The Wise Mind Happy Hour
Two therapists musing about the idea of an inner wise mind and how to connect with this psychic space in different contexts.
The Wise Mind Happy Hour
the CHESSBOARD METAPHOR
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Have you ever compared your wise mind to a chess board? Or, how about: what if you stopped trying to win the game of chess and just BECAME THE CHESSBOARD? (And what if the game of chess is really...the game of life?)
- music by blanket forts -
Welcome to the Wise Mind Happy Hour. I'm John.
SPEAKER_01:I'm Kelly. Welcome.
SPEAKER_05:Welcome back. You're therapists. Yeah, your podcast therapists. Do you think we mentioned that we're therapists enough?
SPEAKER_01:You know, it's not a bad idea. I almost like wish in some way I could mention it on every single like Instagram or TikTok post to just be like, that's where this conversation is coming from.
SPEAKER_05:I feel like it could go either way where it's like, oh God, these people actually like are therapists with some of the stuff we talk about. They're like, I'll give that degree to anybody. But then also then they're like, oh, okay, I get it now because they're therapists. Yeah. They're not just two randos. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, we're random, but I don't think anyone would think that about like our primary content at the center of the episode. That's a good point.
SPEAKER_05:If they're just like listening to the first 10, 15.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, they might be like, interesting. Interesting.
SPEAKER_05:And we're always joined by Josh, our producer. Ah, well, Josh. Very professional. Welcome back. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Very professional. I'm here.
SPEAKER_04:Wait, you're always here.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_04:And I'm always here. Yeah. And I'm always under your bed. And I'm always a top.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Thanks, everyone. That's about it.
SPEAKER_06:So yeah. Well, let's check in. You know what?
SPEAKER_02:Wait, speaking of.
SPEAKER_06:No, we're not checking in.
SPEAKER_02:Speaking of that, you know, like that, that like thanks everyone.
SPEAKER_01:And just like closing down the episode. Sometimes I think about that. I've never mentioned it on the pod, but like, you know, like when we'll be talking about a topic, and one or both of us will be like, you know, it's really hard to manage that.
SPEAKER_02:Just going like, well, that's our episode. Well, like, well, like good luck to you out there.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that's just kind of a cliffhanger. I'm gonna start doing that every time we say it's hard.
SPEAKER_05:You should, yeah, we should just end it.
SPEAKER_01:Just end it right there. Take care out there.
SPEAKER_06:Bye. The cops found me. They finally found me.
SPEAKER_02:They found us and they're taking away our podcast.
SPEAKER_01:Oh my god. Okay.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, let's check in.
SPEAKER_01:Let's check in. You are you mentioned that you've been watching some Olympics.
SPEAKER_05:Well, the Olympics are on.
SPEAKER_01:The Olympics are on. The Winter Olympics.
SPEAKER_05:Which are you more of a summer or a winter?
SPEAKER_01:I'm definitely more of a summer. I I get obsessed with the Summer Olympics. I haven't even flipped on the Winter Olympics, sadly.
SPEAKER_05:I kind of like the Winter Olympics. I don't know if I wouldn't say more, but I definitely think there's events that I don't watch ever.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:In summer. No, in the winter ones. Like there are events that I just never watch. So it's kind of like entertaining to watch something every four years that you don't really like I never watched speed skating. Right, never watch Luge. Right. Or anything. Yeah. Yeah. I think what's interesting about the Olympics right now is that there's like all of these uh the storylines that go along with it. So there's two in particular that are interesting. So there's one called penis gate.
SPEAKER_01:Stop.
SPEAKER_05:No, I'm not. That's a real thing.
SPEAKER_01:Whoa. Penis gate. I can't believe this hasn't hit my game.
SPEAKER_05:Have either of you have either of you heard of this?
SPEAKER_01:No.
SPEAKER_04:Pizzagate?
SPEAKER_05:Did I say that?
SPEAKER_04:Pizzagate.
SPEAKER_05:I'd be into that game.
SPEAKER_04:I'm just drawing upon my uh working knowledge.
SPEAKER_05:Penis. So tell us about penis gate. So penis gate is apparently, and this is all like this obviously I'm not reading straight from an article, but apparently ski jumping, you know that event.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:So you go down a huge hill and then you have to stay in the air really long and go like a really far distance.
SPEAKER_01:You're almost like a flying squirrel.
SPEAKER_05:It looks like a flying squirrel. Right. So apparently there are some athletes who might be trying to cheat by making the area around their genitals larger so that there's more surface area to catch the wind. And apparently, the way that the suits are designed, if you can get that area a little bit wider and things like that, you can apparently add more distance to your. That's a wild that it would be so apparently there's multiple ways that people are doing this. One of the ways is by injecting your penis with substances to make it like larger so that the area. This one's gonna be explicit or this podcast. Um, I mean, that's a podcast.
SPEAKER_01:It's all I'm sure it's all over the area.
SPEAKER_05:But anyway, it's I was like, this is a wild story.
SPEAKER_01:Whoa.
SPEAKER_05:So I don't think it's been confirmed yet, but apparently there's like this talk that athletes are trying to do this to get a competitive advantage, jeez, and so that their suit has more area, and yeah.
SPEAKER_01:I was thinking you were gonna say that, like, oh, they're like padding the suits or like right.
SPEAKER_05:Well, it's kind of like that.
SPEAKER_01:Because like, how could injecting your penis make enough difference that you have more surface to go further and ski jump? I mean, we could we could probably look up this right now, but it's I mean, it must it's gonna be more funny to just I mean, maybe they're really injecting it and it's like I think they are really live.
SPEAKER_05:I think they're trying to like make that would hurt.
SPEAKER_01:I mean it's like swelling.
SPEAKER_05:The length at which people go to cheat is wild.
SPEAKER_01:It's crazy. Didn't they say that about like Lance Armstrong? He was like, like for them to to find the like winner of his race that was the winner, like by the person who wasn't doping, they had to go to like the 34th person because everybody else was doping.
SPEAKER_05:It's like yeah, people just did it. The length at which, no pun intended, people are going.
SPEAKER_01:Good God. Penis gate to get that gold medal in ski jumping, which like everyone's gonna forget.
SPEAKER_05:No one's gonna know.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no one's even gonna know.
SPEAKER_05:I mean, I shouldn't say that. There's probably a huge ski jumping community, but somewhere as there are uh what do you got there, Josh?
SPEAKER_04:Official stance corner Google AI. The International Ski and Snowboard Federation has dismissed the reports as wild rumors with no concrete evidence. Really?
SPEAKER_01:But that's what they said about every kind of doping.
SPEAKER_05:So the fact that it was even a gate, but now it's wildly irresponsible for me to bring it up.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I honestly, penis. It's so outlandish, it almost feels like it has to be true.
SPEAKER_05:I don't know. I haven't been following it close enough to know that it's now already being dismissed as rumor.
SPEAKER_01:So crazy. Okay, what's the second story?
SPEAKER_05:So the second story, I and I say this one for a second because you I feel like you'd probably enjoy this one a little bit more. And I think this happened today. The bronze medalist in biathlon, do you know what biathlon is?
SPEAKER_07:No.
SPEAKER_05:So biathlon is that event where you are cross-country skiing and then you stop and you have like a rifle on your back and you shoot like targets, and then you get up and then you cross-country skiing, you know? Okay, so apparently the bronze the guy wins the bronze, and in an interview with the press after his win, he's like tearing up and welling up. I didn't see the video, but I read some of the quotes. Apparently, he used that as the forum to talk about how much he regrets cheating on his girlfriend.
SPEAKER_01:Oh my god.
SPEAKER_06:And then the A like broke up like very close to the Olympics, and so it was almost like him saying, like, God, I hope we can get back together.
SPEAKER_05:And like, I made such a mistake, and she's a little vibe. And I'm not laughing because I mean, obviously, like breaking up with somebody is it can be heart-wrenching, but the fact that he used the forum, he's like, It's been a really long week, and my head hasn't really been in the Olympics. He used like his post-race con press conference to like talk about the fact that he cheated.
SPEAKER_01:One last oh my god, and they broke up. Wow. So I I mean, God, it's like it almost makes you think like to have the ambition to become an Olympic athlete, you gotta be gotta have kind of like a screw loose.
unknown:A little bit.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, and I'm a therapist saying that like yeah, I'm playfully, but like, come on.
SPEAKER_05:You're working your whole life for this moment, and then it just turns into you welling up and crying and snotty and saying, I gotta be I gotta get her back.
SPEAKER_06:Like God.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. I forget which country he's from. I believe it's a Scandinavian country. Wow. Um, but yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Jeez Louise.
SPEAKER_05:So see the storylines of the Olympics, not even the events.
SPEAKER_01:Because it was.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, I mean, don't even watch the Olympics for the Olympics, watch it for the drama.
