how wise is SELF-DISCLOSURE?

Have you ever fantasized about knowing ALL OF THE INNER WORKINGS of your therapist's life? And do you ever wonder why they share NOTHING with you? (Or maybe they're more like an open book.) Regardless, a therapist revealing a little bit about themselves during a session can be both helpful and harmful (depending on the context) and the wise mind can be key in differentiating whether or not it's a proper moment to "self-disclose."

- music by blanket forts -

Transcript

Catching Up And Kid Basketball

SPEAKER_03 0:09

All right, welcome to the Wise Mind Happy Hour. I'm John. I was just going along with playing it for its music. I love it. Doing a little beatboxing. Yeah. Beatboxing with it in the background. And we're always joined by Josh, our producer as well. What up? Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 0:23

Welcome.

SPEAKER_03 0:24

It's been a while.

SPEAKER_05 0:25

It's been a while.

SPEAKER_03 0:26

Sick. Maybe you can hear it. It sounds a little you sound a little congested. And you were sick. So then we didn't.

SPEAKER_05 0:32

So we didn't record. We said we were going to do an episode on biofeedback and then we went dark. Well, actually, we did Josh did an amazing other best of episode.

SPEAKER_03 0:43

Yeah, it was great. Best of our guests.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

Best of our guests. If you weren't in it, you'll be in the next episode.

SPEAKER_03 0:50

You'll be yes, absolutely. We have so much content.

SPEAKER_01 0:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 0:53

And we we are going to have that guest back, hopefully.

SPEAKER_05 0:56

Yes, we're in the works with that.

SPEAKER_03 0:58

Definitely. So how have you been other than sick?

SPEAKER_05 1:01

Sick. I'm honestly like as of maybe like yesterday, I really turned a corner and feel way better and don't feel sick. And you, of course, are feeling pretty.

SPEAKER_03 1:10

Well, I was sick like a couple weeks ago.

SPEAKER_05 1:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:13

Like a month ago.

SPEAKER_05 1:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:15

And then I got sick again. I I honestly think it's just being, I will, everybody has kind of something right now, but I'm just around so many kids. Sure. And I'm in joining the friends, they're over.

SPEAKER_05 1:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:28

I'm at the basketball game with all the other parents, which you guys joined. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:32

Which was amazing. Oh, we went to a basketball game.

SPEAKER_03 1:35

Wes' basketball game. You all were willing to come, and you saw some fifth grade basketball to scratch that itch. I know you've been waiting for it.

SPEAKER_05 1:43

I mean, we were so excited about it.

SPEAKER_03 1:46

It was a blast. He was so happy that you guys came. And he was like smiling when he saw you guys in the stadium.

SPEAKER_05 1:51

Oh, it was so fun to watch him play. He's really good.

SPEAKER_03 1:54

He's good, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:55

He's great.

SPEAKER_03 1:56

His team is great too. Like they all pass. That score, the score of that game ended up being 45 to nothing.

SPEAKER_05 2:03

Oh my. I was really wondering. I'm like, did the other team even score?

SPEAKER_03 2:07

So yeah, I think that that team is certainly not one of the best teams in the league. Um, and you know, I I really appreciate Wes's coach for a lot of reasons, but he was subbing a lot of guys in. And still, I just feel like every I think that was a little bit of an anomaly. There, all their shots were like going in.

SPEAKER_05 2:27

Yeah, totally. They were on fire.

SPEAKER_03 2:29

They were on fire. So it just was one of those things where I think the stars aligned, and I did feel bad about the other team. I don't think the coach was trying to rub it in at all. I think he was trying to get everybody equal playing time, and people's shots were just falling.

SPEAKER_05 2:41

People's shots were falling. You can't.

SPEAKER_03 2:43

Yeah. What did you I you you both commented on this? What did you think of the shoes?

SPEAKER_05 2:48

The shoes were incredible. Aren't they incredible these days? Yeah. Like these bright orange, bright blue. Really cool.

SPEAKER_03 2:57

It was like black, red, and blue when I was growing and white when I was growing up.

SPEAKER_05 3:01

I feel like it was mostly white.

SPEAKER_03 3:03

It was like, did neon colors only exist in highlighters back then?

SPEAKER_05 3:08

Right or like nobody had the guts to design a completely green shoe.

SPEAKER_03 3:13

Like I remember neon being a fashion thing in like the late 80s and the 90s, but only on clothing. I feel like they did not put it on shoes very often.

SPEAKER_05 3:21

We had this guy in our neighborhood growing up that people used to claim invented neon. It's like, how could you do that? I always did a spit take there. I mean, is that that can't be real? Invented neon what the exactly. The version was like neon.

SPEAKER_03 3:36

Like, isn't neon?

SPEAKER_05 3:37

It's like, didn't like God invent neon?

SPEAKER_03 3:39

Like what else for the color or because is it it?

SPEAKER_05 3:43

It's a gas.

SPEAKER_03 3:44

It's an element.

SPEAKER_05 3:45

It is an element. Okay, so obviously this is a problem. It's definitely an element. This was like some six girls.

SPEAKER_02 3:51

I'm curious about like he invented neon. Like, what does that even mean?

SPEAKER_05 3:57

I honestly think the real story is that he just like wore a lot of neons. Yeah. Yeah. I don't even think there was inventing up.

SPEAKER_03 4:06

And because he invented it, he's able to produce all this clothing. Yeah. Therefore, then that's a really funny story.

SPEAKER_05 4:13

Yeah, but even he, I don't remember him wearing neon shoes. You know what's so great about the neon shoes, too, is like you can really find your kid in the mix. So nice.

SPEAKER_03 4:24

I know. And luckily, Wes has orange ones, and I don't think many people on his team have orange ones. There's like the kind of greenish ones and like purple, but yeah, there are like these like teal ones.

SPEAKER_04 4:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:35

A couple kids. Oh, yeah. A couple kids had the teal ones. Yeah. Felix. Those are all.

SPEAKER_05 4:39

My brain likes that color teal.

SPEAKER_03 4:41

It is nice.

SPEAKER_05 4:42

It's like I I mean it's kind of my birthstone, so maybe that's part of it. But yeah, it's a nice color. I like the orange shirt. It's like a cooler color. That's like a cool tone. The orange, you really can tell. It's like almost on fire. Yeah. Looked great. I loved his shoes.

SPEAKER_01 4:55

Did you look up Neon? Oh, I've been looking up a lot of stuff, but what do you want to know? I just wanted to know who invented neon. Oh, uh George Claude. He discovered it. He invented the neon lights. Got it.

SPEAKER_05 5:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:11

Who invented the neon element? That would be the universe, probably.

SPEAKER_05 5:17

Wait, you know what a fun fact about the elements? Maybe you know this. I remember my science teacher telling us this in probably like freshman year of high school.

SPEAKER_03 5:25

This can't possibly be that fun.

Neon, Elements, And Science Tangents

SPEAKER_05 5:27

Murray. Murray Curie. Yes. Madam Curie discovered a few elements, but she discovered polonium.

SPEAKER_03 5:35

Polonium.

SPEAKER_05 5:36

And she named it after like, I think Poland, her like home country.

SPEAKER_03 5:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 5:40

She wore like a vial of polonium, and it ended up being partially what killed her. Because like you're actually not supposed to be exposed to that, and she didn't know that.

SPEAKER_03 5:50

And she's putting it right by her like vital organ of the heart.

SPEAKER_05 5:54

Which I don't know if that's a true story, but I remember a science teacher telling us that.

SPEAKER_03 6:00

What other elements did she discover? Like radium.

SPEAKER_05 6:03

I think radium.

SPEAKER_03 6:04

I want to say radium too, but that does not. I don't know why I want to say radium.

SPEAKER_05 6:09

Murray Curie. I mean, shout out. What an what an absolute queen.

SPEAKER_03 6:14

Definitely a queen.

SPEAKER_05 6:14

Merrie Curie death. Let's look at that. A blood disease caused by decades of exposure to high levels of radiation.

SPEAKER_03 6:21

Radiation, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 6:22

She died of a plastic anemia believed to be induced by her pioneering work with radium and polonium, as well as her use of x-ray units during World War One.

SPEAKER_03 6:31

Yeah, I mean, huge advancements, but you gotta be careful, you know.

SPEAKER_05 6:35

Totally.

SPEAKER_03 6:36

But you don't know what you're getting into, probably.

SPEAKER_05 6:39

You don't know what you don't know.

SPEAKER_03 6:40

You don't know what you don't know.

SPEAKER_05 6:41

It's like, what if we find out spindrift? It's like polonium. We're fucked.

SPEAKER_03 6:47

That's terrifying. Especially because they're a sponsored. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 6:51

Especially because they absolutely pay our mortgages. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:55

Wait, but okay, so neon, interesting. Polonium, interesting, radium, interesting. Yeah. Who discovers all these things? We don't know.

SPEAKER_05 7:04

Yeah. Scientists. Well, also, it's like, how do you discover an element? You're just like digging around. I mean, we're so far beyond what I know in terms of like science. So we'll hear off this topic. I was like the only science I was okay at was physics.

SPEAKER_03 7:21

I was not good at physics.

SPEAKER_05 7:22

I don't even think I was too much math. Yeah. Maybe the math of it helped me a little, but I wasn't even that good at math. So that doesn't even really make sense. But I thought it was interesting.

SPEAKER_03 7:32

I didn't like my chemistry teacher, so that was kind of a like dud for me.

SPEAKER_05 7:36

I was like, Yeah, my chemistry teacher was like fine.

SPEAKER_03 7:39

The progression for me in high school is like like earth science or something first, and then it's like biology, sophomore year, chemistry, and then physics or something like that. Yeah, I like or like anatomy and physiology or something and biology. I don't know. Totally. Anyway, this is boring. This is so cool. So yeah, so what have you so other than seeing Wes play, what else uh have you done?

SPEAKER_05 7:59

So even though I was a little under the weather, we did brave my friend's wedding in Indianapolis because really it was just a cold. And I was kind of like, I was already coming out of it by the time Friday we left Friday. So we went to this wedding in Indianapolis, which was so fun. We saw my friends from grad school, my like therapist friends from grad school. Although the the girl who got married, shout out to my friend Megan, actually is no longer a therapist. She went to law school and she's a lawyer now. Okay. Um, she actually is a social worker, a CPA, and a lawyer, which is great.

SPEAKER_03 8:33

Did she do mental health law or no?

