ALICE & STEVE GO TO THERAPY

Y'all seen 2026 Hulu smash hit TV show "Alive and Steve" starring Jemaine Clement from "Flight of the Conchords?" Want HELLA SPOILERS? Conflicted about aging? Well then you've come to the right place.

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Transcript

Welcome And Catching Up

SPEAKER_02 0:04

Welcome to the Wisemind Happy Hour. I'm Kelly.

SPEAKER_01 0:08

And I'm Josh Baer.

SPEAKER_02 0:10

Josh Bayer is back in place of John again this week. Like we said last week, we're doing a two-week run of me and Josh due to some scheduling issues and some family stuff for John going on. So yeah, welcome back, Josh, to the pod.

SPEAKER_01 0:28

It's a pleasure. You know, I'm just sitting pretty here on my throne. Oh, I love to have you on the pod. It's it's great. It's really a pleasure to speak with my wife. It's a different flavor and it's fun. But I do miss that John flavor.

SPEAKER_02 0:42

Yeah, of course. I mean, we're dying over here,

Steve Lacey And Confessional Pop

SPEAKER_02 0:45

but it's so nice to have you.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

I'm fine.

SPEAKER_02 0:47

So what's new?

SPEAKER_01 0:48

Tell us. Oh man. I mean, I've been loving the new Steve Lacey album. We all know about that.

SPEAKER_02 0:54

Yeah, yeah. Tell us about it.

SPEAKER_01 0:57

Well, he's the boy Wonder.

SPEAKER_02 0:59

What makes you say he's the boy Wonder?

SPEAKER_01 1:01

I don't know. I feel like he's got a youthful vibe. No, well, he was young.

SPEAKER_02 1:05

When he came out, when he debuted.

SPEAKER_01 1:06

When he debuted. I think I saw him live in Los Angeles at L Ray. And I think he was 17, maybe at that point. Oh, wow. So young. Did you know he was in high school when he co-produced a Grammy winning album?

unknown 1:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:22

Damn. That's what the album name is. By Kendrick Lamar.

SPEAKER_02 1:24

Oh, he produced a Kendrick Lamar album.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

I think specifically the guitar lick on the song Pride. Cool.

SPEAKER_02 1:30

So I mean, I like him a lot.

SPEAKER_01 1:33

The lyrics are really funny. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:35

They're a big hit.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

Dark red.

SPEAKER_02 1:39

Well, man, you always know like the very first album.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

That's like two on Spotify.

SPEAKER_02 1:44

But what's the one that every Bad Habit?

SPEAKER_01 1:46

Bad Habit, yes. That's the one everyone knows, which is great. Which is great. Yeah. And this new album has that I suddenly can't think of it. The song that I'm obsessed with.

SPEAKER_02 1:55

The one we're both singing always.

SPEAKER_01 1:57

Are we even singing it always?

SPEAKER_02 1:58

Yeah, I'm singing it. Yeah. Something with love.

SPEAKER_00 2:01

Are you my baby? Are you my baby? The love. Somebody call the love police.

SPEAKER_01 2:09

Oh, I love that one too. That one I'm thinking of. Sad boy, you've been on the moon.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:15

Somebody call I think that's the one where he says some of the profane lyrics. Really, all the songs have one kind of record stomping drop of um prof sexual profanity.

SPEAKER_02 2:26

Well, you know what? I mean, if it's honest for him and that's what came into the writing, go for it. I think it's a confessional album.

SPEAKER_01 2:33

I think he's experimenting with bedroom pop.

SPEAKER_02 2:35

Okay, we're not on your review, YouTube.

SPEAKER_01 2:38

Well, I don't have anything new else.

Michigan Trip And Smoke Haze

SPEAKER_02 2:40

Well, we took a trip to Michigan.

SPEAKER_01 2:42

Oh, yeah, that was fun. Love to see my friends and our friends collectively.

SPEAKER_02 2:46

We did get caught in the smoke.

SPEAKER_01 2:49

It smelled like a big bonfire.

SPEAKER_02 2:51

Everywhere in the US and Canada, this is like an issue or was an issue this past week. You know, really poor air quality smokiness.

SPEAKER_01 3:00

What was the fun fact to it? If you go outside, you smoke 10 cigarettes a day.

SPEAKER_02 3:04

Yeah, I this was not fact-checked at all, but there was like a TikToker who said on days where it's like 300, the where, you know, the air quality on the 300 what?

SPEAKER_01 3:15

Airs?

SPEAKER_02 3:16

It's just like it's like on the Apple weather app. Like today it was like fine. Five? It was like 49 or something.

SPEAKER_01 3:25

That's much lower.

SPEAKER_02 3:25

Yeah, or maybe it was 149. I can look actually right now.

SPEAKER_01 3:29

Yeah, we want to be factual. We want to be factual here. This isn't a weather podcast.

SPEAKER_02 3:33

54 moderate. Okay. Better than yesterday about this time. Air quality in Chicago has improved, but wildfires and wind could affect conditions. So we might have more of this smokiness coming. Great. My mom was actually saying on the phone, I just talked to her, and she was saying that, like, because we were in Michigan, so we got the Michigan version, but she was saying in Chicago, she was like looking out her back door, and there was like a plume of smoke. Like it was like she could see it like twirling in the air. Like a twister. It wasn't just a haze, it wasn't just the smell. It was like twirling, swirling. That's some ghost.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

That's some ghost stuff. Pretty ghosty. Or smoky the bear when you need him. Yeah, totally. Probably wherever John Butts is.

SPEAKER_02 4:13

So yeah, we were dealing with that, but we had a nice visit anyway, right? And we made the most of it.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

I truly felt reborn.

SPEAKER_02 4:19

You

First Massage And Stress Relief

SPEAKER_02 4:20

did, yeah. Tell us.

SPEAKER_01 4:21

Saw friends. Yeah. Got a massage.

SPEAKER_02 4:24

Yeah, Josh got a massage for the first time.

