The Wise Mind Happy Hour
Two therapists musing about the idea of an inner wise mind and how to connect with this psychic space in different contexts.
The Wise Mind Happy Hour
how wise is TALKING ABOUT YOUR FERTILITY JOURNEY?
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Jon is literally on vacation (he is sorely missed) so we decided to take this opportunity to talk about our fertility journey. How wise is THAT?
- music by blanket forts -
Summer Schedule And Two-Host Night
SPEAKER_00Hello and welcome to the Wise Mind Happy Hour. I'm Josh.
SPEAKER_01I'm Kelly. Welcome. Yes, Josh and me are recording again this week because we had some scheduling struggles with our summer schedule. And we were going to try to do a virtual episode with John, a remote episode. But even that was like difficult for all of us to schedule. So we miss you, John. But tonight, this evening, this Sunday evening, Josh and I are recording, it's just the two of us.
SPEAKER_00So nice. So intimate. So intimate. How exciting. You won't be able to. Well, you will be able to see this on YouTube.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. Check it out on YouTube. But tell me, how are you this evening? How are you feeling?
SPEAKER_00You asking me?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Pretty well fed because I just ate a banana.
SPEAKER_01Oh, nice. You did. I didn't even see that.
SPEAKER_00I was no, I wasn't displaying it prominently. You were upstairs. So I did it in secret. I snuck a banana. I'm like, shouldn't I have a banana now? No. Should I pause the pod?
SPEAKER_01No, no.
SPEAKER_00You're a little hungry.
SPEAKER_01No, the only reason it's not like I want to like control your eating at all. It's one of those where it's like, I'm gonna make dinner for both of us later. You almost think to yourself, you're like, I want us to be the same level of hungry, so I make dinner at the right time, that we both like absolutely enjoy it. It's more of my like even like hosting OCD. You know, like it's in that neighborhood.
SPEAKER_00Maybe I shouldn't have had that banana.
SPEAKER_01No, oh my god, no, no. It's like more, I'm gonna be curious about if that means I should push it back a little bit when I start. You could push it back, but also like maybe I won't, and we'll just go with it.
SPEAKER_00I wanted to be extremely hungry for dinner, but I also wanted to be not extremely hungry
Farmers Market Dinner And Cooking Talk
SPEAKER_00for this pod. Yeah. So I could feel my stomach rumbling.
SPEAKER_01So I think what we'll do is we'll just go ahead with our normal plan. What are we gonna make? Josh and I walked down to the Logan Square farmers market down our block today, and we're like, you know what, why don't we just get all of our dinner stuff from the farmer's market? Which, man, was such a magical experience. We weren't even sure we were gonna do it, and then it was just like we're over there, and I'm like, I'm gonna make a salad. I want like a soft, you know, green, like a delicate leaf. So we got farmer's market romaine that looks pretty good, red onion, like with the big roots still coming out of it. A feral onion, corn right off the ear, these fresh tomatoes. Oh, and then we got these pasture raised pork chops. And we also ended up getting eggs. We're not gonna eat those for dinner. But when we were checking out with the eggs and the pork chops, I asked the woman checking us out, do you get these eggs? Like, do you love them? And she's like, Yeah, I'm the farmer. Of course she is, like, and it's her stand. I don't know why I thought it was like an employee of the farm.
SPEAKER_00We talked to a farmer, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Sometimes you think like even at a farmer's market, there's like some corporate element, especially if it's that big of a farmer's market, like the woman's square one. But I love that she just kind of gave me the reality check of like, I'm the farmer. And I was like, oh my god, so of course you eat these eggs. She's like, Yeah, you're gonna love them. There is something so utopian about like buying your eggs from the farmer. It's sustainable. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's great.
SPEAKER_00We should have her on the pod.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's like it was so nice. So we're I'm gonna make that stuff later. So it'll be this like kind of summer corn salad with pork chops.
SPEAKER_00You're gonna reverse sear the chops.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I'm actually I've never done it with a pork chop, but I do it often with like cuts of beef. So I'm like gonna reverse sear it, meaning you cook it like low and slow for a bit, and then you only sear it on the cast iron right at the end.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. What's a sear?
SPEAKER_01A sear is like when you get a pan or like a cast iron skillet really kind of ripping hot, and then you put oil on and then you put like the meat or whatever it is on there, and it gets like a brown crust. Like it gets some that like my yard reaction, which is like the the crusty, and that imparts like a lot of flavor. I love crusty food. Yeah, same, same. I know it kind of like makes everything taste good to sear it. The only things I think that I don't bother searing are like sometimes they'll tell you in certain recipes where it's like a long braise or like a bologna is like they'll tell you to like sear the ground beef and the pork at first, and then you put a bunch of like tomato and wine, and sometimes even like milk, and you stew it for all this time, and it's like all of the sear goes away. Yeah, I guess maybe there's a slight taste difference, but like I might might take a more sophisticated palette than mine to detect it because I I never do.
SPEAKER_00You're not so sophisticated, you're like a baby eater. I walked her right into that.
SPEAKER_01I literally live with a sophisticated sophisticated eater.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm eating corn for breakfast, yeah, corn for dinner, a sandwich for lunch.
SPEAKER_01I think we both have probably the same level of palate sophistication.
SPEAKER_00You just know more words.
SPEAKER_01I exactly. I just know more words.
SPEAKER_00I've pretended to know what sear means for so long. I've probably looked it up multiple times and I'm just not retaining that knowledge.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it almost kind of like it's kind of on a monopeia, a little bit like sear. Searing. Where it's like when you put it on, it's like right. Like that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, broil, I really struggle with. It's like what it's like a it's like you're boiling it, but also it's very different than boiling.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. Even though it's only one letter different.
