The DBT Consultation Agreement - Pt. 02

Jon rejoins us for our robust analysis of the last 3 tenets of the DBT Consultation Agreement: 1) observing limits, 2) the non-judgmental stance and 3) the fallibility agreement.

💿 music by blanket forts 💿

Transcript

We’re Back And Feeling Off

SPEAKER_02 0:04

Welcome to the Wisemind Happy Hour. I'm Kelly. And I'm John. We're back. We're back. We're really back. We've missed you, John, for two weeks. It's been a while. Yeah. Feels like forever and a day. It really does feel like forever. I was thinking that. I'm like, man, we're really back in the game. We're back. So tell us about your time. Whoa. This is like moving down. John's mic is falling asleep.

SPEAKER_01 0:26

I like it though. It's nodding off. Um yeah, so I was away. Um I also today felt like one of those days where I just felt sweaty all day. Do you ever have that? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Like I it wasn't that hot out. No. But I feel like no matter what I did. It's like stuffy. If you can't pick that up in the audio, you could probably pick it up in the video. Yeah. Glistening.

SPEAKER_02 0:48

Wouldn't that be crazy if they could pick it up in the audio?

SPEAKER_01 0:51

Then I'm sweating.

SPEAKER_02 0:52

You're like sweating so much, it's like the drift. I just want to give people that are only listening a little feel for what's going on. Even now you feel like it.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

They have felt hot all day.

SPEAKER_02 1:02

Yeah. Are you getting sick? I don't think so.

SPEAKER_01 1:04

Josh has a little bit of a cold. It's not like that type of feeling. It's more of just I don't even know what it is. Like a moment of just like feeling cool for a consistent amount of time.

SPEAKER_02 1:15

Well, you've also been traveling and like harried. And sometimes like if you don't have if you don't have normal sleep, it can like make your whole body kind of do whatever.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

Maybe that's what it is. It's out of whack.

SPEAKER_02 1:26

Your body's trying to cool itself when it's really like just tired or it doesn't know what it wants. It doesn't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

My body's out of control. My body's a wonderland. It's also out

West Coast Trip And Food Culture

SPEAKER_01 1:35

of control. Uh no, we I was on the West Coast. We went, we took vacation, family vacation. We started off in Seattle, which was amazing. Seattle's a beautiful city. Have you been?

SPEAKER_02 1:45

I haven't spent like a ton of time there.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

Neither have I, but I love it.

SPEAKER_02 1:48

I I remember like Pike Place Market.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

Yeah, you gotta go there. I mean, we were with my kids, so we wanted to do a lot of the touristy stuff because it's it's cool. And so we did the Space Needle, we did the armory, um, the pop culture museum, and then we drove a car, rental car to Mount Rainier. Oh, everything closes at like 8 p.m. Wow, it's an early town.

SPEAKER_02 2:12

Yeah, I could see that. People there are probably getting up early, they're hiking.

SPEAKER_01 2:15

So yeah, we did that, and then we went to Portland and ended the trip there. Oh, and I've never been to Portland. We were there with my sister-in-law, my brother-in-law, and my nieces, and my oldest niece, Hazel, was in a musical newsies. So I got to see her in Newsies, which was so cute. Was she a Christian band? So she was less, and she just like lit it up. It was great. Nice. That's so cute. It was great. It was so, so great.

SPEAKER_02 2:41

These nieces you have that are like in Portland. Yes. Do you notice like cultural differences and how they're raised, like being Portland kids versus like Chicago kids?

SPEAKER_01 2:51

I think their food choices are a little bit wider of a range.

SPEAKER_02 2:56

Yeah, I could see that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:58

Yet still picky, if that makes sense. Maybe what I'm trying to say is it's more adventurous, wider range of being adventurous, still picky eaters because they're kids. Yeah. But you know, they're fine with getting Boba T, the sushi from a food truck. Like, like they're okay with like that type of stuff, because that's just culturally what food trucks are everywhere because food trucks, you know, for some reason Chicago's got an issue with them.

SPEAKER_02 3:23

Yeah, they're like street.

SPEAKER_01 3:25

You can't like park them anywhere.

SPEAKER_02 3:27

When Josh and I we went to this one film festival in Montana, and the family who like produced the film, they all live in California, and they offered this like breakfast option at the like meet and greet we were at. And one was like this pork thing with like sweet potato. Okay, and the other one was a vegetarian option. And I was like, Oh, I'm getting that pork thing. All of that family ordered the veg. And I was like, This, I think this is like California, a function of their being from California that they're kind of doing vegetarian more. Interesting. I honestly would have totally enjoyed the vegetarian option, but I was kind of like, that pork looks nice. And I'm like, maybe like if I grew up in California, the idea of pork in the morning would be like crazy to me.

SPEAKER_03 4:09

Yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_02 4:10

You know, like fresh vegetables, and and I was kind of like, that's so nice. That like every single one of them was like, oh, definitely the vegetarian option.

SPEAKER_01 4:16

What about you guys? What did I miss out on uh other than recording without

Ranking States And Arguing Metrics

SPEAKER_01 4:20

me?

SPEAKER_02 4:20

I know I'm like oh, we went to Michigan.

SPEAKER_01 4:22

You know, I have a bone to pick with Michigan because they ranked all 50 states.

SPEAKER_02 4:26

We haven't heard this.

SPEAKER_01 4:27

There was like some USA Today, which who reads USA Today?

SPEAKER_02 4:30

I know. I can't believe it's still being published.

SPEAKER_01 4:32

Where do you ever see a USA Today other than like a hotel lobby or something?

SPEAKER_02 4:36

Truly, like just on a coffee table, like an absentia.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

Yeah. And there's nothing to it, it's the thinnest paper. There's not much meat to it. But on my phone, for some reason, and that is clickbait for me when there's like a ranking of things. It was we ranked all 50 states, and I didn't even look at the metrics at all. I just wanted to know where places fell. Yeah. Michigan was in the bottom five.

SPEAKER_02 4:58

Oh Really?

SPEAKER_01 5:00

How is that possible?

SPEAKER_02 5:01

That's not possible, right?

SPEAKER_01 5:03

The bottom five.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

So what's your bone to pick?

SPEAKER_02 5:05

Is Florida done?

SPEAKER_01 5:06

I just don't think that that's true.

SPEAKER_00 5:08

Michigan's gotta be uh higher than that.

SPEAKER_02 5:10

I love Michigan.

SPEAKER_00 5:11

That's your bone to pick with the USA today. Correct. Not with Michigan. Thank you for that. I thought you thought Michigan should be even lower. I have no bones to pick.

SPEAKER_02 5:19

I have a bone to pick of Michigan.

SPEAKER_01 5:21

With, yes, on behalf.

SPEAKER_02 5:23

Yeah. Where was Wisconsin?

SPEAKER_01 5:24

Michigan is it Michiganders?

SPEAKER_02 5:26

Michiganders, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:27

Is that what they call you? Michigan Michiganians?

SPEAKER_01 5:29

Michigans. They call them Michiganians. Um, I believe Wisconsin was uh 16, 15, 16. Illinois was not the best. It was in the 30s. It was in the 30s. Minnesota, though. Top five.

SPEAKER_02 5:46

What the fuck? It's cold there.

SPEAKER_01 5:49

I'm just saying.

SPEAKER_02 5:50

Top five states?

SPEAKER_01 5:51

It's like have they been by Greta Cross. We're coming for you, Greta. So the top five, number one, Utah, number two, South Dakota. Boring. South number three, Minnesota, number four, North Dakota, and number five, Nebraska.

SPEAKER_02 6:09

Someone's uncle wrote this. It's like ridiculous.

SPEAKER_01 6:12

Talk about some boring, what would appear to be boring states. Now we're gonna get a lot of hate mail from these. Um my God. Okay, let's see here. States that we have some interest in. So Wisconsin's 15.

SPEAKER_02 6:25

Kansas is 24. Okay, Illinois Kansas is better than Michigan?

SPEAKER_01 6:29

Illinois' 37.

SPEAKER_02 6:30

Which I thought someone like took an ambient and made those.

SPEAKER_01 6:33

50 is Louisiana.

SPEAKER_02 6:34

Maybe 50 is where New Orleans is. Yeah, but that's gonna be underwater.

SPEAKER_01 6:39

I mean, I'm not saying that it's a terrible thing.

SPEAKER_02 6:42

Even with the risks of going in or something.

SPEAKER_01 6:45

Each state was analyzed in eight categories. Education, healthcare, economy, infrastructure, opportunity, fiscal stability. That's your hit right there on Illinois.

