OPPOSITE TO EMOTION ACTION

What if we told you that 96 % of your emotional impulses are counter to your values...would you be surprised? Better yet, what if we challenged you to act "in opposite" to your impulses? Maybe this sounds crazy, but studies show that it could change your life. (Let's just be a little loose with the definition of "opposite" 😉)

- music by blanket forts -

Transcript

Welcome Back And Catching Up

SPEAKER_04 0:04

Okay, welcome to the wise mind happy hour. I'm Kelly.

SPEAKER_02 0:08

And I'm John. Welcome.

SPEAKER_04 0:10

Welcome. Let's um We're back.

SPEAKER_02 0:16

It's been two weeks.

SPEAKER_04 0:17

It's been two weeks.

SPEAKER_02 0:18

How would you guys record without me? That's a real to our audience. They don't even ask. They just have I'm kidding. They ask.

SPEAKER_04 0:25

We just tell them, like, lose our address for the night.

SPEAKER_01 0:28

They're like, actually, we're under the weather.

SPEAKER_04 0:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:33

Uh, how was it?

SPEAKER_04 0:34

It was good. It was really nice, actually. Josh's friend Mikkel came into town.

SPEAKER_02 0:40

And I haven't had a chance to listen to the episode yet.

SPEAKER_04 0:42

Oh, yeah. It's we talked about like language because he's a Yiddishist, so kind of like a Yiddish scholar. And he has like a new translation that he did of Max Spitzkoff. Yeah, it's like a he's like a it's almost like he called it like trash in like as in it's like a detective series.

SPEAKER_01 1:03

Oh, oh, okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:04

Um kind of like ancient trash in a way, which is like interesting in itself. Um, and Josh heard him do a reading on it and you liked it. Really nice, nice and pulpy, yeah, very cool. But we talked about language and like the wisdom of studying language and how you language things, and it was so fun. He so um has tons of information to share, and also he's like incredibly curious, and it was just such a fun that's great.

SPEAKER_02 1:31

I can't wait to listen to language. I mean, it's so important to what we do.

SPEAKER_04 1:35

Uh totally, totally. So yeah, it was fun, but we missed you, of course.

SPEAKER_02 1:40

I missed you all. It's been busy. It feels like a really long time away.

SPEAKER_04 1:45

It almost feels like a month rather than two weeks.

SPEAKER_02 1:48

Yeah, when the notification came up on my phone that we were recording, I was like, man, I haven't seen them in such a long time.

SPEAKER_04 1:54

I know.

SPEAKER_02 1:55

Which I, you know, two weeks is kind of a long time for us.

SPEAKER_04 1:58

Yeah, it is, and like a life just like moves fast. It's like it doesn't stop. I feel like I'll I'll skip a week with certain clients, like obviously because of our schedules or whatever. And then so there's some cases where they're just like, oh my god, there's like 20 things I have to update you on. And I'm like, wow, our lives are so like chock full of stuff.

SPEAKER_02 2:20

So many things all the time.

SPEAKER_04 2:22

For us, we're moving the boxes.

SPEAKER_02 2:24

Yeah, I like it. Yeah, so we're like although, but this is the last episode in here, right?

SPEAKER_04 2:30

This is literally our last episode.

SPEAKER_02 2:32

Wow, this is where it was born.

SPEAKER_04 2:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:35

Here.

SPEAKER_04 2:36

Oh remember we used to sit on the couch. We used to sit on the couch, which was fun. I like the couch. I prefer this, but I do like the couch.

SPEAKER_02 2:44

I feel like I got a lot. I think I sweat every episode. I got real sweaty on the couch, I feel like.

SPEAKER_04 2:50

Yeah, because the couch has that like velvety.

SPEAKER_02 2:53

We have the same type of velvety feel, which is so comfortable and nice and deep, and you just sink into it. And I think when I'm talking and trying to sound a certain way like I know something, I sweat.

SPEAKER_04 3:07

And I'm really straining my sweating.

The Last Week Of School Feeling

SPEAKER_02 3:10

Um, yeah, but my kids are out of school now. Wow.

SPEAKER_04 3:13

So, how do you feel about that?

SPEAKER_02 3:15

I get very sentimental about it. There's a version of it where I have my head down through the school year, it's so packed, it's so busy. And then when it comes to an end, I start to reflect on the whole year, and it just makes me think about how much my kids have grown in the last year, how effortful. It almost kind of takes my breath away sometimes, where it's like, wow, like a lot has happened. Um and it's just it's exciting. Like summer, you probably remember, like as a kid, that last day of school, that last week of school is oh my god, I'm gonna bottle that.

SPEAKER_04 3:55

It's electric.

SPEAKER_02 3:56

Yeah, they're not bringing backpacks, they're in shorts, they're hanging out, you don't have to do homework. So every day that last week, we're at the turf with them, they're with their friends. It was just that last week of school. If you could bottle that out, you could sell it because it was great.

SPEAKER_04 4:11

It's like, will any of us ever feel that type of joy again?

SPEAKER_02 4:14

It's amazing.

SPEAKER_04 4:15

Oh, it's amazing. They got the earbooks and that.

SPEAKER_02 4:18

They're getting the yearbooks signed, they're having pizza parties, they're doing water balloons, they're doing field day.

SPEAKER_04 4:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:24

Yeah. What a great time.

SPEAKER_04 4:25

You know, it's interesting you say that because my niece Circia was in kindergarten and she just finished. And I talked to her like that week, and then we just saw them, and I asked her, like, oh wow, so it's Thursday's your last day of kindergarten. How do you feel about that? And she's like, sad. And then she's like, but good. Yeah, that's both. Sad, but good. I've I had this moment of like really feeling so happy for her that she likes school enough to feel sad that it's ending. Because I actually never felt that. I was like, fuck this place. Yeah, I'm out of here.

SPEAKER_02 5:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:02

Did you like feel sad?

SPEAKER_02 5:04

I think certain years I did. I don't think it was, I think I was more often excited about the summer. I have a summer birthday. Yeah. But there were years that were really, really just phenomenal years with my friends that it was like, oh man.

SPEAKER_04 5:20

In elementary school?

SPEAKER_02 5:22

Yeah, like in elementary school, where it was like, oh, we're gonna get new homerooms next year, or we're gonna have, you know, and you kind of get that the vibe and you get the the routine going. And um, but I think more often than not, I was excited. I think both boys did say, I think Wes Moore, that you know, there was a little bit of some sadness about which I can appreciate. Totally. One of his friends, I wasn't there, but one of his friends apparently served like, have a good summer. And he was like, I'm gonna blink my eye, it's gonna be August 24th.

SPEAKER_04 5:54

Like he was he's like uh like an old man, just kind of like, you know, before I blink my eye, you know, he like parroted something. Oh, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 6:02

And of course, Wes takes that to heart. He comes home, he's like, It is gonna be August 24th. So and I was like, This is the first this isn't even the first day. Yeah, this is the night of the last day of school.

SPEAKER_04 6:14

Yeah, you haven't even started.

SPEAKER_02 6:16

We are the furthest away from starting school in this moment. Yeah, it's enjoy.

SPEAKER_04 6:20

Yeah, so they're uh so cute. He was like worried. I could see your little self being like that.

SPEAKER_03 6:25

I always, yeah, a future, future trip.

SPEAKER_02 6:27

Future oriented time traveling. I love it. Junior high is gonna be so hard. You know, and it's like let's pump it.

SPEAKER_04 6:35

Wait, is he gonna be in junior high?

SPEAKER_02 6:37

Uh middle school. So wait, he's gonna be in sixth grade.

SPEAKER_04 6:40

Oh Wes is gonna be in sixth grade, sixth grade, yeah. Big man on campus. Yeah, that that is radical.

SPEAKER_02 6:48

Sixth and third. Yeah, Shane will be in third.

SPEAKER_04 6:51

I don't know why the third makes a little more sense to me. I guess sixth grader.

SPEAKER_02 6:55

Sixth grade. Yeah, I know. Oh my god. Isn't that wild? This is scary, yeah. It's scary. Wes should be scary.