SPEAKER_01:For like the tea.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Oh my god. Well, I had seen an influencer talking about two different, they weren't American Olympians, but two different female Olympians, like maybe one like silver and bronze or something, and their male partners got on stage to propose to them. Okay. And she was a little like, this is their moment as women. Like, get the hell out of your stop making it your moment. Right. Like to the partners. And I was like, oh, I totally get what she's saying. Like, I kind of agreed. I also think it's like so cheesy to propose to someone like on camera or whatever, personally. But yeah, it was a little bit like let her like achieve this thing as a woman with the other women on the stage instead of like hurrying those other women off and like proposing. It's like a little bit ridiculous.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:But then hearing this story, that knocks those clean out of the water.
SPEAKER_05:He's a Norwegian biathlete, Sterla Home Lagreed. Oh my god, I'm gonna have to watch that six months ago I met the love of my life. This is a quote the world's most beautiful, sweetest person. Now he's saying this after he literally competed in this event and got a medal, right? So it's not like this is like an interview. Right.
SPEAKER_01:Like it's like his thinking speech.
SPEAKER_05:And three months ago I made the biggest mistake of my life and cheated on her. I'm not quite sure what I'm trying to say by saying this now, but sport has taken a back seat in recent days. I wish I could share this with her.
SPEAKER_01:Did anyone like the comments?
SPEAKER_05:I hope you know, I haven't seen the video of it, but um I gotta watch. He said, I hope that committing social suicide might show how much I love her. I have nothing to lose.
SPEAKER_04:I mean, it's like a Nathan for you.
SPEAKER_01:It's totally, it's so cringe, I can barely hear about it. It's it's so horrendous because it's like it's almost like would be better if she dumped him. It would be like more like sweet or something. It's like hue, not only like ended the sabotage.
SPEAKER_05:God, like I'm just I've been in my head. I got the bronze, I'm so happy about it. But like I've been in my head because my partner cheated on me and broke up with me, and now I'm yeah, that would have a little bit of a different feel. Maybe not the right time to put it out there, but that would definitely have a different feel than I made the worst mistake of my life. I cheated on her.
SPEAKER_01:Oh my god. I've a penny for her thoughts.
SPEAKER_05:Social suicide. Yeah. Hopefully, I get her back.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, hopefully the social suicide like makes me like a desirable partner to her since I cheated on her and now like embarrass myself on TV. Now she's gonna be so interested in being with me. Oh god. And it's like 10 to one ish this woman got back together with him, he would just cheat on her again.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And then he'd probably like cry about it somewhere else.
SPEAKER_06:Like it just in four years when he wins the silver. Oh god.
SPEAKER_01:It's like the way to get her back isn't that, it's like probably go to therapy, figure out why you did that.
SPEAKER_05:Like what? So a lot's been happening in the last, but I had to bring those two things in because you know the Olympics doesn't happen that often, and there's so many great stories of like perseverance and things like that, but yeah, these are just sometimes more fun to talk about. Totally, totally. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Anyway, God, and you know, I am loving So watch the video. Yeah, I'm gonna watch that video for sure. Um, I'm loving the athletes who are talking openly about their like ambivalence about representing the US, yeah. I think that's been so nice, right? You know, and it seems like they're really I've only heard like good things in that area, good things to me anyway. For sure. So I love that. But violently changing topics. One thing I wanted to talk about was which I watched a while ago. It's not at the top of its like, or it's not at the whatever zenith of its popularity, but the show heated rivalry.
SPEAKER_05:Well, but that's a sports-related show.
SPEAKER_01:Well, yeah, exactly. It's sports, it's a winter sport, it's hockey. And I mean, everybody knows what it is, but it's like a love story, like a pretty heated love story about two male hockey players in like a it's like a fake, it's not the NHL, they call it like the HNL or something, you know what I mean? Like, but it's the NHL, the NHL, and they like change all the team names, but like you can like guess what they are. It's not like the Stanley Cup, it's like the Prospect Cup or whatever. But um it's spoiler alert, so good. Yeah, everybody's raving about it. I have not watched it. It's so good, and it's like the beginning of it is a little more like sex forward, you know. At the beginning it's like steamy and it stays that way throughout, but then you know, I'm like crying. I'm like, this is like the greatest love story ever told. And I was I'm so impressed with it because it's like I feel like it's a real a feat for like creating such like a pure love story that like straight people, gay people, people of all different like sexual orientations, genders, whatever, feel this like connection to this and feel this like really intense sentimentality for the characters while also like finding them all hot. There's like both like objectifying and taking them really seriously happening at the same time in this.
SPEAKER_05:No, this is all things I've just heard because I haven't watched the show and I don't know much about it. It's it does not take place though present day.
SPEAKER_01:No, it takes place during the Obama 2005 or something administration, yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Which was intentional from what somebody else was talking about for some reason, that it was intentionally done back then and not present day. I wonder why the person say I we didn't talk long enough to understand it, but there was like some intentionality behind that.
SPEAKER_01:Like they didn't want to get the Trump resurgence of like the Manosphere kind of like I don't know.
SPEAKER_05:I don't know, but that was an interesting thing that it's not done presently. And also the NHL is notorious for not being inclusive.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. Well, someone I was hearing someone on a podcast talking about how like in today's world, like the places where there's probably like the most rampant homophobia is like sports, like men's sports. I'm sure.
SPEAKER_05:So that's so that's also why it's so but and the NHL is like very the players are extremely outspoken about it. Wow in terms of like not willing. I remember I think it was a couple years ago, the players were like, We're not gonna play for the nights dedicated to like inclusivity. Like they were like, We're not gonna play. And they're not gonna wear like jerseys that have rainbows on them. Like they're very outspoken.
SPEAKER_00:Oh my god, I didn't know.
SPEAKER_05:Oh, yeah. It's like toxic.
SPEAKER_00:That's horrendous.
SPEAKER_05:Yes, I'm not saying all NHL players, but as a business, it is not progressive at all in that area.
SPEAKER_01:Exactly back then.
SPEAKER_05:Well, and also just I think because they could have done it with any sport, right? But it's intentional, most likely, as it's like one of the most homophobic business ventures.
SPEAKER_01:Totally. It's so good. Oh my god. And you know what I was thinking is I was watching it, I'm like, I like I like romantic movies and books and whatever. Like, I I do find them like I in a way, they're just like joy, you know, like there's so many, yeah, you know, celebrated literature that like when you sit down at night to read it, it's just tough. I know we've talked about that on this pod, but it's like so sad or so dark or whatever. And I think sometimes like romance is like just let yourself be happy, which is so fun. Definitely. And I really was thinking, I'm like, you know what? Like every like cis hetero love story, like these days it just feels like a lot of them are kind of the same. And like it's so nice to see something like different. Like, I found that so much more like joyful to see like two men. And I think a big difference too in the show, I do think, is that the choice of actors because I think for so long a lot of like gay stories were like they'd pick like two straight male actors, and I think it's meaningful to pick men that are either gay or bisexual, that like are like enthusiastic in the scenes, have actual chemistry, yeah. Yeah, it feels really authentic, and you know, I'm like sobbing by the end of it. So it's on the list.
SPEAKER_05:I have to watch it. Yeah, you gotta watch it. Sarah or has been talking about it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. Josh hasn't watched it yet, but I would watch it with you.
SPEAKER_04:I've heard you watching from the other room, though. Season three.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, season three, season one point three.
SPEAKER_05:Season one cubed.
SPEAKER_04:That's when you watch season one for a third time.
SPEAKER_05:When you watch something that you've seen before with Josh, are you like looking over at him, waiting for the reaction? Probably to such an annoying degree, I bet. It starts to feel like it's a performance. Are you like, are you like on the edge of your seat? Like, it but wait.
SPEAKER_01:Like, wasn't that funny?
SPEAKER_02:Wasn't that really funny?
SPEAKER_05:Wait, you're not laughing as much as you should be laughing at.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, that's hopefully.
SPEAKER_04:I'll start to do accents. Like, I love this moves. Did you just stare at him?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I just stare. I don't watch the movie, I just watch him. But it is true for me that like if I show someone something I've already seen, it's like I'm seeing it again with fresh eyes.
SPEAKER_05:No, that can be definitely yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, you were saying that with your kids. Not that I think necessarily your kids should watch Hated Rivalry, but No, no, no.
SPEAKER_05:But it it is like watching some of the stuff that we grew up with, Sarah and I, with them and them seeing it for the first time, it definitely makes it like oh my god, I've seen this movie a hundred times, but like I'm laughing so much harder now because they're like dying laughing with it.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, that's so fun.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, it is fun. That's so fun, especially when they get older and they're starting to watch movies that you enjoy more than like animation ones, you know.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, totally.
SPEAKER_05:Which is good.
SPEAKER_01:You know what? Speaking of that, I maybe I don't know if we said this on the spot, but we show a long time ago, or like whatever, a half a year ago, six months ago, we showed my niece B movie to just a B movie. So she like truly hated it. The Jerry sign. Okay, yes. And the only thing she liked was like there was like a part where he's like flying around the toilet, and she just thought that was like the funniest thing ever. It was like the most lowbrow joke. Totally like the rest was like just way too adult for her.
