The Wise Mind Happy Hour

how wise is it to TAKE 5? (during partnered conflict)

• Kelly Kilgallon & Jon Butz

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We all love the Take 5 candy bar (unless we have a peanut allergy). But what about being allergic to sitting in the uncertainty of how our partner feels about us? Sometimes, when the tension is rising (whether it's over money, in-laws or the thermostat) it can be incredibly helpful to "TAKE 5" (we'll explain.) So set a timer for 5 minutes (or 62 minutes) and get ready to immerse yourself in self energy...sometimes that's the best conflict resolution strategy of all.

Producer Steps In, Quick Check-In

SPEAKER_03

Welcome to the Wise Mind Happy Hour. I'm Kelly.

SPEAKER_02

And I'm Josh Bayer.

SPEAKER_03

We have Josh Bayer on the mic here today, our producer. So John is not here tonight. He's taking care of himself, taking care of his body. He got a little virus. So we're wishing him all the best. And yeah, Josh is here with me today to fill in. How does it feel?

SPEAKER_02

You know, I'm a husband. I get a I was we were just talking about this pre-pod. I'm getting a little bit of my OCD of like not, am I gonna not know what things to say?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Like when I go to a party, I'm like, am I gonna not know things to say? And then I go and I like do a bunch of taco.

SPEAKER_03

Because this is sort of a party.

SPEAKER_02

This is a party for us. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

It's a husband and wife recording in their home. It's so cute.

SPEAKER_02

Husband-wife party. Anyone want to come to our husband-wife party?

SPEAKER_03

Husband-wife party.

SPEAKER_02

I'm the wife.

SPEAKER_03

But I um I so appreciate you jumping in and and taking over. And it can be so fun every once in a while to do an episode with you, even though we love, love, love, love, love doing episodes with John, of course. And that's our main hang. It is nice sometimes for us to just check in on the mic.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

So thank you for being on with me.

SPEAKER_02

It's my sincerest and greatest pleasure.

SPEAKER_03

Okay. And I'll I'll be the captain of the pod because I know sometimes your anxiety doesn't want to be the leader, and that's fair. And I'm fully capable. Totally. You are. But you're really good at it.

unknown

Thanks.

Kitchen Creativity And New Recipes

SPEAKER_03

To use judgment. Thanks. It's a judgment, and I'll take it. Um okay, so yeah, today we figured we would check in first, like we normally do, and yeah, just like talk about what's been going on lately. And one thing that I've been meaning to mention on the pod week after week and and kind of keep forgetting is that intention that I set in the new year to be more creative in the kitchen, I do feel like I've been living up to, which is really exciting. And I wanted to mention some of the things I've been cooking and Josh and I have been having. I was gonna say we've been cooking together, but I we haven't really I've been cleaning by myself, and you've been cooking by yourself.

unknown

Totally, totally.

SPEAKER_03

We live a lonely totally okay.

SPEAKER_02

It's fine.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah. No, it's great. I mean, I think we both well, this will come later because we'll we're gonna talk in this episode about our relationship and some like problem solving, well, some like conflict management we've done lately. New stuff we've been trying, which has been helping and working and fun to do.

SPEAKER_01

Um a princess is fun to do. Josh is singing a princess hit song from childhood. Good to do.

SPEAKER_02

Or did I reverse it?

SPEAKER_03

I I wasn't there originally.

SPEAKER_02

My sister had a uh shout out, Alex Bear. Um, had a short film entitled Runaway Princess. I think it was a rough uh spin-off, or at least uh homage to the runaway bride starring uh Richard Garrett Julia Robert. That's so fun. Uh, you know, my sister would watch that on VHS. So she was she runs away princess with her friend Jamie Lesson. My brother Zach plays the evil stepmom, and she says certain uh gum drops, such as, I swallowed a chip without chewing it. Like because she's being mischievous. That's great. And then the real catchphrase is the the uh kickoff lead song, uh, a princess. It's a princess is going into this. A princess is good to do.

SPEAKER_03

Okay, great. Well, y'all can can look that up in the archives of YouTube if it's out there.

SPEAKER_02

We gotta digitize it.

SPEAKER_03

Okay, yeah, maybe we will. Maybe we will, but we'll um we will talk about um yeah, like that conflict management. And what one thing that we did that did come up for us in that is like maybe us, we're one of those couples that like we probably could afford to spend a little more time apart sometimes. We do a lot together and we both work from home. We're really in each other's grill.

SPEAKER_02

So this pot is a great, great way for us to get some space. Finally get some space.

SPEAKER_03

We're recording a podcast together now, but yeah, I um yeah, well, we'll talk about that in a bit. This this doesn't count. This is an emergency pot. We're not really talking yet, but yeah, so we we have been cooking some new things. One thing that I recently made are cottage cheese pancakes, which I thought were so good. What did you think?

SPEAKER_02

I can't stop thinking about them.

SPEAKER_03

Really?

SPEAKER_02

They were meaty, lumpy like a crab cake, they were chewy like a cake. You lather them in syrup, you put them in your mouth.

SPEAKER_03

Okay. The texture is dense. Okay.

SPEAKER_02

I'm really, you know, trying to describe the picture.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. I'm panning. But let's let's just talk about the the cottage cheese pancakes themselves. They're basically like kind of like a regular pancake with Greek yogurt and cottage cheese. And that way they're oh, and there's also baking powder in them, which kind of makes them rise a little bit. And they're yeah, they're pretty meaty, they're pretty fluffy. And you actually have to, they're kind of like interesting to make because you have to put like a once you flip them twice, you have to put a little water in the pan and cover them and kind of steam the inside because they're so thick and fluffy that the inside can be raw if you don't do that step. But I I think they were pretty delish and like filling.

SPEAKER_02

Oh yeah. I was just eating them all day, kept like being full, and then I'd be hungry again.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, and yeah, later in the day when we had some as a snack, I made a little maple butter to put on them, and that was the move, I think. That was nice. That was nice.

SPEAKER_02

I was a little sad when you made that. I was getting a little bit of the Sunday scaries, and I was like, oh, I feel bad, like kind of like quelling my bad mood with this like delicious maple butter. It was like, am I eating my feelings?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, well, that's always like a question for everyone. Like because I work with eating disorders and intuitive eating, like people can feel bad about quote, coping with food, but in intuitive eating, there's kind of no such thing. You know, you if you obey your hunger and fullness cues all the time, there isn't really no emotional eating that happens, like research shows. It's an interesting thought, but I know what you mean. I've definitely had that thought and that feeling of like, am I just like eating my feelings?

SPEAKER_02

So was I having a disordered thought there?

SPEAKER_03

Well, we don't have to label it that way, but I mean, I think you and like most of the world thinks like that, you know, and in intuitive eating, you don't really think of it as coping with food. It's like if you have the interest and urge to eat, you you honor that. And once you honor that on a regular basis and your body has a sense of like safety, it it doesn't have the urges to eat when not hungry.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. I think my body feels a lot of safety in the kitchen.

SPEAKER_03

Totally same. I think so too. Yeah, what do you make of that?

