the wild wisdom of EPIPHANIES

As we transition from the Age of Aquarius into the Age of Pisces, what better time is there than now to reflect on what makes us feel spiritually fulfilled? Perhaps we've spent the better part of the decade online shopping, and would be curious to plug more into our career...or perhaps we've decided we HATE board games, and could benefit from giving them a second chance. Pick your poison...nothin' wrong with an epiphany (and the best part is: we don't even need to do anything about it!)

- music by blanket forts -

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:04

Welcome to the Wisemind Happy Hour. I'm Kelly.

SPEAKER_01 0:08

And I'm John.

SPEAKER_02 0:10

Welcome. Thanks for joining us. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 0:13

We're therapists.

SPEAKER_02 0:14

We're therapists. We're here to kind of ponder. What are we here? We're really here to ponder some topics related to mental health, related to self-actualization.

SPEAKER_01 0:28

Our lives.

SPEAKER_02 0:29

Our lives. Some insights. Celeb gossip, some media stuff.

SPEAKER_01 0:35

Question and answer.

SPEAKER_02 0:36

Yeah. Really?

SPEAKER_01 0:38

Celebrity look-alikes.

SPEAKER_02 0:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

I mean, we're here to hang and just chat with you a little bit. Sometimes I feel this urge to, I've mentioned this before, to have to say we're therapists. Because I feel like we don't mention that. Yeah. And then people are like, what are these two people talking about? Right. Right. We do therapists.

The Rental Rush And Deadlines

SPEAKER_02 0:53

Yeah, we are licensed therapists. We both really practice psychotherapy, group psychotherapy. We try. So, you know, that's what we're doing. And we were just discussing, like, because of course we like forget what we do in our lives for the intro until we're like sitting here really racking our brains. But something coming up for me and Josh lately is we're moving, we're leaving our this apartment that we've been filming and recording the podcast in work is not going to be.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

This was the birthplace.

SPEAKER_02 1:27

Yeah, this was the birthplace of the pod.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

And this was the womb.

SPEAKER_02 1:32

Yeah, this was the womb.

SPEAKER_00 1:34

We always record in this womb.

SPEAKER_02 1:36

Yes, we do.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

How long have you lived here?

SPEAKER_02 1:38

We've lived here 20 since 2023.

SPEAKER_00 1:44

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 1:46

Yeah. Summer 2023. Oh. Three years. Yeah, three years. So yeah, like we basically, because we are like going on the journey of like starting a family, hopefully. We need a third bedroom. It's kind of nice to have a third bedroom even if we weren't doing that.

SPEAKER_01 2:05

Oh, for sure. Wait, how long are you going to be here now?

SPEAKER_02 2:08

We'll be here.

SPEAKER_01 2:09

Well, that's I'm going to come here next week and there's going to be a note on the door.

SPEAKER_02 2:12

It's just going to be vacant.

SPEAKER_01 2:13

Um, sorry, Jeff.

SPEAKER_02 2:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:15

We've moved.

SPEAKER_02 2:16

Oh, forgot to tell you. Um, so okay, this is the question. Like, we're getting into the moving game and we're gonna move to another place that we're renting. So it's like the rental moving process is a little bit like urgency central, and I don't love that. You know, because you can't even really look for places. Our lease is up um at the end of June. So July 1st, we have to be in the middle of the year.

SPEAKER_01 2:43

Can you go to a month after that if you need to?

SPEAKER_02 2:46

Um no. I I don't think so because I have lived in this building in a different unit and they didn't let me do that because I tried. Um, and they did show someone this unit the other day. Oh, wow. So yeah, I think um they're really gonna want us out, which is fine. We we need to leave. We need a third bedroom, we need another bathroom. And um well, I shouldn't say need.

SPEAKER_01 3:11

It's like cutthroat, though.

SPEAKER_02 3:13

Well, it's like yes, but it's hard to discern like how fantastical that is to get you to overpay for places. So, like, for example, we found this place. Well, I I kind of reorganized my search for places after I talked to my brother because I was like FaceTiming with his daughters, my nieces, and I was like, you know, Josh and I are moving, and the only reason I was really telling him, not that I don't tell him about my life, but like he's got a lot going on. I don't need to like burden him with like things like me moving apartments in the city, it doesn't really matter, but they're coming that week that we're gonna be moving.

SPEAKER_03 3:50

Okay.

Zip Codes Schools And Family Planning

SPEAKER_02 3:51

So I was like, you know, I can't wait for you guys to come, but like we will be in the middle of like a move, which is like not ideal to seeing the girls. Um, but he was like, that's fine, you know, whatever. And I was like, okay, he's like, where are you moving? And I was like, we're not like moving away, you know, we're moving to another apartment. I'm like, we don't know where yet. Like, we'd love to stay in our area, but you know, if we have to like move to an adjacent area or we find some great place, I don't know, somewhere else, like in the city, we'll we'll do it. And he was like, You don't know where you're moving. He was like, kind of judgmental. I'm like, you forget, like in the rental market, you can't get a place that early. They won't really show you July 1st places, like they won't even be listed yet.

SPEAKER_04 4:35

Right.

SPEAKER_02 4:35

Which we're considering going a month early. We might. Yeah. Um, but he was like, Are you looking at school districts? And I was kind of like, no. So then I started to be like, it's a while before we'd have a child in school, but I was like, we might as well like think about it. Sure. You know, like in case we stayed and wanted to stay in a great place, yeah. Would be nice to be in the zip code where the school is that we'd want. And we really like Ravenswood Elementary. So I I just like searched that zip code, and there were only two rentals in that whole zip code. That were three bed, two bath, and they were actually in the same building. And they hadn't, they had like been listed, you know, like 13 minutes ago. It was one of those where across the street from where we are now, but we're not in the right zip code, and that is, you know, because it's like a whole game of like whatever. So like we toured it, they squeezed us in to tour it. We applied for it before we even toured it. We just got a virtual tour. We were feeling so good about it. I'm already like designing it in my head and mid-century modern. They do totally with some flourishes of other things. But the agent was like, Let me um get on the phone with you too, like at some point today. And I was kind of like, She's not telling us we got it. So she basically said they took like multiple applications. Okay. So she's like, How you can make your application stronger is offer$200 a month more and a two-year lease. And we were already paying for parking, which was$200 a month.

SPEAKER_01 6:10

Do you think that person, let me interrupt you here, calls the other applicant and says, you know what would make a strong case for you if you offer$250 more? That's a real good question. And then the next person, you know, it would make a really good case if you offered three three hundred dollars more. Right.

SPEAKER_02 6:27

Well, it could totally turn into that. So, like, she said that, and we talked about it, and I was like, I've been looking at places since we haven't seen hide nor hair of these people since we applied. So, and like, if we're gonna spend that much, there are bigger places. There was a four-bed for that much. Wow, you know, like so. I'm like, all right, I'm like, so I said to her, I was like, we could offer the two-year lease, but like we're not gonna do the 200. If that counts us out, it counts us out, you know, whatever. She's like, I still think it's a strong offer, you know, whatever. But then she lets me know, she's like, so the parking actually is like oh, it's a weightless situation.

SPEAKER_04 7:04

Oh no.

Stress Of Moving And Adulting

SPEAKER_02 7:05

And I was like, but then she asked, like, would you like to up your offer given that you're no longer getting parking? I'm like, no, I'd like to get parking, is what I like. So I just pulled it then. I was like, no, thanks. You know, like we really do need parking. So that's a no-go. Right, no-go. Um, and she was really nice about it. She said she was gonna help us look for some other places. And I do really like her. I like that she called us and she was like apologetic about the multiple apps. And so, yeah, like that whole situation was like a little interesting. I mean, I will say this, like, of course, now that we didn't get it, I'm like trying to roast the place in my mind. The bedrooms were pretty small. There were three bedrooms, but like they were small. I you know what I really want is like an ensuite bathroom for the primary bedroom.

