the best of WISE MIND HAPPY HOUR (Vol.2)

How wise is it to celebrate our 1-year anniversary with a full 2nd episode of highlights from our first year of recoding?

- music by blanket forts - 

Transcript

Kicking Off: Work-Life “Balance” Debunked

SPEAKER_07 0:03

Welcome to the Wise Mind Happy Hour.

SPEAKER_03 0:06

Yes, welcome back.

SPEAKER_07 0:08

Yeah, I'm Kelly.

SPEAKER_03 0:10

I'm John, your resident therapist.

SPEAKER_07 0:12

Yeah, yes. Therapists, podcasts, extraordinaires.

SPEAKER_03 0:17

Extraordinaires, famous people.

SPEAKER_07 0:19

Yeah, and we're we're starting, but we're also have like halfway into a conversation about work life balance.

SPEAKER_03 0:27

Buzzword. Buzzword. Or buzz.

SPEAKER_07 0:30

Is it even a buzzword anymore? It feels like a buzz concept. I think it's a good one. I mean, it's an evergreen topic.

SPEAKER_03 0:36

Yes.

SPEAKER_07 0:37

Right?

SPEAKER_03 0:38

Yeah. What do you think is the genesis of it? Like, where where do you think that even came from? This idea of like work-life balance.

SPEAKER_07 0:46

God, that is interesting. Like, where did that really get into the zeitgeist? Maybe when women started working more back in the day. Because I feel like, you know, traditional households, it's like husband just like worked the hours that they worked and were home like sometimes. And wives were just like did everything else. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:11

One does you do your part and the other person does their part. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:14

That's what it was. Totally. So maybe because it it does feel like it comes up a lot in in like feminist conversations, women conversations, like new moms. I feel like I have so many friends that are new moms, and it's like work life balance is so hard. But yeah, what do you when you hear that word, what do you think? Or that concept.

SPEAKER_03 1:33

Yeah, I think of I mean, there's so many things that could contribute to, and and I don't even like the word balance because it makes it feel like it's 50-50. So I don't even really like that it's so popular to talk about work life balance.

SPEAKER_07 1:46

No, I feel about the word balance.

SPEAKER_03 1:48

You hate balance. What?

SPEAKER_07 1:51

I like basically. Are we balanced speaking English? What are we balance talks about balance?

SPEAKER_03 1:56

Yeah, why do you hate the word balance?

SPEAKER_07 1:57

Well, I think exactly what you're getting at. It's it's so vague. It's like, are you talking about like total equity between the things? Right. How would you ever capture that in and work and in life? And yeah, it's like, what's the value of balancing? I I think I heard like Rachel Ray once on a podcast, or maybe she was like being quoted by someone on a podcast, and she was like, Yeah, work-life balance. She was like, I'm, you know, I'm able to find the balance that I find. You know, kind of like, I don't bother with that a little bit. And I kind of respected it because it's like it's sort of so hard because it also like presumes that you have full control of that. And so many people work for bosses that it's like these are the hours you're working.

SPEAKER_06 2:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 2:39

And that's it. So it's like, what is the practice there? Then it's like making the most of your time away from work or is setting some boundaries with work, and that varies so much depending on where you work. Right. Like, can you actually set those boundaries? You know, some jobs it's like it's a no-go. And other jobs, it's like it you can do it a little my work. I I have my own practice, so then it becomes like I can do it whenever I want. So then it's like, when do you do it? You know, like work and life, they're not like balanced, they're kind of like merged in some ways. And then it's like, is that bet is that wise or is that not wise?

SPEAKER_06 3:21

Right.

SPEAKER_07 3:22

Because sometimes it feels like it's not, because it feels like I never am definitively in one or the other. And then you feel a little insane. Like, I guess I could do work here, but I also could do my laundry, but I also could on this errand, or I also could call this friend, or I mean, it literally never feels balanced, it always feels a little crazy. Yeah, for me, it's like work-life balance. Mine is just like fucking chaos. Like it's like yeah, it's like it can be a lot.

SPEAKER_03 3:54

Wait, now I just thought of something, and this is probably not a revolutionary thought by any means. Why is it not life work balance?

SPEAKER_07 4:03

Oh my god, question of the year. Life work balance.

SPEAKER_03 4:07

Because it's it's putting work before life, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 4:10

That's the problem in itself.

SPEAKER_03 4:12

I think what convoludes the whole conversation too is the whole like prescriptive like wellness culture that people will tell you what balance is in your life.

unknown 4:22

Toxic.

SPEAKER_03 4:23

And I think that that's a lot for people to sort through because I think that people are really lost and inundated with so much information of like what would be effective for you outside of work to help you balance yourself.

SPEAKER_08 4:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:37

And so I feel like that can also lead to like stuck in like well, I am I supposed to be doing yoga because that's a popular thing now. Am I supposed to be doing like do I eat like do I yeah, do I bake bread because like people seem to like that during the pandemic? Does that give you balance? You either bake bread, that's your religion, or you do crochet because that seems to be a thing now, and it's season to make scarves. Like, I feel like there's so many options and people telling people through any type of medias, you know, and obviously like they're trying to make money, right? But like I think that that can be confusing for people too, where it's like they don't even know where to start because they don't know what they like outside of the work, you know, arena. So then sometimes people will just gravitate towards more work.

SPEAKER_07 5:28

Yeah, you know, well, the wellness culture has become like work, the way it is now. It's like have you done like these steps? And like it's all too like it's like better yourself. It's more like better your like physical image a lot of the time or whatever. And then it's like, yeah, it's like meditate this much, or else you failed it, work out this much, journal this much, like eat this way. When really like self-compassion as a practice is that like listen in and like whatever you hear, like be with it, be allowing of it, don't fight what shows up. And I feel like wellness culture is like whittle yourself and your body into the optimum form, and it's like so it's so hilariously like capitalistic. Yes, it's almost like a cartoon. Like, God, a capitalism isn't an absolute disease. I I think it is a disease, and it's like everything goes to this, like just like get to the top, and then when you realize there's nothing there, find something else to get to the top of, and it's so endless, and like it really shows up everywhere, and also all wellness culture, it's like it's all about just selling you things, like buying stuff.

SPEAKER_03 6:52

Yeah, I want to get I'm gonna poke the bear on you with balance. What does balance mean? I guess it comes from a scale. Is it contentment? Yes, okay. I guess from like a definite like a literal definition to scale, that's even it's like why do you want to scale?

SPEAKER_07 7:12

Why does one want a scale or need a scale to be even?

SPEAKER_03 7:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 7:16

It was, I'm sure it was like to measure back in the day. Like are these potatoes worth this many coins or something? I don't know. Like, I'm I really wonder like why do you need those two to be equal? Even you maybe don't.

SPEAKER_03 7:35

You don't, but it also just like stacks the deck against you because it's never going to be even.

SPEAKER_08 7:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:43

Like whose life is even? Even in any facet of your life, like it's not gonna be even. You can't divide your time evenly.

SPEAKER_08 7:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:50

So I feel like it's again another thing where I just don't think that term Yeah, it doesn't make any real sense. It doesn't, and I think it does a disservice to the complexities of just like people and like their lives and how much time they have to devote to different things, right? Uh-huh. Again, I don't know what balance means, but right.

SPEAKER_07 8:12

Yeah, like, and that's like, well, it's true, it's like the even the word life is so vague. Like, because like you spend enough hours at work, it it is your life in many ways, especially if you have relationships there you actually value that aren't just like functional. And it's like John's like, me never well, that's gonna, I mean, that might lead into our question.

Wellness Culture, Capitalism, And Self-Compassion

SPEAKER_03 8:38

That might be a teaser into is it why or is it why segment.

SPEAKER_07 8:42

Yeah, but so today we're asking how wise is it to make friends with your co-workers?

SPEAKER_03 8:50

How wise is it to make friends with your co-workers?

SPEAKER_07 8:53

As two co-workers who identify as a friend.

SPEAKER_03 8:55

Who identify as friends are asking the question Yeah, how wise is it? I mean, I think this is another kind of rich topic.

SPEAKER_07 9:05

Well, yeah, what do you think?

SPEAKER_03 9:07

I think it's shifted from what I've seen.

SPEAKER_07 9:10

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:11

Now, granted, every field is different, right? And I've talked to people in so many different fields where it's like total enmeshment, people doing whatever with each other, they're in constant contact, they're going out all the time with one another. You know, I don't think necessarily the workplaces I've been in have been like that. Yeah. I have seen that probably maybe as I've gotten older, people are very maybe younger clinicians that I've worked with are very, very quick to like, and it could just be the product of being connected through social media and you know, all those types of things, like just like more constant connection, but like very quick to like make friends, want to hang out and things like that. Now I kind of hear on the other side of like not really liking many people, you know that about me. Um so I'm not quick to make friends with work. There's there's like a kind of a time period of like assessing um and being like maybe, you know, like yeah, so I'm very cautious. I lean on the cautious end of that, yeah. Because I just think there's so many problems they can create. Oh, yeah. You know, but obviously I'm friends with my coworkers. I'm friends with you, yeah, friends with other coworkers that both of us have worked with, right? And been very friendly with. But yeah, I think it gets messy though.

SPEAKER_07 10:35

Yeah, I think so too. I think I probably err a little too much on maybe the friends. Because I also like I know, like, even in the work, you know this, I don't have that much of a filter. So it's like close the office door, huge reveal. It's huge reveal. Like no holes barred. Like, I will say anything on my mind. And then you're like, all right, should I have shared that? Should I have shared my true feelings about that other coworker of ours or whatever?

SPEAKER_03 11:06

It's like yeah, but it's it's never came across probably as harsh as you ever thought it was. Like it was just more of an authentic like experience, and probably what you were feeling you know, more often than not, when you would say something, I'm like, yeah, thank God somebody fucking said it.