SPEAKER_01 4:28

My arms were twisted this way and that. Yeah. I snored on the open door.

SPEAKER_02 4:33

Yeah, you fell asleep.

SPEAKER_01 4:34

I don't even know if I fell asleep. I just let a snore go. Doesn't that mean you fell asleep? So briefly. I think the snore woke me up.

SPEAKER_02 4:41

It's crazy to me that people can fall asleep when someone is putting that much physical pressure on their body.

SPEAKER_01 4:46

But it was a combination of force and extreme relaxation.

SPEAKER_02 4:52

Okay, you can put on your normal voice.

SPEAKER_01 4:54

I felt light after. Nice. And even now, still, stress is down.

SPEAKER_02 4:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:00

My sleep's been caught up on, so catching up on sleep.

SPEAKER_02 5:04

What do you think? Like in terms of the feeling reborn, what did it most? Was it the massage?

SPEAKER_01 5:08

I don't know. I think it's

Family Guilt And Losing Control

SPEAKER_01 5:10

everything, Kelly. Okay. I think I'm at a phase in life where I feel very in control. Okay. And when I lose control, I can see that it won't be forever.

SPEAKER_02 5:23

Well, that's good.

SPEAKER_01 5:24

And when you lose control, I can see that it won't be forever.

SPEAKER_02 5:29

Anytime you're in a moment of feeling really out of control, to be able to say, like, I won't feel out of control forever. I will get to a place where I feel some power and agency again. Or maybe I won't. Well, you'll never feel perfect control. But even like, you know, accidentally, you'll feel some more control at some point.

SPEAKER_01 5:48

But even by mistake.

SPEAKER_02 5:50

Even just by how time marches on and life happens, you know.

SPEAKER_01 5:54

Usually my family can kind of tip over the apple cart a bit.

SPEAKER_02 5:57

With feeling out of control.

SPEAKER_01 5:59

Yeah, I think with judging myself.

SPEAKER_02 6:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:02

Feeling guilt.

SPEAKER_02 6:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

Feelings of unexplainable guilt will come up.

SPEAKER_02 6:07

Meaning, like when you're around your family, you'll feel some guilt.

SPEAKER_01 6:10

Yeah, I think I'll question my actions a lot more. Okay, sure. And drive myself crazy. Yeah. And then drive you crazy.

SPEAKER_02 6:17

Well, I mean, I think a lot of people have that experience with family, you know, and staying with family. You know, whether it's your family or in-laws or or even like a friend's family. It's like you can feel more scrutinized even if you're not being super scrutinized. Right.

SPEAKER_01 6:32

I'm scrutinizing myself.

SPEAKER_02 6:33

And then you end up like internalizing it. Yeah, I totally relate to it.

SPEAKER_01 6:37

And sometimes I don't know the difference.

SPEAKER_02 6:39

Yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_01 6:40

Because I don't think it's all me.

SPEAKER_02 6:42

No, I don't think it's all you either. Well, that's the thing that can be so confusing. You know, in therapy, we'd call it like an introject of like past experiences that I've internalized, and a part of me is now like aligned with whatever a family member or someone from my past. And what part is like, oh, in the present moment, I'm actually dealing with this stressor. And a lot of times it's both. There's many cases where it's like a little bit of both.

SPEAKER_01 7:10

Yeah. It's hard. But you've got a whole supporting cast of characters in your head that may not be coherent with reality. Totally. And I'll map them onto various people's faces.

SPEAKER_02 7:18

With family, like I feel like there's like the famous like cliche, like, what's that supposed to mean? kind of like reaction that I'll have. What's what's supposed to be? Like, like when a family member says something, it sounds so different than if someone else had the exact same thing.

SPEAKER_01 7:30

Oh, sure. Yeah, no, that's true. I'll I'll have a worse sense of humor about everything. Sure. I'll judge myself more.

SPEAKER_02 7:37

But not this trip, you didn't.

SPEAKER_01 7:38

Well, we weren't around my extended family, really.

SPEAKER_02 7:41

Yeah, true.

SPEAKER_01 7:42

It was a smaller sampling.

SPEAKER_02 7:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:44

But yeah, we saw my mom, my stepdad, my grandparents.

SPEAKER_02 7:47

Which was great. We had so much fun with them.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

I was just irritable so little the time. And I think I was present. We played Settlers of Catan every night. Yeah. I won all three nights, which doesn't matter. And I stayed up drinking beers with my mom. She didn't have any. She, I think she had some fruit.

SPEAKER_02 8:05

But yeah, you, yeah, I went to bed. And you, that's kind of like our ritual like, I'll retire at some point, and you'll, with your mom and Jeff, play Settlers of Catan, which you love. You really had a nice, kind of easy time.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

Yeah, I think it helped that we scheduled everything. Yeah. And then I really Oh, I agree. And then I really tried to just sit with that of this is the plan. Yeah. There are other people we could see, there are other things we could do, but it's off the table now. Yeah. And I'm not, and I'm gonna feel moderate guilt about that. I think the guilt was really before the fact. Yeah. I think I had the sense, oh, I'm not gonna see, you know, my mom that much, but we hung out every evening after.

SPEAKER_02 8:50

We saw your mom a bunch, which was great.

SPEAKER_01 8:51

Because initially we scheduled it, and I think we were there what three nights?

SPEAKER_02 8:54

Wednesday night, Thursday night, Friday night, Saturday night.

SPEAKER_01 8:57

Four nights. And we only had one scheduled dinner with my mom.

SPEAKER_02 9:00

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:01

Which, yeah, and when I was talking with her on the phone, I could tell that she was kind of questioning, like, well, maybe two nights.

SPEAKER_02 9:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:09

And I was feeling, oh man, one sounds pretty, pretty lame.

SPEAKER_02 9:14

But it it wasn't really we had so much more. It didn't feel like that.