SPEAKER_01 7:52

It is nice.

SPEAKER_02 7:53

I like a secret bathroom where like your guests never are going in is like really important.

SPEAKER_01 7:59

You've never seen our ensuite.

SPEAKER_02 8:01

No, you can do whatever the hell you want back there.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

Whatever. No one's gonna know. No. I remember when we bought our condo, you go to the showings and then you're seeing other people in there while you're seeing it. Oh, and then it's like, how much do we like this? Do you like it? Do I, you know, you're having like these secret conversations. You see people talking with their realtors outside, you're like, maybe they're putting in an offer. You're really not in a place in that moment of making a very good decision, yeah, yeah, effective decision. Um, yeah, but there is like that anxiety of if you see a place that has a lot that you like, no place is ever gonna be perfect. Right, you already feel like you're behind.

SPEAKER_03 8:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:45

Because you're like, I gotta get the application, I gotta get how much were you approved for, or you know, when it comes to buying at least, and it's just uh I don't miss that anxiety. Now, homeownership is its own other piece, which I was telling you about with our kitchen and everything, but yeah, renting. And you guys, I mean, being in a place for three years, I feel like in Chicago, renting that's kind of a long time. Some people like move every year, every year, every other year.

SPEAKER_02 9:11

I know, and it's like, and that's why I don't think we have to be so attached just yet to that zip code because like by the time we have a kid in school, we we could get in that zip code.

SPEAKER_01 9:22

Don't you think though that people move a lot? Maybe it's every city, but in Chicago because there's so many cool places to live in Chicago and people want to live in cool places. I mean, I love it. I think that's super advantageous to this city, at least, is yeah, moving to different parts. People are open to moving to different parts of it and want to explore it.

SPEAKER_02 9:40

Yeah. I think it's nice. I mean, I was looking because I used to live in Logan Square and I truly loved living there. And um, it's a whole different world too than living on the east side of the city. There's way more parking, I will say. Um I remember some of my friends would come and like hang out in the neighborhood and they were like, and this was years ago. Logan Square is now like popping off, but like when I, you know, not a lot of people were living there at the time. And um I one of my friends who lived in like River North or something was like, I feel like I'm on vacation. Like this part of the city I'm never in the on the west side, um, or like the west neighborhoods. Um, yeah. So I looked at some of those and those are a little bit more reasonably priced. The schools are pretty low-rated. We went to a restaurant in Logan Square on Easter for brunch, and it's like there were kids everywhere. I'm gonna like pull their parents aside and be like, where are these children going to school? What school are they going to do? Like, is it private school? Are they all going to private school?

SPEAKER_01 10:39

Uh yeah, I don't know. Or or maybe magnets. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 10:42

Oh, magnet schools. Like magnet elementary schools.

SPEAKER_01 10:46

Yeah, isn't that right? Or lottery. Is it lottery school? Is that what it is for elementary?

SPEAKER_02 10:50

Yeah, maybe there are.

SPEAKER_01 10:52

Like, I mean, that's where my kids somehow got in to the lottery of it all, which we were fine not sending them there and going to the neighborhood school, but uh, so that was a privilege to have like that. Um it just so happened. But they do bus quote unquote bus kids in from a lot of different zip codes.

SPEAKER_03 11:12

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_01 11:13

Throughout Chicago. Interesting. Okay. School thing's a whole web of lies. It's a web of anxiety, is what it is. Crushing anxiety. I'm trying really hard not to think about high school at all right now. Now Wes is in fifth grade. It's gonna come though quick. You know, and that's a whole nother thing.

SPEAKER_02 11:35

So and they maybe just apply to those like magnets and yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:40

I forget how many you can. There's a certain number you can apply to, and then you rate the ones you want, and then there's like a day where it's almost like med school or something, like where they match you.

SPEAKER_02 11:49

Yeah, yeah. Sounds really daunting. Yeah. Yeah, it's a lot to put on kids. It's just a lot. Yeah. To move is a lot. To move is a lot, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:03

Is this am I remembering this correctly? That moving next to like on the scale of like the most stressful things you experience in your life, moving is pretty much high up there.

SPEAKER_02 12:15

The top three they say are death, like grieving. Yeah, grieving, someone dying, um, divorce, and moving. Yeah, moving. Yeah, it's right up there with two pretty tragic experiences.

SPEAKER_01 12:30

Yeah. Is it wise to move?

SPEAKER_02 12:32

Is it wise to die? It's wise to die.

SPEAKER_01 12:35

Don't ever die or move.

SPEAKER_02 12:38

Yeah, don't move towards die. I'm honestly what's funny is like I'm actually getting kind of excited about it.

SPEAKER_01 12:44

But that's the way to approach it.

SPEAKER_02 12:45

Yeah. I feel excited, and I'm really trying to, like I said to Josh, I'm like giving it up to God. Like, we are going to wind up in the right place. Yeah. And we do have a good amount of time. Like most of the ones being shown now are starting 6-1, and we don't need till 7-1. So that feels good.

SPEAKER_01 13:02

I do miss one thing I do miss about like renting a nice place like this is you probably have somebody that'll take care of stuff for you if it's a problem.

SPEAKER_02 13:12

I mean, will they hop to it?

SPEAKER_01 13:14

No, but they will come. Oh man, with homeownership, it's just like, where do we even start with that?

SPEAKER_02 13:19

Yeah. But you also get someone where, like, if you watch them do the work, you're like, You never done this before, have you? You know, like definitely.

The Home Remodel Brain Freeze

SPEAKER_01 13:27

I'm a little, yeah. It's gonna be interesting because we're we're trying to redo our kitchen. Yeah, like and it's not like it's not like gut, but we're getting new cabinets. It's like more of like a kind of a remodel a little bit. So we're keeping the same layout. Yeah, tell me about the cabinet. This is like when a contractor speaks to me, it's almost as if my brain completely shuts off. And I need them to repeat themselves. Yeah, and then I feel like this person thinks I'm an idiot. Sure. And then I'm thinking that, so then I need them to repeat it like a third time. Because I'm getting so in my head, and the way they talk about it, or the way that sometimes I I hear a contractor talking, it's just they're just talking as if it's like normal.

SPEAKER_02 14:15

Yeah. Like it's your job. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:18

And I'm like, I am so far behind here. I don't get it. I don't understand. Even the emails, I'm like, I can't respond to this yet. I was like, I don't understand what they're asking. So we are the the hope is that we're getting new cabinets, new countertops, a new sink, and then some new appliances. Now all of the things all of the things in our kitchen, our building was built in '99. It's all original, with the exception of we bought a new fridge.

SPEAKER_03 14:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 14:50

The other appliances might have been. I know the stove wasn't replaced, but the the dishwasher may have been. But the cabinets, like a couple months ago, I told you I opened up a cabinet, it fell on my head. Like they're all and the research I did basically said a lot of cabinets at the price point that where the ones we have are were basically designed to pretty much start falling apart after 30 years.

SPEAKER_02 15:13

So we're right like coming up to that point where we're getting in that range. 30 years pretty good.

SPEAKER_01 15:20

Yeah. Yeah. We only got you know six out of it. Yeah. Um, but you're gonna love your new kitchen. Yeah, yeah. Are you doing like a cool color or we're doing blue, we're doing like a dark blue, and we're gonna hopefully do like matte gold, like knobs and and things like that with it. And then we this weekend we're going to a showroom to out in I don't mean Bridgeview. So I think it's by like Oak Lawn, maybe, or I don't know. It's somewhere.