SPEAKER_04 7:03

It happens so fast.

SPEAKER_02 7:04

It does.

SPEAKER_04 7:05

I mean, I feel like I remember when you basically had a baby. Yeah, because when I came to the house, sixth grade is a full-blown person.

SPEAKER_02 7:10

Full blown.

SPEAKER_04 7:11

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 7:12

This is their first full week off. Sarah took them to the East Coast to see her family. Um, and I'm here so that we can redo our kitchen. Uh oh so they're out of the house so we can get some stuff done in our kitchen. But and they're not coming back till Saturday. So it the what feels like an enormous amount of time I have is wild.

SPEAKER_04 7:35

Wow. Yeah, what have you been doing?

SPEAKER_02 7:38

Well, I had to get all the stuff out of my cabinet, so Sunday was a big day of doing that. Uh we were looking at the same moon, clearing out our clearing out the cabinets, but I ended up going to the pool that day by myself. Oh, fun. Reading a book. I finished a book, did some errands. Disappearing Earth.

SPEAKER_04 7:57

Oh, it's like a climate change.

SPEAKER_02 7:58

It isn't, actually. Um, it was it's fiction. It's a bunch of different perspectives. Each chapter is like different characters' perspectives and the impact of these two children that ended up going missing. Oh, and kind of this unsolvable disappearance that there's maybe one witness that saw these kids get into a car and it could have been like they were kidnapped. But each chapter kind of yeah, it's it's a light read, like I like. By the pool.

SPEAKER_04 8:23

I honestly can take a mystery like that more than by a pool. Certain things.

SPEAKER_02 8:27

Uh, nobody was reading Flesh by the pool, I'll tell you that much.

SPEAKER_04 8:29

I found the New York Times list of beach reads. I could send it to you if you want.

SPEAKER_02 8:33

Was Flesh on there?

SPEAKER_04 8:34

Flesh was not on there.

SPEAKER_02 8:36

People are gonna think we're seeing Fletch, like the movie Fletch with Chevy Chase. Chevy Chase. The feeling of not having to rush to pick somebody up or drop somebody off or make dinner or do homework.

SPEAKER_04 8:47

It's so wild. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:49

Last night on we FaceTimed, and I was really like after we got off the phone, I like really missed them a lot. I was like, ugh, the house is so quiet. Totally. And so I'm trying to really enjoy it, and I am, and at the same time, like late at night, I'm like, there's nobody here. Yeah, I was like itching to come over here.

SPEAKER_00 9:08

It was like it was like 6 45.

SPEAKER_02 9:11

I'm like, when is when is the clock gonna move faster? I don't I love it. Just looking at the clock, I'm like, I'm ready, ready, I'll come out over.

SPEAKER_04 9:18

I obviously don't have kids yet. We all know when I have time without Josh. The second you leave, I miss you.

SPEAKER_03 9:25

If that's okay to say, even with all my spiraling, of course, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 9:31

Maybe that's like a dependency thing, but I do notice like excitement about the time to myself, but I also like instantly am like, oh, I miss him. And going to sleep is hard, you know, because you're like, oh, I'm just so used to this person like being here.

SPEAKER_02 9:47

Yeah, I remember years and years ago it was a holiday where my brother and his wife, and maybe his oldest, were staying with my parents for a holiday, and so was I. And I just remember my mom like I was saying goodnight to her or something, and I was like, Oh, yeah, you know, I hope you get a good night's sleep. And she was like, Well, of course I'm gonna get a good night's sleep both my boys are in the house. She was like, I get my best night's sleep when I when my boys are here.

SPEAKER_04 10:14

Oh, that's sweet. I feel like some parents say the opposite.

SPEAKER_02 10:16

And and that's was my feeling last night after I got off the phone because I don't

Missing Them In A Quiet House

SPEAKER_02 10:20

think I slept that well. And it was like, oh yeah, when everybody, when the unit is together, that's when I sleep the best.

SPEAKER_04 10:27

I feel like maybe a lot of parents would lean into the joke side of things, they'd be like, No, kids are almost the best sleep of my life, you know, kind of thing. But like, what's the real experience? Like, I think I sleep best when you're there. Oh, yeah, totally. Even if you're click clacking away on your computer all night.

SPEAKER_01 10:44

Ooh, the plot thickens. Snoring. Oh, snoring. The sleep divorce.

SPEAKER_04 10:49

For some reason, your snoring this weekend was popping off.

SPEAKER_03 10:54

Maybe it was the change of climate.

SPEAKER_04 10:55

Yeah, it's probably because it was so humid. Where there's the house was pretty humid.

SPEAKER_02 10:59

I think the sleep divorce is where it's at. I mean, I think spending some sleep separate. We don't do it every night. I think though we're intentional about some nights, and and I usually play tennis early in the morning, so so I don't wake her up. I'll just sleep on the couch.

SPEAKER_04 11:13

Yeah. Every morning.

SPEAKER_02 11:15

No, I don't play every morning. I usually try to play three times a week, two or three times a week.

SPEAKER_04 11:19

Oh, that's pretty good.

SPEAKER_02 11:20

And then we feel more rejuvenated from that, particularly right, because I snore as well. Um Sarah's a Sarah's a light sleeper, so um Wow. Yeah. So I think it's I think every once in a while it's it can be useful. Yeah. And get a really solid night with the case.

SPEAKER_04 11:37

Wait, what is what does Sarah do when you're snoring and she can't sleep?

SPEAKER_02 11:40

Usually it's a routine of a few hits to get me repositioned.

SPEAKER_04 11:47

Yeah, I do.

SPEAKER_02 11:47

And then she throws in the and then she throws in the towel. And she leaps. And she'll go to the couch.

SPEAKER_04 11:52

Oh the couch.

SPEAKER_02 11:53

Yeah, she'll just sleep on the couch.

SPEAKER_04 11:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 11:55

She has always struggled to fall asleep. Okay. Just in general, it takes her a long time to get to sleep. And on top of that, she's a light sleeper.

SPEAKER_04 12:03

I mean, I it's funny, like I have insomnia probably three times a month. And I think mine is totally hormonal. If it's not one of those nights, I can pretty much fall asleep and stay asleep.

SPEAKER_02 12:15

Even with the snoring?

SPEAKER_04 12:16

The snoring only bothers me on those special nights.

SPEAKER_02 12:20

Oh, otherwise you can sleep through it.

SPEAKER_04 12:22

Yeah. Oh. And it's good for you. Sometimes I'll wake up because I have to go to the bathroom. And a lot of times you're not snoring. But sometimes then he is, and I'm like, damn. But you'll give a few nudges. Yeah, I'll give a nudge. But then I usually fall back asleep whether or not he stops snoring. So it doesn't impact my sleep in a way like I would ever mention to like a doctor. Or it's funny because like sometimes he'll go to bed before me. Yeah. Rarely, but like on the weekend you did, and I'm like reading next to you. Or you took a nap one day. Yeah. Cause the girls, their their new thing is like right when they wake up, they bust in our room when we stay over. Which like they used to, I think my sister-in-law used to kind of be like, okay, guys, we're gonna wait for them to wake up. And now they're like kind of old enough and have enough like mastery over their like minds and bodies that they're like, fuck this, they're waking up with us. So we're just gonna get so like both of us the first morning, it was like the door opens, and it's you know, it's 645 there, it's 545 in Chicago, and we went to bed late. It was a Friday night, so we know we're tired. So Josh took a nap and I was reading next to him, thinking maybe I would like doze off or something, and he was like snoring away. So I was really able to be like, Oh, this is really what it sounds like. Yeah, and it's loud. Have you stored forever? No, it's recent, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:46

But I think it's one of those things that if you can muster up the this isn't like about you, I still like sleeping with you, and right, all those things. This is just about like literally quality sleep. I think the sleep divorce sometimes is a good thing. I don't think I want I'm not telling you you should do it, I'm just saying I think it it's beneficial.

SPEAKER_03 14:07

I might take to the couch tonight. No, snore into the couch, snore into the couch.

SPEAKER_04 14:13

My mom was like suggesting things. I think I said this on the open the window. She was like, open the window or whatever, or you can go in the other room and open the window, something and John's Josh goes, I think I'll just snore into the breeze.

