the best of WISE MIND HAPPY HOUR (Vol.1)

Whether you've been with us from the start or you're just tuning in, there's no better time than now to vibe with us to our favorite moments from our first four episodes...more highlights to come!

- music by blanket forts -

Transcript

Welcome And Show Concept

SPEAKER_04 0:05

Okay, so welcome to the wise mind happy hour, everyone. Yeah, everyone. Yeah, welcome. We'd like to thank DJ Blanket For it for gifting us some intro music.

SPEAKER_03 0:20

100%. And of course, our lovely producer, yes, Josh Bear.

SPEAKER_04 0:26

King Josh Bear.

SPEAKER_03 0:28

We love the house.

SPEAKER_04 0:30

Thank you so much for editing everyone. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_03 0:33

Yes, 100%. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 0:35

So yeah, that's the purpose of this episode. We're gonna intro our concept here. So I mean, maybe we should start with happy hour. What do you know a happy hour to be?

SPEAKER_03 0:46

Happy hour is a place where friends gather after work.

SPEAKER_06 0:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 0:50

Maybe two hours, maybe appetizers, a lot of drinks. Yeah. Special. Discount rate. Discount rate. Uh yeah, just a place to gather, have fun, decompress, relax.

SPEAKER_04 1:04

So, yeah, the reason we're using this term is because we're gonna be obviously talking about clinical topics.

SPEAKER_03 1:10

Yes. Boring.

Meet John And Kelly

SPEAKER_04 1:12

Boring snooze, who cares? Um, no, we care. Even if you don't care, we care. You'll you'll see that. But we also don't want it to be too stuffy, too formal. We do enough of that. Right. So yeah, we want it to be like talking about clinical concepts at a happy hour with drinks, with coffee. I don't know if a coffee happy hour is a thing, but if it isn't, it depends on when you're it depends on when the happy hour happens. Yeah, yeah. Any hour can be happy and this one's going to be. Yes. Okay, so that's the happy hour piece, the wise mind piece. Basically, the core clinical concept we're gonna explore in this podcast. So, and we John and I, well, maybe we'll back up and go into our intros. Yeah. And talk a little bit about ourselves. Yeah, do you want to tell everyone your background?

SPEAKER_03 2:05

Yes, background, John. Therapist, a counselor. Um, yeah, I've been doing this for 20 years.

SPEAKER_04 2:12

I am uh I'm Kelly. I'm a licensed clinical social worker. I've been a therapist now for 10 years. Because I wow yeah, yeah, because at 2014 is when I graduated grad school.

SPEAKER_03 2:27

Yeah, but we met before we worked together in group therapy. Um intensive group therapy. How we met. How we met, yes.

SPEAKER_04 2:35

And then we worked on the same team.

SPEAKER_03 2:36

Then we worked on the same team.

SPEAKER_04 2:38

I used to work more with young adults. That's right, yes, which I did like, but I also really like working with adults, like a larger range of like big kids, as you might say.

SPEAKER_03 2:49

Big kids, yeah. Well, the interesting thing is be I as I said, 20 years, the the further I get away from the young adults, the more unrelatable I feel like I am.

SPEAKER_04 2:58

Well, they do keep you young. They do they well to me, it's like I know the lingo I think they keep me feeling old. It's like both.

SPEAKER_03 3:06

I don't know if they keep me young as much as they keep me feeling like, wow, I have no idea what they're talking about.

SPEAKER_02 3:12

What is this?

SPEAKER_03 3:14

What is a Twitter?

SPEAKER_02 3:16

Why are his pants so short? Why are they cut that way?

SPEAKER_03 3:18

Why are it because he's cool? Right. Yeah, like why are they wearing such odd clothing? Yeah, and it's like it's not odd.

SPEAKER_04 3:27

That's what people wear now. That's how you fit in.

SPEAKER_03 3:30

That's how you fit in. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:31

So just yeah, so yeah, so then yeah, we met in group therapy, and then I did a little individual therapy on the side, and now I do that full time, pretty much. But yeah, we missed our coworker relationship, or at least I can speak for myself. Absolutely, 100% that for sure.

SPEAKER_03 3:47

And we figured this is a great form to reopen it. And yeah, like and if anybody wants to know what the the dynamic was in the office, because Kelly and I shared an office, the dynamic was I would come in or she would come in, and it would be hello, that was the that's the Kelly. Yeah, hello, and then pretty much within five minutes, it was so I was listening to a podcast, John. And so, you know, I uh Kelly has a huge repertoire of podcasts that she's listened to, and I'm gonna add it. It was always a great nugget of, and that that was one of the things I really liked about our working relationship, is you were so well versed in so many different things.

SPEAKER_01 4:29

Oh, that's nice.

SPEAKER_03 4:30

And I feel like I was, but there was always like a like whenever we would talk, there was always like, oh, did you read this book or did you do this? And I feel like that really it was like, Oh, I need to like, I need to like do some more research.

Emotion Mind, Reasonable Mind, Wise Mind

SPEAKER_04 4:44

Well, but but you always have a take and a really interesting perspective on things because I would say this, because you're very connected to yourself and you really do know yourself, and I would say, like, in a lot of ways, are great at accepting yourself. Foibles and all. I mean, but that's really to me, and speaking of wise mind, a huge piece of accessing your wise mind is self-acceptance. Yes, that's that getting to that place of wholeness, and you really you like you can do it even like come hell or high water in situations where I would like fully abandon myself and just be like anything, I'm scared, you know, like especially work situations where you're being like pressured by a boss or something. Yeah, you know, you're very good at like, no, I'm standing firm. Yeah, yeah. Firm. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:34

I like to be firm on a take.

SPEAKER_04 5:36

Yeah, yeah, you are firm.

SPEAKER_03 5:38

Passionate on a take.

SPEAKER_04 5:40

And I'm passionate too. Sometimes, like to a fault myself. Like so much passionate. I'm like, not listening to anyone but myself. Well, that's all right. But that is wrong in those situations. They're all pretty much just wrong.

SPEAKER_03 5:54

Obviously, they're wrong.

SPEAKER_04 5:55

Yeah. So, okay, so that's us. That those are our backgrounds.

SPEAKER_03 5:58

That's us, yes.

SPEAKER_04 6:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:00

But we're also real people. I have a family.

SPEAKER_04 6:03

Yeah, tell us about your fam.

SPEAKER_03 6:05

Uh, you know, they're okay. No, I um beautiful wife, lovely wife, who's also in the field, which is great. That we can talk about these concepts as well, social worker. And then my two, my two boys. One just turned nine, my oldest, and then my youngest. I know. And my youngest is gonna be seven in October. Wow. Which is wise. Yeah, really wise.

SPEAKER_04 6:29

That's the wisest age.

SPEAKER_03 6:30

The wisest age. Seven number seven. It's just such a balance, biblically perfect. Yeah, I mean, there's no really issues with them ever. My life is, yeah. So, yeah, so my family life, which is uh great, it's always changing, which is fun and really keeps you on your toes. So, in a struggle, I mean, yeah, it is you're working every day.

SPEAKER_04 6:57

Yeah, and I imagine like finding your wise mind as a dad.

