💔 BAD MARRIAGE ADVICE 💔 (feat. Monica Tanner)

Don't go to bed angry. Don't marry someone who's "moody." "If they love us enough, they'll JUST KNOW." These little nuggets of marriage advice are so ingrained in our brains that many of us take them for the gospel...but what if we debunk these myths? Relationship coach Monica Tanner unravels some of these cliches, and helps us get to the bottom of what actually makes a marriage strong and lasting.

www.monicatanner.com

💿 music by blanket forts 💿

Transcript

Brick Update And App Blocking

SPEAKER_03 0:04

Welcome to Host Right in Happy Hour. I'm Kelly.

SPEAKER_05 0:09

And I'm John.

unknown 0:11

Welcome.

SPEAKER_05 0:11

Welcome. Everyone. Now we're gonna we're just gonna get right into it. If you listened to us last week, we talked about the brick.

SPEAKER_03 0:19

We did talk about the brick.

SPEAKER_05 0:20

And I can't wait another moment before we process this because we have not talked about this at all before getting onto the pod. So we need an update about the brick.

SPEAKER_03 0:30

Yeah. So full disclosure, I have only been bricked up for one day.

SPEAKER_05 0:37

That's but that's one more day than you had done previously. Yeah. Because you had just purchased the brick. Now remind people what the brick is.

SPEAKER_03 0:44

So the brick is this device that helps you block apps on your phone for whatever like period you set it for. I basically now have it set for, I think, on the weekdays, 7 a.m. I mean, you can like brick at any time, but 7 a.m. to whenever I decide to unbrick. And the difference with the brick compared to like just the screen time app on your phone or like anything like that, is you have to use the physical like block, the physical brick. Yes. Which is this little square that they sent you in the mail that you kind of tap at the top of your phone. And then you put it somewhere. I did give it to Josh, like you recommended. I did. So Josh has the brick. So so he can open up my phone and use Instagram to post our um clips and stuff for the pod. But and it is nice to have it like locked away, kind of in his area. Um, but I blocked a bunch of apps today. And you know what's really nice about the brick? It doesn't just block apps, like it will block websites, and it kind of like it asks you basically like what are the categories of things in your life you want to block. And then it kind of guesses the websites as well as the apps. Oh like I looked and I was like, oh my god, they picked like everywhere I kind of normally shop, they blocked all these things they blocked. I was like, hell yeah, I didn't have to like individually type those in. So it was amazing. So it's like it knows your style, it knows my style, it knows where you're going. One, it's like, okay, yeah, we get it. This is a problem. We get it made well, ex literally, like made well, Zara, whatever it's uh, you know, Nordstrom's Quinn's, sure, yeah. Ever later.

SPEAKER_05 2:29

Like any shopping site.

SPEAKER_03 2:30

I mean, literally any shopping site.

SPEAKER_05 2:33

So, what was this like?

SPEAKER_03 2:34

It was wonderful. Really? I really think I'm hooked on it. Because when Josh did open unbrick it, and then for a second, Instagram was open, I was just saying, I opened Instagram and there was something kind of like triggering, and I just like cut out of it. I'm like, I'm re-bricking it again. Like, I'm I just don't need that like noise during the day. Wow. I really want to be focused and not even just, I just enjoy being really like dialed in to work during the work hours. Even if I'm not seeing a client and don't actively have any like admin I have to get done, I want to be going over the trainings I'm in the middle of. I'm kind of always in the middle of like some kind of training, like virtual training, or reading, you know, EMDR material, you know, going through old case files, like which I will do, you know, like staying or listening to podcasts that, you know, of other therapists, getting like in the zone of the clinical headspace, I really enjoy. And I didn't have any of the noise of like, what are people doing on social media? What things I want to buy.

SPEAKER_05 3:45

Did you miss it?

SPEAKER_03 3:46

No.

unknown 3:47

Interesting.

SPEAKER_03 3:48

I this is the thing where I'm like having this turning point. It's like, I think I want to be engaged with this stuff, and it makes me feel worse. Worse. It's reached a critical mass where it's like, I do not feel good, like being so aware of what everyone else is doing at any given point. Or even it's like something that's overwhelming is like the like advice you get on social media and all this stuff, and how how social media instantly knows like the things you're going through in your life and like tries to sell you things in that arena. It's like I don't need all that consumerous noise. Like, I don't need any of that. And it's not like I'm never gonna shop. Like, I'm gonna shop, but it's like, can it be after clinical hours or on the weekend? And more intentional, maybe more intentional. And really on the weekend, it's like it's not like I want to be sitting on my phone shopping on the weekend either. So it really reduces the time I'm just like scrolling and consuming in my mind.

SPEAKER_05 4:49

It'd be interesting if there was some sort of like analysis you could do like six months from now if you really stuck to this to see if you spent less money.

SPEAKER_03 4:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 4:57

Which could be a byproduct of a lot of things. There are a lot of variables there, but if you're on your phone less, you might be spending less money.

SPEAKER_03 5:02

I bet you I bet you any money that it will be less.

SPEAKER_05 5:06

Any amount of money. Now, wait, now here's what I will say about this. And I don't think I'm I don't know. I think I I'm hitting this on the nose. I will say when you start something, whatever it is.

SPEAKER_02 5:20

Some feedback's coming.

SPEAKER_05 5:22

You get a little obsessed after about one second of it. So that can be a new coffee drink, that could be a new pair of shoes.

SPEAKER_02 5:30

Yeah, I'm changing my life every two weeks.

SPEAKER_05 5:33

It could be a new show. This, John, this the pit. There's never gonna be TV after this.

SPEAKER_04 5:38

This is the best show you've ever seen.

SPEAKER_03 5:40

Like what is that personality type? Because I have it.

SPEAKER_05 5:43

But I love it because you're so enthused and excited about it. So I love that about you, and I always want to hear about well, what about day seven? Let's see where Kelly's at. Because I think or more like day 200. Then the blooms off rose a little bit, and I think it's a little, but I love the excitement.

SPEAKER_03 5:59

Well, honestly, this was so wonderful.

SPEAKER_05 6:04

That's great.

Minimalism Through Removing Digital Noise

SPEAKER_03 6:04

And I and like it's interesting because it's the absence of something, which is sort of new for me. Removal of something.

SPEAKER_05 6:16

Oh, that just made me think of something.

SPEAKER_03 6:18

Yeah, tell us that's okay.

SPEAKER_05 6:20

No, it made me think of this idea, and and it gets back to were we talking about minimalism? Yeah. I was kind of going through that epiphany of like thinking that I needed to get rid of stuff. Yeah. And one thing that really resonated with me was this idea of there are these moments where we realize that maybe the stripping away is actually going to be more meaningful. It's the absence of certain things that are really gonna get us into that zone of whatever it is meaning, vitality, all the things. Yeah, totally. That's just kind of what it made me think of.

SPEAKER_03 6:53

Yeah, and I think you're right, like to take away things and feel my own like presence really does feel good. And I think what is gonna help me maybe keep it up, is the fact that it's not like, oh, I have to do this for 20 minutes a day. It's like I'm literally just like clicking this thing on my phone, yeah, and then all this stuff is gone, and I have more like spaciousness. And yeah, I definitely felt more like in my flow, more present. I think my sessions, like, I just felt so in the flow with them. It didn't feel effortful, it felt more organic, which does happen when I and I did meditate today too. But you know, it's like I really had the space for that because I wasn't like scrolling.

SPEAKER_05 7:40

You weren't on your phone, like there was more time. And last episode, you just said, Why am I not meditating? I know that that's useful for me. So no, you're doing it.

SPEAKER_03 7:49

I'm doing it, even if it's the first day, it's the first day, it's the first day of the rest of my life. I'm really excited about it. So, yeah, that's one thing that's going on with me. But what about you?

SPEAKER_05 8:01

I saw the Mario movie.

SPEAKER_03 8:03

Oh, wait, there's a Mario.