SPEAKER_00You broil hot dogs, right?
SPEAKER_01No, broiling, you'd never really broil something to cook it. You only finish it in the broiler. So meaning you put things in the broiler and it's like an open flame basically over them, and it gets it like bubbly and really browned.
SPEAKER_00Do we own a broiler?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, there's a broiler at the bottom of that oven.
SPEAKER_00Oh, the literal oven? The literal oven, yeah. Yeah, do we have one in our last place?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it was built into the oven.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01So I broiled a couple things in there.
SPEAKER_00It's got that little thing, you put it in the little metal, it's almost like a kind of like a curvy metal, right? I think that's why I think hot dogs, because you could picture a hot dog sliding into those curves.
SPEAKER_01Maybe some people broil a hot dog right at the end. I don't know. I've never really been a big hot dog cooker. Although I like a hot dog out out in the world. Sure. Chicago, for God's sake.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you'll eat a dog.
SPEAKER_01I'll eat a dog, I'll eat a super dog any day.
SPEAKER_00Once a year, you'll eat a dog.
SPEAKER_01I would eat one more than that, but I think there are, you know, people say they're like shorten your lifespan or whatever.
SPEAKER_00So does living.
SPEAKER_01But it's like, I mean, we can't go down that road of so many foods.
SPEAKER_00No, I'm going down the road of eating hot dogs.
SPEAKER_01Exactly. But yeah, so that's our dinner plan.
SPEAKER_00So should we
Why We Are Sharing Our TTC Journey
SPEAKER_00get into it? Let's get into it.
SPEAKER_01Let's get right into our topic. Why not?
SPEAKER_00Okay, why not?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we were gonna talk today. Well, do you want to intro it?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we're gonna talk about our fertility journey, and we're gonna talk about the wisdom of trying to have a baby, keeping your head on straight, yeah, and being honest with your listenership about what the journey's like.
SPEAKER_01And yeah, we're kind of like checking in at a midpoint here.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you're four and a half months pregnant.
SPEAKER_01No, I'm not pregnant. Oh, but yeah, we're like on the journey. So we figured, why not? Why not check in and give like an update on it? Um So where are we at, boo? I wonder if we should like kind of start at the beginning. Yeah. You know, you and I, well, this is a nice thing for you and I. We've never had much natural disagreement about having kids. No, I guess not. We we looked out in that way. Like, well, when I met you, you said you wanted three kids.
SPEAKER_00Is it luck or is it curation?
SPEAKER_01It's a little bit of both. I think some of it is luck.
SPEAKER_00Well, I was pretty quickly weeding people out who said they didn't want to have kids.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. It's not that hard to find another person who wants kids. So many more people want kids than not.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's almost impossible these days.
SPEAKER_01Well, you can find people our age who don't want kids, or in the younger generation for sure. But I feel like we lucked out in like our timeline was pretty similar. Like the desire, I mean, there's so little of the timeline you can control, but neither of us was like ambivalent about having kids.
SPEAKER_00No, we've been playing hustle offense.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, what do you mean by that?
SPEAKER_00I mean we moved in with each other after less than a year of dating each other. Yeah. Is that true?
SPEAKER_01It would have been a year, two months after, so nine months. No, ten months.
SPEAKER_00Okay. And then marriage was to come soon.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Engaged less than a year after living together.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, talking about engagement probably on the first date. It's like, do you like Tame and Paula? Yes. Do you like Taylor Swift? Yes. But you didn't believe me. And then do you want to get engaged? Yeah. And then you like your parents? Are you close with your parents?
SPEAKER_01Isn't it funny? Like first date discourse. When we're out now, I see so many like first dates, and you can totally tell by like the cadence of the words, even if you're not hearing like cadence of the words, the body language. And yeah, there is this like we gotta cover all the topics.
SPEAKER_00What do you think about cadence for a child's name?
SPEAKER_01I don't like it.
SPEAKER_00Cade for short.
SPEAKER_01Cade. Cade is cute. Yeah. We know a Cade. We know of a Cade.
SPEAKER_00I think I'm set on it.
SPEAKER_01Okay, then done.
SPEAKER_00Okay. If we have a boy or a girl, it's Cade. Any gender identity, Cade. But we're starting at the beginning.
SPEAKER_01So, well, I remember you wanted three kids when I finally and I said like Max two for me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And I think I even then introduced you to the idea of like, I could be happy with one.
SPEAKER_00Max to a girl named Max and a guy named Max.
SPEAKER_01Twins both named Max.
SPEAKER_00That's fun.
SPEAKER_01We slowly came together on the number over time. I don't even remember like trying to convince you.
SPEAKER_00I forgot I told you three.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Because I come from three.
SPEAKER_01Well, you come from three. And I come from three as well. But you know what? I wasn't worried when you said that. Because in my mind, I was like, at the age we are, three kids is kind of a long shot. Not not really, but like I don't have to like freak out that like often there's a fertility intervention at that point. But we're learning actually, and this this more of this will come in this pod, but really these fertility interventions can be pretty robust. Like you can, we could realistically have three if we wanted that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but I don't even know if we want that.
SPEAKER_01No, we don't want that. I I certainly do not want three myself. But I we know we want one.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Word on the street is because I'm talking to a lot of parents lately. Okay. And here's the word is that one is easy, but you only realize that after having two.
