the best of our guests (VOL. 1)

In just over a year of existence, we've had some pretty noteworthy guests on our pod...in this first installment of our "best of guests," we feature Dr. Vijay Khilanani, MD; Dr. Alisa Bayer, PhD; Mia D'Agostino, LCSW; Alexandra Wallen, LCSW and Lori Tolan, LCPC.

- music by blanket forts -

Transcript

SPEAKER_09 0:04

Okay, welcome to the Wisemind Happy Hour.

SPEAKER_10 0:08

Yes, welcome. Today's a special day. Yeah. We're very excited. We're kind of giddy right now because we have our first guest. We're very excited to welcome Dr. Vijay Kilinani with us, who we've both worked with in the past. Um and just to give a little background, and then we want to hear from him, Dr. Kilinani graduated from Wayne State University School of Medicine, completed his residency at the University of Michigan Fellowship at the University of Chicago, Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, completed his psychoanalytic. Okay, the Chicago Psychoanalytic Institute for Adults. And that was a that was five years training. Wow. A little bit more. A little bit more than that. A little bit more, yeah. So we welcome Vijay to our podcast.

SPEAKER_09 0:59

Welcome, yeah. So excited.

SPEAKER_10 1:01

And I think we're just excited because uh this is in all honesty. When we first started the podcast, your literally your name was like, we have to have Vijay on.

SPEAKER_09 1:11

It's like yeah, totally. We're like, we gotta get him. We have to have you on.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

Well, yeah, no, thank you so much. I am I'm giddy too, because uh I'm just happy to see you both. Yeah, no, it's really fun to hang out.

First-Day Nerves And Human Warmth;

SPEAKER_10 1:22

And I I have to share this anecdote because I think it's just so funny. So we work together, and my first day on the job, you walk into this, there's interdisciplinary rounds, which for people, it's everybody who works with the patients we're working with. So it's the therapist and it's the psychiatrists, and sometimes the nurses, and you know, every family therapist, they're all in there. And I walk into this room and it's extremely intimidating. It's a huge, large table, and we're talking about all the patients. And so I sit down, and everybody's coming in and introducing themselves, and I'm like, I'm not gonna remember any of these people, I don't know what they're talking about, I don't know any of these patients. So people are just like rounding on all these patients and talking about all these things, and I'm like, I'm not as smart, you know, I have all these doubts. And you're sitting like three seats down from me, maybe on the table. Yeah. And you lean back in the chair and you whisper, you're like, Hey, John, John. And I like look over, and you you look over at me and you go, um, just so you know, we have a men's poker game every week. And what's your what's your phone number? And so that in and of itself made me feel so much more at ease. Like, you have no idea how like that had such a huge, I'll never forget that moment because like everybody was like giving me their title and introducing things, and that was such a real, like just human moment and connection that I was like so like touched by that that I was like, I think I might make it through today. Like that was like a really big moment, and so um I'll never forget that. But in sense, you know, very, very such great conversations with you. But that it's like those little things that maybe you don't even remember that, or maybe you but it just had such an impact on me.

SPEAKER_01 3:04

So thank and you know, it's interesting is when we did work together, you both shared an office, yeah, and I used to come to your office for that connection. Oh, yeah, yeah. It was like my little safe haven, you know, in between seeing patients and talking to co-workers, I could just unbuckle.

SPEAKER_11 3:23

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_09 3:25

You know, totally, yeah. No, that's the best, the best, like the the the safe bases you have at work for sure.

SPEAKER_10 3:31

Yeah, especially in a big uh place, especially in a lot of places and when you're meeting a lot of people on a first day and it's like it's like I don't I it's like I don't know I don't know what I'm doing here. I I'm way outside of my depth. Like it's yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:45

Did you come you came to my place, didn't you? Yeah, did we play?

SPEAKER_10 3:48

We did play poker that one time. I mean a horrible, I'm a horrible poker player. But that was another thing that was that made it so much fun was nobody was taking it seriously. Yeah, and we were all just like laughing about how bad we were, really. I think there might have been like one or two people that were taking it seriously, which is fine. They just took all of our money, but yeah, yeah, that was fine.

SPEAKER_01 4:08

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_10 4:08

But anyway, tell us about like what got you into the field of psychiatry. Tell us a little bit about your story, maybe if you're willing.

Choosing Psychiatry And Cultural Expectations;

SPEAKER_01 4:18

Yeah, yeah, sure. I let's see. Um I'm Indian American, so I that's relevant because I feel like both my parents are physicians, okay, and being a physician is quite common in our community. And your brother. And my so I have a twin brother. Yeah, he's a pediatric ICU doctor. I have a older sister, she's a psychiatrist, but now she actually has moved past medicine, and now she's into writing and other things. Um, but we we were at some point a family of physicians. Wow. And I just kind of grew up hearing my parents' just old school traditional view of medicine, kind of caring for human being, and you know, really like getting personal and warm and the compassion, and it just was really appealing.

SPEAKER_11 5:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:04

And I just kind of like idealized it for a lot of reasons. And on top of that, you know, it was also the uh, yeah, sure, you can uh be a doctor or do nothing.

SPEAKER_09 5:16

Be nothing.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

Yeah, so your choice. Your choice. You do have a choice, yeah.

SPEAKER_09 5:21

You do. You could be nothing.

SPEAKER_10 5:22

You could be nothing or be a doctor.

SPEAKER_09 5:24

I remember you told me that that you had a relative who was like trying to pay her son-in-law to become a doctor or something, and he had like a successful hedge fund or something, and I'll never forget that. I was like, yeah, Pat is really expecting everyone to be a doctor.

SPEAKER_01 5:38

Well, yeah, it well, it it you know, it's just like I I think the way I look on it now is that they came out of their time in history and their part of the world. Really, I I I see it as a lot of historical trauma and then in survival mode and a lot of vigilance and certain ideas stuck, I think, in terms of how to just survive. And and one of them, you know, was around the idea of like how to have a career and be of value and you know, make a living, and how to be viewed by other people. And so I think that was a prominent part of I I feel like the community I grew up in uh Michigan.

SPEAKER_09 6:18

So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:20

And frankly speaking, I you know, it the culture where I was training, eventually when I did tell people, Oh, yeah, I do want to do psychiatry, you know, it's everyone's reaction at that time when I was in med school was a a little bit like, oh, really? Why? You know, like disappointment.

SPEAKER_10 6:36

Is that how it's viewed, or at least that was in the context you were in?

SPEAKER_01 6:39

That was in the context when I was in med school, and I I felt like that was kind of how it was viewed, in a sense that you know, there are specialties that generate a lot of revenue, and you can build a lot of prestige and you have a lot of procedures, etc. And psychiatry is not one of them. But I think I didn't have a good sense of what psychiatry did, but I definitely gravitated towards relationships, people, you know, the caring aspect, the loving cure.

SPEAKER_09 7:05

Say the loving cure.

Depression As Development And Meaning;

SPEAKER_01 7:07

The loving yeah, I just and and you know, I just at some point I think I met mentors and people in the field who kind of resonated with me. I think at some point someone recommended for me the Roadless Travel by Dr. Peck, I think Scott Peck. And it was really just interesting and transformative for me reading that book because it was just a different view on something like depression and struggle. It was essentially looking at depression as a kind of like a having developmental purpose in that one can rework and rewire and remap who they are. And it was a like an important crisis kind of exact yeah, and you know, it was something to be utilized to grow as a person versus something to kind of extinguish and uh you know combat. So reading that book just kind of got me to like connect with more and more people along those lines, and and I just started kind of going, you know, playing around with the idea, and I thought, oh yeah, this this feels like yeah, right for me.

SPEAKER_09 8:13

Like your pathology has meaning to it.

SPEAKER_01 8:15

Yeah, and and that, you know, right, and that like unlike a wart, I need to remove my wart.

SPEAKER_11 8:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 8:24

Depression and and frankly, I still think in some ways, psychiatric psychopathology is looked at like a wart. Yeah, you have an illness, you have a cure, and you you take it out. But it was helpful to view it as in a deeper context of meaning and as an avenue for growth of an individual. Yeah, you know, and I really deeply believe in that.

SPEAKER_09 8:50

And even beyond depression, I even and this is more my spirituality, I even believe like physical illness can be this, like crises are meant for you. I really do believe that, and that if you can explore it, there's like a lot of richness. It's like it is a mechanism of change in itself. I've experienced that in my own life. Yeah, big time. Yeah, and I I have clients I'll bring that too, and sometimes they're like, I don't want to talk about it in that way, and it's like fair enough, but really I feel like it's like an ethos in the work I do, and it's why I like this work as well. I love that. I love that in psychiatry that was being said, because in medicine, that's not so popular, right?

SPEAKER_01 9:32

Yeah, that like symptoms are something beyond just something to be eliminated.

SPEAKER_09 9:40

Being more curious, like instead of targeting that behavior, more like I wonder how this protected you, where this served you, where you needed this. And could your own mind help you learn that like you don't need this now? You're okay. And you your own mind does it often. That wise mind comes out. It's so nice, it gives me such faith in the wise mind. Like it's in there. Yeah, you know, you just have to help create the conditions, whether it's the therapy relationship itself, the EMDR, meditation, like whatever, you know, gluten-free diet.

SPEAKER_10 10:20

It's all in there. All of us. Ice cream diet. Yeah, ice cream diet. Why not? Why not?