SPEAKER_05 8:05

There's a new Mario movie out, yeah. Josh, you didn't know this?

SPEAKER_06 8:08

Is this Mario 3?

SPEAKER_05 8:09

I think it's two.

SPEAKER_03 8:11

Super Mario?

SPEAKER_05 8:13

Yeah, it's like uh Mario. I went, we took uh Shane and one of his friends to the movies on Friday. What's the friend's name? Rose. Rose, oh Shane and Rose. It was great. We went to the theater, and you know what I always see other families bring because movie theaters are usually cold, they bring blankets. Wow. And I was like, I want to bring blankets for these kids. Yeah. And so we brought blankets and we sat there, we got cozy. Movie was great. We got some uh icy, slurpees, some blue eyes.

SPEAKER_03 8:46

Oh, nice.

SPEAKER_05 8:47

Um, but it was just like, oh, this is like kind of like nice. It's almost like you're in like somebody's basement. But what was really funny is the kids are there, and we're and all of a sudden this random kid comes up who ends up not being random. He's just like, Shane? And Shane's like, Harrison? And so it was another kid from his school. But the best thing was he goes, What are you doing here?

SPEAKER_03 9:11

Like, oh, so cute.

Movies With Kids And Cozy Rituals

SPEAKER_05 9:13

It's like me. Yeah, it's like, what are you doing here? But almost in like uh this was my theater, like well, kids like have such a funny like schema around of where people are. Where people are like teachers, or yeah, it's like he couldn't even fathom that another friend would just randomly be there.

SPEAKER_03 9:35

Right, you know, totally like what of this friend is a school friend, he's lives inside school, right?

SPEAKER_05 9:40

He did I only see them at certain hours, so uh yeah. So we ended up doing that, and while we were doing that, um, my oldest son Wes, he was he was out with some of his friends and he ended up going fishing with his buddies. Wes was a little bit hesitant about it because I think he was like, I don't know how to fish, I don't, you know, we're not that type of family. I'm not like really outdoorsy at all. So, but they ended up all catching like multiple fish. What kind of fish? Like bass and bluegills, like you know, pretty small stuff, but still the fact that like on your first experience doing it, and and he couldn't have talked about it more when he got home. Oh, that's great. It's like, no, see, like you can be a little bit trepidatious about something that's fun and stuff and just have such a great experience doing it.

SPEAKER_03 10:28

Yeah, totally. Yeah, fishing, and fishing really it's what's so cool about it, is it's not like oh, I'm gonna like learn this thing, and it's like this big dramatic, it's sort of like teaching that stillness, yes, and patience, which I I appreciate.

SPEAKER_05 10:43

And and also it's so process-driven because you don't know the outcome. It's kind of like you can only control what you can control, right? You kind of like cast and then you kind of like see what happens, right?

Fishing Lessons And Nature Nostalgia

SPEAKER_03 10:54

So it's like obviously we've chosen to live in Chicago, and I love living in a city. I really I think I am like a city mouse or whatever, but I do like if this especially comes up if I watch certain movies. Like, um, did you watch that movie that came out recently? Um Oh my old ass. No. With um it's with Aubrey Plaza. Okay, and then this is hilarious. Yeah, she's great. And this younger actress that like basically like Aubrey Plaza is like the later version of the main character that she like contacts on like a mushroom trip or something, and then they're like in communication and she's kind of guiding her on how to like live better than she lived at that age. I like that, and the younger actress is great too. Um, they don't really look alike, but anyway, I guess that doesn't really matter, but um it's set in I think it's in Canada on like a cranberry farm. Oh like her family owns a cranberry farm, like a like bogs, yeah. So it's like very like outdoorsy and like they're always like on a lake or kind of fishing or doing the cranberry farming or all this stuff, and like their friends they meet up, like they're they're cool young, like high school kids who are talking about like hooking up and whatever, but all in this setting of like you're sitting on a pier with your friend or you're like whatever. And I'm like, man, it's like oh, I a part of me is sad that like likely, like God bless I have a child, like they won't have that, like sitting on a pier with their friends where I don't even know where they are. Like, there's something so charming in those like country or like small town experiences where kids are like kicking around a tire or whatever. Yeah, it's like city kids, it's like there's so much like danger that you have to like you can't just let them like loose in nature.

SPEAKER_05 12:52

Yeah, there is some nostalgia almost like nostalgia for something that's yeah, even if you didn't have it, like there's something yeah, I don't know, simpler, innocent, but also just even being in nature. I always find that so energizing. Yeah, especially just around like nature that was that's just so much bigger than you, yeah. Kind of puts you in your place a little bit.

SPEAKER_03 13:18

Oh, especially if I'm going through a hard time, like to really just like see the vastness of nature.

SPEAKER_05 13:25

We got pockets of it around in the city.

SPEAKER_03 13:27

There's pockets, and you kind of have to prioritize it.

SPEAKER_05 13:29

Yeah, and you gotta look for it. Right. It's there though, or maybe it's like somehow a lot of kids go to camp for a couple weeks. Did you ever do that?

SPEAKER_06 13:39

Camp? Like camp for the whole summer? Oh, I went to camp. Oh, yeah. Whole summer.

SPEAKER_03 13:46

You hated it, right?

SPEAKER_06 13:47

No, I didn't hate it. I I my first year I cried every night. I'm from Michigan, the boondocks.

SPEAKER_02 13:53

Yeah, it's true. You are from Michigan.

SPEAKER_06 13:54

I've been on the dock.

SPEAKER_05 13:55

A lot of good nature in Michigan. Yeah. Well, I'm from Wisconsin. A lot of lakes are in Wisconsin, and and it's pretty accessible.

SPEAKER_03 14:02

Um, I'm like picturing a little bit like yeah, you're running around after school doing this stuff.

SPEAKER_06 14:09

Nah. Like a little kicking around the tire. Kicking around the tire.

SPEAKER_03 14:14

Yeah, like that. What do you think is Huck Finn? What's going on over here?

SPEAKER_05 14:18

Mark Twain?

SPEAKER_03 14:19

Well, I remember in Teka Mockingbird, like Jem.

SPEAKER_04 14:22

Oh, Jem, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:23

Jem and um Dill. You know, the main character.

SPEAKER_04 14:28

Atticus. Well, Atticus is the lawyer, the dad. Atticus. Scout. Scout.

SPEAKER_03 14:33

Scout. Scout and Jem, right?

SPEAKER_04 14:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:37

Are like playing and like he puts her inside of a tire and like rolls her down the street. And I'm like, oh wow, that's so like cute. Like the dad doesn't even know where they are, and they're just like kids like hanging around. It's so sweet.

SPEAKER_05 14:51

And I think that's isn't that the description on the book jacket of Kill a Mockingbird? Cute.

SPEAKER_03 14:56

Cute. So cute.

SPEAKER_05 14:57

It's a cute story.

SPEAKER_03 14:58

It's like a cute read.

SPEAKER_05 14:59

Yeah. Kill a mocking bird.

SPEAKER_03 15:01

Boo Radley. I love it. Hashtag icon.

SPEAKER_05 15:04

I went to undergrad in a pretty small kind of town. And there's definitely a cool feel to it. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:10

Yeah, what's the town again?

SPEAKER_05 15:11

It's De Pere, Wisconsin, which is outside of Green Bay, which is not a big city at all, but it definitely kind of had a okay. Here's Main Street, and then there's like not much else.

SPEAKER_03 15:25

I love a town that has a main street.

SPEAKER_05 15:27

Yeah, it was like a main street, and then there was like third.

SPEAKER_02 15:29

I'll raise my kids there.

SPEAKER_05 15:31

What?

SPEAKER_02 15:31

I'll raise my kids there. In De Pier.

SPEAKER_05 15:33

Yeah. You might want to check it out first. A lot happened this weekend. Yeah. With my kids, man. They were all over the place.

Monica Tanner Joins The Conversation

SPEAKER_03 15:41

Totally. How wise is it to have kids? I'm just kidding. Very wise. Tonight we're so excited. We have a very special guest today. Um, with us, we have relationship coach, expert, enthusiast Monica Tanner.

