Why Would You Pay to Talk to a Man?

Today we explore a counterintuitive trend among women: intentionally seeking out straight, male therapists for their mental health care. Inspired by The Cut article "Why Would You Pay to Talk to a Man?" by Meaghan O'Connell, we dive deep into this phenomenon.  While a large majority of women still prefer female therapists, both clients and clinicians are making concrete use of gender dynamics inside the consulting room.

- music by blanket forts -

Transcript

Fathers Day, Art, And A Heist

SPEAKER_04 0:04

Oh, welcome to the Wise Mind Happy Hour. I'm Kelly.

SPEAKER_01 0:09

And I'm John. Booker Bag.

SPEAKER_04 0:11

Welcome back, everyone. We're back. We're back. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 0:16

Please watch us on YouTube. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 0:18

YouTube Shorts. Check us out on YouTube. Yeah. If you want to see the video. Check us out on Apple Podcasts too or Spotify.

SPEAKER_03 0:24

Just check it out.

SPEAKER_04 0:25

Check it out. So tell us what's new. What's going on with you?

SPEAKER_03 0:30

Well, it was Father's Day this past week.

SPEAKER_04 0:32

Yes. Happy Father's Day. I didn't even say that to you. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_03 0:34

That's all right.

SPEAKER_04 0:35

Happy Father's Day.

SPEAKER_03 0:36

I'm not your father. You don't you don't have to say it to me? That's fine. Remains to be seen.

SPEAKER_04 0:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 0:41

Yeah, what'd you guys do? Sarah, well, she bought tickets to see Ocean's 11 because it's the 25th anniversary in the theater. Oh, wow. So that's fun. The day before I really was like, let's go to the art institute. I haven't been there in a while. So we went to brunch and then we went down to the art institute, and it was amazing. Where was Brunch? Sorry, we gotta hit reverse there for a second. It's a place called. Oh, yeah, I like that place. A lot of gluten-free options.

SPEAKER_04 1:10

Oh wow. Really good.

SPEAKER_03 1:12

Yeah. Good to know. And the art institute was great. Yeah. There's so many monets. Yeah. I know there's a lot of monet. Yeah. At one point, the boys completely bypassed a Picasso that I wanted them to, or a Van Gogh that I wanted them to look at. And I kind of grabbed them both and I was like, hey, it was like, come, you know, I'm trying to whisper. I'm like, hey, come back here. You want to spend time here and you want to look at this, like, spend a moment. And this woman looked over at me and she said, Thanks for bringing your sons here.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

Oh, that's amazing.

SPEAKER_03 1:44

And I was like, Thank you for saying that. Yeah. And the movies were great. And they wanted to do a heist after they always want to do a heist after seeing oceans.

SPEAKER_04 1:54

Let's do a heist. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 1:55

They're like, let's go home. Do you want to do a heist? Sure.

SPEAKER_04 2:00

What do they mean by that? Like, pretend.

SPEAKER_03 2:02

Yeah, I think.

SPEAKER_04 2:05

You're like literally plan eyes.

SPEAKER_03 2:07

Rob a bank.

SPEAKER_04 2:08

Execute.

SPEAKER_03 2:09

So I'll tell you what the final product is. The final product is them getting dressed up in like jeans, whatever their most formal wear is. Oh, cute. Because they're dressed so well in those movies.

SPEAKER_04 2:25

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:26

And that plus a backpack full of random shit equals heist. Okay.

SPEAKER_04 2:34

Nice clothes backpack war like going undercover.

SPEAKER_03 2:38

You're not sharing everything you have.

SPEAKER_04 2:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:40

You don't want to, you want to be cool. And you always have to be eating, right? If you're Brad Pitt. If you're Brad Pitt, you always get Rusty. His name's Rusty in the body. Um that's what kind of what a heist is. Yeah. So I don't really know what we're doing. Yeah. But it's secret. It's a heist. Yeah. End of the day just calling my dad and and talking for a little bit.

SPEAKER_04 3:00

It was good.

SPEAKER_03 3:01

That was your father's day. Sporting it up.

SPEAKER_04 3:04

It was good. We just we celebrated

Cubs Game And Festival Culture Shock

SPEAKER_04 3:06

on Saturday. We went to a Cubs game with my dad, which was fun. Um who'd they play? They played the Blue Jays?

SPEAKER_03 3:15

Toronto.

SPEAKER_04 3:15

Yeah. I think the Blue Jays, right?

SPEAKER_03 3:17

Yeah, Toronto.

SPEAKER_04 3:18

Yeah, Toronto.

SPEAKER_03 3:19

Did Vladimir Guerrero Jr. play? Yeah. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:23

Because Josh was like, Vladimir Guerrero Jr. And he said he knows Vladimir Guerrero Sr.

SPEAKER_03 3:28

Vlad the Impaler? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 3:30

Oh, okay. I I wasn't familiar, but I'll take your word for it.

SPEAKER_03 3:35

He Sr. was one of those rare players who I don't believe used batting gloves.

SPEAKER_04 3:39

Whoa. Which was kind of which is probably unheard of now.

SPEAKER_03 3:42

It's unheard of now. Yeah. He I feel like he was one of the last of that generation to you he didn't have anything on. He would just be up there with bare hands. Wow. Like a beast. Like a beast. Yeah, it's kind of badass. Did the Cubs end up winning? Were you at the game, Kelly?

SPEAKER_04 4:03

We left early because we had tickets to the Winnecka Music Festival. Oh. Which was nice. Um, so I told my dad we we were only able to go to part of it. You only went till halftime? We went to like the seventh. We were there for the seventh inning stretch and they were winning. There was no halftime. There was I tricked. But I think I passed because I just ignored the question. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 4:26

You're like John's being.

SPEAKER_04 4:28

I did it kind of as like half the halfway point.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

Halfway point.

SPEAKER_04 4:31

Um, which we were past. But yeah, it was fun. It was really sunny, but um, it was fun. And then yeah, we went, we saw Trombone Shorty and Father John Misty and Grace Potter, and this this band that I think ultimately was a guy from Wineka who came back named PD USA.

SPEAKER_00 4:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:52

Yeah, I we weren't familiar with his music, but everyone in the crowd. Yeah. Everyone in the crowd knew like every single word. So we were like, he must be from here.

SPEAKER_03 5:01

And you know, he just kind of had that look, like he's like, he's got a good fan base that follows. Yeah, local.

SPEAKER_04 5:07

Yeah, but we liked his stuff, like it was good, and then Father Democrat was incredible. And yeah, that was really funny. You know what's funny about the Winnack Music Festival? I mean, you could imagine this having worked in Northbrook. You know, you always think like when you go to a music festival, no matter where it is, like people are gonna kind of like be in their festival garb and like vibe. This looked like a country club, genuinely. Yeah, like people had like white sweaters tied around, or like a like a pressed button down and like slacks.

SPEAKER_03 5:37

So for our international listeners, we're talking about the North Shores of Chicago.

SPEAKER_04 5:42

Chicago, which is kind of Connecticut coded, right?

SPEAKER_03 5:45

Yeah, that's sure.

SPEAKER_04 5:47

Yeah, it's got that like preppy kind of vibe.

SPEAKER_03 5:50

Madras shorts, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:51

And I was like thinking Nantucket red, yeah, yeah, yes, burnt Sienna, like everywhere.

SPEAKER_03 5:59

What's the clothing line with the whale?

SPEAKER_04 6:01

Vineyard vineyard vines that was everywhere, and like people were into the music, not as much as any other festival, but enough. There was a lot of talking during the sets where you're kind of like during Misty?

SPEAKER_03 6:15

Was it free?

SPEAKER_04 6:16

Not during him. No, it was like not free, it was expensive.

SPEAKER_03 6:20

I was I sometimes I wonder if you're at a music venue or a show that's free. People think yeah, what that means it's okay to talk then.

SPEAKER_04 6:28

Yeah, that I would understand more. It's like this was not.

SPEAKER_03 6:32

So you're like, oh, I didn't pay for it.

SPEAKER_04 6:33

It was nice in so many ways because it was really chill. People weren't like edging to get up to the front.

SPEAKER_03 6:38

But you didn't go there with your dad. No, you just left the game.

SPEAKER_04 6:41

We had bought those tickets like a long time ago, and it wasn't on Father's Day, it was the day before. It was the day before. But um, he got tickets for the Saturday game and asked us to go. Kind of a little reverse asking us to go, and we were like, you know, down to go.