SPEAKER_05:That's what kids, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And then that scene came on, and she's like busting a gut, laughing so hard, so cute.
SPEAKER_05:I do like though that children seem to really just like anything, yeah. Because sometimes we'll go to a movie or watch one at home, and I'm like, that was garbage. I mean, I'm thinking that, but then they're like, it was great, like it was so good, and I was like, all it was was noises and lights and like flashing. It it just was there was nothing there. Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. But to see them like just be enthusiastic about it and not have such a critical mindset with it is a little bit refreshing because it's like, oh my god, I could point out a billion things wrong with that movie, and they're just like, it was so funny, it was so this, and it's like, okay, wow, I need to calm down a little bit, yeah. You know, poking the holes in it.
SPEAKER_01:I know it's like I so quickly go to like critiques of things, and it's like just enjoy it. They just enjoy it, like let go. Yeah, I love that. I love your kids saying, like, that was so funny.
SPEAKER_05:Like the dogman movie. I don't even know what that is. Dogman's like a book series, and it's your face.
SPEAKER_06:It's it's exactly what it what the title says.
SPEAKER_05:It's a it's a cop who has a dog, he gets into an accident, they both do, and then they sew the dog's head to the guy's body. So it's he's a dog man.
SPEAKER_02:And then he's the rest of the movie. And then he's a cop.
SPEAKER_06:He's like, he's still a cop, he's dogman. But it's a book series, and and uh so I took Shane to it whenever it came out like a a year and a half ago. I think we need some tissues. Yeah, we need a crash card on here.
SPEAKER_02:I'm dying. That's ridiculous. I guess I love it too.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, you love it, and and one of his like one of the robots in there is 80 HD, so 80.
SPEAKER_06:Oh, exactly. You know where it's going.
SPEAKER_04:Because I have 80 HD TVs, yeah.
SPEAKER_05:It's ADHD. So it just is like but I was in the movie theater, like just I don't know, pinching myself pinching myself, like just like I just need to feel anything other than this movie. And when we left, I mean, Shane was just like, it was amazing. I mean, he was so happy, he was so happy and excited, and it's just like okay. I know. Yeah, it was released. I don't know when it was released, but you can definitely stream it now. And I remember seeing it on one of our platforms, like whatever it was, and I was like, oh fuck. Like, I don't I hope they don't see that. I know I can't watch that again.
SPEAKER_02:Oh my God.
SPEAKER_01:I know it's like really trying to steer kids like our nieces to like things that aren't terrible.
SPEAKER_05:But the author of it, he I mean, it's a it's volumes. I mean, it's a book series that's like wow, it's it's like in comic book, it's like panel form, so it's it's you know like a graphic novely type of thing. But I mean, that guy's making so much money. I mean, uh he has another book series too, I can't, or a few book series like that, but Captain Underpants, right?
SPEAKER_04:Yes, Captain Underpants. Is it like Dav or Dave Pilkey? Dave Pilke. Yeah, I I remember I read Captain Underpants at My Barber.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. He didn't have any dogman?
SPEAKER_01:Wait, so was this the first dogman movie and all the others are gonna get made?
SPEAKER_05:I hope not.
SPEAKER_01:I was like buckled up. I hope there's not a whole hopefully the next one's made when your kids are.
SPEAKER_05:Luckily, there's enough time in between those where yeah, they'll probably lose interest in it. But anyway, so that was an example.
SPEAKER_01:Oh my god.
SPEAKER_05:But he did rivalry back then.
SPEAKER_01:He did rivalry, so I highly recommend.
SPEAKER_05:Dogman, maybe take a pass. Yeah, take a pass on dogman.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, other things. I mean, I don't know if any of these.
SPEAKER_05:I wish you would have been like having something to drink. That would have been a spit take.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, literally. That would have been great to have an Instagram of you doing a spit take. No. Dogman, your the best was your face when you said dogman.
SPEAKER_01:Like in physical pain.
SPEAKER_04:It was physical pain.
SPEAKER_01:Oh my god.
SPEAKER_04:Well, okay. A sequel is already in the work.
SPEAKER_05:Don't say it.
SPEAKER_01:Does it project when it's coming out?
SPEAKER_05:Now, if you see my kids, please don't mention this that there's a sequel.
SPEAKER_01:My lips are sealed.
SPEAKER_04:Early industry speculation suggests a possible return to theaters around 2027.
SPEAKER_01:Dear Shane will still be into it, maybe. Wes may be out of it.
SPEAKER_05:Well, Wes didn't go, and I don't think he really had interest in it. It was one of those like days where he had something going on, and I was like, Oh, I was like, you just want to like catch a movie? Shane was like, Yeah. And then I was like, Oh, yeah, well, dogman's out. We've read those books, didn't know what I was getting into.
SPEAKER_01:Oh no, yeah. What other options would there have been for him? Anything?
SPEAKER_05:Probably not that many because usually there's only like one or two kids' movies out like at a time. You're lucky if there's two, right? You know, and especially this was maybe a year ago, a year and a half ago, so he was even younger, so there's even less options.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, maybe anyway. Okay, so in my little cooking corner, a couple things, or I guess we could call it like a food corner.
SPEAKER_04:Callie's cooking corner.
SPEAKER_01:Callie's cooking corner. I made this Allison Roman. Oh, you know what they finally got at Trader Joe's? They got chuck roast. And they must have literally gotten it the day I was there because I went to the counter to put it down, and the guy like ringing me up and the guy bagging, there were actually two guys there. They didn't know what it was. Both, they were both like chuck roast. They're like, when when did we get we haven't had this in 10 years? And I was like, I know. I always look to see if they have like bigger cuts of meat there. Right. It's back, it's back, so I got it. And I made I made it's a she has Alison Roman has a lamb and potato stew, but I actually made it with beef. I should just make it with lamb one day, but it's like you never really see a big lamb at the store. I'd have to go to a butcher, probably.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. Polina.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, polina, which I think polina is like kind of expensive.
SPEAKER_05:It is, yeah. Yeah. I mean, you're paying for the quality, but it is expensive.
SPEAKER_01:It's good quality meat. So I made this and it was pretty good. You make it overnight for 10 hours in the oven. So you leave the oven on all night, which I know some people are not usable with.
SPEAKER_05:Turn it on this time.
unknown:I did.
SPEAKER_01:I did, and we both smelled it in the middle of the night. Both of us had to go to the bathroom in the middle of the night and smelled it. And it smelled great. I bet it did. And I wondered if the neighbors could smell it because sometimes when our neighbor over there cooks, I can smell it.
SPEAKER_05:So you made it and then it's ready in the morning. So you had it for breakfast.
SPEAKER_01:We had a little bit for breakfast. And then I put it actually in the fridge because then some of the screw the fat off, yeah. Although it was hard. Yeah. It was a little hard to get all the fat off. So next time, what I'm gonna do is I'm not gonna like mix it up before I put it in the fridge so that it's easier to get those big chunks of fat out of there. But then we had it later. I didn't know if my younger brother was gonna come over. Shout out to John, the other John. The other John for the Super Bowl? For the Super Bowl. He didn't end up coming over. So Josh and I just had the lamb stew, slash, beef stew, and it was great.
SPEAKER_05:Well, that's a good Super Bowl. I know dinner, a stew.
SPEAKER_01:Totally.
SPEAKER_05:That's nice.
SPEAKER_01:That was kind of my mindset. Like, if we do watch the game, that's old. What'd you guys eat for the game?
SPEAKER_05:Just pizza. Easy for the kids. We went over to friends' house so the kids could play, watch a little bit of the game. Um, but it was pretty boring. Yeah. The game. The game, yeah. But yeah, we just had pizza because that's just easy. You had gluten-free. Gluten-free? Nice pizza pizza makes it, it has a gluten-free crust.
SPEAKER_01:So nice. And you ordered it or did you bring it over?
SPEAKER_05:We picked it up.
SPEAKER_01:So I feel like, oh, the other thing that happened is Josh and I we were like wanting to find a sushi place to go on Saturday because we like haven't gotten sushi in a while. And I like found this place. I didn't even tell Josh how I found it. I don't even remember how I found it. I was just kind of like, oh, here's just like a place for sushi in like the West Town area. It's called Hero Izakaya. So it's fully not a sushi place. It's an isakaya, which like they had like only the only sushi they had was like four hand rolls, you know, just like one little thing like that. So I fucked up the sushi getting, but it was really cool in there. It was very like sexy, and like the lighting was crazy, and it was a cool, like big circular bar that went around the whole place. Nice. The staff was really nice, the drinks were really good, and the food was really good. So it it really worked out, but I truly was like, I can't believe I told you I'd find us a sushi place, and there's like almost no sushi on this menu. That's all right. What a goof. That's all right. It was girls' night. Oh, yeah, it was kind of girls' night in there. It was like very like a lot of tables with yeah, which I think sushi is definitely a very good, like girl's night, you know, like we're doing it.