SPEAKER_05 16:01

Welcome. Monica.

SPEAKER_03 16:03

Thank you. So happy to be here with you guys.

SPEAKER_05 16:06

Absolutely. And author, right? Your book, uh Bad Marriage Advice, Debunking Myths That Will Make You Miserable and What to Do Instead.

SPEAKER_03 16:15

Yes, which we'll get into all of this. Yeah, totally. So, yeah, let's start with telling us a little bit about kind of your work, your practice. Um, yeah, let's start there.

SPEAKER_00 16:30

Well, I think it all started in my childhood when I was 12 years old. My parents divorced, and I remember thinking, wait a second, I've never seen a fairy tale where the main characters break up, right? So it kind of threw me for a loop. And I remember at such a young age, I just was very concerned with what makes a marriage strong and lasting. And as I observed couples around me, I just didn't feel like they were having a lot of fun. And to me, I thought marriage should be fun. So how can we do this differently? And that just became my life's work is to help married couples love their marriage again. And I went to college, I studied sociology, I graduated, met my Prince Charming, we started our family, and I began to struggle, even though I had studied, like I knew all the right things to do. It just was really hard to do in the actual throes of marriage. And so I've been married for 24 years. We have four children. The book I wrote for my oldest son, who is now married. And he called me last year and said, Mom, I've met the woman I'm gonna marry. I'm gonna propose next month. And I went, oh my gosh, hold the phone. Wait a second. Have I taught you all the things you need to know? And so I sat down to just kind of write out, oh my goodness, what do I need these kids to know before they do this thing? And it just quickly turned into bad marriage advice because I knew there was gonna be so many well-meaning, good-intentioned adults who were going to try and give marriage advice. And all of these cliches are so tongue-in-cheek, and they actually, some of them are really bad. And so that was kind of how the book just started. It was just like, okay, people are gonna tell you this and this and this and this, and let me debunk those for you and tell you a better way to do it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:13

Wow, that's so amazing to not only yourself like have been in a marriage for 24 years, but like to to kind of shepherd your child into it is such an interesting layer of learning this. It makes me excited to do that one day and just in life. But yeah, that is so cool. Um, and we want to get into these some of these myths. And obviously, you know, people can find the book and we'll link the book. But yeah, tell us a little bit about some of these myths and kind of your response to them, even like some of the major ones that you see coming up in the world.

Why Marriage Became Her Life’s Work

SPEAKER_00 18:50

Yeah, it's so funny because people always ask me my favorite, and I'm like, that's like asking me to pick pick a favorite child. I can't pick a favorite, but there are some really damaging ones. And the ones I talk about a lot on podcasts, there's two that go together that I think are really damaging, and one kind of stated and one that's kind of intrinsic that we just kind of all think and we don't realize how much it's kind of stirring the pot. But I have this story of a couple that came into my office, and she sat down. The wife was like literally her bags were packed. She was one foot out the door, ready to leave the marriage. And her husband was just so baffled. She's he was like, I love this woman. I don't know why she wants to leave me. And we started in with the circular questioning and data gathering, and she finally just said, I always dreamed of having a husband who would bring me coffee in bed. And obviously that was a metaphor, but also he like his jaw hit the floor. He was like, I've never heard you say that. She's like, Of course, I would bring you coffee in bed. Like, I will start tomorrow. Like, and she was like, Oh, and we had to unpack layers and layers of these ideas that if she had to ask for it, it didn't mean as much. And so that's the myth that if they love us enough, they'll just know. Yeah, and to just debunk that, it doesn't matter how much somebody loves you, they'll never be able to read your mind. And so we worked together for a long time, and this story has a beautiful ending. But I remember her saying towards the end of our work together, I can't believe I almost walked away from the best thing that ever happened to me. Wow.

SPEAKER_03 20:39

Wow. Oh my God. That okay, that immediately resonates with me in my own relationship.

SPEAKER_05 20:45

Didn't we talk about this the other day? Both of us, both of us have experiences. Now, my my anniversary is coming up and it'll be 13 years, and I have two kids, two sons, 10 and 8. And we were just talking about this idea that I'm not communicative to my wife sometimes and saying, you know what, I just appreciate when you just tell me to do things instead of having to guess, because it makes me feel like not only am I meeting you and your needs, but also I feel useful. Like I like to feel useful. I like to feel like I'm accomplishing things. And so I think we were volleying back and forth because I think similar things were coming up for both of our relationships where it's like, yeah, I need to maybe put myself out there and ask for my needs more instead of just assuming because this person is so important to me, they'll know what it is.

SPEAKER_00 21:35

Yeah. Right. I always like to say husbands can't read minds, but neither can wives. Like none of us are mind readers. It doesn't matter how long we've been together or how much we love the other person. There's no way that we know how to treat our loved ones unless they teach us. And so one of the biggest skill sets in marriage is teaching our partner or anyone that we interact with for that matter.

SPEAKER_03 22:00

How to treat us and communicating about that. So yeah, like what when you when you conceptualize that, like teaching a partner how to treat you, yeah, what are some of those ways people can start? And I know you get into like ingrained kind of conditioning and and all of this stuff, but yeah, I'm curious where we even start.

SPEAKER_00 22:20

Well, in relational life therapy, there's a skill set called making requests. Because the reality is, as humans, we walk around the world and we have these manuals for how we think other people should be acting and treating us, right? Whether we're talking about our spouse or our neighbor or our coworker, our podcast guest partner or host partner, right? The problem is those manuals are inside of us. And so, unless we make them explicit, there's no way that anyone could possibly know what our expectations are of them. And so the first step is just to be willing to make the request and remember that the person that you're talking to is equal to you, right? That you love them and remember that you're talking to them to make things better because the alternative is a whole bunch of resentment and complaint, right? The second step is to be stupidly specific about what we want. So let's say you want your partner to help more around the house. What does that look like? So a stupidly specific request would be like, hey, can you be in charge of cleaning the kitchen three nights a week? And when I say cleaning the kitchen, I mean clearing the dishes after from the table, putting them in the dishwasher, cleaning off the counters, wiping the counters, sweeping the floors, and taking out the trash. And then step three, here's where most people fall off and forget is to show appreciation for any progress. So let's say that your partner actually cleans the kitchen and does a really good job on Monday, but they forget for the rest of the week. Give them that feedback but and appreciation. This is how we get more of what we want. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 23:58

So the myth though that we're debunking there is that our partner should just know. Like we're fused with this idea because they're our life partner, that they should just know us in and out and know our needs.

SPEAKER_00 24:10

Yeah, there's another myth that this works great for, and that is don't sweat the small stuff. I hear that a lot. Like, don't make the small. It's all small stuff.

SPEAKER_05 24:19

We've been we've been told that sold millions of copies. Didn't that book sell like a lot of copies? Isn't it a book?

SPEAKER_02 24:24

Don't sweat the small stuff. Maybe don't sweat the small stuff.

SPEAKER_05 24:27

Don't sweat the small stuff. It's all small stuff. I'm pretty sure that was a book. Yeah, it's like a self-help book.

Myth Of Mind Reading In Love

SPEAKER_00 24:34

I definitely don't want to read it. You're like, take it off your shoe. Doesn't come out of thin air. The big stuff comes from not sweating the small stuff, sweeping it under the rug, not standing up for the things that are important to us, right? So the the alternative is to skillfully address the things when they're small, when they're seeds, before they become big weeds that choke out all of the generosity in the marriage. And when I'm talking about small stuff, I laugh because one of the best things I ever did was teach my husband how to replace the toilet paper roll this way, the right way. He didn't care. When we first got married, he he didn't think about how he did the toilet paper, but it meant a lot to me. I every time I sit down to the toilet, I'm like, thankfully, the toilet paper is loaded the right way. Like I've taught my husband to do how to do it and my kids how to do it, right? Yeah. And people will people will fight me on this. Like, well, what if your partner likes the toilet paper done the other way? Well, if you get that out, if you make that explicit, I like the toilet paper this way, and my partner likes the toilet paper this way, then you can create a collaboration. Maybe some of the bathrooms in the house get the paper this way, and the other bathrooms get the paper this way. And if you have a strong opinion about it, you like use the bathroom that has the toilet paper done the right way. There's just always ways to navigate these things if they're out in the open. But if we keep them inside and we stew about them and we sit down and we're like, I wish they would just load the toilet paper the right way, then we can't actually address them.