SPEAKER_02 14:27

Just take it right out. Carefree.

SPEAKER_04 14:29

Just carefree. It's so funny.

SPEAKER_02 14:32

I think those are listen, there are good sleeping hacks out there. It's like the separate blankets, separate comforters.

SPEAKER_04 14:37

I know we tried the separate blankets, and somehow that didn't work either.

SPEAKER_02 14:41

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 14:42

Either. Oh, oh, you mean besides like sleep divorce, which is like not even a well the either makes it sound like we're under such duress.

SPEAKER_02 14:50

You're under sleeping duress.

SPEAKER_04 14:51

Well, I like got really yes, I do. I got really gung-ho about the idea of the separate blankets. It's like the Swedish method.

SPEAKER_02 14:59

Yeah. So I was like, I mean, there's gonna change and quality of life in those Scandinavian countries through the roof.

SPEAKER_04 15:06

But could it be from the saunas and not from and the outdoor living, the life, the fact that everyone's like kind of from the same culture?

SPEAKER_02 15:13

Did not Donald Trump of it all on there.

SPEAKER_04 15:16

Like we did it, and I was like enthusiastic about it. And then it was like something about it wasn't working for us. Maybe the blankets just felt so like bunched up and stuff. Maybe I needed to like order separate.

SPEAKER_02 15:31

What size blankets did you have?

SPEAKER_04 15:32

Yeah, maybe they were full size and they should be twin size.

SPEAKER_02 15:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:36

Or what do you do?

SPEAKER_02 15:37

Well, we have a king-sized bed, but two queen comforters. So it's not like we have two king comforters, it's we sized it down so that it's not interrupting the other person.

SPEAKER_04 15:49

Okay, I mean, that's interesting. And um, now I'm just like getting into the logistics. Well, let's get into the logistics. How do you make the bed?

SPEAKER_02 15:57

Because a king is not-I like that you're assuming I make my bed. Oh, you don't. I like that assumption. We're, I mean, we're really getting into the weeds here, but we don't do a top sheet that isn't.

SPEAKER_04 16:08

I'm I'm queen, no top sheet, but Josh likes a top sheet too.

SPEAKER_02 16:11

I hate a top sheet. Okay. Is it wise to have a top sheet? Have we done that?

SPEAKER_04 16:14

It's millennial. Actually, we should do that. It's a millennial to not have one kind of.

SPEAKER_02 16:18

I hate top sheets. Yeah. I hate them. They're too constricting. Okay. I don't like it. I like sometimes sleeping with the leg out. I don't want that. I just want the I've come around to it. We'll just throw the comforters up. So my half will have my comforter, hers will be overlapping mine a little bit.

SPEAKER_04 16:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 16:32

And that's it.

SPEAKER_04 16:33

And that's it. Okay. That was my question. Is like, because a king-sized bed is not two full queens, right?

SPEAKER_02 16:40

No. That would be huge. That might be a California king.

SPEAKER_04 16:43

Actually, you know what's funny? Because I've been looking up these measurements because I have, you know, my own version of OCD where I'm like ordering a king-size frame and a mattress from elsewhere. So trying to make sure, like, you know, Googling, like, is every king-size bed the same measurement?

SPEAKER_02 16:58

I'm pretty sure it is, unless it's a California king.

SPEAKER_04 17:00

Well, so then it showed me all the different bed measurements. And I just thought the California King was just bigger.

SPEAKER_02 17:07

It's just wider. It's not longer. I thought it was just wider. It's shorter but wider?

unknown 17:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 17:13

Oh. It's it's I thought it was the same length, just wider, but it's I guess I'm wrong.

SPEAKER_04 17:19

It's shorter than the king. Hmm. By a little bit. And it's like riddle me. Why? Why wouldn't they just make it bigger?

SPEAKER_02 17:25

Yeah. I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 17:28

They must have thought of that, but who do I talk to about this?

SPEAKER_02 17:32

The podcast, all of our listeners is who we're talking to.

SPEAKER_04 17:35

Because that like I was busy when I came across that little snippet, and I was

Snoring And The Sleep Divorce

SPEAKER_04 17:40

like, I gotta talk to someone about this. Why is it shorter?

SPEAKER_02 17:43

I mean, talk about I'm just spewing privilege here, but the King Bet is a game changer. We just ordered it. Uh I mean, I You're never gonna go back. Like, you're there's gonna be your life before it, and then there's your life after it.

SPEAKER_04 17:55

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 17:56

It's so much room. I'm so when you want to cuddle, when you want to be close, you got it. And then when you don't want to be touched, you got it. Like it's perfect. There's no, oh, this just feels like we're too close. You know what? If it does, move over because you got the room. Oh I'm really and for a tall person, which I'm tall. You're tall. Yeah. It's gonna feel great. For me, it's just it was a game changer. Well, my thing. I feel like I fit on a bed now.

SPEAKER_04 18:24

Yeah. My thing too is like being tall as I am and pregnant.

SPEAKER_02 18:28

Well, right, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:29

Like at some point.

SPEAKER_02 18:30

You're gonna need Sarah. Really liked one of those, uh, it almost looks like a tooth. It's a pillow that is like a U. Yes. Yeah, that was huge for like a donut pillow or something. Well, but it's like long. So you can hug it and you can, you know, it kind of wraps your whole body. Yeah, like it's just very it was very bad.

SPEAKER_04 18:49

Yeah, and you need the pillow between the legs when you're pregnant, right?

SPEAKER_02 18:51

That's like the whole thing. Yeah, there's a lot of different sleeping issues with pregnancy. But anyway, totally wow, we're really went off.

SPEAKER_04 18:59

I know. I mean, this is what happens.

SPEAKER_02 19:01

I can't wait to sleep under your king now. I've been sleeping under your crew. We're gonna have so much space over there. So much space all around under there. Six Christmas trees under there with so many things under there.

SPEAKER_04 19:11

Yeah, yeah. Okay, well, we can get into our topic. Why not?

SPEAKER_02 19:15

You're jazzing this topic. I know you are.

SPEAKER_04 19:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:18

You sent me an article. Oh, wait, we're doing the article? No, but you sent me the article. Oh, and I was like, great, let's do the article here. And you said, No, no, no, we're still doing the skill.

SPEAKER_04 19:30

Yeah, we're doing the skill.

SPEAKER_02 19:31

We're doing the DVT skill.

SPEAKER_04 19:32

Yes, because the article is great. We'll do the article next week. You guys will have this great article coming your way. But no, I definitely I love to come back to the skills. For sure. You know, it's funny, like the the skill that we're doing today is called opposite to emotion action.

SPEAKER_02 19:49

OEA.

SPEAKER_04 19:50

OEA, which we'll talk all about. I even thought about this this morning. Like, my obviously, the way I work as a therapist has evolved so much. So sometimes I will have this dilemma of like, where really in my authentic way of working, like, where do the skills fit in? With EMDR, like often you can do DBT skills in what they call like the resourcing phase, where you're helping someone prepare for trauma reprocessing. DBT is like lends itself so well to that phase. Sometimes in parts work, you actually use skills with the parts to help them relax. Sometimes they need skills in some cases. And it's like, where authentically am I using those skills for myself in this whole like trying to get pregnant process, moving process, like all of this? You know, I have a lot of feelings. I get really overwhelmed with feeling at different parts of this, as Josh can totally attest. I I thought to myself today as I was getting out of bed today, not not even thinking about this podcast, I was like, I need to pull out those tip skills again. Like, because I had these moments. My little like fertility testing thing wouldn't work in the morning, and I had to take it in Cleveland, and I brought it, and I brought all the pieces of it, and then it just wouldn't connect to their Wi-Fi. I mean, I felt like I was you went to a 10 immediately. Yeah. I mean, I truly was having a tantrum. I was like, because it was like so stressful to bring it all, and it's the move, and like it's vulnerable to like be taking a test like that. My my nieces are literally outside the bathroom door saying, Where's Kelly? Where's Kelly? Where's Kelly? It's early in the morning because you have to do it early in the morning. I mean, it was like a nightmare, and then it would work. It was too much, and I just was like, Why won't this just work? Give me ice and I sometimes I couldn't really come down. And this is when I like a little bit kind of displaced my feeling onto Josh. And then, like, I had the natural separation of me needing to tend to my nieces. And I almost need because I won't have that all the time, I need the Hip skill to like help me calm down or like even opposite action.

