how wise is it to do another CULT ep? (feat. James Hruska, LCSW)

Cults are all around us...on TV, on our phones, and maybe even we're in one. James Hruska (LCSW) joins us for this rousing discussion about hit HBO cult docuseries "The Vow" and the affiliated NXIVM cult founded by Keith Raniere.

- music by blanket forts -

Transcript

Old Office Mates Reunite

SPEAKER_06 0:04

All right, welcome to the Wisemind Happy Hour. I'm John.

SPEAKER_00 0:07

I'm Kelly. And we have a guest in the studio.

SPEAKER_06 0:11

We have James Ruska. Hello, everyone. LCSW. So now I'm outnumbered at this table. Yeah. It's a social work party. Two social workers, one LCPC, Josh. Get your LCPC.

SPEAKER_03 0:23

I've got a PC.

SPEAKER_06 0:24

Yeah, you do. I don't know what that is, but personal computer. Yeah, perfect. You're right there. But we're always joined by Josh, our producer. So welcome, James.

SPEAKER_02 0:35

Thank you so much for having me all.

SPEAKER_00 0:36

Oh my god, it's so exciting.

SPEAKER_02 0:38

Yeah, it's so nice to be in this room with you both, considering we used to share an office. We used to share an office. Like Boo's Reveal, we were all coworkers and we shared an office.

SPEAKER_00 0:48

Yeah. This is really getting the band back together, if you will.

SPEAKER_02 0:52

It's a throwback. It'll be seven years.

SPEAKER_00 0:55

Wow. In the spring.

SPEAKER_02 0:57

Since I joined the team. Wow. And we used to all work together.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

Oh my God. Which is kind of wild. Time is weird. Yeah. Time is weird. And when James joined, you were very young.

SPEAKER_02 1:08

Yeah. I was fresh out of grad school. That's right. It was my first like full-time job.

SPEAKER_00 1:13

Yeah. Wow. You wouldn't have known it. Yeah. You were such a good employee.

SPEAKER_06 1:17

It did not feel like that. Because sometimes when we have people join, or when we did have people join the team, there's a very vast like difference between new graduates of like people that really it was almost like they were just born and then like literally. It was straight out the world. Yeah, straight out of the world. Like, okay, we're really gonna have to do a lot of hand holding. It didn't feel that way at all. Wow. And you took to it like a duck to water. I had some good teachers.

SPEAKER_02 1:44

So that being the both of you. Yeah. I mean, you all taught me a lot of my like group therapy DBT stuff.

SPEAKER_00 1:51

Like good times. And you taught us about Gen Z life. Yeah. You know, the rest of the world.

SPEAKER_06 1:59

Yes, definitely.

SPEAKER_02 2:02

I'm cuspy. I'm cuspy. You're cuspy. Millennial.

SPEAKER_00 2:04

Yeah, because you're technically a Gen Z?

SPEAKER_02 2:07

Because I was born in 94. So I think that's like what a year or two before the cutoff? Yo, what is the cutoff?

SPEAKER_00 2:14

95? Oh, if it's 95, so you're technically millennial.

SPEAKER_06 2:18

I'm technically a millennial. Because I'm right on the cutoff. Isn't 80 for 1980 or 1979 for is it 80 or 85? Oh, wait, look, I'm gonna look it up just because um it's so topical. No, yeah, you seemed older, not as young. But then when you revealed you're like, yeah, I'm taking off uh five days or four days for Lollapalooza, I was like, okay, I'm old. Because if James is doing that, he's he's still in the game, he's young, he's doing it. I was like, I can't do that. I can barely do uh one full concert. I'm tired after a couple hours.

SPEAKER_00 2:53

I'm tired.

SPEAKER_06 2:54

I'm like, what is going on here? And then standing outside in the heat at Lala all day. I know Josh, that you live for that, but I live to be tired.

SPEAKER_02 3:02

Yeah, yeah. Taking the Monday after off work is like essential. Yeah. So I can just like be on my body and rehydrate. I was at a concert though, like a month ago, and the headliner went on at 8 20 instead of 9 p.m. And I was like, this is everything I could have ever asked for. I'm gonna be in bed by 11.

SPEAKER_06 3:20

That is always hearing that the my Achilles heel. It's like, okay, you're gonna go to this concert, and then they're like, here are the three bands that are gonna come on before it. And I'm like, I'm not even gonna see the show I paid the ticket for. Right. It's like it's so late. Yeah. Like shows at Lincoln Hall used to start so late. Do they still do that?

SPEAKER_00 3:38

We have one on Thursday.

SPEAKER_06 3:39

When is the when is the main act going on?

SPEAKER_03 3:42

Probably like eight.

SPEAKER_06 3:44

Really? That's good.

SPEAKER_03 3:45

Yeah. I feel like Lincoln Hall, I don't think it's obscenely late. I gotta check the books.

SPEAKER_00 3:48

Empty bottle is crazy. It's like 11 they come on.

SPEAKER_06 3:52

Yeah, I feel like that's a few times when I went to Lincoln Hall. Now, granted, that was years ago, where it was like, what is going on here?

SPEAKER_00 3:59

Right.

SPEAKER_06 4:00

Yeah, you're like, I gotta get out of here. And then I'm just blowing money because I'm like spending money on drinks like for like three hours.

SPEAKER_00 4:06

Totally get a reasonable spot.

SPEAKER_02 4:09

Yeah, yeah. I need like a matinee concert. Like go on at once PM. Totally.

unknown 4:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:15

I was just saying that about something. Like, if they made this earlier in the day, I'd be all for it. What was it?

SPEAKER_06 4:23

Wouldn't it be funny if it I always think it's kind of an odd experience when you go, I love going to the movies regardless, but when you go to a matinee and then you come out and it's still bright outside, like what if you went to like a concert and then you came outside and it was still like bright? It would feel like almost like a kid's concert. But you went to a really dark venue and then you came out and you're like, man, I'm glad that show started at 11 a.m. It's like, wow, it's already the next day.

SPEAKER_00 4:48

Like a whole day ahead of me. Wait, this is what I said it about like a nightclub. I could go to a nightclub and like dance and hang out if it was like almost like during the day. Yeah. I could do that and I would enjoy that, I think. But you know, that's not how it is. It's like you don't even go till it's like midnight.

SPEAKER_06 5:05

Yeah, right?

SPEAKER_02 5:06

I mean, I don't do that anymore. No.

SPEAKER_06 5:08

I don't I don't remember the last time I saw midnight on my clock. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 5:12

I mean, I see the I know I've said this before, but our problem is like I'll be here doing nothing in midnight one, you know, like rolling away on those cooking videos. Like watching cooking videos, we're watching TV. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 5:26

You're looking for the full body heat suit that we talked about last episode.

SPEAKER_00 5:30

Online shopping for sure.

SPEAKER_06 5:32

Which speaking of last episode, if people want to see, we have Heart the Lover. Yes. The novel that we talked about as a couple of years.

SPEAKER_00 5:38

Josh already finished it.

SPEAKER_06 5:39

Josh finished it in a week. Lily King, I'm gonna take it home.

SPEAKER_00 5:42

It's a great book.

SPEAKER_02 5:43

So we don't have your um heated gloves though to demo.

SPEAKER_00 5:47

No. I mean, they're in the drawer over there.

SPEAKER_02 5:51

Plugged in. They're charging.

SPEAKER_00 5:53

They're they're basically charging. So let me write that down. They're sleeping. They're sleeping. Yeah, they're resting. God, I love those heated gloves. They're so great.

SPEAKER_06 6:03

Well, they're everything in the weather right now.

SPEAKER_00 6:05

Yeah. What's funny though about the weather now and heated gloves is like it's the how cold it is now. You're not gonna go out really for more than just A to B. So I'll turn the heated gloves on. Josh and I went to dinner on Saturday. I turn the heated gloves on and I'm outside for two seconds. They're not even heated up yet. I'm in the car. Now they're hot.

SPEAKER_06 6:24

I'm sort of like this makes sense. So you have to turn them on here for like 15 minutes before they start to actually go out. Yeah, I could do that. Yeah. That makes sense, I guess, right? I it's like it's like a heated blanket, you gotta turn that to go for it.

SPEAKER_00 6:38

Yeah. Now my fingers are cold in the car too, so it's like that helps. And then I can leave them on the whole car ride and then they're hot once I get out. But they're also a little heavy.

SPEAKER_06 6:47

I just imagine you're like in the car like this. Like in Josh has to put like the belt on you because you're just like almost like that, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:54

And then you're strapped and you're like, now I have to pee. Yeah, I'm wrapped in bubble wraps.

SPEAKER_00 6:58

You put them on and then trying to get the coat on, trying to the zipper, trying to put your boots on, trying to get your, you know, whether we like valet our car because I had this cache, and I'm like, we're using this cache to valet, it's too cold. So then it's like trying to get the money out of my wallet. It's like all kind of a little bit of a mess. Like I felt a little silly.

Cold Weather, Cozy Talk, And Concert Timing

SPEAKER_03 7:19

I get really dumb in the cold. Yes. I went to Goodwill the other day on Martin Luther King Jr. Day, and they didn't have anyone working there, so everyone's just like piling everything on the side where someone's usually standing to kind of like organize the stuff that's coming in. And I took my boots out that I was donating, I put them on the pile, then I took my clothes up, put them on the pile, then I took the boots and put them right back in my bag and went into the car. And I've got to get it. And he came home with the run back. I came home with my boots.

SPEAKER_06 7:47

Look what I got from Goodwill. But I donated these beautiful boots that fit me.

SPEAKER_03 7:52

It's 10 degrees.

SPEAKER_06 7:55

It is hard to think. It's hard to think.

SPEAKER_03 7:57

It is.

SPEAKER_06 7:58

I can't imagine people that went to like those the Bears game this past weekend. Like, that must have been crazy.

SPEAKER_00 8:03

I mean, that's insane.

SPEAKER_06 8:05

Apparently, the quarterback of the Rams wore a scuba suit under his uniform. Wait, scuba suit?

SPEAKER_02 8:13

Like a wetsuit? Like a wetsuit. Oh wetsuit. Okay. I think for a wetsuit to work, though, it's supposed to have like liquid in it. Because your body sucked the water in the wetsuit to keep you warm.

SPEAKER_06 8:24

Now, again, this was like peeing in his wetsuit before the game. I I can't confirm I didn't watch the game, so I can't confirm whether that was, but that was the word was that he was gonna wear a wetsuit. Yeah, weird. You'd have to get it wet.

SPEAKER_00 8:36

I mean, that's I'm surprised more players aren't like again, this is a sports podcast. I'm more players are not.

SPEAKER_06 8:45

That's my large scheme.

SPEAKER_00 8:47

I'm surprised more players aren't like demanding, like I'm gonna be wearing a full therm thermal suit if I gotta be out here.

SPEAKER_06 8:54

Well, they have to perform though, you know? Yeah, maybe they feel like it impedes on their performance.

SPEAKER_00 8:59

Right, or probably the tough players that are like saying, Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 9:04

Yelling. They're like, I don't care if I get frostbite because I'm tough.

SPEAKER_00 9:09

I I hate almost nothing more than being cold. It's the worst feeling. It's a pretty bad feeling. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:17

But it's nice to be inside when it's cold out. Yeah, being cozy. I value coziness. Yeah, you're right. And you don't have to like do anything.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

Yeah. If if you don't have to do it, my younger brother John, he speaking of that, when he can't sleep, he told me he does this visualization that it's like really cold out and he's like snug and warm in bed, and it helps. Oh, I like that.