SPEAKER_03 6:56

Did you have a hot dog?

SPEAKER_04 6:58

No hot dog. Did we eat anything? We didn't eat anything. I think we were saving up because we knew there was good vendors at this festival. I haven't like eaten at a Cubs game in a really long time. Josh got a couple beers, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:12

Yeah, because he's a lush. You didn't get one of those plastic bats, did you, to drink out of? No. Those things are insane. They must cost so much money and not hold that much beer.

SPEAKER_04 7:21

We went, you know what? Have you ever been? There's a Mexican restaurant right by Reelyfield called El Jardine. It's like an old school street. The food is like Unclark. It's Unclark, yeah. I might have been there then. They have like, they're like margaritas, but they're called like Bombas Locas, and they have tequila and grain alcohol in them. They're like, it's like ever clear. Wow. And if you have like one of those, you're like, you know, tripping over your shoes. Like did you go there before the game? We did go there before the date. Did you have one of those? No, I I didn't. You opted out? Yeah, opted out. So did Josh. My dad ended up getting a beer. Yeah, you got a beer there.

SPEAKER_02 7:58

Ticate.

SPEAKER_04 7:59

A tacate, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:00

Oh yeah. Can or canned. Nice. With a lime. With the lime.

SPEAKER_04 8:05

With the lime. Very summer.

SPEAKER_02 8:06

Yeah. That is summer.

SPEAKER_04 8:08

So fun.

SPEAKER_03 8:08

I drink every time. So that

Cape Fear Remake And Weekly Torture

SPEAKER_03 8:10

was all fun.

SPEAKER_04 8:10

But oh, but like, I do have some topics I'm curious your thoughts on.

SPEAKER_03 8:15

I have a lot of thoughts already. I have so many topics that I'm like, where do I even for I mean, people out there in the world look at these topics. There's all of these notes.

SPEAKER_04 8:26

Well, okay. Something Josh and I are starting with. Something that Josh and I are getting really into is that new remake of Cape Fear.

SPEAKER_03 8:33

I mean, I know you're not the biggest TV guy, but I would get into it because it's a limited series, right?

SPEAKER_04 8:39

Yeah, and it's a Javier Bar D.

SPEAKER_03 8:42

Yes, I would do that for probably I would put Javier first before that it's a limited series because he's brilliant. So good. I would definitely watch it. I have seen the original, which we talked about with Robert Mitchum.

SPEAKER_04 8:54

Yeah, what do you like the most out of the two you've seen?

SPEAKER_03 8:57

De Niro's pretty terrifying in the in the remake. That's a Scorsese film, right? If I'm not mistaken, Josh. Oh, it's Scorsese. He is extremely terrifying. Yeah. I feel like in in the remake. I don't love Nick Nolte that much. Yeah. I don't think anybody does, probably. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 9:17

Yeah, and he plays the role kind of interestingly.

SPEAKER_03 9:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 9:20

I the acting is crazy in that one.

SPEAKER_03 9:24

Yes. The wife is like the wife, nutty. The daughter, Juliet Juliet Lewis.

SPEAKER_04 9:29

Lewis.

SPEAKER_03 9:30

Juliet Lewis.

SPEAKER_04 9:31

She always gives like an unsettling kind of performance.

SPEAKER_03 9:34

Yeah, definitely. It's unsettling when Keith De Niro's like talking to her and reading from her book and at school. Oh, that scene is really, really creepy. Yeah. Old movies a lot of times don't scare me. I think it's just a byproduct of the fact that they're old movies. Yeah, and they seem kind of fake. I do think though there is an element of tension in the end of Cape Fear that is pretty palpable. And I think it still hits. Um when Robert Mitchum is in the water and he's like trying to find them on the boat. What it's not all out though. It's coming out every week. Is it all out?

SPEAKER_04 10:12

Is it all out? I think it's all out.

SPEAKER_03 10:14

Have they released it all?

SPEAKER_04 10:15

Or maybe I'm wrong.

SPEAKER_03 10:15

I feel it's all out. It is? Okay.

SPEAKER_04 10:17

Or maybe that's what we want.

SPEAKER_03 10:18

What platform is it on again? It's on Apple TV. Apple TV, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:21

And Amy Adams is in it. She's really good.

SPEAKER_03 10:24

So you're you've watched an episode?

SPEAKER_04 10:26

We have watched four episodes or three? Three.

SPEAKER_02 10:29

It's not it's not all out. We have one more. Are you already thinking? Oh and then they'll be airing weekly until July 31st, episode 10, finale. See, that's what I thought. I hadn't all come out.

unknown 10:40

Damn it.

SPEAKER_04 10:42

These like coming out slowly are torture for me. Because it's like I want to sit down and watch as many as I can.

SPEAKER_03 10:48

That's can't you embody a little bit of your childhood though in that?

SPEAKER_04 10:51

Wait a week and yeah, you know, like it's like I tell myself outside of the moment, like, oh, it's nice when things come out slowly. And like the real experiences, I'm like, I just want to watch it all.

SPEAKER_03 11:01

You can savor the episode, you can talk about it, process it.

SPEAKER_04 11:05

Yeah. I don't want to do that. I really just want to watch it because it's so compelling. It's gripping. Like you're sucked in. And Javier Bardem plays it way different than Robert De Niro did. Okay. He's a lot more like reeling you in, you know, in the Javier Bardem way.

SPEAKER_03 11:24

So he's seductive?

SPEAKER_04 11:25

Yeah. It's it's a very different character. And the story is different.

SPEAKER_03 11:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 11:29

The wife is a lawyer. Like it's they changed it. Changed it. I think I think in a they modernized it. You know, because at the time of the Nick Nolte one, it's probably way more likely the wife just like stays at home. So yeah, they like shifted things. There's two kids in the family. Okay. Patrick Wilson is the husband. Speaking of the Wanaka Film Festival, I was saying to Josh, I was like, he looks like he grew up in Wanaka. He grew up in Wanaka. He's like the Heisman. He plays the Nick Nolte character.

SPEAKER_03 11:59

He plays the Nick Nolte character. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:01

I'm kind of like really hooked. Why did I bring it up just simply because I like it? Why not? There wasn't much else.

SPEAKER_03 12:08

Bring it up.

SPEAKER_04 12:08

But yeah. Oh, okay. And another thing that I heard recently on a podcast, I was listening, I always listen to the Stradio Lab podcast, which I've maybe mentioned it's these two gay comedians who have guests on, usually who are other comedians. And the guest brings a straight topic.

SPEAKER_03 12:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 12:27

And it can basically be anything. That's kind of like the satire of it. Like one person said, like, umbrellas, you know, are straight, or like home improvement is straight, or kitchen islands are straight, or whatever. And then they'll make an argument for why it is. And it's just usually pretty funny. Yeah. They had this guest on. I wonder, I'm surprised neither of you, maybe you have heard of this podcast. It's called Band Spane.

SPEAKER_03 12:51

Band Splain?

SPEAKER_04 12:53

Yeah. And this woman, Yassi Salik, um, hosts it, and she'll do these like deep dives on bands and like talk all about them. She recently did this like 14-hour series on Madonna.

SPEAKER_03 13:05

Oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_04 13:06

Which is supposed to be so good. She Madonna, she doesn't usually do pop, she's a little more in like the rock.

SPEAKER_03 13:10

She does the artist, though, because I remember a podcast I listened to a while back called Was it Sound Exploder?

SPEAKER_04 13:17

Oh, yeah, Song Exploder.

SPEAKER_03 13:18

Song Explorer. Yeah. Yeah. And they would like to dissect a song. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 13:23

I first heard of him on the Gilmore Guys podcast. He's a huge Gilmore girls fan. Who isn't? I know. Who isn't? So I heard him like give give these like really intellectual breakdowns of like.

SPEAKER_03 13:32

That's gonna be the Sarah episode when my wife joins. That's gonna be the Gilmore.

SPEAKER_04 13:36

We really should do that. I would love to do a Gilmore episode.

SPEAKER_03 13:39

Um I'm

Are We Swapping Taste For Self

SPEAKER_03 13:40

gonna be a bump on a log on that one.

