what's your FAVORITE form of THERAPY? (feat. Ethan Krasman MSW)

CBT, DBT, psychodynamic, ACT, EMDR...you might be familiar with some (or all) of these acronyms. Therapy can be taught in many forms, and we all have our preferences (both as therapists and clients.) BUT: is it possible that these various approaches have more in common than meets the eye? 

Transcript

Welcome And Quick Catch Up

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Okay, welcome to the Wisemind Happy Hour. I'm Kelly. And I'm John.

SPEAKER_03 0:09

Welcome. We're baby. Welcome, we're back.

SPEAKER_00 0:11

And we have a guest.

SPEAKER_03 0:13

We do.

SPEAKER_00 0:13

Who we're going to bring in right away because he's here. Yes. He's right next to us. He's right before us. Welcome to the pod, Ethan Krasman, MSW.

SPEAKER_03 0:24

Hello social worker.

SPEAKER_00 0:26

Thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_03 0:28

Happy to be here.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

Oh my God. Well, we're going to get into everything, Ethan, in a bit, but we're going to check in first just with our lives and what's been going on with us, and then we'll get into it.

Anniversary Night With Interactive Art

SPEAKER_00 0:41

So, John, what's new with you?

SPEAKER_03 0:42

Uh, I just celebrated 13 years of marriage. It was my wedding anniversary. Which I know you all have your anniversary coming up. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 0:51

The 31st. Yes. Coming up. Wait, what date is yours?

SPEAKER_03 0:55

The 11th. So it was Monday.

SPEAKER_00 0:56

May 11th.

SPEAKER_03 0:57

Yeah, but we celebrated on Saturday. So we went into dinner and then we went to an art installation called Emotion Air. Oh. I don't know if you've heard of this, but it's on the west side. A lot of like balloons and it's just art that's inflatable. There was one really cool room. It was a huge room, and it was like white on every surface and a helium-filled, almost gerbil ball that you would think of from um uh what am I thinking of? Uh what band?

SPEAKER_05 1:29

That gerbil ball?

SPEAKER_03 1:30

Gerbilball, where he gets the flaming lips. Flaming lips. You would think of it. It's like that size, and it's got charcoal on the outside of it, and you just pass it and it makes marks all over the wall. It's interactive art.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

So cool.

SPEAKER_03 1:41

Yeah, they had a huge ball pit.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

So emotion air is like the air is in the balloon.

SPEAKER_03 1:46

That's the yeah, it's like this emotional experience of this, these different um, you know, art installations, but it had to do with balloons and a room that had a huge ball pit. Like huge. And you can go in. You jump in it and you can do like trust falls.

SPEAKER_00 2:02

And then they let you know, John's favorite form of therapy is a trustfall.

SPEAKER_03 2:06

And yeah, so we did that, and then it was Mother's Day. That was great. We went to brunch in the morning.

SPEAKER_00 2:13

Um everybody does brunch.

SPEAKER_01 2:16

Not my family. My mom does not want to go anywhere. Oh, well, there he has it. Really? What is it? Saturday night we like went out to dinner. Okay. Sunday is like nobody move. Let's hang out. Just sit. Yeah. Do everything for mom.

SPEAKER_00 2:30

And yeah. Do you do a lot of art?

SPEAKER_01 2:33

No, I don't. I I uh no, but I being new to the city, I like there's so many museums that I'd like to go. Like, I I struggle sometimes being in an art museum for four hours. Totally. Um I hear that. But like I live right around the corner from the National Museum of Mexican art. Um, and I haven't been yet. And like I that's like I really want to.

Outsider Art And Who Decides

SPEAKER_00 2:53

Yeah, I went once on a date to an outsider art museum. And it was really cool.

SPEAKER_03 3:00

How do you feel about outsider art?

SPEAKER_00 3:03

I like it. I really do like it. Yeah, how do you feel about it? I think the concept is it's kind of false, the concept. Right. Because the concept of like an insider art is fucking false.

SPEAKER_03 3:18

Well, and is the is the idea that the outsiders are not talented or skilled enough to be on the inside.

SPEAKER_00 3:26

Well, the idea with outsider art is, and maybe I don't know what it is.

SPEAKER_01 3:30

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:31

Outsider art, the concept is people with non-traditional backgrounds making art. So it's like you can't have gone to art school or like be considered like a professional artist. It's like art from people, and it is often from people that are like neurodivergent.

SPEAKER_03 3:47

So you're not good enough to be on the inside.

SPEAKER_00 3:48

Well, I guess you're not good enough to be able to be able to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_03 3:50

Or you didn't follow the trade. You didn't get right.

SPEAKER_00 3:54

That's the idea. But the insiders will say that it's not the concept of insider art is so antithetical to like art.

SPEAKER_05 4:01

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 4:01

You know, it's like the piece is what speaks, it doesn't really matter where it came from.

SPEAKER_03 4:05

Right. So it's like then there wouldn't need to be a distinction.

SPEAKER_00 4:10

Right.

SPEAKER_03 4:11

It's all artists.

SPEAKER_00 4:11

Or it's like I I guess it's like Right? Because like we don't make this distinction really in music, do we?

SPEAKER_03 4:17

Insider music?

SPEAKER_00 4:18

Yeah, like people who don't follow any like music.

SPEAKER_03 4:21

People who were not classically trained are outsider musicians.

SPEAKER_01 4:25

Right. I feel like with music though, people are more often able to be like, that is a talented musician, whereas like art can be more like paintings and stuff can be more like interpreted.

SPEAKER_00 4:39

Maybe there are more outsiders like making art. I mean, there's a lot of people making music. Because I'm trying to think of like when I went to the outsider art museum, like what would be the equivalent of like a music exhibit that would be like that? It would be people making a lot of like cacophonous noise and like ambient stuff, like yeah, some ambient stuff for sure, which like we would consider music, like we would never differentiate.

SPEAKER_02 5:02

Yeah, that's good. Yeah, yeah. I feel like Mike Esposito, who makes our theme song, is like would consider himself an outsider artist.

SPEAKER_00 5:09

He's an outsider artist, totally.

SPEAKER_03 5:12

I just well, how was the museum?

SPEAKER_00 5:14

The museum was cool, yeah. I liked a lot of the pieces. I mean, it was almost like any other museum where you're like some really resonate with you, and some you're like, Yeah, sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:24

I just think it's a fun concept.

SPEAKER_00 5:26

I really respect, I really respect people making art just because they want to and not feeling like you need an art degree, you need to be a professional artist.

SPEAKER_03 5:36

Yeah, it's probably a badge of honor for a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00 5:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:39

To be an outsider artist. Totally.

SPEAKER_01 5:41

Those artists probably are more like purists. Like they're doing it for the love.

SPEAKER_00 5:46

Right.

SPEAKER_01 5:46

The love of the game.

SPEAKER_00 5:47

The love of the game. Yeah. Is Van Gogh like it was he? I mean, he was probably an outsider. I don't think he made any money from his paintings until he was dead.

SPEAKER_01 5:56

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 5:57

I don't think.

SPEAKER_01 6:00

People maybe didn't get it. Also, access to his art. Like, we there's one social media. Right. Like, what is this?

SPEAKER_00 6:08

Or like Emily Dickinson, an outsider poet. It's like, it's so ridiculous when you think of it. I know.

SPEAKER_03 6:14

I it's just such a funny case. It's kind of ridiculous. It's kind of funny.

SPEAKER_00 6:17

I'm an outsider therapist. I guess that would be like a coach.

SPEAKER_03 6:22

Somebody who's not classically trained in the therapeutic.

SPEAKER_00 6:25

Or like just like a really wise friend.

SPEAKER_03 6:28

A good friend is an outsider therapist.

SPEAKER_00 6:31

It's like a doula is kind of like an outsider doctor. Sure. Or an outsider.

SPEAKER_01 6:36

So it's it's not necessarily talented and untalented, it's like regulated and less regulated.

SPEAKER_00 6:40

It's more wild. Yeah. Trained.

SPEAKER_02 6:43

Training.

SPEAKER_00 6:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:45

I'm a wild therapist.

unknown 6:47

Wild therapist.

SPEAKER_00 6:49

Yeah. Someone in the pit had a wild pregnancy. She didn't want any medical intervention.

SPEAKER_03 6:55

It is funny to think about outsider insider for any profession.

SPEAKER_00 7:00

I'm an outsider attorney.

SPEAKER_03 7:04

So you Yeah, it's like you don't have a law degree. You look a lot of stuff up on Wikipedia.

SPEAKER_00 7:10

Yeah. Yeah, it really fits some things, but art is certainly not one of them.

SPEAKER_03 7:14

Yeah. But maybe they really get an outsider artist on. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:20

I wonder if they invented it especially too for like a museum to be able to like, what do we call this museum?

SPEAKER_03 7:27

Like of all this art that's Or even just like, what do we call these pieces if we're gonna showcase them? Even in other museums that aren't like the Art Institute, they probably have some outsider art in it, right? It's so huge. Don't you think they probably have something that would be considered?

SPEAKER_01 7:42

I guess, sure.

SPEAKER_03 7:43

Like a section or like a well, there's gotta be somebody who is an outsider artist who eventually became huge. Don't you think? And then it's yeah. Then is it insider art or if transitioned?

SPEAKER_05 7:56

Right?

SPEAKER_03 7:56

There's your inside outside uh uh yeah, like look up who's the most famous. Who's the most famous?

SPEAKER_01 8:03

Yeah, this is interesting. Is that like antithetical though? Like is is that yeah, if they're famous. Like, is that what takes them outside of being an outsider?

