THE PLIGHT OF THE ELDEST DAUGHTER

Are you an ELDEST DAUGHTER? Have you ever felt like the world rests on your shoulders? Do you ever envy your middle and younger siblings (or...gasp...your BROTHERS?) Then this episode's for you. (And if you're a curious middle or inquisitive baby, please feel free to explore as well.) We all have something to learn here.

💿 music by blanket forts 💿

Transcript

Spindrift Berry Bellini Taste Test

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Welcome to the Wise Mind Happy Hour. I'm John.

SPEAKER_02 0:07

I'm Kelly.

SPEAKER_01 0:08

And we're joined as always by Josh. Haya. There he is. Yes, we're back for the Wise Mind Happy Hour. Um, we wanted to do something different right off the bat. As you know, we're huge into Spindrift on the show.

SPEAKER_02 0:22

We're addicted, one might say.

SPEAKER_01 0:24

And I've been raiding their fridge ever since this podcast started with any spindrift they have, but there's a new flavor in town. Got here, Josh told me. We're looking at spindrift berry bellino.

SPEAKER_02 0:37

But they do berry bellino. As in no alcohol.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

No, non-alcoholic. It says it's a peach and a strawberry. So we're actually going to crack these open.

SPEAKER_02 0:47

Yeah, I already didn't try mine open.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

Are you ready, Josh? Here we go. One, two, three.

unknown 0:54

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 0:57

It's pretty tasty.

SPEAKER_02 0:59

Yeah, I think so too.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

Slimy yet satisfying. It says here peach strawberry. I actually think the strawberry is a little bit more forward. Did you do you all pick that up or no? 50-50.

SPEAKER_02 1:09

You know why that is?

SPEAKER_01 1:10

50 strawberries, 50 peaches.

SPEAKER_02 1:12

Strawberry puree and strawberry extract. And there's only peach puree.

SPEAKER_01 1:16

Okay. Well, I'm a fan of this flavor. I like it. It's really good. I like a strawberry anything, usually. And the fact that the peach, I was a little thrown off. You all have pineapple in your fridge, which to me is like the gold standard of spindriffs. Wow, I don't agree. But for me, that's the gold standard. It's so refreshing. And when I see a peach something, a little skeptical because I don't like peaches that much.

SPEAKER_02 1:41

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_01 1:42

Well, I'm allergic to nectarines, so I feel like I've stayed away from stone fruit a little.

SPEAKER_02 1:46

Wait, if you eat a nectarine, does your throat close up?

SPEAKER_01 1:48

It doesn't close up, it's not that severe. Okay. I get hives like on my neck. Um, I mean, it only happened one time, and so I haven't tried it again. So maybe I wouldn't. I mean, that's enough. A more severe reaction. Yeah. So I kind of stay away from that. I stay away from peach, but I also don't necessarily like peach tasting things in like drink form. But I think this is really good. Wait, what is your gold standard of spinders?

SPEAKER_02 2:15

I I mean cherry. I think cherry is so good, but this is close to cherry for me.

SPEAKER_01 2:21

I like this one better than cherry.

SPEAKER_02 2:23

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 2:24

Cherry's up there though. Cherry's up there. It's definitely top five. And the grape is surprisingly refreshing.

SPEAKER_02 2:29

It's like, to me, it's like cherry grape. Well, maybe it's cherry this grape, blood orange, or pineapple.

SPEAKER_01 2:38

Then the other one's good. Yeah, the blood orange is pretty good. What do you think is the worst tasting synthetic flavor, like in candy form? I think grape is pretty bad. Yeah. Which is why when you all had it, I was like, I don't know about the grape spindrift, but it's actually tasty. Banana's pretty bad.

SPEAKER_02 2:54

Fake banana?

SPEAKER_01 2:55

Right, like a synthetic banana. Sometimes is that even what a banana tastes like?

SPEAKER_02 3:00

Bad. It's like a if you put a banana with like a lot of sugar on it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:04

I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 3:05

Honestly, like maybe I like fake banana. There's definitely something fake I don't like. Maybe I don't like fake, fake peach.