SPEAKER_03 7:02

Yes, I'm shaking my head. Yeah, I'm shaking my head. Nobody can see this, but it's so hard. Yeah, I can imagine so many emotions, and you're drafting off so many emotions, and the children are much more at times in their emotion mind, which like pulls you into that emotional place. And for me, at least personally, that more like, ugh, I want to react then, and it's like really hard to be like okay, level. You do um Sarah was telling me, my wife was telling me that there's this idea of like the pilot on the plane, right? And like you're as a parent, you're like the pilot, right? You're like taking the family in a direction. You don't want the pilot to like come back into the cabin and be like, oh my god, you know, like what do you do? You know, that type of thing, because it's like then they're gonna be panicking. It's turbulence, right? And that's not my my wife's concept. Um, but you know, from a lot of the books and literature we've read. But like the idea is like you gotta come in with that wisess, you gotta come in with that, yes, the emotion, but also like let's play it calm a little bit, like, because even if we're in turbulence, like they're gonna draft off you, right? Which is hard for me to not draft off them in those moments, right?

SPEAKER_04 8:14

Yeah, no, and you're I I you're using terms we'll get into, like emotion mind, right, which is a big piece of it. But yeah, you know what's funny that you say this about like kids in their emotion mind yesterday, out of nowhere, we were my fiance, Josh, and I have this some of my background. I have a fiance, Josh, who's doubling as our podcast producer, essentially, and editor, man of all trades, man of all trades, and a wonderful guy. Um, we he and I hosted my nieces, my brother's three daughters, and the eldest niece, who just turned four, she all of a sudden out of nowhere recited something she learned at school, which was like squeeze yourself nice and slow, take a deep breath, let it go. Oh. Which is like, I think almost like a way that they teach her at um daycare to like reset and like maybe find her wise mind. She kind of said it out of nowhere. And I was like, oh, I wonder if she's like overwhelmed in this moment. You know, like something is like it was loud in here, and the other two were like running around screaming, but it was cute. It was like take me to a happy place. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:23

Take me out of me out of this moment.

SPEAKER_04 9:28

So we can maybe we can get into that kind of like definition. Yes. So yeah, the term wise mind is the core concept.

SPEAKER_03 9:35

And wait, can I get it?

SPEAKER_04 9:37

Can I get clinical? I think we need the like clinical mind. We need a little clinicalness here.

SPEAKER_03 9:41

Okay, let's get stuffy. So wise mind is a core concept in dialectical behavior therapy. It represents a balance between the emotional mind and the reasonable mind. So understanding the three minds, emotion mind is driven by feelings and at the same time intuition. Reasonable mind uh is based on logic, facts, and analysis.

SPEAKER_04 10:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:05

And then wise mind is a harmonious blend of emotion and reason, leading to balanced decisions.

SPEAKER_04 10:14

Yeah, so you can almost picture like a classic Ment diagram. Right.

SPEAKER_03 10:18

Yes, those two circles overlapping that middle place is that wise. Yeah. Definitely.

SPEAKER_04 10:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:24

Um, it also says here, ooh, the benefits of wise mind. Do we want to think about those? Yeah, let's talk about it. Improved decision making. Ooh, by considering both emotions and logic.

SPEAKER_04 10:34

Yeah.

Parenting As The Pilot In Turbulence

SPEAKER_03 10:35

Enhanced problem solving, finding solutions that are both practical and emotionally satisfying.

SPEAKER_04 10:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:41

Increased self-awareness, which I think that probably speaks to, well, I guess I'll speak for myself. That kind of speaks to me. Yeah. Like the decision making and problems don't be great, but right the self-awareness is recognizing when you're in emotional or a reasonable mind and striving for balance, right? So that idea of like, if we want to move towards effectiveness or like life worth living, or just happiness, I feel like it's that self-awareness and then better relationships, communicating effectively by understanding your own and others' perspectives. Yeah. Totally. That resonates for me, all of that stuff. I think I just personally, full disclosure. Yeah. I am not a therapist, actually. No, I'm kidding. I am a therapist. That was a joke. Um I don't have a license. I actually am not qualified to be on this podcast. No, um, I think, just overall in my life, I do lean into the reasonable and rational. I just am. Like, and so I think that for me, though I am what I feel is a pretty empathic, emotionally aware person. I just think, like, at a base level, I do lean more towards that logic. I lean more towards that reasonable. And so I think that's just always gonna be um, not that it can't change, but always a gross edge for me. That's just me, I think. I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 11:59

Where do you think you're but that's funny that you say that because and Josh is my fancy sitting right here? But you know, shout out I'm an incredibly to a fault emotional person. Like when I'm worried about something, or maybe more poignantly, angry about something, the whole room can feel it. Sure. And I really can like go if something is like bothering me or I'm worried about something, I mean, I can go from zero to like the world is crumbling, and I'm like on my knees in excruciating emotional pain. I I really think that I my growth edge for me is to like be with my emotion mind and not let it overwhelm me. Yeah, truly, like, and and that's a big piece of accepting myself is like this is never going away. Yes. And you can think of it from so many perspectives. Like, I'm a Pisces, notoriously extremely emotional. Here we go.

SPEAKER_03 12:57

Here we go. I you know, the first episode I thought we could avoid the zodiac, but okay, wait, like curiosity, we can't avoid it.

SPEAKER_01 13:05

Let me get on my life chart.

SPEAKER_04 13:07

I mean, I think for me, how much my type is my experience, I just I have to bring it in here. And I know some people are gonna fully tune out of the podcast if I go far too far into this.

SPEAKER_01 13:19

We have a full season dedicated to charting to our stars.

unknown 13:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:24

Well, and I even think that, and not that it was ever conflictual, but like even in our dynamic in the office, I feel like there were some tense moments where it would be like, because I lean more rational, logic, problem solving, and you were maybe in that place for whatever reason, there was like this like tension in the room because it was like I was trying to like what I thought was be effective, fixer, logic, give me the you know, give you the reasons or whatever, like that. And that's the thing with my kids, yeah. Like Sarah, my wife will tell me all the time, it's like you're like talking to them as if like they're gonna understand this logical like thing. And it's like in this moment, I feel like that's so helpful for them because I'm like, oh my god, they're so emotional. Let me break it down for them from like a logic perspective. They can't hear any, I might as well be speaking another language, right? And so it's like I have to like catch that because they're like thoughts that are telling me, like, well, just say something smart, and that'll be what the is the antidote to this situation. Like, John, you're a smart dad, you're a smart guy, you'll be able to do this. And it's like, that is an absurd thought to be fusing with right now. Like, smart has nothing.

SPEAKER_04 14:33

You can do that.

SPEAKER_03 14:34

Listen, you're polished, like you shaved today, it's great. Like, you can do this. It's like that is not a helpful thought to fuse with either. Like, just because like you have like some life experience, and like you could drop like something on a child to be like, well, you know, actually, it's like that's not helpful in this situation at all. Like, yeah, I just need to be with them, I just need to be in these emotion places because I'm speaking to them as if they're even able to one understand what I'm saying, but two, able to even access that. They're like on 10 right now in that emotional place, you know.

SPEAKER_04 15:07

Let's just be with this first. Well, and also I like what you said. I think this is wisdom. This is even beyond like the concept of wise mind, but I think wisdom is a lot of like knowing when to say less. Yes. And do less and just kind of be in a moment, right? It's like I almost think feel like it's like a cliche that wisdom is like succinct.

SPEAKER_03 15:28

Well, you know what's interesting too? They bring that up a lot, like to talk about popular culture, but like when something like in sports happens, like epic, yeah, they they they kind of talk about like don't say anything. Let the moment kind of like unfold, right? Like an like an epic win or things like that, and they'll say that like broadcasters kind of like not that they ruin it, that's a harsh word, but it's like just let it let it sink in. Yeah, like choose your words, or just don't say anything and just kind of let it, because like people like over talk it, you know, and that type of stuff. Yeah, it's be like just be. Just be.