SPEAKER_00 8:11

I wonder if it's more like art school.

SPEAKER_01 8:14

Okay. Like, how does how does that museum like source its artists and and that's a great question?

SPEAKER_00 8:20

I really should know that. It was a while ago that I was there.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

Yeah, that's fair.

SPEAKER_00 8:23

But maybe I'll figure that out. Maybe you'll figure that out.

SPEAKER_03 8:26

They're self-taught creators who produce art outside the mainstream, often in isolation or while facing mental illness and extreme hardship. Key figures include Henry Darger, famous for his math uh massive illustrated fantasy manuscripts, and Judith Scott, known for her abstract fiber sculptures.

SPEAKER_00 8:47

Okay, so it's like a movement.

SPEAKER_01 8:50

It also makes sense for like again for like access, though, like people who are going through a lot mentally or just might not have the the right channels to the right people or to be able to afford school.

SPEAKER_00 9:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:03

Like this is like an alternative path to be able to make on this Henry Dirger says a reclusive hospital janitor whose 15,000-page fantasy novel. What? The story of the Vivian girls was discovered after his death.

unknown 9:20

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 9:21

I don't know, he was the first listed one, and then Judith Scott, um, a deaf and down syndrome artist who created complex fiber-wrapped sculptures.

SPEAKER_00 9:29

Wow. And were hers discovered posthumously?

SPEAKER_03 9:32

Well, she passed away in 2005, so I'm not really it didn't it doesn't say in this brief description.

SPEAKER_00 9:38

Well, that would be an interesting definer. They discover like this person we thought was just a janitor.

SPEAKER_03 9:44

Right. Or Lewis Wayne, known for his surreal kaleidoscopic paintings of cats created during his time in psychiatric hospitals. Whoa.

SPEAKER_05 9:53

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 9:54

These artists often referred to as producing art brute or raw art have redefined their art world with their works now featured in major museums like the Metropolitan Museum of Art and the Museum of Modern Art. So yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 10:09

You know what's funny?

Escapist Reading Versus Heavy Books

SPEAKER_00 10:10

This makes me think of what we talked about, Josh, this week. And I constantly talk about this on the pod. Like my struggle with like what to read. You know, and like because you're an outsider reader.

SPEAKER_03 10:24

You want to be on the inside. If you can't finish Flesh, you're not gonna be on the inside.

SPEAKER_00 10:30

I exactly like both prize-winning books. This is this is my main dilemma. It's like I'm a therapist, I reprocess trauma with people every day, pretty much at this point in my practice. To end work and then read a book like Flesh, or some of these really challenging, really dark, but obviously incredibly written and really meaningful books. I was an English major, like I love that stuff, but it's like too heavy, it's too much. So then I'm reading these fucking romantic books, and they're so stupid. And I said to Josh, I was like, I should literally write one of these. I'm like, I should write one with a female character that's like fully realized.

SPEAKER_03 11:11

There you go. Write one like I should do this for the use of the world.

SPEAKER_00 11:15

For me, where it's like there's fun elements and it's like interesting and kind of like whimsical and not so heavy, some deeper themes, but like a woman main character who is wise-minded, or like at least like asking those questions and like living a life that's like of more depth and less like whiny, stupid.

SPEAKER_03 11:43

But then doesn't it take it out of the romantic?

SPEAKER_00 11:45

Yeah, probably, yeah. It probably will.

SPEAKER_01 11:47

Well, is it are is it doing it for you? Like, are you enjoying reading? No, it's not really.

SPEAKER_03 11:53

It's like no, you do. I think you don't like that you do. I think that's a problem. I think that's the problem because there's some. I'm an English major. I'm a therapist and I don't want to read.

SPEAKER_00 12:05

Some of them do, whatever it is, but there's only a few that are good.

SPEAKER_03 12:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:10

And then you kind of are like, oh, I liked those, so let me move on to the other things in this genre.

SPEAKER_01 12:14

Wait, are those the ones that are like God awful? So are you haven't named good and the bad thing?

SPEAKER_00 12:19

Well, obviously, Fourth Wing.

SPEAKER_01 12:20

Yeah, that's the medieval one. Fourth Wing is good. I'm listening to that right now. Oh, great. So I already listened to the first two, the dramatized version. Have you have you No?

SPEAKER_00 12:29

I listened to this really annoying woman read them.

SPEAKER_01 12:33

You should listen to the dramatized version. Well, there's also annoying narrators.

SPEAKER_00 12:38

All almost all book narrators.

SPEAKER_01 12:40

You get like the bad. What's multiple is like the people like running and the and the dragon breathing and they do that with Harry Potter too.

SPEAKER_00 12:47

They have do I have I don't know if I can't. Every time I read a romantic book, I told Josh, the next book they suggest is Harry Potter. And I'm like, I read this in fourth grade. Who's that? Like Audible.

SPEAKER_03 13:00

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 13:01

We'll be like, here's something you might be interested in.

SPEAKER_03 13:04

Have you heard of this Harry Potter?

SPEAKER_00 13:05

It's like the Chamber of Secrets. You're like, I genuinely read this in fourth grade. But yeah, oh wow. So you're okay, amazing. That's good. And that's like compelling. The characters, like they give you a little more depth, but it's interesting and it keeps your attention. And then have you read the A Court of Thorn and Roses? No, no, I have not. To me, that's the best of all.

SPEAKER_01 13:27

I've heard I I I haven't heard like people not like that series.

SPEAKER_00 13:31

Yeah. I know that's Sarah J.

SPEAKER_01 13:32

Moss.

SPEAKER_00 13:33

Yeah, I've not met anyone read them and not like them. Now, I think the main the female main of that is like pretty good. It's like they don't make the women complex enough. I'm telling you. They just it's like and I don't like these stories.

SPEAKER_01 13:49

Are the men complex?

SPEAKER_00 13:50

Not really.

SPEAKER_01 13:51

Do they make anybody? We just don't really expect that like it that much from the fruit. I just don't care.

SPEAKER_03 13:56

I'm just kidding. It's like are the dragons complex? Yes, the woodland creatures that are in these books is very much.

SPEAKER_00 14:07

But it's like it's really just like fun, but then clearly I don't want it to just be sorry.

SPEAKER_03 14:11

I think you just want a novel that has romance that's a little bit more well written, but not flesh.

SPEAKER_00 14:19

Yeah, that's asking deeper. Or more complex.

SPEAKER_03 14:23

Some of the books that Sarah reads. I'll give you some of the books. Yes, totally. Sarah does not want to read anything that is remotely close to my bookshelf.

SPEAKER_00 14:32

So um I mean, flesh, I want to read flesh.

SPEAKER_03 14:36

Yeah, and some of the things that Sarah gets from the library when I like take them out. They're they're almost it's almost like I'm looking at the same cover every single time. It's that type of genre of like light romantic book.

SPEAKER_00 14:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:54

A girl's trip to Connecticut ends up you meet the man of your dreams or something. Okay. You know, like that's now what I like that. But I don't know if you wouldn't. We don't know. It might be a little bit deeper in the sense of maybe.

SPEAKER_00 15:08

I mean, what I want to read over and over is Heart the Lover. That's what I want to read. Do you see what I mean? We all read the three of us read this book, Heart the Lover. Oh, which I packed already. Okay, so it's not so it's not up there. It's so good.

SPEAKER_03 15:22

It is good, and I wanna I wanna put it down. Yeah, I'm trying to get it. It's great. It ends with, or it doesn't end with it. Oh, it's definitely very sad.

SPEAKER_00 15:30

Yeah, so there's but it's like, but it honestly in some ways wasn't sad. It was so meaningful.

SPEAKER_01 15:36

Fiction. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 15:38

And like it's in three parts, and I do like like these love stories that are like so moving, but they're like pretty fraught in a real way, not in a like, oh my god, we can't be together for this like outside barrier, like something that's more internal and something that's more like mining. Yeah, complex. Like that's what I really want. But it's like so many of those books, it's like flesh, and then you're like, okay, so I can't sleep. I'm so disturbed. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:09

And it's like, or I feel so much pain for the character that's like, I need to put in the comments section of YouTube or email us. Please give us some book recs for Kelly. She struggles.

SPEAKER_00 16:20

Please, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:21

There's something to be said about like just checking out, like reading something or watching like like reality TV. Like, you're not, you're you're not you you don't think you're invested, but you you're definitely invested. You know, like I'm I'm reading um Incart. I don't know if you read that. Okay, so I never read it. It's it's like an elementary school, middle school series.

SPEAKER_05 16:40

Um I'm gonna write this down.

SPEAKER_01 16:41

And it's it's about like a girl and her dad, and and her dad's young adults. It's it yeah, but it's I think it's like younger than young adults. Oh, okay. Oh, I love it. And um, it's it's about it's like it's fantasy, uh, but it's about books and the power of words and like you know, dad-daughter relationship, yeah, like, but also super yeah, fantasy. And it's it's it's fun.

SPEAKER_05 17:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 17:06

And it's also just so nice because it's because it's that level when I get home from work or like when I'm driving and I'm listening to it, I like don't have to be locked in so heavily. Totally. It's just I can just like coast and it's pleasant, you know?