SPEAKER_09 10:28

So, I mean, maybe we want to mosey into our topic.

SPEAKER_10 10:31

Yeah.

Relationship As Biological Intervention;

SPEAKER_09 10:32

This idea, both in a clinical setting or in life, how like relationships can be in itself, they can be a mechanism of change, like a healing, almost modality, is which sounds funny to say that it's like a modality, but well, absolutely, no, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 10:51

And you know, to that point, as I've grown as a therapist and and the psychiatrist that I am, I really feel that the most biologically effective, potent intervention we have is the relationship. And I've never heard that being characterized as a biological intervention, but it is it is the fundamental intervention that we have that is all based on biology.

SPEAKER_10 11:16

And what makes for just for the audience, the layperson, what makes it fundamentally biological.

SPEAKER_01 11:22

Look at, you know, uh the attachment relationship between a caregiver, a mother, and the infant, and essentially all the biological structures in the brain that somehow create this unique set of circumstances where any mother, animal, or mammal all of a sudden now kicks in this new set of behaviors and ways of relating to it their infant or their pup by licking and grooming and cuddling and nourishing, providing proximity that wasn't there before. And it's just like dance that is orchestrated by a whole set of hormones and up and down, you know, things that shift in physiology that is so unique to delivery and nursing and taking care of children. And there's all these kind of you know, structures in the brain that are so specialized for making sure babies and kids and adolescent animals stay close to their parents, yeah, largely because the connection, the proximity is nourishing and it provides security and safety. And then us as humans, it gets even more complicated because we can provide proximity not just physically, yeah, but through understanding and you know, intimacy psychologically.

SPEAKER_09 12:45

Yeah, and obviously, like a huge part of therapy is when there's like ruptures and in key ruptures in those relationships, like the therapy relationship is a healing opportunity there. But it's interesting, maybe we want to just think about this topic more generally because I'm as I'm thinking about it, and I always do this, think about my own experience, right? With relationships with therapy, my own therapy, the relationship piece is enormous. And like I, you know, meeting Josh, my person who I'm always talking about. The relationship with myself is so different being with you. Like being kind of like relentlessly loved by someone is so incredibly powerful and like amazing. You know, I felt it in friendships, I felt it in therapy relationships, you know, family relationships, but noticing like healing and ease happening in real time in that kind of space. So, like on a gut level, in my own experience, I totally agree with this.

SPEAKER_01 13:55

Like literally at the gut level.

Love, Attachment, And Felt Safety;

SPEAKER_09 13:58

Totally, you know, totally like a a warmth and kind of feeling like really at ease with myself, with the world when you're loved. Actually, you know what? There's a novel that Josh and I love by Otessa Moshevek. I don't know if you guys have read any of her work. Her, she's like brilliant, she's the best. She has this book called Eileen, that's a really interesting book about this character. She's like a young girl who's really, really, really lost, and her primary relationships are very, very awful. She finally makes a friend. And in this really beautiful way, talks about how like in one instant you go from like feeling like everything's hopeless and you're lost to like I am okay to be alive in this world because I have this person. Like meeting a friend's gaze and knowing you're accepted there is like there's nothing like that.

SPEAKER_01 14:50

And carrying that with you. Yeah. Yeah. And and and having that expectation that it's there. You can generalize it to others. Totally. You know, all the you know influences that has on thinking and perception. Yeah, it's amazing. It's incredible. When when you just feel like loved and accepted, yeah, it it you're a different person.

unknown 15:13

Totally.

SPEAKER_01 15:13

Your physiology is different. Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_09 15:17

Well, it's funny, like when you say like that physiological change, that biological change from being loved and accepted. The way I tend to conceptualize that in my own life and in my practice is like that's the real you coming out. I I just for me, I that tends on like a center of myself level. Feel like that is you, and that is the innate part of you that holds the worthiness that you were born with. And the rest is that I don't know if you call it egoic or part protective parts emotion mind that's just defensive and ready for security. And I think the the like softer part is more like the the self comes forth.

SPEAKER_01 15:59

The authentic, yeah, wise-minded.

Couples Therapist Elisa Bayer Joins;

SPEAKER_09 16:01

Wise mind, yeah. Today we have a special guest on the pod. Yeah, Dr. Elisa Bayer, um, psychologist and social worker and therapist, and most importantly, Josh, my fiance's mom, my mother-in-law.

SPEAKER_00 16:20

Yeah, so happy to be here. What an honor.

SPEAKER_09 16:26

Yes, we're so excited to have you, and we're talking today about couples, couples therapy, relationships, and the wise mind. And and yeah, so yeah, tell us a little bit about your background, you know, anything the audience might want to know about you.

SPEAKER_00 16:42

Well, I will say that I've been practicing, I will never forget, because all I have to know is how old Josh is. And I know your age always, Josh. So you're about to be 36. And I um started practicing and done with all my education when you were right before you were born. So I always remember sort of my timeline. Wow. And prior to being in private practice, I worked at Oakland Family Services. That was my initial training, and that's a family service agency. And I worked with a variety of families, most of whom were actually referred through protective services. So it was really great training being able to connect with people who basically were court-ordered to come to therapy.

SPEAKER_08 17:31

Uh-huh. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:32

And then kind of had this insight that I really wanted to have the flexibility as a mom to not have someone really telling me what hours I was gonna work. So I decided to be bold and daring and thought I'll try to go into private practice. And if it doesn't work, I could always go somewhere else. But I made that transition when I was uh pregnant with Josh. Wow. Incredible. Yeah.

Wise Mind And The Authentic Self;

SPEAKER_10 17:56

So that's just like an inspiring move to just be like, I'm going to do it. I'm just gonna do this. And if it doesn't work, I'll just go back to the like that.

SPEAKER_00 18:05

Yeah. I kind of felt like I would just try it, and if it didn't work, there would be options for me.

SPEAKER_10 18:11

Right.

SPEAKER_00 18:12

And I left with one or two clients that followed me and built from there. So wow. Wow.

SPEAKER_10 18:20

And you've been in private practice ever since. Wow.

SPEAKER_09 18:22

Yeah. Wow. Yeah, tell us about your practice now. Like, how do you describe it?

Building A Private Practice And Focus;

SPEAKER_00 18:28

Like if you were I work with teenagers and older, not the only age group I I don't work with are children, even though I love children. That's not the age group I focus on. People come to me a lot of relationship issues across the board, life transitions, anxiety, depression, you know, all the stuff that we would think about when we think about why people might want to go for therapy. And I do individual therapy, I do family therapy, and I do couples therapy. And I myself, I think part of my passion for couples therapy is I was in a long-term marriage. Josh, the kid's dad, I we were together for a lot of years, and I went through myself a pretty difficult, traumatic divorce scenario. But I honestly can say that so much of who I am in my work with people, and it whether it is to help couples in marriage counseling to get to a better place, that I'm very passionate about that, or people to manage and deal with divorce and come out on another side and have it not be the D which is dark and dreadful and dreary. I I try to make it development and discovery and find the lighter side of that. You know, I think sometimes when you're in this field, part of it is you choose, but part of it chooses you. And I think that a lot of my passion and helping people is comes from my experience and what I want to bring to other people to help them in any kind of healing capacity I can. Yeah, yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_10 19:58

I'm always curious with couples therapy because it's not something I mean, I maybe did a few times, but I'm just always curious. Like, do people typically come as like this person's the problem in the relationship? Is that kind of like that happens a lot? I just feel like that would be for me very overwhelming to try to feel like who are we focusing on? Is this, am I giving this person enough airtime? Is this, I don't know. Just curious how you navigate some of those spaces.

SPEAKER_00 20:27

So I think that um when somebody's really centrally focused on telling me that right away, oftentimes it's a little bit of an indicator light to me that, hmm, I take a hmm. And sometimes when someone's sharing that so readily, it's sometimes in my experience the flip.

SPEAKER_07 20:45

Yeah. Yeah.

Holding Space For Two Truths;

SPEAKER_00 20:46

Um interestingly, when I do see people where maybe there is one person who's, I'm gonna say, struggling more. Maybe they're struggling with addiction, maybe they're struggling with something that is a very individual issue. Oftentimes that's not the spouse or the partner who says, uh, the problem is all this other person. So I don't want to say all the time, but sometimes when somebody is really wanting to paint a whole theory as to why they're not really there for themselves, that's that is a little bit of an indicator like clue for me. And as far as holding the space to make both people feel honored and heard, I think that's actually very natural, I think, for me, because I think we all are perfectly imperfect and we all have our challenges and issues. And I think that I'm really looking when I see a couple come in as to look past the maybe the parts of the behavior, the personality parts that are very not pleasant and seeing the source of the underlying pain where that comes from. I think my mind is very much geared that way. It doesn't make it an excuse, and I'm not saying that that explains or justifies. It but if you really can get the heart of use your wise mind as a therapist to get to the heart of what are the underlying, what is that person's underlying unresolved issues that's contributing to this toxic behavior? It makes me feel that I can connect to both people, even if one person is maybe a little bit more off-putting.

SPEAKER_10 22:21

Is there a moment of like having them recount like how they met or like the warm feelings that they have just to kind of see if like those would the if they can even go there and kind of to absolutely so sometimes people are coming for, which is so refreshing, and I love when this happens and someone's coming to me, not in crisis, and they're coming to me and they're saying, listen, we just really want some tools, we want to be able to communicate better. Um, that's a breath of fresh, that's not a breath of fresh.

