the wisdom of STRIVING (vs. NON-STRIVING)

Have you ever stepped back and thought: "what if I stopped STRIVING so hard?" Yes? Well then this episode's for you.

- music by blanket forts -

Transcript

Welcome Back And Life Updates

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Welcome to the Wise Mind Happy Hour. I'm Kelly.

SPEAKER_04 0:08

I'm John.

SPEAKER_01 0:10

And welcome back. Welcome back to John. We missed you.

SPEAKER_04 0:13

Welcome back. I'm glad you guys held off recording and waited for me to get better.

SPEAKER_02 0:21

We just couldn't resist, but we did mention your name quite quite.

SPEAKER_04 0:24

I'm on my deathbed, and you guys are like, you know what?

SPEAKER_01 0:26

We'll just record. We'll just kind of forget about it.

SPEAKER_04 0:30

Moving on. Great episode.

SPEAKER_01 0:32

Josh did say before you came over today. Josh is like, I am really happy John's coming over.

SPEAKER_04 0:37

Really?

SPEAKER_02 0:38

Yeah. He's like, I really don't want to be able to do it.

SPEAKER_04 0:40

You do a great job. A great job with the episode. So we're in here.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Thanks. Well, we we do him in a pinch.

SPEAKER_04 0:46

No, I missed uh being here.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

Yeah. Well, what's new? Tell us what's going on.

SPEAKER_04 0:51

Well, I got sick. Yeah. But now I'm better. I didn't ask you what happened. I think there's just a bunch of like chesty viral stuff going around. And so it kind of like went from one person in my house to the next person. Oh. And it like overlapped. It was like Sarah stayed home with Wes on Monday. And then I started getting sick Monday night. And then I stayed home with him on Tuesday because I was sick too. And so it just kind of like traveled through the house. But yeah, it was just like coughing and gross. And I know. I hadn't been sick in like over a year.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

So Wow.

SPEAKER_04 1:25

I know.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

Yeah, it'll really like as an adult, getting an actual virus is like quite a doozy.

SPEAKER_04 1:30

And I never get sick. What I've come to notice is that the last time I got sick over a year ago, I had to cancel the pot as well. I never get sick like in between. Yeah. So it's like leading right up to it.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:42

Because that was when we were going to have like one of our first guests.

SPEAKER_01 1:44

And then I keep Oh, and then you were sick.

SPEAKER_04 1:46

I was sick.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

I barely remember that.

SPEAKER_04 1:49

I don't remember anything.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

But you're feeling better.

SPEAKER_04 1:51

I'm feeling better. Things are on the up and up.

SPEAKER_01 1:54

Okay. Did you have to go to the doctor or just a virus? Yeah.

Illness, Tennis, And Saying Yes

SPEAKER_04 1:57

Just a virus, I think. What are they going to do? Nothing. Wait it out. Yeah. But then I made the mistake of I had made one of Wes's uh really good friends, his dad, was like, hey, I made a reservation to play tennis. Oh. I was like, Do you you know play often and things like that? And he was like, Oh, he was like, I don't have anybody to play with. I just make the reservation because it's really hard to come by. Do you play? And I was like, Oh, well, I played in high school.

SPEAKER_02 2:21

Oh, you thought he was just like humble bragging? Like, it kind of made this reservation.

SPEAKER_04 2:24

Yeah, I thought he was just like telling me about like this reservation you made. And he was like, No, no, no, I just make them and I try to find people to go with. Oh, that's nice. Okay. I was like, you know, I'm down. Uh I'll play. And he was like, when was the last time you played? And I'm like counting on my fingers. I'm like, uh, seven years. Like I have not played in a long time. So he's like, You still want to do it? I was like, Yeah, absolutely. Well, I got sick. I was like sick on that Tuesday, and the the reservation was like Thursday morning at 7 a.m.

SPEAKER_02 2:50

Oh God.

SPEAKER_04 2:51

So he texted me, he was like, Oh, I heard you're, you know, sick. Are you gonna make it? And I was like, Yeah, I think I'll I think I'll make it. Um I pushed myself to do it, and that was that was a mistake, but it was so much fun. It was like both I was like blowing my nose in between like volleys, but it was fun.

SPEAKER_01 3:11

Yeah. There are people who do work out when they're sick.

SPEAKER_04 3:15

I'm not, I don't work out ever when I'm healthy.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

It's sick.

SPEAKER_04 3:19

This was an opportunity where I hadn't done something in such a long time that I used to enjoy.

SPEAKER_01 3:23

So uh Wow, where was it indoor?

SPEAKER_04 3:26

Obviously, it's at McFetteridge. Do you know where that is? It's like California, it's like Addison in California. You go just a little bit north. It's like a huge they have a skating rink there where they have hockey practices and stuff like that, but they have like huge indoor tennis courts and pickleball courts there.

SPEAKER_01 3:41

Oh indoor.

SPEAKER_04 3:43

Yeah, so you make it seven days in advance or six days in advance. Reservations, it's like first come, first serve. So you have to log in, log in. Yeah, exactly. You have to log in at like 7 a.m. to try to get in. They just book up really quick. So that's why he books them and doesn't really have anybody to play with. If he can find somebody, great. If not, he'll maybe rent like a ball machine.

SPEAKER_01 4:03

But okay. Oh, fun.

SPEAKER_04 4:05

I know. But it was one of those moments where my instinct was this was before I got sick. My instinct was like, oh, you haven't done it in a long time. Just say no. And I was like, don't resist that.

SPEAKER_01 4:14

Or like, yeah, say yes.

SPEAKER_04 4:16

Just do it. Who cares? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

Just go.

SPEAKER_04 4:18

And I was really happy I did. I mean, I really wish I wasn't sick. I think I would have enjoyed it that much more, but now it makes me want to play more.

SPEAKER_01 4:25

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_04 4:26

So it's one of those opportunities where it would have been so easy to be like, no, no worries.

SPEAKER_01 4:32

Um, is this guy like maybe a potential like close friend?

SPEAKER_04 4:36

Yeah, no, we're close friends with this family, and he's getting ranked, quote unquote, so that he can play in a league there. So he's in much better tennis shape than I am, and he played in high school as well. Um, but he's been playing consistently.

SPEAKER_01 4:49

Wait, I didn't know you played in high school.

SPEAKER_04 4:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:51

So did you just say that today? No. Uh like did I miss that entirely? No, I don't think you mentioned it.

SPEAKER_04 4:58

Aren't we wait, what?

SPEAKER_01 4:59

Did you say to me in the story? That I played in this in high school?

SPEAKER_04 5:03

No, I think I just said I hadn't played in like six or seven years. I'm like, I mean, but anyway, I did play in high school. Okay, cool. Um, and he did as well, but he so he's in much better like tennis shape right now. Okay. But he was just looking for people to hit a ball with, and I was like, I'll I'll do this again.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

Yeah. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_04 5:19

But anyway, rekindling an old like joy of mine.

SPEAKER_01 5:24

That's so funny.

SPEAKER_04 5:25

And if I can get in shape doing it, maybe so be it.

SPEAKER_01 5:27

I love tennis. We we've played over you. But yeah, it's actually like literally right too. Listen in your backyard. I know that's part of me. Like, we love pickleball so much, Josh and I, but I'm like, ugh, it's just so accessible. We should probably get more into tennis. Let's hit the courts.

SPEAKER_04 5:44

We should do it. I'll bring my racket over. We'll play after we record. Does Sarah play? She doesn't. She actually really doesn't like it. Oh, okay. That much. Um does Wes play? You know, we've taken them to court sometimes. That's the other thing. It's hard to get on a court.

SPEAKER_01 5:57

It's literally impossible. Like, well, it's crazy.

NYC Trip: Cold, Crowds, Comedy

SPEAKER_04 6:00

You have to wait and wait, and so I we haven't really gotten the boys that much into it. But yeah, other than that, uh being sick and trying to engage in a sport, you know, same old, same old around here. Nice.

SPEAKER_01 6:11

Well, I'm glad you're feeling better. I'm good. I'm good. I feel like this week just worked a lot.

SPEAKER_04 6:18

And you guys went to New York.

SPEAKER_01 6:19

Oh, when we went to New York, yes. We went to New York to surprise Josh's mom, and she wasn't really surprised.

SPEAKER_04 6:30

Like she knew you were coming. She knew. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 6:32

She did a good fake us out a little bit for a second. Like when we walked in, she was like, and then like when we were going to sleep that night and she left to go back to her hotel. We stayed in the house.

SPEAKER_04 6:42

No, no, she doesn't live in New York, she lives in Michigan. So doesn't mean she was out there visiting your sister?

SPEAKER_01 6:47

Yeah. We all decided to go to New York to surprise her for her birthday. Do like a little New York trip. Now, doing that the last weekend of January is something I would never advise someone to do because it was truly so cold. And I I mean, I thank God I wore like tights, long socks, Uggs, pants, thermal, turtleneck sweater, winter coat, heated gloves, a ball of clava, and then my other hood on top of it. And I was still pretty cold the whole time.

SPEAKER_04 7:21

Wonderful.

SPEAKER_01 7:22

I mean, it was like zero degrees, it was crazy, and you have to walk everywhere. So it was it was a little nuts, but it was fun. We there were a lot of chaotic points in this trip, and we ended up being able to laugh about pretty much all of them, which was nice. Josh's sister got accidentally like allergied by a restaurant, and the restaurant was chaos to begin with. It was this shout out to MoTec in uh New York. It's like Mediterranean food. The food was really good, but you know, we had a res. You walk in the door, they're like the people next to us were like, we had a res too. We've been here for 45 minutes, and the woman was like super pregnant, and her friend had just had surgery, and they're like standing there for 45 minutes with a res. Yeah. And we needed to get to a comedy show after.

SPEAKER_04 8:09

See, these are the types of stories that don't sell me on New York. I've never been. This is the part of New York that sucks. These are the type of stories that people tell where I'm like, I don't want to go there. I know.