SPEAKER_00 3:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:14

What do you think, Josh?

SPEAKER_00 3:15

Like those peach rings?

SPEAKER_02 3:16

I don't think I've ever had the peach rings.

SPEAKER_00 3:18

I've seen them, but little trollies.

SPEAKER_02 3:20

So good.

SPEAKER_00 3:21

I like them.

SPEAKER_01 3:21

Hot take over there. Grape can be rough. Sometimes you know, the spindrift isn't, I'm not accusing them of synthetic flavors. But I think that's what informs my aversion to certain fruit stuff. Yeah. Because if you have like a candy that's just kind of god-awful, it's like disgusting.

SPEAKER_02 3:39

Yeah, sometimes they they just like take the wrong parts of it that you're tasting.

SPEAKER_01 3:44

Yeah. So you have to say this flavor as berry bellino.

SPEAKER_02 3:49

I mean, maybe you can say berry bellino.

SPEAKER_01 3:52

Because this is modeled after what drink?

SPEAKER_02 3:54

A bellini.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

Right. So you don't say a bellini.

SPEAKER_02 3:57

Bellini. Say it more like that. A bellini.

SPEAKER_01 4:03

Now your Italian heritage is coming out, Kelly, on the pod. It's a sliver, but it's there. I can tell.

SPEAKER_02 4:09

Well, actually, it's funny that you say that.

Italy Honeymoon Plans And Travel Costs

SPEAKER_02 4:11

We just booked our trip to Italy for our honeymoon.

SPEAKER_01 4:14

That's incredible.

SPEAKER_02 4:15

Our late honeymoon. So I've been watching a bunch of YouTube where people go to different places in Italy. When is the trip? October. Early October. Oh, that'll be great. That's unnecessary for me to do.

SPEAKER_01 4:27

Can you give us the flight number two? Um, that's gonna be great. Hopefully, it's not as touristy, it's not as hot.

SPEAKER_02 4:33

Yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_01 4:34

Wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 4:35

Yeah, we're excited.

SPEAKER_01 4:37

Well, that's news as we're catching up here. Uh as we're moving out of the sp as we're drifting away from the berry baleen.

SPEAKER_02 4:43

Yeah, as we move away. Yeah. So we maybe, yeah, I probably won't be drinking then, which is a little bit of a bummer to go to Italy and not be drinking. But well, the food's where it's at. The food's where it's at. We'll do a bunch of activities. Ugh. It's gonna be great. Bikes. I think we're gonna take bikes. I looked into e-bike tours.

SPEAKER_01 5:02

We're facing fears. We're doing fears in a context that suits us.

SPEAKER_02 5:06

Yeah. Although it's like I have to be careful. I don't want to like bike ride around Rome. Like, I don't think that's what I'm thinking. More like countryside. I love it. And we're gonna take a night train one of the nights.

SPEAKER_01 5:18

That sounds great.

SPEAKER_02 5:19

Yeah. They kind of recommend that because they're like, it's actually a pretty inexpensive way to get between two places because you save a night of stay.

SPEAKER_01 5:27

Yeah, makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 5:28

And it's just a train, so you don't have to like the flight. I mean, flights right now, anywhere are crazy.

SPEAKER_01 5:32

Crazy. Hotels are crazy. Hotels are crazy. I that's one thing Sarah can't do when we travel. She's like, Can you just like book the hotel? Yeah. It makes her too much real upset. Yeah. It's nice to stay in a nice hotel.

SPEAKER_02 5:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:48

But if you're going on a trip and you're not going to be there that much, it's like, what am I paying for?

SPEAKER_02 5:52

And it's hard because you're like, I want to come home in this strange city I'm in. I want to come home to feel really comfortable.

SPEAKER_01 5:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 5:59

Comfortable, feel safe. Yeah. To feel like comfortable and safe in a lot of places. They're like $800 a price. I know it's wild.

SPEAKER_01 6:06

It's really, really wild.

SPEAKER_02 6:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:08

Italy on the horizon.

