the wisdom of MATHEMATICS (feat. Sam Freedman, PhD)

Maybe you hated math as kid...maybe you absolutely LOVED it. Maybe you've decided to make a profession out of mathematics, or perhaps you avoid it like the plague. Regardless, we all have a visceral response when it comes to the word "math." And on this episode, we UNPACK THE FEAR.

- music by blanket forts -

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:05

Welcome to the Wisemind Happy Hour. I'm Kelly.

SPEAKER_06 0:08

And I'm John.

SPEAKER_02 0:09

Welcome everyone. We're back with an amazing guest. We're so excited. We're going to bring him in right away because he's sitting right here. Oh my god, I'm realizing I don't know your last name.

SPEAKER_07 0:22

Friedman.

SPEAKER_02 0:23

Oh, I was gonna write it down, but I can remember. How well we know our guests. It feels so dry. Purportedly amazing. Okay. We have our guest. He's sitting right here, Sam Friedman. Welcome to the Sam.

SPEAKER_06 0:35

I am stoked to be here. Thanks for joining us.

SPEAKER_02 0:38

Yeah, thanks for joining us.

SPEAKER_07 0:40

A reality. I saw the little clips on Instagram. I was like, what is this thing in my feed? Here we are. I love it. Here we are. Tell us about you.

SPEAKER_02 0:49

Yeah, so give us a bio. The reason we got you on the pod is Josh and I met you. What was that event? Was it a birthday? We were at basement. We went to basement, but what was it a birthday?

SPEAKER_07 1:01

It was a birthday. It was Maggie's birthday. I don't know. I don't know if it was a birthday. Weren't we just all hanging out?

SPEAKER_02 1:06

Maybe it was a hangout.

SPEAKER_07 1:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:08

Yeah. I think it was a hangout for because your sister was in town. Josh's sister and her husband were in town.

SPEAKER_07 1:14

I think that was the occasion. It was Alex and Andrew coming to visit. Yes. This is who you beloved members of the friend group.

SPEAKER_02 1:20

John? Josh's brother and sister. Or Josh Josh's brother-in-law and sister.

SPEAKER_06 1:25

I've I've met Alex for sure. She was on the pad. I was like, is this somebody else that we're talking about here? Yeah, it was Alex. I've never met her husband, I don't think. I mean, probably I don't think so. He would have been at your wedding, though. Yeah. He was.

SPEAKER_02 1:38

Walking right down that.

SPEAKER_07 1:39

Yeah, I don't think I Andrew Wallen was my freshman year roommate at Michigan.

SPEAKER_02 1:43

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_07 1:45

I have known him ever since.

SPEAKER_02 1:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:47

Great guy.

SPEAKER_02 1:48

Yeah. And I mean, to be someone's freshman roommate and stick around till are you 30?

SPEAKER_07 1:55

I am turning 30 next two months from now.

SPEAKER_02 1:57

Wow. I mean, my roommate couldn't couldn't tell you what.

SPEAKER_07 2:03

I feel very fortunate. The the end of the hall, there were four of us. It was me and Andrew in one room, and then Tywo and Scott in the other room. We're still all friends. Wow. That's Tywo and Scott live in the city. I see them like once every two weeks or so.

SPEAKER_02 2:17

Oh my god, amazing.

SPEAKER_06 2:18

Are you friends with your freshman? No, I don't even think I could tell you what they were doing when I was a senior in college.

SPEAKER_02 2:23

Like, I don't think mine went to med school.

SPEAKER_06 2:27

Mine was fine. It just was not there, wasn't much there.

SPEAKER_01 2:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 2:33

So totally. But I liked mine. I was still really good friends with guys that lived on my floor. Yeah. Still friends with them, but not my roommate. That just didn't work out.

SPEAKER_05 2:42

Well, that's cool.

SPEAKER_07 2:42

It was very, I mean, we had a very active haul, but I wonder if what did it was we were stuck at a at the end of a corner. It was like an L. So we were stuck over here. Then there were a bunch of sophomores, and then there was like the rest of the gang over here.

SPEAKER_00 2:55

Oh.

SPEAKER_07 2:55

I I think we like that little satellite dynamic. They might totally disagree, but that's what I wonder if that was what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_02 3:01

I mean, I think that has a huge impact.

SPEAKER_07 3:03

Geography. Like we were just a little, this had a little end of it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:07

Totally. Wow. Okay. So we met you, and it was love at first sight for both me and Josh. Josh actually, you know, okay, I'll tell a story that I don't think you know. So there were, I didn't know you. I didn't know your background. I didn't know you had a fiance. Okay. And I'm there with my husband who's standing next to me, but it's a loud play, so he can't hear. And Alex is there, and I see you chatting with Sydney. And I turn to Alex, Josh's sister, and I go, Oh my god, is there like a little love connection going on? And Alex goes, Oh no, Sam has a fiance. And Josh didn't hear any of this. Like he didn't hear what Alex and I were talking about. He just heard that we were talking about you. And Josh goes, Wait, are you talking about Sam? Then Josh Deadpan goes, actually, I like Sam. Yeah, literally, Alex and I went cross-eyed. We were like, What are you talking about? We're like, you like him as a friend.

SPEAKER_07 4:02

The love triangle broadens to a love square.

SPEAKER_02 4:05

I mean, it was incredible. Like, I could have cried laughing. I was like, okay, great. But Josh and I both thought you were so great. We're like, he's gotta be on the pod. He lives in Chicago. He's an interesting life. So that's why you're here. Because you're not a therapist.

SPEAKER_07 4:19

I am not a therapist.

SPEAKER_02 4:20

Which is okay. We can I am a doctor. Yeah, we can see that.

SPEAKER_07 4:23

But I'm a medical doctor.

SPEAKER_02 4:24

You are. You have your PhD.

SPEAKER_07 4:26

I do.

SPEAKER_02 4:27

In math?

SPEAKER_07 4:28

In math.

SPEAKER_02 4:29

Okay, applied math regularly.

SPEAKER_07 4:31

Pure theoretical math.

SPEAKER_02 4:33

Theoretical math. Okay, so tell us about that. Was that like really hard to get?

SPEAKER_07 4:40

Well, my advisor likes to ground breaking. Yeah. My my advisor likes to joke that, I mean, at the end of the day, getting a PhD is easy, but getting a job with a PhD is much harder.

SPEAKER_02 4:55

Okay. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_07 4:56

That makes sense. I mean, in a sense, like if you just work really hard and you every time you get knocked back down, you get back up, and you also decide to singularly focus your life on one very niche topic for six years. Uh let's actually say ten years, then then you can probably get a PhD.

SPEAKER_02 5:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 5:19

I'm doing my thing. I have a job. I mean, I work at a university.

SPEAKER_02 5:22

Right.

SPEAKER_07 5:22

And you're at UFC. Uh, yes, I am. Wow. My second year there is a postdoc.

SPEAKER_02 5:27

Okay. I'm realizing. Congrats. That's so impressive.

SPEAKER_07 5:31

It's it's it's great there. I really love it.

SPEAKER_02 5:33

You do?

SPEAKER_07 5:34

Yeah. It's a really cool place. I I get to meet like the most amazing people and just learn. Like every day I just learn so much. And just even just like walking to get coffee with people, it's just like amazing that what they know.

SPEAKER_02 5:44

That's so cool. Oh, I just had like a pang of jealousy hearing that. That is really cool.

SPEAKER_06 5:50

Like being in higher education.

SPEAKER_02 5:51

Yeah, like I have so many fantasies of Josh and I like living in a college, like a liberal arts college town. Not that you have you should see it as a small liberal arts college because it's not. Is it even like liberal? No.

SPEAKER_07 6:07

Is it even a college? I I did my PhD at Brown. It's markedly different. Oh well, there you go. Brown is Brown is warm and fuzzy.

SPEAKER_01 6:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 6:16

I mean, of course it's a serious institution, but everyone is very friendly there. And the people at Chicago are friendly in their own way, but I think it's people that are there to do research. Is it kind of cutthroat U of C a little bit more? Cutthroat's not the right word. I would say it's kind of austere. Like I'm in this building that's been there for like uh we're in these sort of fortresses, like it's kind of the gothic architecture. Yeah, yeah. It's like kind of cold. Like, you know, people joke around. I have good friends that are my colleagues are good friends and and everything like that. But it feels like when you're there, you're kind of working. Yeah. Okay. Whereas at Brown, you know, it was I I just maybe you just feel warmer and fuzzier about it in some way.

SPEAKER_00 6:54

Totally.

SPEAKER_07 6:55

It was a little less serious, maybe a little less formal.

SPEAKER_01 6:58

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_07 6:59

People are still doing craft, but yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:01

Yeah. I remember when I was visiting colleges, I remember touring Brown, and I was like obsessed. I was like, I have to go here. These people are so cool. And of course I didn't get in, but I definitely was really like charmed by it. And you Chicago is they're not trying to really charm you.

SPEAKER_07 7:19

I I don't know. I mean, you Chicago, I think the people are are quirky. I have really bright students, really hardworking students. Like, but I wouldn't say they're like Huffle Puffs. I mean, some of them are. I mean, they do the whole thing scavenger hunt scab or whatever like that. But at Brown, like I think the people are more counterculture, like just the way they dress. Like Brown is close to Risdi, the art school, Providence is just weird. It's like everyone's just like a little weirder, a little more alternative.

SPEAKER_02 7:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 7:48

Whereas Chicago's like, you know, it's economics, like very stately. Yeah. At least in the math department, like I was in today. I basically was just in my office. Like I hit the farmer's fridge, like I normally do twice a week, because it's right around the corner from my office. I just I'm eating my salad, like, you know, doing my thing. Got it. But that just might be a postdoc first grad student. Like it's it's just a different. This is really a job that I have, whereas PhD was more education plus labor. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:17

I'm curious too about going from the culture of like Michigan to Brown to use Chicago. That's so interesting. Because Michigan's so different.

SPEAKER_07 8:24

Yeah, we we can even start earlier. Like I grew up in a very like sheltered, pretty well off suburb. Like I was suburb of Philadelphia.

SPEAKER_02 8:33

Philadelphia.

SPEAKER_06 8:34

Let's say. What suburb? My wife's from Philadelphia. Oh, wow. Butts County. Oh, okay. My wife grew up in Center City. So I mean she was like a city kid, but um, she went to Friends Central. Oh, okay. Um, but yeah, interesting.

SPEAKER_07 8:46

Yeah, no, my my dad is local to the area. My mom's from Cherry Hill, New Jersey, which is right over the river. Yes, my father-in-law lives in Cherry Hill. Okay, right on. Wow. A lot of Jewish people in that area. Yeah, for sure. For sure. Shout out. In any case, um, very sheltered. And then, like, definitely in my school, um, you know, I I wasn't really exposed to a lot of things out there. Like, I was kind of just like doing like the worksheets. I had some I had some pretty inspiring teachers, but I really just hit like a wave when I walked into Michigan on day one. Just how like many people there were how exciting, how challenging it was, how brilliant everybody was.

SPEAKER_01 9:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 9:23

I met like the coolest people ever at Michigan. I'm a diehard Michigan man. Like I I love that place.

SPEAKER_02 9:29

Oh my god, that's amazing. Josh.

SPEAKER_04 9:32

I I love I like I like Michigan.

SPEAKER_02 9:34

A fellow Michigan alum.

SPEAKER_04 9:36

I'm a Wolverine. Yeah. I love Michigan.

SPEAKER_07 9:38

I'm I'm I'm pretty excited. I love that.

SPEAKER_02 9:40

That that's a great description.

SPEAKER_07 9:43

Let me say I'm very proud to to have gone to Michigan.

SPEAKER_02 9:45

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_07 9:47

Totally.

SPEAKER_02 9:47

Josh and I this weekend were in Ohio because my my sister-in-law is an Ohio State fan, and I accidentally brought a Michigan like champions shirt that his grandfather got me. I was like, I can't believe I brought this.

SPEAKER_06 9:59

There was a guy at my oldest son's basketball game in the stands who was wearing a shirt that was um you could tell it was Michigan because it was blue and what's the color? Or maze.

SPEAKER_02 10:14

Sorry, sorry.