SPEAKER_01 9:17

Yeah. That's my whole point. And I think I I kind of decided to go into it with this blind trust of I'm gonna feel refreshed at the end of this. And if I don't, I'm gonna feel bad. Yeah. And unrefreshed. But I think I I really was just thinking I'm gonna let go.

Energy Work And Turning Volume Down

SPEAKER_02 9:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:33

And I did.

SPEAKER_02 9:34

And I mean, I'm feeling refreshed too because I did a session of I'm calling it Reiki, but I think it's actually like a better label would be energy work.

SPEAKER_01 9:46

Should I talk a little bit about that? Yeah, there's so much grunting.

SPEAKER_02 9:49

My mother-in-law, Lisa, shout out to Lisa, who's been on the pod twice, had mentioned to me that she knows a woman who performs this like energy work. And it can be a great thing to do, like if you're navigating a transition, which, like, of course, we're navigating having a baby and doing all that, which we talked about in the last episode. So I decided to book a session with this woman um named Rita Yevzelman, and she's in West Moonfield, Michigan. And yeah, she does energy work, so it's a mix of Reiki and a few other methods. And energy work, I think, in general, is like moving energy through the body, helping you with like stuck points, and it's adjacent to therapy in a lot of ways. It's like body work, you know, the soma moving things like in your body. And yeah, there was grunting, like the way that she moves energy through is she like makes noise and she breathes in certain ways, and sometimes she sings and she does do a little bit of talking as well, and like she'll ask you questions that she kind of senses are coming from your body. I felt like a huge release. I I don't want to overprocess it because she did tell me in my case, like what was kind of lifted and moved doesn't need any overprocessing. And it kind of felt like a massage, but obviously, like that was just the superficial part of it, and really there was a lot of movement and shift, and I'm definitely feeling more kind of grounded. Oh, yeah. Let's hope that'll last. Well, it won't. And like I think something of it will last. Sure, you know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_01 11:24

Like gem, a little kidney stone.

SPEAKER_02 11:26

It's like it moved me, and it's not like I'm gonna be just like completely zen all the time. I didn't even necessarily feel this like huge sigh of relief. I felt more of this like gentle like quietness kind of in my body and in my mind. The volume was turned down. I love turning the volume down. Oh, there's like nothing better than a quietness in the mind.

SPEAKER_01 11:51

I know is so huge. There's all this static electricity that just built up. Yeah, and then there's certain practices to kind of cool it down.

SPEAKER_02 11:58

We're both feeling great. Yeah, and it won't last. Boring, and it won't last, but that's okay. We're okay with that, and we're aware that things move and change. And in moments of non-control, kind of saying, like, I'm not in control, I will feel control again. It's okay.

SPEAKER_01 12:15

And even if I don't, it's still okay. Yeah, it's the new you, it's the new you. Out of control me.

SPEAKER_02 12:23

It's okay, nothing's in control.

SPEAKER_01 12:25

Because we're all gonna die.

SPEAKER_02 12:26

Nothing's under control. Because you know the saying is like everything's under control.

SPEAKER_01 12:29

It's like nothing's under control, nothing's under control, and it's okay, which is proof that everything is fine.

SPEAKER_02 12:35

We don't need as much control. Control's boring. Okay, well, should we get into our topic?

Spoiler Warning And Show Setup

SPEAKER_01 12:40

Yeah, let's talk turkey. Let's talk turkey.

SPEAKER_02 12:43

Oh, you're you're calling back to our old episode that we did on Thanksgiving.

SPEAKER_01 12:47

Well, isn't that a saying to talk turkey? Is it? Doesn't that just mean let's talk about X? I I And I'm not talking about X, I'm talking about Turkey. Turkey. Let's talk turkey.

SPEAKER_02 12:56

Let's talk turkey. Okay, so what we wanted to talk about today is Josh and I recently watched a series on Hulu that maybe not a ton of people are watching. I I think it's a British series that Hulu bought and is airing.

SPEAKER_01 13:10

So it's obscure.

SPEAKER_02 13:11

It's a little obscure, which is like very us to like review something that like no none of our listeners are gonna have watched, or a very small portion of them. But honestly, I would say go and watch it. There's gonna be this is gonna be a spoiler-heavy episode. So if you are into the premise, like when I introduce it, pause the pod, watch it, come back to this app.

SPEAKER_01 13:30

And what's the name of the show?

SPEAKER_02 13:31

So the name of the show, of course, I'm teasing and I haven't said the name yet. The name of the show is Alice and Steve. A mm-hmm memorable name. Something that may draw one to this show is that the co-star who plays Steve is Jermaine Clement of Flight of the Concords fame. He's Jermaine of the band Flight of the Concords and the star of the show Flight of the Concords, which was a comedy that ran for three seasons on HBO and was. I'm so sad that it didn't last for a thousand years. It has a place and time. Run, don't walk to Flight of the Concords.

SPEAKER_01 14:07

Jogs to Sprint. To Flight of the Concords.

SPEAKER_02 14:10

So good. Fly. But he's in it, and he normally plays like a straight-up comedy, even if he doesn't identify as one. He is fully a comedian. He's so funny. But he plays a little bit more straight in this one. It's it's funny, but it's right on that dramedy line. Um, and the Noah Bumbach. You have like a serious script, but then you add in really funny actors. I think that, by the way, I think this is a side thing. I think it's a tangent. That is the ingredient to a true dramedy. You have a serious, like drama plot line. The script is drama, and you hire people that are funny in kind of everything they do, and it adds this very natural, like real life feeling of humor that comes up in real life as well as like compelling drama. Don't you casting is everything. Did I just like crack the code?

SPEAKER_01 15:00

You cracked the code. What about writing a comedy and then putting in actors with no sense of humor?

SPEAKER_02 15:07

I honestly think that might be a bad idea. Well, what do you think?

SPEAKER_01 15:10

Well, I'm a filmmaker, so all my ideas are good.

SPEAKER_02 15:13

The plot, which really like all comes out in the first episode.

