the wisdom of SELF COMPASSION + ironing clothes

For those of you who roll your eyes at the term "self compassion"...this ep is worth a listen. (Or at least a read through the transcript.) Many of us are so stuck in a trance of unworthiness, that it might seem like self compassion is overly indulgent (or counter to our ambitions.) In this episode, we respectfully challenge this notion...and also dive into the wisdom of ironing clothes....or is steaming best?

- music by blanket forts -

Transcript

Welcome and Personal Updates

SPEAKER_02 0:04

Welcome to the Wisemind Happy Hour. I'm John.

SPEAKER_00 0:07

I'm Kelly. Welcome.

SPEAKER_02 0:09

We're your therapist. We're always joined by our producer, Josh. Hi Josh. Hey, what's up?

SPEAKER_00 0:14

Yeah, welcome.

SPEAKER_02 0:15

Or Jish, as we effectually.

SPEAKER_00 0:18

You know, I should even explain why I call Josh Jish. From the very beginning of our relationship, I don't know if this is a typo in my phone or like the way my fingers are shaped, but every time I would type his name, it would type out Jish. And actually, when I type your name, sometimes I type Jin.

SPEAKER_02 0:33

Wait, what how do you spell Jish?

SPEAKER_00 0:35

J-I-S-H.

SPEAKER_02 0:37

Oh, interesting.

SPEAKER_00 0:38

Yeah. So I ended up like I would sometimes accidentally send it because I was sending it so fast. And then we it kind of became a joke between us that Jish and then Jish turned into Jish Y.

SPEAKER_02 0:48

But is that like an autocorrect?

SPEAKER_00 0:50

Or it just that's I don't know if it's autocorrect, or my fingers are just like weirdly shaped.

SPEAKER_02 0:55

Yeah. Phones do weird stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

Because why would it correct Josh to Jish?

SPEAKER_02 0:59

Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

Now, is that me with like my like overly white lens? Like maybe Jish is a common name. It is. In like, you know, Scandinavia. Southern English. Which is also why in Scandinavia.

SPEAKER_02 1:13

But it's yeah, who knows why it autocorrects a certain thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

I know.

SPEAKER_02 1:18

That's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 1:19

But now it's his legal name. So we've changed once we got married. We changed. Yeah, we changed it. Neither of our last names, but his first name.

SPEAKER_02 1:28

Changed. Well, I have I saved this. I didn't talk about this in the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:32

Oh, I want to know.

SPEAKER_02 1:34

Huge news. I am gonna wear this wise mind happy hour t-shirt every time we record.

SPEAKER_01 1:44

Really?

SPEAKER_02 1:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:45

I love it.

SPEAKER_02 1:46

I decided today this. Because I wear the same shirt to work every day. Yeah, like six of the same one. I think I've mentioned this on the pod before. And we have these beautiful t-shirts that were a gift.

SPEAKER_00 2:00

That John, your wife made.

SPEAKER_02 2:02

Are you that yes? Sarah made them, but they have the logo that Jake, my brother, made on them. And I was like, I don't, I don't ever wear it. So now I'm gonna wear it. I feel like it's gonna get me in the zone every time I'm in. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 2:15

I really love that.

SPEAKER_02 2:17

Actually, it's like not then when I come home or I know we're recording, I don't even have to think about what I'm gonna wear because I just know I'm gonna be in the zone. It's my uniform. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:25

Isn't wasn't that the whole Steve Jobs? Like, yeah, what's the tur the theory? It's like elimination of choice or something.

SPEAKER_02 2:32

Yeah. Well, right. You're not wasting time. Yeah, you're like not wasting time making decision fatigue. Like you're not you're focusing your energy on other things.

SPEAKER_00 2:42

Yes, okay. Actually, I This is not really huge news. I just I mean for me it is. Because any sartorial choice is interesting to me. As you know, I like think about this stuff way too much. It's sartorial. Sartorial means like clothing.

SPEAKER_01 2:57

Why did I always think it meant um something else?

SPEAKER_00 3:01

Um But no, I I read a bunch of substacks that talk about like fashion and whatever. Like they'll they'll come out, you know, with an article each week about it. And one of the my favorite ones this week, it was like uniforms for adults. Yeah. And how like helpful it is to just like to even like explore your creativity in a box. Her hers was more like a skirt, a shirt, a stocking, this is for fall, and some kind of like flat shoe. And I loved all the different combos of it she came up with, but you're even like, I'm going to shirt this shirt.

SPEAKER_03 3:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:40

I love it. I'm for it. I just feel yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:46

I feel comfortable in what I'm comfortable in, and it's like, why deviate? Why deviate the plan?

SPEAKER_00 3:53

I I think that's completely fair. I'm like, part of me is like, some of the time I'll join you.

SPEAKER_02 3:58

Yeah, this is not, I'm not prescribing.

SPEAKER_00 4:01

You're not prescribing it.

SPEAKER_02 4:02

I'm telling it. This is what I was changing into it. I was like, you know what, just go for it.

SPEAKER_00 4:07

Why do you think coming with me every night?

SPEAKER_02 4:10

I'm just doing it every night, and we record every single day. Every single night. But what's interesting about recording, I was also thinking about this and I was laughing, and I want to know your take on this. Have you had people who you're close to in your life who know you record a podcast and will say, Hey, how is how's the podcast going? Knowing full well that they haven't listened to one episode.

SPEAKER_00 4:38

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:38

Oh yeah. Isn't that interesting? Totally. What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_00 4:43

Yeah, it's like I the most like it's funny. It's like I can't tell if for me is the asking bothersome or is it just simply they're not listening, whether they asked or not.

SPEAKER_02 4:55

I was laughing to myself about it because it's like it requires no like you could literally listen to a podcast at any moment of your day. It's not like we're requiring Yeah. It's just so funny when it's like somebody who's just like, hey, yeah, how's that thing going? And it's like if they ask you about like how's your job going? They can't like go to your job. Yeah. Or how is that trip? They weren't on your trip. It's like at any moment they could literally hit play and listen to our podcast, but it's just so funny to me. Like it's just like, hey, how's that going?

The T-Shirt Uniform Commitment

SPEAKER_02 5:25

You tell me what episode I haven't listened to.

SPEAKER_00 5:28

I should be more interested in your feedback than listen to one. Yeah. It's like then they like get extremely uncomfortable. It's so funny to me. I'm not offended by it, it's just funny to me. I I probably am like, I probably paint back and forth between thinking, like, I can't believe anyone listens to like everyone should listen. It's like a crazy like noise in my brain. When the reality is like obviously somewhere in the middle, because I can acknowledge, like, there are people that are just not podcasts, like me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:59

I I listen to them with you. Yeah. But I was gonna say, I would be the friend, I would be the friend that would be like, and I actually have said this to my friend Matt. Well, we listen to Matt's podcast. Yeah. Shout out Matt Goodman, because I felt like a jackass, but I'm also overthinking everything. You're not a podcast. I'm not a podcast listener. I think I I spend for like the same reason I don't follow politics, and the same reason I mostly don't like do anything except work and try to maintain my relationships or what's left of them. But I um I just listen to so much music. And I would always rather be listening to music if left to my own devices. If we're in the car and Kelly puts on a podcast, like Doughboys or Howlong Gun or Stradio Leb. Like you listen to a lot of funny podcasts. My brother, Zanek Bear, shout out to Zenek, has uh played me a bit of cumtown. That's very funny. Yeah, that's no longer a pod. Oh, it's not.

SPEAKER_00 6:55

No, it like got like major canceled.

SPEAKER_01 6:58

Oh, summer. Am I gonna get canceled now that I live? Oh no, you can refer to it. Okay, well, sorry, everyone. But um sorry for real. I like I can enjoy a pod and enjoy it thoroughly. We listened to Matt's episode and it was it was great, but you know, if if Matt's listening to this, um I I feel bad I haven't listened to all your podcasts, but I just don't listen to podcasts.

SPEAKER_02 7:21

Yeah, it's fair. I lean in your direction. I don't really listen to podcasts either. And I just think it's it just struck me as funny. Where it was, it was like, oh yeah. Like it's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 7:33

That's like you could just engage with it. I know it's so true because it is like they can't go to your job, they can't go on your vacation. I guess they could look at your pics if you post, which you wouldn't, but and it comes from a great place, right?

SPEAKER_02 7:48

Like people are really interested and they want to know like how is it going? Yeah, but I was just like, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:53

Wait, I feel like someone recently said to me, and Josh, I'm not a podcast person. I feel like someone said that to us.

SPEAKER_01 8:01

Was it me?

unknown 8:02

No.

SPEAKER_01 8:02

Oh, sorry.

SPEAKER_00 8:04

You looked at me and you're just like, I'm not a podcast person. No, it was someone.

SPEAKER_01 8:11

Yeah. Was it me?

SPEAKER_00 8:12

Was it one of your relatives?

SPEAKER_01 8:14

Obviously, not your immediate family, but um give me a time, date, stamp, era? Was it yesterday? Was it week before? Yeah, day after tomorrow.

SPEAKER_00 8:27

I mean, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 8:29

Well, it's just an interesting was it a celebrity?

SPEAKER_00 8:33

That'd be amazing. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 8:36

Yeah, are we talking about pop culture today? I didn't prepare.

SPEAKER_00 8:38

So, okay, I was kind of like digging into pop culture a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 8:42

Yeah, I just thought it was an interesting circumstance where somebody asked me about it and I was like, you didn't listen.

SPEAKER_00 8:49

Yeah, it's like go ahead, take a listen. Let me know what you think. Um, well, I was thinking like this is like a nothing burger, but it's less of a nothing burger given our history with this couple or this person, really. Um Ilaria Baldwin was back in the news, which John and I, when we shot an office, talked a ton about. Do you know Josh? This whole thing.

SPEAKER_01 9:13

Is this a Baldwin?

SPEAKER_00 9:15

So it's Alec Baldwin. Alec Baldwin's. It's Alec Baldwin's wife. Wife. Um, and obviously he shot someone. Yeah, so yes, which is like horrifying and tragic. But she was in the news for like a less harrowing thing, and she was simply just like pretending that she was from Spain when she's like from Boston, I think. And she was like using an accent a lot of times. People filmed her, she pretended

When People Don't Listen to Your Podcast

SPEAKER_00 9:46

she didn't know the word for cucumber. She was like, cucumber. And she came under fire because people who knew her were like, she's from Boston. And it was a whole thing, but she was in the news because Alec Baldwin's daughter. I mean, this is a nothing burger of a story, but Alec Baldwin's daughter came out and like had this big post about like how much she loves her and respects her and appreciates how she's like helped heal his relationship with Ireland, the daughter who posted this, the one he did refer to as a rude little pig.

