the wisdom of the NON-JUDGMENTAL STANCE

We all make judgments every day: this song is great, this show is bad, this year is going to SUCK, etc. But what if we tried harder to be more precise with our language, and more specific with our characterizations of the world around us? (e.g. - this song makes me want to dance, this show makes me want to die, this year makes me want to DIE.) It's worth a try...might blow your mind.

- music by blanket forts -

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:04

All right, well, welcome to the Wisemind Happy Hour. We're back. I'm John.

SPEAKER_03 0:08

I'm Kelly. Yes, we're back.

SPEAKER_02 0:10

It's been a couple weeks.

SPEAKER_03 0:11

Yeah, the holidays. Yeah. Happy New Year.

SPEAKER_02 0:15

Happy New Year. We gotta get back to the grind.

SPEAKER_03 0:17

Yeah, back to it. I missed the pod.

SPEAKER_02 0:20

I missed the pod. It feels like it was longer than two weeks.

SPEAKER_03 0:23

I know. It really does.

SPEAKER_02 0:24

Maybe it was longer than two weeks, technically. I don't know. I'm looking at our producer as if he has a calendar in front of the house. It was two. When was the Hanukkah party? That was Friday. The 19th. The 19th. But we didn't record that night.

SPEAKER_03 0:38

No, we just saw each other.

SPEAKER_02 0:39

No, we saw each other. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:41

But that gave me that flavor. It did give it the flavor. So it was like the 16th was our most recent. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_03 0:47

That's a while. It's been a while. It's been 17 weeks. Crazy.

SPEAKER_02 0:53

Well, this is our last episode, so no.

SPEAKER_04 0:57

Well, tell us what you did.

SPEAKER_02 0:59

Well, I went to a Hanukkah party here. That was the very first thing. The last day of school for my kids. Oh, yeah. And we get to come home and get ready to come here. And the party was a blast. We had a blast.

SPEAKER_03 1:10

I had so much fun.

SPEAKER_02 1:11

Did you have fun? I had fun. I mean, not to mention both of my kids, you know, they want to be equal opportunity, so they both spilled at your place, which was great. One on the floor. That was one on the table.

SPEAKER_03 1:23

Yeah. It was so interesting because genuinely, and I think I can speak for both of us. If people spill, it does not bother me. Like it does not spill gallons. And exactly. I spill all the time. I'm like messy. I've and your kids were so embarrassed. Yeah. And I was like, oh, it's really okay. And I felt so bad. And my mom was kind of explaining to me, she's like, when you bring your kids somewhere and they spill, it's like you just feel embarrassed. Yeah. And I was like, it didn't bother me at all.

SPEAKER_02 1:52

I think it doesn't bother most people who aren't the ones spilling.

SPEAKER_03 1:57

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:58

But I think it's a sign of like I'm in a place. I feel bad about it. I do know that on the way home, Wes was like, uh, it was right in front of me. I can't believe I spilled it. Because we were playing, we were playing the game at that point, whatever game we were playing. It might have been the game actually. And he was like, I don't know what happened. Like my drink was right in front of me. And I just kind of like moved too quick and I spilled it.

SPEAKER_03 2:21

Yeah. That's how it happens, though. It's like you're kind of you're in the moment and you make a sudden movement. And I know.

SPEAKER_02 2:27

But it was that was a great time. We had a blast, great food, games. We did some more games, which is what we talked about. Yeah. On the pod, not spending money. Not spending money, games, which was great. And you guys got us lovely gifts, ornaments on the tree. Yeah. Pac-Man.

SPEAKER_03 2:43

And you guys got us ornaments.

SPEAKER_02 2:45

I know. Your tree looks so nice.

SPEAKER_03 2:46

And it was so nice.

SPEAKER_02 2:47

You have a few more ornaments on there.

SPEAKER_03 2:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:49

Which is good. It's getting filled up.

SPEAKER_03 2:51

Did we get other ornaments? No.

SPEAKER_02 2:53

It looks like that Santa one.

SPEAKER_01 2:54

That Santa one. Was that up there? I've maybe like fluffed it a little since last time. I was gonna say, I don't remember it being up there. Yeah. I've gotten him seen. I like it. I've exposed Santa.

SPEAKER_03 3:05

Well, yeah, that was really so fun.

Family Travel To Portland And Kid Cousin Dynamics

SPEAKER_02 3:07

No, that was great. Um, so yeah, and then we uh my boys were with my parents for a while in Milwaukee. Uh, and then we went up there, and then we went to Portland to visit Sarah's sister, which was great. It was awesome. I mean, the kids together, my two nieces are the exact same age as Wes and Shane. So I love that. They just like click immediately, like right away. They're like into each other. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:30

And are they buddy with the one that's there?

Swimply Pools, Food Trucks, And Celiac Wins

SPEAKER_02 3:33

I think they're buddy with all like it's a group, every yeah. It's like a group. I mean, the older ones will there's like moments where the older ones will be doing things and then the younger ones will be doing things, and I think that happens like organically, like we can really like kind of force that. It just kind of happens, which makes sense. But it was great. Like the day we got there, uh, this is a thing out in Portland, it's not so much here. People will almost like an Airbnb, they will rent out their pool if it's indoor for you to use for like two hours. So they reserved this. The homeowner, it's like an indoor pool that's attached to their home.

SPEAKER_00 4:11

So cool.

SPEAKER_02 4:11

They were there, they let us in, and he was like, Here you go, here's like everything. It had a full like changing room, like it had the laundry there. The house didn't look like that, but you could tell. And I was asking my sister-in-law this, I was like, You could tell like the structure that they built onto their house. Yeah, I was like, Is this like their business? And she's like, Oh, yeah, this is like the investment they're making. They're building this onto their house.

SPEAKER_03 4:34

Got it.

SPEAKER_02 4:34

And so kids have birthday parties there. Wow, it had a hot tub in it, like it was heated pool. It was awesome. So that was like the first day. So it was like you have this pool to yourself indoors, it was like amazing. That's really cool. So that was I forget what it's called. It's like swimly or swim something.

SPEAKER_03 4:51

Oh, yes, I've heard of this. Maybe. But yes, we we actually we watched this sitcom called English Teacher, where Oh, I saw the first episode of that. Yeah, it's good. It has two seasons. I think the third didn't get renewed, but the one of the teachers, her partner, loses his job and he's building a pool so he can like Airbnb. And he says Swimley.

SPEAKER_02 5:12

Swimly. That's where I've heard it.

SPEAKER_03 5:13

Yeah, and then he turns it into a pickleball thing.

SPEAKER_02 5:15

So I think people are like making it into that they invest, you know, a lot of money in it and then hopefully make profit out of it. Yeah. Which I mean, I would have a kid's birthday party the way this was set up. It was great. The guy was like, here's the Wi-Fi, here's the Bluetooth. We were playing music the whole time. It was great.

SPEAKER_03 5:32

And it's probably way less than renting out like a public space.

SPEAKER_02 5:35

Yeah, absolutely. And it's just it's private. So you can just the dryer there. We threw all the kids' stuff in the dryer in the last like 15 minutes. It was like cool.

SPEAKER_03 5:44

Amazing. Is it one of those dryers where it like just squeezes your swimsuit? It's not like that.

SPEAKER_02 5:48

Okay, it's like a it's like you would see in anybody's home. Like a dryer driver game.

SPEAKER_03 5:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 5:53

Um, but anyway, yes, we did that. We went into a Blazers game, so we went to an NBA game, which was great. Oh uh, they ended up winning the Portland Trailways.

SPEAKER_03 6:02

Oh, oh, when you said Blazers, I was like, is that a new team? Trailblazers. The Trailways. Of course, of course.

SPEAKER_02 6:07

Yeah. And then uh yeah, we kind of hung out and every night we played games. It was fun.

SPEAKER_03 6:13

Nice. And what was the weather like?

SPEAKER_02 6:15

It was cold, but not here cold. It's probably like today.

SPEAKER_03 6:19

Yeah. Where it's like damp. Oh god, that's kind of nice.

SPEAKER_02 6:22

It's pretty like damp all the time. Yeah, but you can go places, you can absolutely go places and where you don't have to bring your parka when you go out there. Totally. And it just smells better out there. I don't know. Oh, it's that Pacific Northwest. It's just you get off the plane, you're totally it just smells so great.

SPEAKER_03 6:38

You know, it's like every time I'm I'm in the Northwest, or even just the West Coast of California, I'm like, man, it's like they are living differently.

SPEAKER_02 6:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:51

Like life just has a different like cadence to it. One of my college roommates is from Tacoma, Washington. And I visited her parents with her and our other roommate, Allison. Shout out to Meredith and Allison. And I remember like them driving us back from the airport, like looking at their drive home from the airport. Yeah, it was like pictures like cascading mountains, and just like the air was so clear. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:16

I was and they like let things like grow there. It's like overgrown. Like, not every yard is manicured, and it's just there's so much green.

SPEAKER_03 7:24

It's like, yeah, it's like so it's not like cookie cutter. Right. Yes. Yeah, and everyone, it's like people there too. Like, maybe this is I'm going too far, but I feel like people are like more confident. Like, there's something like I do what I want, like you're saying with your yard.

SPEAKER_02 7:40

Like, I like it like this, so I do it, you know, or like yeah, definitely there's not, I don't think there's the we're gonna talk about it, but there's maybe not the judgment of like, oh, well, that's weird. They're stepping outside the box. It's like everybody's outside the box, everybody's outside the box or in their own little way. Yeah, which I guess that's the whole I don't know, what do you say, ethos of key Portland weird or keep those places weird?

SPEAKER_03 8:02

But keep Portland weird. Did keep Portland weird start that? Because I know people say keep Austin weird. I don't know what started. I don't know which one started it. Do you know? But I like the vibe of it. Can you carbonate that saying for us?

SPEAKER_01 8:13

Yeah, Austin.

SPEAKER_03 8:15

Yeah, maybe I could.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

What are you doing over there? No, I'm just guessing around.

SPEAKER_03 8:20

He's like carrying the one.

SPEAKER_02 8:21

But I I think it gives you, even if you don't necessarily buy into that, I think it gives people more of a license, not that you need permission, to just kind of do whatever you want to do.

SPEAKER_03 8:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:31

And the other thing that was amazing about it was having a few more experiences of traveling with celiac. And so it's kind of like because that's always kind of like uh way better out there. I don't want to be the like annoying person. Not only do I feel like it wasn't that big of an issue, everywhere we went, if there wasn't something at the place we were, there was a like a food truck somewhere around, and I could find something to eat, which was just so nice. It was I you can't do that here.

SPEAKER_03 9:02

I mean, it's I understand it's like Chicago has good fine dining. Yeah, but it's like the medium quality food here sucks.

SPEAKER_02 9:12

And the food trucks are great. Yeah, every food truck we went to was great. Yeah, we just walked down the street to a bar cafe, and you just walk out the back, and there's all these food trucks just like attached to it. It's optional, I could find yeah, and I could find something that was gluten-free, and everybody was like asking me, what about cross-contamination? Like, people were just more on it, on it with it. Yeah, and it was just, oh, I was like, this is great. Like maybe I just need to only go to Portland for trip.

