Therapeutic Presence

Kelly Kilgallon (LCSW) and Jon Butz (LCPC) dive deep into “Therapeutic Presence: Therapists’ experience of presence in the psychotherapy encounter,” an article by Shari M. Gellar & Leslie S. Greenberg. What does it mean for a therapist to be TRULY PRESENT during a session? Should they “bracket” their personal lives and inner worlds during a session? Juggling one’s own subjective experience with the incredibly demanding clinical work of psychotherapy can be quite the tightrope to walk..so walk it with us.

- music by blanket forts -

Transcript

New Apartment And New Energy

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Welcome to the Wise Mind Happy Hour.

SPEAKER_02 0:07

I'm Kelly. I'm John. We're in a new environment.

SPEAKER_01 0:10

We're in a new environment. We're in our Josh is in my new apartment. We did it.

SPEAKER_02 0:18

So if we look different, it's because we're in a different universe. I will make sure to put the address at the bottom.

SPEAKER_01 0:25

Yeah, so everyone can come by and visit. It's kind of an open house situation.

SPEAKER_02 0:30

I gotta get my bearings here.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

Yeah. Yeah. What did you think when walking?

SPEAKER_02 0:34

I wonder if the recording's gonna feel different.

SPEAKER_01 0:36

I know, like, yeah. Does it feel different right now?

SPEAKER_02 0:41

I feel far away from Josh.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

Yeah, we definitely are further away from Josh and the camera.

SPEAKER_02 0:47

It's not bad. It's just we're farther away.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 0:50

It's not good. It's neither. It's it's not good, it's not bad. It just is.

SPEAKER_03 0:54

I feel neutral about this.

SPEAKER_02 0:56

I like it. I mean, the the vibe was very bright when I walked in. Yeah. A lot of light. There's a lot of light, a lot of space. Love the floors.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06

And I was just shocked at how unpacked you are.

SPEAKER_01 1:09

I know.

SPEAKER_02 1:10

Like I maybe it doesn't feel that way to you, but it looks really good.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

Huge shout out to Josh's mom for helping us with that. She came for the weekend and helped us pack up and then unpack when we got here. Yeah. And man, it was so helpful.

SPEAKER_02 1:28

And that can be like taking hostages, finding people to help you to move.

SPEAKER_01 1:31

And that was not at all obviously our experience. Which is great. With Lisa, who y'all know from the pod. Um that was great. Two episodes. Two episodes. Yeah. Really. And my mom and her partner helped us um a lot in the weeks before, which was so nice. And our movers were great. They were, I I I recommend this group if you have a move. Um, they're called Move Tastic. The like head guy was named Jose, and he um really like knew what he was doing and even helped us with something extra, and the guys were really nice.

SPEAKER_02 2:07

It feels very new, very fresh, very light, airy. These are the words that are coming to mind.

SPEAKER_01 2:14

This kind of move, getting this much more space, it feels like the psychological change is significant. What do you think, Josh?

SPEAKER_03 2:24

I feel I feel spacious.

SPEAKER_01 2:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:26

I feel like my mind got a bath.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

Yeah, same.

SPEAKER_03 2:30

And like my body grew wings.

SPEAKER_01 2:33

It really feels like a transition into a new chapter. Like not every move feels like that. I mean, I guess my last couple moves have, because like two moves ago, I literally moved in and met Josh like essentially that day. But I and I felt a real stirring like in my spirit. Like, this is going to be a huge time and year. And and then sure enough, I met Josh. And then the next move was moving in with you, which of course felt huge.

SPEAKER_03 3:07

That was a huge time.

SPEAKER_01 3:08

And now moving here feels, yeah.

Moving Help And Fresh Starts

SPEAKER_01 3:12

And it's a big change of neighborhood because like we're west and more south. The vibe is pretty different in Logan Square to um like the Andersonville Ravenswood area. They're both like kind of alt, not Ravenswood a little less so, but Andersonville is. But Logan definitely like what's nice is it seems like it's a real mix of ages. Like, not if you go to a bar necessarily, I think you're gonna see a lot of young people there, but in the everyday in the restaurants, you know, like I'm seeing people of all ages, kind of like you would in New York a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 3:50

Have you gone to Bob Inn?

SPEAKER_01 3:52

No, but I know about it.

SPEAKER_02 3:53

It's right down there on Fort.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

Yeah. Is it cool?

SPEAKER_02 3:57

How would I know? I I just passed it. I was I was wondering if maybe you all went there. I like that it's called Bob In.

SPEAKER_01 4:04

I thought you were saying that because you like never been there. I got invited to a date and then kind of like uninvited to the date at Bob In years and years ago.

SPEAKER_02 4:15

Looks like a real tavern. That's how I would describe it.

SPEAKER_01 4:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:19

Wouldn't even say it's a bar. Totally. Yeah, it's a tavern.

SPEAKER_01 4:22

Dive tavern kind of thing. Right.

SPEAKER_02 4:24

That maybe not everybody knows about. Like if you dropped it, people would say, Well, where is that?

SPEAKER_01 4:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:30

So if you're but you're in the know.

SPEAKER_01 4:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:33

Well, I mean, yeah, you got married in your last place.

SPEAKER_01 4:36

Got married in our last place. Sorry, I'm yawning as always.

SPEAKER_02 4:40

New things, opening up.

SPEAKER_01 4:41

Opening up, new things.

SPEAKER_02 4:43

Expansion.

SPEAKER_01 4:43

I really feel that and feel really excited.

SPEAKER_02 4:46

Did you always have this basket? This looks new.

SPEAKER_01 4:49

This basket we registered for, I think. And um we had it, but it was like, you know, on the top of those shelves in the old place. Like kind of we never really brought it down. Yeah. And now we can use it. It's huge. I don't know what we're gonna put in there.

SPEAKER_02 5:06

Nothing.

SPEAKER_01 5:07

Nothing.

SPEAKER_02 5:07

Nothing yet.

SPEAKER_01 5:08

Nothing yet. Yeah. Do you like just an empty basket on a table?

SPEAKER_02 5:11

I like this one.

SPEAKER_01 5:12

I like this one too.

SPEAKER_02 5:13

What do you put in there? Because it's so big.

SPEAKER_01 5:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:16

You're not gonna fill that thing with fruit. That's a lot of fruit.

SPEAKER_01 5:18

Okay. That I was gonna say fruit. I'm glad that you correct it.

SPEAKER_02 5:21

You might have to though put some pineapples in there to take up some space and some watermelons.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

Yeah. Almost something like that. Many pineapples. I mean, it kind of is like you could line it with like nice like towels and put bread in there.

SPEAKER_02 5:34

Yeah, for sure. Like for like a I love a big basket. I think my struggle would be what to put in it. What to put in it, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:41

Fruit is definitely the catch me on Chat GPT being like, what to put in a large basket?

SPEAKER_02 5:46

Well, of course, everybody thinks fruit, but I think if it's too big, how many apples are you can that thing hold? A lot.

SPEAKER_01 5:54

I know.

SPEAKER_02 5:55

Oranges.

SPEAKER_01 5:56

Yeah, you have to have like 50 apples for a few. Seriously.

SPEAKER_02 5:59

Yeah. And then you take a few and you're like, oh, we gotta fill it up with 10 more now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:03

I'm gonna make this a challenge. Like, what is kind of the best way to handle this size basket?

SPEAKER_02 6:10

For some reason I just had this image of balls of yarn.

SPEAKER_01 6:13

Yeah. I mean, a certain kind of person that would be perfect.

SPEAKER_02 6:17

That would be perfect for a certain kind of person, decorative, but also maybe they're a knitter. Functional, yeah. Functional.