SPEAKER_04 16:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:03

Just like let this sink in.

SPEAKER_01 16:05

Yeah. Totally. Well, I love how I brought up astrology. You brought up sports. Listen, this is gonna turn into we're gonna do a season on the NBA, and then we're gonna do a season. Yeah, I forgot I like the NBA.

SPEAKER_03 16:16

Sports, yeah. Sport balls.

SPEAKER_01 16:17

This is now a sports partner.

SPEAKER_04 16:18

I'm glad I wore my jersey here.

SPEAKER_01 16:20

Yeah, yeah. You do dress up.

SPEAKER_04 16:22

You're fully dressed as if you're about to like hit the cord.

SPEAKER_01 16:24

Yes, sweatbands. That's what I'm doing after this.

SPEAKER_06 16:27

Yeah.

Self-Acceptance And Personal Tendencies

SPEAKER_03 16:29

Kelly and I are not an authority on everything. Almost anything. Almost anything, really. Yes. I myself included. And so we we just like throwing these concepts around.

SPEAKER_04 16:40

Yeah, this is not like direct therapy advice or medical advice on this podcast. Sports advice. Sports advice. Well, yeah, yeah, no, no sports advice either. Yeah, we're we're doing a bit of like curiously dialoguing about this stuff. We are gonna discover things ourselves in talking about it with each other and our guests. 100%. Um, and that's what we want to do. But yeah, we want to talk about the wise mind. We wanna, you know, explore this concept from so many different angles, kind of endless angles.

SPEAKER_03 17:10

And hopefully have fun with it. And also just think about some nonsense out there that's just fun to talk about.

SPEAKER_04 17:16

And we're gonna bring in like our day-to-day experiences and like if wise mind came up there, we might just selfishly talk about them because we want to chit-chat.

SPEAKER_03 17:25

Yes, all that kind of stuff. Which again, and we were talking about this before the cast, was because recently I just went to Back to the Future, the musical.

SPEAKER_01 17:35

Oh yes, which was amazing.

SPEAKER_03 17:38

I can't say enough about it. It's here in Chicago for two weeks, and well, a little date night, it was great. What I wasn't expecting was that it was actually kind of long. I that movie is kind of long, yeah. It's like a two-hour movie. Yeah, for the back then, two-hour movie was long, and they did such a great job with it, and the special effects were great. But there's a there's a very strong part of me that wants to think that going back in time to like right wrongs is wise. And everything about that musical is like it is absolutely an alpha. Back in time because you're gonna, it's literally anxiety from jump straight when you get back in time. It's like I'm stuck here, I can't get back, yeah, and then you meet your family, yeah, and then your mom falls in love with you, and it just is not talking about Freud. Talk about Freud, it all comes full circle, but nothing about it is wise. But there's something I feel like it like in my mind that is like, no, but you could like write so many things, or you could like write you know wrongs or something, but it's just not that wise. No, it just not a wise decision.

SPEAKER_04 18:44

No, I know everybody wants to or dreams of that, and then it's like you go back there and you're like, I can't Google anything, and it like it's like, oh, my mom fell in love with me.

SPEAKER_03 18:53

Not good. Not great.

SPEAKER_02 18:57

Yeah, not not what I was hoping for.

SPEAKER_04 18:59

My mom falls in love with me and she tries to get together with me. What becomes of me? So back to the future, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:06

It's just not wise.

SPEAKER_04 19:07

Yeah. Josh and I yesterday.

SPEAKER_03 19:12

Um Shout out Josh, our producer.

SPEAKER_04 19:14

Shout out Josh. Um, we went, I had a meltdown a little bit. I we went to this restaurant slash bar to meet our friends who had a baby. Um and we were waiting on them because the baby had napped later, and and so they were like not gonna be able to come at the original time. So we were just sitting there like having a drink. It was like afternoon, and there was only one little corner of this already occupied table that we could sit at at the time, and the sun was like blazing on us. You know, those like times where you're at a table, you're just like squinting your eyes, and it's a nightmare.

SPEAKER_06 19:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:52

But actually, this very friendly guy was like, Come on over and sit. We took the biggest table, like, which was really nice. I made a note to Appreciate that. I was like, what a nice person. But we sat down and it was like pretty uncomfortable, like right away, where we're like, it's like beating on us. So eventually this ideal table opened up. And it's like I had a choice to make, right? Where it's like I could run over there and just sit, even before they'd cleaned up the table. But in my mind, that wasn't like proper protocol. So I was like, you know what? I'm just gonna flag down the server and say, like, hey, we have two friends coming in, they have a baby and a stroller. Could we snag that table? So I did that. And the server was kind of this like meek hipstery guy who was like, Yeah, you know, like I'll um make sure to get that table cleaned up for you, and then you can head on over there. And I was like, great. So I sat down with Josh, and then immediately these three people come in and just sit down there. Yeah, I straight up lose it. Because I'm like, is he gonna discourage them from going over there? Is he gonna tell them to get up? Is he gonna whatever? Is he gonna hold the boundaries? I mean, but I had this like extreme suffering. I really did have this like extreme suffering where I was like, you know, in this life, you do the right thing, you get punished. Yeah, like where I was like really.

SPEAKER_03 21:20

Oh, yeah, no good deed goes unpunished, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_04 21:22

Yeah, and then it's like I really was like, it shouldn't be this way, it shouldn't be like this. Like the person who just barges in and sits shouldn't get the best table in the house. Yeah, like that's wrong. Like, I and I suffered about it, and poor Josh, for like a good 15 minutes where I was like, I just kept saying to him, I was like, I'm pissed. Like, I'm pissed. And I was just like so.

SPEAKER_03 21:45

Wait, so the finish this so the people just sat there and nothing happened.

SPEAKER_04 21:48

So they just sat there and nothing happened. The waiter who had like a big promised us this table just didn't. I think they were just a little bit passive, like that's kind of how they work, but and maybe the waiter was busy with other people.

SPEAKER_03 22:00

Yeah, I was very busy this place.

SPEAKER_04 22:02

But then the table next to them opened up, and Josh and I just rushed over there, and then the waiter was like, I'm glad you guys could get this table. That's kind of how we like gloss.

SPEAKER_03 22:11

So wait a second, so you had a co like a complete corrective experience in real time where you guys, instead of waiting on him, then rush to the table. Yeah, it came full circle for you.

Back To The Future Isn’t Wise

SPEAKER_04 22:20

Yeah, that's kind of wild. I did get to a place before that new table opened up where I was like, you know what, this is what it is. Like, yeah, let go. But I really like and I let it go into other zones of my like anger and was like, there was a wise mind there that I was kind of refusing for a bit. That was like, you're Kelly, you're really dealing with the situation you wish you were in, yeah, not the one you are in.

SPEAKER_01 22:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:49

And I was like, yeah, I'm just gonna stay there for a minute here and just rage. And I just like verbalized over and over to Josh how pissed I was. I was just like, this isn't right. This isn't how it should be. It shouldn't be like this. It should be if you do the right thing, you shouldn't get removed.

SPEAKER_03 23:04

Now, would it have been a wise mind move to get up and address those people? Well, that's a great question. Like, would it have been like, I'm gonna commit to my value of whatever the values are that are associated with it, and I am gonna like not lean into these people, yeah, and just say, you know what, we had asked this lovely waiter over here to say this table for us. Like, what would that have been like?

SPEAKER_04 23:27

Now, I definitely think I would have like shadow around them thinking I was like a Karen and like in this cool hipster bar. I was just like, oh, I can't look like that.