Alice And Steve Plot Breakdown

SPEAKER_02 15:17

Alice and Steve are best friends. And they're in their 50s, I believe. That's about right. Alice is married to someone 10 years younger. Yeah, he's like 10 to 15 years younger than her. She has a daughter from a first relationship, not a marriage, or like a very short-term relationship. She had a daughter named Chloe Sevignier.

SPEAKER_01 15:39

Anyway, it doesn't matter. Yeah, that's an on M.

SPEAKER_02 15:41

So she has a daughter from a first relationship who's in her 20s. She's 26. And then she has a son as well with this husband. And then her best friend, who's her age, is Steve, played by Jermaine Clement. And Jermaine, you learn, is divorced. Not so recently. I think he maybe a few years ago got divorced. And the opening scene is them at a funeral for another friend of theirs. They're talking and engaging, and you gather from their interaction that they're really, really close. And you get the feeling that like Alice is, you know, like her relationship with her best friend is very obviously very different than with her partner. Like her partner is this very like quiet, kind of grounded, serious, stable guy.

SPEAKER_01 16:34

Doesn't she say about him that um he doesn't experience joy?

SPEAKER_02 16:37

She brings joy to his life and he brings stability to her life. Right. So they like complement each other. And it seems like her relationship with her best friend, Jermaine, Steve, in the show, is like he's her fun. So like her husband's her stability, her best friend is her fun, fun, fun. And I guess apparently a long, long time ago, they dated she and Steve. Yeah. But now they're best friends, kind of like Elaine and Jerry Seinfeld type thing. Exactly. So they decide to like go out and kind of party, or like in in England, how they say they're gonna have a big night. And they're like drinking, using substances, like doing it up. And I think they're pretty drunk. And Steve is saying, like, I'm never gonna have a baby. I want to have a baby. And Alice is like, you can have a baby, like you can do it. We can find you someone in this bar. He's like, I'm too old. And she's like, Well, you can meet someone younger. And he's like, No, I can't. And she tries in the bar to kind of like set him up with someone younger. And she's all on him. Like, you don't have to like give up on this having a kid. Like, you're a man, like you could meet someone younger and have a kid. Easy. And he is too drunk to drive home, so he stays at her house. Steve stays on the couch, and he's trying to fall asleep. And as he's trying to fall asleep, Alice's daughter comes home and he kind of scares her. She's getting like wine out of the fridge. And then they start chatting about she went through a breakup that night, I think, and they're talking or whatever. They end up hooking up, and it goes from there. So, like, while Alice really had encouraged Steve to get together with a younger woman, and then he kind of I wouldn't say necessarily falls for her daughter, but hooks up with, has chemistry with the daughter. She just broke up with someone, and then they start in the show dating. I thought it'd be interesting to like imagine myself as each of their therapists. Steve's therapist and Alice's therapist. And the husband, sure. Alice is obviously so upset. By no means when telling him to be with a younger woman, did she ever think he'd be with her daughter? Did she ever mean that? She's so unbelievably appalled by this and pissed at him. He's so freaked out at first before he tells her about telling her that he's trying to stay away from the daughter and they kind of can't stay away from each other and they really like each other and they start dating. Then the mom and the daughter are really at odds. And well, maybe with Steve, I'll

Steve’s Midlife Crisis As Therapy

SPEAKER_02 19:16

start with. Yeah, why not? And if he were to come into my office, you know, I would of course always start with kind of the question that I think like basically every therapist starts with, which is Are you a narcissist? What's your sign? No, basically the question being, what brings you to therapy today? And since we like this is a fictional character, we get to like color this in a little bit based on what we saw in the show. But what would you say, like his reason for going to therapy if he were gonna go?

SPEAKER_01 19:44

He feels like he's not worthy of a committed relationship because he's too selfish for anyone.

SPEAKER_02 19:52

Did you get that from the show? Yeah. Oh, because his ex-wife said that.

SPEAKER_01 19:55

Yeah. Is it his ex-wife or his um Alice? Or both?

SPEAKER_02 19:59

Maybe both.

SPEAKER_01 20:00

This is in the dialogue. These aren't just Josh bots. Okay, yes, you're right. And he seems pretty fused with it to some extent. Right. Because in that opening scene.

SPEAKER_02 20:10

Yes, because he tells Izzy that.

SPEAKER_01 20:11

Yeah, he's and he says it in the I think he says that multiple times. Yes, you're right. Sorry. So it's a belief that both he believes and others around him believe. Right. And I can obviously relate with because that's um Oh, so that kind of record with you.

SPEAKER_02 20:25

Because my mind was focusing a little in watching the show on his relationship to his age. Oh, sure. But no, I love I love that direction. So, okay, my past relationships have failed, and I've gotten this feedback that I'm too selfish to be in a relationship, and I really want to be in one, and I want to have a baby. It's kind of funny the way he made it sound like he wanted to like get pregnant. And what do you think? Do you feel like you're selfish? Tell me more about that. And we would learn about this like belief that he's selfish, what that really means to him, and what his goal really is. And I think something that the show displays a lot, and and a theme the show itself overall tackles is like how one deals with aging in their relationships. Like how how aging can affect relationships and how people can try to cope with aging through the medium of relationships.

SPEAKER_01 21:27

Yeah. Like if you feel that you're aging, maybe have sex with your friend's daughter.

unknown 21:34

Right.

SPEAKER_02 21:35

Right.

SPEAKER_01 21:36

To regain a sense of youth.

SPEAKER_02 21:38

I'm older and single. I want to have a baby. Even if maybe in some ways that season of life maybe has passed me, I'm gonna kind of go for it no matter what other relationships it destroys. You know, and there's that like selfishness of like, I ultimately wanna have a baby. I didn't prioritize that earlier. It seems like in his other marriage, didn't have a healthy relationship with that partner. And now he wants that. So he's sort of going to just like go after it.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

Yeah. No matter what. It's a midlife crisis, one could say.