SPEAKER_00 17:20

Yes. Oh, okay. I will look into that, but no, I do need escape sometimes. We all do. Yeah, actually, it's funny. I had a really intense therapy session last week, and my therapist is like, What are you gonna do? She always asks me, What are you gonna do to take care of yourself tonight? And I was like, I didn't have any more clinical hours, so I was like, Oh, I think I'll just maybe like relax. I was like, I meditated this morning, so I don't think I'll meditate again because sometimes I'll meditate after therapy. And she's like, Yeah, just watch like a comedy or reality TV. She kind of just was like, take it easy. And I'm like, Yeah, you're so right, like kind of turn off. Like you've done a lot of hard work today, enough. Yes, and it's like, yeah.

Self Care After Intense Sessions

SPEAKER_03 18:00

I usually when I am done reading the dark, because I like the dark, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:07

You do, you have a high tolerance for it, as does Josh.

SPEAKER_03 18:10

I have a high tolerance for it. I enjoy it. I usually don't immediately go to bed unless I fall asleep when I'm reading. I put on the joy of painting, and I just watched soothing so wholesome thing. Yes, public television.

SPEAKER_00 18:25

Do we think he's outsider or he's so inside me?

SPEAKER_03 18:30

No, he's inside my heart.

SPEAKER_00 18:32

Yeah, no, his like soothing voice.

SPEAKER_03 18:34

I've looked up, I mean, truth be told, I've looked up if you can buy Bob Ross paintings. No, they're like held like public property, yeah. Like his name and entity. There's a documentary on Netflix about this. Oh, yeah, I should watch how they they have them and they don't like showcase them or sell them or anything like that. Like his estate, yeah, like his estate or his name or whatever. Yeah, there was some controversy with that. How much money he was making, you know, doing the show and stuff. So because it became insanely popular. Yeah, it was a public, you know, PBS show, and then he became insanely popular, and his face was everywhere. You can get anything with Bob Ross on it or those images, and so I think they took that and really made a lot of money. And I don't know if he saw as much of it.

SPEAKER_00 19:23

So God, that's a good idea, Joy of Painting. So you'll have a buffer, you have like a palette cleanser between the yeah, no pun intended, yes.

SPEAKER_03 19:30

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think we go intentional. He has it and he says they're gonna list all the colors in clockwise order, starting with titanium white, and then he's like, I have my pre-stretched canvas. I've watched it so many times. There's 26 seasons of it. So though the painting is pretty much all the same, yeah. No, it's on Amazon. If you have Amazon Prime, all the seasons in terms of it. Does PBS have its own like streaming? It might. Yeah, maybe it should. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:02

Yeah. Yeah, maybe I'll look into that.

SPEAKER_03 20:04

So and just watch it. It's soothing.

SPEAKER_00 20:06

Yeah, totally.

Ethan’s Chicago Move And New Job

SPEAKER_00 20:07

Well, I feel like I've already said what's new with me, kind of just through your sharing. But Ethan, tell us what's new with you. What's going on?

SPEAKER_01 20:15

A lot's new with me. I feel like I I just I just moved here two months ago to Chicago.

SPEAKER_00 20:21

Welcome.

SPEAKER_01 20:22

And yes, welcome. Thank you. Thank you. Uh it's it's nice to be welcomed. Um, I started my job a week later.

SPEAKER_00 20:30

Yeah. Yeah, tell us a little about your job.

SPEAKER_01 20:33

Sure. Um, so I work at a therapeutic day school. You know, it's about 200 students enrolled, um, about 70, 80 staff, social workers, uh, paraprofessionals, teachers, occupational therapists, speech language uh pathologists. Basically, it's it's a it's a private nonprofit that's county funded for students who have higher needs than what public school can or was willing to support. Yeah. Um students with autism, developmental intellectual disabilities, and then most of the rest of the students, uh, you know, a lot of emotional and behavioral challenges. So yeah, and I'm one of the five social workers. And so I'm with primarily high school. I have three high school classrooms and one middle school classroom. And it's yeah, I was gonna ask the ages. Yeah, well, so so the whole school, it's K through 12 and 18 to 22. So they have a transition program as well. And yeah, it's you know, uh a lot of you know, social emotional learning, you know, responding to crises, um, you know, building relationships with students and a lot of like flexing your social work wings, you know.

SPEAKER_00 21:40

Yes, all arms of social work, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:44

Yeah, whatever's needed, and also like whatever you, you know, if you want to get creative, yeah, they they give you the kind of the freedom for that.

SPEAKER_03 21:51

That's so nice. I in undergrad and then graduate school, I was doing more in-home uh ABA therapy with. Children with autism. So I have no experience in a school setting of doing that, which I'm sure is extremely challenging.

SPEAKER_01 22:07

I mean I did I did be there. So this is my first time experience in a school. Um and it's uh yeah, it's challenging. But I I think it just kind of in a different way than other capacities. Like therapy is also really challenging. Yeah. Just in a very different environment.

SPEAKER_05 22:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:23

It's like controlled, contained, and the school is like chaotic, uncontained, open. Yes. Which pros and cons, the all of it, you know.

SPEAKER_00 22:32

Yeah, we were talking about this before we turned the mics on. And yeah, I was saying how I miss a little bit of that, like really hands-on kind of being in a space with a lot of people, kind of work. I know I've said that to you before. Like, I definitely I love being an individual therapist, but when you have a day full of all that, yeah, like you really have a day and you go home and you're like, now I'm home. Like for me, sometimes it's like, where does work end? You know, my life begins. It's like, yeah, especially because Josh and I both work from home. And yeah, it can be and you own your company, so you're right, and I'm just the beginning, the middle, and the end of it all. Alpha and the omega and the omega. It all happens. Yeah, that's part of it, and I was saying this to Ethan, this is part of why we started the pod because I was like wanting this element of things too. But yeah, that's great. That's so cool.

SPEAKER_03 23:30

In your training, did you want to work in a therapeutic day school or did you stumble across this?

SPEAKER_01 23:36

Like, how do you get into so I wasn't looking at school social work at all? I'm actually, I like I don't have my school certification. Um, since it's a private nonprofit, it doesn't like follow the same guidelines as you know, public schools.

SPEAKER_00 23:47

Um, so I wasn't really outsider school social worker.

SPEAKER_01 23:50

There you go. There you go. There's a theme. Honestly, I like I was applying primarily to therapy jobs and I was applying for jobs for like eight months. And and also just like, you know, like going on places' websites and like emailing, you know, finding content and emailing people and like really putting in the work. Yeah. And then and nobody, you know, nothing, no, no bites. And then I applied for this job on Indeed, you know. Not a plug for Indeed, but yeah, yeah. So I wasn't looking for it, but I landed it and it and it's uh I mean again, it's only been two months. Um but it's been I'm hopeful.

Training Reality And Career Detours

SPEAKER_03 24:28

Well, I think that's something that we wanted to talk about is the idea of we go to school and get trained, maybe in a certain modality, or we get trained in a with an idea in mind of how we're going to enter the world as a social worker, a therapist, a counselor, or and rarely does it happen that way. And we can't our careers morph and they change. And even we were reflecting how we're just different in the modalities we engage with more of. Oh, yeah. So I'm wondering, yeah, you're the closest to school. Yeah. Certainly much more. Yeah, when did you graduate?

SPEAKER_01 25:04

But uh uh last year. Last year, okay. Last year. Congratulations on that.

SPEAKER_03 25:09

Um so yeah, your training tell us a little bit about what interests you. I know we talked a little bit about it beforehand, but yeah, um therapeutically or just even like modality-wise, yeah, what it is, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:21

Um I think like before I really even knew the terminology or the different types of modal modalities, I think psychodynamics really spoke to me. I think just because of like the relational aspect. Um, like I when it came to catching on with my like own therapist, like when I first started therapy, she's very casual and and relational and not necessarily like let's reframe that thought too now, you know. Yeah. Um now when I was like introduced to like thought records in grad school, I was like, wait, that's actually really, really helpful. Like a good good tool there.

SPEAKER_00 26:00

I've never done a thought record. I missed that like day.

SPEAKER_02 26:03

Do you mean you never learned about it?

SPEAKER_00 26:05

Like I know what they are, but like never.

SPEAKER_02 26:08

Wait, what is a a thought record?

SPEAKER_00 26:11

Oh yes. Okay, let's define a thought record. It's been a minute.

SPEAKER_03 26:16

Well, I for wouldn't it be from a CBT perspective, you're it's like a thought log, and then you are able to either identify the distortions and or come up with cognitive reframes or checking the facts or things like that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:33

Yeah, yeah. I think there is like a specific structure to which this might be a callback to David Burns. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:39

Feeling good.

SPEAKER_01 26:40

From the talking heads. Exactly. Identify uh an unhelpful thought. Where did that thought come from? How did it make you feel now? What's another what's a reframe? What's another way of looking at the situation? What's the new thought? And once you have established that new thought or perspective on the situation, how does that make sense? How does that make you feel?

SPEAKER_03 27:05

And can you compare them? And it's really a an elongated way and a more formalized way of learning how to thought challenge.

SPEAKER_05 27:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:13

Um, and and cognitive reframing and restructuring.

SPEAKER_01 27:16

I had a a client and initially it was like, let's try to CBT this, let's do a thought record. And like we did it like twice, and it was like we kind of tried it and it just wasn't for her. And then like the second I turned that off and just like was like just present and just like a person for her to talk to and like you know, reflect on, that's when like everything came out. Yeah. But I also had I also had like a younger client where like I was really trying to just like be casual and like and and also just like really connect person to person. Yeah. And it just like was not clicking. And I like brought out the thought record or you know, the you know, the triangle or you know, whatever, whatever it may be. And she was like, she was like, Yeah, that makes oh yeah, that makes sense. And like, you know, so it's right, it's like part it's it's a lot of what your background is and what you're comfortable with, but it's also entirely what the client latches on to, I think.