SPEAKER_05 8:35

She she does a little bit more with her accounting and law degrees. I know with the firm she works at now, she likes when they have a lot of like accounting complexity things, they call on her. Um, but yeah, shout out to Megan. It was so fun to go see our friends hang out. That was amazing. And yeah, that was just a good time. Indianapolis is okay, you know.

SPEAKER_03 8:59

I had a good time when I went down there.

SPEAKER_05 9:01

Yeah, it's like fine. It's not Milwaukee.

SPEAKER_03 9:04

It's not I wanted to give a shout out. There's a record store that I had a good time at down there. I can't remember the name of it, but I have a sticker of it that I can picture. But um, yeah, I had a friend who lived in a suburb of Indianapolis, and we spent like a night in the city, and it was fun. Yeah, yeah, like different pockets and totally they're building it up.

SPEAKER_05 9:23

Josh and I had gone for that shorts festival, so we had been there in the summer. Um Indie shorts, indie shorts, but yeah, so it was it was so fun. It was so fun to see our friends and just like catch up and hang out. That part was great, and just like laugh for an entire weekend, basically. So that's what we did, but I'm trying to I feel like there's not a lot there.

SPEAKER_03 9:45

We had Valentine's Day, that passed. We had Valentine's Day, which that's when we saw you at the game. That was a Valentine's Day basketball game.

SPEAKER_05 9:52

Yeah, yes. Oh, and we watched all the before midnight, before sunset, before sunlight.

SPEAKER_03 10:00

Because you've seen those. I haven't seen the third installment.

SPEAKER_05 10:03

Okay. Well, the third one.

SPEAKER_03 10:05

Is the third installment they have kids and they're divorced or something?

SPEAKER_05 10:07

No, the third installment is they're together. They've both left their previous partners.

SPEAKER_03 10:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 10:13

They're together, and what they're kind of navigating is he has a son in the US who he doesn't get to see enough. Okay. And they're living together in Paris, and they have twin girls that that that were like an accident, kind of a surprise.

SPEAKER_03 10:28

So wait, he has a his son is from the his previous marriage? Okay.

SPEAKER_05 10:32

The woman he was with in before sunset. Right. He was like unhappy. Right. So he left her, and he's really struggling with like not being close to the sun and feeling a lot of like angst about that. And then his partner's kind of freaking out that he's having that angst about that. And she says to him, like, I'm now moving to Chicago. So the wife lives in Chicago. So she's very like, we have a life here. And and they're navigating like stuff like that. You know, like they've both like left their partners, their ex-partners. Well, her ex-partner wasn't a husband. His ex-partner hates him, and the son is like right in the middle. The son at the beginning, I'll I'll spoil it just a little bit, tells him not to come for his like violin recital. He's like, just come on a nothing weekend. He's like, it will be such a thing. Mom will make it such a thing. So there's like all this tension there. It's kind of like them navigating, being years into their relationship, having made big choices to be together and still having like a good amount of like, you know, just everyday conflict. And some of it gets kind of bigger. And what I will say, we loved about the third one that I'd kind of forgotten about. They really like stumble in and out of conflict in like such a realistic way, like you do as a couple, where you're just like, yeah, you're just having a regular conversation, maybe even like a pleasant one, and just someone says something, and then it can't be.

SPEAKER_00 12:00

And you're kind of like, Well, what do you mean by that? Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_05 12:02

You know, and it felt very like it was funny to watch it on Valentine's Day because it was like them fighting for a lot of it, but it honestly felt like one major theme in it is like, you know, because they both like left other relationships to be together. I think there's like this sense that they're like romantics, right? Like, I feel like Sex in the City covered this a lot where it's like, I want real love, I want love that's like earth-shattering and life-changing and so deeply like romantic and passionate. And he kind of or they kind of talk about like this is it. Like, if you think that's like all like sex and joy and romance and meals that are good, and this, it's like that's not it. If you want real love, right, it's this fucking mess. Right. And I did really like that because I that felt very real to me. Like that's how relationships really are. That's how it really is. And when you really passionately love someone, you're also gonna like sometimes passionately want to kill them.

SPEAKER_02 13:09

Like for sure.

SPEAKER_05 13:11

Honestly, like the opposite kind of relationship is probably a little less contentious, you know, where it's maybe a little more of convenience or of stability, or which is a totally valid type of relationship, too, I would argue. But you know, like if you really want to feel that depth of love, like there's a lot of mess that comes with it.

SPEAKER_03 13:32

Definitely, and you know, uh Josh said this, like they not just mess, but like mundane, squabbling, boring, like day in, day out stuff that just kind of comes with having a partner, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 13:45

And like big sacrifices to ideas of your own life and like where you want her to go, like where you want to live sometimes, depending on like what comes up. Yeah, because like they made this choice to live in Paris, you know, and it's like you don't really know what seven to ten years away from your son, like an ocean between you and your child is gonna feel like. I mean, I don't even have kids, and I'm like already like that. It's hard to be like five hours from my nieces, like your own child. It would be so hard, but it but it would be like a choice you might have to make. So hard. And they also navigate a little in it, like some questions about like infidelity, which I also like thought, you know. I wonder if in relationships where like you were unfaithful and that's kind of how you got together.

Before Trilogy, Realistic Love, And Conflict

SPEAKER_03 14:38

Well, spoiler alert, didn't I I thought they left the second movie with a little bit of a like unclear ending of like he is gonna cheat on his wife with her.

SPEAKER_05 14:48

Yeah, like he's gonna stay at the apartment.

SPEAKER_03 14:50

Right, he's gonna miss his flight or whatever. Yeah, that's also interesting to think about if they're exploring that because he might have been.

SPEAKER_05 14:57

Well, exactly. And I almost wonder, like, for me, with like friends or clients or whatever, like if the couple has maybe like been unfaithful, like kind of been in those waters, especially if they got together in that way. I don't know. There might have to be a little more room for that kind of stuff, if that's kind of the way you found each other. I don't know. I think that's an interesting idea, and it depends on what you come to agree upon as a couple, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:29

I don't know how I feel about either one of them as actors, actresses, yeah, people. It's Ethan Hawk and what's her name? Julie Julie Delpy. Julie Delpy. I don't know how I feel about either of them.

SPEAKER_05 15:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:40

How do you feel about them?

SPEAKER_05 15:41

Well, I uh I mean I find them both so incredibly talented and entertaining. I think she is so funny, everything she says, and they're so mean to each other at parts. They both at different points like talk about how the other one like ate salad like a pig, which is like so incredible. That's what it is. Um but yeah, I don't think you're supposed to feel like either is good, you know. Yeah, and I mean I mean Ethan Hawke too, like I think his personal life has been somewhat messy with Uma Thurman and their kids. And yeah, I think there's definitely been some. I don't know about her, but yeah, like I really liked her character, and I liked him too. I think I like them both, but they're definitely like Josh was kind of saying, like, oh, I don't love that they like maybe both cheated on each other, which you don't know for sure.

SPEAKER_03 16:35

But do you think they have a lot of chemistry on screen?

SPEAKER_05 16:38

That is a great question. I definitely think in the first movie they maybe have the most. What do you think?

SPEAKER_03 16:47

I feel like watching the first or the the first two because I didn't see the third, but I I I think I remember, no, this is years ago, but I think I remember it being like they don't really like, and maybe that's what it is, it's kind of feeling it out, right? But it's like they don't they're not really like dancing with each other right now, you know, and maybe that's just the way it is because it's not like it's more realistic that way, but I don't know. Yeah, what do you think?

SPEAKER_01 17:07

Hmm, yeah, I think it's pretty realistic. I think they have chemistry in a realistic way, and we're not used to seeing that on camera. Yeah, like there's a lot of awkwardness, but to me that makes it all more romantic. Like their first kiss.

SPEAKER_05 17:21

Yeah. How is it super unromantic? He wants to kiss her and then maybe like says something, and it's like awkward, and then later she tells him, like, he she was like describing him to him, and she's like, This cute American guy I met, and he kind of kisses like an adolescent. Like, yeah, yeah, there was a definitely more of that awkwardness, yeah. And they like hug after and they kiss and then they hug, which to me that was a little bit of like a European thing. Because I do feel like Europeans are a little more like like kissing and like like that romantic, like affectionate gestures are so different in European culture. In all cultures, they're different, but it's like I almost think Europeans are way more like casual about like sex and kissing and like being lovey dovey in public. So they'll kiss and then like hug after a kiss, where it's like that's not really something. It's like if you're kissing, you're kind of kissing in America, and then you're moving on.

SPEAKER_01 18:21

When I saw that, I was like, is that a botched kiss? Like, is this movie now gonna be about a botched kiss? Yeah. And then and then I realized, oh, actually, maybe that's pretty realistic. And I just don't see that in cinema a lot.

SPEAKER_05 18:34

Or it's like, remember in like cinema, like in Audrey Hepburn movies or like those old movies, they would like hold their faces together and be like, oh, like that was like the romantic moment. They would just like press their cheeks really hard together, which is like, has anyone ever really done that? I mean, if I did that to you, it'd be like a joke. It's like teletubbbies.

unknown 18:56

Squeeze.

SPEAKER_05 18:57

Yeah, it's like so interesting. But yeah, maybe they went for a more realistic angle. Like almost if we saw, if you saw like one of your friends meeting their partner, yeah, like what the scene of the date would really look like might be a little cringe. A little like, do they even have chemistry?

SPEAKER_03 19:14

Yeah. I mean, I love the idea of just characters following characters throughout their lifespan. I mean, I love that idea. And yeah, or revisiting characters after a certain amount of time passes, and you don't know exactly what's happened, and so there's just like chunks of time missing, and you have to kind of like just go along with it. I really do like that as a premise, whether it be in a book or film.

SPEAKER_05 19:38

Yeah, and you have to like in your mind kind of close the gap a little bit. And then they kind of do close some of it, but it's like it's so interesting.

SPEAKER_03 19:47

I just wrote a book that was very much like that, where it was like the next chapter, you're already behind and kind of like catching up on like because you don't know how much time has passed, but you just know time has passed. And so but they but the author did in a really effective way where you weren't like totally out in the weeds, but this is heart alone. No, it wasn't. It was well, I mean that yeah, also that does that a little bit.

SPEAKER_05 20:08

It's this book called Flesh, which one Oh oh my god, yes, I've been hearing such good things about that book. Yeah, are you loving it?

SPEAKER_03 20:15

I'm I finished it, so I already returned it to the library.

SPEAKER_05 20:18

Did you love it? How did you get it from the library?