SPEAKER_02 22:15

What of this whole kind of smattering of things going on? What is bothering you the most? And kind of enter from there. Because it seems like it does really bother him that Alice hates him so much at this point because they are best friends. Lifelong best friends. Or I think lifelong.

SPEAKER_01 22:34

Yeah, we don't. I don't know if we know.

SPEAKER_02 22:35

Lifelong, meaning they met in college or something, which isn't lifelong.

SPEAKER_01 22:38

But also the season is, I think, six episodes long.

SPEAKER_02 22:41

Yeah, it's short, which is so British. And so British. So little. Yeah, it's like fleabag. It's like six episodes.

SPEAKER_01 22:48

We're looking for you're dying for more.

SPEAKER_02 22:51

You're dying, but that's why they're so good.

SPEAKER_01 22:53

Yeah. Some more show.

SPEAKER_02 22:55

He's dealing with aging by trying to kind of like fix it a little bit, right? Not really reckon with the fact that, okay, I'm in my 50s and I have not prioritized having kids and I want them. And explore. I would want to explore with him why maybe at a younger age where that was kind of more developmentally appropriate, he didn't go for it. Not that it can't be appropriate in your 50s. It totally can.

SPEAKER_01 23:24

But there's a desperation there.

SPEAKER_02 23:25

And there's a rushing toward it with not a lot of thought.

SPEAKER_01 23:30

There's a rushing toward it with your best friend's daughter.

SPEAKER_02 23:33

And really reckoning a deeply supportive, meaningful relationship to you to be with that person's 26-year-old daughter and have the hope of having a kid. Wrecking. Wrecking. Did you say reckoning? Well, wrecking, yeah. Ruining his relationship, a very supportive, meaningful relationship with his best friend. Yeah, to try to be with someone younger who he could have a kid with. And that all kind of populates in the show. But I would want to do a lot of PMDR. Possibly, they do give you a glimpse into his dad, who seems like kind of an asshole, like pretty chauvinistic and you know, not very kind to him. And his own marriage, the dad's marriage, seems to be kind of crumbling. The mom doesn't even come to some significant events that happen in the show. But also, I would want to explore with him like what is finding someone younger than you really mean? What's the experience of it? Yes, there could be a path physically to children. Is that a worthwhile path? Do you find a deeply meaningful relationship with someone 25, 27 years younger than you? Maybe you could, you know, and and maybe that's unlikely.

SPEAKER_01 24:48

I think that's season two. Yeah. Because season one really is about his conflict with Alice. Yeah. Well, how much are we trying to spoil this?

SPEAKER_02 24:55

We can spoil it. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 24:56

Spoiler alert. Spoiler alert. You said it's interesting that they're getting married before they've even had a fight.

SPEAKER_02 25:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 25:04

So I think it's TBD in terms of your question. Right. I do think they're finding it fulfilling to some extent. They align a lot on humor. Yeah. They're having passionate sex. They love that um song by what's that song? The um, I don't know, Tea for the Tillerman or some song.

SPEAKER_02 25:23

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 25:24

The song that he says, no well, no one under the age of 30 would know this song, and then she sings it. Who who's it by? I can't. It's not Kat Stevens. Like it's not Bob Dylan or no. No, it's not James Taylor. I don't know. I don't know. It's someone in this wheelhouse.

SPEAKER_00 25:40

He he definitely gets this feeling from Willie Nelson.

SPEAKER_02 25:43

He gets this feeling from like one song that she knows that, oh, she's an old soul. Right. And like this is meant to be Kismet. Which is like, you know, one conversation they have. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:55

Our marriage is founded off of one conversation.

SPEAKER_02 25:58

Well, you know, I do think that is the idea of not fighting and working through conflict many, many times before getting married is straight up ludicrous to me.

SPEAKER_01 26:12

Get in a lot of fights.

SPEAKER_02 26:13

Well, I mean, I just think you do not know if you can make this work and be happy if you haven't fought. That's a question mark, an entirely unknown thing. And it doesn't mean that you couldn't figure it out. And I'm sure plenty of couples like go fast, have conflict later after they've committed, and they do figure it out.

SPEAKER_01 26:34

Okay, I'm gonna bring up the exception to the rule, George Clooney. Oh god, yeah. They don't fight him and Amal. If they don't fight, it means they don't know each other deeply and profoundly.

SPEAKER_02 26:48

And I'll I will stand by that.

SPEAKER_01 26:50

You don't think they're just so nice?

SPEAKER_02 26:52

No.

SPEAKER_01 26:52

Clooney seems so nice.

SPEAKER_02 26:54

If they're so nice, they don't know each other. Because the point of a deeply intimate relationship is you're not always gonna be nice, you're gonna be honest and real.

SPEAKER_01 27:04

And when I'm verbally abusive to you, it means that I love you from the bottom of my life. I know you're joking. You are never verbally abusive to me. When I'm like, Gallie, make me some bananas foster. You don't think that's abuse?

SPEAKER_02 27:18

No, I would only ever make you bananas foster if I wanted to, and you would always respect consent. You're the best. But really I believe in the power of like conflict and knowing each other better through that. And and when you're your fullest, most honest self, it is going to clash with your partner in many ways at many times. And that's important to both like allow and journey through and figure out together. You know, they haven't yet fought. I mean, they're racing towards to spoil, she does get pregnant, Izzy, and then they decide to get married. And this isn't, you know, in the span of six episodes, this all goes down. He's kind of quietly, once they she learns she's pregnant, like going, like, yes, like I made it happen. I'm gonna have a baby. I manifested. I would really spend a lot of time exploring that with Steve, and and talk about how like one way to handle this could be like a problem-solving mindset. Go out, find someone who wants kids that you like, that is able to have kids, and go for it. You know, like in the end, that might be the way for him. And a lot of this is gonna be unknowns that with him, I would do a lot of opening up and not giving advice, but really helping him see this choice, raise the question of can we fix the crisis of aging? Any of us? Does any problem-solving move make us feel better about it or make us feel like resolved about it? Or is really the only thing to do? Acceptance.