SPEAKER_02 6:55

Oh, I I didn't realize these were the metrics.

SPEAKER_01 6:57

Natural environment and crime and corrections.

SPEAKER_02 7:00

Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 7:03

So that changes your view. You still think Michigan should be bottom?

SPEAKER_02 7:06

It doesn't make me think like this state's better than that state. It's like, oh, they're actually taking these like metrics that are like it's not an uncle with ambient ambient. It's not an uncle with the Chicago, of course, is rife. I mean, any of these states with like big metropolises have real issues.

SPEAKER_01 7:22

South Dakota's had some much easier task of managing crime than Chicago and also managing like people's pensions because there's not that many people. Where's Montana? Montana doesn't have anybody. Montana's 29.

SPEAKER_02 7:35

We we really enjoyed Montana when we went. It's got too much crime. We went to Missoula.

SPEAKER_01 7:39

Missoula.

SPEAKER_02 7:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:41

Missoula.

SPEAKER_02 7:41

It was it was pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 7:43

I mean, Washington, where it just I was visiting, number nine.

SPEAKER_02 7:47

Wow, yeah. I could see that. Like, there are cities with much better infrastructure. You know what's a state. And Detroit is probably way in down Michigan, I think.

SPEAKER_01 7:54

Number six is New Hampshire. That's a state I just forget as a state. I didn't know Vermont was a state until like seventh grade. That's okay.

SPEAKER_02 8:00

I remember my friend was like, my cousins live in Vermont. And I was like, what's Vermont?

SPEAKER_01 8:04

You're like, Vermont, New Hampshire? People love Vermont, yeah. Uh it's picturesque. They like won't allow. Remember that thing where they is that still true? They won't allow like Walmarts there or something? Really? Because they want to keep all the mom and pops.

SPEAKER_00 8:17

This is a responsible list. I love this list. It's so adult.

SPEAKER_01 8:21

We're gonna post this list. Thank you, Greta Cross from the USA Today.

SPEAKER_02 8:24

Thank you for your service.

SPEAKER_01 8:26

For your service and not taking ambience.

SPEAKER_02 8:28

We don't have that much to report. We had kind of a low-key weekend. I like that though. What did we do even?

Lollapalooza Confusion And City Crowds

SPEAKER_01 8:33

Wait, are you going to Lollapalooza?

SPEAKER_02 8:34

Oh my, this is so funny that you just said that. Someone mentioned to me, like, I need to kind of get out of my apartment area because of Lala. And I literally go, I go, who's Lala? They were like, Lollapalooza. I was like, I'm so old that I like forgot about Lollapalooza, forgot when it was. And when someone mentioned it, I literally thought it was like a friend of theirs they were talking about. That is really funny. I was I laughed so hard. I'm like, I'm like a thousand years old. Like in the air, their area they were staying with their parents. Oh, okay. Because it was gonna be busy. Can you believe that I like literally I said I said out loud, who is it's like it is like your crazy old aunt being like, no, is that a play?

SPEAKER_01 9:17

Is that so?

SPEAKER_02 9:18

No, we are not going to Lala Plus. Is that your neighbor?

SPEAKER_01 9:20

No, we're too old. I would go, but it's hard. We talked about this as a How Wise Is It. Yeah. Long festivals. Yeah. It's a grind.

SPEAKER_02 9:29

It's a grind. Like the music itself is fun if there are good acts, but it's like it is a sea of the most difficult people.

SPEAKER_01 9:38

It's not supposed to be that hot this weekend. It is supposed to rain though. Oh, is it? I think it's supposed to rain on Saturday.

SPEAKER_02 9:45

Man, it's hard when it rains the years it rains. It's hard. Because they close it for part of it, and then we we were at Pitchfork once where it rained a bunch in the middle and so much got canceled.

SPEAKER_00 9:54

It always rains during Kurtville. Does it at least two or three times? He also always plays pitchfork.

SPEAKER_01 9:59

I don't think I make it a point to try to get out of the city when it's lullaby.

SPEAKER_02 10:04

No, it wasn't like getting out of the city. It was like this person's apartment is like in the in the heart of the district. Okay, got it. In the what the belly of the beast.

SPEAKER_01 10:11

The belly of the beast, the furnace.

SPEAKER_02 10:13

I think at that point you kind of have to like get out of there.

SPEAKER_01 10:16

Because she's a trap. Because she's coming. Lawless.

SPEAKER_02 10:20

Who's Lala? I can't believe I was like, no, who's Lawless?

SPEAKER_01 10:23

That's how far removed you are, Kelly. It's only gonna get worse from here.

SPEAKER_02 10:26

That's crazy. I know. I know. Well, well, we also live in Logan Square, which is west. So we're like nowhere near any of that.

SPEAKER_00 10:32

But when there's the farmers market every Sunday, we try to get out of town.

SPEAKER_02 10:36

The farmers market has gotten so busy.

SPEAKER_00 10:38

Yeah, I bet.

SPEAKER_02 10:38

When I used to live here, it was like one eighth the size. Now it's like it's like a Lollapalooza every time.

SPEAKER_01 10:45

Do you think everybody's going there to try to find fresh lettuce that's not infected by this?

SPEAKER_02 10:50

Cycle of spora.

Smoke Anxiety Then Dinner Party Planning

SPEAKER_02 10:51

Well, okay. Speaking of that, right when we got to Michigan was both the smoke and the cycle aspora.

SPEAKER_01 10:55

Oh, the smoke was really bad right before we left for our our trip, too. Really bad. Almost really bad. Does it feel like post-apocalyptic? Yeah. That one night, very hazy. Everybody's got the masks on. Yeah. It just feels creepy and weird. Yeah. I mean, it's a little bit more.

SPEAKER_02 11:11

Yeah, it does feel like the earth is like rejecting us.

SPEAKER_01 11:14

Yeah. I had a dentist appointment. The night it was really bad at five. And I just I had to take the kids. I didn't have, I was like, you're just going with me. And when we got out, we like looked around and it just felt so weird. Yeah. Didn't feel like there was many people out, understandably. So you don't want to be breathing that in. You couldn't see down the street. It's like yellow. Oh. It's like this is the these kids' future. It's sad.

SPEAKER_02 11:40

I know. And those crazy wildfires in France and Spain.

SPEAKER_01 11:44

Don't you get the feeling it's coming undone? I mean, it has been for a while. Oh, yeah. But the more and more these things are happening, it's really a sad day.

SPEAKER_02 11:53

Well, it's like we went to Michigan, you know, to be outside in the summer, as Michigan is a wonderful state for Michiganders.

SPEAKER_01 12:00

We love you.

SPEAKER_02 12:01

Yeah. We would, you know, we're gonna go on Josh's mom's boat. We were gonna like be outside, do a bunch of things outside. We had to stay inside the whole weekend. Yeah, it was kind of nutty.

SPEAKER_01 12:10

Ugh. Yeah, it's like it's coming apart.

SPEAKER_02 12:12

Well, Ana, here's a lighter note. Give me a lighter note before we transition. Josh and I scheduled our first guests, like like not you, but like guest guests to come to our place for a dinner party. Oh, nice. Yeah. Which we have to have you and Sarah and the boys come.

SPEAKER_01 12:27

Or two too or the tear this place apart. I can't wait.

SPEAKER_02 12:30

We would love it. We would love to have a couple.

SPEAKER_01 12:32

When is the dinner party? So I can come. Next Friday. Perfect.

SPEAKER_02 12:35

And I'm really excited about it. It's exciting to like kind of break this place in a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 12:41

How much are you ruminating about the menu?

SPEAKER_02 12:43

I mean, that's all I thought about today.

SPEAKER_01 12:45

You think I didn't know? You think I don't know. You I guarantee you're like walking back and forth into the room and you're like, maybe we'll do this.

SPEAKER_02 12:52

It's like every time I see Josh, I'm like, what do you think about? Right. And I said to Josh, because we have to do a gluten-free, dairy-free menu, you would love this. I mean, you can't.

SPEAKER_01 13:02

No, I wouldn't love the dairy-free, but I would be all on board for the gluten-free.

SPEAKER_02 13:06

So I was like, What about skirt steak with chimichurry?

SPEAKER_01 13:11

Yeah, that sounds great.

SPEAKER_02 13:12

And then Josh is like, That's exactly what you cooked the last time we did this with them. And I was like, Stop. And he's like, Yeah. Which I didn't remember.

SPEAKER_00 13:22

It was three years ago.