SPEAKER_04 13:42

Totally. Um, but she said this thing in the podcast that I've been thinking about since she said it. She said in 2026, like these days, people are swapping taste for a personality. And I'm thinking about it a lot with like us like decorating our new place and like moving to a new neighborhood where like there's kind of a different vibe than our old neighborhood. And like, you know, it's like the average citizen is like a little younger than they were like in Ravenswood. And it's like I'm noticing, I'm like, okay, I'm feeling this like desire to like wear different clothes, and like obviously I always feel an urge to like decorate in a new space. And I'm like, am I falling into this where it's like I think that like my taste is somehow my personality? It was like a good reality check. What do you think of that idea?

SPEAKER_03 14:33

I think I need to understand more of what that means.

SPEAKER_04 14:37

If you have like good taste in restaurants or like you know a lot about travel or decor or whatever, or or clothes or anything, or even like music, like that is your personality. So you're like one-dimensional, yeah. Or I think it's like I know that in like that movie High Fidelity, he he's like, it's not what you are like, it's what you like. The stuff matters, the stuff matters. So like there's a part of me that it really is true that like what you like is often like things that reflect that like internal space. Sure. But then like, where does that become? I I know hearing that statement, I was like, oh man, like I've definitely fallen into that where it's like I'll think that stuff like is part of my identity in a way that is probably not healthy, you know?

SPEAKER_03 15:34

Mm-hmm. I don't know. I think I'm maybe still struggling with the concept of it. Maybe I have no personality or taste.

SPEAKER_04 15:42

Well, no, like what are things that you feel like you have good taste in?

unknown 15:48

Good taste.

SPEAKER_04 15:49

Quote unquote good taste. Yeah, as a judgment. Um people? People, like you're gonna like reading people.

SPEAKER_03 15:58

Reading people, knowing who's got a good sense of humor, yeah, and who's gonna like get it. Right. Like I can pretty quickly suss that out. Yeah. Who's not gonna get it? Whatever it is, it's a large thing, and I'm pretty quick to be like, you're I'm moving on to the next person in the party. Yeah. I mean, sure, like food, some music.

SPEAKER_04 16:20

Yeah, music, like I think you probably I think of you as someone with good taste in music. You know a lot about music. So it's almost like not as much, but and you've probably met people where it's like that's their whole personality, like their taste in music.

SPEAKER_03 16:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:36

And that's like me, but you know, like you could probably fall into it the way I could fall into it, where it's like feeling an anxiety around like getting the thing that I want. Like, I really want this new rug for our room, and I'm going to get it. But I haven't ordered it yet, and it's like there is a feeling of like I'm not complete until it's here. I'll I'll be most fully me or something when I have all the things that reflect, quote unquote, reflect me. And I think it's like, you know, Kelly, like maybe it doesn't even really matter what's in your home, and like you can live as your most authentic self.

SPEAKER_03 17:14

And taste is replacing personality.

SPEAKER_04 17:16

Yes, that's what she's saying.

SPEAKER_03 17:18

I see.

SPEAKER_04 17:19

And and I think this, of course, like everything, is a function of the 2D social media platforms.

SPEAKER_03 17:25

So is it like people are because they don't know how to be a well-rounded person, they have to like latch on to things or to like I I don't I don't even know if you're not.

SPEAKER_04 17:35

I'm struggling with this.

SPEAKER_03 17:36

Maybe I just have to listen to the episode.

SPEAKER_04 17:37

I'm struggling with the concept well, like well-rounded. I almost think it's like because the internet, if you take like TikTok, which is probably like the main modern social media, the TikTok page is like you talk straight to camera about a thing, and that's the focus. Whereas like a lot of real social interaction, like the thing is secondary. Well, to me, is secondary to the connection, the actual, like, like we talked about last week, the energy built between two people. Because like social media, like, you know, it's like it takes all the ingredients, but doesn't like create the alchemy. People are mistaking, like, oh, because I have like a curated apartment that says something about who I am. When really it's like, no, you just like spent a lot on your apartment and made careful choices there. And it isn't your personality to have a nice home.

SPEAKER_03 18:30

Right. Maybe it's not an apples to apples comparison. I feel like sometimes people's personalities are like having a hot take on everything or having a and that's the personality they embody. Yeah. Or they always are the contrarian to the to what's being said. They they can't be agreeable or to like something that a lot of people like that goes against their uniqueness. Right. You know, mediocre bands have good albums. It's okay to like or it's okay to like an album that gets played on the radio a lot. Yeah, there's nothing wrong with that.

SPEAKER_04 19:07

In a way, what it boils down to is like it's like some version of like usually trying to be cool as opposed to like being authentic. I think that's the difference. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:16

They were kind of arguing. Yeah, it's like your taste in things kind of defines who you are. Yeah. That's sure.

SPEAKER_04 19:22

I'm glad they named it. It's pretty hollow. And it's like they were talking about how like being cool is the most important thing right now in like the social media driven world. And what does that even mean though?

SPEAKER_03 19:34

Well, maybe it's so subjective. Well, totally.

SPEAKER_04 19:37

Well, now it feels like it's less because the world is both like widened and flattened.

SPEAKER_03 19:43

Yeah, there's there was some article on my newsfeed. I I sh guess I should have read it. I didn't know we were gonna talk about this, but I think it was something about its taste is being kind of like fed to us through these through AI and all this stuff now. Like we're being just kind of told what taste is.

SPEAKER_04 19:59

It's like rinse and repeat everything.

SPEAKER_03 20:01

And so people don't really develop a true sense of what they do like.

SPEAKER_04 20:05

Yeah. Well, you almost could say the whole like geese thing falls into this category.

SPEAKER_03 20:11

Right. The algorithm to make people to make them really popular.

SPEAKER_04 20:14

Yeah, the marketing team they hired, and like I mean, uh who people hire marketing teams, whatever, but like the way they fed it to the algorithm. Especially because they kind of are supposed they present as this like kind of grassroots, shaggy, indie band that had all this corporate power beneath it.

SPEAKER_03 20:37

The way the technology is, you just can't replicate the fishes of the world. Like it just you know, you can get a following probably, but it's not gonna be we're grinding it out and we really are touring non-stop, and then you really build a following. Yeah. Like, I don't know, fish was the first. It was top of mind because we talked about fish last week, but yeah, not in the pod. But it's like they didn't have social media, so they were that is kind of they built this thing.

SPEAKER_04 21:06

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:08

They didn't have help in the right kind of algorithm department. Right. There was no such thing.

SPEAKER_04 21:14

I know, it's like it's just so hard. Like, I don't like things being fed to us so much, and yeah. Or like this, I I fall into this. I think that's what's most unsettling, is it's like I will sometimes think like being cool is like the most important thing at in certain moments, and it's sort of like A, what does that even mean?

SPEAKER_03 21:35

What does it mean? And how do you know if people think it about you? Yeah. But you don't you don't?

SPEAKER_04 21:44

God, it's like you just want to give that up. I do. I think it's so dumb. I don't want to fall into this. So maybe that's my commitment. Stop trying to be cool. But I am still gonna obviously decorate our apartment, but maybe. Maybe I'll be less like psycho about it.

SPEAKER_03 22:02

Well, who are you decorating it for?

SPEAKER_04 22:05

I mean, that is a good question. Because in some ways it's for us.

SPEAKER_03 22:11

Is it form over function? Is it function over form? Is it aesthetic? Function over form.

SPEAKER_04 22:18

It's aesthetic. Well, it's like I want it to be cute and cozy and chic.

SPEAKER_03 22:23

Cute, cozy.

SPEAKER_04 22:24

Chic is a French word for cool.

SPEAKER_03 22:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 22:27

Basically. Stylish. But it's like I Josh said to me, like, just it kind of in passing, he was like, you know, I don't really love our room just yet. Which makes sense. There's literally still boxes in it. You know, but I really like took that to heart and I was like, okay, I really want my husband to like love our bedroom. You know, like I want that to feel like a safe haven. So I was like, okay, like really started to obsess about it. That felt more like pure, actually, because it's my husband. It's like someone I yeah, love and care about. Most of the time, uh, it's like a little bit me I'm decorating for, but sometimes it is like an imagined person visiting who I think is cool. And then being like, your style's so cool. Which has like never happened to me. But yeah, there's clearly like a fantasy there.

SPEAKER_03 23:19

You want that.

