. Yeah. There's so much conversation around just helping them notice, like the mind will wander to things. And that is not really the problem. The problem is you, the part that rises up that says, This must stop. Right. This can't be here. MERVs gotta go.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:04

And it's like all your energy, then it's like you become the MERV.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:08

Right. And that's where it's like that's the choice point where it's like, are you gonna exercise all of this energy into trying to control something you really can't control? You can numb it, you can escape it a little bit, but those behaviors that experiential avoidance usually isn't value-aligned, which values we've talked about many times here. And it also takes you away from just meaningful experiences and being able to sit with those uncomfortable thoughts. And the more you sit with them, and that's the leap of faith a lot of times with a lot of the work we do, is you almost have to expose yourself to it more and more in order for it to feel less and less intense. Not that it's guaranteed, right? But the more you prove to yourself you can do it with these intrusive thoughts, yeah, they might not be as omnipresent. Yeah, they're still gonna be there, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:55

Well, it's that kind of that you growing larger than which is really the thing. And you know, like I what I love in act and dbt too, like there is space for validating. Like, it's okay if you don't want Merv to be there. Right. That's okay. 100%. It's okay if you're like, I didn't put him on the invite list. Like, what the fuck is he doing here? Yeah, and then you kind of slow down.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:19

Exactly. And the other thing I love about Act 2 is we're not judging the other, like if every time Merv has shown up, you've put him in the bedroom to control him. We're not judging that. Right. That worked for you. And you're gonna have that instinct, and you're gonna have that. And so there's no judgment on that. That served a purpose in a certain context. And so we're building that awareness. Is that the way you want to engage with it? Now, I'm not saying you have to do anything different, right? But it's also there's also that layer of compassion of you did those behaviors for a reason, right? Like you put Merv in in the bedroom for a reason. Like it's highly uncomfortable stuff. Of course, you tried to escape it or control it. And as we're looking at this, is it still again that workability question, that little tongue-in-cheek of like, is it working for you? Is it moving you closer to meaning and values and the things that we're working on in the space? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:10

How is that going? Yeah, holding Merv in that room, yeah, in that fireplace. How is it going? How's it going? Like, zoom out.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:21

Now that we're looking at that, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:23

And really, like people have the ability to say, like, I'm holding Merv in here. I refuse. You can refuse. It's your life. Of course. You totally can. Or maybe there's a time where you're more ready and you can keep being curious about this, like the other way.

Wrap-Up, Plugs, And Holiday Wishes

SPEAKER_03 1:11:40

It's interesting because sometimes when you bring up this metaphor, people will literally take it as, oh, I've had this experience or I have an upcoming social event, especially if you do this around the holidays. Yes. And people will be like, I know so-and-so is gonna show up.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:54

My uncle or whatever. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:56

And the what's interesting about that is sometimes that can play out very like effective in the sense of, well, okay, let's even just think about it on a real level. When your uncle shows up, yeah, what do you typically do? Oh, well, I'm just looking the whole time, trying to avoid him. And it's like, exactly. And what is that experience like? And it's like, well, it's exhausting. I'm I'm spending my whole time around my family trying to avoid one person. Yeah. And then what I'm doing, and then what I'm doing is I'm not engaging with other people. Yeah. Because my I'm ruminating, I'm in my head about it. Oh, God, what wait until he says something uncomfortable. And so the metaphor sometimes, depending on people's circumstances, it actually can really crystallize because it's like, oh yeah, you're right. Like when my uncle is around, I do spend a majority of the time just thinking about him.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:46

And I'm not really engaged more mindfully in just, yeah, of course. Acknowledge, you know, you don't have to love your uncle or the guy or be around him or whatever. And it's like, how could you maybe navigate that situation a little bit different?

SPEAKER_06 1:13:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:01

You know.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:02

I mean, I think this is coming up with the Apple ID recovery thing. I mean, I because I'm like realizing like something I said to Josh earlier today, it was like, I know I'm like being a bitch to you. Like, I because I'm so upset about this. And I and you have been so understanding about it. But I said, like, I don't know how to deal with this issue and be a good person. Like, I just I'm having so much trouble not being a nightmare as I deal with it. Just like really complaining and freaking out, like in an almost regressive way. And it's like, what's the Merv there? Like I've tried, you know, I was locked out of my phone for five days. Because Apple kind of treats it like you, like you said, like you lost your security, social security card.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:53