SPEAKER_03 23:38

Which I already was that essentially, like just to Josh privately, like flipping out like the entitlement, the yeah, yeah, like or like, oh yeah, actually, excuse me.

SPEAKER_04 23:50

Excuse me, you know, just kind of like, oh, it's so uncool.

SPEAKER_03 23:53

You just don't sit at a table.

SPEAKER_04 23:55

Yeah, I just wanted to like freak out, but like that's a good question of like, is it sometimes wise to be like uncool, to be a a Karen? To like hold a boundary or express yourself.

SPEAKER_03 24:08

Yeah, I don't know if it's wise, but I think I trend towards I probably would have said something to those people and made it real uncomfortable. Yeah, you're like I think I trend towards just making things uncomfortable with my honesty, and I'm not saying that's a good idea. I wouldn't want to be there decision at all. And I know that my wife will be like, let me lead on this, don't do it, because you're gonna trend pretty honest and or a lot of distress and discomfort, and people won't know how to respond to it. It's Friday night, it's movie night.

SPEAKER_04 24:47

Yeah, it's movie night.

SPEAKER_03 24:48

It's it's movie night. We're doing something real current from 1980. Yeah, maybe you've heard it. Ordinary people. Yeah, I think that's perfect. It's not current.

SPEAKER_04 24:59

So yeah, totally. Yeah, well that maybe that makes it better. It's like not too spoilery.

SPEAKER_03 25:04

Oh. You know what I mean? Like if you're if we're spoiling this for people, I'm sorry. But like one, we don't have any listeners.

SPEAKER_04 25:11

Two, no one's heard it.

SPEAKER_03 25:14

Two, you're 44 years past this when this movie was made. So uh, you know what? I'm not- I'm not gonna feel bad for you. I'm not gonna tell you to turn off the podcast.

SPEAKER_04 25:24

I imagine you get halfway through and I'm like, wait, I've decided to actually go on spoiler class. We haven't seen it in a while. I'm gonna go back.

SPEAKER_03 25:30

Judd Hirsch is amazing as a therapist. Like, like straight up, Judd Hirsch is just smoking in the therapy sessions, which you kind of forget.

SPEAKER_04 25:39

Like Salmanuchin.

SPEAKER_03 25:40

You just kind of like forget that was just so everywhere. Like the smoking of it all.

The Table Meltdown And Boundaries

SPEAKER_04 25:47

Yeah, I think like Freud and Jung were smoking like that, it's just like everywhere. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:53

Like ashtrays all over the table. Crazy. And you know, Judd Hirsch has on the cardigan, the tie. He's smoking a cigarette. I mean, it's just like, wow, that was therapy back then.

SPEAKER_04 26:04

Yeah, it's like this. And his office is kind of like messy, you know, and he's got like the messy intellectual. Yeah, and he's like shit everywhere.

SPEAKER_03 26:12

Oh, funny, edit it out.

SPEAKER_04 26:14

Um, yeah, what is happening? I think their dog probably got into something. Oh no. It's either like a bears game or the dog.

SPEAKER_03 26:28

Do they need therapy? Oh boy. No, I'm we can have a host. We're available. We'll invite them in as guests. And that's really now we're transitioning into fashion. Yeah, which is what this podcast means. Is it fashionable? Sometimes therapists have the worst fashion sense. Totally.

SPEAKER_04 26:51

The fashion of therapists. Yeah, it's interesting. My therapist, like mostly, I feel like wears workout clothes, which I would never wear to therapy. To my workout clothes, like athletisure wear? Yeah. I think she works out a lot. She she would never reveal that, but I think I think she's into that.

SPEAKER_03 27:11

I think people don't really care anymore what people wear. Yeah, I don't think it's like it's just really transitioned into that, don't you think?

SPEAKER_04 27:16

Yeah. Well, yeah, it's like if I popped on a Zoom with a new therapist and they were like dressed up.

SPEAKER_03 27:22

Yeah, that would be a little mushroom.

SPEAKER_04 27:23

I'd be like, what the hell?

SPEAKER_03 27:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:24

Yeah. I mean, I think you can't look like shlubby like you just rolled out of bed. Oh, you could. You could, but I think then clients would be like, are they okay?

SPEAKER_03 27:33

Let me try to pull that off.

SPEAKER_04 27:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:35

I don't know. We had a coworker. We can take this out if it doesn't work, but we had a co-worker who love her to death. And uh I remember her being like, Yeah, this is we were like zooming with her, and she was like, This is my this is my office. It like it looks so good. And and you know, the the computer's on the desk, and you're seeing like her face level, and then everything behind her, and she's an art therapist, not to give away too much. So much great stuff, and then she, you know, we're complimenting her. We're like, God, like that, you're just your space looks great. Yeah, and she was like, Let me just tilt the camera down. She tilts the camera down, and it fucking looked like a bomb went off in her goddamn office. There was shit everywhere, all over her floor, but you would have no idea. I don't even know how she backed her chair out. It was art supplies, it was canvases all over the place. That is sensitive. And it was so funny. I was dying laughing because it was like, yeah, you only see that upper zoom if you're doing therapy on Zoom. Yeah, you only see that, and that's really all you need to see, right? But I was shocked when she turned out. I was like, how do you even get in the room, let alone like get in your chair? Wow, it was bins, it was like paint things. It was I don't even know. Which makes so much sense. It was almost as if she like had to have like a hatch that she dropped into the room because how do you get in there? My eye will not stop twitching.

SPEAKER_04 29:11

Do you think I'm dying? Is that it yes? No, I think it's just alcohol. I'm having a little drink. Oh, is that the alcohol talking? Through your eye? Like could you tell that it was doing that a little bit? No. Okay, okay. Then as long as I look perfect.

SPEAKER_03 29:30

Are you yeah, are you?

SPEAKER_04 29:32

As long as my social media page is perfectly curated.

SPEAKER_03 29:34

Are you having a bad day now? Do you need to post that? And is your eyes twitching? No, I need to tell people I'm I'm hashtag relatable.

SPEAKER_04 29:40

I have a twitching eye.

SPEAKER_01 29:41

I have a twitching eye and it's death. So yeah. I like when you go to death. Yeah, oh, I go right to death. I know you go right to death. I shared an office.

SPEAKER_03 29:50

I share an office with you. Of course I know you go right to death.

SPEAKER_04 29:53

You know how many times you went right to death when we shared an office? Oh my god. Speaking of this week, I j and I mean this from the bottom of my heart. I said to Josh several times, I think I have a blood clot. And I was like, I feel like we should go to the emergency room, maybe. Because I had been on the plane and my legs were bothering me. Okay. We didn't end up going and I ended up being fine. I think I just was having like circulation issues from the plane, which I think I get. But I truly was like, I had like weird heavy feeling in my leg and a kind of a reddish spot. So I naturally was like, I'm dying. And I kept saying to Josh, I was like, I just don't want you to wake up tomorrow and I'm dead in the bed. I kept saying that, which is so crazy. Dark.

SPEAKER_05 30:36

I don't want that either.

SPEAKER_04 30:38

Yes, no. So he would say that. He's like, well, I don't want that either. He's like, I don't think that's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_03 30:42

I don't think it's gonna happen. I don't want that. And we went dark. Wait, you're saying that was happening during the flight or after? No, after.

SPEAKER_04 30:50

It's like Monday I saw my clients and I was like, my legs were kind of bothering me.