SPEAKER_02 13:23

It was three years ago. So that's probably fine. But I must have been the same time of year, and probably we were trying to do no gluten and dairy because I used to not eat much gluten and dairy. So it was probably a similar kind of context. Is there a different form of steak you could do? Part of me likes skirt steak because I feel like it's flavorful. It goes well with chimichuri, and it's not like I'm not gonna spend $95 on it.

SPEAKER_01 13:45

What about an Asian dish?

SPEAKER_02 13:47

I don't always feel Asian dishes in the summer so much. I want something kind of like more of a cozy dish. Well, I yeah for you. Yes. And I almost think it could be. There's Asian stuff that like would be great for summer, almost like sashimi type stuff. But like I love the idea of kind of we don't have a grill, but almost like grilled skirt steak with chimichuri. It feels so like summer. And I'm going to cook it on the cast iron, but you know, it has this like summer vibe. The other thing I thought was I saw this coconut Chilean sea bass. Sea bass. Now talk about spending $95. But I'd be willing if it was really good. That sounds good. I showed Josh the TikTok where I got it and it looks amazing.

SPEAKER_00 14:27

I think I'm gonna get on the sea bass diet where you sea bass and then you eat bass. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:32

Knowing Kelly, she's not gonna think about it after this conversation. Done deal. She's not gonna bring it up to you ever again. Yeah, I'm gonna be totally wait. When's the dinner party? Like two weeks? Next week. Next week. Oh yeah. You she's not gonna think about it at all.

SPEAKER_02 14:45

I'm gonna be ruminating gone. Chilean sea bass. I know, I'll go back and forth. Should it be sea bass? Should it be swordfish? White fish. Yeah. I don't really like swordfish. I know a lot of people do like it, but for some reason. Tuna's nice, but I don't think a chimichurri would go so well.

SPEAKER_01 15:02

Yeah, true. I had this great Ahi Tuna Crudo in Seattle. It was awesome. Oh, yeah. I love a tuna at this restaurant called the Pink Door. You should go there if you're ever there. It's great. It's you basically walk down an alley and it's literally a pink door. There's no sign or anything on it. You just walk up. Oh, that's so Portland. Just like in the door. There's just like stairs right down, and then there's the bar area, and then it just kind of opens up into a patio and you see out into the water. Um, this was in Seattle. So Oh, in Seattle, sorry. In Seattle. Pink door. But anyway, the Ahituna Crudo was amazing. That sounds great. It was great. And nobody in my family liked it. So I just ate it all.

SPEAKER_02 15:40

The kids didn't? No. Do they never crude? Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:45

That's a hard sell for my kids. Totally, totally.

SPEAKER_02 15:47

Would your nieces have liked it?

SPEAKER_01 15:48

Probably. Yeah. Well, I'm trying to think of the sushi they like. I think the sushi they like doesn't have fish in it. I think they like vegetarian wools. Sushi.

SPEAKER_02 15:57

Okay. God bless. I get pregnant. I'll be eating a lot of veggie sushi. A lot of veggie. Can I have that? Yeah. Can you have it? If it's veggie. Sushi. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Even though it's like near the raw fish. It's hard to do that. I think it's fine.

SPEAKER_01 16:11

Totally. Uh, so okay, dinner party. Where what's the music selection gonna be? Well, Josh, we'll just Josh work on a playlist.

SPEAKER_02 16:17

Yeah, you have to make a playlist.

SPEAKER_00 16:19

I'll just kick out the jams.

SPEAKER_01 16:20

This is Lorelai.

SPEAKER_02 16:21

What did you say?

SPEAKER_00 16:22

It's gonna be straight. This is Lorelei.

SPEAKER_01 16:24

Maybe we'll do a like back to school celebration.

SPEAKER_02 16:27

Yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_01 16:28

To try to make it fun to go back to school.

SPEAKER_02 16:30

Yeah, like celebrate school. Yay!

SPEAKER_01 16:34

Celebrate school. I believe I read somewhere it is a German tradition to have you don't have end-of-the-year parties that you or those aren't as big of a deal when you like finish a grade. They have bigger parties before you start it, because you're like starting a journey.

SPEAKER_02 16:53

Whoa.

SPEAKER_01 16:54

So I think there's like some sort of tradition where it's more about the start of a school year than it is the end of one.

SPEAKER_02 17:00

That is cool. I it's a neat way of looking at it. Yeah. So maybe you're embarking on school years.

SPEAKER_01 17:05

You're embarking on this. We should be celebrating. It's a new year. New year. Maybe that's the dinner party theme.

SPEAKER_02 17:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:12

You could have notebooks.

SPEAKER_02 17:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:14

Number two pencils everywhere.

SPEAKER_02 17:16

New year.

SPEAKER_01 17:17

I'm excited. New you. What kind of cup is that? Is that a yeti? Oh, Hydro Flask.

SPEAKER_02 17:23

Yeah. It's for kids, actually, but I kind of liked it.

SPEAKER_01 17:26

I think it's a good size.

SPEAKER_02 17:27

Yeah, it's nice.

SPEAKER_01 17:29

It's not like a rental like you guys do from that coffee shop, is it?

SPEAKER_02 17:32

Oh my God. Those were so shitty, those mugs. Of course it is. It's like, yeah, because they're giving them away. Crazy. Renting them. Yeah. Oh, I love it. Renting mugs. That's how bad the like millennial economy has gotten.

SPEAKER_03 17:45

We're renting mugs.

SPEAKER_02 17:46

Renting a mug. We're renting our avocado toast. Wasn't that always what they say? Like millennials want avocado toast more than they want a mortgage. I was like, what?

SPEAKER_01 17:56

Right. Or the the other article was if you just didn't buy Starbucks and avocado toast, you could afford a mortgage.

SPEAKER_02 18:02

Which is completely untrue.

SPEAKER_01 18:04

True. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:04

And then you cut to like their parents bought their home for like $20,000. They're like, yeah, we bought a home in the city for $18,000.

SPEAKER_01 18:13

It's great. It's great.

SPEAKER_02 18:15

Yeah. Yeah. I'm pretty sure my dad's law school was like $20,000. That's it's like that's not even like a quarter of a year.

SPEAKER_01 18:23

That's insane. Yeah. College is so expensive. I'm trying not to even think about that, even though I probably should be thinking about budgeting.

SPEAKER_02 18:32

You're just telling your kids like, don't think about college. It's not for you.

SPEAKER_01 18:35

It's not a good choice. You know, in the game of life where you have the two like get a job or go to college, always get the job. Get a job. Apply for a job and get the job.

SPEAKER_02 18:45

Okay, should we go to our okay?

SPEAKER_01 18:48

Well, I'm excited about your dinner party. I do want to hear what you end up making.

SPEAKER_02 18:52

Yeah, I will let you know. I'll let you know. I'm gonna I think I'm gonna test some stuff this weekend, and then we'll see. And I'll make it again. And the dessert. Then I'll make it again. And then I'll make it again.

SPEAKER_01 19:03

And perfect. Repeat.

SPEAKER_02 19:05

Rinse, repeat. I'll even show you the video for the coconut. It's this this TikToker named Terence with three Rs. Um makes some really good stuff. And they have a substack.

SPEAKER_01 19:17

What would be the side? Just out of curiosity before we get potatoes. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 19:21

I'm thinking like a smashed Portuguese potato, which would be like smashed potatoes with scallions.

SPEAKER_01 19:25

Scallions, yeah. That's great.

SPEAKER_02 19:27

And then a salad of some kind.

SPEAKER_01 19:29

I love your salads. I've had them here, you brought them to my house.

SPEAKER_02 19:33

I like a good salad, and I think I'm pretty good at I need to widen the scope of what salads I make, but I get so particular about the taste that it's like I only perfect one after months and months and months.

SPEAKER_01 19:44

You mean like the dressing?

SPEAKER_02 19:46

The ingredients, the dressing, all of it.

SPEAKER_01 19:48

It's gotta be balanced.

SPEAKER_02 19:50

Yeah. And I think I'm pretty picky about what's in there. You know. That's fair. But you know, maybe maybe I'll think of a new salad for this.

SPEAKER_00 19:58

Should we experiment with bok choy?

SPEAKER_01 20:00

Ooh, bok choy.

SPEAKER_02 20:01

In salad?

SPEAKER_01 20:02

I like bok choy.

SPEAKER_02 20:02

Do you like it in salad?

SPEAKER_01 20:03

I don't know if I've ever had it, but I just like bok choy.