SPEAKER_02

You were just like saying the other day, like, I don't really want to toot our horn, but I feel like we're like very good at eating the amount that we want to eat at at parties.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Well, no, I I think I think you and I are both like honest about our hunger level. We're not the people who order like a small dish and then are like eating off everyone else's plate the whole time. Like we we we are able to really notice, like, oh, if I'm really hungry, I'm gonna order enough food and what I want. I think we eat pretty intuitively, yeah. Which I think is great.

SPEAKER_02

But if you add OCD into the equation, you're gonna be concerned about taking more than like let's say we're with with like five people. Yeah, I'm like eyeing it the whole time and watching the pie chart go down, and I'm like, okay, I've taken my one-fifth. Yeah, but I'm still hungry. But no one else is taking more stuff. But I look over at my stepbrother Andrew and I'm like, he's still stepbrothers.

SPEAKER_01

Oh stepbrothers. Suddenly they're step-stepbrothers. Don't kiss, they hug.

SPEAKER_02

No, Andrew's my brother-in-law. Yeah. David Freed is my stepbrother. Shout out, David Freed. You might be hungry. You might be hungry right now. Yeah. Who knows what you're thinking? Right. Maybe you're thirsty.

SPEAKER_03

No, but I do that calculation too. Like, group dinners are like a minefield because if you go to them really hungry, you're kind of fucked.

SPEAKER_02

But if you go to them really full, you're also fucked.

SPEAKER_03

Well, because it's gotta eat to like join in the festivities. Yeah, they can be a challenging. Like, what's the perfect level of hunger?

SPEAKER_02

High. I think it's medium, medium rare.

SPEAKER_03

Medium rare. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Well, it's so fun to go to a dinner hungry.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, I never set the alarm.

SPEAKER_02

Set it for 20, too.

SPEAKER_03

We're setting a little timer to keep ourselves accountable.

SPEAKER_02

Jish has got a busy week.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

He's gotta edit the pod.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And by the time this is airing, um, it will be known that we are have surprised my mom in New York City for her 65th birthday.

SPEAKER_03

Right. Oh my gosh. We we were thinking we can't talk about this, but we can. So tell everyone what we're doing.

SPEAKER_02

We're surprising my mom. Okay. She already turned 65. So Kelly and I drove to Michigan two weeks ago to not to surprise her, to celebrate her birthday with her in Michigan on the actual birthday weekend. My sister, Alex, princess is fun to do, uh, lives in New York City. So we are meeting in New York City. My mom thinks she is going to New York just to be with my sister to celebrate her birthday with her. And your stepbrother. And my stepbrother Andrew. And my step.

SPEAKER_03

And her husband Andrew, Josh's brother-in-law, my brother-in-law. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And yeah, it's going to be a surprise. It's also going to be very cold.

Intuitive Eating And Group Dinner Dynamics

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I'm noticing a feeling a lot of anxiety about the cold. As of right now, when when Friday is the first full day, we're really going to be there. And it's it's forecasting four degrees. And if those of you who've been to New York City know you're walking, you're subwaying. It's a really tough place to visit when it's cold. So I am nervous. Trying to like not be too nervous, but I get really, really cold. And I have something called Reynode Syndrome where like my fingers and toes get really like white and lose like circulation in the cold. So I'm like nervous about it, to be honest.

SPEAKER_02

I'm nervous too.

SPEAKER_03

You're nervous that I'm gonna freak out.

SPEAKER_02

I'm nervous that you're gonna be so cold.

SPEAKER_03

Not nervous that you're gonna be cold, nervous that I'm gonna go I'm nervous.

SPEAKER_02

I'm gonna have a cold wife.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, a frozen popsicle of a wife.

SPEAKER_02

A frigid wife.

unknown

Totally.

SPEAKER_02

Well, that's all you have your sight on. You have your sight set on heated socks.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02

Which we may not be able to get before the the surprise.

SPEAKER_03

Well, and the other thing is those heated gloves, they are already out of battery. So I should I will charge them, but it worried me how quickly it seems that they did run out of batteries. Like that's not three whole days in New York's worth of battery that I used this last time.

SPEAKER_02

Can we charge them in New York?

SPEAKER_03

Oh, that's a great question. Okay, that's good thinking. I I think I'll bring it. The answer is yes. I'll bring the supplies to charge them.

SPEAKER_02

Bring the heat.

SPEAKER_03

I'll bring the heat. But I uh and I gotta figure out if I can pack those things. But anyway, not not interesting for the pod.

SPEAKER_02

But yeah, so you're checking a bag? I'm gonna be I'm gonna be John Butts because he's not here. So you know you know my next question. You checking a bag?

SPEAKER_03

I am checking a bag. I think. Oh no, maybe I didn't decide that yet.

SPEAKER_02

Well, you better decide. We're leaving soon.

SPEAKER_03

I know. I I think I will decide. I mean, I know I will. You might not. I never decide. And I just go to the airport. And then you just like flip. Shrug at the attendant. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Start throwing a tantrum and we don't go.

SPEAKER_03

And then we and then like I've done several podcasts on this. I still can't figure out if I check or carry on. Yeah. Well, I will figure it out. But yeah, but wait, back to we cut ourselves off with the with the cooking. What else have we been eating? What do you remember?

SPEAKER_02

Let's talk about the bolognese. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Last night I made a bol, or no, not last night, Sunday night, Sunday day. I made a Sunday sauce, a bolognese, Marcella Hazan's bolognese, which was pretty good, I thought. What did you think?

SPEAKER_00

Gabagul.

SPEAKER_03

I'm a gabagool.

SPEAKER_00

I'm a gabago. You're my gabagool.

SPEAKER_03

Wait, but if you call my bolognese gabagool, is that saying you don't like it?

SPEAKER_02

No, I love the word gabagool. I don't even know what gabagul is.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, I think gabagool means like a fake Italian.

SPEAKER_02

Oh god.

SPEAKER_03

I think. Let me look it up.

SPEAKER_02

Isn't that fugazy? Kelly's looking it up. I my mouth is watering thinking about it right now. So I guess I just wanted to say the word gabagul.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, oh my god, I'm so wrong. Gabogool is an Italian-American slang term for Capacola, a traditional Italian dry curl cured pork cold cut made from the neck or shoulder. Gabagul is literally like a cut of pork.

SPEAKER_02

So I was inaccurate, but in a different way than you had initially thought.

SPEAKER_03

Dry cured pork, a type of dry cured pork. Wait, say that again.

SPEAKER_02

Well, before I start using all sorts of unsavory adjectives, maybe you should say what you put in the sauce that I just described as mouth watering while you were looking at the sauce.

SPEAKER_03

So it's really interesting. It cooks for like it's basically like a five-hour cook time, which is kind of a lot. You make a sofrito, which is, you know, carrot, onion, celery. You do the onion first, then you do the carrot and celery. I actually kind of blended mine up, so I broke the rules a little bit. Then I cooked down the broken down sofrito, then put a pound of beef, half a pound of pork, and you just cook that barely. And then what's interesting that she does is you put in two cups of milk and nutmeg. No, you actually just put two cups of milk in at that stage. And for a whole hour you cook that. You simmer it. Whole milk. Whole milk, yeah. And you simmer it until really all the liquid cooks out, and you just have like a layer of milk fat. And apparently what that does is it tenderizes the meat, like makes it really, really soft and breaks down the proteins. The milk proteins like break down the meat proteins. I think. I know that it breaks it down and makes it softer and more delicate tasting. And then you put in two cups of a dry white wine with nutmeg and cook for another hour and 15 minutes. And then you put in three cups of San Marzano tomatoes and you simmer that for three hours, and then you have a bolognese. I will say I didn't leave it for the full three hours because we were like starving.