SPEAKER_03 9:39

But I do feel like California feels like that too, where it's like the I should say like the medium quality food is way healthier and tastier, and like they are on it with like allergies, identities, like they're just on it.

SPEAKER_02 9:55

And yeah, and it was all tasty.

SPEAKER_03 9:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:57

So that was that. And then we got back, didn't really do much for New Year's. I I worked New Year's Eve, but then when I got home, we had an impromptu play date with one of Shane's friends, and she was like, You gotta watch the Jonas Brothers Christmas movie. And we were like, Do you want to watch it now? And so we all ended up watching that New Year's Eve. It's not that bad.

SPEAKER_00 10:16

Wow, not that bad. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 10:19

I have a newfound respect, or I guess respect for because I didn't really care, but the Jonas Brothers. They're pretty funny, they're able to laugh at themselves. They have fun of Star Power.

SPEAKER_03 10:29

Yeah, I get it. I mean, I like Nick Jonas the most, and he had a great solo career.

SPEAKER_02 10:34

He's the main one, right?

SPEAKER_03 10:35

Yeah, pretty much.

SPEAKER_02 10:37

The other two were really hilarious in it, and they were able to kind of roll with the punches, all of them, how Nick's controlling and makes all the decisions. And the other one's like, I'm gonna start making decisions. And he comes out, he's like talking to himself in the bathroom, he comes out and he just kind of catches Nick yelling at somebody on the phone. He's like, Never mind. And then the other one, like, whenever they show him singing, nothing comes out of his mouth because he's always like, You never let me sing. It's just like funny, they make fun of themselves. And I didn't know anything about them, but it's like they were playing these whatever their like stereotype has been. Yeah, it was funny.

SPEAKER_03 11:11

Oh, I like it.

SPEAKER_02 11:12

New Year's Eve, Jonas Brothers. So anyway, I'm rambling.

SPEAKER_03 11:14

That's a great New Year's Eve.

SPEAKER_02 11:16

It's uh a great break.

SPEAKER_03 11:18

I love it.

SPEAKER_02 11:18

What did you all do? Both families?

SPEAKER_03 11:21

Um, yeah, we saw both families, um, Christmas with my family, and then uh second half the day at Christmas. We drove up to Michigan. Uh we did see both families, but it was still like pretty quiet.

SPEAKER_01 11:32

Yeah, yeah, it didn't do much.

SPEAKER_03 11:34

We did a lot of like cozy kind of hanging out.

SPEAKER_01 11:37

Watched Bad Grandpa.

SPEAKER_00 11:39

Yeah, we watched a jackass movie.

SPEAKER_02 11:41

Bad Grandpa, yeah. Have you seen it? No, but I remember that. Some kind of jackass. It's interesting. Yeah, it's Knoxville, right? It's Knoxville. Johnny Knoxville, yep. Who is hosting Fear Factor now?

SPEAKER_00 11:53

Really?

SPEAKER_02 11:55

There's all these advertisements for a new Fear Factor, and he's hosting it.

SPEAKER_03 12:00

Fear Factor was the like first thing to lift up Joe Rogan.

SPEAKER_02 12:03

Right. Well, news radio, I thought. I mean, that's where you gotta say.

SPEAKER_03 12:06

But I don't think he was like really like shiny.

SPEAKER_02 12:09

I see.

SPEAKER_03 12:09

Right?

SPEAKER_02 12:10

Yeah, you're right. I think that show is gross, it's like gross factor. I don't know if it's really fear factor.

SPEAKER_03 12:15

Literally, it's gross factor.

SPEAKER_02 12:16

It's disgusting.

SPEAKER_03 12:17

Did you ever see the Chappelle show? Um, I know Dave Chappelle's problematic now, but did you ever see the Chappelle show where they like made fun of it? It was pretty good.

SPEAKER_02 12:25

Probably.

SPEAKER_03 12:26

It was I don't remember it. There was like a big container with a bunch of bugs, and he was like, I don't know if I can eat all those, Joe. And it was like he meant for him to like be in there. Be in there. That's funny. It was great.

SPEAKER_02 12:35

I mean, that show, yeah, Fear Factor's Gross. But yeah, super. But bad grandpa, I don't I remember it. I didn't see it.

SPEAKER_03 12:41

It was okay. It was it's kind of the same like dick joke over and over.

SPEAKER_02 12:46

Grandpa.

SPEAKER_03 12:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:48

Watch that.

SPEAKER_03 12:48

Your kids might think it's funny, but it might also be a little it's probably inappropriate.

SPEAKER_02 12:52

I mean, I can't, right?

SPEAKER_03 12:54

If you're a bad dad, your kids can watch it.

SPEAKER_02 12:57

I mean, bad grandpa.

SPEAKER_03 12:59

Yeah. So yeah, we did that.

SPEAKER_02 13:01

I love the cozy, the movie watching.

Winter Gear, Heated Gloves, And Travel Mishaps

SPEAKER_03 13:03

Yeah, we did a lot of that. Um, we had a cozy new year. We we did actually walk to dinner. You're great. It was like 15 degrees. Good for you all. So we bundled up. Josh got me gloves that heat up. So that was great. We went to a place called Bar Roma over there. It's like a local haunt, and it was good. It was fun. Wait, how do they heat up? So that's the technology. Over there, plugged in is the battery pack that are charging. Oh. And then the battery slides into each like wrist part. Oh, okay, yeah. And then you there's a hook in there, like another hook, and you plug them both in, and then I literally press a button like I'm Iron Man, like activating. Can you do different levels? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:44

Wow. Were your hands sweating?

SPEAKER_03 13:46

No, I mean my hands get freezing out.

SPEAKER_02 13:49

Outside, but they were like really nice. Totally.

SPEAKER_03 13:52

I I not only did it like seem like it when they ran out of battery because I forgot to turn them off while we were having brunch one day, when we walked back, my hands were freezing. Is it a mitten or a finger? It has fingers. It's a little loose on me.

SPEAKER_02 14:08

Um that's okay.

SPEAKER_03 14:11

Well, I'll I will say, like, my one the difficult thing is you kind of need to put them on before you have your coat on.

unknown 14:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:16

Because it's like it needs to slip under the coat. But then it's like, if I put my gloves on and my coat on, it's like it's hard to zip my coat with the gloves. It's hard to get my boots on with my good thing you have a husband.

SPEAKER_04 14:26

I know Josh basically needs to just like stress me.

SPEAKER_02 14:29

You don't have to do anything. I remember as a kid having mittens where you would put the it had a zipper on the back and you'd put the little heat, the things that you shake up, little heat uh pouches, too. I used to have that when I was a kid.

SPEAKER_03 14:43

I stick those in my shoes. And now I'm setting my sights on socks that heat up.

SPEAKER_02 14:48

Wouldn't that be a big socks that heat up?

SPEAKER_03 14:50

Now, would that be like a fire hazard?

SPEAKER_02 14:52

Why would why don't you just get a bodysuit that heats up? You don't need just individual items. It's like why don't you just never leave the house? Just yeah, get a whole suit.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

I know. I really love to be walking.

SPEAKER_02 15:06

Josh is looking it up, he's writing it down.

SPEAKER_01 15:07

Valentine's is coming up.

SPEAKER_03 15:08

Well, because they they even have like a vest that heats up.

SPEAKER_01 15:11

I'm sure they have everything that's coming up.

SPEAKER_03 15:14

Because they know that somebody like you will buy it. Yeah. And I want to bring them to New York because we're born in New York in a couple weeks. Oh, fun. And you know it's like New York in the winter. You're freezing.

SPEAKER_02 15:23

I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 15:24

I've never been, but you know, oh, that's right. That's right. I have made the mistake of I went one December that was unseasonably warm to visit my friend Leah. Shout out to Leah. And I was like, oh my God, Christmas in New York is so fun. I'm gonna do it again the following year. It was a normal year and it was freezing freezing. And I was like, You can't come to New York in the cold because you walk everywhere. So anyway, I'm I was like, I want to bring them. But then I had this thought where I was like, you know, when they asked you, like, any lithium batteries in your suitcase? Like, are those lithium batteries?

SPEAKER_02 15:56

Could be.

SPEAKER_03 15:57

What's a lithium battery? It's not like a Duracell.

SPEAKER_02 16:02

Not sure.

SPEAKER_03 16:03

I know. I I'm gonna have to Google that.

SPEAKER_02 16:05

We have to look that up.

SPEAKER_03 16:06

And then I was like, I'm sure you can bring lithium batteries, but it probably either has to be in your carry-on or your check. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:12

Which probably has to be in your that just made me think it, you know, it was uh kind of a game changer when I went to Portland. My brother and sister-in-law have their heated blankets just at the ready on their couch. So nice. You just turn them on, you get home, you turn and they're just right, they're just going all day. It's just nice.

SPEAKER_03 16:31

It's funny, it's like at home.

SPEAKER_02 16:35

You're warm.

SPEAKER_03 16:36

Well, I like go hot and cold, but then outside I want the heat all the time. Yeah. I'm the worst. It's like, you know, like I'm not the worst, but like it's like I'm I am terrible. Period. But it's really like I feel like I'll be cold, hot, cold, hot. I'm just like uh Goldilocks kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02 16:58

You know, what I just thought of, you know, when we were just talking about lithium batteries.

SPEAKER_03 17:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:03

I don't know what a lithium battery is, but you know what will get you stopped at an airport, which Sarah just had this experience going through security. She was like, a woman in front of me had white powder. I'm like, that's gonna get you stopped. Oh dear. So Sarah was like, so there was like this whole production. I was like, what is this person? But yeah, what was the powder? Sarah's like, I don't know, but I mean, was it held up like cocaine? Who knows? Yeah, but it's like if you that's like a number one, don't bring on a flight, a powder of any kind.

SPEAKER_03 17:34

I mean, literally.

SPEAKER_02 17:35

Sarah's like, what is this person doing? So it like took her forever to get through security. But anyway, so lithium batteries and white powder if you want to get stopped.

SPEAKER_03 17:43

I know. I'm gonna have like a little baggie of white powder with my lithium battery. White powder. I mean, I was listening to a podcast where the two guys are like, I mean, these guys party whatever. One guy had a little like tiny bag in his pocket that he realized he goes, I took like six flights with that thing in my pocket and nobody found me.

SPEAKER_02 18:01

Then nothing happened.

SPEAKER_03 18:02

Nothing happened. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:04

I was like, Well, I maybe, yeah, maybe it's just way more common and this woman just got caught.

SPEAKER_03 18:08

But yeah, crazy. Isn't it wild? That is wild. I mean, I I know nothing about like because there are people out there where they're like Were you about to say you know nothing about smuggling drugs or something? Well, yeah, but I know nothing even about someone being like, oh, I want to bring about Mexico stuff. But when they do it, no, but it's like because there are people out there who'd argue they're like, they're looking for like weapons, they're not looking for drugs, like some recreational marijuana or whatever. And I'm like, I feel like they're looking for both. I don't know what they're looking for.