SPEAKER_03 20:20

I really like I know I was it was one of those books where it was like, God, I'm never gonna get this book, and then somehow it popped up. I think they got so many copies of it because it's been so popular. Yeah, so I think they're kind of going through the the people who are waiting, and probably it shows that people are just reading it really quickly.

SPEAKER_05 20:37

But I know people are saying it's so good.

SPEAKER_03 20:40

It is, it's not a beach read by any means. There's dark, it's dark, there's um highly uncomfortable, questionable things, especially at the beginning of the book, in regards to his age and sexual encounters, yeah. One specific one that he regularly has with an older woman. And um I'm trying not to use judgment or give too much away, but it kind of like follows his life. You know, you start, he's a teenager, and it kind of follows him through his life and his relationships, but also just this kind of like hollowness almost that he has and detachment. And I think if I had to guess, it's because of a lot of the early experiences that he had, yeah, which I do deem traumatic sexual experiences, but also you don't get any of the detail. And this is the thing where it's kind of just jumps forward, it kind of jumps forward to him like exiting the military, and so it's kind of like you don't get any detail of what happened, right? But you know stuff happened, and so you know, I think on a lot of levels, this disconnection from himself, but also the relationships he has.

SPEAKER_05 21:46

And you get as a reader get disconnected a bit, yeah, it can feel very hollow.

SPEAKER_03 21:50

And I think there was one review I read where it was like this book, this main character says the word okay like 300 times. I don't know how many times.

SPEAKER_04 22:00

My God, he's me.

SPEAKER_03 22:01

But a lot of but a lot of the questions he gets is like, yeah, okay. Like, yeah. And I think some readers find that frustrating.

SPEAKER_05 22:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:09

Because there's not more dialogue.

SPEAKER_05 22:11

Right.

SPEAKER_03 22:11

But I think that's representative. It kind of emphasized his that's how detached he is a little bit. Like his hi he just will say, like, okay, or fine. And it's just like one sentence, move on to the next chunk of dialogue or something.

SPEAKER_05 22:26

Kind of like someone will say a lot to him and he'll say, okay.

SPEAKER_03 22:29

Exactly. Or want deeper information, more information from him. Wow. And he'll be like, okay.

SPEAKER_05 22:35

Like a Don Draper type.

SPEAKER_03 22:36

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 22:38

Who also is quite detached.

SPEAKER_03 22:39

So I I mean I would recommend reading it. It's definitely not your Beach Read. You gotta read it.

SPEAKER_05 22:43

Well, I'm reading Beach Read's galore. Let me tell you, they're overwritten.

SPEAKER_03 22:48

Well, if you want something that's used the other way, I would read this book. Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_05 22:53

But anyway, it's it's God, I really want to read it now. I we gotta read it, Joe.

SPEAKER_03 22:57

I should have just kept it and brought it over and just had you return it whenever you're done with it. But I couldn't renew it because other people wanted it, so I had the three weeks to read it, but I read it in like 10 days.

SPEAKER_05 23:09

Whoa, I I am so gonna read it.

SPEAKER_03 23:11

And it doesn't take that much time to read it because the dialogue is so choppy like that. Like you have whole pages of just kind of like one like one to two word sentences, and then the next one's like kind of you know, five words, and then you know it's just yeah, it's interesting.

SPEAKER_05 23:25

Oh my god, I I gotta read it. Well, actually, it's like the book I'm reading right now. I mean, talk about overwritten. It's one of these romantic books, whatever. I'm I'm reading it like falling asleep on the audiobook. It's like I was saying to Josh, I was like, this woman's trying to describe someone being angry. It's like there's only so much you really need to say. Yeah. You know, she's like the fury rippled off of him in blue currents, and you're like, shut the fuck up.

SPEAKER_03 23:49

Right, just say he's angry.

SPEAKER_05 23:51

Say it.

SPEAKER_03 23:51

Yeah. If you're looking for that, read Flesh then.

SPEAKER_05 23:54

Oh my god, I will be loving that.

SPEAKER_03 23:56

But it's interesting because it's succinct and you don't get a lot of information, so it's like both almost. Wow.

SPEAKER_05 24:03

That is so interesting, I think, as a therapist to read because like there are so many of those experiences you have in the therapy.

SPEAKER_03 24:10

And and in the book, there is a very small mention of him going, and you're kind of sitting observing him having this like Zoom call with a therapist.

SPEAKER_06 24:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:22

And it's just interesting because you don't really nothing is revealed really there either. So it's also a window into probably how he's showing up everywhere everywhere in his life. Like there's just no, and I I wouldn't say it's not that the character is not insightful. I just think it's a detach it's more of a detachment of uh as a product of maybe his experiences.

SPEAKER_05 24:44

Well, yeah, sometimes I wonder if like sometimes with trauma, it's like detaching from insight is survival. It's like engaging with the insight could be so hard.

SPEAKER_03 24:52

Right. Right anyway. I don't know why I brought that. Oh, the time leaping thing.

SPEAKER_05 24:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:59

There's a movie out right now called Goat, which my yeah, my kids saw. I didn't see it. I was gonna go with Shane to a birthday party to see it, but he didn't want me to stay, which was fine.

SPEAKER_04 25:09

It's his new thing.

SPEAKER_03 25:10

This is a new thing. He's like, I don't need you. Uh, but they rented out the movie theater for this movie. So, you know, parents and siblings were invited. He was like, I'm gonna go out by myself. I was like, perfect.

SPEAKER_04 25:21

Um I'm going slow.

SPEAKER_03 25:23

So this was the second time he saw it, but yeah, it's like a Steph Curry uh movie where he's like the main character and he's literally a goat. And uh Steph Curry, like the animated goat. He's like it's like an well, it's not him, and we are it's like a goat, and he's the voice of it.

SPEAKER_05 25:37

And it's it's a basketball.

SPEAKER_03 25:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 25:40

Wow. And the goat learns basketball.

SPEAKER_03 25:43

I think so, yeah. It becomes like the goat.

SPEAKER_05 25:46

Of course, I'm thinking goat. It's like some like indie thriller or something.

SPEAKER_03 25:50

No, and I think it's better than dogman for those of you who have listened to our previous episodes. So maybe go see goat.

Detachment, Trauma In Fiction, And Media

SPEAKER_05 25:56

Yeah, a lot of media out there, a lot of good stuff. Yeah, there is a lot of good stuff out there. I actually just I want to see this movie called Pillion that actually in some ways seems like it's similar maybe to like flesh, some themes.

SPEAKER_03 26:07

I heard of that movie.

SPEAKER_05 26:08

I heard actually a pretty spoiler-heavy review. Skarsgarden? Skard, yeah. Alexander Skarsgard.

SPEAKER_03 26:14

Is he the one who was in the Northman, the Viking movie?

SPEAKER_05 26:17

Was he in that? I never saw that. He's the one who's like kind of in everything.

SPEAKER_03 26:21

I think the guy who directed that directed uh the lighthouse. Don't you like that movie? I liked The Lighthouse.

SPEAKER_02 26:27

What was the director of that? What's his name?

SPEAKER_01 26:28

Oh, I don't remember. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_05 26:30

He might have directed Pillion.

SPEAKER_02 26:32

We got we gotta see it. I'm pretty sure he directed the Northmen.

SPEAKER_05 26:36

Definitely like detachment and emptiness is like in it.

SPEAKER_03 26:39

Is that like where everybody's headed because of where the world is headed?

SPEAKER_05 26:42

Top and well, I bet a lot of people are really relating to that. Because the thing when you engage with like what's going on in the landscape, it's too much. It is simply too much to even Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:56

So why not just attach?

SPEAKER_05 26:58

Well, because I find myself like, I don't know if you find this, but like when people actually like even just like give words to like what's going on, like even something as simple as like, Can you believe Trump? It's like I get annoyed at the person saying that because it's like what yeah, right, this is it, this is the hellscape, right? And it's like it's not fair to get mad at them, but you're like, it feels so pointless to actually say it or engage with it. So like I find myself so detached.

SPEAKER_03 27:26

I yeah, that on top of the AI stuff, I can't really Oh my god. For some reason that just like haunts me, and I just don't even want to like know about it.

SPEAKER_05 27:36

I don't even want to know about it.

SPEAKER_02 27:38

I don't even want to know. Totally. Like, where are we going? Yeah, I don't want to know.

SPEAKER_05 27:43

But you know what's so funny about that? I I had like a warm feeling when I was thinking about like AI therapists, and I'm like, obviously those will exist, but it's like the question of like whether they'll replace us is like the real question for one of my questions. But it's like I was kind of like stuck with a certain case, and like something I used to do that I hadn't done in a long time when I get stuck with something is I'll like write on like a separate sheet of paper, like from the note of the session. I'll write down like try to like name and and write a little bit about like my own counter transference in an encounter, and then look at the client, what I see and sense as the client's like transference onto me. And I really try to like notice that and like be mindful of that and like step out of or take care of like any baggage I may have there, or step out in the in the relationship with them of those things. And I swear I did that with a bunch of clients and it really opened things up. And I'm like, is an AI doing something like that?

SPEAKER_03 28:49

Well, I mean, an AI wouldn't know your transference or counters.

SPEAKER_05 28:52

Well, that was the second thought I had then. It's like they won't have any transference, so will they be better for that reason? Or I think the transference is really useful.

SPEAKER_03 29:00

Right.

SPEAKER_05 29:01

I mean, it lets the client see what is that that that uh, you know, the quote from that sub stacker I told you about, who's a therapist? This like Otto Kernberg quote that said, psychotherapy starts where common sense ends. Like what's not being said is a huge part of the therapeutic intervention. Like you as a therapist noticing that, noticing your own stuff, noticing what does the person evoke in me? They're evoking this elsewhere in their life.

SPEAKER_03 29:28

Yeah, I mean, I don't think that stuff's available to the guy right now, so and also just observing the nonverbals and patients and in like a creative way.

SPEAKER_05 29:37

In a creative way, not to be like, I'm so great, but I think it's like my humanity and your humanity is like what breathes life into that and can be.

SPEAKER_03 29:45

Yeah, like an experience too.

SPEAKER_05 29:47

That kind of in some ways brings the gap to our topic. Did you have anything else you wanted to?

SPEAKER_03 29:51

I just want our producer to look some stuff up for us.

SPEAKER_01 29:54

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, Robert Eggers. That's who it is. Oh he did Nosferatu, saw that The Witch, which is basically the Witch, is the way it's written. Rich and the Lighthouse. Did he do The Northmen?