SPEAKER_02 10:22

I'm sorry, the daughter said that his wife helped Alec heal the relationship with Yeah, and like she brought out his like softer side and helped him get healthier again.

SPEAKER_00 10:36

She didn't refer to the voicemail because you guys are familiar with the famous voicemails.

SPEAKER_01 10:39

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 10:40

Are you Josh?

SPEAKER_01 10:40

I think so. Um how many voicemails are are there?

SPEAKER_00 10:44

It's like that's a great question. Um, so I thought that was so interesting because she like went out of her way to be like, this woman is great. Yeah. This is really nothing, but I thought it was funny because you and I had talked a lot about when she was pretending to be a good thing.

SPEAKER_02 11:01

When she got into the news, because that was like a thing.

SPEAKER_00 11:03

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_02 11:04

Where it was like she was pretending to be something she isn't.

SPEAKER_00 11:08

And you know, it is kind of an interesting question because people were so up in arms about that, kind of including us. More because it was funny.

SPEAKER_02 11:16

Yeah. But it's like and then I think her was her response to that something to the effect of like her family.

SPEAKER_00 11:23

That's like Yeah, she was like, My parents like spend a lot of time there. Like basically, my parents like summer in Spain. Okay. So suddenly she like can't speak English.

SPEAKER_02 11:32

It doesn't add up really, but and then the accent stuff kind of like corrected, not corrected, but it did it.

SPEAKER_00 11:39

Oh, yeah, she went back to normal. Yeah. And they have like the two of them have like a lot of kids. A bunch of kids, yeah. And they have a reality show that I will at some point turn on.

SPEAKER_02 11:51

Oh, I didn't know they had a really yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:53

I've heard it's like pretty tough to watch.

SPEAKER_02 11:55

It's just their home life. Yeah. With all those kids. And it's like chaos. But were they filming that when the other incident happened that we referred to when he was on set?

SPEAKER_00 12:04

And no, no, I I honestly think they went for this idea because like I think his career is like in shambles. Oh, okay. Um, yeah, I think that I think his career's in shambles, and they've had kid after kid after kid.

SPEAKER_02 12:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:22

And you know, they live in New York.

SPEAKER_02 12:24

Yeah. I wouldn't be surprised if Yeah, he was on Saturday Night Live, like every weekend.

SPEAKER_00 12:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:30

For like a while.

SPEAKER_00 12:30

And he had a podcast. Oh, he did?

SPEAKER_02 12:33

Yes, and I actually liked it. He's got a great voice for a podcast. Totally. Or just any voiceover work. Yeah. He could, I mean, it's just great. Yeah. He would also do, I feel like, voiceover for like the Met or something like that. Like if they showed something on PBS, he would like. Yeah, I could see that he's got a great he would like voice over, like, and this is directed by so-and-so starring. I feel like he did that for a while. Yeah. It sounds great.

SPEAKER_00 12:58

I mean, he was such a fixture. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 13:01

And he was on 30 Rock and Yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_00 13:04

He was so funny on 30 Rock. It is really tragic what happened there. It's, I mean, I think by all accounts it was an accident. Although there's a lot that's come out that they were like not even close to the proper safety precautions.

SPEAKER_02 13:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:20

Which obviously wouldn't have been his fault.

SPEAKER_02 13:22

Right.

SPEAKER_00 13:23

God, it would still be so awful if you accidentally did something and someone died. Oh, I can't even imagine.

SPEAKER_02 13:30

Trauma. Now I know it hasn't been a lot of time, but has there been any update on Sean White and Oh.

SPEAKER_00 13:37

So I was like looking at some TikToks, but I couldn't make heads or tails of it.

SPEAKER_02 13:41

Okay.

unknown 13:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:42

We're still in the dark on that.

SPEAKER_00 13:44

But Lori did correct. We do have to issue a correction that they were engaged since October. So it was more than a month.

SPEAKER_02 13:52

Oh, okay. So that oh, so almost a year. Yeah. Because we're in September.

Celebrity Gossip and Baldwin Drama

SPEAKER_02 13:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 13:56

So I'd be curious if that wedding was starting to get planned and then they canceled it. I don't know. We'll have to keep it a big waste of money.

SPEAKER_02 14:06

Yeah. We're gonna stay abreast of the street.

SPEAKER_00 14:10

Keep our ear to the updates. Ear to the ground.

SPEAKER_02 14:14

The ground. Is that what it is? Yeah, there we go. On that one.

SPEAKER_00 14:17

Ear to the ground on Nina Dobrev.

SPEAKER_02 14:19

Well, now I'm invested because you all talked about it last week.

SPEAKER_00 14:22

Yeah. Yeah, it is interesting. Like, I almost think it's like that stuff is interesting too. Because it's like, even if relationships are performative, it's like, what are they performing? Like those two, it's like they're not like the biggest celebrities. So it's like, what by them being like this cute couple? Is it just as simple? Actually, wait, this is making me think of another potentially performative couple, potentially completely performative couple. But it's like, what's the point of us like seeing that? Is it really just to like let their stars rise and maybe they each have like tequila brands they want to like promote or something and make money from? Maybe. But or it's like, are they just a cute couple that people like gravitate toward?

SPEAKER_02 15:07

And it's authentic.

SPEAKER_00 15:08

And it's authentic. It's hard to know. Sometimes when they're kind of random celebrities, you're like, maybe this is authentic, you know? Um, but recently, like TMZ reported that Pamela Anderson and Liam Neeson, did you know that they're supposedly dating?

SPEAKER_02 15:24

Really?

SPEAKER_00 15:25

Yes, they were in the naked gun remake together. Yeah. So supposedly they're dating. And Pamela Anderson's been on like a total renaissance. Yeah, she doesn't wear makeup.

SPEAKER_02 15:38

Didn't she do a movie about like being a showgirl or something like that recently? The last showgirl?

SPEAKER_00 15:43

Wait, isn't that the Taylor Swift album?

SPEAKER_01 15:46

Did she name it after I was gonna say Barbara Stryzand? Oh my god, shout out Pamela Anderson? Wow, maybe I'm mixed up.

SPEAKER_00 15:52

I think that is the last showgirl or the first show. What was the name of the movie?

SPEAKER_01 15:57

Shogun.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

We're gonna have to look this up. But it's something like that. And she was in that. She was on like an Oscars run. Okay. And they're so it it they had been like dating and in the press. And it was cute, you know, them both like finding love at this point, especially because his wife died in that skiing accident.

SPEAKER_03 16:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:18

And then, but he was also like, he came out and said some pretty bad stuff, and he was kind of like cancelled as well. He said some like racially charged things that were not great.

SPEAKER_01 16:27

Um The Last Showgirl is the I almost said Barbara Streisand again. Pamela Anderson movie. Yeah. I obviously get the two of them mixed up.

SPEAKER_00 16:37

And what's the Taylor Swift album?

SPEAKER_01 16:39

Oh, I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_00 16:40

Well, you go.

SPEAKER_01 16:41

No, it's it's the life of a showgirl.

SPEAKER_00 16:43

The life of a showgirl. Okay, got it. Close.

SPEAKER_01 16:46

Close.

SPEAKER_00 16:46

Um, but so TMZ reported that the relationship was totally just to promote the movie and they were never really together. Oh, okay. But then another podcast I was listening to said they've never reported that they were actually together. They've never actually officially endorsed that the two of them. But they've taken a bunch of cute pictures together and they were on Watch What Happens live together on Bravo. And Andy Cohen was saying, We're so happy for you, even though they didn't confirm it in that moment. So it seemed like But they also didn't deny it. They didn't deny it exactly. Didn't deny it, didn't confirm it, but kind of an interesting. I mean, honestly, that one didn't bother me. I'm like, I could see, I could see a production company being like, you know, let's kind of make it seem like they're dating, even if they're not.

SPEAKER_02 17:33

I think a deeper question is do you think Liam Neeson does comedy well?

SPEAKER_00 17:38

I would have to see that movie because I was shocked that he was cast as the Leslie Nielsen character.

SPEAKER_02 17:44

I feel like he couldn't make any more movies that are basically like taken remakes. I mean, yeah, him. An older guy who was able to literally kill everyone in the movie.

SPEAKER_00 17:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:56

And Taken is a guilty pleasure. I do really like that movie. I don't think I ever watched any of the sequels.

SPEAKER_00 18:02

Yeah, I didn't see the sequels either. I just saw the first.

SPEAKER_02 18:05

Probably not missing much. I can guess what happens. Right. But I'm curious his comedic chops.

SPEAKER_00 18:11

I I was pretty surprised. I almost think I was like a little bothered seeing him. Were you? Well, because like Leslie Nielsen is a legend.

SPEAKER_02 18:21

But you think Leon Wieson's so serious that for him to do anything comedic would be funny? Yeah, maybe. Just that whole idea of it, even if it doesn't, he doesn't land it every time.

SPEAKER_00 18:32

Yeah. It's like I'm trying to think who would we want to replace like what actual comedian would we want in that slot instead? Oh, you would want an actual comedian, not a dramatic older actor. Yeah, sorta. Was Leslie Nielsen ever dramatic? I feel like he was always comedy. Airplane. He was dramatic.

SPEAKER_01 18:50

He was Leslie Nielsen was in this, like, um, because I'm editing the Rod Serling documentary, and Leslie Nielsen is in this like 50s movie called The Velvet Alley about how like Hollywood is corrupt. Wow. As a young man. I honestly couldn't even tell who he was in the movie. I couldn't recognize him. He was so young. Wow. I got I've watched the movie, I think, twice. But yeah, that's a drama. Was it color? Black and white. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 19:17

But I was just curious if he still had white hair. Like it was he just like white hair from like 28 years old.

SPEAKER_01 19:21

Black and black black and white. Yeah. Black and white hair. But do you think that they cast Leslie Neelson? Do you think they cast Liam Neeson? What?

SPEAKER_00 19:30

I think you're you're shaking the uh bookshelf.

SPEAKER_01 19:34

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 19:34

Maybe the bench is a little close to it.

SPEAKER_01 19:36

Yeah. There we go.

SPEAKER_00 19:39

Perfect. Perfect.

SPEAKER_01 19:41

Do you think they cast Liam Neeson because his name is so similar to Leslie Nielsen? Oh, that's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 19:48

I'm obsessed with that

Upcoming Bachelorette Party Adventures

SPEAKER_00 19:50

reason.

SPEAKER_01 19:50

That's been my theory all along.

SPEAKER_00 19:53

It's like an AI director. That's like this makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 19:56

Yeah. It's like, oh, like you can't cast Mel Gibson. I guess you'll cast Mel Brooks.

SPEAKER_00 20:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:02

That is I would have a lot of that. I got it. Got me to Hollywood.