SPEAKER_03 15:49

Yeah, I should know, but I think it's far away.

SPEAKER_01 15:51

We're going to look at some countertops.

SPEAKER_02 15:53

So we don't know like the color of that, but um that will be that will really like inject some like I'm excited for it.

SPEAKER_01 16:00

We need it, we need the freshness, but it's also it's like a lot of things you gotta have line up because the cabinet person who's installing it with the countertops, right? You gotta like get it made.

SPEAKER_03 16:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:12

When will the cabinets be delivered? Where are they gonna sit if they get delivered a couple days early?

SPEAKER_02 16:18

So and construction teams are really run a tight sketch.

SPEAKER_01 16:21

Yes. I mean, thankfully, the person has already come in and looked at it and give us a little bit of a timeline in terms of like ripping things out and getting the new cabinets in, which should take like five to seven days, which is not that bad. I'm more worried about just getting everything out.

SPEAKER_02 16:38

I remember when we remodeled like some of our house when I was younger. It's like I remember my parents constantly complaining about every time they said they would be there, they like wouldn't be there. It was like they were just really bad about that. Yeah. And then years later, we did our basement. We had this guy who showed up 20 minutes early every day and would sit in his truck and drink a Dunkin' Donuts and then walk in, like the when the clock like turned. And I was like, this is the one guy people can rely on. Right. Like, okay.

SPEAKER_01 17:09

You gotta rate those people high on the up. Yeah, definitely. So listen, moving home stuff, yeah, stressful.

SPEAKER_02 17:19

It's stressful on top of just a financial, it changes your finances to like well, and it feels a little like you go in with a budget in mind, but then it's like they're saying things like add 200, do this, you're kind of emotional.

SPEAKER_01 17:32

Oh, that stuff is gonna add up. Yeah, it adds up and because it's always like a ballpark, and you never see a receipt. It's like they tell you what it's gonna cost, but you're not saying what is when you get this cabinet, right? Because I'm getting the receipt from you.

SPEAKER_03 17:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:49

When you get the cabinet, what does that receipt say?

SPEAKER_03 17:51

Right.

SPEAKER_01 17:52

You know, yeah. Anyway, I trust our contractor, I trust you know, who we're working with. Uh, but it is stressful. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:59

Home stuff is stressful. Hopefully, I mean, I know we're gonna find a great place.

SPEAKER_01 18:02

You are gonna find a place, and it's gonna be amazing.

A Personal Epiphany About Joy

SPEAKER_02 18:05

But you're right that like it definitely is a test to of like your sense of like adultness and like you know, like dealing adult. I almost have to like adulting, adulting, yeah. I almost have to like shore myself up where I'm like I can hear like telling myself, like, you're as good a candidate as anyone else who's applying for this, you know. Like I almost have to like positive self-talk if not bad a little bit. Yeah, and yeah, it's it's tricky, but we'll we'll find a great place and y'all will see it on the video eventually, and it'll be so exciting. Well, okay, the other thing, unless is this the epiphany? This is the epiphany. I mentioned this before we recorded. I feel like I'm having like a turning point in my life, and it I don't even know what exactly what like well, okay, it might have partially been this podcast that I've definitely referenced a few times on this pod. It's like a Jungian podcast, so it's like three Jungian analysts therapists will talk about different like Jungian concepts and therapy concepts and stuff. It's a little more um serious, you know, all the way through than ours. Um, and it's very like they talk a lot about like myth and metaphor and like Jung did, and it's interesting. But they had this episode where they because he was Jung was very into astrology as a symbolic language. So like he saw it as like like mythos that is important in understanding like the structure of the psyche, basically. Like, so like because he would talk a lot about collective unconscious and that kind of thing. So it like he interweaved it, he didn't take it literally, it was symbolic, but he talked about like this changing of like which is happening now in astrology, it's like the shifting of the age of Pisces to the age of Aquarius. So, and like the age of Pisces began with like the rise of Christianity, and it's gone all the way until this spring is the shifting into the age of Aquarius, if I'm not mistaken. And it's like they talked about how like anytime they're shifting, like cultural shifting, like that, it's like the shift is very turbulent.

SPEAKER_01 20:16

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 20:17

And they were talking about how, and I was already feeling this, so I think this is why this resonated that like the age of Pisces was a lot about like the fish is like swimming, and like the water is one's sense of like direction, meaning you get your sense of like direction and like almost like morality from these like outside structures and institutions. And there's a lot of this concreteness of like this is good, this is bad. Some outside authority kind of directs me somewhere, and it's a little more collective. The age of Aquarius is like the symbol is more like a person is holding like one vase of good and one vase of evil, and like we have to like hold those. Almost like you have to test your sense of morality and direction by how it feels in the self, how it feels to the wise mind. So you're not looking anymore to outside structures to tell you how to be, how to treat others, how to run your life, where to go. It's something that's more like internal, and you have to really take the time for introspection and reflection. I mean, therapy is like a great thing for this. You have to like become conscious. You can't be like asleep at the wheel to get through this time. And like the shift from one to the other is very like turbulent. And I was thinking about this because I had this like realization. I think this like started with also the appendicitis and the recovery mostly from that, where I had to like sit around. By myself not working. And like I have this sense that what I enjoy, like there's certain things I enjoy, like certain romanticy books. And I mean this for literal, like pleasure. I you know, like online shopping, right? Like or shopping in general. I think that I enjoy this. And I don't really enjoy it. I think I just think I do. Oh. Or even like I think I enjoy like relaxing a lot. Like I think I want to like work a bit, but not sleeve away and do a lot of relaxing. And I think when I do that, I actually feel pretty unhappy. If I'm not like purposeful and driven and focused on something meaningful to me, it's like I don't even mean that it's fulfilling. I literally mean I don't actually even enjoy it as much as I think I do. Or like focusing on like beauty, right? Like doing my makeup. I don't know if you see this as much because you're a man, a straight man, a straight cis man, but there's so much this in the age of the manosphere. This is so confused, but there's all of these voices online talking about, you know, like if you love getting filler, do it. You know, go off, do you kind of like if it makes you happy, yeah, do it. Like spend two hours getting ready, get Botox, get filler, get take GLP ones, like if it makes you happy, and it's like my real question is like, I don't know that it's actually making anybody happy. I think there's like, and I'm having this distorted where it's like pursuing a certain like aesthetic. I think it's like, well, that's my fun online shopping. And like I also can dedicate myself to my work, like, and you know, it's like here's my little fun over here, and here's my work. And it's like, if I'm actually reflective in a true, like open way, I don't really enjoy the shopping as much as I think. Does this come up for you with anything like something you think you like? If you really do it a lot, you're like, I don't like this.

SPEAKER_01 24:29

Is that the epiphany? Well, or is the epiphany that you also have found other things that you actually truly do enjoy?

SPEAKER_02 24:39

Or no, I think the epiphany is like I am sort of like distorted in what act in like there is a little bit of disconnection in like what am really makes me feel joyful. I don't know why I'm attached to like certain things. I mean, shopping is such a good one because it's like I'll do it when I have like a really short amount of time between clients, and I can't really, I think I can't really get any work done. So I'm like, I'll just like check out if they have any new stuff at this place or whatever. And it's like I really think it's like it's fun and I like it. And it's like, do I like it? And I know creative expression does bring me joy, and like clothes can definitely be that. And being dressed in a way that feels like it reflects my like persona, I do find actual value in that. Yeah, but there's something in the way, and maybe it is the way that it is now, and how over consumerist the culture has gotten that is like really bringing this into the foreground for me. That like I don't enjoy chasing an aesthetic.

Minimalism Consumerism And The Male Gaze

SPEAKER_01 25:47

What well, you know, I mean, you know me. I there was a while where I was leaning pretty heavily into like being more minimalist. Yes, yeah. Realizations just about like the things I use, what I consume.