SPEAKER_01 6:23

You know, uh so many people knit, and I'm like, man, I'm surprised I never got into that.

SPEAKER_02 6:28

Crochet knitting is huge. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

I guess I'm not that surprised.

SPEAKER_02 6:31

You can even do the kind I think I've mentioned this, I where you don't even need the needles. Yeah. You can do the hand kind where you make like a scarf out of it. Wow. And you're just taking the thread and or the yarn and however you're manipulating your hands, you don't need the Wow, the needles.

Neighborhood Vibes And Local Spots

SPEAKER_02 6:50

Right?

SPEAKER_01 6:51

That's cool.

SPEAKER_02 6:52

Very soothing. People love it.

SPEAKER_01 6:53

Yeah, but what's new with you? What's going on?

SPEAKER_02 6:56

Well, home stuff. We're we're redoing part of our kitchen, so we got all new cabinets. So I think I mentioned last time I had so much time, Sarah was gone with the the boys.

SPEAKER_00 7:06

Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 7:07

So we're almost completed with that.

SPEAKER_00 7:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:11

Rolling with the punches. Uh yeah. Sarah and the boys got back from Philly. So happy to see them. They started camp this week, um, which was nice. We've been getting back together with friends. I just came from Taco Tuesday at yes, I know, at uh some friends' house. So shout out to Andy, Maris, Reese, and Carson.

SPEAKER_01 7:34

I'd be so curious. It's like we're you and I are so different in this way. Like I would be annoying, peppering them with questions about like, so do you do this every Tuesday? Oh. And do you invite different families? Yeah, I didn't ask them that. I always like, and then I think I uh over time people are like, Can you just shut up? And I'm like, Yes. But you know, it's like I'd be curious. You want to know the details. And did the family embrace taco Tuesdays a little bit?

SPEAKER_02 7:59

We had we had some uh like mariachi music playing, it was great. Nice, yes.

SPEAKER_01 8:03

What do you put on your tacos?

SPEAKER_02 8:05

Tonight I did um cheese, guacamole, lettuce. They had nice little cut-up tomatoes. How small? Diced? Not quite diced, they were almost like halved, but they were really small tomatoes.

SPEAKER_01 8:18

Did they have a lot of flavor? Maybe they're flavor bombs.

SPEAKER_02 8:20

Yeah, a little burst.

SPEAKER_01 8:21

And beef?

SPEAKER_02 8:22

Beef.

SPEAKER_01 8:23

Did they have more than beef or just beef? Love it.

SPEAKER_02 8:25

So we've been into the World Cup that started. Have you been watching that?

SPEAKER_01 8:29

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 8:30

Absolutely not. I don't even know why I asked. I know Kelly's not watching the World Cup.

SPEAKER_01 8:34

I mean, we you know, we were like Who is your dark horse in the World Cup? I wouldn't even have any idea who's in it. Or like who's still in it?

SPEAKER_02 8:42

Fair enough.

SPEAKER_01 8:43

Who is still in it?

SPEAKER_02 8:44

It just started. So every every team, it's still group stage, every team, every team is still playing.

SPEAKER_01 8:49

And it's in New York.

SPEAKER_02 8:50

It's all over. North America.

SPEAKER_01 8:52

It's all over.

SPEAKER_02 8:52

Okay. It's in Canada, it's in the United States, and it's in Mexico.

SPEAKER_01 8:56

Oh, nice. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 8:57

So North America is the host nation.

SPEAKER_01 9:00

Got it.

SPEAKER_02 9:01

But so yeah, there's games in New York, Seattle, Houston, Vancouver, Mexico City.

SPEAKER_01 9:07

Cool.

SPEAKER_02 9:07

Guadalajara.

SPEAKER_01 9:09

Very cool.

SPEAKER_02 9:10

You don't have to lie. I know it's not very cool to use.

SPEAKER_01 9:12

I mean, it's cool if you're into that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02 9:15

How wise is it to play Kate John?

SPEAKER_01 9:18

How wise is it to talk about sports to people who don't like it?

SPEAKER_02 9:22

I mean.

SPEAKER_01 9:22

This question's meant for my dad.

SPEAKER_02 9:24

How wise is it to talk to people about manifesting when they're not that interesting?

SPEAKER_01 9:28

I mean, fair enough. Or human design. Fair enough. Yeah. That's my sports.

SPEAKER_02 9:33

That is your sports.

SPEAKER_01 9:34

Or my sports, like some people say, like some women and maybe some other like femme leaning identities, like their sports is like reality TV.

SPEAKER_02 9:44

One of Wes is good friends. His dad comes up to me and will start a sentence as if we are mid-conversation about some sporting event.

SPEAKER_01 9:53

That is one of the most fascinating

The Giant Basket Problem

SPEAKER_01 9:55

things.

SPEAKER_02 9:55

When someone comes up to me and is like, uh man, that peak Crow Armstrong, huh? As if I saw whatever that Cubs player, he's a Cubs player, whatever he did the night before.

SPEAKER_01 10:06

As if like I'm there's gotta be a German word for that. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 10:12

I think it's so funny because I'm like, what did he do? I I don't know. Every time I'm like, what happened? Like just there's a did not even track.

SPEAKER_01 10:20

Alex Edelman, he has a joke where he's like, I found the perfect response for when people come up to you. And I think he was specifically talking about sports.

SPEAKER_02 10:29

Yeah, mid-conversation sports.

SPEAKER_01 10:30

They're like mid-conversation, they're like talking about sports, and they're like, Did you see the game? You know, whatever. He's like, the perfect response always is, can you believe it?

SPEAKER_02 10:39

It's like if I came in here and write away to Josh, you know, track four, could you believe it on this? As if Josh were just listening to that album. Right. And it's like, what album are we? What artist? Yeah. But yeah, other than that, no, there were big storms in Chicago. Tree fell on my car. So getting that taken care of.

SPEAKER_01 10:59

Terrible, you're just telling us, and that is devastating.

SPEAKER_02 11:02

Yeah, I will say filing an insurance claim with that was pretty easy, though. They give you a link and then you just take photos of your car.

SPEAKER_01 11:09

Good.

SPEAKER_02 11:10

We're back on the car stuff.

SPEAKER_01 11:11

We talked about the I'm aware that maybe maybe this is boring.

SPEAKER_02 11:14

People don't want to hear this. Edit this all out. Should we do a little DMV?

SPEAKER_01 11:18

Yeah, talk about the DMV.

SPEAKER_02 11:19

Oh, I thought you said DMV, Dave Matthews band. I I didn't know you were a fan.

SPEAKER_01 11:23

Josh is kind of a fan. I am. I am.

SPEAKER_02 11:25

I was like, oh.

SPEAKER_01 11:27

Is he still like around?

SPEAKER_02 11:28

Doesn't he tour every summer? Isn't that like a thing?

SPEAKER_01 11:30

But he's not putting out new music.

SPEAKER_03 11:32

Oh, yeah. Probably.

SPEAKER_01 11:33

Is he?

SPEAKER_03 11:33

I feel like he came out with an album two or three years ago.

SPEAKER_01 11:36

Really?

SPEAKER_03 11:37

Called DMV.

SPEAKER_02 11:39

I'll sometimes still see a fire dancer stick around somebody's car. What's Fire Dancer? It's like his logo. I thought that's what it was called.

SPEAKER_03 11:47

Wasn't that crazy? That fire dancer.

SPEAKER_02 11:48

Did you see that fire dancer?

SPEAKER_03 11:50

Can you believe it?

SPEAKER_01 11:51

Well, what do we think?

SPEAKER_02 11:52

Should we move into oh people are have stopped listening?

SPEAKER_01 11:56

Well, we can't. Or they're they're not. They're ready.