SPEAKER_01Oh, okay. Interesting.
SPEAKER_00But maybe we can just take the shortcut, have one, and know how easy that is.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00It might be even easier than zero kids.
SPEAKER_01Or it's like, is that like what does easy really mean? And like, I think that's all like sometimes people say something that isn't their present moment is easy. Like, do you know? Like, I I've had those friends in my life where it's like, I've probably been this person where you move on to the next job and you're like, oh my god, I didn't know the other job was so much better. You know, like grass is always greener. Like, yeah, I wonder. Sometimes the grass is brown. My sister Brittany said, when you have one kid, they more fit into your life. And they have three, and she's like, with three, like it feels like we have to really fit ourselves into their life.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. They have a rich internal existence.
SPEAKER_01And they have so much going on that you really like have to kind of mold to them a little bit more. You know, and even that philosophy is like can be like very culturally based. Like uh American parents, I think, like stereotypically like really put the kids first and the kids kind of lead the way. And like in France, there's like a famous book in France called Bringing Up Bebet. Oh, which maybe we'll read. Bebé elegante. All about how in France, like the kids just fit into your life and you bring them to all your adult stuff. Yeah. Which is interesting. Like, even as I say that, I'm like, I have such a reaction to like either or, you know, I think it's like a very complex integration of give and take. I don't like the idea of like dragging children along to all adult things.
SPEAKER_00No, that's and not considering their subjectivity in it. No, like we're gonna be seeing so much dog man. Totally, but then we're gonna take them to see all the horror movies, or like a museum, yeah. Sure.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. In all seriousness.
SPEAKER_01Or like, yeah, it's like I I definitely think and and only children, it does seem like definitely do all the adult things a lot. Which is okay. You know, there's there's pros and cons to that for sure. We're gonna be boozing at too. Well, wait, okay, let's get back on our journey. Yeah. Stop. We are slowly merge to both kind of being like maybe one.
SPEAKER_00Maybe one.
SPEAKER_01You know, and we're both like really I a lot of people are dedicated to their careers, but I think it's like we want to put a lot of like TLC into our careers and expand them kind of all the time. And I want to be realistic too about like what that requires. And right. I do not want to stretch myself too thin. I I do. That's where we really differ.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I don't actually want to though. I feel like lately I've been so much trying to do less of that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and like give yourself like some peace.
SPEAKER_00I'm just thinking earlier in a relationship, I just got this flashback of you being, don't you want peace? Did I say that? You always want chaos. And then I feel like I probably said something along the lines of, yeah, I like chaos.
SPEAKER_01Well, yeah, because your baseline, like you like to be more doing millions of activities more than I do. I like a lot of room for like self-care and but I don't even know. Slowing down, but I think we've m met in the middle with, don't you? Yeah, we've changed, and I think we're both happy about it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Like I'm able to take on more than I think I am.
SPEAKER_00I know, and I'm able to take on less than I think I am.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you're able to relax.
SPEAKER_00I'm able to relax. Yeah. Without boozing. Yeah, without any kind of like it's probably why I used to drink so much alcohol.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So I was like, I'm gonna be a machine and I'm also gonna be an alcoholic.
SPEAKER_01No, you would drink you drank more than you do now. Way more. Yeah, and now you know how to like let go while doing less of that. And maybe like therapy is a big piece of that. Oh, I forgot about therapy. Yeah, meditation too. Well, therapy is a big part of our like fertility journey. Yeah, yeah. How do you think it's affected your I haven't been talking about it that much lately? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Or I just got a new therapist. I'm on to my third therapist in less than so many years.
SPEAKER_01Well, you got referred to something.
SPEAKER_00I got referred to a real OCD therapist. Yeah. And I'm forgetting that. Is it ERP that I'm doing?
SPEAKER_01You're doing ERP, but that book that you just got is a little different than ERP.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I haven't looked at the book yet.
SPEAKER_01It's called Inference-based CBT, which is like a newer. I'm actually not trained in that, so I I defer to you on it. But you're just starting.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I haven't even cracked it open.
SPEAKER_01But my my on it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we'll do an e on that once I have knowledge base. But for now, I would say I was gonna do EMDR with my middle therapist, we'll say my therapist that I'm taking a break from to see this other therapist that she referred me to.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00She kind of felt like before going into EMDR, I think she was just feeling like she's not the most well-versed in the OCD realm. Yeah. And she wants me to see someone who's an OCD Maven. Yeah. OCD. I guess Maven's a Yiddish word.
SPEAKER_01Oh, is it?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. An OCD moistro. An OCD master. She knows more, she knows about OCD. Yeah. Zina, my middle therapist. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But Lonnie, my new therapist, all about the OCD. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01It's great.
SPEAKER_00But so yeah, I think she's still getting to know me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I'm sure I've brought up kids, but I guess I feel relatively grounded about it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's great. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It's not my major stressor right now.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Not right now. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Not right now. I'm pretty at peace with it. I I feel like I had a time where I really was freaking out about really freaking out more about being a dad, not even the fertility journey. Yeah. Like about not being able to listen to my headphones and not being able to do weed.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_00Which
Low Ovarian Reserve And Clinic Testing
SPEAKER_00I don't do anymore.