SPEAKER_07 11:22

Right. Because it's like yeah, it's like you go in a meeting and something insane happens, or some new rule is imposed, and you're like, Yeah, what is this?

SPEAKER_03 11:31

Yeah, or you're being shamed for having fun at work, and then it was like, Yeah, are we Yeah, is this a prison? Is this what's happening?

SPEAKER_07 11:39

Yeah, we can't like have some like fun moments, right?

SPEAKER_03 11:43

You know what this makes me think of? This is this is a great story about Kelly. Without fail and without asking, Kelly would just bring her lunch into my office just to eat.

SPEAKER_00 11:54

We were like definitely not supposed to like.

SPEAKER_03 11:56

Like we were like it was like it wasn't like a mandate, but it was like eat at your desk, wipe your desk down, this and that. And without without fail, every day I'm sitting, Kelly just walks in. Like just with a bowl, with a sa bowl of salad, homemade dressing with shallots.

SPEAKER_01 12:14

I mean, it's it smelled amazing, but just without fail, just didn't even ask. Just like walks right in, plops down on the couch in my office, starts eating your lunch. Like it was so amazing that there was just no like preamble.

SPEAKER_03 12:32

It was just it wasn't even like a re eating lunch today. Are we not? Uh do you want to eat lunch alone? Do you got something to catch up on?

SPEAKER_07 12:39

I never ask.

SPEAKER_03 12:40

I just it just came in, just immediately came in and sat down, which you know, it was so funny when it would happen, and I I always enjoyed it because it was just like it was talking to you, yeah, you know, and we're friends, but it was just like so funny that that comfort level of just like I'm just gonna go in there, I'm just gonna start eating.

SPEAKER_07 13:02

Yeah, I would I would most of the time not have any self-awareness about it, but then when your supervisee was in there, she would have a face on like, what are you doing? And I was like, Oh, she thinks it's weird that it's kind of urgent here. I was like, Maybe it is weird.

SPEAKER_03 13:16

She's like, I'm trying to get some supervision from John. Kelly's like, I could be a part of this. Why not? What are you guys talking about? Anything personal?

SPEAKER_01 13:24

I'm in.

SPEAKER_00 13:24

Yeah, it's better than me moving on over there. I'm all right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:30

Sharing an office with you. Yeah, like I think that was like a really nice indoctrination of like you can be vulnerable to people at work, and that's okay.

SPEAKER_07 13:40

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_03 13:41

And it can work, and it can work, yeah. And you all can drag me for certain stuff, and I can put up with it. It's great.

SPEAKER_07 13:48

It's so fun to drag and be dragged is like a joy at work.

SPEAKER_03 13:52

Ugh, totally. You don't dragged me the other day? My barber. About your hair? Totally. I love my barber, Caesar. Shout out to Caesar. I went to him and he's cutting my hair, and I hadn't got it cut in a while, so we were just like catching up. And I was like, um, you know, he was like kind of done, and I was like, Can you just take a little bit more off the top? He's like, sure. So, you know, he takes a little bit more off the top, and then he's he's just like, Yeah, I just didn't want to go too far, John. You know, you're kind of thinning up there. And I was like, I was like, I know, I know. Ever since I turned 40, I was like, oh god, my hair is thinning on top.

SPEAKER_07 14:32

But he like totally weeps like just lone tear.

SPEAKER_03 14:37

I'm like, listen, man, I know what's happening. We don't get a voice set.

SPEAKER_04 14:40

But it was just like such a subtle, it was such a subtle like drag.

SPEAKER_03 14:45

I was just like laughing to myself because he was just like, I mean, you know, didn't want to go too short, you're thinning up there, man. He was like, nice, well done.

SPEAKER_07 14:56

Sitting around watching football for hours is my version of the seventh circle of hell. I really hate football so much.

SPEAKER_03 15:05

So this is good because we're just gonna disenfranchise all of our football fans that listen to our podcast. Because Kelly's a hater. My heart goes out.

SPEAKER_07 15:13

But I'd like to do it.

SPEAKER_03 15:14

But uh no, football that I mean, there's only so much of that, which I can tolerate that because I like it.

SPEAKER_08 15:22

Yeah, you like football.

SPEAKER_03 15:24

But it also there's a level of it where it's like we gotta get out of the house.

SPEAKER_07 15:28

Like, I can't do it.

SPEAKER_03 15:30

We can't be in inside. It's like being cooped up for so long, like just not doing anything.

SPEAKER_08 15:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:37

And there's a version of that if you're watching something you like that maybe is enjoyable, but like especially I can only imagine if it was like I don't know for me, if it was I I'm trying to think of something that if it was on Do you like golf?

SPEAKER_07 15:52

You would like that?

SPEAKER_03 15:54

No, that I mean that's a good, I guess, comparison.

SPEAKER_07 15:56

Because I have uncles who will put that on.

SPEAKER_03 15:58

I mean, probably if it was just like a day-long thing of reality shows, I would probably be like, that would be my hell, would be like Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 16:05

And I'd be okay with that.

SPEAKER_03 16:06

A bunch of right, exactly to each their own, right? But I I guess I'm trying to like imagine like I'd be like scratching my eyes out. Like I would be like, we need to take a break from this. I can't with this, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 16:16

I can't. It's just too much. Yeah, and like I really don't like it. And I think it's like, yeah, it like bothers me. I I shouldn't, I it's like not just boring, it like it kind of bothers me.

SPEAKER_03 16:29

So I think like it bothers you that it's like the culture of it.

SPEAKER_07 16:33

I don't like it. The competitive oh, like the aggro, the aggro I really don't like it.

Is It Wise To Befriend Coworkers

SPEAKER_03 16:39

The cheering, the high five.

SPEAKER_07 16:41

I said to Josh, it's like this is so such a me thing to say. I was like, it's just not spiritually fulfilling. It's like it's not the point of it. But I literally was like, it's not spiritually fulfilling.

SPEAKER_01 16:54

You know, that's such a great comment about just football and sports in general, it's just not spiritually fulfilling.

SPEAKER_07 17:02

But sometimes it's like I'll watch the Olympics, and it does feel spiritually fulfilling. No, you're right.

SPEAKER_03 17:07

Something like there's different that that I that's a different thing, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 17:10

It's like a different thing.

SPEAKER_03 17:12

That's like countries, that's like yeah, there's just so much more. There's storylines there, not that there aren't football, but like Yeah, it's had us a different like ethos.

SPEAKER_07 17:23

Totally, and it's like football's probably at the top of that like ultra agro competitive, misogynist because I think also women never having an opportunity to play it. Not that we should, but like having this thing that's so popular that women are walled out of why would I be so engaged in something I've never played?

SPEAKER_03 17:39

Yeah, and like well, and speaking of that, as I'm cutting you off, yeah, one of the things that we kind of would drive me nuts, whether it be like even growing up or or now, would be that idea of like, oh well, the men are gonna watch the football over here and the women are gonna like prepare the food and do the women thing. Yeah, like that always is just like the this is really like not okay.

SPEAKER_07 18:04

Yeah, it's like what is what are we being into this?

SPEAKER_03 18:07

Yeah, exactly. Right. And I guess I could respond to that be by being like, I'm gonna invest myself in football, but it's like I do feel allergic to or we could invest ourselves in just not watching it and watch something else, or just not watch TV and like actually like engage with our family. Yeah, like do something different ways, yeah. Like not watching football, watching football that I do. You're in your jersey with your face paints.

SPEAKER_07 18:32

I know you were like a foam finger at the time. I know you were, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:36

It's like stop lying.

SPEAKER_07 18:38

Really, yeah. Like I secretly just love football. I like trying to throw everyone off the scent. My mom is hosting like my nieces for the week. And you know, like my mom downsized, like she has a a like a what like a townhouse, that's what you'd call it. And you know, there's my brother has three kids, him and his wife, and Josh and me, and my mom and her partner, and potentially my younger brother and his girlfriend might all be sleeping. Like literally, I slept in a hallway one year, a genuine hallway with a bed in it. With a bed, even my mom put a bed there, and it's like I mean it's comical.

SPEAKER_03 19:20

Like the level just like a mattress on the floor?

SPEAKER_07 19:22

No, actually, it was a bed. Oh, interesting. But and of course, like around the holidays, you're getting sick, so I was like, sick in a in a hallway.

SPEAKER_03 19:29

Josh will be in the car. Yeah, yeah. Just turn the heat on. Yeah, you'll be fine in the driveway. Yeah, you'll be just be in the driveway.

SPEAKER_07 19:37

Yeah, but it's like talk about like boundaries. I'm like, there's some physical boundaries that are just be and the with the you know this with kids, it's like there are no boundaries. There are no boundaries, they're just kind of like in your face, touching your face, like eating your plate of food, like doing my niece, my niece sneezed into my makeup. Like literally, she wanted to see what I was doing. I had like an open thing. Of like foundation that had like a glass jar with it all the way open, sneeze directly into it.

SPEAKER_03 20:04

I was like, My kids cough in my mouth. Like they'll like they'll like be so close to me that all of a sudden they let out like a cough and it's in my mouth. It's like yeah, it's like insane. Yeah, they're not covering their mouths, they're not, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 20:18

And they just like and they're so curious too about like in in and of course, like that can be intrusive at times. Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:27

I thought you were gonna say it can be endearing, but I love that you said it's endearing. I mean intrusive, it's both, absolutely. I just thought it was funny. I think it is endearing, it's so hard left to intrusive, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 20:39

Yeah, like what did Searsha say? Like, Kelly has marker on her eyebrows, like because I like grabbed, I fill them in with makeup. The way she just was like, she told the room too. It wasn't like she was saying it to me. No, it's like just a great one.

SPEAKER_05 20:55

She probably thought it was cool.

SPEAKER_01 20:56

Yeah. If anybody else wants a marker on the Sharpie, I think she has them in her backpack.