SPEAKER_04:So we do have sushi. I love when John gets all femme.
SPEAKER_01:When John queens out, yeah. It was like a lot of girls with the same exact like blonde highlights or like blonde, you know, die job. They're chunky white sneakers, yeah. Fur faux fur, maybe real fur, but probably faux fur. And like kind of looking the exact same, going to sit down at a table.
SPEAKER_05:And they're like, and then after this, we're watching heated rivalry.
SPEAKER_01:They went home for a heated rivalry marriage.
SPEAKER_05:Oh, seasons one through three.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:They just right when they get to the end, they turn it around. It's funny, like when you're at a restaurant and you're like noticing, like, oh, there's kind of like a theme. Yeah. We when we were at a restaurant a couple weeks ago, somebody got great news, and all our table could talk about was who's gonna go over there and ask them what the like news was, or like what are they celebrating? Because everybody was so happy, and it seemed like they had just gotten it, like while they were there in real time. And so we were like, what do you think they're celebrating? And I think we asked when we were leaving, and it came to be that one of the people that was sitting there, their like daughter, got into the college she wanted to get into. Oh, well, okay, or got the acceptance letter or something like that. So it was like they found out and which was really cool. But sometimes when you're at a restaurant, you can only pay I can only pay attention to like what's going on around me. Totally.
SPEAKER_01:Well, yeah, because like we I feel like what we'll do a lot is we'll try to guess like what number date some couples are on. Because sometimes it's like it's interesting, like the vibes, like or what breakup they're on. Literally. Well, some it's like their dress, their their dress is totally different, like one's overdress, one's under dress, and you're like, okay, so that's probably like a first or second date. Because they're not like, you know, they're not living together where like the one partner's like, that's what you're wearing, or like sometimes like the body language or how much they order or whatever.
SPEAKER_05:I kind of like seeing when two people are like annoyed with each other.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Or like pre-fight, or maybe, or maybe in the midst of I don't know. There's something that's probably evil, but kind of seeing that happening in real time where you're trying to contain it.
SPEAKER_01:Well, yeah, and you're trying to it's like a train wreck.
SPEAKER_05:You just can't turn away from it.
SPEAKER_01:Well, the news thing would have like sent me over the edge. I'd be like, someone doesn't have cancer anymore.
SPEAKER_05:Like wanting to know. Like to know.
SPEAKER_01:Like, what are they celebrating? What's so great? Let me join in. Let's go. We're just celebrating being together as girls.
SPEAKER_05:I love it. Us girls.
SPEAKER_01:Oh my god. Okay, well, maybe we'll move into our topic for today.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So yeah, tell us about the chessboard metaphor.
SPEAKER_05:The chessboard, it's here.
SPEAKER_01:We have a chessboard here for those of you who are watching on video or maybe a clip.
SPEAKER_05:Well, we talked about, I think we've we've done one metaphor specifically before, right? Yes. So we did the uh unwanted or unwelcome party guest. Yeah. Yeah. So this is another metaphor that comes from acceptance and commitment therapy or the big book.
SPEAKER_03:Yes.
SPEAKER_05:Um, and the idea with this is laying the groundwork for, you know, as people, we get really wrapped up in in our thoughts or in our inner experiences. And we feel like when we have thoughts, we have to like counteract them, right? So vis-a-vis like thought challenging, like I have a negative thought, so then I have to have a positive thought in order to neutralize it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:But every time I use a positive thought, there's gonna be another negative thought that probably comes, right? And then when I have another negative thought, I could try to get more positive, but sometimes then my negative thoughts just keep going. And so there's like this constant battle internally. And so the idea of this metaphor is to get people to notice when they start to get into that battle that's going on, or even that game of chess where it's like, okay, I gotta get rid of certain thoughts or get or avoid them or control them. The idea being, you know, like it's like a game of chess, like I got to take certain pieces off the board, right? Like, yeah, if I'm one side of the chess board, then I'm the positive ones, and let's say the ones I'm up against are the negative ones, so I got to get those pieces off the board. But the thing with the mind is that pieces will just continue to come, right? Right. And so it's almost like a feudal enterprise. So this is a metaphor, and I'll read through it, but it's the idea that instead of getting wrapped up in that or noticing when we get wrapped up in that, is there some use or some effectiveness in just trying to observe that, almost step outside of that and just allow our thoughts to kind of do what they're doing?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:And in observing it, we might not get so wrapped up in trying to change.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Right. Like what we're thinking, or we're just learning how to be with what we're thinking more and like learn how to relate to it more.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:I don't know if that's a good kind of intro to it.
SPEAKER_01:I agree. And yeah, I'd love let's when you read that, then we can talk about where this is helpful, like in anyone's like daily process or therapy process to think about this metaphor.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. But yeah, tell us what so this one, and this is written a lot of different ways, but this one's from Stephen Hayes uh from 1999, and there's like YouTube videos and things like that. But so, you know, if you're with somebody, and it's just useful for us to think about, anybody to think about, but when you're with somebody, these metaphors help, as I've mentioned before, because like you're not bound by rules or anything. You can get creative with it, it's just a different way to think about it. So imagine a chessboard, and on one side, the pieces are all of your positive thoughts and feelings. And on the other side, the pieces are all of your negative thoughts and feelings. So we go through life desperately trying to move our positive pieces across and wipe off all of the negative pieces. But the problem is there are an infinite number of positive and negative pieces. No matter how many negative pieces you wipe off, more will appear. And another problem is the positive pieces attract negative pieces. You move forward, the positive piece, I'm a good parent. And it immediately attracts the negative piece, no, you're not. What about the way you yelled at your kids last night? So we go through life wasting a lot of time and energy trying to win this battle that can never be won. Or we learn how to be more like the chess board. The board is in intimate contact with all of the chess pieces, but it's not involved in the battle. And there's a part of us that operates like this chess board that enables us to step out of the battle with our thoughts and feelings and give them plenty of space to move around.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. I love that.
SPEAKER_05:So the idea this comes from that idea of like the observer self or self as context. So our thoughts and everything is the content because the content of our lives is always always going to change. Like our feelings are always gonna change, our thoughts are always gonna change, our thoughts may repeat for sure, right? Or we might have the same one over and over again. But that's content. But the context, we are the context where that kind of plays out.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Right. So you've been Kelly, though you've changed and you continue to change, you've been Kelly your whole life.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, totally.
SPEAKER_05:But your inner experience is constantly changing. And so if we can embody this idea, if I can step outside of my inner experiences that give me so much whatever, anxiety, fear, and just try to observe them more, we might not get so wrapped up or like fused with them, right? So it's like we're the board. We can watch these pieces move, but we don't have to like get involved with it as much to try. And this is not to say that thought challenging can't be useful or reframing or things like that, but I think it can give people a sense of relief and and even empowerment of like, oh yeah, I don't really have to control that stuff, right? I can just sit with it more. I don't really have to do anything.
SPEAKER_01:So well, in a way, this very metaphor is an alternative interpretation, right? A thought challenge itself, right? When you might be caught up in that, like, I need to get rid of these negative things, these painful emotions, these uh suffering thoughts, intrusive thoughts. That's what I need to do to be better. There's no other way for me to be better. We're kind of then pausing and exploring, like, and noticing like in that moment, you're like the player trying to get your positive pieces to be the negative pieces. And really, like, what if you thought of yourself as the board?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And there doesn't need to be you don't win the game, you just house the game.
SPEAKER_06:Right.
SPEAKER_01:Any kind of emotion, negative, positive, you know, painful, comfortable, exciting, whatever you have the space for.
SPEAKER_05:And what's interesting about this metaphor is there's another layer that when you start to bring in, it really like can unlock how people try to get involved in the chess game. Meaning, let's say even in that example, let's say like, I'm a good parent. No. And then the piece moves and says, You yelled at your kid. Well, in order to get that piece off the board, that might actually propel me into a behavior. Oh, well, you know what? Then the next time my kid does something that maybe, yeah, I don't want to yell at them, but maybe I need to reprimand them actually, or you know, I need to like set a boundary, I'm not gonna do that because that's what a bad parent does. So when you add the layer of behavior on, as a behavior is a way to like remove pieces or even add pieces, yeah, then you're getting into like control or escape moves. Yeah. Right? Totally. Or even think about it, and I know we've had practitioners on here who deal more with OCD, but think about behaviors where it's like, oh, if to get rid of this thought, I need to engage in a certain behavior, a checking behavior or something as a way to control that thought. Well, that thought's gonna continue to come. It's not about like doing a behavior to get rid of thoughts, you know, like that type of thing. So there's another layer of this where it's like I'm trying to increase the good and decrease the bad through my behavior, or sometimes it's both. I'm trying to do both at the same time, right? Because I don't want to have all these bad thoughts or these bad chess pieces. So I up the good ones. And another great example would be like people pleasing.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:If I have the thought I'm a bad person in my mind, in order for me to beat that thought in that game, I need to hear more thoughts or have more thoughts that I'm a good person.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:So I'm gonna just try to please people no matter what. Because that's what's gonna counteract those thoughts, right? So there's another layer of it of the observing, but also like, but what do you do in those thoughts? How are you trying to manipulate that game in your mind? And uh do those behaviors even move you towards meaning or value in your life?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's like how is treating yourself as that player trying to win? How's that going? How does that go? Do you feel like you're winning or have won? You know, and even if you do like win a game, yeah, there'll be a million more and there'll be plenty you'll lose. Yeah. What's really working? I think this metaphor actually is applicable too to like contacting your self-worth, which is what we're talking about, right? The self, when we contact the self, we're in touch with the worthiness. It's that they're one in the same. But you know, the idea that like to to be worthy, I have to push and win and be good in all these ways, behave in a good, quote unquote, good way. And it may be that like connecting to your self-worth is more like you're the board and you have all these feelings, urges, thoughts. And when you remember to just like let them play out within your body, that's actually the experience of self-worth. Sometimes it's hard to conceptualize, but often that's the feeling, right? Presence does feel like self-worth.