SPEAKER_01Should we get back to the timeline of it all? Or we can even explain, like, you know, how we even like started this. Well, I think I had mentioned this. Like I had to switch a medication that I take and be on this other one for a while. Then I was for a while. And I went to my OBGYN and was telling her we're like getting ready to start trying to have a baby. And she was like, Well, I'm just going to test her fertility right now. So she did before we even started trying. And she called me back and said that I had a little bit of low ovarian reserve, which like I'm not even a hundred percent sure what that means. But I think from what we've talked about, it means that like the reserve of eggs that you have is low for your age. But I'm realizing now I don't even know if it's low for my age. It might just be like low and being a little bit low at 37 is kind of normal. But or maybe I'm somewhere in the middle. Maybe I'm a little bit low for even the average 37-year-old. Yeah. Or the ideal for a 37-year-old. I don't know.
SPEAKER_00I don't know. You can you can massage the stats to tell you any story you want.
SPEAKER_01Totally. Well, well, because the reason I'm so confused on it is like the my regular OBGYN was like, I'm gonna send you even before you start trying to a reproductive endocrinologist to have them run a bunch of tests. So we first like met with the doctor there. Shout out to Mary Woodmola. We really like her. Shout out. She's so great. We met with her and she looked at the testing for my OBGYN and she was kind of like, those numbers don't really freak me out. So I'm somewhere in the middle, but we basically so far have just done a ton of testing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And in this process, for like a heterosexual couple, the woman has to do a lot more legwork in that. Like I had to go in for one cycle, I had to go in like every other day, you know, early in the morning to like get an ultrasound and blood work to kind of see if I was ovulating, which I did in that cycle. They do these like special kinds of ultrasounds, and there's something called a saline ultrasound where they like look at all your tubes and they look at everything. And all of that has been okay, it seems like. Yeah. Didn't they say your anatomy is gorgeous? That's nice of you to bring up. Um, basically, yeah, like nothing's blocked, nothing's like all that stuff she was happy with. Your tubes are taught. So at this point, we're kind of we're gonna meet with the doctor. We're not pregnant yet, but it really has not been very long.
SPEAKER_00No, it's been about a month of trying, shall we say? Yeah, of like we're in our second month of trying.
unknownYeah, right.
SPEAKER_00We're trying so hard.
SPEAKER_01I have this like app where I test and I see where my hormones are most of the days in the month, and it's a whole thing. But we're gonna meet with the doctor at the end of the month and see if like we want to try on our own for a little bit longer or start at some process that maybe she deems worth us doing, with like whether it be some support in the hormone department, certain medications, like we'll let her kind of guide us on that. Yeah. So we're like doing fertility testing, but we haven't done any intervention. We don't know yet if we'll need any.
SPEAKER_00There's a lot of uncertainties. Yeah. You could be on your way to pregnant as we speak.
SPEAKER_01Well, we have no idea.
SPEAKER_00Babies bourbon.
SPEAKER_01We're in a weird spot because most people that start going to the fertility clinic have been trying for a long time. They're often pretty disgruntled, disillusioned, or jaded, feeling not so hopeful. Yeah. And not everyone, but and we're like doing it at the very beginning. So I think we feel like in some way so positive. Like if we struggle, we're right there already connected, and we have the ability to get help so easily. And because of that, lowering reserve, we're covered by insurance. Like your low reserve could be a blessing. Well, in a weird way, it could be, or whatever, it can make things difficult. We don't know yet. And we also like it. I am able to relay to some of my friends like doing this stuff because we're all in different spots and we all have really unique pieces of our health to contend with in this. So it's I've been able to talk to my friends and feel really not alone in it, which has been great.
SPEAKER_00I think a lot of people are struggling with this more than you think.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00If you open up about it, people kind of come out of the woodwork. Totally. Because I remember early in this journey, you were kind of saying, We're the we're the only ones where this is so hard. And I know it can feel like that for a lot of people.
SPEAKER_01Well, yeah, and like the mind plays tricks, like because like we went to the farmer's market and I turned to Josh and I said, Everyone at this farmer's market is pregnant.
SPEAKER_00Well, it was literally true. Every single person there. There's no room for me to walk with all the pregnant bellies.
SPEAKER_01But really, like I, and of course, like that's how it is. Like when you're trying to do something and you're focused on something, you notice every single pregnant person. Or if you're if that's what you're focused on, that's what you notice. If you want to buy a new car, you're like noticing cars left and right. And we're
Pregnancy Triggers And Therapy Insights
SPEAKER_01we're out of the woods of buying a car for a while, and like I haven't really been noticing cars lately. It's like, of course, that's just like a trick in the mind. You know, I talked to my therapist this week. I don't even think I told you this. But I was saying to her, I was like, I I'm having this experience where when I'm on Instagram seeing someone pregnant. I said to her, I was like, I feel like all these influencers that I followed for just random different things, some of them are chefs because I love to cook. Some of them are like, you know, an interior design maiden. Or like some of them are into like fashion. Or so and some are therapists, of course, or some are just like these big influencers that have like podcasts that are probably seemingly in like almost everyone's feed. But that that's not even true. But like women my age, maybe so many of them are pregnant. I like notice that when I'll see them pregnant, I'll get this surge of like a hopeless feeling.
SPEAKER_00They beat you to it.