SPEAKER_02 18:40

I don't know what they're looking for either. And I don't know some usually I get stopped a lot, but knock on wood, I haven't been recently. Yeah, the last time I was stopped, it was because of Shane, I think.

SPEAKER_03 18:50

So yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_02 18:51

His iPadships. Yeah, they're like, whoa, and then they like tossed out one of his fidgets because it was like a gel type substance inside the fidget. I'm like, nope, sorry, bud.

SPEAKER_03 19:01

Oh once they took my makeup wipes and the guy like almost like tauntingly just like in the trash right in front of me, and I was kind of like, those were a little bit expensive, really, and I was sort of like, why can't I bring those? And he like couldn't give me an explanation.

SPEAKER_02 19:14

I got through security so quick on this trip that I left my backpack. Like, I had had the boys, had the carry-ons. I was like, we're getting to the fucking gates. I was like, we're getting food. I was like, this is great, we're getting food. We had so much time to get food. You're entire like our like I don't know how it must have been five minutes walking, and then I'm like, Sarah, I don't have my backpack. I'm like, I gotta go back. So of course I go back, and the guy, the security guy, is just standing there and he sees me walking, and he must have been like, This is the fucking bonehead.

SPEAKER_00 19:50

You left here, right?

SPEAKER_02 19:51

So I was like, I left my backpack. He didn't even question it. I was like, I left my backpack here, he just grabbed it and gave it to me. I was like, What an idiot. I'd never done that before. I got through security service. Quick that I was like, all right, boys, get your luggage. We're getting like we're getting there.

SPEAKER_03 20:05

Honestly, I envy the level of like calm you were feeling because I'm constantly anxious at the airport. Like, what's my shit? Like touching my bag and making sure everything zips.

SPEAKER_02 20:14

We were wheeling away, like just walking down the tunnel towards the gate, and all of a sudden I'm just like, Sarah, I gotta go back. I forgot my backpack. So she was like, Okay, I'll take the kids to the gate. Hightail it back there. But I mean, certainly on my walk there, I was like, what if it's not there? But it had been such a short amount of time. Threw you off. And I but I was still like, it'll be fine. But yeah, it was funny.

SPEAKER_03 20:37

Oh my god. No, I'll leave my purse just about anywhere. Sure. And my phone. But yeah. But that's the thing.

SPEAKER_02 20:44

I had my wallet on me because I had to have my ID to pull it out. I had my phone on me.

SPEAKER_03 20:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:49

So the backpack was just kind of snacks and toiletries.

SPEAKER_04 20:53

Yeah. Don't need any of this. My all edge.

SPEAKER_02 20:55

Yeah. Who cares?

SPEAKER_04 20:57

It's the airport.

SPEAKER_02 20:58

I don't need that stuff.

SPEAKER_04 20:59

Oh my God.

SPEAKER_02 21:00

Leave it. Somebody would be lucky to get my Keel's facial.

SPEAKER_04 21:05

I feel like we're getting fuel.

SPEAKER_03 21:07

What are we talking about?

SPEAKER_04 21:08

Oh, oh, okay.

Book Wave: Heart The Lover, Holds, And Recommendations

SPEAKER_03 21:09

Two things I wanted to bring up that I think are relevant to the pod that are outside of our main topic for today. So I read a book that I loved over the break, um, called Heart the Lover. Did I mention this on another pod?

SPEAKER_01 21:23

Heart the Lover? It's hard to say because we've been talking about it.

SPEAKER_03 21:26

I've been talking about this book so much. And this is a book I exchanged, I gave to my um stepsister in our book exchange, and she read it in one day. She loved it so much. And it's just like one of those books that you're like, oh my God, I love reading. I love books. I love life. I love love. You know, it's like it's so like moving and sad, but also like uplifting and funny and like the wittiest, funniest dialogue.

SPEAKER_02 21:53

Lily King? Yeah. Okay. I'm putting it all copies are in use at the library, but I'm reserving it right now.

SPEAKER_03 21:58

Do it. I I really loved it. And actually, I went back and read this author's earlier book that I had already read. I'm in the middle of rereading it, and it's the same character.

SPEAKER_02 22:09

There's 709 holds on this puppy. Yeah. So I'll read it in a couple of years.

SPEAKER_03 22:14

People, I shouldn't just give it to you. I'm gonna order it and Josh is gonna read it, so we'll lend it to you.

SPEAKER_02 22:19

Yeah, we'll see what comes first. If I get I'm 710.

SPEAKER_04 22:22

So yeah, I think that I'm gonna be able to do it.

SPEAKER_02 22:25

It must be really popular. There are a lot of books that have come out in 2020. This was 2025. Yeah, just came out that do not have that many holds on it. So this must be gaining a lot of traction and be really popular.

SPEAKER_03 22:37

That's really so good. We'll lend you. I I am going to get it because I really want Josh to read it so we can talk about it.

SPEAKER_02 22:42

Hurt the lover.

SPEAKER_00 22:43

But it's so good.

SPEAKER_03 22:45

And it's like, I think it's like changed.

SPEAKER_02 22:48

You haven't told me anything about this book.

SPEAKER_03 22:49

Well, okay, so the story, I don't I really don't know. You don't have to give us any spoilers. It's basically in three parts, and it's like it starts in college. This girl meets these two men and has a little bit of like she she has a romantic experience with each of them in very different ways. And it's not really a love triangle, really. That's not the core of it. But it's kind of like a slice of like three parts of this woman's life, and then these two men.

SPEAKER_02 23:19

And it's chronological. She's getting older as a block. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:22

It's like when she's in college, then when she's about 40, I think, with two boys, two kids. Two boys. And then um, when she's like 47, and maybe he's 47. That's yeah. And it's really like inspired me, even in thinking about like my work, like the substack I'm you know, in the process of starting, and like I'm gonna be doing a bit of writing for that. And I'm like, man, this like literature can be so like, I don't know if this would be considered literature, but it's fiction. But it's like it can be so inspiring in a way that sometimes like clinical stuff or like stuff that's more directly about like what we do isn't, you know. And actually, Nancy McWilliams, the author of that psychoanalytic psychotherapy, she says that she's like, you can get as much from like reading literature and books in terms of like inspiring you as a therapist as you can get from like clinical material, just like getting inside a character's head and like hearing about their inner world. And I feel that so much with the even brighter, yeah, in certain ways. Totally. And like there's so many stories that you feel like I've read a version of this story a hundred times, and I don't feel like that with this book. Sounds great. So it was so inspiring, and it's like I almost think like with the new year, I haven't like really I'm always setting goals and like manifestations, so I didn't like set any new ones, but I do feel like suddenly just this like switch happened where like I feel inspired in this like more like quiet, like simplistic way. And I think the reading is like doing it a bit.

SPEAKER_02 24:55

And it's good that there's that many holes because I'm behind the holidays, put me behind. So I got three books right now. Yeah, what are what are you well? The one that I'm reading, and then I just got a notification yesterday that I have two books ready at the library, which I was like, ugh, I gotta catch up. I'm reading um Demon Copperhead.

SPEAKER_03 25:12

Oh, wait, I've heard of that.

SPEAKER_02 25:14

Yeah. Um who is it?

SPEAKER_03 25:16

Who's the author?

SPEAKER_02 25:16

What is her name?

SPEAKER_03 25:17

Demon Copperhead. Barbara King saw her? Yes, yes. Oh, yes.

SPEAKER_02 25:21

So that was a book from I think 2022, maybe. So it's a couple years old, but I just started that.

SPEAKER_03 25:29

You read it? No. Okay.

Therapy Talk: Modality vs Alliance And Psychobabble

SPEAKER_02 25:30

Is it good? Um, I mean, I'm I'm barely into it. I like the way that it's started and the way that she's writing it from the perspective of, you know, like a child. Some of the things, the way it's written, the dialogue is like, yeah, that's exactly what a kid would say. Like it's you know, sometimes that's hard to capture. Um, where it's like, you don't feel like that. Well, this is an adult like doing a caricature of what a kid would say. And then um, the two that are ready that I haven't picked up is The Anomaly, which was a book somebody had mentioned. And this is from 2021. This is a, I think it's a French book. Apparently, the premise is these people are on a plane, there's like some sort of like turbulence or something happens, and they land, and what they realize is like normal time for them had passed, but time on the ground, it had been like 10 years, and they thought the plane went missing. And so they land and it's like 10 years later, or something like that. Oh, they made a CBS show, or something like that. I don't know. Yeah, it was called like flight plan or something, or it was called like oh, was it something and then Heartwood, which is amity gauge, but anyway, I'm on the And do those have long holds? Well, I'm I'm supposed to I'm supposed to pick it up right now. Oh, you're the one holding it. So I could cancel my hold, but see how many copies I put these books on hold, and then I don't remember when I put them on hold. Yeah, because it's like this one. I mean three years from now it's gonna say it's ready, and I'm gonna be like, what? Yeah, you're gonna be like, I know it, I want to read it. I just kind of forget sometimes what it's about.

SPEAKER_03 27:01

You're gonna have writ read it and written a thesis on it.

SPEAKER_02 27:04

And then yeah, I mean it's gonna be already a movie, yeah, and then I'm gonna read it.

SPEAKER_03 27:07

I hope they make it a movie.

SPEAKER_02 27:08

And then what I'm gonna be doing three years from now on the podcast is I'm gonna be like, Hilly, you know what book you need to read?

SPEAKER_03 27:13

Yeah. Heart the Lost. Yeah, I'll be like, I invented that wait a second, what?

SPEAKER_02 27:18

That sounds familiar. Oh, yeah, I read that like five years ago.

SPEAKER_03 27:21

I just have the thought, I hope they make it a movie, and then I had the instant thought later, I hope they don't make it a movie. Do you ever have that where it's like so many good books get turned into terrible movies?

SPEAKER_02 27:30

Yeah, they just get turned into just terrible movies. So like I'm number 45. I'm just looking at my list right now. I'm number 45 on a list of there's 46 copies in circulation at the library of that book. So you know, I'll probably get that one pretty quickly. Maybe they'll add some given how much I'm 159 on this book that won the Booker Prize Flesh. Um, I don't know that one. 159 on 122 copies. So, you know. Ooh, I'm number 710. Oh, yeah, that's right. Heart the lover on 135 copies. So it sounds I love a good book recommendation. I like when people seek me out to give me a book recommendation.

SPEAKER_03 28:14

I mean, I will give anyone this. I mean, I'm trying to think who I wouldn't give this. Like, neither of my brothers would read this, I don't think.

SPEAKER_02 28:20

Yeah, I don't like being the person who I want to have something in the hopper to give somebody. I don't like when somebody's like, Have you read any good books lately? And I'm like, Well, yeah, kind of. Yeah. Oh god, I panic sometimes when that's like And then I get my mind goes blank and I can't think of what I've read.

SPEAKER_03 28:36

Right.

SPEAKER_02 28:37

And then I'm like scrolling on my phone, I'm like, wait, I know I've read some good books.