SPEAKER_02 20:06

Bok choy is really nice. We had it over the weekend actually at that noodle bird.

SPEAKER_01 20:09

There's gotta be a salad out there with like sauteed. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:12

Yeah, that would be really good with like an Asian noodle dish for sure. Or rice.

SPEAKER_01 20:16

Do you like baby bok choy?

SPEAKER_02 20:18

Baby bok choy is honestly better.

SPEAKER_01 20:19

So cute.

SPEAKER_02 20:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:21

It's a baby.

SPEAKER_02 20:22

So cute.

SPEAKER_01 20:22

I love a baby. It's a baby bok choy.

SPEAKER_00 20:25

We're gonna name our baby choi.

SPEAKER_01 20:26

But the other thing, if people are wondering, if you're watching us on YouTube, uh, right here, we got David Bowie.

SPEAKER_02 20:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:35

Gifted. Yeah. Gifted by my Jish and Kelly.

Birthdays And The Myth Of 44

SPEAKER_01 20:39

Yeah. It is my birthday tomorrow.

SPEAKER_02 20:40

Yeah, tomorrow is John's birthday.

SPEAKER_01 20:41

But it's also Wes's birthday tomorrow. And Wes' his son's birthday. So it's very exciting. So that's why we're excited. Which I'll be playing tomorrow.

SPEAKER_02 20:50

Yeah. If you're watching the video, we've got it on display. But yeah, happy early birthday.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

I appreciate it. I was talking, I I feel good about it. It was my sister-in-law, um, when I was out in Portland, her birthday's in June, and uh, she's the same age as me, and I'm turning 44. And we were laughing because she was like, Yeah, you know, read these articles. That's like that's kind of when it turns. And your body just kind of starts to rapidly, yeah, kind of like rapidly like declining. Oh no. Um, you know, rapidly in quotes, but we were kind of laughing about it. Um that like studies show kind of you know, mid-40s is when you see a lot of like changes, right? And pain more pains and things are a little bit more what should I say, how should I say anthysomic yeah, you know, that type of thing. So maybe a little bit more weight gain, you know, that you're losing muscle mass. So we were just kind of laughing about it. Like, this is it. 44. Yeah. And that's a cliff just kind of down.

SPEAKER_02 21:47

You know, I've heard the cliff thing is exaggerated. Like it does you do decline, but it's not like a cliff.

SPEAKER_01 21:53

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And how could you say it's like one number? But we were just she had just Turned 44 in June, and now I'm turning 44, so we're just kind of laughing about it. She turned 44 and she immediately like got a hunched back. She has one of the walkers with the the tennis balls uh on it. So so 44 and Wes will be 11.

SPEAKER_02 22:13

Wow. Can you believe that?

SPEAKER_01 22:15

Oh, you guys are both like sixth grader and double number.

SPEAKER_02 22:18

Yeah, that's cool. Wow. 44 and 11.

SPEAKER_01 22:22

44 and 11.

SPEAKER_02 22:23

So you're four times his age.

SPEAKER_01 22:25

Cool. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:26

So cool.

SPEAKER_01 22:27

All right. Well, in birthday fashion, let's get back into DBT.

DBT Consultation Agreements Breakdown

SPEAKER_01 22:36

We talked about the consultation agreements for DBT. So definitely go back and listen to that episode. But yeah, I guess in a nutshell, what we're talking about is when we consult on cases about patients that we work with, if we're doing it from a strict dialectical behavior therapy perspective, we try to adhere to these agreements. And so last two, three episodes ago, we went through the first three. So the first one was the dialectical agreement. Should I just read through the Yeah, do it? So the first one, we agree to accept a dialectical philosophy. There is no absolute truth when caught between two conflicting opinions. We agree to look for the truth in both positions as what's being left out. And then uh number two is consultation to the patient agreement. We agree that the primary goal of this group is to improve our own skills as DBT therapists and not serve as a go-between for patients to each other. We agree to not treat patients as fragile or each other, and we agree to treat other group members with the belief that others can speak on their own behalf. And then three was consistency. Because change is a natural life occurrence, we agree to accept diversity and change as they naturally come about.

SPEAKER_02 23:47

Any thoughts on those before we no, no, I think I was looking through them today, and obviously, my kind of my fave is that dialectical number one, you know, holding a dialectical philosophy, not seeing absolute truth anywhere. Right. But looking for like synthesis more than truth.

SPEAKER_01 24:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 24:07

Especially in a group of people or even two people having a conversation about something, you know, like loosening your grip on like there's a truth and we have to like find it or argue it or whatever, but instead, like finding synthesis can be so much more productive, especially in a clinical setting, talking about clients and patients. How do we bring together all the ideas that are at the table and find kind of a natural intuitive synthesis? Yeah. Hold all the variables in the same way.

SPEAKER_01 24:36

I love that. And I love the other two as well. I do as well. And I I love the idea of not treating other people as fragile, right? Or patients, we need to be able to make interventions, and that can be really uncomfortable. And yeah, or even give each other feedback and that can be uncomfortable. Yeah. But not assuming the other person can't handle that. Yeah. Doesn't want that. Uh not fragilizing. So number four, um, and there's we'll get into three again in this episode, is observing limits agreements. So we agree to observe our own limits. As therapists and group members, we agree to not judge or criticize other members for having different limits from our own. For example, too broad, too narrow, quote unquote, just right.

SPEAKER_02 25:21

Yeah, this is an interesting one. Like observe your own limits. Yes. I love this agreement, but I will say it can be hard to always know your limits. Or know which ones are like literally yours. Sure. And not maybe like influenced by other things. Or for me, even like parts of me that wanna people please, want to be a good employee, wanna be the best therapist, you know, and sometimes like really getting into wise mind and noticing like what are my true limits in this situation? Yeah. Can be hard to know, but I think important to do that work.

SPEAKER_01 26:03

I think when you're in a consultation, I have a hard time knowing my limit with pacing.

SPEAKER_02 26:09

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:10

I think in a consultation, I'm like firing off, do that. Like, I want to go here, I want to go there, I want and I don't think I'm observant of not that there's only so much you can do, but there really is only so much you can do in one session. Totally. And so I think I get a a little ahead of myself when thinking about or conceptualizing, we're thinking about different avenues, which I think is exciting and I like doing that. Yeah. But also I need to think what is realistic. Like, great, we have a lot of ideas, even just taking forward into the next session. What would be realistic? I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 26:42

Yeah, I like that.

SPEAKER_01 26:43

I think the pace is.

SPEAKER_02 26:44

Actually, that's so funny. I I feel like I even had stuff with that come up today, even. You know, like therapists can approach like sessions or groups or whatever so differently and really be entirely valid and be totally different. Have you ever heard like therapists talk about like regularly having clients do like a gram or stuff like that, where I'm like, whoa, I am not doing that.

SPEAKER_01 27:08

That's interesting. I no, I don't hear therapists do that. I do remember a huge emphasis put on that when I was in grad school.

SPEAKER_02 27:16

Yes, yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_01 27:17

Everybody was like, if we're talking about this patient, what is the genogram? That's kind of yeah, which is like a family tree almost. Is a family tree. Yeah. And there's different symbols for different things. Um, people that are deceased, people that are separated, divorced, you know, family members, people with addiction issues, people with educational level. Like it's really laid like a map of your family of origin.

SPEAKER_02 27:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 27:45

Huge. I I don't know one person that I don't even remember the last time I heard somebody even say that. To tell you the truth.

SPEAKER_02 27:50

I know, isn't that crazy? My supervisor, my EMDR supervisor, she's like, well, when I do the intake, I always have them do the genogram. And I was like, what? Now she's been a therapist for she's been doing EMDR since 1998 or something.

SPEAKER_01 28:02

Okay, but they they so the person fills that out, the patient.

SPEAKER_02 28:07

Yeah. Or like she does it with them, I think.

SPEAKER_01 28:09

To the casual listener, let's make it clear. You and I care about familial history of our patients.

SPEAKER_02 28:15

100%.

SPEAKER_01 28:16

A genogram, though, is an actual diagram.

SPEAKER_02 28:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:19

So we're still getting relevant family history from our patients when we're working with them. I just want to make that clear. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:26

I think the practice I don't think of other family at all.

SPEAKER_01 28:29

Not at all. I'm scared. Uh but I think the formal practice of a genogram is definitely something that seems a little older school.