SPEAKER_06 9:36

Yeah, that helps him fall asleep. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:39

I know it's interesting.

SPEAKER_06 9:40

That is a nice visual.

SPEAKER_00 9:42

Yeah. I don't know if he just like came up with that or what, but he said it helps.

SPEAKER_06 9:46

That's good.

SPEAKER_00 9:47

Yeah. Okay, well, maybe we'll do a little checking in.

SPEAKER_06 9:50

Checking.

SPEAKER_00 9:51

And I'm trying to think if we should explain any more about James. I mean, you're a wonderful former office mate, you're a wonderful therapist. You're gonna help us talk today about cults.

SPEAKER_02 10:01

Oh, I'm excited. Yeah, I'm just so interested by cults. Yeah. I like consume all of the documentaries and books I can. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:09

Okay, so you'll be our resident cult expert.

SPEAKER_02 10:12

Yeah. Unofficiency.

SPEAKER_00 10:13

Unofficial cult expert.

SPEAKER_06 10:14

I love sure. We're unofficially experts in everything on this podcast. That's which is great. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 10:21

We're we're we're kind of like Keith Raineris of this podcast. Who all of you will learn about in due time if you don't know about him already? But yeah, let's check in. Maybe we'll go.

SPEAKER_06 10:31

Let's check in. What did you do this weekend? Okay, what or you went to dinner?

SPEAKER_00 10:36

We went to dinner. Josh and I went to a really good dinner at have you guys been to the place Andros Taverna?

SPEAKER_02 10:42

No. Are you talking about the place right next to it? There's Andros and Mano Amano.

SPEAKER_00 10:47

No, we went to Android. Oh, you went to Andros. Yeah. Have you been to the place next door?

SPEAKER_02 10:51

Yeah. Mano Amano is really good. But I haven't been to Andros. Yeah. I've been wanting to.

SPEAKER_00 10:55

Okay, so we love Andros. Uh-huh. But I'm totally interested in Mono Amano. Yeah. It's like Greek food. But like kind of more authentic. I mean, I'm sure someone from Greece would be like laughing their head off hearing me say that. But it's like more authentic than maybe like your average. Who's to say? Who's to say? They have really good spreads. That's a big thing. Like their bread and their spreads. Like eggplant dip.

SPEAKER_03 11:24

Tera masalata.

SPEAKER_00 11:25

Terra masalata, which is a very authentic Greek spread. It's like salmon dip. It's so salmon mousse almost. It's so salty and so good. Or like fish eggs, basically.

SPEAKER_03 11:38

Yeah, if you like fish eggs, but liquid.

SPEAKER_00 11:41

You'd be all about it.

SPEAKER_03 11:42

Interesting. Okay. Texture sounds a little odd. Liquid eggs. It sounds good. I'm trying hard to make something appealing sound unappealing.

SPEAKER_00 11:51

Yeah. And yeah, what else did we have? We had lamb.

SPEAKER_03 11:54

We got that the fried eggplant wrap with halloomy.

SPEAKER_00 11:58

Oh, that was it was like a very lightly breaded and fried eggplant with halloumi cheese rolled into a pita. That sounds great. It was so good.

SPEAKER_03 12:08

That might have been my favorite of the night. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:10

And then we got this martini they had that like kind of wasn't that good.

SPEAKER_03 12:14

Tasted like malort.

SPEAKER_00 12:15

And like, yeah, it did it. It had like a slight malort taste, the famous Chicago alcohol. I mean, nothing's as bad as Malort, except Malort, but that's a judgment. I mean, yeah. Nothing's as punishing as Melort.

SPEAKER_02 12:30

That's fact. How do we non-judgmentally describe Mallort? Drinking razor blades more. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:36

Or it's almost like smoke and like things I can't even say out loud on a podcast.

SPEAKER_02 12:41

Yeah, probably.

SPEAKER_00 12:42

Yeah.

unknown 12:43

Totally.

SPEAKER_00 12:44

I need to go check that place out.

SPEAKER_02 12:45

Because the sister restaurant, Mano a mano, it's like the same owner, I think.

SPEAKER_00 12:49

Connected. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 12:50

Yeah. Great. And they're like the Italian kind of vibe. So it's a lot of like homemade pastas and we didn't even think of that.

SPEAKER_00 12:57

Maybe that's why it was so easy for us to get a res, because they opened that new one and people on there. I bet you that was it. Yeah. You know, some might call this a little overpriced. You know? Some people like my dad and Josh's mom both said that about this place. But we like it. And if you order the right stuff, like they have a couple things on there, like fish by the pound, like don't get that. But you can get out of there at a reasonable price. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 13:26

That's really good.

SPEAKER_00 13:27

Maybe a little bit fancier. Yeah. But that's really all we did, right? Did we do anything else?

SPEAKER_03 13:32

We just kept going to that restaurant. Well, we we were boning up for this um podcast. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

We were watching the first season of this show that we're gonna talk about. The cult we're gonna talk about. We were boning up on that. Yeah, we really were cozy at home. So I don't have anything too interesting. Too interesting. Yeah. Perfect for this cold weather.

SPEAKER_03 13:52

We got a dog.

unknown 13:54

We didn't.

SPEAKER_03 13:55

Oh it's hiding. Oh, we watched Felicit. We watched Felicity too.

SPEAKER_00 13:59

Yeah, we're watching Felicity if you guys have ever seen it from that.

SPEAKER_06 14:02

I love Carrie Russell. Yeah, she's great. Sarah loves anything Carrie Russell's in, but specifically Felicity.

SPEAKER_00 14:08

Yeah. I feel like Sarah and I have really similar TV tastes.

SPEAKER_06 14:11

I have not watched The Diplomat, but everybody says she's really great in that.

SPEAKER_00 14:14

No, I haven't watched it either. I tried to watch The Americans. I can really get it. Love the Americans. You loved it. Okay. I gotta get rid of it. So shot.

SPEAKER_06 14:20

I loved it. But I really like the spy genre and that it's set in the 80s before like all of this like technology. Right. I just think it's it makes more of like the black arts or the dark arts like interesting when it's less technology-based.

SPEAKER_00 14:35

Yeah, you know, totally it's more impressive.

SPEAKER_06 14:38

Yeah, and it's it's just more about like relationships and um wasn't she in waitress that movie? Yes. I saw that a long time ago. Totally.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

But what's new with you? We'll go around.

SPEAKER_06 14:50

Um, I'm trying to think. Well, I ended up going to the Bulls game, which that'll lead into our how wise is a question, even though it's like bitter cold. So we went down there and there was not that many people there because the Bears game was on.

SPEAKER_00 15:03

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_06 15:04

So, and actually, Wes had a game over here at Chase Park. Oh, he has another game coming up there if you guys want to drop it.

SPEAKER_00 15:11

Oh my god, yeah, next time tell us. Yeah, we would love to.

SPEAKER_06 15:15

Yeah, so he had a game over there. He scored his first points of the season, so he was jazzed about that, which was great. Yeah, that's big. I know. Oh, so he was down on himself after the first game after he didn't score, but okay.

SPEAKER_00 15:26

Scoring's not the only thing, it's not the only thing.

SPEAKER_06 15:28

It's and his coaches tell them that. Like it's not the only way to contribute, right? And so rallied. Rallied, got it. Um, yeah, but then we were kind of just hanging out too because it's so cold, like during the day.

SPEAKER_00 15:40

Yeah. Wait, when you said the thing about the Bears game, it reminded me we did see a movie. We saw The Housemate. Have you guys didn't see it?

SPEAKER_06 15:46

That sounds familiar.

SPEAKER_00 15:47

Is that the Sydney Sweeney movie? Yeah. What were your thoughts? I haven't seen it. It was like fun. It's a movie movie. Like it's a movie movie. It's not gonna like ask a lot of you, like emotionally or metaphorically.

SPEAKER_03 16:01

We almost were wondering if it was kind of poking fun at a certain genre of like it seems like what would the genre be? Like trashy, like trash noir.

SPEAKER_00 16:13

Love it.

SPEAKER_03 16:13

I was like, this could is this the fatal attraction of Michael Black.

SPEAKER_06 16:16

Like a psychological thriller?

SPEAKER_03 16:18

Yeah. It's a psychological thriller.

SPEAKER_00 16:20

It's a psychological thriller.

SPEAKER_06 16:21

But trashier.

SPEAKER_03 16:22

It's it's the it's uh what what not Paul Feig. Wait, Paul Feag. Paul Figue, the director of Ghostbusters.

SPEAKER_00 16:27

Who did bridesmaids, Ghostbusters? So it's like there'd be music cues at parts where like people started laughing in the theater when it wasn't like being played for laughs in the movie, but like the music was maybe doing that.

SPEAKER_06 16:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 16:39

Kind of like heightening it in like a satirical way.

SPEAKER_06 16:43

Wait, this is a movie that's out right now in the theater? Yeah, you guys went and saw it. Oh, I thought you were just like streamed it or something.

SPEAKER_00 16:48

No, we went and saw it because I realized like we it was not busy because of the Bears game. What theater? At the Alamo Draft House.

SPEAKER_02 16:55

Oh, I've been meaning to go there. It's so fun. It's so great. Parking lot's a nightmare. Okay, yeah, that's my concern. I'm like Wrigleyville. Do I want to drive there?

SPEAKER_00 17:02

Yeah, there is a parking garage, and that's great, but it's very inerrobe.

SPEAKER_06 17:05

Or as Shane would say, It's on Clark. The Alamo draft. The Alamo.

SPEAKER_00 17:09

Oh, so I was like, really? God, I had so many things like that when I was Alamo.

SPEAKER_03 17:15

Remember the Alamo.

SPEAKER_06 17:16

Yeah. One time we were driving, and and all of a sudden Wes is like, Latin. And I'm like, what? And I'm like looking around, I'm like, what do you see? Latin. And he's like, right there. And I look over and it says LA Tan.

unknown 17:28

Oh.

SPEAKER_06 17:29

And I'm like, Latin? I'm like, what are you talking about? Yeah. All the time, these kids.

SPEAKER_07 17:33

It's like, it's like Latin.

SPEAKER_02 17:36

It's like, no. When I was a kid, I saw an LA Fitness sign. I was like, La Fitness. Yeah, La Fitness. Exactly.

SPEAKER_06 17:43

I love La Fitness.

SPEAKER_01 17:45

Oh my God.

SPEAKER_06 17:46

Oh, and then yeah, that just reminded me. The other thing I I try to um, well, two things. I, when we talked about last week, I really tried to romanticize. I went to the record store. You did? Yes. So I got you all stickers from Reckless.

SPEAKER_00 18:00

Wow, yes. I love it.

SPEAKER_06 18:05

But I went, I turned my music off because sometimes when I'm in the record store, I'm listening to my music.

SPEAKER_00 18:11

Okay.

Weekend Check-Ins And Media Chat

SPEAKER_06 18:12

Um so I just really tried to like listen to what they had on. And um yeah, just spent like 20, 25 minutes, not too long, but just kind of went in there. I didn't buy anything. I just wanted to like take it all in and enjoy being around it. So it's a great experience. Did it feel like you were in a movie? Very romantic. Very romantic. I mean, I was wearing a beret, but no, I wasn't. It's just because that clicking we were like, maybe you have a beret, and maybe you're drinking a cappuccino. Um yes. Uh it didn't feel romantic. It did feel like caring. That was the word. Like it was, I care about this store, I care about engaging with music in this format. So yeah, I feel like it filled me up a little bit.