SPEAKER_06 10:15

That's why I didn't want to say gold because I knew it was something else. Sorry about that. It was blue and maze, and it all it was blue, and the lettering just said anyone but Ohio State.

SPEAKER_07 10:23

Yeah, that's what the shirt said. And I was like, that's great.

SPEAKER_01 10:26

I love that.

SPEAKER_07 10:27

I don't take like that rivalry like that far. I mean, because I actually Ohio State has some really good programs. Like, I sure they're there, but I mean the football team is a different I can I can hate them. Yeah without any worry. It's awesome. Good, clean fun. Definitely.

Why Pursue A Math PhD

SPEAKER_02 10:41

Yeah, yeah. Okay, wow. So I have like a million questions. We're gonna talk to you eventually about your wise mind and like how you find it. And I'm also curious if math like plays into that in any way. Absolutely. It does. Okay. Yeah, what what brought you to math?

SPEAKER_07 11:00

What brought me to math? It's it's I mean, I I liked a lot of things in school, but math we you know, I could get on a soapbox for a long time about this, but math education in most places in this country is very much like here's a recipe, follow the recipe. Whoever can follow it like the most docile way, who like does keeps their head down, just sort of like follows the rules and does the procedures, doesn't ask questions, yeah, doesn't really care about what it's good for, why we're doing it, you know, they're they're gonna be like considered the best at it. There's no creative. I don't think many people think there's creativity when it comes to math. I mean, you're kind of just like copying like what you see. It's like the um maybe it's like the round two in um Great British Bake Off or something like that.

SPEAKER_02 11:50

Yeah. So the what is that, like the physical challenge? Yeah, right, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 11:54

Yeah, or it's like something technically.

SPEAKER_07 11:56

It's not like round three. Like that's what math is really like.

SPEAKER_01 11:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_07 11:59

But you don't know that. But I was I was pretty good at it until I wasn't. I mean, I had this teacher in 11th grade, Miss Gooding, who was always like she was saying I wasn't doing it right because I wasn't. Like she was actually calling me on the little details and was like pushing me, like she didn't really say this. Everyone thought she was just kind of a hard ass, but she was actually a fantastic teacher. She was like, she pushed me to really put my nose in and really think critically about what I was doing. Because I mean, I think it's very natural you do something until you're not good at it anymore, and then you just want to quit. Like, we're all kids on the inside. I quit soccer after a year.

unknown 12:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 12:31

We just went into my parents crying, and they I think my mom folded or something like that.

SPEAKER_02 12:35

Totally.

SPEAKER_07 12:36

But I didn't quit at this. I I distinctly remember studying my ass off for this one quiz. I I took the quiz and I didn't even get a hundred, and I was like shell-shocked because I worked as hard as I possibly could.

SPEAKER_01 12:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 12:48

And I still fucked it up. Are you allowed to square on this thing? Oh, yeah. Okay. Leave it in. All the time. Anyway, though, I distinctly remember I bumped into her at like by the bathroom and she showed me my quiz, and she was like, you know, it turns out I I had a typo on the last question, so it was unsolvable. So I I actually did master it. And that was just a really like life-changing moment.

SPEAKER_02 13:09

Just said she was like dropped to your knees, cross.

SPEAKER_07 13:11

I was like, this is a sign from the universe because I worked hard, I enjoyed it as I was doing it, and I saw success. And that's all anybody can ask out of life to work hard. I love um stay hungry, stay foolish. I mean, Steve Jobs' famous mantra.

SPEAKER_02 13:26

Stay hungry, stay foolish. I never heard that.

SPEAKER_07 13:28

I I love that, and I think math really encourages you to be very humble and open-minded and gracious and inquisitive, and it's nice when you can see success following your efforts. And math has been all those things for me. So I was just instantly hooked at that point. That's great.

SPEAKER_06 13:44

I mean, this is you know, it hits very close to home right now for me because I my oldest son is in fifth grade, and um, math's been a struggle for him this year. And he has a teacher who's very uh, well, let's just say not the warmest, and they're teaching him advanced sixth grade math, but nobody ever asked us about it as parents. Like the school just thinks that that's right and what they should be learning. Um, but it is it's all and there there doesn't seem to be much positivity in it. You know, my oldest son in a lot of ways is like an an effort guy, and he doesn't get a lot of like grades for the effort, he gets graded by whether it's right or wrong, the result, right? The result. And so I feel like math, at least in this season of his life, is kind of turning a little bit in his view of it, which I hate to kind of see, and I think it's salvageable, but and actually one of my questions for you was do math teachers get a bad rap? Um because I think sometimes, and I even had an experience with just like a really harsh, it's either right or it's not, like that type of thing. And that kind of turned me off to it a little bit. But yeah, anyway, in my life right now, it's just kind of like omnipresent of it's like he's putting in all this effort and he's going in early, and you know, he's like really grinding it out and trying to like do the repetition, and we were trying to remember air. We're doing surface area right now, classic classic. So we're it's like he never remembers the, you know, he'll do the base times hype, but it's like it's a triangle, you gotta divide by two or you know, times by a half, right? And so there's always like one thing where it's like, oh, like you got it, but you don't you don't fully get it just yet.

SPEAKER_07 15:24

I I have so much. Like, I mean, one thing, yeah, I have a lot. I mean, yes, the education system certainly rewards product over process. Yeah. And I think in all pursuits in life, we want to think about what are we doing every day to get a little better, to get a little wiser, say, and we care less about, you know, an ultimate goal that we're trying to achieve. You just try to do the right thing every day. I mean, every everybody I think should wake up and just try to do, you know, the best they can. I don't care if it's in your job or if it's in your life.

SPEAKER_01 15:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 15:58

You just, you know, you just try. And um, math certainly rewards right or wrong, but math is not about right or wrong in actuality. The education system is about right or wrong. And and and I'm not I'm not totally kooky. I mean, no. If if like, yes, it is true that the area of a triangle is one half base times height, and if one of my students forgot the one-half, I would, I would mark that wrong. Right. But there is a question, like, how do we turn one half base times height? And how do we make this real, tangible? How do we connect this to something that makes sense? Yeah, it's one half base times height because if you take a triangle and you double it, you get a rectangle, and that's base times height.

unknown 16:33

Yeah.

Brown Warmth Vs UChicago Austerity

SPEAKER_07 16:34

You we make the every math formula, every math concept, you can just come back to it with all these different ways, and you can see it as so visceral. Yeah. And sometimes you don't. I mean, there are things in my research that I come back to time and time and time again. People are telling me new things about circles. I mean, I'm teaching this class. I mean, I'm learning new things about pie. I mean, it's you always come back, you always learn something new when you when you go back around again. So I I never sneeze at any math concept, but when you're first in it, it could feel very much like this is yours and and I'm just going through the motions and yeah. And if I don't understand why I'm doing it, I mean, some people's brains just can't do things blindly. They need to know why. Yeah, I think which is a good thing. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, maybe the teachers, you know, either can't or maybe they're expressing it in a way that your child isn't picking. I mean, it's hard with education. Sometimes you need to like really people need individualized attention, but they can't get it if there's 30 kids and it's just teach to the average. Being a teacher is very, very difficult at that level. I could never do it.

SPEAKER_01 17:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 17:42

30 people who need individualized attention with very different individual needs, one person can't possibly meet them all. No, and I appreciate the perspective of like math is creative, right?

SPEAKER_06 17:51

And math is could it be? It yeah, like it's it's not the math necessarily as it's the way that maybe it's just packaged, right? Yeah, like that. And that is all about process versus the outcome of just getting the right answer.

SPEAKER_07 18:06

Exactly. So what what is math? What is the limit of math? I mean, I I think it's very reasonable to argue many things which we would not think of as math are are math, mathematical in nature. Math is like the gym for your mind. It's uh it's sort of logical reasoning abstracted at its like purest form. Like making argument, reasoning, gathering information, making deduction, yeah, conversing with a fellow human being. I mean, we're in an interesting place right now where people are starting to use computers to verify correctness, yeah. But still, most of the time, something is only correct as you can convince someone that it's correct. Right. Like there is right, there is, in a sense, right or wrong. Again, like one plus one equals two.

SPEAKER_02 18:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 18:52

Until it doesn't. I mean, one plus one could equal zero in some contexts in the field with two elements. If you imagine adding one is flicking on a light switch, depends what it is. Imagine like one is like you flick the switch. So then if you go one, one, it's like flicking on, flicking off. Yeah. One plus one is zero, the same as having done nothing at all. That's what I tried. We try to broaden our minds by saying, like, you know, what are we doing here? What are the rules?

SPEAKER_00 19:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 19:19

What's the sum of the angles in a triangle? 180 degrees. 180. Come on, I don't know. Yeah, you're like, you told me. We could remember it. Yeah. I believe it's 100 degrees. We don't remember any of that. Well, we we can talk about, you know, we can talk about Thales' beautiful proof of this fact later, but in any case, except it's it's not always because here's a great example. Imagine, like, take a sphere and then sort of go from the north pole down to the equator, walk, and then go back up. If you drew that on a globe, you'd see three right angles in that triangle.

SPEAKER_01 19:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 19:49

That's you can't draw a triangle with three right angles on the plane. Right. So triangles on the sphere behave different than triangles on the plane. Interesting. Yeah. And this is we're getting into something called non-Euclidean geometry, which was discovered, invented in like the 1800s.

SPEAKER_01 20:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 20:06

Rules are meant to be broken. It's like jazz.

SPEAKER_01 20:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_07 20:09

We don't teach kids that.

SPEAKER_01 20:10

Right.

SPEAKER_06 20:11

Probably because you know, you can't. But maybe my son could write that on his test. These rules are meant to be broken. Yeah. That's what I'm gonna do here. So my answer could be right in a certain context.

SPEAKER_07 20:22

But but why, yeah, but why not push them and challenge them? Why, why are you doing this? What does this make you think of? Do we have anything in life that can bring this to life? I mean, can you take a salt shaker and try to get a sense for what its surface area is? Can you take a piece of paper and try to wrap it around and can you unfold it? Can you see like the circumference?

SPEAKER_06 20:43

Can you well it what's interesting about that real life example is um right now we're it do you watch Survivor? No, but I've certainly have heard of it. I've never watched, never watched one season of it. But they there it's a big season, it's season 50.

SPEAKER_02 20:59

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_06 21:00

Wow, isn't that wild?

SPEAKER_02 21:01

Amazing.

Rethinking Math Education

SPEAKER_06 21:01

So my wife was like, why don't we watch season 49? I think West, because you know, my oldest son's 10, so he's coming to an age where it's like TV watching is a little bit more enjoyable, or like consuming movies because it's actually things we enjoy too. Um, shout out, dog man. But um that's a shout out. Um but um, you know, so we're watching Survivor, and the other day, um my son came upon a towel that was just like all balled up, and he was like, It was at the end of the day, and he was like, God, he's like, This thing's still wet. I can't believe this is still wet. And I was like, Well, imagine you were on Survivor, like, how would you get it dry faster? And he was like, Well, I would lay it out and put it in the sun. And I was like, Well, why would you do that? And he was like, I don't know, it's bigger. And I was like, So there's more surface area. And he was like, Don't ever do that again. He was like, I was like, so that there, I feel like that was a bad win because it was like you understand that there's something shape, form, like there's something to be said about that, right? And so it was like a

SPEAKER_02 22:00

It just felt like a little bit of a moment, like you might drop.

SPEAKER_06 22:03

Even though well, I was more impressed that he just immediately was like, if I make it bigger, it'll dry quicker, right? And it's like so you do get like a larger surface area, we'll give you something. So um but it was funny that his then his knee-jerk reaction was stop at the mask.

SPEAKER_07 22:18

Like it's it's w it look, I mean, it's like work for them. I don't really totally I maybe it maybe I'm giving the impression that I love talking about math 24-7, but when I go home after doing math all day, I do just kind of play Xbox. Love it. Or watch dumb TV.

SPEAKER_02 22:36

Yeah, okay. What do you play on the Xbox?