Oh.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:54

And like tried four different times to move it over. I had to like go back to team mobile and have them re-ignite my old phone because I didn't have a phone at all. I couldn't receive calls because I had tried to start the transfer.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:09

Well, I mean, certainly it feels very helpless and hopeless, but also Incredibly hopefully. I wonder, and only because you've shared this before in the podcast, I wonder if it can also feel like you're not being seen. Yeah. Nobody's seeing. It's true. I need this ID, this Apple ID. Yeah. Nobody's listening to me. They're locking me out. Nobody is, nobody's into the void.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:31

And it's kind of like they don't care.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:34

Like it's like, you want me to find this Mac.com thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:40

And it's like I really laugh because it's like I've tried to retrieve things from years ago where it's like, I don't know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:48

Well, it's like Mac.com doesn't exist anymore. So help me understand where the fuckup's going to be.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:55

You're like at Carrie Bradshaw's computer, like the blue Apple one that's going. Yeah, where it's like sad. Like, oh yeah, I got that in the basement. I'll just bring that up.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:03

Yeah. And it's like, I finally got into that AOL. And but there were three Apple IDs that I had to remember the ancient passwords for.

SPEAKER_07 1:15:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:12

And they wouldn't let me reset them.

SPEAKER_07 1:15:14

That's a nightmare.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:15

So I mean, I'm like, they just like they're making me jump through all these hoops and then they don't care about me. I think there is something there where I feel like, and then I have this like, I'm never gonna be able to have what I need to feel safe. I think it's like a safety feeling to make the internet, a secure internet connection that's reliable for my work. It just feels like I'm dangling at the edge of a cliff trying to do therapy with my clients, and it's just so frustrating. And you know, like I have moments of like, okay, I'm gonna make space for this uncertainty and this like limbo feeling I'm in. And then other moments, like the next thing goes wrong, and I'm like flailing my arms in the air, like, what the hell? And I I think I do it's like, and it doesn't negate any efforts of like actual problem solving to do this, to to welcome the unwanted party guest, is one like important gesture and inner like stance. And then you can do like problem solving efforts of the actual situation. Like, can I get anyone else at the party a drink? Can I crank the music up? You know, for me, it's like, can I call Apple for the hundredth time? Can I, you know, set up a genius bar appointment? Which they also wouldn't let me do. But the next thing, you know, I'm the now I'm just gonna go tomorrow. I'm gonna go tomorrow and go to the store and just stand there until someone helps me in the rain. Like I'm gonna do it. And and it's like the feelings there, can I make space for them? Set my intentions of like what needs to be done in the actual situations. The feelings are welcome with that.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:12

And yeah, than the lashing out part. It sounds like you're navigating it as best as you can.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:18

And I'm not judging that either.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:20

No, totally. I mean, you did a really good job, Josh, of saying, like, I was like, I know this isn't who I am. And you're like, well, that's why it's okay. Because it's not who you are. Like, if this were who you are, it's a huge issue.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:35

It can be who you are for a little bit. For a little bit.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:38

It's just like for a moment. I really can get set off by these things. Kind of feels like you're like in prison, you know? Yeah. And sometimes what will help me is like encountering another person having a bad day. Isn't that weird? It's like validation.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:54

No, I think that's common humanity.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:57

Yeah. And then it's like we can both kind of help each other make space for the feeling. And it does feel lighter to hold it.

SPEAKER_07 1:18:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:06

And that really is my lived experience. When I actually mindfully make space for everything in the experience, it does tend to feel lighter. It doesn't feel painless, but if I do feel stronger to hold it and kind of grow larger than the thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:24

Yeah. Well, I think, I mean, there's so many metaphors. It's like, yeah, even if this one doesn't land or resonate, and that's some of the dance of therapy is sometimes you use a metaphor and it really clicks with somebody. And then sometimes you use it and they're like, What? Right. So it's also I like that there's so many of them because there's so many different ones that can help with so many different like concepts. Totally. And I think around the holidays, just for the passive listener, thinking about what you're avoiding could be a way to engage with this metaphor.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:58

Like around your family or events or yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:03

What's a MERV for you? Yeah. That move.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:06

Is it a feeling? Is it a thought? Is it you know, literally uncomfortable situations or people? And then how do you try to put MERV in the bedroom? How do you try to avoid? And is that a meaningful thing for you?