SPEAKER_02 12:00

They're ready for our topic.

SPEAKER_01 12:01

They're ready for our topic.

What Therapeutic Presence Means

SPEAKER_01 12:02

We read an article. We read an article.

SPEAKER_02 12:03

An article that Kelly found.

SPEAKER_01 12:05

I think I was reading some text and like looking at the citations because I'm like, sometimes if I don't have time to read like a book I'm really interested in, I'll be like, what are the kinds of things they cite? Maybe there's a shorter article that'll give me some flavor of this. And this article, it's called Therapeutic Presence, Therapist's Experience of Presence in a Psychotherapy Encounter by Geller and Greenberg out of Toronto, Canada. And yeah, it's an article about trying to operationalize what presence actually means.

SPEAKER_02 12:36

Yeah, which is interesting.

SPEAKER_01 12:37

By nature, it can be kind of um an ineffable thing. You know it when you feel it, sort of thing. And it can be hard to guide someone to it. And what were your first impressions of even that topic?

SPEAKER_02 12:51

The thing that I took from it the most was I really liked the breakdown, the figure that they had the model of therapist presence. Yes. Which they broke it down into three different phases, which I really liked. And it already started with how you prepare to go in.

SPEAKER_01 13:06

Yes. I like that they had a section on that.

SPEAKER_02 13:09

So did I, because I think this could easily have been an article that was solely on the space with someone else. I don't think the preparation for therapy is something I was supervised on a lot of. Yeah. I was trying to think back like how many conversations did I have with people, clinicians, about how are you preparing, other than just material if you're teaching it from more of like a psycho ed.

SPEAKER_00 13:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:39

But just how are you preparing yourself to be in that space with somebody? I don't know, other than maybe in academia, if that's really in the field being talked about a lot. But I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 13:48

That's just I know I feel the same way you do that I don't remember that being advised a lot. Right. I remember early on as a therapist, like kind of feeling a pressure somewhere in me to like almost like brush up on certain things before like getting in the room or with a group or whatever. I was struck by in reading this, like how many dialectics like we have to hold in our profession. You know, like being trained and prepared. And also being able to kind of release the preparation.

SPEAKER_00 14:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:23

And the preparation they're talking about here is like an emptying. You know, it's a clearing, which is so interesting. There's so few professions where that, I mean, maybe like acting can be like that a little or at times, but in a different way.

SPEAKER_02 14:38

Um you have to go in knowledgeable, forget all the knowledge, yes, and call on it when you need it.

SPEAKER_01 14:45

And like intuitively summon it. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 14:48

Which is like forget it and and use it at the same time.

SPEAKER_01 14:52

And that's not a cognitive thing. That is like a somatic kind of like intuitive spiritual kind of thing, which they talk about in the article.

SPEAKER_02 15:00

Which I liked the was it the third ear. The third ear. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 15:07

Yeah, tell us about that, Constantine.

SPEAKER_02 15:08

Well, I I think the idea is can we focus on what's being said, the content, what's not being said, but then as also what's being felt and what the the the in the space, right? And yes. So it's like noticing all of it at once. It's a different level of connection. Totally.

SPEAKER_01 15:29

That almost like your third eye. Yes. That's probably why it says third ear. It's third ear, yeah. When they say someone's like third eye is open, it's sort of like their spiritual like wisdom is awakened and they can sense things, right? Even if they're not, like you said, explicitly being shared verbally, or even necessarily like non-verbally, you know, it's like there's a sense. Yeah, presence can create more of like the deep relational bond. And so what it does is like it turns it from like two people to kind of like three subjects, right? Like therapist, yeah, client, and that inner subjective space. And it really prioritizes that space when you're present. Yeah, presence really allows that to like blossom. Yeah. The alchemy between the two.

SPEAKER_02 16:21

Yeah. I was thinking it's almost like what would be an experiment to show me or you sitting in the room with somebody. How would they know without us speaking that we're therapists versus if you just put somebody else in the room with somebody and they weren't speaking? Yeah. And I think that part of it is how we would sit in that silence and take up the space without saying anything.

The Three Phases Of Presence

SPEAKER_02 16:45

And maybe people wouldn't be able to tell that. I think maybe some people would, though, be able to, if two strangers were sitting in the room, yeah, not being able to make eye contact, yeah, that might be uncomfortable, yeah, really being fidgety in the chair, wanting to like that presence is not something that comes naturally. And I think that our presence with someone in the silence can make someone feel comfortable without speaking. Yeah. And it can foster a connection that's not verbal.

SPEAKER_01 17:16

I wonder if in some cases it's like comfort that the client feels, or like they're kind of saying like almost that feeling of like love, you know, like that powerful sense of like acceptance.

SPEAKER_02 17:30

Yeah, you don't have to do anything.

SPEAKER_01 17:32

And you know, at the beginning of the article, they talk a lot about the like Rogerian mindset, Carl Rogers, and almost like his late later in life adding to his like three-pronged conditions for the therapeutic relationship, which were like unconditional positive regard is the famous one. And the other two were acceptance of the client and one other thing, maybe compassion.

SPEAKER_02 17:59

Yeah, that sounds maybe right.

SPEAKER_01 18:00

And then I guess later in his life, like towards the end of his life, he was musing. He didn't really include this in a lot of his like official literature and research, but he kind of theorized that like maybe a fourth condition, and maybe even kind of the most powerful one that maybe kind of integrates all three, is this presence.

SPEAKER_02 18:24

Yes. I am inclined, this is Rogers. I'm inclined to think that in my writing I have stressed too much of the three basic conditions: congruence, unconditional positive regard, and empathic understanding. Perhaps it is something around the edges of those conditions that is really the most important element of therapy, which myself is very clearly obviously present.

SPEAKER_01 18:47

Some researchers argue that like when you really embody the first three, like presence is the result. But I think he's arguing like they don't necessarily actually make one like completely there in the right. And some of the therapists in this study, like the way that they prepared was simply even to kind of state to themselves the intention of like, I am going to be fully present here.

SPEAKER_02 19:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:12

I'm committing to that. And I thought I've I have never really said that to myself before entering a session. Like my preparation can be the meditating, which I try to do every day. I'm not always consistent with it. But yeah, or even sometimes in me, like reading a case file and then writing a little bit about my counter-transference in the case can help with my presence in the session.

SPEAKER_02 19:37

Taking a few deep breaths. Breathing. You know, for me, like maybe closing my eyes and try to just allow myself to be in that moment, notice where I'm at, nota, right? Like almost grounding in a way, and and then approach the session. Just even I I don't even do that sometimes because everything is so busy, or you're running back and forth um doing notes up until you know a couple minutes before you're meeting with the next person, you're eating lunch before you're meeting, right?

SPEAKER_01 20:03

So you're flying in.

SPEAKER_02 20:05

Yeah. So even just being more intentional about that, I feel like could be a way for me to start being more in in the preparation phase. Totally. Presence.

SPEAKER_01 20:15

What did you think about that concept of like bracketing kind of your personal life?

SPEAKER_02 20:21

That's hard.

SPEAKER_01 20:22

Yeah. I don't I had some reactions to that.

SPEAKER_02 20:26

Yeah. I don't know. What I what do you think they meant by that?

SPEAKER_01 20:30

You know, it's like I wonder if I might on some level disagree with what they meant. But I'll give maybe my most like generous interpretation or like the vertical.

Preparing Yourself Before Session

SPEAKER_02 20:40

I want to hear a generous interpretation.

SPEAKER_01 20:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:42

Like bracketing in parentheses, it says theories, preconception. I like the preconceptions and the therapy plans. I mean, I kind of like Oh, yes.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

I like that.