SPEAKER_03 28:41

I was an English major and I like barely ever had book recommendations for people.

SPEAKER_02 28:44

But I felt that way a little bit with Sarah's sister because she reads a lot too, and she always asks me what I've been reading. And I think her and I like somewhat of the same kind of books. Um you should send her this one and authors. I am gonna send her this recommendation, but she asked me and I was kind of like, oh yeah. And then and then I was like, I I can't think of anything. You know, but she told me to read Demon Copperheads.

SPEAKER_03 29:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 29:07

So it's pretty thick.

SPEAKER_03 29:08

Yeah, maybe like when we had read My Year of Rust and Relaxation. Have you read any Otessa? Eileen.

SPEAKER_02 29:15

I the book is called Eileen.

SPEAKER_03 29:18

Yeah. I read that one and I got part way through You just looked at me weird when you said Eileen.

SPEAKER_02 29:22

I was like, Eileen who? Am I supposed to know this person? You're leaning too much. Eileen Book. She she's a really special writer. No one writes like her. How do you say her last name? Otessa.

SPEAKER_03 29:34

I think Moshfa. Might be Mosh Fag or Mashfa.

SPEAKER_01 29:39

Okay. I've heard both. Yeah, I don't know. She's my favorite writer. Putting him on hold, right? You know who is shouldn't, because then I'm gonna have all these books and I can't.

SPEAKER_03 29:47

I always look at Lena Dunham's recs for books.

SPEAKER_02 29:50

I always go through NPR's year in review of because they don't focus on any one category. So there are kids' books in there that I can pick up from the library for my kids. Um, so usually the year end, and it's a huge list of books of any interest. They have cooking like cookbooks, their best cookbooks of the year. So I really trust NPR's recommendation.

SPEAKER_03 30:13

Maybe I'll look into theirs once I'm finished with this.

SPEAKER_02 30:16

And I like the way that their website is formatted because it has a really nice, like it's just a stream of all of the book covers. Yeah, yeah. And you can just click on it and then it like takes you to the description of it, and then you can go back and you just write there all the book covers. It's great.

SPEAKER_03 30:30

You know what doesn't have that is like Google Books. It's like terrible. Click on the title and it takes you to like the publisher's like serial number. You're like, I I want to read the plot. Like, I want to know what it's about.

SPEAKER_02 30:41

And I have we ever done How Wise Is It to Judge? I mean, maybe we'll do it today a little bit with the judgment, but judge a book by its cover. I love a good book channel. I judge everything by its book. Yeah, I understand it's not specifically meaning just books. Please, everyone. I understand it's a little bit more nuanced than that. But with books, a catchy book cover will get me to look at it. And then sometimes the book isn't good. A hundred percent.

SPEAKER_03 31:05

I mean, this happens even with like coffee shops. I said to Josh, I was like, they know how to make a coffee shop look like bespoke and like artisan and whatever, and it's like probably some like fucking corporate entity behind this. And I buy into it.

SPEAKER_02 31:18

I buy into the book covers. I like it. And then some of them I hate, and they're probably really good books.

SPEAKER_03 31:23

I yeah, I think people should definitely like invest in a good cover, a good like for sure, just get someone to give that a look.

SPEAKER_02 31:30

Right. Or something so simplistic, like a Salinger book, and that just looks so sleek.

SPEAKER_03 31:36

I love those simple covers with the white and then the letter, the the like rainbow. So good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:44

Anyway, okay.

SPEAKER_03 31:46

That'll be for our books. Yeah, when we write.

SPEAKER_02 31:48

When we write how to make a podcast for dummies. Sure, that's not out there. And I, you know what? When we write that book, let's make it big and yellow podcast for dummies.

SPEAKER_03 31:58

Wait, speaking of, okay, actually, this isn't about podcasts for dummies, but now that I'm a therapist who posts about therapy topics online, I'll get a lot in my feed. And I saw this therapist post, and he's like, Okay, gonna say something pretty controversial. Actually, to me, it wasn't that controversial. I don't think it'll be controversial to you, but he said it doesn't really matter what modality your therapist uses. And then he used that argument of the number one predictor of success in therapy is the relationship with your therapist. Sure. Which is true.

SPEAKER_02 32:32

The rapport.

SPEAKER_03 32:33

The rapport. The rapport. Yeah. The rapport, the report they give at the end of each session. But yeah, like it, you know what's funny? It is the number one predictor of success in therapy, but it almost to me is like the baseline like prerequisite.

SPEAKER_02 32:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:48

I think there can be therapists who have well, actually, now I'm backing. Because can you have a really good relationship with your therapist if you don't feel like they're helping you? Probably not.

SPEAKER_02 32:58

I guess you could. Can you have a really good relationship with your therapist and feel like they're not helping?

SPEAKER_03 33:04

Feel like they're just kind of like letting you vent.

SPEAKER_02 33:05

Yeah, I think a lot of people do that in therapy.

SPEAKER_03 33:07

Yeah. No, I know a lot of people do it in therapy, but do you think that person deeply in their bones thinks that's a good relationship to the therapist or the client?

SPEAKER_02 33:16

I think it depends. Depends. I think some people, that's the space they need in their life. Totally. And they don't have that space.

SPEAKER_03 33:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:23

So even if it's not like groundbreaking, quote unquote, like work they're doing, therapeutic work, there might be some use for totally. Oh, I think there's somebody that's not gonna judge them, which we're gonna talk about talk about today. I don't think it's as simple as I I think absolutely alliance and rapport and all that is a strong predictor for sure. I do think sometimes it absolutely matters what modality you're using with people. So I don't think it's a hot take. I don't disagree with that.

SPEAKER_03 33:51

Yeah, I didn't think it was that.

SPEAKER_02 33:52

And I don't think it's that controversial. I think it does at a certain point matter what what techniques you're using.

SPEAKER_04 33:59

It's like that's trauma, EMDR.

SPEAKER_02 34:01

I'm not, I you know, I'm gonna refer them to you. Right. There's a therapist, there's actually a book that came out called Psychobabble. Oh yes, I've heard that. Have you heard of that book? Yeah. So it kind of talks about just the overuse, specifically with things like TikTok and social media and Instagram, of these words that people don't really have an understanding of, and also how it understanding kind of things like gaslighting or you know, all these terms that just get thrown around so much that have clinical relevance and use. Um, so that that sounded like an interesting thing as well. Yeah. To read about that, but I would read that actually. Psycho Babel.

SPEAKER_00 34:39

Yeah, I just like trying to join your book club. I like to tap at the window outside. I have the book. Let me where are you guys?

SPEAKER_02 34:49

I I'm doing the work. I'm doing come in. There are no seats available.

SPEAKER_04 34:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:55

Um, okay. Should we move into our main topic of the day? Our main topic today is the non-judgmental stance.

SPEAKER_02 35:04

The non-judgmental stance.

SPEAKER_03 35:05

So let's start with just the term.

SPEAKER_02 35:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:09

What does it mean to you?

SPEAKER_02 35:10

Well, the thing I think of is objectivity.

SPEAKER_03 35:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:13

So being more objective, fact-based, um, and decreasing the use of, you know, judgmental words, things like good and bad. And and we're all gonna judge, and judgments certainly can serve a purpose if we're making quick decisions about things that might be dangerous or quote unquote bad. Um but they don't always necessarily serve us.

SPEAKER_03 35:35

I was thinking about this earlier today, and the first time this like really came into my consciousness as a therapist was when I worked at a place before where we worked together. Like speaking non-judgmentally was almost like a religious like practice at this hard organization. And even in like all staff meetings, if when talking about something you use a judgment, they would like ring a bell and you had to like rework what you were saying in non-judgmental language. And I told that to people, and they're like, that's ridiculous. And I'm like, honestly, it was a it's a practice that has never left me. It's super helpful. Like, how do you talk about things without giving it almost like a moral judgment, a value judgment? Like to not call it good or bad, to not call it right or wrong.

SPEAKER_02 36:23

I think any clinical consultation that should be a foundational, like a tenant or something that we're gonna hold, right? We're not using judgment here when we're conceptualizing this case or the difficulties with this case. So totally I think it's super helpful.

SPEAKER_03 36:41

I mean, I it was like life-changing for me. And it was hard, and I would get so nervous saying anything because you use judgments like so casually and unconsciously. Yeah, or I did at the time. It's like even if you were like casually being like, Oh, this is so something so fucked up.

SPEAKER_02 37:00

Like you could say, like So they would ring the bell and say, You just said fucked up.

SPEAKER_03 37:04

Well, they'd be like, by fucked up, is that a judgment?

SPEAKER_02 37:06

Right, is that a judgment?

SPEAKER_03 37:07

I couldn't even be talking about like oh the government's fucked up or whatever. And it's like, well, what are you saying?

SPEAKER_02 37:12

What are you saying?

SPEAKER_03 37:13

And it gets you to be more like aware of what you mean in conveying that.

SPEAKER_02 37:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:19

And it almost like opens up like solutions and pathways, like just through the language itself. What's the function of judgment? It's shorthand.

SPEAKER_02 37:30

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 37:30

You know, we we've talked about this. If you say this is a bad neighborhood, you know, someone might think I need to avoid that neighborhood. And maybe that means there's a high crime rate here, there's not a lot of oversight and resources here. And also, like, if you just call it a bad neighborhood, there's a million things you're losing.

SPEAKER_02 37:48

It doesn't give you any information.

SPEAKER_03 37:49

No. And it's really putting a bunch of people who live in that neighborhood into a category of bad. Right. In a way that's inaccurate, not fair, and like discriminatory. Right. Or yeah, if you say it's like the weather's bad out, you don't really even know what the weather is. You don't know what's going on. Yeah. It's like, is it muggy?

SPEAKER_02 38:09

Is it it's meaningless.

SPEAKER_03 38:10

Yeah, it's meaningless. And so often judgments can be like that. And yeah, it's like if you can really get yourself like, what am I really saying that has no judgment to it?

SPEAKER_05 38:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:22

What am I really meaning and what am I really needing? Trying to think where I even use judgments like the most myself. Because now that I don't work at that place, it's been a long time since I worked there. I, you know, judgments do slip into my language way more than at that time in my life. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:39

I think we just talked about good books. That's a judgment. Yeah. It doesn't really tell you anything about the book. Right. Or or even music. I was listening to Josh's playlist. I've been listening to it, which is great.

SPEAKER_01 38:50

It's really fucked up.

SPEAKER_02 38:51

By the way, it's a great playlist, year-end. It's a lot to sort through.

SPEAKER_01 38:56

Yeah. Mother 2025.

SPEAKER_02 38:59

Meaning that's the name of the play. It's a lot. It's a lot of good that a lot of genres that I'm trying to sort through. And good as a judgment. It's a lot of genres, right? But if it's the same thing with music, that's where I'm like, if somebody asks me about music, I'll be like, oh, this is so good. And it's like, but that's not really telling them anything about anything.