SPEAKER_00 20:08

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_02 20:09

I'm making calls. But like I feel like Michael Keaton could do a naked.

SPEAKER_00 20:15

He'd be incredible. I love it. Like he could do that.

SPEAKER_02 20:18

I know. So do I. He could do that.

SPEAKER_00 20:20

So funny.

SPEAKER_02 20:22

And he's of an age that he can totally do it.

SPEAKER_00 20:26

Oh. Yeah, it's like he's probably not doing anything. I mean, bless his heart.

SPEAKER_02 20:31

Yeah, he had a he came back and did stuff.

SPEAKER_00 20:35

He did, and he did Birdman.

SPEAKER_02 20:37

He did Birdman. He did that movie Spotlight.

SPEAKER_00 20:41

Yes, he was in Spotlight. I loved that movie.

SPEAKER_02 20:44

Yeah. He was in um, he actually directed a film recently and starred in it, I think, as well. Um yeah, he was a hitman who ended up starting to develop like a very aggressive form of uh dementia.

SPEAKER_00 20:58

Oh.

SPEAKER_02 20:59

And so he was forgetting like why he was going on hits and Whoa, that's an interesting concept. Yeah. Um so yeah, I forget what that was called, but anyway.

SPEAKER_01 21:11

I love it. He was in the new Beetlejuice. Oh Beetlejuice. Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice.

SPEAKER_00 21:19

The Beetlejuice remake, that's right.

SPEAKER_02 21:21

But he doesn't have the right initials.

SPEAKER_00 21:23

So No, so he couldn't be.

SPEAKER_02 21:25

He couldn't be.

SPEAKER_00 21:26

Yeah. That AR director would say, next.

SPEAKER_01 21:29

MK. You could get um Martin King. Okay. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02 21:39

Junior, junior. Next next question.

SPEAKER_00 21:42

Oh my god. So what's actually new with you in your life?

SPEAKER_02 21:46

Nothing.

SPEAKER_00 21:46

Nothing? Yeah, I guess we did see each other.

SPEAKER_02 21:49

We did see each other very recently. Yeah. Uh no, I'm trying to think what happened. Well, the post show party was great last time going out to dinner. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

Yes, me, John, and Lori went to dinner and Josh.

SPEAKER_01 22:03

I stayed at home and edited the podcast. Josh ate a lonely bowl of sauce.

SPEAKER_02 22:11

Did you wait, did you get any of the leftovers though?

SPEAKER_01 22:13

Oh yeah. I've been eating them for breakfast. Okay. Yeah. For days for days. Yeah. Great. We still have a little bit of uh uh bread left. Which would you call that non? No. Non? PETA? PETA, sorry. I'm gonna get canceled.

SPEAKER_02 22:27

But it but that just goes back to is it why does it have leftovers? Of course it is. You're still in them. Yeah, for me. Yeah, you're a leftover. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:36

Yeah. Um, I did tell Josh we saw rats.

SPEAKER_02 22:40

I yeah, I wasn't gonna bring it up.

SPEAKER_00 22:42

There were rats. We did see that. We were on the porch and as the city of Chicago, there were rats. Yeah. And it was pretty harrowing. But everything else was great. It was great to go to the show.

SPEAKER_02 22:50

So the patio is so beautiful. Yeah. It's so nice. And we just happened to be at a table that backed up to like an alley. Yeah. And so we we saw to the rats be dining.

SPEAKER_00 23:02

It's a little Remy from Ratatouille. I know. John said the rat probably cooked the meal. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:08

I don't think Lori was a fan of that guy.

SPEAKER_01 23:11

Oh no. Does she not like Ratatouille?

SPEAKER_02 23:13

I don't think she likes anything to do with rats, which who really does.

SPEAKER_00 23:18

Right, right. Oh god.

SPEAKER_02 23:20

I was just trying to make light of maybe a dire situation, and I didn't want us to leave, but we suck it out.

SPEAKER_00 23:26

We suck it out. We suck it out. We made room for the rats and we kept we made room. Yeah. We invited them up. It was so but it was so nice to go and it was so nice. And the food was great. The food is is good at that place for sure, and the ambiance is great on that back porch. And I wanted us to go and have you and Lori see it before it closes because it closes in the fall. I don't think they keep it open in the fall. I also figured out it's called Faya, not FIA.

SPEAKER_02 23:51

It's seasonal.

SPEAKER_00 23:52

I think the back area is seasonal. Okay. Um but they've got a ton of tables back there. It's great. If you're in Chicago and you're in on the northeast side.

SPEAKER_02 24:02

Are we like promoting this or are we like I mean I love the restaurant by Joe?

SPEAKER_00 24:07

Yeah, maybe we want to still be able to get a table. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:11

It was a great time, though. It was fun. It was really nice. Did you do anything on Sunday? I'm trying to remember what I did on Sunday.

SPEAKER_00 24:16

Sunday, Josh and I were pretty productive Sunday. One to Trader Joe's.

SPEAKER_01 24:20

Yeah, that was the crux of our Trader Joe's on Sunday.

SPEAKER_00 24:23

I mean, everyone knows this, but you're taking your life in your hands in the parking lot.

SPEAKER_01 24:27

It's a zoo.

SPEAKER_00 24:28

It's crazy. You get honked at by and we like accidentally stole someone's spot and had like a guilt spiral about it.

SPEAKER_02 24:36

You went to the one on Lincoln. Yeah, but okay that one right there. Yeah, I mean, they just need to knock down the pet supply store next door and make that more of a parking lot.

SPEAKER_00 24:45

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they really should.

SPEAKER_02 24:48

Which goes back to the how wise is to have pets.

SPEAKER_00 24:50

Yeah. Don't knock them out.

SPEAKER_02 24:52

Just knock down the store.

SPEAKER_00 24:53

Knock it out. I almost think it's like, yeah, knock it out and just make that more the parking lot. Is that what you just said?

SPEAKER_01 25:00

Did you save paradise? That is a great idea. Get rid of your pets in front of a parking lot.

SPEAKER_00 25:04

Wait for a second? I I could just like blacked out for a second.

SPEAKER_02 25:08

Did you just take my idea in real time and say, you know what they should do? You know what would be a great idea?

SPEAKER_00 25:13

No, they should do exactly what you just said. No, I was thinking for a second you might expand the Trader Joe's, but no, that wouldn't be.

SPEAKER_02 25:19

Well, they could do that too.

SPEAKER_00 25:20

That wouldn't solve the parking lot.

SPEAKER_02 25:21

But that wouldn't solve the parking issue.

SPEAKER_00 25:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:23

Um, it would make the shopping experience maybe a little bit less crowded.

SPEAKER_00 25:26

Yeah. But my mom, I think, has said that every Trader Joe's has problems with the way they lay out the parking lot.

SPEAKER_02 25:32

Do you think they do that to make it look more busy? Is there something to be said about that where it's like they make it smaller on purpose or they they get and and have you know brick and mortar in places that are smaller so that the parking lot always looks busy and people are like more like, oh yeah, I gotta go there. It's like a cool place. Is there the same thing?

SPEAKER_00 25:49

Oh my god, that's probably it. I've never even thought of that, but yes.

SPEAKER_02 25:54

You know, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 25:55

Yeah, it's like everyone and their mom is here, like you want to be here. It's the place to be.

SPEAKER_02 26:00

Secretly, I really want one of those mini Trader Joe's canvas bags.

SPEAKER_00 26:04

I know. There was a time where they were really hard to get. People were selling them for like hundreds and thousands of dollars.

SPEAKER_01 26:10

John, we have like two of those. No, the mini ones. Oh, I don't know what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_02 26:15

And it's literally like the canvas bags, which are so nice, and they shrunk them.

SPEAKER_01 26:18

Like a teeny beanie?

SPEAKER_02 26:19

Yeah, it's like a little tiny token.

SPEAKER_00 26:22

It looks exactly like they were as coveted as a labu.

SPEAKER_02 26:24

And they made like four different colors. I I was like, there's no way I'm gonna get my hands on one of these because oh, who has the time to stand in line and know when they're coming out? Yeah, but it got so popular that then they had people coming in and they were like, you can only buy two like at a time.

SPEAKER_00 26:39

Because people would like go to every Trader Joe's in their area and like and then resell them. Yeah, and resell them online.

SPEAKER_02 26:44

So secretly I do want one of those.

SPEAKER_00 26:45

I kind of want one of those too. Because actually, we saw this cool bag there and I was like, should we get this? And then we didn't end up getting it. It wasn't those bags, but I'm like, they do some cool merch.

SPEAKER_02 26:55

Because I have a cooler bag from there as well.

SPEAKER_00 26:57

I don't think it was a cooler bag, but I do like those. It was just like a funky bigger tote that had some like writing on it. It was like yellow and red. It was cool.

SPEAKER_01 27:07

Did it have like popcorn on it? Nice.

SPEAKER_00 27:09

Yeah, maybe. That sounds good.

SPEAKER_01 27:11

I feel it had a popcorn kind of vibe. Yeah. Was it like a farm, maybe? Farmland with like popcorn.

SPEAKER_00 27:18

I can't really remember. Yeah, I don't know. But I'm gonna look it up after this. Okay. And I'll let everyone know. Um, but yeah, that's really all we needed.

SPEAKER_02 27:27

Yeah, we went to the art festival. I think I mentioned that.

SPEAKER_00 27:30

Oh, yeah, how was it?

SPEAKER_02 27:30

It was nice. I mean, the weather was gorgeous on Sunday. So we walked over there. It was cool just to see a lot of different vendors. Um and it's also like fascinating how far people come from to display their art. Like there's a lot of Midwestern art, but then there was just like people from all over the country though. Really?

SPEAKER_00 27:49

Yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_02 27:51

Which makes sense, right? I mean, Chicago's a huge city. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:53

Um get your stuff out there, and you're gonna get like weirder, cool people that want to buy it.

SPEAKER_02 27:58

Yeah, right. Totally. So that was fun. And then what did we do? I think we just kind of like relaxed in the afternoon.

SPEAKER_00 28:05

Nice. Well, I'm like gearing up tomorrow. I leave for a bachelorette party.

SPEAKER_01 28:12

It's gonna be a lot. Sun's out, fun's.

SPEAKER_00 28:14

No, it's gonna be great. I'm actually really excited. I was thinking that today as I was going to pick up my broken computer.

SPEAKER_02 28:21

Tomorrow's Wednesday.

SPEAKER_00 28:22

Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:23

It sounds like this is gonna be awesome. It's gonna be all weekend. Uh so Wednesday.

SPEAKER_00 28:27

I know.

SPEAKER_02 28:29

It's gonna be all weekend. Wednesday for me and early the weekend. Yeah, though the weekend is now Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday for a bad show.