SPEAKER_02 6:10

Yeah. And we went back and forth about where to go so much. Josh was thinking he wanted something like kind of extended summer, like warm weather. So for we'll do Sicily for the second hose. Ooh, okay. Which will be so warm there. And then Rome will be a little more fall weather. I love fall. And it's hard to book a trip when you get a $448 energy bill in the same day. That's pricey. Which we have to figure out what's going on with that bill. I can't be I can't be safe at the end. Welcome to the new place. Yeah, there's just simply no way that's accurate. So we're gonna figure that out. Yeah, where are you guys going next? Do you know?

SPEAKER_01 6:53

Are you uh where are we going next?

Back To School Dread And TV Myths

SPEAKER_02 6:55

School's starting soon.

SPEAKER_01 6:56

Yeah, school is starting in a couple weeks.

SPEAKER_02 6:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:59

Sixth grader and third grader. Wow. Crazy.

SPEAKER_02 7:02

They have a couple more weeks of summer. Couple, yeah. What what are they gonna do?

SPEAKER_01 7:07

I mean, not much. Yeah. They're like, oh god, school's coming.

SPEAKER_02 7:11

It's tough. Like, uh it's did you feel excited, Josh, when you would shop for school stuff?

SPEAKER_00 7:16

It's a tough feeling. I would get a little excited. It was kind of a clean feeling starting fresh.

SPEAKER_02 7:22

I could see you feeling that.

SPEAKER_00 7:23

But I but I would get so stressed out when, for instance, in July you'd start seeing the back to school aisles in your local target.

SPEAKER_01 7:31

That's a shocker.

SPEAKER_02 7:32

I mean, you kind of want to be like, shut up.

SPEAKER_01 7:34

Or the or the commercials that are happening in July.

SPEAKER_02 7:38

In July.

SPEAKER_01 7:38

It's like we literally just touched down here.

SPEAKER_02 7:42

I I mean, I hated shopping for school. I I felt, I think I felt like an enormous level of like depression about it. Like I hated it.

SPEAKER_01 7:52

Never really wanted to go back.

SPEAKER_02 7:54

Like, I loved going to social work school. I love going to college. I loved, you know, I treasure those times like mentally when I mentalize them. Sure. But like the actual like pack your shit and get to class, it's like, what?

SPEAKER_01 8:10

It it seems to me like such a huge undertaking. I had to do an entire year of new stuff. I was I just got into the groove last year. Yeah. Sometimes I never got into the groove, but yeah. I mean, I used to always get in my mind, like every year felt like this is the year I'm not gonna be able to keep up. Oh, okay. Like there was always this like hum of that. And so that was definitely something that made me not want to go back after a summer.

SPEAKER_02 8:36

Yeah, I was more like suffering about just like the work itself. Like, I just don't want to do it.

SPEAKER_01 8:41

You wanted school to be like what's shown on TV, just hang out.

SPEAKER_02 8:45

Yeah, school on TV. I used to watch Lizzie McGuire, the show.

SPEAKER_01 8:50

I didn't watch it, but I know who Lizzie McGuire is.

SPEAKER_02 8:51

Okay, so Hillary Duff. Their depiction of school or like any is insane. School is like a hallway of lockers. You chat with your friends, like bells ring, drama happens, like you see the boy you like, you eat lunch, and then you go home. Then you go home. It's like I I wanted to start in a show about school rather than go to school.

SPEAKER_01 9:11

Or even any of the ridiculous, like save by the bells or all that stuff.

SPEAKER_02 9:15

Yeah. Nobody's in class ever. Hanging out. Yeah. Was there any show where they're really like showing a lot of oh, you know what? Where they show a good amount of school? Tell me. Gilmore girls. Gilmore girls. Because like her teacher is like a signing thing. Rory. Rory, and she's like talking about school projects and what she's writing for the paper.

SPEAKER_01 9:33

Yale?

SPEAKER_02 9:34

She well, for high school, she goes to a place called Chilton. Right. Which I guess is in real life, like a mix of these two prep schools called Chote and one called Milton. Okay in real life. Chilton. So they call it Chilton. Her whole life she dreams about going to Harvard, but she winds up choosing Yale. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:50

So it's a rough life. Poor Rory. Poor Rory.