SPEAKER_05 30:09

It's not Dave Eggers.

SPEAKER_01 30:11

Dave Eggers wrote Robert Eggers. Dave Eggers wrote that book. He didn't do The Northmen, a heartbreaking. He did do the Northmen of a staggering genius.

SPEAKER_03 30:20

He wrote uh that Zaytun, that book about New Orleans, I think, and the Hurricane Katrina. I think that's who Dave Eggers is.

SPEAKER_05 30:30

That's who Dave Eggers is. Okay, never mind, different guy.

SPEAKER_01 30:32

But here's what I asked Google AI, will AI therapists replace human therapists? You want to know what I do want to know the answer.

SPEAKER_05 30:41

Yeah, what does AI say?

SPEAKER_01 30:42

It said, yeah, probably.

SPEAKER_05 30:44

Really?

SPEAKER_01 30:45

No, it said AI therapists are unlikely to fully replace human therapists due to their inability to provide genuine empathy, emotional connection, and nuanced understanding of complex human experiences. Yet.

SPEAKER_04 31:01

Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:02

I haven't seen Evil Dead 2. Yeah. Yes. So Robert Eggers did direct the Northmen.

SPEAKER_05 31:08

It was weird, right?

SPEAKER_03 31:10

Yeah, it was definitely weird. I remember reading one review of it where, and I think when I read it, I was like, Yeah, that was kind of my experience of it too. Where the person said, if you want to see the best representation of and probably most realistic representation of like Viking culture violence, things that were happening, yeah, they probably don't need to make another movie. Just see this movie. Don't go searching other Viking stuff. Like, this is probably it.

SPEAKER_05 31:39

Wow. So I would like that guy to make a movie about like Boston culture so we can be done.

SPEAKER_03 31:43

So we can just exactly. If you want somebody to really like hit it out of the park with it, um this guy. I don't know if it was an enjoyable experience watching it, which not all movies have to be enjoyable. Right. I think it was very interesting and it was extremely intense. Right. Very violent.

SPEAKER_05 31:59

Very violent. It was funny and violent. It was funny.

SPEAKER_03 32:02

Actually, Ethan Hawks in that. Oh, it comes full circle. Wow. He is the Skarsgard's dad. Oh. Who is like the king at the beginning of the movie?

SPEAKER_05 32:13

He's Alexander Skarsgard's dad.

SPEAKER_03 32:15

In the movie, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 32:16

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 32:17

And so he is a boy. He's I think he's probably like maybe 11, 10, or 11 years old when the movie starts.

SPEAKER_05 32:24

Yeah. And Ethan Hawk's the king, and then you know, it's one of those stories where he's really still working, Ethan Hawk.

SPEAKER_03 32:31

Ethan Hawk is out there with.

SPEAKER_05 32:32

He's nominated for an Oscar this year.

SPEAKER_03 32:33

I know. I mean, and he's in a TV show, too. Oh. I'm pretty sure. Or like a series.

SPEAKER_05 32:40

Sounds familiar.

SPEAKER_03 32:41

Yeah. Wow. I feel like he is in way more stuff than he was like maybe 10 years ago. Totally. And he's an author. He writes books too.

SPEAKER_05 32:50

Does he?

SPEAKER_03 32:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 32:52

Shout out to him.

SPEAKER_03 32:53

Shout out. Ethan Hawke. Yeah. It's been a long time. You're welcome on the pod. What was that movie that everybody likes? Reality bites. Yeah, reality bites. All the girls loved him.

SPEAKER_05 33:04

He really is such a hunky hunk in that. A hunky? Or like a bad boy, I guess. Black t-shirt. Yeah, black t-shirt. He's like mean to everyone he does.

SPEAKER_03 33:16

Double.

unknown 33:16

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:18

What a dream boat.

SPEAKER_05 33:19

What a dream boat. Isn't it funny when you're young, you like as a as a heterosexual girl, you'd want someone who's just like straight up meaning? I could write a lot of like theses on that.

SPEAKER_02 33:33

That's great. Somebody just completely disrespects me.

SPEAKER_05 33:36

Yeah, it doesn't like like me at all.

AI Anxiety And Therapy Futures

SPEAKER_03 33:39

Just terribly on a daily basis. It just sounds so hunky. That's so interesting. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 33:45

Okay, so our topic today is self-disclosure.

SPEAKER_03 33:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 33:52

So yeah, let's, I mean, let's stay for a second with just the term. What does it mean?

SPEAKER_03 33:58

The therapy term.

SPEAKER_05 33:59

The therapy term. We could we could broaden it at some point if we want to in this discussion. But yeah, what is self-disclosure and therapy?

SPEAKER_03 34:06

Yeah. Well, it's revealing uh or disclosing in the therapy session personal information about yourself. Yeah. Which, if we look at the history of psychotherapy, probably pretty taboo to start with. That we were supposed to be blank slates, more rigid, yeah, not really have reactions, certainly not share personal information with the people that we're working with. And that's come a long way, I think.

SPEAKER_05 34:33

Yeah, definitely. Well, you know what's funny? Like, as we say this, like I'm almost finding myself like I'm almost I feel defensive of both sides.

SPEAKER_03 34:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 34:42

You know, because like Freud gets credited with the blank slate thing. And like the purpose of that, well, actually, okay, there's like the like conceptual purpose, but when I read it a bit one time into the history of it, there was like, I I didn't know this, but they're like early on in psychotherapy's history, like other therapists that Freud trained, like ended up like having sex with their clients and like having like deeply didn't he?

SPEAKER_03 35:09

Didn't Freud did he?

SPEAKER_05 35:11

I I think that might have been young. Oh did Freud?

SPEAKER_03 35:13

I don't know. Maybe a little bit.

SPEAKER_05 35:16

I mean, he might have, but I think part of his like making it really strict was to combat these extremely enmeshed, I see, yeah, inappropriate, like, you know, power dynamics and relationships. And because they were like mostly men treating women, and it was like all messed up. But like, I almost feel like I love thinking about like the concept of the blank slate, the purpose of limiting your own disclosure, and then also like mindfully breaking that rule when necessary, which I'm sure you do as well. But yeah, like I I guess I think of like the purpose of like really limiting it or not disclosing, yeah. Being like partially like not making the space about you and your stuff. Cause in any relational dynamic, both people's like material comes up. Yeah. And if they're there, the one seeking treatment, it's they're the customer, even you want to like give them that space. Another piece being letting the client project onto you what comes up for them in other relationships. So your stuff can like muddy the waters of that. And what you want to see as a therapist is what comes up for this person in the world.

unknown 36:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 36:30

Well, I think there's for me, there's like two different contexts. There's individual and then there's group.

SPEAKER_05 36:38

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 36:38

And so I think in group I'm more prone because it's not as intense one-to-one with a person on a regular basis. I'm more prone to disclose more in the group's case.

SPEAKER_05 36:51

Yeah, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 36:52

And I have found there are certain things that I disclose about that really helps open people up and connect with people. And one of them, which I talk ad nauseum on this podcast about, is parenting.

SPEAKER_06 37:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:05

When I disclose about some of the frustrations, or I can say I've been there or done this with parenting, or these are the quote unquote failures I've had, and I've made a million of them. I feel like that does really open parents up more in the space, and and they feel more connected to me as like somebody who just like kind of gets it without them having to like explain it, which there's any number of different contexts or different things that people are in where you might disclose about and they might be like, okay, great, like you get it. And that kind of allows for that. Yeah. But I think I would be a little bit more reserved. I don't do individual work right now, but yeah, maybe a little bit more reserved. But I still think disclosure can be really useful if you use it, like you said, in a mindful way. Totally. And it makes the relationship a little bit more real because we're struggling with the stuff, this stuff too. Right. And so I always want to be as human as possible with the other human.

SPEAKER_05 38:04

You know, it's and you're right, the group space is interesting because it's not this like, you know, container of two people. Right. In a lot of ways, there's less danger. It is really nice to like show up as like a fellow human. And yeah, even talk to you know a client about how you've navigated a similar issue. Or even just saying that you have issues. You're not perfect. Exactly. Even just naming that. And really, like Marcia Lenahan, who we've, you know, this and we can credit with basically naming this podcast, was very pro-self-disclosure. And and she, you know, she herself like consumed a lot of therapy and found maybe that that like blank slate approach did not help her suicidality, her, you know, like borderline traits and patterns.

SPEAKER_00 38:59

Right.

SPEAKER_05 38:59

You know, someone being a little bit like leveling with her and being a little bit more human really helped.

SPEAKER_03 39:04

Well, and I think you have to suss it out with who you're working with because especially with attachment styles or relational things that people are working on, right? It might be more of a detriment to their treatment if you do disclose a little bit more versus totally. Because a way for them to protect themselves is then they they try to make it about us, or then they are ask us more questions about ourselves, or they want to know more information, or yeah, you know, so I think it's also like you just got to consider the individual and what that might look like for them if they hear personal information.

SPEAKER_05 39:39

And I tend to think, I don't know what you think of this, but sometimes I think the clients that ask the most, I limit it the most with.

SPEAKER_03 39:48

Yeah. I think that's a safe practice. Yeah. Because then you're bringing it also to like reassurance seeking, which we've talked about before. What's coming up for you internally that makes you want to know about me, right? Maybe that's a clinically relevant behavior that they're engaging in.

SPEAKER_05 40:06

Totally. And you know what's interesting? Like now that I that we have this podcast and I like post about our post our questions. Which is disclosure. Which is disclosure, totally.

SPEAKER_03 40:17

Because now people can have a window into us.

Defining Therapist Self-Disclosure

SPEAKER_05 40:19

Yeah, because we disclose a lot on this podcast, and like our clients can access this podcast. Right. And we both think about that in terms of like what we share. Like, would we be willing to have clients, you know, be able to access this information? But there, I I get fed all these like therapist influencers because like whatever, like the algorithm has kind of like tuned itself that way a little bit. And there's an influencer follow who I like a lot of her stuff. She's pretty young and new to the field, so it is interesting, like just how much kind of like guidance she's giving to other therapists. It's kind of interesting. She's like maybe three years into the field, which is interesting. That is interesting. Um, but one thing she said that I thought like I chewed on a little bit because I was like, in some ways I totally get it, and in other ways it's like oversimplified. But and this happens with like putting out a post. It's like it can be too simplified and too whatever. Yeah. But she was like, My advice for therapists today, like, don't be so weird, kind of like about self-disclosure. Like, don't be so weird. Like, she was like, Which is a judgment, okay, which is a judgment. Exactly. She's like, It's okay for a client to know your birthday, which I like think is true. I do.