SPEAKER_02 22:06

Which tip is temperature change for those of you out there intense exercise or movement, paced breathing, slash progressive repaired muscle relaxation, which is a distress tolerance skill. Totally.

SPEAKER_04 22:17

And it's for high, high, high dress to help kind of like pull you back to the anchor you, a strong anchor. Yes. And I really needed that. And you know what's funny? What also happened? This is like a sidebar. I was upset, and I ended up, you know, like freaking out a little bit on Josh, and then we resolved that. And then I kind of was like freaking out towards my mom, who was also there. And I was just like, it's just like nothing's working, and like it's so frustrating, and it's like so vulnerable to have to bring all this stuff and take this. And I'm just so frustrated. Like, I'm just so frustrated. And I was like mad. And my nieces were around in the playroom. And my middle niece all of a sudden was kind of like mirroring my affect. And her mom, Brittany, was like, Sweetie, what's wrong? Like, what happened? What is making you upset? And she just kind of was like, hmm. And I'm like, Oh, I think she is mirroring me.

SPEAKER_02 23:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:13

You know, and she doesn't understand like what's going on with me. But modeling is yeah. So then that kind of really pulled me out of it where I was like, you need to like ground a little bit here. And I was able to be like talking to her and kind of let it go. And and I, of course, in the back of my mind, I was like, I know I'm gonna let this go and

King Beds And Sleep Logistics

SPEAKER_04 23:30

it's fine. And also, little did I know this month the fertility doctor would be like doing a blood test for all that stuff. So I really don't even need to do that this month. But anyway, I need something to just help me come to the ground. Like as aware as I am of my feelings, as much therapy as I'm in, I'm like, I need these skills sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 23:50

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 23:51

Yeah. Do you ever feel that where you're like this?

SPEAKER_02 23:55

I would love to be in a space where we're processing everything all the time. Yeah. It's just not realistic.

SPEAKER_04 24:01

It's not real.

SPEAKER_02 24:02

And people don't want to be processing all the time. And I one of the reasons I like opposite action as a skill is there's such a parallel process to me of being in therapy, because I think the engagement in therapy is opposite to emotion action.

SPEAKER_04 24:16

Yeah.

unknown 24:16

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 24:16

Because there's so many urges to not talk about things in therapy, to avoid things. And whether the person is cognizant of that and will make them more, you know, aware of it. I think opposite action is playing itself out. Yeah. If somebody is engaging in therapy, but they're having strong aversion to it, or you know, that type of thing. But yes, absolutely. The skills are so useful. Yeah. A lot of situations that come out of nowhere that you're not in a moment to process it. Yeah. That comes after the fact. Right.

SPEAKER_04 24:49

Yeah. Or it's like you're not in a context where that's appropriate.

SPEAKER_02 24:52

Or you're not in a context. Yeah. I'm surrounded by like a three-year-old, a four-year-old, or even surrounded by people, not in that scenario, but you're in a context where you wouldn't want to share that stuff with those people, or it's not a safe space for that kind of processing. And so the skills are so useful moment to moment.

SPEAKER_04 25:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:12

When that stuff just really kind of comes out of nowhere. I mean, certainly you can cope ahead and be intentional about it. It's such a strong foundation, though, to have and to call on them when needed.

SPEAKER_04 25:21

Yes. And even too, radical acceptance was huge. I just had to like turn the mind. Like, you know what, Callie? It doesn't work. Like you can keep like raging against this and pushing and pushing against this reality. It's not going to change.

SPEAKER_02 25:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:36

Like you're letting this go.

SPEAKER_02 25:38

And then you feel more dysregulated when you whether you engage with the urge more to lash out or to that's more dysregulating.

SPEAKER_00 25:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:46

Right. So an opposite to motion action is an emotion regulation skill.

Why Skills Still Matter

SPEAKER_02 25:50

Yeah. A lot of times people think it's a distress tolerance skill.

SPEAKER_04 25:53

I know. A lot of people do think that. Same with ride the wave.

SPEAKER_02 25:56

And you can use distress tolerance skills to help with it. But totally. There's no rule. Yeah. Which I mean, we don't have to get into that nitty-gritty too much, but just for clarification.

SPEAKER_04 26:06

Yeah. Well, yeah, let's talk about opposite to emotion action specifically. It's in, as we're saying, the you know, the four modules of DBT, it's in the emotion regulation, which is my change.

SPEAKER_02 26:22

Yeah, that's all right.

SPEAKER_04 26:23

So yeah, this is a way to help you regulate emotion, these skills do this.

SPEAKER_02 26:30

Right. Which it doesn't mean you won't be dysregulated. Yeah. Right. It's if you can do these, you can manage dysregulation much more effectively. Yeah. And the hope is that you won't swing so quickly out of wise mind, which is what this podcast is all about. And if you do, you're kind of in more of an emotional place, right? Emotion mind that you might not stay there as long. Or, you know, if you're practicing these skills more regularly, you you are able to be more in a wise-minded place, though never perfect. But so yeah, so the the idea is that every emotion comes with an urge. So an action urge or a tendency.

SPEAKER_00 27:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:09

Um, and a lot of those urges are really useful for us, right? And they keep us safe. And that's an important thing to remember that this isn't an all or nothing thing where you are always acting opposite of your urge. But the idea is if you can notice and validate having urges given a certain emotion and in a certain context, we do have the ability to not give in to those urges. We have the ability to act opposite to those urges or other to those urges. Because sometimes people get hung up too on, and I know you and I have probably engaged in this many times with people teaching this skill, like, well, I have to do the whole opposite.

SPEAKER_04 27:44

Yeah, the exact opposite.

SPEAKER_02 27:47

Like sometimes, sure, and other times, you know, it could just be a small step in a different direction, right?

SPEAKER_04 27:55

Yeah, something different.

SPEAKER_02 27:57

Yeah. So you're noticing your urges. If it's not effective for you to act on those urges, can you sit a little bit longer and maybe act in an opposite or other way?

SPEAKER_04 28:06

Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I think almost like the usefulness of opposite is like symbolic in a way. Like, you know, when you engage with like what's the opposite of this? Like you're you're bringing up probably like almost both hemispheres of the brain and like something more logical. And I like the idea of opposite, but if other, if something kind of like tangential is helpful, go for it.

SPEAKER_02 28:30

Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes doing nothing is opposite to emotion action.

SPEAKER_04 28:36

Totally.

SPEAKER_02 28:36

Which is also an important point. I mean, I think just to give a very basic example, an example we typically use is the idea you wake up and you are extremely overwhelmed, you're anxious, and so your urge might be telling you to what? To stay in bed, to withdraw, to cancel plans, to call into work. And is that the effective move? Or can you acknowledge those urges? Can you acknowledge your experience, what you're feeling, and start to act opposite of it, not fuse with that kind of emotional state? And how many of us have had the experience of we wake up in the morning, we feel like that. And once we start going, once we start the routine, it's not as if the anxiety is completely gone. Yeah. It just feels more, we feel more regulated. We feel the ability to continue to move in the direction that maybe is more effective for us.

SPEAKER_04 29:33

So there's a philosophy out there that like mood follows action, opposite to emotion action, sometimes called opposite action. It is great, especially for avoidance urges. Definitely like avoiding taking a shower when you feel really depressed. You know, you can feel disinterest and you can feel sadness that's there, or whatever feeling state is there. Literally picture or start to move your body in the direction of the thing that no isn't what you want to do in the moment, but is important to you, is value aligned. Yeah. If you don't want to do something, consider like, is it still meaningful to me?

SPEAKER_02 30:18

And does it fit the context? Yeah. You know, as humans, we make shortcuts and we generalize things, and we might have a very anxious feeling that it's very similar to anxiety that we feel in a situation where we might truly be at risk.