SPEAKER_02 28:35

Yeah, it's kind of old school. And if that idea almost like lit me up and I was like, oh wow, people are still doing that. I could do that. And I like talked with her a lot about her style with that and practiced it and then did it and it felt good, great. But I think if to me that feels like it's just not really my style and like my fluidity with I think I do have a more organic, especially even intake style, where like I really just ask a lot of questions and jot and jot and jot and jot things down. And I wait for like what words and like references or even reactions like pique my interest and I kind of dig in more there. It's probably just not in my limits to like grab this diagram. I'm not really like the diagram therapist so much.

SPEAKER_01 29:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:28

It doesn't feel natural, but I think some people find that so comforting and helpful. And and it is a very thorough tool in a consultation. If one person suggested that you do that gram, you don't necessarily have to say, okay, I'm doing that.

SPEAKER_01 29:44

Or judge that person for if that's helpful for them. So yes.

SPEAKER_02 29:50

And actually, you know, this is a very like deep if let's say you go to some therapy program or a therapist who's like a DBT inherent therapist. This question of limits comes up a lot with because I worked at a place that was a little more DBT adherent at one point. And some DBT therapists are on call to their clients 24-7 for phone coaching. For phone coaching, for DBT skills coaching when they're in a crisis moment. Sure. Some therapists at the practice agreed to do it and some didn't. And it was a big thing with this tenant to observe like the therapist themselves is allowed to determine if that is within their limits or not within their limits. And for me, like it it wasn't realistic for me, even just from like my own mental health standpoint. And then beyond that, I think at this point in my career, I don't want it's not that I don't believe in that, but with my caseload of clients, like it wouldn't be appropriate. That's not the type of work that we do.

SPEAKER_01 30:45

So is there a distinction here between knowing your limits of I'm capable of doing it and I'm actively choosing not to, versus area of expertise, I'm not experienced enough or expert, quote unquote, enough knowing that limit.

SPEAKER_02 31:01

I think it's I think it's both. I think it's like, do you want to inside of your realm of practice?

SPEAKER_01 31:06

If you don't have the experience, yeah, if we're consulting on a case and you're recommending X, Y, and Z, EMDR, I don't engage with EMDR. I need to know my own limits and say, I appreciate that feedback. Totally. It's definitely something to look into. I could not provide that service to that patient because that's a limit of mine. I don't practice that.

SPEAKER_02 31:27

Yeah, and you know what?

SPEAKER_01 31:28

That that's a good point too, because like But it's also knowing your boundaries knowing your boundary of the the on-call is a great example or doing the phone coaching. Yeah, it's like yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:37

Cause when I'm in a consultation and people will talk about certain things now that I'm trained in EMDR, I will see stuff from a perspective I didn't see it from before. And I will think, like, oh, I'd be curious if this person has trauma and if they could do reprocessing on it. Something will just kind of pique my interest. But I will say, and I'll give myself this like I never would speak up in a consultation and be like, well, they need to be doing EMDR and they need to be. I would more kind of hold this space of like asking if there's trauma, if they know about that, and sort of like encourage them, like use your lens with that and think of it from the trauma lens. And if it's, you know, PTSD we're looking at, you know, there's a lot of routes. Like you could also get really good consultation from a more trauma-specific therapist and still, you know, because the number one thing is the relationship. So it's like any modality you suggest someone, like if they're not fluid in it and it's outside their limits, and you're saying, well, the person needs to do the modality, so send them to someone else. It's like and break the relationship or alter it. It's a bad idea.

SPEAKER_01 32:39

And that's also something that I always need to be aware of, whether I'm even in DBT strict consultation or just even casual consulting with people, because that's something that I think I make a leap over. Is here's an intervention I'm thinking of. Do you have the rapport to do that intervention? Right. And so that's me needing to take a step back and slow it down. Yes, this could be something to think about in the future in the here and now. Would that even be? Do you even have the rapport yet to maybe challenge or go in this direction in that way? Because I think that is something for me personally, I'll speak to myself. I overlook because again, I'm quick to think about what are we doing? Yeah, totally, totally.

SPEAKER_02 33:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:22

And that's just not pointing out other people, even when I'm thinking about patients. It's like it's one thing to kind of say, Yeah, I want to do this and that. And it's like, but in that moment, even uh recently when I was training somebody, they they had great ideas about like, well, I'm just curious, why didn't you like say this or redirect this person here? And I said to them, you know, the way that the group is structured, this was actually my first time meeting that person. Yeah. And I I'm right there with you. I thought about that, and I had to take a step back and be like, I don't know if I can challenge them in that way just yet. Yeah. I don't know them. Right.

SPEAKER_02 33:56

And that's some of your wise mind, your intuition of like, I just met them. Your like nervous system is aware of that subtly.

SPEAKER_01 34:04

And it was like I had the thought, I wanted to say it, I wanted to go there, and it was a very quick like put a pin in that, maybe somewhere in their treatment, or I'll have them in group again. Maybe I could dip my toe in. But yeah, so that's a definitely a limit that I have to be thinking about is is there enough rapport before I'm just like spouting off? Like I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do that. Right.

SPEAKER_02 34:26

When you observe your own limits, I think it can't be overstated how well that contributes to the relationship. Yes. The relationship of all the therapists in a consultation, the therapist going back to their patient or client, yeah, when you're in your own self-energy, that is the space from which you deeply connect to the client and give them a sense of like safety and connection. Yeah. When you're feeling safe and connected to yourself. So it's more important to observe your own limits than like try a new fangle technique or something that someone else suggests.

SPEAKER_01 34:59

Or even if you do have some experience but not a lot, like well, given your modality that you typically work from, what might this look like? Right. So if you're doing values work, you don't have to do a strict act exercise. Like how what would it be like to approach from your perspective what's most important to somebody or meaningful to somebody? Yeah. And and then you can call on your strengths or or you can have work with people in consultation. And that's what I like is when people show up, like you're saying, respecting their own limits and then getting creative about how they can show up with a concept in a different way. Because then that makes me thinking about it in a different way, which I like.

SPEAKER_02 35:38

Yeah, it's like take the feedback like it creatively, be open to it with curiosity doesn't mean you don't observe your limits at the same time.

SPEAKER_01 35:47

Right. Totally. Okay. Love that one. I'm already like nervous because this word is so big and I always mess it up. Phenomenological empathy agreement. Yes. Maybe that's why I've been sweating all day. I knew I was gonna have to read that.

SPEAKER_02 36:03

This this one used to be named, I think, just non-judgmental stance.

SPEAKER_01 36:06

I think I've seen it that way. I think I've seen it both, but I think you're right. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 36:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:11

Phenomenological empathy agreement. All things being equal, we agree to search for non-pejorative or phenomenologically empathic interpretations of our patients, our own and each other's behavior. We agree to assume we and our patients are trying our best and want to improve. We agree to strive to see the world through our patients' eyes and through one another's eyes. We agree to practice a non-judgmental stance with our patients and with one another. That was a lot there.

SPEAKER_02 36:44

Yeah, that's a lot there.

SPEAKER_01 36:45

I I can really appreciate this so much from a DBT perspective and also from an act perspective, because within Act, we're always thinking about function, not good or bad, right or wrong behaviors. So this really speaks to me from both these lenses that I work through. And it doesn't mean we don't get annoyed by our patients. We were talking about that earlier, right? We're human too, but also like, can we try to ground ourselves in okay, they're trying their best and this behavior serves them somehow? Yeah. Can we try to maybe figure out and and see it through their eyes why it might be serving them or what what function does that behavior serve? Which is not easy to do. And when we can do it, I I find immense. Uh it pays dividends, I think.

SPEAKER_02 37:30

Yeah, this like essentially non-judgmental stance. I mean, it's this one could be number one in some ways. Like if you've been in a DBT consultation, like this one is like forefront of your mind because every time you anything you say or describe, you want to use like descriptive language, which can be pretty tricky.

SPEAKER_01 37:48

We did the non-judgmental episode. Oh, yeah, and I think Josh was Josh was doing a great job of pointing out when we were using judgment.

SPEAKER_02 37:56

Judgment.

SPEAKER_01 37:56

And even you and I, as we were talking, we were like, oh, wait, like that's a and that's what the consultation sometimes feels like. It can feel a little herky jerky. Totally. At moments, cumbersome to talk. To really keep to that description.

SPEAKER_02 38:09

Yeah, I mean, this would be such an obvious judgment, but it's like, oh, they're they had like a bad weekend. It's like you, you know, you have to really describe like what does that mean about the weekend? What came up, what did you notice, what did they notice?