SPEAKER_03 26:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:01

Just even like spatially, like how much stuff I want to have. And does that make me feel uncomfortable? Does it make does it give me comfort, or actually a lot of stuff actually makes me feel uncomfortable sometimes? So I think I leaned very heavily into that. And I think it did at a point kind of tip over into well, now I'm just doing this more as like a badge of of honor or more of like a virtue signaling. I'm doing it more in leaning into telling people more about it than it is for actually me.

SPEAKER_03 26:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:31

So I think I kind of scaled back on that where it was like, yeah, God, this just feels like it's sucking the meaning out of it because it's just now I'm just looking for things to get rid of all the time.

SPEAKER_02 26:41

You know, and I'm not even so my god, but you bring up such a good point. Like you're complicating it in that totally comp overcomplicating it. No, no, I think in a good way, there's something in it that's true, but it's like it develops like a life of its own and then it like removes the true core.

SPEAKER_01 26:59

Yeah, the essence of it was gone.

SPEAKER_02 27:01

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because like obviously, like, since I'm a little girl, I've been like into like how my clothes look. It's like that came from somewhere. My question is like, was it ever pure? I don't know. It because it's like, especially for women, it's like, can you ever divorce it from like the male gaze? Like, probably not. Probably not. So it's like it's so hard. And clothes can have such power. Like, we have, I don't know if I told this on the podcast, probably maybe a long time ago. Like, one morning Josh slept in and I it was like a summer morning. So sometimes I would go for walks, like between clients, and I decided to wear a blazer, and like I like saw two clients, went for a walk. I had early clients, went for a walk, maybe like chatted with my mom on the phone, and then came back, kind of breezed in the door with my blazer, and Josh had a full-blown spiral. He was like, She's like a boss babe, like woman who's like crushing it. I'm just like sleeping and I'm a looser. And I was like, Oh, because of this blazer. And you were like, I think it was the blazer.

SPEAKER_00 28:12

The blazer.

SPEAKER_02 28:13

Like, don't you wasn't that kind of what you thought?

SPEAKER_00 28:16

Well, that was in my stoner days. Let's not forget.

SPEAKER_02 28:19

Totally. Yeah. But and like I'm feeling it, I'm like obviously dramatizing it. I think you were just like, she's wearing a blazer, like she's like busy, she's done some of her work day, and I'm like just waking up. And it like held power. I actually still, even though I'm having this epiphany, I still believe in the blazer. I really do. The power of a blazer, the power of a blazer. A woman in a blazer is everything. But it's really gotten to a place now where I'm like, you, I need to remind myself like this doesn't bring you joy.

SPEAKER_01 28:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:51

I was even like going rampant with this idea. You know how it's like so many of us have this like narrative that like your your 20s are so great. You know, like, and there's even this, like, everyone's trying to get back to like youth, and it's like, you know, 40s, the new 20, and you know, these crazy, like longevity people who are like kind of always trying to be young.

SPEAKER_03 29:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:14

And it's like when I really reflect on my life, it's like I didn't like my 20s more than my 30s for sure. Yeah. Not by a long shot. They were kind of hard. I mean, it's a decade, right?

SPEAKER_01 29:25

There's so much that can happen in a decade. It's a decade. There's gonna be like amazing things, there's gonna be terrible things, there's gonna be hard things and easy things, and there's just gonna be so many things to be like, yeah, be your 40s or your new 20s. Like, well, that doesn't even mean anything. Everything has changed so much.

SPEAKER_02 29:40

Like, yeah, and it's like we're all pursuing to be 20.

SPEAKER_01 29:43

That was 23 years ago for me. Like, that's a long time. Yeah, to be 20 years old, yeah. You know, I wouldn't want to go back to that, but there was some amazing experiences in my 20s, like really life-changing experiences. Yeah, I don't want to go back there, right?

SPEAKER_02 29:58

You know, no, and and it's like the things you think you enjoy or don't enjoy. Yeah, like, is it really true? Because I really have a narrative that it's like I cannot be one of these people that like takes on a lot, you know. Like, I really need to prioritize like rest and self-care and all this. And I'm like, I don't know if I'm quite as like low vibe as that. Like, I actually think when I'm busy, I rise to the occasion and I kind of enjoy it. But I have this narrative of like, I will be so exhausted if I do that. And it's like I actually find myself often like energized by it. Not in every case, but like I think I err so much on like don't overwhelm yourself.

SPEAKER_03 30:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:45

That I'm really not listening to my actual like energy level.

SPEAKER_03 30:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:50

And sometimes like being knocked on your ass by something like a surgery recovery and having to rest so relentlessly, you're like, yeah, this kind of sucks to rest this much. Like it's really boring. I'm also in pain, which sucks. But it's like I keep thinking I need to like really keep the lid on my stuff. And it's like, I think I can take on more and be more all focused on work during work hours without having to like online shop in the middle and get through it and actually enjoy it more than if I keep breaking it up with all these distractions. Yeah. So I'm like, I'm feeling like I don't even know what I like and I want to be like beginner's mind about that. That's great. It's a blank canvas. Totally.

SPEAKER_01 31:36

Like, what do I really think it's always useful to question what we're engaging with, and I think a lot of times it turns into muscle memory and we just engage with it because we've always engaged in it. Yeah. Or it's something we did enjoy, and we still maybe get some enjoyment out of it, but maybe it just has changed.

SPEAKER_03 31:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:56

You know, and and certainly the consumerism, there's so many different examples in my life of it where, you know, take music, for example. I was just compiling music just to like it, it got to the point where I wasn't even listening to albums anymore. It was just more about just like owning them.

SPEAKER_03 32:11

Right.

SPEAKER_01 32:12

You know, like like the actual physical records, like building a record collection.

SPEAKER_02 32:16

Right.

SPEAKER_01 32:17

And then people would ask me, well, what you know, they'd pull out a record, and it's it was more embarrassing than anything because I couldn't even tell them a track from it or something. I didn't really even know it, you know. So it's kind of like it got away from, or even like book. I'm looking at your bookshelf like books. It's like, well, the meaning of books for me, and and this isn't a judgment on anybody, it's just for me, like, is reading them, not owning them.

SPEAKER_04 32:41

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_01 32:42

And that took years for me to get because I always wanted a huge like shelf, like, and I just want books and I want hard, and I, you know, and for years I had that. And then at a certain point, it was it was like, this actually isn't it, it was a thing that was meaningful to me, and it just isn't anymore. And it's like, so you know, that's why like I've gotten so heavily back into the library because it's like, no, I really just value the reading of it and the consuming of a book.

SPEAKER_02 33:08

And what's amazing about the library is like, no, you don't have some like leatherbound bookshelf, but there's community there.

SPEAKER_01 33:16

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 33:17

There's like a rich tradition of like sharing books. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:22

There's also like there's also like some. I mean, I don't want to be like too therapist-y about it, but there's some distress tolerance because sometimes the book you want to read isn't available.

SPEAKER_03 33:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:31

And so you do have to like open yourself up to the idea of like, well, do I just buy it? Or maybe there's something else.

SPEAKER_03 33:38

Right.

SPEAKER_01 33:38

And be open, okay. I'm I'm gonna read this book while I'm waiting, and maybe it's not my first choice, but yeah. So I think definitely with consuming things or how we engage with hobbies, I think always, you know, always, but being open to re-examining like what's our relationship with it, I think can shift the moments of meaning or vitality or joy or however you or happiness with something.