SPEAKER_05:Or even yeah, if you can just sit with it, you can even decide whether you want to engage with the thought or not.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Right.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you have spacious space.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, the board is like there's open space on the board. And if you're the board and can allow that space to be there, then maybe sometimes you do engage with yeah, thoughts in different ways. But when we're just so hyper focused on like that's a bad piece, remove it, I gotta keep my pieces on, you know, like that's when we lose complete sight of the fact that there's a larger kind of thing going on. Yeah. I even think about this with certain parenting things where just the idea, like that's kind of omnipresent, I think, as parents, to have that thought of like, am I doing enough or am I a good parent? Or and if I don't kind of sit and just allow that to be there and just quickly react to it. A lot of times I take like the easy way out, or you know, or I take like the path of least resistance because I'm like, I feel so bad. I feel like a terrible parent right now. So I'm just gonna let them do whatever they want. And it's like sometimes you do that, and that's fair, tone of the reserves, but I'm not allowing myself the space to be like, okay, that's just the thought. Yeah, I don't have to beat it, I don't have to like counteract it. I don't like if I can just have that thought, even if it's there still, can I make a decision that's informed in this moment?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Which is hard. Sometimes I even use humor too, like with like sometimes they're not bad thoughts, but just thoughts are like, oh, people are uncomfortable, yeah, like in this situation. And so I need to make a I need to make them comfortable.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:And so my like control move there is like, or to get that piece off the board is like, I gotta make a joke, or I have to, you know.
SPEAKER_01:Get rid of that. I have to get rid of it.
SPEAKER_05:And sometimes that's fine. We we talked about using humor, context is important, humor is funny and it's great. And and sometimes it's like I don't have to get involved in my thought process kind of telling me like this person's uncomfortable, it's your job to make them comfortable. Yeah, so you have to like do something.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I feel like this. I have this a lot with like thinking someone or suspecting someone is mad at me, you know, feeling like to be okay, I've gotta like get them to like me again by like being really nice. Sometimes it's so hard to tell when that's me like using control moves and trying to beat the game, or when it's value aligned. Like there are times that's really challenging.
SPEAKER_05:Well, I think the piece can be there, but it's like, what's your relationship to the piece? Are you really trying to get that off the board? Or is that piece guiding you in having a conversation with somebody where it's like, did we have a rupture? Uh, you know, I'm feeling some tension. Does there something need to be addressed? Or right? I I don't think it always has to lean into like I have to. I think it can be useful to like engage with the piece.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:But maybe not necessarily like leaning in so heavily to get Rid of it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Trying to control it. There's a practice to right. If I get this sense someone's mad at me, have this thought, someone's mad at me, this person's mad at me. You know, there's like a period at the end of their text or something.
SPEAKER_05:Or sure.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Sure. Or bubbles and then no response.
SPEAKER_01:Oh my God. It's getting me distressed. Yeah, totally. But it's like I notice that if I can notice like what is like the peace coming up in me.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_01:Right. Like when I there's like the thought that they're mad at me, that's one piece. And maybe connected to it is like the feeling of shame or fear that's with that. Getting in touch with the self, otherwise mind, right? This chess board part of me is like really noticing the pieces without trying to get one to win and one to lose, like get rid of one, pump one up. It's more of that, like, can I make allowing space for them? Just notice them, be with them, not try to control them.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_01:And then when you notice, right, like I feel this like fear and shame. And I'm thinking that they're mad at me. You know, the question might be like, can I feel those feelings, have that thought, notice that thought and go to that place of like what it, where is that innate wisdom, right? When you're holding that spaciousness, the wise mind is there, the values come up. And you can even ask yourself, right, like, is there something for me to repair that I'm aware of? Right. If so, then it may be worth repairing, apologizing, or asking them if they need something. Or oftentimes I'll recognize, like, there isn't anything I'm aware of. Like, no rule I broke, no concrete idea that I need to repair. It's kind of more a vague sense, which probably means I just need to be that board. Yeah. Sit with it, sit with that feeling. And that can be painful. Definitely. And like the more you really allow the sitting with it, it actually can be easier to hold. Because the self, the board has the ability, it has the bandwidth. Right. And it's more like remembering the board is there and you're the board. Yeah. You know, I heard someone once describe it as like that steel bar that runs through you and it's like always with you. That part of you that retains through everything, which all of us have experienced, like you were saying, we've experienced ourselves as the same person throughout every experience. Like that's the part of you that has all of the space.
SPEAKER_05:And you're you through it all, right? There's that meditation that embodies kind of getting people to be the observer. And I always find that very, no matter how many times I hear that meditation is very empowering. To me, it's like think about fears or emotions that you struggled with that have resolved. Think about the ways you thought about things in one way, and now you don't think about them. It's that idea where it's like we get so wrapped up in our internal experience, thinking that that's just the only experience that we, yeah, there's so many things in our life where it's come and gone, and and we're still somehow this same person through all of that, all of those storms we've gotten through. And so I don't know. I always find that very empowering and this idea very empowering where it's like, God, when we get so wrapped up in like trying to change everything internally, we're missing out on like this idea that like if I don't have to put so much effort and be so effortful in that.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, totally striving. I mean, it's like striving, right? And you know, like that self-as-context metaphor, which maybe or uh meditation that maybe we'll read at some point. But I love that part that says like think about issues that you worried about that are now resolved. Like it was the same you that felt so weighed down by that.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, or like you would never get out of it, or that it's never gonna be different, or that was still you.
SPEAKER_01:That was still you and it resolved, and like noticing that infinite you that's like there. And you know, like it's and this is making me think about parts work and like how this applies. Because really, like our parts are our protective parts are often really trying to get other parts off the board. That's where those like polarities of us come up, right? Like, you know, an avoidant part might really want to get rid of a um impulsive part, you know, or whatever. And often the work of like softening different parts of us is reminding and showing the parts like there is a self in here who can take this. There's a self in here that doesn't need this protection. And it's always been there, it's born with you. It's just kind of gently offering that idea, sort of like this metaphor. It's like a gentle, alternative way of viewing the movie. You know, like there's a self here who can do this. And sometimes that self then, you know, will show compassion to a part of you that's like a wound has been activated for, you know, or whatever. But yeah, like a lot of the healing is like remembering your own spaciousness, remember your wise mind.
SPEAKER_05:Right.
SPEAKER_01:Really, yeah.
SPEAKER_05:And also, and also what when you engage with the the pieces and you engage in that, like, what is it taking you away from? Because you could get very behavioral with it and kind of say, well, probably an easy example would be like anxiety. Like, well, I don't want that feeling, that's a piece. And so the way for me to get that piece off the board is to just not do the anxious thing, right? Because when we're anxious, we want to avoid things. So it's like, so I'm not gonna go there or I'm gonna stay home. And it's like, yes, there's always gonna be more anxiety pieces that show up for you. So it's like you can continue that battle if you want, but what are you missing out on?
SPEAKER_00:Totally, right?
SPEAKER_05:You're so stuck in this, like, well, I'm gonna avoid everything that makes me anxious, and it's like, okay, like that works to a certain extent. Again, we're not judging it as like bad, but it's like that is taking you out of what to see outside of that, right? Like you're we're not able to see that that, yeah. If we can observe that urge to want to avoid, right? Yeah, if we can observe, well, what could I do to push myself? What other skills might I use to like go to something and be anxious? Well, now we're seeing outside of that battle, like there's more to life than just that kind of like interplay totally internally.
SPEAKER_01:It's like you're anxious going to a party, like you're saying in that example.
SPEAKER_05:Because Vern's gonna be there, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Wasn't that Murph. Murph.
SPEAKER_05:I said Vern.
SPEAKER_01:I love you, like Verners flipped it. Yeah, Verners, old Verney.