SPEAKER_07 22:39

I just finished Tunic, great little puzzle game. It's like Zelda inspired a little Okay. I I was playing last night, I was just playing like the dumbest. Sometimes I actually seek out like the dumbest form of media. I'm I'm kind of sick and one thing that I struggle with is always trying to be productive. You know, I'm always like, what are my colleagues doing? Like, yeah. I had a therapist once who's like, you know, not everybody is like going home and learning Mandarin in their free time. So sometimes I actively try to do really dumb things. So I was just playing this game called Ninja Gaiden 2 Black or something like that. It's just a violent, vicious slap. I'm not a very violent, it's just mind-numbing button. It's just it's just button mashing and yeah. It's just it's fun. It's good fun. I I don't have to be productive in every aspect of my life.

SPEAKER_02 23:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 23:24

But you think it because you know you're trying so hard to get ahead in your career and set yourself up. And I'm always pushing myself. Um, but you can't push yourself that much. I mean, yeah. It is a shame though. When you make something your job, you kind of do lose the you know, they say don't monetize your hobbies. I really believe it.

SPEAKER_02 23:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 23:41

I don't do math for fun anymore.

SPEAKER_02 23:43

And you did at one point.

SPEAKER_07 23:44

Oh, for sure. Yeah. I don't really read math as much anymore in the evenings or read articles or watch videos about it. I've kind of like, now that I'm doing it just as my nine to five, I'm kind of a little like, all right, it's time for something else. It's time to like go home, talk to Amanda, make dinner.

SPEAKER_02 24:01

Yeah. Amanda, your fiance.

SPEAKER_07 24:03

My my fiance, Amanda. We're we're long distance. She's finishing her math PhD at Brown.

SPEAKER_02 24:07

Oh, she's getting her math PhD.

SPEAKER_07 24:10

We met in the program. Got it. It's not a coincidence.

SPEAKER_06 24:12

We were both doing math PhDs at Brown. Do you feel like inherently that's just a wise decision for you to kind of have the nine to five and then I need I I really hate having things weighing on me.

SPEAKER_07 24:25

Like Publisher Parish is just not good for me.

SPEAKER_02 24:27

I'm realizing that this is like a mantra in academia.

SPEAKER_07 24:32

I think so.

SPEAKER_02 24:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 24:33

What happens when you go for an academic job? It's my understanding. Like they look at what you've published and what journals have you published in. And then, like, you know, the letters are gonna speak to how groundbreaking whatever you did in the papers were so it really is. Like, I think you're kind of compared to your latest what what artist isn't? Like, like what what's your latest album like? You know what I mean? Like, are you are you growing? Like, are you experimenting? Are you just sort of turning out the same? I'm sure if like like mathematicians listen to this, they'd completely disagree with me, but I really do see it as like you have to keep coming up with stuff. Like, I personally want each of my papers to be like a little better than the one before. That better is so loaded. Who decides what's better? Who decides what's good? You might love a show, I might not like it. I mean, a survivor, if someone makes survivor, like are they a good artist?

SPEAKER_02 25:28

I mean that that is such an interesting question in what we do. Like, what is it for us to have like a good session? Right. I mean, I think about this all the time. Like, anytime I might like beat myself up for something that happened. I mean, and Josh, you do a great job of this, and you do this too, John. Like, if I would talk to you about it or talk to Josh about it, there would be so many lenses from which to look at it and notice you know, this can be helpful in this way. This is an experience of their life that they're navigating that you gave them or you shepherded them through, or whatever. Even like breaking up with a client, you know, all these things, we're almost, I think, unable in some ways to measure how well we're doing at our job, right?

SPEAKER_06 26:14

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that probably yes. Yeah. Because I think that, well, and it depends on the framework, right? And some people I think psychology probably has a little bit of a chip on its shoulder because it is a softer science. Yeah. And it really, there's a lot of people that want to push it into like we can measure everything, and but there's just so much you don't know, and it's so subjective in so many different ways that it's really hard to measure.

SPEAKER_04 26:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 26:39

So I think the best that people do is with assessments or batteries on people's symptoms, and and yeah, but that's a self-report. And for me, what lacks there is you don't get the data on okay, so even if you are having a reduction in depressive or anxious symptoms, how are you actually engaging in your life? And is that really like a meaningful way to engage in your life? Is that are you fulfilled in your life? And when your anxiety or sadness does come, how are you navigating that? And that's more of a conversation, it's not really a measurement. So I think that people come to us wanting to just feel better, yeah, or they want to feel good, and that's gonna be their measurement and their mind of it, but it's not it's a lot of times what we do makes people feel worse.

SPEAKER_02 27:23

Oh, totally.

SPEAKER_06 27:24

Right? Having been in therapy myself, yeah. Same being a therapist, yeah, right? Like you feel worse a lot of the time engaging in it. Yeah. And the hope is that eventually maybe you there's some relief. But I don't even write that word better is kind of like what does it mean?

SPEAKER_07 27:40

It's a I mean, I was just at my PCP and I was telling him, like, I I did a blood test, my triglycerides were maybe high. And he was like going on about like how we don't treat numbers, we treat people. And I think it's very commendable and important that y'all treat people and not metrics. Yeah, yeah. People need a time in their life when when they can just be a whole person and not be reduced to what's my weight and my cholesterol and my this score and that score.

SPEAKER_01 28:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 28:08

I I personally never leave a therapy session thinking that something went poorly. Like with I mean, even if I disagree with what they say or suggest, I still take it as an opportunity to challenge myself.

SPEAKER_02 28:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 28:23

It it's always wise to get a dissenting opinion before you make a decision.

SPEAKER_02 28:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 28:28

You know, I yeah, you don't want just a bunch of yes men around you telling like I I I I don't think I've ever gotten advice that's like really I've never broken up with a therapist or anything. So but I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 28:39

I don't know what it's like, but well, tell us about that if you're willing. Like you so you've seen one therapist.

Making Math Tangible For Kids

SPEAKER_07 28:46

I I've seen many over the years. Okay. Yeah. I I needed it to survive grad school. I mean, just to really manage, like I was having a lot of symptoms. I was having night terrors. That was the worst thing. Waking up screaming in the middle of the night. I don't know if I don't know if how many people know about this, but uh I really feel like I survived like through therapy. I clearly need had things that I had to get off my chest. Yeah. Stresses, difficulties with colleagues and and mentors. And I I just before then I wasn't really just talking.

SPEAKER_01 29:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 29:16

I I find that I can work through things when I talk. My favorite kind of therapy is DBT. I I like when the therapist is like asking leading questions and sort of guiding me to help me figure out the truth because I think it sticks. That's my approach to education. I like the Socratic method. When a student comes in, I don't just tell them the answer, I help them come to the answer themselves. Yes. Come to their answer themselves. I I try to sense what they are trying to figure out, why do they come to me, and how can I very gently help support them get there. So when they when they do get there and they have the aha moment, the the dopamine, the serotonin, that stuff fires. Like I want I think it only fires when they come to it themselves.

SPEAKER_02 30:03

Yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_07 30:04

I'm sure there's some physiological principle behind this. Like you like dopamine for delayed gratification. Like if you work at it and then you it clicks and you do it, that's when your brain rewards you. And I I want I thought DBT was doing that for me.

SPEAKER_02 30:18

Yeah, that's great. I actually, it's so funny. I do I do a newer type of therapy that I've been talking about on this podcast lately, and I have a supervisor in that, and she will always say, in this type of therapy, she was always she would always say, never make an interpretation. Like it needs to come from the client. Which, like, I think in general, I applied that principle, but I wasn't like religious about it. And in this context, I am, and it it's incredible what guiding someone gently to their own intuition really does, and how much more like solid that insight is. Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_06 30:56

And all and also just seeking therapy at an age range where people are very vulnerable, yeah. Right. Like that mid, you know, the late teens, early to mid-20s, like there's so much change and so much pressure, and we're choosing maybe a direction in life. But then also, especially if you're advancing through rigorous academics, there's so much pressure, right? And then there's, you know, we've talked about it before that diathesis stress model, right? Where it's like you might be predisposed to something, and then you you have that, and then you have enough stress where then it combines and and that's a very that can be a very fragile moment to that time period in people's lives where we do see the onset of a lot of different like mental health stress.

SPEAKER_07 31:41

That is exactly what happened to me. Like, as I said, I grew up in a very cushy, safe environment, and I went from being the person who was among the best in my at math in my grade to being among the worst. Like I was failing tests, I was doing very poorly. Uh, I wish I'd done therapy in undergrad, but uh like the caps when I went wasn't actually that helpful because I realized there's different types of therapy. I didn't really know that, but yeah, in grad I I wish I had that advantage in undergrad. I mean, to work through some things to help ease some of the pressure and the stress, get some healthier habits, sort of deal with this this real change. I mean, maybe there was some stuff late in there that that just sort of came out when all this the huge stress stress that that college is. Yeah, totally. But I you know what I we can't go back and change the past. I'm very thankful that I, you know, figured out what I need when I did. I mean, I think it led me to doing a successful PhD. If I continue to sort of struggle in silence, I mean I don't know if I would have finished the program. You can't with with willpower alone, you can't sometimes get it done.

SPEAKER_01 32:48

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_06 32:49

Well, if you're willing to speak to it, did you talk about wise mind in your therapy or that concept? I've never heard of the phrase wise mind. Got it.

SPEAKER_07 32:57

But I would love to know your yeah. Josh just sent me, I think, the the Google Gemini summary of what is probably better than our summary. You know, your personal touch could um could really help here. So I mean, what what is our working definition of that that's mathematics 101? Like, what what are our definitions here? What is what does wise mind mean?

SPEAKER_02 33:19

Well, honestly, we might differ slightly in this, but I'd be pretty similar. I think DBT wise you and I yeah, I think I sometimes think I add things to it that like Marshall and Ann would be like, that's wrong. And I would be like Right, who develop DBT, but that's okay. Yeah, but no, even like for me with clients, like the wise mind, like what they do in DBT, and maybe Gemini showed you this. Um, Venn diagram.

SPEAKER_07 33:46

There was a Venn diagram.

Rest, Play, And Not Monetizing Joy

SPEAKER_02 33:48

Okay. Emotion mind, rational mind, and then the synthesis of the two is the wise mind. I when I work with a client on contacting their wise mind, I in some ways, you know, it's like the sum is greater than its parts. I don't think of it as like identify all the parts that are your emotion mind and the parts that are your rational mind, and then like just add them up, you know, it's more like I find getting someone to a place of like stillness and awareness of like the different kind of parts and voices speaking to you. And then when we slow down and get into a little bit more of like a meditative place, like a sense of like knowing is in there. So for me, like it is almost a little bit spiritual when I work with clients on that. And it often I always tell them the parts that aren't wise mind are the gateway. Right and your relationship to them is the gateway. So, like if I have a part of me that's really perfectionist, I can't just like shove that out of the way and get to the wise mind. It's more engaging with that part mindfully and compassionately and getting it to like relax gets you to your wise mind. I'm sure Marsh would be like, I don't know what all that is. But really, like it's this center. It's the middle path. It's the middle path. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 35:10

I love that. And I think a lot of times people immediately jump to like, you know, what they've been programmed, like one's better than the other. Like a lot of people, when we work with them, will I at least in my experience, kind of be like, well, no, like I want to be in my logic mind a lot more. Yeah. Like I really want to be in that. And and they have like a kind of firm grasp on like, I'm too emotional and I need to like shut that part down. And it really is, you know, that Venn diagram, like that that middle section is very big. We want to hold space for both. And that's where that, like, we want to be validating of our emotions. We don't want to like just completely push that away. And at the same time, we can feel really intense emotions and still have rationality. We can still have logic. That's not easy. And also, too, with I think people forget that like it's never like threading a needle where it's like 50-50. We can be much more in a rational mind and still be accessing our emotions, or we can be in a state of maybe more flow with our emotions and not completely lose control and be impulsive, right?

SPEAKER_07 36:12

For sure. Not not having balance. I mean, it's it's everything in moderation, including moderation. Yeah. And and why would you ignore perfectionism when it comes to your door? I mean, yeah, you I think acknowledging how you're feeling, how you're thinking, like you have to that's how we come to accept ourselves. That's that's the gift. I when you can just notice how you're feeling or when you're in a pattern, I would just have these incredible spiraling sessions that would go on 30 minutes on end, just intense thoughts. Like a therapist gave me a great trick. He's like, you know what? Whenever you wash your hands, you're just gonna feel the water.