SPEAKER_02 34:03

Well, right, and they do change too. It's like I'm saying like I'm a fraud, which like me noticing it that way does help me because it's like I don't know that I ever was so truly lit up by certain things. I mean, I think I'm even realizing like just how unbelievably like I've internalized like misogyny and objectifying myself, and so many of these things where it's like, do it if it makes you happy. It's like treating yourself like an object will make no one happy. I really in my heart believe know that. And so it's like this argument that, like, you know, like objectifying yourself is somehow a reclaiming, like it's not, like, it's just not. I I really don't think that this like male gazy feminist idea holds much water, and and I just I mean, I'm full of contradiction because it's not like I'm never gonna put on makeup again, but I'm at least really considering like what's really going on here. Like, there may be some actual like misery you're like stepping into every day, yeah, voluntarily. Yeah, it's like the patriarchy does want you to think you like things that you don't like. So you consume for women, so you're small and you don't rise up. You know, for any marginalized group, it's like there's all this voodoo of like you like this, don't you? You like this? And it's like I do think we have to like step back and really be curious. Like, do I feel joy after a day of doing that or two hours of doing that? What do I really notice?

What Actually Feels Nourishing

SPEAKER_01 35:46

Well, and it it's a way to just keep people docile and yeah, consuming things all the time and not really taking a step back and reflecting on other things that are going on in the world. Yes. Because they're just sucked into, well, I need this thing, or how do I get this thing, or these things, or yeah. And then we're not really paying attention as much to other things that are going on. What about cooking though? Don't you find joy in that? Totally. Cook is not coming to this particular reflection. Because that's something you've since I've known you, you've always liked to do. And it's something that does, I feel like, bring you joy. Absolutely. Totally.

SPEAKER_02 36:24

So is that true? I think that is pure. Pure for you. Yeah. I mean, like, even like my dad will say, like, of his three kids, like, who was the one, like when she would eat French fries, she would like savor eating one close her eyes and eat it. That would be me. Like, since I was little, I've really like take pleasure in food.

SPEAKER_01 36:44

Food cooking.

SPEAKER_02 36:45

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I'm I'm like a glutton in a lot of areas of life. And I actually feel a lot of like pride in that. Like, I I do know how to like taste the fruits of life, but I think it then it gets confused by like needing to feel good enough to the outside world. And I confuse that with like what is fulfilling, what is tending to my subjectivity as a person. You know, it's like it gets tangled. And if I do that, it's like I like my life. Like I just like it. It makes me feel whole.

SPEAKER_04 37:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:28

Of course I want that. And it's like, or like today, I meditated after this like long break, and it felt so good. And it felt like all my sessions had this like fuzz around them, and the fuzz was like tuning out every other thought, but what was right there. And I'm like, I know meditating does this for me. And I choose to not do it over and over on a bunch of days. And it's like, why? It's like because I think I like things I don't like, and I think I don't like things I do like. Interesting. Really have to slow down and be more honest with myself. So that's something I'm trying to do. And I'm changing my life.

SPEAKER_01 38:07

That well, it's a lot of fertile ground to explore almost. Yeah, yeah. It is uh an epiphany to think about. Is this truly something that I enjoy or that that's always useful to explore? I I notorious was notorious for, especially with like my college friendship group and you know, guys that I'm still friends with, Tommy being one of them. Tommy knows listening, but notorious of if John doesn't want to do it, he's not gonna do it. Like if it doesn't light him up, he's not gonna do it.

SPEAKER_02 38:37

Yes. Well, that's a gift.

SPEAKER_01 38:39

And so I think I I've had a a sense of like things that are true to me, and and I think it's changed as I've I've gotten older, certainly, but I feel like I've had kind of a pulse on like the things that I know are like, yeah, that's me. And I and I want to do that. But the downside to that is then I I was probably and and still am lean towards being more closed off to things because I think or I have in my mind it's not gonna light me up, or I'm not gonna have an experience with it. And so it's like, no, like because I know myself well. Um, so that's been a practice for me is to be more open to things that might possibly light me up or bring me joy. And even if they don't, that's okay. It's the it's the being open to it that's the muscle I'm building.

SPEAKER_02 39:26

It's a lot of beginners' mind.

SPEAKER_01 39:28

It is. What about games?

SPEAKER_02 39:29

Well, we played two games at Passover bring joy. Those games did, you know, that's another thing where I think I do have a good amount of like distortion around my relationship to it, in my relationship to it. And I think also like there may be a true part of me that doesn't love them.

SPEAKER_01 39:50

When I met Kelly, she said, I don't like games, I'm not a game person. And now every time you guys come over, or we come over here, we force her to play the game.

SPEAKER_02 39:58

Yeah, I get forced.

SPEAKER_01 40:00

We play the game.

SPEAKER_02 40:01

You know what it's like? There are games that'll sneak up on me and be funny. I think sometimes like I will You don't want the forced fun. I don't want forced fun. And I talked about it.

SPEAKER_01 40:09

We talked about this with icebreakers. We talked about this with icebreakers 100%.

SPEAKER_02 40:13

It's like I want to be able to bring up what's been on my mind more kind of like organically.

SPEAKER_00 40:20

Okay, everyone go around and make a fun noise.

SPEAKER_02 40:24

Yeah, yeah, stuff like that. Like, yikes, yikes, yikes. But I'm I'm opening up to games. I mean, I bought Josh Catan for Christmas, right?

SPEAKER_01 40:36

You played uh games at the Hanukkah and Passover, yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:39

So it's like, and those were fun. Like with kids, it is fun. I almost like the games I like the most are like we played a game with my nieces that was truly for kids that are like two years old. What was that game?

SPEAKER_00 40:53

Oh my god. It was like grab the apple or something like honeybee, honeybee.

SPEAKER_02 40:57

Oh, it was like if if you put these cards on their like pieces of fruit or they're animals or whatever, and it's like if you put them down, and like when you get one that was oh oh, if you it's if it's like a a bird or something, like Josh puts down a bird, and then I'm next to him, and I also have a bird, everybody has to like put their hand down. Sure, those are great games. And I think what I loved about it because the girls like didn't really know how to play, like they would be so late to put their hand down. It was like so cute and funny, and like them watching them learn it. I mean, when I watch them like learn things, it's like I feel like I'm in the presence of God. Like it's the most energizing, exciting, inspiring experience, and it's funny and it's fun, it's like the best. So it's almost like the byproduct of the game I can enjoy. But sometimes just like calculate this and do this and win at this thing that you've never played. It's sort of like winning. Ugh. I don't love the competition of it all. But if I were good at it, maybe I would love the competition.

SPEAKER_01 42:02

I don't know. You seem pretty competitive in flip seven.

SPEAKER_02 42:04

Maybe bust again terrible at that game.

SPEAKER_01 42:09

That game is luck.

SPEAKER_02 42:10

There's really no- But then like the people who played did better than me and Josh. So is it luck?

SPEAKER_01 42:15

Yeah, maybe not.

SPEAKER_02 42:16

Yeah, maybe not entirely. There's a little bit of sadness.

SPEAKER_01 42:19

I'm freezing Josh over here. I got the yeah. Um Josh was like, You know what this just made me think of something that I I don't enjoy watching TV as much as other people.

SPEAKER_02 42:32

You don't? Not this is a reveal.

SPEAKER_01 42:34

I don't think it's a reveal. Because you guys always ask me, have you seen this? Have you watched this? And I'm always like, No.

SPEAKER_02 42:40

No, okay.

SPEAKER_01 42:41

And then I write it down, and then I'm like, I'm probably not gonna watch that. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 42:45

Well, you can say, like, I don't really enjoy talking.

SPEAKER_01 42:48

But I think I do want to watch, I do enjoy going to the movies. I like movies, I like film, I like miniseries, but I don't like watching TV is always something where I think I I did like it, and I do, it's not like I hate it. It just doesn't like grip me as much as and when I'm done doing it, I always feel like I've wasted time.