SPEAKER_02 20:56

That idea?

SPEAKER_01 20:57

Yes, totally. Yeah, okay. We'll start with that because like maybe that's more specifically the bracketing.

SPEAKER_02 21:02

Meaning, like when you're approaching a session, can you mentally kind of put brackets around your training, the theory, the intellectual pieces, or even preconceived notions of just the patient or where you want to go with them, or preconceptions on what they're gonna bring in.

SPEAKER_01 21:20

Yeah. There's a famous quote that you should approach every session without memory or desire for the client or the group, you know, not putting your agenda, not pursuing anything yourself.

SPEAKER_02 21:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

This state of being with a client instead of doing to a client.

SPEAKER_02 21:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:40

Which I really like because I'm like, right when I uh thought of that doing to a client, sometimes I can, depending on the client and the energy subjective relationship, I can move or kind of get moved into a place where I feel a little like I'm teaching them or guiding. Them advising. And I can notice it. And sometimes I have to really slow down and get more present with my own feeling states to be able to like organically move out of that. Or sometimes I have to name it and share it with the client, which they mention, of course, too in the article. Like when you directly share. Like I'm noticing I'm I'm in this role. And I'm wondering how you're experiencing this role. Is it helpful? I'm feeling like it isn't.

SPEAKER_02 22:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:30

You're not really bracketing yourself because to be present, you have to be wholly there.

SPEAKER_02 22:36

Right.

SPEAKER_01 22:37

Without having any of your personal life until it's literally impossible.

SPEAKER_02 22:40

Well, it's impossible. And in the the working phase or being present with them, you have to notice what's coming up for yourself. So of course, your personal life will bleed into that. You can't really like bracket that outside. I mean, I like the idea in theory of being a blank slate or that type of thing. The problem for me always lies in, well, then what interventions are you making? You have to bring previous sessions in to identify the clinically relevant behaviors that are coming up and try to point those out to patients in real time, especially from a functional analytic perspective. Yes, and right. Like, I get it. It's great to meet them where they're at, and you still have an agenda. You're still trying to make interventions with people.

SPEAKER_01 23:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:24

Um, so I think it goes back to that initial thing we were talking about. Bring in what you know, forget about it until you need to use it again.

SPEAKER_01 23:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:32

Which doesn't that's hard. Yeah. Like it's really difficult.

SPEAKER_01 23:37

Well, it's funny, it's like my intellectual self almost is fighting even in this moment with my more like kind of spiritual, like that center of memory-wise mind. Because I I agree with you where it's like you don't want to literally forget all of this training.

SPEAKER_02 23:56

Right. Which I don't think that's what this is telling us to do.

SPEAKER_01 24:00

And you couldn't do that. You couldn't do it. You can't internalize it. Yeah. So it's sort of like maybe really this ineffable piece is kind of trusting that when something organically emerges in the space, then all that stuff will rise up.

SPEAKER_02 24:17

It'll leave.

SPEAKER_01 24:18

Yeah. So it's like, can you trust yourself enough there? Which I do think presence is a lot of trust that like what is necessary will come up in the session and will come out of me. Yeah. In the times where I really give over to that trust, that does bear out. You know, or or even if it like you're stumbling your way there, like that's okay too. And that can be like relevant in the space. Yeah. But yeah, it's like, and and even them, they said this in the article, right? Them trying to operationalize presence is pretty antithetical to the experience of presence. Like if you, I think they said that in the abstract or maybe in like the early the intro or something, you know, to try to make this scientific really kind of misses the point that it's like a felt sense of someone being there with you. Yeah. Being really alive, seeing you, you know, allowing the alchemy between you and other person to actually take

Bracketing Theory Without Losing It

SPEAKER_01 25:20

shape. Um, yeah, but but it is interesting. Like I even thought of like the whole like let go of all like your personal life. I was like, you know, it's like I I I was kind of feeling like interesting, you know, like I almost wanted to like meet the the 10 therapists and talk with them more about that idea.

SPEAKER_02 25:42

Yeah, like what does that even mean?

SPEAKER_01 25:43

Yeah. Well, one therapist even said, you know, it's it's important that you make sure you kind of take care of all the things necessary in your personal life and kind of close all those loose ends so that you don't bring them into the session. I'm like, who's ever closed all their loose? You can't do that.

SPEAKER_00 26:00

Right.

SPEAKER_01 26:00

You know, I was sort of like, who is this person? Right. It it almost sounded kind of naive to me. And and I know that would never work for me, kind of being like, okay, make sure I paid every bill, make sure I made every appointment, did everything.

SPEAKER_02 26:13

It's absolutely impossible.

SPEAKER_01 26:15

Right. I almost would have better luck kind of noticing the things on my mind and saying, like, asking a part of me holding them to like set them down for the next 50 minutes. Right. Can I know that those are there? Those are in the background, the periphery. Yeah. And in this 50 minutes, I'll be here. Like that to me is so much more workable for me than to be like, just make sure that everything's kind of tidy in your personal life and then you'll be a good therapist. It's like, what?

SPEAKER_02 26:44

Block it up. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:46

I mean, I don't even have that ethos with any client ever. No. So that was a really interesting. I was like, I'd want to ask that person more.

SPEAKER_02 26:54

In reading this, there's this like conflict of, but some of that stuff might come up. And if you're truly present and you're clued into what's coming up for you, then you are really present, right? And noticing that. So preparation, sure, I get it. Try to limit like distractions, or if you have a lot going on, get yourself centered before you enter the space. And if you notice things coming up for you while you're in the space with someone, that means you're being present. And so how can you then shift it back, right? Right.

SPEAKER_01 27:25

Well, and even to go a step further, there's so many paradoxes in this article because and in our profession and what we do. But I I can get, you know, any human being can get distracted. There, there was like a neuroscientist I heard he was once on the goop podcast. What? What's his name? Goop. Maybe I could look it up. But he was saying that like humans, their the mind wanders like 47% of the time that you're trying to focus. It's like almost half the time. Like that's just natural. So it's like to expect yourself to be complete. That was kind of sometimes what it sounded like some of these therapists were saying that they're like completely and totally 100% present. And I'm like, that couldn't even happen a whole session.

SPEAKER_02 28:04

Right.

SPEAKER_01 28:05

Like really. Right. Sometimes like being perfectly present is like not being present. Like to your point, right? Like if I'm with a client and I'm noticing over and over and over and over and over I'm getting distracted. This is like a Yalum idea and just a general kind of psychodynamic principle. If that's happening over and over and I'm really making like genuine efforts to refocus and I keep getting pulled away, it's often like relevant in the inner subjective space. Like maybe something really important is not being discussed and being avoided, and that's kind of exhausting, that's kind of uninteresting. And I am feeling that kind of disavowed experience of the other. And it's like if my goal is just like perfect presence, and even sometimes I would argue unconditional positive regard can can go in this direction where like you're then having to disavow what's actually coming up for you.

SPEAKER_02 29:07

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 29:07

When you sit with someone and what might be coming up for like many other people in that person's life.

SPEAKER_02 29:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 29:13

It's this paying attention. I mean, you almost could just say it's paying attention.

SPEAKER_02 29:19

To me, the article is extremely useful, and there's so many effective things to take from it. Great. We have a foundation of understanding of how we want to try to be in the space. Yeah. What are the interventions you're gonna make? That that's almost like this is foundational to, and you're not gonna sit there and just sit there. Yeah. It feels a little passive. Unconditional positive regard, so useful so much, it feels a little passive.

SPEAKER_01 29:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:47

For me personally.

SPEAKER_01 29:49

And if it's the only thing. And if it's the only thing.