SPEAKER_05 18:55

I love that.

SPEAKER_06 18:56

So I tried that out.

SPEAKER_05 18:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 18:58

And then I tried um I'm on the second episode, I watched TV so slow. Uh Black Rabbit.

SPEAKER_00 19:04

I've heard that that's great.

SPEAKER_06 19:05

So he's got Jude Law and um Jason Bateman. Yeah. Why can't I think of his first name? Jason. Jason Bateman. Yeah. And so he is uh Jude Law like owns a restaurant, and then that's like kind of like at its peak. I don't want to give too much away. But anyway, um, Jason Bateman comes back. He's kind of an estranged brother, uh, but you're kind of getting a little bit of a backstory about like how he was a part of the restaurant building it, and he has like addiction issues and things like that. And so there he's kind of in trouble and kind of his brother gets roped into it. So interesting.

SPEAKER_05 19:40

I mean, it sounds like an interesting plot.

SPEAKER_06 19:43

Yeah. I don't know how I feel about Jude Law, but anyway.

SPEAKER_00 19:46

Yeah, how are we all supposed to feel about him?

SPEAKER_06 19:49

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 19:50

He like cheated on his wife with an annie.

SPEAKER_06 19:52

Yeah, I don't even know if I like him as an actor.

SPEAKER_00 19:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:56

What about an iHeart Huckabee is loved him in that?

SPEAKER_06 19:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:00

I know some people don't like.

SPEAKER_06 20:01

And I this is, you know, it's a safe space, I can admit this. I do like the movie The Holiday. I don't like Cameron Diaz.

SPEAKER_00 20:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 20:08

She ruins that movie for me. Totally fair.

SPEAKER_00 20:11

And Kate Winslett's see the same.

SPEAKER_06 20:13

I love all of the parts that have Kate Winslett and Jack Black in it. But anyway. Well, Jack Black's just a national treasure. Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 20:21

What did you do, James? Yeah, tell us. Well, my fiance Luis loves the cold. And it was very cold this weekend. So we went over to my future sister-in-law's place, and Luis grilled in the backyard with the like five-degree weather. Wow. And made a really amazing feast. What did he make? Oh my goodness. So much stuff. Skirt steak, chorizo, chicken, like onions, zucchini.

SPEAKER_06 20:48

Was he standing outside or was he doing the thing where he was like, I'll flip it, hop inside, and then when it's ready to flip again, I'll get back out there? It's like a cold out there.

SPEAKER_02 20:58

It was full of snowing while they were growing. That's full. Like, that is commitment.

SPEAKER_00 21:02

God, it's so cold.

SPEAKER_02 21:04

Yeah. And Luis had the best time.

SPEAKER_00 21:06

Do you think that if there's a little feeling like I can do anything?

SPEAKER_02 21:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:11

Yeah. I think so. I think what does he like about the cold? He just like runs hot. So I think it's like finally like oh outside doesn't make me sweat. Got it, got it, got it. That makes sense. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:21

I can't imagine running hot. No. I am cold 24-7, pretty much. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 21:27

Except for like some moments. But think of the feeling you get if you're like you're in a really stuffy like party and then you step outside and get that blast of air. If that's what he's feeling like a lot, then it's like I would I'd go for that if I ran really hot.

SPEAKER_02 21:40

Because that is a really nice feeling when you're just like, oh, thank God.

SPEAKER_06 21:43

Right.

SPEAKER_02 21:44

I think I think they just feel like empowered in the cold. They're like, nobody else is out here. It's my time to shine.

SPEAKER_00 21:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:50

And then yesterday my car didn't start. That's right. So I had to Uber to work. And I had unfortunately parked in like a metered spot because it was like Sunday night when I left my car there. And so you didn't have to pay on Sunday. And so then I had to pay what was like five dollars for every two hours my car just. Did you have to pay still in the holiday? Oh my god. Yeah, I mean the meter took my money. That's terrible. It doesn't normally if you don't have to pay. That's terrible. I didn't know if there'd be like a meter mate out there in the zero degree weather. Oh, and they find you. Yeah, they would.

SPEAKER_06 22:20

Like immediately.

SPEAKER_00 22:21

Yeah, that private company would have metermates out there.

SPEAKER_06 22:23

I I come back and there's still a ticket. They somehow like almost know where they have a six cents of it's like there was only a five-minute window there where it wasn't covered, and then terrible.

SPEAKER_02 22:31

Yeah, I'd rather pay the 20 bucks for the parking than deal with the parking ticket. But the weird thing was when I came home from work, my car started. So I don't know what to make of that. I only crashed out like a teeny tiny bit. So I felt pretty proud of myself for the way I coped with that one.

SPEAKER_00 22:49

Oh, yeah, crashed out as the kids say.

SPEAKER_06 22:51

That is like the Gen Z part of my my cusp coming out. No, there's nothing more frustrating than when you're like, that's the furthest thing from your mind. You already got your day planned out. You're like, my car's gonna start. That's a given.

SPEAKER_02 23:03

Yeah. And then when it doesn't happen, yeah, game over. Shout out to Luis though, because they like packed my lunch the night before, like laid out my clothes, got me my favorite coffee, and then they like went to scrape the car off and the car wouldn't start. And they're like, well, at least I did all this really nice stuff. And I'm like, thank you. I think that gave me enough, I don't know, dopamine to to cope with the car not starting. So yeah. I'm curious about it starting later, like it needed to get just a little warmer out. I think that's what it was. Yeah, it has 145,000 miles on it.

SPEAKER_00 23:33

So wow, it's a well-loved car champ.

SPEAKER_02 23:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:36

What kind of car is it?

SPEAKER_02 23:38

An Elantra. I've been on quite a few journeys with her. She was fully stolen from me when I was in Minneapolis. I got carjacked.

SPEAKER_00 23:46

Oh my god, and they found it.

SPEAKER_02 23:47

Yeah. I had to get it towed back to Chicago, and then there were some repair issues with it and a whole saga. Wow. So she's still kicking. It's an approach.

SPEAKER_00 23:56

Oh my god. Josh and I thought we were gonna have our car stolen when we went to the Pistons game.

SPEAKER_05 24:00

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 24:01

We did a spot hero and they told us, like, you know, drive in, leave. That's the spot hero directions. And then we got there and there were these two guys that were like, We'll park your car at ballet tonight. And we were like, doesn't say that on the spot hero app. And they were like really insistent. We gave them the keys in the car, and then I had a meltdown panic. And we went back and I was just like, I'm not leaving here without my keys. Like, and then they finally were just like, whatever. They rolled their eyes at us and gave us the keys. Oh wow. But it was kind of scary. What do you guys make of that? Was I being a Karen or I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 24:35

I'd feel anxious about it, especially after having my car stolen once. Yeah, I think that's a healthy fear. Yeah. The spot hero thing is tough.

SPEAKER_00 24:43

Like it wasn't in the directions that there would be two people there parking cars. Huh.

SPEAKER_03 24:48

It also wasn't in the directions that we'd get our car stolen. Did they did you have like a QR code that they like scan or anything like that?

SPEAKER_00 24:55

No, this one didn't have that.

SPEAKER_06 24:56

Or like a barcode?

SPEAKER_00 24:57

Oh, wait. Here's what. Here's what. Actually, I'm I lied. When I looked back at the directions, in fact, it said there will be an attendant, have them look at your Spot Hero app, then you park your own car, and then when you arrive back at your car later, you just drive it right out. And they they wanted to take our keys. That was the difference.

SPEAKER_06 25:18

Yeah, that seems a little bit right. That seems a little weird. So because I'd I think I've done the Spot Hero where you they scan the barcode or they see the barcode and then you don't give the you don't relinquish your keys.

SPEAKER_00 25:30

That's kind of the benefit of Spot Hero.

SPEAKER_06 25:32

But it was valet night. So well, it was very confusing.

SPEAKER_00 25:35

And then we were seeing people drive their own cars in and out as these two people were like, we'll drive it.

SPEAKER_06 25:40

It's like that scene in Ferris Bieler. It's like, yep, take those keys. Just going around the greater Detroit metro area with 15,000 more miles on it or whatever. It's got to put the car in reverse. Yeah, put it in reverse.

SPEAKER_00 25:56

Reverse all the miles. So yeah.

SPEAKER_06 25:59

I think when I was little though, I thought that that might work. Because I didn't know how cars worked. So if you put it in reverse, yeah, why wouldn't I go down? Erase all the miles.

SPEAKER_00 26:07

Yeah, it makes totally makes the most sense. Yeah. Okay. Well, we've all had fun weekends, winter, weekend, wintry weekends. Yeah. Should we get into some cult talk?

SPEAKER_06 26:19

Absolutely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:20

Okay, let's do it. So we've talked about cults before on this podcast. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 26:24

But that was more in the wild, wild country talk. I think we talked a little bit about that.

SPEAKER_00 26:29

And you know, like when we were watching this, I wasn't really thinking as much about the similarities between this cult and wild wild country, but it could be interesting if anyone has thoughts on that. Or if it comes up in our discussion.

Introducing NXIVM And The Vow

SPEAKER_06 26:39

Yeah. So our main cult is going to be which cult? Because you all watched it right before.

SPEAKER_00 26:44

So James and Josh and I did a little rewatch of the VOW. The VOW. The first episode of The VOW.

SPEAKER_02 26:50

Yeah, so it's the Nexium cult. Yes. Out of Albany, New York. So what is the Nexium cult?

SPEAKER_00 26:56

Well, okay, so I Googled what does Nexium stand for, and uh Google AI said it doesn't stand for anything. They just like named it Nexium and XIVM, which it's like really seems like that should be an acronym. But yeah, I think it's just supposed to be it's just supposed to look cool. And what okay check? So the Nexium cult you know, a lot of cults, like Scientology, for instance, identifies as a religion, so it's like a tax-exempt religious organization. Nexium's a little different, it's like a self-help organization that claims to be based in science. Now, whether that's real science.

SPEAKER_06 27:38

And this was started by Keith Rainier.

SPEAKER_00 27:42

Yeah, Keith Rainier, who calls himself a scientist, right?

SPEAKER_02 27:45

Okay. Or Vanguard, according to the cult.

SPEAKER_00 27:48

Yeah, tell us about Vanguard.

SPEAKER_02 27:50

Yeah, Vanguard, which by the way is a bit of a red flag if the like leader has this special name and you can't refer to him by his name. But yeah, Vanguard or Keith Rainier is sort of like the the leader. But um, I wouldn't necessarily say he's charismatic. Right. So that's sort of interesting. But yeah, so he's developed this tech, this technology, and is the smartest man in the world.

SPEAKER_00 28:16

That's what all the followers say. He has an IQ of 240, according to Keith.

SPEAKER_02 28:22

According to him.

SPEAKER_06 28:22

Yeah, we have none of us have seen any documents. According to nothing, but yeah. This is so I want to interject here because I've seen this entire, as you have, but you all are rewatching it. I wasn't able to rewatch the first episode again. I always remember from watching the entirety of it, never having a full understanding of what the cult actually did for you.

SPEAKER_00 28:45

Great question.