SPEAKER_04 23:20

Yeah. Yeah. And then it's like I should follow that, where it's like, what, what then? You know, someone thinks I'm cool. It almost it's weird as we're saying this, it almost feels like then I'm safe. Like how you said, like, I I would like to meet someone and suss out if they like get it. I want people to see me as someone who like gets it.

SPEAKER_03 23:41

Yeah. But the thing with that is you already know it.

SPEAKER_04 23:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:45

And so you would be satisfied with just knowing it's cool because it works for you. And the cherry on top is when somebody comes in and says it, right? Totally.

SPEAKER_04 23:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:55

So then it really doesn't even matter if you get that feedback or not, because you know it's cool for you.

SPEAKER_04 24:00

To me.

SPEAKER_03 24:00

Right?

SPEAKER_04 24:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:01

And then that moment when that person says it, then you're like, exactly, you get it.

SPEAKER_04 24:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:06

You know, you see what I'm going for here. You're or threading the needle.

SPEAKER_04 24:09

It doesn't matter though. Like, if someone thinks I get it, if someone sees me as like she's cool, she gets it. Like, or if they don't.

SPEAKER_03 24:19

No, but it's nice to get a compliment.

SPEAKER_04 24:22

No, I'm I'm fully aware of that, but I think I need to pump up the other side where I notice like what's going on when maybe I'm I sense that someone doesn't see me as like someone who gets it. Like someone walks in here and they're like, okay. Mm-hmm. What's there for me?

SPEAKER_03 24:39

Maybe they don't value interior design.

SPEAKER_04 24:42

Right.

SPEAKER_03 24:43

It's probably more about them than it is about you.

SPEAKER_04 24:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:45

Or if they don't notice something in your apartment that you spent a lot of time on.

SPEAKER_04 24:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:49

It might just be they don't.

SPEAKER_04 24:51

Honestly, those people, it wouldn't bother me. It's more like someone who did value it having like a non-reaction. I think in that case, this made-up scenario.

SPEAKER_03 25:00

This made up scenario.

SPEAKER_04 25:01

If someone didn't like my place and maybe they were like an interior designer, let's say. It would probably on some level mean because they're snobby. And it's funny that I want to be like connected to that. When I say that, my wise mind doesn't want to be connected to that. You know, it wants to have some separation from someone who and I don't go into someone's home that isn't decorated well and think anything negative about them. Sure. I really don't. Like I'm I'm honestly often relieved. Like, or I admire that it's like they don't care about this stuff, they don't get caught up in it. How nice. I guess if it were like crazy disorganized, I might be like, what's going on with this person? But it doesn't bother me. Yeah, it's like a high school vibe, you know, or like I want to be safe and like in the group, so I'm not vulnerable or something, not seen as like uncool.

SPEAKER_03 25:57

I'll have to listen to the episode. Yeah. Taste as personality.

SPEAKER_04 26:01

Yeah. You do you like Stradia Lab?

SPEAKER_03 26:03

I love Stradia Lab. They're so funny. I'm sure. It's a funny thing.

SPEAKER_04 26:07

Oh my god, they actually did an episode where they're like 20 summer, like summer takes or something. They said city we're all traveling to in the summer, Chicago. They're like, Chicago is like secretly the best city. And they like went on and on about it, which I love.

SPEAKER_03 26:24

That's great. Chicago is amazing in the summer. Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_04 26:28

I know the summer tricks people into moving here.

SPEAKER_03 26:30

It does.

SPEAKER_04 26:31

And then it's like nine months away.

SPEAKER_03 26:33

Nine months out of the year, they're suffering.

SPEAKER_04 26:34

Yeah, totally. But it is great in the summer, and we really have to save right. We're in summer now.

Why Some Women Choose Male Therapists

SPEAKER_03 26:40

We're in it.

SPEAKER_04 26:40

Okay, let's get into our topic already. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:44

So reveal, I we're coming in half knowing, half not knowing. So we try to prepare something where we both know what we're coming into. In this instance, you know it, you read it, and you're springing in on me having not read or researched anything.

SPEAKER_04 27:02

Yes. Well, I figure this will help me explain it fully to you and thus fully to the audience.

SPEAKER_03 27:07

Perfect.

SPEAKER_04 27:08

So this is an article in The New Yorker. No, not in the New Yorker. What am I saying? New York magazine. New York Magazine. The Cut specifically. By Megan O'Connell. Um, and she the title of the article. Wait, now I don't have to be.

SPEAKER_03 27:23

Are we looking it up?

SPEAKER_04 27:24

I want to get the official title, but basically what it's about is women interviewed talked about the benefits of having a male therapist. And I thought it was super interesting. My daughter Bigelface.

SPEAKER_03 27:38

The benefits of having a male therapist.

SPEAKER_04 27:40

The benefits of having a male therapist. Why would you pay to talk to a man?

SPEAKER_03 27:45

Which when when you sent me because I didn't know the title of it, yeah. I thought it was a little bit more cheeky.

SPEAKER_04 27:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:52

Like saying, don't go to a male.

SPEAKER_04 27:55

Oh, oh, oh, no. No. But it's cheeky in that, like, what the hell would you pay to talk to a man? And then they actually get into it.

SPEAKER_03 28:01

I see. Yeah. That's the way I inter I read the title of it, where I thought that's though I didn't read the article, that that's where it was going. Like, why would you spend money talking to a man? Yeah. Like, why bother doing it?

SPEAKER_04 28:13

Yeah. And really these people are going to tell you why. Okay. And it was pretty interesting. It wasn't things I had considered so consciously, but I like what they mentioned. So, like the article begins with this woman. I think she's like a black woman in her 30s who's long-term dating a white partner, white male partner. And they live in the Portland area. And she's kind of saying, like, you know, I'm navigating kind of this, like starting a long-term relationship and heading toward marriage and this big transition in my life. So of course, like I need to see a therapist. And she, you know, immediately set about looking for like a black female therapist around her age, as like the the research shows most people do. They said most people want a therapist who's a lot like them, but slightly older. That's like what most people want in a therapist, which is an interesting question for us to cover too, or idea. But she's in the Portland area. So there were like weren't a lot of black female therapists. You know, those therapists in that area are really underrepresented and underrepresented in general, therapists of color. So she ended up getting like maybe referred to this man named Robert. And she wound up like finding the experience really illuminating in a way that like it would have been a lot, she assumes it would have been a lot different and was different than other therapy experiences she had. And so some of the things she said, she said she felt it was really helpful to get his perspective on dating. She kind of felt like my partner's a white man. Like some of these like distorted thoughts I have, like having them challenged by a white man was more powerful for her. She's like, it wouldn't be the case for everyone. But for me, it felt like she even says in the article, they say this, you know, like there's all this hetero-pessimism in culture right now, kind of like men or dogs kind of thing. And you know, she's like, I felt it feels a little bit like in the dating space, you're kind of like, How did she put it? Wait, oh, it was a way to discuss your relationship issues with the enemy, you know, like to really get the chance. And she said, Who better to talk about your daddy issues than someone who kind of reminds you of your dad? Sure. And I was like, I that was the only time I've ever thought about like a male therapist. I'm like, you know, like it is helpful. Like I've seen three women as therapists. Like, I would be curious about a man's perspective or like how I might relate in that space. And and it's so interesting that she found that to be really helpful. Yeah. And a lot of women even well, something powerful that she said was like one thing that it did was it forced me to find the words to describe things that the male therapist hadn't ever experienced, like certain pregnancy experiences or even body image struggles. This came up a lot because you know, like she was like, if you tell another woman, like I have kind of mixed feelings about my body, like a lot of women's response is like, well, duh. But she said her male therapist like really pushed her to articulate it, and they really delved into those feelings and looked for where she felt them in places other than her body. And she was like, he wouldn't take things for granted because they weren't his experience, right? So there was almost like this observer quality that was really preserved there, like almost like anthropological.

SPEAKER_03 31:47

Yes, totally.

SPEAKER_04 31:48

And she found that like it was a really powerful challenge to her own thinking, and it asked like a lot of her. And I really I was struck by that. And the article pushes a lot, like consider gender more directly in therapy, like as a client, as a therapist, like it is an important thing to be aware of and how it affects the relationship, like for us as therapists, and not to say, like, oh, if I'm a man, like I need to like self-deprecate about that. It can actually, in some cases, and some issues, be an asset to be outside of someone's issue and ask them to explain it to you.

