psychological FLEXIBILITY

How does it feel to literally STRETCH YOUR BRAIN? We all know what flexibility is...but what about "psychological flexibility?" OK, maybe it's not that confusing...but what if we make it EVEN LESS CONFUSING? Learn what can happen to your wise mind when you allow space to free yourself from the version of yourself you think you want to be...you might surprise yourself.

Transcript

Neon Sweatshirts And Family Parties

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Welcome to the Wiseman Happy Hour. I'm John.

SPEAKER_02 0:07

I'm Kelly. Welcome.

SPEAKER_01 0:09

We're back. We're back. We're ready for another. I got a pen. I got notes. I got neon. I hope your neighbor is listening and watching.

SPEAKER_02 0:19

Yeah, for those who aren't watching the video, John's wearing a bright neon yellow. It's bright. Or green?

SPEAKER_01 0:26

I think it's a little bit of both. I don't know. It's like a highlighter, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 0:30

Sweatshirt, which, like, shout out to my old neighbor for inventing neon.

SPEAKER_01 0:34

He invented neon. You know why I bought this sweatshirt? One was for the color, but two, I looked at it and I was like, oh man, there's something different about it. And what I noticed is that in the pocket, there's another pocket.

SPEAKER_02 0:49

Whoa. Which fits your phone. Oh, I I really love a pocket within a pocket for the phone because it's like it's really stays secure. Yes. And they make it iPhone size. It's great. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

So I was like, oh, I'm sold. I was already sold on the color. Yeah, it's good. But the kangaroo pouch has a little pouch. Love it. For my little kangaroo.

SPEAKER_02 1:09

For your Joey. For my Joey.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

Not my Jishi. But if he could fit in there, there we go.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

Jishy can fit in mine. I can't fit under the bed, but I can fit in your pocket. Oh. But I bought it actually in Milwaukee. I was in Milwaukee this past weekend.

SPEAKER_02 1:23

Oh, nice. I didn't know that. How was it?

SPEAKER_01 1:26

It was great. It was my um oldest nephew's 16th birthday.

SPEAKER_02 1:30

Killian?

SPEAKER_01 1:31

Killian.

SPEAKER_02 1:32

Wow. 16.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

That's wild, right? That's wild. Yeah. So my grandma came and was the first one to leave because, not because of her age. She had a derby party to go to at her like retirement home.

SPEAKER_02 1:50

Oh my God. She had another party.

SPEAKER_01 1:53

So she came to the 16-year-old party, and then my mom showed me a picture on her phone of Nancy. Her name's Nancy, not my mom, my grandma, uh, in her like bonnet, her derby thing.

SPEAKER_02 2:04

I'm telling you, it's another thing that shows that like people thinking their 20s are like the best decade. It's like, I'm these people in retirement homes are living in living up.

SPEAKER_01 2:14

She's playing this dice game left, right, center, and just like crushing these other women, just taking their quarters. Like just slamming them down. Cottage industry.

SPEAKER_02 2:23

Oh my god, wow.

SPEAKER_01 2:24

So it was awesome. It was great seeing family, but I thought that was so funny that I was like, where's grandma going? My mom's like, she's got another party. I was like, what? She's got two parties today. Wow, incredible. Yeah, so it was his 16th birthday, and then the next day he had he just got a job, so he had a shift to work. So I got to drop him off at work.

SPEAKER_02 2:42

Where does he work?

SPEAKER_01 2:43

He works at a frozen custard place in Milwaukee called Cops. And he wears all white, like it's like a throwback. He has white pants, a white shirt, a black bow tie, paper hat, and the apron.

SPEAKER_02 2:58

Oh, they really it was amazing.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

So I was like, Killian, can I take you to work? He was like, Yeah, I don't. I mean, he's 16, he doesn't care about anything. He was just kind of like, sure.

SPEAKER_02 3:06

Did he tell you anything about the job?

SPEAKER_01 3:08

Every shift he works, he gets eight dollars to spend on whatever he wants there.

SPEAKER_02 3:14

I mean, eight bucks can't be getting you much.

SPEAKER_01 3:17

I know.

SPEAKER_02 3:17

Because I remember when I worked at Starbucks in high school, all shift drinks were free, and like you were supposed to cap yourself at two.

SPEAKER_01 3:27

Nobody did that. That see, when I worked as a Barista at Gloria Jeans coffee roasters in the mall, you would only get one drink per shift. Okay, it could be whatever you wanted, but it was one. Now people broke that rule, but right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:43

I mean, the early 2000s, I think, was like a wild time. Like Starbucks was like, do whatever you want. They told us anyone used reserves. Actually, they did offer it then. Really? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:58

I thought that was later, but okay.

SPEAKER_02 4:00

They offered it then, but I remember because I was like 16, I didn't need it. But they would always ask me, like, do you want to sign up for anything? I'm like, I have another 10 years of my parents' insurance. So I'm gonna milk this one. They used to always think I was older than I was because they would call my house to ask me to work on like Tuesday at noon. My mom was like, She's in high school. So no, she's not working.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

I'm gonna pick her up from school right now and get her, get her over there. People need their coffee.

SPEAKER_02 4:22

She's a child. Yeah, but it's like I was moving with the rest of them. But no, they would say to us, anyone you see fit, like any customer you feel moved to give a free drink, just do it. Like whenever. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 4:38

You know, if someone having a bad day, if somebody had the energy that spoke to you, give them a free drink.

SPEAKER_02 4:43

Give them a free drink. Anyone ever asks you to remake something, no questions asked, you remake it. If anyone asks you for any item off the menu and we have the ingredients, you make it.

SPEAKER_01 4:51

You know, you gotta be careful about that. I've I feel as though there's maybe a short story where somebody who's anti-capitalism might apply for that job just so they could their entire shift give everybody a free everything. Totally. And then word travels and there's lines outside this. I can already see it.

SPEAKER_02 5:12

Well, I think they've changed, I mean, probably because I was like in the capitalist wheel at 16.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

Like you love it.

SPEAKER_02 5:18

I really hate it. I actually have spent the whole week talking about how much I hate it and how it's funny that actually this has come up.

SPEAKER_01 5:27

Is it?

SPEAKER_02 5:29

Yeah, yeah. I talked about it with my mom.

SPEAKER_01 5:31

Oh, sorry, I was looking at our viewers in the camera. But do you think it's weird that they came up with it? Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:35

I was like, Don, do you like am I missing a reference?

SPEAKER_02 5:39

No, I was looking at the camera. I think at 16, it's like I wasn't questioning the same things. And actually, I really did think the company was so good because it did all that stuff. Yeah. And like was giving people health insurance and paying them like no other place was more.

SPEAKER_01 5:55

Well, I shouldn't say that, I don't know, but certainly coffee places weren't giving people health insurance, like Starbucks was.

Moving Costs And Asking For Help

SPEAKER_02 6:01

And they didn't drug test. And I remember asking my boss why, because we actually did have a few, a few colleagues who struggled numerous times. Um, but she was like, Well, Starbucks really believes in like second chances, like, you know, not and it's like now, knowing what I know as a social worker, like that's incredibly progressive to not bar people for having an addiction history or struggling with that. So there were a lot, I I really did like a lot of it. I also probably like it didn't understand like any corporate entity well enough then. I think most people don't.

SPEAKER_01 6:41

Or at least we're worried about other things at 16. Yeah. Hey, congrats to your Detroit Pistons, by the way. They almost went out of the first round of the playoffs as I I think like the number two seed, and they were down 3-1. They came back and they won that series against the Orlando Magic.

SPEAKER_00 7:00

Number one seed.