SPEAKER_05:But see, this is another thing where it's like if you were my client and if I had a better memory with you, you we could bring in this other metaphor. Oh, yeah, you do get anxious when you go to parties, right? Remember, we talked about MERV and how Merv shows up. So continue your thought. But this is the usefulness of metaphors when we work with what I feel like when we work with them is because if they land and it's something that really resonates, you can call back to that. Remember, we labeled MERV, right? You get anxious at these parties, right? Like that type of thing.
SPEAKER_01:And maybe you're in a moment where you're trying to beat MERV. Yeah, you're trying to get MERV off the board. And you know, it's like it's funny, like if you think about again in the parts work, we often say that like the parts beget exactly what they're trying to protect against. Meaning if you're afraid of feeling left out at a party, you might avoid it and then you feel left out and you feel lonely, you know, or you know, people please, right? You try to please everyone, but you usually end up feeling like you're pleasing no one.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_01:And we're exploring like, could there be something more peaceful or rich in your experience? What if we didn't try to control this? Could there be more vitality there? If you let Merv come to the party, or if you let Merv be on the board, be in the game. He can be in the game. He's a piece, he's a piece, and there are all these other pieces, and you actually do have the space for Merv. And I think so often it's like, I don't want to have him, I don't want him to be there. And that's true. It's like that's okay. We can notice that you really you don't want him there, okay. And he's there.
SPEAKER_05:That can be so empowering to even model, like have that parallel process in a session where it's like if people are not wanting to have certain thoughts of us just reflecting, well, we don't really have to do anything with it, we don't have to get rid of it. We can sit here, like if somebody, you know, a couple podcasts ago with like the idea of suicidal ideation, where it's like, I just can't have that thought. Well, that's like the chess when you're getting in the battle.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:The the game where it's like you get so tied up. I excuse me, I can't do things that that might elicit like me having it. And it's more about, well, why don't we just like try to sit with it and observe it? We don't have to do anything. And I think when patients have that, or they they can have that experience of just, oh, my therapist is not making me get rid of it or not pushing me to like do anything. And certainly we can do some gentle reframing or you know, but I think that again, that spaciousness or that openness to just no, it can be there and we can still have our session and let's check in in a little while about it if you're having these thoughts, right? Like we can still move in a different direction or a direction that's meaningful, and that thought could be there, right?
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:You don't have to get so tied up in it. And that's not to say we're minimizing like really distressing thoughts. Certainly we're addressing them, but I think it can be empowering to reflect that you don't have to do everything with every uncomfortable thought you have or emotion that you have, right? Yeah. Can you sit with it?
SPEAKER_01:It is amazing how many like skills and like premises and therapy are often like when you find stillness and you allow your experience just as it is, like what to do is naturally there. Your values rise to the surface. Sometimes you need a little help with that, but usually not that much.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:You know, you have this ability naturally to move yourself where you truly want to go, but there's so much noise that can get in the way. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:And I I've probably mentioned this before, but I remember in um some of my act trainings, the you know, one practitioner would would say, like, how with the clients that she was working with, like, how do you want to show up for yourself in this moment? Right? Like, we're sitting in this moment, you have all of these thoughts or all these like urges to like do things. We don't have to act on any of those. How do you want to show up in this moment, like for yourself, right? What's meaningful to you? What are the and a lot of times people know how they want to show up, but they're scared to do to show up in the way that's authentic to them.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:But I think people do more often than not know how they want to show up.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Like you're saying, that is meaningful. Right.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that awareness is there. And then it's really just like helping them like expand around what they see as a barrier. It's usually not actually a barrier. Right. And then in like more trauma work, often like one extra thing you do there is you help them see where maybe they felt this thing before and it felt really overwhelming then. And you might just care for them in that now. Give them care they didn't get, guide them in giving themselves compassion around that, expanding around that. You do a little more work with that, but it's the same principle. Instead of control, it's compassion and like space. Yeah, I love this metaphor. I think it's great.
SPEAKER_05:There's, you know, we talk about these things very poetically on this podcast. Sometimes metaphors don't land though, yeah, with people. So, because you can intro metaphors in different ways and you don't always have to read a script, but I remember introing it and being like, okay, so we're gonna talk about this metaphor and you know, game of chess. So in my mind, I'm thinking, well, I'm gonna ask this question and they're gonna answer it by saying, get pieces off the board. So I said, Well, what's you know, what's the goal of chess? And the person just looked at me and goes, To win. And I was like, okay, let's take a step back. Right, absolutely. But in my mind, I was thinking, okay, they're gonna say take pieces off the board, and then I'm gonna, you know, and yeah, it was just, I mean, that person was very open to the metaphor, but it was just funny. I was like, yeah, that makes sense.
SPEAKER_06:To win to pitch, yeah, to win the game.
SPEAKER_05:Um, so that was kind of funny where it's like, you know, you try different things, and I was like, okay, well, that's a learning experience. Like, not everybody's gonna say to get pieces off the board. Yeah, like they're gonna say to win the game, yeah, of course, right? Yeah. Um, do you have a favorite chess piece? You know, like I was just I was just gonna say a good thing about this metaphor is you don't have to know how to play chess for it.
SPEAKER_01:Right. And lucky for me, that's true because I don't actually know how to play. I mean, I'm gonna go by what I think is like the most aesthetically pleasing. What do you think? The queen?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's the queen.
SPEAKER_01:Definitely I love that crown. It's so pretty.
SPEAKER_05:It is. I was always either a knight guy just because of the horse, or I did really like I used to just call these castles. The rook the rook. The rook. But I also like the way that they moved across the board because they can go any direction, as many as they want, as long as it's straight. They can't go diagonal. So I always like the castles.
SPEAKER_01:Wow. The rooks. It's like you wonder like if there could be a metaphor for like, so what would a rook be? Would it be anxiety? Ooh. It's like the one that can move in the most directions, like, might be anxiety.
SPEAKER_05:Well, then that would be the queen. The queen can move as many spaces as she wants in any direction she wants.
SPEAKER_01:The queen.
SPEAKER_05:That's why she's now. I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure you don't want to give up your queen.
SPEAKER_01:You don't want to give up your queen.
SPEAKER_05:Very powerful piece.
SPEAKER_01:And you win. How do you win?
SPEAKER_05:Uh, you capture the king.
SPEAKER_01:You capture that. That's what checkmate is.
SPEAKER_05:Or somebody gives up. Yeah. Or if somebody doesn't have any moves, like if your king is trapped and any move they go, they would be taken. That would be checkmate.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_05:And I believe check is where you're putting them on notice that there is a move that they could make where you could capture them, but they still have an out.
SPEAKER_01:What if you don't say check when you put them in that position? Yeah, do you get disqualified?
SPEAKER_05:I think that's bad form.
SPEAKER_01:If you're like in a real chess match, you would get disqualified.
SPEAKER_05:I don't think a real chess player would not know when another chess player is in check.
unknown:Totally.
SPEAKER_05:I think that would. I mean, one, I think it's bad form. Two, I think it's pretty obvious to most chess players when but the casual game, right? You might I might not notice. Oh, whoops, I didn't say check because I didn't realize I was actually able to take it. I think that's if it's a friendly game, I think it's okay. Yeah. What about you, Josh? Any favorite pieces?
SPEAKER_04:The horse is so funny.
SPEAKER_05:The knight.
SPEAKER_01:The night. The knight. It's the little horse. The little horsey.
SPEAKER_05:I know. That's what you but that's what you call them as kids. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Bishop. Wait, look at Bishop's fun. Because the Bishop's got the little gash in its face.
SPEAKER_05:So Wes had a um Oh, yeah, you said Wes had a like party at the end of the year in school one year, and he was like, Oh, we can bring any game. And that was like, it must have been second grade, maybe, where he was really into chess, and he was like, Can I bring your chessboard? And I was like, Yeah, you can bring my chessboard. And he came back with every piece except one of the nights.
SPEAKER_01:I wonder if some kid like pocketed it.
SPEAKER_05:So, or it just like fell out. I mean, Wes is so conscientious that I think he felt really bad about it. I was like, it's fine, we'll just find like a a little night.
SPEAKER_01:So yeah, it's fine, it's just ruined. It's just ruined.
SPEAKER_05:I actually got this board when I was, I think in high school. I think I got it in like Door County or something.
SPEAKER_01:Wow.
SPEAKER_05:It doesn't get much use. I don't play that much, but yeah, you just whip it out when you want to give this metaphor. I just put it out when I want to look impressive. Yeah, totally. And then I say King's Rook to eight five. You know, that always sounds impressive. Yeah. But man, did chess spike in popularity with the Queen's Gambit when that showed it?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Did you watch that?
SPEAKER_05:I didn't, but everybody was talking about it.
SPEAKER_01:I watched it. You know what's unfortunately to me? It was one of those shows where you're like, okay, I feel like this is gonna be kind of like a steamy, like sexy show. And I was kind of into that. And then nothing really ever happens. Like it really, it's like they kind of built it up like that. And then by the end, I was like, really? It's just like chess, that's it. So yeah, definitely wasn't enough real like character drama for me. But and cut to me watching heated rivalry, and I'm like, okay, I think that's my speed, you know. Maybe they'll throw a little chess and heated rivalry, yeah, or maybe they'll make like a chess version. That would be so cool.