SPEAKER_03 30:53

I mean, that is one of the problems with raw dog in a flight. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 30:57

I did raw dog some of the flight.

SPEAKER_03 30:59

I did too. I was oh my god, San Diego. I was like, I'm just gonna zone out for like an hour. Like just yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:07

You know what? You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 31:08

Rawdog it.

SPEAKER_04 31:09

I started there was a guy, Kitty Corner, watching the dark night.

SPEAKER_02 31:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:14

And so I had no sound, it was his screen. I just watched his dark night. Yeah. It was so stupid. Yeah. Because I didn't have the headphones and I was too lazy to get my book out. So I was just like sitting there watching. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, and they weren't serving us any water, and we were stuck on the flight. So I started to become so thirsty. I saw a character in the dark night fall into a sewer, and I felt like envious that they were in that water. That's how thirsty I was.

SPEAKER_03 31:40

I would drink that kind of water. Yeah. When I went through security, you know, I put the boys first, and I'm like, go walk through the metal detector. And you know, Wes walks through, Shane walks through, beep, beep, beep. Okay, he's the random one we're gonna check. I'm like, him? I'm like, can you just like check me?

SPEAKER_04 31:56

How old is he?

SPEAKER_03 31:57

He's like Shane? Yeah. He's not even seven yet. He's 37. They're like six years old, this guy. Why are we going on a list? Yeah, he might be on the list, right? So I was like, what are you gonna do with this kid? And they're like, well, what does he get in his backpack? And I'm like, he's got an eye-he's got stuffed animals, like chips, like, well, does he have yeah, it's like a book. Like, they were like, What do you he's got an iPad? And I he was like, Well, can we get that out and check? I was like, You really got you like this is a kid right here. He's like looking up, like what's wrong. His eyes are like, dear in the headlights, and I'm like, Can you just check something else? And he was like, Okay, give me your phone. And finally he like took my phone and checked it, but it was just like this is what it's come to, like taking six-year-olds, yeah, like to check their shit. Meanwhile, Wes is sitting there like, sucker.

SPEAKER_05 32:48

I'm sure I was gonna say my brothers would be laughing at that.

Travel, Airports, And Emotion Mind

SPEAKER_03 32:50

Yeah, oh yeah. I mean, he's Wes is so sensitive and so nice, and in those moments, like these boys totally rise to the occasion in those moments where it's like Wes was able to like park it and not like he was kind of like, we just gotta kind of like get through this, you know, like older brother, which it's totally appreciated in that moment, but it was also just like so insane that it was like you see all of these people walking through all these adults, and then the six-year-old is the random person. The random person who gets pulled through. This guy right here. Yeah, this guy. Yeah, troublemaker. What is he 60 pounds? Yeah, definitely gonna do some damage over here. Like ridiculous, yeah, absolutely ridiculous. That's so funny. I know. Oh my god, I love it. Traveling with kids is like it's pretty fun, but it's also like there's a lot going on.

SPEAKER_04 33:42

Yeah, I once traveled with my older nieces, and yeah, that was a lot. My one niece was standing on the thing where they weigh your bags, and she was begging me to stand on it.

SPEAKER_00 33:53

I was like, I'm not standing. She's like, come on, I want to know how much you weigh. I was like, no.

SPEAKER_04 33:59

No, thank you.

SPEAKER_03 34:01

Doing that. That's gonna be a hard no.

SPEAKER_04 34:04

Yeah, and they wanted it drink out of all the gross water fountains like in the airport. I was like, I don't think your parents are gonna be cool with that.

SPEAKER_03 34:10

No, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 34:13

It looks pretty crazy, but if your kids, if they travel enough, they probably get used to it. Because they're visiting family. They're good.

SPEAKER_03 34:20

And the older they get, like, obviously it's easier. And I mean, let's be for real, like, I'm just throwing tablets and and treats at them all.

SPEAKER_04 34:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:28

Like it they have carte blanche over whatever they want because it's like we just need to get through this flight. Like, this is not the moment. Flight is where it is. This is not the moment for me to be like, well, let's limit your screen time because like it's like you can watch the rules whatever you want. I have the backup battery because this thing's gonna be on for six hours while we're on this flight.

SPEAKER_04 34:46

Like, but even like as an adult, it's like that. Like when I'm at the airport, it's like McDonald's all the way. You know, it's like yeah, the rules are out the window.

SPEAKER_05 34:54

I'll buy a$25 hardcover book.

SPEAKER_04 34:56

Yeah. Like, you know, that I don't even care about that. I'm looking at luggage.

SPEAKER_03 35:01

Yeah, yeah. I already have the luggage. I'm like, oh, another Herschel bag? Yeah, why not? Sure. Let's just do it. This gotta be the newest model. Vacation. Yeah. Why would I not buy the most expensive thing? Because everything's marked up because you have no other place to get it. Yeah, you're trapped. It's like another neck pillow. Of course. Why would I not? Yeah. It's like the airport is like, yeah, well, I get so talk about like emotion mind. Like sometimes when I'm on vacation, it's just like, dude, I need to like rein it in because I'm just like, yeah, nothing matters. Like, let's just charge it. Like, we'll deal with it when we get home. That is not good travel.

SPEAKER_04 35:38

Our topic today.

SPEAKER_03 35:40

Was it fashion travel?

SPEAKER_04 35:41

Yeah, it's fashion travel, and now it's people pleasing. People pleasing. Yeah. So I guess we can define people pleasing. Yeah, how would you define we could look up a people pleasing?

SPEAKER_03 35:54

A more legitimate. I'm gonna look up a definition. Well, how would you define it? I would I while I'm looking it up.

SPEAKER_04 36:00

I would probably call because just to consider the idea of pleasing others doesn't really count as people pleasing. People pleasing is that more pathological, sort of impairing level of making the pleasing of other people your main objective. Usually kind of subconsciously, but letting the idea of getting the approval of others pleasing others really drive you. Rather than like your own value system drive you.

SPEAKER_03 36:32

Yes. And I'm looking this up because man, there's a lot of negatives to it. But yeah. From an APA informed perspective, people pleasing is a common psychological phenomenon phenomenon where individuals prioritize the needs and desires of others over their own. While it might seem like a positive trait, excessive people pleasing can lead to various negative consequences. And that's probably right, like the idea of like how much is it impacting your life, right? And then it becomes maybe a problematic behavior, right? So like I think there's socially appropriate, if we want to call it that, right? Or you know, like people pleasing, like we all do that. That's just a behavior, but it's like how much is it interfering with you know other things in your life? So um it's hard too, because when we please others, that's so reinforcing, like that feels good.

SPEAKER_04 37:26

Yeah, it does.

SPEAKER_03 37:28

And that's how it's like, yeah, but no, like I'm doing good things, right? Yeah, and a lot of the behaviors we engage in that could, you know, be deemed people pleasing are really pro-social behaviors, and they get a lot of praise, and you get a lot of advancements socially, economically, in your job, you get titles, right? Like all of those things. There's so much that's intertwined in it that reinforces this behavior.

SPEAKER_04 37:54

Yeah. I mean, I don't know about you, but I I do this a lot.

SPEAKER_03 37:58

I don't.

People-Pleasing: Definition And Costs

SPEAKER_04 37:59

Yes. I'm so curious about that as well.