Surprise Trip And Cold-Weather Anxiety

SPEAKER_02

My mouth is watering, thinking of it. Yeah. I could go just like take a handful now of it cold if I wanted to. The sauce. We ate all the noodles, which was papardelli.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, we did. We made paparelli.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, so meaty and thick.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Almost like the pancakes.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. It's imported from Italy. Yeah, that's my new thing is like getting pasta imported from Italy because apparently the bronze cut slow-dried pasta is like the reason when you eat pasta in Italy, you don't get bloated, according to whoever. Italy. And like American pasta is like instead of bronze cut, it's cut by these like plastic machines that use like Teflon.

SPEAKER_02

I thought you were gonna say it was cut by gold. No, plastic. Plastic. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

No, you want the bronze cut if they don't use that Teflon. It's slow-dried bronze cut pasta that you really want. And they sell it. I mean, they sell it at Whole Foods. You can buy it too at like little shops and stuff. I don't know if they'd have it at like a Mariana's or you know, like a Safeway if you're not in the Chicago area, those kind of places. Trader Joe's. What's the everyday Michigan grocery store?

SPEAKER_02

Kroger.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, is there Kroger?

SPEAKER_02

Bush's.

SPEAKER_03

Bush. Okay, I don't know. Bushes.

SPEAKER_02

I mean, we would go to Plum Market.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Well, that's not your everyday. We go there every day. But what is the everyday?

SPEAKER_02

I wouldn't know. I grew up rich.

SPEAKER_03

You've never been to like a regular grocery store.

SPEAKER_02

We went to Hiller's Market, but I feel like that was a one-off. It was this place we used to go to. It was like across the street from our house. Okay. And it's called the shop. We called it the shopping center.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, okay. That's very like British.

SPEAKER_02

I guess, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Very European shopping center.

SPEAKER_02

I like it being British. Then it would probably be C-E-N-T-R-E. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Well, because they don't say mall. They don't have the word mall there. They just say the shopping center.

SPEAKER_02

And there's a Latin in that strip mall, an LA tan.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, L A tan. Nice. Okay, I love it. So that okay, so that so long story long, they may have bronze cut, slow-dried pasta imported from Italy at your local grocery store. But I they do have it at Whole Foods. And most people have a Whole Foods somewhere nearby if you're interested in getting that. I I kind of doubt Trader Joe's is dealing in those waters, but you never know.

SPEAKER_02

If you're listening, at least get some in the store.

SPEAKER_03

For sure. But yeah, bolognese, cottage cheese pancakes. I feel like there was oh, I made this like miso honey cod. Oh my god. Yeah. You were a little disappointed with it. I I'm not a master at cooking cod yet, so that's my next thing. Oh, but I did master, I I think I mastered the appetizer, which was something I brought up on an earlier pod. One slab of Monchego that I bought we bought from Whole Foods, a tiny little blackberry jam, and these grain-free crackers. I put out what I think is maybe just the right amount. I cut the Monchego in half, put the other half in the frig, the fridge, put out the jam, put out just, you know, maybe 12, 15 crackers. Almost the entire thing was eaten. And I couldn't have been happier.

SPEAKER_02

I ate them all.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

I might have taken more than my fourth.

SPEAKER_03

That's okay. I mean, I could always put more out. Like if if if it came to that, I think that's wonderful. Like, great. But I felt really proud that like what was put out was eaten. It just feels like, oh man, I'm like learning this dinner party game.

SPEAKER_02

How satisfying.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, it feels like the night was really experienced. Okay. But yeah, I mean I mean, you can talk a little bit about if you want the project you started.

SPEAKER_02

Sure. Well, thinking about the dinner was making me think of that. Because there's famous architect Florence Knoll, retired at 49, female icon.

SPEAKER_03

She is why are you telling everyone this?

SPEAKER_02

Because I'm oh Kelly. I'm editing this documentary about her. It's working titled Nothing Left a Chance because she did all her art in grids. Because I believe that because she was orphaned as a 12-year-old, she lost her parents. Yeah. I think kind of spent the rest of her life coping with it by making these like grid like patterns in her architecture and her interior design. I'm I'm now getting better at pitching why she's so important, other than that she was like a female front runner in the industry.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

I think there were 200 female architects in the US total at that time.

SPEAKER_03

So you're making a doc about this woman.

SPEAKER_02

I'm editing a doc. I may have to go back. I can edit this uh section to make it make more sense. But I don't know, maybe it's interesting.

SPEAKER_03

Maybe totally.

SPEAKER_02

I think I'm getting everyone's attention.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So I'm editing a doc about this woman.

SPEAKER_03

So you're making this doc about Florence?

SPEAKER_02

I'm making this doc about Florence Knoll. And the the era is very mad men-esque. She kind of invented that look of interior design, of like the furniture design. Furniture design, mid-century modern. Yeah. Yeah, because she's an architect. She did design buildings, but I feel like her specialty was really designing interiors. And other than the fact that she was an orphan and a woman in like a sea of men, like you're naming all the noteworthy architects. Like most people only know Frank Lloyd Wright, but like if you expand the list slightly, I feel like her name would be on the list of really prominent ones. And her her big contribution, other than that, she was a woman in a male-dominated field, was that I think she really brought interior decorating, kind of like almost like fused it with architecture. Wow. Where it was taken, like I feel like it wasn't really taken as like seriously. And she applied architectural principles to interior design.

SPEAKER_03

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02

So it was like imagining the room like a grid that like is being like almost like sculpted with the furniture you put in it and like also like the doors. And it's like, are they glass doors? Are they sliding doors? Just like every element of it.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_02

So she was an architect, but I think she like really brought in.

SPEAKER_03

She fused like architecture and interior design.

SPEAKER_02

In a way that hasn't really changed since she did it.

SPEAKER_03

Wow, incredible. That I that is so cool. Yeah. I think it's such an interesting premise. I cannot wait to watch the finished project, the finished project.

SPEAKER_02

Project.

SPEAKER_03

And I think I I saw the pitriel when you did it two years ago, and I was riveted. I I was really like waiting for this movie to get made so I could watch it selfishly. And well, now I'm making it so that you can watch it. And now you're making it so fun.

Bronze-Cut Pasta And Sunday Sauce

SPEAKER_02

And every second I'm in our bedroom, which is our office, our Florence Knoll decorated office, um designing this movie. I'm imagining you watching it and thinking, would Kelly find that entertaining? Because I do think you might be the target audience.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I think I am the target for this.

SPEAKER_02

And I'm not being coy, I'm actually serious about that.

SPEAKER_03

No, I I believe you, and I think that's true.

SPEAKER_02

And using non-judgmental stance, like, oh, they're like, this furniture is so good, like this furniture's bad. I'm like, we don't need any of that.