SPEAKER_05 1:19:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:20

Maybe. I mean, we're not saying it isn't always. It's something to consider.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:24

And some of that trying to control MERV comes before even the party. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:29

Oh, yeah. Like a lot of mine does. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:32

And it can range from like panicking about MIRV, constantly talking about the idea that MERV might come.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:38

Ruminating. Yeah. Overpreparing. Trying to be preparing. Over planning. Over getting ready. Outfits, a million of them.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:46

Oh God, I do all this.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:48

Like all these things. We all do all these. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:51

Right. And then ultimately deciding sometimes not to go.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:56

Right. And then that's kind of where it's gonna go. Okay, well. Let's think about that. Yeah. Is that really what we want to do?

SPEAKER_06 1:20:02

Isn't it so interesting? Like, it's just so interesting that like there's people where that is kind of their main way to control MIRV is like avoiding stuff. Just don't go. Yeah. And I really never do that. There's like some part of my like all the fragmented parts of me, like that's not the control move. It does. It's like go and freak out a little, or go and be maybe a little fake. It's so much more where I'd go. It's just so interesting. Yeah. You know, like what feels off limits. And I guess, I guess like avoiding things or kind of like last-minute changing of plans. Like, there's probably trauma there, but I think there also are values there for me where it's like it just doesn't feel respectful to do that if I don't absolutely have to. Sure. But yeah, I love this metaphor. I mean, I feel like I love metaphors. That's that's what's one of the great things about act. Really, it helps. I love when a client will bring up a metaphor on their own to help me understand something going on with them. It really works to really help me, like, oh, I see what you're feeling with this, and I can really be with them there.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:21:10

And not try to fight it.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:11

Like Yeah, any metaphor imagery that, yeah, a client brings up is so I remember a client once talking, this was years ago, but it really stuck with me. This idea of grieving their parent. And it was the idea of like that grief will never go away. And it's like almost like calcified, or it's like turned to stone. Yeah. And it's in a field that's barren, and their life has like grown around it because they're trying to make meaning in their life in other ways. And but that stone is always just like there. It's and it was just like it was very powerful to think of like how slow that process is of just growth in general, but just like plant life or you know, nature growing around something that then it kind of becomes that thing. Yeah. And but you can always still see that stone. It's like there. And so I that was just a very I always remember that image of they're not saying they're not gonna grow, right? And they're not saying this part is not gonna be a part of them. It is gonna be a part of them, but they're gonna grow around it. Yeah. I really like that.

SPEAKER_06 1:22:18

I like that too. And there's something with it being like at the center there for them. Yeah. Yeah. I love this unwanted part. I guess I'm gonna be thinking about this going into the holidays a bit. You know, I've talked about this on the pod, like doing so many different types of therapy, like these core threads that like run through all of them, you know, are these like ideas of like choice points. Choice points, yeah. And really recognize, I mean, that's the wise mind, right? It's like slow down and notice like your options here. And even just noticing the options often awakens you to that infinite core part that's worthy and whole, that realizes like I can handle pain and what I want is meaning. And there'll be pain left and right if I try to avoid it. That's all I'll ever do. I just have to remember that.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:13

Well, so hard to do.

SPEAKER_06 1:23:16

My therapist and I, um, I haven't seen her in a book because she's been on maternity leave, but and I talk about this with Josh all the time. Like she and I came up with like colors kind of for like the wise mind part of me is like green and brown. It's kind of like earth colors, earth tones, yeah. Earth tones. And then like some of these like negative kind of energy fields around me are like red orange. I don't even know where that came from, but I just like sensed that. And she's like, just like notice like red orange coming into your world at times. And some a lot of times for me, it can be like people around me that are really like scarcity mindset and like gloom and doom. But it really, I can easily fuse with that. So it's like if I notice it as like, oh, this is red orange, or even like this is Myrv.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:09

Myrv.

SPEAKER_06 1:24:09

It's like, can I make some space and just remember green brown?

SPEAKER_03 1:24:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:24:13

I don't need to do anything with red orange, anything with MERV.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:16

Right.

SPEAKER_06 1:24:17

Except allow and and like trust in the green brown to handle this. Josh, any thoughts as a new person to the unwanted party guest?

SPEAKER_03 1:24:28

What if we kill Merv?