SPEAKER_00 28:36

I love saying that as a 36-year-old instead of like a 21-year-old. Um, well, actually, I'm going, I should say, I'm going early a day to LA, spending a night in LA, then driving up to Palm Springs. Okay. So it'll be Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, and then I'm spending a day in San Francisco to see my friend's son. That sounds great. Which will be great. I think it'll be so fun. Um, and it's like, it's kind of fun to almost be like a guest star to me at a bachelorette, where it's like, I know a couple of the people, but like not, I don't it's like not my main group. Right. You know, it's obviously the bride's main group, but it kind of feels like low stakes then. It's like if there's drama, if there's conflict, I'm sort of like not gonna be in the middle of it most of the time. You're on the periphery, you can watch it unfold. You can kind of just like enjoy take notes, report back on the report.

SPEAKER_02 29:24

I will definitely you're gonna be locked and loaded, you're gonna get a hopper full of stories.

SPEAKER_00 29:29

Totally. It'll be great. I was already giving Josh like everyone's backstory that I know, or at least how they know the bride and like my connection to each of them because I have met them all. Um, but yeah, it's fun. It's I think this is the most fun kind of group trip. Because I do we talked about this on a pod when Josh and I did a solo one. Group trips can have a lot of dynamics, a lot.

SPEAKER_02 29:52

You know, food, food, like I think just decision making in general.

SPEAKER_00 29:57

Yeah, all the decisions are like precarious.

SPEAKER_02 30:00

And what do you want to do? What do you want to do? Right. What do you want to do? And then there's somebody who really knows what they want to do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:08

Well, it's like I almost think I feel like it's like a post-COVID thing where like all of us, including myself, have maybe gotten a little more like, I want to do what I want to do because we like had to. Maybe. Maybe I don't know. Like, I almost feel like maybe it comes with age too. Yeah, with age for sure. And like getting people together and on the same page. Like, I remember trying to get people together after COVID felt like, is anyone ever gonna want to do this? It's gotten way better, and maybe it'll take like another 10 years for it to feel like all the way back, but it is interesting. Like, I'll be curious how it all goes. And I a long, long time ago, I actually did go to Palm Springs with a friend's uncle, like to stay with a friend's uncle who lived there. But I haven't been in so long, so I'm like, I'll be curious what even like the vibes there are like. I think it'll be right. I'll have so many stories. I'm excited.

SPEAKER_02 31:02

How many bags are you packing?

SPEAKER_00 31:04

I am gonna like pack and check a full bag. Yeah, you are. Well, too much time. I'm going for yeah, yeah. Going for it.

SPEAKER_02 31:12

It's like Wednesday night, one, two, but then you'll be easy breezy once you get through security.

SPEAKER_00 31:17

Um yes, exactly. It'll be easy breezy. I'll be able to bring like well, also because you get a lot of bachelor's arts, you get kind of like a dress code. So like specific things I had to bring. And so it's like I want to have all that and have all my stuff, so I'll easily be able to pack everything. I actually thought about listen to this lameness. I thought about bringing my computer and like doing a bit of work on the plane. Is that crazy?

SPEAKER_01 31:44

I know that is like not party vibes. Email people on the wise mind happy hour waiting list.

SPEAKER_00 31:50

Well, it's like I was thinking about doing a couple of those emails.

SPEAKER_01 31:52

You are a working professional.

SPEAKER_00 31:54

I know, and it is a Wednesday.

SPEAKER_02 31:56

Yeah, and it is a Wednesday, which most people don't work because that's a part apparently the weekend now. So you know, you wouldn't be working on the weekends.

SPEAKER_00 32:04

I know. Something about it feels like, what do I think? I'm like Steve Jobs, like working on the plane. Like I can't possibly let me get away. I know, I know, and it's like, I mean, maybe I will bring it. It's heavy, so I'm like, that's the other issue.

SPEAKER_02 32:18

Well, that's the only reason you wouldn't bring it, is like I gotta get an iPad.

SPEAKER_00 32:22

Yeah. Do you have an iPad?

SPEAKER_02 32:24

An iPad?

SPEAKER_00 32:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:25

I don't, but my kids do. Your kids do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:28

And it's really light, right?

SPEAKER_02 32:30

It's very light, and you could probably do, you know, because you can have those like foldable keyboards, those really little ones that could just you could clip right onto it. Um, so that would probably be useful.

SPEAKER_00 32:42

Are they really expensive?

SPEAKER_02 32:44

We um we got when we bought them, they were like refurbished like a year old version of them or something like that. And I think they were like I think it was like $300 maybe or something.

SPEAKER_00 32:59

Okay. I mean, I just paid that to fix my computer. I think.

SPEAKER_02 33:03

But I mean, if you're they the battery life has been great on them, and you know, my kids are just like streaming stuff. I my oldest son was doing some homework on it for a while, but they've been very functional and we haven't had any problems with it. They still hold a charge really well, so I mean I'm kind of on board with it. I can't speak to like looking at it and doing like work emails or something like that. I I don't know what that would be like, but I know I'm kidding. But the product itself has been very useful.

SPEAKER_00 33:33

Okay. It's not gonna work for this trip, but I may in the future, so I can do work and travel. Do it, be so nice. So you can do psychology. So I can do psychology on the go. Do therapy with anyone on the plane who needs it. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 33:49

Just have your pop it in the country. Just have your confidential notes out there.

SPEAKER_00 33:54

So we can blog about them.

SPEAKER_01 33:57

Show everyone your clients. Yeah, just have your client list out there.

SPEAKER_02 34:01

No, I'll let it breathe on the plane. Would never breathe. Just show the pilot.

SPEAKER_00 34:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:07

We know that's a joke. Be reasonable.

SPEAKER_00 34:09

I just enter the pilot as a patient, just like you know, in case they need a little therapy. But yeah, that's all that's going on. So maybe this is a good time

Introduction to Self-Compassion

SPEAKER_00 34:18

to shift. Yeah. So our topic today is self-compassion. Ooh, yeah, go for it. I'm sorry. Josh, Josh has to take a quick bathroom break, but we'll keep going. We'll keep going. Um, yeah. Um we need you so much.

SPEAKER_02 34:39

You know, this is something that when you're doing group therapy, I feel like when you bring this up in the room, there is a little bit of that response. I know you were kind of kidding about the response of like, ooh, yeah. But I think there is a little hush that kind of falls over the crowd.

SPEAKER_00 34:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:59

And I think there's a lot of reasons for it. One of them, though, is I think people really feel at a loss of how to engage with being loving and nurturing and kind to themselves.

SPEAKER_00 35:14

Yeah, like how do, you know, it's like, oh, that's all well and good to like love yourself. Right. But how the hell do I do that?

SPEAKER_02 35:22

Yeah. And I think some of the responses too are kind of like pff. Yeah, eye roll. Oh, yeah, exactly. Totally. Like a Tony Robbins kind of, you know, motivational. Right. What was Tony Robbins' whole thing of like you got this kind of yeah, like I thought I thought he was like a motivational.

SPEAKER_00 35:40

He no, totally, but I I never really listened to him. Neither did I. So maybe I shouldn't refer to him. No, I'd be curious, like, because he does have that vibe of just like go after it, you got this. Like, take a cold shower in the morning and hit the ground. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:54

Like just love yourself and do it.

unknown 35:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:57

And that's self-compassion. Well, why are you lazy about it?

SPEAKER_00 36:01

Just do it. Yeah, yeah, totally. Um, yeah, well, I think, and and sometimes it's like I notice in my own practice now, like, I'll even sometimes like defend against that response, like before I even get it. You know, of like, I know this might sound kind of cheesy, but go with me on this. It's actually like a practice, which we'll get into. But it is a more concrete thing. You know, it is actually something you can do. And you know, it does depend a lot on giving over to it, both conceptually and then doing the practice.

SPEAKER_02 36:38

Um yeah, there's a lot of commitment to it. And I think that's where I try to bring in a little bit more of that act lens. And yeah, because sometimes people will say, Well, okay, I'm gonna try to do self-committe. And this was something that in the fellowship I was in, I really appreciated a lot of the clinicians. Whenever somebody would say, you know, whenever they would challenge us as therapists to like try something in the therapy space, yeah. Um, they wouldn't use the word try. They and if we said, Yeah, uh, maybe I'll try that in the next session, they'd be like, what would it be like for you to say I'm gonna commit to that?

SPEAKER_00 37:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:15

And like, I'm gonna commit to being kind to myself or like, you know, so really like putting the onus on people and and let's not try this, let's do it. Let's just like try to really push forward with it. But I even sometimes re-like package it as let's just talk about how you're relating to yourself.

SPEAKER_00 37:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:35

And like, let's just see what that looks like.

SPEAKER_00 37:37

Yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_02 37:38

And you can kind of get in the back door a little bit and kind of see, oh, so you're really mean to yourself, right? Yeah, like you're really hypercritical of yourself, yeah. And that could be an avenue for them building more awareness to how much of compassion is lacking, and then there's maybe a little bit more buy-in into the idea of it. But that's just one no, that's so true.

SPEAKER_00 38:02

I actually was thinking similarly. I like that you almost went to like kind of neutral, right? Like, let's even just get a lit or get a whatever, take a temperature, get a baseline. What how do you relate to yourself? And because I even think sometimes like going the opposite or yeah, to a neutral place helps, you know, where it's like, okay, if you think self-compassion is cheesy, let's look at the opposite and how that's working to criticize yourself, to push against yourself in some way or other. Or yeah, it's like maybe you don't even know how you actually relate to yourself. Cause a lot of people don't, I mean, I in a given day am not like totally conscious at all moments of how I'm relating to myself. Trance. The tran okay, so which we'll talk about the trance of unworthiness. So yeah, and this is a Tara Bra concept who's like an amazing therapist and speaker. And yeah, like not knowing, being in this like trance, especially if you are relating to yourself in a critical, kind of resisting way, you get in this trance with it where you're not aware of it and you're beating yourself up or judging yourself, or in some way, she would call it like shooting a second arrow at yourself. And for me, like I'll most notice how I'm relating to myself, usually, if like a trigger happens, like something activating happens. And probably because I'm a therapist too, like I can tune into this awareness a little more. Like, what's I mean, here's what's going on outside of me, what's going on inside of me? Given that this just happened, how is it showing up in my body, in my mind? You know, how am I relating to myself? So, yeah, maybe this, maybe we want to invoke our special ladies who both Kristen Neff and Tara Brock, who talk a lot, famously a lot about self-compassion and both have concrete practices that are like pretty well researched for how to create some inner ease. Um, so why don't do you want to start with Miss Kristen Neff?