SPEAKER_03 26:07

I'm even thinking Josh and I have talked about this on the pod before when we've done an episode together, but we've definitely had the kind of fights where it's like something is happening where we each want the other to like be a different person in that moment because we just like like I will notice even sometimes it's like I want him to like be my therapist in certain moments, and that's not really his personality type. And there's a reason I didn't marry, no offense, another therapist, no offense to myself. But you know, like there's I obviously don't in general want him to be a different person, but there are like painful moments where I just want his natural response to be something else, and moments where he wants my natural response to be something so different than what it is. And sometimes when we even just name that, it like softens things, like, oh wow, that is what we're seeking, which we both know is impossible and not really what we want.

SPEAKER_00 27:04

But you can help your partner give you more of what you want by saying, Hey, I'm gonna tell you about my day. I don't want you to fix anything. Just listen like a girlfriend would listen, ask me questions about it, and then tell me, man, that sounds really hard. Like you can even feed them the words you want to hear. It doesn't mean any less if you have to do that, I promise. Right, right.

SPEAKER_03 27:24

Yeah. I yeah, sometimes in some ways it means more because it's not their nature, it's not their comfort zone. So they're pushing themselves to be there for you in the way you're asking, which like I've definitely had to like work toward that interpretation, but it does ring true.

SPEAKER_00 27:42

And the reason why people don't do this all the time is because making requests is actually vulnerable. Like your partner doesn't have to fulfill the request for you. It that's the meaning of a request. You're not making a demand, it's a request, right? And so we open ourselves up to some heartache when we actually request what we want. Like maybe our partner doesn't want to or isn't capable or you know, not willing to fulfill the request. So that's why this is hard.

SPEAKER_05 28:11

Yeah. And I think that, you know, things like I can only be happy if I'm with someone, right? Well, that might be a myth, right? And and that is more on the individual, but we try to get people to kind of like take a step back and kind of see, okay, well, if you did treat that as fact, right, then maybe you're limiting yourself from being alone or having more independence in your life. So it's interesting the idea of just any type of myths or rules in our lives, but then how they certainly, you know, you can take any context, whether it be relational, and kind of look at them.

SPEAKER_00 28:45

You bring up an interesting point, which is why do we take these as fact, right? Like challenge everything.

SPEAKER_03 28:52

Yeah. And it and I wonder, because you were also mentioning that you are certified in sex therapy. And I'm guessing a lot of like of these rules or like tropes around sex come up and can block people.

SPEAKER_00 29:05

Yeah. I think one of the reasons why sex and money both are like such massive problems in relationships, why you like hear that you know, most marriages break up because of sex, money, or parenting. Like those are the big three, right? But these are very, very charged concepts. They're concepts that develop long before we have any choices about it, right? Our parents have ideas about sex and sexuality that they pass down to us that we don't even know that we've inherited.

SPEAKER_03 29:36

Especially things around, you know, like what your desire should be, you know, on the average day and what it means if you, you know, are mismatched in your, you know, preferences or sex drive with your partner, you know, all these things that are like, well, this is like a red flag, versus like something to address and like be present with.

SPEAKER_00 29:58

And it takes a lot of self-awareness to be able to look at how do I think about my own sexuality? How do I think about my partner's body? How do I think about what I've been taught is okay and not okay. And, you know, do these things serve me? And if not, I've got to pull them out of my garden and I've got to plant nourishing seeds for nourishing fruits and vegetables and flowers that actually bless my life and my relationship. And it takes a lot of time and self-awareness to be able to go through this process in all of these different areas.

Requests That Are Specific And Kind

SPEAKER_03 30:32

You know what's funny? I'm almost thinking of like the reverse that might happen in your practice. I have a lot of clients where we're doing in personal therapy, you know, individual therapy. And some people will come to that and want to want me to fix their partner, basically. Right. And their partner's not even there. And their partner's not even there. And, you know, it's a constant process of like noticing like when we when you bring your mind to this conflict coming up or this issue, what do you feel? And what comes up in the relationship with yourself? And then we kind of maybe over and over bring the work back there. And I'm sure, like in the actual relational space with the two partners, there's a little bit of both, right? There's the actual interpersonal work, and then there's some like helping them, I imagine, notice what's coming up in you. And establish like what's really there in the interaction and what might be more within one partner.

SPEAKER_00 31:36

I think couples' work is so special and sacred for a few different reasons. One, because the couples hold each other accountable, right? Like it's hard to get away with, you know, being too far into your story because your partner is gonna, you know, reveal a different truth, right? Like you're not gonna be able to get away with too much there. But also, it creates a lot of compassion to do personal childhood trauma work and in the presence of the partner. I think it's so important. It creates a lot of compassion and you know, understanding when you're actually working with that inner child in the presence of the partner. I think it's such a beautiful, beautiful experience.

SPEAKER_03 32:23

I'm so curious about that, like some of that inner child work with the partner present. Do you with that tell us a little bit about that, how that can look?

SPEAKER_00 32:32

It's really going back and figuring out what are that person's protective patterns. Where did that come from? It's like, where did you learn to do that? Who did that to you? Who are you modeling, or who let you get away with doing that? Right. And so it's like really going back and loving up, like really loving up on those parts that didn't get what they needed and understanding the adaptation, which is the protector of those wounded parts, right? It's like really understanding what that protector was protecting against. And we always want to honor the infinite wisdom of that inner child and give them some guidance because adaptive then, maladaptive now, right? So your partner is not your mean drunk father or your overcontrolling mother, right? So those adaptations played a really important role in your life. And we want to, like, you know, honor those inner child parts, the adaptive part of you. We also want to strap them in the backseat so they're not driving the car in your relationship. And I love doing that work in the presence of the partner because it really creates a lot of compassion to see how to love up on that inner child part.

SPEAKER_03 33:55

Yeah. And totally like orientation to the present by just them being there, like really helps them. I that makes me think of a lot of EMDR work and how sometimes, like in a traumatic childhood experience, like you really need to like help the parts see like you're in the present. Let this soften. You don't need this anymore. But it does take, like you said, loving up on the parts, noticing like they've protected you. They've only wanted the best for you and safety for you. So yeah, like, how do you ask those parts to let that go? It's a it takes some finessing and really processing of all that stuff. And then you add this other layer of the partner being there, seeing you let certain things go, or even seeing you a little bit re-experience things from the past so they really can know where some of this is coming from.

SPEAKER_00 34:49

I know for me, like personally in my own life, it's been so beautiful and like therapeutic for me to talk about some of my experiences that my husband like could never even imagine, right? Some of my abandonment issues and you know, like reasons why I spiral into things, you know, like just helping him understand like where that comes from, where our experiences are so diverse from each other. But also he knows my losing strategies, he knows where I go on the relational grid, meaning my what my losing strategy is retaliation. So when I feel hurt, my impulse is to hurt back, it's to make the other person feel the pain that I'm feeling, right? And I'm not proud of that, but that is what where I go. Like, so you know, it's been helpful in my relationship with him, because he'll be like, oh, that's that sounds like you're trying to retaliate. And I'm like, ah, dang it, you nailed me, right? It gives me enough space. So we call this naming the pattern, right? So when my husband and I get into like, you know, some of our biggest fights, we have the skill set now to orient ourselves us against the pattern, which is really important, right? Because usually when you're in a fight, most of the time it's your adaptive children fighting with each other. But now we can see, like, oh my goodness, here's what's happening. We've actually named the pattern the Texas Tornado. So I'm originally from Texas, and you can see when a storm is brewing inside of me, right? And so there's a country song called My Little Texas Tornado. And so it's we've lovingly named our pattern. It helps us to reorient as a team against the pattern, yeah, instead of me versus him, right? Yeah, and so he'll be like, There you go, retaliating. I'm like, there you are, needing to be right. And sometimes the two of us can just step back and watch our adaptive children go at it, but it brings so much self-awareness because it gives us the time to be able to choose differently. Yeah, like I know what that adaptive child wants to do, and I'm like, take a deep breath. This is a person that I love. Like, I don't want to hurt this person.