SPEAKER_04 30:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:33

And those two contexts are very different, but that's hard for us to sort out because the urge might still be the same to flee or to avoid or withdraw. And so it does take some ability to take that moment to kind of assess and see, like, yeah, is this value aligned or does it fit the context? Right. Yeah. Um, recently this has been coming up in sessions about having difficult conversations.

SPEAKER_01 30:58

Yeah. Oh, God.

SPEAKER_02 30:59

Like the fear, the anxiety, the the urge is to just not bring it up. The urge is to not have the conversation, to bring up the difficult topic. And it's can we validate that and that makes sense? And at the same time, what would it be like to step in to have it, to at least set aside some time, even with the person, to let them know you would like to talk? Like that could be some opposite to motion action moves that we're taking.

SPEAKER_04 31:24

Yeah. Yeah. It's funny as you say that. Sometimes that can even come up for me in a clinical space with some of those things that sometimes in therapy feel taboo to bring up.

SPEAKER_02 31:33

Or even just redirecting a patient.

SPEAKER_04 31:35

Totally.

SPEAKER_02 31:36

The urge is to I'm just gonna let this lie, or yeah,

What Opposite Action Really Means

SPEAKER_02 31:40

not that we don't want to bring it up, but maybe we have okay, I want to go in this direction or right. And so the urge is like, it might just be easier if I don't like talk about that in this moment. And it's like, okay, can we notice that? And what would it be like to kind of lean into that?

SPEAKER_04 31:54

Yeah, like even in my um in my own therapy, like sometimes if I'm like reprocessing certain things, like a memory, and I get a lot of shame around it, I will literally, as a therapist, as someone who knows the value of like being honest and open in the work, will have an urge of like, you don't need to like share that part with your therapist. Like that's embarrassing to tell her that happened to you or that you did that or whatever. And sometimes the opposite action that I can, I don't always access it, but sometimes the opposite action is saying, like, I'm feeling embarrassed about sharing something, which maybe is more of an other action. Either way, I'm not like launching it to just sharing it all the way opposite, but I'm saying something that's not just avoidance. Yes. I'm kind of naming like I don't want to share this, and maybe that's relevant for us here. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:45

Well, think about the alternative, which would be not even saying that. Right. Just hiding it, just hiding it. Yeah, and that would be fully giving into that urge, totally, right?

SPEAKER_04 32:55

Which I've done, but I think I'm getting better at that over the years.

SPEAKER_02 32:59

Parenting offers so many opportunities to engage in in this skill because I think for me, there's so many moments where I have an urge to overcorrect, or I have an urge to just do something for them because it would be easier if I just did it, versus really sitting with that and noticing, and this could be maybe a larger learning opportunity for them, or noticing that urge and saying, Man, you've corrected them a lot today. Like, what must that feel like for them to just be told maybe they're doing everything wrong? Right. So I think there's so many opportunities where I try to call on this and take that at least that moment to think about do I really want to give into that?

SPEAKER_04 33:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:43

Right.

SPEAKER_04 33:44

And for you, would that be giving into like a control move kind of or correcting them?

SPEAKER_02 33:49

It's like maybe trying to avoid having a deeper conversation with them or something, right? Or if it's doing something for them, it's avoiding, oh, this is gonna be frustrating because I know they're gonna make mistakes with it. And so I'm gonna have to sit with that and it's gonna take longer, and that's gonna right. And so I'm trying to avoid all of that.

SPEAKER_04 34:06

I do this a lot, actually. And I even wonder if if opposite action would be the skill I would choose, or maybe I would choose something else. But sometimes I think I'll like rehearse and rehearse and rehearse conversations to try to control them in my head.

SPEAKER_01 34:21

Oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_04 34:22

And there's like a lot of suffering there, I notice. Like, or it's like I'll come out of it and I'll feel really like exhausted and kind of still nervous.

SPEAKER_02 34:31

You've rehearsed before having it, or you're rehearsing okay before. Like because the urge is you need to be prepared. You have fear that you're doing it.

SPEAKER_04 34:40

I think the urge is actually more like I need to control it. Oh there's a part of me that thinks if I keep doing this, like I'll or I'll guess all the scenarios and I'll prep for all of those so then I'll be in complete control.

SPEAKER_02 34:51

Complete control.

SPEAKER_04 34:52

And I have a very solid voice telling me like there is nothing that will give you control of this. And then I'll slip right back into the like just start. I it happens a lot if I'm like washing my face at the end of the night or the beginning of the day or whatever, and I'm alone. Yeah. And I think the opposite action there can be, could be again. I don't know if I would choose that skill here. Maybe I probably would choose a mindfulness skill more and really notice I'm doing that, observe that from a diffused place.

SPEAKER_02 35:25

But well, that's the gateway into it anyway. Yeah, because you have to identify the emotion and the urge. So you have to be in that mindfulness place. Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_04 35:34

And you know, maybe an opposite action could be instead of like being so in my head, rehearsing, rehearsing, imagining, imagining, imagining, get tactile, you know, like feel the face wash on my skin, feel the temperature of the water under my fingers, listen to the sounds, you know, that are of the open window or whatever, um, kind of get out of my head a little bit can help kind of shift me in an opposite direction. So yeah, it's like I don't literally have to like walk in a different room. It's like I can kind of opposite the focus, even. You know, there's like a bit of an action in that.

SPEAKER_02 36:15

Typically committing to your values is an opposite action move a lot of times. Yeah, it can feel difficult. There's a lot of hurdles, pain that comes up from that. I I remember one of the practitioners in the fellowship I was in was saying 95% of the time the thing you don't want to do is a value-aligned move. And just kind of off the cuff. And I always remember that. It's like, yeah, a lot of times throughout the day, when I have a stronger to not do something, it's actually a clue into that's an important thing for you to do. Yeah, totally. Not all the time, but yeah.

SPEAKER_04 36:48

Well, that's kind of the the interesting thing about like the wise mind in that like center of values. What is deeply meaningful to you is often like hard. I like think about that a lot, like in kind of a like existential sort of way. Like, I'm not an atheist, like I believe in a higher power of some kind. I will think of like what is the meaning or design of this? That like what is important is maybe almost in some way supposed to be hard. Hard because I do in my real life find like sometimes the harder the thing when I really stay close to my values and embody them, act in line with them in a real felt way. It doesn't just feel like good. Good like doesn't even feel like it's a vital, it's vitality, it's vitality, it's a vital experience, and it feels almost like transformational, like oh, I just shifted something in a big way. And I do think it takes action and experiencing yourself and your world differently to really transform into like that vital living. Yeah, the word good is like wrong for this. It's like it feels so whole, full and grounded and calm, full and clear, full and clear. This is like a haiku, and it's like annoying to tell someone facing something difficult, some like that. Of course, but it is true. What's true is true. You know, there really is a lot of richness and transformation on the other side of that.

SPEAKER_02 38:24

And it's just a curiosity for me of like, wow, we're really meant to do these difficult things for growth, which I think is very counterintuitive to a lot of people's perceptions and what they've been told or taught. And yeah, life should be happy

Hard Conversations And Therapy Urges

SPEAKER_02 38:40

and yeah, just good, and just good.

SPEAKER_04 38:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:44

And a lot of the most vital experiences are experiences where we're not in a place of happiness. Yeah, you know, totally there are so many that were in a place of happiness, but that's why I I love the word vitality because it's not saying it's happy, right? Yeah, it's it's meaningful, it's rich, it's full, and you could have that in a very difficult emotional state.

SPEAKER_04 39:09

Yeah. I mean, maybe I'm like going too far here, but I I almost think it's like an experience of God. Like I I think of that almost like God as like a verb a lot of times, and like moments like that feel like I can feel my like the infinite nature within me, kind of when I do something that's like a spiritual experience. Yes, it is. It's like transcendent, I think is the word. Yeah, it's like good is so far behind that, right? You know, or pleasant or easy or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 39:40

Well, it's hard to put words to some of these experiences. Yeah, of language it has you were talking about in the last episode.