SPEAKER_02 40:18

Yeah, Dr. Neff. Yeah, she has a lot of research and she the both of them have great websites and TED Talks. So if people are looking for more information, um, but one of the things that's interesting about Kristen Neff, we won't go too much into it, is that idea that when we, you know, experience something, you know, negative, whatever that is, or judge it as negative, whether it's an emotion or something like that, we become, you know, kind of highly critical and we go into like these fight, flight, or freeze type of responses, which might not be the most effective for us, yeah, um, in those moments. And that's all about like survival. And fight, flight, or freeze is really important. Like we need that response.

SPEAKER_03 41:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:02

Um, and we might not throw ourselves into that response as much as we are when we're attacking ourselves or when we feel like something um, like an emotion or a thought, or even something external, like somebody's comment, like you know, then throws us into like we're fighting with ourselves, right? So fighting with ourselves would be like the negative self-talk. I think the freeze response for her would be more of like rumination, and we're just kind of like, yeah. And then the flea would be we're isolating and we're like not around other people. So her research and and the research that you know she synthesizes in her book talks about how we can kind of in those moments, instead of going to the fight, flight, or freeze, offset it with because we're mammals, this caregiving system, this mammalian caregiving system. Yeah, which then creates this sense of safety and warmth so that we can thrive in those moments and be more effective.

SPEAKER_00 41:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:55

And so she teases apart this idea that like self-compassion is not self-pity or self-indulgence, because I think some people get confused with that. Maybe not as much with the self-pity, but I think the clients I've worked with definitely the indulgence.

SPEAKER_00 42:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 42:10

I think people sometimes think, well, well, self-compassion, I can just do whatever I want then.

SPEAKER_00 42:14

Right. I'll eat all the ice cream in the freezer.

SPEAKER_02 42:17

Exactly. Or it's like I just I won't do anything the whole day. I don't have to do anything. Yes. That that's my off day. Yes. And and I think she really frames it nicely as you want to be, I think her quote is like happy and healthy in both the short and the long term.

unknown 42:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:34

And indulgence is just about short term.

SPEAKER_00 42:37

Right.

SPEAKER_02 42:37

You know, comfort. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 42:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:39

Um, so the last thing I'll say is she kind of has this like three-part approach to self-compassion, which is mindfulness, which we've talked a lot about here and we will continue to talk about, but really being more in contact with what's coming up for us, whether that be the critic or

Kristen Neff's Approach to Self-Compassion

SPEAKER_02 42:54

um those emotions that are difficult, common humanity. So this idea that we're all imperfect, and that's actually not something that separates us, right? Like if there's one thing or a couple things you and I both have in common, it's that we're human and that we're imperfect.

SPEAKER_03 43:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:08

And that could be isolating because we could say, You would never understand me, Kelly, because I'm so imperfect. But actually, if we were vulnerable in that, we could like connect on that, right? Like our imperfections could actually bring us together. Um, and then just the act of self-kindness, like how do we treat ourselves? Yeah. So that was long-winded.

SPEAKER_00 43:28

No, I love that. I love that. And and I do love that she really addresses that idea of you know, if I'm kind to myself, like I won't amount to anything. I won't ever push myself. I'll always just kind of like give in and indulge.

SPEAKER_02 43:45

Yeah, that's important because people don't want to do self compassion because they feel like they'll lose motivation. Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_00 43:51

And yeah, like compassion is different than that comfort. I always and and maybe. She even talks about this. I probably stole this from her on some level. But you know, like self-compassion is self-love and self-respect. There's that's a big piece of it. So it's like, of course, you can like have ice cream and rest and do things that you might call indulgent. But if there's a genuine need there and there's a sense of respect for the self, I don't have a lot of worry with like that being too much. You know, I think the self can regulate that. If you're if you're conscious, and that's why that mindfulness piece is so important.

SPEAKER_02 44:34

It's so important. And I think people are, or at least the clients I've worked with, sometimes they want the cheat code of like, yeah, how can I be kind but not sit with some of the discomfort or be mindful of some of the like icky like self-talk or my crit or even the shadow, like we talked about. Like, I want to be compassionate, but I don't want to work on that stuff. And it's like it does it kind of doesn't work that way. We kind of have to be mindful and be in that a little bit in order to know what to offer ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 45:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:05

And that's where rain comes in with Tara Brock, right? Where it's like in order to nourish or nurture, which you'll talk more about, like we have to be able to sit in that more.

SPEAKER_00 45:14

Yes. Yeah. So okay. And Tara Brock, it's interesting because I actually once kind of compiled research from both of them. And what was so funny is that I found them citing each other constantly in their research on self-compassion. Oh, really? So they're super connected. Yeah. Like both, like ideologically, they happen to be connected and they like know about each other and refer to each other. So Tara Brock, I think Kristen Neff takes a very neuroscientific lens of it, and all her research is in more of the science realm. Tara Brock is a little bit more of the Buddhist spiritual lens, but truly they do cite each other a bunch and they're both like very reliable. And I like probably like my personality is a little more like biased toward the Buddhist and that sort of mindset. So I gravitate a little bit more toward Tarbrok, but they're both so great. And Tarbrok talks a lot about how, and you mentioned this with the trance of unworthiness, you know, when you're like going about your life and something painful happens. There's this concept of like first arrowing and second arrowing. Like when something painful happens, that's like a first arrow hitting you. And what you actually control is what happens next. So do you shoot yourself with a second arrow, which could be a million things. It could be negative self-talk and self-criticism. It could be drinking, it could be, you know, binging. It could be, I mean, it could be really anything. And anything that you notice is out of line with your own values, um, to use like an act concept. And, you know, that's an option, right? That's something you can do. That's something we've all done as human beings that are imperfect. And when you do that, when you shoot yourself with that second arrow, you can often now. This is where, like, because I haven't like taught this in group, I get I forget if like it's the chicken or the egg, right? Does the second arrow like lull you into that trance? Or do you, by being in a trance, end up doing the second arrowing, or is it a little bit of both? I think it's probably both. Both. Okay. So you shoot that second arrow and then you get in this trance of unworthiness. You start to take things personally instead of maybe having this more accepting open lens, take things personally. What are the other two pieces?

SPEAKER_02 47:44

Um, I know one of them is reactivity. Reactivity. Almost like propelled into like this reactive state instead of being more open, flexible, responding. Yes. And the reactivity could be you engage in more behaviors to deal with whatever that initial error was or that pain to either numb it out or, you know, which moves you further away from your value. Right.

SPEAKER_00 48:07

Totally because, right, if you're hit with a pain, right? Like you get feedback from your boss or someone cuts you off in traffic, or your kid, you know, disobeys you or whatever, you know, if you shoot yourself with a second arrow, so to speak, there's more pain, right? Even if that's a way to cope, it's like there's gonna be more pain. And then often more arrows are needed to manage that. And it's this like you get in this trance. So this other option, when you're hit with that first arrow, that first pain, that event that you don't control that just kind of befalls you, you have this opportunity to practice self-compassion. And for Tara Brock, what that means is following this rain acronym, R-A-I-N. And so the first piece, and this is the part of it that I use the most in my practice. I don't, I don't usually go into describing the trance anymore, but it is it. I like to go back to it.

SPEAKER_02 49:07

But but I think the I think it is important though, even if you're not naming it, like you had mentioned before, I like what you were saying, like bringing that awareness to like we people don't even realize that they're so even if you don't go through the parts, I think it's important to be like, are you even are we even conscious of how often we're going to this place?

SPEAKER_00 49:25

Yes. Yes. Are you even noticing that this is happening?

SPEAKER_02 49:29

And like you said, is that working? Right. Like, what would it look like the other way? Right. And that's where the right rain comes from.

SPEAKER_00 49:36

Yeah. Yeah. Like I, and this is kind of actually an internal family systems idea. It's like, let's say your first arrow is loneliness. And so you reach for alcohol or drugs, and then you often feel more lonely, you know, because it's like this numbing of feeling, and it often like isolates you from your support system. And, you know, you beget the very things you're trying to protect against, often with the second arrowing. So this other option, this rain acronym, you know, you wanna, you wanna, I mean, you wanna place it in wherever you can, but ideally, right when the first arrow happens, whatever that pain is, you wanna the R being recognize it. So just recognize that there's like feeling here. There's a a response happening. And you wanna take some time to allow space for it. I usually have clients like find it in the body. Like, where do you notice feeling? You know, your boss sent you this email. I'll even have them sometimes you're picturing yourself reading it. Notice where's feeling? Recognize it where it is. And as like Kristen Neff would say, it's kind of like a friendly scientist. Like you're kind of nodding at it. Recognize it, allow it, make some space in the body for this, let go of any resistance to it, and then investigate it. And this I think you can do in different ways. I've probably morphed this a little bit into a parts work thing where you kind of talk with this part of you, basically asking this part of you, do you need to share anything? Is there something you need from me? This pain. And then being either nurture or nourish, like give that part of you some version of what it's needing, what it's asking for, some active gesture of care toward that part. If you get a clear direction with it from the part itself, go for it. If not just like general love and care. And it's like that active piece, right? Like send it that energy or that mammalian caregiving system, right? It's like mammals with their young, they like hold them gently and they rock them when they're upset. There's this loving, soft, like pull closer and soothe kind of instinct, which helps, which actually it doesn't create like an overindulgent young what it in the mammalian caregiving system. What it does is actually helps them internalize that and then be strong. Same for us as adults if we give that to ourselves. It's like a reparenting often in a painful moment. And I do think even the most skeptical people, if I can do a real practice of brain with them, it has power to it. I think so. People can feel that energy. And I think the most powerful piece to your point is just the notice of it. Right. Like, oh, this is going on. How am I engaging with this?

SPEAKER_02 52:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:47

I've even done it with a lot of people with physical pain.

SPEAKER_02 52:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:50

Like sciatica, you know, headache. Truly things where they're like, what's a meditation gonna do? Right. And it's like incredibly powerful because it's like releasing all of the resistance to it, yeah, creates so much more ease.

SPEAKER_02 53:08

I think you can also be disorienting to people in that investigate part of it because we'll we are not asking why it's there.

SPEAKER_00 53:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:19

Like we're not searching for the why in that moment. Yeah. And I think a lot of people that I work with want to know, but why is this pain here? Or why isn't it? Why isn't it going?

SPEAKER_03 53:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:29

Like, why is it me? Why is like a lot of just whys that actually make people more maybe critical because they answer that with whatever core beliefs they have or whatever shadow parts, and they say, well, it's happening to me because I'm a fuck up or I'm a f, you know. So I think the investigate is also a relearning of how do we sit with this without our mind wanting to make like a A plus B equals C type of sense of it. Yeah. It's more of no, we're just like being with it and relearning how to we don't need to know why in order to offer ourselves compassion. Totally. I mean, it'd be nice to know the why. Yeah, it's great, but maybe in this moment that's not the work we're doing. It's right. How can we just love ourselves and be there for ourselves in this moment?