SPEAKER_03 41:36

Like the date?

SPEAKER_05 41:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:38

Not that it matters. I don't care if somebody knows it, or like how old you are, or both.

SPEAKER_05 41:42

Oh, I think she meant like the date of your birthday.

SPEAKER_03 41:44

So like they know what day, but they don't know how old you are.

SPEAKER_05 41:47

Like, today's your birthday.

SPEAKER_03 41:48

Got it. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 41:49

Um, or like, like if they ask, or like if you know, it's okay, you know, if a client texts you that they got engaged, like you can say, congratulations. Like you don't have to say, like, interesting, like, let's talk about that more at the next session.

SPEAKER_03 42:06

Oh, I see.

SPEAKER_05 42:07

Which like I totally agree. There could be like an overly stiff, overly textbook reaction to that that would be unhelpful and and pretty unnecessary. Yeah. But I also like don't want to throw out the baby with the bathwater. Like, I do sometimes think uh in you as the clinician being mindful of, okay, so this person reached out with this. Let me just consider the variables at play.

SPEAKER_03 42:34

Right.

SPEAKER_05 42:34

And there are clients with whom, like, based on like boundaries and the way they've handled it, I might say, like, I can't wait to talk about this in session.

SPEAKER_00 42:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 42:43

I doubt I would do that. If anybody told me they got engaged, I'd probably be like, oh my God, which I've done. Yeah. And if they want to have a 20-minute exchange about it, I I probably would redirect that, but and and maybe process it later. But I saw what she was saying, like, don't be weird. But then sometimes I think therapy is weirder than a regular interaction. It's supposed to be.

SPEAKER_03 43:05

Yeah. I mean, I get you don't want to be stiff.

SPEAKER_05 43:07

Right.

SPEAKER_03 43:08

And you don't have to take a really hard line. I mean, you can if you want, but I think just the therapy lands landscape has changed. Yeah. Even since we started in the field. Like definitely. Thinking about what I was at like my internship, which was over 20 years ago, like I just don't think disclosure. I I think with social media and just the way everything has changed in the world. Yeah. I think it's skews people just know more about people. And I think therapy is similar in that way. So I understand why somebody who's new to the field would say, Don't be weird. Right. But I also you have to think about it in the person you're working with. And it's not the same for everybody. It's not saying don't be weird with everybody.

SPEAKER_05 43:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:55

Because being too loose might lead to other things. Things coming up in the therapy space that might not be the focus of the therapy. Right.

SPEAKER_05 44:05

Totally.

SPEAKER_03 44:06

So totally. And it's like it's just kind of like a platitude, which is like, uh, whatever. It's just kind of like, well, don't be weird. Well, okay.

SPEAKER_05 44:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:13

And I think that's where it's moving, but I don't.

SPEAKER_05 44:16

Yeah. It's like, do whatever isn't weird. I'm like, I actually would not give that advice. I think you have to like be weird a lot as a therapist.

SPEAKER_03 44:22

I think a lot of the things we do and point out, it's yeah, it's not a quote unquote normal relationship.

SPEAKER_05 44:28

Yeah, like Nancy McWilliams, who I'm always invoking on this podcast, she had a really nice um chapter in her book about like intakes, and like she has this like statement that she'll say where she's like, This is not a normal relationship. Like, you don't have to take care of me.

SPEAKER_03 44:44

Right.

SPEAKER_05 44:44

The conversation's all about you. That's how it's supposed to be.

SPEAKER_03 44:47

Like, and you're paying me.

SPEAKER_05 44:48

Yeah. And you can give me pretty intense feedback if you need to. Right. And you're paying me, you know, like that's kind of what the money's for. Yes. Tom Draper says, that's what the money is for.

SPEAKER_02 44:58

That's what the money's for. You would say thank you. You say it.

SPEAKER_03 45:03

God, I love that episode.

SPEAKER_02 45:04

It's so good. But yeah. Is that season four? That's season four, probably.

SPEAKER_05 45:08

It's sometime when Peggy is still there. Yeah. But she's on the way out. Anyway. And I do think, like, whether or not you tell a client when your birthday is, yeah. I think it's really worthwhile to slow down and consider why they're asking or possibly process with them why they're asking.

SPEAKER_03 45:26

Yeah. That was loud. I was like, yeah. Yeah. And I think the I'm kind of stuck on the weird thing. Like, I feel like sometimes the people who lean very heavily into self-disclosure really lean heavily into the idea, which is true, and it is based in research, that the rapport you have with someone is the best indicator of like clinical outcome. So if you have a good rapport with somebody, like, well, yes, like having good rapport, but to what end? Like, and then it becomes really weird when you have to then rein that in. Oh, it's almost so it's like, don't be weird, but in you not being weird, it's gonna turn weird. And you're gonna have to then rein it in and say, because you've modeled that this is a different type of relationship where I'm not weird and I'm cool and I can like be friend friends with you. But then it gets real weird when you're like, but no, we gotta get back to the therapy stuff and we're not friends, you know, like the Lorelite Gilmore syndrome. So then you've lost the ground where it's like, sure, a little bit here, a little bit there.

SPEAKER_05 46:32

Yeah, depending on their reaction, then we kind of gently say, Okay, well, you know, I'm noticing you want more or what is good rapport, what makes good rapport for one client is totally different than what makes it. If someone has a history of parents who are self-involved, and you as a therapist are sharing a lot about yourself, it's like that might not be good rapport.

SPEAKER_03 46:56

No, and they right, they might have people who had no boundaries ever, and they actually need somebody who holds them to boundaries. Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_05 47:05

Who says, you know what, stop skirting the issue, talk about me. I want to talk about you.

SPEAKER_03 47:09

Exactly. Or people who want to be enmashed with their therapists, or yeah, all of that stuff, right?

SPEAKER_05 47:13

Like it's almost it's funny to say, like, don't be weird. It's like, I sometimes I have my life more often thought it's weird when a therapist overshares. Yeah. Than when they're because like, shout out to Melissa, who I always mention, my therapist of many years, my like core therapist who really like changed my life in so many ways, helped me change my life, disclosed nothing. Like literally to really nothing. And I was like, oh, that's killing you. It would kill me. Yeah. I mean, I would literally say, like, you know, I hope you had a nice holiday or something. And she would just like smile. I mean, it was like nothing to me. But what I realized is like it really allowed me to be in the space to it was my space, and I was the one that was gonna be tended to. Right. And that was good rapport for me. And my therapist now, actually, pretty similarly. She she might share a little more, but yeah, like that for me, what I've needed is someone with boundaries.

SPEAKER_03 48:14

And then you also know, well, I can't escape anything in this room because that's right. Like, if I just if I get really uncomfortable, I can maybe ask about her, or and if you already know there's nowhere to hide because she's not gonna go there with me, that boundary, then it's like, yeah, I'm really here for a full 60 minutes, really like tapping into my stuff.

SPEAKER_06 48:35

Yeah.

Boundaries, Rapport, And When Sharing Helps

SPEAKER_03 48:36

Again, like I'm not anti-disclosure. I I find it very useful, and I think it is something people should explore in clinical supervision, new therapists, totally, and and hopefully clinical supervision with people who have experience and can really flush that out because a lot of heavy disclosure goes on in more addiction and substance treatment with 12-step-step and yeah. So, which that I I'm not an expert in that at all, and that you know, that's a different container and specialty. And so I'm not gonna speak whether that's effective or not, but I just think having ongoing conversations with your clinical supervisor or just in supervision in general, yeah, is important when it comes to disclosure.

SPEAKER_05 49:24

It's such an interesting, I mean, it also even brings up like how much do you disclose, like even outside of like a clinical therapeutic context, like in a new friend group. Like, like when we went and met all your friends at the basketball game.

SPEAKER_00 49:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 49:38

Like, I definitely felt myself like really liking the people and the vibe. And sometimes, like when I'm in that vibe, I'm like, I'll have this like reaction, and it's not intentional, where I'll almost be like, I won't say a lot about myself. And then I'll be like, you're not saying much, and you're like not being funny and you're not being cool. And I'm like, but I don't know them. I don't know my jokes, like, I don't know what the crowd's gonna think, and I don't so it's like I'll feel this like inner turmoil of like I can tell I'm not disclosing very much, and I'll like kind of judge myself for that because I felt like those people were like so cool and so fun, and it made me so hopeful. And Josh and I talked about this, like becoming parents and like meeting other parents, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:23

Oh, yeah, you got Brianne, Brianne just telling you every she's just turning around, telling you stuff.

SPEAKER_05 50:28

I mean, I love that. Like it was so warm and so nice. And I was like, was I like able to like be as nice back? Like I'm not as used to like a community like that. And or it's like when you start a job or even at work in an office setting, like how much do you really share? Yeah, it is an interesting question. It's like it's a really live thing, yeah, all the time, you know, like judging that, engaging that there is no one size fits all. No, it really depends. Depends on the workplace, depends on you, depends on if you like the people, if you like the people, if it's like safe.

SPEAKER_03 51:07

If you want to be around the people.

SPEAKER_05 51:09

Yeah, like we were talking about this actually over the weekend with someone at the wedding who like it was a work friend of my friend Megan's, and then they became real friends. And we were like joking about like what a dance that can be to becoming like real friends like us.

SPEAKER_06 51:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 51:23

Like she when she met Megan, she saw that she had all these like binders of like all the CPA documents at the place they worked, and there were like cat stickers all over them.

SPEAKER_03 51:34

She's like, I'm gonna be friends with her.

SPEAKER_05 51:36

And right away she was like, I like what I see, but I'm gonna play it cool. Play it cool, and like waited a bit and then eventually dip your toe in. Yeah, yeah, would like go over to her desk, or would sometimes like leave a little like sticker or like whatever. And and yeah, it was like a careful kind of like, let's get used to each other. And therapy is similar, like all relationships. Like, you have to really be intuitive, use your wise mind. Yes, what's really needed here?