SPEAKER_01 7:01

So are they number one? They are. I thought the Celsius were. Oh, well, good. Well, let's that would have been even worse than if they would have lost.

SPEAKER_02 7:09

Are they the number one seed?

SPEAKER_00 7:10

I've well They probably are. Now they're in the playoffs, so all bets are off. But I think they are the one. I think they're the top seed in the Eastern Conference.

SPEAKER_01 7:18

Wait, let me check that. I think you're right.

SPEAKER_00 7:20

They almost got knocked off, but they came back from three to one.

SPEAKER_01 7:22

Yeah, against the Orlando Magic.

SPEAKER_00 7:24

Historic. Historic. They might be playing tonight, actually. They are against the Cleveland Cavaliers.

SPEAKER_01 7:30

Are you streaming it right now on your phone?

SPEAKER_00 7:32

Uh no.

SPEAKER_01 7:33

Um, so nice. I know. What about you? What's been going on with you two?

SPEAKER_02 7:46

I know. We were just talking about that. We're obviously still like, you know, kind of like prepping some stuff for the move. I mean, not in this apartment yet, but I was gonna say I know it looks the exact same. Um, like we called a couple moving companies. Well, that's huge. Well, that's I mean you gotta call a moving company. Yeah. I really think this like everything else, the amount that that the average price of that has gone up. I it just seems like it's tripled since the last time.

SPEAKER_01 8:14

I don't even I wouldn't even want to know.

SPEAKER_02 8:15

And it's sort of yeah, you're just sort of like, I guess that's just how everything is now.

SPEAKER_01 8:19

Is it four grand?

SPEAKER_02 8:20

No, no, no, no. No, it was much lower than that. But but I think the last time I moved, and I moved from a one bedroom, it was under a thousand dollars.

SPEAKER_01 8:32

Yeah. Do you pay them like there's a base rate and then every additional hour or something like that?

SPEAKER_02 8:38

One woman said to me every truck rent 15 minutes. Oh, um, and a truck, but yeah, I guess you'd probably I maybe.

SPEAKER_01 8:44

I guess it would have to be 15 minutes because how do you split up an hour?

SPEAKER_02 8:47

It's like yeah, you get two hours, which like I think they'll be able to take a look at.

SPEAKER_01 8:51

That's included, and then yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:53

Luckily, we haven't moved a whole house full of stuff. I mean, uh when I was a kid and my mom did that. Do you have a freight elevator?

SPEAKER_01 9:00

We have a regular elevator just, but you don't have a separate elevator for moving like large pieces of furniture. Don't think so.

SPEAKER_02 9:07

And in the new place it's just stairs, stairs.

SPEAKER_01 9:10

So definitely need movers, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:13

And they charge you more, I think, for stairs. Yeah, which that's okay. Yeah, but so we're doing that, and I'm really excited about that. You know, it's gonna be great. I think you're gonna really like the new place.

SPEAKER_01 9:26

I'm excited about it. So talk about the 20s. How about when your friends or you are moving and you get your friends to help you move? Yeah, totally, never enjoyable, yeah. No, not for me. No, it's so I mean, shout out to the friends who've volunteered, you know, like absolutely, and I'll do it for a case and you know, pizza. Right.

SPEAKER_02 9:50

I mean, I I have like a block with it. Like, if a friend had like a bunch of boxes and wanted me to come over and move, like I I honestly feel like I'd be so overwhelmed. Like, I get so overwhelmed with my own idea of it. But the fact that there's like a fear of like, what else are you gonna do? Is there like that motivates me? It's kind of like the feeling like I'm gonna get called to the principal's office if I'm not out of here on moving date helps me get my shit together. If it's for a friend, it's like no motivation, hard to feel the motivation.

SPEAKER_01 10:21

Being a friend isn't enough.

SPEAKER_02 10:22

Like, I'm I'm not good at stuff like that. I'm just not like manual labor. Yeah. Or like organization, I'm not great at, you know.

SPEAKER_01 10:34

And like you got some notes on that. That looks organized right there. You got some sticky notes on that thing.

SPEAKER_02 10:41

I literally wrote, and this is this is a joke because there is this is actually fine. But I Josh found a post-it note, another one of my famous post-it notes that just says grief work. And I looked at him, I'm kidding. I go, someone needs someone needs grief work. I don't know. File it away. The truth is file it away. The truth is, I definitely put it in their chart note and then just never threw out the post-it. That's what I do is I'll jot things and then I'll put it in my grief work my chart. But it is funny for someone to see just the words grief work on my desk. But yeah, that's going on with us.

SPEAKER_01 11:17

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 11:18

So yeah, and you know, we're going on this journey of having a baby and starting that process, and we're at the phase where we really want it to happen, and we have no clue when it is going to happen. Yes. So yeah, it feels like it feels very like vulnerable in that way, you know, and I do know. Yeah. Yeah, it's like you're ready and you want to do something and you're not there yet. And it's an interesting It doesn't just happen. It doesn't just happen.

SPEAKER_01 11:50

That's the thing that's really tough. That I remember about it. And from my experience, there's conversations about are we ready, are we not ready? And we had an episode on ready.

SPEAKER_02 12:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:03

And then when you come together and are like, we're well, let's do it.

SPEAKER_02 12:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:08

And it's like it you can't just pregnant that minute. Yeah, exactly. You can't all of a sudden it it happens. You there's so much that's involved in it. So that can be there's just a lot that goes along with that.

SPEAKER_02 12:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:21

So I can empathize.

SPEAKER_02 12:22

Yeah, it's like, yeah. And and I do find like it's helpful to relate to people on it. Like, I know that's you one could intuit that, but I've I've experienced that. And it's like, it's funny to think about, like, it is actually like a very rich source, like for my therapy and my relationship with myself, because it's like wanting something really badly and not yet having it. It's like interesting to see what comes up in you. I'll sometimes obsess, I'll have a part of me that starts to obsess about like ways to get it. You know, it's trying to like fix it. And then like a part that'll, you know, see someone else pregnant and suffer, you know. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 13:09

It kind of just like trying to figure out how to get that baby. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:16

Think about getting someone else's baby. Yeah. Code pink.

unknown 13:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:21

But yeah, for sure. It's like a lot of like striving and dog paddling and and like not being with myself.

SPEAKER_01 13:31

Mm-hmm. It's drawing the string on the bulletin board, connecting. If I make it a certain way. If I make it a certain way, it's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_02 13:42

Yeah, I'm like the person in the garage where the partner comes in and they're like, What are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 13:46

You're there's a whole wall full of the equations and the scenarios.

SPEAKER_02 13:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:52

Just mulling over it. Yeah. Been there.

SPEAKER_02 13:55

Yeah, trying to control it. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 13:58

My experience was from the outside, because you never know, it's coming so easy to everybody else. Everybody else wants to get pregnant and they just get pregnant. Yeah. Yeah. Everybody else wants to have a kid and they just have a kid. Yeah. Um, that's what it felt like to me when you're in the moment of wanting a child. You want to, you know, be pregnant as a couple, and it's maybe not happening or it's not happening on the timeline you want.

SPEAKER_02 14:26

Yeah. I mean, in life, it's like you gotta let go of the timelines, but it's hard.

SPEAKER_01 14:32

Really hard.

SPEAKER_02 14:33

I find it really hard.

SPEAKER_01 14:34

And then I would compare my age to my parents or to other people's ages.

SPEAKER_02 14:42

I actually literally did that in this episode.

SPEAKER_01 14:45

Like my brother, or you know, I would be like, well, wait a second. Okay, so I'm 30, whatever. I'm not, I mean, I'm I'm not anymore.