SPEAKER_04 1:24:30

Well, let's kill Merv.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:32

You know, there is a version of this metaphor where it's a block party and all your neighbors start to show up, and you're meeting all of your neighbors, and then they're like, oh man, thank God so-and-so is not here who lives at 33, whatever. And you're like, oh God, no, I invited that person. Everybody's like, no, you invited them. They're the worst. You're new to the neighborhood, like, you have no idea. And the choice point there is like, are you gonna cancel your party to try to like people please all of these guests and kind of save yourself from maybe that experience of like, oh, I threw the party, I made this faux pub inviting this neighbor that nobody likes. Or are you gonna like try to welcome this person because you're new, you've never met them. Yeah, you want to like show them. So there's a there's some different riffs with these metaphors where it's kind of like almost like a people pleasey type of vibe to it, where it's like, oh, all these people are putting pressure and to avoid the discomfort of really standing in, like, no, like I want to welcome everybody to my home. Like, I'm new to this neighborhood, you know. Like, that's I want to see how this plays out, and that would be meaningful to me. So there's a lot of different riffs, or you could kill Merv for sure.

SPEAKER_06 1:25:45

But but yeah, that I love that because even there's so many situations where that's useful too. Like, I'm even thinking at the holidays, like if you have family that's like really body critical. Oh, you're having another serving of that, you know, or whatever. Or you're staying with family and sometimes they're scrutinizing. It's like that part of you shouldn't be here. Can you say, like, I'm gonna welcome this despite this? Yeah. Like, what's my choice? Like, here's what they think.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:14

What do I think? What do I want to choose in this moment?

SPEAKER_06 1:26:18

Yeah, what's authentic to me?

SPEAKER_03 1:26:20

And that's the nice thing about these metaphors, too, is you can revisit them, you can morph them. And sometimes it it does take like, let's just sit on that and think about it, this idea and come back to it.

SPEAKER_06 1:26:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:33

And even if you name it, like this would be a great organic thing to riff on moving forward in therapy, like Merv. Like, we just came up with this great name for something that doesn't have such an emotional charge that it's like, oh, okay, tell me about your week, right? Okay, well, that sounds like Merv was maybe with you in that, you know, like so. Even this like experiential process of going through a metaphor, you have these great like moments of connection where you can call back on, and now we've named our unwelcome guests, and that unwelcome guest is somebody that we're gonna revisit and have, or maybe you're gonna tell me something you did, and Merv will really wasn't around. Oh my god, that's amazing, you know. Like all those things can start to happen and kind of like blossom in the therapy space.

SPEAKER_06 1:27:19

Totally. We've always said this like some of the cheesiest stuff works the best, yeah. Or the simplest stuff, like like a metaphor. It's like something you use with kids to like help them take some of their cognitive like schema and map it onto a new one really quickly. And yeah, it's like the mind does work like that. And to notice, like, let's call this inner discomfort like MERV when you think of it that way without a positive negative judgment, which is MIRV. You know, what do you notice? Is there space for MERV? Can you choose that?

SPEAKER_03 1:27:59

Yeah. And when people don't buy into the metaphor, you could even go down the path of like, I wonder if your unwelcome party guess is your thoughts telling you that like this is a waste of time, this metaphor. Or totally. Or, you know, so I wonder if that's your unwelcome party guess because it's yeah, you're putting a lot of energy into saying this isn't useful.

SPEAKER_06 1:28:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:20

And maybe if you just kind of allowed this, you know, some of those thoughts to be there and really tried to just engage with it, who knows what might come of it. Right. Yeah. So there's a lot of different ways you can go, you know, which that might just muddy the water, but no, I think I I think you're right.

SPEAKER_06 1:28:36

That's interesting. Yeah, the basic concept can, especially in a therapy setting, can really be mind in a lot of ways. But the core of it is so great, regardless, like whether you do that deeper diving or just think about it for yourself this holiday season. Think about it. Yeah. Okay. Should we move to our how wise is it?

SPEAKER_03 1:28:57

How wise is it question? Okay. How wise is it to keep lists.

SPEAKER_06 1:29:02

Keep lists, make lists, lists.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:05

Lists.

SPEAKER_06 1:29:09

I mean, I do it. I like them. You like them. Well, tell us.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:12

I like them. I think they're helpful for me. They're useful for me. Um I love having, I think there's also something to be said about just having like little notebooks. Yeah. I love a little, I love a field notes. Totally. I love that. You got me one. I did? Yeah. Which one did I get you?

SPEAKER_06 1:29:32

The one where it's I think it's over here, or maybe I really wrote in all of it. Sometimes when I start writing in it, I take it out in the public space.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:39

I love it. I love gifting them. I mean, it doesn't surprise me. Yeah. I just don't remember the one I got you.