Small Stuff That Turns Into Resentment

SPEAKER_05 36:59

Yeah, yes. In your work with couples, are there any like myths or things like that where people are actually like, no, that, but that's the truth, where they actually like almost want to defend the myth and say, no, that actually is something that is important to me and that does maybe work for me. I buy into maybe some of these other ones are myths, but you know, and I'm thinking of I know the one or you know, the trope or the platitude of like, don't go to bed angry. Like, if uh do people ever fuse with, but no, but that is something we need as a couple to like make this work. I'm just curious, do people get like defensive of like some of the myths and they don't want to hear that it it's actually doing more harm than good?

SPEAKER_00 37:40

Yeah, there's some of them, like don't go to bed angry. People will fight like other relational coaches, experts like in the space, like we'll all do podcasts and they're like, we teach everyone you don't go to bed angry, right? Another one that gets a lot of resistance is divorce is not an option, which I laugh so hard because I'm like, divorce is always an option. If you say divorce is an option, you're actually not telling the truth, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 38:04

Right, right, right. I I think this has come up in therapy spaces where people will very much fuse with till death to us part, like no matter what, right? Which is basically the same myth as divorce is not an option. It's like no matter how miserable or suffering or how much we're hurting each other, like that is just we're in this, and that's the it is that idea that keeps people stuck in misery, right?

SPEAKER_00 38:29

Like it's like so like if you'll just let go of that, I'm not saying you should divorce, right? I'm just saying if that's an option, then instead of a marriage of obligation, you can create a marriage around choice.

SPEAKER_03 38:42

Yeah, yeah. And like as you're both seeing the some of these, I'm noticing like they seem so organized around fear, these rules, you know, like divorce is not an option. It's probably there's a lot of well, if it were an option, what is scary about that or what is threatening about that? Almost like I have to say, and maybe even repeat, this is not an option to feel safe. Well, it's like, okay, you don't feel safe. So kind of like looking at if we loosen anything, what's vulnerable about that, what's scary about that, and like opening that up a little bit can be Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:19

So you bring up such an interesting point because in the the through line of the book that I use is that if it engenders lazy communication, it's bad advice. So all 15 pieces of bad marriage advice, what they hold in common is that they damper down communication. And what you just said, one of the biggest reasons why people don't want to communicate about some of these things is because it brings up a lot of fear, right? Or shame from childhood, right? Like, what are these things that we've created a lot of fear or shame around and and that hold it into place, right?

Teaching Partners What You Need

SPEAKER_03 39:56

But if we can just discuss this, like yeah, because really so much opening of things up and just extending the honest communication is going, it's just gonna give you where to go next, kind of organically. Something I that came up for me a little while ago, and then I forgot about it, and then I remembered. Um, for me, like a lot of clients I have, whether they're in like early partnership or they're dating, they're seeking partnership, a lot of the like present-day social media trends around kind of like red flags and things you have to walk away from and all this stuff. I I notice a lot of like stuck points around that, right? Like if they do this, you walk away. And even myself, like in my own dating before I met Josh, because we've only been married a year, I remember thinking like some of that stuff was really, I had to unlearn some of that in us being together and realize like I can ask for things, I can, you know, like expecting him to be one way and start that way. You know, I well, one that came up, I'll share. Hopefully, Josh is okay with this, but he can cut it if he's not. Um we're looking over at him, he's like, Yeah, wonderful. Put it out there. Um, you know, I remember listening to a podcast where these two influencers were talking about like it's not okay to have a partner who's moody. And that's a kind of vague term, you know. Like, I and I've learned this actually not only about Josh, but like his sister and his mom a little bit. Like this is kind of a family trope where, like, in the morning they're a little bit hard to kind of engage with or like bringing people to turn on all the way. Exactly. And I wake up in the morning with my whole personality right there, which like a lot of people would be so annoyed by, and sometimes Josh is annoyed by it. And I get that. Um, but you know, I remember hearing that and having this like sinking feeling, like, oh no, you're not supposed to be with someone. And for like a split second, it's like I'm not remembering that I'm obsessed with Josh. I love him more than anything. And like anything that's less than ideal about me or him, we manage and it, you know, we grow from it. But like thinking, like, oh, you're supposed to have a partner that's like a rock and they're always kind of chill or their moods are like pretty tame. And it, you know, it's like something that's out there, right? Like someone, you can't have someone like that, which also implies that the people that, you know, maybe have a little bit of mood labia or trauma or whatever it is, like shouldn't have a partner. Everyone should leave them, which I don't believe. But yeah, like I've noticed like sometimes this conversation around like red flags and what's right and what's wrong really was sticky for me and for some of my clients now, you know, believing like, is it bad that I have a partner like this? Or even is it bad that I have a partner that makes less money than me as a woman, as a heterosexual woman? You know, some of that stuff comes up. I wonder if that comes up in your work.

SPEAKER_00 43:07

Well, I think what's so important to remember is that we are all so different and our relationships are all so different. And modern marriage is so different. And that's why you don't get handed like a marriage manual, like, here's how you do this, because everybody's marriage is so different. We're all so individual. So, like what you would call moody, I would call like just human, right? Like, we all have 50% positive emotions and 50% negative emotions. And when you're talking, I laugh because almost every like morning person I know married a night person, like like opposites attract, right? If you think about introverts, marry extroverts, like messy people marry clean freaks. Like that's just like how life is, right? So you can walk around and be like, okay, well, I this if I'm gonna be with this person, they have to check all these boxes, or you can just go, you know what? I'm a Human. I'm looking for another human. And yeah, there might be some things that are deal breakers for me, but they're not deal breakers for everyone. And so to say like you shouldn't marry a moody person, like who's even saying that? And how can they even have the authority to do that? Like, that's absolutely ridiculous to me. But I I think, you know, as humans, we we learn skillfully how to how to navigate those things. My husband and I couldn't possibly be more different. Like we were raised in two different parts of the country. We were raised by two very different like nuclear family types, different religions. So if you ask us a question, almost always you're gonna get a different answer. We're gonna hold two different positions on whatever issue you're asking us about. And I always say our differences are what make us so passionate, like brings a lot of passion into our marriage, but it's navigating those differences that creates the intimacy in our marriage. Like we never run out of things to talk about, but we have worked very, very hard at the skill of repair, meaning we can have two very different positions on an issue. We can go head to head and battle it out, but we can also repair really, really well. So all relationships are an endless cycle of harmony, disharmony, and repair. Like this comes from the research of Ed Tronic. He studied infants and their mothers and how they go in and out of harmony with each other. But where trust and resilience and strength and passion and intimacy, like the juiciness of a relationship, comes in that repair, the return from disharmony to harmony.

SPEAKER_03 45:49

That is so true that those like darker moments and coming back from them really build connection and safety. Like I can be a mess and still be loved and returned to and return to my partner.

SPEAKER_00 46:05

We all get to go crazy, just not at the same time. Right.

SPEAKER_05 46:08

Well, it also the the idea of like there's these indicators or red flags or whatever it is that then I need to walk away. It's it also I feel like what I'm seeing a lot too is this idea that it's um it should be effortless. Like if you truly loved, if you're truly in a romantic relationship with somebody who's quote unquote the right person or meant for you, that it should really feel very effortless. And there's I guess that would also be a myth is that like this idea that there's nothing more true than a marriage is so effortful. Like you have to put work into it all the time.