SPEAKER_01 29:00

Accept death and breathe.

SPEAKER_02 29:02

Well, you know, a lot of aging anxiety is ultimately just death anxiety.

SPEAKER_01 29:07

I'm afraid to die. You are sure. Yeah, it seems so scary. Yeah, I won't be able to listen to any more music.

SPEAKER_02 29:15

Confronting death anxiety, it doesn't mean you have to, you know, like in therapy, you have to get to a place where you're like totally cool with dying. It's more like noticing, allowing the fear and having a relationship with that part of you and what it even means to you, right? Because it means different things to different people. Sometimes people are concerned with like not being remembered or the afterlife and consciousness and pain and or who you'll leave behind the hurt of others, you know, all these things. But yeah, like I would really want to get into the aging of it all and maybe consider what he might be trying to fix by becoming a dad at this age, by dating someone younger at this age. But maybe in the interest of time, I'll move on to Alice. Yeah, that would be all stuff I'd want to explore with him, and we'd see where it

Alice’s Rage Marriage And Selfishness

SPEAKER_02 30:05

would go. With Alice, what happens with Alice is she's really pissed at Steve, and she kind of makes it her mission to kind of like ruin him for dating her daughter. And he's like a semi-famous hairstylist, Steve. So she kind of like goes after his reputation as a hairstylist. So he like loses a bunch of clients.

SPEAKER_01 30:27

I think he's Charlie XCX's hairstylist.

SPEAKER_02 30:29

Yes, he has like all these celebrity clients that she kind of sabotages their relationship by outing him for something I'm forgetting exactly what now. Some embarrassing story that was like a client told him that he wasn't supposed to show it fecal. Totally. It was like some bathroom accident kind of thing. She's like makes it her, and some of that's pretty funny. Sorry, I'm yawning. Some of that's pretty funny. The trying to ruin him, of course, they play it for laughs. And in her doing this and her kind of obsessing about this, her current husband is pretty like disgusted with her for behaving this way. And he's starting to look at her in a different light. He's seeing her as pretty selfish, and she kind of admits that there's a selfishness there. He's maybe a little bit sick of being expected to just be the like stable, always available one, and she gets to be the one who's like joyful and goes out and has this best friend that she gets all these joy needs met with, and he's kind of just like there. He says at one point that, like, to like every wedding they've been invited to in their marriage, she brings Steve and she doesn't bring him. Oh yeah. Yeah, which is crazy. That's painful, right? Because Steve's the fun one.

SPEAKER_01 31:43

That's criminal.

SPEAKER_02 31:45

And and he the husband is helping himself realizing and helping her realize, like, you're having your cake and eating it too. Like both Steve and she are, you know, she's got this fun friend that she's maybe not boundaried enough with, and she's over-bounded with husband and puts him kind of in a corner to meet her stability needs. And she ends up even losing her job because he tries to ruin her then back, Steve, and she loses her job. So their lives like start to really unravel in the process of this.

SPEAKER_01 32:16

I think you said at one point this is more stressful than Cape Fear.

SPEAKER_02 32:19

Because it's real, it's like more relatable. And then she's dealing with, you know, her daughter being pregnant with her best friend's baby and like the pain of that, and and she herself was not married and was only shortly dating someone when she got pregnant, and she wants to discourage the daughter from having the baby, but also like the daughter's aware that she wouldn't exist. Mom had done that, so that's complex. So there's a lot going on for Alice. So again, I would start with the same question of you know, what brings you to therapy now? And I imagine if this is like at the point we last saw Alice with all this unraveling, I could see her wanting to just kind of understand what the fuck's going on in her life and her role in it.

SPEAKER_01 33:02

I know, yeah. I don't have as succinct of a log line for her therapy.

SPEAKER_02 33:07

Well, she's dealing with aging too. The show does a great job of like keeping to that theme. Because when she's with Steve at that bar, they're talking all about how like we used to be so cool and kind of trying to fit in with this younger group while they're in their 50s. And at one point she sees a young guy kind of eyeing her while Steve is talking to a younger woman, and she's kind of like interested in like being approached by him and getting ready for him to come up to her. And when he comes up to her, he's like, Are you Izzy's mom? And she has that, like, you know, realization of like, oh, this young guy would only be looking at me because he knows my daughter. And there's like a confronting of her aging in that moment. Yeah. And even like, I think the uniqueness of like aging for women in like you can have a best friend who's your age, and they could just get together with someone way younger. Now, she could do that too. She really could, but it wouldn't change her ability to have a child. There is a difference where men, heterosexual men, can find someone just with like younger reproductive organs and have this chance.

SPEAKER_01 34:15

And get a baby.

SPEAKER_02 34:17

So it's like there's a I'm sure a feeling of distance from this very close friend in his choice to do this and deal with his aging this way. And I think it seems like one way that she's dealing with aging is like perpetual adolescence with Steve. They're going out to the bar and drinking and leaving her husband at home. They're like doing cocaine. They're, you know, they're doing things that are more common, especially in England, in like a younger group clubbing. She's sort of like not fully embracing the stage she's at where her children are the age of going out like that.

SPEAKER_01 34:58

Yeah. Well, she's not embracing her husband.

SPEAKER_02 35:00

And she's not embracing the reality of like you're married to someone else.

SPEAKER_01 35:04

You're married to a joyless man.

SPEAKER_02 35:07

A different man than this one that you're like going out and having all your fun with, and having kind of like rebellious fun, as if you know, she's rebelling from parents when really she has a husband and a family of her own.

SPEAKER_01 35:20

She seems pretty tight with the daughter.