SPEAKER_06 1:29:44

Yeah. It's like a little brown one.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:45

Was it? Yeah. Yeah. Love a field notes. Um and I I like the idea. I always like the idea of like written. Like oh yeah. Physically writing. I do have lists on my phone.

SPEAKER_06 1:29:59

Yeah. I just find it's not the same.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:01

I like it tangible. I really do. And I think it's I don't know. There's also something nostalgic about it. My grandfather who passed away this past year, he always, always, no matter what, had strips of paper, he would always wear a button-down shirt with a pocket and would always have pens and pencils around it, always had slips of paper. And if he thought of something or heard of something, take it out.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:25

Oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:27

So there's something very like honoring him, and also I do think it's just useful, but it would always just write stuff down.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:35

Oh, just to keep those notes. Something he heard, because he's like, I'm gonna forget this. Yeah. Or whatever.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:40

So I love that. I mean, I'll even do this thing where it's like I'm really into post-its, and it's like there's something about the post-it that it's like I like the list, but I also like that it's like disposable.

SPEAKER_07 1:30:53

Disposable.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:54

Like I'll write it and then chuck it, and like something about the act of that feels really good. You know what I'm not good at with lists?

SPEAKER_03 1:31:04

My grocery list.

SPEAKER_06 1:31:06

Yeah, I'm not great at all. Josh is good about that.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:08

What I mean by that is I make it, but I literally go blind to certain lines, and I'll get in my car, I'll take it out, and I'll be like, how that magically appeared here. It was not there in the store.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:22

I honestly believe sometimes it wasn't there. Yeah. That's the one time where I feel like, well, lists fail me. I don't know what it is. Maybe I'm too overstimulated in the grocery store and I miss stuff on it.

SPEAKER_06 1:31:33

I think it is like there is something about the grocery store and looking at a list. What did I do? It's like looking at a list and then like erasing each thing as you go is such a fucking pain in the ass. Yeah. And it's like you're kind of grocery stores can be so crowded. Right. And like I feel like, especially on art trips, like I run into a million people, and it's like every time I run into someone, I'm like, oh, I'm sorry. And they're like scowling and then walking away. I'm like, well, this is a hostile environment. So it's like you kind of want to be in and out. In and out. So you're just like, yeah, I think I got everything on the list. And then, or you like glance at the list. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:09

I think it's so useful to have it when you go into the store. And I'm pretty strategic with that.

SPEAKER_06 1:32:13

Yeah. For some reason.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:15

I have like a one spot.

SPEAKER_06 1:32:17

Yeah. If we go to the same place, I do it more by section. And I'm like, all the normal things I get in this section. But you know what I will forget are the things you don't get every week. Every week, yeah. Things that are, oh, two months later it ran out. Right. I mean, we we left like four of those things this last time, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:32:35

Some of them were things we get every week. Oh, yeah, the lemons. I think it was mostly things we get every week. I do that all the time.

SPEAKER_06 1:32:41

Well, the agave, no.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:43

It was a mix.

SPEAKER_06 1:32:45

The the coffee creamer, no.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:47

I was late to the party because I was making a phone call in the car and I joined you five minutes late and it threw off our whole rhythm.

SPEAKER_06 1:32:53

I mean, yeah, it's like I get in there alone, and it's like a metal lobotomy. Yeah. Where do I start? I'm like, and then it's like also like I think we were like so proud of ourselves for getting most of our groceries this week at Trader Joe's on Sunday. And we went, we did a six-hour drive and then drove right to Trader Joe's in, you know, 17 degree weather. Yep. And did our I mean, we were like applauding ourselves up and down for that. We were off our routine, we went into Whole Foods, and we were kind of like, we basically don't need anything here and like cut too. Like we missed five things that we do need.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:27

We got a lot of things.

SPEAKER_06 1:33:28

Yeah, we got a lot of things, not everything.

unknown 1:33:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:31

Week's been going, week's been going smooth. Yeah. Gonna go to the grocery store tomorrow to get what we missed.

SPEAKER_06 1:33:37

Well, we're also we're gonna get our Hanukkah stuff. Yeah, I gotta get it. We're having a Hanukkah party with John's family.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:47

And there's gonna be lists galore because I'm already keeping a list of what I gotta bring to the party.

SPEAKER_06 1:33:51

I mean, we're all gonna be making lists. Josh, how do you feel about that?

SPEAKER_03 1:33:53

I can't live without a list. I don't, yeah, Josh, how do you?