SPEAKER_01 38:22

Or even when we're like, we had such a great session when they showed up. It's like, what do you mean by great session? Right.

SPEAKER_02 38:28

What happened? What was your experience? Yeah, like getting way more specific. It really raises like the level of respect of every participant in the consultation, every client you have. Like, it is a really I mean, you were saying this, Josh. Like you felt like that episode when we when John and I talked about it, you were like, I feel like it's changed my life to think like that. It's still changed.

SPEAKER_01 38:52

It sticks with you when you try to really be conscious of judgments, yeah, that language, it it's there. Yeah, you're viewing everything, and we just we you we need to use judgments. I think we explored that in certain ways to make decisions very quickly. If you're really those slowing down in the amount we use judgmental language, it's it's everywhere. We use it all the time.

SPEAKER_02 39:17

I know for me, if a client or a family member of a client or something is struggling with substance use, you know, I can very easily get to a place where it's like this is bad, and they have to stop. That is oversimplified and in in its own way, like problematic for me. You know, it's more about like noticing, like, okay, this is something they're doing. What is their experience of it? It's serving some purpose, right? And to just like condemn it, I mean, it it's like any therapist knows it's like that doesn't work for anyone. That doesn't lead anyone to their goals. Right. It's more looking at it like, okay, they're doing this link, let's explore it. Yeah. And notice like what are consequences they're experiencing, or even you are.

SPEAKER_01 40:09

Well, that and that's what's leading to a deeper understanding of if we really want to make change that is maybe more meaningful, longer lasting, not that it's perfect, there needs to be a deeper level of yeah, what's the function of it? It is serving a function, and typically it's to avoid or escape or try to. We're not trying to look at something or experience something, right? Whether that be thoughts or an emotion, or we had a morning rounds a couple weeks ago, and one of the therapists was like, I, you know, I don't, they said they kind of called me out. They were like, I don't know what the function of this behavior is yet, but I'm still working on it and I'm thinking about it. And I was like, Yes, I was like, right? Like even just like turning to this and kind of thinking about, okay, like maybe they're trying the best. There must be a reason they're engaging in it. I'm not exactly sure. And I it's I'm thinking about it, right? Like, how can we get at that? I'm curious about that. It's totally I love to hear that.

SPEAKER_02 41:03

It really can help a lot with like shame in an interesting way. Like, if you feel even as a person, if you're if you're a listener of this podcast and you like feel shame about something, to try to like describe with zero judgments, like what it is you feel shame about, why, what happened, like explore the whole situation, flesh it out with no judgments. It does affect shame directly. Cause a lot of times, like it's like I did this bad thing, or it's like this weird thing, or there's all of this judging where you can notice, like, well, I did something unusual for me, or whatever. It it really can actually change the feeling of it in your body, the experience and a memory. This, I mean, this comes up a ton with reprocessing too, you know, like, oh, it was bad. How do you know it was bad? Can you use some other words that help me understand more what it was? And even doing that, the nervous system starts to realize like, how do I even know it's bad? Do I even know it's bad? You know, when you just like make use of the non-judgmental language.

SPEAKER_01 42:06

In work with my therapist, I mean, having him at times in our therapy be very honest and saying, you know, I don't with what you've just shared, like I don't look at you any differently. Like just being very, you know, and and having worked with him for years, that makes me feel so less shameful when I'm really like sharing something, right? And and that non-judgmental stance, that ability of him to have an understanding. Well, even in this moment, if I don't understand or you don't understand why maybe you did that, I don't, I'm not looking at you any differently. I'm not judging you. Like that, yeah. That's the space, right? Where it's like, well, now I can really feel safe to try to maybe get to a better understanding of that thing.

SPEAKER_02 42:49

Love it. Okay, we have our last one.

SPEAKER_01 42:52

Fallibility agreement. We agree ahead of time that we are each fallible and make mistakes. We agree that we have probably done whatever problematic thing we're being accused of or some part of it. And so we can let go of assuming a defensive stance to prove our virtue or competence. Because we are fallible, it is agreed that we will inevitably violate all of the agreements. And when this is done, we will rely on each other to point out the polarity and move to a synthesis.

SPEAKER_02 43:22

Yeah, this one is tough one. This is a tough one.

SPEAKER_01 43:24

Love it and tough.

SPEAKER_02 43:25

Yeah, this one is all about really radically accepting that we're human, we're imperfect. If someone in a consultation maybe notices something you did and points out how it could be unhelpful.

SPEAKER_01 43:38

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 43:39

When you are already in contact with your fallibility and your humanity, it can be a lot easier to hear that feedback and take the parts of it that are going to be truly useful to you and your client.

SPEAKER_01 43:52

Hard to hear it, though. Oh God, yeah. The older I get, the harder it is. I'm trying as hard as I can to keep up. With just being sensitive to everything that I can, and things change so quickly. And I'm not trying to say, like, I am 44 and I'm gonna fall off a cliff soon. But yeah, whether it comes to pronouns, or whether it comes to race, or whether it comes to religion, or just language that's outdated that we don't use anymore, like it's harder and harder and harder for me. Not that I'm not still trying, but that's where sometimes I can feel embarrassment in this type of setting. Sure. And I need to be able to not get defensive and have that pointed out to me in a way where people should not fragilize me. Um because I need to know that, and that's important because I don't know it all, and it changes so quick. Um, but those are some of the things that when I read this, it's like, I'm sure I'm making mistakes more than I even know about the language I'm using and whether something is even sensitive anymore.

SPEAKER_02 44:57

So much does change and and so much has come to life.

SPEAKER_01 45:00

And I think you, when you're sharing an office with you, I think you did so much in pointing out so many things to me about just being more tapped into language and and what it why things changed, what we use.

SPEAKER_02 45:13

I just think sharing a space with you educated me a lot in those different areas um to make me more like aware of I also like I feel like I bump into like clients and colleagues younger than me, and I have kind of a similar thing where I'm like, well, they know even more, and they like have engaged even more, and it's like also like it's interesting because in this list is also that not fragilizing right, right. Each other in the consultation, but in general, not fragilizing people. There are some levels of languaging that might be sometimes fragilizing, sure, you know, like you could never get someone's pronouns wrong. Maybe a client could actually possibly handle that if you're sincere in recovering and apologizing. It could be a really useful thing. Yeah. And I definitely have gone on the other side and had clients have to kind of tell me, like, you're being a little too fragilizing. Like, kind of like it's not that deep. You need to chill over here. Yeah. And that was kind of hard feedback because I was I could tell I was actually protecting myself from exactly what you're talking about, like ever putting my foot in my mouth. And instead, I needed to have the courage to like, maybe I will, and I can accept them calling me out on it.

SPEAKER_01 46:30

Because I'm fallible. That's actually something that I've noticed change pretty quickly in the last couple of years. If somebody makes a mistake about pronouns, that example, yeah, people have no problem typically now just jumping in and doing it and correcting it. And then, okay, apologize for the mistake and then you know, correct, move on. Whereas I feel like that was almost like who is somebody gonna correct them? Like even like five years ago, it was kind of like this uncomfortable moment of should somebody say something about because that person uses they, them, not right. And so I feel like that's even been a shift where people are, yeah, we don't have to fragilize each other. I think the pronouns is a great example where we are gonna make those mistakes. Totally. We can't keep that all of that information at the forefront all the time. And if we're insincere in our apologies about it, she always talks about the kernel, right?

SPEAKER_02 47:20

Like the kernel of truth. Find that kernel of truth in any feedback you get to help you take it in. You know, there may be pieces of the feedback you don't agree with, but knowing you're both fragile and that there's probably a kernel in here for you can help you like open to it and find something useful in it.

SPEAKER_01 47:38

It's not lieutenant truth, it's kernel truth.

SPEAKER_02 47:40

Okay, those are our DBT agreements. They're they're amazing for a clinical consultation, but there's a lot in there for just like any human interaction, really.

SPEAKER_01 47:50

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 47:51

Okay, moving on to our how wise is

How Wise Is Biking In Chicago

SPEAKER_02 47:54

it.

SPEAKER_01 47:54

Because it's summer, yeah, we're in the thick of it, because we live in a city, a huge one, because we live in a state that's ranked not very well. We're doing how wise is it to bike in the city.

SPEAKER_02 48:08

How wise is it to bike in the city? I mean, I don't think I mean it's not wise for me.

SPEAKER_01 48:14

I'm just gonna put it out there. It's not wise for me.

SPEAKER_02 48:16

Yeah, why is it not wise for you?