SPEAKER_03 28:12

Yeah, I mean, I remember when I first started having that same experience of I'm just gonna be the type of therapist I want to be in this space, and not thinking as much about what the patient needs and finding frustration, totally finding frustration and like why is this not working? I'm like, great. I don't get it. Like, like yeah, I'm totally killing it. And then I've had the other thing where I go to a CEU or I learn about whatever thought wrecker, you know, this or that, and I'm like, now every client needs to do this. Yeah, and it's the same problem, it's just in different packaging. It's like I'm not thinking about the client enough. I'm thinking about, oh yeah, isn't this a great thing? And they're like, it's not that great. Like, I don't know why you're trying to give this to me. This isn't even like what we're working on. So I definitely remember that, and I think that comes with time is like learning how to be both, right? Like be comfortable in a space yourself, but being so in tune that, oh, when are the moments to pull out like this sheet, the handout, yeah, yeah, or even knowing a uh presentation of somebody who might respond really well to that, right? And it doesn't mean it's successful every time, but right, yeah, I definitely can remember that. Like, why is this what? Yeah, it's gonna be me. Right. You know, yeah, yeah, which works a lot of the time, but you're not focusing as much on the I I like that reflection, you're not like focusing as much on the patient.

SPEAKER_01 29:36

Yeah, has that the client? Like now that you are more established in your practice, have you cycled back to that at all? Like, not just like ignorantly necessarily, just like I'm great and whatever, but just like you are more comfortable in your practice and your background and experience, and like it's just it flows better.

SPEAKER_03 29:54

I'm much more patient to let it unfold. I feel like when I was younger, it was I gotta get in there like quickly, whatever it is. Like I have to like make the intervention, right? I only got 60 minutes or only you know, whatever the time period was, it's like I gotta make a huge impact every single like moment. Yeah, and that's just not, you know, sometimes it's just moves at a glacial pace.

SPEAKER_00 30:20

Yeah, I feel that too. Like, definitely the patience thing. And really for me, like when I think about like I we, you know, part of the reason this podcast is named The Wise Mind Happy Hours, because when I first learned about DBT, I truly was like, this is my calling. Like radical acceptance, like was so important to me and the mindfulness piece, and I still have such a passion for that. And I think I was really moved by Marsha Linahan herself being diagnosed with borderline, and that like personality organization, her owning that and talking about like what didn't work for her and making you know a modality that did. And I I was moved by that. I felt like it had a lot. It was like a feminist perspective that I related to, but you know, doing that more. It's funny, even sometimes, that dbt is like behavioral because there is a lot of psychodynamic principles, like when you're living the dbt ethos, and then you sit with a client and you're both living in it. There is a lot of like inner subjective space that's important there, and trust, right? Therapists are more open and more irreverent, and not necessarily the blank screen, but at times, you know, like that. It's like to me, they all flow together so much more for me.

SPEAKER_01 31:47

I think the reason psychodynamics made the most sense to me is because to me, I view it as like the foundation of everything. Yeah, like it's it's not like I don't view it as like psychodynamics, CBT, DBT, like psychodynamics is down here, and then like a lot of other ones are like tools that can you can use congruently. Yeah, like even CBT, which I feel like people say are like is like the opposite of psychodynamics because it's like behaviorally, it's behavioral psychodynamics is you know your childhood and all that stuff. Yeah, a big part of CBT is like core beliefs, right? Yeah, those have to come from somewhere, you know, experiences and and relationships and totally how you know you've interacted with the world and the world has interacted with you, and like it's all it's all in there, right?

SPEAKER_00 32:29

You know, it's all kind of the same.

SPEAKER_01 32:31

It is, but it also matters like the person matters, like the therapist, like you can yeah, claim to be a psychoanalyst and also be a shitty therapist, you know, and vice versa, and all that stuff. Yeah.

Integrating Psychodynamic CBT And DBT

SPEAKER_00 32:42

For me to integrate a new, especially something more protocol-based, a new element, like EMDR being my newest in my practice. I have to really consider how it relates to my kind of like identity as a therapist and like what I believe, like in my bones, in my wise mind. I have to find a way to integrate it. And I will say, in some ways, EMDR has been the hardest because it is a strict protocol in a lot of ways. I'm learning that it can be less strict as you get more mastery with it, but it does talk a little bit more about like full healing than a lot of other types of therapy, which I got stuck on a little. And I kind of had a bit of like a grief process with, because like my whole approach is very like being with things and we don't solve our problems, we grow larger than them. And you know, like, and I still believe that. So then when I was hearing in this training all of this, like you can heal that. It's like, of course, you'd think I would want that, but I also like didn't totally buy it and was curious about it. Yeah, I wonder if you are having that reaction as not an early. Well, that is, of course, the question.

SPEAKER_03 34:01

Like, what is that? What are they trying to say?

SPEAKER_00 34:03

It's like more like full resolution with certain issues when you link them to neural networks and like the trauma that undergirds them. Finding core beliefs in early developmental processes, processing those traumas and like this kind of like memory reconsolidation piece that happens.

SPEAKER_01 34:24

So maybe more fully like integrated, totally, totally functionality, like are like I'm now able to functional daily in a way that's right.

SPEAKER_00 34:38

But you know what's funny, it's more than that because I will notice a lot of clients, like when we do the work fully, they're not just functioning, they're kind of no longer dealing with certain things, like their emotions do seem different. Yeah, not everyone, and it but but there is a very a more profound shift I'll see. Not for everyone, but a lot of the time. And it it tends to be a little less effortful the shift when you go back and process. And I do EMDR with my therapist, and it's pretty wild what can happen. The shifting, and I don't even think it's like, oh, you're tricking your brain. It almost feels like a psychodynamic process with the therapist, but you're getting deeper into the body. So it's like I might know, but I didn't deserve to be talked to that way. But do I know it in my body? Physiological. The shifting can feel physical. Like I'll feel this lightness in my gut. Oh, and it's crazy. Yeah. And that was a big shift where I was like, oh wow, I guess you can kind of like move some of this. And maybe move is a better term. Yeah. Like move it instead of static and like stuck. There's like a flow that can happen. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:02

If that makes sense. Yeah, well, it's dynamic, right? Like, dynamic, exactly. And that's and that's I think healed, like fully healed, I doesn't make I feel like that is doesn't make a ton of sense. Like I feel like healing is like a is a constant constant thing.

SPEAKER_03 36:16

Yeah, I think healed is a very uh medical model term. Yeah, yeah. And so I think that's problematic. Then people come to therapy with very rigid ideas of like what it means to I'm gonna be healed or I'm gonna be cured or I'm gonna be better after this, which is basically I don't want to feel or experience whatever it is that I'm experiencing. Yeah, like I don't ever.

SPEAKER_00 36:38

Yeah, it's kind of funny. Parts work and EMDR, they both will use heal, but like the target is really the stuck point with self and how do we create flow? And like I love DBT and like the behavioral stuff, and I love the skills. Like I really do love the skills. And I I think that like something like EMDR can actually loosen things so that skill use is even easier, you know, even less blocked.

SPEAKER_01 37:07

Yeah. It's uh talking about like integrating the the modalities, like it it really is important. Like it's not just like a choice, I think it's important. Um, my my psychodynamic professor in grad school, one of the best professors I've ever had, something that I actually like didn't agree with her on was like she was very adamant because she's like a psychoanalyst, like she she's she studies to be, yeah, like yeah, in in ways. In ways. Um she's like, yeah, and like in psychoanalysis, psychodynamics, like we don't do this, like we don't referencing something from CBT or parts work or whatever it is. I like I understand that you're you're trying to distinguish and and this is what psychodynamics is so that you can learn what it is. Like that part made sense, but I think like the rigidity can be dangerous. A hundred percent. Like understanding what it what it is and what it's supposed to be, and then adapting it to what makes sense for you and what makes sense for your client too. Yeah, that's outsider therapy.

SPEAKER_03 38:07

I know, yeah, I know. I'm like, I'm outside thought work is outsider therapy.

SPEAKER_05 38:12

Totally.

SPEAKER_01 38:13

I was doing I was doing therapy in uh in my practicum and like was so anxious, and now I'm like, oh man, no, I really want to do it again. Well, you have a long time. That's great, yeah. You'll do it again. That's what's been lovely about moving to Chicago. It feels like everything's open, like there's no rush.

SPEAKER_00 38:30

It's just totally yeah. Well, tell us about your journey with your modality.

SPEAKER_03 38:36

Yes. I think when I was in graduate school, it was definitely CBT, DBT related. I didn't learn anything about act in graduate school. Yeah, me neither.

SPEAKER_00 38:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:48

But it was a lot of dynamic, it feels very fluid, it feels very flexible to me, which I like. Yeah. Like you were saying. So that's kind of where I'm at. I mean, still using all of the skills, the DBT, the CBT skills.

SPEAKER_00 39:02

Yeah, they just become part of you, and then yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:05

Yeah. And some people just really like a concrete skill, and they that's what they want. They really want.

SPEAKER_00 39:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:14

Something tangible.