SPEAKER_02 29:52

And it wasn't always what's necessary for me to do that and make those interventions is to be present.

SPEAKER_01 29:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:58

Right. So it's not passivity. Right. It shouldn't be, and and I'm not saying anybody's confusing this, but the presence shouldn't be confused with passive. Right. Or that we're not trying to intervene at moments. Yeah. So well, it's like but sometimes the article could lean in that direction where it's like, just be present. Yeah, yeah, totally. Don't think about your personal life, and there's gonna be transformation, automatic transformation might be happening. Which they they didn't say that. That's not a quote or anything. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're not well, I'm not, and I don't think you are like coming down on this article. I think there's a lot. No, there's a lot about it.

SPEAKER_01 30:36

And they're they are making space for like the dissent definitely. But okay, here's something. Maybe I'm gonna say something like almost controversial in a table.

SPEAKER_02 30:44

I love a controversial thing.

SPEAKER_01 30:45

Like, could unconditional positive regard ever be an agenda of the therapist? Like, I'm gonna think positively of this client. Could you sometimes be disavowing like if a negative judgment keeps coming up for me of them? Maybe I can explore that within myself.

Countertransference And The Limits Of Positivity

SPEAKER_01 31:06

Like if I'm finding a client and their behavior, like I'm noticing a part of me keeps judging it. Yeah. It might be worth before you just say, like, turn toward the positive, it might be worth noticing, like I am in this profession to heal. That is my intention to help healing. It almost could be a part of the client that wants you to dislike them and there's protection in them.

SPEAKER_02 31:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:30

That it's vulnerable to be liked. It's vulnerable to be seen as good, or it doesn't match how they actually feel about self. You know what I'm saying? Like, I almost think it's like if a client truly hates themselves, like you have to meet them there. You don't hate them, but you embrace like that experience.

SPEAKER_02 31:50

It's like almost you we have unconditional regard for them as a human. Yes, it doesn't have to be positive or respect.

SPEAKER_01 31:56

Acceptance like of their existence and their right to live. But yeah, it's sort of like it's not always positive. It's not always positive. And like that's why I think like intentions, I wish there was an even like a looser word than intention, even because even that, it's like openness to them and how they are. Because that makes space for them to be pushing you away and to get pushed away. As a person who has your own subjectivity, when someone wants to push me away, sometimes it happens.

SPEAKER_02 32:32

Right.

SPEAKER_01 32:32

You know, and it's like if it happens, you really want to pay attention to that rather than just have positive regard. Yes. This is why it's really hard to write an article on presence, you know, or study presence. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:47

I applaud them for do trying and and succeeding in doing it. Totally. In a way, totally. I want to bring this into supervision with my supervisee. Yeah. And have them read it. And and just explore with them. Are you, because now I'm thinking about, yeah, how are you approaching the space? Are you preparing? Not that I'm telling them they should or shouldn't. I just think that's a great question to even have supervision about. And maybe that's a thing that's been lacking, not only in what I'm doing as a therapist, but also I'm not maybe thinking about the importance of passing that on to the people I supervise. Yeah. Maybe it's it's a lost space maybe in the art of therapy. Maybe it isn't. Maybe I'm just not having been exposed to it, or maybe there are a lot of practices or groups or people that really make this. Like I have to have the pre.

SPEAKER_00 33:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:44

You know, the pre-therapy, the the preparation, how do I, but I'm I'd be curious to bring it into supervision and just see where that conversation moves.

SPEAKER_01 33:52

Yeah, there probably aren't a ton of conversations about like the best preparation you can do is to be aligned with self. I mean, it's kind of to be in touch with your wise mind, you know, and like if you're noticing you're blocked from that, yeah, kind of dealing with that in some practice. You know, I've even been finding lately, like really identifying my own feeling states, which is a type of presence, has really helped me. The feeling state I have before going into a session, the feeling state I have like talking to a friend, the feeling state I have during a session when something comes up when I'm stuck with something, kind of pursuing that a little bit, right? Like if I'm feeling fearful. Yeah. Or like sometimes I'll feel guilty in a way that is kind of confusing. With one case, like more, the more that I pursued that, the more I felt like maybe this person is relating to therapy. Like therapy is their like perpetrator. Like therapy is making them anxious. Exploration is making them anxious. And that might be worth like sharing with the client. Like, I noticed this feeling comes up for me, like I'm hurting you in some way. Do you ever feel that?

SPEAKER_00 35:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:10

That's something, you know, if I'm having the feeling, it's relevant. Or it's something I'll just keep in the back of my mind and notice like, will it come up? But again, it's like I'm keeping it in mind and then I'm kind of throwing it away. Right. I kind of feel all this like compassion for therapists out there. You know, like that is a really complex thing to hold that dialectic and be prepared and let yourself be unprepared. There's so much like vulnerability.

SPEAKER_02 35:38

Yeah. And it's effortful. I mean, it takes a lot of energy to be able to do it.

SPEAKER_01 35:43

And a lot of like courage.

SPEAKER_02 35:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 35:46

There's like so many jobs where like there isn't this like really intense kind of spiritual peace to do it well.

SPEAKER_02 35:53

Yeah, on top of just the jarring content that you might be.

SPEAKER_01 35:57

Oh my God.

SPEAKER_02 35:58

So as much as this article isn't geared towards us focusing on the content, the content matters, and what people are sharing has an impact, right? And there's burnout and and yeah, being traumatized as a therapist, depending on, you know.

SPEAKER_01 36:13

Right, like vicarious trauma, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:16

Yes, this article is great at let's not focus on the content, and the content matters. And it is, it's it can take a toll.

SPEAKER_01 36:22

We're dealing with this really heavy content and then doing this really complex in our work ourselves in in the presence process. And then imagine if you're reading this article and considering these ideas when you're like grieving a parent.

SPEAKER_02 36:36

Right.

SPEAKER_01 36:36

Your kid is being bullied at school.

SPEAKER_02 36:38

The loose ends, you mean?

SPEAKER_01 36:39

I mean, it's just like I I my heart goes out. Yeah. This is why we need to have our own therapy, our own like supports as colleagues, right? Our supervision. We need like a team, you know, because it it is an enormous thing to ask of a human being. Right. To check your stuff at the door like that. It's really, yeah. And like I had this thought, this was maybe a moment where I became a little overwhelmed with feeling in a session, but having this awareness and working through trauma with a client, like it's so unfair that someone can be like really victimized, and then they have to do this really hard trauma reprocessing to heal.

SPEAKER_00 37:22

Right.

SPEAKER_01 37:23

That's so fucking unfair.

SPEAKER_00 37:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:25

I'll notice that when clients kind of notice it, like they're really angry, they have to do the work. Yes. And that anger is so valid, and like I almost want them to really feel it and rage and know that this is unfair as a reality. So I just kind of came became overwhelmed with that this week. Like, that is a lot to ask of someone. Yeah. And then we kind of sit with that, and then I have to go move apartments. Right. You know, and like you have to live your life, go to the fertility clinic and try to like connect to my friends and right. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:58

I mean, that's a lot. It's so much. And talk about a concept that people bristle at so much, radical acceptance. We've talked about that in previous episodes, right? This idea of this is the reality. Not that you anybody's condoning it or anything, but this is the reality. Yeah. And it's not fair. And you're right, it isn't fair. And how can we try to work through this and go through this somehow?

SPEAKER_01 38:25

And you know, like in this article, they would maybe say like the presence. I like the way the one therapist put it where she said, like, you are deeply aware of like their pain without being overtaken by it and fusing with it. Like in that moment, I was feeling anger on behalf of the patient. Sure. The client. And I don't even know that that was so counter-therapeutic. Like, I think it was like joining them in like very justified rage.