SPEAKER_03 38:03

Which is not that's not healthy either. There is something in me, and and I think that sometimes I've developed a reputation of somebody who is difficult or inflexible because I don't go along with things. But and this is probably me being defensive of who I am, which is fair, but I do want to be honest that I just feel like I have a strong need to, when I don't agree with something, because I truly don't agree with it, not that I'm trying to be difficult, to really try to put that out there and be honest. Does it always come across or land? No, a hundred percent. Yeah, and because I probably present it in a way that is very passionate, maybe not the most kind, and I totally own that, but there's always I feel like there's always been something in me that doesn't I don't feel always the need to want to just tell people what they want to hear, and I don't necessarily know where that comes from. Yeah. And it's probably done me a lot of harm in relationships and stuff where I feel like thinking more about like, yeah, not that I don't want to please others because I I do want to please others, but maybe I'm not at the cost of your authenticity.

SPEAKER_04 39:25

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, I think, but it's but this ends up raising the really interesting question of is it ever wise to people please? Like, and by that I mean like to kind of go along with something that maybe isn't totally authentic.

SPEAKER_03 39:41

I think it is, yes. I yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:43

Yeah, and it's like that's the space that's really difficult to suss out because someone with a very strong people pleasing part would probably say like a ton of different spaces that it's helpful. And there's probably very few where really to kind of go. Long. I feel like I used this once a long time ago when I was doing group therapy, and a friend of mine had a wedding. And the wedding was not the greatest experience. Weather-wise, like a bunch of things happened and it was outdoors and like all this. And then when the friend later asked me if I had a good time, I was like, totally, it was great. And in my mind, that felt value aligned, even though it was not technically honest because I did not have the best time. But it felt like my value of like compassion for this person. And how little it mattered to me whether I had the best time. You know, it was still a meaningful event in so many ways. I ended up saying, like, yeah, it was a great time. Um yeah, and for me it wasn't like almost something like, does that make sense? Like something in there. Yeah. In that space where it's like one value overwhelms another. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, there's a million other places where I'm people pleasing, and it would be more beneficial to be authentic and just say, I don't agree with that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:16

It's hard. Yeah. And I think that there's been space where, and I I know that Sarah even like has reflected to me at times where, like, even when she first met me, where she was just like, like, you just like do whatever you want to do. Like, I've never met somebody who's so confident in just telling people no, I don't want to do that, and this and that. But what's interesting is when you and then when you're in like a family system where a lot of the things as a parent that you're doing, you don't want to do. Yeah. Like that was that was a struggle for me. And it's not that I'm not, I of course I still do it because it's what the value is. Yeah. But I think the difference there is it's like that really impacted my mood, where it was just like, oh my God, there's all of these things that I can't say no to. And I don't want to say no to them, right? Like it's important. These are family things, and like, you know, that's a part of life as well. But when I was like free as a bird and not in a relationship, or I was in a relationship, but I didn't have kids, yeah. It was like a different zone of like just like me, like, no, I'm just gonna do whatever the fuck I want to do. Right. And that's not always the wisest thing. See, that's where it like gets like fuzzy.

SPEAKER_04 42:30

Or maybe what about this? What if one of your kids was like, Dad, are you having fun? And you're like, Yeah, that's probably people pleasing.

SPEAKER_03 42:37

That would be people pleasing, right? Which I don't do that with my kids at all because they will they I have no problem when they ask me. And it's interesting because they're reflecting that back to me. Even today, I bought this new game today. We we went to Target to shop for pants, which is a whole nother episode that we have to probably talk about. But we were just because my kids only want to wear shorts like all the time. Like their whole life is run hot, right? Well, yes, and their whole life is athleisure. I don't think they've worn jeans once in their life, which is fine. But it's like it's like at some point we're gonna have to wear pants. Like you do know that this is coming, right? And so this morning we got up, went through all their drawers, blah, blah, blah, blah, took them to Target. We finally got the pants, but I found a new game, brought it home. I was really excited to play it. And uh, you know, I was like, Shane played it with me, which is great. And then I was like, Wes, I was like, this was really fun. I was like, you want to play it with me? And he's like, um, dad, like, I hate to be rude, but no, I really don't. And I was like, I really appreciated that because it was like that was like a that was authentic. That was like a great move, right? Because the people pleasing there would have just been like, sure, dad, like, let's have fun, or something like that. And I feel like I modeled that when I don't want to do something. And what's interesting is now they're kind of like picking up on, they'll be like, So dad, I want to do this thing with you. Don't worry, like, you don't have to sit on the floor. And I'm like, perfect, then I'll do it. I'm like, that's great because you know that if you say you're gonna sit on the floor for I'm not gonna do it. Like, I'm too old, I don't want to get on the floor anymore and like do some of these things, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 44:05

You know, but that's so funny. They're like, listen, we set it up, you don't have to be on the floor.

SPEAKER_03 44:11

But so there is a part of it where it's like I'm trying to model for them, like it's okay to be like we can be honest, and you don't have to like the answer. Yeah, like it's safe to say to somebody I don't want to play a game with you right now, right? Like, and and my oldest is kind of like overly apologetic right now about stuff like that. And I'm like, you don't have to apologize if you don't want to play a game with me, like yeah, don't play a game with me. Like that's totally fair, right? Um I think it's also about the delivery of it, and I think that's probably where I struggle with it too, where the delivery sometimes, whether it be there or anywhere in my life, it's just pretty cut and dry. Where it's like, nope, not gonna do that. Yeah, it's like I could soften that probably. Right. Not the wisest thing to come across like not every time.

SPEAKER_04 44:54

Yeah, I get it. Well, because I here's the thing about I will, I have a strong people-pleasing part, and when it here's the funny thing about it. It's like when it steps forward and makes a bunch of choices for me, yeah, then I'm boiling inside. Yeah, so then the next the time where the the bubble bursts, I'm like an asshole to someone. Yeah, and then it's like, what on earth? Like this wasn't people pleasing at all. I it's like, because the system, I always tell clients, it's like the system is gonna seek equilibrium. Yeah. So if you're always giving, then you're suddenly gonna really take from someone and explode, or like, or just be my exploding is often just like being curt or like a bit sassy, and then and then I'll feel guilt. And then you go back to the people pleasing. And it's like a mess where if you can find that compassionate but honest, direct like expression, which is impossible to do all the time, but to really be like, to really consider, and always, of course, like pausing gives you this like, do I really want to do that? And do I have the room to say no? You know, it's like if I'm a parent and these are my children, often there isn't the room to say no, but I can even contact that, like, I don't feel like doing this, but it's meaningful, and like get behind it. But yeah, it's like if a cousin invites you to a dinner, you like really don't want to go to. It's like, you know, yeah, I love them, but I I can say no here and really say, like, oh, I love you so much, we'll have to get together soon. I can't make it. Yeah, you know, or I'm not gonna be able to come.

SPEAKER_03 46:26

Right.

SPEAKER_04 46:26

Yeah, yeah.

Modeling Honesty With Kids

SPEAKER_03 46:29

So now we're gonna do our our new segment called Is It Wise? And the way I want to set this up is to really just ask Kelly because I really want to put Kelly on the spot uh on this one. Um, but this is kind of a it these can be a little bit like silly examples of like questions, and is it that wise? Um, and who knows, it might tap into something even deeper. But yeah, curious your thoughts. Is it wise to buy art for people? And the reason I asked this is because I came in to record the podcast and was immediately put on the spot and said, John, look behind you. My was it your sister? Sister-in-law. My sister-in-law bought this for me. What do you think? So it was a piece of art, and I like it, and I think it works, and I think it's great. But I think the larger question is, is it wise to buy art for people?

SPEAKER_04 47:24

Yeah. And then I did reveal that we registered for it and fully chose it.