SPEAKER_06 21:06

Yeah, looking for their like a silver one in there, too.

SPEAKER_07 21:10

Or like Josh and I one time were just like kind of lovingly embracing, which we like always do. We like always like hugging each other, holding each other. And she was kind of like, What are you doing? Like, you know, like just like you're supposed to hug me, right?

SPEAKER_03 21:23

You know, yeah, 100%. When my kids see me in Sarah like hugging or whatever, they're like, ooh, romance. Like that's what they say.

SPEAKER_04 21:30

Romance.

SPEAKER_03 21:31

They're like, oh, romance. It's so romance, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 21:37

But yeah, it's like, but those boundaries, it's like they're intruded on, but like it I think it bothers both of us less because it's so understandable. It's like they're the kids in there, right? You know, and you can actually be more direct. It's like, actually, I need the space here, and then they're kind of like, oh, and then they like forget about it.

SPEAKER_03 21:55

So, how wise is it to engage in anti-aging?

SPEAKER_07 22:00

So, yeah, any effort toward aging backwards, anti-aging, not aging. Yeah, that whole realm.

SPEAKER_03 22:08

So, so this is where I need clarification because I'm a dinosaur in a lot of ways.

SPEAKER_07 22:13

But you won't be soon if you engaged in some anti-aging.

SPEAKER_03 22:16

Oh, well played. Um, so what I guess, like I need some clarification. Is this to literally try to stop? I know not literally, because you can't do this, yeah. But trying to stop looking older, you're stopping the aging process, you're trying to like put a pause on it. Yeah, this is not like wellness as you age, that's a different thing. So, like my mind initially automatically goes to like cosmetic surgery, like trying not to look like you like just you're basically looking 30 the rest of your life. That's the goal, is you're trying to like look like that. But maybe I'm way off base here.

SPEAKER_07 23:01

No, I think I mean, and that here's the thing, too, is like how many people that are arguing, it's like it's about health and longevity secretly care more about the opinion.

SPEAKER_03 23:11

I mean, judgmentally, I think it's not wise at all.

SPEAKER_07 23:14

Okay, tell me. Well, I I I'm here for this.

SPEAKER_03 23:18

How do you I mean it you're I I just don't really know how you can't do it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:29

Oh, next question. Next question.

SPEAKER_03 23:31

Um End of podcast. Enjoy. No, I just like you're gonna age. And the thing is, is I there's so many examples of people that have maybe engaged in it, if I'm understanding this correctly, that end up on the back end looking just like not yeah, they just don't look um human. I right. I'm trying to not say it in like a mean way, but they don't they look like a shell of themselves, they're younger selves. And how many times do you see or hear, like if they you know, uh and even examples of people that have aged, possibly we don't know, but naturally that look great, right? And yeah, I I don't know. I guess there's such a vanity to it, yeah, that it's like one, you're never gonna you're gonna age, yeah. And are are you gonna end up aging and just looking like this fake plasticky yeah? But then again, I don't know if it's just plastic surgery. So it's like that's why I'm like curious.

SPEAKER_07 24:32

Well, yeah, maybe we have to think of it or like at least like engage with the different parts of it. Because like, why is it not okay to show the age?

SPEAKER_03 24:40

Well, that's the whole thing. I guess that's also is the thing of like why what is the problem with aging?

SPEAKER_07 24:46

Right.

SPEAKER_03 24:46

But like where does that come from?

SPEAKER_07 24:48

Yeah, maybe that's a deeper question we're getting into. Like, what is our fear with that? What is our judgment of that? I yeah, I don't I'm like if you really live and your body deteriorates, like I mean it's fear of death.

SPEAKER_03 25:03

Like, well, sure, I'm okay, but right. Yeah, I mean, sure. I think there is a fear anxiety level, of course, of everybody's mortality. I just don't I guess that is such a superficial way to think that that's not coming, is the way that you look. It's denial. So it that that to me is where it's kind of like, what? Like, just because you look a certain way doesn't mean you've stopped aging. Yeah, right? Or just because you look a certain way doesn't mean that the calendar doesn't continue to move to the next year and keep going, you know. So I guess it is just like maybe you look younger, you feel younger, ignorance is is bliss a little bit. Like, I don't know. Yeah. Again, I'm like probably not the person to be asking.

SPEAKER_07 25:51

Yeah. Well, maybe you are though, I think because your perspective, like, I like the simplicity of that, where it's like these anti-aging efforts just simply won't take.

SPEAKER_03 26:01

So it's like or at least it's a band-aid for a while, even if some of them make you look younger.

SPEAKER_07 26:08

Yeah, I guess. Yeah, I'm trying to think for me, because it's like I use a cream each night that's like anti-aging. I'm doing this, so it's like this is gonna be our first sponsor. Yeah, yeah. Use our code, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:24

Use our code to get this anti-aging cream. It's taken years off my life now.

SPEAKER_07 26:29

I look like I'm 12. Yeah. With gratitude, it's so I do feel very mixed on it. As a therapist, as a person, as a sometimes emotion-minded sufferer at times, like sometimes like the recommendation to be grateful is like infuriating, you know, when you're like suffering and you're just like, are you kidding me? Like, I this is real, I'm in pain. Like, no, I don't want to like think about what I'm grateful for right now, which I get.

SPEAKER_03 27:04

Are you uh can I pause? Yeah, are you saying when like other people are like prescribing it to you and saying you should be grateful?

SPEAKER_07 27:13

Think about the bright side, think about yeah, like and it's like it doesn't mean gratitude's like bullshit. I think it's like it's almost like a delicate topic, and it has to be like used in the right space, right? But it's hard because it's like it it can be at times, it's like gratitude, it's like can just feel so out of reach. Yes, you know, like when I'm really scared about something, I mean, gratitude to me seems like ridiculous. It seems like something a moron would do, like in my mind, in my emotion mind, you know, like well.

SPEAKER_03 27:54

I think my emotion mind tells me, well, who gives a shit? Yeah, it like almost like okay, great, like you can name 10 things that yeah, it doesn't mean I'm not suffering right now. This is still hell. Yeah, that's what my emotion it just completely disregards it.

SPEAKER_07 28:08

Yeah, maybe it's like I I probably really don't like it if someone is or I, I should say me, me being someone, am in really sincere like pain about something.

SPEAKER_03 28:22

And their help to you would be to try to think about the positive. Yeah, that's tough.

SPEAKER_07 28:28

You know, like there's so much that's great going on right now. It's like I I when people say that to me, and I'm in it, especially if I'm in a lot of pain or worry about something, I feel like I'm living on another planet than them. And I'm just like, I can't with this. Josh knows this. Like, and sometimes like Josh will do this really well, like remind me of like all this laundry list of like different things I've found to just worry insanely about.

SPEAKER_06 28:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 28:55

And I'm like, you're right. I'm just like straight up addicted to any kind of worry that I can find. And it helps me, like, it takes me out of myself where he's like, Well, last week you worried about this, like you thought you had cancer of this kind the other week, and now you think it's this one, yeah. And now you think this is wrong with your friend, and this person's really mad at you, and this issue at work's never gonna get resolved, and this thing with the car is always gonna be bad. And I'm like, Oh my god, like I'm addicted to worrying. I said that to him this week. I was like, I'm addicted to worrying. Like, hello, my name is Callie, I'm addicted to worry. It's like apparently my favorite thing because I find it everywhere I go. And I lately, I again said this to Josh. I was like, I'm over at this point, this many years of therapy, this much self-reflection, I'm quitting worry cold turkey. I said that to him last week. I was like, Was that your intention? And honestly, I've done okay with resolution where I really am like when I wander over there, I'm like slapping my wrist. Like, we're done with this BS.

SPEAKER_01 30:01

Like tough, tough love.

Sports, Gender Norms, And Family Boundaries

SPEAKER_07 30:03

Like, what if something great happens here, or what if something neutral happens here? Like this, this like need for it to be negative, yeah, is just killing you. I said to him, I was like, worry is the disease. Worry is the disease. Like it really feels like and it it felt empowering like to say that this week, maybe next week it wouldn't feel that way, but like I've gotta set it down. And yeah, maybe be grateful, maybe like slow down and look at like, is anything on fire in this moment?

SPEAKER_06 30:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 30:32

And usually when I look around, it's like I feel like things are going so well in my life right now. I mean, everything almost.

SPEAKER_06 30:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 30:39

It's like I find something to just worry about to the point where I can't sleep. Yeah, and it's like you're doing this, it's you. Yeah, call is coming from inside the house. But sometimes when I'm worried and someone's like, is that helpful? I'm like, I don't give a fuck. I'm like, I'm worried, you know. It's like helpful. Yeah, I'm dying.

SPEAKER_03 31:02

Like, it's like I'm gonna be honest here, I'm gonna be vulnerable. We're therapists. I don't like gratitude journals.

SPEAKER_07 31:10

Yeah, that's fair.

SPEAKER_03 31:11

I just feel like they're so overdone, and it's just grab a piece of paper. Yeah, and get out of my I just I don't need like I have a million little notebooks around. I don't need a leather bound mole skin. Now there's there's nothing wrong with the the if that works for people, and also a lot of people do need prompts. Like writing is not everybody's like forte, and and like the prompts can be useful. I just don't I feel like it's so saturated and overdone a little that for some reason it just you go to like a Barnes and Noble and they're like there's a whole section of that. And I don't know if for some reason that rubs me the wrong way. Yeah, does that make me a bad person?

SPEAKER_07 31:54

No, no, I think it is it's pretty generic. I mean some people like that. I almost said this is reminding me of like now this is a tangent, but have you heard of it?

SPEAKER_01 32:05

Oh no, we never do those, Kelly. How that what a faux pod in this podcast.

SPEAKER_07 32:10

Yeah, I the like obviously gratitude journal makes me just think of journals in general. Have you heard of bullet journaling?