SPEAKER_01 8:20

Now, if you go in the summer when it's even more busy, well, but it feels less busy because people are outside a lot, so the spaces are less crowded. I feel like the spaces were more crowded than I'd ever seen them. Every coffee shop, you're like, there's 85 people in here.

SPEAKER_04 8:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:35

And like I noticed so much that like the staff at all the places are just so like overwhelmed and overworked. And I don't like to walk into an establishment where I can tell they like don't want me to be there. They're like over you're stressful. Yeah. It's like oof. So almost like the winter made it like more crowded. Because I've gone a bunch in the summer and I feel like it's a little more spacious.

SPEAKER_04 8:57

Yeah, I've never been, so I don't know. I know. It just feels so from what everybody's talked about, concrete jungly to be for me.

SPEAKER_01 9:06

It's like kind of that's the thing about it. It can at times be like too much commotion and in not enough space. And then you add like huge snowbanks, freezing temperatures, and you have so that many layers on. The second you walk in a coffee shop, they're like, excuse me, get out of my way, because you have like you're this wide.

SPEAKER_04 9:24

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 9:25

Like we were laughing. We met my friend Leah in a coffee shop that was like the size of my fingernail. And like the second we walked in, they were just like, You're in the way.

SPEAKER_04 9:33

And I'm just a big guy, so I feel like I'm already in people's ways a lot of the time. They can't see above me, they can't see past me. My arms are really long or knock over something.

SPEAKER_01 9:43

Yeah, totally. Oh my god, it's it's tricky.

SPEAKER_04 9:47

Like people hate being around me at concerts.

SPEAKER_01 9:49

Yeah, I know if a tall person steps in front of me, it's like devastating. I know. And I think I am kind of a tall person, so I'm like, I bet people behind me feel this way too. Like women, you know, yeah. Like what women, because like there's most men are like taller than me. Oh, okay. I got, you know, not most women. Well, no, I'm trying to think what are the parts of New York that you would like? I mean, there's always fun stuff.

SPEAKER_04 10:15

Like the the roads leading out of it, the the highway, the bridge. That's um no, I think I'm not a hater on it. I'm sure I would like a lot of it.

SPEAKER_01 10:26

Yeah, you would. The food is really good. It's like there's probably too.

SPEAKER_04 10:31

I like old city. Old, cool architecture.

SPEAKER_01 10:35

Architecture buildings. Yeah, the parks are really cool. And like the comedy show, you know, it's like a comedy show where they're like working out new material. It's not the top of the top, and everyone was most people were pretty funny. You know, there's like a different caliber of like for sure. There actually was like one or two duds, but we saw some very funny comedians. This one guy, I forget his name with the long hair. He actually a bunch of people told jokes about their therapy experiences. And this one guy, he like gets on stage, he's like, So my therapist told me I need to lose 15 pounds.

SPEAKER_02 11:09

He goes, He turns the audience, he goes, Are they supposed to do that?

SPEAKER_04 11:12

That's funny.

SPEAKER_02 11:13

I screamed, I was laughing so hard. He's like, he's like, My PCP didn't tell me to lose 15 pounds.

SPEAKER_01 11:19

My therapist you could look a little better in therapy, totally, and I said to Josh, I was like, classic, like LA therapist, who's probably like, go on a cleanse. Yeah, and that's the answer. Go on a retreat and make sure you don't eat anything. I mean, it was so funny.

SPEAKER_04 11:37

That reminds me of that. What is that movie, Knocked Up, where they're like, You're saying I need to lose weight, and they're like, No, no, no, you just need to get a gym membership.

SPEAKER_01 11:44

Or, you know, step on the scale.

SPEAKER_04 11:46

We just want you to be healthier and step on the scale and be 20 pounds lighter than whatever. Way that much. Yeah, that'll cure it for you. I wouldn't want to see Central Park.

SPEAKER_01 11:56

I love Central Park, right? That's why they call it a Central Park. You know what's happening more in New York and especially Central Park than would happen at a park in Chicago? I don't. People are like making out. We saw like a hundred people making out. Oh, good. And it's like because like probably everyone in New York has like roommates and like everything's crowded, so it's just like, and there's more Europeans. I think that's part of it too, because Europeans like do that more. Okay. But I remember I was like, there's so much like romance in this park. It was kind of fun. And then there was like a baby shower at the park.

SPEAKER_04 12:27

What else do you have to do in the cold? You gotta make out. Yeah, I mean, it's the only way to stay warm. It's the only way to stay warm.

SPEAKER_01 12:32

Yeah. Making out, making out. Um, but it was fun. The trip was very fun. My mom got you a monogrammed bag. Well, that's how we figured out she wasn't surprised. So she acted surprised, and then the next day she comes with it, wasn't even a bag, it was like a grocery bag with my initials printed on it. So it was like a cute, like little gift, but then like she got one for Alex and one for me. And of course, like they're monogrammed, so it takes time to get that done.

SPEAKER_04 13:01

Wait, what's her real name?

SPEAKER_01 13:03

Well, it was just KK.

SPEAKER_04 13:04

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 13:05

But Alex, Alex was not happy because she was like, So you knew about the surprise. Now you're just your telling us.

SPEAKER_01 13:12

And your mom then for a bit tried to maintain that she was surprised.

SPEAKER_04 13:17

She's like, I just happen to have it on me.

Surprises, Control, And Relationships

SPEAKER_01 13:19

Right, right. I for a second there, I wasn't like putting two and two together. Because your mom is so generous with gifts. So I kind of was just like taking it, not thinking. And your sister was just like, We worked so hard to surprise you. Like, she wanted your mom to either pretend the whole time and kind of go along with it, or like confess. Yeah, but yeah, that was funny. Oh my god, there were so many little funny things like that.

SPEAKER_04 13:47

Do you like surprises? Like for yourself, would you want Jish to surprise you? There's no right or wrong here. Just see, I don't like a surprise. Yeah, I'm not a fan.

SPEAKER_01 14:00

I know, I'm almost like leaning toward no. Well, based on like our engagement and how scared I was.

SPEAKER_04 14:08

I don't know what came over me, but like you don't want to walk in a room with 25 to 50 people waiting there for you.

SPEAKER_01 14:16

That I don't care about. Okay, I think what freaks me out is like all the like little secret communication that has to go on beforehand that I know that some element of which would hit my radar, and that would freak me out. Like, I think the snooping around and yeah, because you when you were proposing to me, at one point you were like, We're not actually going to that place you think we're going, we're going here, and we have to drop off the rental car.

SPEAKER_02 14:43

And I said to Josh, I was like, I'm scared. Like, what is that you mean?

SPEAKER_04 14:49

And then I need you to put on this blind hole.

SPEAKER_01 14:53

Put on these blinds.

SPEAKER_04 14:54

Like, trust me, it's gonna be okay.

SPEAKER_01 14:56

Yeah, it was like it was just like the lack of control. Where it's like, I obviously, my wise mind, like, know that that would all just be a surprise and be good.

SPEAKER_04 15:05

But it's yeah, can't get into it, I don't think.

SPEAKER_01 15:08

Yeah, if someone could truly be like a ninja, like it has to be a true surprise for you. Yeah, complete surprise. And I think to do that, I think you've got to do it like two weeks to a month before the person's actual birthday to really throw them off the scent. Because if their birthday passes, and we tried this with your mom to do like kind of a decoy celebration, but that didn't work.

SPEAKER_04 15:34

Is it wise to throw a surprise party? We don't know.

SPEAKER_01 15:36

I mean, that maybe we should should we make that or is it wise? How wise is it?

SPEAKER_03 15:40

We could put a pin in it. Put a pin.

SPEAKER_01 15:41

Okay, we'll we'll come back to that. But yeah, and then the only other thing I'm reading this book that was like really starting to freak me out. It's like this book about this woman, it's a true story memoir. Her husband and her had this like seemingly, seemingly idyllic marriage. They were like pretty wealthy people in New York, and they both like came for money and made a lot of money. And one day the husband kind of just like snapped and was just like, I'm done in the middle of a pandemic, and she's like telling the story of it, and it's like, I don't know, like freaks me out a little bit.

SPEAKER_04 16:15

What's the title?

Book Talk: Strangers And Wealth

SPEAKER_01 16:16

It's called Strangers. Bell Burden is the author. I mean, it's like you could rip through this book because it's so compelling, and it's well written. She's a good writer, but it's like freaking me out.

SPEAKER_04 16:28

So we don't know yet because you didn't read far enough why he just ended it.

SPEAKER_01 16:34

There's some some things as a therapist I'm like looking at and I'm like, he sounds a little manic, maybe. Or there's like kind of a little bit of that psychopath thing.

SPEAKER_04 16:48

Like with the way he handled the plot that's a screen up and like but it's a memoir.

SPEAKER_01 16:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:54

And she wrote it. She wrote it, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:56

And you'll love this. Like, there's this is not like too much of a spoiler, but like you know how it's like it's funny, like even like clients will sometimes do this in in therapy work, like they'll describe something and you really do have to poke and ask a lot of questions before you get the real picture. Like they can describe something and truly think they're describing the full extent of it. And then you just ask a couple questions and you have a very different picture of like their childhood or something. And I mean, I think even my own therapist did that a bit with certain things where it was like, Well, what was this like? And then what was that? And you're like, Oh, I guess I never thought of it like that. But you know, like she really does describe him like as like so wonderful in so many ways. But then, like at one point, she's like, Well, when we had kids, his whole thing was like, I don't do bath, I don't do bedtime, I don't do homework. You know, like and he he did, she didn't work, and he works a million hours.

SPEAKER_04 17:53

So he doesn't do the evenings, like he didn't really get the water. That's your entire evening for years.