SPEAKER_03 39:17

Well, exactly. It's like it's such a good exercise with stuff like that. Like when you say a song is good, what makes it good to you? What makes it good to you? Yeah. Even this book that I'm talking about. What makes it good to me? I remember when I started reading it, there was this is something that happens for me with a good book, a quote unquote good book. There's like a feeling of like familiarity I get. Okay. I both like I'm learning and like intrigued, and I feel like at home. Yeah. And I know for me, not everybody's like this. And I think this can be a bit of a barrier for me to use a non judgmental word. I kind of have to want to live in the world a little bit to like it. Yeah. And that's why I'm the same with shows, and that's why I can't watch like Severance. You know, it's like I don't want to live in those hallways. Well, you can watch it. I can't. You're choosing well. Exactly. I'm choosing not to. Yeah, even that's more precise language, right? Like I'm able to watch it. I'm not enjoying it. I'm choosing not to. Right. Or I'm kind of resisting it because I don't want to live in the world. I don't want to spend an hour with these characters so much.

SPEAKER_02 40:25

But what you just said in the last like whatever, 30 seconds, that told me much more about the book than our first conversation about the book.

SPEAKER_03 40:33

Isn't that amazing? Like I should be doing this. Well, should and should is a judgment. Should is a judgment.

SPEAKER_02 40:39

Good and I think it's so helpful in just everyday life. Parenting, I mean, my kids say stuff is bad all the time. Right. Today's gonna be bad. Okay. What do you mean by that? Right. This morning, because it's the first day back for them. Yeah. It's like, well, and then if you it's uh I always talk about like it's slowing it down, and it's like, well, I'm nervous about this. Okay, like that's giving me some information. How do we and I'm not trying to therapise my kids, but it's very similar to what we do in therapy. Oh, yeah. My friend hates me. What do you mean your friend hates you? What do you mean by hate? Well, they didn't text me back. Okay, you're giving me more information, yeah, right? Yes, they didn't text you back. Let's slow that down. Take me through like what happened, right? Because the judgment doesn't give us any type of like picture here. So let's paint a picture and then figure out is this really like you're fearful that they hate you? How do you know that they right? Like then we can do our thing as therapists.

SPEAKER_03 41:38

Or yeah, it's like you almost have a fantasy that they hate you.

SPEAKER_02 41:41

Or yeah, exactly. It could be any number of things. And when we slow it down and and notice those for ourselves, but also for the people we work with, I think it's super important.

SPEAKER_03 41:52

Totally.

SPEAKER_02 41:53

And also the hope for me, too, would be to release that we're chasing certain emotional states. I know for you as well, because then it's like there's good feelings and there's bad feelings. And I need to get rid of the bad ones and accumulate more of the good ones. Yeah. And that's where everybody gets into those control or escape moves. Yeah. And it's like I need to do everything I can to feel good. Well, you can imagine where that leads a lot of people, including myself, right? Where we're just chasing, we need to feel good feelings and just deny ourselves bad feelings. It's like they're all feelings. Yeah. So let's not judge them. And some of them are much more difficult than others, maybe for you to be with, right? But that's a whole that's like unfolding some of those judgments and getting in there a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 42:37

Yeah. I mean, it almost as we're talking about it, and I I love the extreme, but it kind of undergirds everything. Well, like in Buddhism, right, like the essence of suffering is judgment. Because judging things like inherently encourages you to either, like you said, like force clinging or force abortion. Yeah. And that's like that non-attachment. Like the non-judgmental stance is that gateway to acceptance. And it is a lot easier for me to accept. Like if I say it's a rainy day with this wind chill, there's in that like a sense of like I put on a raincoat, I try to park as close to a building as I can. Yeah. I know what it is I'm facing.

SPEAKER_02 43:29

Yes.

Language Shifts That Change Experience

SPEAKER_03 43:30

Yeah, there's like a knowing, and then like and and that's so much of coping and living with vitality is awareness and then like acceptance of what's in there. Yeah. It's like I'm like right now so remembering just how enormous the concept is.

SPEAKER_02 43:49

It's enormous. And it takes things that feel impossible or insurmountable and it breaks it down into, yeah, today's gonna be a bad day or it's bad weather. Yeah. Let's make this more approachable.

SPEAKER_00 43:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:00

It's not gonna make the weather better.

SPEAKER_00 44:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:02

How do we move through it? How do we uh problem solve? How you know, and so we all judge, right? So it's gonna happen. But if somebody tells me it's a bad movie or a bad album, yeah, I'll very quickly, without asking for any information, write it off. And it's like, yeah, is that the experience I really want? Maybe I need to ask them, well, what what didn't you like about it? Yeah, right. Because maybe something they didn't like about it in their description, oh, I actually kind of like that. Yeah, and like as a judgment, maybe I might have a different experience with that, right?

SPEAKER_03 44:36

Well, yeah, like speaking of albums, you know how we talked a few podcasts ago about how a lot of people judged the Tamin Paula album. Totally. The bad that people applied to that.

SPEAKER_02 44:47

Was it just that it didn't sound like his other albums? Or I wonder.

SPEAKER_03 44:51

Yeah, it's like unfamiliar. It's unfamiliar. Or it's not what you expect of him or what you originally liked about him. Yeah. But if you say that out loud, it's like, I don't like this because it's not like what he's done before and what I expect and what I'm comfortable with.

SPEAKER_04 45:04

If I say that, I almost feel like shame.

SPEAKER_03 45:07

Oh. Because it's like, well, Kelly, this is life. Like maybe open up to what's here instead of like expecting what you've had before and been comfortable with.

SPEAKER_02 45:18

Which I read a terror, what I feel was a terrible judgment. I felt as though I read a review of Marty Supreme that I completely disagreed with. Was it like a roast? It wasn't a roast. It was more, it had the undertone of because it wasn't necessarily feel good, or because it wasn't necessarily because he was so narcissistic in the movie. And it was kind of like, yeah, that's kind of a lot of the point. Total movie.

SPEAKER_00 45:47

Totally.

SPEAKER_02 45:47

And and so, but it had this flare of like, oh, you hit you went into this just wanting to see a different movie.

SPEAKER_03 45:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:54

You weren't going into this really being open to any type of experience. And that doesn't mean you might not like it in the end.

SPEAKER_00 46:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:01

But the review was almost like right, it wrote its kind of thesis under this guise of like, well, it should have been this way. It's like you want you just wanted to see a different movie.

SPEAKER_03 46:11

Totally.

SPEAKER_02 46:11

Or like a different type of quote unquote sports movie, which I even cringed at that, where it was like reducing it to like a sports movie. I know.

SPEAKER_03 46:19

I think the choice of ping pong was intentional, that it is something kind of like diminutive.

SPEAKER_02 46:25

Yeah, I mean socially. I mean, I I thought it was a great movie, but that's a judgment again. I thought it was very worthwhile to see.

SPEAKER_03 46:31

Um the non-judgmental stance by just like noticing the way I'm engaging with something helps me like find my center and my wise mind, like truly it unlocks it to go to like, what am I really saying? I take out all the judgments that are kind of meaningless. And like, you know what's funny about this is like a little tangent on Marty Supreme, the movie didn't judge his narcissism positively or negatively. It didn't condone it, it didn't condemn it, it just kind of showed it. Yeah. I mean, the more I like reflected on it, I think it's like a totally interesting, unexpected experience for me to watch.

SPEAKER_02 47:12

I agree. And I thought the soundtrack choice. Yeah, it was like this movie that takes place in the 50s, but it was like 80s and like New Wave.

SPEAKER_03 47:20

Was there we were wondering, was there a Peter Gabriel song or was it Phil?

SPEAKER_02 47:23

That Peter Gabriel song made me, I left the theater. So good, and I went back. That's off his security album, which came out in '92. Obsessed. Sorry, 1982. And I listened to half that album on my walk home because I walked to the theater and I totally forgot about that song. And I was like, said everyone to like every backtrack of his. Yeah, I was like, This is I just thought that choice, well, however, they came to it, I for some reason it made the movie that much more compelling than me.

SPEAKER_03 47:52

But yeah, um, yeah, so so unexpected.

SPEAKER_02 47:56

Unexpected. Totally. Uh, what's the song called? I've got the touch or something. I think that's I have the touch. I have the touch, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:02

Oh, I have it hearted on my Spotify. I just probably heard it once.

SPEAKER_02 48:05

Anyway, um, great. We could go on. We do a whole lot. Great. Teach the judgment, great. It was great. Love it, great.

SPEAKER_03 48:12

Yeah, but very, yeah. That's so interesting. That review. Reviews are, I mean, reviews are just we could talk about judgment stuff.

SPEAKER_02 48:20

I never really read reviews. I the reason I came across it was because it was driving me nuts in the movie. I could not think of who Rockwell was, and he is the guy from Shark Tank, you know, the owner of the pen company. He's Kevin O'Leary from Shark Tank.

SPEAKER_03 48:37

Oh my god, that's where I've seen it.

SPEAKER_02 48:42

It was driving me nuts. He's not even an actor. I know. And I was like, who is this guy? Like, I couldn't place him.

SPEAKER_03 48:48

I was like, he's I feel like he's been in like and I've seen like one episode of Shark Tank, but of course, those people are like burned into my red.

SPEAKER_02 48:55

Yes. And so as I was like scrolling to look for that, there was like some sort of like small video of a review that was like, I didn't like Marty Supreme, and here's why. And I was like, well, I gotta click on this. It was total clickbait because I want and who knows, maybe the person was trying to be a provocator, but well, yeah, you kind of gotta have a hot take. I know. I was like, okay, I I want to click on this and see what the person said, but that's the reason I was even looking it up. Wow. Kevin, I think his name's Kevin O'Leary or Kevin Leary or something. Yeah, something. But the whole movie was it was driving me nuts.

SPEAKER_03 49:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 49:25

I know this person.

SPEAKER_03 49:26

I just figured he was like a character actor. How funny.

SPEAKER_02 49:30

Yeah. And I'm not even a big Gwyneth Peltrow person. And she was really good.

SPEAKER_03 49:34

Yeah, tears of judgment. She was kind of playing to type, like to her actual self. Yeah. And it worked in a way that was fun.

SPEAKER_02 49:44

Yeah. I wonder if that hit a little close to home, her character.

SPEAKER_03 49:47

Yeah, seems like it.

SPEAKER_02 49:48

Not really.

SPEAKER_03 49:49

I thought it was so interesting that scene where the applause happened and she was turned around. Yes. They had moments like that where you're like, whoa, like they really zeroed in on it in a way. They capture like a split second of something that has like a really interesting, like, narrative role. Yeah.

unknown 50:04

Or like the honey.

Reviews, Music, And Letting Go Of “Should”

SPEAKER_02 50:05

Oh, that thing that was so odd. I was not expecting to figure it out. I was not expecting that at all. Wait, the last thing I will say is Timothy Shalamy does not have perfect teeth. And I liked how there was like a few scenes where they really got close in on his smile. I like when people don't have yeah. I like that. They're like human, they're not like a doll or something. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:32

Well, that's something. Okay, we're veering.