SPEAKER_04 39:47

Yeah, so it's like when what is important to you is kind of the opposite of what you want to do, that's right where the skill comes in.

SPEAKER_02 39:55

Yeah, opposite action is something people do all the time.

unknown 39:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:59

And they're just not aware of it. You know, just honestly think about anything you didn't want to do and you did it, right? And you felt more regulated after having done it. Yeah, that's probably opposite action. So people go throughout their whole lives not knowing there's a skill named for that. And when we build our awareness to it, we can use it more intentionally. I think that's an empowering thing to let the people we work with know is this isn't something you have to start from like scratch, and you're probably in a lot of ways doing it. And that's why I think pointing out the therapy is a parallel process in opposite action, is important. Yeah, you're probably doing it right now in this room. You probably had a lot of feelings of avoiding coming or canceling today, or yeah, you've had moments where you didn't want to bring something up, or you felt ashamed and you want to keep it hidden, yeah. You didn't, right? And it was and so I think having also those data points to point out to people can be useful. That we're not starting from zero.

SPEAKER_04 40:57

People listening to this can do this where like think about times, catalog times where you did the opposite of what felt comfortable when it was meaningful. There's like the micro versions of this too, where, and we'll talk about this. Like, you're kind of like stuck on the couch. And like, really, what you can do an opposite action is like just move your physical body to the edge of the couch and then put some weight on your feet and then press into your feet and press your legs straight. Those are a bunch of strung together opposite actions. And you know, you may say to yourself, like, I'm not gonna feel better, it's not gonna do anything. Like, you could say all of that, and that may even be true, right? But I would challenge you to try it and find out if that's true. Really notice when I do this, does anything change?

SPEAKER_02 41:47

So many times we hear that. Well, I don't I didn't feel better, and it's okay, that's fair. Did you feel more dysregulated? Yeah, or did you feel more regulated?

SPEAKER_04 42:00

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 42:00

Or did it feel more manageable in that moment having done it? Then we're getting at different ways of looking at skills because I think better is such a yeah, like it that misses the mark in so many different ways. Where it's like, okay, you were procrastinating, you finally did the thing.

SPEAKER_04 42:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:20

Did you feel more regulated after you started doing the thing? And a lot of times people in that situation, and myself included, do because you're you keep putting it off and you're giving into that urge, and you just think more about, oh, I keep putting this off and I have to do it. And I wait a second, did you guys get your license thing on your license plate?

SPEAKER_04 42:39

I did.

SPEAKER_02 42:39

Yeah, so did I. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 42:41

Oh, you got yours.

SPEAKER_02 42:43

Did you go to the DMV? I went to the DMV. Talk about opposite action. Well, tell everyone about your experience. I'm sorry. I just that came to me like that. When I was trying to think, I'm in my mind thinking about opposite action moves, and then all of a sudden I'm like, wait, the DMV.

SPEAKER_00 42:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:57

Couldn't have been easier. It was easy when I went. I didn't want to say it was easy until I heard what your experience was. They were so friendly. It was great. I interacted with two people. Me too. So friendly. It was easy. And did you

Values And Vitality Over Comfort

SPEAKER_02 43:10

go? Where did you go? Which DMV did you go to?

SPEAKER_03 43:12

Elston. Was that right? Yeah, Elston. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:15

That was the same one I went to. And it was like a little side adjacent building where the line, there was like hardly any people there. It was great.

SPEAKER_03 43:20

They had those neon blue signs. Yeah. That said um cashier. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 43:26

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 43:27

I thought like I was in the 70s. It was great.

SPEAKER_04 43:29

Oh, yeah, it definitely feels like the 70s in there. Well, good for you.

SPEAKER_02 43:32

Good for you.

SPEAKER_04 43:33

I got my driver's license there. Isn't that fun?

SPEAKER_02 43:36

Wait, like when you were a teenager? When I was 16. Oh, well.

SPEAKER_04 43:39

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I didn't grow up that far away from there. That's crazy. Yeah, yeah. I remember that.

SPEAKER_02 43:44

That's amazing. Okay. Anyway, that's an opposite action move.

SPEAKER_04 43:47

That's an opposite action move, right? It's like I value being compliant with the legal regulations of driving. I value driving. That's important to me and like getting from A to B.

SPEAKER_02 43:58

And if we go back to Two weeks ago, even when I was telling that story to you guys about the ticket, as I was telling the story, I was becoming more heightened because I wasn't really thinking about what are the actual moves I could take in the different direction. But once I started planning, like, okay, I need to actually go to a DMV, right? Find the DMV, write all of those different types of moves, it didn't feel as distressing. Still distressing, right? But it was like, okay, let's like I'm taking moves in the opposite direction, other than giving into the urge of just this isn't gonna solve, like who's gonna do this for me, right? Like all those urges to just kind of like catastrophize. So yeah, well, good for you guys for getting your sticker.

SPEAKER_04 44:38

Yeah, you too. Amazing. I mean, I didn't do anything really. My mom attempted to do it and then she wasn't able to, and then Josh did it. That was helpful, and I'm also going to the fertility clinic every other day.

SPEAKER_02 44:55

Yeah, yeah. Time for men to step up, time for some men to do some things. Talk about opposite action, men doing things.

SPEAKER_04 45:02

Yeah, it's an opposite action of whatever slowly. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:06

Get off the couch.

SPEAKER_04 45:07

Well, this has turned into like a myriad with children. Yeah, it's totally a group. But yeah, so that's opposite action. You know, I would say, like, if you're skeptical, well, I'll say this too. I had this thought. Now I'm remembering that I just had this thought. There's really no such thing as like short-term therapy. You're not gonna have one session with a therapist where they tell you about opposite action, you do it once and you're cured, or you hear about it and you're cured, or what whatever cured even means. But this is a long-term practice. So you're learning this practice that you can put in your real life between the times you're in the therapy office where you can shift your life experience. And if you do opposite action many times over a month, many, many times over a year, I really think you're gonna notice things that are important. You know, you're not gonna be perfect at it, you don't need to be perfect at it, but like really honing the skill of like not having to give in to an urge is huge for one's sense of well-being and sense of that center of power, which is your wise mind.

SPEAKER_02 46:13

No, I I think that it is an extremely empowering skill when you have those strong urges and your ability to step outside of those, yeah, fully experience them, yeah, and still be quote unquote in control of your behavior and choosing the way you want to respond versus react, right? That is a really empowering.

SPEAKER_04 46:33

It's amazing. So, you know, like, no, you're not gonna have one minute with a therapist where they talk about this and you're like, okay, that's all I needed. It is a practice for a long, long time of shifting your, like you said, response to emotional pain, urges, triggers, you know, you're giving yourself this new experience. Like, I don't have to be overtaken by this and controlled by this feeling or this urge.

SPEAKER_02 46:57

And you can start low stakes, right? You can start with just noticing I don't want to do the dishes. Yeah. And could I push myself to get up in this moment, right? This is a choice point. Could I get up and try to do them? And sometimes with the people we we work with, and it's just therapy in general, we want to swing for the fences and go really big on stuff, and that's great. Like we have like large goals

Tiny Opposite Moves That Work

SPEAKER_02 47:20

that we want to attack, and sometimes even just breaking that down. And how could we practice this day to day with things that don't have such heightened emotions can be useful to gain some mastery and skill over it. So totally I like it. I'm a fan.

SPEAKER_04 47:37

I'm a huge fan. Same. I'm a huge fan too. I'm a huge fan of print us all t-shirts.

SPEAKER_02 47:42

O e-ma.

SPEAKER_04 47:43

Opposite to emotion action. O E A.

SPEAKER_02 47:46

Remember the young adults used to call it op to emo?

unknown 47:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 47:50

Back when people said emo. Emo.

SPEAKER_02 47:53

Back to when people said emo.

SPEAKER_04 47:54

People don't really say it anymore.

SPEAKER_02 47:55

Op to emo. People never said op. But do people somebody the other day I heard them say Gucci? Do people still say that?

SPEAKER_04 48:02

Oh my god, I remember when that was all over the place.