SPEAKER_03 47:27

Fully reveal. So I like that you didn't tell me that. I know. It was just my like you just wanted my opinion. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 47:35

Well, yeah, it's like I almost was like putting in the position of criticizing our taste, or more like that taste, because I put it on there.

SPEAKER_03 47:41

Huge reveal. Yeah. I was so saboteurs over here. I was sabotaged into this.

SPEAKER_02 47:48

But is it wise to buy art for people?

SPEAKER_04 47:49

Well, it I think of course it makes me think. It's like, of course, a question raises other questions because that's just what's fun about this conversation. What you define as art in terms of the gift. Because it's like you could buy someone a clock, you could buy someone a candle holder, might be more art than the candle itself. Yes. You could buy someone like visual art, like a painting or a whatever, or yes, almost something like decorative, maybe.

SPEAKER_03 48:20

I think many things count as art. Yeah, so many things count as art. You could glassware, a vase, a vase if you want to.

SPEAKER_04 48:28

Yeah. Who really says vase? Have you ever met someone who like casually is just like, oh my god, a vase?

SPEAKER_03 48:33

My youngest son Shane had a homework this week, and one of his like sight words to learn was vase.

SPEAKER_05 48:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:40

And there's a part of me that half said it and half said vase. It was really embarrassing. He like looked at me and he was kind of like, My dad doesn't even know how to read. Like, there was like a moment where he was like, He doesn't know what that word is. You good? So I corrected it, I hard, took a hard write and corrected it, and vase, it's vase.

SPEAKER_06 48:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:59

Save it. Yeah, you don't want your kid going in. I'm sorry, I don't want my kid going in and saying vase. No.

SPEAKER_04 49:05

I mean, it's only to like troll them that you would teach them to.

SPEAKER_03 49:08

It was just I and if you say vase out there, please continue to do it because that's you and great. But like I it was a funny moment. But I feel like it's wise. Actually, I don't know if it's that wise to buy art for people. Yeah. Because I think it also puts them in the position of I have to hang it. Or I have to like have it out. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 49:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 49:32

Or you're putting them in the position of I'm never gonna have it out, but when you visit me, I'm gonna have it out. Yeah. Which is like a mad scramble or a dash. Right. I don't know. I feel like it's a hard needle sometimes to thread to know people's tastes. Yeah. Know what they're gonna like. I mean, some art is so like plain that I guess you're you're but then it doesn't feel as meaningful from my perspective.

SPEAKER_04 49:56

Yeah. I think short answer, it's not wise because it's usually not respectful enough of their uh like autonomy. But then you almost raise the question of like, are gifts wise? Like it's like, yeah, or like what is the meaning of a gift? What is like the best way to give a gift? I I try to think about that idea of like what is something they would never buy themselves, but they would want. That's a good good way of taking but then with that logic, uh what would someone then be getting you? Ooh. Because I can think of a few.

SPEAKER_03 50:29

Like something I wouldn't buy myself, but you would really want and appreciate. That I would really want and appreciate. I mean, honestly, I think if my wife Sarah was like, I got us somebody to come and clean our house once a month, I think that would be like, I would be like, Heaven, thank you. Yeah, like drop dare. Because there's always a reason, there's always a reason why I'm like, I could just do it myself, I'll clean it, or I'll just deal with it.

SPEAKER_04 50:59

So yeah, that's that's a good one. It's like because you probably always rationalize to yourself. Oh yeah, I can do it. I can do it. I can do it.

SPEAKER_03 51:06

I'll always rationalize for it, or it always comes from a place of like a complete emotional moment where I'm looking around my house and I'm like, this place is a disaster. We need to get a clean, we need to get a professional in here because I can't keep up with it.

SPEAKER_02 51:20

Who am I?

SPEAKER_03 51:21

I only have a high school diploma in cleaning. I have no advanced degree. I don't know what I'm doing here. Um and just with finances and kids and stuff, there's always something where I could be like, no, that money which should be used elsewhere. Like I shouldn't be using it on something like that.

SPEAKER_04 51:35

Like what are we doing? That's a really good point. Like, maybe something I know great about spending on is like hotels, like going on a trip and staying at a hotel.

SPEAKER_03 51:45

Josh, are you listening?

SPEAKER_04 51:46

I mean, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:47

I just figured out the art question. What it's wise to give people art that's made by kids. Because actually, it's not that wise.

SPEAKER_05 51:57

I was gonna say, I was like, I'm curious. I actually didn't figure out that question.

SPEAKER_02 52:02

This week we are going to explore is it wise or how wise is it to have a wedding? Yes.

SPEAKER_03 52:09

So we're in two different places with this.

SPEAKER_02 52:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:12

I have been married now for 11 years.

SPEAKER_01 52:15

Woo!

SPEAKER_03 52:16

Thank you very much. Thank you. 11 years, and you are about to get married.

SPEAKER_04 52:22

Yeah, Josh and I are engaged, um, and we're planning a wedding right now.

SPEAKER_03 52:28

Um, so yeah, like And everybody who listens to the podcast is invited. Yeah, you guys are home, guys are all kind of thing.

SPEAKER_04 52:35

Yeah, they're in the mail. Yeah. No, but yeah, we're we're really in the thick of planning. And even though it's um what is it? Probably seven months or eight months from now. Um we've planned most of it, most of the big things.

SPEAKER_03 52:52

Um, here's something I wanna know.

SPEAKER_04 52:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:56

Because I'm 11 years, I'm more than 11 years removed from this.

SPEAKER_04 53:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:02

Is it truly that? And we talked about this when we're thinking about wise mind, right? There's like wise is kind of, you know, rational, reasonable, and emotional at the same time. But is this more of the pendulum swing from emotional to rational? To emotional to rational, where we're missing that wise place, or yeah, for me a lot.

New Segment: Is It Wise? Gifts And Art

SPEAKER_04 53:25

That's a great question, because I think that's exactly it. That like you'll start with like rational decisions. Right. Right? Like, what makes sense here to do this?

SPEAKER_01 53:42

That was that was a dead easing. That was an amazing delivery. Like, what makes sense here?

SPEAKER_03 53:53

Like that's a great I love that. That's that's great. That is anyway.

SPEAKER_04 53:58

And then it's like it devolves because there, you know, of course, like there's a lot of people involved. There's a lot of like needs and also like concerns, so many decisions to make.

SPEAKER_01 54:10

So many.

SPEAKER_04 54:11

And like it starts, I think everyone starts so innocent. Like, I just want to celebrate. I mean, I'm obsessed with Josh. I love him so much, I could explode. And I really at the end of the day, I just want to be married to Josh. And yet, decisions about chairs can bring you to your niece.

SPEAKER_03 54:32

I that is so real because the the decisions you think are gonna be easy end up not.

SPEAKER_04 54:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 54:42

Because you go into it and you're like, yeah, napkins, great, pick the this one. But then it turns somebody has a question or somebody has an opinion that you didn't ask for. Yeah. And I do people, is there ever somebody who goes into it and is like, I really want a complicated wedding?

SPEAKER_04 55:00

No. Oh, I mean, that's great. Yeah, I really just want a wedding.

SPEAKER_03 55:04

I really want I really want a complicated wedding. Because what I hear more often than not is people like, we want it really simple, and then you speak to them three months, and then another three months, and then everything has become so complicated. And that was even my experience where it was like, oh my god, not only is there the decision fatigue, yeah, but it's just like nothing is simple, I feel like.