SPEAKER_01 17:58

It sounded like he just did fun outings, and that was the extent. And he would go to work Saturday, Sunday, all during the week. Yeah, and eventually it got to she's living on Martha's vineyard and he's living in the city during the week.

SPEAKER_04 18:09

Oh, well, yeah, that's a red flag. I mean, crazy. What's happening during the week?

SPEAKER_01 18:14

So I think, and I think the part of this, I'm getting a sense that like some of this will be like her reflecting on like, what was my role in this since I can't control him. She's getting to that place, which is interesting. What was it?

SPEAKER_04 18:27

Bedtime, homework, and bathtime.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

Yeah, I don't do bed, don't do bath, don't do homework.

SPEAKER_04 18:31

Uh-huh. Which it's sort of like it's definitely a way to approach parenting.

SPEAKER_01 18:35

Right. But it's also like you could say to yourself, oh, I have a stay-at-home. And then of course, the stay-at-home wife also had a nanny. So he was even more probably like geared up to make this choice. But the thing is, it's like that doesn't even have to, you know, this. Like, even if someone had these exorbitant resources, it's like you don't want to ever have any engagement with like your kids.

SPEAKER_04 18:58

Yeah, you're so disengaged.

SPEAKER_01 18:59

Yeah. Don't you want to like know them? Right. Their bathtime, their bedtime. I guess the answer was no.

SPEAKER_04 19:06

I mean, bedtime's not always great. Right. What it is though, is it's I mean, that's really like some quiet time where you get a lot of what I have found, some real like connection and vulnerable stuff that only comes out right before your kids are going to bed. You know, I can't imagine I mean, even being away from my kids, like that's one thing that I really, really miss. I mean, I miss a lot of the different things, but like putting them to bed is very special.

SPEAKER_01 19:32

You know, it's a very special time. Totally.

SPEAKER_04 19:35

But yeah, to be, I don't do that. And and maybe it was a slow burn. Maybe they she kind of thought they were going into it with like, yeah, I'm more of the caretaker, and yeah, he's more of doing his business or whatever. But still, wow. Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 19:49

I think and a running theme is like it doesn't sound like they make these like philosophical decisions in a joint way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:56

I think it's like unilateral.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

It's unilateral or the decisions never made and things just kind of unfold. And it's like they're unfolding in his face.

SPEAKER_04 20:04

Not a lot of talking.

SPEAKER_01 20:05

No.

SPEAKER_04 20:06

Strangers.

SPEAKER_01 20:07

And I do think like some of this is like has to do with people with like that much money.

SPEAKER_04 20:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:14

And like both of them had pretty difficult, kind of complicated childhoods that were very privileged but very difficult. Yeah, distant and like cold. And like her, I'm like spoiling things, but it's interesting, but like her parents both have really interesting relationships with their inherited wealth. Like they both like inherited wealth, but then like the dad really misused it and then kind of still lived like everything was normal and like oh I'm gonna have to put it on my she's she's just such like a lyrical writer that I like the because I did just start the book that you loaned me because I just finished the two others that I was that were backlogged.

SPEAKER_04 20:50

So I got like 10 pages into it and then I fell asleep, and I am about to read it.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

So oh nice, okay. Yeah, this one's strangers.

SPEAKER_04 20:59

Strangers.

Diagnoses, Overmedicalization, And Labels

SPEAKER_01 20:59

I think it's a little longer than the other one I suggested. The one I suggested, like you're gonna burn through that so fast. I don't mind a long book though, but I don't know if it's actually that long. I can never tell how long books are on my candle.

SPEAKER_04 21:12

That's why I like one of the reasons I really appreciate a physical book.

SPEAKER_01 21:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:18

I do really want to know where I am.

SPEAKER_01 21:21

I know. I really do like a physical book. I'm coming back around to them.

SPEAKER_04 21:25

Does it have two birds and would look like doves on it? Okay. That's it. All copies in use. That's all right. We'll put a hold on that. Get it in three years.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

All copies and use. Well, if I do buy that one, because sometimes when I really like a book, I'll buy the physical copy of it too.

SPEAKER_04 21:41

This is great.

SPEAKER_01 21:41

Unless Josh wants to read it first.

SPEAKER_04 21:43

Spend all your scary. I'm getting in line.

SPEAKER_01 21:49

Yeah. Yeah, I'm getting in line.

SPEAKER_04 21:50

Why not?

SPEAKER_01 21:51

It's a popular one. But yeah, that's really all that's going on. My cousin also gave me a book about quantum physics that sometimes I switch to. It's like quantum physics for beginners. I like it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:01

I see Intermezzo on your shelf. I read that book as well.

SPEAKER_01 22:04

Did you like it?

SPEAKER_04 22:04

It was alright.

unknown 22:06

I loved it.

SPEAKER_04 22:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:07

You only thought it was all right? No, I did. Yeah. Had you ever read our other books?

SPEAKER_04 22:11

No, I don't think so. Conversations with Friends. This is going to turn into a book club.

SPEAKER_01 22:15

I know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:17

Speaking of, our book club uh started again. Remember, I was telling you we read that book on climate change and working with patients. Now we're reading more about, and there's many of these types of books uh that are out there, uh, but it has to do with diagnoses and over-diagnosing, overmedicalization. So the first chapter was on Huntington's disease. I'm really looking into though, um, not that that's overdiagnosed, but the idea of the first chapter was if you know that that's, you know, your parents have it, you have a 50% chance of getting it, would you get the genetic testing or not? Because sometimes having that knowledge, then, you know, you could imagine the impacts on how you view your life and how you are maybe not engaged in your life as much because you think you're seeing symptoms that aren't there. So it was really interesting, and it had some vignettes of different people who had had either been diagnosed with it or had it in their family and they chose not to get diagnosed with it. And the next chapter though has to do with it's broken up into two. It's Lyme disease. Oh, and it's Long COVID.

SPEAKER_01 23:25

Wait, the connection between Lyme disease and the Long COVID? No.

SPEAKER_04 23:28

No, just kind of like, are these overdiagnosed? Are these like kind of real things? Or I I don't want to say that this person is pushing an agenda either way. Um, and I'm not far enough into the book, but I'm really interested in the Long COVID.

SPEAKER_01 23:43

Well, Lyme disease is incredibly interesting. In your mind, when you hear like what it is, it's like, how could anyone be over-diagnosed? It's like you have exposure to ticks, and then you have these symptoms. Like that should be to me, that should be a fairly small portion of the population.

SPEAKER_04 23:57

Is it an autoimmune disease?

SPEAKER_01 23:59

So it's like an autoimmune reaction to like tick poisoning.

SPEAKER_04 24:03

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 24:03

And you know what it's what's often misdiagnosed, or the two that get misdiagnosed for each other is rheumatoid arthritis and Lyme. And I went to grad school with someone who was because it's like inflammatory. Yeah, and they have like, I think kind of identical symptoms and even antibodies that show up in your blood work. And the girl I went to grad school with thought she had rheumatoid arthritis for a long time and then went to a different doctor and got properly diagnosed with Lyme. Which like you can in some cases go like almost like cure. Not in all cases, you can. There's chronic Lyme and then there's like Lyme.

SPEAKER_04 24:42

Or it's like inactive in your body or like remission. Um interesting.

SPEAKER_01 24:46

And like obviously your rheumatoid arthritis symptoms can go into remission, but it's different.

SPEAKER_04 24:51

So this book is called The Age of Diagnosis, How Our Obsession with Medical Labels Is Making Us Sicker.

SPEAKER_01 24:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:56

By Susanna O'Sullivan. Now she's an MD, and I believe from the UK, but even in the prologue and whatnot, just the idea of even if we have better instruments of diagnosing people with certain things and illnesses, it doesn't on the back end mean that we have better treatment for those people. So then is it making people sicker by introducing this diagnosis to them? And then there's not as much on the back end where we're really like helping people through this. And it and it even talks about how they've like moved markers for things like pre-diabetic got moved, and then it like kind of like opened up a whole window of people who were now all of a sudden pre-diabetic when before the you know the number got moved. Yeah, and it's like kind of arbitrary. Yeah, obesity, right, exactly. So anyway, that's my book right now. I love it.

SPEAKER_01 25:46

I'm so interested to hear what it is.

SPEAKER_04 25:48

But there is a chapter too on so we're reading it, and it does have certainly mental health components with all health-related issues, but there is a chapter on uh ADHD, and then there is a chapter on like spectrum diagnoses as well. Yeah. So I'll be interested to see that.

SPEAKER_01 26:04

It's so interesting with stuff that's like a little less concrete. I mean, it's like I feel for people on both ends, you know, like someone who's like, I'm having all these crazy symptoms.

SPEAKER_04 26:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:16

Like they want a diagnosis.

SPEAKER_04 26:18

Right.

SPEAKER_01 26:18

Or even mental health symptoms. Like sometimes I'm almost like I could flip a coin with like what client feels liberated by a diagnosis and which feels really limited by it and misunderstood by it or finely understood.

SPEAKER_04 26:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:31

It's a tough thing.

SPEAKER_04 26:32

It is really tough. And I would, you know, I hate to then have people not be taken seriously with certain. I mean, it it cuts both ways, right? It's yeah, if you're using a diagnosis so much it kind of loses meaning. Yeah. But once it starts losing meaning, then people aren't taking it seriously, which it might, yeah, people might very much be suffering in it. So it's very difficult.

SPEAKER_01 26:52

And there's like it can be pretty gendered too.

SPEAKER_04 26:55

Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah. We always talk about kind of the mental health of it all being out there on social media and everybody saying using certain terms and saying they're experiencing certain things, and anecdotal kind of like, oh, well, I I was up all weekend, so I must be bipolar or something like that. Because I had like a lot of energy this week.