SPEAKER_03

Wow. Are you thinking about that?

SPEAKER_02

It's really helping me with my editing. So much of people saying things are like good, it's so good, it's amazing. I'm like, that's not just like move on to the Yeah, it doesn't give you data. Right.

SPEAKER_03

The qualitative.

SPEAKER_02

And then people usually will expand upon why they think something is good. Right. And that's usually the juicy part of the anecdote, anyway. Yes. But a thing that is interesting that I do have in not the movie, but in like potential footage to put in the movie is that Florence Knoll really had this like clear-cut idea of like what was good and what was bad. And like if you didn't agree with her, she kind of didn't want to give you the time of day.

SPEAKER_03

So she was a little rigid.

SPEAKER_02

But then if you like made a really smart case, you could have a dialogue with her. Wow, okay. But she definitely was opinionated.

SPEAKER_03

I mean, I can relate.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, you probably would have gotten along.

SPEAKER_03

Or we would have been like too similar. But I can relate to feeling really, and I if John were here now, he would tell you, having worked on a team with me in an office, I can get a little high on my own supply and sometimes struggle to let other people like have enough space. Not always, but there are times that has happened to me. It's like it can be a tricky thing when you really believe in your own vision of something and you're really enthusiastic about an idea, and someone wants to do something different, it can feel like painful to let go and share the space. And then at times when you deal with that pain and you let people teach you and inform you, it's like some of the most enriching moments. But yeah, it can be tricky to know when to stick to your guns and when to soften.

SPEAKER_02

And I'm a great strong beta tier alpha.

SPEAKER_03

I think we're both alphas in the same time.

SPEAKER_02

I'm secretly an alpha. Yeah, I just have OCD about calling myself an alpha.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

It like it's comforting to me when someone else is in charge and then I can just like challenge them on everything.

SPEAKER_03

Create immense conflict. I almost need someone to be in charge so I can like and yeah, I have no issue like taking initiative.

SPEAKER_02

And I have no issue doing all the work.

SPEAKER_03

Wow, what a combo we are.

SPEAKER_02

We're an amazing team. We should get married.

SPEAKER_03

We should be married. We are married, and that's really our topic today. So maybe we should get into it.

SPEAKER_02

How wise is it?

SPEAKER_03

Well, wait, let's just we'll close out that session really quick.

SPEAKER_02

How wise is it for me to cut you off?

SPEAKER_03

We'll cut this right.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, really? I thought that was so fun.

SPEAKER_03

Well, maybe I guess we can keep it. But basically, so that's our check-in. And what we're gonna talk about today, our main topic is kind of how we have dealt recently with some conflict or some like patterns of conflict that we've noticed coming up. Would you call it that? Would I call it conflict or like patterns?

SPEAKER_02

Patterns. Yes. Yes. No, it's well, this is interesting because I have well, neither of us are currently in therapy, but we've both been in therapy.

SPEAKER_03

I am like on hold. My therapist is not mature.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, but I like the word patterns because I feel like sometimes I'll think of it as cycles.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And something about that word feels a little more stuck.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Like you're like in the laundry machine, you're just like spinning around and you're not going any everywhere. And patterns are a little more cycle of violence. Yeah, cycle of violence. Wait, is this a vicious circle or a vicious cycle?

SPEAKER_03

I think people say both.

SPEAKER_02

It's a vicious circle. I know I looked it up, but I thought it was vicious cycle till maybe six months ago.

SPEAKER_03

I think people say both.

SPEAKER_02

I broke the circle.

SPEAKER_03

Maybe we're all saying it incorrectly when we say vicious cycle, but I I I would respond to either.

SPEAKER_02

Same.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

But anyway, I like the word pattern as opposed to cycle because I feel like it's like, oh, we're returning to these motifs.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And even if it's something so sweet as conflict, it's there can be evolution and growth still. And then there's just a flicker of, oh, here's this familiar touchstone that we fight about all the time. Yeah. And that doesn't mean that we're not having all this growth. So and if I think about it as a cycle, which I'm sure we both do at times, it can feel so stuck.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Of like, oh, we've literally been fighting about this since we've been together.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And yet there's so much growth and evolution in between it. Every time we fight, we learn something new. And but my OCD will tell me.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, the cycle, you're right. It's like if you think of like a hamster wheel, it's like hard to get off of it. And like a pattern is like, oh, let's look at this tapetry and like look at the patterns and be maybe more curious about them.

SPEAKER_02

Like as if we were looking at a Florence Null grid.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, we can be curious together, like flow.

SPEAKER_02

These patterns may be coming from trauma, but they're becoming something beautiful.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, we were noticing. Oh, there's our story.

SPEAKER_02

And that's all for tonight. I love you.

SPEAKER_03

Um, you know, we were noticing like uh it was like right after the holiday, you know, like that kind of between Christmas and New Year's, we're not when neither of us were working much. And what?

SPEAKER_02

No, it's true that we like tend to like have a bunch of conflict in that like chunk of time. And it's funny because I feel like right before like it hit, I had this thought. I was like, wow, we really are having like such a peaceful and it's usually right after that. Totally. Like Christmas was, you know, I feel like we had such a fun time and relaxing, and we had a long stretch where I felt like we were spending a shit ton of time together, and it seemed like it was really enjoyable for both of us. Yeah.

Florence Knoll Documentary And Creative Process

SPEAKER_03

And I mean, we should say, like, we really we have a high tolerance for time together. Like we spend a lot of time together. We both work from home. There are times like you know, the between week of Christmas and New Year's where it feels like every waking moment we're together. So it's a lot, and and we enjoy it like largely. Yeah. But I think we we were spending so much time together. And the holidays, like, there are all these triggers, and even though we did handle them well, it's a lot to ask yourself to be with your partner in the same space as them without much break. Yeah. It just there was kind of a like space where we were we realized, and this took like a lot of talking, but we realized like we were really struggling to like accept things about each other in the moment.

SPEAKER_02

Well, I think what you said verbatim, because this stuck with me, now it's funny as all things become over time. Yeah, I think you said, I'm in this moment, just really wanting you to be a different person.

SPEAKER_03

Yes. But that was me, to be fair, that was me noticing, like, oh, I'm uh wanting Josh to be different than who he is.

SPEAKER_02

I know, and it's not you necessarily saying I do have to become a different person. No, no, and my OCD heard that, and it was like red flags, like, oh god, we're fucked if I don't become a different person. Yeah. And then you said, and you're wanting me to be a different person. Yes. Which I'm like less willing to admit sometimes. Sure, sure. But yeah, I'm sure I was feeling a little bit of that. Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Just like, let me be. Yeah, let me be a mess. I was having one of those moments where I really wanted you to just be like the kind of person where everything just rolls right off. And that is not who I am, not who you are, not who I chose to be with. It just would have been like comfortable and convenient in the moment I was having or the day I was having. If you were more what's the word? It's like type B.

SPEAKER_02

Kind of like chill, like whatever. Like not really questioning anything.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Going with the flow.

SPEAKER_02

Not really like thinking analytically about everything.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Not looking behind the curtain.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Not wondering every second if there's something I should be doing that I'm not doing.