SPEAKER_03 32:18

That practice makes no sense to me.

SPEAKER_07 32:21

I mean, I watched talk about something.

SPEAKER_03 32:23

When that got very when that got very popular, yeah, was that like maybe like five, ten years ago when that got when that first started and got really popular?

SPEAKER_07 32:31

Yeah, about that.

SPEAKER_03 32:32

I was like, okay, like I'll look into this. And I think I watched maybe 10 YouTube videos on how to do it. It makes no sense to me.

SPEAKER_07 32:40

Yeah, it's like a really complex system of like writing your tasks and putting them into it.

SPEAKER_03 32:46

Yes, extremely complex.

SPEAKER_07 32:47

And it's like it's almost like it's so much planning that you're not actually living, you're just doing anything. Yeah. Like where it's just like this is a cover.

SPEAKER_03 32:57

Yeah, so is that like instead of living your life and doing what's on this list, you're gonna make 10 more pages of symbols with five different colored markers. And right again, that must I mean that I haven't seen or heard anybody talk about that. Is that like was that a fad that's a good idea?

SPEAKER_07 33:16

I don't think there's any person alive that kept doing it. Who could? Those people are like in a bunker somewhere, like just all they have is a journal.

SPEAKER_00 33:25

I have no friends, no family.

SPEAKER_07 33:27

They have a journal.

SPEAKER_03 33:29

They're journaling to each other.

SPEAKER_01 33:30

Letters get me out of this bunker. I'm stuck.

SPEAKER_07 33:34

It's like crazy. I remember seeing it, and I was just like, this is almost like a version of self-harm, you know. And it's also like if you it's like so much journaling that you're like, do you ever look up from the page and like think about your existence? Like, think about identity.

SPEAKER_03 33:49

I kind of forgot that that thing even existed until you just said it.

SPEAKER_07 33:52

Yeah. Like I think it's cool, like when people say, like, oh, I've kept a journal every day since I was a kid, I'm like, I I'm so impressed by that.

SPEAKER_03 34:01

And therein lies a dirty little secret that I'm gonna share. I love seeing somebody who has an organized journal. Yeah, there is something to be said about it, and I love the look of it. And if somebody like has really nice handwriting, and if they can write in all capitals and make it look nice, I love that.

SPEAKER_07 34:19

Totally. And it's also like Do you have the foresight to think that one day someone's gonna publish this? Or like Right. I don't know. I'm like, wow, when I was a kid, I was such an idiot. Like, you know, I'm just like playing with my Barbies, like journaling.

SPEAKER_03 34:32

Journaling.

SPEAKER_07 34:33

I feel like I'd have like a journal someone got me for my birthday and like write one entry that was like a big thing. Did it have like a little lock?

SPEAKER_03 34:39

Did it have like a little bit of a lock and a little T.

SPEAKER_07 34:42

Yeah, of course, for my brothers. I had to lock it.

SPEAKER_03 34:45

I just wanted to be clear. I have nothing against writing, nothing against journaling in general. I do. I think it's the package, I think it's the package that it's like put in that makes me cringe a little. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 35:02

Yeah, maybe it's like here's your little book of gratitude. And it's maybe like the concept is so huge, you're sort of it's like reductive or it's like patronizing or something.

SPEAKER_03 35:14

I think patronizing might be a good word for it.

SPEAKER_07 35:18

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:20

How wise is it?

SPEAKER_07 35:22

How wise is it? So today we're asking how wise is it to be basically like really gung-ho about your birthday?

SPEAKER_01 35:31

Which you couldn't even say it without.

SPEAKER_07 35:33

Which but I know, but maybe that is even kind of related to gratitude, I think. But what do you what do you think? How wise is it to really lavish your birthday?

SPEAKER_03 35:42

Never uh uh before I get into the how wise is it, I've never been that type of person. You've not liked my birthday for sure as a child.

SPEAKER_07 35:52

Yeah, yeah, same.

SPEAKER_03 35:53

Never got into as an adult, let's celebrate me. Yeah, not really for me. Yeah. And now the great part about it is because I'm like that. My oldest son is born on my birthday. We share birthdays.

SPEAKER_07 36:09

That's so nice.

SPEAKER_03 36:10

So all the attention's on him now. And I love that.

SPEAKER_07 36:13

Yeah, what what about the attention feels I don't know? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:18

Probably awkward a little bit.

SPEAKER_07 36:20

Yeah.

Anti‑Aging: Vanity, Fear, And Acceptance

SPEAKER_03 36:20

When the attention's on you for like celebrating you for something you had no hand in. Yeah. I didn't do anything. It's more like global, like who celebrate my parents as a person. But I did have friends that were like, what are we doing for my birthday? Yeah. Like really putting it out there. Yeah. Eek.

SPEAKER_07 36:40

See, I know.

SPEAKER_01 36:41

I don't know if that was like I haven't thought about it at all.

SPEAKER_07 36:45

Sometimes I like really.

SPEAKER_01 36:47

I haven't been thinking about your birthday as much as you've been thinking about your birthday.

SPEAKER_07 36:50

It's your fucking birthday. It's your birthday. Yeah. Just kidding. I'm actually terrible at remembering people's birthdays. I'm terrible at putting them in my calendar. I feel to all my loved ones. Okay, wait.

SPEAKER_03 37:01

Let's pause here. Guess my birthday. Let's see if you know.

SPEAKER_07 37:04

Yours is July 26th. Close. 27th. Close. 25th.

SPEAKER_03 37:10

23rd.

SPEAKER_07 37:11

It's in my calendar. It is.

SPEAKER_03 37:12

Don't look. 30th.

SPEAKER_07 37:14

30th. Damn it. Now damn it.

SPEAKER_01 37:17

I want to guess yours.

SPEAKER_07 37:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 37:20

And I have a strong poll and I think it's wrong.

SPEAKER_07 37:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 37:25

April 8th.

SPEAKER_08 37:26

No.

SPEAKER_03 37:27

Are you in March? Yeah. I knew. See, I wanted to go March, and then I talked myself out of it because I was like, wait, is it that I'm just like making a stereotype of her being Irish?

SPEAKER_01 37:37

But like a St. Paddy's Day type of thing. Like March 17th.

SPEAKER_00 37:41

Oh LBGS. Oh of course. Let me guess. Let me guess you get super drunk.

SPEAKER_04 37:47

Aren't all Irish people born on March 17th?

unknown 37:50

Totally.

SPEAKER_03 37:51

Uh so then then now I'm really thrown off then. Uh March 23rd.

SPEAKER_07 37:56

No.

SPEAKER_03 37:57

March 11th. Yeah. Terrible. It's in my phone. It's in my phone.

SPEAKER_07 38:00

It doesn't bother me if someone forgets because I am so bad at remembering. And also, it's probably on your phone. Yours is in my phone. Right. Yeah. Too many to remember.

SPEAKER_03 38:08

Too many to remember.

SPEAKER_07 38:10

Yeah. I do sometimes have respect for someone who not not someone who's like obnoxious about it, but someone who is like, you know, it's gonna be my birthday. Like, would you want to go out to dinner? Like kind of planning a little something. I'm like, you know what then? It's like brave and like so great. It is brave. We're all busy and whatever. So maybe someone like didn't have the wherewithal to like throw you one or you don't have a best friend or a partner or something.

SPEAKER_03 38:34

It is brave.

SPEAKER_07 38:35

It's it's brave for sure. Um it's bold, it's bold. Yeah. It's a bold because I think I do something worse where it's like I have such a like a complicated relationship to it.

SPEAKER_03 38:46

It's like is it wise though? Are you setting yourself up for disappointment if if somebody's like, oh, I'm busy that day?

SPEAKER_07 38:52

Well it but it was my birthday, and that's the thing I think that's hard about birthdays. It's like you feel like you're supposed to be like doing something so great, and it's like that's kind of rare. The pressure of it is kind of hard.

SPEAKER_03 39:05

Yeah, and some people hate their birthdays.

SPEAKER_07 39:08

I I don't love my birthday, and it's like I want people to celebrate me, but sometimes it's also uncomfortable. Like, I'm like, if someone doesn't, I'm kind of like, oh, that's sad. Like if someone, if I see someone on my birthday and they just like talk to me normally, sometimes I'm like, well, that's a bit sad. And then it's like, if someone's overly celebratory, I feel like embarrassed or like I don't deserve it or something.

SPEAKER_03 39:31

Right.

SPEAKER_07 39:32

So it's like you kind of stuck. And then the next day you're just like, whoo, I can just like hang with my people.

SPEAKER_03 39:37

And I mean, power to the people who love their birthday and want to do something and want to get other people involved. That's great for them. Yeah. And if that works for them, great. Yeah. I feel like it's a lot of pressure.

SPEAKER_07 39:52

And what's like the big milestone birthday where people tend to do a bigger thing? Is it 40? Is it 50?

SPEAKER_03 39:57

Yeah, probably 40 and 50, right? Because I guess.

SPEAKER_07 40:00

Like that's when you have money and you're like working a lot and you're not like looking at retirement or like just starting out.

SPEAKER_03 40:05

Yeah, and maybe the lens is like well, it's dark, but half your life you've lived. Yeah. If we're thinking of averages. Right. Maybe. So it's like you're halfway there.

SPEAKER_01 40:16

You're halfway to death. So to dead.

SPEAKER_03 40:20

Well, let's party now. Let's live. Yeah. Pretty soon.

SPEAKER_07 40:24

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_03 40:25

You're gonna have uh a lot more medical stuff going on.

SPEAKER_00 40:30

You're gonna be in a hospital bed for one of these birthdays. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:33

You're gonna be, yeah. A lot of screenings are coming up.

SPEAKER_06 40:37

Totally.

SPEAKER_07 40:39

How wise is it to indulge in kind of more like cheap processed candy and sweets?