SPEAKER_00 22:52

Yeah, that's like wow, wow, come on, let's have some fun. And it's very really exciting because if you think about it, we have to get a test to get a driver's license. You have to get a lot of credentialing. But to get married, there is no such thing other than getting a license and um having a ceremony. So when somebody really is wanting to do the learning, there can be that kind of a flavor. And then there can be obviously somebody is coming to me in really intense crisis. Yeah. And so the way I navigate that, depending on the situation, is gonna be clearly very different. Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 23:31

I'm curious too, like, if we think about the idea of like wise mind, for all of us, maybe we can think of this like because we're all partnered. But yeah, like the idea of like wisdom in the relational space, the romantic relationship space. You know, I know it's a very big question.

SPEAKER_10 23:50

Yeah, it's like I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_11 23:52

I'm like at a point.

SPEAKER_10 23:56

There's yeah, it's just there's it just opens up everything. I mean, there's so many things.

Roots Of Conflict And Wise Mind;

Kindle Or Paper: Comfort Vs Convenience;

SPEAKER_00 24:02

So I'll share this with you guys. This is um when I was thinking about topics to talk about, I and I listened to your theme of wise mind, I'll tell you something that I've learned that is at the heart of a lot of conflicts, regardless of the level of conflict, is that usually between couples, when there is the heightened, most emotionally triggering, upsetting, dysregulating conflicts, most of the time you are coming at that with where your pain is from the past that often predates and has nothing to do with what's going on with your part. It does have to do with it. It's touching a cord. It's like a sense of it's like heat sensitivity when if you're eating something and you have like a sensitivity in your root of your teeth and you drink something really hot or cold and it sort of can sting. That happens with that's how I think about it, happens with couples. And so that sting or that pushback is something that predates the relationship. That's a root of a root of where there is some pent-up feelings, pain, experiences, and where I think wise mind comes in when it comes to couples counseling, which I'm using in the sessions, is that when you really are able to understand where your partner's rawness is or that root is, and have a wise mind about where they're really wired more sensitively, then you can have more compassion for it and you can be more supportive to the person instead of being in your root of where your pain is. And what I was saying, and I don't think I fully finished, is that the most difficult moments are when both people are intersecting in their route at the same time. So no one can hold the space to get into that wise mind because they're coming from a visceral place of anger, hurt, pain, you're not understanding me, you know, you're not supporting me enough, you're not, and and it just gets heated pretty quickly. But the other person can hold the space better for that when they're not in their root moment. Got it. So in my experience, when there's that intersection of both things happening simultaneously, it's the most explosive. So I teach couples that. When you have some of your, you know, more difficult arguments or conflicts, and you're really feeling hopeless or sad, if you can take a moment and say, well, this is what I've learned in therapy. We're both in a very vulnerable spot, and we're both digging really deep to some issues that have nothing to do with each other. And I don't want to bring all the energy of that backlash of that to our relationship. I have to have some accountability there and sensitivity to you.

SPEAKER_04 26:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:46

And then it shifts it. And I see that in my work with people, and that's part of why I love this, is back to your question, John, about you know, two people in the room. And when it gets what, you know, what do you do and how do you handle the space for that, especially if one person maybe seems more, let's just say, unglued or uncentered or contributing to the conflict in a destructive way? But I am looking at that route for everybody, which we all have. So then that puts us all on more, I'm gonna say, equal playing field, if that makes sense. Yes. That's a lot to digest.

SPEAKER_10 27:21

No, it's a lot to digest, and I love it. How wise is it to have a Kindle?

SPEAKER_09 27:27

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_10 27:28

An e-reader.

SPEAKER_09 27:29

An e-reader.

SPEAKER_10 27:30

As opposed to maybe, you know, leaning more into books. Books, Lother Round. Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 27:37

Can I ask, do either of you have a Kindle or Josh?

SPEAKER_10 27:40

You know the answer.

SPEAKER_09 27:41

Oh, yeah. Well the case.

SPEAKER_10 27:43

I have a Kindle. I have a Kindle and it is not. What I will say is right now in my life it is not charged. So I think what that lends itself to.

SPEAKER_09 27:52

I'm in a liminal space with my right now.

SPEAKER_10 27:54

What that lends itself to is I have been reading more books from the library. I've been finding it really enjoyable. So I think I vacillate. I think it's very wise to have a Kindle, especially when you're traveling, because if you finish your book, it's very easy to download another book. Yeah. It's easy to, I mean, the accessibility of it. Um, it's also, you know, if it gets water splashed on it, if you're by a pool or something like that, it's totally fine. Um, but recently I have been liking having an actual physical book, and I've been trying to engage more with the library and getting books from the library. So I think for me it's very wise to have a Kindle when I need it on like traveling.

SPEAKER_09 28:35

Yeah, and it's handy, but not handy.

SPEAKER_10 28:39

But I really do like reading with a real book, like in bed right before, right before bed. I really like having the pages.

SPEAKER_00 28:45

Yeah. I don't own a Kindle. And I huge reveal. Huge reveal.

SPEAKER_10 28:50

I love it. Plot twist.

SPEAKER_00 28:52

Um, plot twist is right. And I feel like the reason I don't is what you're saying, John, is there is something cozy and comforting to me, unless technologically driven. Yeah. In this technologically driven society, about the cozy wholesomeness of a book.

SPEAKER_11 29:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:08

That's just for me. Yeah. Someone wants to have a Kindle, that's wise for them.

SPEAKER_09 29:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:12

It's not, doesn't feel particularly, doesn't have the soothing aspect for me. Yeah. I think. And I'm also feeling, although open to technology and having to evolve in that, I think sometimes holding on to some non-technological parts of ourself, like a book, feels good.

SPEAKER_10 29:30

Yeah. I agree.

unknown 29:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_10 29:32

You also can't lend your I mean you could, but like recently the books that I've purchased that are not from the library, I've just left them on a table in an office at work, and people have been like tickled to be like, oh, you're you're done with that. I can just take it and read it. And I'm like, absolutely. And it's like, I'm not gonna leave my Kindle out there for them to take my Kindle. So I feel like there's a little bit of connective tissue with that too, where it's like, I finished this book, let me pass it on to you. And and then now you can read it and then tell me how you enjoy it. So sorry I'm boring you, Kelly.

SPEAKER_07 30:08

She's like, Yeah, I like that, John. Connective tissue, whatever. She's being sponsored by Kindles. Yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_09 30:15

Like, how do I shoehorn Kindle? Well, I do have a Kindle, and I'm always trying to convince Josh to get a Kindle. Because I I do have some, obviously, book books, and I like reading book books, but the night light is so nice. You can read in the dark as your partner's sleeping on the plane. It's like you can mess with the light, you can make the font bigger. It definitely is that like convenience factor. It's lighter. You can bring three different books and this light little skinny thing in your when you travel. You have to charge it, which is annoying.

SPEAKER_10 30:50

Do you ever find it hard though? And maybe I'm just not technologically advanced enough to know how to do this. I find it hard though, because sometimes when I read a book, I want to go back quickly to something and reread it. Do you find that hard on the Kindle?

SPEAKER_09 31:02

I actually find it pretty easy because you go to the main page and you can go to like the.

SPEAKER_10 31:05

Oh, see, then this is just a deficit. Yeah, and then you just click. Okay.

SPEAKER_09 31:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_10 31:09

So you're gonna have to show me at a page. Pretty easy. Okay.

SPEAKER_09 31:11

And I think it's like you like to read with the light on your paper books.

SPEAKER_07 31:16

I do also on my paper books. My hard, leather bound, leather daddy, paper, leather daddy.

SPEAKER_09 31:24

Well, this might be the perfect time. Perfect time to end the show. Yeah, to end the show.

Introducing Mia D’Agostino;

SPEAKER_10 31:28

Yeah, this was uh this was it. No, of course. Yes, you should do the intro.

SPEAKER_09 31:33

Yeah, so our guest today is the illustrious therapist and friend, Mia D'Agostino, LCSW. Welcome, Mia.

SPEAKER_03 31:43

Thank you for having me. Oh my god. Yeah, I'm making a front row seat to my favorite podcast. Yes, welcome. Nice to watch you guys in action.

SPEAKER_09 31:53

And before we even intro you in our topic, tell us tell us what's new with you. Oh gosh. Tell us about your life a little bit. Outside of work.

SPEAKER_03 32:04

Okay. Outside of work. Outside of work. I'm cleaning food off the floor quite a bit.

SPEAKER_09 32:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:12

He has a newish mom. Yeah, I've got a little toddler. Um we just went to a we had a little wedding weekend this weekend. Yeah, you had a wedding too. Yeah, so that was fun. Um, no, it's a lot of a lot of time with my son. And yeah, it's been it's been really nice. I was telling you guys before we started that I was a little a hectic couple of days with a little gusher, as the pediatrician called it. Yeah. A little a little lip split. So we're all okay. But still scary.

SPEAKER_09 32:45

Yeah. Yeah. I I mean, I feel like I'm I'm gonna be worse than anyone in those situations, I feel like, with a child. Like, I'll just like start crying and that'll be unhelpful to them.

SPEAKER_03 32:56

Like, no, you won't, you won't, because you'll want to keep. I mean, yeah, you maybe cry after. Actually, that's true.