SPEAKER_01We were trying, she and I were trying to really explore it and not kind of assume what was going on there. And she actually does, she did sometimes does this non-traditional EMDR with me where I'll hold the buzzers and we just talk. And this was the first time doing that that I felt like, oh, my wise mind is like really accessible as I hold these. Like it really felt like the bilateral stimulation while just talking made me have like instant kind of insights as she and I explored. I was thinking about her. There, there was this one influencer who I do not know how she ever came across my page, but her whole brand was that she was sober. I get the feeling she like worked in the restaurant industry. She is a chef, and she had to like quit a job maybe because the industry was pretty toxic for someone trying to be sober, or maybe she was just she quit because it was like really fueling her alcoholism. And so I think she started an Instagram to like be able to cook and share her creative recipes and stuff without having to work in the restaurant industry, which is kind of full of a lot of substance use. Somehow she came across my page. I'm not sober, you know. Like I don't personally, it's not, it's not one of my personal struggles, like sobriety. So it's interesting that this like Instagram was like, okay, you're gonna like this person. Even her food, like I like it, but it's not. But all of a sudden, one day I was like scrolling this past week and she was pregnant. She had this like big pregnant belly. And I was like, kind of like, what? Like, I was like bothered by this in a weird way. So I told my therapist that, like, I was like, I furiously started looking through her grid to see like when she debuted this pregnant belly, and like, did she announce it? Like, what did she say? Did she talk about her journey? And I was like, what was I even looking for? A flaw. What bothered me about it was in my experience of her, she blinked and got pregnant. And for me, you know this, like, because I have autoimmune underlying autoimmune issues, I've had to switch a medication for an entire year. And I've been talking about having to do that with my doctors for years, like what I'll have to do when I want to get pregnant. And then done that, and now we're on this fertility thing. And and like I think I felt a lot of pain. And of course, I don't know her journey. I'm just seeing it through my own eyes. And just one day, poof, she's pregnant on my feed. And I think I felt that's how it is for other people. It's like they want to get pregnant, they're pregnant. And for me, I there's this feeling up or a part coming up, really, kind of saying, like, it's never gonna happen for you. Like, look at this journey. It's slow, it's you know, your first month of trying, not pregnant, you know, like this is gonna be a mud slide. Does that make sense? Yeah, of course. Shout out to my therapist for helping me like work through that and figure that out. And and she, you know, asked me, you know, a lot about the part, like observing it and noticing, like, if kind of like if I wasn't, and this is what you do, and the parts work, but if this part wasn't here and I saw her and I didn't feel hopeless, what am I like afraid would happen? Like, kind of what is its job? What is it protecting me from by kind of feeling hopeless? And this comes up for me a lot. It's like protecting me from being blindsided by something really painful. Yeah. Like not getting pregnant, like losing a pregnancy, or some kind of pain. The bubble can't be burst. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Because you allow yourself to blow it up.
SPEAKER_01My system is very, very afraid due to some trauma of like things that came out of nowhere and really changed my whole world. Yeah. One being like my parents getting divorced. That's a big one. And when I do AMDR, a lot of things go back to that. And just feeling like the experience of like how I know my life to be is like burst open. Things didn't feel real, like at school, like I was in a dream, sort of. Obviously, like the pregnancy was just like the catalyst for that understanding of like, oh, I have a part that gets like hopeless about things to protect me. That's part of this journey, like seeing what comes up for me. As we're in like all this uncertainty, yeah.
SPEAKER_00It really brings up stuff. I know. Sometimes you get hopeless.
SPEAKER_01I do, I you know that.
SPEAKER_00I know, I know that, and I know that part of what's helpful when that's happening is for me not to get hopeless. Yeah. But also not to so quickly kind of flip around and be like, well, you shouldn't be hopeless.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yes.
SPEAKER_00Because that might make you feel invalidated. Yes. But then if I match you, then you really feel hopeless. I'm very difficult to support in that space. So I think the key, and I can do this sometimes, yeah, is to hear you and kind of have this attitude of, yeah, this really sucks, but everything's gonna be okay. Yeah. Like a non-sugar-coated hope.
SPEAKER_01Well, and your hope is so blind. Well, you really like have a deep sense of hope about the future and getting what you want. Not not in a delusional way, in a very like grounded way. Yeah. It's like it's like confidence.
SPEAKER_00It is confidence. And I feel like my thing that will come up is I was talking about this in therapy last week, is I don't deserve it. Yeah, I'm a fraud. Everyone's gonna figure me out.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And they're gonna pretend to like me still, but behind my back, they just hate me and I don't deserve this. Yeah. And my life is hollow, I don't have values, I'm like a sociopathic narcissist, and I don't know who I am, even. And I have this idea of who I think I am, and it's all wrong.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, almost like so. Instead of yours being like a hopelessness, like I can't get the thing, you feel confident you can get it, but then it won't be good because you'll just feel like you won't deserve it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, at my core, I'm just rotten and I'm tricking myself into thinking I'm not.
SPEAKER_01Oh man. It's so hard. Like the human mind really can fight itself. Yeah, and then I can trick you into thinking I'm rotten. You know, we both get stuck in that, like this kind of unconscious, like pushing the other person away. Or like pushing the other person to kind of like reject us. We both do that.
SPEAKER_00And then when we stay, it's like, okay, got this. I got this chick in the bag.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it can feel good in a way that's a little sick.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I know.
SPEAKER_01But we're both in therapy, we're both working on it. Yeah, and we're doing I mean, I'll say, I think we're doing hard work in therapy. I feel like when I'm going week after week, I'm like, big things are happening and I'm feeling shifts. And I think that happened for me, that happens uniquely in like very in transitions or like very emotionally precarious times is when like is kind of the only time I make big growth steps. Yeah. So like I I genuinely am grateful for that, and I know I'll look back on this time and feel like this was really meaningful for it to unfold exactly how it did. Oh, yeah. The lava's moving.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Trying for baby, we just moved. I mean, that's it. It's two things.