Anxiety, Narcissism, And Social Media

SPEAKER_01 27:14

And it's or I have mood swings, or I have mood swing. So there really is a lot of like armchair stuff going on, or even like legitimate licensed practitioners using platforms that like distort the advice or the diagnosis, or right. You know what I was gonna suggest, and maybe we will do an episode on this, but there was like an interesting New York Times article that was like, what really is a narcissist? And part of the article was like, this is getting thrown around so much. So much. And I think it could be really interesting. Let's do it. Part of me wanted to, I was like looking into some articles on like more peer-reviewed articles on like narcissism as a trait when it's pathological and when it's not. They even looked at like vulnerable narcissism, which is like the world hates me and is focused on me, and then the like more pathological, like I'm good, you know, I'm the best. The trump. Like pretty similar, like negative effects of like living from that perspective. But it's interesting. But yeah, I I I think there is a real like distorting probably in all directions of like I feel this sometimes about anxiety. You know, like every person alive is going to experience fear, and I think it's like been way too pathologized, the idea of worry and fear. Yeah, I think some people are like, well, but my anxiety.

SPEAKER_04 28:40

When does human experience turn to pathology or right versus just that's a human experience? Right. Part of human experience is suffering. Totally. Not to be diagnosed necessarily. Yeah. And that's not to say that people don't need help or support. And granted, a lot of this also has to do with in order for practitioners to get reimbursed, you have to have a code that is a diagnosis to submit to an you know, so we're also part of a system that's set up or chained that rewards diagnoses, so pathology, which is a whole other podcast. Totally.

SPEAKER_01 29:17

Sorry, I took us off on a no, I I love it.

SPEAKER_04 29:19

A tangent there with book these books and book club.

SPEAKER_01 29:23

Yeah, I love this book club. I am going to come and tap on the window.

SPEAKER_04 29:27

You're gonna be like one of those suction cup on the window, like I'm reading it.

SPEAKER_01 29:32

Yeah. Do you guys ever meet out in public?

SPEAKER_04 29:35

Not yet.

SPEAKER_01 29:36

Because we're avoiding you, we're avoiding outsiders. Show up at Loch Loam. There's a lot of space in there.

SPEAKER_04 29:43

Oh, I know. That's where we met for our first podcast meeting.

SPEAKER_01 29:47

The birth of the pod.

SPEAKER_04 29:48

The birth of the pod.

SPEAKER_01 29:49

Yeah. Okay, well, maybe that's the perfect moment to transition into our topic for today.

SPEAKER_04 29:54

Yes. Striving.

SPEAKER_01 29:56

Striving or non-striving.

SPEAKER_04 29:58

Or non-striving. I say striving because probably I strive a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 30:02

Yeah, well, same for sure. Yeah, this is basically we're gonna talk about it as a um mindfulness. Component. Yeah, principle.

SPEAKER_02 30:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:16

A mindfulness thing. A pillar? What are we looking for? Is it a pillar? I like pillar. I think that's great. Yeah. So what are you what comes to mind when you think of non-striving?

SPEAKER_04 30:28

So the thing, well, we had to refresh our memories, but the one thing that I wrote down was striving is or non-striving is being and moving away from doing.

SPEAKER_01 30:41

Yes, the being versus the doing.

SPEAKER_04 30:44

Yeah. Kind of like allowing and being open. When I think of non-striving, it's allowing and being open.

SPEAKER_01 30:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 30:51

And for some reason, striving always makes me think of I'm like tense and I'm like trying like so hard. Like, yeah, exactly. Like very, like I'm gritting and I'm I can't. Yeah, it's like reactive almost.

Introducing Non-Striving In Mindfulness

SPEAKER_01 31:08

Yeah, totally. That's what I like. Yeah, I like that. That you know, that comes up with mindfulness and like other forms of meditation, like Buddhist doctrine. It's a lot about that, like cultivating that like space of being and not always having to do it. Is that like not efforting, not hustling so much toward basically an outcome. Right. And it's like, what why are we even talking about this? Why is this a mindfulness principle? Why be mindful? Why non-strive? The idea being like mindfulness, that present moment, non-judgmental awareness is where like the most profound like well-being is like the deepest sense of like wholeness. And I I feel like that resonates with me in my lived experience. You know, because like I'm often like trying to get to the next thing. Or even it's like this could even be within like trying to practice mindfulness, like trying to like get to the mindful place.

SPEAKER_04 32:13

Right.

SPEAKER_01 32:13

Like the place of peace and zen.

SPEAKER_04 32:16

Cause I, yeah, when I think of medit form more formal meditation, I always strive to not have my mind wander, and that's always a yeah, really difficult thing for me to let go of is to just let my mind wander. And then when I notice that it's wandering, then kind of like bring it back. Except I feel like I get very like stuck on wanting it to focus, and then I'm kind of like striving to keep it somewhere.

SPEAKER_01 32:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:45

I don't want my mind to wander, and then it's hard for me to just let that be.

SPEAKER_01 32:50

That there's like a paradox in it, right? Where it's like the intention is this like connection to the present moment and not wandering off into like past or future. But then it's like if that happens, there's a paradox of like allow it and then change it, allow it, then come back, notice it. So like there's there is actually space for the mind to wander, even though that's not the core intention. Every mental health, like intervention is essentially like paradoxical a bit. It is that acceptance and change. And yeah, like non-striving is like let go of efforting toward an outcome, which is hard because don't you think we are trying to lead our clients in a certain direction? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:38

So is that striving?

SPEAKER_01 33:40

I think in some cases, yes, for sure. I I feel like I'll even catch myself striving. Or sometimes I heard someone talk about it in the parts where they said, like, don't pursue. Pursuing.

SPEAKER_04 33:53

That's a good word for it.

SPEAKER_01 33:54

You know, it's like be just be there with the person. And it's funny, like, I I it's like I have self-consciousness in both directions. Like if I'm pursuing something and like hopefully this person feels better by the end of this session. Or if I'm like, I'm just really truly gonna be present with them. There, I could I could imagine like internet criticism of either attempt, you know, like oh, so you just sit there and do nothing and then I'm paying you, you know, or whatever, or even someone going to therapy. So you just like are present with another person, like whoop-dee-doo. Yeah. Or that like more self-consciousness, I feel maybe with like other like wise therapists, like, of course it's it's not about me. I don't want to pursue an agenda. And I even want to encourage them to be in that space of being. That's like, is that striving too? It's like falls onto itself a little bit.

SPEAKER_04 34:45

Striving's always confusing and non-striving.

SPEAKER_01 34:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 34:48

I always get confused by it. Because then I'm striving about whether I'm striving.

SPEAKER_01 34:52

I know, totally.

SPEAKER_04 34:53

I'm trying to figure out I'm trying to figure out striving.

SPEAKER_01 34:56

What it means to not strive. Well, it's like, I guess it's like when we put our energy towards something, we want that to be about the internal value system, not the external outcome. So it's like if you're questioning whether or not you're striving, maybe that's in service of your value of like growth and learning. You don't have to necessarily perfectly figure out if you're striving. It's more like a curiosity. Yeah. You know, could this be efforting towards something?

The Paradox Of Meditation And Effort

SPEAKER_04 35:29

Yeah. Maybe the non-striving is the recognition of it and not following it.

SPEAKER_01 35:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:34

Tapping in and noticing when you are trying to pursue or you're having the urge, or whatever it is, the voice is telling you your thoughts are telling you to like react or do something.

SPEAKER_00 35:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:48

If you're able to just be more present with that, that is the non-striving, is the ability to contact that but not follow it.

SPEAKER_01 35:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:56

Cause you're not really striving in that moment. You're noticing your being present with what is showing up for you to push you in that direction.

SPEAKER_01 36:05

Yeah, you're noticing and like describing, identifying.

SPEAKER_04 36:09

Yeah, if you can pause that or slow that down.

SPEAKER_01 36:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:13

That's maybe the non-striving element.

SPEAKER_01 36:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:15

Which then opens you up to maybe more options.

SPEAKER_01 36:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:19

Man, do I strive being a parent? I'll tell you that much.

SPEAKER_01 36:22

Yeah, yeah. Tell us.

SPEAKER_04 36:24

Well, just trying to get my kids to do something is like that they don't want to do.

SPEAKER_01 36:29

I know.

SPEAKER_04 36:30

It's like shower, brush their teeth, you know, do this and that. It can feel so much uh, you know, so effortful.

SPEAKER_03 36:40

Yeah. Bedtime, bathtime homework.

SPEAKER_04 36:42

Oh, it comes back to that. Apparently, that guy was wise.

SPEAKER_01 36:47

Yeah, no bed, no bath, no homework. I don't strive.

SPEAKER_04 36:52

I don't strive and I don't make myself available. I'm just gone.

SPEAKER_02 36:55

The kids are like completely dirty, not in their beds ever.

SPEAKER_04 37:00

So why don't we that's funny? You know, and you do have moments where you just kind of drop the rope and you're and that lack of pursuit, they eventually come around sometimes, you know?

SPEAKER_01 37:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:14

So maybe there is a lot to be said about not pursuing it so much, um, when it comes to at least interpersonal stuff.

SPEAKER_01 37:21

But yeah. Well, you know what? It's like so interesting to think of it in a th in an area like parenting. Because it's like being a parent, like the role you're like guiding your kids in like living, in existing and living.

SPEAKER_04 37:38

Yeah, I mean, you're trying to, yeah, you're teaching them how to live.

SPEAKER_01 37:41

So you're in this role of like guide.

SPEAKER_04 37:44

Yeah. So it's like I've been quoted as saying sometimes to Wes and Shane, I you know, I'm tired of trying to convince people to live an effective life. Like, I'm just I'm I'm kind of exhausted of trying to teach you how to be like an effective person right now. Like, which that just goes right and they're just like whatever.

SPEAKER_02 38:04

Like effective.