SPEAKER_01 36:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_07 36:48

I need that sometimes. Like, and just I what I need is to just take stock of who's in the room right now. Like you're anxious or you're processing or you're trying to logic your way through something. Like once you acknowledge that, then you can respectfully sort of say it's it's state and go back to your inner circle that you can go back to the path. I this morning, like I sat for five minutes in silence. Sometimes I'll just set a timer on my phone. Just don't look at a screen, just just don't look at anything. Just like it's it's hard. I I like doing it. Like these, I that's that's my form of meditation. Just like notice the thoughts as they come in. Where does my mind go? Yeah, it starts with what I have to do, it starts with my obligations, it starts with the math problem I haven't solved or can't solve, or this chore or that chore or this stressor.

SPEAKER_01 37:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 37:37

It's nice when they when I when I see them though and I send them on their way, and then I'm back to in a place where things are a little more imbalance.

SPEAKER_01 37:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 37:46

If everything seems a little less gray and dire and and uh and urgent. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 37:52

No, I like that idea of like you can't logic your way out of this, right? Like that's such a wise even thing to just notice because I think we all try to fix things or problem solve things in in a lot of different ways in our lives. I know I do, and it's like you just gotta drop the rope on that sometimes. Like, this isn't a problem to solve right now, right? And it's actually making whatever the feeling you're feeling probably exponentially more intense because you're just not allowing you just gotta be with this right now, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:24

And I bet that applies so much like to math itself in your career. You know, like meaning like the willpower and the efforting towards something versus like spaciousness of not knowing is where knowing comes. Like really allowing yourself to be adrift and not fighting that is where like deep and profound knowing comes up. I wonder if that like that is a thousand percent true.

SPEAKER_07 38:50

Yeah. Roth and Deke, one of the most visionary minds of mathematics in the 20th century, maybe ever, like his analogy for mathematical understanding was like a walnut or a chestnut where you submerge it into water and you great, like just over time gradually wear it down until it just sort of reveals itself to you.

SPEAKER_00 39:09

Yeah.

Publish Or Perish And Self-Worth

SPEAKER_07 39:09

You can't just like sort of sit at like a heavy boulder and just try the same exact thing just to lift it up. Like we're we have a finite amount of strength. Typically, like the path of the mountain is not the one that you're trying to forge. You need to step back a little bit. Like you can still solve the problem, but you need to sort of take a breath, take stock. How are you feeling? Are you hungry? Are you tired? Are you frustrated? Are you wasting your time? Are you spinning your gears? There's, you know, get a meal, watch some TV. A new idea will come. Inspiration will strike. You'll have some new insight. Yeah. But you can't, you won't if you're just in like a panic spiral. That's not that's not how ingenuity or creativity or insight. I don't think that's where that comes from. Right.

SPEAKER_06 39:54

It's interesting because with the with the way you speak, there's so many skills that are embedded there, like eating and things like that. Like emotional regulation skills were like the PLES acronym from a DBT perspective, or the water on the hands. That's grounding or self-soothing. Exactly. Or the tip, right? So even just in you know, informal conversation, there's like so many wise skills embedded in that that help us to maintain maybe a level of um wisdom where we're not swinging so heavily into either that emotion, if we're thinking of that pendulum, that emotion or that very, very rational place.

SPEAKER_07 40:30

You would you would think math is all in the rational side, but yeah, nope, math is very much found in the balance.

SPEAKER_02 40:37

Totally. You know, it's funny. I was even thinking the stepping back, like, I don't know what you think, Josh, but like I even find like when we have conflict, like the only way we really ever like get through is when we like step back and look at like what are the fucked up things either of us are doing in this conflict? Don't you think? Take five. Take five. Well, that's what we do now. We take five.

SPEAKER_07 41:01

I was just telling my student that today. Like, yeah, you we I can it's fun when when you get when you have the privilege to be a teacher, like you can sit back and watch somebody tunnel visioning and you can say, Hey, let's zoom out a bit. Let's let's where what are we doing? What do we know to be true? What are we trying to do? You know, why is the thing that we're doing not working? Yeah. My student, he just kept saying, like, because n equals one, because n equals one, and he was trying to do this thing, he was failing. He maybe he was beating himself up. Maybe the pressure that his parents and grandparents are putting on him was getting to him. But I was like, hey, n is not equal one in this context, n equals zero. Like, yeah, it's not some character flaw, which is why you're not solving this, it's because you don't have the right information. Yeah. And of course he solved it when we when we correct that one little parameter. Yeah. You can't, you can't beat yourself up. I mean, yeah. I it's I of course I'm not perfect. I still do beat myself up. I mean, yeah, but at least I know that I'm beating myself up.

SPEAKER_02 42:02

Yes, yeah. The knowing.

SPEAKER_06 42:04

Isn't that such a though, also too like a I imagine, a gratifying moment to be able to model for someone like, okay, let's drop this for a sec and just kind of like I know what that's like, and I'm noticing what's coming up. Like, let's just take a step back here, right? For sure.

SPEAKER_02 42:21

Yeah. Okay. So tell us about how therapy has affected like the other parts of your life, not necessarily math or your career. What have you noticed?

SPEAKER_07 42:31

I I think it's really important for balance. I mean, yeah, my career does monopolize a lot of my mind, but also my like relationships, like I mean my relationship with friends, but you know, yeah, I'm I'm thinking about my romantic relationship. I mean, there's a lot of stresses and pressures with this wedding, and I've never been married before. I mean, it's there's a lot of stuff going on in life, you know what I mean? Like navigating new situations with Amanda, and it's good to to bounce things off people. Yeah, it's good to say, yeah, we were fighting about this thing, and like try to come to understand. I find that I leave, I understand her perspective a lot better when someone else talks me through it. Yeah, it's good to have a it's good to have a third party.

SPEAKER_02 43:19

Totally.

SPEAKER_07 43:20

A neutral observer. I I love just being able to just get everything off my mind, like fully honestly in therapy, because I know that that person's not going to go and have a stake in it. Yeah, they're impartial if they're doing their job right.

SPEAKER_02 43:34

Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_07 43:36

And instead of shouting it out into the void, like you I mean, I guess these days you could just put it in AI or something like that. But the thing is still a human touch. We start crying. Oh, the AI therapist. No, I know, I know. AI, I I have look, I have I haven't tried it before. It's not nearly as good as as the human stuff.

SPEAKER_06 43:53

Shout that on the mountaintops, then.

SPEAKER_07 43:55

Yeah, yeah, please.

SPEAKER_02 43:56

Spread that around.

SPEAKER_07 43:58

Hey, mathematicians feel the same exact way. I'm sure I'm not sure. Everybody, yeah. But no, I actually feel really bad for people who it's probably not their choice to do AI therapy. Yeah. Navigating my healthcare has been nightmarish this year. I switched to an HMO. It's like I finally figured out what I was doing. Yeah. Yeah. Like some of one of my therapists became out of network. It took forever to find someone in network. It's just like yeah, it's just really it's it's a completely noxious system. So I could understand why someone would turn to.

SPEAKER_02 44:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 44:28

And it's like it's probably, it's probably not all bad, but it's probably not no absolutes. Yeah. Totally. You cannot replace just another human person. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:40

So okay. You're in a long distance relationship and planning a wedding. Yes. Okay. We're both married, John and I. I've been married for less than a year. Mazarin. And spoiler alert. Spoiler alert, it's the best. I told Josh today. I said to Josh today, I go, I love you more than anything in the world. And he goes, I love you more than so many things. And I was like, but not everything. He's like walked away. I was like, oh my god, I love it. I'm a little nervous right now.

SPEAKER_03 45:10

What? Why are you nervous, man?

SPEAKER_07 45:11

Oh, am I nervous? Nah, he's not.

Therapy, DBT, And The Socratic Path

SPEAKER_02 45:14

It would have been better if you just would have said, That's nice. Yeah. You basically did later, and then I had to like reassurance Zeke. I was like, You love me the same exact way that I love you. He was like, Yes. Wait, what did you keep saying? I said, Do you love me same thing? Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 45:30

And then you're like staring at him in bed in the middle of the night. You still you love me though. Right.

SPEAKER_00 45:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:36

You love me that much. I think marriage is like, and for me, the fucking greatest thing. It's so hard, but it's so wonderful and worth it. I think it's fun.

SPEAKER_06 45:47

Yeah. Yeah. It is. I could imagine it's fun. I I I yeah. It's hard. I think the some of the best advice I ever got was you have to work at it every day.

SPEAKER_01 45:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 45:57

Yeah. And and some days you're you're not gonna work at it. And and that is hard, right? That's hard to accept. Um but I think that getting complacent is not where I find the most fulfillment. It's where I have to really like show up for my partner and keep that at the forefront while also, you know, showing up for myself. But it it is work and it's like so fulfilling. I mean, this person that you're just sharing your life and all these experiences with. And then, you know, for my personal life of throwing in two kids, it's like you share all these moments that are just like they seem small maybe in the moment, but that's like you don't share them with anybody else. It's like that's your partner. Feels like a real privilege, yeah, honestly.

SPEAKER_07 46:43

Just like, yeah, I feel very gracious to Amanda just to get to have someone to text on the to share the good news with. I got an internship of some kind today. She I called her first. Congratulations. Thank you. Um it's just, yeah, but but then you do have to show up when she's not having a great day or when you are having an argument or disagreement. And I I sometimes get into bad thinking, like, you know, oh, I mean, maybe I should be doing X right now. But my relationship is an incredibly important part of my life. It deserves time and attention every single day.

SPEAKER_02 47:19

Yeah. So, okay. I mean, I'm curious about like your wise mind and a long distance relationship. Like, what do you make of that? How do you find your wise mind in that?

SPEAKER_07 47:32

I'm not the I'm not the best at it. I think that's one area where I really do have to work at developing wise mind.

SPEAKER_00 47:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 47:38

I get disappointed and a little saddened that I mean, I go home to an empty apartment most of the time. And we we we talk on on FaceTime every single night. Like that's a that is a rule of our our relationship. But it's not the same. I mean, yeah, I I miss the like physical touch. I mean, that that really has a profound impact, I I think.

SPEAKER_01 48:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 48:02

We we do try to see each other very frequently, but when you're talking to somebody behind a screen, I find it harder to get that emotional.

SPEAKER_01 48:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 48:09

Sure. I mean, I mean, of course I love her and I'm very loyal to her and dedicated, but it's just yeah. I mean, when are so we on Zoom most of the time or on it's like for work purposes, like it just feels a little impersonal. So I I I find myself not in that path. Totally.

SPEAKER_02 48:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 48:26

And it's harder to hash things out sometimes. Like there's some things that like communication, things get mistranslated, or yeah, you don't really know what's going on with the person. Like it's just we're actually getting married and have a whole extra year of long distance on top.

SPEAKER_02 48:40

Oh boy.

SPEAKER_07 48:41

Wow. Wow. Not not ideal, but we're doing it. You're gonna do it.

SPEAKER_02 48:45

You're doing it. And it's like life takes you where it takes you. Exactly.

SPEAKER_07 48:49

And moreover, we're gonna do it one day at a time. Right. Yeah. I just gotta get through tonight. I mean, after this, I I'm gonna go home and we're gonna talk about it. And I want to hear about her day, and I want to hear how making pizza Hamentoshin was with her friends.

SPEAKER_02 49:02

Wow, is that what she did?

SPEAKER_07 49:03

I saw a picture, they look very good.

SPEAKER_02 49:05

What's Hamentoshin?

SPEAKER_07 49:07

I know I'm familiar with they're little triangle-shaped pastries. Oh, nice. Okay. Filled with fruit or jelly.

SPEAKER_02 49:13

Josh gave me a blank look. Do you know?

SPEAKER_04 49:15

Yeah, I'm just the third. I'm the third to talk. I I try to only talk to fill the blanks or when I'm directly addressed. Yeah. For rhythmic reasons as the editor. That would be base times height.