SPEAKER_02 9:54

Yeah, but they do show more school stuff, like more actual learning and like academic stuff in it. A little bit. More than like the OC. Well, right. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 10:05

Where they're literally just where everybody, all those shows that have the campus that everybody's outside all the time. Yes. Yeah, it's like a beach almost. Never had a school like that once. Right. Never.

SPEAKER_02 10:14

I think schools in California might be like Yeah, that's cool.

SPEAKER_01 10:17

Great for them.

SPEAKER_02 10:17

So cool. Nowhere in Wisconsin. But what does happen on a rainy day? You're just getting wet between all your classes? It's kind of crazy.

SPEAKER_01 10:25

I don't, I never thought about it that way. Maybe that ponchos, raincoats.

SPEAKER_02 10:29

That's maybe why a lot of them have like a umbrella. Yeah. Okay. Well,

Eldest Daughter Syndrome Explained

SPEAKER_02 10:34

maybe this is the perfect time to get into our topic.

SPEAKER_01 10:37

Moving into our topic.

SPEAKER_02 10:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 10:39

So you should probably present this. Now we talked about this on a different not for like we mentioned it.

SPEAKER_02 10:45

Yeah, this concept of, and this is a big kind of trending topic on the internet, but this kind of like eldest daughter syndrome, basically, or eldest daughter experience. And basically, I think we today can talk a little bit about eldest child, which is different than eldest daughter. And I do want to talk about the distinctions and the gender piece. But a lot of the pressure on an eldest child can be to be like the model for the other siblings, to be like the most kind of virtuous and high achieving and like pave the way. Which is like an unfair pressure if you think about like each kid needing the opportunity to succeed and fail and find themselves. And when we add in the gender piece, you know, like the pressures on women a lot of times, girls, young girls and families, and in general, is to kind of be small, disappear, not ask for a lot, really self-sacrifice. So not only is there this pressure to like do well, be strong, lead the way, be perfect, but also don't take a lot of glory for that. Definitely be smaller than if there's men in the family, and just sacrifice yourself, fall on the sword a little bit. This is trending on the internet, and a lot, and the reason I think is a lot of women are that are eldest daughters are resonating with this like pressure. So, yeah, what do you think of that?

SPEAKER_01 12:18

I mean, certainly we know there's parentified children in the world. And I think a lot of children probably in some ways, because parents are imperfect, yeah. I think a lot of children take on things that they probably feel they have to do or they need to do in order to make whatever their family system is like functioning.

SPEAKER_02 12:39

Yeah, equilibrium.

SPEAKER_01 12:40

Just the the toll because of the consistency of it throughout not just childhood, but how it carries into adulthood, just how draining it can be. Yeah. You're constantly the one who has to remember the birthdays and the gift, and you're the one who's got to schedule things, and you're the one who's got to take care of, you know, what's gonna mom and dad's will gonna look like once you are entering adulthood, right? And like you're there's there's this expectation that the eldest daughter is the one who's gonna take care of all of that, and do it with a smile on their face and be okay with it and and not look ruffled by it and often not be praised or affirmed for it.

SPEAKER_02 13:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:16

So this is not a formal diagnosis, and people are seeing it a lot on TikTok. People are also like resonating with it a lot on TikTok. So it doesn't mean that because it's not a formal diagnosis, it's not a thing people experience, you know. So people are probably resonating with it because it's striking a chord as these are some of my experiences. Maybe I didn't have a name for it. Right. Um, and at least this puts some language to what that experience is like.