SPEAKER_00 46:50

And I mean, I think if that's what you're going for, like, oh, I'm gonna find the perfect partner based on all of these criteria, that who made this criteria, right? Like, hopefully, you're coming up with your own criteria and not listening to the people online who are saying these are your red flags or whatever.

SPEAKER_05 47:06

But I I unfortunately think that that's the world we live in where people are looking for people to make the they are looking for people to put the criteria out there because people are so lost and people when it comes to relationships sometimes that they kind of want to be fed that. Yeah, you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:21

I mean, I I don't agree with it, but I just think you can find anybody to tell you anything, yeah, you know, and well, some something that'll come up for my clients when they're in that place is we'll talk, we'll even just talk about. I'll say, you know, like, well, let's think about your relationship with yourself. Does that feel effortless? And they're like, I'm in therapy. So what do you think? And it's like, no, right. So it's like really the natural state is that it's effortful and that there's all this pain, life is full of pain and struggle. So of course, like that's gonna show up in your relationship. And to your point, the relationship is such a beautiful space for healing more than even just the relationship. It is this like amazing platform for self-healing and really like expansion, I think, of one's like soul, you know, to like have that kind of love relationship and go through pain through that medium.

SPEAKER_00 48:19

Yeah. Have you ever heard Terry Real talk about the mysticism of marriage?

SPEAKER_03 48:24

No.

SPEAKER_00 48:25

So this goes to a lot of what we're speaking about, and it combats one of these myths that if you married the right person, they'll never hurt you. Yeah. So when you're talking about relationship being this like beautiful container for healing, if you marry the right person, you are gonna feel a lot of pain. The reason why is because you are you will be attracted to somebody who is enough like that old soup that you grew up in, that familiar feeling to you, they're going to open up a lot of those old wounds in order for you to heal. So you can like if there's a hundred people that will never, ever, ever actually like poke you where it hurts, you won't be attracted to those people. You are attracted to the person who's uniquely designed to stick you where it hurts so that you have hopefully they have more resources than your family of origin. I mean, that's part of the mysticism, right? Is because they're gonna poke you where it hurts and also support your healing, but they can't heal you. That's where people get that wrong. Like the right person isn't going to heal you, but they will provide opportunities for you to heal, aka they're going to hurt you.

SPEAKER_03 49:44

Yeah, it's like that stuff is activated to work through it. Yeah. And I love thinking of that as mystical. I definitely experience it that way with pretty much every relationship in my life. I'm like, I am been given this person to like work through this thing.

SPEAKER_00 49:59

And definitely, definitely, Josh is yeah, I've been given this person or I was attracted to this person, right? Like there could be somebody next to you who would never open that up for you. They would just treat you like a princess and you will just walk right on by and not be attracted to that person. Right, right. Yes, that's so true. That's so true.

Inner Child Patterns And Compassion

SPEAKER_03 50:18

Oh my God, I could talk about this all day. All day. Yeah. Well, I'm curious, you know, because you've uh thankfully shared a little bit about even your own relationship. Is there one of these myths that you notice yourself getting stuck on? Or like having to re-learn, unlearn, and kind of like grapple with.

SPEAKER_00 50:36

Well, never go to bed angry was like the toughest one for me. It opened up so much of my abandonment because my husband, okay. So when we first got married, that was like the biggest piece of advice that everybody wanted to give us, right? And I was so invested in getting marriage right because my wounding is that men walk away from women. That's my experience. That's, you know, my family lineage. It's been handed down. My grandpa walked away from my grandma, my dad walked away from my mom, you know. And so this is my biggest fear. Okay. And so I am hanging on every piece of advice. Every couple that comes through the line that wants to tell us how to do marriage well. I'm like, yes, give me all the advice. So don't go to bed angry was the most activating because my husband, see, this is funny. My husband is a morning person. He wakes up and he's like ready to go, 5:30 a.m. Like, let's, you know, like, let's tackle this day. However, he has a switch that goes off at night. At a certain point at night, he is like dead to the world. Like, do not ask me about anything, do not give me a problem to solve. Like, I'm not available to you or the kids or anyone, not by choice, but like literally his brain shuts down at a certain time because it has to wake up at a certain time, right? And so I didn't really realize this. All I knew is that we'd be exhausted and we'd get into some disagreement or argument late at night, and he would roll over and go to sleep. And not only was I so activated, like you don't care about me, you don't care about our relationship, you don't care how this makes me feel, but you also don't care about our marriage because I'm certain that we're not supposed to go to bed angry and I'm still upset. And so I'm bawling, crying, I'm journaling, I'm like trying to figure out all of these things until one day, many, many years into our marriage, many, many sleepless nights later. I finally was like, he couldn't possibly know what's happening inside of my body when he rolls over and goes to sleep, right? Like I am so panic stricken that he's gonna get up and go, This is not worth this. This woman is crazy. I'm leaving. This was my greatest fear. And so one night I was like, I was like, hey, I just want to explain to you what happens when you roll over and go to sleep. Like, like all it activates every fear inside of me that you are going to leave. And he's like, for him, that was he he had a completely different childhood, a completely different experience. He's like, Well, that's crazy because I love you and I'm not going anywhere. I just I really just need to go to sleep. And I was like, Oh, and I was like, Well, could you just say something like that, maybe? Like before you roll over, go to sleep. Could you just say I love you and I'm not going anywhere? I'm just gonna go to sleep, right? And he's like, sure. And so no matter how upset we would both get, he would say, I love you, I'm not going anywhere. I'm gonna go to sleep now. And that was enough for my nervous system to calm down and get some sleep. And here's what started to happen: the trust, the resilience, all of the goodness came when he actually followed through. Cause in the morning, when he woke up, always before me, remember, because he's a morning person and I'm not. He would roll over and wrap me in his big strong arms and he would say, I'm so sorry, I was grumpy last night. I'm so sorry we fought. Like, what happened? And then we would work it out in the morning. And so it was so cycle-breaking for me to see that he actually really was just tired, that he's not like contemplating leaving the relationship or anything like that. And that I could trust that in the morning we were gonna figure it out. And so now nothing really needs to be 24 years later, nothing really needs to be said. If we're not getting along at night, we're like, we'll figure it out in the morning.

SPEAKER_03 54:30

Yeah, I love that great story. I really have similar abandonment issues to you as you're saying that, and like that having some statement like that when that's your wounding is so powerful. Like, I'm not going anywhere. I need to sleep now. We will return to this. You know, like really lets you have a lot of things.

Repair Skills After Big Fights

SPEAKER_00 54:51

And we have a lot of code words, like I call these code words or code phrases, and when you start to learn about each other's wounding and things you can come up with things like like I choose you is another one that he'll say to me. Like when he sees like kind of the panic on my face, like uh, like like maybe he's flirting with somebody or just like being outgoing, or you know, his personality, and and you know, like we're at a party and he's not like coming to check on me or something. Like these are all like insecurities from my youth, right? Now it's it's all very different. I have a much more secure attachment, but he supported my healing by coming up with these phrases, like, I'm not going anywhere, I choose you, I love you, right? Like these little things where he could see that wounded child coming up and starting to like take over, and he could just diffuse it. But I asked for it. Yeah, it didn't just happen by accident, it came from communicating, it came from sharing really vulnerable parts of myself. Now I'm sharing it with however many listeners you have, right? But it's like what happens when you can let your defenses down and just share vulnerably, and then you can support each other in those vulnerable spaces. That is where healing happens.

SPEAKER_03 56:05

I love that. I love that. Okay, this is maybe that's maybe a great place for us to kind of pin ourselves. This was wait, wait, wait. No, I have a question. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 56:15

Because we do like to engage our audience with, like, you know, and Kelly and I and Josh could probably talk forever about books and movies and things like that. I would be curious, do you in any type of media, do you have like a a short list of like, yeah, that's like a true representation of like marriage, whether it be like in a book or like not true to the like, yeah, that's a hundred percent truth, but like any type of show or or movie where you were like, wow, that actually felt really authentic. Like, that's kind of what a relationship may look like. And I know I'm putting you on the spot here, but I always kind of ask people about like what would be like, yeah, that's what it is. It's the dirt and all.