SPEAKER_01Like all the kind of uncertainty. Yeah. I will say, like, I did a genetic test and it was like a carrier for a couple types of conditions, basically. And you were a carrier for two others, but luckily they weren't the same. We didn't match, we didn't align. Nice for us that we don't have to really worry too much about that risk. Yeah. So we're just like kind of figuring out, like in the next few months, if we'll need any intervention, if we'll get pregnant, you know, we don't know. And we're really wanting to be pregnant.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we'd be happy if it happened now.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I'd be happy because I could drink coffee again.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, Josh has like committed himself to not having caffeine until I get pregnant.
SPEAKER_00I was gonna do no caffeine and no alcohol. And then I, on the way to Father John Misty, asked you, Am I just being masochistic with a no alcohol? And you said, I think so.
SPEAKER_01I don't think you have to give up everything.
SPEAKER_00I think I said to you, is it meaningful to you that I'm not drinking alcohol also? And you said no.
SPEAKER_01Having a moderated relationship with it would be great. Like I'd feel like, you know, if you have a beer or a glass of wine or a cocktail out and you're not like drunk, you know, that feels like you're just enjoying yourself and we're both enjoying the moment. And yeah, if you were like really going intense with it, that would probably not feel good and we'd talk about that. Sure. I mean, that's definitely come up.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah, many a many a time. Right. I've got some issues.
SPEAKER_01Well, I think you you like, you know, drinking can feel like soothing for each. It feels soothing for anyone, really, pretty much, but you don't relate to like spending the way I do. You know. But yeah, I mean, I I think we have a good rhythm with it now. Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00Well, spending.
SPEAKER_01Well, actually, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I think so. You're like, I'm gonna get all the oldest clothes.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah, that's my new thing. Like, I every time I like am interested in some kind of new clothing item, I wanna see if it's on Poshmark or some other resale site and get a vintage version, a secondhand version. Which like I'm s excited about. Yeah, your clothes will have more character. I I will feel good about that.
SPEAKER_00Sustainable, more eco-friendly, yeah, cheaper, thrifty, less like over-consumer.
SPEAKER_01So I mean I'm excited about that. I'm not gonna never buy a new thing again, but I like like
Supporting Each Other Without Fixing
SPEAKER_01really going first to that source. I think it's nice. But yeah, like what do you think have been the hardest parts of our fertility journey thus far?
SPEAKER_00I think it's hard for me when you're in so much pain.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I really want to be the superhero husband that lifts you up. And I know sometimes I'm not that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I'll start blaming myself and convince myself I'm the cause of all your suffering.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I'm the reason you feel so hopeless.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I'm right now committed to trying to not do that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you've been pretty good about it this week.
SPEAKER_00For one week. Well, no, I mean it's just because it's so recent in my memory, but like I feel so hopeful about it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I guess I mean, I was talking about this already, just my fear of what having a kid will do to my self-care time and my alone time. Yeah. I'm just not feeling that right now.
SPEAKER_01Oh god.
SPEAKER_00And especially in our new place. I mean, a kid is gonna take up all the room and the whole house, but it just feels like we have so much space here. Yeah. I'm realizing in our old space I felt a little claustrophobic almost. Yeah. It was a feeling that would come up a lot. And I haven't felt it once since we moved here.
SPEAKER_01And it's not like we have like acres of space, but it's like having two floors makes a big difference. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I I basically want to erase all of your pain.
SPEAKER_01Hmm, so sweet.
SPEAKER_00And I can't do that. Yeah. But yeah, I think I can quickly go to the self-blame place.
SPEAKER_01Well, yeah, maybe your self-blaming part helps you feel less helpless.
SPEAKER_00It probably helps keep me have control.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But then it ultimately ends up making me feel worse. Yeah. And making you feel worse. Right. I mean, this is so much of what I'm dealing with in therapy, is just sitting with discomfort.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, of course. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And let's say I'm gonna go for a run, I'm gonna meditate, I'm gonna listen to my music, I'm gonna write, I'm gonna do my eclipse. Yeah. I'm gonna drink alkyhol. Just kidding. Well, I'm mostly kidding. But the goal isn't to feel better. Right. It's to do something I like to do that's value aligned with the knowledge that eventually the feeling will dissipate.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And not try to stuff it down.
SPEAKER_01I love that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Because my therapist was asking me, she was like, Are you ever on a run and you're running and feeling the anxiety go down? And then you come back in from the run and something happens, and immediately you're back in the anxious space and you're like, fuck, my run didn't work. And what did you say? All the time.
SPEAKER_01Uh and what did she tell you?
SPEAKER_00You just gotta do the things.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, like don't look for the yield, don't look for the result. Yeah. Do what's meaningful. Yeah, of course. I love that.
SPEAKER_00She was kind of just saying, when you're gonna feel bad, you're gonna feel bad when you're gonna feel bad, and you're gonna feel good when you're gonna feel good, and you won't really need to relinquish control. Yeah, don't chase it. I love that. Very wise-minded. So I'm practicing feeling bad.
SPEAKER_01Totally, totally.
SPEAKER_00And not looking into so not trying to analyze it so much. Because once I start trying to do that, it's like, why are you feeling bad? Oh, because you're a fraud, you're a bad person. Yeah, that because you're always hopeless and you you're just a white, privileged man, and you always see the worst in everything. You are, yeah, and you are, and straight. Yeah, I guess it's Jewish, but you know, that hasn't really negatively impacted me in life. Basically, you have everything going for you. You should always be a positive force in the world.
SPEAKER_01Which isn't fair for any human being.