SPEAKER_03

And what were you wanting me to be? Do you remember?

SPEAKER_02

I don't even see the here's the beauty of it all. Like, I don't even remember what we were fighting about.

SPEAKER_03

I know. Sometimes we can have a tough fight and then the next day not even remember the content.

SPEAKER_02

It's probably just a feeling of like, I want you to be like easier on me. And I don't maybe I'm not being um uh articulate enough in saying that. Because maybe you want me to be easier on you too.

SPEAKER_03

In a way, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

You want me to be less anxious, easier on everything, less reactive, less anxious, right? Less taking things personally, less making everything about it.

SPEAKER_03

Because everything you're describing is like stuff I do. It's like I want you to rescue me from my own struggles, which I run into that desire a lot, or that part of me that says, like, just demand that your partner change so you don't have to, you know. Well, I have changed. Well, totally. I mean, there's a dialectic there, like you you've grown immensely, and we have together in our relationship. But I think what we came across was like we were getting irritated with parts of each other and kind of like telling each other to like be different. And we sort of had a little bit of a pattern of that for a few days. We'd like have that come up, kind of resolve it, probably not all the way, and then the same issue would come up like the next day in that week between Christmas and New Year's. It was sort of, I don't want to use the word cycle because you don't like it, but a little bit in that moment.

SPEAKER_02

It was a site, it was we could short term use the word cycle. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, short term cycle.

SPEAKER_02

I did feel a little like a hamster on the on the bicycle. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And so did I. I think we both felt very like, why do we keep coming across this same issue?

SPEAKER_02

Well, I feel like you kept saying, I just want to fight less. And I'd be like, I also want to fight less.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

It's like, why is this happening? I don't think either of us want to fight.

SPEAKER_03

No, I know. And I think we weren't, I what I wasn't doing was really trying to like patiently understand my issue within myself and your issue within yourself. Which then when we finally got there, it birthed our new practice. So we're doing this thing and we're not perfect at it. We're not trying to be perfect at it. But when we start to get activated and we can feel that like heat rising between us in conflict, we pause and say, we're we're gonna take five minutes, you know, if if we can get it. And if we're like in public or something, we'll deal, we'll we'll find out what happens there. But we take five minutes, and in that five minutes, we try to notice. Basically, it's kind of a parts work exercise where we try to notice like what are the parts coming up within me that might be kind of fighting each other, or kind of what in my body is sort of like aching or bothering me. We take a little bit of a magnifying glass to like what's happening within me before I look at what's happening between me and my partner. Would you describe it that way?

SPEAKER_02

I'm feeling like guilty all of a sudden because I think sometimes during my take five, I'll just kind of try to like breathe and like let the toxic energy dissipate.

SPEAKER_03

You know, and I've uh caught myself doing that more like half the time.

SPEAKER_02

And I don't know that that's such a bad thing.

SPEAKER_03

I don't think it's a bad thing at all. I think that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_02

Because sometimes I think that's exactly what I need.

SPEAKER_03

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02

Like basically, like reorient reorient myself to the present.

SPEAKER_03

Yes. Well, that's the beauty of the take five. You actually can use it in several ways.

SPEAKER_02

And maybe even unconsciously, like even as I'm thinking about doing that, it's gonna be like, oh, like I have a headache, or like, oh, I feel kind of shitty, but like, can that be okay?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Or like my anxiety is coming up, like, can that be a part of our day?

SPEAKER_03

Oh my God. I love that you just said that because it's like that five minutes, like you might even notice, like, oh my God, I have a headache. And a lot of what when you're quiet and breathing and just with yourself, you recognize, like, oh, what's to be done about the headache? It's like, oh, it's just to make space for it, feel this and have my day anyway. It's kind of an acceptance and commitment therapy practice, right? Like expand around the uncomfortable thing, the private experience, private event of a headache. Sometimes I really feel like I need to scream into a pillow. Well, and you could do that if you needed.

SPEAKER_02

How often do you feel like you need to scream and you just like can't? You can't really ever scream.

SPEAKER_03

I never feel that, but I think like I'll be honest, like, I I probably like raise my voice a little more easily than you do in general. So but I feel like you always think I'm raising my voice. Well, no, you have a loud voice. There's a difference. I have a quiet voice, but I can raise it. You, your speaking voices.

SPEAKER_02

My voice is loud all the time. So if I'm agitated, then it's like a megaphone.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, okay, fair enough. Right, right. Yeah. My younger brother, shout out to him.

SPEAKER_02

He's like, Tell me to keep my voice down when literally, like the words I'm saying, I'm like actively almost trying to put like a volume filter on the.

SPEAKER_03

You really have a loud voice when you're on the phone and I'm in the other room. I mean, it it sounds like you're having a fight with a person on the other phone every single phone call you have. And then I'll come in the room and you're like, everything's fine. And I'm like, man, he really just has a loud voice.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

I always wonder what the people on the other's end are thinking.

SPEAKER_02

Like on the other end of the like world.

Naming Patterns In Relationship Conflict

SPEAKER_03

Of the call. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. But anyway, that's a sidebar. That's a sidebar. But yeah, so but I like that the take five, and and then of course it raises the question can the take five be misused? And the answer to that is yes. But you know, like it's a way to connect with yourself for five minutes before you're coming to your partner to resolve anything interpersonal. And a lot of times in that five, you learn that maybe there isn't anything between us. Maybe there's something within myself that I need to ease or pay attention to and honor or acknowledge, or maybe problem solve within myself. Yeah. And then whatever's left over that's between us, that's what we go to. Sure. But you were laughing. Tell me.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, I I was like, what if during what if you came to me and you were like, I'm pregnant, and then I was like, oh, we gotta take five.

SPEAKER_03

That would be funny.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_03

I don't think you would do that.

SPEAKER_02

If I did it, I think it would pretty clearly be a joke. Right. And now I might do it.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, totally. We usually do the take five. The take five is there for like when we're kind of getting upset with each other.

SPEAKER_02

Tension is just starting to rise, and it's hard, I gotta say. Because it's really my OCD wants to resolve the issue.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, and something within me doesn't want to take the space either.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Like just earlier today, you were kind of getting agitated about stuff. And wait, I was we weren't fighting.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, oh, yes, yes, I was.

SPEAKER_02

We don't have to get into it. No, totally.

SPEAKER_03

I was stressed.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and I think we were just kind of talking.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And I felt really bad like walking away and doing my work.

SPEAKER_03

Right.

SPEAKER_02

But I was like, if I linger and get like antsy, I feel like that's not helpful.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So it's like, I'm going to take the space and trust that if you want to talk more, you'll come to me. Yeah. But yeah, it can be hard for me to walk away even when I know it's the wise thing.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

It feels unclean. I feel unclean, like if I walk away from you in a room and you're agitated.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

That's a horrible feeling for me. Yeah, sure. Especially if it's right before bed.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. And we have gotten invites before because we can't let the other person just be a little unsettled.

SPEAKER_02

I know. It's like at the of course you're going to be annoyed with me. Right.