SPEAKER_09 33:02

Like, I feel like if my nieces fall, I do run and pick them up and hold them. I'll even yell at my brother, who is a dad and pediatrician, and tell him, You're not holding them, right? Stop putting pressure on it. Because I remember one time one of his daughters fell, and I was like, You need to squeeze the area.

SPEAKER_08 33:18

He's like, What? Oh my god, but yeah, okay, well, good. Yeah, he's doing okay.

Uncertainty At The Core Of Anxiety;

SPEAKER_09 33:26

Okay, so well, so maybe I'll intro our topic and then we can talk about how this comes up for you and your work. It really comes up a lot. I mean, it comes up a lot in all of our work, but today we're gonna talk about uncertainty. So maybe actually that's what we're talking about today. Yeah, John. John was uncertain of the topic. As I was like, this is great.

SPEAKER_10 33:48

We don't have a yeah, we don't have a topic. This is great. And you're like, no, it's uncertainty.

SPEAKER_09 33:52

Yeah, sorry about that. You know, it's like sometimes I'll it's like I'll Mia and I talked about it. I told Josh, and then in my head, I was like, Oh, I think I told John. And then I'm like, No, I never sent him a text.

SPEAKER_10 34:00

It's fine.

SPEAKER_09 34:01

And I guess I never mentioned it last week because I even knew then. But yeah, I just wanted to do uncertainty.

SPEAKER_10 34:08

Yeah, you left me in that. I like it though.

SPEAKER_09 34:09

But maybe let's whoa.

SPEAKER_10 34:13

There's so much noise.

SPEAKER_09 34:14

I know. We have a very noisy.

SPEAKER_10 34:16

I like it. Anyway, someone uncerning?

SPEAKER_03 34:22

Yeah, we are uncertain about it.

SPEAKER_07 34:25

I couldn't see it. Yeah. I was like, should we turn flip the camera?

SPEAKER_10 34:28

Yeah, why would this topic of uncertainty maybe be your specialty? Yeah, maybe you tell us a little bit about your background training and your specialty, because it's definitely it's certainly much different than mine.

SPEAKER_03 34:42

Yeah. So I'm an exposure therapist, and exposure therapy is exposing people to their fears. And oftentimes their fears involve, like at the root of their fears, is uncertainty. So there is a lot of fear of like something bad happening, but just the sitting in the unknown is often what I'm exposing people to. So when I'm working with someone with OCD or social anxiety or panic, illness anxiety, like all of those incorporate a lot of uncertainty.

SPEAKER_11 35:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:11

So oh my God, is right. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_10 35:16

After that description, that's intense.

SPEAKER_03 35:18

That's uncertainty, yeah. So yeah, I feel like it is at the root, especially when you work with somebody with anxiety, it is at the root of a lot of anxiety. Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 35:28

As you were saying that part of me is like, is there any like anxiety or OCD where that's not at the root? I don't I don't even think there is. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's almost like at the root of so many things. Yeah. Definitely. Or it's like, I was thinking about this today. Oh, I fear this is a tangent, but I I was thinking about how it's like so often, like with any issue that a client brings up to me, I'm like, somewhere here I have to find like the reality that's just simply painful to sit with. Which is like uncertainty in a lot of cases, but it's just something where it's like you want to change something that's unchangeable with so many things. Yeah. And it's like it's such a hard thing.

Crafting Uncertainty Statements;

SPEAKER_03 36:11

Well, I think we skip over uncertainty. Like, I think we we actually don't even acknowledge a lot of times the fact that we are uncertain about something and we have to just sit in that feeling.

unknown 36:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:21

We are go to like problem solve our catastrophic thought or our, you know, what oh yeah, whatever we think is gonna happen.

SPEAKER_10 36:27

Great point.

SPEAKER_03 36:28

And I guess we're kind of skipping ahead, but like sometimes I will talk about like using something called an uncertainty statement. Like when we're most anxious about something, can we make an uncertainty statement like about this situation? And it is hard for both me and the client to generate that statement. Yeah. Because it's not natural to think about like, okay, what is what are we actually uncertain about in this moment?

SPEAKER_10 36:50

And when you say we jump to that, because that's very accurate, you're saying just humans. That's just the way our minds work, or you just feel like people have been programmed, that that's like the effective thing to do, or not that there's one answer to it, but like what I'm curious, like when you say we jump to that. Because that's a good question. I certainly jump to that as well, just being human, but yeah, I guess I don't know why we do it or what it comes from.

SPEAKER_03 37:16

But I think like when we talk about um control moves, like I feel like I do incorporate a lot of act, like control moves and the illusion of control. Like, I think we're all operating in like a pretty large illusion of control, right? Most of the time.

SPEAKER_09 37:28

Yeah, well, it's even adapted to some extent to believe you have like power A, but sometimes even more power than you actually have, can can in some cases be adaptive.

SPEAKER_03 37:42

Well, and I was thinking about this, like, you know, split lip. We baby proofed our entire place, right? And it's like, okay, is this the illusion of control, right? Like, I know realistically, like my son's gonna get hurt. I did all these things to try and like avoid, you know, really catastrophic injuries. And maybe I will, yeah, and maybe I won't. And that's the uncertainty. And that's the hard part of like no matter how careful I am, or the other people who are with him, or at the end of the day, like I actually don't know what's coming my way or his way.

SPEAKER_10 38:14

No, parenting is yeah, that's all yeah, there's a lot of uncertainty.

Exposure To Not Knowing;

SPEAKER_03 38:18

So the these uncertain statements are like if I'm taking this example of like, you know, parenting, like it may be something like, I don't know all the joys or excitement or wonderful moments, and I don't know the pain and the scary and the frustrating moments that are coming my way in parenting. I mean, that's that's just like that's it. That's the answer to statement. Like, I could say, like, and I'm not quite sure how I'll, you know, respond or navigate each of those moments. I mean, I could add something to it, but even just in its sort of just that, it's hard to come up with even that because so often, like my brain will go to, I don't know when he's gonna split his, you know, chin open one day and how that's gonna be. And I say I don't know, but then I've like filled in the blank the other half with like this catastrophic thinking. Yeah. And so sometimes I'm trying to get my clients or myself to just like balance it a little more, like, why don't yeah, take a big step back and like let's look at this like as negative as positive and kind of give it a neutral uncertainty statement. And our brains just do not come up with that statement easily. Like the next time that you're anxious about something, think of an uncertainty statement.

SPEAKER_10 39:31

I'm almost not computing what you're saying right now. I know, like even listening to you talk about it, is like my brain is already not really like there. It's like hard.

SPEAKER_03 39:39

I could yeah. Oh, I guess like one I'll use for like somebody who has some somebody named Mia who has like if you're worried about like your your health in any given moment, right? Okay, I can say like I can't be for I can't say for certain my health status in any given moment, right? That's neutral. I'm not saying I don't know for sure or not if I have X, Y, and Z. Right. It's really just kind of being neutral and taking a step back. And I think the interesting thing is that clients and myself find uncertainty statements like anxiety provoking. Like they're used sometimes as an actual exposure.

SPEAKER_10 40:21

I was gonna say, so that's the exposure.

SPEAKER_03 40:23

Like sometimes it is doing an activity and and reading that statement, right? Like doing doing a podcast and reading the uncertainty statement. I don't actually know what anyone is gonna think of me. Yeah, positive or negative or neutral. And I can't say for certain, even if they tell me, I don't know really what they're thinking in their mind.

SPEAKER_09 40:40

What they really believe. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:43

And so sometimes it's just looking at the statement, sometimes it's looking at the statement and pairing it with an activity. And it's interesting because initially it can be very anxiety provoking. And then, like at some point, sometimes there's a shift where it's like, oh, I can just kind of let go. Like, I can't do anything about this. Right.

Sitting With Bodily Discomfort;

SPEAKER_09 41:02

Yeah. And that almost like a spontaneous once they engage with the uncertainty. Isn't that amazing? Yeah, yeah. I I was thinking that as you were saying that, like that stepping back and looking at like what is actually painful right now. It's the uncertainty. I don't know what this person thinks about me, and I'll never actually know. Yeah. Like, no, no. And it's like, okay, there's nothing I could do, you know. It's like, okay, there's a freedom there. Yeah. There may be grief, but also just like a freedom. Yeah, the both at the same time. The the both and. Yeah, the both and for sure. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like I've had days where it's like the whole day I'm trying to control some uncertain reality. I'm even thinking, like, obviously, it comes up with health for sure. But sometimes with health, like like then I think compare that to like fears about like money or uncertainty. I almost think there's like a more robust like illusion of control sometimes in life about that. Money. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 42:09

Like I can do things to guarantee that I'm safe in this way.

SPEAKER_03 42:15

Well, you can look at your bank account, but you can't look in your body.

unknown 42:18

Right.

SPEAKER_03 42:18

You know, like investigating. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of guessing. Totally. And granted, there's other guessing with finances and things like that. But right.

SPEAKER_09 42:28

Yeah. I'm trying to even think like maybe all of us can think about this. Like, is there an uncertainty right now in your life that it's like, okay, I could everything, Kelly.

SPEAKER_03 42:38

Everything.

SPEAKER_09 42:39

I know. I'm like trying to think something maybe that's really bothering me. Like lately. I'm sure Josh maybe could list off the things that are bothering me.