SPEAKER_02 13:40

And you know, I feel like I've seen this in many kinds of families, but I've seen it a lot in families with a lot of parental conflict or divorce. I think this eldest child can like almost not just be parentified, but be like turned into a spouse a little bit. Sure. And everyone in a family system is going to kind of move and and sort of get positioned in a way where they can make the system function. And sometimes that functioning really gets in the way of the individuals thriving. Right. At that moment, to some extent, but then uh certainly when they get older and actually want to individuate from the family, they can have like established a relationship with themselves that's like, I just caretake everyone else and I don't take up space. And they almost, I find, sometimes don't know how to be like another another like internet term, like main character. Even though they're doing so much work in the family, they don't get to feel ever like the main character. Right. Especially, I would say, daughters. I think when I've seen a lot of eldest sons in this role, I do see them get a little more glory for it. Sure. Which can also be a pressure in itself. Sure. But I see them being more affirmed and celebrated in the role. And I see a lot of eldest daughters getting pretty ignored, asked to do a ton, or not even asked. It's kind of the molding of the system, the expectation, and then ignored. And my heart goes out to any family system that's kind of shaped into this. When you have someone like in group or in any clinical setting that's kind of got this experience, what do you feel like you want to like communicate to them?

How Caretaking Shows Up In Therapy

SPEAKER_01 15:29

One thing that comes to mind is is the caretaking, the perfectionism, the some of the traits, are they showing up in real time and in the space?

SPEAKER_02 15:37

So in the actual group space.

SPEAKER_01 15:38

In the actual group space. So are you noticing the person being overly conscious of how others are presenting in the space, wanting to like care for them and tolerate distress for them? Yes. Is the perfectionism coming out in like I have to do therapy right, or I have to take all the right notes? Or and that's also a way of not maybe sitting in distress, or yeah. So I think it's noticing some of those traits, and if they're coming up, not just noticing or reflecting those back to them, but also okay, if that's something we're noticing and we want to decrease that, then yeah, what does it look like for you to not be perfect in this space? Yeah. Right. Or to share something without maybe leaning too heavily into I have to either share it in a certain way because what if it offends other people? Or, you know, that people pleasing might start to come out in terms of like their shares. So I think just how could they show up into the space, notice when they have those urges to want to go to that whatever it is, caretakey eldest daughter-y type stuff? And then how could they lean in in a more vulnerable way without apologies, without feeling like they have to care for everybody in the room? Yeah, including the therapist.

SPEAKER_02 16:46

Because I do bet we keep talking about how this is like an internet thing. I'm sure there are some people like over-identifying with this role. Yeah. And it's sort of like, is it showing up in your daily life? Not to not to like invalidate, but noticing like even it can be liberating for them where it's like you were positioned here and you have actually found a lot of ways out of it. Are they trying to kind of control everyone else's experience? Please be perfect. And I have definitely noticed that in the relationship at times. Sometimes if someone like gets emotional cries in therapy and then kind of wants to take care of me in the face of their crying, and it's also can be a tricky thing to bring up. I never want to shame someone for being in that type of role. No, yeah, you want to more like notice it and help them start to be aware. And I'll often say this isn't the kind of relationship where you do not have to take care of me.

SPEAKER_01 17:47

Right.

SPEAKER_02 17:47

In this space, it really does get to be about you completely and what you want and feel.

SPEAKER_01 17:53

Yeah. And I've noticed sometimes people will almost every other sentence kind of starts the stem as, well, as a caretaker, or I've been taught to be a caretaker, or I always care about everyone else. And so even reflecting and noticing that back to them and maybe even like explore the conversation, it sounds like you take pride in that and you should, right? Like it sounds like you're you are in tune with caring for others. Yeah. We know that it's a strength. And how do we hold that with your other strengths of showing up and caring for yourself? Because maybe the person hasn't been able to have the space. Like you said, they have to do all these things but not be praised or virtuous about it. And so this might be the opportunity for them to get that praise. And it's so it's like, I see you. Yeah. This is a strength. You can care for people. You've been caring for people for years, right? So really recognizing it and also how do we lower that a little bit? Yeah. Right. Because maybe you haven't been seen outside of here. And that's really important to you to finally get some recognition for all of the things that you've done. And that's fair. Yeah. You have done a lot. And it has served you, it served your family system. And so really ramping up the validation before we're kind of like, and we want to try to limit that. Yeah. And this could be the starting place where we do it.

Boundaries That Don’t Betray Your Values

SPEAKER_01 19:04

Yeah. You know, the article I was reading was, well, what is the answer to all of this? And it was kind of tongue-in-cheek, but I liked it. It was like, well, set boundaries. And I it was like, I know the people reading this hate that answer. And that doesn't mean it's not true. Right. Oh, totally. And it's not easy.