SPEAKER_04 55:25

Because it can quickly become like if I don't have the right chairs, I'm not good enough. You know, like a lot of for me, some that stuff is coming up. You know, like if I don't and I this is probably just such a huge mistake, and I'm so in deep, I can't get out of it. Like, I I'm following I'm following a lot of like bridal stuff online, you know, like vogue weddings and different things on Pinterest and like the anti-bride stuff, which is like brides who are not super normal about their bridal women.

SPEAKER_03 55:59

So you're consuming all of this wedding, yeah, I said bride stuff.

SPEAKER_04 56:04

I said to Josh the other day, I was like, why is the only content I'm being shown Charlie Pooth's wedding? Who I don't know if you know who Charlie Pooth is, he's like a star.

SPEAKER_00 56:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 56:14

He just got married. Okay. Which uh it's like the only thing I ever see on my TikTok or Instagram is Charlie Pooth's photos from Charlie Pooth's wedding. I'm like, this is why the algorithm is so stupid. It's like if I've seen, if I once clicked on Charlie Pooth's wedding because I'm getting wedding content and it showed up, yeah, and I wanted to see the dress and whatever, why would the AI geniuses think that now I want to see Charlie Booth's wedding another 47 times? It's like I don't love it. It's like I I would maybe see another wedding. It's like I don't even care. But it's like all these things where you're just like, oh, am I gonna look so not like that? It's like of course you're not gonna look like that. Like, and that's fine. And that's really fine.

SPEAKER_03 57:03

And it's just so this is really an exercise in wise mind because you're really pulling yourself out of those two extremes, right? The rational and the oh yeah, and the emotional.

SPEAKER_04 57:15

Well, we like so hard though. We met the other day with our the woman helping with like production meeting, like they help hang flowers and help do certain things. We'd had a meeting with her, she didn't respond to like maybe five of my emails.

SPEAKER_03 57:29

And I was like, I got horror stories about people not responding from our wedding, which was just like so do you know this is like a very important day? Can you just respond?

SPEAKER_04 57:37

Like, even just a hey, I'll get back to this, whatever. Yeah, no response, no response, no response. And then when we finally went through her, she has forgotten truly every single thing we talked about. And the meeting we met with her in person and made a hundred decisions, like no recollection. And it's like I hear myself even saying this, and I'm like, this is how you become bridesilla, where it's like this day is so important. And I'm like, I know she has 50 other weddings, even right now she's dealing with. But it is also a bit irritating to have to just constantly repeat your That's her job. That's her job.

SPEAKER_03 58:08

Why are you making excuses for her right now?

SPEAKER_04 58:10

Well, you're right.

SPEAKER_03 58:11

It's like sorry, not very therapist of me, but like this is where it's like when people are like, you know what? Like, oh yeah, okay, you're a therapist, right, Kelly? So you're just gonna forget everything this person talked about in the last session? Like, that's not okay, that's your job.

SPEAKER_04 58:26

Yeah, you're so right. Like, I've forgotten little pretty innocuous details sometimes with the client.

SPEAKER_03 58:31

Of course we do, because like we're human, but we also take notes and we reflect on that, and then it's and most things I'm right there. This is a service we're providing as well, right? So it's like this person's providing a service. Yeah, yeah, it was like leaving.

SPEAKER_04 58:47

Well, she has the service.

SPEAKER_03 58:51

Can we can we get her on the phone her in right now?

SPEAKER_04 58:54

You don't know who this is, but I know who you are.

unknown 58:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 58:59

And this week we're gonna talk about is it wise to engage with astrology in some way? Um, and I engage with it a little bit. These days, probably less than maybe even when we shared an office, but I am still into it. I just haven't been like doing the cards and stuff like lately. But tell us your John, your relationship to these things.

SPEAKER_03 59:23

Um what relationship? I guess I guess is the question. It's nothing. It's nothing to I just I don't what is engaging about so here's my thing about astrology. Yeah, I understand the entertainment value of okay, sure. So I guess the if, and of course I'll date myself here. If you are getting a paper, a newspaper, and there's the little snippet about like your sign's a Leo, yeah, this is what you might want to look out for. Is that entertaining to just kind of Think about has anything recently happened or in the course of my day, may this come about. I think that would be my wise engagement with it. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know how wise it is when everything is attributed to retrograde. Oh my gosh, yeah, totally. Because I feel like I'm running into more people in my life that are attributing every aspect of their life happening because of something that is is this the wrong word? Celestial.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:33

Yeah. And I don't buy that. I don't buy that either. I think. And I think it's like so pointless. Even if you bought it on some level, to track it, it's like there's always a retrograde here or there or somewhere. And what is the birth chart of it all? The minute, like the place, the like hour and day you were born, or month, place, like hour you were born. Sets the stage for like who you're gonna be.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:06

I'm already zoning out on this. Like I'm trying I'm really trying hard to pay attention here. So not to cut you off.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:16

Well, here's the theory.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:18

Tell me the theory.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:19

Because I think I only really engage with like almost like meta-narratives of it. Like sometimes I think a framework, even if it's like not a true framework, can be something interesting to see your life through. Sure, yeah. Like raises interesting questions, but it's like that's the curiosity I would like to bring to it. Yeah, totally. So yeah, it's like my birth chart, for instance. Like, I'm a Pisces son, which I think your son sign is like your like the horoscopes match with this, where it's like the month you were born.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:50

It's like you're making it. This is this is the what people don't know is the amount of time when we shared an office where it was like these would come up, these conversations, and I would try to track them.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:05

Yeah, I'd be like, yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:07

But it's like when I encounter a person who actually fully buys into it, then I'm like, they're completely full of it.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:12

People seem to have a reaction when they know I'm a Leo. Yes, it seems like people hate Leo.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:18

Well, Leos are one of the signs where people have these like polarizing responses.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:22

Like Leos, Scorpios, and Geminis people are like, which is wild because my son and I, my oldest son, who were born on the same day. Yes, we're both Leos. And my wife and my youngest son are both Scorpios. And people are like, How the hell does your house work? And I'm like, Well, that just shows that astrology shit, because it works fine. Like, but it's interesting that people have such visceral reactions, and so maybe that's why I'm kind of like, What why you already have a problem with me? Because I'm a Leo?

SPEAKER_04 1:02:50

Yeah. Well, it's also like it's such an excuse to like validate yourself if you've encountered like a difficult person to be like, oh, they're Scorpio. Because it's like all the Scorpios in my life I really like. But then I like went on a few dates with a Gemini and I'm like, they're nightmares. Like, you know, which is like the twins, the two-faced, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:10

So that just goes, that's in that. Okay, so don't, I'm not on board, but this is great.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:19

I think we're off to a good start. And yeah, if you want to find either of us, um, I have a website, kkpsychotherapy.com, with just more info on me. And if you want to work with me, I'm there. And John maybe has a website forthcoming.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:35

Forthcoming. I've never been well, maybe this would launch us into the next uh episode. I've never been on social media my entire life.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:42

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:43

So I have nothing. I can't direct anybody to anything. I am nothing. I am a human though, and I do exist in the world. Um, but yeah, that might be forthcoming. Yeah. We'll see. Yeah. This would be my first social media thing, right? Podcast on social media. Yeah, totally. I'm asking what social media is.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:01

No, it's special.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:02

I'm actually so big reveal in this podcast. I'm 3,000 years old. I actually don't know what I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:08

So that's us. And we'll see you all next week. Next week, yeah. Bye.

unknown 1:04:14

Bye.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:17

The WiseMind Happy Hour podcast is for entertainment purposes only, not to be treated as medical advice. If you are struggling with your mental health, please seek medical attention or counseling.