SPEAKER_07 42:48

I have an uncertainty that I don't know if the lamp would maybe look better if I moved it elsewhere. But I think you should keep talking and thinking about your own uncertainty.

SPEAKER_09 42:57

Would it look better you have to sit with that because you can't move in the middle of the pod?

SPEAKER_07 43:03

I was sitting with it for a while, but now I'm gonna get up and move it.

SPEAKER_03 43:06

Wait, I'm gonna ask you, Josh. I'm gonna ask you that. Wait, this is actually good. This is good.

SPEAKER_07 43:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 43:13

Okay, so you have this like you have this feeling that feels uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_07 43:16

Okay. Well, so I have three therapists.

SPEAKER_03 43:20

So the other thing I really like to do with uncertainty is just make space for it and walk someone through the experience of making space for the discomfort in your body. And so sometimes when and this is really like I do this exercise a million times for literally everything, but when you're uncertain, can you when you're feeling this agitation, let's say, of like, is it gonna look better or is it not gonna look better? I want to figure it out now, whatever it is. It's like if that feeling had a location and had a color in your body, what and where would it be?

SPEAKER_07 43:54

Red in my chest.

SPEAKER_03 43:56

And like, is it fuzzy? Is it cement? Is it Cement. Cement.

SPEAKER_07 44:02

Definitely. So I've said that. I've said my face feels like concrete.

SPEAKER_03 44:06

So the red cement feeling kind of in your chest. And now maybe take a couple deep breaths and just like notice that feeling, imagine that feeling. And I want you to think about sending oxygen to that part of your body. And just kind of think about making space for that feeling rather than trying to do something that's going to get rid of the feeling. We know that that feeling always ends up coming back in some way. For something else, another time. And so we're just going to make space for that feeling. And then sometimes I do this other stuff where I'm like, and if you want, you can put your hand over that part of you that feels that feeling. It kind of gets a little woo-woo. And you can kind of send yourself like kind energy, loving energy for it's hard to sit with that feeling and like kind of reminding yourself, like, I'm here with you, as you have to sit through that feeling. Can you just kind of breathe into it rather than doing anything about the feeling? You're still looking at the light. Oh no, you're not. Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_07 45:08

I was thinking about how this will probably really be a clip to like promote the show for this week, uh, which is ironic. Because I wanted to move the lights for the clip.

Introducing Alexandra Bayer;

SPEAKER_10 45:19

We're excited because we have a guest today.

SPEAKER_09 45:22

Yes, we have a guest today. I've been painfully ignoring her only because that's how we do the intro. But yes, we have a guest today. Our guest is Alexandra Bayer, or no, Bayer formerly Wallen now. Um, she's an LCSW, meaning a licensed clinical social worker and a therapist. And yeah, we'll let Alex join the pod and tell us a little bit about herself as a therapist. Welcome. Thank you for having me on the podcast. Yeah, welcome. Um, and we'll get into our topic largely. We're we're gonna talk a little bit today about inner child work. But yeah, first, Alex, tell us a little bit about what you do now as a therapist.

SPEAKER_02 46:05

Yeah, so I am a therapist. I have been practicing at a private practice called Chicago Center for Evidence-based treatment, C C B T for the past three years. And we predominantly work with anxiety, OCD, and eating disorders. And so I work with kids starting at like age four or five up until uh young adulthood. And before that, I did school-based counseling at a high school. So in general, I just really like working with teens, kids, young adults. And so that's a lot of where that like inner child work comes in as well. And um yeah, I love it. I love being a therapist. Yeah. Love a therapist podcast. So I was excited to come on here. Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_10 46:55

You're in good, you're in good company. Yes, all of us therapists. Is it all individual work?

SPEAKER_02 47:00

Yeah, I do well, sort of. I do mostly individual work, and then um I do something called family-based treatment for eating disorders, which is um, it involves usually both parents, sometimes siblings as well. So I'll do family therapy sometimes, and especially with the little kids, I do a lot of work with parents, but I don't do any um group therapy. So predominantly individual and and somewhat with families and the parents.

SPEAKER_10 47:27

What um I know I think I asked this to our previous guests as well. Like, what was your journey to get to being a therapist?

SPEAKER_02 47:35

Like so, yeah, I knew since I was five years old that I wanted to be a therapist.

SPEAKER_04 47:41

Oh, that's amazing.

Becoming A Therapist And Working With Youth;

SPEAKER_02 47:42

Um, this is yeah, so my mom, who was a guest before on the podcast, she's a therapist. Yeah, shout out to Elisa Bear. Um, so I knew since I was five because every time my mom would like get a call or be coordinating something with a client, I would like frantically stop whatever game I was playing and like run into a room and press my ear against the door and try to like really hear what was what she was talking about. And she's like, you need to leave. Like this is this is private.

SPEAKER_10 48:14

You see, wait, but did you know? So at that early age, did you know what she did? Yeah, you had like a you had a basic understanding of the other.

SPEAKER_02 48:22

I had a basic understanding that like my mom, my understanding probably at age five was like my mom is talking to people about emotions and like things that are going on in her per well, maybe I didn't know the word interpersonally, but like in relationships and with emotions, and I'd hear what she was saying, and I would just be like so gripped by it. Wow. And I like really wanted to know what was going on, and so yeah, my mom would sometimes like take me to work and then she like set everything up like an art project, games, put me in a separate room, and like it should have been super fun for me. But I was like, Can you turn off the noise machine and can I sit and listen to the session? She's like, No, you can't do that.

SPEAKER_10 49:06

Um But you wanted to you wanted to get in there.

SPEAKER_02 49:08

I wanted to get in there since I was five. So like so cool. I did really know since I was a kid um that I wanted to be a therapist. And then, like a little bit in college, I was kind of like, okay, maybe I should think about other careers. And then I just went right back to therapy. I'm like, nope, this is what I want to do. And I knew I wanted to work with kids too. I I as a kid had seen a lot of therapists, and like it I didn't really find a connection with like any therapist I had seen. So I also had a lot of ideas of like, don't want to do it that way or that way.

SPEAKER_09 49:44

Right.

SPEAKER_02 49:44

And so I had a lot of ideas for like how I'd want to work with kids and engage with kids and teens and like build that rapport based on what I honestly didn't like for the therapy that I received. It just felt like really forced, I thought. Like I remember there was like a dollhouse, and it was like, here's a mom and a dad. Like, what do they say to each other? And I was like, I'll tell you what my parents said in the conversation. But I don't want to edge this out. Like, I know what you're trying to do. Like for me, it just wasn't. So anyway.

SPEAKER_10 50:18

I was like, I'll tell you if you want me to tell you.

SPEAKER_02 50:20

And then they're like, do it through the dollhouse. Use the dolls. I'm off these. And it was also like, so it was like, here's a little girl, here's a mom and a dad. And I was like, I know what you're doing. So yeah, I think from a young age, I knew that I wanted to, yeah, work with kids and be a therapist. And I was very curious about getting in the room and doing that. And it was always just very interesting to me.

SPEAKER_10 50:48

Do you think it was like interesting in the and maybe it's both, but like just hearing what people like you had like a thirst for like hearing what people had to say or how what they were like talking about? Or were you like really wanting to get in there and like just like help people? Like, I just I know I want to help people, or maybe it's both. I don't know.

What Inner Child Work Really Means;

SPEAKER_02 51:05

I mean, I think it was nosiness, honestly. Yeah, I feel like that's 90%. I don't think I was like at age five, like, I need to hear these people, like, hear what's help them. I think I was just genuinely like, what are they talking about? Yeah, what are they talking about? Like, I just found it really interesting. Like, I just wanted to get in the room and know what was happening. And then I think when I experienced therapy and then knew, like, okay, this is what it is, and I think it could be something different, or there's like different ways to do it. Then I think it shifted to like, I want to be helpful in a way to kids that like I would have wanted at that age. And then it kind of like, as I grew up, it was like, and teens and adults, and you know, all of that. But no, at first I think it was truly like a little bit of nosiness of just like, what is my mom talking? Like, she's getting all this information. That's so cool. Like, I want to know what's going on in people's brains and like what they're experiencing.

SPEAKER_09 52:02

It kind of reminds me, like, how when we're young, especially being a kid, and like we're gonna talk about being your inner child, but um like my nieces will do this, like they want to play school, and school is like putting on a backpack, it's holding paper and a pen. And it's obviously not like what you're writing, what you're reading, it's like all the like dressing around it, which I think is there's something so sweet about that that like that the structure of it kind of comes first.

SPEAKER_10 52:32

Yeah, it's like procedural almost, like a setup.

SPEAKER_09 52:35

Yes, because I even think sometimes I have like an attraction to like the therapist archetype of like someone with like a sweater, with like a soft voice in a room, and there's like dim lighting and it's kind of ambient and like legal paths, yeah. There's like something that's almost like romantic or like calming about it, soothing about it. And then, like, of course, like we grow to like like the content, but it's yeah, I love that. I think it's so interesting. And I even wonder if sometimes there's like an inner child piece to that, right? Like with adults helping people like get back into that, you know, like the structure that you thought of certain things, the structure of even your childhood, and like immersing you back in that to help like rewire some things. And I love that. I love that you had this like, I want, I know I want to get in that room and do that.