SPEAKER_04 14:54

I'm 25.

SPEAKER_01 14:57

Um, but when we were, you know, back in 2014 or whatever, 2013, 2014, when we were trying to get pregnant, you know, I'm thinking back, I'm like, okay, well, I'm this age. And when my dad was this age, that's how old I was. I was already in second grade or first grade or whatever. And I was like, oh my God, I'm so far behind. Yeah. So then I was playing all these mind games of well, am I gonna be like in a wheelchair when my kids are in college? I'm not gonna be able to like totally so just totally down that path. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:31

Yes. When you said Gillian was 16, I was like, my God, I wonder if I'll be like 56 when I have a, you know, like, or I'm like, I'll be 54 if I have one next year. You know, it's like, and it's so funny to do that because you're like, life brings so many things.

SPEAKER_03 15:47

Right.

SPEAKER_02 15:48

There's no like, oh, it'll be like this if it's this. It's all control when really like the vast expanse ahead of you is just overwhelming and it's like uncertainty. Yes. And you know, I'm really, I think we'll get into this a bit with our topic today, but I've been like noticing and like I it's like there's all these insights that I'll have that it's like I've always known this, and like in my clinical work talked about it in my conversations like with myself. Like sometimes I'll think that my wise mind sounds like you got this, like you got this. And I'm coming to learn that it doesn't sound like that at all. Like, that's another protective part of me that's like kind of trying to like convince me. And like what my like psychologically flexible wise mind state sounds like is nothing, it's like openness that has no words. And it's like, I'll think about this when it's like, oh, I'm talking with my doctor about pregnancy stuff, and I see there's a new note and I can feel fear in my body. And I started a little bit to like talk to that part and kind of like ask that part, can you let me go through this alone? Like as myself, and it's like quieter in my head, and I I feel more of that wise mind, and I'm like, I knew this, but like I didn't really like practice it. There was always a part coming up to be protective and say, like, you got this, and you can have anything you want, and you're this and you're that. And it's like that is not really what like the self sounds like. The self is like soft and just like walk forward, see what comes.

SPEAKER_01 17:37

Is there any manifesting getting blurred into that? That positivity stuff, yes, definitely.

SPEAKER_02 17:42

I think there is for sure. I don't think it's actually so magnetic to be there. I think to be like, let me let me have a new experience. Because sometimes those parts are really trying to protect me from like reliving old pain. But yeah, I mean, this kind of segues us a little.

SPEAKER_01 17:58

Well, it's you're not alone in it, it's difficult. Yeah. I remember it being a lot of difficult days, stretches, weeks, nights.

SPEAKER_02 18:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:09

Our neighbors, I think, are watching basketball. Are they? Yeah, I'm pretty sure. Huge sports fans. Yeah. Uh maybe pistons fans, even. Maybe. Maybe not.

SPEAKER_02 18:18

Maybe we can use the pistons to help us cope. I won't be doing that.

SPEAKER_01 18:22

Or be more psychologically flexible.

What Psychological Flexibility Means

SPEAKER_02 18:24

Yeah. Or yes. Okay. Be more psychologically flexible. This is our topic today. So, John, tell us about psychological flexibility.

SPEAKER_01 18:33

And I I brought my notes. Um, yeah, and I'll read um a definition from Stephen Hayes. Your favorite. One of your favorite.

SPEAKER_04 18:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:45

So it's kind of wordy, but psychological flexibility is the ability to contact the present moment more fully as a conscious human being, and to challenge or persist in behavior when doing so serves valued ends. Yeah. It's a mouthful.

SPEAKER_02 19:04

Yeah. And I like even the sense of contacting the present moment more fully.

SPEAKER_01 19:10

Another way to think about this is being more present in our lives and at the same time opening ourselves up to options. Yeah. Right. So being more flexible is not trying to avoid things or escape things, specifically more of like our internal stuff. Yeah. Really staying committed to our values. So, you know, doing behaviors that are observable and measurable that move us more towards our values and not fusing with beliefs or narratives that we think we have to follow because we can notice our thoughts and not act on them as well. So it's interesting too. I like this flexibility concept because it talks about what it's like to be inflexible.

SPEAKER_02 19:59

So I brought both of the yes. I I want to hear about the inflexibility.

SPEAKER_01 20:05

Um when we are more inflexible psychologically, we're closed off, we're mindless, and we're disconnected. Yeah. We're not engaged with our emotions, we're not engaged with our thoughts. When we're more closed off, we're also like fused with thoughts. We're not seeing outside of them. Yeah. So that's kind of the closed-off portion of it. Yeah. And then certainly we can think about mindlessness. We talk about how we're more rigid when we're living in the past or future.

SPEAKER_03 20:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:35

We're more mindless when we're attached to this one conceptualization of who we are.

SPEAKER_03 20:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:41

Whether that be I'm a certain way, I'm never going to change, like this is just the way I am. So we're more mindless when we're kind of living those things out. Yeah. We're not really stuck to a role. Stuck to them.

SPEAKER_03 20:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:53

And then we're more disconnected from like what's meaningful or like our vitality when we're not noticing our values. Yeah. And then we're not committing to them, which is through behaviors. Right. It's one thing to know our values, which is really important. It's another thing when fear is there or when any type of difficulty is there, are we still committing to them?

SPEAKER_02 21:13

So well, yeah, it seems like noticing the inflexibility is your first kind of gateway. Yeah. And truly like mindfully observing that when you can. Because I'm almost even thinking like I was reading that, like living in the past and the future. It's like the around like the pregnancy conversation, I can very easily like live in the future.

SPEAKER_01 21:38

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 21:39

Where it's like, okay, I'm gonna get pregnant within these months, and then you know, this will happen, and then I'll have a baby at this age, and then I'll move to this neighborhood at this time, and I'll Which might be a way, if we go back, that you're avoiding by living in the future, you're closing yourself off to this is a really difficult time for me, right?

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:01

Right. And you might be fused also with this idea if I just think positively enough, things will go my way, or even I can't think about the negative, like I have to stay positive. And then all of this mindless whatever we're doing, I'm not saying you're doing this, but then we might be missing out on our values, right? We might be missing out day to day and moment to moment. Oh, that could have been a really meaningful experience while I'm still going through this struggle in my life.

SPEAKER_02 22:27

Because they're really, you know, it's like I always tell clients like there is only now.

SPEAKER_01 22:31

Right.

SPEAKER_02 22:32

So like it's kind of like living in fantasy. What about reality is is maybe challenging to open up to and look at and be with.

SPEAKER_01 22:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:43

And even validating. I always loved how act would really validate the function. You know, this, there is a function to this, of course.

SPEAKER_01 22:52

Never judge the behavior. There's always a function to it.

SPEAKER_02 22:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:56

There was a somebody I was working with always arriving late, and so there wasn't much time to do any like mindfulness type of work. Yeah. Just kind of getting right into the meat of therapy. And finally, you know, kind of addressing it and them coming to their own realization. I, you know, them kind of noticing like, I've just really been avoiding getting on time because I don't really want to engage in a mindfulness practice. Yeah. It's like, okay, well, what do you think about that? And the person really was tapping into kind of this like closed off piece of I don't want to sit with myself. I don't, yeah, I just want to immediately come in and start talking. I don't want to sit in the quiet and in the stillness.

SPEAKER_03 23:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:40

There's probably a lot of stuff going on.

SPEAKER_03 23:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:43

There might be a lot of value in learning how to sit with some of this uncomfortable stuff.

SPEAKER_03 23:49

Right.

SPEAKER_01 23:49

Meaningful and vital experiences in our life are not always pleasant. In fact, a lot of the most vital and meaningful experiences are extremely painful in our lives.