SPEAKER_07 49:28

Oh, that the mathematics of or the optimal ratio of fruit filling to pastry. No, it's because the bad guy and the Purim story. Purim is like Jewish Halloween. The bad guy wore this like tri-cornered hat. Okay. So I guess we're eating his hat for I don't know if eating the hat has anything to do with it, but yes, that's that's the shtick.

SPEAKER_02 49:47

That's the shtick. Okay. So wait, what was Oh, you were saying that you were gonna chat with her.

SPEAKER_07 49:52

Yeah, I want to hear about how that went. And like we want to touch base. Like, I I know, but we we've actually it's been good. Like all sometimes is we'll be on the phone together while we're doing individual things, and like that's kind of nice. But yeah, at the end of a very long day, it's just kind of nice just to like sit next to someone, like eat leftovers, watch a show. And um we sometimes we can sometimes we'll sync up TV like at the same time and we'll be yeah, but it's like nobody liked COVID, nobody liked long distance, like nobody liked the social distancing, it's like mandated social distance from the person where you're supposed to be, you know, really closest with like two souls, all that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_06 50:25

I mean, sitting with someone is like that's just there's nothing better.

SPEAKER_00 50:30

The best.

SPEAKER_06 50:30

It's like sitting with my kids, sitting with my wife, like it's just like you're sitting, right? And it's just like you know that they're there, and it just that connective tissue without having to say anything, and yeah.

SPEAKER_07 50:44

And how many times are we sitting next to somebody and not appreciating it? Right all the time.

SPEAKER_02 50:48

True, right? Very true. Josh and I talk a lot about like we actually kind of have the opposite issue where we like sometimes we think about it and we're like, we probably spend too much time together, like in the same, you know, very close quarters. Some of our conflict, we're like, we need to like mindfully like get the fuck away from each other and just like let each other like we're probably just a little sick of each other. There's some there in the world. Oh, yeah. And I like say that with like immediately kind of wanting to take it back, but I know it is the wisdom. What do you think?

SPEAKER_04 51:24

Oh, totally, yeah. Sometimes we just need to take five, yeah, or sometimes we need to take 55.

SPEAKER_02 51:30

Yeah, because we're together a lot. It's like 20s, it's like people aren't a lot of people aren't yet having kids and like going inside their homes never to come out again. Yeah, and like we're at until their kids are in college. People are not like that night we went out to the basement. I mean, I was shocked I was still standing because it's like we don't do that anymore. Like I did that in my 20s all the time, every weekend. But like now we go out to dinner, like that's what you do. You like have drinks and dinner, right?

SPEAKER_07 52:01

Which are which are I don't go out to dinner? Yeah, I like I like drinking some drinks. I don't go out to dinner. You don't go to dinner.

Wise Mind: Balance Over Extremes

SPEAKER_06 52:07

No, no. I was looking so forward to last week where you know, Sarah and I looked at each other and we were just like, God, this is great. Like Friday, we don't have anything to do. And it's like sometimes when you didn't have anything to do before you had kids, you were like, Let's go out. Let's, or you know, like let's like catch a movie or this and that. And it was like, we cannot just wait to come home and just be like homebodies because it's like we're taking our kids here. So much shit. There's just all of these things, and it's like that is never, or even when our kids like when we take our kids like to my parents' house or they're away for a few days, it's so interesting people's reactions because a lot of times people that don't even people who do have kids, but people who don't have kids will immediately be like, Well, what are you guys gonna do? And it's like, we're gonna get takeout and enjoy our home without our kids. We're never at home when our kids aren't there. So it's like there's something to be said about we're watching our shows and like the couch is like spacious because we're not all so yeah, it's just such a different shift where I remember just being poor on Mondays in my late 20s because I spent all my money at the bars both nights, yeah, Friday and Saturday. And I was like, what am I doing? I'm living like a baller here. I don't have any money. Like, what am I doing? This is ridiculous, right?

SPEAKER_02 53:22

So yeah, and it's like we're in the middle where like a lot of our friends are like not going out all the time. They're with their kids, like we're finding time, they're getting a babysitter, but it's like we it's me and Josh, like we're the center stage, so yeah, it can wind up being too much time together, which you'll be there at some point, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_07 53:44

Yeah. I I mean I I want us to have sort of separate career. As I mean, and it's like you know, opportunity to leave the house and like but I think like I would probably if if I'm without Amanda from nine to five, I'm I'm very good to hang out with her from six to uh totally, but uh yeah, I mean it's important to maintain. I want her to have her relationships with her friends and my friends. We actually don't have many mutual friends, I think it's fair to say.

SPEAKER_02 54:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 54:11

I think like when we did the wedding guest list, there was only like a few people we were like, I I want this person on my friend list. No, that person's on my friend list, you know what I mean? Most of the people, it's like you know, Andrew, you know, on my list, right? But like, you know, that she's gonna get Anna or whoever.

SPEAKER_02 54:28

Yeah, interesting. Yeah. I feel like we're probably the same. I mean, I love your friends, but like I wouldn't put them on my list.

SPEAKER_04 54:35

Now they're mutual friends, but they weren't.

SPEAKER_02 54:37

Yeah, who would we fight over? John. We would fight over you. Oh and I mean, obviously I was like, now we would. You and John have history. Yeah, you're going on my list. Sorry. Definitely. I love John. And now that Sam's I love you both.

SPEAKER_06 54:53

Don't fight over me. There's enough of me to go around. I love you, Sam. It's fine. I'll do that.

SPEAKER_07 54:59

You think from this one pod like I'm on your list now? Yeah. I don't Sam's on my list. That's a declined invitation. We have a texting relationship. Sam can be on Josh's concert. I actually like Sam.

SPEAKER_03 55:13

I actually like Sam.

SPEAKER_07 55:16

I think I'm on Josh's list right now. But yeah, I'm not gonna, we'll see how it goes. But you know, it's okay. Yeah, I just I there's not a comment being here.

SPEAKER_06 55:24

Let's play it a little bit loose here. Yeah, there was an article on my newsfeed about Goodwill hunting.

SPEAKER_02 55:30

Now and you both read it.

SPEAKER_06 55:32

I it's a movie. I didn't read Goodwill Hunting. No, I'm kidding. The article. I did not read the article, but the basically for people who haven't seen it, which how have you not seen that? If you haven't seen it, right? The article was maybe talking to the thing that mathematicians hate most about it. Is that what it was? And I was interested to read it, I just didn't get to. So I want to know some like myths or some math things that you're just like, this is preposterous. The math is just garbage. Like the math in the movie is garbage.

SPEAKER_02 56:03

The math is just garbage. It's so believable. I didn't even really realize there was actual math. Like, I guess I missed, like, I know it's that's the idea.

SPEAKER_06 56:10

But that's the thing. He's just like doing things and it I believed it. I completely not having a mathematical mind, I believed it.

SPEAKER_07 56:17

The things that that Will is doing, like, are sort of pedestrian, like elementary exercises that basically anybody in the class could do. It and also like the way that they set up the mythos of mathematics is like the lone genius. It's basically everything we don't want the public to think about mathematics, like so it's just playing into tropes and yes, very tired tropes about genius, which I think are kind of harmful and BS, right? Yeah. But the the the gravest offense is the is the mathematics. I mean, how accurate is the therapy? How accurate is Robin Williams? Because I I look up to him. I feel inspired by him actually.

SPEAKER_06 56:55

Yeah. I mean, I don't I think it's a pretty I again, it's a film, right? And so it's probably like a little bit overdone in certain ways, but I actually think there's a lot of good nuggets in there.

SPEAKER_02 57:10

Totally. I I think you know what's funny that we're talking about this because I had a professor, my abnormal child psych professor had a B in his monet about that, the therapy in that movie. And he was like, therapy is not just I'm spitting it. Therapy is not just it's not your fault, it's not your fault, it's not your fault. And I remember, I mean, I was young, I was in college, so because I'm just like writing this down like that's not what it is. And then I feel like in grad school I had a professor that was like, you know, this is a great scene. Like, there's some kind of like great nuggets. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 57:42

Not your fault. Never say that.

SPEAKER_02 57:44

Never say that.

SPEAKER_06 57:45

But so okay, so here's the thing. Does your professor at all moved in the fact that this was possibly like a corrective parenting experience in that session? Of that there was some form of it doesn't have to be a father per se, but just like this person who had no parental figures because they were an orphan, which was the term used in the movie.

Long-Distance Love And Daily Rituals

SPEAKER_02 58:09

Well, okay. So this professor, no, no, but he wasn't really appreciating that nuance, but also like some okay, I hate to say this, but sometimes I'm gonna make a huge overgeneralization. But I like it. Sometimes I like it, like a psychology professor is gonna have a very different take than a working therapist with clients many years of clinical experience. And my my grad school professors were all had practices and were had worked for many years, and I would like follow them under a train, like so great, so many of them. And I think this other professor was a little bit like getting off on kind of correcting it, but that's I'm with you where I'm like, you know, therapy, it doesn't have to be in the room like you're just like yelling at them to like themselves or something.

SPEAKER_06 58:55

Yeah, the therapy might like look not like the best therapy. I mean, he basically kind of assaults Matt Damon when he's rips up his painting or whatever, and then he like grabs him by the neck and is like, don't talk about my wife Southie's version of therapy.

SPEAKER_07 59:10

Right, but maybe if you're from Southie, you need Southie therapy. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 59:15

Totally.

SPEAKER_07 59:16

But but that movie, it's it's like it's like whipped whiplash. Either way, jazz. Oh yes, whiplash. Yeah, what are you you should watch? Adam Nearly has a great breakdown of just how I might have watched that on YouTube. Unfair the characterization of jazz as being like they made it, they try to make jazz into a sports movie, but it's just not. And they try to make math a sport, like the pursuit of greatness that one might in a in an athletic pursuit is just not the way math needs to be or should be. It's not about who gets the Fields Medal, it's not about who does something incredibly audacious. It's more about just being a creative, being a community member, yeah, supporting people, self-improvement, inquisitive, like following your inner voice and like speaking the truth. I I wish I loved the stuff I do more than I do. That's something I need to work on. Like I need to sort of learn to self-love a little bit more on what I have personally done. But that culture certainly doesn't engender self-love. The culture of Goodwill hunting. Right.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:19

What other math stuff grinds your gears?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:00:22

That maybe we're gonna do that.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:23

Did you see the movie Proof?

SPEAKER_07 1:00:24

No, what is that?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:25

Set at University of Chicago.

SPEAKER_07 1:00:27

Oh, okay. I just know Harriman Sally.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:30

Oh, and that was University of Chicago, too.

SPEAKER_07 1:00:32

Like five minutes.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:33

But I don't think that's math.

SPEAKER_07 1:00:34

No.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 1:00:36

That had nothing to do with anything.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:38

It's like, no, no, not math. What is what is proof of?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:40

Proof is, I mean, talk about this is one of Gwyneth Paltra's best roles. Her dad is Anthony Hopkins, and he plays a famous math professor who's losing his memory. Ooh. And she is a math student. I believe she's a student at Northwestern, and her dad is a U Chicago professor. And she ends up like oh, I don't want to spoil it, but she does some math stuff. Jake Chellenhall is also in the movie. It's a really good movie. Have you there?

SPEAKER_07 1:01:06

It's got an amazing cast, so it can't be can't be that bad. No, I'm improved.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:10

Um it's like, and Gwenneth Peltra also has like shaky mental health in the movie, so people don't like believe her, especially because she's a woman. There's like gendered pieces of like, could she have done this or did she steal stuff from her dad? He's losing his memory, yeah. Whatever. And then Jake Jillenhall's another student, and they kind of have like a dalliance, but he also is like obsessed with the dad a little bit. I think it's a great movie.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:32

Is there a wait, what's because so I know this is based on a real person, but not not that not that movie, but I'm thinking of a beautiful mind. So are is there is there a writing this down, it's not your fault.

SPEAKER_07 1:01:48

Um beautiful math beautiful mind is is the semi-autobi semi of John Ash. That's correct, who is a genius mathematician.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:56

Yeah, I mean is there a trope of mental illness in math?

SPEAKER_07 1:02:00

Is is that uh I don't I personally don't know of really any mathematicians who had like a mental breakdown.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:08

Yeah, I I think but is that something that people are like thirsty for, or is that like a gripping thing of someone who is kind of like the depressed writer or artists?