SPEAKER_00 56:56

I will say, just in light of like tossing something out there, I love the movie Runaway Bride with Julia Row. Runaway Bride, we love Julia Runner. I recommend that because so often, pieces of bad marriage advice or these myths, they all hinge upon this idea of self-abandonment. And so I love to give as homework for people to watch the runaway bride together because what you'll see is when you have two strong individuals who can stand up for themselves with loving power in marriage, yeah, then you have a really strong partnership. But you've got to go through this process, whether you're single or whether you're already married, you've got to learn how to stand up for yourself with loving power. That's the skill. Make requests, set boundaries, you know, stand up for the things that you feel like are really important. And that's the whole process that Julia Roberts goes through. So I love to give that movie out as homework and date night. Like, go watch the runaway bride. This is what I need you both to really do. I love that.

SPEAKER_05 58:04

I love that movie. I love that movie. I love that movie. I love Richard Gere. Yeah. Isn't Joan Cusack in it?

SPEAKER_03 58:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 58:09

Chicago. It's a great movie. It's a great movie.

SPEAKER_03 58:11

It's almost too good, like parts work. Like, obviously, a part of her at the end would escape that knew I can't compromise, you know, in this way. Well, thank you for indulging me in that.

SPEAKER_05 58:21

I always like to add, put people on the spot with something like that.

SPEAKER_03 58:24

Yeah. Well, tell us where can people find your book? And if they want to work with you, how can they get in contact?

SPEAKER_00 58:31

Yeah. So you can learn so much more about me, my free resources, like my podcast, Secrets of Happily Ever After, my book, my social media presence, and how to work with me, all at my website, monicatanner.com.

SPEAKER_03 58:45

Okay, perfect. We'll link that in our um show notes. And yeah, thank you so much for joining us today.

SPEAKER_05 58:52

This has been such a pleasure. Thank you so much for sharing. And being so vulnerable with us as well. Like that's one of the sides of the our podcast that we want to show is just that we're working on the same stuff that we're helping people with. So thank you so much, Monica, for joining us.

unknown 59:08

Yeah.

Swearing In Front Of Kids

SPEAKER_05 59:08

Thank you. Well, that maybe leads us into our how-wise Yeah, our how-wise is it today. So, how wise is it to swear in front of your kids?

SPEAKER_03 59:18

Yeah. Or in front of, since I don't have kids in front of kids in your life. Find some kids and swear in front of you. Swear. Test this out. Yeah. Yeah, because I'm thinking about my nieces. And I actually don't know if I swear in front of them. You probably don't. I probably don't. Or maybe once accidentally.

SPEAKER_05 59:38

Yeah. Yeah. What about you? I mean, my kids have definitely heard me swear. Yeah. There's no doubt about it. I don't think it's uh but we're not gonna, yeah. Definitely. I don't think it's wise to maybe you know, intentionally do it or do it all of the time. Yeah. Maybe using that language, because certainly they're gonna pair it and repeat back and do whatever you do as a parent. And so you can't once it's once they hear that word, and then they they might start using it outside of the home, and then it's like you got a whole other can of worms. Yeah. There. So um, and right, the things that we kind of withhold from them, they want more. So there's also like a version of that where if they never hear it, yeah, right, they're gonna hear it somewhere, yeah. And it becomes a little bit more even like precious to them, where it's like, oh, like it's such a bad, it's such a bad word, like that makes it cool. So I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:36

It's like if you're gonna swear, I'd rather you do it now. Yeah, rather you kind of do it in the house in front of us. Um not a regular mom, I'm a cool mom.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:45

Yeah, and I think we we try to, you know, if we swear, it's like, yeah, maybe you know, there's another word I could use, or you know, and it's a word like any other. So we try to kind of model for our kids too, like you say whatever you want in your head. Like, yeah, because I remember there's a period where Wes was specifically being like, I'm saying bad words in in my head, and we were both like, Great, you can say whatever you want. Amazing. You don't have to feel guilty about that at all. Like, say whatever you want in your head.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:14

Um that's so cute. I'm saying bad words in my head.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:17

But even that was like kind of almost taboo, and so we wanted to normalize like you say whatever you want in your head, you know, that's the thing. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:25

How many firstborn sons have said, like, I'm saying bad words in my head? Like, like like confessing, like turning themselves in.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:33

I'm saying bad words.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:34

Uh, secondborns aren't doing that.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:36

Um, I think it's I think language is they're gonna be exposed to it. Yeah. Sometimes the exposure of it in the home, at least you can give them some context. You can talk to them a little bit more about it. But I don't know. I I don't think it's wise to just be shooting from the hip everyone every now.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:57

Right. You know, every well, it's like you know what's funny is like I this is one of those things where it's like you would really have to ask me again after having an actual child in the home. Because I really do sometimes with swearing, especially lately, get in this kind of like philosophical place where it's like, what is really the problem with it?

SPEAKER_05 1:02:16

What is the problem?

SPEAKER_03 1:02:17

Like, is saying like fuck this, like because you're suggesting sex in a way? Is that the problem?

SPEAKER_05 1:02:26

I well, who are you asking? Are you asking me what the problem is with?

SPEAKER_03 1:02:31

I'm just curious what you think. Like, you know, it's like it's almost like it's self-created t taboo, which is all right.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:38

No, yeah, I mean, it's all like socially prescribed, like you can't say this word, but what is really wrong with that word? Probably nothing.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:46

Right. Right?

SPEAKER_05 1:02:47

We're the ones who have attached meaning and whatever it means, yeah. Which is fine, and I get that, and you can say that as adults, but you also can't have a child running around school saying fuck this all the time, like they're gonna get in trouble.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:02

Because the school is offended by that, or it's like the rule. It's the rule. Well, that's my thing where it's like, would would the lesson be like in this space? Like it doesn't bother me if you say those words, but there are a lot of people that offend, so we try not to say them in Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:18

I think you gotta put the contact, you gotta wrap it in the context, right? Because whether you like the rule or not, there's gonna be consequences, right? So yeah, like you say that, whether you mean it or not, whether there's any intent behind it, you're probably gonna get in trouble, right? Right. And so if you want to be in trouble, go ahead and say it, you know. But it is But I mean the philosophical question of it, we could debate that all we want, but we still live in a real world. We live in a real world where there's gonna be consequences of it, right? And we can't just be moulin off in second, third, fourth, fifth.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:51

It is funny when you come across a kid that does use those words, or like, or like my nieces have, you know, they've said stuff. Yeah. Because like you know, they hurt overheard it. I feel like Sertia said something. I don't you could quote directly, couldn't you? It was like we were in my mom's backyard and she said like two things, and Kevin's like, don't give any attention to it. And we were like, I was tearing off laughing.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:17

Yeah, I mean, sometimes you can't stop.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:18

It was like so funny. I can't even remember what it was, but God, you and I both were like, I can't believe she just said that.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:27

Right. I think it's also hard too, because philosophically it doesn't bother me, right? The word doesn't, but you know, your kid's gonna go to another kid's house, right? And so then it's like you're gonna have to deal with well, it does bother you, but it certainly bothers them and their parents and their kids, and then um, not that this is how you should parent, but you're gonna feel embarrassed about that probably, and you're probably gonna feel judged, and you know, even if you don't care about it. So there's a lot of like social stuff that's intertwined in it. I mean, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with swearing, or even I don't think much about like swear words like that. Like, oh my god. Um I think the kids need to hear it because it's just language that's used, yeah. Rather than know what the word means, because some of them are like maybe more slang words that they they don't know what it means, given the context that you kind of want to be like, uh yeah. I read lightly on that one.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:25

Yeah, where it's like, if I really get into this, this is beyond your maturity level.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:29

Right. Yeah, and you don't really know what you're saying or what you mean.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:32

Yeah. Well, maybe that's a good argument for why it's not wise so much to swear in front of your kids, or to to like it's wise to minimize it, because a lot of them do suggest things that maybe like like sex or whatever that you you're not yet gonna explain to them until they need that explanation and and want it and can tolerate it. But yeah, I mean, maybe like shit's fine because shit's not that bad.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:00

I feel like damn. What about damn?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:01

It's like, what does damn even mean? Oh, damn you to hell.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:05

Who cares?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:06

Who cares about?