SPEAKER_03 40:46

Yes.

SPEAKER_07 40:46

How wise is it to indulge in more fancy highbrow? Like highbrow crated kind of like European? Yeah. Haute cuisine, haute cuisine type of sweets. Right. Desserts that are like fancy, expensive, high quality.

SPEAKER_03 41:06

It's a great question.

SPEAKER_07 41:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:08

And the and the genesis of this was you all offered me candy.

SPEAKER_07 41:13

Yes. Josh, take it away.

SPEAKER_05 41:16

I offered you a chocolate fish.

SPEAKER_03 41:18

Yes, which I did not take, but the comparison was the fish is like Gelt. Which I love Gelt.

SPEAKER_05 41:25

Anyone ever had Gelt? It's a Jewish currency. Yes. If you've celebrated Hanukkah, it's really cheap chocolate wrapped in aluminum foil. And it's thin, it's delicious, it melts in your mouth. And it snaps too. It's got that snap.

SPEAKER_03 41:42

It's so good. But then the question became like, ooh, yeah, how wise is it? Because then it's like cheap versus expensive.

SPEAKER_07 41:50

Yeah. Well, because we got another type of chocolate from Josh's sister, which were the reason she gave it to us is because it's in the shape of little like tinned fish, and we love tinned fish, but it's actually chocolate in there. So she kind of wanted us to display it. And when we tasted it, it tasted kind of weird. But now Josh is like really coming around to it. I can't stop eating them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 42:11

We'll be watching Game of Thrones. I'm like, when's my next fish coming? I can't wait for this episode to end.

SPEAKER_06 42:16

Like you're living in King's.

SPEAKER_05 42:19

There's like three left. It's like there's so many more episodes. We're on season three of Game of Thrones. It's like there's more than three episodes of Game of Thrones left. There's only three fish, and I'm about to offer John one. So would you like to try one on air? No pressure.

SPEAKER_03 42:32

I'll try one on air. Yeah, John. Let's do it.

SPEAKER_07 42:34

This is like John's about to try. Said chocolate.

SPEAKER_03 42:38

But this is like a sardine, or is it a shrunk?

SPEAKER_07 42:41

Is it supposed to be like a it's supposed to be a sardine?

SPEAKER_03 42:45

Sardines.

SPEAKER_07 42:46

Right? They're the kind of the size of sardines.

SPEAKER_03 42:48

I mean, it looks good. You love sardines.

SPEAKER_07 42:50

Josh's grandfather gives us sardines a lot because I like them.

SPEAKER_03 42:54

This already reminds me of before I'm gonna eat this. This already reminds me of around Christmas time, the holidays, you can get like little snowmen like this, or little now I love those. Or little toy soldiers like this. Or um like nutcrackers or whatever. But this it's the same kind of thickness. That's what this is already reminding of. Well now I wish I'd just another example of cheap chocolate that I like. I'm on board.

SPEAKER_07 43:26

So it's it maybe it's all psychological for me.

SPEAKER_03 43:29

I like them. They've gotten better than that.

SPEAKER_07 43:31

I like the the snowman. Maybe I just love Christmas. I love Christmas.

SPEAKER_03 43:36

Oh, so you're attributing because you like the thin. That's what this reminds me of.

SPEAKER_07 43:40

I like a chocolate bunny too. But I like that they're hollow.

SPEAKER_03 43:45

Or maybe it's that all chocolate is good. There's just differing levels of it. Yeah, how good is good. How good is it?

SPEAKER_07 43:52

And is the like high quality more expensive? Mean it's better. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 43:56

Yeah, I don't know. I feel bad. I'm like eating in the mic, but this is really good. Thank you. I'm glad we indulged in it. It's really good sound.

SPEAKER_05 44:04

Um, the chewing, it's gonna make everyone hungry at home. It's like ASMR or whatever. Yeah, yeah, I think it's pleasing to the ear.

SPEAKER_07 44:11

It's you know what's I almost think this question is like, how wise is it if I were like a chef, a dessert chef, a pastry chef, like to do these really expensive, kind of complex desserts when like that is so delicious to you. Satisfying just chocolate, sugar, butter, whatever is so good. It's like, is it necessary? Is it gilding the lily? Or is like a warm chocolate chip cookie what everybody wants at the end of the day? Yeah. I don't know. Sometimes I don't like fancy desserts. You know, it's like yeah, it's sugar, it's chocolate. Don't overthink it.

SPEAKER_03 44:52

But then the what you're gonna hate on everything you get for Halloween? You're gonna eat something out of that. Yeah, not all of that's high quality. You're not getting girardellies in your I don't like girardellies. I know, but people will like claim that it's really, really good, right? Yeah, or I guess European chocolate. That's not European, but right.

SPEAKER_07 45:10

Yeah, there's like Whole Foods brands that are like super dark chocolate, you know, whatever. Or those, like, what did I get? They're hard.

SPEAKER_05 45:17

Chocolate eggs. I call them eggs, but they're not eggs. Chocolate eggs. Every night you're like, should we get an egg?

SPEAKER_01 45:23

Wait, like a Cadbury egg?

SPEAKER_05 45:25

No, I love those though.

SPEAKER_07 45:26

Those are like these caramel chocolate eggs.

SPEAKER_03 45:28

Those things are crazy. It's gotta get the filling in it.

SPEAKER_07 45:30

Yeah, or what did I call it? A chocolate. Oh, I called it a turtle.

SPEAKER_03 45:34

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 45:35

Yeah, go get it. I was like, Will you get me a turtle? And you were like, they're eggs.

SPEAKER_03 45:40

I do like dove chocolate.

SPEAKER_05 45:42

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:42

Dove is good smooth in the donut conversation. Now that I'm thinking about it, I think there's really high quality ones that are great and like fantastic. And there's we were talking there's ones at the bakery at the grocery store that are great. So good.

SPEAKER_07 45:54

I mean, even sometimes the Dunkin' Donuts will hit the spot. Sure. I mean, they're not that bad.

SPEAKER_03 45:58

No, and a pinch. A little munchkin.

SPEAKER_07 46:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 46:02

It could hit a spot. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 46:05

I used to get the Valentine's one sometimes because they would have a special Valentine's one.

SPEAKER_05 46:08

Disgusting.

SPEAKER_07 46:09

I thought they were so.

SPEAKER_05 46:10

Have you tried the Sabrina Carpenter Shaken Espresso? Neither have I.

SPEAKER_07 46:17

Yeah, they do like to like partner with like a TikTok store.

SPEAKER_05 46:20

I heard someone order it and they sounded a little embarrassed. That's really funny. It was like a 40-year-old mother. Yeah. That's really funny.

SPEAKER_07 46:28

I wonder if part of writing that song was even like product placement, me espresso.

SPEAKER_05 46:32

Oh, like it was all about Dunkin'. It's not even Dunkin' Donuts anymore. It's just the world. It's Duncan. This this was all just a ruse to get me to eat one of those.

SPEAKER_07 46:41

Yeah, I didn't eat it.

SPEAKER_05 46:41

Yeah, one of those Jaguar fish, I think. Aren't I a sadist?

SPEAKER_07 46:45

We needed a third party's opinion.

SPEAKER_05 46:47

John, would you like another?

SPEAKER_03 46:48

This was like Inception. I think I came in here and you I developed this question because you all No, I'm good. But it was good. I liked it. Okay. Anyway, I could go on.

SPEAKER_05 46:58

Where's the wisdom here? Where is the wisdom?

SPEAKER_03 47:00

There is no wisdom here.

SPEAKER_07 47:02

Maybe the wisdom is like Where's the wisdom at all? This is not a really a wise question. No, we're talking about food. But we just wanted to talk about it.

SPEAKER_05 47:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 47:11

And that's wise. It is. To bend the question a little so we can experience joy.

SPEAKER_03 47:17

That's really how wise it is. Just be flexible. Be flexible. Be open to trying a chocolate fish. You never know what you might get. And if you don't like it, that's okay too. That's wise too if you don't like it.

SPEAKER_07 47:27

If you don't like it, write in.

SPEAKER_03 47:32

But I will say be open to donuts.

SPEAKER_07 47:34

Yeah. Oh yeah. Donuts are on a whole nother level because they're fried, so they're kind of savory. And then they're so, so sweet.

SPEAKER_05 47:43

Is this a plug for donuts? Yes.

Gratitude, Worry Addiction, And Journals

SPEAKER_07 47:45

That's our plug for today. Our new sponsor is donuts. Yeah. I'll plug my website. Get them fresh. And I'll suggest donuts. Get them fresh. But yeah, maybe we want to move into our acceptance. Acceptance. Yeah, so maybe we can kind of define it. I feel like there's a million ways to define it. How would you define it? Like, I guess maybe for your define it. Oh, put on the spot. Um I can put myself on the spot. Well, I'm curious more like in your work as a therapist first. We start there. How do you like talk about it, approach it, define it?

SPEAKER_03 48:20

Sure. I think just acceptance, I kind of like broadly allowing, opening yourself up, being with, right? Whatever it is that's coming up for you, and also not just for you, but the idea of like reality, like the reality of something. And you know, I think a lot of times there's the understanding that like acceptance doesn't mean that we like something. It doesn't mean we're okay with something.

SPEAKER_07 48:48

Well, okay, maybe I'll even share something that came up for me where like maybe this practice would be useful. And I don't even know if I ever got to this, but this is embarrassing. But this week I did this, this is a beauty procedure. Because whatever, I'm getting married, I'm seeing constant things about stuff on TikTok. I am in the like game of like appearance BS. And I basically did this like dyeing my eyebrows thing. Okay. And straight up, I mean, to say that I hated it would be like a staggering understatement. Like, I was like, what did I do? I look crazy, completely crazy. And it really bothered me on a level that was like almost bone chilling, how much it bothered me. And it it made me have to like slow down and realize, like, like to really notice like what is coming up within me now that I did this like goofy procedure and whatever. And it was like I had to like contact, like, there's a part of me that feels like I I look crazy or I look ugly. And you know, like, why is that bothering me? Or like, how is that bothering me?