SPEAKER_03 23:59

And effortful.

SPEAKER_01 24:00

And effortful. And so many people come to therapy thinking that the goal, the end goal is to just get through it as quick as they can and just be happy. Right. We would be doing ourselves a disservice to think that we can't have such rich and meaningful experiences when we're feeling any emotion.

SPEAKER_03 24:18

Yeah. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:19

But that doesn't mean it's pleasant. Of course not.

SPEAKER_03 24:21

Right.

SPEAKER_01 24:22

But that's what that's what vitality is more about is I, no matter my mood state, am I engaged in my life? Yeah. Am I alive? Am I alive? Am I engaged in my life in a way that's meaningful to me? Yeah. Right. And being really present in that.

SPEAKER_02 24:36

Yeah. It's almost like they say in psychoanalysis, like libido is that like life force. That's not necessarily just joy.

SPEAKER_01 24:43

Right.

Inflexibility Avoidance And Emotional Rules

SPEAKER_02 24:44

And you know, like I'm thinking of that person who like realized, like, okay, there's a function to the lateness. It has a function and really everything does. Yes. You know. I think it was like Aristotle who said, like, nature does nothing on accident. You know, that I think that's a helpful curiosity, right? Like, I wonder the function this serves. I totally give credit to anyone who can say, like, I don't want to sit with myself. And I think what can be nice is like going into right, like, like, would it be okay for us to talk about what you don't like about that? And almost you're kind of leading them into like noticing that, yeah. Not avoiding.

SPEAKER_01 25:26

It's noticing in real time when it's coming up so that people are becoming more flexible.

SPEAKER_02 25:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:33

In the space with you. And it's our job to point that out when the inflexibility is showing up. Right. Then we got into some fusion of and even attachment of conceptualized self because the person was saying how embarrassed they would be if they started crying.

SPEAKER_03 25:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:50

So then it was like, okay, like, so that's a thought that you're having. And what would that be like to be crying and embarrassed in front of people? And then it got into well, that was messaging I received from and programming I received from caregivers. Like you don't cry in front, you know. So it was like, okay, and you can cry.

SPEAKER_02 26:10

Yeah, that one attachment to conceptualize self-that's like a sneaky one that comes in, you know, like wanting to be a certain role. Like, or or even it's like I've actually done work on this and I'm realizing like act so beautifully could be useful in reflecting on it. I'm like on one with talking about pregnancy stuff. So forgive me, just because this is the stage I'm in. But you know, like I remember like saying to my friend, like, you know, maybe it'll be, you know, I'm 37 now. It's like, you know, maybe I won't get pregnant until I'm 40. And like that was like, I could feel like a real like deflated sense with that. And I had to kind of ask myself, like, what does that mean to me to be like a 40-year-old person that's pregnant? Like, what is what is kind of like the role there that I don't want to be and the role that I'm attached to now that I do want to be. Right. And really psychological flexibility is being free from like any real narrative there. Right. You know, it's like if I want pregnancy, what's the value of becoming a parent? Like what values am I living out by doing that?

SPEAKER_01 27:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:27

It's like love, connection, curiosity, growth.

SPEAKER_01 27:32

And do all of those things supersede a a number of age, right?

unknown 27:37

Right.

SPEAKER_01 27:38

Because all of those things will exist, my guess would be, and very fully exist if you're a parent at any age. Right. You know, you say it out loud and then you're like, wait, what? Like, and and I can say it as being a parent. It's like, it would be meaningful if I started my family at any age, probably. Right. You know, totally. So, yeah, open, centered, and engaged, right? How can we be more present? How can we notice our internal experience, tolerate them? And and even there, you know, you and I have been practitioners of DBT for a long time. Distress tolerance is so important. Teaching people how to be more open and centered when we're feeling more dysregulated.

SPEAKER_02 28:17

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_01 28:19

And engaged in our life, which is really hard.

SPEAKER_02 28:21

It's like when I'm struggling to tolerate a feeling, noticing that you're even having a feeling, right? This brings me now then to the self as context. It's like instead of it's like that you're trapped in this, like, I'm a person looking at the things happening to me. Yeah. It's like, and that those things are making me pissed, you know, or whatever. It's like that ability, flexibility to turn the attention to the inside, or they say, you know, bring your attention inside, allow it to go inward, and notice like your body, notice like what is the distress you're feeling and what is it like. Kind of like getting in that like almost like descriptive observer space kind of naturally gives you spaciousness, expansion to hold any feeling, and I mean any feeling can be tolerated. We often have like parts or beliefs that tell us it can't. Yeah. And it can. But yeah, like bringing that attention inward, that self, the self is the context for all these different feelings, instead of just like the world is coming at me.

SPEAKER_01 29:43

Yeah. When you notice yourself being flexible, when I notice myself being flexible, it can be an invigorating experience. This might not feel like psychological flexibility for other people because it might just come more naturally to them, but that doesn't mean it's not flexibility. I think about in a moment of high intensity distress, conversation, even conflict. For me, a high flexibility like move there would be to say, I'm sorry, I was wrong.

SPEAKER_03 30:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:17

I need to diffuse from the thought of you're not always right.

SPEAKER_03 30:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:21

Or the self as context, like maybe I have this conceptualized self of like, I'm smart. They people need to know I'm smart. So I need to double down on this. Right. And then I'm not even in the present moment because I'm thinking about my next thing I'm gonna say. Yeah. So it's like if I'm truly in the wrong, like taking ownership for that, right? Wow, that would be high flexibility for me. That would be a stretch, literally flexibility. That would be a stretch for me to do that.

SPEAKER_02 30:47

Yeah, totally, totally.

SPEAKER_01 30:49

Something I'll probably always be working on. Yeah. When it has happened, though, the few times that it has once, maybe. No, it it feels like that's like the wise mind. That's the yes, that's the embodiment, the engagement I want in my life more.

SPEAKER_02 31:07

So and it is, I think, this psychological flexibility state. Like you even kind of closed your eyes, as you said. Like there is like a sacred kind of like felt sense that comes with it. And I feel that wise mind self-energy is like that, where it's like, and I'll even hear it in clients, like and can sense like when they're in that place. I'll ask them something and they'll be like, Yes. You know, it you can hear the feeling with it. It's like almost like you can hear the spaciousness and like the prayer in it almost. It's it's interesting. And and for me, the opposite is true too. Like, no, you know, there's like this if I'm being rigid or inflexible, or it's like even in the positive direction that I noticed earlier, it's like it's this really intense language in my head and really psychological flexibility. It's flexibility, right? It's like freedom, it's fluidity, and you feel that in your body. Yeah. And if you don't feel that in your body, I honestly think it's it's uh helpful to just like wonder with non-judgmental stance like where might I be inflexible, right? Am I attached to a certain like concept of self right now? Yeah. Am I living in the future or the past? Am I fused with a certain thought? Yes. Do I even know my values?

SPEAKER_01 32:37

Absolutely. And that's just such an important question. Inflexibility and rigidity can come in when we're acting from a place of other people's values or society's values.

SPEAKER_02 32:47

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 32:49

If so, that's all that's an ongoing problem. I always tell people too if you've never done values work before, you're not behind.

SPEAKER_03 32:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:56

Right. Sometimes people get very panicked. And we're living an unvalued life. I know I haven't been living my values. I haven't been thinking about them. Does that mean my life has not been meaningful or mean and that doesn't mean that at all? No, I agree. And values shift, right? So that is something to start with, though, is in order to build more flexibility and explore this, let's think about what is important to you.