SPEAKER_03

I'm so annoying. I'm so annoying. And I don't even feel bad about myself saying that. I know, like, as a human, I'm going to be annoying if I'm honest and authentic. And yeah, it's another like, what are we not accepting about the other person? It's like maybe that they're upset with me or that they're upset at all. And it's like sometimes in the five minutes, you can recognize is this upset something to be felt? Or is there an issue within it to be addressed? And so much of the time it's just to be felt. And the five minutes, like it's kind of an exposure to that uncertainty and that like quiet that feels scary.

SPEAKER_02

Cause it's so hard for me to say, oh, I hurt Kelly's feelings, and the best thing for me to do is apologize once and walk away and let her feel hurt.

SPEAKER_03

I know it can feel hard, but often like if and I always say this to you, you know, like what you control is like offering a sincere, compassionate apology. It doesn't have to be like apologize until you get that just right feeling.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

It's living from your values, right, rather than from the results. It's can I look my partner in the eye and say, I'm really sorry and I love you, and then leave the space for them to feel through the rest of the feelings and recalibrate back to homeostasis.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I know that can be hard for me.

SPEAKER_03

It's hard for me too.

SPEAKER_02

And I don't think it's hard for me to be sincere. I think it's hard for me not to feel kind of constipated.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Like I can apologize sincerely, and it won't feel like okay, we're through this. Right. It's like, ugh, I like took a dump on the world and now like everything's burning down and I'm a bad person.

SPEAKER_03

Catastrophizing part.

SPEAKER_02

Like, even if I ultimately know everything's okay, it's this, it's like, how do how do we get back from here? Yeah. Like, why did I do that? Why did I fart and ruin the universe? Literally or metaphorically. I don't think we've ever actually thought about a fart, but like, just like, I don't know, like a moment where I'm like unnecessarily grumpy and I'm like, fuck, it would have been so much easier to just like take my headphones off and like not like try to multitask and not get all like flustered and just like be like, I love you, and have a little dialogue with you and then like go to sleep.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Or or do more editing or listen to music or whatever.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. What's the effective thing versus what kind of feels comfortable in the moment?

SPEAKER_02

I don't even know if it's comfortable, it's like obsessive, yeah. And constant for me. least obsessive obsessive constipated yeah like a feeling of like relieving a feeling of like not even though I guess but I on some level yeah because you're scratching an itch I know because we just like you know I guess that's like OCDs you're scratching an itch yeah yeah I guess in like a sick twisted way it's relieving but it's a feeling of like I can feel my anxiety coming up and it gets like worried I'm gonna fuck up the moment and then it's just like you double down and you like kind of like just tank it.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Sabotage.

SPEAKER_02

It's like I'm just gonna tank and be a dick rather than like dance around trying not to.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. So what do you think the five minutes does for your OCD? The OCD part.

SPEAKER_02

Well I think the voice can quiet down. When you're just silent I think when I don't feel pressure for it to like quiet down in front of you.

SPEAKER_03

Oh sure.

SPEAKER_02

Because I think it takes at least five minutes if I'm gonna be honest. Sometimes it takes more than five minutes.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

But I know it doesn't take zero seconds. Right. If we kind of have a flare up and like the tension's rising and then like you try to pivot and you're like so what do you think about the burger? Like I really start to like lose it.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah and that is I'm like I feel like I'm being like called out really bothers me. I know. And that's okay. You know like I can deal with that bother but I think like I do know how to kind of just like let's just like talk about something funny for a second to diffuse and that is a challenge area for you. Yeah. But you're getting better at it. I did it I did it yesterday and you accepted oh really yeah because sometimes I'll I did I don't even know what we're talking about. So I think I quoted Searsha saying something funny.

SPEAKER_02

Oh okay. Yeah. Sometimes I almost feel like and maybe this is my own warped interpretation like it's like a test that you're like throwing at me that I need to pass.

SPEAKER_03

It's not at all intended that way.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_03

It's like a life raft.

SPEAKER_02

But it's almost like the tone in your voice sometimes and maybe I'm like that's imagined I'm gonna be honest.

SPEAKER_03

That's imagined the tone is like I know you're like knocking I know in my heart and in my bones I'm like throwing you a life raft like we can just like joke about something.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Because it's like we're we're getting so heated we're not gonna resolve this and I think that that'll be a growth area for us. Sure. Because sometimes I think you need that life raft.

SPEAKER_02

But even sometimes like like you'll ask me like so which like food do you like more and it's like well I could answer but like my answer just seems like dry is the feeling like like I'm getting nothing out of this conversation. It feels like small talk.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah and sometimes you need small talk. I'm kind of a I'm very pro small talk in a lot of contexts in terms of it like creating a sense of homeostasis and safety and grounding you know for new people for a couple for whatever but it's okay if you don't feel that way about it.

SPEAKER_02

It makes me anxious yeah but I can do it I probably try to turn it into not small talk pretty quickly.

SPEAKER_03

And then we fight more in those moments.

SPEAKER_02

Well not if I were to make a joke.

SPEAKER_03

But a joke is small talk in this case yeah yeah I think I I think you you named it like it is a struggle for you you know to engage in it it doesn't feel right small talk? Yeah yeah in those moments probably in most moments yeah yeah I I think small talk has a lot of value personally I guess I gotta get on board well I can feel a judgment coming up for me and I think sometimes like people who are socially anxious will claim they don't like small talk when they're actually just anxious. I know I'm anxious. Yeah yeah totally and I think there's a value to it not every conversation has to be about like philosophy and deep topics for it to have like meaning and value especially in terms of its function right creating safety creating a little familiarity showing someone like you're safe here in this conversation and I think it can function that way like in the heat of a fight you know with a new acquaintance you know I I feel defensive of it.

The Five-Minute Pause: How It Works

SPEAKER_02

Yeah but maybe that doesn't resonate no I think I'm feeling like an asshole.

SPEAKER_03

Why?

SPEAKER_02

I think I was like kind of playfully being anti, but I know I am kind of anti. Yeah and I don't even know if I'm actually anti, but I know it makes me anxious.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah that's fair. That's totally fair.

SPEAKER_02

And I guess I'm owning that it makes me anxious.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah I think that's completely fair.

SPEAKER_02

And it and when it doesn't make me anxious is if like I'm like able to be funny.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And maybe that's a crutch. Maybe I really rely on my humor as a crutch. I feel like it's been my saving my ass lately.

SPEAKER_03

Well exactly but but what we're also saying is when I try to use it you struggle with that in some moments. In some moments and I probably do too like if I'm really heated I'm like I don't want to joke about this I want to fight about this. Yeah it can be both things.

SPEAKER_02

Well I feel like it comes up when someone like asks me how my weekend was I like I don't like I like hate that question. Unless there's like something I'm really itching to talk about. Yeah like I feel like it's like anytime I feel like I'm kind of like regurgitating like an itemized list of things. Yeah I start to like feel very like boring or yeah maybe I feel I'm bored with the conversation. I feel like I'm boring I feel like I like should be going more in depth and like turning this into like an opportunity for like interesting conversation. And I suddenly feel like I'll be listing all these things that I really really enjoy doing and like why do they all sound so dry to me like coming out of my mouth right now.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Like it's almost like I want to hear about your day. I don't like want to talk about myself.

SPEAKER_03

Because you're kind of judging yourself as you're doing it and that's painful.