SPEAKER_07 1:02:18

It is it is a mo it is a motif, it is a trope, like the the the tortured genius, like pursuing the secrets of the universe, sort of isolated, yes, that's right. Yeah, yeah but um I I think most of the pathology I see among my colleagues is just undiagnosed manic depressiveness. Okay. Okay. People like, you know, when they have too much to drink, it literally comes out. Sure. Yeah. Um, I mean, there I haven't seen anybody. I mean, look, some people in undergrad like, you know, had to take leaves of absences, but I don't I've never seen math or really know of anybody senior in the field where math pushes them to something like that.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:57

No, I was just it was interesting when you mentioned that movie, and then you were like, well, she has her own mental struggles, which yeah, a lot of people in any domain have mental health struggles, right? For sure. But it's just it was just interesting that we were mentioning these movies, and then there's like this mental health.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:03:09

I mean, John Nash, I mean, he was schizophrenic. Maybe that was onset by the stress and the pressure to keep doing totally. I mean, John Nash did like some really incredible work, like at a very young age. Like my advisor was a child prodigy. Math really props up prodigies and like really does celebrate the myth of like the individual person of like genius. And that and there is truth to this, but I think my heroes are like among the the strongest mathematicians, like in terms of his raw ability. Like, think like the Kobe Bryants of math, if there could be such a thing. But they're incredibly humble and they're incredibly generous and they're incredibly kind and giving with their time and their resources, and and I really admire that. There isn't really hoarding for credit. I mean, that's that's just not a thing that you really see in mathematics, like sniping, spitting in the test tube. It is overwhelmingly a very generous environment. Counterexamples, but yeah, of stealing rocks.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:09

Like in therapy, I mean it's almost like nauseating how supportive everybody is of each other. A little. Yeah, sometimes.

SPEAKER_07 1:04:15

Yeah, no, math is overwhelmingly like that too. I mean, we don't have first authorship in math. We have alphabetical. Every paper published is alphabetical. Oh.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:25

I didn't know that. I didn't know that either.

Media Myths: Math On Film

SPEAKER_07 1:04:26

And and you can't sort of pinpoint who had this idea, who had that idea. When I collaborate with people, I mean it's you're just having conversations over the course of year or years. I mean, it doesn't matter who wrote one individual sentence. It's typically it is never like we don't keep we don't there's not a point system. This isn't fencing where like, you know, it's you're just building something together creatively. You're just jamming and you're throwing this in, you're throwing that in, and it's like whatever comes out comes out. Got it.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:59

Interesting.

SPEAKER_07 1:05:00

I like that.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:01

Yeah, I like that too.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:03

I like the math is garbage and good roll hunting.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:06

The math is garbage.

SPEAKER_07 1:05:07

The math is garbage. I mean, I we can do it. No, we don't have to get into specifics. We just talk about the problems. Like they are just they're just complete like jokes of problems. Like one of them is like draw like the number of trees, enumerate all trees on like seven vertices. I mean, it's like it's yeah, I don't know who consulted for this movie, mathematically, but well, wait, but obviously not somebody at MIT because didn't they make it when they had like no money? I guess. I just I really they should have had a a better scientific consultant. I don't know. It's really like kind of insulting. If they could have afforded that, right?

SPEAKER_06 1:05:40

If they could afford Robin Williams or have Robin Williams loan you some cash. Yeah, yeah. I mean, Ben Affleck at that time had already been in Mall Rats.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:48

I mean Oh yeah. So and dazed and confused.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:51

Wait, wasn't he in Mallrats?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:52

He was in Mallrats.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:53

Yeah, Ben Affleck's in Mallrats, pretty sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've seen it many boyfriend.

SPEAKER_07 1:05:58

Oh, okay. Yes, that's My dad is a big Kevin Smith fan. So I've picked up some of these, you know. Well that movie came out a long time ago, but you know, they figure they could have consulted with mathematical.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:15

Now the math in A Beautiful Mind, I remember the bar scene with like the three women.

SPEAKER_07 1:06:21

That scene's actually explained wrong. Like Is it? That that scene is not an example of a Nash equilibrium.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:28

Oh, math and movies. We should do a whole podcast on this.

SPEAKER_07 1:06:31

I do not think the the women in the bars example is actually it's it's really it's really stupid and misogynistic. Like no one go for the blonde, whatever. But yeah, that I don't actually that's not a Nash equilibrium.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:43

Like it you because he basically says go for the quote least physically attractive person because you can't get the blonde, because everyone will go for the blonde.

SPEAKER_07 1:06:52

It's a it's a dumb example. Yeah. Someone's gonna get in the comments. Don't go for the body. But actually, actually, uh, it is a great example of a Nash equilibrium. So here's the thing nobody watches this.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:02

So they're wonderful. That's right. So there's no just kidding. But there's a rule, huge following. No, but what we're really learning is that math is not represented well in media.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:12

Yeah, it seems like it. I mean, I'm not sure. Or at least I mean is therapy represented well in media? Well, some of the time it is.

SPEAKER_07 1:07:19

Sometimes, but well, why did I grow up with um, you know, therapy sort of being um stigmatized?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:26

Well, yeah, it's a great question.

SPEAKER_07 1:07:28

You know, not to blame any individual person in my life, but just in general, I do you know, it was not seen as like a positive thing, I don't think, in my community to like be I nobody talked about it. To go to therapy, only like the crazy liberals in college talked about therapy all the time.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:43

Yeah, right. I think therapy a lot of times when I was growing up, or at least the representations I saw it, was either like so positive and like fake in that way, or it was like somehow either taboo and like people kept it to themselves and like you don't talk about it. Or I guess the third option would be like just gross, like people complete negligence or people not adhering to ethics and sleeping with people, or you know, like that type of thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:12

Like it was like yeah, like cartoonish, like cartoonish kind of thing.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:17

Yeah, I don't know, but yeah, okay. Can can we engage in some silly questions?

SPEAKER_02 1:08:22

Yeah, let's do it.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:24

What's your favorite number?

SPEAKER_02 1:08:26

Yeah.

unknown 1:08:27

Jeez.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:28

Uh maybe not silly.

SPEAKER_07 1:08:29

Maybe that's I mean, I know it's huge. Mathematicians, I don't I'm actually not a number theorist. Um 31 was a number that was important in undergrad.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:43

Was that like your basketball number? I was just gonna ask. It was like if you played a sport, what would your number be?

SPEAKER_07 1:08:48

Would it be 31? Well, I that wasn't special to me, it was special to my whole class. Like basically, every my this one professor, Steven Debacker, teach this this one sequence at Michigan, and every iteration of the sequence gets their own prime number. So I was 31, which is who knows which prime that is. 10th prime, 11th prime.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:08

My favorite number has to be a prime number. No.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:11

Why? Because it's only divisible by one in itself? Is that what a prime number is?

SPEAKER_07 1:09:16

That is what a prime number is. Perfect. Two, three, five, seven. Is two the only even number that's a prime number? That's right, because an even number by definition is divisible by two. Right. So two is the lonely evenest prime. Wow. Two's a great number. I mean, actually, two monogamy.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:36

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_07 1:09:38

Good institution for me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:09:40

But 31 had represent had uh meaning for you and this class as well.

SPEAKER_07 1:09:44

Everybody, yeah, everybody in that class had this like some special spot place for 31.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:49

Hmm.

SPEAKER_07 1:09:51

Yeah, I mean, we'll go with that. We'll go with that.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:53

And when you turn 31, you have to have a special like birthday.

SPEAKER_07 1:09:56

Oh shit, I didn't even think about that. You're right. 29 is pretty unremarkable.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:00

29 is on the 29 is one of the worst ages there is. Not because the time is bad, although mine kind of was, but I think 29, it's like you're not quite 30, but like you kind of feel 30.

SPEAKER_07 1:10:12

Yeah, I know. I know. I can't say I'm 30, but I am 30. But there is a joke in math which, like, if you think of the most unremarkable number, it suddenly becomes remarkable. Given that it is the most unremarkable another.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:25

Yeah, that is a paradox. It's a paradox. I love that.

SPEAKER_07 1:10:28

That's great.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:29

Isn't that John Kabitzen says that where he's like, when you really pay attention to boredom, it becomes incredibly interesting.

SPEAKER_07 1:10:35

It's that. Yeah. Yeah. We are all saying the same thing. Like scientists, politicians, therapists, doctor, every every craftspeople, everyone, we're all tapping into the same kind of humanity.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:10:48

We just choose to wear different hats. Totally favorite.

SPEAKER_06 1:10:52

29's unremarkable.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:54

What's your favorite number?

SPEAKER_06 1:10:58

That's tough. I know what I would have as a jersey number. Yeah. I'd want to be a 99. Ooh.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:04

Oh.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:05

I I but like straight up, like I would want to be like a 99 guy.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:11

That's so high.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:12

It's so high. Nobody's higher than you.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:15

It feels uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:17

It's uncomfortably high, especially in like a basketball team where everybody's in the It's uncomfortably high.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:22

It's like nobody's above 50, usually. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:24

You know, but I like a random, like high number. When I was a kid though, for a jersey. And you can't go higher, you know, you can't be 100. I really can't. So it's like, this is great. I'm like right on the edge. Wow. So that would be my favorite.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:38

Yeah, if you had 100 on your jersey, everyone would be like, so that's like a novelty jersey. It's not a reality.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:42

What I do like though, and I noticed a couple seasons ago, the Indiana Pacers had two players. One was zero and one was double zero.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:49

Whoa.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:50

I didn't know you could be double zero. I didn't either.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:52

This was the first time I saw it. Double zero, it's not a real number.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:55

That's what I saw on it.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:57

Well, because you can have two digits on a jersey, I guess that's what they got away with.

SPEAKER_07 1:12:02

Wow. I would say it's a valid string, but I wouldn't say it's a valid number.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:12:06

Number, right.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:07

But when I was a kid, I really gravitated towards like a 34 or a 40 because 34 was Ray Allen's number when he got drafted by the box.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:16

Yeah.

Collaboration Over Lone Genius

SPEAKER_06 1:12:17

Um, and I'm from Milwaukee, so that was like a meaningful number. And of course, who didn't want 23? I mean, Michael Jordan, like when I was that was huge.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:25

Totally.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:26

What about you? What number, what are your numbers?

SPEAKER_02 1:12:28

I mean, a number that I go back to a lot is 21, actually. And then also my birthday is next week, March 11th. 11, a little bit of 11. 11's a good number. Yeah, 11's a good number.

SPEAKER_07 1:12:39

11's a great number.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:40

Yeah. So one of those 21. I mean, I think I was honestly like assigned that number when I was younger and played softball and then just began to identify with it. What does that say about me? Like middle child. I'm just like, I guess I'll play this role. Like something like that. But yeah, because like when I think about it, it doesn't give me like warm feelings. Yes. It just is sort of like, oh yeah, that's in my life, and it's some of my passwords.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:06

You know, oh, totally. My I had such respect for my older brother, who he was the number 17 for like every team I could ever remember him being. And he was the first person who was like, he just stuck with a number. It was like the you know, people just get a jersey, and and then as you get older, like people start to stick with a number that's theirs. But he like did it, I felt like at a very young age, and I thought that was so cool. I was like, Yeah, I mean, granted, everything I felt like he was doing was cool. But I was like 17, so random. I don't even think I like that number, but I like that you like it so much, you're just gonna stick with it.

SPEAKER_07 1:13:43

It's not actually random. Like the all of these numbers that we're picking are like in psychology. Like if you if you if you pick a number, if you ask someone on a street to pick a number from one to ten, they're invariably gonna say seven. Your mind might have even blinked to seven.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:56

Really?

SPEAKER_07 1:13:57

There's like little blinks we do where you don't want to pick something too low, you don't want to think something too high. I think all the numbers we said are odd. Maybe I missed one. Maybe we say 34. We said zero.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:05

I said 34 and 40, maybe, but yeah, we've been saying a lot of odd numbers.

SPEAKER_07 1:14:11

Okay, fine, zero is even.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:12

But 34, 3 plus 4 is seven.