SPEAKER_02 1:33:55

I mean I I love lists. I think it can border on unhealthy.

SPEAKER_06 1:33:59

Yeah, tell us.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:00

My obsession. Well, on my phone, I have and I it's funny because I feel like I'm an analog person. I get very concerned about waste, which is probably why I don't write a lot of handwritten notes. I think emotionally it could feel good, but and then I worry about like cluttering the space. Yeah. So I keep them on my phone because it feels clean and I have a low carbon footprint. Sure. Both, you know, with my with my partner and with the environment. Yeah. But I but so it's not like I necessarily prefer a phone list. Anyway, let's move on. But um I wrap to my to my moving on to me. Yeah. But I I love a list. I have a list that I started actually when I moved to Chicago three years ago called Move in Checklist, and it was my move in checklist to move to Chicago.

SPEAKER_06 1:34:55

Oh my god, I remember this.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:57

It's still my list. It's become my running list.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:00

The title of his list is move in checklist.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:03

If you look at it, it is overwhelming. Like it is a what do you call uh what do you call a um what are the things like a web chart of like every thought I've ever had, basically. Like and there's things dating back to like three years ago that if I looked at that, things I have on five times, like get rechargeable batteries, get rechargeable batteries.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:26

Yeah, you always need rechargeable batteries.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:28

And then it's like I have them. We're using them on the pod. But you could always use more. Yeah. We're using them for this mic I'm talking into. Yeah, yeah. Um, but like I kind of shuffle around the order, but really I'm only playing with like the top tenth, and I have this theory like, oh, when I'm like between jobs at some point, I'm gonna go and like clean up the list. I've never done that. Yeah. Well, that's not true. I've done that once, and it was like two years ago, and the list was still pretty long. So it's it's interesting. It's like a form of emotional hoarding slash like but also I like don't look at the stuff and it feels like it's not taking up real space. Like all this, like basically the bottom, like eight tenths of the list. So I could scroll through it, but it's got I'll I'll shuffle the top, and a lot of the time, like before bed, I'll kind of look at my notes and I'll like reshuffle the order, and I'll be like, okay, these are things I definitely want to get to tomorrow, or like things that seem fun, and below that is like stuff that's like a little less fun or like doesn't need to get done, or maybe something I'm really looking forward to, like make John a you know a half birthday playlist. Yeah, that better be nice. But I won't put it like at the top of the list because I'm like, maybe that's my reward if I like get through a few things. So I'll kind of like curate my list in a way that like makes me excited to do the day. And then as I go, I'll like check things off, and then obviously I add like just as many to the list every day. And yeah, it just keeps expanding.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:56

Yeah, I mean, I think I kind of fall into that as well. Like, I don't have a bunch of different titles for my lists. Yeah, I have one list, right? I kind of have like one main one. I'm I'm thinking about my phone.

SPEAKER_05 1:37:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:11

One like main one that I consistently just add things to or take things off and edit it. So I'm with you on that. But uh when I'm at my desk or even at home, I love the paper and the pencil. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:37:25

The daily lists for me are daily.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:27

I like those. But like the like life lifelong lists, lifelong list goals.

SPEAKER_06 1:37:32

Yeah, I call it my master-to-do list. Master to do labeled, master and commander. And mine's weird because it's like mine is so weird because the top two sections, like the highest part and the lowest part of the list, are things I almost never look at. And I just look at the middle and I put them the the items that are necessary, like imminent, yeah, semi-imminent that I haven't done yet, have a check mark.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:01

See, so I mean that's no, that's not see what this is, this is a great idea for somebody's probably already thought of it, for like a a coffee table book. Yeah. Of like one page is a picture of how somebody cultivates their list, and then the page next to it is a description of how they engage with their list.

SPEAKER_06 1:38:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:22

I would think that's so interesting to notice how people call me boring, but I think that would be amazing. Like whether it's digital, a picture of their digital list or a picture of the notes that they keep, their bullet journal, whatever.

SPEAKER_06 1:38:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:36

Because I think I just think it's how people's minds work. That's so fascinating to me. Like how they well, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:38:42

It's like, why do I do it like that? Where it's like that weird middle chunk. And then it's like my daily. But it makes sense to you. So what makes sense to me? Yeah. It must have started like slowly. But then it's like the main things that like like little crib notes for my, then like chart notes for clients. Like, I like to put a lot of that on a on a post-it and get rid of get rid of it.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:03

Yeah. And we want to say a TikTok.