SPEAKER_02 50:34

We're getting way off.

SPEAKER_03 50:35

We're veering, but I will say this because now it's on my mind. I do think it's like with all the like perfecting and plastic surgery and all this stuff, like there are so many judgments within that, right? Like good teeth, bad teeth. It's like the more you augment, like the less yours a feature looks. And like there's so much about like owning yourself, your spiritual self, your physical self that like only is attractive and like magnetic. Yeah. So it's like if the teeth aren't yours, if the nose isn't yours, if the this isn't yours, it's like, are you really gonna look like that's your body and like being embodied? I think it's like that's what people lose. It's like we have that's that's the goal I want to have to not use a judgment, like it's bad to not be embodied. Like my own goal is to be embodied, and I think that requires like let go a little of perfecting things, let go of good and bad.

SPEAKER_02 51:33

Yeah, it's right, wrong. Getting back to the non-judgmental stance.

SPEAKER_03 51:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 51:38

I remember the one time leading a group with you and you doing the writing prompt to think about a place that you have fond memories of. Yes, and then write a description of that place without using judgment. Totally. And it was hard, it's very difficult. It's very difficult because you just want to write, like, oh, it was so great.

SPEAKER_04 52:01

Yeah, I loved it so much.

SPEAKER_02 52:03

Yeah, you know, and you really have to get into the description of that fond place. Like, what am I smelling or what am I feeling?

SPEAKER_03 52:11

Yeah, I definitely didn't invent that, but I remember assigning it. I just stole it from someone. I stole it from you. Yeah, we steal everything, nothing, death to the author. Right. I I mean, it's like even us talking about it right now, I can tell that this week I'm going to be mindful of it. More cognizant. Yeah. Especially because it lights me up so much, realizing like just changing your language, the way you language things, it doesn't affect how you experience them. It is how you experience them. Like the language gives you in so many ways the experience of something. You know, you have a different experience when you say, I should, you know, meditate every day, versus like, I'm interested in meditating every day. What goals could there be around that? It's it's lighter, it literally feels like lighter in the body to say it. I really think it undergirds like everything. It's super important. I love it. I couldn't love it anymore.

SPEAKER_02 53:12

And I'm going to use it. You need to use it. You need to have those unhelpful word boxes in written up here somewhere.

SPEAKER_03 53:18

Oh yeah. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02 53:20

Can't never. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:22

Can't, never, always. Good, bad. I use always. Josh knows this constantly. You're good at going always. I always use always.

SPEAKER_02 53:30

You always use always. Damn it, Josh. You I never use always.

SPEAKER_01 53:33

I always use always. I sometimes use maybe. You know what? You can't you can't never use always. Real quick, what do we think about the David Byrne book feeling good?

SPEAKER_03 53:45

Is that what his book title is? Is it a memoir?

SPEAKER_02 53:48

Wait, didn't you bring this up? Yeah, I love I mean that's probably I think you wrote that in the 80s, right?

SPEAKER_03 53:55

Um there's no way he wasn't conscious of the using judgment in that title. He's way too conscious of being for sure. It's almost like cheeky.

SPEAKER_02 54:05

Well, I I think that was very, I mean, that was that's a very CBT text. And there's a lot of useful stuff in it.

SPEAKER_03 54:12

I have to admit, something embarrassing. I thought you guys were talking about David Byrne. David Byrne. The music.

SPEAKER_02 54:18

Yeah. I think you're referring to I is his name David Byrne.

SPEAKER_01 54:21

Oh my god. I was picturing David Byrne from The Talking Heads writing this book called Feeling Good.

SPEAKER_03 54:26

That's what I thought you were saying.

SPEAKER_01 54:27

And even saying that was what I was saying.

SPEAKER_03 54:29

It's David Burns.

SPEAKER_01 54:31

It is George Burns. I haven't pictured him kind of saying in this voice.

SPEAKER_04 54:36

Yeah. Yeah, it's David.

SPEAKER_01 54:38

It's David Burns. Being our guest. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Well, I'm a really bad producer.

SPEAKER_02 54:44

No, you're not. I should.

SPEAKER_03 54:46

But I wonder if you've read the book.

SPEAKER_02 54:48

The Feeling Good Handbook.

SPEAKER_03 54:49

Oh, the Feeling Good Handbook.

SPEAKER_02 54:51

I mean, it's a text that I wouldn't say just because it's about feeling good, that there isn't useful stuff in it.

SPEAKER_03 54:56

Yeah, because like Marshall Lenahan wouldn't title a book that way, nor would Ross Harris, The Happiness Trap.

SPEAKER_02 55:02

The happiness trap. Yeah. So we don't want to chase the happiness. Right.

SPEAKER_03 55:05

But yeah, like, you know what? That almost makes me think because I am a business owner with my own practice, like, there's a lot of like guidance given to people opening a therapy practice where it's like, don't use your clinical language when you're advertising for people who've never met with you. Like, use layman's terms. Sometimes I'll want to like really over-language it in the non-judgmental way. And some people are like, well, I don't know if that's what I want because I don't really know what that is.

SPEAKER_02 55:32

But I know I want to feel good.

SPEAKER_03 55:33

I know I want to feel good. So I'm definitely gonna pick up that fucking vote. Yeah, I think it's kind of a marketing thing. And and it knows Which makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 55:40

It gets you, it gets your foot in the door, and then Yeah, it's not even nefarious.

SPEAKER_03 55:44

It's sort of like meet someone where they are, and then you gently guide them toward the non-judgmental stance. So suddenly they wanted to feel good, now they feel everything well. To's judgment, they feel everything fully, and they're accumulating more positive emotions, exactly, and they're like transcending suffering.

SPEAKER_02 56:06

Yes, no, we're not talking about talking heads here.

SPEAKER_03 56:08

Yeah, I can't believe I was like, I truly was like a small shit. Yeah, but David Byrne, he really to me is a very conscious being, so I could see him for sure.

SPEAKER_02 56:19

Great hair.

SPEAKER_03 56:20

Oh my gosh. That's a judgment. Great interesting hair. Interesting hair, fun hair. Any thoughts from you, Josh?

SPEAKER_01 56:29

What about the band Bad Bad Not Good?

SPEAKER_02 56:32

I really like that band a lot, which is a judgment. I do find them very enjoyable to listen to. Yeah. So are you?

SPEAKER_03 56:40

I think it's a fun title.

SPEAKER_02 56:41

It's a great title.

SPEAKER_01 56:42

And I think I appreciate it more now. It's like their name in and of itself is poking fun at it. Doesn't matter what you think of us.

SPEAKER_03 56:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:49

Are we really bad or really good?

SPEAKER_03 56:51

Or bad, bad, not good.

SPEAKER_01 56:52

That's the name of the band.

SPEAKER_03 56:53

Oh, nice. For a second, I thought it was like bad, bad, not bad. No, bad, bad, not good.

SPEAKER_01 56:57

Bad, bad, not good. Bad, bad, not good.

SPEAKER_03 56:59

You and I'll say bad, bad, bad kind of as like a joke.

SPEAKER_01 57:03

Oh, bad. Things like bad, bad, bad. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 57:06

Yeah. I think we have some awareness of it, but I I think you and I could use this.

SPEAKER_01 57:11

This will help.

SPEAKER_03 57:12

Like, can you say the same thing you want to communicate without any judgments? I mean, I know that would change it for me.

SPEAKER_01 57:18

I think it's huge, yeah. Should we get some of these word boxes up on the wall?

Everyday Traps: Always, Never, And Mildew

SPEAKER_02 57:21

Get the word boxes up on the wall. I I think even just communicating in partnered relationships, any relationships, trying to get surgical with removing the always and the never's. Because those are just powder kegs waiting to explode. I know I get very defensive if I hear somebody say you never or you always. That is like, whoa, I can count so many times where I've done this, that, and the other thing. Yeah. And I get it. In this moment, I didn't show up or I didn't do it. Let's talk about this moment though.

SPEAKER_03 57:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:56

So that's definitely something where it's like, ooh, that's and I have to be cognizant of because that's such a thing for me. I probably say it to people too. Right.

SPEAKER_03 58:06

So I definitely do.

SPEAKER_02 58:07

I have to be more aware of, like, no, it's not that they always, it's in this moment. And yeah, maybe they've done it in the past, but like, this is the one you're addressing. You're addressing it in this moment. Yeah, you know, that type of thing.

SPEAKER_03 58:17

Yeah, and kind of like slowing yourself down. What am I really trying to say next? Right. What do I want to get across now if I take out all the judgments? It might be like, you're doing this thing, and it's really impacting me in this way. Or it's just it's impacting me in this way.

SPEAKER_01 58:34

Your shirts smell like mildew and it makes me want to throw up.

SPEAKER_03 58:38

Josh's shirts, they're all over there hanging on the drying rack. Yeah. Josh has a problem with mildew in his shirts. At some point, they got mildew, and we cannot get it out. And today we did like a vinegar wash and a baking soda wash.

SPEAKER_02 58:54

Oh, is that why the vinegar was out? I thought maybe you were like pickling some stuff. No, I wish.

SPEAKER_03 58:58

We're pickling like vinegars, wash and a baking soda wash.

SPEAKER_04 59:02

Josh smells them. And he goes, smells pretty normal. I smelled it. I was like, it's even worse.

SPEAKER_02 59:08

It's even worse. Well, maybe it's gotta get worse before it gets better.

SPEAKER_04 59:12

Maybe.

SPEAKER_02 59:12

I have faith.

SPEAKER_04 59:13

I truly said to him when I was we were going through all his shirts.

SPEAKER_03 59:17

I smelled one and I gagged so hard. I thought I wasn't gonna be okay. Like I was like, oh, this is actually gonna go.

SPEAKER_02 59:24

Like, were they left in water and then they like it?

SPEAKER_03 59:26

I think maybe at one point you left them too long in the washer. Sure, maybe and they like infected the rest at the close, or maybe you folded them a little bit. That's what we're doing. And I said to Josh, I was like, I mean, would you be devastated if we ended up having to throw all these out? He's like, It's all my shirts.