SPEAKER_07 1:14:15

Yeah. Oh, that could have been psychology. I mean, I I but seriously that it would be if if we did this experiment, like random draws, like what is pick a number? Very few people are gonna say four. A lot of them will say three and seven. You would have to be a nut job to say one. Yeah. Pick our absolute psycho. That's really how you should how she all should start diagnosing psychopaths.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:14:39

Get that, Hunky.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:42

Psycho.

SPEAKER_07 1:14:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:43

That's amazing. No, you're right. I've never heard like one.

SPEAKER_07 1:14:48

But you should hear that one-tenth of the time if it was really random. Humans cannot generate randomness. Yeah, that's true. Oh, so if you if you had tried to simulate a coin flip sequence, it would invariably be detectable that it was done by a human and not by a real coin. Wow. Crazy. Wow. Every one in 32 flips, so like, you know, what what's the probability of getting a string of all ones? I mean, it's like you got to hit two, two, two, two, two, like one in thirty-two. So when you're looking at these random blocks, you should really see strings of all ones. But if if I ask you to simulate a random coin, when's the last time you flipped a coin it came up heads five times in a row?

SPEAKER_02 1:15:22

I mean, I never really do any of that, but two more silly questions from me. Okay, yeah, go for it.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:30

Are you are you okay to entertain these? I love silly questions. Low ball math questions. Would you have an advantage over someone like me in a card game?

SPEAKER_07 1:15:42

My I have some very brilliant friends who are you know astounding bridge players who absolutely use their number skills for advantages. And poker, like if you know mathematics, like you yeah, it's probability. That's that's only a that's only a part of the game. It's a lot of psychology, too. If you were great at at math and odds and probabilities, but you were also good at psychology and reading people and game theory, you'd be unstoppable. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:08

Oh, so I just gotta work on that math. But I personally.

SPEAKER_07 1:16:13

I mean, yeah, I I'm I'm not sort of Mr. Quick Calculation. Got it.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:17

Okay. And then like a party trick.

SPEAKER_06 1:16:19

You have more goofy questions.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:21

One more.

SPEAKER_06 1:16:22

How many digits of pie do you know?

SPEAKER_07 1:16:26

That is goofy. Uh 3.141592, I think, is what I got. Nice.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:33

That's pretty good.

SPEAKER_07 1:16:33

I'm at 3.14.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:35

So I'm at 3.14.

SPEAKER_07 1:16:37

Love it. I don't really think you need that many digits of accuracy. That's great. But they do that with kids in school for like a competition where the light is cute.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:44

Remember as many as you can, right? It is.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:47

Well, I was gonna ask one, like, and and this is for both of you. Did you ever in the past or currently like almost like assign like personality traits to the numbers?

SPEAKER_07 1:16:58

That is a real thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:59

Yeah, I do that a little bit.

SPEAKER_07 1:17:00

It's anesthesia, like some people who have color sensation associated with numbers. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:07

I think of seven as like kind of a bitch. Do you crazy? Yeah. A woman, definitely a femme presenting woman.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:15

I always think of two as kind of like childlike. Same little, but like small, but like little, like small, yeah, yeah. Not negative, but like small.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:25

Small. And one is kind of a menace child, right?

SPEAKER_06 1:17:29

One.

Numbers, Superstition, And Play

SPEAKER_02 1:17:30

One is like a little like troublemaker.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:32

I think what I'm coming to realize in this conversation is I don't think about one that much.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:36

Because even when you said that, I was like, God, I've never even thought of that, but I've never said one.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:40

That's not really on my radar.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:45

I think of ten were as bad.

SPEAKER_07 1:17:47

I think because that's induced the mathematical pattern between what is good and what is bad.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:17:52

I think ten was a good age.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:53

This is good, seven is bad. It was a good age for me. It's a loser.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:59

Why? Because eight's wearing such a tight belt, it's really a zero.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:04

Eight is like wannabe, wannabe, a ten, eleven, twelve.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:09

Oh, I don't know if I agree with that. I think.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:12

Wait, do you think eight's better than nine? Eight is worse than nine. Nine is like it's a wannabe, but a little more innocent.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:19

At least remember seven, eight, nine. So that's always a good joke. Six, seven.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:25

Oh, six, seven.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:26

I do it to piss off. I can't believe we've been talking to a math person and that hasn't even come up once. I was waiting for my chance.

SPEAKER_07 1:18:32

Uh I do it and uh and they just they just groan at me. I I think people are over it now.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:38

I mean, I was over it when it's they're extremely over it, and that's why I do it, just to just be an eye. Yeah, totally. I get my dad. You're harsh on some numbers.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:45

I know. I it's weird like how that even uh happened. I mean, I do kind of with days of the week, too.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:52

Do you are there unlucky numbers? Like, you know, Friday the 13th type of thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:58

I mean, probably 13. I mean, that's pretty basic.

SPEAKER_07 1:19:00

But 13 is lucky in Jewish culture, though.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:02

Oh, it is four apparently I thought 18 was lucky.

SPEAKER_07 1:19:06

18 is a great one because 18, so the Hebrew letters have numerical value, so 18 is high, which is life. Oh but 13 is like, I mean, bar mitzvah age.

unknown 1:19:17

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:17

Coming of age. Coming of age. Bene mitzvah age, should I say? Bene mitzvah.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:22

Um, I'll I have to phone a friend on this, but my aunt who grew up in Seoul, South Korea, I'm pretty sure in Korea, four is not a good number. Yeah. I think like she could not have an address. Like that was like a no-go. Like they couldn't move a place that had a four in it.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:40

Wow.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:40

Um, because it's just not good luck. It's just very superstitious about that. For sure. Is three auspicious there though? I don't know. That's a good question. I'm gonna ask her. Yeah, so you have a South Do you have a South Korean aunt? I do, yeah. How does that work? Through marriage. Um, so my uncle uh met her and was actually her TA in college.

SPEAKER_07 1:20:00

Um let's not look too deeply into that one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:03

Wow, yeah, totally dangerous game. Yeah, and she would go to his office hours and she thought it was so cute because he had a picture up. No, this was I mean, they got married in like 1990. So I mean that rules back then.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:15

No rules was the one.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:16

But there was like a picture of me and my brother and my two cousins, like all just like Lil's and she was like, Oh, this is so cute, he's got like kids, and he was like, Those are my kids, like those are those are my nephews.

SPEAKER_05 1:20:27

Like, yeah, I am don't get this wrong.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:29

Um, wow, but yeah, so um she came to the states, she was 18, she came for under uh for undergrad, and then that's where they met.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:39

Wow, interesting. Okay, all the numbers. I love I love Korean thing.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:43

That's uh that's OG, OG crazy.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:46

So good. Let's move into our how eyes is it? This isn't great, but we'll take a little transition.

SPEAKER_06 1:20:51

Transition.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:52

And what is our howways is it?

SPEAKER_07 1:20:54

How wise is it to you were talking about measuring twice and cutting once.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_07 1:21:00

You just introdued it. That was great.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:02

Measure twice, cut once, exactly as Sam said. This is our question. So we're gonna take it both literally and abstractly.

SPEAKER_06 1:21:10

Yeah. The well certainly, you know, what made me think about it was math, which is what we've been talking about. But it was also like I just remember it so vividly of my grandfather telling me it when I was all growing up and being a child, and he was a guy who worked with his hands, and I just feel like guys of his generation just knew how to do everything. Yeah, and he was one of those guys, and he was extremely patient, almost to a fault where my grandma would get mad at him that he wasn't doing projects fast enough. But he was so insistent on like you have to be very careful and you have to be like intentional. And so it was kind of like that. The catchphrase was always like, dude, well, John, you sure you're gonna do that? You're gonna help me with this. Like, measure twice, cut once, no matter what we were doing. We could be digging a hole, and it was like, Measure twice, take a step back here. Is that where you want to dig? Measure twice and then start digging.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:07

So so you think it's wise.

SPEAKER_06 1:22:10

I think that it takes a little spontaneity out of things sometimes if you subscribe to it ultimately. Yeah, and I think sometimes it takes away from like that initial maybe intuition of things if you really like or like, well, maybe maybe like uh you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:27

Well, yeah, we almost have to define measure.

SPEAKER_06 1:22:31

Well, it's not definable, but yeah, what does it mean? Well, we can't define patience, but let's go do it. Let's do it. That's what this podcast says. We don't know, but we're gonna talk about it for two hours.

SPEAKER_07 1:22:41

Well, because like if you're measuring like where to put up a picture, sure, you can get accurate I let a picture sit on my floor for ten months because I was uh too afraid to commit. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:56

Really?

SPEAKER_07 1:22:57

I mean, yeah. Okay. I I think I I think measure twice, cut once is a little intimidating.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:23:03

Cut. I mean, it's very like you can't you can't put it back together. And that's a very scary thing. Yeah. And maybe to measure, I mean, it's good to get it right, but I think the permanence of putting up the picture and not having it be straight in the correct position scared me until a friend came over and was just like, all right, knock this off. We're just gonna put this thing on the wall. Yeah. And you know what? We didn't do it perfectly. There's a big hole in my wall now, but you can't see it because the picture's up. Worry about that later. Yeah. It looks great. I'm grateful that it's on the wall now.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:34

Yeah, it's not perfect, and that's okay.

SPEAKER_07 1:23:36

Yeah. Yeah. So I think we don't put that in there enough, but the cut.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:23:42

The cut is what is it to cut? Oh, we can't put it. Yeah, a lot of things you can't put it back together. And that's if you get a haircut, I mean, but the hair goes back. You can't reattach the hair.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:53

Oh, I mean, I feel the opposite with things like that. Where it's like jump in with both feet, and if you have a shitty haircut, you'll live. Right?

SPEAKER_06 1:24:01

That's yeah, so you're like that's a virtue in my mind. Cut twice, don't measure. Well, you're like, I turn this a don't measure, just cut. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:24:11

You just go in and so funny.

Measure Twice, Cut Once

SPEAKER_02 1:24:12

The last time I went to get a haircut. That doesn't seem like you at all. At all. That's so random. I'm like really pretending I'm someone I'm not. But but I I did go for a haircut. I had cut off like all my hair, and then I went, I saw my hairstylist like maybe two months later, three months later, and he's kind of like, What are you doing here? He's like, I feel like you like your haircut. Like, why are we doing this? And I was like, I don't know. I was like, maybe we'll just like keep going with like doing different things and maybe like make it more layered. And he did it, and I was like, This was a huge mistake, and I still feel that way. But I'm also like, what a great life experience to like have a shitty haircut and live and be like, I hate how this looks, I hate how this looks every single day. Can I like hate how my hair looks and still like love myself and like feel whole? And like you've helped me with me with that because I'll tell you, I'll be like, I have the stupidest haircut on planet earth, and you're like, stop, you're like, let go, it's not that bad. Yeah, and it's like I think in life, it's like I don't want to be afraid to make a bad decision. So, in some ways, I'm glad for this experience, and I'm I'll be eager for this to grow out, but yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:25:23

I think when the measurement becomes the main focus, you might not ever cut then, and you might not ever hang the picture. I mean, you brought up the idea of like dating.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:25:33

So was the measurement giving somebody a second date?

SPEAKER_02 1:25:37

Thank God.

SPEAKER_06 1:25:38

It's giving somebody a second chance.

SPEAKER_07 1:25:40

It's the biggest problem in this generation, the the the dating, people being afraid to to commit. Yeah. Because of the uh seeming abundance that the algorithm provides. But things things were better the old way, where you did just sort of, you know, with abandon, date somebody and get to know them and be vulnerable and and commit.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:26:02

I mean, it it's sort of the constant worrying, is this person right when because you think that there's just another person around the corner, that is just leads us getting shallowness and superficiality in our relationships.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:15

Do you think it's shallowness? Or part of me wonders if it's deeper, if it's like that like vast array of options, like right out the door, lets you avoid anything.