SPEAKER_06 1:39:06

A TikTok. That's like put it on a tick tack. Yeah, put all my notes on TikTok. No, like, you know, just like jot it down, and then it's like there's something freeing about like tossing it.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:39:18

But then it's like, I also like sometimes it's a long note, and there's like three post-its and it's like a three post-it series.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:23

Yeah, you love a post-I remember that from the office. You love really just growing it. It's like a plan. So you come in in the afternoon, it's like five together that are like they've grown limbs. Yeah, I remember that now that you mention it.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:38

It's overwhelming to think I'm gonna write a bunch of notes right now about something, but then I start to get inspired, and then it's like, well, so it's like clue clued together six posts.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:48

I'm not a big post-it person, but I like I appreciate people who use them and I like the idea. Yeah. I love seeing like a movie where what's that movie where Oscar back to him. Oscar Isaac develops the AI w woman.

SPEAKER_06 1:40:05

Ex Machina.

SPEAKER_03 1:40:07

Yeah. In that movie, his office is just basically a computer and then a wall of post-it notes. And it's like for some reason that's really appealing to me. Like somebody who has that many thoughts, but they're all somewhat important. Yeah. And that's like my office. It looks like a mess, but it's somehow organized in their brain. Yeah. I never do that at all, but I I can appreciate the way that that feels like wow. Like these are some big things going on here. Totally. But I never even.

SPEAKER_06 1:40:34

I have it like the side of my dresser, like next to where I see.

SPEAKER_03 1:40:38

Is it only yellow?

SPEAKER_06 1:40:39

No, they're all different colors, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:40:40

Oh, okay. You don't really care the color. You don't have a strong opinion about that.

SPEAKER_06 1:40:44

No, I mean I'm sure there's a color I would dislike, but I haven't really found it yellow. Yeah. But I'll like, because I like also like straight. Know what to get Kelly. Yeah. Post-its. Even also, like, I would accept bigger post-its. Ooh. Because I think they like jumbo ones.

SPEAKER_03 1:40:59

Would you reject smaller post-its?

SPEAKER_06 1:41:01

Yeah, I can't get any smaller posts.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:03

By the way, but there are ones that are so tiny that I don't even really understand the purpose of those.

SPEAKER_06 1:41:07

They must just be like a bookmark.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:09

A bookmark. That's the only thing I can think of. Like you put it on a page just to yeah. Yeah, like a tab. Like you're not writing anything on that thing. No. You could write like six, seven.

SPEAKER_06 1:41:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:19

You totally could write six, seven.

SPEAKER_06 1:41:22

But yeah, that is a really interesting thing. Well, we all obviously love lists. I love lists. I think they're pretty wise.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:28

I I do think there is a threshold though where I think we've probably seen this a little bit, maybe in the therapy space, where they can make people extremely anxious.

SPEAKER_06 1:41:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:38

Or then people are creating lists to organize their lists. And you know, it again it could have that flair of a little obsessive or a little also just trying to control anxiety by writing a lot of stuff down, but not really making any moves in any one direction or a direction. So yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:41:56

Um and I, you know, it's like I I'm on the end where it's like I could probably be a little more dedicated to the list. Me too.

unknown 1:42:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:42:04

And I maybe you're on the opposite end where you could like hold it a little more lightly.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:09

Well, it's like sometimes like I feel like you'll be watching on TikTok or Instagram and you'll see a brunch place, for instance. Like this happened tonight. And I I can't remember the name of it, but you were like, oh, this place we need to go to. And I used to like anytime you said that, I'd be like, oh, text me, like in the car, and then when I got home, I'd like put it on a list of restaurants. Yeah. I I feel like I've like trained myself to be less obsessive with that because it starts to become. I think when it's not wise is when it starts to like you were saying, John, like when it starts to like produce more anxiety, then it's maybe Yeah. Not like preventing, because I don't know that my list, like the main purpose is to prevent anxiety, but the wisdom in it I think is like it's like before it's like the end of the night, and I'm like organizing the list and it feels fun. And then I like look at it in the morning and I'm like, oh, I like curated this so I could wake up this morning and look at my list and like be excited. Like I think it's like owning the list and not letting it own you.

SPEAKER_06 1:43:07

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:07

So you look at the list every night. No, just like I'm acting like I do this every night, but it's like I'm just trying to think of my list at its best. Oh when I feel like I'm really fusing. I know. Like when when I feel when when it feels really wise. When it feels wise is like when I yeah, when I'm feeling like amped.