SPEAKER_02 43:10

And more than with a movie.

SPEAKER_01 43:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:13

Does the movie feel more like nourishing or something?

SPEAKER_01 43:17

It does. It also feels like it's a one-time event. I don't have to like watch it tomorrow. It doesn't feel like it's another thing to like check off the list.

SPEAKER_03 43:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:26

It's like, oh, I have this ongoing show, I have to make time for this. It's like a movie is I've set this the time aside, and I know there's gonna be a finish.

SPEAKER_03 43:34

Right.

SPEAKER_01 43:35

And then it's done.

SPEAKER_03 43:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:37

So I do think there are times where I've engaged with TV and been like, I actually don't know how much I'm enjoying either this show or and it could just be the content maybe I was consuming, but yeah, I'm not against it.

SPEAKER_02 43:48

There are certain shows I watch, but I just yeah, is there any show that's like broken through that?

SPEAKER_01 43:52

And you're like I mean, certainly Mad Men was a show that I was pretty captivated by and really liked. I think. I've mentioned before on this podcast, The Americans, which was a spy show on FX.

SPEAKER_02 44:04

Yeah, yeah. Um, did you watch Succession?

SPEAKER_01 44:08

Six Seven. Six Seven Succession. Um, I didn't. No.

SPEAKER_02 44:13

That might, I mean, to me, that hits the madmen sensor.

SPEAKER_01 44:17

Does it?

SPEAKER_02 44:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:19

Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:20

We're watching that new DTF St. Louis, and it's pretty weird. What is that? And we like it. It's like it's it's hard to even explain what it is. There's a bit of a murder mystery in it, but it's like very interesting. It's kind of like experimental a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 44:33

It's definitely stylistically experimental. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:36

It's Jason Bateman. I do like Jason Bateman. Yeah, he's good in it. Um Hopper. Yeah, the guy from Stranger Things.

SPEAKER_00 44:45

Who's the Lily Albert? The Lily Allen. Oh, yeah, Lily Allen's ex.

SPEAKER_02 44:49

She wrote the whole album about him.

SPEAKER_00 44:51

Oh, right.

SPEAKER_02 44:52

But honestly, he's great in the show, I gotta say. He is. I don't I don't really know much about I I haven't listened to that album.

SPEAKER_01 44:59

I don't know anything about either one of them. I knew that they were married, but yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:03

But I I recommend it. But but of course, if you're not into um but that's interesting. Okay, it feels like a waste of time.

SPEAKER_01 45:10

At times, not all the time, but it just I I don't feel good after it.

SPEAKER_02 45:14

Maybe I'm making this up, but it's like if I think about this like shifting landscape, it's like, or even just a shifting landscape for me, it's like could like what's value aligned and what's like pleasurable actually be just like seamlessly converging. And I need to like let it because I was even like some of these romanticy books, it's like you would pretty much put them in the straight pleasure category, like pun intended, but it's like they're silly, so it's like there's just like a story to like follow and get gripped into. But it's like always I I feel like less and less. I'm just like, this is so fucking stupid.

SPEAKER_01 45:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 45:56

And it's like a challenging book. I will say I did start flesh, and it was like kind of making me feel bad inside a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 46:03

I'm pretty sure I said that wasn't a B tree, but um I think roll the tape back on that. I don't think I said anything about that book making anybody feel good. No, I I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 46:15

I could be misremembering, but I think I probably should stick with it because I think there is a lot to be gained in this sense of like knowing myself and knowing the world and like wrestling with this guy and his experiences, but yeah, it's like fucked up and for sure, and yeah, it's like I sometimes like can that can be like I think that I can't get through some of that, but it's funny with my clients, of course I can, and I I feel completely like pretty much unratled by their pain and trauma, but also I'm in this role of of healing them and helping them, so it's like sometimes like reading about like a lot of pain and dysfunction, I can feel kind of depressed. But I do I do think that maybe like what's value aligned and what's pleasurable are getting like they're merging for me, and I need to really let them and let go of the things that I maybe used to think were so fun or so I don't know, important in some way.

SPEAKER_01 47:21

Or even we all should let go of how we think people are gonna view us, right? As what we enjoy.

SPEAKER_02 47:27

Oh my god, that is another thing in the age of Aquarius. Not caring what your neighbor thinks of you, like letting the self, letting the wise mind rule even when it causes you to be disliked. Yes, that's like a big thing. It's a big thing.

SPEAKER_01 47:46

Huge Bramante, it's like the next bright beige.

SPEAKER_02 47:51

Yeah, oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:53

Albert Bramante. I hope he's still listening.

SPEAKER_02 47:55

I know, I hope he does too. I love when he said that thing of it. It's a big thing.

SPEAKER_01 47:59

That's great.

SPEAKER_02 48:01

So we're moving into our how wise is it segment. And this week we're talking about how wise is it to lock yourself out of certain apps. There's a few like ways people go about this these days. One that I just embraced and haven't set up yet, but it's called the brick, where you basically like pick apps you want to be locked out of often during work hours, and you like brick your phone, you like attach it to your phone. It blocks those apps, and then you place the physical brick somewhere like on a high shelf so that you have to like you manually unbrick your phone to get the stuff out. So it has to be this like conscious choice that involves like physical movement, as opposed to some of these apps. I think there's one called screen time where it's like you just like disable it through the phone, right?

SPEAKER_01 48:54

Which is a little too easy, probably. A little too easy. Um, you should give Josh the other the brick, he should keep it from you.

SPEAKER_00 49:04

Keep a hot brick in my pocket.

SPEAKER_02 49:05

Honestly, that's not a bad idea because sometimes you want to collaborate. You could just do it.

SPEAKER_00 49:11

Yeah, I can unbrick you, hit the collab.

SPEAKER_01 49:14

Well, no, I was thinking like instead of a high shelf, like you would actually have to ask him for it, and he'd be like, No, no, no, no, we agreed upon this time.

SPEAKER_00 49:21

Yeah. Because I'm so tough.

SPEAKER_01 49:23

Yeah, tough on the outside, gooey on the inside.

SPEAKER_02 49:26

I'd be so curious what you'd say if I was like immediately like, I need the brick.

SPEAKER_01 49:30

Well, I don't want to cause conflict or controversy. Throw that brick at my head. Yeah, I need that brick. I like the concept of the brick though.

SPEAKER_02 49:38

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, what are your thoughts? You'd heard of it.

SPEAKER_01 49:41

I have heard of it, and I've heard of different versions of it. I think that one sounds like it is it is trying to be a true barrier versus the one that's like on your phone that you could immediately kind of disable yourself.

SPEAKER_03 49:55

Right.

SPEAKER_01 49:55

Um, I mean, not that that doesn't require effort, but I like the idea of something physical that you would require you'd have to put it in a place to get it because it would make you pause longer to think about it.

SPEAKER_03 50:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:08

Full disclosure, I've never engaged in that before. I think it would be interesting even if just to try it out for a while.

SPEAKER_03 50:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:15

And just see what your day looks like.

SPEAKER_03 50:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:18

Because I do think it is useful at times to just leave your phone wherever in another room, put it in a drawer after you get over the initial, like, I lost my phone. Oh no, wait, I didn't lose my phone.

SPEAKER_03 50:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:29

I am more present. Yes, totally. And I'm more engaged typically with the people around me. So I think it would be interesting, especially with this new epiphany you've had about if some of those apps take you to I mean, I'm gonna have to block shop on you know, like yeah, oh yeah. I mean, I'm gonna you're gonna have to yeah, block any internet browser.

SPEAKER_02 50:51

I was like, I think I'll leave open like podcasts.