SPEAKER_02 53:26

And I just like I think it was a combination of that. Then when you were talking about like what we picture with the therapist, my mom, I mean, I think she has like a very calming voice. And like when she would talk to people, I'm like, I want to know what's happening on the other side of that line. Like I did, I it was also like looking up to my mom and being like, I want to be what she is, and I want to like embody what she's embodying, and then just being so curious about it.

SPEAKER_09 53:53

And what's the deal?

SPEAKER_10 53:55

Well, it's interesting we're talking about inner child work too, because you had mentioned like you as a therapist now kind of being the way you wanted when you were a child that you weren't receiving right from your therapist. Totally. So almost a little bit of parallel process there in your profession where it's I wasn't given these things, maybe, where I wasn't finding connection in the therapy space as a child. And now as an adult, I'm providing that.

SPEAKER_02 54:24

Yeah, or trying.

SPEAKER_10 54:25

Yeah, correctively. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:27

Yeah. And I think that really, you know, it's different. The things that I work with kids now isn't necessarily the same things that I was talking about as a kid, but I do think that like what I didn't feel in therapy, like it felt very, at least in my experiences, like very like a rigid style of like, here's how we do things, and like this is how it goes. And for sure, there's nothing wrong with the dollhouse if that like is how someone connects. But like I personally with kids, it's just for me and teens, just like building a sense of comfort and rapport, which I mean sounds obvious, but I do think it is there's a lot of different ways I do that. Like, some things are more art-based with kids, some things are more play-based. Other kids want to talk more. And so I try to just kind of feel out like how can we set that stage for being comfortable to engage in whatever it is that's on their mind.

SPEAKER_09 55:21

It's hard to build so insightful, like and they're so like perceptive, you know. They're like, they know. They like oh, they'll call you out. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_10 55:30

If you're like that's why I work with adults, yeah, same.

SPEAKER_02 55:34

Yeah, yeah. Like with I remember I like walked in on a Monday or something, and I had like a raspy voice, and it was because I was at a concert, but like one of the clients is like, You don't sound good. What were you doing last weekend?

SPEAKER_11 55:45

Like, there's just no hello.

SPEAKER_10 55:48

No, how are you? It's like your voice is weird.

Reparenting, Self-Compassion, And Repair;

SPEAKER_09 55:50

Where were you? What were you doing this week? You were saying that the kids like noticing your raspy voice and saying, like, what were you doing? I feel like it's like adults can be so in therapy, like kind of the opposite in a way that sometimes is problematic, where it's like, Oh, I'm you know, I'm gonna be taking a vacation. It's like, well, good for you. I'm glad that you, you know, you take care of yourself as well. And like that's really so great. And it's funny because it's like it's sometimes almost like too much where you're like, oh, is this gonna be painful or is this gonna be or are you even judging me like for taking time off or whatever?

SPEAKER_02 56:21

Um yeah, kind of like the no-fill term. Like, if they're judging me, I'll know. Yeah, like I will not be wondering.

SPEAKER_09 56:26

Yeah, yeah. Well, maybe we want to sort of um define, because not everyone probably is even familiar with the term inner child. Right. And we're just, you know, using it and abusing it. So let's um let's define. I mean, I could give like my working definition of it, but I'm curious how you might define it.

SPEAKER_02 56:46

Sure, yeah. I I would like to hear yours first because you're so good with definitions. Then I'll then I'll add.

SPEAKER_09 56:52

I'm thinking of it a little bit in this idea or this concept that within us is this younger part of us. The idea a lot of times of contacting your inner child in therapy is whether you're doing this like explicitly or it's a more kind of implicit part of the therapeutic process, you're you're contacting kind of a past part of you that's likely wounded in some way as life is full of struggle and we collect wounds like in life. And some of them are like pretty persistent and show up a lot in our present-day adulthood. And yeah, like inner child work is like some form of contacting that wounding and helping resolve it, helping find resolution in that. And there's like a million ways you can do this.

SPEAKER_10 57:40

But it also, I know that the word came up I think pre-recording. I don't think we were recording yet, but like trauma. Certainly, we want to view things through a trauma-informed lens. But when we do inner child work, we're not saying it has to be something traumatic that happened, right?

SPEAKER_09 57:55

Yeah, not like like capital T, capital T, that type of thing.

SPEAKER_10 57:59

These could be these wounded parts, things that we maybe were not given as children from caregivers or systems as well. I uh that's more of a question. I'm not necessarily statement. You're absolutely right.

SPEAKER_09 58:11

I'm curious what you think. But I think, yeah, like painful past memories that show up, and when they show up now, they still hurt.

SPEAKER_02 58:18

When I think of inner child work going along that lens, it is like those moments and kind of themes and stories that we continue to like notice in ourselves when we get activated of like what's coming up for me, what's this bringing back? What's this connect? Like, what's the pain there? And like, how am I reenacting this story in other ways or in other relationships sometimes? Yeah. I think of it as sometimes connecting with your younger self of like, can I communicate with my young self in moments whether it's something that is the big T or the little T is maybe a bigger trauma or you know, any sort of experience that shaped you as a kid. And then like thinking that a lot of those early experiences are really pivotal and attachment and how we connect with the world, how we perceive the world, and like the patterns we kind of fall into. So yeah, when I think of inner child work, I think of it a lot as like connecting with your younger self. Like I will think of myself and like think of little Alex and like what's coming up for for her, and sort of like about sitting with her in the moment, like her on the couch next to me. Yeah, like what would I tell her? And like what would I want to say? And how could I connect with little Alex? And like I'll use that with clients a lot too of like, what is that bringing up from your past, and how are these stories in your present day connecting with moments from your childhood? And if little you was sitting there, like what would we say to her? Yeah, and that that can be really powerful, I think. And like sometimes being more gentle and kind with yourself in the present. Turning you into that parent. Yeah, and like sometimes, like if there's self-critical language or mean language that someone's hearing in their brain and using towards themselves, it's like, where is this coming from? Yeah, and can I sort of have a gentler language? Like, would I talk to my five-year-old self that way? You know? So that's sort of how I think of it. It's like if I'm picturing little Alex right there, like would I be calling her those things or saying those things? And and so sometimes I think it can help with some self-compassion and kindness.

SPEAKER_09 1:00:29

Yeah, oh, definitely. I was thinking like reparenting work, which like so much of therapy of any kind is like reparenting in a lot of ways, um, is kind of like the wise mind parenting the inner child, right? Like instead of the inner child seeking resolution from the outside world or something like you know, from whatever, like a perpetrator, right, from the past, you know, whether that be a a major perpetrator or a pretty minor one, like finding like, is there a part within you, a wise mind within you, that can actually soothe you, have compassion for you, and even like contextualize this moment so that it's digestible and tolerable for you, like the the wise mind and inner part of you.

SPEAKER_10 1:01:18

Is the reparenting when you're doing this work something that you are are people resistant to? Do they feel like because sometimes with self-compassion type of work, there's like there's some resistance to this feels inauthentic, it feels um like cheesy cheesy. Yeah, I didn't really want to say that it's so judgmental. But people do say it, and people do judge. So is the when when you're doing this work and the reparenting, is there a lot like do you find there's a lot of resistance to it?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:48

And maybe you frame it in a way that's yeah, no, I mean I think that they're definitely I think like when it comes to we're so programmed to do anything one way, like it's really uncomfortable to engage in it in a different way. Yes, there's oftentimes resistance of or just like a lot of different things, whether it's like it feels cheesy or that doesn't work for me, or that's not going to work. And I think that like I try to just be patient with that and be like, can we dip our toes into like this element of it? And like, I'm also not like super fixed on any language that I'm using. So like I think different language works with different people. Like I refer to my younger self as like little Alex or young Alex or whatever, but it's like different or like self-compassion. Like, I'm not so caught up in like what we're calling it at the end of the day. Like, if something feels like cheesy or inauthentic to somebody, I wouldn't say like, oh, it shouldn't, or like, let's change that thing. Like, I more maybe explore like what that is or what's coming up, or does other language not feel that way? What works for you, yeah.

SPEAKER_10 1:02:54

Yeah, you give me the language.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:56

Right, you give me the language, and a lot of times it is just like, what do we associate those things with? Yeah, it's funny.

SPEAKER_09 1:03:02

Like, I've definitely had people say the like stupid kind of thing.

SPEAKER_10 1:03:09

The eyes, you see the eyes roll a little bit. They're like, all right, clear inner channels, sure. Okay, Freud over there. Yeah, like some sort of judgment.

Lori Tolin On Shadow Work;

SPEAKER_09 1:03:21

But sometimes I will say, like, yeah, it's fucking cheesy. And like, does that matter? Right. Like, let's see if it helps you. Let's see if it helps. Cheese and all. Yeah. You know. Our guest today is our good friend and former coworker and colleague forever and ever, Lori Tolin, LCSW. Yeah. LCP. LCPC. LCPC.

SPEAKER_10 1:03:45

Another LCPC in the hook. Of course, of course.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:49

I still thanks for having me, guys. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_10 1:03:52

I still remember when you passed your exam.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:55

You guys decorated my desk. Yeah. It was so nice.

SPEAKER_10 1:03:58

It was great.

SPEAKER_09 1:03:58

Wait, I was there. Or you had already gotten it when I got there. You were there. I was there. Yeah. Because you decorated my desk for mine, right? Yeah. Yes. I guess I remember our boss was like, you're gonna keep these decorations up forever.

unknown 1:04:12

I was like, I guess so.