SPEAKER_04 38:05

But sometimes it feels like that, where it's like, yeah, like I'm only trying to help you. Like all of these things I'm trying to do. Yeah, which you know, you don't think that as a kid. And I remember being back as a kid, I never thought, oh, well, everything my parents are doing is got my best interest in mind. Like, you just don't think like that as a kid, but totally you're like, they're here to restrict me. I on the other side of it as a parent, it's like, yeah, I'm putting so much effort into just like guiding you your life in the in not the right direction, but just what I feel is useful for you, and I'm looking out for you. And it's just met sometimes just met with such resistance, you know.

SPEAKER_01 38:40

Well, yeah, it's like with something like parenting, this is where I think we get we really get into the paradox of it. And I'm not even a parent yet, but as I'm just trying to like conceptualize it for myself, and like that's very different than practicing it. But it's like you're in this role of guide. So your intention is to guide them, right?

SPEAKER_04 39:03

Of course. Not just let it be.

SPEAKER_01 39:04

But it's like, how do you both guide and not like force them it to a particular arrival?

SPEAKER_04 39:12

Yeah, I mean, that's a tough needle to thread there.

SPEAKER_01 39:16

It's almost like if you break it down to the little, like, you know how a lot of people like whatever they like coach parents on picky eating or something, and they're like, you know, don't be a short-order cook, like make a family meal, let them take what they want, take what they want, and eat what they want, keep exposing them to options, and if they're hungry enough, they'll come back to the plate and voila, you know, like they're not picky, which I don't know. I I don't get, so I don't know really if that works, but I I'm aware that that is a common philosophy. Sure. So it's like, is there a version of that with like the other like tasks of parenting? Yeah. There's like intentions, there's guidance, and you're there as this like secure base.

SPEAKER_04 40:02

Yeah. The problem with that is when they're raging and refusing to eat anything, you do become the short order cook because they're so hungry. And you've got to feed them, and you gotta feed them that right. Those are those are the moments where it's like that's all well and good. And then when they are so like emotion-minded because they're so hungry, it's like I'll make I'll get them whatever they want right now.

SPEAKER_01 40:27

Right.

SPEAKER_04 40:27

Because we gotta tamper that down.

Parenting Through Non-Striving

SPEAKER_01 40:29

Well, you know, and that's probably a moment where mindfulness is much less a priority.

SPEAKER_04 40:35

Throw it out the window, throw it out the window, you know. It's like there's like safety. Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_01 40:41

Yeah. Well, you know, it's like I had this thought the other day, I didn't even share this with you, Josh, but I had this thought where I was like, there's no reason for me to ever resist like what Josh is doing. You know, like is in relationships, it's like, or at least me, it's like trying to like and especially because I'm a therapist, I'm like, this is the effective thing. You know, like I'm saying shit like that all the time. And it's like Josh, I I'm not unsafe with Josh ever. So because that's not an issue, I literally never have to emotionally resist. I can respond, I can like engage, but I never actually have to resist. And like honestly, it helped me in that moment to recognize that. Like, I was like, I need to remember this. Like, there's no reason to do that.

SPEAKER_03 41:34

So I'm gonna get blackout drunk and snore all night. Yeah. Well, it's like irresistible.

SPEAKER_01 41:40

Now, could being blackout drunk at points be unsafe? Yes. Maybe it could be like drinking and driving.

SPEAKER_03 41:51

Oh, yeah, that's really unsafe. Totally. I'm gonna be crashing the car.

SPEAKER_01 41:54

Right. But it's like only really with safety areas.

SPEAKER_04 41:58

You're talking about just like not not striving to have a certain result. Result.

SPEAKER_01 42:04

Yes. I think that's important. Yeah. I think that's at the crux of it because like it's when you bring up the thing about kids, it really makes this feel like whoa, like how do you non-strive as a parent?

SPEAKER_04 42:18

I don't think you do. I think you try. You try, and I think there's moments that are lower stakes that it works. Yeah. And I think it's also probably a a product of just age. Yeah. I think maybe you can embody the non-striving as they have lived experience. Yeah. Your brain is forming more. You are more of that person to kind of put maybe some guardrails out there, but then but not really put them in any direction. And they they, I mean, I guess that would be the maybe I'm just hopeful that that's maybe what it becomes is more of like you're not really striving to have them do a particular thing. Maybe you want that and you're trying to respect their autonomy as they're getting older.

SPEAKER_01 43:02

Yeah, like maybe it gets easier to non-strive, like as they get more mastery and yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 43:08

And just develop mentally.

SPEAKER_01 43:09

And to your point, like maybe if someone's had the experience where their parents like really, really strive to control their safety, like at every single like over controlling types.

SPEAKER_04 43:20

So, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:21

Like where it's like you can never ever be unsafe, or even dip your toe in something that's not perfectly safe, which literally nothing is, and it's like striving to keep your kids safe. I actually think like there could be really useful non-striving there, not like whatever, but that sort of like I'm gonna create a home with as much safety. That's my intention, and I'm also gonna leave space for whatever happens. Yeah, not strive to like make sure they never catch a bruise or a broken heart or a D on the test or a whatever. Easier said than done, of course, I'm sure. But I love it as an intention. And I I I mean it's like I feel like this every single day.

SPEAKER_04 44:09

Well, I think there's different areas of it, especially from the parenting perspective. But because like I don't ever strive with them on like their tests or their homework or anything. Yeah. I'm more of just kind of like, okay, I gave you the reminders. If you're not gonna do it, the natural consequence. I mean, you're gonna get the grade you're gonna get then. Right. So that for me, for some reason, is just an easier context to not feel the need to. It's like, what okay, what I know you're doing what you're supposed to be doing in school right now, and yeah, that's a privilege that my kids are like, you know, they're very yeah, attuned at school, and it's like, okay, you know, I mean, kids don't turn in assignments all the time. Right. Totally.

SPEAKER_01 44:47

So I love that intention you have there of like let them experience the actual consequence. That could even be true if a kid's like truly struggling with school. Meaning, like you step in with like support, like practical and emotional support, and you don't try to like force an A.

SPEAKER_04 45:04

Now, what I am striving for right now with their work is procrastination. I'm trying for them to get a better understanding of what that means. Yeah. And trying to get them a little bit more future oriented with that. So I think I am striving there. Yeah. Okay. Understand that.

SPEAKER_01 45:21

So you want them to not procrastinate.

SPEAKER_04 45:23

I want them to at least consider, let's just paint a picture of what your Sunday is gonna look like and feel like. Totally. Versus what your Sunday is gonna look like and feel like if you choose maybe this option, right? This or that option. Like what's that gonna look like? And also, we don't know what happens in the future. So you might get invited somewhere at the spur of the moment. And let's say your homework isn't done. How is that gonna feel if you if we say no to that invite or something like that?

SPEAKER_01 45:55

So what do you make of that? Like your own desire or your own like urge to strive more, they're not there.

SPEAKER_04 46:02

Um yeah, that's a good question.

SPEAKER_01 46:06

I'm curious, like maybe it feels like worse for you, or like it's like gonna hurt them more or something.

SPEAKER_04 46:13

I think I just want them to have a better understanding overall of like time.

SPEAKER_01 46:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 46:20

And how to value being able to do something difficult when you don't want to do it. Yeah. Because there's something larger that might be in the future for you or something.

SPEAKER_00 46:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 46:31

And it's just, yeah, I mean, probably too, it just sucks when it's like then they're angry they can't go somewhere, or they're angry, you know. So then it's like double. It's like they're doing the work, plus they missed out on something, right? Which then just creates suffering for everybody, including me. So it's probably a self-centered thing, too. Yeah. Where it's like Well, I know my striving is off, but so self-centered. Where it's like, uh, like I don't want to be here Sunday night trying to prep for the week and then you're doing this, and you know.

SPEAKER_01 46:56

I mean, I'm sure people that are like really, really I shouldn't even say good at striving because that doesn't even make sense. Not in striving, that doesn't even make sense, but it's like there must be parents who can like listen to the kids freaking out and not be activated. And it's like I get so activated at that stuff when other people are like having a meltdown.

SPEAKER_04 47:15

Yeah, that's that's a hard thing to be able to do. I think it comes with time. Some people are probably naturally better at it, but I think I've gotten a little bit better at the non-reactivity in those moments. Yeah, it's really hard though. Oh my god, totally, especially when it's like something that's just so insane. It's like hard to just not want to invalidate them and be like, this is ridiculous. Like, why are you freaking out right now? Right, you know, right?

Values Over Outcomes In Therapy

SPEAKER_01 47:41

Yeah, it's like sibling takes spoon from other sibling and it's like earth shattering, screaming. Right. I mean, it comes up with me for me in friendships too. Like, I feel like I want my friends to like like me and feel positively about me at all times, you know, and like they're striving there instead of like sometimes allowing relationships to have like an ebb and flow and trusting myself in them.

SPEAKER_04 48:06

And then sometimes people want to have a positive outlook on you.

SPEAKER_01 48:09

I mean, even clients too, sometimes. And yeah, like I this is like a part of manifestation. Sometimes I do like step back and think, like, how good is this for me to focus on? Because sometimes it does like really put my focus on like the future attainment.

SPEAKER_04 48:27

Well, it sounds like striving, manifesting.

SPEAKER_01 48:30

Totally, but you know what's so ironic? Even though there are like different schools of thought on how to manifest, almost all of them that I've engaged with actually recommend non-striving as a form of manifestation. So they do this weird paradoxical thing of you can't get things you're like desperately trying to get.

SPEAKER_04 48:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 48:50

That's why they call it manifesting, because it's like it just appeared. It just like it, it's like you're magnetic and it comes to you the law of attraction.

SPEAKER_04 49:00

But what did you do to attract it?

SPEAKER_01 49:03

Let go, usually some form of letting go.

SPEAKER_04 49:07

So it's non-striving, yeah, allowed you to manifest something.

SPEAKER_01 49:12

That's the idea. However, there are many moments where it's like you'll manifest something, and then it's like I go right back to like reworking the list for like, well, what do I want next? And then I really am like thinking in that way.