SPEAKER_07 1:26:28

This is why I love therapy. Like, I love the push, I love the pushback. I love you think about it this way. Well, have you thought about that? No, that's exactly right.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:36

With the shallowness, that's in there, but I wonder sometimes if it's like it gives you more permission to do nothing and be vulnerable in no way. I think for me, maybe sometimes that would happen. Like, oh, it's like it's always just right out the door, so like I don't have to do it now. And maybe our parents were like, people out here to get this going. Maybe.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:59

It's like this is this is the pool, right? For a mathematical series.

SPEAKER_07 1:27:03

I mean, for for dating that I mean you may or may not ascribe to. There's one model where um, yeah, I mean, some people call it the secretary problem, but I don't I don't actually know like a non-misogynistic name for this. Yeah, I've heard it as noticed. I've heard it as the porta-potty problem. So imagine you're walking through a line of porta-potties at a music festival. Okay, and you have to pick the porta potty that you're going to use. And for whatever reason, you can't go back to a port-a potty that you reject.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 1:27:32

When do you stop moving down the line? When when do you just sort of accept a porta potty as like being like good enough or like maybe you're ideally looking for the best one? Like you might not have seen it, but when when do you commit? Or we or we say it's explore versus exploit. When do we see and when do we just cash in on the thing that we really like? You might hear to call a multi arm bandit problem. I mean, it's it's really tough, but there's There's maybe some mathematical theories where you sort of say, like, try to see 40% of the pool and then take the best thing that comes along. There's assumptions in that model, but that's like what some people might say in decision theory.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:12

I almost think it's like, I guess I would use whatever data I have with the porta potty. Like if someone came out of one and looked like kind of normal, I would maybe go in that. Aren't you just looking for the one that has the Well, you can't look in them, you're only looking at the outside. No, I'm just looking for the smallest.

SPEAKER_07 1:28:27

You're going like imagine, yeah. I I guess in this idealized situation, like you are moving through them and you have to make a decision with the first one. Am I going to use it or am I going to hop hold out for something better? At what point do you just say, you know what? I made it to the 30th one. It's pretty good. Uh I'm just going to take it. But what if the 30th one is crappy and if you had only waited for the 35th, that you would have been the found the most pristine, most beautiful, unused porta potty. So so the strategy that math might predict under some very rigid assumptions, you you do not go into the first 40.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:29:05

And then you take the best one uh out of what has come up so far. So you're you might miss out on the best one. You might never see something like as great. But you're just sort of just that's sort of the when you see the field, and then it's just it's the same thing with dating. Like, how many people do you really have to date before you understand yourself and what you're looking for in life?

SPEAKER_00 1:29:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:29:27

Do you need to date 80% of the eligible people in your city before you find like the person who comes along is like, wow, this person is who shares my values and is right for me. I didn't make a logical decision to pick Amanda, just you know, right, right, right.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:42

But I bet there are people. Well, I mean, it's almost like Leonardo DiCaprio. It's like, I mean, how many women the exact same woman does he have to date? I mean, I guess maybe he never wants to have to be so young. Exactly. Well, they have to be the exact same age until they're not, and then they're done.

SPEAKER_06 1:29:57

But doesn't that prove he kind of knows what he wants? I'm just playing devil's advocate here.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:03

He actually has what he wants is to never really be like challenged in a long-term relationship.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:08

That's his port-a potty.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:09

And that's what he's picking, and that's his right. Right? Totally.

SPEAKER_06 1:30:13

It's kind of weird. Nobody is not saying that. I'm just saying in his mind, maybe it's like stuff off pod that we could tell you that's even weirder. He's like, you know, listen, this this is my port-a-potty.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:25

Yeah, totally. Well, it's like funny. Like, I wonder if there are people, because it's like the measure twice cut once, like, I definitely didn't take anything even like that into dating. I I mean, I'm a therapist and like always thinking about things in the context of like my relationship with myself. And I and Josh, you and I have talked about this. Like, to me, like when you're ready, the person is revealed. Like, and I always felt like, okay, if I haven't met my person, this hasn't worked out. It's like I, in some way, am not yet ready. I do kind of take that spiritual approach. And I felt ready right before I met you. And people around me told me that. Like, I can sense it, I can feel it. And there were things that were close, and then there was you. And never before I had I ever met someone that I was so like excited about, and even like some kind sometimes like nervous to see, and also felt so unbelievably comfortable with.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:49

So, how many times did you measure?

SPEAKER_02 1:31:52

Well, that's really a great question because it's like the measuring was probably like in your texting. Cause I didn't love the way you texted or the frequency with which you texted. Ooh, that's my own. The lack of the lack of frequency. Yeah. And now, knowing you, there were all these like hidden variables. Like you're incredibly thoughtful with your texts. So you don't just like fire off responses, like you think about them. You're also like incredibly dedicated to your work. So you're not going to be texting all day during a workday. You also had a very different sleeping schedule than I did. Almost opposite in some ways. So yeah, there was like all this stuff that like the internet would tell me, like, he doesn't like you. And that wasn't true.

unknown 1:32:36

Right?

SPEAKER_04 1:32:37

But how I'd probably sometimes be texting you right when I woke up and you thought I had like waited hours to do that.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:41

Yeah, I thought you were like totally making me like suffer. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:47

Well, I was.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:48

So I measured a hundred thousand times, and there would never be too many times for me to measure. It was just like with the right person, you can't really do the wrong thing. Right? And the wrong person, you can't do the right thing.

SPEAKER_07 1:33:01

We're trained to look for red flags. I mean, we're we're not trained to push back on things that we perceive as red flags because they might actually be like when's the last time you told your maybe we should say this more, but like, yeah, there he might just be a very thoughtful texture. Like if he's unresponsive, you might probably just jump to oh, he's just talking to other people or he just doesn't like you that much. It's hard with when dating is like this to to give the other person the benefit of the doubt and to try to build a treat them like they would, you know, if you knew them as a person first. They're just a name with a picture. I mean, until it's hard. Yeah, it's really hard. I met Amanda in person. I I that was the approach that I needed.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:39

Yeah. Sure. I mean, it's interesting. Measure twice cut once. Maybe we don't like it.

SPEAKER_06 1:33:47

Maybe. Maybe it only works for your grandpa. Sawing wood.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:52

Yeah.

unknown 1:33:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:33:53

It does work for sawing wood. Yeah. You know, or sawing other things.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:00

And maybe, maybe I'm very handy. Maybe it's really intentional that it's not like measure three times. It's measure twice.

Dating, Decisions, And Port-a-Potties

SPEAKER_06 1:34:09

Yeah, I mean, I like that too, where it's like you gotta let you gotta do it at some, you just gotta cut, right? So it's like, okay, that's careful. Yeah, that's intentional, and you're not obsessive. Where your example of like now the picture's just sitting there, right? And now I've measured so many different times that now I'm getting lost in the sauce here. Yeah. Where it's like, so yeah, maybe it is intentional that it's two, two and no, which is nice and small. We have warm feelings for two. Yeah. Was two a bitch? No, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:40

Two is small. Two is like small bitch, eight. No, one is a menace, two is sweet, three's kind of a menace, too. Four is great. Oh, five. We missed, I skipped five.

SPEAKER_06 1:34:53

Wow. Five, take five. We already brought up.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:56

I guess I don't like odd numbers. Is that what we're learning?

SPEAKER_06 1:34:59

Well, five is such a number where literally that's like I feel like people just associate that with like a break, like five minutes. Like, that's so like oh wow.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:10

I yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:35:11

Where it's kind of like take five, like take five minutes. Like five is like even in like movies, like that trope of late, like take five, or you know, like it's just so like that's the amount of time. Like, where did that come from? That's the amount of time you need for a break. Like, why isn't that take fifteen?

SPEAKER_02 1:35:26

Right, take ten or anything, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:35:30

Take nine. You hate nine. I've never heard take nine.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:34

You hate nine. I hate eight more than nine. That's wild. It makes no real sense. Eight's two-thirds of a snowman. Yeah, it's not really about how they look, it's like their vibe.

SPEAKER_05 1:35:49

It's their vibe. As if you're talking to your numbers. It just doesn't give me a good vibe. So this is how the public interacts with mathematics.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:57

Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Oh, yeah. I was okay at math. Like, okay, this will be the last thing I say because I know we're over time. I feel like I was really good at geometry randomly, and then I was like fine at the rest. And you were really good at every other math but geometry, right? But physics.

SPEAKER_06 1:36:13

Oh, physics is hard.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:16

It's kind of too abstract.

SPEAKER_06 1:36:17

Physics is hard. Physics is too abstract. I liked geometry too. I feel like having the visual, yeah, was like really useful for me. Totally. And I think I struggled more with learning algebra. It took me a while to like where I was like, great, another letter?

SPEAKER_02 1:36:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:36:34

Ugh.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:35

Totally.

SPEAKER_06 1:36:36

Give me a shape. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:36:37

Give me something to go on.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:38

Give me a personality. Give me something I can touch.

SPEAKER_07 1:36:41

You're like uh the field of algebraic geometry, which under which reveals the underlying geometry behind algebra.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:48

Really?

SPEAKER_07 1:36:49

Maybe that would help me with my it turns out all algebra is geometry. Whoa.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:55

Wow.

SPEAKER_07 1:36:55

But we don't have time to unpack that. That's another episode.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:58

So you think it's interesting that we're both therapists and we both were better at geometry than the other maths. Is that do you think there's something there?

SPEAKER_07 1:37:04

Yeah. I mean, I I mean, spatial un I mean uh so geometry is actually the closest form of mathematics to um to real mathematics that people learn because you're it's actually like logical argument, parsing things, taking stock of things. Like there's a toolbox and you're putting it together in the right way. And it's it's the closest to that developing those logical reasoning and thinking skills, which I can imagine is important in therapy.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:29

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_07 1:37:30

It's the less um sort of just instructive, just following procedure. Algorithm is like less associated with geometry.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:37:38

Oh. Mindful geometry is the most mindful of mathematics in the uh in in L High education.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:47

Wow. Okay, amazing. We'll end on that now, I suppose.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:51

Yeah, I mean, where else can we go?

SPEAKER_06 1:37:53

We can only go down. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:55

Because we're at the people want to like reach out and ask you questions about math.

SPEAKER_07 1:38:05

I I would be down for that. I would be down to have chats. I mean, you can look me up, Sam Friedman. If you do sue Sam Friedman Math, you should be able to find me. We can chat. There's a very famous mathematician, Michael Friedman, who got a Fields Medal that is not related to me. Oh, okay. But he's a genius. You should talk to him probably over there. But if you want if you want to talk to me, you can I'm Sam Friedman.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:30

Have you met him?

SPEAKER_07 1:38:32

I've I've been in the room with him. I didn't introduce myself.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:34

Okay. Wow.

SPEAKER_07 1:38:36

He's a genius.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:37

Wow. That's awesome. Cool. Okay. Thanks so much for being here. Yeah, thank you for being here.

SPEAKER_07 1:38:41

It's awesome to meet you, man. And this is really fun.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:44

It was so fun having you. Well, John, tell us where people can reach you.

SPEAKER_06 1:38:47

Yes. Uh, email me at butsbutz. Jonathan at gmail.com. What about you, Kelly?

SPEAKER_02 1:38:53

If you want to reach me, if you have questions about the pod, if you want to work with me, if you want to suggest topics, um, you can reach me at kkpsychotherapy.com. Send me an inquiry there. And last but not least, Josh E. Our producer.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:07

You can find me at joshbayerfilms.com, Bayer as in the aspirin, and uh I'm a very professional editor. And I'm a genius.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:16

I'm a professional doctor.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:17

They're professional genius.

SPEAKER_07 1:39:18

Say that they're geniuses, of course. Of course. You can edit in my email. It's it's sfriedman67 at New Chicago.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:26

67.

SPEAKER_07 1:39:26

Don't don't get me started on it.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:28

67.

SPEAKER_07 1:39:30

I had it 67 years before it was a meme. Oh, you started. I love it. You started the meme. That's incredible.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:36

Okay, thanks everyone. We'll talk to you next time.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:39

Thanks for the music, blanket phone. Blanketfall, blankets. Thank you, Spindrift. Thank you, Spindrift. Thank you, Spindrift, for the sponsorship.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:48

Wise Mind Happy Hour podcast is for entertainment purposes only, not to be treated as medical advice. If you are struggling with your mental health, please seek medical attention or counseling.