SPEAKER_02 19:18

And this does come up a lot with people with like an eldest sibling experience, at least in my practice. A part of them will maybe wants to change some of it, but also really feels like confused because some of their values do align with caring for others like service. Yeah. And being accountable and responsible. 100%. So it's like a tricky clarifying of like when is it value aligned? Yes. And when might it be a coping mechanism. And there could be a more effective one. Yes. A lot of times I feel like something I have to do, especially on the boundaries thing, is kind of explore with them what boundaries have already been like, you know, in their life. Right. Like if you even just asking questions about like when you were young, if you said where you wanted to take the family to lunch, you know, when you were seven years old, like I want to have lunch at McDonald's or whatever. What would happen?

SPEAKER_01 20:24

You know, what was the response?

SPEAKER_02 20:25

What was the response?

SPEAKER_01 20:27

How was that received?

SPEAKER_02 20:28

I'll even kind of practice with them, right? Like, oh, this friend wants you to do this thing. Like, let's just imagine you say, like, oh, I'm sorry, I I'm not able to. And notice even like what do they feel in their body? Because this can be like somaticized too, like this position of like, I have to be there for everyone else all the time. You know, make sure everyone else is good before I even think about myself. And if if that's your tip, you're never gonna think about yourself because no one's ever okay, really.

SPEAKER_01 20:56

Yeah, in perfect control. Even when you question people like that, which seems like a pretty straightforward question, sometimes the response is, I didn't even know what boundaries were. I I don't that's such a foreign concept to people.

SPEAKER_02 21:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:09

So even like it takes them a moment to go back and think about that. Yeah, because one, the word was never used in their home. Right. Like they didn't really use that word. And also a lot of times the boundaries were so, whether they be enmeshed or rigid at times or some odd mixture of not odd, but just not functional.

SPEAKER_02 21:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:28

That it's like, I don't even know. Like that's like overwhelming for people to even think about. Right. It's interesting to question people to think about why they are in therapy.

SPEAKER_03 21:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:37

Especially from the caretaker lens. Like, are you here for you or are you here for, I mean, I wouldn't phrase it like this. Are you here because you think you're going to be a better functioner in that system of what you're already doing? Right. You're almost going to be a more resilient eldest daughter. Is that what we're going for? Or are you going to be a more resilient person who's able to, like you're saying, notice the moments when to say no, when to limit, when to, you know, those things. of things.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

Getting really clear on like the end of this, what do you really want? You know, it's like you take someone who had like an alcoholic parent and they were, you know, verbally physically abusive. An adult who is like grounded enough and aware enough to notice like that was just like abuse that I didn't deserve that. They may intellectually know that and they're like, I, you know, I'm having all these mental health effects, you know, in my adult life after that. A lot of them are really aware of like I want boundaries with the family. I want to feel my own self-worth. And those are very like clear goals that make sense. The eldest daughter thing is tricky because it's sort of like you're in this like Mother Teresa type role. And that and playing that role has kept your family intact probably to an extent.

SPEAKER_01 22:49

So it's sort of like Yeah or at least more connected in some way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:52

So often I I feel like I have to ask about their goals. And sometimes the goals will kind of be like I can't, you know, I can't sleep. I'm so anxious. So I want to sleep. You know it can be concrete like that. And then over time or or even not over that much time, we'll talk a lot about like what could be some of the factors in this. There could be some immediate things but they could be some of these long-term family dynamics where you have internalized this belief that you need to make sure everyone else is okay. And if you fall asleep at night you're not vigilant and you're not aware and there's a part of you that doesn't find that safe. I I think therapy with in this case can be a long road like a lot of things. But for sure or something I find a lot with them is like their personal life isn't what they want it to be. Their friendships, their romantic relationships especially they're not as fulfilling more like you said, draining their work relationships, their role at work. They often play this role at work.