Values Wise Mind And Owning Mistakes

SPEAKER_02 33:23

You know, it's like putting that kind of language and labeling to it is so nice. And I think it's funny, it's one of those things where it's like the more you do that, the less you need the thing. Like you, I literally don't have to walk around every day thinking like I value love and connection. Right. It's like just naming it at any point and like living with allegiance to that, committing to action in that direction. Over time, like the the values really become just this general sense of wise mind. That's like, is this me moving toward my values? The answer is sort of like yes or no. And you know, you don't even have to know exactly in that language, but I do think weirdly, it's one of those where we have to do it to not do it. Right. Do it to like have it become intuitive.

SPEAKER_01 34:10

I I also think another way to tap into values is maybe to think about reverse engineering it. And because a lot of times people will say things like, uh, oh, that day was a good day. And I like to have people think about how did you show up in that day?

SPEAKER_03 34:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:28

So how did you show up in a in a good day? What does that mean to you? Right.

SPEAKER_02 34:33

What yeah, and sometimes I don't know if you get this, I'm sure you do. Sometimes I'll get clients where I'll on a good day, like, you know, like what did you notice you did or how you reacted to things? Or and they'll be like, nothing, you know, nothing. Nothing just worked out. And I'll say, Well, and then I'll have to really double click on nothing. Like, so does that mean you just like sat there and didn't say anything or didn't move? And have to really kind of lean into that, get some irreverence in there. Yeah, exactly. And then they might say, Well, no, I, you know, talk to this person and and what was that conversation like? And so they can start to become aware of their own, their own kind of voice and participation in the good experiences or the you know, like meaningful experiences.

SPEAKER_01 35:20

Yeah. A silly example though of psychological flexibility as a way to increase vitality in your life or having more rich and meaningful experiences is that silly movie Yes Man with Jim Carrey. Oh, yeah. I love that movie. It's silly, it's funny. And if you cannot be attached to certain things and just be more open and saying yes more in your life to experiences, you're not living too much in the future, the fear, the past. Yeah, you know, it's not a people pleasing type of thing where it's like a yes kind of person, I'm a people pleaser. It's more, yeah. I remember the movie being more just being open.

SPEAKER_03 35:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:00

And how much more vital this person's experiences became, or you know, by just saying yes and no more no. It was kind of a silly embodiment of it, but sometimes life and increasing flexibility is when that voice is telling you no, yeah, getting some space from that, and maybe leaning into a yes.

SPEAKER_02 36:22

Yeah. The most inner transformation we have is from like unexpected experiences and like living through them. And it like, you know, it's has to do with like memory reconsolidation, you know, of pain and trauma and like developmental patterns, you know, to like do something unexpected is so healing. And yeah, it's like something you would normally say no to. Taking that leap of faith and saying yes and having a different experience and watching yourself go through that is transformational.

SPEAKER_01 36:55

It's so yeah, and committing to it, right? So saying the yes and doing so doing. Yeah, the actual doing. Absolutely. And if I remember correctly from that movie, there's a scene where they is Zoe Dechanel.

SPEAKER_02 37:06

She's great in it.

SPEAKER_01 37:07

They're in the airport, and they're just gonna pick a destination to go to, and it ends up being Lincoln, Nebraska, I think. And so they go to a Cornhusker game or something. Yeah, so it's they could have easily bailed on that and been like, it's gotta be cabo.

SPEAKER_02 37:25

It's gotta be. Yeah, and the behavior is so powerful. It's like it is a very powerful breaking down of, I would say, like developmental patterns. Yeah, you know, mindfulness and diffusion from unhelpful beliefs. It gives you that flexibility to do something meaningful to you, not someone else, you know, not some vague other. Right. Yeah, do something valuable to you. Yeah. Psychological flexibility.

SPEAKER_01 38:12

Yeah. Get your stretches in.

SPEAKER_02 38:15

Yeah, stretch that brain. Really, and really, like it's a kind of it's a synonym for wise mind, you know, the soul, the soul, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:27

I took a philosophy class in undergrad. There was the title of the class was The Soul.

SPEAKER_02 38:31

The soul. I loved it. It was great. Oh my god, what'd you read?

SPEAKER_01 38:34

Uh, anything that had to do with the soul, anybody's conceptualization of the soul. Wow, any philosopher who had writings on it, it was great.

SPEAKER_02 38:41

Yeah, Descartes, maybe?

SPEAKER_01 38:43

Definitely, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:45

Wow, I love it.

SPEAKER_01 38:46

But that was I was that professor. I took uh as many of his classes as I could because he was just amazing. He actually was a huge, huge uh Freud and young guy.

SPEAKER_02 38:57

Maybe we should do a young episode and a Freud episode. I mean, I would. What's their version of psychological?

SPEAKER_01 39:05

Do we get to have cigars and wear yeah spectacles? You could be Freud or young. Which one would you want to be?

Saying Yes And Unexpected Healing

SPEAKER_02 39:15

I'd want to be young, yeah. Great. I mean, I do love Freud. I do. Yeah. I you know what I heard on on a podcast? Like Jung's this woman he like for years and years collaborated with, who was at first one of his students. Okay. Which, like, you know, they always have these students who then work with them and then date them and whatever. It's different time. But Marie Louise von France. Austria. Yeah, yeah. Marie Louise von France, like, was in his class and she was invited with a bunch of other students to like a breakfast at his house or something. This is Jung. Jung, yeah. And like the other students like went on the way there to like some lagoon to like look at fish or something, and she was the only one that went up to the house. And Jung was there, like chatting with her, and he ended up telling her that he had a patient who lived on the moon. And she was like confused, and she was like, What you know, what do you mean? What do you mean? And he like went on and on to talk about her living on the moon and like being a farmer on the moon and like all these things. And it was like this elaborate metaphor to show her that like what happens in the patient's psyche is primary, and like what happens in their life is secondary. Like you enter the space as a therapist with that like integrity of like what they experience is primary. You join them there, which I thought was so moving. I was like, it it honestly has inspired me since I heard it. Because sometimes I will, as a human being, like kind of judge something I'll hear if I'm like, well, this is you know, judgment maladaptive. This is don't do that, you know. Like there is a part of me that will just be like an everyday person thinking that. And it's like so helpful to really like enter and explore and notice like the function and the system working in a way and honoring that, and then like offering these other options, considering them, allowing the psyche the chance to see like there are these other opportunities. But I loved that. Like a patient who lived on the moon. I thought that was so cool. Farmer. Farmer on the moon. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:25

Didn't Oliver Sacks have a book called like an anthropologist on Mars or something like that? No, Oliver Sachs?

SPEAKER_03 41:32

No.

SPEAKER_02 41:33

I mean the name, I'm familiar with the words.

SPEAKER_01 41:37

He uh didn't he write also that book, The Woman Who Mistook Her husband for a hat or something like that. Like he writes about like very like neurological like anomalies that people came to him and like all these things. And I I think the title of one of his books that I read was like Anthropologist on Mars or something.

SPEAKER_02 41:57

Oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_01 41:58

Which is a cool title.

SPEAKER_02 41:59

So cool. I'm realizing I'm feeling self-conscious because I'm like, I probably really mistold that story, but it's something like the essence of it is the same. That's our whole podcast that he's telling things. I'm like, oh my god, someone better look up that story with the case.

SPEAKER_01 42:10

I said the pistons were the second seed, they're the first seed. Are they? I don't know, but we can let it lie. That's okay, right?

SPEAKER_00 42:18

This isn't a factual podcast.

SPEAKER_01 42:20

I mean, no, we're talking about high-level concepts here. Yeah. Or low-level concepts.

SPEAKER_02 42:26

I know. High level, low level, low level. All of it. Everything in between, medium level.