SPEAKER_03 52:05

Yeah, yeah. Sometimes when we did that podcast on humor, I think humor for me is a good litmus of like, yeah, oh, okay, I got my eye on you. Like, you're yeah, you get it a little bit. Yeah, like you know, not that I'm the funniest person in the world, but but you are funny, you're very funny. It's just like if I find something and I kind of put it out there, it's like, oh, did you notice this? And then like somebody laughs about it, I'm kind of like, oh, okay, like yeah, you're a safe person. Like you kind of get it. Like, yes, totally. You always want someone who gets it. Sometimes you just get crickets and blank stares, and I'm like, okay, we'll see you guys later. That's the end of that conversation. We're not gonna talk anymore. Um, not my person, but I think humor is my entry into more disclosure with like more friends and yeah, yeah. Because it feels safer to me to just like do a humorous thing. Totally, totally.

SPEAKER_05 52:51

Well, that can be true in therapy too. It's like you want to feel like a human. Sometimes I think if I like use the F word, people will be like, oh, she's not so stiff, right? Without it having to be all about me. I can be like, Yeah, what the fuck? Or I'll just be like, you know, I'm so fucking sick of that, you know. Then sometimes, which I do in my real life.

SPEAKER_03 53:10

And that's a great way to build the rapport without having to give personal information. Right. So there's like those human moments, human moments in the therapy space don't have to always be sharing something about yourself or connecting in that way. It can right, it can just be how we are showing up or yeah, totally showing frustration over something and being like, yeah, absolutely. Like I hate that.

SPEAKER_05 53:32

Yeah, that's a totally, yeah. Or being like, oh, I love that restaurant if they mention it or something. Right. Not needing to like go overboard. Yeah. Yeah. It's like I am really pro-disclosure, but I also like I really respect the philosophy of being really mindful about it.

SPEAKER_03 53:51

I think that's a very wise take, is because I agree, I'm pro-disclosure, and I certainly have the utmost respect for people who hold more of a firm boundary with it. Yeah, it doesn't make the therapy any less ineffective. Yeah. And in a lot of contexts, it might make it more effective for certain people, like we talked about, right?

SPEAKER_05 54:11

So and it really depends. Yeah. And I get I keep coming back and I know it's like this is how TikTok works. It's like a little hot take, and that's how you make a post. But it's like the idea of like, don't be weird. It's like so much of what we do is weird. And it should be, you know, it should be like I'm about to like reflect something that's gonna be really uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_00 54:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 54:32

Or not answer a question because there's like a deeper processing that can needs to happen. Or then other times it's like I'm gonna be like, Right. Yeah. Like, did I tell you once I had a client who was like, Can I ask you a personal question? And I was sort of like, depends what it is. And I was, you know, like my stomach like turned. I was like, oh boy. And he's like, Do you have any siblings? And I was just like, Oh yeah, you know, like easy breezy. And then we moved on because he wanted to know, like, I was pissed at my brother. Yeah. Or something like that. I can't even remember exactly. I'm I don't remember at this moment who it was, but wanted to know if I could get like the uniqueness of a sibling relationship. Sure. Or like I've had clients ask if I have kids, and I'll say, like, I don't, you know, someone who's going through like postpartum hormonal changes or whatever. Right. You know, if I if I had that experience, like there might be things depending on the client, yeah, that I might like share some of that or relate on some of that.

SPEAKER_00 55:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 55:29

But then there might be other cases where, like, even if I had that experience, we'd have to talk more about like, why do you need to know that about me?

SPEAKER_00 55:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 55:36

Or like, let's let's be curious, like in an interested way. Yeah. Like that was your first reaction instead of just telling me your experience and and letting that take up all the space.

SPEAKER_03 55:48

I just had another thought about the weird comment. Now, you and I, we've seen a lot of new clinicians come into the space.

SPEAKER_06 55:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 55:57

Yeah. Is there like a lens where maybe this person was kind of saying, like, without disclosing, just like be a human? Because you know how sometimes oh absolutely there are so many clinicians that start that it's almost as if they've gotten more awkward after their schooling.

SPEAKER_05 56:14

Totally.

SPEAKER_03 56:15

And they almost forget how to be a human.

SPEAKER_05 56:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 56:18

I know there's been many times where you and I have discussed when we've worked together, where it's like, even entering a room, like some people are just really weird and awkward. And it's like stilted. So I wonder too if there's just a level of it where it's like, you're overthinking this. Yeah, like you're overcomplicating it. Like when you come into a room, you say, Hey, how are you? You're like, hello, or yeah, and I feel like sometimes, and I still see it with new clinicians where it's almost so rigid.

SPEAKER_05 56:47

Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 56:48

And that probably comes from genuine fear, they're new, they don't know. But it's almost like they've forgotten how to be just a person, a person.

SPEAKER_05 56:57

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 56:58

So now I'm thinking a little bit more about the weird thing where I think that's what she was getting. Yeah, if we don't take it to a disclosure place, I agree. Like, you're still a human being. So like pleasantry, are you okay?

SPEAKER_04 57:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 57:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 57:15

Did you need a cigarette?

SPEAKER_01 57:16

Um, I'm just being really weird.

SPEAKER_03 57:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 57:18

What does the cough mean? But it's like just be a human. Be a human, totally.

SPEAKER_03 57:22

And sometimes when we've interviewed before, like people.

SPEAKER_05 57:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 57:27

I think you and I both agree. I would rather somebody be less, especially if they're new to the field, less like knowledgeable about skills and and therapies, and just like a human who knows how to like navigate an interview, right? And like dress themselves versus somebody who's like so textbook, yeah, but has no people skills. Well, yeah, you're gonna be dealing with humans. This is a human business, you know.

SPEAKER_05 57:51

Oh my god, I remember my first or this is my second supervisor. Shout out to Rick taught me so much. But he he told me at the end of my internship, he was like, Do you want to know what made me pick you as a as a trainee? Yeah, I want to know and I was like, Yeah, and then I was also like nervous because he really would give me like pretty fearless feedback, yeah. But he was like, You're a human, exactly. He was like, I could sense like right when I met you, you had this like innate sense of like compassion, understanding, sociability. Yeah, he's like, it's all the stuff you really can't teach, yeah. And then he's like, There were things you need to be taught big time, but like the things like the the being a person in the space you could do. Yeah, and I was like, Oh, I appreciate that. Like it's like the soft skills, yes, the like sense of just like beingness, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 58:49

Like sitting with someone because the when you have like an interview or somebody you're supervising, it's like you're getting the energy when they sit with you that other people are getting. Yeah, it's kind of like okay, like we got a lot to work on here. Like, yeah, we gotta work on some of these softer like skills because yeah, this already feels really uncomfortable in therapy sometimes.

SPEAKER_05 59:10

No matter what, no matter how much knowledge you have, if the person like is exactly out by you, yeah, or like skeeved out by you or like uncomfortable. So don't be weird, don't be weird, but you know what? Like, also I'm like just I do, I don't know why I get so like defensive of like the old school stuff, but to me, sometimes I'm like the goal of someone three years into the field, sure, indicting Freud is a little like the amount of like research and retesting and like reformulating of his own theories all the way until he died. I mean, he's the reason this entire field exists. I'm a little like okay, we can all like be curious about these things, but to be like self-disclosure, no problem. I'm just like, you are missing so much valuable stuff in there, yeah. And but I do get it. Be like, you know, being human is huge and yeah, being really thoughtful.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:06

Be thoughtful about it.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:08

And it it's there's never gonna be a like in this situation, do it, in this situation don't. It's like it's really a felt sense from the wise mind.

Social Media Takes And “Don’t Be Weird”

SPEAKER_03 1:00:15

Yeah, no. I mean, I think if there is a response to the the weird, whatever it was, clip, I think your question is very like, yeah, like therapy is weird.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:26

What yeah, it's certainly weirder than to go on a lunch with your friend.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:29

Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:29

And there are therapists where when you're with them, you feel like you're at lunch with your friend, and that can be like a problem.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:35

That can be a problem, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:36

And it can be good depending on the case. Right. I could imagine, like, if a kid had two therapist parents, I mean your kids two therapist parents, like, would they need a therapist later in life who was a little more like easy and chummy? Maybe, or maybe not. Maybe because you guys aren't like psychiatrists or like overly, you know, you're not wearing the like elbow patches all the time, like analyzing 24-7 at all.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:02

Not at all.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:03

But I could see like my kid one day being like, I want a therapist who's like kind of my friend, you know, maybe being like, My mom, oh my god, she's always analyzing me, which I don't want to be like that, but like I could see myself slipping into that. When we would a lot of times, like in our field, when we would get clients that had like therapist parents, we'd be like, Oh boy. Yeah, for sure. Even worse. For sure. Like, yeah, I'm sure like doctors when they have to treat other doctors, they're like the worst patients.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:30

Because they think they know everything.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:32

Well, I think that's probably what we saw more was people who, again, this is very general, but people who had maybe therapist parent experiences of parents who thought they knew everything and and were also made it about them a lot more of the time than making it about you know the child. Yeah. So they're so self-centered and they think my struggles are because of them and they take it so personally and they can't get outside of themselves to see that I need help, right? Right, right. That type of thing. Totally.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:04

So I know what one my last question. Yeah. I feel like it is harder to overdo it in group therapy, but do you feel like you've seen that done? Overshare? Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:16

Yeah. Yeah. I think it always crosses the line for me when people start sharing about their own mental health struggles. We all experience anxiety, sure, that, but like people sharing, you know, pretty detailed information about diagnoses or that they've gone to residential treatments, or and those are things that I'm quoting literally people that I've seen share in the space where you'd have you'd have to pull that clinician aside and you know, offer supervision to them. Cause I just I personally just never thought that that was that was a boundary that was crossed there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:50

Well, it's not your therapy space. Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:53

So I think that's the first thing that comes to mind is when the therapist starts sharing about their own mental health struggles.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:01

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, that's self-disclosure. Self-disclosure. We are gonna later talk about because Josh and I started watching the show Shrinking, which were shrinking loving. And they, you know, they make self-disclosure on that show, like kind of a punchline in some cases, which I think they do a good job of like, because it's not serious. Yeah. A good job of like what he'll bring up things going on for him with a client. It can be pretty funny.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:26

Who's the shrink? Who's the therapist of the show?