SPEAKER_03 32:34

Sure.

SPEAKER_04 32:35

Because it's like, how do you how do you truly understand anything? You can turn to the person next to you and explain it. It's not like you just have some internal sense of it.

SPEAKER_03 32:45

It's interesting to think about how we use language to describe our experience when we're in the therapy experience. Yeah. I again, I didn't read the article. If we take shortcuts that we're not aware of because of who our therapist is. Yeah. Yeah. So if we're maybe not aware, if I'm working with a male therapist, am I not describing my experience to its fullest extent?

SPEAKER_00 33:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:12

Or being as objective as maybe I could be. Not that I have to be all the time in therapy. Somewhere in me, I'm thinking he's a man, he gets it, or heteronormative, like he's white, he's married. We've taught, you know, I know certain things about him. And then maybe I don't go as deep as maybe I should or could.

SPEAKER_04 33:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:35

Don't you think it's almost like a trope, though, of having a male therapist as the paternal father Freud E figure? And it's a little cringy. I like that this article is exploring it in maybe there could be some benefits.

SPEAKER_04 33:51

Well, yeah, that's what they said at the beginning of the article. Like, once upon a time, the only option really was a man. A man. And now it's like the field is totally flipped where it's female dominated, which is wonderful. Like, so many identities are reflected in that. But you know, like there might be a different like space for men. Or not even like space for men. I almost thought of it more like don't assume that your differences from a client are gonna hurt the therapy. They might help it.

SPEAKER_03 34:22

They might help.

SPEAKER_04 34:23

And the more aware you are of like not overrelating and like you said, like resting on shorthand that isn't gonna help them bring something to a real awareness and change it if they want to. It's like pushing your client and yourself sometimes to really like articulate what's going on.

SPEAKER_03 34:43

Yeah. And I think the onus is to be a good therapist, and when you don't know something, ask them. Yeah. And be very curious. Right. And I don't think it would be too far of a stretch to say some therapists maybe are not as curious as they could be. Yeah, right. About certain experiences. Like, tell me more about that. Or thinking that because they took a CEU on body image issues, that they really know what that means for a person sitting across from you who is a certain, you know, race, gender, right? Like, but tell me about your experience with that. I'd really be curious about that. Yeah, like it sounds like maybe this person's therapist was, which is a great quality in a therapist to have.

SPEAKER_04 35:24

Well, you bring up such a good point too, like because this client could totally talk about like race, racial issues, race in therapy. And I do think there could be value in exactly this dynamic she's naming, which is you've experienced racism by just being a black person in this world all the time, of course. You can both like really honor the ubiquity of that and the tragedy of that, and also like really ask them like, can you talk to me about your experiences of it and help them find deeper healing by really going there? Yeah. And it might maybe it could be easier to like brush over it a little if if the therapist had experienced that stuff too. Possibly, possibly not. Possibly they would have a better framework in many cases, having experienced it themselves. But it's I like the lens, and it's very non-judgmental, right? Like these women found there were a couple women, one main character in this, but that found, you know, an unexpected joy in it and like real healing from it. Yeah. Like what did she say? She I like when they quote her because she seems so funny. You know, she was like moving toward marrying her partner, and her therapist is like, what makes you want to get married? And it sounds like this robber guy was just like a good therapist in general, no, aside from just being a man. But you know, he was like, What makes you want to get married? And she's like, I want to feel chosen. Like, I really want she's like, is that embarrassing? Like, is that bad? He's like, I think that's a really common thing. But you know, getting married is gonna be about your choosing too. And she just writes, damn Robert. You know, like he probably it seems like he's like an older white guy with some like gravitas, and maybe that hit her differently. And she wasn't like shoved into some gender role. Like he really pushed her to notice like you're gonna have to be doing, you're gonna have to choose your partner every day. He said that, which I I liked that he kind of gave her that, and also validated like it's okay to want to be chosen and and to want that. I really like this idea. And I when I think about the reverse, like my work with male clients, I was it's obviously different, you know, because and they say this in the article, like a lot of people like stereotype women as like nurturing, you know. So most people prefer a female therapist research shows. How can I both like notice that and maybe like not rest on my gender in a way? Like do what might be less natural, or maybe like do what I might think of a stereotypical male therapist doing. One of these Freudian guys with elbow patches, like, are there times I can push? And I've definitely done that, you know, like clients like using certain shorthand as men, you know how it is, kind of like someone saying someone saying that to me, right? Like, you get it, and maybe like I'm actually gonna ask you to explain that to me because I'm not a man, right? And doing that with my female clients too, like in a way, it's another blank slate type of thing, or like leaning toward that a little. Is your therapist a man? Yes, so yeah, what makes pick a man, an older man?

SPEAKER_03 38:47

Okay, that's been a struggle for me my whole life, I think, is finding like male spaces where, and even now being therapists, people will come to me and say, Oh, we would really want this person to be in your group or work with you because you're a male and yeah, they've had so much toxic masculinity in their life, and you're able to be in touch with your emotions, right? Like all of those things. And I think I was maybe struggling throughout my life to find really solid like spaces where there were strong men who were strong in a different type of way, they were strong in the ability to access their emotions and like talk about their emotions because I was I was always very thirsty for that as a kid, and and I just don't know if I ever felt like that need was met as much as I would like. So I think that that's another reason why I gravitated towards a male therapist because it I feel like I long for that kind of connection. Yeah. And and my best friends are there's not many of them, but the my strongest relationships with guys, I mean, Tommy was on the podcast are guys that are able to emote and able to talk about that stuff. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:59

So yeah, integrated in like the masculine and feminine. Right. Totally.

SPEAKER_03 40:04

But I think even when people refer patients or clients, there's always a common theme too of like uh somebody diagnosed with borderline.

SPEAKER_00 40:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:14

Having more of a strong male figure to attach to because a lot of research indicates some sort of rift in the relationship between fathers and daughters. Yeah. Um, or an absent father or right, and not that that's the only thing, but um, so having that quote unquote stable male figure can can maybe help the therapeutic process. Yeah. Um yeah. So that's maybe kind of a stereotype or something that gets thrown around. I mean, it can be effective.

SPEAKER_04 40:44

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_03 40:45

But also it's like those are the two things I hear a lot of. You're a male therapist. This male client would be great to work with because they struggle with their emotions. You would be able to provide them a space to maybe teach them how to do that or access that in the therapy space. Yeah. Or maybe a more borderline type female patient who needs some sort of like reparative, corrective experience with an older father-y type figure.

SPEAKER_04 41:13

Yeah, like I I bet with a lot of cases of like borderline or complex PTSD, I that makes sense that the research might bear out that there's like some kind of father kind of rupture. It almost makes me think like everybody, you know, and I'm being binary with this. Like, I think it would be incredibly interesting to have a non-binary therapist or a trans therapist, which the article also mentioned or they're like very underrepresented in the field. You know, like it to have like a therapist of like all genders at some point in your life could be really interesting.

SPEAKER_00 41:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 41:46

I do think it would be really interesting to see a male therapist. I really like my current therapist, so it's not like I want to not work with her, but I do think it might bring up important stuff, like you're saying, and something interesting they mentioned in the article was like the one place where a lot of women will seek out a male therapist, is in couples work in these heterosexual couples. A lot of times women will be afraid that a female therapist will side too much with them and then they won't really get anywhere.

SPEAKER_03 42:17

Oh.

SPEAKER_04 42:18

So they end up seeking out a man.

SPEAKER_03 42:22

I I would think that the whoever the person is, if it's more of a heteronormative relationship, would want, like, if I'm the man, I would want a man. Or if I'm, you know, I feel like that would that would be the way it would kind of like Yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_04 42:36

Who the women they interviewed, I think were realizing like maybe their preference was a woman and that itself was a problem. And they were kind of trying to correct that and get their partner more on board and have these, must have been like somewhat conscious people seeking couples' work. And then one woman mentioned that like seeing um a male therapist who actually really called out her partner, and it was like pretty illuminating. She's like, This isn't just in my head,

Transference, Power, And Therapist Fit

SPEAKER_04 43:05

like this stuff is problematic. Yes, and then there was some dissent. Like, there was one example. This is of course an anecdote, but one woman had seen a male psychoanalyst. She mentioned that at some point the therapist got really now. I don't know the context. So it's like there could be so much else here. Sure. But in the article she mentioned, he kept kind of repeatedly suggesting that she was flirting with him. Then she would say, like, I'm I'm really not. And then they would spend the session in silence. Like after that was said, and that happened for like three whole sessions. I was like, Well, this is an extreme example. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:48

I found that careful with the analysts.