SPEAKER_06 49:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 49:58

And there's like fear there. I think there's fear of like disconnection, especially like if I look crazy. And I'm using this judgmental word, but like in my mind, if I look crazy, it's like I'm rejected, I'm not seen, I disappear, I'm invalid. And it's all this like shadow, right? Or like painful stuff, probably of like moments or memories where maybe in my life I didn't get the attention I wanted, or the love I wanted, or the acceptance I wanted from the outside. And yeah, it was like, oh wow, this experience, which is like pretty benign. Yeah, it's like eyebrow die, who cares? Was like bringing up the sense of like I'm not gonna be loved if my appearance doesn't look normal. And normal was a big part of it. It wasn't so much like perfect, it was like normal. And yeah, it like really shook me. You know this. Like, I I was so anxious, I like woke up with anxiety about it, like shaking from anxiety. And you know, like I think probably I thought I had like really resolved some of that like body image stuff, and I think other things I have, or you go in and out of that resolution at times. You know, I'm getting married. I think it's like I I am feeling this weight of like I'm gonna be seen in a different way in that space. But yeah, it's like what is acceptance there? It's like I don't like this, this isn't what I would have chosen, and that's okay. Can I slow down and open? Like, this is my reality, this is here. I can kick and scream and ruminate on it. This is here, this is the reality, and like, can I have some compassion for myself for how that feels? Yeah, so that's one way it can't be.

SPEAKER_03 51:53

I need to kind of open. Yeah, be open to this. People may judge me, right? People may laugh at me, right?

SPEAKER_07 52:02

Yeah, people I might look stupid. There might be someone looking at me like, what the hell?

SPEAKER_03 52:07

Not that I'm okay with it, but almost like uh and I think that's it's like open to it and live with this reality.

SPEAKER_07 52:14

Live with these eyebrows.

SPEAKER_03 52:17

Live with the eyebrows. Well, now I can't stop looking at your eyebrows.

SPEAKER_07 52:20

I know, I knew that would happen.

SPEAKER_03 52:22

They look like they always look.

SPEAKER_07 52:25

Okay, I do I and the amount of relief I feel at you saying that is almost embarrassing.

SPEAKER_03 52:29

People can't see this, but we're facing each other and we're, I don't know, what are we like seven feet apart maybe? I can I don't see anything different.

SPEAKER_07 52:37

Thank you for saying that.

SPEAKER_03 52:38

I'm not just giving you re like I know you're not seeking reassurance here, and I'm I don't see anything.

SPEAKER_07 52:44

So yeah, well, I appreciate it. Josh helped me so much with this by just being like, I mean, nobody cares about your eyebrows.

SPEAKER_03 52:51

Nobody cares as much about your eyebrows as you do. And it's like, God, I think that would you feel better if I know Josh, you're right here. If Josh would have said, Yeah, you do look crazy.

SPEAKER_07 53:03

No, okay, it probably would have made me feel suicidal.

SPEAKER_01 53:08

I would have been lying. I'm not saying he should have.

SPEAKER_07 53:11

Like Okay, so should we go to our Is it wise? Oh, is it wise?

SPEAKER_03 53:17

How wise is it?

SPEAKER_07 53:18

How wise is it? We need to establish an actual name for this segment. What do we prefer? Maybe the three of us could vote right now. Think about it. Is it wise or how wise is it? John Josh voted for how wise is it? It's the boys versus the girls. It's and and I lost big time, but that's okay. How wise is it? We're sticking with it. I can't.

SPEAKER_03 53:40

Are we doing it? We're doing it from now. I can radically accept that. Wise is it?

SPEAKER_07 53:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:44

I think for today, let's do how wise is it. How wise is it? Okay, so our question for today is how wise is it to check a bag when you're traveling?

SPEAKER_07 53:54

Check a bag at the airport when you're traveling.

SPEAKER_03 53:55

At the airport when you're traveling.

SPEAKER_07 53:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:57

And I'm excited about this one because I think you and I have differing opinions on this. Yeah. So, but I want to hear your perspective first because I want to be open and accepting that maybe I'm not being wise about this. Tell me your perspective.

SPEAKER_07 54:12

I think these days and we can think about, you know, whatever, in the 90s checking bags is a whole different game. But because remember we used to be free to check a bag. Do you remember that? When we were little.

SPEAKER_03 54:26

Yeah, it was free. Certain airlines still offer really a free check bag, I think. Don't they?

unknown 54:34

No.

SPEAKER_07 54:34

I know some do free carry-on. Or what? Well, maybe some of the things. Well, obviously, I'm tipping my hand here.

SPEAKER_03 54:41

See, I'm tipping my hand here because I never check a bag. So I don't know the fee structure. Ah, okay. Anyway.

SPEAKER_07 54:46

I should know it because I do both.

SPEAKER_03 54:47

But so you I often pay.

SPEAKER_07 54:48

I feel like I always pay at this point. But yeah, so I do in this in 2025, I think that it is wise to check a bag because so often the woman at the front desk. We need 15 passengers to check their carry-ons because there's not enough space on this flight. Then the message gets more aggressive. Nobody has come up yet. Nobody of these 15 passengers has volunteered.

SPEAKER_03 55:16

So then so wait a second, are you saying it's wise to check or to not because they're gonna get checked anyway? Okay, so you okay, but you're saying just check it and rip the band-aid off.

SPEAKER_07 55:27

Yeah, and then you can bring your full bottles of shampoo and you can bring everything, all your hair products, all your shit options for clothes.

SPEAKER_03 55:36

Got it. You're a full shampoo person. Well, you like that.

SPEAKER_07 55:41

I'm more like, I don't want to be too hemmed in.

SPEAKER_03 55:44

I want some options in that and it feels breezy to you to check it, and then it's like I got nothing. I got uh like what do you got? A backpack or a purse? You got nothing with you? A purse, a purse.

SPEAKER_07 55:54

So I would cruise around the airport in a purse.

SPEAKER_03 55:56

So it feels breezy, feels very breezy.

SPEAKER_07 55:59

Now I will say you're you're gonna run yourself$45 each way. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So you have to be at least packing that much. Yeah. My back can be so light. And my family will lift it up and be like, geez, what have you gotten here?

SPEAKER_00 56:16

It's like that's a normal way.

SPEAKER_03 56:18

That's your that's your calling card, is that you typically or you have a history of it. But I'm like over and overpacking. Yeah, I think all my family thinks I'm are you bringing like a blow dryer?

SPEAKER_07 56:30

I'm not just bringing I'm bringing a curling iron, blow dryer, straightener, and diffuse.

SPEAKER_03 56:34

Oh, yeah, you're checking a bag anyway.

SPEAKER_07 56:36

I mean, I'm checking it. There's not even debate working. Yeah, like it's crazy. You work from home.

SPEAKER_03 56:42

I still I lean in the direction of it's not that wise to check a bit. I do not like checking my luggage. I don't I like having it with me. There's a few reasons why I think I can pack. I mean, I think carry-ons are pretty big. Like for me.

SPEAKER_06 57:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 57:02

And Sarah always laughs at me because she's like, Your clothes are so big. Like compared to like her and my kids, she's like, How do you even like live? Like, how do you like you can't like pack anything?

SPEAKER_07 57:13

But yeah, your arms are long and your legs are long.

SPEAKER_03 57:16

Yeah, and my clothing is just more material.

SPEAKER_02 57:19

So it's like it's like yeah, kids' clothes is just like yeah, it's just boop boop boop.

SPEAKER_03 57:23

Yeah, it's in there. Yeah, uh, and then with kids, like you're like gate checking like strollers, you're gate-checking like cars, or I guess you can't gate check out.

SPEAKER_07 57:31

I know every family has like 13 bags if you have like a child.

SPEAKER_03 57:35

It's really hard when they're that little. Yeah, and it depends on where you're going. Because if you don't know anybody, you gotta bring the stroller, you gotta bring the right.

SPEAKER_07 57:43

Sometimes a pack and play.

SPEAKER_03 57:44

Oh, yeah. You gotta bring all that. I know it's hard. Yeah, that's a lot of stuff.

SPEAKER_07 57:50

It's like you almost need like a butler to carry all the stuff, which we would never have, but wow.

SPEAKER_03 57:55

It's it's a lot, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 57:57

Sheesh. Their topic today is perfectionism.

SPEAKER_03 58:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 58:04

There are so many like lay definitions of this.

SPEAKER_03 58:08

Yeah, it is something that's almost like omnipresent with therapy, and and just it's just something that comes up so much.

SPEAKER_07 58:15

Each person's perfectionist probably has a slight different tone to it. I mean, it's like I know who said this quote. Someone, but I share it often with my clients that you know, the more you try to control your life, the less and less life there is to control. So, like that controlling how perfect something comes out. And not even just the more like obvious places it comes out, like appearance or your work, but even like perfecting the time your friends have hanging out at your house.

SPEAKER_03 58:47

Oh, yeah, that comes up a lot.

SPEAKER_07 58:49

But I really do think it's such a socially sanctioned, like approved of part of people. Right? It's one of those protectors that's like society likes this, you know, wants me, bosses like this. Yes. Sometimes partners like this.

SPEAKER_06 59:06

Right.

SPEAKER_07 59:06

Yeah, and so it's like having to like validate it, really allow it, and then explore it and let that part of someone speak up. Because so I'm sure you've had this experience, I know you have. Where when you start to work on it, there is a lot of defensiveness. Like, I don't want to let this go. Right, you know, like what will become of me?