SPEAKER_05 1:43:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:27

And I'm enjoying and same with music. I mean, we haven't even talked about this. Music year endless.

SPEAKER_05 1:43:31

Oh, yeah, because you do make some.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:34

And I get so much joy out of it, and I rearrange them and I write an album down, but like sometimes I can notice I'm like getting like too obsessed with the list, and like where an album falls on the list, and like, ooh, I added a new album to my list, and like I realize I'm like not even listening to or enjoying the music. Yeah, it's this like feeling of like here's all these like albums, and I feel powerful.

SPEAKER_06 1:43:54

Oh I can rank them. I have power over them.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:57

Yeah, we're gonna get my friend Tommy on the podcast at one point, and there is a moment in college where I feel like creating the catalog, the list of music that he had was more important than actually knowing the album or even listening to it. Yeah, which I totally get. Like, cause there there is a part of me that would love to catalog or list all of the records I have.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:19

Yeah, have that knowledge and just like know where it is.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:22

It's on a master thing. If somebody asks, what do you have this album? I could just like go to it and things like that. I would love that. I I haven't done it, but sometimes it does turn into the making of the list takes you away from like enjoying the thing the list is about.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:37

That's it.

SPEAKER_03 1:44:37

And it's a very fine line. It is a fine line.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:40

Because I do think ultimately making these year end lists has like enhanced my enjoyment of music and like really made me like nerd out on it in a way. Like I it's almost this like physical embodiment of how much I love music that gives me joy to make and to look at. But then there's moments where I'm like, ooh, this is getting kind of gross. This is getting a little gross list. Like, I'll like switch like the places of two albums and I'll be like, do undo, do, undo, do, undo. And I'm like, oh, did I like accidentally delete one? And I'm like, what if I forget?

unknown 1:45:14

Love it.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:15

Your OCD, your Merv is your OCD at the moment.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:18

Merv Griffin is in the house. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:20

Asking you, are you sure you didn't delete something that was there?

SPEAKER_02 1:45:23

Yeah, yes, there's still 75. So there were 75 at the beginning and then at the end. So whatever happened in the middle, there's still 75. And that's what matters. I didn't lose an album.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:32

Merv. Thanks, Merv. Merv Josh? Are you absolutely sure that's Merv?

SPEAKER_02 1:45:38

Uh yeah, well, what is never mind. We don't need to. I like didn't want to get into what my Merv is.

SPEAKER_05 1:45:44

Well, we can, I mean, you can. I have a lot of Mervs. You can think on it if you have thoughts on it.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:48

Obviously, my anxiety, but then there's all these like sub Mervs. Oh, yeah. For all of us. Yes. Merv misses.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:54

Merv children.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:55

Merv children. Yeah. What do you think my Merv is?

SPEAKER_04 1:45:59

OCD.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:01

And your main one. It's simple as that.

SPEAKER_04 1:46:03

Your main bitch. My main bitch. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:06

Is there a particular br brand of OCD? Let's just call it OCD. Oh, well, that's easy. Done. And we'll talk more about that. Yeah, I don't really want to talk about anything. You're the two hosts.

SPEAKER_03 1:46:23

Perfect.

SPEAKER_04 1:46:24

Perfect. Okay, well, that is our episode.

SPEAKER_03 1:46:27

So we covered a lot of ground. We figured it all out. It's like a holiday app. Holiday app. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:46:33

Yeah. Okay, so if you want to reach me, you can find me at kkpsychotherapy.com. If you want to work with me, you have questions, you have topics for the pod. You can also check out my TikTok at wisemindh pod. See me posting posting clips of the podcast, like posting things around wisemind and all this stuff. And what about you, John?

SPEAKER_03 1:46:56

Uh you can email me at botsbutz.jonathan at gmail.com. Josh.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:01

All right. Uh you can find me at joshbayerfilms.com. Bayer is in the aspirin. I'm really booking up for the year pretty quickly. Uh, I'm about to have no availability. So if you want me to edit anything, you'd better get to it quickly. You can text me, you got the number.

SPEAKER_05 1:47:18

Okay, and thank you, blanket for it.

SPEAKER_03 1:47:20

Yes, blanket for it. Thank you very much. Until next time, happy holidays. Happy holidays. Bye.

SPEAKER_06 1:47:30

The WiseMind Happy Hour podcast is for entertainment purposes only, not to be treated as medical advice. If you are struggling with your mental health, please seek medical attention or counseling.