SPEAKER_04 43:52

Yeah, careful.

SPEAKER_03 43:53

It's I think just careful, careful, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 43:55

It can be incredible that method, but I think I'm sure, I mean, there's Bad analysts there, of course. And yeah, yeah. And it interesting comes from a little bit more, yeah, a little bit more of a paternalistic model, but I think a lot of those have been updated too. But any kind of like sexual transference, meaning any, you know, feelings of like a client having a crush on their therapist or whatever, you know, it could happen with any client of any gender, right? You know, no matter your orientation, like there can be feelings of a crush. And if you think of yourself as straight and you have a female therapist and you're a woman, you know, all these things, but it is it definitely can feel with my straight male clients, me as a straight female, like it's something you before even meeting a client, you might wonder about or be more aware of that possibility and that energy. And I tend to often feel uncomfortable at the idea. And like it's a kind of transference that can be really hard to explore ethically and safely. So yeah, that, and then this woman brought that up. So I was like, that is very interesting.

SPEAKER_01 45:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 45:01

She wrote it as he accused me of of flirting with him. I wonder if he was kind of therapeutically putting it out there because he genuinely felt some vibe. Maybe, yeah. But yeah, it was definitely a pretty interesting case. Right?

SPEAKER_03 45:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 45:15

Yeah. But like I like this consideration of gender in this creative way.

SPEAKER_03 45:21

What would it be like to get maybe someone who has very different life experiences given the identities that make them up?

SPEAKER_04 45:29

Right.

SPEAKER_03 45:30

And how that could move the therapy in a lot of different directions, I think is certainly something that we could ponder.

SPEAKER_04 45:37

Totally.

SPEAKER_03 45:37

But if you really wanted to find a provider, probably that's very like you, and there's nothing wrong with that. You can do that too.

SPEAKER_04 45:44

You can, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:45

This person probably could have done that, and they still chose to move forward with it. So yeah.

SPEAKER_04 45:50

They gave it a chance. They gave it a chance. Yeah, and they were really pleasantly surprised. Pleasantly surprised, it sounds like good old Robert. I want to meet Robert.

SPEAKER_03 45:57

I want to meet Robert too.

SPEAKER_04 45:58

Yeah. One of the therapists interviewed under a pseudonym was from Chicago. Oh, really? I sure that was interesting. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:04

That is interesting.

SPEAKER_04 46:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:05

See, I I think of a therapist has for some reason my mind always goes to somebody who is older than me and just has a very, I guess this isn't anything new, but just a very warm, whether it's man, woman, doesn't matter, but just a very warm, almost wise parental kind of vibe. That's always something that attracts me to a therapist is like having this essence of rugged lived experience, but with a warmth to it and and yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_04 46:40

That's funny that you say that because actually when I think of my two main therapists, like my first therapist, Vim shout out to Vimmy, she was great, but it definitely felt more like an on-ramp. And she was really kind and warm and validating. And it felt like her office was so far downtown, it was it was like very hard to get there.

SPEAKER_03 46:57

Right.

SPEAKER_04 46:58

And my second therapist was like convinced there were other reasons that I left, and I'm like, you don't know how busy these intersections were, and how they're like the parking was a nightmare. But um my second therapist who I had for years, Melissa. And I don't think she'd have a problem with me saying this. Like, I I would not call her warm. She was fair and like really smart, really wise, helped me so much. She almost gave me like a stability, I think I needed. And definitely she could give pretty tough feedback and reflecting. And my therapist now is very kind and it's very healing. Not that I think there was anything wrong with the experience with Melissa, I actually think I needed both. Yeah, but I gotta tell you, I've even said this to Josh like sometimes going in there and like the the degree to which she will tell me like what you're feeling is entirely valid around this thing, and let's make some space for that because that is hard. And she means it, and I can feel that. It's like God, it feels so good. Yeah, it's healing, it's so healing, and it it was good to have two different chapters, like one where I didn't really get that, and I had to really kind of like question a lot of ways that I was handling things and and grow to now where like validation is not even the right word in this case. It feels like she's seeing me, sure, and not trying to like judge it or even like yeah, critique it. It's like just sight.

SPEAKER_03 48:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 48:40

And then of course we do the EMDR. So it's like there's so much letting me in my mind like gather up the stuff and creating a container. You know, maybe one day if I can't work with her at some point, I will go see a man.

SPEAKER_03 48:53

I think it could be interesting. Maybe I'll go see a woman.

SPEAKER_04 48:56

Yeah. Because you've never seen a woman.

SPEAKER_03 48:58

I was trying, as we were having this conversation, I was like, there's there's gotta be someone like a therapist that I've seen. And I don't think so. I mean, I've been on and off with my current therapist for so long. Yeah, I was trying to think prior to that, and I I really couldn't think of anybody because the psychologist I worked with prior to, like in high school and stuff, was a man. Yeah, I I don't think I have. Yeah, so that would be a new experience.

SPEAKER_04 49:31

Totally. We'll have to swap, we'll just swap our we'll swap our therapists out.

SPEAKER_03 49:36

We'll just have a Zoom call with all four of us and we can just do some intros. Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_04 49:40

And Josh, you you've only seen women.

SPEAKER_03 49:43

Three women, three women, three women like the book.

SPEAKER_02 49:46

Yeah. Oh, was that um I think that's a um Robert Altman movie?

SPEAKER_04 49:50

Oh, nice. I love it. But yeah, would you ever see a man in the future?

SPEAKER_02 49:54

I would for the sake of argument, for the sake of shaking things up. Yeah. I think men scare me.

SPEAKER_04 50:02

Yeah. Well, a lot of people like uh in the article really mentioned like it's just more comfortable the idea of like sharing your bearing your soul to a woman. But that's exactly why to do it with a man can be healing.

SPEAKER_03 50:14

I think what that's also funny too, because there is like a sometimes people will will say to me things like, well, they could work with you because like you know, you're a man and you're not like a weird therapist. Like there's almost like a connotation that male therapists are weird sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 50:31

Yes, yeah. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 50:32

Have you have you encountered that? Not like encountered weird male therapists, but there's like some something out there about where people will almost preface it or say, Well, of course, like you, or even like private practice. Somebody was like, John, you should you know get into your get into private practice because there's not a lot of male therapists out there, and you'd crush it because you're like you're not weird or anything. And it's like, what does that mean? Yeah, the weird male therapist. I know what you're is it like a guidance counselor vibe or something?

SPEAKER_04 51:05

I don't well it's funny, it's like guidance counselor. When you say guidance counselor, I think of like, do you remember in freaks and geeks, like guidance counselor with the long hair? Right, like kind of like hippie-ish, like, yeah, just love each other. Like, I I think of that a little bit with guidance counselor, but like I definitely know the type where it's like there's so many male therapists these days that are not like this.

SPEAKER_03 51:25

Yeah, and maybe this is a little bit dated.

SPEAKER_04 51:27

Well, then again, there also are some that are like this, where it's like they kind of always have a therapist voice. Okay, sure. We've talked about that before, and like yeah, I mean, but it but it falls in line with like, and this is online discourse too, like the performative making.

SPEAKER_03 51:44

The performative, yeah, the overembodiment of this is who I am at all times, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 51:50

And like trying to be woke a little pathologically, sure, you know, and that is weird, and it's a little weird. I think we could feel I I think what people are picking up on is maybe some of them being inauthentic, and there are plenty that are authentic, and there are plenty of female therapists or non-binary therapists or whatever that are not authentic, and plenty that are.

SPEAKER_03 52:12

But I just never have heard she's a great therapist, and she's not weird, you know.

SPEAKER_04 52:17

Right. People wouldn't say that.

SPEAKER_03 52:19

They wouldn't say that they would more say it about a man, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 52:23

And they're not saying creepy, right?

SPEAKER_03 52:26

Just weird, weird, that's usually the term is like weird, weird. Maybe I have heard the creepy, not a creepy. So maybe it goes back to the idea of the analyst, the Freudian thing, too. Like totally, you know, those types of things.