SPEAKER_01 42:31

Medium.

SPEAKER_02 42:32

My niece, like someone said to her, you have my oldest niece, you have two younger sisters, two little sisters. She goes, No, I have a little sister and a medium sister. Oh, that's adorable. That's so cute.

SPEAKER_01 42:46

Which that makes sense. Yeah. That would be a child.

SPEAKER_02 42:49

No.

SPEAKER_01 42:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:50

So cute.

SPEAKER_01 42:51

Oh my god. So if you're thinking about size, yeah, yeah. That makes total sense. Accurate. Let's be accurate here. You're small, medium, and large.

SPEAKER_02 42:59

Yeah. A little sister and a medium sister.

SPEAKER_01 43:02

Get your act together.

SPEAKER_02 43:03

Um, okay, so let's move into our how was it? Is it? Oh, I didn't, I forgot to mention this.

SPEAKER_01 43:09

And how do you even read that?

SPEAKER_02 43:11

I had this really crazy dream.

SPEAKER_01 43:12

And that's what this is?

SPEAKER_02 43:14

Yeah. This is something I said to Josh about it. Get thrown out of a cruise, you'll make it to India. So you said it in your after explaining my dream to him. I had this dream where I was on a cruise and I got like shot out of the cruise, like into water. The cruise like flipped upside down and I got like shot out. And I swam to shore, and there were these like guys on shore. And I was like, first I asked them what their names were, and their names were like Arun and something else. And then we're I'm like walking with them. I'm like in their group now, and I'm walking with them and I'm like, where are we? And they're like, This is India. Speaking of young, I really need a Jungian analyst to interpret this dream. Cause to me, I'm like, did India represent to me in my Western mind like some. Zen state or something, you know, psychological bugwan. Yeah. Which was in India partially. It was. Yeah. That little ashram. But like, and then I was like, this is India. And the dreamer was like, this is awesome. Like, I was like obsessed with it. And I went to like climb this mountain and learned that like basically there was like no gravity in India. It's like zero gravity. So like I like went up this mountain. It didn't even have anything to climb on. And I just kind of like went to the top. And then I didn't fall down like at the top.

SPEAKER_01 44:37

Sounds incredible.

SPEAKER_02 44:38

I mean, it was incredible. I was like, I love India. And then somehow I was back in the um the cruise? The cruise. Almost like living out the same scene. And I was like trying to decide where I was going to be when it flipped again. And I literally was saying to myself, like, and I was with Josh this time. And I was like, do we want to be like in line for the food again?

SPEAKER_01 45:03

Huge question.

SPEAKER_02 45:05

It's so embarrassing. Do we really want to wait in line for the food when we get shot out of here? And then somehow there was like a dance involved. And the next time that it like sh flipped over.

SPEAKER_01 45:17

I think you need to find an o-show, is what this is.

SPEAKER_02 45:20

Yeah. I'm I don't know. I mean, to me, it's like the fact that it was called India and I liked it so much and felt so good. Yeah. There's something there that's like a touchstone. Like, like almost like I'm getting shot out into like cold water. But really, like if you can survive that, you'll make it to India. That's what I said to John. If you get shot out, you'll make it to India. And you'll be like, this is awesome. There's zero gravity, which is the opposite of getting like shot out of something into water. It's like I'm floating on air. So I think there's something like a maybe a hero's journey in there a little bit with a little bit of humor in the middle. I also made bacon tacos in the middle of it. And I was like really wanting to eat them when my group of friends is like, let's go climb the mountain. I was kind of like, I just made these tacos. Like, I really want to eat.

SPEAKER_01 46:14

It's I am so fascinated how with what vivid memory you have for your dreams. I cannot remember my dreams.

SPEAKER_02 46:22

This dream was so goddamn vivid.

SPEAKER_01 46:25

That's real vivid.

Jung’s Moon Farmer And Therapist Curiosity

SPEAKER_02 46:26

It was what I think what helped me remember it is I told Josh immediately. And I think they say that helps you remember your dreams if you share them or write them.

SPEAKER_01 46:33

That also just made me this is not related to what you're saying, the hero's journey. Yeah. Have you read some of these reviews of the new Odyssey movie that's coming out?

SPEAKER_02 46:41

No. What are the reviews saying?

SPEAKER_01 46:42

Well, they're saying it. I don't know if people have seen the full movie or if it's the new trailer that came out. Apparently, they went with just American accents.

SPEAKER_04 46:55

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 46:56

So the the title of the article was something to be effective. Well, that's a choice. Yeah, it is. Um because usually, and I didn't realize this, I'm not, you know, the hugest film historian, though I like film. When in doubt, go British.

SPEAKER_02 47:12

That's what they always do. But that's also unrealistic because these are Greek.

SPEAKER_01 47:15

It is. Yeah. But it gives a sense when you're watching a movie, like an epic like this, yeah. Of some sort of like not American. It gives like more like history to it, and it gives like a gravitas. A little bit. Just an over. So when in doubt, do British.

SPEAKER_02 47:36

Yeah, just like vaguely.

SPEAKER_01 47:38

So the person in the article was like, it sounds like they're standing outside of like a Starbucks in Buffalo, New York, or something, just like talking. At one point, apparently before a battle, um, Matt Damon says, Let's go! Like in an American accent.

SPEAKER_02 47:54

Wow, yeah, Matt Damon. So even Matt Damon being in it.

SPEAKER_01 47:58

Hero's Journey. So I I really want to see that movie. Yeah, amazing. I'm really excited to see it.

SPEAKER_02 48:03

I trust him, but that is a choice. You know what might have influenced that choice? Wasn't there a movie Helen of Troy with Brad Pitt where he played Achilles? That was just Troy. Troy, sorry, Troy. Wasn't it? They did like, I think they did like Greek accents, and I think it was pretty rough.

SPEAKER_01 48:20

It was off-putting. It was like, ooh.

SPEAKER_02 48:23

Yeah, I think they did some kind of accent. And Brad Pitt's a good actor, and I remember being like, what's going on here?

SPEAKER_01 48:30

And I think I think doing British is almost like brainwashing people to not think about it. Yeah. Because the example they gave, which I was like, I didn't think about that once, and why didn't I think about it? Was they chose to do that mini-series Chernobyl? Yeah. British. Those were all Russians. Oh, I never vague accent. It's like a director was famous for the apparently for that Chernobyl one saying, Well, doing Russian accents is I think he said something like it's stupid. Like nobody would want to sit through that. So they just went British.

SPEAKER_02 49:12

God, it's like our Western bias. Yeah, people don't can't relate to the characters.

SPEAKER_01 49:17

So anyway, Hero's Journey. Wow. Sorry, that was a long way around again.

SPEAKER_02 49:23

No, I mean I'm interested. I mean, I want to see it.

SPEAKER_01 49:25

I do want to see it.

SPEAKER_02 49:26

Now I really want to see it because it's going to be like Matt Damon, like at a Duncan commercial, but like in the Odyssey.

SPEAKER_01 49:33

Wouldn't it be great if he's on, he just he's rowing, grabs a duncan. Yeah, he's got like a coffee.

SPEAKER_02 49:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:41

And then and then Ben Affleck's like rubbing his shoulders. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:44

Yeah. How are they in movies like not together? I mean, they're like attached to that. I don't know. I heard someone say they're like, Matt Damon should become an Affleck. I just think that would be easier for everybody.

SPEAKER_01 49:54

Yeah, it's pretty fun.

SPEAKER_02 49:56

Totally. That's fun comments.

SPEAKER_01 49:57

Completely.

SPEAKER_02 49:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 49:58

Whoa, drop my path.