SPEAKER_00 39:15

And we kind of all need some of it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I even think about that, like us just as a couple, like skills are great. Like, you know, where it's like, well, what are we really doing with this thing? Like we're radical acceptance is maybe like of what we have, or you know, take five. Take five, yeah, we'll take five of them. And we get worked up if we remember. Yeah. Yeah. And like I lately, something I've been doing or trying to notice is like, you know, when when a an issue's coming up in a session or like something's going on, like sometimes I'll even ask, like, what would it be like to instead of trying to change that, like turn the mind and make the space for it? And I'll really kind of listen, like, because there are many clients who are like, okay, yeah, we can think about that, or together we'll imagine what that looks like. And there's a looseness and an openness in their even body language to that. And then other times it's like, I could never do that. And then we'll look more at like what comes up in your body when I say that, and we'll process in a more less skills-based way. It's almost like feeling it out a little, like, you know, because there's times someone suggests something and you're like, I never thought of that, you know, and then that's really all you need. And then other times it is a little, it's stuck more, and you kind of honor the part that's sticking with it. Yeah, a lot of it you have to really feel out. It's context. Yeah.

Being Present During Crisis Moments

SPEAKER_01 40:49

You know, I like what I'm doing at the school so far is very well, besides like getting used to it and a new job and getting to know people. Like, I think a lot of it is subconscious, like the interventions or whatever that I'm doing. But like if I'm responding to a crisis, then like skills can be helpful, right? Totally. Like co-regulation. Like if somebody's really worked up, like instead of yelling back or whatever, you know, if I'm getting cussed out, like I'm still maintaining and talking about like breathing and just you have to use the skills that you have in the moment to start regulating, versus if I'm on a walk with a student and they're having a bad day and they are in more of a capacity to talk about it and maybe dig a little deeper. I, you know, haven't gotten that deep because I'm just meeting these students and whatever it is, but there's more opportunity in that moment to touch on a subject that might be a little bit more sensitive and feel that out and see if they're willing to open up or disclose, or you know, like there's no room for that when when you're so dysregulated and elevated.

SPEAKER_00 41:49

Yeah, it's like you can't assign one thing.

SPEAKER_01 41:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:54

And really, like with something like Act or DBT, I feel like the most important thing is integrating the those concepts into you as a person, right? Like values orientation, psychological flexibility, mindfulness. Like if you're integrating those into your life, they come more naturally in the therapy space, right? Like, or especially in like such a high octane environment. When you're kind of up on the practice, it flows from you a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 42:29

Yeah, because people I think respond the most to authenticity. Because that's what I was struggling with in grad school doing therapy. I was like trying to be present, but in the back of my mind, I'm like, what intervention am I implementing in this moment? And how is it going to be effective? And blah, blah, blah. Because we also had to do uh process recordings where we had to like oh yes, I remember those. And so in the back, I'm like, okay, what can I use for like this? And it's like, that's terrible. Um that's real. No, no, no, everybody's thinking made made sense for the time. Um, but it was, it was, it was hard because I'm like, how do I like I want to make sure I'm implementing in like an evidence-based clinical intervention that I learned from this book? And like all the while I'm thinking that I'm like not actually with the client and like with like being present for like and that's what they need the most. They just need somebody authentically there with them for them. Yep. Um, and that's like most of it. And then like the the concrete interventions like come supplemental. Yeah. I don't like and not even secondary, like I think what we're talking about, like it's it's it's all one thing.

SPEAKER_00 43:34

Yeah, it's all fused. Yeah, totally. Oh my god, I totally remember times where I'm like thinking too much and like the trying to put it together. It's like, are you even here?

SPEAKER_01 43:44

Fuck, what what what do they just say? I feel like they just said something important. Yes, totally, totally.

SPEAKER_03 43:51

It's juggling. It's a lot to be in a space with somebody of attuning to them.

SPEAKER_05 43:56

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:57

Trying to not be thinking about other things. Try not to be thinking too hard about an intervention or a point where you're gonna make an entry or an impact. And that's part of the learning curve. And not that anybody ever is fully baked with that. We all have days where we're still in the headspace, but that that is real when you're learning how to be a therapist. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:18

Not even just like thinking like about interventions, but also like what if you like didn't sleep for shit the night before and you had a horrible morning and you're not in a good way yourself. And like how do you how do you adjust and adapt? Like that's that's something that like I really I like don't have a framework for that, you know.

SPEAKER_03 44:36

I mean that's what I was thinking every day that we logged on to Zoom during the pandemic. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 44:43

Okay, that was cra I suddenly was like running a PHP out of my apartment. It felt like it was crazy.

SPEAKER_03 44:49

I was so happy for the distraction of not having to think about the walls caving out of me at home. Totally, yeah, having a meaningful career, but then it was like the career is sitting and listening to everybody else talk about their homes, right?

SPEAKER_00 45:04

The same thing you're going through.

SPEAKER_03 45:06

Yeah, but at least it was the reprieve of not thinking about mine. So it was like this weird, messed up, and every day was the same.

SPEAKER_00 45:13

Oh my god, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:14

Because I was still going to the office, there were two people at the office because I couldn't.

SPEAKER_00 45:18

Right the whole time you were, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:21

My wife and I div divvied up the day. I would go into the office and do groups from home, and then I would run home, and then she would go to the office and do because she didn't work from home either, and then we would split up time with the kids at home.

SPEAKER_00 45:34

And so it was like and trying to help them do school.

SPEAKER_03 45:38

So I would go to well, yeah, that was a whole other thing.

SPEAKER_00 45:40

But I mean, it's like people just weren't doing it.

SPEAKER_03 45:43

I don't think it was school. I think it was logging in and surviving, yeah. It wasn't really school, but going into the office, there was one other person who was going in, so we would see each other down the hall, just kind of wave, yeah, go into our offices, and then but it was like a routine every day, though.

SPEAKER_00 46:01

Nuts.

SPEAKER_03 46:02

That was a wild time. So yeah, when when you're trying to be present when your whole outside world is yeah, or yeah, these other like natural thoughts like on the brain.

SPEAKER_00 46:11

Yeah, yeah. You know what'll happen to me every time a client will mention, like, oh, I gotta do my taxes. I would be like, My taxes, and I would start to think about my own taxes, and I'm like, God, this is like the trigger word you can't say to me and keep me present with you. I start to be like crazy. Yeah, just or else taxes are off limits. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:32

But there's value to relatability though, right? Like the authentic authentic part. Like that's you know, like you don't want to like fully disclose everything, but like being like, you know, telling them a little bit about how you feel, you know, I feel like is somewhat relatable. Yeah, at least especially like I feel like my I had a student come in today and I was like, hey, like good to see you. How you doing? Um I'm tired. Um I want to go home. And I was like, yeah, me too. I'm I'm with you. Yeah, we're we're here, we're in it. You know, we're in it.

SPEAKER_00 47:04

Here yeah, instead of being like, told me a lot. You know, totally. Yeah, yeah, knowing that.

SPEAKER_03 47:11

Taxes is one of the most useful examples sometimes. I use to teach people wise mind.

SPEAKER_00 47:16

Yeah, is it?

SPEAKER_03 47:18

Well, because I use rational my own experience of I have all the forms, I'm in my rational mind. Open up the documents, see how much I made, I'm into emotion mind, my kids are never going to college, I'm not gonna be able to afford this, I'm gonna be in debt forever. So I shut it off. I come back to rational. Okay, now I'm gonna have to get a supplemental job, something, you know, and then I think about that, and that becomes too overwhelming. And then I go into so I'm missing that wise place, right? So it one of the most relatable things, and I don't make that up, like sometimes that's what doing my taxes is like. Yeah, I just kind of go back to the state.

SPEAKER_00 47:53

That's probably why it's so distracting because it is like so activating. It's like they're talking about on the practical level of get it done.

SPEAKER_03 48:01

And I'm like, taxes, and like when I think of taxes, it's like but even when I'm in the get it done place, I can quickly go into uh totally frantic shift over.

SPEAKER_01 48:11

Yeah, they set it up like that, you know, they make it purposely confusing.

SPEAKER_00 48:14

Yeah, totally.

Basketball Art And Memory Reconsolidation

SPEAKER_00 48:16

Well, I'm curious. Okay, maybe our last thing, and we don't have to have an answer for this, but I'm curious since we're talking about like our evolution, are there any like new things y'all are interested in or exploring like in your role as therapist, as therapeutic support, like any like intriguing ideas you want to dig into more or basketball, basketball, basketball as therapy. Yeah, well, tell us about that because we're sort of serious.

SPEAKER_01 48:48

No, I mean, I think that just that goes back to the relatability thing. Like it's it's you know, having high school students who are really into sports and being tough, like and the people they revere are athletes. Like it's just it's helpful that I play basketball.

SPEAKER_05 49:06

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_01 49:07

And also just like it's it's also fun for me too, because like I get to like go to gym class with them and like play them and play with play with them and like talk shit, and they love that. And like, you know, uh that's great. And uh so that's like a new like I I never really I could never imagine how like because I loved basketball and sports growing up, and then I was always like also very well, soft is the right word, but like for all the men in this room. Renaissance men. Yeah, some something like that. A Renaissance man is not not not really one of the bros.

SPEAKER_00 49:40

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:41

Um and and I never really imagined those two realms to intersect. Uh like I quit the basketball team in high school because it was so toxic and I hated it. Everybody was mean, not everybody, but yeah, the coaches. Um and so it's like actually really satisfying that like I like two things that I like love deeply are like actually like meshing.

SPEAKER_00 50:04

That's great.

SPEAKER_01 50:04

Like that's that's kind of cool. So like not in the actual like modality per se. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:09

But yeah, it's almost like these non-therapeutic things like as a connection point that might open things up. Yeah. I love that. What about you?