SPEAKER_02

Unless I like start to get in depth and like get passionate about something. But like kind of if I'm going through the motions and I'm rattling off a list I really start to like get bored by the sound of my own voice.

SPEAKER_03

I've definitely had that experience.

SPEAKER_02

And I think small talk has that flavor.

SPEAKER_03

Sometimes but you know on the podcast we do a ton of small talk. And sometimes I think small talk can be the most important talk there is.

SPEAKER_02

Well it all depends on how you're defining small talk.

SPEAKER_03

Like what tells you more about someone you're like newly dating like going on a bachelor style like date or like going with them to run errands. It's like probably running errands. You're gonna get something more authentic by the mundane nature of the thing. I think mundane things are like important.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah and I obviously agree with that.

SPEAKER_03

And I know you agree with that.

SPEAKER_02

It's maybe something about like I feel like it's like the same thing as like when someone's like I want to talk about the symbolism of the movie and I get this like gag reaction. Like it's almost like maybe the term small talk I have a gag reaction to and there isn't really small talk or big talk.

SPEAKER_03

It's like are you engaged with the topic at hand? Yeah and if I'm not then I'm not right and you know like I maybe small talk we we could rename it like not super intimate talk. Yeah but like talking about the weather talking about the news you know things that don't require a lot of vulnerability right off the bat or in a tough moment. Yeah I think you I I know you think that's important.

SPEAKER_02

I do think that's important. I think the deeper issue is if like I'm feeling disengaged from everything I'm not gonna enjoy any conversation.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah true and if I'm having trouble accessing my sense of humor yeah then like I know that something's like off okay well we yeah we've strayed a little from our five minutes but yeah it's related it's related but yeah so do you think the five minutes has been helpful?

SPEAKER_02

I think the five minutes has been immensely helpful.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah so I think so too I think it can be like a game changer and we're not perfect at it I don't know that it's ever really been ineffective.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah I think there's times we like didn't do it.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah well actually I feel like one time you did tell me like I had trouble like centering myself in it.

SPEAKER_02

And even that was really valuable to say because I remember you in that moment if we're thinking of the same moment you were like you really like didn't use your take five effectively but even as you said that I I I felt like the fact that you said that and I almost internally I didn't out loud and this is the sense of humor thing. You don't have to know about it but I internally like laughed. Yeah I like micromanaged your five minutes got our quirks and you know they're endearing and they're annoying. Five minutes well yeah and like yeah I didn't but that's your business that's the point of the five minutes we'd be in a more fiery place if I hadn't taken the five because even just the space is valuable though let alone if you add to it doing some self-connecting. Yeah that's so funny because I was able to hear that critique and like not like like go burrow into a hole and like start bashing my head against the wall.

SPEAKER_03

Because you were connected that now we wouldn't in internal family systems work you would call that like you basically spent five minutes like getting into some self-energy and the self-energy is always the the thing that heals and creates harmony and openness and forward movement and flow and all of that. So yeah if you spend five minutes getting in touch with the self you're you're you're fostering self-energy in that moment which I think you did that's what you're saying. Yeah you know because I said that like offensive thing and you were able to not take it on and activate from it which is huge. Yeah yeah so so long story long the five minutes has been working and yeah could be something to try out there.

SPEAKER_02

I'd recommend taking five I recommend it too I hope we do it forever and ever I think we will I think we will too I feel like it's on a short list of very concrete game changers that have had it's like EMDR which I haven't done.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah I can't wait for you to have the pleasure of experiencing it which you will instant results. Well not instant but I meant the take five oh the take five yes yeah oh oh yeah I meant EMDR to you but yeah but the take five to the rest of you out there yeah we've had pretty instant results with it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah it's not perfect but yeah I think it turns the volume down.

SPEAKER_03

And we kind of had to form a language with it like this can we call this kind of like a safe thing to say even in conflict and we both had to really like consent to that. Yeah you know which helped. Because I feel like there's moments like both of us have tried it in the past and like it didn't take did not take until we had like a calm conversation about how do we break this cycle you know or how do we kind of break the energy a little when we're in the middle of that and in a calm moment we decided to do that. I mean whatever damaging is going to happen in that take five I mean I think you could just like ruminate on how much you like hate your partner but even in that like five whole minutes you might like at some point recognize that you're doing that.

SPEAKER_02

If you're doing that maybe that's helpful to notice it. Oh definitely helpful to notice it. Because I don't think that's really been any of my take fives. Yeah me neither and if anything it crystallizes into like this is a thing that you're doing that annoys me and that's even just more concrete than like oh my brain is on fire and I can't thank or form a thought.

SPEAKER_03

It's the hardest thing in the take five is to really like put a pin in anything your partner's doing and look at you. It's tricky but I think I think it can be like the juiciest way to use the take five if you can get there.

SPEAKER_02

You think about me during your take five I try to think about me.

SPEAKER_03

But we're one I try to separate us and think what's going on internally what parts am I hearing from can I ask them what they need and when you close your eyes you just see my face floating there in the darkness. Well I have every once in a while just done like a meditation done my mantra my TM mantra and that was great too.

SPEAKER_02

And you see John Butts's face floating away into the darkness if I'm in conflict with him. Just in general he's a soothing face to see yeah totally and he's not here so I'm just the mediator our marriage. Yeah he's the mediator of my life yeah shout out master of my frequencies John Butts we miss you we miss you so much. Um okay well maybe we'll move into our how wise is it segment do you want to tell us what it is yeah I'm gonna go ahead and just say how wise is it to take a video at a concert yeah yeah to be at a live concert and film it.

SPEAKER_03

And do we want to specify like the length of the concert or at any moment in the concert?

SPEAKER_02

Why don't we specify the length of the video all right the length of the video could be anything. Oh the length of the concert like you're filming the whole concert time is an interesting component to this.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah the length of the concert the length of the video you're taking are you filming a song a lot of people film like their favorite song.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah all sometimes especially if you're not there so I can show you this is what the show was like yeah and I'll film 30 to 45 seconds of a part that I feel like really captures the energy of the show.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And then I'll come back and you'll be like oh wow that looks like it was so much fun or you'll be like that looks like the seventh circle of hell.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah you you did a few where I was like yikes.

SPEAKER_02

The other night we saw Perfume Genius at Lincoln Hall it was a duo. It was him and his longtime romantic partner Alan who's in the band with him. I I don't know if you know Perfume Genius but he, you know, he's not so dissimilar from Radiohead.

Small Talk, Humor, And De-escalation

SPEAKER_03

I mean inspired to some extent inspired to some extent but but really doing his own thing.

SPEAKER_02

He says his inspirations are Elvis talk talk.

SPEAKER_03

I mean he's so special.

SPEAKER_02

It's like a very alien yet soulful music with like often a lot going on in the music department like some busy crazy arrangements.

SPEAKER_03

Incredibly beautiful lyrics.

SPEAKER_02

He gives voice to thoughts I've had that I didn't know I had completely he like a prophetic voice as we say I remember reading the lyrics to his most recent album and it was almost like going to therapy.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. And what was so special is because it wasn't his full band it was like him and his partner both on keys. And then sometimes he would stand up and and we were so close and he would like sing right to the audience and it felt so like intimate and like spellbinding.