SPEAKER_05 1:06:07

I started trying to replace all my swear words, and by that, you probably just fuck with Jesus Christ. So I for a long I still probably we weren't allowed to say that really. I'm talking about parenting my own kids. I was trying to like not say fuck as much. So I would be like, Jesus Christ. Like that would be that was like my replacement words that I was trying to use. Um I love just like Jesus, like that type of thing. But yeah. And we're not religious.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:36

But um I remember when I was young, if I heard one of my parents say the F-word, it was like, Yeah, that was like something's wrong. Yeah, it was like run for the hills. Yeah. Yeah. And then I had a friend who, like in her house, everybody swore and it was fine.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:53

I remember um getting in trouble one time and I was like, this was the first house we lived in, so I must have been in first grade. But I remember vividly getting in trouble because I thought my parents were sleeping, and I was like in the living room with my brother, and I was like, was making him laugh by saying TV shit. Like I just kept repeating, TV shit, TV shit. And he was laughing so hard. And then and then like when my parents did come out of their bedroom, they had heard all of it. Oh, and I got into like, who's saying TV shit?

SPEAKER_03 1:07:30

TV shit. TV shit.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:31

What does it mean? I what does it even mean? But I got in so much trouble for doing that. And I was like in first. So if you can imagine a first grade John just running around saying TV shit. Uh TV shit. Jake was laughing a lot. That is great. But yeah, what does it mean? It means nothing. Really? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:47

Yeah, it's like maybe it's something to help explain to them later. Yeah. When they maybe when they come to you and they inevitably hear these things. Yeah. And you can give them the more nuanced explanation when they're ready for that.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:01

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:01

But little kids, probably not so wise to swear around them.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:04

Oh, yeah, because they're just gonna, again, they're just gonna pair it, they're gonna repeat everything. Yeah. So there's gonna be aftermath of that. Yeah. Which you it's fine.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:15

Right, right. God, I'm thinking of things where it's like it's just anything you say in front of my Mises. It's like that you don't want them to repeat. That will be the one thing they repeat.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:26

Oh, for sure. And the obvious thing that you've invest so much time and and effort in to be like, God, this is gonna be great. It's gonna be so much fun. It's like be prepared to do that two million more times because it's like, yeah, it's never a one-off. Right. And it's like, oh god, I can't recreate that. I put so much effort into it. Like, I don't feel like doing that. But your kids just like want it. They're just like, nope, you're gonna do it, you're gonna play that game, you're gonna do that thing exactly the way it was, be funny again, like you were, like, and it's oh man, yeah, that's a marathon to do that stuff, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:03

Okay, so we know it's it that it's not wise. Josh, what do you think?

SPEAKER_06 1:09:07

I think I think it's wise to not normalize it to the point where they're just like spouting off, yeah, yeah, and getting in trouble. Yeah, but it's like if you create too much like reverence around it, like don't say that, then like you know, they're gonna be saying it. Yeah, yeah. I like the idea of like kind of wait for that, like wait for them to come to you. You're gonna inevit we're gonna inevitably slip up and swear. Yeah. Like kind of like don't you don't have to make an emission like I'm going to swear around my kids to like get it into their system, get it into their school. Right. But it's like, you know, they're gonna be exposed to it, and I think when that happens, it's like almost like it's like hold on loosely.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:51

Yeah, hold it lightly. Hold it lightly. I like that hold on loosely. Hold on loose. Is that a song?

SPEAKER_06 1:09:58

And don't let it 38 special. Oh, I love it. 38 fuck.

unknown 1:10:07

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_06 1:10:08

What is TV fuck? TV shit.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:11

TV fuck.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:13

I didn't say that. Now my parents are gonna listen to this, and now I'm really gonna be in trouble.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:18

Yeah, TV shit.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:19

What is it? It's two words that you say next to one another that make your brother laugh. And then when your brother laughs, that's the reinforcement you're gonna do. Then you'd say it a thousand more times. Yeah, so I don't know how why even what how that even came up, but I just was saying it and he was laughing, and so I wanted to make him laugh more.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:40

I love it.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:40

Little brother was being cool.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:42

I love it.

SPEAKER_06 1:10:42

My younger brother Zach used to not be able to pronounce fire truck, so he would say fire fuck.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:48

Yes. I'm sure everybody laughed.

SPEAKER_06 1:10:51

Yeah, that's cute.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:52

Yeah, I'm sure we reinforced that.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:54

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:55

There's something though really funny about little kids swearing. Oh my god, like if you see it in a movie or a show, or even just like you know, some kid just says something randomly. It's so funny. It's hard not to have a reaction to it.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:07

Yeah, god, I wish I could remember what my niece said because we all were like stunned silent. She I think she must have said fuck.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:14

And she was maybe four.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:16

Perfect.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:17

Which is funny.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:19

There's like maybe she said, like, what the fuck? It was something like that.

SPEAKER_06 1:11:23

Or was like, oh, god damn it.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:25

Yeah. Oh, that's what it was. We were out and something fell like on the little patio of my mom's. She goes, Oh, god damn it. That was great. She was like, and I was like, and I'm laughing so hard. My brother's like, Don't give it attention. Like, oh, you're not. Yeah. It's too funny. It was too funny. Because she also speaks with such good diction, like for how little she is. So I was really like using it correctly. Absolutely. In such a funny way.

Plugs Thanks And Disclaimer

SPEAKER_05 1:11:50

It fit the context. Yeah. Okay, well, that's our episode. That's our episode. Thank you so much. Yeah. Monica Tanner for joining us.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:59

Yes, yes. Monica Tanner. Um, and we'll link her stuff in the show notes. Um, where can people reach you?

SPEAKER_05 1:12:07

Uh, butts viewtz. Jonathan at gmail.com. What about you?

SPEAKER_03 1:12:10

Okay, amazing. Um, you can reach me at kkpsychotherapy.com. If you want to work with me, you have questions on the pod, or you know, interest in joining the pod as a guest, shoot me an inquiry there. And Josh?

SPEAKER_06 1:12:25

I'd like to shout out my new band Believe.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:29

Your new band.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:30

You're in a new band? The name of the band is Talking Heads. They're Wait, wait, what? The name of the band. Don't they say that? The name of the band is Talking Heads. Is that in one of their songs? I feel like, but no, the name of the band is My New Band Believe, and the name of the album is My New Band Believe.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:50

Self-titled. Okay. Self-titled.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:54

It's the bassist from uh the dearly departed Black Middle, whose guitarist died, and now they're all making solo albums. It's the Geordie Greep band.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:04

Oh, okay. Bassist from that band. My new band Believe.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:07

My new band Believe. And their album My New Band. My New Band Believe. Naughty bookish post-punks songs ranging from two and a half minutes to nine minutes. Lyrics that don't really make sense, but might make you cry.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:22

Okay, great.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:23

And it's got some medieval theatrics. Okay, great. Some surprising axe work and slippery rhythms. And that's Josh Bear Films. JoshBearfilms.com. Bear is in the aspirin. If you want me to edit this down so you don't have to hear about my new band Believe, I can also edit. Love it. Anything else?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:46

Okay, amazing.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:47

Thank you, Blanket Forbes. Thank you, Blanket Forrest.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:51

Thank you to all of you. We'll see you in a week.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:53

See you next time. Next time. The Wise Mine Happy Hour podcast is for entertainment purposes only, not to be treated as medical advice. If you are struggling with your mental health, please seek medical attention or counseling.