SPEAKER_02 35:22

Yeah, and she and the daughter have a great relationship. Yeah, they're very close. She's a good mom. The son loves her too. And at the same time, she is selfish. Who is it? Well, exactly. You know, all of us have a selfish part, really. Selfish parts are there for a reason. They're protective in their own way. All of us need to be selfish in many instances to survive and thrive. And I would want to like examine it and the choices. And again, I would ask her, you know, what about this whole situation bothers you the most? And something that bothers her a lot is feeling like she's losing her best friend and losing her daughter.

SPEAKER_01 36:00

I was gonna say that was what I was gonna say. And her husband.

SPEAKER_02 36:03

And her husband. Her husband does ask for a separation, at least a temporary one, and she loses her job by clinging to this perpetual adolescence with Steve and partying with him like they're in their 20s when they're not together. They're kind of enabling this like childish way of solving problems, which is causing more problems, and there's no real adults around reading them in because they are adults.

SPEAKER_01 36:30

What's the technique, would you say? The therapeutic technique? No, the technique of that they're employing to perpetuate their just total chaos. Pleasure pleasure principle question. Do what feels good.

SPEAKER_02 36:43

Yeah, doing what you want, what's comfortable, rather than maybe what's most meaningful. Leaving your husband at home and and going out to party with your fun friend, who's very easy to party with and have make jokes with and have joy with, who someone who comes really easily to that frivolous fun is comfortable. That's a reality and feels good, and there's a real bond there and engaging with that relationship, wanting that as natural, is it aligned with your values or not? And it may require us to really like iron out and name those values.

SPEAKER_01 37:20

Well, I think a value for both of them would be human connection.

SPEAKER_02 37:23

Definitely. Humor, joy. I mean, joys and emotion. Can you really nurture this friendship with Steve and have a lot of fun with him and adventure with him and have a little bit of a better balance with your partner? Or do you need a new more or right? Or do you need to reckon with the idea that your marriage has reached its conclusion for both you and the husband? Maybe there's a happier path. Maybe you start a new relationship with your husband and you change the setup, which can be done. But could it possibly are are there things you need to face here more than escape? And I think they're both trying to escape death. Getting older, watching your children make their own choices, letting your friend make his own choices, loss of control, yeah, loss of options, evolution of a marriage into maybe a place that is no longer satisfying, maybe it once was. A lot of times in therapy, that's what we ultimately get to. Like, what's here that you've been trying to escape that maybe we could consider facing to give you a deeper sense of wholeness. So you're trading comfort for kind of a sense of like solidness at your core.

SPEAKER_01 38:39

It's like blue pill, red pill. Totally. I forget which is which, but same.

SPEAKER_02 38:43

Take the one that's the truth, and maybe help them notice where okay, the strategy here is to escape this. How's that going?

SPEAKER_01 38:50

Poor.

SPEAKER_02 38:51

And really the show, it's a one disaster after the next.

SPEAKER_01 38:55

It's a rat's nest.

SPEAKER_02 38:57

One disaster after another. One disaster after another. That's a better way to say that. But do we want to do a how-wise is and our how-wise is it today?

Is Befriending Neighbors Wise?

SPEAKER_01 39:06

Is How eyes is it to befriend your neighbors?

SPEAKER_02 39:11

I mean, I've had I've had various experiences where like neighbors were quick to like be kind and friendly, and some experiences where they've not been. Those are the two options. Well, sometimes there's some in the middle where you have like a pretty cordial but distant relationship.

SPEAKER_01 39:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:28

And in some cases, like people are like genuine friends with their neighbors.

SPEAKER_01 39:31

Right. Best friends.

SPEAKER_02 39:33

Well, that sounds lovely if you can make that happen.

SPEAKER_01 39:36

Like hey, my friendship. My old next door neighbor signed Arkatuba. And he was on the podcast. Yes. Sir Michel Ari. Yeshinski. Yeshinski.

SPEAKER_02 39:47

Yeah, totally. Shout out. Shout out. Yeah, and when I was young, two of my best friends lived on my block. And I shout out to Callie and Britta. Have those times passed. Like in the world.

SPEAKER_01 39:58

Could you have a neighborhood friend?

SPEAKER_02 40:00

Well, we're in a place now where the neighbors in this neighborhood are friendlier and like more open to being friends. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:09

They called me John, they called me James.

SPEAKER_02 40:11

Yeah, yeah. They were kind of getting Josh's name wrong. But they remembered you. But they remembered my name. And our neighbor Michelle, who seems great, she does like actually chow with us. Her dog Barkley loves to chow with us. Loves to bark. Loves to bark at us. And the downstairs neighbor is a little bit chatty too. They're definitely boundried. Michelle, less so. But the downstairs neighbor, Alex, is definitely boundried, but friendly. We definitely have more connection. Like our neighbors in our last place. RJ next door was great, and he would always say hi, but we didn't like know him. It was just like hello that we'd say. Hello. And he's really sweet, you could tell. Very like kind soul. Enjoy the nice weather. Yes. Have a good day, always.

SPEAKER_01 40:58

I'm enjoying the weather. The neighbors on the other side, very cold and unfriendly. I think we've heard him on the pod. If you heard someone screaming through the walls, going, Oh yeah, big sports fans. Real football.

SPEAKER_02 41:10

And their dogs are nuts.

SPEAKER_01 41:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:14

That was tough. But I've had like the place I lived before that, the girl across the hall I was friends with, she was incredibly friendly. So she would talk. We didn't like hang out, but we would chat. And she texted me once. Actually, you know, this happens when you're living in a city like Chicago sometimes, but she heard gunshots one night and she texted me right away. She's like, Did you hear that? And I was like, I did. What was that? And she's like, I think it was gunshots.

SPEAKER_01 41:39

That's community.

SPEAKER_02 41:40

I appreciated that she reached out.

SPEAKER_01 41:42

Did you huddle together?