SPEAKER_06 28:46

And I feel like it just wasn't really explicit in explaining. Oh, there's is that the same word, explicit in explaining, but I don't remember it being like, here is our main objective. Totally. Why would someone join this? Why well, right? I just can you guys explain that? Because I don't feel like I had a good understanding of like, okay, self-help, great, but what is it helping you do with the technology?

SPEAKER_02 29:09

Whatever the technology enhances human experience. Okay. Don't you know what that means? I I have no idea what that means. Can you please tell us? I think that's part of the issue, is that you can't really like define the result. So you can never measure done or know that you met your goal. Right. So you're constantly spending more money for these intensives and constantly having to work out your disintegrations. And yeah.

SPEAKER_06 29:35

And when you say these sessions, they're like the one-on-ones, or they're the group sessions, they're both on ones.

SPEAKER_00 29:42

Well, the one-on-ones are kind of group sessions because they're done in front of everyone.

SPEAKER_06 29:46

And then what do you do in them? Okay. So I'm just thinking of somebody who's listening to our podcast right now and like and I watch the whole thing, I'm still like, what are they doing here though, other than playing volleyball? Volleyball plays a huge role. Like, I don't get it.

SPEAKER_00 30:04

So, yeah, there's all these like funny, disparate parts. But I in because now I've seen that first episode three times.

SPEAKER_06 30:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 30:12

Now I'm like even getting a inkling of what like how someone might like A, learn about this organization, and B want to join. Like what would motivate them to want to join? It sounded like from the doc, because as all cults have this directive of recruitment, like get a lot of people to join the cult and like grow, grow, grow. So each member has like recruitment um responsibilities, like when they're in the cult, as well as like dues and they have to pay money. It seems like what it said on the website was like an organization with the goal of like creating a more enhanced civilization, which is like both like sort of specific, but pretty not specific. And like it seemed like people found this by meeting members out in the world who were probably sent on these like recruitment kind of missions. And it is a little coercive, even in the recruitment, because they would say, like, oh, are you noticing like your life is like whack-a-mole? And when you fix one problem, another pops up and another pops up. You know, don't you want to not have that? Like, almost like, don't you want kind of like inner peace, self-actualization? Don't you want, and then by getting that, you're participating in us making all of society actualized.

SPEAKER_02 31:38

Yeah. And so Nexium is like an umbrella company, and underneath it, there's all of these separate parts of it. And so the main kind of one is ESP or executive success programs. And basically the sell is that they're going to be able to teach you how to like reach all of your goals, whether that's like a creative goal, like writing music and getting a record deal, or like being a film actor, writing a book, or like pursuing some, you know, prestigious career. They're like, we have the answers for you to reach all of your goals. Got it. And then it turns into this thing where they're like, we believe that you have control over your emotional state and your reactions at all times. So if you want to feel happy, you can just manifest the feeling of happy and live in that feeling all of the time.

SPEAKER_06 32:22

And see, I feel like this was much more helpful than even the documentary. Maybe I just need to rewatch it again. I just feel confused the whole time. I mean, uh it true. Just like put the 10-minute clip of the sales pitch so I can see what it actually like is or something like that. You know, I think that was done on purpose. I don't know.

The Sales Pitch: ESP, EMs, And “Tech”

SPEAKER_00 32:39

Totally. And I think they didn't really have a sales pitch because they were a little coercive in trying to get people. Because each person in the documentary talks about their story of finding out about it and joining. It was pretty like quote unquote organic. Meaning they'd meet someone and they'd say, I can change your life in five days, or I can, you know. And it seems like people went out and looked for people that were kind of searchers and seekers and maybe a little lost. And I know from watching a different cult documentary, the one about Heaven's Gate, they I believe it was that doc where they had a cult expert on. And she said, you know, people always ask me, like, are cults like people who join cults are like broken or mentally ill or like inferior. She's like, no, never. They're always like high functioning, pretty like socially adept people that are at a very lost moment of their lives. Because they're, she was like, cults do not want members that are going to be dysfunctional, that are not going to play their role, that are not going to be enthusiastic and motivated. They want people like that. But it's usually people that are pretty vulnerable. So, which seemed to be the case with a lot of the characters in this doc. Yeah. This is an HBO doc, by the way, if you want to watch it. And it came out a few years ago at this point, maybe 2021 or something. Um their core ethos is like, you are in your own way in terms of everything you want and your like growth and becoming what they call unified. Your limiting beliefs are what are stopping you from getting there. Or they call them disintegrations, as James said.

SPEAKER_02 34:18

Yeah. And then they do these kind of like one-on-one sessions, but it's in front of like the whole crowd, so it's not really one-on-one. And they call them EMs or exploration of meanings, and they claim that they, you know, could do like a year's worth of therapy in 20 minutes or whatever. So one of the examples was one of the guys, Mark Vicente, had very intense like anxiety when being driven on the highway. And so he does this EM. And the next time he's on the highway, he's like, Oh, I realized that I felt nothing. And I tried to bring up the feeling of panic and it wasn't there. And so I was so, you know, like flabbergasted that it worked. And yeah. So they have these claims that they can, you know, do a year's worth of therapy in five minutes and you know, you know, help these people with their integrations.

SPEAKER_06 35:02

And so that did work for him though. In that instance, right? So we're thinking about the power of suggestion, placebo.

SPEAKER_00 35:10

Well, what they tell you in the doc, and I had forgotten this. Nancy Salzman, who's like kind of head of curriculum. Yeah, I remember that name, was an NLP expert before they developed Nexium, which, if you remember, who's an NLP expert was on this podcast.

SPEAKER_06 35:28

I don't remember.

SPEAKER_00 35:29

Albert Bramante. Oh, really? Hypnosis and NLP are pretty connected. Remember, he was saying neurolinguistic programs. That's right. Because Josh and I were like NLP. Right. So I think these explorations of meaning are like types of his hypnosis or NLP, which kind of tracks for how they might work pretty quickly for pretty suggestible people. Yeah. And then get them in an even more suggestible state. I mean, it might essentially be hypnosis.

SPEAKER_06 36:00

Yeah. I think so. Now, were you I because I don't remember when you joined, were you doing your own like living your own life and then going to meetings? Because I what I remember is the the like compound where they all live together.

SPEAKER_02 36:13

So was it like a am I misremembering this or is it they have these like retreats or like five-day events that you have to pay thousands and thousands of dollars for? And then it's more so if you like decide that you want to like commit your life to you know becoming like a teacher. Okay, most of them end up moving to like Albany, New York, where Keith Rainier lives, and then they all kind of like live in the same neighborhood or share houses and stuff. That's what it was, right? Yeah. Yeah. But what was really interesting in this first episode is that after they kind of talk through just like the general kind of like intro sessions, they start to go into like their Tourette's study and claim that they've like cured Tourette's in multiple people, yeah. Which is their attempt to, you know, make their tech more valid and like scientific, even though it's not peer reviewed nor actual science. Right.

SPEAKER_00 37:00

And there are some clients or like subjects from that study who like claim that it cured their Tourette's. And then others who argued that the study was pretty like unethical and kind of abusive in its tactics.

SPEAKER_02 37:16

Yeah. Well, one of the things too that's really coercive about the cult is that in the like sessions, they have you write down like your deepest, darkest fears and like all of the things you have regret for, and then you're like turning that in to the leaders, right? Who obviously are able to review that and like use that against you, and so they like know your most vulnerable things and can kind of use that to manipulate you to kind of continue to pay money and move through the program. So got it.

SPEAKER_06 37:42

Yeah, and just for just because I just looked this up because I this is great, but I wanted to know like what makes a cult a cult? Yeah, tell us. So, you know, AI always, right? Yeah, approach with caution. A cult is a group centered on intense devotion to a charismatic leader or ideology using manipulation and control to demand extreme loyalty, discourage questioning, isolate members from outside influences, and enforce rigid rules, often creating an us versus them mentality with unique beliefs that dictate members' lives. Yeah. It's defined less by specific beliefs and more by authoritarian control, deception, and psychological manipulation that disrupts the members' identities, turning them dependent on the group. Yeah. So I know that's a mouthful, but that that helps me kind of understand through a lot of that, like what makes it, and certainly the charismatic leader, right?

SPEAKER_02 38:37

Yeah. Yeah. And a big part too of this is if you like leave the group, you get like excommunicated and shunned, and you're fully out, and like nobody talks to you, or in Nexium's case, they'll use like legal action to go after you and punish you. Force you to pay all sorts of money for lawyers and yeah, which is very common in Scientology.

SPEAKER_00 38:56

People are harassed if they leave. Yeah. And you're also kind of encouraged to excommunicate people in your life that are not part of the cult. Right. Like suppressive people, both Nexium and Scientology use that term for people who are against the cult's ethos or not in it. Yeah. And yeah, so should we talk about what's most controversial about this particular cult? Because there's many things. Let's. James, you want to let us know as our extra.

SPEAKER_02 39:24

Well, so you know, throughout the vow, it kind of details this, but you know, it's sort of like uh turning the heat up over time, and you kind of don't notice that the temperature's increasing. But, you know, Keith Rainier ends up creating this kind of like subgroup called DOS, and he starts getting the women to become his like slaves, which is you know, sort of a coded word, but that's what he calls them. And so then it kind of creates this like sorority, and the women within DOS end up getting like assigned to have sex with Keith Rainier and starts to turn into like a sex cult. Um, which gets very intense.

SPEAKER_06 40:03

And while the heat is being turned up, if I remember correctly, don't the women answer to other women to hold them accountable? There's also like they're being malnourished and they're trying to lose weight or they're trying to like excessively exercise. Like so, which is also certainly not helping in people making clear judgments or being able to think about what's happening, right?

SPEAKER_02 40:27

Yeah. Yeah, they're told that it's all women, but really it's Keith Renier at the top, kind of orchestrating it all, but they're not aware of that. So to them, they think it's a sorority, like, oh, these women are coming together to make me the best version of myself. But yeah, it starts, you know, restricting their calories. They have to do like readiness drills where you know they have to respond to a text within a minute. That's right or they get punished by having to take a cold shower or restrict food longer. Yeah, all sorts of things.

SPEAKER_06 40:53

And didn't they were and it was also like they had to send pictures of themselves, right?

Tourette’s Claims And “Science” Theater

SPEAKER_00 40:57

Well, so okay. That's how they get part of their getting into it. Okay. Something called collateral. Collateral. So in the doc, how they introduce it, right, is one of the women, one of the stars of the doc explains that she's in ESP, which is like a more out there, less secret part of Nexium, where you do this executive success program, you're doing these EMs to help your limiting beliefs, moving up the ladder and helping and coaching other people to do the same thing. A friend of hers within the organization said, Do you want to be part of this subgroup of women? It's women empowerment. That was like James said, it was like it's about women empowerment. But if you join, in order for me to tell you more about it, you have to give me something called collateral, which is essentially blackmail. So you have to give me, tell me secrets about you that you wouldn't ever want to get out, like negative things so that I can know how committed you are. I can be sure that you're committed to the city. That is the devotion, right? That's like a show.

SPEAKER_02 42:02

And it includes like nude photos, or somebody even like puts like the deed to their house up as collateral, which obviously like is super coercive and blackmail. I mean, once you've sent that over, you really have no choice.