SPEAKER_02 59:47

All of them. It's all but five of my t shirts. It's 50 t shirts. Oh, and you have great t shirts. You wouldn't want to throw not anymore. You wouldn't want to throw those away. Well, I mean, we're gonna try a couple other methods. You should. You know what serious? Did once this won't get rid of the smell. She took a bunch of t-shirts and she found a um company that would make them into a blanket.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:08

So that's exactly what I was looking for. That we can sleep with it, Kelly.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:13

The smell.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:14

Sometimes he'll hug me. Like it, like if we're waking up or something, he'll hug me. And I'm like, you smell like throw up.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:20

Do you smell like throw up? Oh my.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:22

It's the mildew. Like, and I am hard of smelling.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:26

And he can't smell it, and I can't. Because I like smell sometimes. And because I'm so hard of smelling, I can't smell myself. And I can smell these shirts, and you can't.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:37

There's something to it, something about that feminine nature. There's something awry here.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:42

And maybe it's like the smell of baby smell. You know, women have like heightened like mothering senses, like they can hear higher pitched sounds for babies and stuff.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:51

Like I smell like a baby.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:52

Maybe we can smell that like smell. Hmm. Oof.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:58

You're gonna be a really good mom.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:59

Molden mildew is like one of my least favorite smells. Sarah used to say to me, you know, you don't get up every time like the baby cries.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:07

And my response to that was it's because I trust you 100%. You're such a good mother, you get up immediately. You just give it more time. And well, I, you know, I'm not gonna let the baby. I was like, okay. Like, yeah. You're you're such a good mother.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:21

You have a different threshold.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:22

You have such a yeah, yeah, yeah, that heightened mother awareness.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:26

Yeah, totally. We were just talking about Josh was wondering, did you guys have it where you had the monitor on your phone?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:34

No, we had a standalone monitor. Okay. So it was like on our nightstand. Okay. It was not on the phone.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:42

Okay. Because my brother has the standalone one, like you're talking about. And then I know a few other people who have it on their phone. And we were talking about this because Josh wants to be able to listen to his headphones when he sleeps when he's a dad. And I'm like, if the monitor's connected to your phone, if the if the crying comes through the phone.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:59

I'm with Josh on this. Noise canceling, don't hear the baby.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:02

Yeah, let them cry.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:03

Let him cry it out.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:04

That's fine. They'll learn. You'll wake up in the morning and be like, they slept through the night. And so did I. It's great. I actually didn't sleep at all. I was up all sleep triping the silly dad.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:14

Five weeks.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:16

Oh my god. I love it.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:17

Like a bad dad.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:19

Bad grandma.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:19

Maybe maybe the conversation will revolve around like taking turns or something.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:24

Yeah. Oh, that's what I said. I was like, on the nights where I'm on duty, you can and then I thought to myself, oh, if we have the monitor on the phone, it'll come through your AirPods.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:32

There's a lot of solutions here. Yeah. Yeah, but he's gonna turn that off.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:36

Disable. Disable now.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:38

Next. It's like when I uh disabled my amber alert on my phone. It's like I don't want this thing waking me up. Our baby's so annoying. Like amber alert.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:50

Shut up.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:50

Trying to sleep. Dismiss or like the tornado warnings. I don't want that warning.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:55

I wanted a tornado. I'm just peace out.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:57

Yeah, I don't want to know if a tornado is coming when I'm sleeping. I'm just sleeping.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:01

Okay. So how wise is it?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:04

How wise is it?

SPEAKER_03 1:03:06

Let's transition.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:06

Let's transition. What do we got here for? How wise is it? Oh, ab okay. How wise is it? This was yours. Yeah. Appetizers.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:14

How wise is it to serve appetizers at a dinner party? I know we kind of talked about this a little bit with Thanksgiving, but I I the reason I thought about this, I'll say. If I may. Go first. As I usually go first, please. Um every time I put out appetizers, I feel like it must be something about the way I host a dinner party. But I think I never want to have the entree come out too late. Like, for instance, when you guys came over for Hanukkah, I was really thinking about I'm like, your kids are in the mix, like they're gonna be hungry.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:47

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:48

Little did I know they were pumped full of candy at school.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:51

Well, how are you gonna know that?

SPEAKER_03 1:03:52

I mean, I didn't know schools really did that still.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:55

Totally. As long as there's no nuts, you're fine. Yeah, just have as much as you want. You think that last day of school they're doing any learning? No. Those teachers are just as happy to get out of it. Kick in a DVD. Um kick in the candy in their throats.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:09

Yeah. Um, but I like I want people to have something right away they can have. Yes. And of course I want it to be something good. So it's like I put out the cheese. But I like I can't leave well enough alone. I have to put out like three cheeses, which like two cheeses max. Pretty sure I ate all of them. Well, yes, a lot of people didn't like the telegraph, and Josh said they thought it was disgusting. Right?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:35

Got that stank.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:36

Amazing. Not noticing my mildew, but couldn't handle that cheese. He honestly was kind of like, I don't want to see it in the fridge.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:43

Amazing. So I'm gonna be honest for a week after I thought everything smelled like cheese.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:48

It's like your mildew.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:50

Yeah. Oh my god, I couldn't escape it. It was like in my nostril, oh my god, I feel bad.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:55

But every time, well, I mean, okay, you guys did eat it, but then I'm like, do people fill up too much then? Like, I maybe someone who's really casual.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:04

What's the fear here? Well, to me, I was fear that they won't like the appetizer.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:11

I'm the fear is maybe that I'm wasting food.

How Wise Is It: Appetizers And Hosting

SPEAKER_02 1:05:14

Okay. Or that they're gonna be full, and it could be more than one. They're gonna be full when dinner is ready.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:20

Yeah. That's in there. That fear is in there a little bit, but I think it's like maybe it's like me just like having fun with myself and trying to like always learn something from a dinner party. But I I think like I've noticed time and again, like, I'll I'll put a lot of effort into, and the cheese I didn't didn't put a lot of effort into, other than like selecting good cheese to me, good cheese at the closure. It was questionable, but selecting interesting cheese that I would feel proud to serve, to use in that judgmental way of describing it.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:54

But you know, obscure cheese that is to two of the three of our parents.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:59

So you're so your cheese selection is based more on your tastes than plain the crop.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:05

Well, no, that's in there.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:07

Of course, I think I have the greatest taste to use a judgment, but like you have the most obscure because you want people to have the experience of this cheese that you like.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:20

I want people to have a wonderful time.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:23

That's a judgment.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:25

Okay, but it's like I I want people to really enjoy the experience. Yeah, and I think I'm like trying to learn, and it's like so like I I'll see, I'll watch all these cooking shows, like I'm I'm in the weeds with it all. And I'm like, oh wow, you could take a Greek yogurt, you sizzle up some anchovies and oil, little chili in there, swirl that into the Greek yogurt, a little salt, a little flaky salt. I do I've done that before, and like one person dips of carrot in, and then we're on to dinner. And I'm like, that's a little devastating to me. And I'm so I'm trying to like, I think I'm also trying to like limit my unnecessary effort to make hosting totally to make hosting feel less daunting and then I'll do it more because we had so much fun having you guys over, and I'm like, I want to do that more, it's so fun, and like I don't want to get so overwhelmed by like the whole house has to be clean and and whatever, like, and I have to have three distinct cheeses, and you know, like, and I think like my area I think is appetizers, but then of course, like, watch, I don't serve them at the next thing, and people are like dying, but then I time the entree for like I was thinking about your kids, and I'm like, I can't serve, I'm gonna can't serve dinner at eight o'clock for kids, right? My nieces eat at like five.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:46

You could have.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:47

Could have, they would have been so hungry, but they were they were fine, they were fine.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:51

Slow roasted hot dogs all day slaving over this kitchen, these Hebrew nationals.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:58

Come on, so cute.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:00

I think my hosting experience has been I get the most feedback and enjoyment from the appetizers I put out when oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:13

Sorry, I I kicked over my water because I was getting really bored. She needs a little gallon.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:18

She fell asleep there. Fell asleep. Um I get the most positive feedback, usually with the less effort I put in. Isn't that the truth? I think the one time people came over and I just did because I wanted them a little bit, and it was like, I mean, this is easy. I did pigs in a blanket. People were raving about it. There was not one left. Wow.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:43

And people were just like, And that was your entree?

SPEAKER_02 1:08:45

It was the appetizer. Oh and they were just like, This is great. I haven't had these in so long. It's so simple. It was just like Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:52

And if you serve those for an appetizer, you don't even have to do a super hefty entree.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:57

Right. So, I mean, I think you're getting into like really upper echelon type of appetizers here. Yeah. Which some people are appreciative of. Totally. But you also want to make it approachable.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:11

Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:11

You don't want to debate about whether I'm gonna like it or not. You want people to just get in there.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:16

Well, that's my whole thing with having three distinct cheeses. It's like everybody likes something a little different, especially kids.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:22

Sure. You know, so it's like that's why I said just straight across the plate. Cheddar cold.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:27

That was so helpful. Yeah. And honestly, we have eaten the rest of that cheddar and really enjoyed it. Straight across. So it's like you never go wrong with that. Right? And then of course it was your kids are so cute. I was like, Do you guys like mild cheddar or do you like sharp cheddar? And Wes was like sharp. And I think Shane was like sharp. I'm like, fuck, I got the mild. They like cheddar.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:45

Do they think they know what they're and then it was like, I wonder if they know. I they kind of do, but they they like cheddar. Yeah, you know, yeah, they want some like super sharp cheese that's like growing cross-eyed. Yeah, yeah. They're not looking for they're not counting the years that this thing's been aged.

unknown 1:09:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:00

Not like it is wise to serve appetizers. Yeah. I think it's how you approach it. I don't think it's that wise if you're putting so much effort into it. Because you do want people to be hungry.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:15

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:15

And what if you just what is this an appetizer if you just put out like nuts?

SPEAKER_03 1:10:21

I mean, that might be the ultimate appetizer.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:23

Right?

SPEAKER_03 1:10:24

Now, one kind of nuts or two?

SPEAKER_02 1:10:25

No, I don't know. Just like mixed nuts or like a bowl of check's mix or I I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:30

Just have a few things wheat thins on one little bowl.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:34

Yeah. And just have them staggered throughout so that people are having they have an option when they're sitting, they have an option when they're standing in the kitchen, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:43

So it's just out, and then people, you don't even have to prepare anything really.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:46

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:47

Or I guess by prepare, you don't have to make anything in the oven or you know that type of thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:52

You know, it's like I hesitate to even have a guest bring the appetizer because I wouldn't want someone to walk hard and bring something and then no one needs more.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:00

My new thing is like you guys brought dessert, excellent. Either dessert or a vegetable side. There you go. Because sometimes, I mean, we love veggie. Like a salad.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:12

A side for dinner or like a veggie tray.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:15

Dinner. So many veggie trays are just like whack to use a judgment.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:20

Well, I think, yeah, if you don't put any effort into it, you just buy the plastic store ball one, sure. It's like but you could pick your own vegetables. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:28

Yeah, like shade vegetables. That like, yeah. But I mean, I'll never forget having people over and like doing that with the chili oil type thing. And then I I genuinely think one person tried it.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:42

And then we ate dinner.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:42

And I was like, fuck. Just have some hummus out.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:46

Yeah, maybe hummus is the way.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:48

Some pita, some veg, done. Carrots, pita, hummus. Easy. Easy. So wise. Or yeah, I honestly think the less effort you put into appetizers sometimes, the more people enjoy that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:02

I think the thing about having them in multiple areas is critical. Because sometimes they feel inaccessible.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:09

Because then people can circulate the room.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:10

Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:11

Well, your kids are so cute, they circulate.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:13

I love it. Oh, they're all Shane wanted to get on the patio. It's like so cold outside. He's like, we're going out there. Like, no, we're not. That's so cute. We're definitely not going out there. No, we're not. It's gonna be a disaster.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:30

And I love like after we were done eating, Wes was like, I'm bored.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:33