SPEAKER_00 54:14

Totally.

SPEAKER_02 54:15

Yeah, it's so because the why also has like a almost like a underpinning of like deserving, yeah, deservedness or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 54:24

Yeah. Well, especially because so rarely can you actually get to why am I having this situation now? Right. And then we often fill it in with

Tara Brach and the RAIN Method

SPEAKER_00 54:33

like some core belief instead. Yeah. And you know what's funny is like I will even say to clients sometimes, like sometimes even knowing the why doesn't actually give you any healing.

SPEAKER_02 54:43

Oh, yeah. I think our minds think it's gonna, I think that's such a great point. I I think a lot of times we tell ourselves the narrative, if we knew the why, we wouldn't be in the situation we're in. And a lot of times that's not the case at all.

SPEAKER_00 54:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:56

Like we're still in this situation, even if I know how I got here, right? I'm still here right now. Totally. There is there is a meditation I can't remember if it was maybe either Tar Brah or Frison Nef, but I remember the one line in it was, and it's stuck with me for so long. Like, whatever it is, it's already here. Let me feel it.

SPEAKER_00 55:22

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:23

And that that to me, I go back to that a lot because my mind does want to figure it out a lot of times, and it's like, well, whatever it is, uh like I'm here, it's and it's here with me, and and I just need to be with it or feel it.

SPEAKER_00 55:37

Yeah, totally. I love that. That's hard to yeah. It's like, I mean, this is so true too, with like trauma. Like you could understand your trauma and have insight into it, which I truly believe is powerful, but and not be the whole picture. There has to be like, well, now that you have that knowing, how are you relating? Does it change the relating? If it does, great, but if it doesn't, then there's more work there, there's more self-compassion. Yeah, I remember explaining this once, this concept once to my dad. And we were talking about like, you know, like what it means. Cause I think he was asking me, like, what, you know, in your in your therapy groups, like what what are you actually like doing? Is it like they just talk? And it was something like that. We were like at dinner together. This was a long time ago. And I was like, well, today we talked about self-compassion. And he was like, so and he he my dad's a lawyer, and he was talking about like, like if I had a case and like it didn't go well, instead of like beating myself up, would it be like, okay, you got this, you can do better next time? And I was like, actually, it's a little bit more like, oh wow, I lost a case. Isn't that such a hard thing for someone to go through? Can I feel what I feel about this? And he was, I will give him credit, he was like, Wow, I've never thought of that. And like very few people think of that. Like, take a second here. You don't actually even have to be better. You can actually just care for the person who just lost something.

SPEAKER_02 57:09

Right.

SPEAKER_00 57:09

Because doesn't that hurt to lose something or to fail at something which is human?

SPEAKER_02 57:16

Yeah. And I think that's where trance gets tricky a little bit because the reactivity isn't always a behavior that's so blatantly like against our values. The reactivity could be, well, I gotta fix it. I just gotta like, yeah, I just gotta do better the next time and I gotta push myself and I gotta try harder, right? Like that's the reactivity also. So that can be tough because that's a very, that can be a very praised attitude to have in a lot of contexts where it's like, wow, this person, they're unflappable or whatever, right? Like they just pick themselves up and they just keep going. Um, and I think that can be a radical concept for somebody to be like, oh, that's actually a little bit of a trance that I'm in, or a little bit of a reactivity. And could we just sit with let's not move to the next thing or push ourselves? And yeah, like that example with your dad is great of like, isn't it hard to lose a case? You put all this effort in, totally, and and time and energy and feelings and all of that.

SPEAKER_00 58:16

And yeah, that's yeah, like feel with yourself. It's really hard, yeah. Totally, totally, and so so few people think of it, but it is really powerful. And I always find like, and I don't always get everyone on board with this, but it's like to me, it's like trading that like kind of like self-esteem, right? Like, I'm good and I'm good, and I've like done these good things and I've achieved the thing for like I'm deeply worthy and allowed to have every human experience out there and care for myself in it. To me, I'm like, it's so much more transcendent. And it doesn't mean you're not going to like challenge yourself and grow and have these like rich experiences. It's just less like the worthiness is weighted on them, that worth at birth instead. And actually like feeling painful feelings with yourself can actually like it almost like awakens that inner knowing of like, oh yeah, I always was worthy. And this is just a difficult moment.

SPEAKER_02 59:19

That reminds me of some of like my past experience with people and having their resistance to it. Cause some people do think it's just like positive self-talk or like the way they talk to themselves. And that could initially make them, well, that's inauthentic and this and that. And with that, I totally validate that that doesn't feel you know good, or that's not someplace they want to be. And then we could get like really behavioral with it, and then kind of just ask them general questions about like, well, are you eating breakfast? Are you scheduled, are you actually taking a lunch or if you're at work, right? Because those are ways you can show yourself kindness by actually engaging with your needs. And like, let's not even think about the way you're talking to yourself. Maybe that's later down the line. Let's just think of like behaviors you're engaging in. Are you with restricting, withholding like things that you deserve or you're worthy of as a human? Yeah. So I think it doesn't have to just be the relationship verbally or cognitively with ourselves, it can also be the behaviors that we're engaged in.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:20

Yeah, like those gestures or like basic self-consciousness, basics. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Are you like sleeping? Are you giving yourself space?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:31

And what you need.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:33

And another barrier is people are like, well, I don't feel loving towards myself.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:38

So some people want to wait for it to like click, where it's like, well, once I feel yeah, better about myself or that I do feel loving towards myself, then I'll engage in self-compassion. And again, it's like, yeah, we're not waiting for that. We're committing to it, and maybe that will ease and and the warmth might come after that, or your feeling, your experience might change. Yeah, totally. But we're not waiting for that to come. Right. Because we're gonna be waiting a long time. Right, right. So let's engage in this stuff first, yeah. Try it on, and then the feelings may come after that, which that can be hard to sell too, but totally.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:13

Yeah, sometimes it's like if I really get stuck with that, I'll almost do rain with that stuck part. Sort of like, let's recognize this like part that doesn't want to give up. Yeah, let's allow it and let it tell us why it's why it feels shitty about you instead of compassionate. And often that can like help a bit. But you're right, it's like it is a practice, it's a way of like sending energy to yourself. And yeah, it's like even I say the word energy, some people are like, oh, we're getting woo-woo. But it's like, it's really like you're sending energy to yourself no matter what. Yeah. You're in one way or another. So it's like first just notice, yeah, is it like this like resisting kind of tight energy?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:08

But the same people who think it's woo-woo towards the self don't think it's woo-woo a lot of the times externally towards others.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:16

Yeah. Yes, so true.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:18

So it's like, okay, this is woo-woo, but then it's woo-woo for you to send your energy of like love towards your kid then. Is that what you're telling me? And of course somebody's gonna be like, well, no. Right. And it's like, okay, well, you're special, like you're you know, yeah, you're you could have a little bit of irreverence there too, if you have rapport with that person to be like, okay, well, you do these things all the time externally to the people you care about, and somehow that's okay. Right. But when it comes to you, that's different. Let's what is that? Yeah, you're undeserving of it.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:47

Like, let's or like you're too good for it or something. Right. Yeah. Yeah, it it's true.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:54

Do you think that's like a distinctly American thing, or is it a universal thing? That's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:00

I bet you it the resistance to it is strong here than in other places. I'm I think there are many other cultures where the idea is like buck up.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:13

I mean, maybe not like European, like Western European cultures as much, but well, and I wonder too if if in a certain context, if a culture is more collectivistic, this may be seen as very indulgent.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:27

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:28

Or like very like almost selfish in a way. So I wonder I don't know. That's a good question.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:34

Yeah, it kind of depends. I know I'm picturing like children in China who have to go to school like 19 days a week and stuff like that. I'm like, I wonder how this would go over, but you never know. Also, like there's a Buddhist part of that population, and I'd be curious.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:49

Go to school 19 days a week, but be kind to yourself. Yeah. Do you say 19 days a week? Yeah. That's so many days. So many days.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:58

No Wednesday weekend. Yeah, they have 19 day weeks. But I mean, so much of and Tar Barack is a practicing Buddhist. Yeah. Um, so much of her, I think Radical Acceptance was her first book.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:14

Comes from lived experience and you know, her just journey throughout her life and as a Buddhist. I mean, if these prints, yeah, I mean, if Second Arrowing is there's so many Buddhists out there that if Second Arrowing is a concept, I mean, this must be a struggle for many people cross-culturally.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:31

Totally.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:32

Of getting into that. I mean, trance is kind of her is it her thing, or is that a Buddhist concept too?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:38

That is a Buddhist concept, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:40

So I mean, yeah, this this is like a struggle.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:43

But I do think the cross-cultural thing is interesting. I wonder if there are cultures that or countries that are just more loving to the self self. And how you would measure that, that would be interesting.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:55

Yeah, it's definitely not Judeo-Christian cultures. Right. This it's a lot of rejection of self or like perfecting of self, you know, like whip it into shape. And and you know what's funny is like Buddhist doctrine, Judeo-Christian doctrine, the goal is the same, which is like love and like love to the community, love at large. And just in like Judeo-Christian cultures, it's like perfect yourself and sacrifice self to give love. And in Buddhism, the belief is like the fountain of that love starts here. So when you honor the self and show love to the self, it pours out naturally. It isn't even effortful to be loving and accepting of others. And I've found like to to Tar Brock's like philosophy, in practice, that holds. Like when I, especially like we talked about shadow last episode, like when I can get in touch with my shadows and really show love to those parts of myself. If I see those in other people, I have this organic sense of like acceptance and truly like love for the person, especially if I see them struggling with it. Like it's okay. Yeah, I have that part. You have that part. I don't expect you to be perfect. And that's so felt. Right. And if there's a part of myself I'm rejection rejecting, I see someone else living it out. I'm often like tight and angry and you should be perfect too.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:26

There's the common some of the common humanity threads, right? Of like the imperfection is something that resonates with all of us.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:37

And do we lean into owning that and being vulnerable in that? Because that could actually be really healing and connecting with the right people, I guess. Yeah. And support. Um and certainly it could backfire. We could share our imperfections or be vulnerable about that, right? And people might reject us for yeah, totally. Um, so that's even like a commitment to try to remember our humanity.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:04

Yeah. Wow. I mean, I could talk about self-compassion forever. I love it.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:08

Yeah. It's a big topic. Yeah. And it's something that I think us included, myself included, need to practice it more than we're doing.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:18