SPEAKER_00 42:15

And the other thing that this person tells her is when you join, you uh you'll be under me. Each each of the original members has like a bunch of members under them, and those members are considered their and she uses the term slaves, and she says, and I'm their master, and you'll call me master, and I'll call you slave. Which, like on it, obviously to the three of us is a pretty like shocking term to use. And it's presented to the women as kind of like an exercise in what could you call it? An exercise in devotion to something, commitment to something. And they keep arguing that it's like commitment to self and yet they're abandoning self to obey this master for what they can eat, control of their money, I believe, their labor, their goals. And a lot of the women get really encouraged to make goals around losing weight. That's a big part of this cult. And it's kind of a hallmark of cults, apparently. Controlling the body. And yeah, food intake definitely has a lot of effect on your like psychological health and clarity, your wise mind. Um well, okay. Do we want to get into the branding piece? I mean, it gets worse and worse.

SPEAKER_02 43:33

It gets worse. Yeah. Something else, too, that I think is really like manipulative about it is that you are basically like told not to trust your intuition anymore. Yeah. They call it viscera. So if you're having like an intuitive response that something's off, it's like, oh no, that's just like your viscera telling you that you're, you know, that you need to change more. And so they're basically like conditioned to no longer trust their intuition. So then that coupled with being like malnourished and sleep deprived, like how you know people aren't going to be able to realize, like, I'm in a bad situation here. This is not healthy for me. Which is our podcast, right?

SPEAKER_06 44:15

The wise mind happy hour, right? Like we we talk all about. And James certainly knows from a DBT perspective, right? Like we want to listen to our intuition, right? Because even if we don't know exactly what it's telling us, there's some inherent wisdom there, right? That at least it's like pinging. So that's so I don't I don't remember that at all, but that's so fascinating that it's like no, like don't pay attention to that.

SPEAKER_00 44:38

That's actually not yeah, yeah, just noise that gut feeling or that yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:44

Yeah, they're told not to trust their wise mind. Right. Like actively turned away from their wise mind. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:50

And so somehow what they invite the women to do, like, and they really do coerce them because they like have them put blindfolds on, take off their clothes, they don't tell them where they're going on one of these like DOS retreats, and they're brought into a room and the women are told they're gonna be branded with like this hot poker. And the brand they later kind of find out upon looking at it is Keith Rainier's initials mixed with Allison Mack, a main DOS kind of member, one of the earliest members who's like running it with this Keith guy. Kind of like a sign of ownership over them. And a lot of people talk about in the doc how like to brand someone like burn their flesh is so incredibly painful. It like forces a dissociative state for someone, so they don't know what they're agreeing to. And you know, a lot of the women, I mean, there there was heinous violations going on in this, even beyond just the brand, you know, like sexual assault. I mean, it's all sexual assault forcing them to be naked, is sexual assault, you know, all of this stuff. And then they have this brand, so there's also that like cognitive dissonance of like, I've done this, I've gone this far, so I guess I am committed to this group, kind of the way like fraternities and sororities haze, and this is considered a sorority. And yeah, like these women all the time have to spend like every second of every day asking permission from their quote master, what they can do, what they can eat, what they can eat, they're run ragged every single day.

SPEAKER_03 46:27

Master, may I have 31 calories?

SPEAKER_00 46:29

Yeah, yeah, may I have 92 calories, were some of the text messages. And then some of the women, part of what they're kind of told to do or like scheduled to do is sex with uh Keith Reneery in the head. Yeah. And one woman said she wasn't really that wasn't put on her radar as something that her master wanted her to do until she had lost a certain amount of weight. Yeah, I mean, heinously. Yeah, so I mean it's horrifying.

SPEAKER_02 46:59

Hence the sex trafficking charge that results in that and other charges that result in 120-year prison sentence for the leader.

SPEAKER_00 47:06

And what's so interesting for us as therapists, or I can say for me as a therapist, is like we watched again this first episode, and the self-help like intro piece to this organization seems pretty benign and kind of similar to therapy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 47:24

And I think a lot of people when they watch a cult doc, they're like, I would never join a cult. And it's like, yeah, well, if you knew what DOS was, you wouldn't join that. Right. But the like kind of more benign self-help aspect of it, I'm like, I would fall for that. I wouldn't have caught on the red flags, like because I know them now, but I certainly would not have been aware of them at the time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 47:44

Well, it's that's it's the slow burn, right? It's like the incremental. If I can get this person to do this thing, you know, I'll we'll sit in that for a little bit more.

SPEAKER_05 47:55

Yeah.

Red Flags: Language Control And Collateral

SPEAKER_06 47:55

And then I'll get them to do the next thing and see, right? Like it's that incremental. We're right, when you see the disaster and the the house is on fire, then you're like, of course I wouldn't join that cult. Right. Totally. I remember reading an article that was like a woman who had written a book about cults and and done research and was like, there's so many cults out there. You only hear about the ones that go up in flames. Right. Like and it was kind of like a shocking thing to read that sentence where it's like they don't all just burn down. Right. Like there's a lot more out there that you're not even aware of that are still operating. And you know, the ones that make the news are the ones you're like Jonestown and you know, Heaven's Gate and all of these things.

SPEAKER_05 48:36

Yes, the extreme.

SPEAKER_06 48:37

But you know, and Scientology, I guess people know about it, but it's an example of it's up and running.

SPEAKER_00 48:42

It's up and running totally, and people are devoted.

SPEAKER_06 48:45

Reading that just kind of sent a chill down my spine where it was like, oh, yeah, this is yeah, more out there than you think, probably than I was thinking.

SPEAKER_02 48:53

I think too, there's also like parallels between cult or culty groups and like abusive relationships or partners. And so I think when people feel like, oh, well, I you know can't relate to this at all. I think it's it's actually more relatable than a lot of people think, like the course of control and just some of the manipulation that happens and like intimate partner violence. Yes.

SPEAKER_06 49:13

Because at any moment somebody from the outside might be like, Well, how did you let it get that far? Or how did you let this person treat you like that? Or right? And it's like, well, it's like it maybe it didn't just happen at one moment, right? There was like so much manipulation and and other things going on, coercion, whatever it is, like that led up to maybe now we're seeing it in full view, but when you're in it, you're in it.

SPEAKER_02 49:39

Yeah, and I think it's important for people to like kind of be aware of some of the red flags, like being told to doubt your wise mind or your intuition, or you know, being told that your feelings aren't accurate or valid, or one person having so much power or control over you, or there being only one person who has the solutions or the answers, right? Yeah, some some red flags.

SPEAKER_00 50:00

Well, yeah, because like even that idea of like I am the reason for a lot of my problems, right? Or I'm in my own way. I personally, and to an extent clinically, like hold that idea a lot of the time, both like clinically, like in a functional way, but also I'm in the manifestation. Like, I think a lot about, and I remember thinking this so much with dating, you know, because like I would meet other women that were single, and this would like dating is such a fun topic and people love to talk about it, and especially if you're looking for your partner. You might in some ways be like desperate, you know, and want to know like what other people's strategies are and whatever. And I remember being on like a bachelorette weekend where someone was like, you know, we were the only two single women there, and she had like recently gone through a breakup and she was like, you know, what are your strategies? Like, what are you doing? What are you putting on your online dating profile? What are you doing? And I remember saying to her, like, the only thing in my way is myself, you know, like I don't need to think about what do I write on the profile, how do the pictures look, how do this it's more about like, how do I relate to myself? Am I connected to myself? And I believe that, like in my bones, I believe that. But I was thinking about that, like hearing Keith Rainery talk about that, like these ideas that like in a deep way resonate. But I wonder what you two think of this, because I almost think like if you don't hold that idea dialectically, you miss the entire essence of it. I don't literally think that nothing else has an effect. True. You know, like it's almost like you hold an idea and there's a core of it that's true, and there's a bunch around it. You know, it's like you don't have to look at yourself as a victim in general, but you can also acknowledge when you have been victimized. And I think there's something important in doing both, especially in this group, because it's like if you coach a whole like generation of people that like you can never be a victim, and you convince them over and over of this idea, and then you victimize them, then they believe, like, oh, I this is viscera, like I'm not a victim, even if this person is like sexually abusing me in the moment.

SPEAKER_06 52:16

But I think there's also the other half of it, which is these people believe he has the answer. Yes. So it's not just that, absolutely, like I do believe I you can hold, like, I yeah, I am getting in my own way, yeah, 100%. But they are also clouded by the idea that one person is going to get them out of their own way.

SPEAKER_05 52:35

Right.

SPEAKER_06 52:36

Right. Whereas in therapy, it's like, yeah, we can have conversations with people where it's like, it seems like you're getting in your own way in this.

SPEAKER_05 52:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 52:42

But it's also we hold the space of like, I'm not gonna tell you what to do.

SPEAKER_05 52:46

Right.

SPEAKER_06 52:47

I don't write. So there is a huge difference there where it's like, and and he probably doubles down on that. And it's like, well, of course I have the answer for you. That's why you're here with me. That's why we're doing all of this, right? Like, because I am the one who's gonna lead you through it. So I think it's like both of those things happening simultaneously, probably is like you not only are you getting in your own way, but you're not even empowered enough to do it. You need me to help you get out of your own way.

SPEAKER_02 53:11

Almost like a super like toxic, rigid form of radical acceptance. Like, you must radically accept that you are at fault for like every single thing that's happened to you, and it sort of like disqualifies the role that like systems play. Like, yeah, we can dialectically hold that like I have responsibility for my own behavior, and also there's things outside of my control that I respond to and have feelings about. That's also important and valid. So yeah, it's just very, very toxic and rigid.

SPEAKER_00 53:39

I'm always like trying to think about like the person at the top's like head space. Like, what is do they get lost in the sauce and suddenly they're sexually abusing people, or was that the intent from the beginning? Like what I almost wonder if you get like drunk on the power. I'm sure you do, but it's like I wonder where it starts. Like, I don't know why that feels meaningful to me and me, I'll probably never know.

SPEAKER_02 54:03

It makes me think about some of the people like below Keith that also like went to prison for their involvement, but also were victims themselves. Because I think for some of them, like Alison Mack, for example, she actually thought she was like doing good things for people. Like it was all in the pursuit of like self-improvement or improving the people that you know looked up to her. I I think she legitimately believed that. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 54:27

Cause you listened to a little of her pot.

SPEAKER_02 54:29

Yeah. So now it was really interesting. Yeah. Because she kind of like goes through the process of like kind of still struggling with the fact that she did bad and did harm to folks. And I think it took her kind of a bit of time to really like come to terms with that and kind of like unscramble her brain because you know, she was just so manipulated. Right. And so it was really interesting. It's like a seven-part series, perhaps, maybe six or eight. But it's really interesting to kind of like hear her process because the interviewer kind of talks about her before her prison sentence during and after. And so you kind of get a sense of her kind of like arc and coming to terms with it. Um, but it was a bit of a lengthy process. Like she really had to undo a lot of the brainwashing.

SPEAKER_00 55:13

Having seen her in the dock, when you say like she has this like new insight, like I instantly something in me, my talk about my gut feeling. I feel like that's fake. Yeah. I don't know why. I feel bad.

DOS, Starvation, And Branded Obedience

SPEAKER_02 55:25

I haven't even heard it. Yeah, I don't know. I think I'm also just like, I always look for the best in people. I think I'm just like too optimistic. I mean, I don't know. I don't know if it's it's always a good thing, but she's such a hater, truly. Balance each other out, maybe. But I don't know. Part of me believes her. I think I I've always been loved to hate her. I love to love to drink the hater. Anyway. I think I might not be uh I don't know if that's a popular opinion, but I don't know. Part of me, part of me thinks she's she's figured something out. That's that's my take. And I'm fair.