SPEAKER_05 1:03:30

The there's three. It's like a group practice, they're all therapists.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:33

So it's okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:34

It's Jason Siegel is one therapist, Jess Williams is another therapist, and then Harrison Ford is the senior therapist. I don't know if he's the practice owner. I feel like maybe he is, or maybe they're all practice owners and he's just like the oldest and wisest, and they go to him the most.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:50

Got it.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:51

They haven't really said today. There was an episode we were watching right before this while we were eating dinner. And this is nothing to do with therapy, but like they had all had like a pretty like crazy, like drunken night, and all the therapists had like were in various states of like hungover and whatever, and they were all like heads crashed at this one therapist's house, and like the daughter was like making pancakes or whatever. And I was like, I said to Josh, I was like, it's stressing me out that I don't know whether this is a Saturday or not. Like, you know, like are they about to go to work? Like it was like truly stressing me out. I feel like I need to know that these people have the bandwidth to be hung over. It was a Saturday we decided, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:35

It was never revealed that it was no revealed. It was killing me. It was never revealed.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:41

If I had to flesh in that way, I would yeah, it's like flesh.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:44

Yeah, you just gotta put it together.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:46

They're so detached, they didn't even know if it was a Saturday.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:48

They didn't even know what day it was. Yeah. What day is this?

SPEAKER_05 1:04:51

Yeah, it's like sometimes I just need to know that kind of thing. You'll never know because I need to know how to feel about it. Um, but yeah, it's funny. They do a funny job of like really, really inappropriate self-disclosure. Like, obviously, it's a comedy, so it's great. Same thing would come up in Scrubs. I think it's the people who made scrubs. Is it? You keep saying that. Maybe I made that up. They're bringing scrubs back, by the way. Totally. With this whole same cast.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:18

Yeah, why not? Those people aren't doing anything.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:20

It literally, I don't think they're doing anything.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:22

They're doing shrinking phone commercials.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:24

Shrinking, yeah. But yeah, okay, so now we'll move into our wise is how wise is it? So John came up with a great how wise is it today.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:33

Yeah, how wise is it to do icebreaker questions?

SPEAKER_05 1:05:36

Yeah. An icebreaker question being.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:40

An icebreaker question being a question that every if you're in a group of people or you're in a social situation or even a therapy situation group, uh, it's a question that everybody has to answer, go around, and it's kind of like you're breaking the ice, you're getting to know one another, you're warming people up here.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:58

Totally. You're breaking the ice. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:00

Life being the like awkwardness of the beginning of a social interaction. So this could be in a classroom setting, it could be in your family, it could be, I mean, you could do this anywhere.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:09

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:10

So how wise is it to engage in them? What do you think?

SPEAKER_05 1:06:13

Well, my knee jerk, which is not about like how wise is it, but like I don't love an icebreaker.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:20

You don't. Why don't you though? I'm curious.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:23

I mean, I kind of like inflicting them in the group therapy space because I actually do think it functions well, but I don't like to answer them. Because sometimes like I really don't, I sometimes I feel like there's a pressure to like represent my whole self in the answer, and like sometimes I'm not able to do that. And like I I get really like annoying about things that like snuff out organic socializing. Because I love to socialize, I love to just like talk about like the random things that like come across my consciousness, as I'm sure people on this podcast can tell. Yeah, people listening to this podcast can tell.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:05

You don't like forced fun.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:07

Yeah, I don't like forced fun. I'm like, I believe in us, like we can meet each other and like get to know each other like organically. Now, like, is that always true? Probably not, and probably we do need a boost sometimes, but it's like I'm a little like so.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:23

It's a lot of self-inflicted though, judgment on what you're gonna say. Because you feel like it has to really encapsulate you.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:29

Yeah. Well, yeah, it's like if if if the question is something like, What's your hot take? I'm like, oh, right now, like uh, you know, and it's like I'm sure I have a bunch of hot takes, but it's like that's not what like came across my consciousness, so like I don't have access to it.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:45

Yeah, well, I think there is a level of it though that I like that you don't prepare for it. Yeah. And I think that that is organic.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:54

So I understand the sense that it's not organic because it's a question, right? That you're kind of like throwing out there, but it is organic, people's responses because they don't know what it is unless somebody was thinking about it beforehand.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:07

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:08

So I kind of like it. You well, tell us, tell us about more about I like when people are just willing to just like say something and just kind of like do it and just kind of commit to it. Um, and I do think it it helps, you know. We talk about non-judgmental stance a lot, we did a whole episode on that. I do think it forces people to try to answer something and try not to judge themselves for their answer.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:31

It's like an experiment.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:32

Knowing that people in the group space, if you're doing it in a group, might be judging you for your answer.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:37

So I do think it is an exercise, it's a little microcosm for a lot of things, including tolerating some distress of like, there's no right answer. Yeah, I'm just gonna have to say something. It might not be because I might think later in the day something better I wish I would have said.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:55

And that always happens with music ones or even movie ones for me, where I'm like, I can't think of it right now, and I know I'm gonna think of a better one later, but I just have to go with what you're doing.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:05

Just go with what I'm thinking. Yeah. You're right.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:08

I prefer them in the therapy space than social situations. So that's the caveat.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:13

Okay, we have what if someone's at like a dinner party?

SPEAKER_03 1:09:15

I wouldn't mind that. I mean, I just like the better of the therapy space. I would still do it.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:20

Yeah, it's almost like I like reading like crime and punishment in an English class more than like on a Friday night as I'm falling asleep. Yeah. It's like it depends on the context. Well, maybe because like a dinner party, you're more likely to have like organic conversation that can go anywhere. And in the therapy spaces, like you kind of have to make more like a deliberate room for what's your take on whatever.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:42

Where when I don't like an icebreaker question, is like when I'm at like a training or something like that.

Group vs Individual: Oversharing Risks

SPEAKER_04 1:09:48

And that's where they love them.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:50

Where it's like a four-we're gonna force you all to get along with one another, and it's like, no, I'm here to just continue my education. Right. I I it's great if I organically make pleasantries with people during lunch or during the breaks or at my table, my small group, but that's where I really despise them is like the training.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:10

It's like you're being invantalized.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:12

Yeah, it's like the training of it all. Yeah. Like the the really bad representation of like a motivational speaker. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:20

You're also kind of like, I'm never gonna see these motherfuckers again. Why do I need strong tick?

SPEAKER_04 1:10:25

Like, why do I need to like have them know?

SPEAKER_03 1:10:28

Strong tick.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:30

Well, I'm laughing about this because recently I somebody had a response to an icebreaker that just I was I was just laughing so hard to myself and almost like died. It was what is your least favorite tourist attraction? Which I think is a very I think that's a great icebreaker, especially living in a city like Chicago.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:50

Least favorite is funny.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:51

Least favorite is funny. Living in Chicago is great. Yeah, because a lot of icebreakers trend like favorite. Yeah. What's your favorite this? What's your favorite food? What's the you're the best place you've ever traveled to, right? Yeah. So I do like the spin on it of a least favorite. Yeah. And also because we live in a huge city, there's so many tourist attractions that people probably don't like. Right. The being. But the person who came up with it said, Well, I'll go first because I came up with it. And they said the Great Wall of China.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:17

I mean, incredible.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:19

Which I was dying.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:21

It's like, what a searing hot take.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:23

Like Great Wall of China?

SPEAKER_03 1:11:25

I don't get it.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:26

And where do I even start on that?

SPEAKER_03 1:11:29

It's literally uh like not one of the original Seven Wonders of the World. It's like a modern one, right? And I think you can, I'm pretty sure you can see it from space.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:38

I mean, the fact that you can see it from space isn't mic draw.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:42

Which I get it if like maybe the person had the experience of like, oh, it was a hot day and I had diarrhea and there was no bathroom, and like that's why it's my least favorite because when I saw it, it was horrible.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:52

It gave me diarrhea.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:54

But when you're thinking about the Great Wall of China, that's that's your take. The least favorite, it's like Larry David. Throw down Sphinx, throw down pyramids, totally, throw down the 16 chapel.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:10

If we're talking like of all the things that could be released, the bean is in there.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:14

The fucking Roman Coliseum, like throw that in there. Like, are you kidding me? Like, these are like magnificent things.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:21

Or it's like the Liberty Bell. Who cares? Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:24

I said Navy Pier, which I don't like Navy Pier.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:28

But then did you read Devil in White City?

SPEAKER_03 1:12:30

I did.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:31

Because like the Ferris, it's the very first Ferris wheel that was ever created.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:34

Yeah, and I see it every time I drive down Lakeshore.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:36

I mean, it's kind of cool.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:37

I don't need to go on it. But it's a recreation, so I'll get it.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:41

You can't be down there with all the tourists. Yeah. I mean, well, that's the problem with all tourist attractions. The fucking tourists. It's the tourists. Nobody wants to be around them. Like, you want to go on like them. I mean, maybe if you go at like 9 a.m. on a Tuesday, but then you would see tourists because they're on vacation. They're not at the office.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:58

Yeah. I mean, I was just I was so floored by that. I was just laughing to myself so hard. That's really funny. I'm like, I and then I was like in my mind thinking, like, oh, I'm gonna be the asshole here because everybody's gonna name something really like famous that I'm gonna be like, wait, what? Like somebody's gonna be like the next person's Machu Picchu, and the other person, and I'm like, wait, what?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:19

Where is this headed?

SPEAKER_03 1:13:20

Like, these are all amazing places I want to visit. Yeah, or like somebody's gonna be like an Ann Frank museum or something.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:25

Oh, totally. Something dark.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:27

And like it was a real donor.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:29

Like, what just an addict?

SPEAKER_03 1:13:31

What are we talking about? Yeah, like least favorite tourists. Anyway, I'm going off on a tangent, but that's what made me think of the question.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:37

It really does tell you that question, that cosmic event, like definitely tells you a lot about that person. Yeah. Like more than them being like, hi, I'm so-and-so.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:51

Well, it's a projective, yeah, almost like a projective measure. It's great.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:55

It really breaks the ice. I mean, it does what it's supposed to do.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:59

And listen, people were laughing, people were making jokes, and yeah, and it was connecting, like a lot of people said Navy Pier. So I felt more like, yeah, exactly. Like Navy Pier, sure. I I totally get that. Somebody said all state fairs.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:16

Oh, yeah. I mean, do those count?

SPEAKER_03 1:14:19

As a tourist attraction? I guess, yeah. I think tourists go.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:22

I guess I was thinking of ones that are almost like permanent.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:26

But they don't know. Oh, not like yearly. Oh, okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:30

But I I just made that.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:31

I don't know. I agreed with it when the person said it. I was like, yeah, state fairs, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:34

I mean, can you a state fair compared to the Great Wall of China?

SPEAKER_03 1:14:38

That's what that's the other reason. Like when people were coming up with stuff, I was like, compared to the Great Wall, it's like crazy. Crazy.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:46

Yeah. Maybe what does it say about me that I like the ones that are like, what's your least favorite ex?