SPEAKER_01 48:18

Even though there is a dedicated bike lane on many streets, yeah. I just don't think biking in Chicago, I think there's too much traffic. Yeah, there's too much tracking. I would rather be in a park biking or on the lakefront path biking. I think I would feel more comfortable. Does this make any sense? I think I would feel more comfortable on an electric scooter than on a bike.

SPEAKER_02 48:44

No, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 48:45

Does it?

SPEAKER_02 48:46

Can you ride an electric scooter on the sidewalk?

SPEAKER_01 48:48

No, no. Well, you're not supposed to. I mean, you could. You could literally, but you not allowed. Yeah. I feel like I would have a little bit more control over it for some reason. Anyway, that's a different hot wise. Is it? I I just don't think for me it's it feels scary, it feels intimidating. Totally. What about you?

SPEAKER_02 49:07

Scary, just too scary. It's a shame. Like it really is a shame because I I this came up because Josh and I were like sitting in traffic over the weekend and I saw this couple, you know. Of course, you like see people out in the world and you like make up a narrative for like what their day is or what their lives are.

SPEAKER_01 49:24

They were told me they were on a bicycle built for two or tandem bicycles.

SPEAKER_02 49:27

They weren't, they weren't. They were each on their own bicycle, and they one had like maybe like a brown paper bag under their arm or something. Yeah, maybe I might have tell me more. I might have overly romanticized that. Maybe they literally just had like a backpack, or maybe one at a backpack and one at like a brown paper bag. And and I just said out loud to Josh, I was like, oh, biking to the beach in the summer. And he's like, Are they going to the beach? And I was like, Oh, I don't know. I I kind of just like wrote that in a script. And I was like, How nice. And I think you said, like, I thought you didn't like the idea of biking in the city. And I was like, Oh, I don't. You know, it was like, I was like, Oh, what a shame. Like, because there is something so romantic about like a bike ride in the summer, getting wherever you're going, and this like on a bike. It's like so magical. And we had such a magical bike experience when we two summers ago went to Ireland and we did the e-bike.

SPEAKER_01 50:21

Oh, that's that sounds great.

SPEAKER_02 50:22

It was incredible. It was like all over the island that my family lives on, and it was beautiful and like you know, wind in your hair and the rolling, like just so different. So different. And it was an e-bike too, so it's like adjusted. Yeah, yeah, it was great. And yeah, it's like it would be so nice, especially these like beautiful summer days. Yeah. Man, you want to kind of be outside as much as you can when it's not smoky. You want to be outside whenever you can, but it's like I still feel like it's just too dangerous.

SPEAKER_01 50:55

I love the idea of a bike. Yeah, I love the idea of limiting car use.

SPEAKER_02 51:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:03

Especially when, yeah, like you're saying, the weather's nice. Yeah, it's exercise, and I it's just I'm not in the right environment for it.

SPEAKER_02 51:12

No.

SPEAKER_01 51:12

For me.

SPEAKER_02 51:13

I know it's like you almost have to do it like on a vacation in like the countryside.

SPEAKER_01 51:17

That's where I would feel most comfortable.

SPEAKER_02 51:19

That's really the only place I felt comfortable.

SPEAKER_01 51:21

Or on the beach, like uh again, like the lakeshore path, or you're on the coast somewhere and there's pavement that you it's kind of like there's just not a lot around. I don't trust myself with it.

SPEAKER_02 51:33

And all the friends I have, like I remember I had a bunch of friends in college who like regularly biked. I think every one of them to a person like knocked their fucking teeth out, you know, or like was in an ambulance.

SPEAKER_01 51:44

Well, you so you were in St. Louis, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:47

So it's still city, yeah, much smaller city, but still city.

SPEAKER_01 51:51

It's still city. It's not like you went to school somewhere out in nowhere. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:57

Yeah. It's right, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 51:59

Because I'd be way more comfortable biking in the town where I went to school, which was small and you know, like not a lot of cars. Not a lot of cars.

SPEAKER_02 52:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:08

I would totally feel more comfortable doing that. I just think it's the Chicago aspect of it. Totally.

SPEAKER_02 52:12

I mean, I can't believe people bike in like New York City.

SPEAKER_01 52:15

Sometimes I cringe oh, yeah. Sometimes I cringe when I just see bikers and what they're doing because I'm like, that's gonna be an accident. I mean, they're weaving in and out, they're not stopping at stop signs.

SPEAKER_02 52:26

No, you know, it's wild.

SPEAKER_01 52:28

It's wild. And then some of them are going down the bike lane the wrong way on a one-way street.

SPEAKER_02 52:34

Yeah, it's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 52:35

Yikes.

SPEAKER_02 52:36

Well, we made the mistake of thinking people were doing that on our street, and then I realized we have a one-way street, but the bikers can go either way.

SPEAKER_01 52:42

Well, either way, it's going against oncoming traffic. And that's not smart. It's scary.

SPEAKER_02 52:47

I think it's dumb that they have it, that they can go either way. Right. Yeah. What do you think about it?

SPEAKER_01 52:52

But what about biking at night? No, I'm kidding. Even worse.

SPEAKER_00 52:55

Even worse. I'm scared. Yeah. Here's the real question, though. Yes, tell me the real. How would you feel, John? Because you have kids now. How would you feel about them biking in the city?

unknown 53:05

Bad, right?

SPEAKER_01 53:06

Well, tease a judgment. Do I have to go with them? Or are you like are you saying like they're biking somewhere? Like they're old enough where there's like saying, Hey, I want to go bike somewhere, and I'm just allowing them to do that, or are we all biking together?

SPEAKER_00 53:19

They're old enough that they want to go somewhere and they're saying, Dad, can I bike to Millennium Park?

SPEAKER_01 53:24

Oh my god. That's tough. I don't think I would be thrilled about. I mean, of course, my first instinct would be no.

SPEAKER_00 53:32

And then you're a tyrant.

SPEAKER_01 53:33

I know, I feel that too. I think I would want them to have the opportunity to bike.

SPEAKER_00 53:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:38

I mean, that would be such a far leap to think about Millennium Park. I'm trying to think of age appropriate right now. If they wanted to bike to one of their friends' houses, that's maybe three blocks. Yeah, I was gonna say like five blocks away. Like maybe we would start there, and I think I would be like five blocks, turns into ten blocks.

SPEAKER_02 53:54

Well, I know Millennium Park.

SPEAKER_01 53:56

I want to say no, but that's not, I don't think that's wise. I think they should have the opportunity maybe to experience that. Yeah. Um, I mean, listen, we have we have neighbors that live across the street, uh, newsflash, and uh and their dad is huge into biking. Sammy, the boy, Samir, he's also huge into biking, but they bike as a family, and um Tejas, the dad, has been putting them in the vests, helmets, all the gear. They bike to the lake, they'll like he will take them in the city, and he's kind of brought them up that way, right? And he's very cautious about it, right? They know what they're doing, and yeah, um, so I feel like if my boys were doing something and they were starting out with somebody that was so knowledgeable, I would definitely feel comfortable with it. Yeah. What are you exposed to? What are you brought up around, right? If that's the culture, maybe they know the safety, they know they've done it. Yeah. I mean, my kids probably would have some fear about it, but that's the thing about kids. They don't know what they don't know.

SPEAKER_02 55:00

I almost think you just like have a bike personality, or you don't. You know, like I feel like my friends in college that had bikes, they were just like pretty carefree people. They weren't grounded in reality. They're not grounded. No, I think they were just very like, yeah, it was like honestly, like so enviable in a way, where it's just like, yeah, you know, I just like biked over there and like whatever, like kind of effortlessly cool and like not scared of life. And I'm like, oh wow, I am a scaredy cat. Yeah. And and and I'm realizing just uh the endless challenges as a parent where you're like, this is an enriching experience for them.

SPEAKER_01 55:35

There's risk there, but it's is my fear overriding. Can we still right? Can we still be in a wise place with safety and things like that and allow them to have this experience that maybe just because I don't want it doesn't mean they shouldn't have it, you know? And that's the hard thing with anything with parenting is a lot of things that maybe are scary to us as parents. Yeah, we probably did shit that was scary to our parents, and we we did it, you know.

SPEAKER_02 56:02

See, like I I think I've been as scaredy forever, and that's my problem. Like my brothers did very daredevil things, both of them. Okay. Daredevil, daredevil, and I was like sitting on the floor in the attic painting with my Barbie. It's like I wasn't taking a lot of risks. And I wish I was, and like I think I take a lot more risks now. Sure. But I think I'm gonna say biking in the city, not wise.