SPEAKER_00 55:57

Well, Josh definitely talked about feeling a little creeped out by her.

SPEAKER_03 56:01

Yeah. I'm creeped out by a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00 56:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 56:04

Both in the stock and out of the stock. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:07

Just generally creeped out.

SPEAKER_00 56:09

Everyone's crying all the time.

SPEAKER_02 56:11

Yeah, those repressed emotions just like seeping out of people randomly.

SPEAKER_00 56:15

And yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:16

For sure. During volleyball. During volleyball. I mean, volleyball gets everyone emotional.

SPEAKER_00 56:20

Yeah. Keith would like play volleyball and then like hold court. He'd like hold court. No card intended.

SPEAKER_06 56:27

On the court. He would like.

SPEAKER_00 56:28

And he looks, I mean, this is such a judgment, but he looked so goofy in his little volleyball outfit. Totally.

SPEAKER_06 56:34

And it was always the middle of the night. He's kind of a goofy looking guy.

SPEAKER_00 56:37

He's a very goofy looking guy.

SPEAKER_06 56:39

That's a judgment, too.

SPEAKER_00 56:41

Well, because he's obviously such a megalomaniac and he's kind of like diminutive and short and kind of like goofy a little. Goofy. A little goofy. And when he meets Allison Mac, it's a very uncomfortable scene to watch. Like it looks like right before two people like get together, kind of thing. And but she's also like crying as she's kind of always crying. She cries the most. The like content of the conversation is like, does art come from art or does art come from within us? And at that idea, she's like crying and I mean he wants her in. Oh, big time. Because she's a celebrity.

SPEAKER_06 57:20

Well, yeah, I don't think we've mentioned that yet. For people who don't know, because if you just mentioned that name, I don't think I would have known prior to the documentary or seeing it who this person was. So she's an actress.

SPEAKER_00 57:33

Yeah, she's not Jennifer Lawrence, but she is she was in Smallville.

SPEAKER_06 57:37

That was like her claim to fame, right?

SPEAKER_00 57:39

Yeah. The Superman TV show. Super popular show. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:43

There were a few other actors too that got involved in Nexium, like Nikki Klein and a couple other people from Yeah, Battlestar Galactica, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:51

So some celebs, I mean, like Scientology, they went after celebs. Yeah. According to the doc.

SPEAKER_02 57:57

It's part of getting people in, right? If this famous person, you know, definitely thinks this is the best thing, then right. It looks credible. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's they used credibility in their favor, right? I mean, if your like best friend or your partner or your family member said, like, hey, join me for this retreat, it changed my life. It's only five days of your life. Yeah. You know, chances are higher that you would attend if you have that. How close of a friend would it have to be for you to buy in to doing that with someone? I mean, well, with what I know now, I think I would be far more cautious. Right. Yeah. Pre, I don't know, cult interest. I don't know. I don't think it would have taken a lot for me to defend something like that. I'll give it a shot. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:38

And yeah, it probably depends on like what else is going on in your life.

SPEAKER_06 58:42

That's the thing. It's got to be that sweet spot, right? Where totally you feel a little bit lost or really lost. Yeah. You're having a lot of struggles, or you know, or you're young and you're moved to a new place.

SPEAKER_02 58:55

Well, yeah, because they capitalize on one's need for like a sense of belonging. Right. And when you haven't had that for so long and then you think you've found that in a group, it's sort of intoxicating. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:04

Yeah. There's an episode where they talk about Keith's like living arrangements. You know, he lives with like four women that ultimately are all like dating him to different degrees, and he's having sex with all of them. They're like both aware of it, and then some of them are less aware of it. Some of them are totally okay with anything he says, others are like a little bothered by it, and the other women will try to convince them it's okay. And you know, there's a consensual monogamy that does not appear to be what this is in terms of like how consensual any piece of it is. It's pretty bizarre. Yeah, a lot of secrecy, not a lot of respect. I mean, no respect for anyone's intuition but Keith's.

SPEAKER_06 59:56

It's the opposite of informed consent.

SPEAKER_00 59:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 59:58

Was there any part of it where People from the outside were wasn't Alison Mack's mom trying to get her out.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:04

That's Catherine Oxenberg, who was trying to get her daughter India out. That's what it was. Okay.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:09

So there were people trying to like really try to get yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:14

They're the ones I who I think who ultimately got him indicted.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:18

Yeah, it kind of kickstarted the process because they, I think, partnered with like the New York Times to put out an article. Okay. But it didn't get published until like the Me Too movement was really popular because it sort of fit a little bit along that narrative. And then I think it was after the article came out that like prosecutors, federal prosecutors got involved. And then I think that the conviction of Keith Rainier has been used as precedent for cases moving forward. Oh, really? Yeah. Which is hard. You know, sometimes coercive control is hard to define. And there's some issues in the courts trying to prosecute for that. Right. Yeah. Because it seems like these people are willing and signed up for it. And yet coercive control isn't consent or signing up for it. Right. Right. Wow. It's riveting the dock.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:03

And you know, like, I do think like a lot of it can look like therapy. And like, of course, we're not going to knock anyone for like self-improvement wanting to explore their own growth. Of course, that's great. And it's so so fascinating that that can be your intention for joining something like this. And it winds up in a secret society sex cult where you're calling someone master and they're calling you slave. I mean, it it's a wild, it's so the frog in boiling water. It's a great analogy because like there was one woman who I think she's like my favorite character in the whole doc, named Susan Downs, who they sued for like two million dollars. And she represented herself over like 10 years and she won over time. She had such a healthy center. And like when she started to have problems with the cult, she was like in the first group of people who had problems with it. And they went to talk to Keith, all these women. And he said something, and she said to the camera, She goes, I thought to myself, Oh my god, I'm in a cult. She was like the only one who like in the moment sitting with him was like, Oh my god, oh my god, yep, and realized it. And then she went through that horrible tenure process, and she like had to educate her judge, and she's like, You don't know who you're dealing with. Like, they will come after me and they will never stop, and they have lots of money behind them. And she represented herself because she wouldn't be able to afford lawyers for that many years. And she had such a like center. Like, she's like, I went through it, and even going through that, I learned about myself and I learned about my own strength, and I learned that I wasn't that person who, you know, that was a bad experience I had. And it was so moving to me. And she wasn't crying, she was the only one who wasn't sitting there sobbing. I was like, because she actually has emotional regulation and wisdom and like has learned and processed. I was like, I love this woman, like, good for her.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:58

It's okay to cry.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:59

It's okay to cry. Of course, it's okay to cry. I like cry about everything, but I think that like instability that like almost anything emotional that came up, all these people are just like not able to not cry, feels like they're getting really, really overtaken by feeling, by viscera, which they claim viscera to be like disavowing. Yeah. And they give names to things to help that's a method of control to rename like a language. Things that you know intuitively from your own experience, emotions, feelings. You know, it's like call it viscera, call it disintegrations, call it, you know, there's like control in that too.

Sex Trafficking, Legal Pressure, And Exit Costs

SPEAKER_06 1:03:40

I don't want to turn it political, but it just is like charismatic leader. Not that I feel like a leader, this leader particularly has charisma. Certain people do, though. Yeah, us versus them, loyalty, devotion, like oh, it definitely seems bad. Like it just feels like we'll do whatever you say. We'll remove people from their homes, we'll deport anybody. Doesn't really matter because there's nothing's gonna happen anyway. Right. Right? So it just feels very like totally resonant in terms of just political stuff.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:16

Because when people say that Trump is charismatic, I'm always like cross-eyed, like Oh, I was talking about somebody else.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:22

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:24

But I almost they must be using that term, like if charisma like with Keith almost means like they have this like intense energy that is galvanizing. It's not like they're like Brad Pitt, and you're like, ooh, right, or even well spoken. Right. You know, Keith Rainier well spoken.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:43

I mean, could I guess be considered that comparatively to Trump?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:47

Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:48

I think what's charismatic or what people view is like just the complete disregard and the idea of like, well, somebody's finally saying it, or you know, what we're all thinking. And it's like, well, there's a reason you shouldn't be saying it because it's wrong. Like it's just flat out wrong. But it's like that doesn't necessarily make somebody charismatic, but I think people view that as charisma.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:11

Yeah. Yeah. It's just wild to me that anybody would think one person is like a hundred percent correct all of the time. All the time. Like we need to hold the nuance and the dialectic, right? That like any person has you know positive and negative qualities or makes healthy and unhealthy.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:27

And not just that, but be devoted when that person makes mistakes and not being able to even challenge that. And like, nope, because this person, no matter what they're doing, sure, we'll buy another country, or we'll just take it over. Right. It's like the call is coming from inside the cult.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:44

We might need to question that a little bit, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:47

And do you guys think it's that people like think this person has all the answers, or almost like they just so badly like want them to? That's a good point. I wonder. Yeah. Cause like I've definitely had it's probably both. It's probably both. I've like feel like I've had it's not not everyone I work with, but like over the years, like there definitely are clients who are more just desperate for like just give me the rule book. Yeah, you know, tell me how to be. It's hard to like visit my wise mind and like go within myself. And then other clients who it's more natural and whatever, but it's interesting.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:25

Like I mean, we don't like to sit in nuance. Yeah, we like it to be one way or the other, and like accessing your wise mind is sort of sitting in the nuance, right? It's hard. Totally.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:36

It is, and you there is no like certainty in it.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:40

There's no, you know, for us as therapists, that is very rich ground for somebody to sit into. I'm I one, I don't have the answer, but two, I'm not, I even if I did, I don't think I would give it to you, right? It's kind of like whereas Keith Rainier is probably like, oh, I have it. Of course I have it, no matter what, even though he knows he doesn't.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:01

So I think if they're desperate for an answer, right. And they're desperate that maybe I finally found somebody who hasn't, who always has the answer, you know, and that can be intoxicating or charismatic. Yeah. Sort of sounds nice. He makes it sound like scientific or like there is like something behind it.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:19

I mean, it sort of sounds nice to have a leader that you could a hundred percent rely on. Yeah. I don't know if I've ever felt that towards any politician, but I don't know. It seems very comforting and safe. So it sort of makes sense. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:31

I mean, it's yeah, it's like it's like a god or like religiosity can be this. Right. I mean, was the wise mind happy hour? The core of what we do is helping people to contact that inner voice. Like, what do you notice? Because, you know, with EMDR, there's a lot of similarities to that. EMing. I really was like, oh wow, like the way they described, like a few times doing it, you can feel totally different about something. There's a lot of that with EMDR, but the whole premise of EMDR is like, how is a past trauma affecting you now? What do you believe about yourself? Can you use your own wise mind, which you access through the bilateral stimulation to yourself make inferences, notice new things in your present day that are no longer true and like transcend a past experience. But really, it is centered in the client, especially in EMDR. Like you never make an interpretation for them, almost to a painful degree for a therapist who's done a lot of other types of therapy. There's no interpreting, there's just what do you notice? Teaching them the noticing of their own experience. What sounds resonant for you? This positive belief you mentioned earlier, does it still fit? Does something fit better? They tell you. So in that way, it's very different. And it isn't really magic. It's helping them access their wise mind. Yeah. Their own wise mind, not my wise mind, theirs.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:08

EMDR and EM. They even share letters.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:12

It's it's a little freaky. I mean, the first time I was doing EMDR, I was like, or even experience it myself, I was like, it is a little freaky and helpful, you know, and a great tool in the toolbox. But it's like there is a thread between all the therapies we all do, which really is like your center, like letting that guide you. You know, we don't call it viscera, but it's like feeling your feelings, honoring them, not letting them decide everything in your life.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:42

It's like data that informs you but doesn't control you.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:45

Totally. And sometimes, like like Nippy says in that one episode of the doc, he's like, if a bus is coming toward you, you listen to the fear and you run, you know, and there's a million situations where the fear doesn't match the moment and you do want to expand around it, you know, or they would call it, think of it as viscera, but they go to the extreme.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:07

And in those situations, you listen to the data and decide like, is this helpful for me or not, rather than just immediately disregard it.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:13

Regardless of the context or the situation. Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:16

In one of the like lectures on the difference between the genders, I don't know if you remember those episodes. Oh my God. He at the very end of season one, he talks about like women are just like princesses who are entitled, and men are This is Keith Renier saying this. Okay. And men are protectors and like, you know, all these like complete insane stereotypes that don't like I have a lot of like masculinity in me, you have femininity in you. I like to think like we both are like if you think of the Freudian like anima, animus, like integrated. Like, I don't feel like the world's most feminine woman.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:50

When he says men are oofs, that that resonates.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:53

Oofs. I was like, probably oofs. Do any of us relate? Like, I just like that word.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:59

Yeah. Oofs.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:00

And there's like women that are oofs.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:02

There's like it's like men that are princesses.