SPEAKER_03 50:19

I've always been interested in art therapy.

SPEAKER_00 50:23

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:24

But I think getting more training and and evolving into bringing in more creative processes would be something I would be interested in. I love that. Like more visual art stuff, not so much maybe more like drawing or painting, not so much like clay or sculpture sculpture. Because it's messy. I just don't it doesn't interest, it's a selfish reason. It doesn't really interest me. I much rather like the medium Bob Ross, obviously. I was just painting or drawing, sketching. So if I could learn more about that and somehow not necessarily be an art therapist, but bring in more of those types of creative processes I would like to involve into that. That's always been an interest of mine.

SPEAKER_00 51:04

So yeah. Totally. I I feel like both of these I love. Yeah, and the art piece, like I would be so interested in that for sure. I have been uh listening to a lot of podcasts and I want to read a book on like memory reconsolidation. And you know, EMDR obviously is in this line, but um more broadly there's this like memory reconsolidation idea of like like neuroscience research showing that helping people understand core beliefs and then experience things that are antithetical to it, you know, unexpected reactions to core beliefs, trauma situations can create this like real neurological change. And I'm interested in that. Kind of like exposure therapy or well, it's more imaginal. It's pretty much all the research with it is imaginal, but um it's more like let's say you have a certain fear and you look at all the situations where like that fear came up, but like the response was different in your environment, and you help them kind of feel into that and like work that into their system. It kind of helps you like naturally, it's like a more deeper kind of thought challenging, really, you know, helping someone find in their own experience. Like, where did that not happen? And you're not denying the thing that did happen, you're almost like introducing them to each other. This really did happen, and so did this. Like, what do you make of that?

SPEAKER_01 52:42

Like that's like dialectical, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 52:44

Totally, totally, and it's sort of like what is the fact that both of them happen to say about you, you know, and what do you know? And yeah, I'm really interested in it. And and I'm even interested in this gonna sound so stupid, but like I'm really interested in focusing for more time and longer on like positive experiences, pleasant, uplifting, empowering experiences, and staying with them a lot more in the space. You know, I I give a lot of priority to negative experiences and pain, which is important, but I think accumulating positive emotions, accumulating positive emotions, DBT skills right there, yeah, like being in that place, letting the psyche like feel into that a bit as well as and the therapeutic relationship can be one of those positive experiences if it is positive for them, which you can't assume, but you know, it can be like you know, it's like every time I've told someone that I've been rejected, it's like, well, what's it like to tell me about that? You know, and noticing in real time what happens here, you know.

SPEAKER_01 53:53

There's so many like modalities in that already. Like that's like modeling like a healthy relationship when a lot of the relationships outside of therapy are not that way. It's like, well, everybody reacts this way, and every and my whole world is like this. And I'm like, and what about here? What about here? What about this? Totally showing them that an alternative is possible, yes, and more likely the more they lean into it.

SPEAKER_03 54:16

Totally some music involved too. Remember, we had one of our guests was talking about music.

SPEAKER_00 54:23

Oh, yes, we had a uh she was a neuroscientist, neuroscientist, yeah. Barbara Minton, shout out, she did a lot of work on like music and neurobiology, which was fascinating, which is super fascinating, yeah. And I was thinking about that, yeah, like playing certain music during reprocessing of things, and yeah. I mean, really, music could be such a good resource. It's sort of if you relived a traumatic experience with a song that's really comforting to you, that could be huge. Or even show them what's it like with like a metal song that isn't comforting, and then show them what it's like and have them talk.

SPEAKER_03 55:03

She meant she talked about how metal is one of those genres or a preferred genre for people with traumatic experience. Yes, it kind of drowns everything out. Yeah, totally. You're not connected, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:16

It's like a strategy for dissociating. Yeah, music is awesome for that. Like, I I feel like a lot of what I'm working on for myself and also hopefully transferring to my you know, my students is like checking in and checking out, and like when is good for for each. Like, when is it good to like check in with yourself and and interact with what you're feeling? And when is it good to be okay? It's too much, I can't do it right now. Yeah, you know, not and music is great for both of those things, right? Because like it can be like I really connected the song and the lyrics and the story of the artist, and like this is I or I have or I have a story behind this song, I was listening to it when, so you know, such and such. Or sometimes it's like I don't I don't want to think about anything. Let me bring some music and just you know, yeah, tune out.

SPEAKER_00 56:00

Um I mean, I guess I'm doing that with the books.

SPEAKER_01 56:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:04

Like checking in with flesh, checking right up with the fourth link. Oh man.

SPEAKER_03 56:10

Totally.

SPEAKER_00 56:11

Flesh is a real check-in. It is with the darkness of the world.

SPEAKER_02 56:18

It is dark. You both read it?

SPEAKER_00 56:20

So he's read the whole thing I started it. Yeah. I read the first part.

SPEAKER_02 56:23

Not yet, but I want to.

SPEAKER_00 56:26

People are praising the shit out of it.

SPEAKER_03 56:28

Yeah, but also it was I think there was some pushback. Well, yeah, I think a little bit of controversy just about the male author and the prote if you want to call it a protagonist, the main character in the book. Um, but anyway, yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 56:44

Yeah. It's interesting. It was a read. For sure. And it's written in this interesting way. Yeah. Yeah. Kind of like what you were saying, like sort of terse at times.

SPEAKER_03 56:55

Yeah, it's almost like staccato at times.

SPEAKER_00 56:57

Yeah. Totally worth a read, but like pretty heavy stuff.

SPEAKER_03 57:01

As I said, it's not a beach read.

SPEAKER_00 57:03

Yeah, I know you said that. Like, I was next to Josh in bed reading it kind of like. I think it was like when I was healing for my appendectomy, too. So I was like, I'm like, what is wrong with Josh?

SPEAKER_05 57:14

This is so sad. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:16

Are you a true crime person? They love all the like the dark.

SPEAKER_03 57:19

I like dark, but I don't nonfiction isn't necessarily the darkness that I like. Uh more of a dark novel. I don't really need a novel to have an ending. Just leave it undone. I like that.

SPEAKER_05 57:37

Yeah, it's so unsettling.

SPEAKER_03 57:40

It's just I don't know. It's just, yeah. So seedy characters, care like under belly kind of characters in society. Um, yeah, not likable character. I mean, those aren't the only books I'm reading, but I I do enjoy those types of do you feel the same way about movies? Sometimes, um not as much though, about movies. I think I'm more open to a lot of different genres of movies.

SPEAKER_00 58:07

Yeah. Do you guys like shows about drugs? Because I don't really like shows about drugs. I find them kind of like boring.

SPEAKER_03 58:14

You mean like Breaking Bad and like Um What was that one with William H. Macy? Are you talking about that? Shameless? Where he's like narcos? Narcos. Oh, you like that? Yeah. I don't know if I watched that many shows. I've never I don't think I've ever watched a drug show. A show just solely based on drugs.

SPEAKER_00 58:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:37

Breaking Bad is supposed to be one of the best shows of all time.

SPEAKER_00 58:40

I know. I'm like the only person who didn't like it.

SPEAKER_01 58:43

I've never seen it. And I want to watch more.

SPEAKER_00 58:45

The setting is so drab. Or is it Arizona?

SPEAKER_01 58:48

Ozark.

SPEAKER_00 58:49

New Mexico. Ozark, yeah. Never watched it. Oh, Ozark. Yeah. Flesh, it feels like that.

SPEAKER_03 58:56

What about weeds? Weeds, I love it.

SPEAKER_00 58:59

Weeds. I never watched it. I mean, I could watch it a million times, but it's funny. It's like really funny.

SPEAKER_03 59:04

So as long as drugs are funny, it's okay.

SPEAKER_00 59:06

Yeah, exactly. Dark drugs. I mean, I know breaking bed is funny, people say. Funny. But it's like, I think the setting got me with that. So ugly. Oh, they're like ugly street.

SPEAKER_01 59:20

Yeah. Um, I I think my brother loves Shameless, I think, if I'm remembering correctly. Um, and I've I've just heard a phenomenal South Side of Chicago showing. It's like a family on the south side, I think.

SPEAKER_00 59:32

Yes. The William H. Macy parts, I I mean this, I fast-forwarded them. I couldn't stand out.

SPEAKER_03 59:38

You don't like William Henry? Oh, you don't like his character.

SPEAKER_00 59:41

His character was so horrible. And just like to me, I was like, why do I need to see this guy be an asshole again? But I liked the kids and I would listen to their stories.