SPEAKER_02 48:05

People don't say that anymore. People don't say that. And I don't know anything. But I was even when the person said that, I was like, I don't think people say that.

SPEAKER_04 48:11

I'm Gucci. Yeah, people don't say that. What do people say?

SPEAKER_03 48:16

I'm golden.

SPEAKER_04 48:17

I'm golden. I'm golden. Definitely say that.

SPEAKER_02 48:20

Golden. What's golden? Jill Scott. Great song.

SPEAKER_04 48:24

Ooh, I was thinking more of K-pop demon hunters. What do people say instead of I'm Gucci?

SPEAKER_02 48:31

I'm I uh wait, I just had it. Six seven. Well, but that kind of went already.

SPEAKER_04 48:40

Six seven.

SPEAKER_02 48:41

Yeah, that's like gone. Like people.

SPEAKER_04 48:43

Does that even it doesn't even mean anything?

SPEAKER_02 48:44

Well, it never meant anything. Right, right. And kids don't say it. And kids who don't say it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:51

Uh let's transition into our howways is it, which I already forgot. What is our howways it?

SPEAKER_04 48:56

Our howways is it today is well, this was once an internet phenomenon as well. But how wise is it to condom Marie your life. That's right. Or Marie Condo Your Life. I think her company is called like Condo Marie, which is a reversal of her name. Okay. I think so. Condomerie is something.

SPEAKER_02 49:14

This is now pretty dated because her book was that came out was The Art of Tidying.

SPEAKER_04 49:20

Yeah, the life-changing magic of tidying up. Oh, sorry, I butchered that, but and then the show, oh, what was the show called?

SPEAKER_02 49:27

Don't even remember. This was pre-COVID that she was starting to become popular.

SPEAKER_04 49:31

Totally. Yes. Which there was pre-COVID.

SPEAKER_02 49:33

Yeah, there was the minimalist movement. Yeah. Which I ascribe to, and I've talked about it in certain ways, not fully, but her her whole thing is the essence of an object, right?

SPEAKER_04 49:47

Yes. Like what it gives you.

SPEAKER_02 49:50

But does it evoke something in you?

SPEAKER_04 49:52

Yeah, yes. That is it.

SPEAKER_02 49:54

So the so the how wise is it would be how wise is it if something in your life you hold it, you kind of like bring it in front of you, you I'm butchering.

SPEAKER_04 50:05

I think you put all of your belongings in the center of the room.

SPEAKER_02 50:09

Well, who could do that? I have way more belongings than that.

SPEAKER_04 50:12

Yeah, I think you go room by room. Room to room. You go room by room, which is actually like for people who are like in the kind of decluttering space, like on the internet, the room by room is a big thing, which I guess is intuitively make makes sense. But you put everything in the center of the room and then you take each item and you ask yourself, does this evoke joy?

SPEAKER_02 50:36

Does it evoke joy?

SPEAKER_04 50:37

She does focus on joy, but I I like your idea of does it evoke something? Anything. Anything like I mean, maybe it evokes anger, but even then it's like, could it still be valuable?

SPEAKER_02 50:47

Well, what's wrong with neutrality? Why does it have to be joy?

SPEAKER_04 50:51

Well, I think her idea is like well, wait, sorry, let me pause you.

SPEAKER_02 50:55

Let's finish the thought. If it doesn't evoke joy, you get rid of it.

SPEAKER_04 50:58

You get rid of it.

SPEAKER_02 50:58

Okay, so that's the complete thing. You gather the things, yeah, one by one.

SPEAKER_04 51:03

Everything in your home then evokes joy, and then everything is joyful, and then you are perfect.

SPEAKER_02 51:08

And so the idea here is, which I love this idea. Instead of accumulating things, we're stripping things away. And we're really getting down to the nitty-gritty of the things that bring us joy in our life. Which I love that idea. Yeah, I do too.

SPEAKER_04 51:23

I do too.

SPEAKER_02 51:24

I think it's a wise thing to think about.

SPEAKER_04 51:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:27

I think where it loses me is the joy.

The DMV As Opposite Action

SPEAKER_04 51:30

Yeah, yeah. What is your reaction to that?

SPEAKER_02 51:34

My reaction is I think there are things that don't necessarily bring me joy that have a lot of utility. Yeah. That I want.

SPEAKER_04 51:41

100%.

SPEAKER_02 51:42

And so maybe I'm getting too hooked on the language.

SPEAKER_04 51:46

Well, no, I mean, I think it's worth considering. Now, we should all acknowledge none of us have read the book.

SPEAKER_02 51:52

That we have have not read.

SPEAKER_04 51:53

This is my impression of my impression. Read it and did it to her apartment before the Netflix show was even on.

SPEAKER_02 52:00

Give me the impressions.

SPEAKER_04 52:01

It's well, I think I think the idea is it is about joy, but I also think she doesn't expect you like, oh, my toilet paper holder doesn't bring joy. Well, it's going in the garbage. I think it's sort of like the ability to have the hygiene that's like important to you. Function maybe is has a role in it.

SPEAKER_02 52:20

It has to. It has to. Because there's so many things that are functional that don't bring it up. Yeah, it's like you wouldn't have to don't really bring you any emotional experience. Right. So yeah.

SPEAKER_04 52:30

Yeah, it's funny that it's joy and it's not just like me.

SPEAKER_02 52:33

Never read the book. Yeah. I've never read this book, and I'm gonna critique it just like the Odyssey. Haven't seen it. So the minimalist guys that have their own podcast, I forget their names because I haven't listened to it in such a long time, but they had some different exercises. Do you remember the name of the pod? To think about I thought it was just the minimalists.

SPEAKER_04 52:55

The minimalists.

SPEAKER_02 52:56

One of their exercises was the idea of gathering the things. And if you haven't used it or engaged with the item in 90 days, is that then the moment to think about is this something you truly need?

SPEAKER_01 53:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:10

Which that spoke to me a little bit more. Yeah, I like that. Versus the the joy. So I would almost want to do the 90-day thing first. And then if something's really calling me to it, because it's like I have a photo album that I haven't looked at in 90 days, but it brings me such joy. Of course I'm going to keep that. Right. Right. So it's almost like I would want to start with the 90 days and then maybe lump on the joy.

SPEAKER_04 53:33

I think I'm remembering that I think Marie Kondo has a lot of years. I think it's a year. She has you. Oh, hers is a year. She has you hang your clothes all in one direction, and then when you use it, you flip the hanger. So any hangers that have never been flipped, you get rid of that stuff.

SPEAKER_02 53:48

All right. The Minimalists, Hemi nominated Netflix stars and New York Times best-selling authors. I'm sorry, Ryan Nicodemus.

SPEAKER_04 53:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 53:58

Alongside co-host TK Coleman, they help millions of people live meaningful lives with less. And I think I also like them because they talk so much about meaning. I think it's, I don't know. I think it's wise to not constantly, but consistently be taking inventory of your material items. Yeah. And whether you need them or not. I think for me that's a meaningful practice.

SPEAKER_04 54:22

Yeah, I think so too.

SPEAKER_02 54:24

And I'm always in a phase of do I really need this? Am I consuming too much?

SPEAKER_04 54:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:31

Could I live with less things that have more meaning versus more things that are just things? Yeah. Yeah. So I think it is wise to engage in those types of questions.

SPEAKER_04 54:41

Yeah, I think so too. I think it's wise as well.

SPEAKER_02 54:45

It's hard though.

SPEAKER_04 54:46

Well, what's hard about it for you?

SPEAKER_02 54:48

There's always gonna be another shoe that I want. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 54:50

Oh god, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:52

There's always gonna be another like catalog from Marine Lair that's gonna come out that I'm gonna see something.

SPEAKER_04 54:58

Another silhouette that you're seeing, you know, out in the world.

SPEAKER_02 55:02

Just another person wearing something, another cool design, another technology that comes out.

SPEAKER_00 55:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:09

Whether that's the just kind of consumerism that we're brought up in, or yeah, just the human thing wanting things you don't have. I don't know. That's what would make it hard.