Therapy vs Cults: Wise Mind And EMDR

SPEAKER_00 1:11:05

Right, right. But yeah, it's like, what why did I bring this up? I don't know. Oh, oh. And I'm and he's telling this group of women, like, you're princesses, you're entitled. When men look at you, they see like a bunch of little kindergartners. He said that. Like as women. And I'm like looking at the women and they're just nodding. Yeah. Oh, this is how I can know that I actually wouldn't go this far into a cult. Because I there's no world in which I'd sit there and not be like, actually, I disagree. Let me present some other things to you. Nobody does that, which it's discouraged. And maybe those people get phased out.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:42

Yeah, that's the other thing is like who gets phased out and right. Yeah. It's only yes people in the room at that point.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:47

Because I would just be like, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:49

You know, like how many people did at some point just kind of like walk before they got in too deep.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:54

Well, that other smallville actress. They question their like, why did she leave? And I think she was like pushed towards some things and she was like, I'm out. I'm out. Listen to her wise and didn't really whistleblow, but left. I mean, it's fascinating. We could go on about it forever, but it's so like a train wreck.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:12

Like you can't take your eyes away from it. Like it's just like so difficult to watch, but so like mesmerizing. Yeah. Which is a terrible word to use because there's just so much just pain and abuse in it as horrifying. But it just had me captivated, I remember, the first time.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:29

It sort of like teaches me something about humanity and myself a little bit though. Like I definitely see myself like in some of the people at times. And I think that's been an interesting way to try to like relate to it more more than just like consume it as a form of media, but actually like, I don't know, relate to the people in it and like kind of think through like how that would feel to experience it or 100%.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:51

And I think also too the idea of like how much power people can hold over other people. And and it made me think of too that like Stanford prison experiment where it's like they use that a bunch in this. It's just like, you know, the pushing people to a limit and and not questioning authority, and like people can really use their whatever it is, charisma, power, manipulation to just do such heinous things. Like one person can do that too, just one other person, but just on a larger scale. It's just so like humans are powerful beings, and you can't you have to respect that and be powerful of that, or mindful of that.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:35

You know, I don't know. Totally, yeah. But maybe we'll kind of pin our and maybe we'll do there's a bunch of cult talks, and they all have interesting kind of like implications for therapy or ideas because they all really start with self-help. Some of them are a little more like religion-y, like Heavenscape, Jonestown, I think it was much more religion-y, yeah, even Wild Wild Country. Wild Wild Country for sure.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:00

Uh David Koresh, what was that one?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:02

David Kerr, the Waco Texas. The Waco, Texas. What was that? What was the cult?

SPEAKER_06 1:14:06

I can't remember the name of that cult. Yeah, let's look. I was a kid when that was happening, and I had no idea what was happening. I just remember that being everywhere, all over the news, as it should have been, and just being like, what is going on here? Yeah. This guy thinks he's Jesus, and like, nope, but nobody's telling me. I was too young. What year did that happen? Like 90.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:26

That happened in um 1993.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:29

93. So I was 11.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:31

The Dividians, the the branch Davidians. The branch Davidians. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:34

So I was like 11 years old when that was happening, and I was like, what is going on here?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:38

Like this man says he's Jesus, or the second coming of Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:43

Claim to be its final prophet.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:44

And same thing. He had women, he had families there, he was he had multiple women that yeah, like sex screen. He was, yeah, exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:53

Wow. And there is one I haven't watched um with the female leader.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:59

Oh, is that the Teal Swan tacos?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:01

No, I do wanna you had mentioned that. I do want to watch that. I'm thinking of the uh mother god. Oh, that one is wild.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:09

It's called Mother God. Mother God. That one is one of the most wild docs I've ever seen. What format or platform?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:16

I think it's a HBO. I mean you're gonna have to come over and watch it. Yeah, I'm gonna give you the password.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:21

That one's a binge-worthy one. I think it's like three episodes. Really? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:25

Yeah. Silver nitrate. Oh my god, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:28

Yeah. Collidal silver. Coldal silver. That's what it means. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:33

That one's pretty well.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:35

That one, there's some substance use involved.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:37

Do you ever get to a point? Because I don't think I would ever get to a point where I'd be like, you know what, I've seen enough documentaries on that subject.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:43

No. Never. I wouldn't.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:44

I'm constantly like searching for new ones. I'm like, when's the next one coming up?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:48

There's one, I don't know, it was small, a small cult um out of Sarah Lawrence College.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:53

You I remember you mentioning that one.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:55

Yeah, that one I read about, and that one was very disturbing. They're all pretty disturbing.

SPEAKER_06 1:16:01

Well, yeah, you gotta approach with caution for our listeners. Yeah. Definitely, you know, just content learning.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:09

Yeah, content-wise. And go watch it if you haven't seen it. It's interesting. It's fascinating. Right in. Um, and it'll also arm you with the ability to hopefully be able to tell if you're being approached by a cult.

SPEAKER_06 1:16:22

Be mindful of those red flags, be mindful of some of those things.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:26

So we'll transition into our how wise is it.

SPEAKER_06 1:16:29

How wise is it question, which comes from the field. This is like front lines of the field. So, how wise is it to read a book at a major sporting event?

SPEAKER_07 1:16:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:16:40

So this comes from I went, I mentioned I went to the Bulls game. Now, let me set the scene here. So the Bulls game was at six o'clock on Sunday night. The Bears are in the playoffs and they're playing at 5:30. Whoa. So I'm going into the Bulls game imagining, oh, this will be great. There's not going to be a lot of people here. I wasn't interested in watching the Bears game. I'm a Packers fan. Oh, that's right. That's right. Huge review. So I take the fam, we go, and every other person that's in there has their phone up and they're streaming the Bears game on their phone.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:16

Oh my god. That is incredible.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:19

Which I didn't bat an eye at. I was like, well, they're at a sporting event.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:22

That's Poseidon.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:24

They're watching another sporting event. So we sit down and there's these two guys. One of them, every people are just in full Bears regalia at this Bulls game. Right. Oh, okay. This guy's got the bear hat on inside. He's got the jersey. And he's sitting next to one of his friends, and they're, you know, they're both watching the game. And I'm like, man, everybody's doing this. And Sarah goes, Well, what do you think about what she's doing? And I was like, Well, what? And I look over and Sarah's like, she's reading a book. And so she's sitting next to these two guys who she knew because she was like talking to them, but she had the book open. Physical book on her lap, reading. She's a hero. Yeah. My idol, my icon. Sarah was like, you know, if I got dragged here by those two knuckleheads, I'd probably be reading a book too.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:10

I'd bring out like who knows crime and punishment.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:13

She could have been dating one of them. She could have been a sibling. They could have all been siblings. I don't know. They were they looked all to be in the same range, but it just kind of struck me as yeah, how wise is it? So I'm curious. I mean, I experienced it firsthand there, but what do you all think? How wise is it? I don't know. I think it's pretty wise.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:28

I feel like that's a subject. Like somebody who knows themselves. Like, yeah. I don't know. I also got gifted this like 800-page novel for Christmas. I didn't realize it was that long until I like opened it up and I was like, Whoa, what is it? Heavy. It's called Bastion.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:43

Um, it's sort of like a I don't know how to describe it. Like a hero kind of like faces all these challenges and gets like stronger and stronger. But anyway, I have to like read this 800-page book. So I'm I'm gonna bring it everywhere. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:55

Yeah, if you get forced into a sporting event that you don't really care about. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:59

So so your partner says, I really want to go to this thing with you. And you're and you're like, sure. Do you tell him before, do you tell Luis before that you're bringing the book and then you just pop it out? And does he then does he then say, Well, you know what, James? Actually, if you're gonna read, like I I don't want you to come because I kind of want to like enjoy the sporting event with you.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:22

Yeah. See, there's there's context there. Yeah, that changes things. I I don't think I'd bring the book in that case. In that case. If it was like, I want you to like watch this with me and we can like talk about it and watch it together. But if it's like this is my hundredth game and you know I don't like it, but you just want me to be there, got it. Yeah, then I would read my book. So if Kelly and I drade you to the Bulls game. Yeah. I would watch the game. I wouldn't read a book.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:44

We're both watching the Bears game on our phones and James is reading.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:47

I'm the only one watching the sporting event, and you two are streaming the Valve second episode on your phone.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:53

Oh, yeah. Exactly.

Power, Charisma, And Gender Lectures

SPEAKER_02 1:19:55

I mean, I don't love sports, but if I'm like at a live sporting event, because it's not something I do often. I'll watch. Yeah. But like it also depends on the sport. Like if it's like basketball or hockey, there's like constant action. Yeah. You don't really need any stimulation outside of that. That's true. But like a Bears game or a football game, it's like, oh, gotta wait 10 seconds for them to reset. You know, like but they're just standing around the entire game.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:16

And do you feel like with all of the sensory experiences going on that you could pay attention to your book? Ooh. Maybe. Okay. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:24

You'd have to be a real Jedi.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:26

That's fair. What do you I mean, what do you think? I know what you think. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:31

I think it's like I admire it so much if I see someone doing it. Yeah. I don't know that it would be wise for me. Okay. I think in that case, I probably should just like sit that game out. Okay. Now, if I'm like a mom of a couple kids and they really want to go. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:49

I think that's a little different.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:50

And there's no chance this woman was their mom.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:53

I don't believe that this was their mom.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:56

They're very youthful teen mom.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:58

There is something to be said about, right, like I'll be there with you and I'm gonna do my own thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:04

Maybe emotionally.

SPEAKER_06 1:21:05

But why did I think it was why it's interesting because those guys were not paying attention either. Yeah. And they were there.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:12

That's wild.

SPEAKER_06 1:21:14

It's interesting that they were both not paying attention, but it struck me so much more like interesting that she was reading a book.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:21:21

Because those guys were just on their phones.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:21:23

And the most cheers at that entire Bulls game came when they would put the Rams logo on the scoreboard for when the other team was shooting free throws because everybody was booing. So that was how they got people involved in the Bulls game was because people were so invested in the Bears game that was going on.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:42

Oh my God. Wow.