SPEAKER_01 59:49

That's kind of how I thought about the Sopranos. Like I was like sucked in, but I was like, man, like this is terrible. Yeah. It's like terrible to watch. Yeah. But also fascinating therapeutically. Like from the theory, because he's a therapist.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:03

Yes, yes, yes. It's interesting. Did you finish Strangers?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:07

I did.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:08

You did? Okay, so this is a book I recommend.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:11

Strangers, that's right. Yes. Yeah, I did. It was already on my new book, so I was like, Yeah, let's see.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:16

I want to know your thoughts on Strangers now that you finished it.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:19

Um, I thought it was a fascinating read.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:22

I definitely was I I just want to know more.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:28

I almost want him to write a book.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:30

I'd be curious what he'd say. So this is a story. This woman was married. These two pretty wealthy.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:37

But it's a memoir. It's not just a story. It's her story, but it's it's based in reality. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:42

These two pretty wealthy people from like New York families got together, got married, and like one day the husband's just like was having an affair, apparently.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:56

Yeah, the wife found out about it.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:59

And then he there wasn't really much discussion. It was just kind of like he's I'm done. Like this is it. Yeah. It's kind of like over.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:07

Yeah. And he almost like she writes it sort of like he had this just like sudden, like, I'm out of here and kind of like shifted a bunch in his personality. It was really cold. And he also had like systematically over their relationship, like they signed this prenup where like all the property that they acquire together, they would split if they got divorced, and anything that's in one of their names, they would um retain themselves.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:36

Which she was a stay-at-home mom. She was a stainless, like I don't know, a hedge fund manager or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:41

And she had family money, he had less, and she purchased everything.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:45

But all the property was purchased. From her inheritance or whatever it was. So he wasn't, he was basically just accruing wealth.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:55

And they were he would put everything in his name. And she like didn't blink on that. Which like that would be a good idea.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:01

Remember the lawyer. Yeah. And then she kind of just signed it. Well, yeah, you know. Yeah. But anyway, the so it's kind she's writing it from this perspective of you know how the fallout of that and also his what would appear to be callous, cold nature.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:21

He didn't want anything to do with the kids. They had two teen three teenagers at the time.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:26

He was apparently a very present father to some extent.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:28

And he I think his reasoning, if I'm remembering correctly, was well, they're old enough now that we shouldn't make it more messy by having them switch houses. They can decide when they want to see me. This is what the dad is saying. So like they can schedule dinners with me, or they can schedule dinners.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:46

So whenever they want to like see me, that's up to them, but they're too old for the sleeping at different people's houses. So then she publishes this, and then it's also or she publishes an article.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:58

Yes, and it went like viral.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:00

And then it kind of went viral, and then people were like, You're shitting on your marriage, and you're just upset about it, and she got some backlash from it, but also like empowered. Also, she got a lot of feedback and and turned it into a memoir.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:12

But and it's gonna be a movie with Gleneth Baltimore.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:14

It's really interesting.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:15

She's gonna play the moment. Bella Burden.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:17

It was great salad dressing.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:18

It was great. We just ate her salad dressing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:21

Incredible.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:22

Yeah, but it's it's an interesting read. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:26

It kept me, it was compelling. Totally.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:29

And even like she does a little bit in the book talk about like I wanted to examine what was my role in this in like allowing all of this. Which, like, you know, it's like there can be so many anti-feminist discussions of something like that, and also more nuanced discussions for any person of like what is going on in me that I would allow a man to treat me like this.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:52

Like what kind of like societal expectations or how she was conditioned to view those situations in her marriage.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:01

Well, and it sounds like they were a part of social structures and systems that viewed very negatively divorce because there's that one section that said after you divorced, they were a part of that club. Do you remember that part?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:15

Yes, yeah, on Martha's reign.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:16

She would have to wait three years to reapply to get her membership back or something like that after a couple divorces or something. Like so the systematic structures that they were in did not look it, it would appear did not look kindly on that and was probably just more heteronormative, like man makes money, you know, that type of those types of things. So I don't know. Totally. And also he didn't have a the husband didn't have much of a problem with what she wrote.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:46

Yes, she was on a podcast and she gave him a galley copy to read it before it was published, and asked him if he had notes or whatever changes, and he didn't have any changes to like how he treated his children, any of the emotional pieces. He wanted her to change like some dollar amount.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:03

Yeah, it was very about like his it was a very like non yeah, you would have think there would have been some sort of blowback about oh, you painted me in this kind of light, or it wasn't really like that, or he was indifferent about that, kind of indifferent about it, at least from her perspective.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:18

Yeah, and he really wanted her when they first got divorced to talk about it like it was amicable, and she's like, I'm not doing that. And I'm like, Good for her, right? I'm like, I'm not fucking doing that. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:29

It was a good it was a good read though.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:31

Yeah, yeah, super interesting.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:34

The new book I'm reading. I put these books on my library thing, and there's so many people ahead of me that I forget. Like this one was said, Oh, you have Haven ready for you. I'm like Haven, I don't even know what that's what's Haven. So it's I think the concept which has been done before um, young couple, they have a newborn, the um husband gets this new job in a company, and they're going off for a week. And getaway, which it's gonna turn into like a cult or some sort of nice thing where they're all haven't yeah, where they're all drugging people, or so it's already starting off, they're meeting these people, and the people are a little bit off. You can't really tell exactly what's happening.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:17

Oh my god, maybe I should read and we'll do an episode on it. Haven't you know people love cults?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:22

Yeah, it's gonna be something. It's either this it's a CD firm or it's a tech thing, and you're gonna they're gonna end up like Oh, what's that Keanu Reeves one is for something? I don't know. Yeah, harvesting harvesting at the Haven. Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:39

Isn't there a Keanu Reeves one where he like joins the company and he he's like a lawyer or something?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:46

Oh, that's the devil's advocate.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:48

Oh, yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:49

But that's where Al Bacino is literally the devil.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:51

Oh, right. Okay, cool.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:56

The cult of the devil.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:57

Yeah, I'll watch anything with Keanu Reeves, truly.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:00

He's great. I love Keanu Reeves. So should we go into our how wise is

How Wise Is It To White Lie

SPEAKER_03 1:07:04

it? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:04

Yes, let's do it. So our how wise is it today is how wise is it to white lie. We can sit with it for a second and see. Or we can define white lie.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:18

It's a good call. Yeah, what is a white lie?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:21

I mean, even the term white is problematic. So we probably should read.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:25

Oh, I was wondering where that kind of came from.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:27

Yeah. Um it's like almost like a harmless or a victimless lie, kind of a harmless lie. Supposedly harmless. Supposedly harmless lie.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:37

So AI tells us it is a minor, well-intentioned untruth told to avoid hurting someone's feelings, maintain social politeness, or bypass insignificant trouble. Or to protect your own feelings. Considered harmless or altruistic. These lies, such as praising a bad meal or complimenting an outfit, are often viewed as necessary social tools, though they can still be deemed dishonest.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:05

Yeah. Man, I struggle with this, to be honest. So that's a that's not a white lie. That is a bold truth.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:16

What do you struggle with about it? Like, as you read that, I was like, You don't like being socially appropriate.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:22

Well, I don't believe in white lying, and like I do it all the time. I really do. Like, I will be like, this was great about something I don't feel that way about. Yeah. What do you guys think?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:35

I never lie, so you you made pizza and salad before this. Yeah. And I genuinely really enjoyed it. And I think I feel like we're at the point where if it wasn't good, I don't think I would be like, man, this sucks. But I'd like I probably like if you asked me, like, oh, I think I might I'm I'm oh sorry. You'd offer like a critique or say maybe not a critique, but just like I like that I mean, I don't know if this is for me. Like I I appreciate the the hospitality and and the dinner. But maybe I like yeah, like it was like it was okay. I just wasn't not maybe not my favorite. Whereas like if we didn't know each other as much and you were hosting dinner in some context, like, and I may not be seeing you again or whatever, like there's there's no harm in like oh, like this that was delicious, thank you so much. Never gonna see you again. Bye.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:29

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:32

I mean, I think they're a necessary evil, yeah, almost in a lot of ways.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:37

Yeah, or is the argument like I'm never gonna see you again, so let me give you the hard truth. Yeah, you're your pasta sucked, yeah, so that now you know. And I don't have we don't have to deal with the emotion with the emotional fallout.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:54

Bye. Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:56

I think if you want to keep any, I think it's wise if you want to keep any level of of I j I think it would be you'd be hard-pressed in a relationship, any type of relationship, to just be full on honest all the time. I know.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:14

Remember that radical honesty book he read? A radical what was that?

SPEAKER_03 1:10:20

Yeah, wait, was that what it was? Yeah, radical like radical truth or radical.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:23

Yeah, it was like radical where you like really say if you had like a coworker you were attracted to, you would like tell them. Remember the woman said that and I was like, what? That's great.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:34

Yeah, I mean, I just think it would be really hard. I mean it is wise. There is a level, though it doesn't feel the most comfortable to engage in these. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, think about child rearing. Yeah. That in and of itself. Right.

unknown 1:10:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:52

Do you like my art? No. It's it's a rent. It's garbage. It's yeah, you're an outsider. Or it's like that. Do better. It's like in my kids uh love Happy Gilmore, and in that movie, it's like, yeah, I've he's like finger paintings. Yeah, he's like, You're a kindergarten teacher. I've seen those finger paintings your kids do, and they suck. Like you're gonna say that to a kid, right? Like, so I just think it's yeah, important to, you know, you gotta Can you imagine?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:27

Like, your kids are like, Do you like this? You're like, it's not for me personally.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:32

But I'm not gonna see you again, so I'm gonna give you the God's honest truth right now.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:37

I mean, but then I you know what I thought about as you were reading that definition. I I've definitely like gone to a friend's like event or something, and like I remember I went to some event where I got like a million mosquito bites because it rained and it was whatever, and like telling them like maybe they said, like, did you have a good time of being like, oh, the best? And then it's sort of like, I guess if you get asked directly maybe there's wisdom there, but then to me, I'm like, if she didn't ask me directly, maybe it would have been helpful to be like, oh, it's wonderful to see you. I love you, something true that's like warm and connected that isn't like I enjoyed this event where I have now 75 mosquito weights. Like, you know. You could just say nothing. You could say nothing. Is that an option?