SPEAKER_01 50:57

Yeah, that's it. Phone app, yeah, technically, news.

SPEAKER_03 51:04

Maybe I'll block that.

SPEAKER_01 51:06

Well, you wouldn't be able to do that on a browser, but you could still do the apps, right? Right. The news apps are just yeah. I say go go off. Go I say go all in on this. Try it out.

SPEAKER_02 51:18

I'm I'm really embracing, I'm excited.

SPEAKER_01 51:20

Because you could also you could always scale back. I say like go big on your first try.

SPEAKER_02 51:25

Yeah, try to like block out almost everything.

SPEAKER_01 51:26

That would just be my yeah, thought on it.

SPEAKER_02 51:29

Yeah, you're right. I should. That's like all the social media, anything. Now, here's the thing is like, of course, I get the brick right when like I'm getting all these Zillow updates of rentals and stuff. Like here comes the excuse making. Well, yes, because I think you do have to be sort of timely. So maybe I start the brick once we get a place. I don't know. I'm already talking about no, but I'm excited about the brick.

SPEAKER_01 51:53

I like it. I think it's wise to try something like that, even if it's just an experiment in how we relate to our phones. I think it's super wise.

SPEAKER_03 52:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:02

And it makes me even just want to try something different with my phone. I don't know what that is, but yeah, I get sick of my phone. I really do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:10

Same, same. And then I'm going back to it's the same thing. You think you enjoy scrolling, and it's like the physical activeness of scrolling is like miserable.

SPEAKER_01 52:18

I just hate it.

SPEAKER_02 52:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:20

You know what I really want? Actually, this makes me think that I just want an old iPod. Yeah. Play music. To play music. That's all I want is just an iPod.

SPEAKER_02 52:30

But that, but you can't make calls.

SPEAKER_01 52:32

On my iPod? Thanks for the clarification. That's what I want.

SPEAKER_02 52:37

Would you get an iPod plus like flip phone?

SPEAKER_01 52:40

I guess what I'm saying is I just want an iPod so that when I at certain times when I leave my house, I just take my iPod. And my phone is just yeah, I don't want my phone to have all my music on it. And you know, I need a cassette tape deck. Yeah. I need a Walkman.

SPEAKER_02 52:56

But as a parent, does it freak you out to not be reachable by your kids?

SPEAKER_01 53:00

Sure, but if they're with Sarah, no.

SPEAKER_02 53:01

No. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:03

Or even when I'm, you know, at their school and they're playing on the playground, right? Like, yeah, I'm with them. Yeah. What do I need my phone for?

SPEAKER_03 53:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:11

So it's like just listen to my music if I'm walking around or if I'm playing with them. Like, you know, I don't need my phone.

SPEAKER_02 53:17

Right.

SPEAKER_01 53:17

I don't know. It's just getting me. I'm spitballing here.

Phones Reachability And Old Tech Nostalgia

SPEAKER_02 53:20

I like it. I mean, obviously.

SPEAKER_01 53:21

I like that you thought that I was going to get rid of my phone and just have an iPod.

SPEAKER_02 53:25

I'm just not going to get any calls.

SPEAKER_01 53:27

That's all you'll contact me. And I'll try to interpret what the song is and try to communicate.

SPEAKER_02 53:33

Yeah. Well, I remember in college, like, oh God, stuff like this does really date me. I remember in college, my roommate, shout out to Allison. I guarantee I got you beat here. Whatever you're going to say about a date. Like her dad didn't have a cell phone when we were in college. So like he I remember he like picked up some of her stuff and he was taking like a load of her stuff moving home. You know, he drove halfway down the block. She's like, Oh my God, you forgot one major thing. She's like, I couldn't reach him. I couldn't call him. He drove all the way five hours to Chicago without like this essential thing he needed. And I was like, Well, shouldn't have a cell phone. Like, that was the time where it was sort of like, that's dumb. But I mean, he just simply did not have one. He had four kids.

SPEAKER_01 54:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:17

Didn't have a cell phone. Wasn't reachable. Like, if they're hurt, they will figure it out. They'll call mom.

SPEAKER_01 54:23

God bless that guy.

SPEAKER_02 54:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:25

Good for him.

SPEAKER_02 54:26

Good for him. I mean, yeah, I'm sure there was like definitely a peace of mind there.

SPEAKER_01 54:31

We had room phones, V Tech, cell phones. Whoa. Or not cell phones, uh like with a cord. Cordless.

SPEAKER_02 54:39

Cordless.

SPEAKER_01 54:40

We had corded phones in our dorm rooms as well. And you'd get it was called we called it the dial, which was basically just the school phone book of every other like dorm and the and but my freshman year I had a really old, like everybody had that Nokia one.

SPEAKER_03 54:56

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:57

I had that. Just for like emergency purposes or thing. I didn't carry it around, didn't use it for anything.

SPEAKER_02 55:04

You would like call your parents on it, or sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 55:06

Yeah. Yep. But that would be about it. And then what year would this have been? This would have been 2000 into 2001.

SPEAKER_02 55:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 55:14

The main form of communication would have been AOL, instant messenger. Yes. So that's how people knew where you were, because you would leave your you know, your little instant message up about I'm at this place, or if you want to find I'm studying in the library, or and then that's how people found you. And if they didn't find you, they were.

SPEAKER_02 55:32

You made us into the fastest typers in the West.

SPEAKER_01 55:34

It was like, that's it. I'm off to the cafeteria. It was like, okay, well, maybe I'll see him there.

SPEAKER_02 55:39

So oh, there's something so romantic about just like, we'll see if we can cross paths. Cross paths.

SPEAKER_01 55:45

Yeah. Or like, I was looking for you. Like, where were you? I thought you were here. You just didn't, you missed that person. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 55:52

There is something real nostalgic. We're way too reachable. We are way too reachable.

SPEAKER_01 55:57

Way too reachable.

SPEAKER_02 55:58

It's like, I do not want everyone to be able to get to me all the time.

SPEAKER_01 56:04

And you know what it turns into sometimes with kids, especially, is it turns into the plan shifts so many times where it's like, we had this play date, and then this person's this person's available. Do we want to squeeze that in later? And do we want, you know, and and sometimes that works out really well. Sometimes it's like you don't have a lot of plans and you are reachable, and then you kind of shift very quickly. Sometimes, though, it just turns into too much communication with other parents, and you're trying to shoehorn in something, and it just isn't it for me, it just is like, oh, if I didn't have if I hadn't checked the phone, yeah, right. Or if I didn't have it on me, instead of just we're already out enjoying this thing, it's like now I I have to deal with another issue or another, you know.

SPEAKER_02 56:47

So yeah, it's like being that reachable, it's like you can change everything constant, and you're trying too much to like optimize and right. You wind up feeling more miserable, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:58

Yeah, that's that's why vacation is such a breath of fresh air for a lot of reasons, because it's like you can't, yeah. It's if you're away, yeah, it's like, well, this is our plan for the day, this is what we're gonna do. And typically you kind of just do that, yeah. Because it's like people aren't telling you, oh, we're doing this. Can you come and meet it? It's like, I can't meet you. We're we're gone. I'm gone. The brick though.