Yeah, and it really like I feel like it comes up in all modalities of therapy. It's it's also kind of like trending, but it with good reason. It's in all like in almost like every CEU I'm in, like continuing education course. It's like there'll be some slide that's like, well, something that also helps with this is self-compassion. It's like with every issue and every approach, there's some self-compassion practice, whether it's with a part or it's in EMDR, imagine yourself giving compassion and you kind of work that into the sets.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:53

And yeah, it's I think I mentioned this probably to you, maybe not on the podcast before, but I went to uh continuing education, and the woman who was leading it was um, you know, part of your tribe, LCSW, um 35, 40 years in the field. She was also a trained um yoga instructor, and it just was like so much life energy. And the CEU was on um self-compassion and trauma. And I just remember her talking about trance, and somebody was like, Well, you know, do how do you engage? Like if you notice yourself in trance, and she's just like, you know what I do? I just put my hand up and I say, you know what, inner critic, I hear you, not right now. And I was like, that like the room was just like, that's amazing. I love that. She just was so like empowered and like it's there. I hear you, not right now. Like, I'm living my life, I'm busy. Like I'm gonna commit to like the things that are important to me. And I just she said it with such like it, she didn't even have to think about it. It's like I knew she was practicing that on a regular and that just worked for her. She just like found something that worked for her, and it was short and sweet and simple, but she put the hand up and she was like, I hear you. Not really.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:09

Yeah, and I think that's that's great. It's amazing because it's so simple, yeah. But it both like honors this resisting piece. Yes, and you rise above it. Like, yeah, I got this. Right. I hear ya, I got this. I'm I'm not gonna fight ya.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:25

I'm not gonna say go away. It's like, I hear you, just not right now. Like I'm doing, I'm doing this protection.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:32

Yeah, yes. I I will find that often with clients if they can find their own wording for something like that. And often it is some version of like, I got this. Yeah. The wise mind, I got this. Thank you. Thank you for stepping up. Thank you for your contribution.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:48

Yeah, thank you for your contribution.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:49

Yeah, yeah. I almost picture like, and you know this from having two kids, like, if like an elder sibling's trying to like step in and like parent the younger one, thank you. Oh, I've got this. Total, you know, leave the parenting to me. Leave the parenting to the wise mind. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so great. I love that.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:08

But anyway, that was just that's that has you know, those nuggets that you hear from other therapists and other things, and uh that is something that has just that's burned in my brain. Just seeing her do that. Totally.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:20

God, we should do that. Makes me think we should do a podcast episode on like all of our favorite nuggets from like CEUs and things like that that have like stuck in our.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:28

I wish I could remember the name of the guy who came. I think you and I were I don't think it was Chicago, maybe it was Chicago when we were working together. Anyway, I remember him saying, and this is something that was like, oh yeah, I knew this, but the way he said it was just like so profound. He was talking about substance use and addiction. And I remember him being like that one guy. He was yeah, I can't remember. So magnetic. But he was great. And I remember him being like, Oh, yeah, you can't selectively numb your feelings.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:54

And I just remember the way he said that he said it like he was like a preacher on a mountaintop.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:59

And I was like, Oh, right.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:02

Like you cannot select it.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:04

You can't selectively numb. You're numbing everything in your life when you're you when you're using a substance, right? Like, yes, you're kind of morphing it and having maybe more euphoric feelings in certain ways, and but it's all distorted, and you're not really numbing. You can't just numb the bad, you know, and it was just such a you can't selectively numb when he he was a great speaker. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:25

That was a nugget that I I want to find. I've I've like searched the internet for that guy, but I don't know his name. He was so it's almost one of those where you're like, did that really happen? Like it was so moving. I was changed after that. He also like talked about Eminem. Yeah, he was like how Eminem got clean and sober, and it was like every album was like, I hate my father, I hate my father, I hate my father, I hate my father. He gets sober, and then it's like I am my father. Yeah. And like have this realization of like I have embodied all this.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:53

And he was dropping lyrics the whole time. Yes, because he was like, you know what kids are? Drake. Yeah, Drake. Yeah. What did he say?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:00

I go from zero to a hundred real quick.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:01

Real quick. And I remember I think Casey was the one, she was the one who answered.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:07

Yeah, he just says all he goes, I go from zero to a hundred. She goes, real quick. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:12

And she was like Drake, and he was like, You gotta know what the kids are saying, you know. Yeah, you gotta be in. You gotta be in it. You gotta know because that's the way they're gonna talk in your sessions. And I just that that was great. Casey, wherever you are, I hope you're listening. Oh my god, shout out that was great. She didn't miss a beat on that. No, that was great.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:29

That was so great. Yeah, I know. I want to like think, or there was a woman we had once who came and talked about it was remember there was like that full sheer attachment program where people would go for a whole year to work on personality disorders. And she, I always go back to her saying, like, the number one predictor of success in therapy is relationship with your therapist. Like when all else fails, remember this. Yeah, and I've gone back to that so much where it's like like trust that this piece is so important to create that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:00

We had that team that came. Were you there when they were talking about grief and law? Their whole practice was on grief. Yes, that was an astounding that was great.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:09

And I've used stuff from that to this day.

unknown 1:13:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:12

Actually, my therapist just recommended a book on grief to me. Because my therapist has previously did a lot of grief work. She was saying she does a little bit less now. But she said the best book she ever read on grief. Oh god, I don't know where my phone is. Um, but it's a YA, like chapter book. Oh, really? Do you isn't do you see my phone, Josh?

SPEAKER_01 1:13:33

Uh yeah, it's in it's in the bathroom.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:35

Oh, it is of course of course it is, but I want to shout it out because I'm gonna read it. But she said it's like so great and she found it like the most moving, and her clients have too.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:48

Well, while you're getting that, if people are looking for more information on Tara Brock or Kristen Neff, definitely just type them into the Google machine. They got great um books. If you want to go to the source material, definitely read the books. But their their websites are great too, and they have a lot of talks. Yeah, they have meditations too. Like if you want to engage in more self-compassion, like meditation.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:09

Yeah, on Insight Timer. I know Tara Brock has a bunch. And I think Tara Brock now has a podcast, I'm pretty sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:16

She should if she doesn't already.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:17

And I think she does a meditation, maybe on each episode.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:21

And she wrote Radical Acceptance, but then I think she also wrote

Cultural Perspectives on Self-Compassion

SPEAKER_02 1:14:25

Radical Compassion, I think.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:27

Yes, yeah, that was her more recent one. That was her more recent one, yeah. Yeah, so great. Um, the book is called The Care and Feeding of a Pet Black Hole. Oh, and it's supposed to be so good. So I'm gonna read it. I'll report back.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:39

I mean, maybe if it's so great, we'll both read it.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:42

Well, I'm gonna look on the Chicago Public Library and see if I can reserve it.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:45

Yeah, totally.

unknown 1:14:47

All right.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:47

Okay. How wise is the question?

SPEAKER_02 1:14:50

How wise is it to iron your clothing?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:54

Okay. And uh iron or like steam. Because I never really iron. Right. See, there in lies like But steam has a similar effect. Okay. Okay. Well, because I wonder if I won't be able to answer really.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:11

Well, you are answering.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:13

Like, how is it to press your clothing?

SPEAKER_02 1:15:16

We're differentiating? I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:18

Do you have strong feelings about the difference between the two? I don't. I just think I there was a part of my life where I was very pro-iron I was.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:27

Oh, really? Oh. Oh my god, do tell.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:30

There was I we'll just put it this way. I was the only person on my freshman dorm, like level, that had an iron and an ironing board.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:41

Oh my god. I used to iron my t-shirts. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:45

Because I didn't want them wrinkled. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:48

So where did you learn that?

SPEAKER_02 1:15:49

Like your mom? Oh yeah. Big iron household. But it wasn't that my mom like put it on me. I wanted to learn. Like I would watch her do it and I'd be like, man, that looks good.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:01

I mean, it definitely can make you look.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:03

I want it to be like crisp.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:05

Yeah. You know. Totally. I feel like if I see someone with like really perfectly ironed clothes, I mean it almost makes your clothes look more expensive.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:12

Well, and like even when you're a kid and you don't really know about how to care for your jeans, you just throw them in the dryer. Yeah. And then when they come out, they're like a wrinkled mess. And I hated that. And I always wanted it to be like no wrinkles.

unknown 1:16:28

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:28

I know.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:29

Even your jeans. Oh, yeah. Wow. And when did you let it be?

SPEAKER_02 1:16:35

People would come to my dorm room and be like, I got I gotta do something. I got somewhere to be. Could you iron my shirt? Because ironing a button-down shirt is no joke. You gotta have a system to it.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:45

There's something about that role, you having that role. Like, I feel like I would want that role in the dorm of like people come to me.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:52

Like that was like my specialty, was like the button-down shirt.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:55

Yeah, like I got you. I don't need like a million buttons.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:58

I don't even know where to start with the button-down shirt night.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:01

I got you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:03

So I was very pro-iron for a lot of my life.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:07

And now I don't iron any. I don't even have an iron.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:09

But can you trace where it changed? Having children.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:16

Just apathy. Yeah. Complete iron. Complete not caring. I think COVID. COVID. Honest life course. We were on screens. Yeah. For work. And I think that was kind of like the thing that maybe a little bit prior to that. I sh uh of course, kids, you just don't have as much time, and especially when they're young and things like that. But I so I think it might have been a little bit of a slow burn, but I think the final straw was probably COVID.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:44

And then it was just like, why am I just not buying like wrinkle-free because they have shirts like why am I not just doing that? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:52

Are those as well made, or do you find I find I don't care as much anymore.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:57

So it's just kind of like, yeah, pop them in the dryer for a few minutes and then you're good to go.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:01

Yeah. Yeah. My clothes are wrinkled a lot. So it's like, I think it's so wise to iron, but like I don't really do it. I mean, I don't own an iron. But you own a steamer. I own a steamer and I do steam. Because you want to get some of the wrinkles out. Yeah. I mean, I find what's nice about a steamer is it doesn't make it as starchy, but it gets the wrinkles out. Right. And it's a little gentler on the fabric.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:27

Right. I would never go starch.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:30

Like, you know how some people have like the spray starch that they would put on their shirts. I wouldn't know. It was just straight ironing. Just the iron, okay. Just the iron. But if I really had like an event or something to go to, I would take my shirt to the cleaners and do light starch.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:44

Yeah. You know what's funny is like my mom was telling me, like, we kind of really don't want to be taking her stuff to the cleaners.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:51

And I was like, so hot and it just ruins your clothing?