SPEAKER_02

We were in his cosmic space. Yeah I was looking around noticing not a lot of people were filming it.

SPEAKER_03

Same.

SPEAKER_02

And thinking I'm imagining a lot of people are kind of thinking like how am I witnessing this right now?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And probably having the urge to film it as I I honestly really didn't.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah me neither.

SPEAKER_02

I imagine I might have if you weren't there but I didn't really want to yeah I think I was thinking I will remember that it just was like the act of taking out a phone and filming him in that moment when like felt wrong felt like violent.

SPEAKER_03

Well also because like the whole energy of even like the openers and the two men in the headliner duo was like this is a special intimate show. It was also the first night of this special duo type tour. It felt very like we're all respectful like adults who aren't just like perfume genius fans like we will kind of follow him even into like this like interesting unique project of this duo and let them kind of experience their songs differently and show us that and and sing right to us. It it feels like you know if someone wanted to like play you an acoustic song in their guitar in your home and you like film them instead of listening. Like it didn't feel right.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah and then there's moments that it feels totally fine to me.

SPEAKER_03

It's like a younger band and everyone's doing it.

SPEAKER_02

And it feels more chaotic.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Everyone has their phones out. Yeah I'm like well I'm gonna grab my piece too I'm a filmmaker. Yeah you are Kelly's not here at the model actrice show at Lincoln Hall. This guy's being like an absolute queen and doing crazy dance moves and like I could show her a YouTube video but like I don't know I just gotta take like 30 or 45 seconds and like in that moment that felt wise. Yeah totally and he came into the audience he was closer to me actually than perfume genius I don't know the lead singer's name of Model Act Trees. Yeah and he like came into the audience he was like singing lyrics like right in my face and I think I had my phone out maybe not right then but like yeah I feel like when I had my phone out I could be wrong but I don't think he was bothered and if anything I think he kind of liked it. Yeah that everyone was filming him.

SPEAKER_03

Well that's kind of part of this question like the new landscape is artists get promoted this way. So I don't think they mind it many of them and a lot of them like it.

SPEAKER_02

I feel like I used to take more videos before I was posting on Instagram almost every day. And I had this thought of like oh I can take a video of this like perfume genius show that's one of the most spellbinding shows that I've seen in a long time post it on Instagram and then I'm already thinking about all the hearts I'm gonna get from that in the comments and that made me not want to do it.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And I don't know that I won't do that. I'm honestly sure I will of some other show if I feel inspired to film it anyway. But yeah I can feel a little like removed and like I'm almost this like parasite or this like vampire.

SPEAKER_03

100% I I felt that before too posting some you know spellbinding concert to get likes to promote traffic to my page to bring people to listen to this podcast to listen to us talk about uh this yeah and like is what's maybe not wise about that is the deepest and most profound like joy comes from the presence being in the moment taking in what you're hearing.

SPEAKER_02

But as a documentary filmmaker I obviously don't think it's unwise to film right things that are happening in real life. But as a documentary filmmaker sometimes you have the urge not to yeah it's almost like I have a whole different set of appreciation for like setting down the camera since it's my job and my passion.

SPEAKER_03

Well I'm so curious about that. Yeah you know it's like like I heard comedians say that where it's like the choice to to see a joke in your mind and not say it can be really powerful.

SPEAKER_02

It happens to be on this pod all the time when you and John are talking. Totally totally totally I have so many jokes I don't make yeah I'm so fucking funny um but I think it felt at the Perfume Genius show it felt like really almost like soulful in my chest of like I was mostly just there.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

But I think the moment of basically deciding not to take my phone out was kind of special.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Cause in that moment I almost doubled down on I am here, I'm living this yeah I mean in theory at least that's what's so special about live music before YouTube, you know, unless someone was filming a concert video I guess like your experience is more scarce.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

I'm sure I could go on YouTube now and find a video someone took of that show. Right, right.

SPEAKER_03

You know what I'm wondering like as we're saying it maybe it's almost like not even something you can necessarily like explain but there is a felt sense of like I'm not gonna film this one.

SPEAKER_02

But we need to be more black and white about this. Is it wise or not?

SPEAKER_03

I think we can't with this one this one we have to leave a question mark.

SPEAKER_02

It's not and sometimes you do it anyway.

SPEAKER_03

I think it can be wise and it can be unwise. I really do. I know I think that too but I really want to form an opinion but this is beautiful that we don't have to and like this is one of those cases where like you have to tune into your wise mind in your moment.

SPEAKER_02

And I know that my wise mind is accessing my wise mind the last time I was at a show when I didn't take out my phone and felt wise about it.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah it's like an internal sense.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah and I did in the same breath say I I took a video of that model actress show and um felt really happy to have captured that. Yeah and have in my collection.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And I'm feeling no regret about not taking a frame of the Perfume genius show. Yeah. It's maybe it's like the romanticize your life thing. Does everything come back to this base Line of like presence versus kind of being a culture vulture?

SPEAKER_03

A little, yeah. Yeah, it's like ego versus self.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Parts. Is that the running thread through all these how wise is it?

SPEAKER_03

Well, yeah, that's the running thread through the wise mind. Oh my god. Yeah. So we're not gonna give you guidance on this one.

SPEAKER_02

No. I really love music. I really love video. Can the two be fused? Use your wise mind.

SPEAKER_03

Totally. Okay, well, that's our episode for today. Thank you so much for joining us for a little Kelly Josh episode. Or as my little niece would say, K Josh. K Josh. K Josh.

SPEAKER_00

K Josh got married. Kjush got married.

SPEAKER_03

If you want to reach me, you can find me at kkpsychotherapy.com. If you have questions, you want to work with me, if you have suggestions for the pod, you want to be on the pod, there's an inquiry page on my website. So yeah, shoot me an inquiry there. And how about you, Josh?

SPEAKER_02

If you want to reach me, you can't because I'm gonna be in New York celebrating my mom or editing the Florence Knoll documentary. But yes, I am still accepting gigs. You can reach me to edit anything anytime, and I'll set an appropriate boundary if I don't have the time. And the way you can reach me is joshbayerfilms.com. That's Bayer is in the aspirin, B-A-Y-E-R, and love to see you.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. And thanks to John, who isn't here. You can reach him at buttsb-ut-z. Jonathan at gmail.com.

SPEAKER_02

Send him wishes of health because I think he's feeling a little under the weather. Yeah. And we really miss John. Totally.

SPEAKER_03

And um thank you to blanket forts for our intro outro music.

SPEAKER_02

Always thank you for the intro outro music.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, and we will see you all next week with John. With John. Back in full health. We think.

SPEAKER_02

We think. We're speculating here. Yeah.

“How Wise Is It” To Film Concerts

SPEAKER_03

Knock on woods and thoughts and prayers. Um, but we'll be back next week with another episode. Thanks, everyone.

SPEAKER_02

Thank you. Bye. Bye.

SPEAKER_03

The Wisemind Happy Hour podcast is for entertainment purposes only, not to be treated as medical advice. If you are struggling with your mental health, please seek medical attention or counseling.