SPEAKER_00No, and it doesn't help me do that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So anyway, learn to feel bad, feel through, and do the things that are important to you, meaningfully, value aligned. Let go of trying to create or prevent a feeling. Right. Yeah. Don't need my old therapist
Uncertainty And Taking Back Agency
SPEAKER_01Melissa used to say, no need to fix manager control. A big difficult part of this journey for me is like the uncertainty, like because I've had because I have the auto autoimmune stuff going on, I've had all these different health experiences. And for a long time I've felt very helpless against anything and like not in control of obviously the experience, but even like what the intervention should be, what the medication should be. Just like do exactly whatever a doctor tells you. And I'm at this point in my life of like both like having all this kind of uncertainty and lack of control, and it's a true dialect because I'm also more in a decision-making space with it. I'm looking at the response to my blood work, which I've done like every month for a year, you know, like I'm looking at their response to it as, you know, like guidance, recommendations, information, and I decide what happens. And like I've never really stepped into that role and owned it. And I'm doing that, and it feels really right, but not in that way of like feels good. It feels just like this is the moment that I'm in, and this is the next phase of my life here. I have to do it and I will do it. Yeah. And it feels a little bit like it's weird. It's like scary almost doesn't feel like the right word. It's like uncomfortable. Definitely uncomfortable. I feel like alone. And that feels both right. Maybe it's almost like a little bit sad in a way. Like, you know how you have to like grieve something, and it's right to grieve it and let it go. I think I said this to my therapist that it's almost like when you leave a job, not because you're like running screaming from the job, but because you're like, I am ready for the next phase. But I really love this job. I really love the people I work with. There's so much comfort here and joy. There it wasn't like there was joy when I would just kind of like let other people tell me what to do with my health, but like there was so much comfort. And you know, it was managing parts of me to do that, to be more passive. And now it's like my wise mind in there, myself, is really saying like it is time to let that go. Yeah. But there's like grief in letting it go because I think I can feel like someone else has got the wheel. Someone else just I just go in, I do the blood work, and they just tell me to adjust this a little bit this way, or just that a little bit that way. Now that I've like stepped more into a role of decision maker, I know it's right. But there isn't a bunch of people like waving on the sidelines, like, you got this, this is right.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. No, if anything, you're probably gonna step on people's toes and piss them off a little bit.
SPEAKER_01A little. I will give them credit for like giving me space to do it and having like really great conversations with me about it. Both of my doctors that I talked to about this, but yeah, it feels like kind of lonely.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I think it feels lonely. Yeah, no one's telling you you're doing the right thing. You're not getting positive feedback. Right. And it feels uncomfortable. And I think after some of these interactions where you maybe confronted a doctor about, listen, this is your advice, and I don't a hundred percent agree with it. I think you were looking for a massive feeling of relief after, and you said, I feel like I did what was right and what was value aligned, but I'm not feeling this massive relief. Right. And I think you said maybe I maybe I will in time.
SPEAKER_01I know it's like it's almost like I'm leaving relief behind for something bigger. Expansion, something more whole, yeah. Like authenticity, like feeling really honest with myself. And like the person I'm most trusting is me. Which can be lonely and hard. Yeah, I said to my therapist, like, it can feel like crickets all around me. Yeah. Especially when, you know, you're not seeing the stick turn double line, you know, like you're like, okay, so like I'm not pregnant yet. I'm still kind of out here, like doo-doo, just waiting for something to happen here. And and nobody knows how their body's really gonna respond to pregnancy until they're pregnant.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's a whole other step of the journey.
SPEAKER_01You know, if you'll feel sick, you don't know if you'll need help, you don't know if you'll have like pre-eclampsia, you don't know if you'll have gestational diabetes, which maybe are the same thing or slightly different or really different. I don't know.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I don't even really know what either of those things are.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, gestational diabetes is what it sounds like. And pre-eclampsia, I think, is like high blood pressure. Okay. Um, no big sweats. Well, I think pre-eclampsia can be like really dangerous, according to the pit.
SPEAKER_00The pit is for all my medical advice. It feels, man. It feels it be feeling, it follows.
SPEAKER_01So we'll see. Like we'll we'll probably update. We will update at some point, but that's where we are. There's not a big arrival point with this.
SPEAKER_00But yeah. It's just a mark on the map. It's an arbitrary mark on the map. Yeah. We're recording about it because John's not here.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we decided to just chat about it because it's some and then another piece of it that I'll just mention is like this week I I had a reckoning with my sleep, and I realized like the one health practice I'm really not giving attention to is sleeping. And I kind of I had a day where I just felt tired from start to finish. And I was like really emotional as a result, and I decided like no matter what, sleep is the priority every single night. Say with me, every single night. You know, because I can make excuses forever as to why on this night I'll get a little less on that night, and for a long time in my life, this has needed to be a priority, pregnancy or not. You know, sleep is like the great healer. So trying to really like be in bed eight hours, be in the bed eight hours before I have to get up the next day, whenever that is. And if the if the get up time changes, the wake time changes, the bedtime changes, and I read in bed until I'm sleepy.
SPEAKER_00You've got what we like to call a system.
SPEAKER_01So I'll even update on that maybe in a few weeks.
SPEAKER_00Oh, so many seeds have been planted. Yeah, so many seeds have been planted. What a cliffhanger to leave our audience on.
SPEAKER_01And oh, or how wise
Is It Wise To Share This?
SPEAKER_01is it?
SPEAKER_00Which we could do quickly because I'm realizing I kind of addressed this during the topic.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00How-wise is it to talk openly about your fertility journey.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yes.