SPEAKER_04 49:27

And see, that's confusing.

SPEAKER_01 49:29

It's confusing. It definitely is because like the ethos is different than the practice, it's different than the experience.

SPEAKER_04 49:34

Because it's what do you want? I know what I want. Yeah, let it go, you're gonna get it.

SPEAKER_01 49:41

Exactly. It is like truly a contradiction.

SPEAKER_04 49:44

Let it, but let it go.

SPEAKER_01 49:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 49:46

And now you're gonna get it.

Manifestation, Letting Go, And Flexibility

SPEAKER_01 49:47

I think like, well, and again, I know I mentioned Deepak Chopra, you know, I'm going to I'm gonna quote him, whether that's controversial at this moment in history or not. But he the way he kind of cleared up that idea to me, and I I kind of follow his method with it, is his whole thing with manifesting is like before you meditate. Like he believes we manifest in that space between thoughts. So basically, like when you're in that deeply mindful stance, is like that's that's the energy that attracts things to you. That like flow state, it's kind of that, yeah. It's like presence, it's like deep presence. Like, that's what that's what uh Akhartolle would call it. So he says, like, before you meditate, read your manifestation list, just like know it, read it, contact it, then you let it go. Let it go. And there's like this faint flicker of it like in your energy, okay, for when you then get into that deep presence and you kind of like put it into the quantum field, is basically what he would say. And like the woman that I follow the most, this woman Lacey Phillips, she's very like you make the list, you're not overly attached to the list. Like the list is almost like this necessary like form. And she argues that like a lot of times when you manifest, like you don't even really need the thing. You recognize that like what got me the thing is what I actually wanted, which is the sense of self-worth and presence. And I found that to be true too. But I I have had real moments where I'm like, man, I am always thinking about that next thing on the list, you know. So sometimes now what I'll do is if I manifest something, I'll check it off and I'll be like, okay, I'm gonna sit with like remembering that that came about and appreciating it and being present with it.

SPEAKER_04 51:43

But when you say manifesto, you've gotten it. It's happened. It's happened.

SPEAKER_01 51:48

Yeah. For instance, like before we went to New York, you I you know this because I think I talked about it, but I was really freaking out about the cold weather. I was like, I've been really negative and judgmental and like you know, seeing six degrees. And I've been to New York in like 30 degrees, 40 degrees, it's miserable because you're outside so much. So like I was like, oh my god, six degrees. Like, I'm literally gonna be in physical pain the whole trip. And I was kind of like catastrophizing, like, everyone else will be fine, I'll be hurting, I'll have to be like a diva, I'll be so embarrassed, also in pain. Really just going there. And I had to kind of be like, you gotta slow this down. Like you're not even there yet. Like you're going on this trip. So I I have moments sometimes where I'm like waiting for clients to log on, and I have my little post-it notes. So I was like, I'm gonna write down the way that I want the trip to go. And I'm just I'm not gonna strive for that. I'm gonna get it into my psyche that it's possible. It was almost like a cognitive flexibility exercise of like, it's possible this outcome could happen. This is in the giant realm of possibilities, as is being miserable. But like, let me just introduce my psyche to like this going well. So I wrote down like we get to Josh's sister's apartment and we visit for a little bit. It's nice, and then we go to bed early because I knew I'd be tired because I had to get up early for clients and then go to the airport. So I'm like, you know what, rest, get a good night's sleep and feel really good to embrace the day. And then I was like, I'm gonna wear a bunch of layers and it's gonna be cold, but it's definitely gonna feel bearable. I'm gonna feel warm enough. You know, and I wrote, we're gonna walk, but it'll be minimal walking, like from to subway stations to cabs, and then we'll be inside museums, restaurants, whatever. Really, all that stuff pretty much came true. We maybe had one or two longer walks, but I actually was okay. And then right after I wrote that down, Josh's sister texted us and she's like, here's the plan. I figure like you guys will get here kind of late. So we'll visit for just a little bit and then we'll go to bed kind of early to get some real rest for the weekend, which is not something she usually says. I mean, I really feel like I manifested that. Manifest by just entertaining now that wouldn't be like the woman I follow. That would be like old school manifestation, like the secret, which is like positive. I mean, it can be toxic positivity, to be honest.

SPEAKER_04 54:20

It's like sure, just keep putting it out there.

SPEAKER_01 54:23

Think positive and you will manifest positive. But in my sense, I it wasn't like thinking positive. It wasn't because I wasn't invalidating. I was like, why don't I just spend five minutes imagining a different outcome? A different scenario so that your psyche knows this could happen and also this and also a million other things. That sense of like expansion of options. There's like that flexibility. It could be like this, it could be like this. And it it loosened me up a little bit for my fusion with the negative. Yeah. And I do think that helped. But was I I don't feel like I was striving right there.

SPEAKER_04 55:01

Well, maybe part of non-striving is to let go of the negative stuff you're striving with. Yeah. So entertaining another possibility is non-striving in the direction of I'm striving so hard by attaching to this thing that I know is gonna be bad, if that makes sense. Yeah, it's like I'm trying to change something by just continuing to ruminate on it or something. Yeah, catastrophizing. Yeah, it's funny too, because in that story, you're almost talking about New York as if we weren't experiencing the exact same bitter cold here in showing.

SPEAKER_01 55:35

We don't walk here.

SPEAKER_04 55:37

I understand that, but it yeah, it's almost like the way you talk about it, like we lived in like a like in a warm area.

SPEAKER_01 55:44

Yeah. I just think the fact that it's such a walking city. Yeah, it's hell.

SPEAKER_04 55:50

Hell.

SPEAKER_01 55:50

Because here it's like Josh and I work from home.

SPEAKER_04 55:53

Right.

SPEAKER_01 55:53

We have a heated garage that holds our car.

SPEAKER_04 55:56

Right.

SPEAKER_01 55:57

We don't go that many places.

SPEAKER_04 56:00

You go in a bubble.

SPEAKER_01 56:01

And I think I was also thinking about the fact that because you're right, it's freezing in Chicago. It's colder in Chicago, usually a little bit. Usually. But what I also know is like I know myself on like trips with other people, like especially your family. Like your family's active. You guys like to be out and about, and I do too, but like I'm way more type B. I can do like one activity and be like, we'll relax for a couple hours, right? Like that's who I am. I remember I visited my cousin in New Orleans. He's like, I've I have a whole new philosophy on trips now that I'm seeing you like take two naps in a day. And I was like, I really am not gonna like rush around. I'm here for the ambiance. Like, you know, like not really for the scenery. Yeah, because like his mom, dad, my shout out to my aunt, Jenny, and uncle Mark. When they're on trips, it's like a thousand sightseeing.

SPEAKER_04 56:52

Yeah, that's a lot.

SPEAKER_01 56:53

And and my aunt, she even said to me, She's like, food is for fuel. It's not on trips. We don't, and she's talking about like going to Paris and feeling that way. And I'm like, oh, the entire trip is food for me. Right. Food and like sitting in a cafe, walking around. Right. And New York is kind of that too. It's like walking around, food, like so.

SPEAKER_04 57:12

Maybe even that is one person striving on a trip and the other person's not striving.

SPEAKER_01 57:17

Right.

SPEAKER_04 57:18

I'm not judging. Uh you know, people do like to see a lot of things and be active on trips. There's nothing wrong with that. Right, totally. But for another person, that might be striving.

SPEAKER_01 57:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 57:28

Because then the agenda is I have to like check everything off the list that I saw everything here.

SPEAKER_01 57:33

Does sites seeing specific like monuments like feel sometimes? I'll go and be like so impressed by something and like interested in it, but there's so many where I'm sort of like, I could take or leave this thing.

SPEAKER_04 57:45

Yeah, I mean, I think it depends on the monuments.

SPEAKER_01 57:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 57:49

For sure. Of course. Um I think I I get much more awe out of natural phenomena like nature or totally, you know, those types of things. But there are definitely things that are man-made that are very awe-inspiring. Yeah, I'm like taking this back as I'm saying taking me to a museum. I know some people hate museums because they're like, I just want to be outside. I don't want to I could be in a museum all day that has beautiful artwork and yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:16

I like that more now at this era of my life. Probably when I was a little bit younger, sometimes I thought it was kind of boring. But um, we went to the Whitney when we were in New York and it was really nice. There was a very cool exhibit where this photographer picked 25 people out of the phone book, sent them like a Polaroid camera, and had them like take pictures of a day in their life. That's cool. It was like he was so interested in what they decided to capture.

SPEAKER_04 58:39

Yeah. How did you pick the names? I think random.

SPEAKER_01 58:41

Yeah, I feel like there was maybe some algorithm for how he did it.

SPEAKER_04 58:43

Algorithm, yeah. Randomizer. Yeah. That's a great idea.

SPEAKER_01 58:46

Yeah, because someone in our group was like, sounds like they did all the work. And I'm like, I think the concept is the piece, you know, like seeing seeing what people chose. Like there was a he sent it to someone in Hawaii and they only took pictures of the inside of their office. And he's like, it turns your perception of like what is picturesque in Hawaii and like what does someone decide to capture and they just like picture their office.

SPEAKER_04 59:08

Yeah, and what was the prompt? Like just what is your day look like?

SPEAKER_01 59:12

I think it was like because he didn't give them a number of pictures because they it varied in the number of pictures. I think it was like photograph a day in your life, I think.

SPEAKER_04 59:21

Yeah, because that would even be interesting to follow up with a person where it's like, wow, you really had no maybe thought that you had to make it look like anything other than a day in your life. You live in Hawaii and you took pictures of your cubicle. Because that is a day in your life. Whereas somebody might have been like, I gotta drive by some cliff and take a great picture and I gotta make this look great, you know.

SPEAKER_01 59:44

Right.

SPEAKER_04 59:45

Would you do that if an artist sent you a Polaroid and would you take a picture or pictures of your life?