SPEAKER_06 1:21:43

It's like a loudest cheers were when they showed like they flashed the score and the Bears were winning at one point and things like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:49

But Wow. Did the Bears win?

SPEAKER_06 1:21:51

They ended up losing. Did the Bulls win? In overtime. The Bulls had a great game.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:55

No one would have known.

SPEAKER_06 1:21:57

At one point they were in the third quarter shooting like 60% from three-point range.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:02

Oh, I feel bad for the players because they were great. I mean, then looking around, everyone's on their phone, and one woman has a novel out. I was cheering.

SPEAKER_06 1:22:08

Even Benny the Bull was in a bears sweater.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:10

But they knew you were a Bucks fan. They could tell.

SPEAKER_06 1:22:14

No, I cheer for the bulls. I wear bowl stuff when I go to the games. Okay. Yeah. When we all have bowls gear, we we get it out and we'll get it. That's your Chicago team. Bulls for the socks, too.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:22

The socks.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:22

Okay. There is something though about like going to an event and just like being there to socialize or hang out rather than like actually watching the event. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:22:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:30

It happened to me at a concert last year. That's like a group of kids were like talking during the music. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, this is weird. Like, go farther away if you want to have a full conversation while this like guy's bearing his soul on stage.

SPEAKER_06 1:22:43

Right. Well, it also made me think about is it wise or how wise is it because and again, context plays such a role and it's so important, but is this person going in just kind of closing them off to like an experience that they might have a different kind of experience at? Now, granted, if they're a seasoned ticket holder, yeah, and they're like, Great, there's 82 of these that I gotta come to or whatever, okay, sure, you're gonna bring a book sometimes. Totally. Um, but we, you know, when we were talking about like romanticizing or whatever, not that you're gonna make the Bulls game romantic, but like, could I really care in this moment about like being here?

SPEAKER_00 1:23:19

Yeah. Yeah. Does it change anything for you guys if she just so happens to be reading one of those books that you like can't stop thinking about? Art the lover. I mean, you know, like a real page turner.

SPEAKER_06 1:23:34

Yeah, I would have a lot more buy-in there. Like if I Because there are books that I read that I'm like, I am counting down the minutes until work ends. And I can get back home. So I can get back home. Or like I'm counting down the minutes until it's like, when are my kids? When can we put my kids to bed? Because I want to like get back to it. So I I can definitely see if she's reading something or whoever's reading something, and I see the cover, and I'm like, oh, that makes a lot more sense.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:56

Yeah. With those books, sometimes though I'm like, I want to stretch them out. So I'm almost like, ooh, I want to wait, even though it's so hard because it's like rare that you're that like pulled into it story.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:05

Totally. I mean, you know what's funny? Um, this is making me think of something you said, Josh. Because I like dread the idea of having a kid one day that like wants to play baseball, baseball specifically, and I have to like go and sit on the bleachers and like oh, I dodge the bullet with that.

SPEAKER_06 1:24:21

My kids do not like your lucky baseball. I'm so lucky.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:24

Well, when we, God bless, have a kid. I'm gonna have your kids brainwash them out of not wanting to play baseball. Yeah, just em them. I like think about it when I drive past fields with like the parents sitting there. I'm like, that is like the circle of hell for me. And Josh is like, I I could take them. Maybe I could even picture myself, and you said like sitting in the bleachers writing poetry, writing a little poultry.

SPEAKER_06 1:24:48

Poultry, little haiku is about our child playing baseball.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:52

Well, my child swings the bat. Yeah, swinging to miss next time.

SPEAKER_07 1:25:00

Perfect.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:01

You already came over.

SPEAKER_07 1:25:02

A little haiku.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:03

Yeah, a little haiku. But I thought that was cute. I was like, neither of us would sit be sitting there like coaching from the sidelines or even be all that engaged. Yeah, I can't picture it.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:11

I remember when I was a kid, there's this one dad on the on it was on my team. One of the dads or one of the other kids on my team was like, you don't taunt the other players, you don't taunt the other players on the other team.

SPEAKER_05 1:25:21

That's hilarious.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:22

I was like, I feel like you're taunting me. Taunt. Stop using that word.

SPEAKER_06 1:25:27

Stop saying that.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:28

Every time I see a parent that's like overly invested in their kids' sports, like I really feel that you're chewing up to them and be like, this is all pretend. Like, are you aware? These are children. None of this matters. Like, knock it off. It's for fun.

SPEAKER_06 1:25:40

It's gonna be a rude awakening, I think, for you a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:43

Why?

SPEAKER_06 1:25:44

Like, when I grew up playing sports, you were a seasonal athlete. So it was like whatever the season was that dictated what you played. Yeah. These kids now are in hitting, pitching classes all year because honestly, some of these parents think it's like this kid's gonna play in the major leagues. Like, this is how you get them a scholarship, this is how you get them better. That is so much more apparent now than it was where it was just like I did it to be social, to have friends. Of course, I liked it, but like it was like when the season's over, it's over, right? But you'll I think you're gonna be surprised.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:17

You think I'm gonna be bought in?

SPEAKER_06 1:26:18

No, I think you're gonna be surprised by how many parents take it that seriously. Yeah, I'm probably gonna think because I think a lot of parents do, and I think a lot of parents really see it as a vehicle for them to progress in something, other than just like their learning teamwork, and you know, I do think a lot of parents view it that way. Right. But that's just been my experience because I was surprised by that. I was like, man, we're really taking this seriously pretty young here, you know. Um boy. I know, but anyway, I do think it's getting back to the book though. I think if everybody's on board, like maybe they were just happy to have her. Maybe she never goes. Right. Maybe this was like the introduction to it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:58

And they were like, you know, we just want you there, bring the book. Yeah, why not? She wants to go to the dinner spot after. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_06 1:27:04

Or come to yeah, she wanted she did the dinner. Yeah. We went to her place that she wanted to go, you know, whatever. I think that's pretty wise.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:10

Like I think do what you want. Do what you want. And if the players have an issue with it, they're getting paid millions of dollars.

SPEAKER_06 1:27:16

You said there's a famous like picture or moment of Sarah Jessica Parker at a Yankees game.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:21

I believe she's at a Yankees game with a book. Okay. What's the book? I should look up the picture because You should look up the picture. It's kind of a funny picture.

SPEAKER_06 1:27:28

It has a different ring to it though.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:30

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_06 1:27:31

It's like a meme. Rich. Yeah. So the rules don't apply. And it's kind of like, well, what are you doing? Why what? You could be seen anywhere. Why are you is she in like a because this person that was reading was not in any bulls anything. Was she like in a Yankees hat? Tell me.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:50

That's the pick. That's great.

SPEAKER_06 1:27:54

I'm having so much fun reading this book.

Why Smart People Join And Who Resists

SPEAKER_00 1:27:56

Yeah, what's the book? Reading at a Rangers game. And so it's a hockey game. Oh my god! Look who's beneath her.

SPEAKER_06 1:28:04

It is Tom Hanks and Chet.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:08

Our favorite. Chet Hanks Tom Hanks.

SPEAKER_06 1:28:11

You know you can't be bothered when you're reading a book and you don't even want to talk to Tom Hanks.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:15

Yeah, that's privilege.

SPEAKER_06 1:28:16

Unfaved.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:16

It's a flex.

SPEAKER_06 1:28:17

What if you, okay, because we get some music lovers in the room. What if you go to a concert that is a little bit maybe middle of the road where people kind of like sit down in parts of it and somebody's reading?

SPEAKER_02 1:28:27

I feel like we've seen that. I'm gonna write this down. If they had a light on, I would be back. I'm gonna write this down. A book light. So if it's like dark and concerts are normally dark, so that would be pretty wild. What if they were just on their phone and you they run the Kindle app? Yeah, that's fine. If they're sitting down, I'll stand up.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:43

We went to a concert where someone like camped out in the front and then they were watching like the vampire diaries on their phone. Waiting for the show to start? Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:28:50

Not during the show.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:52

No, waiting for it, and maybe for the openers. Okay. Like both openers.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:55

Oh, Alt Jay?

SPEAKER_00 1:28:56

No, it wasn't Alt Jay.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:58

Waxahatchie?

SPEAKER_00 1:28:59

Yeah, it might have been Waxa Hatchie or something like that.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:02

She's got a real vampire fan base.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:05

Huge. I was kind of like, do you, but you do you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:09

I think that's my whole takeaway of the whole thing. Yeah. And if you're bothering your partner, don't do you. Don't do you. Respect your partner. Wow, you really simplified that nicely. Yeah. But if you're going to a hundred games and your dad's making you and you're not that into sports and you want to bring in Nintendo Power magazine, please just fucking do it. And when he gives you shit and you have trauma years later, you go to therapy. You just go to therapy.

unknown 1:29:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:34

Perfect.

SPEAKER_06 1:29:36

Just don't spring the book on someone. Yeah. Maybe give them a heads up.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:39

But it also could be funny.

SPEAKER_06 1:29:40

It could be funny.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:41

If he's bringing the book.

SPEAKER_06 1:29:42

It could be funny. I just never in all my years going to sporting events. I've never seen somebody reading a book.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:48

That's pretty good.

SPEAKER_06 1:29:49

It was just interesting.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:50

Yeah. Could be a social experiment, too. Like what are people around me going to think of this?

SPEAKER_06 1:29:56

Well, obviously, we dedicated some of this podcast.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:59

Yeah, it worked on us.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:01

If that was you in section 231 at the Bulls game, reach out. Reach out to us. We want to know what you were thinking. Okay, well, we solved it for the most part.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:09

As always. Yeah. Okay, so James, tell us where people can find you or if there's anything you want to plug.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:17

Yeah, well, if people want to reach out, you can email me at james.j.heruska H R U S K A at Gmail.com.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:26

Okay, you're gonna get maybe a flood of cult questions. Amazing. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:29

I'm here for it. Okay.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:30

And then we'll do a follow-up episode.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:32

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:33

Well, this is so great having you. Yeah. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:36

It was so fun. I felt like we were back in the office.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:38

Reliving that. So fun. The good old days.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:41

And this is about how much work we did. So it was perfect.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:44

It's definitely about how much work I did.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:47

Email me with your questions. How wise is it? Let me know how we're doing. Uh if there's any other cults that we should be looking into that maybe we don't know about, or even any book recks that we could bring to our next game. Uh butts but jonathan at gmail.com.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:03

Okay. And yeah, you can reach me at kkpsychsotherapy.com. Yeah, if you have thoughts on other cults, if you're starting a cult. If you need a member. If you need a founder. No, I'm just kidding. Um, if you want to work with me, if you have suggestions for the pod, anything really, you can uh yeah, find me at kkpsychotherapy.com on the inquiry page. And last but not least, Joshy Boy.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:31

JoshBayerfilms.com. Bayer is in the aspirin. I will edit anything you want, and I will not join a cult. Love it.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:40

Or indoctrinate you into a cult. Exactly. Okay, thanks everyone.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:44

Thank you so much. Thank you, blanketforts, for the music.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:47

Yeah, blanket forts for the music. Bye. Bye. The Wisemind Happy Hour podcast is for entertainment purposes only, not to be treated as medical advice. If you are struggling with your mental health, please seek medical attention or counseling.