SPEAKER_04 52:41

Well, Freud and Young were some of the weirdest people. I mean, just weird, and they would own that, right?

SPEAKER_03 52:47

Yeah, so anyway, okay.

Friday Off Or Monday Off

SPEAKER_04 52:49

Well, maybe we'll move into our how wise isn't our how wise is a question, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:53

Yeah, this is a little bit of a almost either or type of question. Yeah, which is more wise, which is more wise, and we're talking about long weekends. So, which is more wise? A long weekend that is Friday, Saturday, Sunday, so taking off Friday, or Saturday, Sunday, and taking off Monday.

SPEAKER_04 53:13

Yeah, yeah. So this is almost like, oh, we're planning a trip to Michigan to see Josh's family. We're gonna take a day off. Do we choose Friday? Do we choose Friday? Or a staycation, or even a staycation.

SPEAKER_03 53:24

It doesn't even have to be travel.

SPEAKER_04 53:25

You don't have to travel, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:26

Any way you're spending a long weekend, which one is more wise? You said you had thoughts.

SPEAKER_04 53:32

I have no idea. I think it's you've choose Friday all the way.

SPEAKER_03 53:36

Really?

SPEAKER_04 53:37

All the way.

SPEAKER_03 53:38

Really?

SPEAKER_04 53:39

I mean, Monday is Sunday is scary, and then Monday. It's like you have two Sundays basically. Sunday's scary. As opposed to two Saturdays. Wow. Kind of.

SPEAKER_03 53:52

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 53:52

Two Fridays. Thursday's the Friday, and then Friday's a Saturday, and Saturday's a Saturday, and then Sunday's a Sunday.

SPEAKER_03 53:58

Saturday's a Saturday. I think I was in a band called Saturday's a Saturday.

SPEAKER_04 54:02

Friday's a Saturday, and Saturday's a Saturday.

SPEAKER_03 54:04

Interesting.

SPEAKER_04 54:05

I'm a Saturday gal, so I'm always gonna try to get more of a Saturday feeling.

SPEAKER_03 54:09

You're always gonna try to get more of a Saturday feeling.

SPEAKER_04 54:12

Totally.

SPEAKER_03 54:13

And Sunday could never be a Saturday feeling.

SPEAKER_04 54:16

Absolutely not. Sunday is so Sunday. Sunday.

SPEAKER_01 54:20

It's so Sunday. It can't be anything but a Sunday.

SPEAKER_04 54:23

It can't be anything but pain.

SPEAKER_01 54:26

Even if you have Monday off.

SPEAKER_04 54:27

Isn't it funny that it's like it's like in Christianity, like the holiest day? Like maybe that's why I have such bad things. It's more like school or work is coming the next day.

SPEAKER_03 54:38

So, okay, let me play devil's advocate here. Doesn't sometimes even when you're working on Friday feel just different and a little bit lighter? Oh, yeah. Monday always feels like Monday at work. There's never a Monday where I go into work and I'm like, oh, this is gonna be breezy. Like it always feels like Monday.

unknown 55:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 55:03

So the devil's advocate to it would be you're already at Tuesday. And Friday, sometimes you phone it in a little bit. Totally. You leave it, you cut out a little bit early on a Friday anyway.

SPEAKER_04 55:14

Yeah, I end my day early, but it's funny because I think I'm sharpest on my Fridays because I'm like you're we're almost there.

SPEAKER_03 55:20

You're amped up.

SPEAKER_04 55:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 55:21

So it's almost like, well, Friday is more digestible as a workday than a Monday is. So I'm gonna take Monday off.

SPEAKER_04 55:29

This is an interesting perspective.

SPEAKER_03 55:32

And I'm already at Tuesday then. Kind of like I I'm gonna have a four-day week. I would rather have a four-day week without the Monday.

SPEAKER_04 55:40

You would see I the Monday would feel different to me if I knew I was only taking this train to Thursday. Okay.

unknown 55:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 55:48

Like, listen, Kelly, Monday Sh Monday. It's not even a Monday.

SPEAKER_03 55:52

The good news is no matter which one you choose, everybody wins. Because a three-day weekend is so good.

SPEAKER_04 55:57

We're kind of making the same argument. We are because you're like, Monday always feels like Monday. And I'm like, yeah, so whether you're off or working, it's just gonna feel like Monday.

SPEAKER_03 56:05

So just like be at work. Just be at work.

SPEAKER_04 56:08

Friday. Thursday's gonna feel like Friday more easily than Monday is gonna feel like Sunday.

SPEAKER_02 56:15

Tuesday, shmoose. Shmoo.

SPEAKER_04 56:18

Tuesday, yeah. It's like Tuesday should be.

SPEAKER_03 56:22

You don't feel like you could embody though, and I get you don't feel like you could embody full fun on a Sunday.

SPEAKER_04 56:31

I've done it.

SPEAKER_03 56:33

If it was sandwiched between two days off. Because it's just always got that vibe of it's Sunday. It just never take Saturday.

SPEAKER_04 56:44

I think it's like it's definitely gotten close to Saturday. But I think in my mind I'm always like, that's Sunday. I don't know what that is. Maybe it's because when I was younger, well, it's programming.

SPEAKER_03 56:56

But also we've been programmed that Sunday just yeah, it's the end.

SPEAKER_04 57:00

Yeah, and it's kind of like a family day.

SPEAKER_03 57:05

Definitely.

SPEAKER_04 57:07

And I think when I was young, I was like, I like the friend days, you know. Sure. I mean, I like I love my family, but you know, it's like you're forced to be around your family so much as a kid, and like your friends, it's like that's the thing that's more precarious, and yeah, you really want to be with your friends and fit in with them. And I was way more easily able to be with friends. I mean, I would go to my grandma's every Sunday, you know, kind of rain or shine.

SPEAKER_03 57:31

I think push comes a shove. I would probably do the Friday, Saturday, Sunday as well. I do think though, there are some real reasons why it would be wise to take off Monday.

SPEAKER_04 57:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 57:42

Fridays are so much lighter a lot of times when you're at work. Granted, I'm not uh working from home, but working in a space where you're around other people, like everybody it's just a lighter feel. Everybody's just so happy it's Friday. Totally. God, if you could they're on Monday, everybody's nice and everything, but you can tell everybody's like, ugh. Like, get me out of here. Get me out of here. So it's like I would rather digest the Friday energy at work than the Monday.

SPEAKER_04 58:12

Yeah, you're kind of right. I actually, you're so right that it's like Friday doesn't even really feel like a work day, even if you're at work.

SPEAKER_03 58:21

It doesn't feel like a full work day, not a full thing. It always feels like an air of we could leave at any moment.

SPEAKER_04 58:27

Like for two steps from the door. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 58:31

Honestly, people are excited about their weekends, talking about their plans. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 58:36

So wow, maybe I'm like slightly starting to change my tune on this because I feel that.

SPEAKER_03 58:42

Yeah, but then it kind of defeats even in saying this devil's advocate argument, it's like you're not really focusing on the days off, you're focusing on the days you're gonna be there, which that probably shouldn't be the focus, right? You should focus on the days off.

SPEAKER_02 58:56

There's no should.

SPEAKER_03 58:57

Right, good point. You know what I'm saying? Like all this devil's advocate, I've been talking about when you're at work. If you're taking a three-day weekend, just rip the band-aid and just be in the weekends no matter the days, right?

SPEAKER_04 59:09

Well, yes. And you could argue, like in Chicago in the summer, more is gonna be going on all day on a Friday. All day than on a Monday.

SPEAKER_03 59:18

For sure. So And some are are some restaurants closed on Sundays? Mondays, definitely on Mondays. Definitely on Mondays, got it.

SPEAKER_04 59:26

So some some Sundays, I think, but definitely Mondays. I think that's like a big restaurant night off.

SPEAKER_01 59:32

Monday.

SPEAKER_04 59:33

Yeah, and like salons take it off. You know, but what you're saying about the Friday thing is it's almost like if you pick Friday to be in the office, you're almost getting like three and a half days off. Kind of, and that's not the case if you take the Friday because you don't really get a half day Thursday, yeah. No, no, never, no matter what happens.