SPEAKER_04 55:19

I know. It's like obviously the capitalist machine is like a part of this, but then you wonder like what part of it is like essentially human of just like wanting to accumulate things and express yourself and sure. Right. Yeah, I think that is the hardest part for me. Well, because here's the thing though, like is I'm this is where like I unconsciously

Marie Kondo And Meaningful Minimalism

SPEAKER_04 55:40

like cheat all of these systems all the time. It's like I'll get rid of stuff and do that, and then I won't abide by any rules of like, well, you can't really collect anything else. I almost take it as like, oh, I got all this space to get some new new stuff, a new interest, and it's a new hobby. Yeah, there's a version of it I could do that could be more like rigorous that might be really interesting. Me too.

SPEAKER_02 56:02

Yeah, yeah, I definitely cultivate it into and make it into my own when it works for me. Which how useful is that? I don't really know. I know. I do think there would be more meaningful experiences if I really was rigorous, like you are saying, to it.

SPEAKER_04 56:18

Yeah, like you limit what you add back in, and okay, you don't buy anything new for 90 days.

SPEAKER_02 56:24

You don't buy anything new, you don't add anything new, you don't add anything, and then you leave that one. But then it's like, well, what qualifies as buying things? I mean, you're gonna buy paper towels, you're gonna buy all that stuff.

SPEAKER_04 56:36

Well, maybe for me, it's like close.

SPEAKER_02 56:38

Close. Yeah, you gotta start somewhere.

SPEAKER_04 56:40

Sure, yeah. But also then it's like if I don't know buying I know myself, I would then start looking at home goods, you know. Then I would start looking at beauty products, and it's like that's when the brick comes out. Yeah, there's gotta be for me a line, and the line cannot be something I want it to be. It has to be something I need it to be, right? And we're back to opposite action, kind of.

SPEAKER_02 57:01

I think her concept is I like it. Yeah, I like the idea, the overarching idea.

SPEAKER_04 57:07

Oh, you like it. I thought you were saying that's her philosophy. I like it. If I like it, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_02 57:11

That is kind of her philosophy, her book that I haven't uh read yet.

SPEAKER_04 57:15

That I actually wrote.

SPEAKER_02 57:17

I haven't read, but I wrote it. Surprise. Surprise, and her Netflix special special, which I've directed but haven't viewed. Um I think it might be wise for people to give some form of decluttering, yeah, minimalism, whatever that looks like, condoing, whatever, yeah, giving it some thought. I think it would be wise for people to think about it. Totally.

SPEAKER_04 57:39

I agree, I definitely agree. And I don't know if I would myself go the Marie Kondo route. I don't think I would either. But there are some good like sub stacks and stuff that one.

SPEAKER_02 57:48

I think the essence of it though can raise a lot of questions. Yes, like meaningful. So I think that is wise to even just think about it as a thought exercise. Like, what would that look like for me? Right. And also there's ways to make it even more meaningful for you. Like, are you donating the things that you're stripping away? Yeah, could you find meaningful ways of in the decluttering or in the not purchasing, what am I using some of that money for? Other ways to engage with different parts of your life.

SPEAKER_04 58:17

So use it for therapy to unpack why you need so much shit.

SPEAKER_02 58:22

Wow, yeah. Maybe unpack. No pun intended.

SPEAKER_04 58:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:27

We're around packages.

SPEAKER_04 58:29

Yeah, yep. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 58:31

What an episode.

SPEAKER_04 58:32

Yeah. Well, wait, it's something I have to mention in the Marie Kondo of it all.

SPEAKER_02 58:36

Oh, mention.

SPEAKER_04 58:37

I right when I had first heard about it.

SPEAKER_02 58:39

You're not gonna say you read the book, are you? No, after we all okay.

SPEAKER_04 58:41

I didn't read the book, but something right after I heard about it and after my friend had done it in her New York apartment, I went to a comedy show with the comedian Todd Barry. Todd Berry. Do you do you know Todd Berry?

SPEAKER_02 58:54

Sounds familiar.

SPEAKER_04 58:55

You'd probably know him if you saw him. He's really funny. But he had this, he was like, I so I read this book called The Life Changing Magic of Tidying Up. And he's like, the concept is like you put everything in the center of the room and you you only keep what gives you joy. He's like, so I'm burning my apartment to the ground with me in it. That's great. That's good stuff. That is real good. So yeah, that that was one of my first exposures to it. But yeah, but yeah, check out the Netflix show. For sure. Read the book. Hey. Read the book, tell us about the book. Because we're certainly not gonna read it.

SPEAKER_02 59:29

Somebody read that book and give us some notes.

SPEAKER_04 59:32

We're busy trying to get through flesh.

SPEAKER_02 59:34

Oh, Kelly, you're never gonna read it. I know. I'm gonna do it. It's better feed in the dust.

SPEAKER_04 59:38

Yeah, it's better if someone will summarize a video one day.

SPEAKER_02 59:41

Strip that book away. Yeah. That's decluttering. All right. Well, you can find me at buttsbutz. Jonathan at gmail.com.

SPEAKER_04 59:49

Yeah, you can find me at kkpsychotherapy.com. Um, if you want to work with me, you wanna come on the pod, you have ideas for the pod, anything, reach out to me there and Josh.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:00

You can find me at joshbayerfilms.com. Bayer is in the aspirin, and I'll service all of your editing needs.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:09

But I do have a shout out. Oh dear boy, here we go. Fits in the tantrums, new album. That is one half of my shout-out. Yes. Half two. Is Crybaby by Vince Staples.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:20

Yeah, Josh is loving Vince Staples right now.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:23

Okay. It's the latest hip-hop masterpiece. Yeah, it's pretty good. Probably my second favorite album of the year after underscores. He switches his flow up basically every verse, and it's people are kind of calling it rap rock or perhaps uh punk, but then Vin Staples kind of responded to that saying, uh, you know, indie rock, punk, all those genres are just crackers trying to be James Brown. Oh wow.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:50

I love it.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:50

I to be honest, I feel like it doesn't remind me of much. Like it reminded you of Tim Tame Paul. Tim Tamepala. Oh a little like Rage Against the Machine. Wow.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:00

Yeah, you'll like it.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:01

A little bit like like the roots are like almost like little sit like it has live instrumentation. Yeah. Fuzzy guitar riffs, and it's like a political firebomb, and it's uh Yeah, he's on a I I like him.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:14

He's on a really good song by uh or an album by Earl Sweatshirt. So I definitely like Vince Date. Oh, chum? I'm gonna is that what the song is? Hive? Yeah, mighty might be Hive. Um, but anyway, I'm gonna have to listen to that. I'm gonna put that on my Spotify right now.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:29

A must hear for you hip hop heads out there.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:32

I feel bad I don't have. Oh, oh, wait. Well, I have almost like a future shout-out. Which maybe we want to listen or we want to watch it for the pod. There is a new TV show. Did you ever watch the show Flight of the Concords? Of course. I mean the best. Jermaine from that show is a new show on Hulu. Do you have Hulu? Mm-hmm. Called Alice and Steve. And it's about like age gap dating. Oh. And like, I think it and addresses within that context, it addresses like aging and romantic relationships amongst that struggle. I think, and I think it's funny.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:05

Germaine.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:06

I think maybe it could be an interesting pod topic for us. So maybe it's something we'll watch and review. When it comes out. Yeah, it's not out yet.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:16

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:16

But soon.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:17

And if you can get your hands on it, watch the David Bowie episode of Flight of the Concords.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:21

It's a classic. Wear the funky eye patch, Brick. Okay, well, thanks everyone. Thank you to Blank Itforwards.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:27

Yes, thank you to Blank Itforce. And we'll see you all.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:30

See you next time. We'll talk about our article that we mentioned. Article. So stay tuned.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:34

We're actually gonna read it.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:35

Yeah, we're gonna read this one. We're gonna read this one.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:37

We're gonna write it and direct it.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:39

Bye!

SPEAKER_02 1:02:39

Bye.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:40

The WiseMind Happy Hour podcast is for entertainment purposes only, not to be treated as medical advice. If you are struggling with your mental health,

Shoutouts And Closing Notes

SPEAKER_04 1:02:50

please seek medical attention or counseling.