SPEAKER_02 41:43

No, we didn't. We just texted for a second about it. But okay, I think if you can make a real friendship happen, that's absolutely wise. Of course. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:52

But it's hard. I would skew wise. I think it forces you to be able to have boundaries. Because I think that's uncomfortable. And I remember, remember when I was gonna go outside and and meditate? Because I'll meditate out on the back porch and I was scared to go out and meditate because Michelle and Barkley were also out on their porch and they always kind of want to chat. Yeah. And I said, This is ridiculous that I'm about to not go. Yeah. I'll always think to myself, I'll think, oh, I'm such a Grinch.

SPEAKER_02 42:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:22

Which I don't know. I I love people. I also value my solace.

SPEAKER_02 42:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:26

My solace. My quantum of solace. But I did go and meditate. I think I had an energy of I'm doing my thing. Yeah. And then there have been multiple times since then I went outside and said hi. Yeah. And then one time I went outside and I was kind of like, I'm always walking out and looking over. Oh, does she want to chat? Because I want, I need to, I need to, I need to, I need to. Okay. What's the word I'm trying to look for? I need to perform. I need to perform if she's gonna be friendly.

SPEAKER_02 42:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:58

I don't want to be leaving her out in the cold. Right.

SPEAKER_02 43:00

Yeah, I feel that too. I'm like, if she's out there, I gotta chat, even if I'm gonna be late.

SPEAKER_01 43:04

But I think she was building a grill with her husband, and I thought to myself, oh, they probably, maybe if anything, are thinking, oh, I hope Josh doesn't talk to us right now because we're stressed about building this grill. Or they even just didn't even notice me. Yeah. That's healing in a way to think overall we're gonna be friendly. Were they to invite us to dinner? I'd go. I'm open, I would go.

SPEAKER_02 43:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:26

I don't know if we're on that, on that tip.

SPEAKER_02 43:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:29

Yeah. I don't think I need to blow up the relationship because sometimes I want to go out and meditate and not chat with them.

SPEAKER_02 43:34

Yeah, you can't be afraid to leave your house.

SPEAKER_01 43:36

You know, and I think more and more we're all terrified of um human interaction. Yeah. You don't know what's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_02 43:44

Right.

SPEAKER_01 43:45

You might have to make small talk.

SPEAKER_02 43:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:47

You don't know what they're gonna say. Yeah. And you have biz and you have busy. You've gotta get to your job. You've gotta get to your nail salon. Yeah, your haircut. Your haircut, you've got to get to Blockbuster, return that late video.

SPEAKER_02 44:02

Right. In 1990.

SPEAKER_01 44:03

In 1990, and then go chat with all your neighbors about it.

SPEAKER_02 44:06

So yeah, I think it you're right, actually. It can teach you the neighbor relationship, because it like can sneak up on you, right? And it's harder to have boundaries when they're just like right outside your house. It teaches you how to trust that like overall we're gonna have this nice bond, but not every moment am I available to do an actual chat. But I'm always available to be like hi and acknowledge. Exactly. Okay, it's wise, like it's wise, full stop.

SPEAKER_01 44:31

Full stop.

SPEAKER_02 44:31

And not every neighbor is friendly, so it's like you can also radically accept that, like, okay, these are not the neighbors you're friends with, with certain neighbors.

SPEAKER_01 44:39

But even if they're not friendly, you meet them with a grin and you shake their hand.

SPEAKER_02 44:43

Are neighbors on the other side when you're looking at the house on the right side there? I haven't met any of them. Yeah, I'm not sure they exist. Well, I've seen on the back porch up there a couple that I've kind of tried to make eye contact with and say hi to, and they're they're pretty actively avoiding me. Oh, interesting. So I'm like, okay, I guess this isn't gonna happen. Now I wouldn't have.

SPEAKER_01 45:02

Because they're quite young. Maybe they think we're quite old.

SPEAKER_02 45:05

I don't know. Maybe they think we got they're that much younger than us.

SPEAKER_01 45:08

You think they think we got cooties?

SPEAKER_02 45:09

The downstairs neighbor did say, like, oh, the people next door are great. And I was like, oh, really? But she might mean the people on the first floor who I have not yet seen. Oh I think she does mean that.

SPEAKER_01 45:19

We've only seen the balcony people.

SPEAKER_02 45:20

Yeah, the second floor people I think keep to themselves a bit.

SPEAKER_01 45:22

I think he's always grilling Franks.

SPEAKER_02 45:24

They're always grilling meat up there.

SPEAKER_01 45:27

I gotta like get some of that meat.

SPEAKER_02 45:28

Maybe they're on some kind of like keto paleo type thing.

SPEAKER_01 45:32

Yeah, we gotta bring them some pharaoh. Well, I don't know if they like the pharaoh. Faro? Pharaoh.

SPEAKER_02 45:37

We might have to bring them like some links. It is wise to befriend your neighbors, but let us know

How To Reach Us And Closing

SPEAKER_02 45:42

what you think. For sure. And if you want to reach me, you want to work with me, you want to be on the pod, you have questions or topics or anything, you can reach out to me at kkpsychotherapy.com and send me an inquiry there.

SPEAKER_01 45:57

If you want to ask me to edit your podcast, you can reach me at joshbearfilms.com. That's not JoshBayer Podcast, but I will edit a film. And I will edit a podcast too.

SPEAKER_02 46:11

Yeah, you'll edit just about anything.

SPEAKER_01 46:13

I'll edit just about anything. As long as it's ethical. I'll edit a cookie video.

unknown 46:19

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 46:19

So, and if you want to rate our pod, please feel free.

SPEAKER_02 46:23

Please rate and review the pod. It helps people discover us.

SPEAKER_01 46:26

Maybe you've been loving it, want to talk about it, share it. Yes. And text us in the pod interface. Yeah. You can find it.

SPEAKER_02 46:34

And watch Alice and Steve if you're into this little synopsis. We spoiled quite a bit. But the Wisemind Happy Hour Podcast is for entertainment purposes only, not to be treated as medical advice. If you are struggling with your mental health, please seek medical attention or counseling.