SPEAKER_03 1:14:51

What's your interesting? What do you dislike? I think I just like them though, too, because uh people are so used to the positive ones.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:58

Yeah, yeah, it's something new, something different.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:02

Right?

SPEAKER_05 1:15:02

Maybe I do like them. Maybe I'm coming around to them. But like, if someone, if I went to a dinner party with like you and Sarah, me and Josh, and let's say it was like two other couples, yeah, and someone sat down and they're like, all right, icebreaker. Yeah. I mean, I would go cross.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:16

Well, you and Sarah would be in the same boat. I don't think Sarah would like that either.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:20

Be like, get real.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:21

Like, just like that. I know that Jish would do it with me.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:24

Yeah. Yeah, he would, would you? Do the icebreaker? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:28

Do you like icebreakers? No, I they make me so anxious.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:32

Yeah. Well, actually, okay, this is not quite an icebreaker, but like Josh and I heard a story about someone we know bringing a board game to a dinner party. Oh, like at somebody's house it. No, at a restaurant.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:45

At a restaurant.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:46

I mean, so out of pocket.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:49

Not that it matters. I'm just curious. I don't actually even know. So this person was expecting at some point to clear the table and put a board game out?

unknown 1:15:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:59

Really?

SPEAKER_05 1:16:00

I mean, I almost couldn't be alive. I would bring a board game.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:03

I would bring a lot of board games to a dinner party. I wouldn't bring it to dinner.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:08

I mean, it's so upsetting.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:11

Were you did you leave?

SPEAKER_05 1:16:15

Thank God we were not there. This is that would be a moment where I know I'm like, I'm about to end a friendship. I'm about to like criticize this version. I'm about to do a tight five comedy set on how stupid this is. And someone's gonna end up in tears.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:29

I really wish I would have saved this because I wish that when you guys came to Wes's basketball game, I would have had the parents say, okay, I'm listening before they get here, can can somebody just organically like throw out their hey, like it's nice to meet you, Kelly and Josh. Like, we don't really know you, but like maybe we could just like toss around like an icebreaker.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:47

I would have I would have melted into the window.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:50

That would have been so great. That would have been a great setup.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:55

Oh my god. And instead, everyone was like organic and cool and funny and interesting.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:01

That that's what it would have killed.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:03

Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:03

You know, like just like the like what goes on at these games, and like me and Josh getting filled in about that was like enjoyable.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:10

It would have killed it for you. Yeah, it would have killed it for me. But other people might have really enjoyed knowing something random about you.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:17

Yeah. And I think, do you think icebreakers are ultimately for the socially anxious? Or like board games like that at a dinner party or at a dinner?

SPEAKER_04 1:17:29

Rest.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:30

I'm just imagining like somebody asking the wait staff. So we're can you clear some of this? Because we're ready to play parcheasy or whatever it is.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:38

Yeah. The staff would have been like, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:41

I'm sorry. This isn't a board game cafe or something. Are they for the socially anxious?

SPEAKER_05 1:17:48

I don't know. I mean, honestly, I'm just like, I've been a hater. Like, I think they are good and they function. And I need to let it go. It's like clearly like shame comes up for me to some extent in these where I'm like, I'm not gonna say a cool enough answer.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:02

See, that's what it is. You just gotta commit and just say anything.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:06

It's a self-worth move. It's a vulnerability exercise.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:09

Self-worth move.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:10

Just say what comes to mind, and you can even say that.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:13

Live in any fruit. What fruit would you live in? That was an icebreaker once. If you could live in a fruit, Josh, what fruit would you live in? Now you'd think you'd get a lot of pineapples under the sea, right? But if you could live in any fruit, you're putting a lot of pressure on yourself for that.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:28

You hollow it out.

Pop Culture Therapy: Shrinking And Ethics

SPEAKER_03 1:18:29

No follow-up here.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:31

I have no idea. I was thinking spatially that you hollow it out, I do pineapple.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:36

I was thinking watermelon just because I'm tall. And so I was like, It's big. But granted, I would have to be small, so that doesn't make any sense. They have like rolling around. But I just figured that would be kind of cool to have like a watermelon like holed out or like hollowed out.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:49

That'd be cool. Totally. I don't know what fruit would you do. What do you live in?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:52

I'll live in a tomato with all the seeds.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:57

Well it makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:58

Because most people don't know it's a fruit. That's true.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:01

You get to tell people that.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:03

Very clever.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:03

Like, how did he get a vegetable? And you'll be like, actually. And you push your glasses up your nose and you say, actually, it's a fruit.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:11

How much does a polar bear weigh? I once heard somebody say, speaking of wise mine podcast, someone said something to the effect of you're smart if you know that tomato is a fruit.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:25

Yeah. MA said this.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:27

But you're wise to know not to put it in fruit salad.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:31

Or something like that. That's that's wisdom.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:34

Yeah, it's like intelligence. Yeah. Or intelligence. Yeah. Intelligence is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Right. Wisdom is a few. Wisdom is put a few tomato in a fruit salad.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:42

In a fruit salad.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:43

That's great. What a great little what is that, aphorism?

SPEAKER_03 1:19:47

Is that MA said that?

SPEAKER_05 1:19:48

I think it was the first time.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:50

I mean, I'm sure other people have said it, but yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:52

Yeah, that's who I remember saying it.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:55

Well, if you're listening, MA, thanks for that. Yeah, shout out. Let's talk tomatoes. Yeah. I think they're wise. I I how wise is it, I think depends on the context. I think I think they're wise. If it's, you know, people that you know and you're comfortable with, sometimes you throw a random question out there. It doesn't even have to be in the format of like, let's all go around. You could just be like throwing a question out there.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:19

And I do think in a therapy space or you know, sometimes that can like get the ball rolling. But yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:20:25

And there's an art to the right one.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:28

There is an art.

SPEAKER_05 1:20:29

Like, because it can be too basic where it doesn't really do what it's supposed to do.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:32

That is one of my pet peeves with icebreakers when somebody will say something like, What's your favorite season? And it's like, well, there's only four choices. Right. It's very limiting.

SPEAKER_05 1:20:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:43

And it doesn't really serve the purpose.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:46

What's your favorite political party? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:49

It's like. Totally.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:51

It's like, come up with some something. Yeah. A little zest.

SPEAKER_05 1:20:57

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So it's wise.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:01

I think. I well, yeah, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:21:03

Oh my god, we could start the pod with an icebreaker.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:05

Let's do it.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:06

Let's do it.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:07

That's that's our newest.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:08

If we remember, we'll do it.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:10

Uh send us your icebreakers.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:12

Send us your icebreakers. Let us know.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:15

Yeah. So one time somebody got cute and was like, the icebreaker is what's your favorite icebreaker? Oh, I like that. It was a cute little take on it. But then what ended up happening is nobody could answer the one. I mean, they were all good. People were going around with their favorite icebreakers, but nobody was really answering it, sir.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:34

What's your favorite iceberger?

SPEAKER_03 1:21:35

And then answer that icebreaker. And then and then we all have to.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:39

And then it would take half of the fruit.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:43

Yeah. This was just an icebreaker.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:46

Send us your icebreakers. Live in a fruit. What fruit would it be?

SPEAKER_04 1:21:52

That's like a question one of my nieces would ask, like not realizing, like you'd suffocate.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:56

Yeah. But you'd have to hollow it out, I think. That's what I'm assuming. I don't think the laws of anything pertain to this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:02

Because like you could live in a banana peel, but you can't really live in the banana.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:06

Why not? So you know you're getting too technical with it. It's like really you're just projecting a fruit you like, probably. Yeah, it's like, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:14

Well, is it a fruit that you like, or is it you like the shape of the fruit for living? For res for a residence. For residence.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:21

You like the texture of the inside.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:23

This is a private residence inside this banana. It's a private residence. Okay, well, that is an episode of the podcast.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:30

It's in the can.

Icebreakers: Wise Or Forced Fun

SPEAKER_05 1:22:31

Yeah. Thank you so much, everyone. Um, if you want to reach me, you can find me at kkpsychotherapy.com. If you want to work with me or questions or topics for the pod or anything like that, you can reach me there. How about you, John?

SPEAKER_03 1:22:45

Uh yeah, email me any questions, but more specifically now icebreaker questions at butzbutz. Jonathan at gmail.com. I apologize for my voice. Hopefully, I'll be feeling better next week. Josh.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:57

I'd like to shout out the new album by Jill Scott. Oh, Jill Scott, I saw that. Yeah, well. Have you listened to it, John? I haven't, but I saw that. It feels like a very John-esque album. She released a new one. I I've never but I've never gotten into her. I'm a big Erica Badu fan. I feel like I I don't know. I've just never I've known she existed. This is her first album I've really given any deep play, and uh we had some fun with it in the car.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:21

Yeah, we did. It was fun.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:23

She's kind of like an RB like 90s RB, like D'Angelo Erica Badu from that era, but she's putting a little contemporary spin on it. You know, she's got Tierra Whack on there. She's got Too Short on there.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:35

Too short is a rum. Two shorts on there. Too short is a bigger one.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:38

Too short is on there. He was on two albums last week. He's on the baby keem album, too. Two shorts. He's popping in the rhythm. What's that lyric that we keep saying by him? I don't even know if we can say it on here.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:53

He's like, I get mine, and you get nothing. It was like a little over the top.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:02

I think when I was a kid, I had the album, or maybe my brother had the album, Life as Too Short. Um which I think came out maybe in like '89. Just blow the whistle on there. It was like, no.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:14

Is that him?

SPEAKER_03 1:24:15

Too short? Probably.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:18

Okay. Anyway. Blow the whistle, yeah. I gotta listen to that new album. Yeah, check it out. I think you dig it. She's from Philly, I think. Oh? She's from Philly. Yeah, for little films. Yeah. But my name is Jill Scott. You can you can find me at joshbayerfilms.com. Bayer is in the aspirin, and yes, I do still edit. I'll edit anything for you. Ask me about your icebreakers, I'll break the ice for you. Okay. Or you can break the ice for me.

SPEAKER_06 1:24:45

Oh, whatever you think.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:47

And my wife.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:50

He is married, by the way.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:51

Yeah, to Kelly.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:53

Okay, thanks everyone. Thanks, everybody. We'll catch you next time.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:56

Thanks, blanket for. Thanks, blanket fore.

SPEAKER_05 1:25:07

Wise Mine Happy Hour podcast is for entertainment purposes only, not to be treated as medical advice. If you are struggling with your mental health, please seek medical attention or counseling.