SPEAKER_02 49:59

How wise is it?

SPEAKER_01 50:00

All right. Our how wise is a question is.

SPEAKER_02 50:03

Oh, aphorisms.

SPEAKER_01 50:04

Oh, aphorisms.

unknown 50:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:06

How wise is it to use like aphorisms.

SPEAKER_01 50:11

To use them.

SPEAKER_02 50:13

Well, kind of to use them to like explain situations. Like, you know, something my mom says a lot is like, Tell me. They're borrowing from Peter to PayPal. Like, I've heard you say that. Yeah, I I do say that. I think programming. Yeah, like for but I think my parents have the both do that, and I think their parents did it.

SPEAKER_01 50:36

An aphorism is a concise, memorable, and often witty statement that expresses a general truth principle or wise observation about life.

SPEAKER_02 50:48

Yeah. Penny wise, pound foolish.

SPEAKER_01 50:51

Hmm. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:56

Yep. I mean, I think I'm learning as we're looking at these. I love these. Do I think they're wise? I don't know, but I I really do.

SPEAKER_01 51:03

Well, I think that's a good distinction. I love them too. And are they always wise? Maybe not. Yeah. I do like them though.

SPEAKER_02 51:09

Are there any others on there?

SPEAKER_01 51:11

Well, no. But yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_02 51:14

Um common aphorisms.

SPEAKER_01 51:16

Aphorism. I'm gonna get a better list. Examples. Um let's see. Loading, buffering. Life is short, art is long.

SPEAKER_02 51:34

I've never heard that.

SPEAKER_00 51:35

That's the Odyssey.

SPEAKER_01 51:37

Hippocrates? Um well pop culture ones do or do not. There is no try. That's Yoda.

SPEAKER_02 51:45

Oh, I like that. I'm thinking of don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

SPEAKER_01 51:49

Actions speak louder than words. Yeah. Don't judge a book by its cover. Yeah. A penny saved is a penny earned. Penny earned. Children are meant to be seen and not heard.

SPEAKER_02 52:00

This is the second time I've heard that today.

SPEAKER_01 52:02

The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. With great power comes great responsibility, Spider-Man.

unknown 52:11

Right.

SPEAKER_02 52:12

Yeah, some of the sources you're like, what?

SPEAKER_01 52:15

Um, yeah, there's tons of them.

SPEAKER_02 52:17

I don't know if this one counts, but I always like to. It's an Aristotle one of to avoid criticism, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing. I like that.

SPEAKER_01 52:28

Early to bed, early to rise makes a man healthy, wealthy, and wise.

SPEAKER_02 52:32

Is that Ben Franklin?

SPEAKER_01 52:34

It doesn't give me the source on this website. Give a person an inch. Take a mile. Uh if you lie down with dogs, you wake up with fleas.

SPEAKER_02 52:46

That one like feels intense. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:49

Right? Is that like um uh xenophobic?

SPEAKER_01 52:55

Oh, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 52:56

I think it's more like uh I I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 53:01

How about this one? You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea.

SPEAKER_02 53:07

It's like okay.

Dreams India And Movie Accent Choices

SPEAKER_01 53:09

Pretty dark, like it.

SPEAKER_02 53:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:11

You made your bed. Now you had a lie in it.

SPEAKER_02 53:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:15

East or west, home is best.

SPEAKER_02 53:19

One that Josh and I say, which we borrowed from a friend, is right pocket, left pocket. Like if he pays for something or I pay for something. I mean, we have a joint credit card now, so this happens very little, but like if something happens where we can't use it, right pocket, left pocket.

SPEAKER_01 53:33

There you go. You can lead a horse to water. That's sometimes what therapy is.

SPEAKER_02 53:39

Yeah. Yep. Oh god, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:42

I mean, that's what life is. I mean, you could have the horse dying of thirst and the water being right there. Yeah. And sometimes it's just not drinking it.

SPEAKER_02 53:56

And you're really that. And we're no better. Sometimes we do that too, but I mean, I almost think I'm the worst culprit as a therapist, sometimes in my own life.

SPEAKER_01 54:06

Um measure twice, cut once. We already talked about that.

SPEAKER_02 54:11

Which we did talk about.

SPEAKER_01 54:12

Yeah. So I love these. I think yeah. I think what's wise about them is they get people thinking in a different way. It's just a different way. It's like metaphors.

SPEAKER_02 54:22

Yeah. Which are so wise.

SPEAKER_01 54:24

Which are are huge within act and and therapy to use metaphors. So I think a very concise way of to get people to think about something.

SPEAKER_02 54:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:36

I think can be really wise to use.

SPEAKER_02 54:38

Yeah, it definitely helps with like understanding of things very quickly.

SPEAKER_01 54:43

Right. Like that horse to water one, it's like boom, you're already there. You're like, what am I missing here? It's right in front of me.

SPEAKER_03 54:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:49

Right. Or what am I not doing?

SPEAKER_03 54:51

Right.

SPEAKER_01 54:52

You know, the answer's right there. So I think sometimes we as therapists, because we like to, I shouldn't say we, all of us, but I think I like to talk and like to get into it and use language sometimes, maybe too much when some just the simpler one-off might be really wise and useful.

SPEAKER_02 55:10

Penny save, been earned. Ben ears. Penny saved is a pen ear.

SPEAKER_00 55:17

What does that really mean?

SPEAKER_02 55:18

I mean, it's like, is that involved in investments? Or it's like, no, pennies saved.

SPEAKER_04 55:25

Come on.

SPEAKER_02 55:25

Oh, well, it's like if you the minute you earn a penny and you spend it, it's like, bye. Like, you didn't really earn it.

SPEAKER_00 55:32

But then wouldn't it be a penny earned should be saved? Penny earned should be saved.

SPEAKER_02 55:38

When you save a penny, you're really earning it.

unknown 55:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:44

You've really earned it when you've saved it.

SPEAKER_04 55:47

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 55:48

Yeah, it is one of those things that you just say it and you know what it means, but then you when you slow down, you're like, what does that mean?

SPEAKER_03 55:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:56

What does borrowing from Peter to Pay Paul is like you're you're out over your your um just shaking the dirt.

SPEAKER_01 56:08

A penny saved is a penny earned means that money you avoid spending is just as valuable as money you earn, as both increase your net worth without the effort of labor.

SPEAKER_02 56:21

Okay. Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 56:24

Because you save a penny, it'll accrue interest.

SPEAKER_02 56:27

Oh, oh, oh, yeah. Okay. If we're including like interest on that.

SPEAKER_01 56:30

If you think about it, like if you save things, don't spend theories of compound interest.

SPEAKER_00 56:34

So saving is wise.

unknown 56:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:37

Yeah. Well that yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:39

But let's take that, for example, because I always have to be devil's advocate, right? Yeah. Please do. Like. Could we argue that these aphorisms are are getting in the way of psychological flexibility?

SPEAKER_01 56:53

Oh, for sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:54

Like, is saving always wise? They're a little one note. They don't leave a lot of room for nuance. They can be one note.

SPEAKER_02 57:00

You're so right. Well, you know, right when you said that, like devil's advocate, I thought of the devil you know is better than the devil you don't.

SPEAKER_00 57:06

The devil wears product of two is better than the devil wears product one.

SPEAKER_02 57:10

My mom said it's not.

SPEAKER_01 57:11

Oh, Sarah saw it with her mom.

SPEAKER_02 57:13

Did she like it?

Aphorisms Helpful Shortcuts Or Rigid Rules

SPEAKER_01 57:14

I think she liked it. Yeah, it's cute. I heard it was like a lot. I don't know if she liked it better than the first one.