SPEAKER_02 57:19

Yeah. I mean, I'm I'm excited too. I think I mean, do you think it's wise? I think having not used it, so wise, even though I haven't used it. Well, what are you gonna gain out of it? I really think I'm I need the barrier, like, because I will just like open up apps after one second after I've told Josh, like, I gotta be off my phone. And I also like here here's like you know, the body keeps the score. My neck has been hurting so bad. It's just like it's like I'm I'm sitting in this chair, neck down, like on my phone. And it's not to the point where I can't really read my Kindle because I'm kind of leaning it down the same way, and it's it's too painful. So what it's like I said to Josh, I was like, because I've been so bad with my phone, my body has taken away my Kindle. Yeah. Like I'm really like, I'm getting all these signs from the universe of like, you cannot keep living this way. It's misery. So I'm going to brick so many apps, and hopefully, like when I'm between sessions, you know, I'm like, I'm reading emails, you know, I'm doing I'm charting. I kind of chart right after the session. So like I don't need to like set aside that much time for charting, but it's like I'm staying in the focus and mindset of I'm meditating, I'm whatever. I'm staying in the mindset of like my clinical world until the day is over. And, you know, it doesn't mean I can't like throw in a load of laundry or whatever, but I really am present to the work material. I need to kind of stay in that. Yeah. And you know, it'll be brilliant if there isn't enough material for like an eight-hour day, because then I can take more things on that are fulfilling, which I do. That is a goal of mine. To I think I might want to get EMDR certified or join some kind of like fellowship or something to really like be a little more engaged in the community. I have this dream of starting a feminist book club, which if anyone out there would be interested in that, please reach out. I would love that and I would host it. And it would be a reading club even. We could read articles, it wouldn't have to be whole books the whole time.

SPEAKER_01 59:31

Silly question. Are men invited?

SPEAKER_02 59:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 59:34

Absolutely, men are invited. Totally. Male feminists, female feminists, trying to make sure feminists, not binary feminists, everyone. So yeah, you know, I want to do more stuff that is like truly aligned. And I do think I find those things like pleasurable too.

SPEAKER_01 59:56

The brick might breathe a springboard into that.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:00

I think it's going to be a less is more situation.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:03

Well, I'm excited to hear how wise it is.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:05

Yeah. Yeah, I'll keep everyone updated.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:08

But I think it's just wise to explore. We well, we talk about this in a lot of different ways, just our relationship with technology. Yeah. I think that's always wise to be questioning.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:18

Yes, I think so too.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:20

I was tossing around the idea, which I might not live to tell the tale, but I was tossing around the idea of doing like a a week, you know, of no technology in my house or very limited technology. We're either doing games, we're doing books, we're doing analog.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:41

Yeah.

A One Week Low Tech Cleanse

SPEAKER_01 1:00:42

Like for a week. So I was thinking of tossing that and and putting the kids on that. Oh, for sure. Not just me. Like it would be a family engagement of it's kind of fun. I know. I I get excited thinking about it, and I know nobody's gonna be on board with it, but I haven't floated the idea. I shouldn't say that. I don't know. But yeah, just a there's an insert, yeah, totally. A little that's why I said you might not, I might not live. Um, I'm tied up somewhere.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:13

I could see your boys being like, wow, dad.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:16

Oh yeah. Oh, a hundred percent, which would a kid wouldn't do that, right? Totally. Oh my gosh. So I was thinking just a cleanse for a week, yeah, like low to no tech. Let's do it. Let's see what happens.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:30

Someone I now I can't remember where I heard this, but of course it was on a podcast. But someone said they had all these like epiphanies they'd never had and like creative ideas when they were like, oh, oh my god, it was in oh my god, this wasn't on a podcast, this was in a movie. I think it was in before sunset. She was living in a place where she didn't really speak the native language, so she couldn't really watch TV, she couldn't really do a bunch of different things. So, like, she was really kind of quiet in her mind a lot, and then had all this like inspiration after like a week of that. Yeah. Kind of cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:07

I could see like my kids being like, uh, this is like we're grounded, but we didn't do anything.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:12

Like, yeah. Or they're just like, can't wait to get back.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:16

You're grounding us, right? Yeah, like every every moment instead of like trying to just like get through it in in a way that would be fun and would just be like suffering.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:25

But there's a difference between them recognizing the value of it and their being value in it. Yeah, you know, like I think at that age I probably wouldn't be able to recognize it, but there's value in it.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:36

Yeah. I think they're gonna be emotionally grounded. Yeah, you're gonna emotionally ground them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:43

Grounded like you're grounded, or like grounded.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:46

That's my joke here. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:49

Double meaning. Sorry, I totally agree. Touche. Um maybe I'll just do it for myself. Maybe I'll do a cleanse for a week. I like that. Would Sarah do it with you? I don't know. I haven't approached it with her. I think it would be hard. She listens to, you know, she's very up on politics, and so you know, she listens to some podcasts and politics is happening. Pod Save America.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:13

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:14

Um, is definitely up there. So, you know, I think just keeping current and things like that, but you know, she could buy a paper, I guess. I don't, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:23

She could spend a week. A week without it, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:27

Totally. I think she'd be willing to entertain the idea.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:31

Yeah. Or she could task like her sister with like if you hear something like major, then it really should know.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:37

Or even if she was willing to do it when the kids were aw awake, and then, you know, when they're asleep, it's like, okay, like listen to your pot, or you know, that type of thing. And not that we're kind of cheating the system, but um yeah. Analog.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:53

Analog. I like it. Well, okay, we'll see what happens. We'll see what happens. I can't wait to hear about the brick. Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:59

Does it look like a brick?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:00

It's like a square.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:02

But did they like paint it like brick red and like gray? They really missed an opportunity. They really missed an opportunity, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:11

You know those gray stones? It's like maybe like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:14

No. Brick red. I mean, come on.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:17

Yeah. Yeah, it's really just a cinder.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:20

Or like a cinder, it looks like a cinder block or something.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:22

Yeah, it kind of looks like a cinder block.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:24

There you go. Then I I'm back on board.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:25

The block, they should have called it.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:27

The block.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:28

You think it's like brick, like when you brick a basketball shot?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:32

Yeah, there's a lot of ways to interpret brick.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:35

But that doesn't even totally line right. Because bricking is just like a bad shot.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:40

Yeah, it's like you It's not blocking. No, no, no, no. A brick is when, yeah, you miss it, it hits the rim and comes off it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:48

Maybe it's like a brick wall, is really what they're saying.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:51

It is a brick wall.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:52

Totally.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:53

Yeah. We figured it out.

How To Reach Us And Closing

SPEAKER_02 1:04:55

We figured it out. Okay, that's that's our episode. Thank you so much, everyone, for joining us.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:59

Thank you, everyone. You can find me at butzbutz. Jonathan at gmail.com. Or can they find you?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:06

They can find me at kkpsychotherapy.com. You can send me an inquiry there. Um yeah, for anything. You've got to work with me if you want to join the book club. Join the book club. Anything at all, please reach me there. How about you, Josh?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:24

You can find me at Jr. Bayer, B-A-Y-E-R like the Aspirin, 89 at gmail.com. I will service all your editing needs. And if you'd like to be on the pod, if that's a need of yours, we can make that happen. Love it. Thank you. I'd also I'd also like to shout out the Angine Des Point Pliny album, volume two. It's some kind of French. They wear I don't even I don't know the racial identity or the gender of like it's these two anonymous people. Yeah. They wear these like Crazy masks that are kind of uh creepy, like Cirque de Soleil looking. And they play this kind of crazy, like it's like Kruang bin meets Jack White, but it's mostly instrumental. Could you repeat the artists? It's Angine De Pointe. A N G I N E space. That's incredible. D-E space. P-O-I-T-R-I-N-E space. The album is called. This isn't gonna help you either. The album is called Volume 2.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:33

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:34

Volume 2. That's fun. Listen to it.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:37

Yeah, listen to it.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:39

And also listen to Blanket Forts. Thank you so much for the music. Always.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:44

Thank you. And we'll catch you next time.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:46

Catch you later. Later. Bye.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:49

The Wisemind Happy Hour podcast is for entertainment purposes only, not to be treated as medical advice. If you are struggling with your mental health, please seek medical attention or counseling.