SPEAKER_02 38:51

I think the alignment shows how attuned you are and also connects from just common humanity that this is not right. It is extremely therapeutic to just be with somebody in that, with

Trauma Work Burnout And Support

SPEAKER_02 39:05

them, and experience that feeling with them too. Yeah. Cause who in that moment wants to hear some sort of nugget? And we love nuggets as therapists, but that's not the moment for it. No. That's just not the moment. That probably would do more damage. And and the person would feel more invalidated or more shut down. And I think it's just more of a human response.

SPEAKER_01 39:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:28

And we are human as well. That can really, I think that is presence right there. Is like, yeah, this we don't need to say anything else other than this is tragic. Literally, this is tragic. And I'm in, I'm right there with you. Like this is tragic. You know, this is not just. It's not right. It's not any of those things. Right. And I see you in that. I'm feeling that with you.

SPEAKER_01 39:51

And see you with my third eye, which is like the feeling of up. And yeah. And I didn't like, you know, spend a week raging. You know, it was like I shed a tear afterward and then kind of was able to let it go. But yeah, early in my career when I was less like paying attention to like what clients evoked in me. And and I was paying attention, but like maybe sometimes trying to fix it rather than like really explore it. I'm just realizing like I had this client who had probably the most severe trauma I'd ever heard. Horrendous abuse experience. And I remember all I ever felt working with the client was like complete and total terror. Because they were doing very dangerous self-harming behaviors. Like very, very dangerous and suicidal. You know, like new also where they were incredibly intelligent and like knew all these ways to like, you know, harm themselves. I'm realizing now they were putting me in the role that they were in in their trauma. Like a terror that overtook me and I could not sleep, I could not function. I remember I was like, I I cannot deal with this. I have to just like get away from this case and like give it to someone else. And and I'm realizing now, like, if I had maybe had a supervisor who like was a little more grounded themselves and probably present, and were able to like help me to guide me toward noticing like, is this something? Does she want you to feel what she felt on some unconscious level? The unbelievable terror. And I'm like, it was the worst trauma I'd ever heard, and it was the worst experience I ever had with a client and pain, the most pain I'd ever been in. And it's sort of like, yeah, I was so terrified for her well-being. Sure. If I had just said like unconditional positive regard, Kelly, first of all, that's incredibly invalidating to me.

SPEAKER_00 41:48

Right.

SPEAKER_01 41:48

I think she went through that trauma and like someone sitting with her would feel that. And it also probably disarmed me. I was so terrified I was in this like passive position.

SPEAKER_02 41:57

Right.

SPEAKER_01 41:58

And then she's safe. I'm not a perpetrator. It's like to not be willing to kind of pay attention to all that, I you would lose something. And I I kind of feel like maybe I did lose something in trying to probably be positive and accepting. I wasn't really seeing that, like maybe in some way she doesn't want that yet.

SPEAKER_02 42:17

Yet.

SPEAKER_01 42:18

Because everybody deserves and on some level, like we move toward connection.

SPEAKER_02 42:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:24

But yeah, like you have to honor, like, she may not be ready for that. And that's fair.

SPEAKER_02 42:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 42:29

I like this article. I know I'm like in some ways disagreeing with a lot of people.

SPEAKER_02 42:32

I don't think we are. I mean, I think some of the points that we've made, yeah. I mean, we're critiquing. I think it's a great article. Totally. I said I'm already thinking about bringing into supervision. And I want to keep that intention of toying with how am I preparing? I I think that's a that's a growth edge for me. Yeah, me too.

SPEAKER_01 42:53

I want to really commit to meditating every day.

SPEAKER_02 42:56

I think this is one of those articles that gives you a lot of things to think about. And it's like a menu. You don't have to take everything from it, right? You you order what works for you. And that doesn't mean I'm not willing to try some things that I'm like, well, I don't really know.

SPEAKER_01 43:10

Like if you're going through a really hard time in your personal life, because I feel like I'm always kind of going through a hard time of some kind, but a real time. Let's say a really hard time. Let's say a crisis. To slow down before a session and say, like, this hour, I'm here for this person, and I'm here. I think it can be really therapeutic for me in a crisis to realize like, this is my career, this is a person I care about that I'm treating. This does matter to me. Yeah. And and setting down my stuff for an hour doesn't have to be invalidating to me. It can be right aligned with who I am and even a relief.

SPEAKER_02 43:46

Exploring maybe counter transference, even thinking about how important it is for therapists to notice what's coming up for them in the space. Right. Because it's not just about I don't know, some newer Clinicians I've worked with, it's almost like a foreign thing to them. Maybe it just takes more time to think about what's coming up for them as well in the session. And it's just such a foreign thing. And I think that with modeling and pointing it out and talking about your own countertransference when, you know, because that's what I do in supervision too, is if they're not really getting it, it's like, okay, I have to like pin that as like, okay, I have to think about this next week before I meet with them again, like a time where I can use as a concrete example. Because I think that sometimes this might make it a little bit more concrete for people as what does that mean? What's coming up for you, as well as what's going on in the session? I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 44:39

Do you think I wonder? That makes me wonder. I have no idea, but in these like managed care type environments, like, do people not feel like that's going to be welcome to like go down that road?

SPEAKER_02 44:51

Maybe. I don't know. I mean, I anecdotally heard somebody I was working with and supervised, not I'm sorry, not a patient, uh, another clinician who I took on to supervise. They had said that like a previous supervisor told them when they brought up their own personal, like what was coming up for them in the session, the person's feedback was kind of like, well, it sounds like you're not really focusing on the patient and you're focusing too much on yourself. So yeah, that was I know. So it was kind of like, okay, well, what's really being said out there?

SPEAKER_01 45:27

Like, yeah, you know, and I'm paraphrasing but that's experience a little because you know me.

SPEAKER_02 45:34

And I wasn't in the rooms, so I don't know. Maybe the person was thinking more about their own issues. I again, I wasn't in there, but to me it had the flair of well, don't think what's coming up for you in this session. Solely think uh 100% externally on what other people are or what your patients are saying.

SPEAKER_01 45:54

And like I'm noticing right now in me, like a judgment is coming up of that other clinician, whoever they were, this imagined other clinician. Um, wait, what was it?

SPEAKER_02 46:03

Yes, well, it was hard in that moment to not just completely like my jaw hit the floor and be like, can you delete that from your memory and just completely disregard it? Yeah. I had to kind of honor, okay. And yeah, um, there might be some other ways we can, you know, think about this. Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_01 46:22

So well, okay, you know me.

SPEAKER_02 46:25

Like when I get that's a huge reveal here.

SPEAKER_01 46:28

I know Kelly. We've noticed. Those of you who that like it's like when I my sort of like philosophy or ethos, it's like there's very few people who are gonna like pull me off bad track when I'm on it. Right. And like I'm really I really believe in this like noticing self and and and like bringing the whole self in. And so it's like, of course, I've waltzed into these like managed care environments talking like that and like bringing that in. And I have definitely gotten people eye rolls, yeah. Or being kind of like, that's not really what we do here. Right, right. And you know, of course, I just kind of keep on doing my thing.

SPEAKER_02 47:07

I think people jump quickly to thinking that this person does this is what I take from it. And this is like an amalgam of like different things I've heard or seen and witnessed. When people start noticing their own stuff and are talking about it in a clinical way and in a present way and in like a counter-transference kind of way, some people get extremely uncomfortable with that. Yeah, and that's their own discomfort, yeah. Some people confuse that and think that that's well, this person is talking about their own stuff. They need therapy.

SPEAKER_01 47:40

Yeah, yep.