SPEAKER_02 57:18

Yeah, I think the first one is like genuinely pretty.

SPEAKER_01 57:21

Yes, I mean, I think that's the difficulty with such a concise. It has to be concise. It's it has to be almost all or nothing in certain ways, or or general in certain ways, to make the point. If you live by it though, or treat it as rule, yeah, that yeah, I think you're right. I think it it can be very rigid.

SPEAKER_03 57:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:44

I mean, it often can be kind of like principles that like parts are operating on, right? The devil you know is better than the devil you don't. It's like protect against this thing that even resembles a past trauma. And it's sort of like this is a new moment, and you're in a different place.

SPEAKER_01 58:02

Right. Or it just completely comes from more Western Yeah. A lot of them can come from more privileged, yeah, white, right, American type of context.

SPEAKER_03 58:16

Right.

SPEAKER_01 58:17

Because not everyone has a penny to save, right? Like not people can't save.

SPEAKER_03 58:22

Oh god, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:23

Um yeah, it's like you kind of have to be psychologically flexible with it. Like hold hold it lightly.

SPEAKER_01 58:30

Action speak large.

SPEAKER_02 58:31

Better safe than sorry.

SPEAKER_00 58:34

Yeah, like that could be so unwise.

SPEAKER_01 58:36

That could be so rigid. Yeah, and and not flexible at all, right? I mean because being safe than sorry is the complete opposite of the film Yes Man.

SPEAKER_02 58:47

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_01 58:48

It's like don't take any chances.

SPEAKER_02 58:49

Don't take any chances in your life. Better safe than sorry. Or how about this? Practice makes perfect.

SPEAKER_00 58:56

Yeah, I don't think these are wise.

SPEAKER_02 59:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:00

I think but you you could see through the idea of you know, of course, nothing is perfect, but sticking with something could help you, right? Sure, yeah. So I think that's the I think holding like you just said, holding it lightly, I don't think I would ever say practice makes perfect for a lot of reasons. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:22

One, because perfect is in it, but so maybe there's a a different one for that, but how about there's some here's some good ones. A stitch in time saves nine.

SPEAKER_00 59:34

Yeah, what does that mean?

SPEAKER_02 59:36

Fixing a small problem immediately prevents a large problem later.

SPEAKER_00 59:40

I mean, I sometimes wise. That's that can be useful. We could do a whole episode on like breaking these down and ranking them. Yeah. Because some of these like left pocket, right pocket, I have no issue with. Yeah. I feel like it's something we'll say to each other to like calm each other down when we're worried about like who's paying for what, who's you know, and it's like I feel like that's a calming, soothing. So let me play a devil's advocate with that.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:02

Somebody might feel like everything always has to be reciprocated or everything has to be like 50-50 all the time in a relationship. And relationships aren't like that sometimes. So I think context play like if it's paying for something that makes that's a concrete example, right? Yeah. So I think all of these we could poke holes in for sure. For sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:22

And there's some that contradict, right? Like birds of a feather flock together and then opposites attract.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:27

Opposit attract, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:28

Yeah, that's totally necessity is the mother of invention.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:31

So maybe you tell yourself some of these just to feel better.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:37

Find the ones that reinforce what you're already doing.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:40

You're already doing. The early funnel is better save than Zari. Or the early bird. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:46

What if I want to sleep in? What if I want to sleep in? I don't want to get up early. Any saves? I want to spend.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:52

Absence makes the heart grow fonder.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:55

Sodas tons of time together. Absence.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:00

Well, you know, they say like there's a lot of research, like especially with parenting, like, and they do this research a lot of times on like fathers, that like time spent away from children does actually make you feel less connected to them and less like love for them if you're like always at work or always traveling. Yeah, that would definitely be. There's like research that shows like dads who are with their kids more, like feel this sense of love more easily and readily.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:27

And then it's like somebody that is very around, right? And then when they're not that they have to be there every single moment, but then when they're gone for a little bit longer, then you kind of notice that and then you you're more grateful for it. Yeah, yeah. So that that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:42

Yeah, absence only makes the heart grow fonder if there's like a really steady current of like security and attachment.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:48

Yeah, absence makes the heart grow fonder when the someone's mostly not absence. Yeah. When someone's almost never ab saying. When when somebody has perfect attendance, yeah, yeah, and they have a rain day off, you're really gonna miss someone.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:02

Then you're really gonna be like, man, why aren't they here? I need to copy their homework.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:06

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:08

Well, I I still think there is some wisdom with them.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:14

It's not zero. It's not zero. It's not zero. Some are certainly better than others.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:20

I hate 'em. Some you do. No, but some of them rub me the wrong way. Yeah. I think some of them are. Like as a perfectionist, practice makes perfect. Yeah, that's a bad one. Like, I need to relearn the throw that one out. For me.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:32

For everyone.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:34

Sure, okay. For everyone.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:36

Practice is helpful. Practice is helpful. Depending on what the thing is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:40

That's the difficulty. Yeah. I remember having a a basketball coach once do a riff on that in practice once and said, perfect practice makes perfect. And I was like, oh god.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:58

Oh god, somebody get this guy a therapist.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:03

Exercise, whatever we're doing.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:05

People who put their life force energy into like coaching a children's team.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:09

Yeah. So it's like the practice has to be perfect in order to make the game perfect. Yeah, it's like we have to be that on top of it. Yeah. It's not just about practice. Yeah. It's not Alan Iverson talking about practice.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:24

Perfect practice makes perfect. And then when you guys play perfect, I can sleep at night.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:30

It's like that's the rest of us. When you play perfect, I have perfect sex with my husband.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:37

Well, we solved it.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:38

Well, if you've made it this far in the episode, my hat's off.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:41

If you've made it this far, I'm hot again. It's probably hot to my hands. I think it's the neon.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:47

It's vibrating. I also wear it. It's hot in here. You're wearing a sweatshirt I'm wearing a sweatshirt.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:52

Uh, you can find me at butzbutz. Jonathan at gmail.com. Uh email me questions or if you have thoughts, any favorite aphorisms. Yeah, I'd love to know what your favorite is.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:04

You can reach me if you want to work with me or um talk about the pod, send some aphorisms, send topic ideas. Um you can reach me at kkpsychotherapy.com, send me an inquiry there on the inquiry page. And Josh.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:19

You can find me at joshbayerfilms.com. Bayer is in the aspirin. I have retired joshstarr.star.films.com. And I'd like to shout out the Yusu album, Yusu. Right. Girls not. And uh yeah, it's called Foundry by Yusu, and it is very hard to describe. It's kind of jazzy, experimental, electronic. I guess she's also a cook. How do you spell that? Y U S U. She has, I was looking her up. She has these um um polyphonic eating supper clubs.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:00

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:01

Where she'll make dinner for everyone. It's a multi-course meal, and then she DJs. Oh, that's cool.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:07

Wait, wait, explain that again. Sorry, I zoned out for a second.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:09

Um kind of lost maturity vlog there. She um she's really boring and she's she makes these meals and then she DJs for the meal. She like has like music that she'll kind of pair with each chord.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:23

It's like a dinner party.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:24

I I'm only just now knowing this. I was like, I just listened to this album 20 times while working and also to sleep.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:30

We appreciate Blanket Forest for the music. We appreciate Blanket Force for the music. Thank you so much for going along on this flexibility journey.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:37

Yeah, thank you so much to everyone, and we'll see you. We'll talk to you next week.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:41

Bye.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:43

The Wisemind Happy Hour podcast is for entertainment purposes only, not to be treated as medical advice. If you are struggling with your mental health, please seek medical attention or counseling.