SPEAKER_03 59:29

Yeah. You know what drives people nuts when I'm doing this topic with them sometimes because we have those whiteboards in the group space sometimes. Yeah. I just I on purpose misspell words.

SPEAKER_00 59:40

I love that.

SPEAKER_03 59:41

And the more often than not, they're like, Are you the straight face? They're like, Are you doing this on purpose? Like they're they're really pissed off. And I'm like, Well, kind of.

SPEAKER_07 59:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 59:52

Like, well, let's just do a little experiential here. Like, what yeah, what is your urge right now? Is it to come up here and fix this? And like, right, like I'm not gonna write it like that in my paper. It's like I'm not telling you to write it on your notes. It's just so interesting, even that reaction of like totally.

SPEAKER_07 1:00:07

Like I can't you misspelled a word.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:09

It's like I know I smell yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:00:10

Yeah, sometimes I I will get that very resistant to even like the conversation. Yeah, it can be such a like really intense part of someone. Yeah, to even see something misspelled, it's like, ugh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:24

Well, and the comparison piece comes up so hard in this topic too, like when talking to people, like what feeds it, it's the comparison, it's the I could be better, look what this person did, I could do better than that, I could be you know more educated, I could be prettier, whatever it is. I could be thinner, I it's the comparison feeds it so much too. Yeah, and there's always something to compare it to with social media or you know, there's so much out there that you can just consume that will feed this totally and ramp it up, limit that social media use as much as humanly possible.

SPEAKER_07 1:01:01

Because like getting away from like images of perfection can really help people, and getting like out of your even looking at yourself, you know, get out in the world, you know, what is it? Get get out of your head and into your life. Oh, is that get out of your get out of your head and get into my car? And into my head. Is that what that is? I mean really that works.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:28

Or was that for some reason I thought it was like John Kabat Zen or something like that? Get out of your no.

SPEAKER_07 1:01:33

Maybe it is. It's not like I'm gonna look that up right now.

Acceptance In Practice: Appearance Anxiety

SPEAKER_03 1:01:36

Get out of your head and into your head and into my car.

SPEAKER_07 1:01:42

Into my car.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:43

Is that what it was?

SPEAKER_05 1:01:45

Who sings that?

SPEAKER_03 1:01:46

Um who does sing that song?

SPEAKER_07 1:01:48

Yeah, good question. I think it's a sort of sort of thing.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:49

Is it Huey Lewis in the news? Oh, I wish. It's definitely not. Every song I don't know is by Mam.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:55

I wish. I love Huey Lewis in the news. Yeah, they're great. So great. Get out of your head. Is that just what it's called?

SPEAKER_07 1:02:02

That's the reform. Get out of your oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:06

So Stephen Hayes wrote Get Out of Your Mind and Into Your Life.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:09

Get Out of Your Mind.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:11

The new acceptance and commitment therapy book by Stephen Hayes. Get out of your mind and into your life.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:16

It's great, great stuff. I was uh hearing on another podcast they were talking about how like they love titles of books that like are so good you don't even have to read the book. Get out of your mind and into your life.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:28

Sort of like, I don't need to read that.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:30

There was one where it was like really don't need to read that. Yeah, now I know. Or he's like, feel the fear, do it anyway. It's like, thank you.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:37

And to answer your question, it's Billy Ocean.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:40

Billy Ocean.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:41

Billy Ocean 1988.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:43

That's an incredible name.

unknown 1:02:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:45

Do you think it's a song?

SPEAKER_03 1:02:46

He also sang uh Caribbean Queen. That was another popular song by Billy Ocean. Where's it going? I'm not gonna sing it on the cast, but um check it out. It's out there.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:57

Get out of my mind. No, I think the song is Get Out of My Head.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:05

Is it? Get Out of My Dreams. Get in my dreams.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:07

Oh, it's Get Out of My Dreams. Get out of my dreams. Yeah. We are so far.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:15

Psychologists Paul Hewitt and Gordon Flett identified three forms of perfectionism in their 1991 paper. So definitely dated. But um, so certainly perfectionism for the self is self-oriented perfectionism, having unrealistic expectations for yourself, holding yourself to perfect standards, and being hard on yourself when you don't meet those expectations. So that would be the first category. The second category is other-oriented perfectionism, having unrealistic expectations for others, holding others to perfect standards, and being hard on others when they don't meet those expectations.

SPEAKER_07 1:03:49

I'll do this so much where it's like, this driver, why aren't they doing exactly what they're supposed to be doing as a driver? Yeah. You know, next to me. And it's like you really want to like control the other people in your experience. Yes. Like you want to create this like perfectly comfortable, predictable environment.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:07

Yeah. Have I shared on this podcast like my one of my emotion-minded thoughts that I have when I'm driving a lot of the time that's completely absurd?

SPEAKER_06 1:04:15

What?

SPEAKER_03 1:04:15

It's if everybody just drove the way I did, this wouldn't be happening.

SPEAKER_07 1:04:21

Oh my god, I love it.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:24

In a traffic jam. And this is the thought my mind is giving me.

SPEAKER_07 1:04:28

I love it.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:28

My mind is telling me if everybody just drove like you, because you're so good at driving, like that's in reality at all. But the idea is the most absurd idea that if everybody was just driving, there wouldn't be a bottleneck here, there wouldn't be a traffic jam. There would that is like one of the most I'd be set, unbelievably emotion-minded thoughts that I have when I'm in traffic.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:52

But it but it taps into that idea of like, I'm perfect right now. I'm driving perfectly.

SPEAKER_07 1:04:57

Yeah, and everyone else better shape up. Our old co-worker, our old coworker and office mate, shout out to James. He would sometimes like would we would complain to other people at the end of our like complaints and go, Not everyone can be us.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:11

Not everyone can be us.

SPEAKER_07 1:05:12

It really was like the best reality check.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:14

That was uh that was a mic drop when he said that.

SPEAKER_07 1:05:17

Yeah, not everyone can be us. Yeah, it's like getting in that mode of like really expecting others to be perfect, and that really is like about comfort, you know. Yeah, I I mean, I feel like I'm in this 90% of the day. It's right even, yeah, I mean, so much. I'm like, why are they doing something that doesn't suit me?

SPEAKER_04 1:05:46

This is about me.

SPEAKER_07 1:05:47

Doesn't help me or echo everything I've ever heard about.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:49

This world is about me right now.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:52

You know what really challenges the perfection or the perfectionistic maybe tendencies is just having children. I mean, having kids, it's like you have to sit with your own discomfort. I've had to sit with my own discomfort of just like watching mistake after mistake after mistake being made when you know there's an easier way to do it, or you know there's again, not a right way to do it, but it's like this wouldn't take so many steps if you if my kid just did it this way. Right. And you really gotta sit with that and like tolerate like this is an important lesson, this is an important moment for them to don't force them in a direction of this is the way, you know, to do it. You kind of have to sit with that of watching them like make a lot of mistakes.

SPEAKER_07 1:06:38

Yeah, I feel like I'll unconsciously help my nieces do stuff that I probably should let them struggle with, like even getting up on the couch, the little one.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:46

A Kelly, I do it consciously with my kids.

SPEAKER_07 1:06:48

Here's how you do it.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:50

I know I should probably let them do this this way, and I'm like, for time's sake or for even probably just my own discomfort, it's like just do it this way.

SPEAKER_07 1:06:58

Yeah, you know, just do it the right way.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:00

Let me pour the milk. Totally so you don't spell it, yeah. Yeah, it's nothing against them, they're kids, they're gonna make those mistakes. It's hard though, yeah, to to sit with that sometimes.

SPEAKER_07 1:07:12

Yeah, it's really a lot of the time. Yeah, I'll even let's like the little ones pushing the circle and the square toy, and it's like, oh no, and you like fix it, and you're like fixing it. That's not the point of this damn toy for like an adult to be like a square ghost and a square. It's like so not the point.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:31

Let me show you the right way to do this.

SPEAKER_07 1:07:33

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:35

Because there is a right and a wrong way, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:07:37

I know. And we want you to learn.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:40

It is tough.

SPEAKER_07 1:07:40

But like I've never been a person where like that identifies as a perfectionist. Really, I'm I feel in my bones, I'm like, I don't think I'm a perfectionist. I had an older brother that was like the prodigy golden child, did everything well all the time, one and a half years older than me. I think it's like to be perfect would just be to like still live in his shadow, probably. I uh as a young child, I really did the opposite. Like, as a young child, I remember I would like get little pages of homework from school. I would just like toss them up. They went no, like, who wouldn't do them? And I would get in trouble. I remember consciously being like, I'm gonna feel like doing that. Like, really had the opposite of perfectionism, like very like, I'm not interested. You know, I still have, I'm sure you're laughing because I have a part of me.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:29

What how little like I'm imagining like a tiny page, like a polypocket.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:38

That's so funny.

Travel Debate: Checking A Bag

SPEAKER_00 1:08:39

A tiny little page. No, like a sheet, I imagine.

SPEAKER_07 1:08:42

Stock it out the window. You know, I just would like, or like, you know, just bury it in my folder and like, and then the teacher would be like, Did you do your homework?

SPEAKER_03 1:08:49

And I was like, What homework?

SPEAKER_07 1:08:52

And it's like, I remember I from third to fourth grade, I committed. I was like, you know what? I'm done with all this crap. Like, I'm gonna start doing my homework because I'm getting I remember thinking it's too embarrassing. But for me to be unique, I almost had to be not good. Not good, you know, to like stand out and be separated.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:10

Well, yeah, that was unique, that was the unique mold because the the other mold was already taken. And so you went, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:09:16

And I was incredibly like dramatic and emotional, which he wasn't. And I think some of that probably was a need.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:24

I still am. A little dramatic. Dramatic emotional nutkins.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:28

We don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:30

Well, maybe this takes us to our how wise is it?

SPEAKER_07 1:09:33

Yeah, we have a goofy one today.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:35

It's a great one, though.