SPEAKER_05:With little hockey players?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Little hockey heated rivalries.
SPEAKER_01:A little hockey player. I love it. Okay, well, maybe we'll move into our how wise is it.
SPEAKER_05:How wise is it?
SPEAKER_01:How wise is it to ask for advice? First thoughts.
SPEAKER_05:I mean I think it's pretty wise. I've asked for advice a lot in my life.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, what do you ask for advice in?
SPEAKER_05:Anything. Parenting.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_05:Finances. Yeah. Therapists, how to be a therapist, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Therapist.
SPEAKER_05:That's when you get really pissed. Yeah, when you get pissed. Um somewhere that was like, don't I maybe I've mentioned this before. It's hard to remember what we mentioned on this podcast. Yeah. Whether I just repeat the same things over and over again. But I do the idea of like, you know, um, don't think too much about like what somebody says if you wouldn't ask advice from them. Like, don't give what they say, or like if you're thinking about somebody a lot, you could ask yourself, well, would I ask for advice from that person? Yeah. And if I guess the litmus there is like, if not, then why are you giving this person so much airtime in your head? Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Right.
SPEAKER_05:Um, but that was one of the initial things that made me think of where it's like, yeah, you don't just ask anybody for advice.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_05:You know, you gotta be I I think it's wise to be a little bit more intentional about it and making sure you're not just asking to hear what you want to hear.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah, like to be um picky about who you ask it from.
SPEAKER_05:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Like, are there certain areas where you wouldn't ask somebody for advice? Like context topics.
SPEAKER_01:Well, you know what's like a really tricky area is like health advice. Ooh. You know, I mean, it's all over the internet. And like it's all over everywhere. Everywhere. And and there's plenty of people.
SPEAKER_05:You could ask multiple doctors for different advice, you know, and multiple right.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I was like, I was listening to a podcaster talk about having moved to LA, and he's like, I'm learning in real time. Like, you truly cannot ask people in LA for anything, for any advice around anything medical, because they will give you the most ludicrous advice, you know, of like what to do. Like go jump off a cliff in Ohio instead of like get that checked out at the PCP. Right. You know. So it's like that I feel like I'm really skeptical of. Sure. But you know what I find is like, and this is maybe like a version of advice, but I find like people's own personal like relating concretely to like an issue I'm navigating and hearing what they did. It's like not quite advice, but it's like one idea to explore. That's probably my favorite kind of like guidance when someone's like, Well, when I was in a similar situation, here's what I did.
SPEAKER_05:I tried to steer clear of like relationship advice from people. It's a real that's something that I tried to steer a little bit clearer of. Yeah. Meaning I didn't really intentionally ask for a lot of like relationship advice.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:I don't know. Did you ever have the urge to get it and like stop yourself? Yeah, I mean, certainly like situations would arise where it'd be like, I'm not really sure like what to do here. You know, definitely getting like feedback. Yeah. And sometimes I just felt like it wasn't helpful. Yeah. It never really landed with where I felt like I don't know, almost maybe by asking, it almost confirmed, yeah, no, that's not really me or what I would want to do in this situation. So maybe it was a way of confirming maybe the things that I already knew or something. Not that the person was wrong, but I I think it cemented more if I had that reaction that it's like, oh, I think I'm really actually leaning in a different direction with this or something. I don't know.
SPEAKER_01:God, you bringing that up like totally reminds me of a moment where I like asked for advice on something and the person gave back such poor advice that it was like, thank God. Odd for this. Yeah. Because now I can hear my own wise mind. Right. It was like kind of funny where I was like, oh, that wise mind, good thing she's in there. Because it was like, it was like dating advice. And it was like a situation where I think it was like a guy had not texted me for a couple of days. It wasn't Josh. Um, I learned later that Josh waited between texts because he was writing really, really thoughtful messages. And I mean that. You're you're a very good, thoughtful texter, but you're not like an overtexter. I'm an under-texter. You're like long, thoughtful messages, but like you'll go a while without responding to a message.
SPEAKER_04:You're like in the zone. I have texting OCD. You have to craft it. And I have OCD.
unknown:Totally.
SPEAKER_01:My mom loves your texts. She's like, Josh always has the most thoughtful texts.
SPEAKER_04:I love your mom.
SPEAKER_02:And my texts are like great.
SPEAKER_01:The emoji game is off the chip.
SPEAKER_05:Which is great. It makes me want to do more emojis.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, totally. Remember what he's saying? You have a gluten-free donut. Yeah. I mean. I laughed out loud when I read that in my office. That's a gluten-free donut.
SPEAKER_04:That was my apology. No, it's great.
SPEAKER_01:Incredible.
SPEAKER_04:So creative.
SPEAKER_01:But like I had said, like, you know what I think I'm going to do is I think I'm I'm going to put it out there. Like, let's meet up. And if they don't respond to that, then it's it's like I'm almost going to clear the air with this person. I had suggested that and I was like talking with this person. I was like, what do you think? And they were like, I I definitely wouldn't do that. I would just like kind of hang in there and like wait and see what they text you and just kind of go along with it. Like it was almost like let them be vague and unclear and like string you along. And I was sort of like, oh, thank God I have I'm in touch with myself enough to know I'm definitely not going to do that. Because if if I reach out to a guy and say, like, hey, you want to get together again and they're turned off by that, then they are definitely not the person for me. You know, in an early dating situation, if someone can't handle that or can't be like communicative enough, it's like, I don't even think that's like a bad guy. I think it's sort of like, oh, we probably just like aren't gonna like like each other that much, you know, because like I'm gonna want more like clarity around the plans and like let's just not bother with this kind of thing.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. What's the difference between advice and feedback? Is advice like more direct and telling you what to do?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I literally, I think the literal maybe difference is like feedback can just be like a mirror. Okay. And advice it has to have that, like, what are you? Kind of telling you where to go and what to do. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe feedback like sometimes has advice, and like advice is often just like a has a reflecting of who you are, what they the person sees.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:But I really like your your idea of be really considerate of who you ask. Or it's like if someone gives, I mean, unsolicited advice, we can talk all about unsolicited advice.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. Some people, I mean, there are certain friends that I have that lean almost as if that's a little bit of like their agenda is almost to convince you what to do in like conversations.
SPEAKER_01:100%.
SPEAKER_05:And also like make the argument for why they're what they're doing is like the best.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, totally. Oh, it's so annoying.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. Yeah. Or it's kind of like why they're made, they're always making the argument of like why they're right.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Or something.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And sometimes that's like subtle. It's not, it's not subtle emotionally when you're with people like that, but it's like subtle in like the wording. It's hard to like describe those moments. But yeah, it's sort of like, well, I'm doing all the right things. I don't know about you.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. It's like in the the conversation is is more revolving around them trying to cement that like the life they're living or the decisions they're making are like the best. Yeah. Have you ever had the where you ask somebody for advice and they're they actually like are a little bit like, well, I don't want to tell you what to like I always think that that's a very thoughtful response is when people are like, I mean, I can give you some ideas, but yeah, because I try to embody that a little bit if somebody not that many people ask me for advice, but um if somebody's really concretely like asking me and there's like some urgency, sure. You know, if it's like, but I'd rather just kind of be, well, there's probably a lot of ways to think about this. I would want to take a little bit more of a yeah, not passive but open kind of response.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Well, and it's funny too, because sometimes I think like friends or clients or whatever will kind of ask in this way of like, is that wrong if I do X? And I like I think they think I'm being like cheesy or like hokey if I and I truly believe in my bones, I'm like, I I don't think wrong is a word that even applies or right. Right.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:You know, it's sort of like the wisdom is like what is most aligned for you, and you're gonna be the most, the strongest expert on that. So probably the best advice puts you in touch with your wise mind. It's not like do this, write this text back. It's sort of like, well, you tell me what you want to communicate and what why not communicate it just like you said it to me. And then they might say it's for your like therapist-y, but I mean, every once in a while, I put it out there, you know, like with clients, with friends, whatever, I'd be like, I wouldn't do that. You know, like and and I actually, even though I'm not a parent, sometimes if I hear something alarming in the parenting realm that like I feel like most people would know, like that that could be damaging. I'll sort of think twice about it. Step in there, yeah. Yeah, like you might just want. Well, often that'll come up when someone's like, I think I'm just not gonna bring it up. You know, when someone's like, I think I'm just not gonna circle it.
SPEAKER_05:Sweep that on his own.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, especially if it's like with a child. I'm like, yeah, so that here's how I could I'm just not gonna repair with them. Right. Or I'm gonna assume it's fine.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, they're resilient, they'll probably get through it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, I'm just gonna ignore it.