SPEAKER_00Which we're doing now. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, because a lot of people do keep it pretty close to the vest.
SPEAKER_00Which is correct. What we're doing is wrong.
SPEAKER_01Totally. It's not appropriate. It feels like intuitive for me to share it. I don't know why. And you were raised Catholic. Oh, yeah. I I don't think I have a lot of Catholic. I have some deep-seated, probably like Catholic y thoughts, but not this. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I've got a lot of Jewish thoughts, which is talk about it. Totally talk people's ear off. And then ask them about their pregnancy journey.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I don't feel like I need to like intrude on anyone's like privacy if we share and then someone feels inspired to share. I love moments like that, but I don't find that necessary, and I would never push someone in that way.
SPEAKER_00So curveball, you could make someone feel uncomfortable even just by talking about your own journey.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Oh, definitely.
SPEAKER_00Elucidate on that.
SPEAKER_01I I maybe I've only sensed that once or twice. Well, and I also think like then when people dig into our journey, I think sometimes they might think, well, you're not in a tough place with this, and you made it sound like you were. Because you've been trying one month, but it's it's more complicated than that. You put in talking about it, yeah, and and adjusting things for a long time. So but yeah, I think it's like you definitely could make people uncomfortable. That's a risk you're taking, you know.
SPEAKER_00That doesn't make it unwise.
SPEAKER_01No, I I don't think it does. I think I like the DBT agreements we talked about last week, like, don't fragilize other people, you know, trust them to speak for themselves, to handle their feelings. If they need to resolve something with you or they're offended or hurt by something, that they'll bring it up.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And they'll share, you know, like respecting people to handle their side of the street. There's more value in that than fragilizing people or assuming it makes them uncomfortable. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Maybe they'll grow. Yeah. Maybe people will grow from learning about our fertility journey.
SPEAKER_01Well, totally. And like, you know, it's so funny that you said that thing of like she said your anatomy is gorgeous. It's like I shared that with you, not to be like, I'm the best, to be like, oh but you are the best. Some well, no, like something is good. Like, let's just really love on this. Right. You know, because like I have had health issues, and like it's nice to hear that in the midst of that. And I certainly wouldn't be if I had. Rockstar health and not a problem with like getting pregnant always smooth sailing. Like I don't think I'd be talking about that piece. No, first thing it's not that interesting.
SPEAKER_00Only talk about your struggles.
SPEAKER_01Well, I I think there's a rich tapestry there for anyone. And I think you can share then the parts that are actually valuable to share with other people. And if someone asks me directly, like, did if if say say I had an easy journey and someone asked me directly, like, was it difficult? I wouldn't lie.
SPEAKER_00You would say it was difficult.
SPEAKER_01I wouldn't lie. No, no, no. If if I didn't have a difficult journey and someone asked me if I had a difficult journey, I wouldn't lie. I would say for me, this this went pretty smoothly. Like I I just wouldn't lie, but I would also like leave room for their side, like what comes up for them with that. You know, I wouldn't like dwell on it forever if it were going super easy and well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you wouldn't be like going around town bragging about that. No, steamrolling everyone with certain success.
SPEAKER_01But I think like being honest and like sharing about your life, I think is I do think it's valuable. I think you can, of course, overdo it. Sure. And you're gonna overdo it probably if you're a person who's honest.
SPEAKER_00I'd rather overdo it than underdo it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think so too.
SPEAKER_00And that's my personal journey and wisdom. Totally. So it's wise.
SPEAKER_01We think it's wise, but I know some people definitely think it isn't wise. And I will be so curious to hear that. And there's validity in that for sure.
SPEAKER_00So come at us with your complaints.
SPEAKER_01Yeah,
How To Reach Us And Closing
SPEAKER_01tell us everything.
SPEAKER_00Tell us everything. Yeah. You can text us. Sure. I'm gonna explain to you how to how to do this. Amazing. How to tell us everything you hated about this episode. To leave fan mail for a Buzz Sprout podcast, open the episode description or show notes in your podcast player and click the text the show link. This will open your phone's native messaging app, allowing you to easily type a text or send a voicemail directly to the podcast creator us.
SPEAKER_01Text us if you have thoughts. Um and if you want to go the route of just reaching out to me, you can find me at kkpsychotherapy.com and you can um look at my website there and you could shoot me an inquiry if you want to work with me, if you are wanting to guest on the pod, if you have topic ideas, if you have that feedback or dissent, we'd love to hear it. Um so yeah, reach out to me there and please try to rate and review the pod if you're enjoying it. It helps people discover us. So that would be great. We would really appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00We need to be discovered.
SPEAKER_01We'd love that.
SPEAKER_00And let's talk about me. You can find me at joshbayerfilms.com. That's Bayer as in the aspirin, B-A-Y-E-R. And if you need a film or a documentary edited, perhaps a music video, or even a medical film, maybe a legal film. Let's say you need a podcast edited. I am a jack of all trades, and the one trade is editing.
SPEAKER_01Nice.
SPEAKER_00I do film as well. I will film things. If you're in Chicago and you need a videographer, I will do that as well. I'll film.
SPEAKER_01Nice. Okay, and if you want to reach John, um, butzbutz. Jonathan at gmail.com. Thanks everyone. Thanks, blanket forts, for the music.
SPEAKER_00Getting all jazzed up about your music.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And we will catch you next week. Ta ta. Bye. The Wisemind Happy Hour podcast is for entertainment purposes only, not to be treated as medical advice. If you are struggling with your mental health, please seek medical attention or counseling.