I was like, I love that they just say what's on their mind.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:36

They just say, Oh, yeah. It's great. And and you're always gonna get honesty, especially from Shane. It's amazing. Honest opinion.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:44

It's so cute.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:45

You know, when we were leaving your place, Shane ended up like walking into a bush. He wasn't like paying attention. And so he like walked into like a really dry bush, and he was then he was crying, and then Wes was laughing, and Sarah was laughing, and then he was thought that we were making fun of him. It was great. It was great.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:03

It was all around it's almost like he had too many cocktails at the party.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:08

Totally. They were so happy and tired at the same time, which was great.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:14

Oh, yeah, it was really so fun.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:16

I like, I think getting back to the how wise is, I think it's wise to have appetizers. I don't think it's the wisest to put so much effort into it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:24

You know. And now this is just a selfish side question, and then I'll be done. What how long into arrival should the entree come out? You guys came over at 6 30.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:37

Um, I don't know. I don't think I've ever really given it that much thought.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:40

Okay. I was thinking like an hour, and then I was factoring in the actual time because I'm like, these are kids. Like there's gotta be a seven in front of that number of kids.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:49

Yeah, you gotta right. Kids throws in a whole other thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:53

I mean adults, I could serve it at nine and people.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:56

But the other thing with kids is sometimes, you know, I've been to places where they get served earlier, yeah, and then they just eat, they do their thing, and then the parents will eat later, you know. So I think when you're hosting and children are involved, depending on the ages, sometimes the main dish is coming out for them, which it might be a different dish.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:14

Meaning like the kids all, if there's multiple kids, like they are not everybody sitting down at the same time. The parents are kind of facilitating the kids' dinner at kids' dinner.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:22

The kids' dinner, and then they go and do their thing, or you know, and then watch Jonas. Yeah, watch the Jonah, the Jonah.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:28

Yeah, and then we put on some steely Dan.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:31

Oh, the Dan just was good.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:33

They have a nine-course meal. No, it was great. I think, yeah, an hour? That's good. An hour, okay. That's what I was thinking. I could stretch it to two for maybe adults that are like having cocktails.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:45

You could, but then you're running the risk of people getting really hungry and then eating too much of their appetizers. See, that's the it's it's like that's the game you're gonna be able to do.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:55

Yeah. And I, you know, I do find it fun to try to not perfect it, but try to master it to some extent. I'm working on it. And I'll be working on it forever. Well, yeah, but in a good way. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:11

Yeah. It's a fun thing to be working on.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:13

Yeah. It's creative. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:17

Wait, I'm gonna throw a wrench in here. What if you host just with appetizers?

SPEAKER_03 1:15:22

I mean, I love that.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:24

Actually, instead of a sit-down dinner, you just have like a cocktail three waves of like, okay, like this thing I am gonna put effort in, this comes out, and then again, it's a lot of work for you as the host, but some of the things can be prepared, and then like, okay, the next wave, here's the next appetizer that's gonna come out or whatever. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:42

Martha Stewart, I have her very first book.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:45

Oh, yeah, that book.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:46

That's entertaining, as Kate Berlant says, it's from like 1912. Yeah. And she talks about different types of parties. And one, a cocktail party, that's what it is. There you go. It's cocktails and it's just apps. Yeah, that's all it's past order's. You know, some some sometimes call it heavy apps, but they don't even have to be heavy. Now, how would you feel about a just appetizer party, Josh?

SPEAKER_01 1:16:13

No, no, if we're getting really hungry, it's like you can be like, should we order a pizza?

SPEAKER_03 1:16:18

Well, that's true. You can always kind of like, I mean, heavy apps could end up being more food than a meal because it's like if I've got like flatbreads and deviled eggs and bagel dogs, or what were those things you did? Pigs and blankets. Pigs and blanket.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:31

Yeah, you can do bagel dog too.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:32

Sure. Like all these little things. Yeah. The chili oil dip, the hummus, all that stuff. Like that winds up being a lot of food. True. And then maybe some dessert, like apps. Yep. Maybe our next get together, that's what we should do. Latkas. Latkas with a little those were great. A little cavity. Three types of latkas. Yeah. Did you like the latkas? Yeah, they were great. Honestly. The whole dinner was. I was pretty proud of the latkas as a non-Jew. I thought they were.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:01

Well, you get it right. You gotta get rid of all that liquid.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:04

That's what's key. Uh those potatoes, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:06

Yeah, for a second. I thought you were talking about the oil. I was like, I actually used quite a bit of oil.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:10

No, the water. Water. Yeah. You gotta get all of that out of the potatoes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:14

And I think there's no other way to do it besides that towel and really really. Yeah, you gotta do that. Yeah. You gotta like roll up the sleeves for sure. On that one. But honestly, it didn't take that long.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:26

I think people need to short write in and tell us their hacks for apps.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:31

Yeah, I would love to know.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:33

What's gone over well, how much effort, how much time, how much food.

Year Mark, Local Plugs, And Closing Notes

SPEAKER_03 1:17:38

Yeah. Do you are you the kind of person you like to have kind of just enough for everyone or way too much? Way too much. Most people like way too much. Yeah. You can send people home with food. You can, you know, have leftovers for a long time. Yeah, we had way too much food at Christmas. Like way, way too much. It's the holidays. Yeah, it's holidays. I mean, there were, I think there were like 45. Do you remember how much dessert there was? Tons.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:02

I loved it so much. Cheesecake.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:06

Like 14 different types of cookies. There was like birthday cake someone brought.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:11

There was not like peppermint cheesecake. Two cheesecakes. One was peppermint.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:15

Wow. It was like almost like it was a mistake. Not even gluttonous. Almost where you're like, okay, we should have really gotten on the horn here. Like these are too many desserts. Way too many. Like too many things that I desperately want. Like Portillo's cake plus like a bat burnt Basque cheesecake and a peppermint cake.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:34

Why is it that I loved that so much?

SPEAKER_03 1:18:36

Yeah, you were like hog heaven.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:39

That's great. It sounds amazing. And then I gained 17 pounds and I can't stop snoring. But I think it's wise. But it's wise. That's wise. And now I'm feeling good. Now we're feeling good. It's a new year.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:52

It's a new year.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:54

We did it.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:55

Made it to 2026. We made it.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:57

And we made it to the end of this episode.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:58

Is this our 52nd episode? Is it? We might be like right around the year mark.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:03

Oh, yeah, because we debuted it.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:05

Yep. We're right in there.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:08

Wow. So year in review. A year in review. So exciting. Well, thanks everybody for joining.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:16

Yeah. Yeah. Um, where can people reach you?

SPEAKER_02 1:19:19

They can reach me at butts, but jonathan at gmail.com. I'll plug Marty Supreme. We talked about it. Go see it. Go see it. Write a review, nonjudgmental.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:29

If you're gonna write a review, see if you can do it non-judgmental. See if you can do it.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:32

Yeah. What about you?

SPEAKER_03 1:19:34

If you want to reach me, you can find me at my website, kkpsychotherapy.com. Um, you can send me an inquiry on the inquiries page. If you want to work with me, if you have questions about the pod, topics you want to suggest, dinner party advice, any of the above. And anything else, really. And how about you, Josh?

SPEAKER_01 1:19:56

You can reach me at joshbayerfilms.com. Bayer as in the aspirin. Just check me out. I'm there. You can reach me there. And uh other other plugs. Uh, should we plug that place? Um, the La Vayatan? What's that place called?

SPEAKER_04 1:20:16

What place?

SPEAKER_01 1:20:17

Where they have the beigners?

SPEAKER_03 1:20:18

Oh Levaine, oh Levain. Yeah, we found a new, you should try it. It's like a French bakery. There's one in oh I said gluten-free. They have sourdough English muffins, but it's not. You probably can't have sourdough at least yet.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:34

I'll enjoy it through you though.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:36

Yeah. Do they have gluten-free? Maybe.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:38

I don't know. I should have looked this up.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:39

I mean, it's kind of like a hit place.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:41

We're a celiac-friendly podcast.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:43

Yeah. It's so good. Oh, Lavaine.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:46

I still go. They have coffee.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:48

Really good coffee. I'm in. And they don't oversweeten it if you get sweet. I don't. You don't. It's blurry straight across the plane. I mean, it's delicious coffee, don't you think? I think it's like superior coffee. Oh, yeah. Sparrow coffee, it's called. Like the coffee they use is called sparrow coffee.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:04

It's using lots of judgments here. We went there two days in a row, haven't been back.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:08

I literally went two days in a row, which is like embarrassing. I'm sure the staff was like, you know, but it was like too good not to be a good idea.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:16

That's the ultimate compliment.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:17

Yeah, I think it is. So and that's what I screamed at them. No, I'm just kidding. Um, but you know what? Did you ever go to Irene's The Breakfast Place? On it was on Irving, it burned down. No. It's called Irene's Finer Diner. Well, the same people, I guess they're maybe not opening the diner again. Okay. Even though it burned down. Same people. It's called Irene's bagels. They look really good. We popped in there. There's nowhere to sit, so we didn't stay, but we're gonna go back and it looks really, really good. Nice. On Montrose, I think. Kind of by um Allevane. Like Damon and Montrose.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:53

Damon and Montrose.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:55

Damon and Montrose. I was just thinking about the street.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:58

Yes, farm bar. I was kind of thinking, was it used to be called the Fountainhead?

SPEAKER_02 1:22:02

Yeah, Fountain Head. Yeah. Now it's Farm Bar. Yeah. There's also that big blow-up teddy bear ice cream place. Yes, Teddy's. Yeah. Right there? Yeah. Yeah. And there's a bookstore. A very small there.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:12

Yeah, you know exactly the intersection. So it's right there and smelled really good. The flavors were really good.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:17

Yeah, my bagel game's a little low these days with the celiac of it all.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:20

So I keep suggesting things that are. No, it's great.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:24

These are good suggestions.

SPEAKER_04 1:22:25

God, I'm like. Hey John, you know what's really good?

SPEAKER_01 1:22:28

You ever try a loaf of bread?

SPEAKER_02 1:22:29

Just don't even slice it. Just have a loaf.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:33

I'm gonna have a suggestion for you that is not bread.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:36

Why? It'd be boring. God, I feel like I'm an idiot. It'd be boring.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:41

Not really doing the bagels as much.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:44

But I'll scrape off all the meat on it and eat that.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:47

There's a sourdough bagel place by us. You can't. I mean, I know sourdough they say is like gluten-free because the gluten breaks all the way down.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:54

But I'm sure someone was silly actually.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:56

I'm sure at some point I'll just not care anymore and just be back on gluten. I'll just eat it.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:02

Yeah, I'll just show my face full of bagels.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:04

Why not?

SPEAKER_03 1:23:05

Okay, well, thanks everyone. Thanks, everybody. Next time. Happy New Year.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:09

Yes, happy new year. Bye. Happy 2026.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:13

The WiseMind Happy Hour podcast is for entertainment purposes only, not to be treated as medical advice. If you are struggling with your mental health, please seek medical attention or counseling.