SPEAKER_02 47:41

So I feel like there's like these two ends of the spectrum, and not everybody goes there, but I think it all stems from people's own discomfort of them being able to sit with. No, that's an important part of this process is to notice your discomfort when things are coming up in the session, or notice when you were having a reaction, right? And I think that was something that was taught to me very clearly. And and I luckily I had a supervisor who really put a lot of emphasis on that in especially my internship supervision.

SPEAKER_01 48:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 48:12

And so I think that it is uncomfortable to talk about, and you it only gets more comfortable, quote unquote, by talking about like you have to talk about it, right? So I'm in the same boat. I mean, when people are not thinking about like what's going on, it's or even like sometimes I'll co-lead a group and I'll be like, wow, I had like, did you notice this? I had and the person is just kind of like blank and I'm like, and then they're like, you know, well, then move on to the next thing. And it's well, we what? Like, let's talk about that moment for a second. There was a lot. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 48:44

Oh, I feel that so much.

SPEAKER_02 48:46

I really will have I mean, there were times you and I would come out of a group and we would just shut the door and didn't even have to say anything. We would just look at each other and be like, What? What? And and we knew immediately the same moment we were talking about it wasn't a shocker. It wasn't like, oh, you you noticed that because I was thinking of this thing. That rarely happened. It was always like that was the moment or those were the moments in there. And sometimes that's just like yeah, and I don't know if that's people don't want to think about it or whatever, but anyway, right, or if there's like an insecurity in the way of it, yeah, like feeling what's coming up in the room and like being with it.

SPEAKER_01 49:26

I like how they said be with instead of do to.

SPEAKER_02 49:29

Yeah, but I think that comes with, and I hate to admit it, age. Yeah, definitely. We're not old, but we're not like new to the field. We're not spring chickens anymore in this field. So yeah, I think you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:45

I actually had the thought in the article, and they're like, it has to be they picked only therapist 10 years, and I'm like, okay, so some seasoned people, and then I'm like, I've been in the field now. Like, what have I been for 13 years or something? I was like, oh damn, like I actually fit this. A lot. Yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_02 50:00

Yeah, I'm double that.

SPEAKER_01 50:02

So yeah, wow. He could have written this article.

SPEAKER_02 50:06

They didn't have paper.

SPEAKER_01 50:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:10

When I came into the field, I would have to chisel it.

SPEAKER_01 50:12

Yeah. Um, okay, so let me read it just in case anyone really wants to read this article.

SPEAKER_02 50:18

Read it. Tell us what you think. Contact us.

SPEAKER_01 50:21

It's by Geller, Sherry M. Geller, and Leslie Greenberg. Therapeutic presence, therapist's experience of presence in the psychotherapy encounter. So take a look.

SPEAKER_02 50:31

Do you remember where you like was it just it was the paperwork? I think it if you Google that it was not pay perfect. Great article. Check it out. Yeah. Reach out to us. People haven't been reaching out to me. What's the deal?

SPEAKER_01 50:43

People have not really been reaching out to me either.

SPEAKER_02 50:45

Get reaching out. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:47

Don't be shy.

SPEAKER_02 50:48

Don't be shy. You know what platforms we're on. You know how to reach us. But now we're going to transition into our how wise is a question.

How Wise Is Bar Soap

SPEAKER_02 50:54

So for today, how wise is it to use bar soap?

SPEAKER_01 50:59

Yeah. And I mean, I had a visceral.

SPEAKER_02 51:01

Talk about being present with your reactions. Oh. Bar soap.

SPEAKER_01 51:05

I really get skeeved out by it. You know, it's like, I know the idea is like it's soap. So it's like it can't be gross because it's soap. Interesting. I mean, is that the reason people are like having these in their homes and their whole families using it?

SPEAKER_02 51:22

Bar soap I feel like should have maybe ceased to exist. I mean, it should be a big thing.

SPEAKER_01 51:29

It should be done. I don't know. Unless you live alone, I guess. But even then, I'm like, I don't even want my own weirdness on that thing. I want a bottle of something they squeeze that hasn't touched my body. Yeah. Well, what's the wisdom in bar soap?

SPEAKER_02 51:45

It's compact.

SPEAKER_01 51:46

I mean, it's it's cheaper, typically.

SPEAKER_02 51:48

It's definitely cheaper. There's wisdom there. Yeah. And it's easier to travel with, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 51:54

Oh, interesting, I guess. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 51:57

Now we're going to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_01 51:57

They do have them a lot at hotels.

SPEAKER_02 51:59

A lot at hotels. And they're in that hard, almost plastic wrapping that's hard to get off. I know. It is hard to get off.

SPEAKER_01 52:06

It's like you have fucking scissors with you.

SPEAKER_02 52:08

The other thing that's not wise about it is even if you're just using it as hand soap, it's in like a gross little puddle. Oh. When you leave it. And the bottom's like soft. And the bottom's soft, but the top's hard. It's a little milky in the bottom there. Oh my god. Um it's like between a solid and a liquid. It's between a solid and a liquid, but just the bottom. Just the bottom. Yeah. And the top's like dried out, kind of. Well, that was the other thing. Now, again, I this is not recent information at all because I haven't tested it, but it would dry my skin out so bad.

SPEAKER_01 52:41

Oh my god, yeah. I mean, I think they make kinds now that don't do that, but um yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:47

Yeah, but a dove, I think it really is drying. Well, that's what I'm saying. I don't have any new knowledge. I just don't think you can make a bar soap that is moisturizing.

SPEAKER_01 52:58

Yeah. Unless it's almost like pure. Well, no, I it's like you'd have to put some kind of like oil in it.

SPEAKER_02 53:06

Now, here's what I will say.

unknown 53:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 53:08

I'm gonna start using bar soap.

unknown 53:11

No.

SPEAKER_02 53:11

There was a uh bougie bar soap that somebody got me, and I say bougie, it was I think it was Kiel's maybe. Love a Kiel's. Kiehl's is bougie. And Keel's it had little hard things in it that would exfoliate your skin in the bar. A lot of them? Yeah, kind of. So that was a little bit of a different experience where I didn't convert to bar soap, but somebody got me it once and I was like, oh, I'll try it. This smells really good. Keel's products are really nice. And it was like, oh, okay, like it exfoliates, but that was about where it ended. It was like, okay, that was a nice little side project. Yeah. Making it an exfoliating bar with like hard little Right, and they they don't sell it anymore. Well, maybe they do. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 53:58

I went right back to my yeah, yeah, you didn't repurchase liquid. No, it didn't repurchase. No, it wasn't enough for me to do that. It's always something typically speaking of paying attention to pay attention to. What are the items you actually repurchased and you actually care about?

SPEAKER_02 54:11

It was a good experience, it was kind of nice, it was a different scent, it was Yeah, and you felt like exfoliated. Yeah, a little bit, but it still felt dry to me in a way.

SPEAKER_01 54:21

And exfoliating can be drying at times. Yes. If you don't follow up with some serious moisture.

SPEAKER_02 54:27

So what is the wisdom other than cost? Eco friendly. Is it more eco-friendly?

SPEAKER_03 54:34

Well, it's not in a oh it's not in a plastic. So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:38

Like in a paper carton.

SPEAKER_03 54:39

So that is or that hard tiny plastic.

SPEAKER_00 54:45

Right.

SPEAKER_02 54:46

Not a huge bottle plastic. I mean, a lot of them are just sold in boxes.

SPEAKER_01 54:51

Right.

SPEAKER_02 54:52

Like a single box or like a three-pack of boxes. Some of them are still wrapped, but yeah, I guess that would be the wisdom there. Less ingredients.

SPEAKER_01 55:01

I'm gonna look up this Keel's exfoliating. Yeah, look that up.