SPEAKER_01 59:50

Well, we were talking about how it's so unique because these days, if someone sent me that prompt, like I'd probably think it was like spam. Or like I'd be freaked out by it.

SPEAKER_04 59:59

Well, the person got physical mail though, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:02

So I feel like that would be different than like Yeah, than the internet or whatever. Well, you just mail is shit. Like you like, it just you don't get anything good in the mail. If I actually got that, I was like, this has gotta be legit. Like who uh who would do this?

Travel Styles And Museum Moments

SPEAKER_01 1:00:15

God, I would really hope. I mean, maybe if I recognize the name of the artist and I could like trace it. But I think everything is like someone's coming and get me. You know, like photographs, but I don't want them to have photographs of me. A day in the life, a day in the Kelly Kilgate Yeah, and it's like if it were wintertime, I guess we'd be taking pics of the inside of this apartment because I couldn't believe.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:36

Right. It's cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:37

Cozy on the couch, cozy on the couch, dinner, yeah. Dinner.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:42

I mean, breakfast, lunch, dinner.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:44

Breakfast, lunch, dinner. What great artists are they watch me?

SPEAKER_04 1:00:47

It's a great, great idea.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:48

Isn't that so cool? No, I will say what's funny is like it was so hot in that area. Yeah, that floor was hotter than the other floor. I think they like the heat broken that and it was like overheating it. So it's like a very cool exhibit, but I'm also associating it with being like really sweaty under all my layers.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:04

We were starting to get pretty hungry too. Yeah, that's true. For some reason, my mind's going to like time traveling to a a past where somebody, an artist, could send you like a tape and say, make us a mixtape for a day in your life.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:18

You'd have like a cassette tape. Totally. Of like songs that person likes. Yeah. Or what they're listening to right now.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:26

Yeah. It took so much more effort to make someone a playlist.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:30

A playlist.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:31

You had to get the cassette and like wind it up or whatever, and like do the whole thing.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:35

Well, it depended on if you had the CD player with the cassette, and then you'd have to put your CD in and you'd have to start it, pause it, and then oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:43

Oh my god. So you made a mix.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:46

Oh, all the time for my friends. Wow. In high school, all the time. That is so cool. I was known as having more of a like rap collection than most. And so a lot of my friends would ask me to make them like rap mixed. Yeah, like mixtapes of like stuff they hadn't heard. Wow. Artists that they hadn't heard. Incredible. Or at least even if they had heard them, they were like, give me a deep cut, you know, give me a mixtape.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:15

Yeah. I want to know what you'd put on the code. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:18

Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I'd put some little drawings on the like where the songs were. I'd write like put some little drawings on there, personalize it a little bit. I love that.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:28

I love that. We've drifted from striving to listen.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:32

I I want I'm striving to get back into cassettes. Why not?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:35

But maybe we let our conversation wander. We let it be. Embrace that.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:40

I think that's a lot of what this podcast is. I mean, a hundred striving. We don't really strive to stage. Which probably turns off a lot of our stuff.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:49

Yeah, totally. I'm sure.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:50

I thought they were gonna talk about this, but they just let it be.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:54

But that's what a conversation is. Don't strive for it to go anywhere. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:58

That's the beauty of a podcast. That's the beauty of a podcast. It's a free form conversation. It's the beauty of our podcast. Yeah. Okay. Well, maybe any other thoughts on striving? Non-striving?

SPEAKER_04 1:03:10

I don't know. Maybe it's like the non-judgmental stance. Maybe I need to put it on my radar a little bit more and think a little bit more about it. Be more intentional with it.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:23

Totally.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:23

Notice when I'm doing it. Allow things to play out a little bit more.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:28

Maybe that's my not looking for an outcome. My intention.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:33

Yeah. Yeah. I really think I want to think about it. And I will. Well, I that'll be my intention. That'll be your intention. I will force that outcome. No, I do. And I think I really think the parenting example was a helpful one because it's so tricky in that area. It's like if you're even you're like a teacher, it's like, how do you teach and not strive? It's like that that's like at the crux of doing the paradox.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:02

Right. Which is. And for maybe our listeners thinking about their, I mean us as well, because we are clients of therapists, but in people's own works with their therapists, maybe thinking about do they strive in their sessions or are they fused with certain things that they want to come out of their therapy? Which again, it's a fine line. You want to have goals and you want to move towards certain things, that's really important. And maybe at times in your therapy, letting things just kind of unfold and sitting with them.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:34

I think that's why, like, when you set goals to try to pin them back to values really helps you not strive. Because really what matters in the essence of it is the value. So, like, does it have to literally be this outcome? Or can you move through the world with this energy?

SPEAKER_04 1:04:49

Energy.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:50

It's like I want to have a house versus I want to be a house. That's a good point.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:56

Yeah. I want to be a house.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:58

A house is not a home. And a home is where we are right now. Tie a bow on it.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:07

Tie a bow.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:09

And that's my OCD talk.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:11

No, that's what the producer offers, really. I love it. I love it.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:14

Put a bow on it.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:15

I'll be curious what your OCD over the week or weeks will think about non-striving.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:19

I love non-striving. I already know this this has weirdly been a fixation of mine this last week.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:24

So you had texted about it, and I think I didn't really put two and two together because I was so busy editing. But as you were talking about it, I was like, oh yeah, this is my jam.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:32

Trying not to strive.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:34

Just be present.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:35

Be present.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:36

Just be. Like I do remind myself so many times this morning in my early grumpiness, like, there's nothing to be done. You feel grumpy. Be present with that.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:44

You don't need to be not grumpy. Be grumpy. Faded away over the course of the day.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:49

Anyway, that's my two cents. It's because you were getting closer to being with me. The closer I get to John, the less I struggle. The less grumpy.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:58

Yeah, the more you struggle.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:01

Striving ensues. Striving.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:06

Striving. Hashtag.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:07

Striving.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:08

Maybe we could get that to go viral as a hashtag. Do hashtags go viral?

SPEAKER_04 1:06:13

What's a hashtag?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:15

Do you know what a hashtag is?

SPEAKER_04 1:06:16

Kind of.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:19

A hashtag is like the pound side. I know what a hashtag is.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:25

What's a hashtag?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:26

Oh my god, I totally bought that for a second. I love it. I love it. Okay, so we'll move into our how wise is it.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:32

How wise is it?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:33

What did we say?

SPEAKER_04 1:06:34

I don't know. Are we doing that? How wise is it?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:36

Wait, what was it again? Oh, a surprise party.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:38

To have surprise party?

SPEAKER_01 1:06:40

Or did you have another one? Surprise.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:43

Party. Um do I have another one? Well, I I wasn't thinking of another one because we said we were gonna do that one. Okay, well, let's do it. Let me, I mean, er, how wise is it to get a guided tour at a museum? Should we do that one? Or could we go more in depth about the surprise party?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:01

Well, I feel like maybe we burned it.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:03

Okay. Did we burn it?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:04

Okay, so or how wise is it today?

SPEAKER_03 1:07:07

Because we're scrapping our previous ideas.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:09

Yes, we're now going with how wise is it to get a guided tour at a museum versus experience the art and the pieces on your own.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:22

Clarifying question. Okay. Is a guided tour also a tour where you get like headphones?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:32

So actually, that is a great question.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:34

Like, are we talking about a docent or are we talking about the recording where you can scan the like QR by the piece, and then it gives you like does that count as guided? I kind of lean towards it does.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:52

Because I'm thinking only of the opposite of it, which would be you're really going in with nothing. Nothing. You're just experiencing the arts, the museum, wherever it is that you are as is. So I kind of lump it together. Is that a fair lump?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:07

I think it's a fair lump. I mean, I almost think we definitely have to cover the recorded ones. Because the docent adds this element of like community around the art, whereas like the recorded doesn't.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:18

Yeah, you're still very isolated. Yeah. Not isolated, but you're you're not listening to it with anybody else.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:25

Right. It's in your headphones. At the Whitney, like you hook up your eye, your ear pods to it. Right. And then they tell you about each piece.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:33

Yeah. Okay. So that's what we're saying.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:35

How wise is it?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:36

How wise is it? I mean, I'm really torn on this one.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:40

It's tough. It's a tough question. I like it. It's a hard hitter. Yeah. Well, because when we What does your first instinct tell you?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:48

My first instinct tells me it's not wise.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:51

Me too.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:52

Okay. Well, I want to hear why you think.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:55

I almost feel like there's a an immediate knee-jerk resistance to not wanting to like listen to it. Yes. Totally. Because maybe that's like a school-based his like thing within me, or I really want to go in and just feel like I can go where I want to go. I can stand as long as I want to stand somewhere. Yeah. Like I want free reign.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:22

So maybe there's like a little bit of a like petulant child in me that is, you're not going to tell me how long to stay at a piece of artwork, or you're not going to like, you know, like that type of thing. I don't know. It just it my knee-jerk reaction is to be like, go in, experience a museum for yourself.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:40

But then there's a adult part of me that's like, you're going to miss so much if you don't listen. You know, or you're going to miss you're going to miss some rich stuff that you wouldn't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:52

Well, that's to be sure that there is like rich information in the tour. But like, I feel like when when I put my headphones in this last time, I ended up turning them off because I was like, I'm just listening to someone like tell me what to know about this and almost like what to experience out of it. Yeah. And I was sort of like, the beauty of art is like, what do you feel? Yeah. What does it evoke? And I do think it can interrupt that. It probably doesn't have to. And maybe you could do a little bit of both where you don't turn on the audio until you've like spent some time with the piece. It's like, how much time do we have? Yeah, I'm gonna say no. If you have to pick between the two, I would definitely go in on your own.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:40

This makes me think I was at the field museum with the boys, Sarah and um my mother-in-law, and her husband was so far behind us because he was reading every single thing. I was like, man, that's such an admirable thing, yet also not how I engage with the museum at all. No, it's more about like the sensory for me. I'm not saying it's not sensory for him, but for me, it's more about the sensory, the sights, the sounds, the what it evokes. Yeah. And if something really evokes it, I'll lean in and maybe read something more about it. But that was like wild to me because I was like, where's Ben? And they're like, oh, he's way back there. He's reading like every single He's an act lord too. He's yeah, he's still with the dinosaurs. We're already into cavemen. You know, it's like wild. But anyway, it made me think of like, yeah, I I think I engage more. It's wiser for me to maybe not wiser, but I like to feel like it's more organic or something. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:48

Yeah, I I'm so with you there. Like, I would never read every single one. I'll I'll read if I'm like moved to read it. You know, if it's like something striking and I'm curious, like, what's the name of the artist?