SPEAKER_07 1:09:36

It's great.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:36

So I was sitting at what felt like a very long stoplight, and I had this come to me because of what was sitting in front of me. But the idea is how wise is it to have bumper stickers? Yeah. And and you're a new car owner as well, which is another thing that I thought of, right? Didn't you just get a new car?

SPEAKER_07 1:09:57

So yeah, it's still on its way to four weeks minimum. Yeah, so it's like the long journey.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:05

I sent Josh and Kelly the picture of the car I was sitting behind because the bumper sticker in front of me said, Driver picks the music, shotgun shuts his cake hole. I mean, so it just occurred to me like is it wise to like put that specific bumper sticker? It's very wise. It just so that what is that? It just made me think of um any bumper sticker. But yes, I mean, like, is it wise to put I mean it's a blank canvas, obviously. Yeah, right?

SPEAKER_07 1:10:43

But well, maybe that I like this question starting with like almost like what's the point of one?

SPEAKER_05 1:10:50

I think that one's telegraphing, I'm an asshole. Yeah, and I'm aware I'm aware of it, and it's kind of funny.

SPEAKER_07 1:10:57

Hey, I'm an asshole.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:59

Yeah, but it's fine.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:00

Well, it's but is it hard to figure out irony when it comes to bumper stickers because you don't know the person, yeah, right? So it could be ironic.

SPEAKER_07 1:11:12

Yeah, there's something about it that it's like really kind of in your face. Yeah, it's like here's me, and you better just take it. Yeah, you know, like because I'm in my car and we can't have a dialogue about this.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:25

Yeah, like this is just me and you're gonna deal with it. Yeah. I think there's also an assumption there that people care. Right.

SPEAKER_07 1:11:31

Exactly I mean, that's really the question. So it's like what possesses you to think someone cares?

SPEAKER_03 1:11:37

You know, there's like, is it wise to and say maybe that's your platform? You don't have many platforms, but you have the back of your car?

SPEAKER_04 1:11:45

I don't I don't just get out of my dreams and get out of my bumper sticker.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:51

But no, another one I was saying that I saw was like somebody had a bumper sticker that said silly goose on board.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:00

Which is that wise?

SPEAKER_06 1:12:04

Silly little goose on the board.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:05

How wise is it to have a silly goose bumper sticker?

SPEAKER_07 1:12:10

It's like who's in there?

SPEAKER_01 1:12:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:12:14

It's not like it's like Steve from Blues Clues drives that car. Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:20

Like, what? I just I don't it it just struck me as yeah, maybe it's not a wisdom question, maybe it's not a wise mind question, it's just funny.

SPEAKER_07 1:12:29

Yeah, well, because there are there's so many kinds of bumper stickers.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:32

You know what I do get a chuckle out of for some reason, and this isn't this isn't new by any means, but I do, and I'm gonna be vulnerable here. I don't have any bumper stickers. That's choice, and I'm not judging anybody's choices. I just don't know who I am. That's just that's my authentic self. Yeah. Um I do you know how people will put like the 26.2 on their car? Oh my god. For like they've run a marathon, and then some people have like a hundred and something because they've done an ultra marathon.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:03

I do kind of chuckle when somebody has a 0.0 on their car.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:08

Yeah, it is funny because they're calling out everyone with the other. I just think that's funny. Yeah, that is funny. Maybe that's the wiser.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:22

Yeah, I just think that's like kind of like I'm using my bumper sticker to call you out.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:28

Yeah, and your bumper sticker. Yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_07 1:13:34

I do I think funny ones that are actually funny are good. Like that's a service to humanity, to people sitting in traffic, yeah. And then it's like, oh my god.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:45

And then I saw one driving the other day to work that said, honk if you're anxious, right? Or honk if you're nervous right now. And it was like, okay.

SPEAKER_07 1:13:53

Yeah, see, there's ones like that where you're like, Sure, is this I'm nervous sometimes.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:57

Yeah, I'll honk, I'll get behind that.

SPEAKER_07 1:13:59

But then it's like the is the meta text like then everyone's gonna be honking and everyone's gonna be more nervous, and it's like sure.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:06

I mean, I didn't honk, but I was like, Yeah, I can get behind that one, I guess. Yeah, somebody had one, uh no, but somebody had one that said which this is uh a quote. It didn't have it in quotes and it didn't um have where it came from, but it's a it just said calmer than you are, dude. Which is from the big Lebowski, calmer than you are, which is funny because that person maybe that person is calmer than me right now as a driver, you know. It's just funny in in because it brings up driving can be so anxiety provoking for people that it's just funny like calmer than you are.

SPEAKER_07 1:14:38

Yeah. Um that's the other thing, like, how safe is it to be reading someone's car on the road?

SPEAKER_03 1:14:44

Yeah, and I think safety is a real something to consider depending on what you're putting on your bumper sticker as well.

SPEAKER_07 1:14:50

Yeah. Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:52

Some people are gonna ram you with certain bumper stickers. Like if you put baby on board, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:15:00

Oh, okay. Maybe that's probably the most popular one that exists. Yeah. So is what do we think about baby on board?

SPEAKER_03 1:15:06

So I've heard different things about that. I heard that somebody you might get rammed.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:15

I don't know if this is true or not, but and maybe this is everybody this is common knowledge, but um people have those so that if there was ever a huge accident, so that the people who are coming to rescue you, or if there's like a jaws of life incident, so that they don't miss a small baby in the car.

SPEAKER_07 1:15:35

Wow, I've never heard that.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:38

Yeah, that was what somebody told me once.

SPEAKER_07 1:15:40

Yeah, well, if it's functional in that way.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:43

Yeah, I always thought it was just I just went to a place of thinking it was like they're announcing that they have a child.

SPEAKER_07 1:15:48

Totally. I mean, so that was like be careful around me. It's like we should be careful around everyone, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:15:53

So that was that's where my mind always went with it. I was like, Oh, you're announcing you have a child.

Perfectionism, Control, And Comparison

SPEAKER_07 1:15:58

Yeah, but well, it's also like the most dangerous drivers on the road are often like angry people. Like, what are those people gonna think about? Baby on board, baby, baby.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:08

You're gonna be like, go fuck yourself. Maybe bumper stickers aren't that wise. I don't know.

SPEAKER_07 1:16:13

Maybe that's good for you.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:15

How wise is it? Not so much.

SPEAKER_07 1:16:17

I think it's just like that like needing to advertise something. It's just I don't think that's the move.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:26

That's not the move.

SPEAKER_07 1:16:27

It's not the platform, but also I can accept someone. How about that? I can accept someone who does it and I won't resist them. Yeah. But I will maybe have thoughts, like there's probably a better way.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:38

It's like where do you even like buy a bumper sticker? Good question. Amazon? Yeah. Well, for sure, Amazon, but it's like you don't just like see them in a store. Like maybe you gotta go to like an auto store or maybe it's like a AutoPart store.

SPEAKER_07 1:16:52

You go to like a gas station on a road trip.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:54

I think they oh yeah, there you go.

SPEAKER_07 1:16:56

Something like that. You know, where you spin and they have like Amy, Sarah, like places that have like you know, like all these different names and stuff.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:06

Right. It's just like who's making these? Is it like one company that has a monopoly? It's like one little old lady, and people just submit it and they just print them out. Yeah, yeah. And they're running the world. But the silly goose one was great.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:22

Silly. Get on board. Get on board with your silly goose.

SPEAKER_07 1:17:27

Get on board, yeah. It's like some like suburban dad. Yeah, I mean the adjacent dad.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:36

I know.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:37

Who's the silly goose?

SPEAKER_03 1:17:39

Yeah I'm so curious. Is it the parent? Is it the driver? Is it the child? Is it a goose? Does the child is it a goose? Is it a golden goose? Is does the does the child know? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:51

What what what child at what age is the child gonna look at that property and really question? Am I a silly goose?

SPEAKER_01 1:17:59

Am I?

SPEAKER_00 1:18:00

Are you always been fire?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:03

Have I always been? Why didn't you tell me soon? I'm adopted. Why didn't you tell me sooner? Why did I have to read it on the back of our car?

SPEAKER_07 1:18:12

It's so good. Anyway, now I almost think they're wise. If your Barbie Sticker says I'm a silly goose, silly goose on board.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:20

Manner wise.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:22

I mean, it's uh we're talking about it this much. Conversation. We're talking about it this much that it worked.

SPEAKER_07 1:18:28

Yeah. So, John, where can people find you?

SPEAKER_03 1:18:36

Uh, nowhere really, but they can email me um as always. Last name, butts, but jonathan at gmail.com. Keep the questions coming.

unknown 1:18:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:18:49

What about you? Totally. kkpsychotherapy.com. If you have questions where you want to work with me and see if that's possible, anything like that, you can shoot me an inquiry over there.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:01

I'd like to plug John Butts. I think it's great that he's been joining us. Uh appreciate it. It's just been a lot of fun. It's been great. Yeah, it's so fun. Um, and uh you can reach me at joshbearerfilms.com, the website, and that's my website. Blanketforts.

SPEAKER_07 1:19:18

And blanketforts for the music and Jake Butts for Smirch Artwork Stickers Bumper stickers, bumper stickers.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:27

Maybe silly geese, silly geese.

SPEAKER_07 1:19:31

Silly goose bumper stickers. I love it. If you like the podcast and you feel inspired to write a review, I think reviews really help us out in terms of listenership and eventually possibly one day even having more episodes for you to enjoy. So yeah, write us a review.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:49

Be honest. Maybe even a five star review. Sure. Sure. Five, four, three, two, one. Yeah. Be honest. Be honest. You love us.

SPEAKER_07 1:20:03

The wise mind happy hour podcast is for entertainment purposes only, not to be treated as medical advice. If you are struggling with your mental health, please seek medical attention or counseling.