SPEAKER_02 55:06

Oh my god, yes. It's a bar, right? Yeah, it's a keel. Totally. That's totally.

SPEAKER_01 55:16

Oh wait, I don't know what that's.

SPEAKER_03 55:18

For some reason, this is making me hungry. Soap is?

SPEAKER_02 55:20

Like I want a chocolate bar. I think the I mean, one other wise thing is the movie Fight Club.

SPEAKER_03 55:28

Oh, that's my most positive association.

SPEAKER_02 55:30

That is my most positive association with soap and bar soap in particular, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:36

Wow, this is highly efficient male body scrub soap made with bran and oatmeal. This Kiehl's customer favorite boasts a refreshing scent to invigorate the senses.

SPEAKER_02 55:48

Listen, I'm so pro-Kiel's. I love Kiel's products. Yeah, they have great stuff. I I think I'm just not into bar soap. So Kiehl's, I know you're looking to sponsor us, but please do it. Oh, wait, I'm not on the Kiel's. Yeah, you're just online shopping. Get the brick, get the brick.

SPEAKER_01 56:02

I know, I know.

SPEAKER_02 56:03

Get the brick for her. I've gone deep. I don't know. It's hard for me to find the wisdom, though it is wise to not purchase more plastics. I guess the cost. You're literally shopping online, right? Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. Ah, she can't now it's been open. I I have a flood game. She was just looking at eye cream or something. Bar soap turned into eye cream.

SPEAKER_01 56:29

Like that. I I can't I really had just associated.

SPEAKER_02 56:32

Like enough of this how eyes isn't. I'm shocking.

SPEAKER_01 56:34

I'm like medicated facial cream. Medicated in what way? What's in that? It's color me intrigued.

SPEAKER_02 56:41

And the one thing that probably people are shying away from talking about is I mean, the idea of a bar soap in a shared living situation where the same people are using that bar of soap in different areas of their body.

SPEAKER_01 56:56

I oh boy, it's like I can't even think about it.

SPEAKER_02 56:59

No, no, no. You think about the hair on the soap.

SPEAKER_01 57:02

I I yeah. Yep. No, I cannot think about that. I will not think about that. I will not have presence with that thought. Okay. Like, whoa, so gross. Yeah, what do you think? It's unwise. It's unwise.

SPEAKER_02 57:18

Yeah, there's not, I don't think there's a lot of wisdom there.

SPEAKER_01 57:20

And if you're if you're concerned about the eco factor, yeah, you know, there's other options. You know, there's them those Myers soaps, or not Myers um, Dr. Bronner, I think did they?

SPEAKER_02 57:35

Yeah, that sounds right.

SPEAKER_01 57:36

I think they may even sell bar soap, but like, you know, like find a company where the packaging is recyclable. Yes. And use a body wash for God's sake. This is me giving advice.

SPEAKER_02 57:48

I mean, this is uh next week we're gonna follow up with how wise is it to still use loofahs.

SPEAKER_01 57:54

I you really don't see a loofah much anymore. They just there's spores. I mean, they're just like moldy, moldy Well, okay, I wonder what you think about this because I have a probably a relative of the loofah in our shower currently, which is two gloves that are exfoliating gloves. So they're not meant for scrubbing, they're meant for exfoliation. So they're like rough gloves, they're like sandpaper gloves that I put body wash on and then scrub my whole body every shower. Okay. Sure. Thoughts? Yeah. Okay. How do you think you think that's moldy mold? There's soap on them, so I rinse them in the water and squeeze out all the things. They don't attract mold.

SPEAKER_02 58:36

I thought the whole thing with loofahs was after a while, they just start to develop mold.

SPEAKER_01 58:41

Yeah, and then you throw them out, I think.

SPEAKER_02 58:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:43

Well, these I do throw these out after a couple months. Yeah. Maybe I should be doing it once.

SPEAKER_02 58:48

I'm just good with the with the what you got. Your God-given hands. Use the hands.

SPEAKER_01 58:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:53

The hands team.

SPEAKER_01 58:54

I do like to feel a little kind of rough, sloughing off.

SPEAKER_02 58:58

Yeah, you want that shedding of the dead, the deads. The epidermis. The epidermis.

SPEAKER_01 59:03

There you go. Epithelials, I think, is actually wise. Great.

SPEAKER_02 59:09

Um, yeah, I don't, yeah. I mean, I just don't, yeah, back to bar soap, not a fan.

SPEAKER_01 59:16

Not a fan. Unwise.

SPEAKER_02 59:18

If you if you're still using bar soap, maybe give a liquid soap a try. Give it a chance. Please. Advance it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:26

And you know, like seek out some of those brands that are using biodegradable packaging, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:33

Definitely. Yeah. And I'm sure there's an expense, but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:37

But just try it once. You need to pay it now.

SPEAKER_02 59:40

You need to pay right now. Not that wise. Bar soap, sorry. You didn't make the cut this episode. Yeah. All right.

SPEAKER_01 59:48

Okay. Well, thank you everyone

Where To Find Us And Final Asks

SPEAKER_01 59:50

for listening. That's our episode. Where can people find you, Jonathan?

SPEAKER_02 59:52

Yeah, reach out. Uh, let us know what you think about this article. Once you read it, let us know what you think about bar soap or any soap. Maybe there's a bar soap out there we don't know of. That's life-changing. It's butz. Jonathan at gmail.com. You can also listen to us on all platforms, right? Yeah. Spotify.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:09

Really all platforms.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:11

Apple.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:11

I defy you. Find a platform. Find a platform.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:14

Watch us on YouTube. Maybe a lot of our listeners don't know they can watch us on YouTube.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:18

Watch our episodes.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:19

Yeah. Yes, you can watch the full episode, or you also can watch them on YouTube Shorts as well. Yeah. You can see what we look like.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:25

You can put a face with the name.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:28

All right. What about you?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:30

Um, if you want to reach me, you can find me at kkpsychotherapy.com. Um if you want to work with me, if you I have some you know, summer openings. If you want to talk about the pod, possibly be on the pod, um, shoot me an inquiry there at kkpsychotherapy.com. And how about you, John? Or Josh.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:50

I am john.john. I am josh bayerfilms.com. Bayer Bayer is in the aspirin, B-A-Y-E-R. And uh, ooh, another thing you can rate our podcast. Rate it. Yes, you've been loving it so much. Maybe tell about it, rate it a five-star.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:11

Yes, it helps us get discovered if you rate and review the podcast. So we do, if you're enjoying it, we would love, love, love you to take a second and do that.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:21

And on that note, check out the new Olivia Rodrigo. She's famous and it's pop music. Ooh, I like it. I'm in. John listened to it for 30 seconds. He said, I'm in. I'm in already. It is a conceptual album. It is a breakup album, chronically. It's great. The rise and fall of a relationship. The middle track is called Purple because it's a mix of the hot of red and the cold of blue.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:48

I mean, it's incredible.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:50

You think it's incredible?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:51

Yeah, I like it. No, I think your analysis is incredible.

unknown 1:01:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:55

I've been loving the album. I was running to it today in our new neighborhood, and I thought, I love live.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:00

Oh, that's wonderful. But Rape the Pod.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:03

Rape Olivia Rodrigo. Rate the Pod.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:06

Yeah. Okay, and we'll see you next time. Thanks, everyone. Thanks, everybody.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:10

Bye.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:10

Bye.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:11

Thank you, Blake Fords. Bye. Thank you, Blanket Fords Bye. Thank you, Blake Itford.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:15

The Wisemind Happy Hour podcast is for entertainment purposes only, not to be treated as medical advice. If you are struggling with your mental health, please seek medical attention or counseling.