SPEAKER_05:You're just gonna ignore it for now.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. Maybe I probably do that a lot with like medical stuff where I'll tell someone, like, I would just maybe go have that. Someone give that a once over.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:You know, yeah, because I have like friends or people where they'll be like, Well, I went to my acupuncturist and my Chinese medicine herbalist and whatever. And I'm like, just like a regular doctor, have you have you had them take a look at the doctor? And they're like, No, and I'm sort of like, why not? You know, why not? Like, maybe just let's just see what they do.
SPEAKER_05:Somebody went to medical school, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Totally. Why not? Yeah. How how do you guys handle unsolicited advice? Getting it.
SPEAKER_05:Take that chess piece right off the board. I'm trying to think, I'm trying to think of the last time maybe I got unsolicited advice.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Every day of my life. From from me. Those are my people.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, yeah, your culture.
SPEAKER_04:My culture. The Jews.
SPEAKER_01:Um actually, you know what's so funny? Like, in some ways, that's like the refreshing thing about your family. Because I come from like an Irish Catholic background where people like don't really say stuff.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, it's more, it's less. It's a little hands-off. Yeah, it's hands-off-ish.
SPEAKER_01:And I think like sometimes it's refreshing like to see just how like we'll do it this way, not this way. You know, like that how liberal that can be.
SPEAKER_04:Cut your sandwich diagonal and not halfway.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Fold the taco like this, not like that.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, it's not even like a have you thought of cutting it that way? It's more of a oh, this is the right way to eat it. Cut it that way.
SPEAKER_02:Totally.
SPEAKER_04:You don't eat your taco like this?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:So what do you find is the best way to handle when I get three tacos and I eat them one after the other.
SPEAKER_05:However, you want it.
SPEAKER_04:However, I want it.
SPEAKER_05:Or maybe you've just flipped the switch and it doesn't even bother you anymore because you're so used to it. Switch. Like you've just kind of like flipped the switch off, or it's just kind of noise now, and you're just kind of like, Oh yeah, it's like I can't I can do that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:I feel like I can in the moment be like, I'm gonna take that with a grain of salt, and then be like looping it on repeat in my brain for like five days. Yeah, and then I'll be having the chess game of like, is what that person said true? Is it not true? Is it true? Is it not true? It's true, it's not true.
SPEAKER_01:So, but you know what's amazing with that? We can name like what's the piece you're trying to get off the board there, you think? Certainty. Uncertainty, right? Yeah, you're trying to remove the experience of uncertainty. Like you're probably never gonna know if it was like, quote, right or wrong.
SPEAKER_04:So here's my takeaway: asking for advice or being open to advice is always wise. And if you're in your wise mind, you are gonna know if you should follow it or not. Yeah. And I would say just like blindly following any piece of advice. I'm trying to be binary here just for the sake of argument, is never wise. I agree.
SPEAKER_01:Wait, say that one more time. I missed it.
SPEAKER_04:Like, never just like literally do anything anyone says because you have to filter it all through your wise mind, but always be open to anything anyone says.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:Just because it's it's yeah, why why not?
SPEAKER_01:Why not have the space to take it in and hear it and consider it totally, and then giving advice.
SPEAKER_04:Like, I mean, we could do a whole separate section, which we started to get into. Like, how wise is it to give advice?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah. I think for the unsolicited, it's just kind of like, yeah. Like how I respond to it, it's just kind of like, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:I'll have to think about that. Like, just kind of and then just move on. Yeah, totally.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I like I wonder.
SPEAKER_05:Because I'm sure that person wants to hear maybe a little bit of like, well, tell me more. Like, I want to, and it's more like, oh yeah, sure.
SPEAKER_01:You know what's so funny? Like, I'm having this realization of like sometimes if I get unsolicited advice, every once in a while, I feel kind of touched that the person is like entering my world and even gives a shit. Yeah. Like, I I think that you know, I've said this to you before. Like, my love language is like people taking an interest in like the minutia of my life, my like personal interiority, someone engaging with that. Now, sometimes unsolicited advice, you can tell the person is like giving advice to themselves, and it's almost as if you're not there. Right. And that is annoying to me. But sometimes if someone's like, you know what you should do, I I think my contact with my wise mind is strong enough that I wouldn't just like blindly follow that. But I do tend to feel like I like that we're having this conversation, you know, like I like that you care enough.
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, that's the thing a person about this shows enough interest to feel like they're helping you. Yes. Because even unsolicited advice, there's probably something in the person that they feel like they're helping. Right. Even if it's blatantly terrible advice, they they probably feel like they're like giving you a service or something. Either like, yeah, this is gonna be helpful.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, totally.
SPEAKER_05:Um I mean, I dream of a day where maybe my my boys will come to me more for advice. Not that I want to like give them or tell them what to do, but that would be a really refreshing thing to have like your young ones kind of come to you as like a wise person who's lived some life.
SPEAKER_01:Would you ever ask them for advice? Sure. On like uh anything.
SPEAKER_05:I mean, I asked them for what I asked them for advice on the podcast. Like, what should we what should our wise mind be? Or do you think do you think we should like lean more into this type of question? Or, you know, and just getting their ideas out there because they think about things just so differently. I'm I'm rigid. I need like young minds that are flexible that yeah can tell me things I haven't thought of.
SPEAKER_01:Right, that are so curious and open, yeah.
SPEAKER_05:Which I I would absolutely, and I'm sure the older I get, I hope that they ask me for advice, but I'm sure I'll ask them. Yeah. Because they'll just be cool. They're gonna know so much more stuff. Like, tell me what I should be listening to.
SPEAKER_01:What what are the cool jams?
SPEAKER_04:What was that? Sorry, I was just like, I was like, maybe you should uh maybe you should be checking out Dogman 2.
SPEAKER_06:Yeah, what are the cool movies? Dogman.
SPEAKER_02:Dogman album. It all comes laughing at dog.
SPEAKER_04:Have you seen it? There is no dog man too. Trick question.
SPEAKER_05:Oh, good point.
SPEAKER_01:We're gonna get a screener for Dogman 2. Oh my god. Okay, so we think it's wise. I it's probably wise if you're in touch with your wise men, which is maybe a cheat answer, but it's wise. What are you looking for? Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:And who are you cultivating this from? Yeah. Who are you going to?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, because asking for advice, like you can do you can be careful in who you ask, and you don't have to take it, even if the person is a trustworthy source of advice. Yeah, totally. I have had over the years, like numerous clients kind of tell me, like, I know you're not gonna give me any advice on this, I know you're not gonna give me any direction, kind of as like a joke.
SPEAKER_05:And tell me what to do.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, but could you please this time just tell me what to do? I've had that like all throughout my career, and it's kind of like a running joke. You never give me a help in this concrete way, which is funny. But then sometimes I'm like, well, we'll see. You never know. I might be feeling I might be feeling dicey today. Yeah, maybe I will. Yeah. Sometimes with like really, really concrete things, sure, you know, like should I wear these boots if I go to that or that? If we talk about something that inane, I might be like, do this.
SPEAKER_05:If it's a girl's night sushi.
SPEAKER_01:It's girls' night sushi, like pull up the bird. Go for it.
SPEAKER_05:Give a shoulder roll.
SPEAKER_01:Get a couple of rolls going. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So it's wise. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, okay. So that's our episode. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for joining us. Talk a little bit about chess.
SPEAKER_05:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:Um, John, where can people find you?
SPEAKER_05:But sputz. Jonathan at gmail.com. What about you?
SPEAKER_01:You can find me at kkpsychotherapy.com. And Josh, how about you?
SPEAKER_04:You can find me at Josh Bayer, B-A-Y-E-R films.com. I'm gonna plug the Mandy Indiana album. Good music's coming out all year. Check this one out. Maybe you'll like it.
SPEAKER_01:Mandy Indiana.
SPEAKER_04:Mandy Indiana. I haven't talked to you about it because it's kind of very noisy electro rock, almost punkish, with like a female punk lead singer, and uh I looked up the lyrics. They're very angry. I think she's a victim of a recent sexual trauma. Oh, okay, of course. So that really informs the lyrical output of the album and also the musical output. Yeah. And I can't stop listening to it.
unknown:Wow.
SPEAKER_04:It's like just fun enough if you're me.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. And meaningful, cathartic, maybe.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah. You could like maybe dance to like a few minutes of it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Okay. Recommend Mandy Indiana.
SPEAKER_04:Mandy Indiana.
SPEAKER_01:And thank you to blanket for it.
SPEAKER_04:Thank you, blanket forwards. No, thank you to blanket for it. Okay.
SPEAKER_01:For our music. Yeah, we gotta have blanket for it on this podcast.
SPEAKER_05:We gotta have blanket for it. We have a guest coming next week, though, right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, we do. Stay tuned for that. It should be really exciting talking about biofeedback.
SPEAKER_05:Biofeedback.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Okay, thanks everyone. Thanks, everyone. Take care. Bye. The WiseMind Happy Hour podcast is for entertainment purposes only, not to be treated as medical advice. If you are struggling with your mental health, please seek medical attention or counseling.