SPEAKER_10 1:04:14

Wasn't there, am I remembering this incorrectly? Wasn't so you passed, and then wasn't there like another person somewhere in the building who like took a test for licensure, like either that same week and like felt terrible because they didn't pass it or something like that?

SPEAKER_06 1:04:28

No. You don't remember that? But I feel anyone who's not gonna be able to do that.

SPEAKER_10 1:04:31

I feel like people were like, well, we might want to like quiet it down, John. I was like, nope, wrong. I don't know that person. I'm gonna celebrate Lori.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:38

Oh my god, thanks. But also, I actually appreciate that you guys kept that from me because I didn't know that, and I would have felt like bad celebrating.

SPEAKER_10 1:04:47

Oh, I wouldn't have.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:48

And I didn't actually feel bad celebrating. No, you shouldn't sell you should always celebrate yourself. Me at that time totally would have felt bad.

SPEAKER_10 1:04:55

You at that time, yes. Me at that time didn't feel bad. And we continued to celebrate, and I was like, who cares if that person failed? Like, I I mean, I that sucks for them not to be, but I was like, I don't know them, but like, you know, this has nothing to do with me celebrating.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:09

Right separate. Yes.

SPEAKER_10 1:05:12

What so you're an LCPC. Tell us just a little bit about your work and who you work with.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:17

So it's taken a different course from where we all started, but I'm very relational and psychodynamic in my work, and I'm very into parts work and somatic informed therapy and trauma-informed therapy. Yeah. So that's kind of where I'm at now. I work with young adults, adults, and I work with couples now too.

SPEAKER_10 1:05:34

Couples work. I do.

SPEAKER_09 1:05:37

Wow, I love that.

SPEAKER_10 1:05:38

That's great.

SPEAKER_09 1:05:38

Do you work? You you don't, but I think there's the one area I've never really treaded. Not in a real way.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:44

Yeah. I was kind of scared for a while, if I'm being honest. It's scary. But then I've seen enough now where I'm like, okay, I know what I'm doing. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_11 1:05:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:55

So I remember it's good. And it's a lot of process work, which is what I like. So in the moment. Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_09 1:06:01

Yeah, that's true. Like the relational piece that's live. Yes. Totally. Okay, well, maybe we should move into our topic. Okay. Okay. So today our topic is shadow work. So we'll explain a little bit what we mean by this. But I'm actually curious, what do you when you first think of that idea? Shadow work. What comes up for either of you?

SPEAKER_10 1:06:23

Well, I don't think I do much of it, so or at least in what you've talked about before. So Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 1:06:30

Well, tell us about that.

SPEAKER_10 1:06:31

Um tell us about what?

SPEAKER_09 1:06:33

That you don't do much of it.

Naming Shame And Disowned Parts;

SPEAKER_10 1:06:35

Yeah, I guess I I guess I would need a definition of what shadow work is in order to Well, what makes you think you don't do it?

SPEAKER_09 1:06:43

Because I think you do.

SPEAKER_10 1:06:45

Um Well, I don't say shadow work at all.

SPEAKER_09 1:06:48

Yeah, you don't use the word.

SPEAKER_10 1:06:49

My guess would be it's probably more of just like eliciting things from people that they're trying to avoid.

SPEAKER_09 1:06:56

Like helping people not avoid their experience.

SPEAKER_10 1:07:00

Probably, yeah. If that's what we're if that's what aw shadow is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 1:07:06

I'm thinking about well, I'm curious, Laurie, what's your first?

SPEAKER_06 1:07:09

Um, I think of it as something that we're either aware of hiding or unaware that we're hiding in ourselves or like others.

SPEAKER_11 1:07:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:20

And I think in clinically, I think it's very closely tied to shame.

SPEAKER_11 1:07:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:24

Because whatever their secrets are shame kind of thing. And so, like for me in the room, it's a lot about trying to help kind of what you were just saying though. Like it's they're avoiding it a lot of the time.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:36

Or just totally unaware of it. And so then it's like bringing that awareness forward of where those shadows lie so that they can have more insight and create change from there.

SPEAKER_09 1:07:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:46

Is the way that I think about it. Totally. Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 1:07:48

I believe from everything that I've known and researched, it originates from Jungian psychotherapy, which is like basically like disavowed parts of self. You know, like parts of yourself you don't like that you kind of put away into your subconscious or almost like hold down.

SPEAKER_10 1:08:06

So then the shadow work is to what?

SPEAKER_09 1:08:07

Bring the shadow to light, not to use like shadow and I mean, gotta love that visual. For me in my own therapy work, I think it is the single most healing thing I've ever done. Like I remember doing it for the first time, more kind of like I was in my with with my therapist Melissa, who I worked with for a long time, was also doing these like manifestation practices on the side. Shout out to manifestation. Um, so I was doing almost like a program around shadow work and then taking it into my therapy. And I I felt like it changed my entire life to like find what it is about myself that I reject. In what situations do I feel the most shame? And like, what do I believe about myself there?

SPEAKER_10 1:08:52

I mean, what makes shadow having like so what makes it maladaptive?

SPEAKER_06 1:08:57

I think it's what drives us to replicate patterns that don't serve us, like in our relationships. Like when you hear yourself clients others, like it's like, why does someone keep getting in their own way? Or like, why does this same relationship pattern keep playing out? It's like usually there's a shadow there.

SPEAKER_09 1:09:14

Yeah, it's a part of self you're fighting. I I kind of use that metaphor, and like some of my clients think this is so fucking cheesy, but like you know, X-Men, the character who makes herself look normal, the Jennifer Lawrence and the new ones, yeah, and uses all this energy mystique, mystique. Yeah, yeah. She uses all this energy to not be blue to fit in. And there's like one character who's like, why do you waste your energy like that? Should be as you are, like you're so powerful. That's often like there's this inner conflict of like shoving into a closet an actual part of your humanity and self. Non-acceptance of self really breeds like non-acceptance of so many things. Yeah. You know, like almost anything in front of you. And like self-trust. Totally.

Needs, Patterns, And Inner Knowing;

SPEAKER_06 1:09:59

Well, I'm just like thinking about, and this is like kind of like a I don't know what you want to call it, but I was like noticing this on my way here of like I have like a part of myself that like I would consider maybe like historically a shadow part of like if I'm in a setting talking about work or something academic in some way, yeah. Like to I have to prove myself. And so I noticed that part coming up. So I was like actively like ground yourself. Like this is old stuff, this isn't new stuff, you know. And so, like the almost like that imposter syndrome kind of thing, kind of elicits that shadow of like how do you be as you are and be comfortable in yourself? And like thankfully, I know you guys historically, so it's like I I don't have you know, I can leave that pretty quickly, yeah, but it still comes up totally, you know, totally, yeah.

SPEAKER_09 1:10:50

And I'm sure it doesn't come up in every setting like this.

SPEAKER_06 1:10:54

It's like there's like a it's a specific thing, or if like someone who's not a therapist, like especially I'm like surrounded by parents now and they're all like, what are your thoughts about this thing about my kid, or like my this person in my life, and I'm like, I have a moment where I'm like, Oh, I need to answer this, and then I'm like, No, I don't, I'm not the expert in the situation.

SPEAKER_11 1:11:16

Right.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:16

But like that's kind of the shadow of like to get it, you know. I feel like a good way of thinking about it is like, how did we get our needs met growing up? And often it's like in a way that's not necessarily it was functional then, but maybe isn't functional now. And so then we have to look at what's the unmet need.

SPEAKER_11 1:11:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:34

And so how do we meet? I don't know if this is like getting to whatever, but like how do we meet how do we meet that need within ourselves now?

SPEAKER_09 1:11:40

I mean, I do really believe they pretty much all come from early childhood.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 1:11:45

And it's to your point, it's like you disavow the part of you for a reason, for a functional reason. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:52

I notice like the second I get into like problem-solving mode with the client, usually there's something there that like they're avoiding something within themselves. And if they can let go of whatever that is, like the shadow, they can just connect to like maybe it sounds a little woo-woo, but like their inner knowing, I guess. Of like, okay. Yeah, what yeah, there we go. Full circle.

SPEAKER_09 1:12:14

Yeah, but now we'll move into our how wise is a question. How wise is it to own a pet or pets? So I'm curious. First blush, what do we think? Do any of us have pets? No.

SPEAKER_10 1:12:28

I grew up with two cats, uh-huh, not at the same time. One past we had one from I was like in first grade, maybe. Until like check my watch until now. Uh until I was like a freshman in high school, and then we got another one when I was like a soft or junior in high school, maybe or something like that.

SPEAKER_09 1:12:49

So are you do you identify more as a cat person?

SPEAKER_10 1:12:52

No, my parents didn't want a dog. And so I think that that was kind of like what we were left with was that we it was kind of like we were able to get a cat, which I'm allergic to, but I like when we like had the cat visit us for a weekend, I like tried to hold in all of my sneezes and not blow my nose as much as possible so that my parents would still get it. Oh um, so I grew up with it, and I think it was a a nice experience to have like a pet around. Um, but I don't currently own, I just rent pets. No, I'm kidding. I don't have any pets.

SPEAKER_08 1:13:25

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_10 1:13:26

I I mean, I think it's definitely wise for a lot of reasons. It's not wise for me to have a pet now.