SPEAKER_01 56:26

I'm gonna say if you're gonna do it, please just be careful. Yeah, try to follow the rules. Yeah, that's the thing. Like, if you're gonna do it, I have nothing against people biking. I love it, it's great, but you still gotta be really careful and drivers too. Yeah, I mean, we're in a condensed city, yeah. Like, be cautious about the bike lanes and look in your blind spot and you know, all those things before you open your doors, yeah, when you're parking on the street. Like, yeah, you just gotta be aware that's a responsibility you have of living in a city where people choose to to bike. You know, biking in New York, are you kidding me? I've never even been to New York and I wouldn't even fathom doing that.

SPEAKER_02 57:04

That's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 57:04

That's not that's probably why I've avoided going to New York. Bikers.

SPEAKER_02 57:09

Totally. And there's bike messengers everywhere. It's crazy. Crazy.

SPEAKER_01 57:13

No, I can't.

SPEAKER_02 57:14

We can't. So don't definitely don't bike in New York.

SPEAKER_01 57:17

But like really be careful if you really be careful or go to the park, go to country, go to a trail.

SPEAKER_02 57:24

Do it on your travels.

SPEAKER_01 57:25

Do it on your travels. Totally. Do it in a city that's maybe a little.

SPEAKER_02 57:29

What would we be committed to? Good. No. What did you commit to? On our next vacation, we want to do the e-bikes again. Do it.

SPEAKER_00 57:36

I'm gonna cast a vote and say it's wise, and I think we're three prudes. It is wise.

SPEAKER_02 57:42

You mean you literally want to cast a vote to the audience?

SPEAKER_00 57:44

I'm casting a vote as our the us three. As our committee of three.

SPEAKER_01 57:48

Our committee of three, it is wise to bike in the city of Chicago.

SPEAKER_00 57:52

That's not what we're saying. I'm saying it's wise. You're dissenting.

SPEAKER_01 57:55

So you're yeah, you're Oh, I'm disagreeing.

SPEAKER_00 57:57

Yeah, you're disagreeing with that. And I'm gonna continue to not bike myself.

SPEAKER_02 58:00

We're letting our fear kind of make the decision.

SPEAKER_01 58:02

That's the thing. It can be a wise decision. Yeah. It's just not wise for us.

SPEAKER_02 58:06

But sometimes you feel fear and there's not enough danger to really justify it. And sometimes they're rough.

SPEAKER_01 58:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:12

Assess that for yourself based on your location.

SPEAKER_01 58:15

Assess it for yourself. I think if I had to bike, I would stick to side streets. That's the best I could do. Yeah. Wear a helmet. Totally. And a full bodysuit. Yes. That's bad. Oh man.

SPEAKER_02 58:26

Okay, that's our episode. Great to be back.

SPEAKER_01 58:29

Great to be back in the studio.

Gray Hair Jokes And Listener Questions

SPEAKER_02 58:31

Great to be back in the studio. Happy early birthday. Oh, well, thank you. I appreciate that. Tomorrow's gonna be special.

SPEAKER_01 58:38

44 West is a little bit. Oh my god, I'm sure I'm going to. I'm not even gonna be able to get out of bed.

SPEAKER_02 58:46

Vagina.

SPEAKER_01 58:47

I'm gonna need a bunch of baby aspirin. Ben gay. Yeah. Yeah, I'm gonna need all the old things. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:56

Vix Vaporub.

SPEAKER_01 58:58

I love VIX Vapor Rub. Yeah. Smells great.

SPEAKER_02 59:00

I actually did pull a gray hair out of my head today. Which I was like, why am I even doing this? I have so many gray hairs.

SPEAKER_01 59:05

Like, this is no longer what we do. Didn't you always hear that if you pull them out, you more?

SPEAKER_02 59:10

Two more come to the funeral.

SPEAKER_01 59:11

Yeah, right. Yeah. When we were younger, fun fact, Sarah, if we were like on the couch or if we were like laying in bed together, sometimes she would like pull out a like a loose gray hair. I have so many now. I mean, my beard alone is just like almost white, but it's just funny to even think back to that stage of our relationship where it was like, oh, you can pinpoint one. Right. Because it was so prominent among dark hairs, and now it's you can't really find the dark hairs anymore. Right.

SPEAKER_02 59:39

Yeah, Josh and I both have little like sections of gray hair, but it's not all the way diffuse yet.

SPEAKER_01 59:45

Yeah, my chin was like very white first, but now it's like just kind of but it's nice, it's like salt and pepper.

SPEAKER_02 59:51

It's just for men. You know if people do that, like that have more gray, they kind of like half dye it. Uh isn't that what just for men is?

SPEAKER_01 59:57

I thought it was just dyeing it dark.

SPEAKER_02 59:59

No, I think it's literally salt and pepper.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:01

Oh, I thought it was if you're going gray, I would find a tone that would match this to make it all uniform black or brown. I thought that's what just for men was. But you can get pepper salt and pepper with it.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:12

I think just for men.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:14

To make you look older?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:15

No, there there is something. Is it just for what is just for men? Okay, that's it.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:19

Wild.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:19

No, no, no. It's not to make you look older. It's if you have really, really, really gray hair. You just bring down some of it.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:25

You bring down some of it. It's not such a stark difference. That's for the lieutenants out there, not the colonels.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:32

Touch of gray. That's what it is. Just for men, touch of gray. My god, like the gray for that song. A low commitment dye that leaves some gray behind for a salt and pepper look. Ooh. Oh. Sassy. Oh, we love that. And a lot of men will get to the salt and pepper look at some point. But I suppose it's like five.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:51

Or maybe you go salt very early.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:54

Yeah, you're all salt at 21.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:57

Go ahead and read for double. Which maybe Steve Martin was. I feel like that guy was always salt.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:03

Yeah, totally. Maybe he needed technical. My dad went gray. I said at like 18. So full gray? It couldn't have been. But I think it was like real starting to turn. Yeah. And but he's never dried it, and he just goes with it.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:17

Which I can do. Just go with it. I don't mind that the the grays. That doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:21

No. I mean, it's like at this point, all of us just want hair.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:24

That's a struggle for me, but I yeah, you just say my hair's thinning. It's like the hair. Yeah. I don't care how it looks. I don't care what color it is. Touch of purple. Touch of gray. I love it. Touch of gray. Well, you can find me at butzbutz.jonathan at gmail.com. Email me questions. If you're a biker out there, let us know your thoughts on biking in Chicago. What are we missing out on? Why is it safer than we think? And why we should do it more. Uh, what about you?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:51

If you want to reach me, you can find me at kkpsychsotherapy.com. If you want to work with me or suggests for the pod, I'm on the pod, anything like that, you can find me there.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:02

My name is JoshBayerfilms.com. That's Bayer as in the aspirin, B-A-Y-E-R. And if you're loving our short form content, seeing it on YouTube, seeing that on it on Instagram, uh maybe you want something edited for yourself. Just tell me any one-minute video you want, or give us an idea for a one-minute video you want. Yeah. Uh we'll make it happen. We'll make your dreams come true. Yeah. Rate and review the pod, don't forget.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:29

Yes, we'd love it if you rate and review the pod on Apple Podcasts and helps people discover it.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:36

And that's my spam for the month. Uh god. Listen to Charlie X and the Strokes. They don't need shout-outs. They're too big to fail. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:43

Yeah, we like both those albums.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:45

I like it.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:45

Josh likes the Charlie XX a little bit more than me. I like it and I love it. Have you heard it?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:49

Not yet. I was too busy listening to this Loral Eye and other things in Portland.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:55

Yeah. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:56

I didn't even know the name to. Check out the new Strokes album. Everyone hates the auto tube.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:00

He really goes nuts with the auto tube.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:02

A little too much, huh?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:03

He's almost some some songs I said to Josh are like, he's like in his room, just like playing around. Like it has that feel. And then other ones are great. He has a beautiful voice, so it's a little like, you don't have to do this.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:14

It's a commentary on AI, artificial intelligence.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:17

Yeah, maybe it is. Maybe it is.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:19

I like it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:20

Thank you, Blanket Force.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:22

Thank you, Blanket Forwards.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:23

Thank you, Blanket Force.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:24

And we'll catch you next week.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:26

Catch you next week. I'm gonna have some birthday cake. Bye.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:30

The Wisemind Happy Hour podcast is for entertainment purposes only, not to be treated as medical advice. If you are struggling with your mental health, please seek medical attention or counseling.