SPEAKER_03 59:55

If anything, sometimes you stay a little bit later on Friday, punch it out so that you can or on Thursday so that you can have a really easy, breezy Friday.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:03

Yeah, Thursday, you're kind of it's the moment of truth because you're like, I'm taking an E on Friday.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:07

Putting the phone on mute and just out of the office.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:12

Out of here.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:13

Well, I'm I yeah. Again, either way, you win. Yeah, it's a three-day weekend, you're gonna enjoy yourself, enjoy your time. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:23

Yeah, what do you think, Joshi? I've never been more torn out of how wise, is it? It's tough, isn't it? And I don't have much to add beyond what you've had, but you've read my mind back and forth.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:33

So do you you don't lean one way?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:34

Oh, I'm gonna lean. I just wanted to preface. I'm gonna lean. I'm gonna side with my wife. Oh, husband. Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Just because I think going out on a Thursday night is a little more festive than going out on a Sunday night.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:50

You're right about that. Yeah. That is that is an excellent point.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:52

But there are people who are like Sunday fun day people.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:57

I think it's pockets.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:58

Yeah. Some people believe Sunday is the best day.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:01

Yeah, I'll put stuff in my pockets.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:03

I mean, I think it also is seasonal. I mean, I think certainly if you're into the sport of it, like it's certainly football. I mean, that's a huge.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:12

That's why so many people love Sunday.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:14

Yeah, I mean, it's a day where you can get together and you know, just watch it or be at a bar and watch it with your friends. Everybody watches. Well, it's the NFL has done such a great job with fantasy that they even get the casual fan who doesn't care involved and wanting to watch it.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:31

I am jealous of that community.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:34

It is a yeah, it's huge.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:36

I wish I cared.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:37

But I do think Thursday nights can almost sometimes feel like a weekend night. Yeah, totally. A lot of people definitely phoning it in on Friday.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:46

Definitely like definitely like, you know what? I think it's through.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:49

As long as I drink enough coffee in the morning and get the dry heaves out, I'll be fine. Totally. Well, yeah, I think I would also lean Friday, Saturday, Sunday. I do think though, there's something to be said about having a Monday off every once in a while.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:04

Yeah, we almost might have to test it. Because like every time Josh and I go to Michigan, we take the Friday.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:08

The Friday off?

SPEAKER_04 1:02:09

We'll often like drive up Thursday night. Actually, honestly, both of us usually work during the day from his mom's house on Friday. So it's like, this doesn't even count. But we never think to work from the house on Monday and then drive home. That sounds like a nightmare. Work all day Monday and then get in in the car for a four and a half hour drive.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:28

What? Wait, work all day Monday.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:31

And then at the end of the workday, drive home to Chicago.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:34

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:35

Because Thursday we work all day here, Thursday, and then get in the car. But it's kind of like we're driving into the weekend, we've just got a couple clients the next day. Josh has like got a few meetings or whatever. Some editing.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:46

My bosses love the 5 30 Friday meeting.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:48

Yeah, Josh's boss schedules a 5 30 Friday meeting.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:51

I mean, that that's diagnostic.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:53

It's diagnostic.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:54

I feel like it's like I feel really messy going into the weekend, not knowing what our plan is for next week.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:00

It's a total control move. It's a control move.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:03

That's what I said.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:04

Shout out.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:04

But I I just is more generous about it. I'm like, that's bullshit.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:08

Is it the same time zone?

SPEAKER_04 1:03:10

No. She's in California. Or no, she's in Arizona. So it is two hours.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:15

So that's a 3:30 meeting for her. Still, 3:30 is cutting it on a Friday. It is cutting it on a Friday and with no consideration of other people's schedules.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:23

So Or even wisdom. It's like we're all like cross-eyed by 3:30 on Friday.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:27

I never allow supervision. I always tell because supervision usually where at least I work happens in the afternoons because we're not face to face with patient in the afternoons. Yeah. And I always tell my new supervisees, Friday is not an option. Like you cannot, I'm I'm toast. You're not gonna, it's nothing about you. You're just not gonna get as good what I feel presence, like we talked about last week, or supervision as you would on another day. We're not doing Friday.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:58

You know, it's funny that you say that because like I'll have clients all the time. We'll be like, Can we do Friday afternoon? And it's funny, like, I'll have a second where I'll be like, why do they want to meet on Friday afternoon? And then it like dawns me. I'm like, oh, this is their therapy. This is where they come to like be taken care of. And I'm working, like there's only one of us working.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:16

Yeah, because then I'll just be like, no, I don't see clients because they are cutting out of work early to go to therapy to start their weekends.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:22

Yeah, like I wouldn't mind therapy on Friday afternoon, unless I was like crying because I often cry in therapy, but it's funny because I'll be like, I wonder why they want it, and then I'm like, Oh yeah, they're not at work. Interesting debate.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:33

Interesting debate. We all lean Friday. Tell us, give us your reasons why Monday. We all lean Friday. Give us your reasons. I think there are reasons to take it off.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:42

There's valid reasons. We're we'll hear them,

Contact Info, Shoutouts, And Wrap

SPEAKER_04 1:04:45

we'll acknowledge them, we'll judge them.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:47

And we'll judge you. No, we won't. No. Let us know.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:50

Yeah, well, where can people find you?

SPEAKER_03 1:04:52

Uh, you can email me at butts but jonathan at gmail.com. Questions. Yeah. Uh, what would you like us to explore? How wise is it questions, recommendations for us, topics, anything you would like. Yeah. I'm gonna do a Josh Bayer here. I'm gonna give a shout out to a band that was on my weekly playlist. You know, Spotify gives you that weekly discover weekly playlist sometimes. Threw a band on there, haven't listened to in years, but saw them at Lala a long time ago and they put on a great show. Not a surf.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:23

Not a surf.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:24

Not a surf.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:25

They're pretty good. Surf. You know them. They're like a more in-tune pavement.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:29

They just kind of you know their music, you know it's a not a surf song when you hear it. I don't have any of their albums, but it was just thrown on there. Shout out, not a surf.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:38

Shout out, give it a look. I love it. Um, if you want to reach me, you can find me at kkpsychotherapy.com if you wanna work with me. If you um if you like, you know what could be interesting? It's like if people have like a therapy question.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:53

Ooh, therapy questions.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:55

You know, like we can cover it, or um or like if you come across an article like this or people have opinions. We'll give you the inner workings. Yeah, we'll give you our thoughts with a little spice in there too. For sure. So yeah, kkpsychotherapy.com. Send me an inquiry there. And how about you, Josh?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:12

You can find me at joshbayerfilms.com. Bayer is in the aspirin, B-A-Y-E-R. And I'm an editor. I'll edit anything you throw at me. I'll make the time. You just gotta pay me. Nice. Sometimes. Well, I'm probably not gonna do it for free, but maybe. Well, let's talk about it. It's negotiate. Negotiate.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:33

Let's find it, let's find a fee that works for both of us.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:37

Zero dollars. Yeah. Just kidding. But am I?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:41

And thank you to blanket forts.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:42

Thank you to blankets. Thank you to blanket forts. You have my shout out.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:46

Oh, was that your shout out? Sorry.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:47

No, well, I'm gonna shout out DJ Blanket Ports. Yeah. Um, if you love the pod, rate us. Yeah. Please rate us blank. Please rate the review, it helps us get discovered. If you want to be honest, rate it whatever stars you think. You're just a Think Five. Yeah. And uh, I'm gonna shout out the new Tierra Wack album. It is Wax Museum.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:08

Tierra Wack?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:09

Tierra Wack. Tierra Whack. Female rapper. Some call her the female MF Doom.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:15

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:16

I kind of just came up with that on my run.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:18

I don't know who MF Doom is.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:19

Well, you better get to studying.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:21

You haven't heard his album Mm Food?

SPEAKER_03 1:07:24

I love Mm Food.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:25

Oh my god, I should listen to it sometime. She's like rapping about Doritos, Fritos, and Cheetos.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:29

Rhymes like dimes.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:32

Anyway, I love it. Kind of old school, kind of new school. Songs really short. Also, check out Wax World. It's 15 songs. They're all one minute, a 15-minute album.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:44

Wow. Wow. That's interesting.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:46

She's the female Dr. Seuss.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:48

Cool. I love it.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:49

Okay, and we'll catch you next time. Thanks for watching. See you later.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:52

Bye.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:55

Wise Mine Happy Hour podcast is for entertainment purposes only, not to be treated as medical advice. If you are struggling with your mental health, please seek medical attention or counseling.