SPEAKER_07 1:13:32

Yeah. I don't I don't think it's wise right now. Yeah. Because I'm too much of a pet lover. I kind of want to love other people's pets and just have like a lot of time to edit, do my work. They are different dishes. See that they are time. I get like too obsessed with them.

How Wise Is It To Have Pets;

SPEAKER_09 1:13:47

Josh, literally, when we're home in Michigan, or in Josh's childhood home in Michigan, he you literally will walk the dogs for like 30 minutes, and then it's like 30 minutes later, he's like, I gotta take the dogs out.

SPEAKER_08 1:13:58

Like you're out of your mind.

SPEAKER_09 1:14:00

You gotta give them a pack.

SPEAKER_07 1:14:02

But I bet they love it.

SPEAKER_09 1:14:03

Yeah. Yeah. It's hard. I think you gotta have limits, and if it's hard for you to have limits, it's probably not wise.

SPEAKER_07 1:14:08

I'm psyching myself up to be a dad.

SPEAKER_09 1:14:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:14:11

Totally wise.

SPEAKER_09 1:14:12

But it's a pet on top of that, it's like Yeah, getting a pet when you're just about to hopefully get a kid.

SPEAKER_10 1:14:18

Have some self-compassion. No revenue. You know, I know we're focusing on dogs, but there could be other pets.

SPEAKER_09 1:14:22

Yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_10 1:14:23

Yeah, there can be cats. What do you think, Lori? Fish.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:26

I mean, not wise for me. Yeah. Two kids is kind of enough for me to take care of 100.

SPEAKER_07 1:14:33

Another thing to take care of. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:35

Like, I don't have the capacity. And we have allergies. We have like my in-laws have a dog, and our good friends have a dog, and that's enough, I think. I do think that's the sweet spot.

SPEAKER_07 1:14:49

Like a lot of people around you that are doing all the walks. Have dogs in your life, have cats in your life.

SPEAKER_10 1:14:54

That reminds me of one of Sarah, my wife's co-workers. She has three kids, and for Mother's Day one year, like her husband got her like this huge plant, and she was like, Thanks, another thing to try to keep alive. And I was like, That's an amazing response. So true. Like another thing I have to keep alive. Right.

SPEAKER_07 1:15:13

Yeah, that's a good point. Because you're dad now. You don't need a plant. I'm like thinking about being a dad, so it's like I gotta take care of these plants, like prove to myself I can be a dad. Yeah, I haven't killed most of these plants. No, you're pretty good. But I killed a plant in Los Angeles, and I was like, I could never be a dad.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:31

Different level of care.

SPEAKER_10 1:15:32

Yeah. Wait, wait, I have I have like a shadow question to ask about pets.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_10 1:15:37

What is a pet that, you know, maybe you have some shame about thinking this, but that you think is kind of like a worthless pet. That when people have it, you're like, I can't say it, but that's actually kind of like a worthless pet.

SPEAKER_09 1:15:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_10 1:15:49

An otter?

SPEAKER_09 1:15:51

Do people have those? She's a legal otter.

SPEAKER_10 1:15:54

Those are I'm with because otters are so cute. Yeah. And the young sleep on their like their mom's tummies. Yeah, their mom's tummies when they float.

SPEAKER_06 1:16:03

Yeah. Yeah. It is very cute. Yeah.

SPEAKER_10 1:16:05

Because I kind of have like I feel bad about saying that, but like birds.

SPEAKER_09 1:16:08

Oh, yeah. I had a bird grown up.

SPEAKER_10 1:16:10

Like people who have birds in their house, I'm like, that like creeps me out.

SPEAKER_09 1:16:13

Sorry. No, it was totally. We regretted it like week one. Yeah. And the bird like hated us. It was like the nastiest bird. Plus, plus it's hard. I mean, maybe it was just like these people have no idea how to care for a bird. This was like an impulsive purchase.

SPEAKER_06 1:16:28

I've never heard someone say they had a bird as a pet and like didn't follow it up with like the bird hated us.

SPEAKER_10 1:16:36

Yeah. And my emotion always wants to, my shadow always wants to be like, why?

SPEAKER_05 1:16:42

Yeah. Like a bird?

SPEAKER_09 1:16:44

Well, I had a friend who had a bird that was a friendly bird, and we had a good experience with it. You could like have it on your finger and like have it on your shoulder. And like I thought that was cool. Got it. So I kind of just like copied my friend. And then like our family's not like these like pet, like adventure. It was like we got lizards too. Like gecko. Lizards, live crickets. You sure do. So we, of course, like one day my younger brother's like putting the basket of crickets, like theoretically in the thing.

SPEAKER_10 1:17:15

Everywhere.

SPEAKER_09 1:17:16

Everywhere. Oh my god. There were crickets for weeks.

SPEAKER_10 1:17:18

That's so gross.

SPEAKER_08 1:17:19

It was crazy. It was crazy.

unknown 1:17:22

Weeks.

SPEAKER_08 1:17:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_10 1:17:23

And then they're loud.

SPEAKER_07 1:17:25

Did they keep you all? Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_10 1:17:27

It's like Fear Factor. Yeah, you're not crawling all over. They're loud.

SPEAKER_09 1:17:30

It's crazy. As I'm reflecting, it's funny that my parents let us do all this. Yeah, that they just were like, you want to burn. Yeah, they're like, they took us to the store. Yeah. And we we had a dog as well for 17 years, 16 years. Um, yeah. Yeah, we had a turtle, lots of stuff. Yeah. Pretty crazy. For like people that aren't don't consider themselves like they don't identify like that, you know, like exotic pet. There's exotic pet households. Right. Like, definitely not us. Yeah. We tried it on. We never had a cat. That's the one we never had. Fish we had. I maybe I think fish are kind of pointless. Is that sad? You know what we did with a fish?

SPEAKER_10 1:18:16

There we go. Talk about shadow right now.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:19

I definitely want to know that was. No, it's not that bad, but we basically let Aiden get a fish for the purpose of like have being able to teach him about death. Oh that is kind of great. It was, but then the fish wouldn't die. Oh the fish was like it was like a beta fish.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:38

Too long. But I mean, eventually he died.

SPEAKER_09 1:18:41

And and was it helpful?

SPEAKER_06 1:18:43

Like, not really. It was too abstract for him at that age. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. He like kind of once we he experienced another like form of death, he then he related it back to the fish. So obviously it stuck with him in some way.

SPEAKER_09 1:18:58

Oh so smart. Yeah.

SPEAKER_10 1:19:00

But like hamsters and gerbils and mice. They smell really good.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:05

Oh my god, I do not want a mouse in my house ever.

SPEAKER_07 1:19:09

Never mouse in the pet mice.

unknown 1:19:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 1:19:12

Isn't that what they say? I've seen it.

SPEAKER_10 1:19:14

Yeah, with the wheel and the little like drink out of the thing and the little like metal balls.

SPEAKER_09 1:19:20

Yeah, gerbils people have. And what's the other bigger hamsters?

SPEAKER_07 1:19:23

Guinea pig. Guinea pig. Oh my god. It truly like puts a chill down my spine. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 1:19:29

Not so wise.

SPEAKER_10 1:19:30

Not so wise.

SPEAKER_07 1:19:31

We're all in our 30s, either with kids or thinking about having kids. But maybe when our kids go to college. Oh, sorry. You're uh I wish I were but I look like it. John is 28. Good point.

SPEAKER_09 1:19:44

Speaking of that, Josh and I went to a bar yesterday before we went to our like little anniversary dinner. They carted Josh and not me. Because I'm 28. Oh my god. I mean, I'm like, I look nowhere near 21, but like neither do you.

SPEAKER_10 1:19:58

No, I probably look 48. Were they like way to bag that cougar?

SPEAKER_07 1:20:04

Go get them, Tiger.

SPEAKER_10 1:20:05

Go get them.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:06

Oh my god. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_10 1:20:07

So not wise for this room, maybe.

Humor, Boundaries, And Closing Notes

SPEAKER_09 1:20:11

Oh yeah. When I was on dating apps, there would be a lot of like profiles I would say of guys that were like looking to be your next like dog dad. And I was like, so weird. Yeah. Like trying to get your dog dad? Wow. Like wanting to meet someone who had a dog.

SPEAKER_10 1:20:26

Yeah, that's a interesting. Yeah. But people who love dogs really love dogs. They really do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 1:20:33

I loved my childhood dog, but like I'm not that person that's like obsessed with every single dog.

SPEAKER_10 1:20:37

But you know, some person's like super excited to be like, finally, a guy who's wanting to be my dog today.

SPEAKER_09 1:20:42

Yes, absolutely. Well, Josh had quite a few dog pictures. He was a lot of fobble. Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:20:48

We almost missed missed our opportunity. Almost would have been like, okay.

SPEAKER_09 1:20:53

But like, I would see pictures of guys, like every picture was them and their dog. It's like, why don't you just date your dog? That's just ridiculous.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:59

Like, yeah, what are they trying to communicate to you?

SPEAKER_09 1:21:01

What on earth?

SPEAKER_06 1:21:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 1:21:04

Okay. Well, maybe that's our own.

SPEAKER_10 1:21:06

We've really, we really solved it again.

SPEAKER_09 1:21:08

We've solved it. Every time. Yay. All right. Take care, everyone. Bye. The WiseMind Happy Hour podcast is for entertainment purposes only, not to be treated as medical advice. If you are struggling with your mental health, please seek medical attention or counseling.