SPEAKER_04 1:12:02

Now, would you be more prone? Like, is there a type of museum that you would lean more into the guided tour?

SPEAKER_01 1:12:09

Yeah, it's a good question. Probably a history museum.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:11

Yeah, yeah. I would say because you're kind of like these are facts, like this is what we're doing here. Right. Yeah. Art, I think I'm full blown now that we now that we're talking about it. Don't I'm not doing a tour. Yeah. It's not wise for me.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:23

Well, especially because there are is the option of the written stuff to on the side. Like there is. It's really if you're really confused and you're like, I need something to help me engage with this, look.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:34

If you're if you're like, I don't get it.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:37

I get it. Wouldn't that be funny if I just stood in front of like the Motor Lisa and I'm like, I'm gonna get it.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:42

Yeah. I I remember um one time my one of my good friends from college, um, he worked in a building that had a like a glass installation done by like Dale Choluli. He does he did like the Bellagio and like he does all these like floating grass over Venice and stuff like that. So cool. And I went and I picked him up from work one time, and I was like, man, I was like, holy shit. I was like, you have a Choluli in your office building, like in the atrium. And he was like, What's that? And I was like, it's like above you. And I his response just made me laugh so hard. He was like, not much of an art guy. And then it was just like moving on to the next thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:17

Not much of an art guy. Not much of an art guy.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:19

He was like, and great, didn't want to know anything else about it. Didn't I was like, this is amazing. You walk in this like every day. And he was like, Yeah, not much of an art guy. It was like perfect.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:29

It's like you'd hope that someone eBooks are not much of a quote art guy. You might just look up and be like, beautiful. Not much of an art guy. So funny.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:37

Yeah, that that response. So I don't think he's getting many guided tours. Like uh not wise. He did a guided tour.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:44

There's like a Futurama joke where like the robot like goes to like a gallery and he goes up to the desk. He's like, one art, please.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:52

Yeah, totally so funny. Yeah, yeah, it's like we all have different and I think some people are too trying to like figure it out. And I'm I this is not how I experience it at all.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:03

That's not how I usually do it either.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:05

Yeah, it's just more like whoa, what's coming up for me?

SPEAKER_04 1:14:09

I always thought though it would be cool, not that that job in particular, but I always thought when I get older, like my second career from being a therapist is gonna be like somebody who works in like a museum doing something.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:22

It'd be so cool.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:23

I just love museums. Yeah, they're just like their own world, their own like it's like their own just like world in there.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:30

I feel like a lot of people that work there though are kind of just like, can you not touch that? You know, like it's a little bit like a lot of things. Oh, yeah, I would be like that job. I don't know what I would do there, but like engage with the group, like as a group therapist, you could be like, I wonder what I wonder what people are noticing.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:47

Yeah, like maybe have them have the reactions first before I drop the knowledge on.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:52

All right. Or you could even be I'm quitting being a therapist.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:55

You literally could start a business like that, like guiding people, be like a private tour guide, and do that kind of tour guide. I mean, that'd be incredible. I would I would take you up on that. Great. And it's like and you could say, like, I know more facts about this. Tell me if you're interested in that, or do we want to just move on and kind of experience more like what you see and talk about that?

SPEAKER_04 1:15:14

I feel like I should have some background in art, maybe. Yeah, yeah, I walk in it. Maybe a little bit like, yeah, I'm just a therapist. What's your art background? Not much of an art guy. And but I'm here. What does this evoke? Yeah. Um wow. But I do like tours.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:30

I just don't think they're again, I'm not I like the idea of getting a lot of information.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:36

I just don't think it's wise for me down time. I don't lean in that direction right away.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:41

We were laughing when we were at the museum that like we looked at so much art that like when we went down the back stairs to like get out, we were like, it's starting to feel like every part of this is like a piece. Like even the staircase, it's like, how does it relate to the rest of the exhibit?

Closing, Contacts, And Disclaimer

SPEAKER_04 1:15:56

You know, you know what the tour also does if you're doing the headphone stuff is it takes you out of conversation with the people you went with.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:02

Literally, that's exactly why we both took it out.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:05

A part of why, and then it's kind of like then are they listening? Should I interrupt them from their experience? Do they want to talk? Maybe they don't want to talk now, right? I feel like it disconnects you.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:15

Yeah, I mean, Ben's two blocks down, two blocks, two blocks.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:19

Two museum blocks two museum blocks, which is long, yeah, long blocks. I mean, I don't even see the guy.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:26

Yeah, where is he? Because he thinks there's like a test.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:29

It's like, well, the man just reads everything, so it's like so funny. We got I this is just a funny sidebar. There, for some reason, Sarah has the same name as somebody who went to the University of Dayton.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:44

Oh, nice, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:16:46

Not that her name is that uncommon. Right. I look at you like, nice, good work.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:50

Um I know someone with the name.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:52

Sarah went to Wisconsin, so you know, not very close to one another, but we get the alumni mailing from Dayton, and it was one time just sitting like in our place, and one time, you know, Sarah's mom and Ben were visiting, and Ben was sitting on the couch. I'm like, what are you reading? I don't even recognize that. He's like, Oh, I'm reading this Dayton uh alumni magazine, and I was like, Why? I was like, nobody went there. We didn't stay. He was like, I don't know, it was just out. I feel it looked interesting.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:21

I was just out.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:22

He will just read anything, like just wild. So I guess it makes sense that he would be in a museum reading everything because he's reading the University of Dayton alumni mailings.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:34

Wow, he's the person reading like the whole backstory when someone like puts a recipe up on the internet.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:38

Yeah. Oh like just reading galore.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:41

Wow, good for him. Yeah, good for him. Does he have like his PhD or something?

SPEAKER_04 1:17:46

Uh he was a judge.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:47

Oh, oh, that's a civil series.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:50

Yeah, legal law school. Yes, public defender's office. He ended up being a judge and yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:57

Wow. And he's also, yeah, follows follows the rules.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:01

You read all the things, you gotta read all the things. Yeah, totally. Including alumni mailing.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:07

Incredible.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:08

And all the plaques in the museum. Wow, I love it. Well, that was a good Hot Wise is it.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:13

Yeah. I don't know. What do you think? Yeah, judge.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:15

I I really love the word docent.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:18

Yeah, it's good.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:19

Docent. A baker's docent. A baker's docent. I think it's not wise. Yeah. I agree with everything you said. Okay. I wish I could remember, because I remember the moment we took our AirPods out. This was the first time we had ever tried like the guided in-ear tour speaking in your ear, he telling you about the pieces. I I was like, this is interesting, but I'm feeling disconnected from the world around me. And I kind of love just like standing in front of the piece, and like it almost feels like I'm meditating the whole time when I'm at an art museum, which it doesn't if you're listening to someone talk in your ear. Yeah. But I love the ambience. And I also love to eavesdrop on people talking about the pieces around me. Yeah. But I forget the second I took out my AirPods. I wish I could remember verbatim what they said, but I heard the group next to me talking, and it was like something funny about the piece I was looking at. I was like, that's why I took my AirPods out. Yeah. I almost feel like they were talking about the Super Bowl, but I don't think it was that. And I was like, that's the kind of cultural context I need.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:13

And the guy's like, not much of an art guy.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:17

He was like, because there was all these little like circus figures.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:20

Oh, yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:21

And he was like, that guy looks like a determiner. And he's like, and I was like, uh, you nailed it.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:28

You nailed it. It looks like a little docent.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:31

A little tiny little dose. Little circus docent. Oh, that's my little baker's docent.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:37

Oh my god, I'm dead. Oh so funny. Okay, I love it. So now we know it's not wise.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:44

Yeah, yeah, maybe. Write us right in. Tell us your stories from the field of how wise it was that you didn't. And you couldn't have imagined your museum experience any other way. Yeah. Because we would love to hear that as well. Definitely, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:57

Okay, well, that's our episode. That's our episode. That's what we call an episode.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:00

That's what we call another one in the can.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:03

Okay, so if people want to find you, John, where can they uh email me at butzbutz.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:08

Jonathan at gmail.com. What about you?

SPEAKER_01 1:20:10

Okay. And I can be found at kkpsychotherapy.com. I have an inquiry page there. So send me an inquiry about really anything. You want to work with me, you want to talk about the pod, come on the pod. All of it. Jish.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:25

You can find me at Jish. You can find me at Josh, like J-O-S-H, Bayer, B-A-Y-E-R, like the aspirin, films, films, dot com. That is my website. I keep getting asked to edit things. I don't have time, but you can ask me to, and sometimes I have time. Yes. Okay. Do it. That's my story. The website. You can contact me there.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:48

And keep contacting Josh for wanting to be on the pod. Yeah. All the emails. We love it. Yeah, you got my number.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:54

We love it. Yeah, we have a couple of hand that are gonna be exciting for you all. But we will see you next week.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:00

We'll see you next week.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:01

Thanks, everybody.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:02

Thank you, Blanket for Oh, thank you, Blanket for Space. The Wisemind Happy Hour podcast is for entertainment purposes only, not to be treated as medical advice. If you are struggling with your mental health, please seek medical attention or counseling.