SPEAKER_00 1:18:54

No, because it's like the chemicals are really bad for you.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:56

Oh, yeah, probably.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:57

And it's bad for the people that work there.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:59

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:00

So I'm like, it's funny because I was like, it's hotter than hell in there. It's like boiling in there, yeah. It's like I thought she was gonna say it's expensive, and she's like, Oh, I s I used to do it all the time, and she's like, I've heard it's so bad.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:12

Well, how do you suppose you get your really big blankets cleaned? I mean, it's a good question.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:17

I guess try to stuff them in the machine. Yeah, or maybe a laundromat, like there's one down there.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:25

I said get them cleaned.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:27

Well, you can send him out. I guess if you do that like every six months or something, that's probably fine. Maybe like limit it. But yeah, I think there's like some toxic chemicals at these and even these like there's a green spin cleaners here, which I've taken stuff to. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:47

That's why we haven't been to dry cleaner.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:50

I know that's why I've been a little skipped.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:51

We haven't taken it in weeks, maybe even months. I know. Has it been since the polar vortex?

SPEAKER_00 1:19:58

The polar vortex. Wait, last year.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:00

There's that really cold day that I took our stuff back from the dry cleaner. Oh, yeah. And then our garage wouldn't open, and I was like stuck outside and had to park our car out on the street.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:10

I think I've been.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:10

I was carrying like toxic garments, which I didn't even know at the time.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:14

Probably all that cold air, like guys.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:16

I know you've gone, you've probably been like three times since then.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:18

I think I've been since then, but I've been like second guessing it a little bit. Yeah, I don't know. I think it's like not the best. But sometimes with like if something I'm gonna wear to a wedding or whatever, I'll still do it. Or to get stains out, special stains.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:35

I got some stuff in that dry cleaning pile, some special stuff.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:39

Guess I'm just gonna throw it out.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:41

I mean, I will. We'll see. We'll see if they can throw it off the balcony. Just go over here and toss it out.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:51

Problem solved. Talk about why. So it's self-compassion.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:55

But I do think there was a letting go for me of the ironing. I think it was like an over controlled behavior a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:02

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:04

Like a rigid, I it needs to look a certain way, and I couldn't tolerate if there was like wrinkles.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:09

Yeah, kind of like a not to pathologize it, but well, it's like my thing with sunblock, like I can't leave the house without sunblocking. It's like that is a little much. Yeah, and letting go. I think I became most liberated to wear my clothes wrinkly when I was in New York. This was like a few years ago, my friend Leah, who we visited the other week, like I remember visiting her. And you know, New York, like people are clothes and fashion, and like looking around New York City, and I was like, everyone's clothes are wrinkled. Right. And I was like, you can just wear wrinkled clothes, like no one cares. It's okay. And it was liberating. I remember I was like, these people look cool and their clothes are wrinkled. Yeah. You know, like maybe there's a lot of tourists, or there's like people coming from wherever and business people in and out packing a suitcase. It's like your shit's wrinkled. Who cares? Stained is like not so okay, but like wrinkled. Yeah. Who cares? Yeah, you traveled. What are you gonna do?

SPEAKER_02 1:22:06

I think traveling helps you tolerate that a little bit too. Yeah, because it's like, well, it's in a suitcase and now it's not, and you're gonna have some wrinkles. It is what it is. Yeah. I'd be curious to hear what do you think? Is it wise?

SPEAKER_01 1:22:22

I was about to I was about to throw my clothes off the balcony. Well, okay. Perfect.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:26

Yeah, I can't picture you ironing.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:28

No.

How Wise Is It to Iron Clothes?

SPEAKER_01 1:22:30

I would let you iron it.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:32

Oh, that's so cute.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:34

Do it. Or if you were like, Josh, iron all my stuff, you know, I would do that. Like it would be a nice, it would be a nice menial task. I'd listen to some dirty projectors and just crank it away.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:45

Yeah, you do like a menial task.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:47

Yeah, I don't know why I said them. I haven't listened to them since last time we went driving.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:51

Well, dirty projectors, laundry.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:53

Oh, thank you for understanding that. That makes sense. Um You gotta feel a little dirty in clean. I think, well, what's the what you always say? And I don't know if we've said it on the pod, but it's like with clothes, there is a wisdom to kind of like really owning your look.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:11

And I can't, I can only prescribe for me. I think I'm like a wrinkly guy, so I'm gonna wear wrinkly clothes.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:18

Yeah, like you like like scruff.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:20

I kind of like being like, whatever, I don't give a fuck, which is like not, of course I give a fuck about a lot of stuff, but I think you like an undone look. I like an I like an I'm not trying too hard look. Yeah, everybody. With my movies, with my clothes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:38

Yeah, I think that works for you.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:39

With my movies and my clothes only. Yeah. Yeah. So not having an ironing board.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:44

Yeah, with your movies and your clothes, definitely not with your editing. Well, no, I just mean like you're very diligent and detailed.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:53

Yeah, sometimes to make it look like I'm not trying too hard. No, that's not I don't know. No, my I guess my editing can be pretty crisp.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:59

For anyone out there listening, want to hire me to edit your movie? It's crisp. Nice plug. That's bare, like, it's not a wrinkly edit.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:12

Um, and I will throw in an extra.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:14

I think if you got an iron in your hands, it'd be over. I like any medial task.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:19

I like any menial task.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:21

I'm pretty much an automaton.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:24

There is something, I mean, hugely satisfying about seeing a completed shirt pants once it's ironed. It's like perfect. Yeah, yeah, it's true. The thing that sucks about irons or the ironing board just sucks. Like you gotta put it on the back of a door or something. It's yeah, an apartment living, it's crazy. Awkward. You're inevitably gonna burn yourself on an iron. Oh, my friend growing up did her whole hand. I burnt my hand on it. You know, it's dangerous.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:54

Danger, yeah, and even the steamer, it kind of like spits a little bit. Oh, yeah. I usually put a t-shirt over it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I have one of those Joy Mangano ones, which do you remember that movie Joy that Jennifer Lawrence was in?

SPEAKER_02 1:25:09

No.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:09

Well, it's about this woman, Joy Mangano. And I bought one of her products.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:13

Did you see it?

SPEAKER_00 1:25:14

No, I heard it wasn't that good. Yeah. No.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:18

I've never been heard of it.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:19

It's like uh, it's who's that guy that she works with a lot, that director. Oh, American Hustle.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:25

And Silver Lion's playbook?

SPEAKER_00 1:25:27

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:28

David O'Russell? Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:29

David O'Russell.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:30

Joy.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:31

Joy. A joy to work with. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:33

She was like the first female millionaire, I think.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:36

Jennifer Lawrence?

SPEAKER_00 1:25:38

Yeah, yeah. Totally. Okay. Well that's a good one. You know what?

SPEAKER_02 1:25:43

Maybe it was wise at one point in my life to own an iron ironing board. And for all the future recordings, I'll just wear a wrinkly t-shirt. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:51

I think here, it's like, I don't know if it's wise or not to iron, but I think it is wise to be able to live in a wrinkled shirt.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:00

I think that's the way. I I don't think it's wise to feel like obligated to iron. There you go. But if it brings you joy, you love the process, you love your clothes being ironed. I wouldn't shit on it.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:12

Yeah, you're gonna go to some event.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:16

I loved the process for years.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:18

And the outcome, even for decades.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:20

You grew up in a strong iron family. Is that what you said? Yes. I was like, that needs to be the name of your autobiography.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:26

Strong. Strong.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:28

Strong iron family. The story of Jonathan Butts.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:31

Iron Family. My book will have Andrew in there. So Jonathan Andrew Butts.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:37

Oh, I love that. Even more iron. Even more strong.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:40

J-A-B Jab. My brother's initials are Jab as well. Wow. That's strong. Jacob Aaron.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:47

Oh, I was gonna say Arthur.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:49

Which I believe his middle name is spelt as again, your tribe, the Irish would spell it A-R-I-N, which I believe is more of a Gaelic-Irish name.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:59

Well, it's funny when you said Jacob Aaron, I was like, it sounds like a Jewish name.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:02

Two Jewish. Well, both of our names are from the Old Testament. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:07

Yes, that's right.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:08

Yeah. Our first names, at least.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:10

But you're a child of Christ.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:13

Yeah. Good point. So, but you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:16

And that's how we got to Iron.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:18

He fucks with both testaments. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:20

Yeah. So, um, but yes, a strong iron family. Yeah, love it. And I broke away from it.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:26

Yeah. No wrinkled shirt. No, you're living in a wrinkled shirt and you're liberated.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:30

Liberated. I love it. We solved it all again.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:33

We solved it all.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:34

I can't believe we do this every week and we solve it every time.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:37

I know. That's great. It's a real.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:40

It is great.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:41

It's really satisfying. It's vital.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:43

It's vitality at its essence. Yeah. What do you plug in?

SPEAKER_00 1:27:47

Plug in really just myself. Just how great I am. Shamelessly. If you uh want to work with me, if you have questions about the pod or topics, or or yeah, if you're like work in the space or just for some reason you want to potentially come on the pod. Come on the pod. You can always shoot your shot. You know, send us an email or send me an inquiry at kkpsychotherapy.com. Um yeah, and if you want to work with me, you can shoot that inquiry there too. Um, yeah, so that's me. That's where you can find me. How about you, John?

SPEAKER_02 1:28:21

Yeah, uh, you can always reach out, but's buttz. Jonathan at gmail.com. And you don't have to be a therapist to be on the pod. Yeah. We welcome anybody. So certainly if you want to be on, reach out to one of us.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:33

Totally.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:34

Josh.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:35

Astronomers, metal, metallurgists. Uh, I think maybe How do you pronounce that word? Metallurgist. Metallurgy. Metallurg. Wait, metal metallurgist. Someone who dabbles in metal. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:46

Oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:47

Like a like an iron worker. Oh, oh, oh.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:50

Yeah, that's where that comes from. Or like an alchemist if we're going to do that. Alchemist. We'd love to love an alchemist.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:55

We've had a hypnotist.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:57

Um, I'm just gonna plug Kelly because she's been a great wife so far. And John's been a good friend. Um, we haven't been married yet, but I like him a lot too.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:08

Not a great friend, but a good Well, solid.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:11

Um I haven't made you a birthday playlist yet, and that's because you haven't earned it. So I will. It's actually because I didn't know your birthday. That's okay. But now I do. So spoiler alert. Yeah, what the heck?

SPEAKER_00 1:29:24

I wanted to keep it all to myself.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:25

That's okay. Yeah, I'll uh yeah, I'll make you an extra playlist for I'll uh but yeah, I'm at joshbayerfilms.com, and that's my website. You can contact me there. J O S H B A Y E R films.com.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:42

Okay, thanks everyone.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:43

Thanks for stand by everybody. See you later. Bye.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:45

See ya.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:46

Bye.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:47

The Wisemind Happy Hour Podcast is for entertainment purposes only, not to be treated as medical advice. If you are struggling with your mental health, please seek medical attention or counseling.