SPEAKER_03 1:12:28

Well, now I'm thinking is it wise to not want people to white lie to you? Because now we're turning it. Oh, this is a 180 here. Is it wise to white lie? Is that really what you want in your life? You don't want people to white lie to you. Is it wise to ask?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:53

It's like I you know, I've told you this. Like, I appreciate and value feedback, and I really hate getting it. It's so painful. Like, it really hurts. I'm really sensitive. So it's like I know it helps me, and like it's the like major thing that helps me grow. But sometimes getting it can feel like taking a bullet, you know. So it's like, I guess if I'm really in line with my wise mind, I don't want people to lie to me. But I have a part that really does. And it can really it's also like an energy thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:28

Like, I don't I don't like I don't have the energy to like be honest with you or like take like it's just like, yeah, thank you so much. This is great. Like, I like I don't have like the whole capacity to like really engage with it.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:39

It's like social lubricant, you need it almost.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:42

Yeah, my line is like small talking, is like a necessity.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:46

Yeah, I don't want the truth all the time. I don't, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:50

I guess I don't either, but it's like but sometimes it's like it's probably best even too in those situations where you can maybe almost both tell, but you're sort of like yeah, yeah, definitely. And then it's like like you've caught me doing it a lot because you're very honest.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:09

When I like show you my art and you'll be like, it was good.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:15

Oh, you mean like more like if we're not gonna do it? No, if we're out to dinner and like I've caught you doing it on this podcast.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:21

Really?

SPEAKER_02 1:14:21

Yeah, where like John will bring something up that you like that I know you hate, and you'll be like, Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:27

Wait, with John? Now she's been lying to me.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:31

Wait, it was like I can't I can't think of an example. It's not often.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:37

It's probably when I bring up something awesome.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:40

Like when he brought up Dog Man, you're just like, Yeah, Dogman is. It wasn't funny. Okay, I'm sure I've definitely And I was like, oh wow, I know you hate that, and that could have been like an interesting that would have been like an interesting moment of conflict, but you just wanted to like move on with the conversation.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:57

Okay, I know.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:58

And in my heart, in my heart of hearts, I was like really hoping you'd be like, oh John, I hate that.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:02

Yeah, but I'll tell you stuff I hate. I'll just be honest with you. Yeah, so that must have been like I had another thought to say. And I just was like, we're moving to the city. Yeah, love that.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:14

Yeah, love dog man. It wasn't dogman.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:18

No, but you'll I'll sometimes do it if we'll be like out. And like someone will be like, I liked whatever. Do you like it? Or it's like if someone's like, I love Ted Lasso, and I'll be like, Yeah, and you'll be like, you'll look at me like I know you fucking hate Ted Lasso. And I'm like, yeah, I'm not gonna tell this person who's upset, like tears in their eyes talking about Ted Lasso. Like, I'm not gonna break their heart.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:40

Is G incapable of white lying? I mean, is this your you can do it?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:45

Can you do it?

SPEAKER_03 1:15:46

I can do it.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:47

Is this your superpower and your weakness?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:49

Because he does have truth serum.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:51

Yeah, but I I'm able to.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:53

I skew truthfully. Yeah, but but I think it's I think it means something that even I think it can be wise to white lie.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:01

Yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:02

It's that like social loop, like it's like, do you want I think it's like almost like being a martyr to yourself and to others to like always tell the truth? Like, is that even so wise? But I know that if your mantra is like, I'm always gonna white lie about everything, well what's your that definitely doesn't feel wise.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:20

What's my goal? Yeah, like it's like it's are are you just trying to like what's the most productive like for that situation? Yeah, like are you if you're just trying to get out of that that situation, you don't really care about the the you know genuineness of the interaction. Like I'm just ready to go.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:35

I gotta go.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:36

That's that's probably the most productive yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:40

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:41

I don't think I don't think my youngest son White lies a lot. I think Shane Shane is a treasure. He's a a straight shooter and oh yeah, he's definitely read me. He's definitely like getting humble right to the right to the core. Yeah, yeah. And sometimes it's like Shane, just you can lie to me. Like that's right. You can save my feelings sometimes. It's fine. I do have them. Yeah, I do have some of those feelings in there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:11

Um I white white light, I don't even think this counts as a white light. We were in the garage. Josh and I've been watching these like horror TV shows, and then we like went in the garage, and there was like a woman in the garage who was like hunched over and like walking really slowly and like very scary looking. And she's like, Do you want a lawn chair? Like she had put a lawn chair in there, and I literally was like, No, we're moving to a place that doesn't have any outdoor space. And she was like, Okay, everyone's moving out of here. And I was like, and then Josh was like, Wait, we do have we have outdoor space in our new place. And I was like, I I needed to, I felt unsafe. I needed to get away from this like terrifying woman. That was a lie.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:49

Yeah, it was like if Josh is like, no, excuse me, actually, we do have outdoor space. Kelly, let's get a little closer.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:57

We do, you're just very scary. Let's get a little closer to this person and get down to the get down to the truth here. Yes, it was like terrifying.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:04

Oh yeah, that's funny. I chased after her. I was like, I know you're moving out, but like I need you to know that we have outdoor space.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:11

I need you to know that even though you're holding a gun, we do have outdoor space. Yeah, I think it's wise. I can't, I mean, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:22

It's not always, but it can.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:24

It's not always, and I think, yeah, how much are you leaning into it? Are you lying about everything all the time? Then it's not the quote unquote white lie anymore, but yeah, I don't know. I think if you're if you say it's unwise, then there's a part of me that thinks that then you have to almost be okay to hear uh a truth all the time, then oh yeah, yeah. Definitely, well, yeah, you know, it's not wise. I'm gonna be truthful to everybody. It's like, well, then if you put that out there, like people gotta be able to call you out on your shit.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:59

Give you some serious feedback, seriously. You gotta take searing feedback, searing feedback. Yeah, okay. Well, this we need it, yeah. So it's wise.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:12

Yeah, in content. It can be if you want. Sure, maybe. It can be.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:16

It can be. Josh, do you agree?

SPEAKER_02 1:19:18

Yeah, it's wise. It's wise. It's wise. On a binary scale, it's wise. It's wise, yeah. Because that's what we gotta do.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:25

Yeah, totally. And now we'll review the tape to see when Kelly was white lying to me.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:29

So I know now I'm really gonna be kidding.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:32

I'm gonna go back. I'm gonna go back in the animal.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:34

It might have been Ted Lasso.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:35

Oh, Ted Lasso.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:36

But then I feel like that's one of the ones I lie about a lot. Or shrinking. What are you afraid of? People's people thinking that you're a bad person.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:44

I said it to someone and they were like, Well, what could you possibly not like about Ted Lasso? And I was like, I can't get into it. It's so fucking stupid and cheesy. Yeah, it's too positive. It's too positive. There's a lot of toxic position from this like white dude. Like, I'm just like, no.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:02

White dudes are toxic. Definitely.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:06

And white lies are.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:07

Yeah. Unless they're wise.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:09

Unless they're wise, then they're nice. Well, that was another

Contacts Book Recs And Closing

SPEAKER_03 1:20:13

episode. That was an episode.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:14

Thank you so much, Ethan, for joining us. This was a blast.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:18

Yeah, this is like kind of fun. Appreciate the honesty.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:22

Yeah, it wasn't for me, but no, this is a really good time.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:26

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:27

Yeah. Now, okay. If people would want to reach out to you, is there anywhere they could reach you? Your social media or your email or anything. Or you can also say, at this point, I'm unreachable.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:39

For what purposes?

SPEAKER_00 1:20:41

To ask you questions. I mean, they can't really work with you unless they go to the school.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:46

Oh, you mean like professionally? I see what you're saying. Um, yeah, that that channel's not really open at the moment, but if you want to just like chat or something, yeah, I you can, I guess, find me on Instagram or Facebook or my junk email is ecrass445 at gmail.com. E-K-R-A-S 445 at gmail. I've never plugged my email. This is I love it.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:07

That's what we do. It's the nerd. That's what we do. I do it every day.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:09

You can find me at buttsbutz.jonathan at gmail.com.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:13

Nice. And if you want to reach me or work with me or suggest things for the pot or beyond the pot or whatever, you can find me at kkpsychotherapy.com and you can um send me any query.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:24

Yeah, and give book rec. And give bookrex, yes, please. Comments from Kelly's Dime.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:31

Yeah. Deep books that are too dark. Is that even a thing?

SPEAKER_03 1:21:37

And romantic.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:38

Yeah. Yeah, a little romance, a little bit. Yeah, Anna C would be great. Cool. And maybe I'll try to write one one day.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:45

Do it.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:46

Yeah. Josh.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:47

Josh. You can find me at joshbayerfilms.com. Bayer as in the aspirin. And I am an editor. I edit things. So anything you want, and that is what I mainly do for freelance. I edit this podcast. I'm not a therapist, and you can reach out to me about that.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:07

Wouldn't it be funny if someone reached out and said they wanted to see you as a few?

SPEAKER_02 1:22:10

They wanted to work with you.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:11

You're like, I'd actually like to work with Josh.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:13

My rate is $2 an hour, and I'd be happy to make it.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:17

Yeah. Your rate is actually much higher than that. You know it.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:21

For um for editing. Oh, for editing, it's don't even add. You can't afford me. Can you get like a bundle? Can you like an editing and therapy? Yeah, editing and a back rub.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:33

And a back rub and therapy.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:35

And therapy.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:37

Okay, thanks everyone. We'll catch you next week at Thank You Blanket Force. For the music, yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:43

And we'll catch you next week.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:44

We'll catch you next week. Bye. The Wisemind Happy Hour podcast is for entertainment purposes only, not to be treated as medical advice. If you are struggling with your mental health, please seek medical attention or counseling.