SPEAKER_01 23:58

And there's going to be fallout. I mean that's the thing right that's why this is probably a longer if this is maybe the primary or one of the things you're focusing on. I mean there's a lot of different parts of it but also people are used to you being you. Yeah. And so when you start to make changes that's going to disrupt whatever system you're in.

SPEAKER_02 24:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:17

And so there there might be conflict there might be fallout there might be people being like why aren't you doing this anymore? Or maybe not that directly but that's a lot to consider too when we're you know exploring is this the healthiest thing for people because if they're really thinking about making a big change.

SPEAKER_02 24:33

Well totally the family or your friends can have a real pushback. Or the siblings or the siblings for sure.

SPEAKER_01 24:40

You know if we're thinking about just the sibling dynamic if you're the one who does it and doesn't complain and is always the one doing it.

SPEAKER_03 24:48

Right.

SPEAKER_01 24:49

And then it's like I don't know if I'm going to do it like that anymore. There can be a lot of what anger resentment why you know and then even possibly well you're the oldest right playing that card. Right.

SPEAKER_02 25:02

And if they're parentified I almost think younger siblings can have like an attachment rupture. You know and it's not the responsibility of the eldest child to be their attachment figure. Sure. That can happen and and then I would understand why they might feel dysregulated seeing the eldest child like take care of it.

SPEAKER_01 25:19

Absolutely and how many eldest children have you heard say or in in therapy spaces well I was kind of their parent you know my siblings parents or I kind of took care of them through these years. My parents weren't available for whatever reason and so I kind of took on that role like that happens all the time.

SPEAKER_02 25:35

Right. I'll have people kind of look at their relationships and think like is there anyone that doesn't make you feel like you have to be in control.

SPEAKER_01 25:45

Interesting.

SPEAKER_02 25:45

You know and like try to use them as a resource or I would even maybe can encourage if you're listening and you feel like you resonate with this like spend more time with that person if you can and even maybe talk to them about this issue because it can be really powerful to have someone and maybe another fellow eldest child even in another family but someone who doesn't make you feel like you have to make all the plans dot every I and cross every T and or please them for them to stay in connection with you. You know, finding those little spaces where you don't have to live like that. And even noticing how your body feels in spaces with those people you know to help even create some buy-in for like maybe you do want to shift this. Yeah. It can be so tough if you've been an eldest daughter eldest son in your adult romantic relationship. I think it can be really tricky if you've been dependent on a lot and you've been parentified it's hard to not be like they talked about this in the article like parentified spouse you know spouse. And you can both like hate that maybe you take care of everything in the relationship and also like not know how to step out of that role.

SPEAKER_01 26:58

Or ask for help or any number yeah that's almost autopilot or it's like so ingrained that without realizing it you come into it honestly because that's just how you have engaged for a lot of your life. Yeah. And it has served functions right and if you're realizing it's not anymore yeah to anybody who's listening I think values work is really important. I think we always talk about that I think it's self-worth self-compassion like all of those things can be really huge as people are trying to work through this and it's a long process.

Self-Worth Beyond Achievement

SPEAKER_02 27:29

So many of us like and me for years of my life like we really think that our Dak Shepard always talks about this and I like so disagree about it. But how he's like self-worth is in doing esteemable acts and I I I just what does that even mean I think almost like achievements I suppose it's value aligned action which I think it had that has a role but to me it's like self-worth is that core radical acceptance of self. And I think for most most people the real key to it it's not like doing esteemable acts and feeling good about them. I think a lot of people do that and try to do that. I I think the other side of like when you feel in great pain or shame or you fuck up or you're messy can you truly like be there for yourself hold yourself love yourself accept yourself there. Like loving your messiest self it it the challenge is not like do good. The challenge is like right love in all forms.

SPEAKER_01 28:36

It's not as arduous for people to like themselves I wouldn't say love but like themselves when they are achieving or things are going well. That's like the other side right what do I do in the space when things aren't going well when I'm not achieving when I feel like I'm failing that's the work of well you still have worth right you still deserve love and belonging no matter what. Yeah. Yeah. To quote Brene Brown, right? Like that's where the work is and that's what's really difficult because people have been programmed if I just do things that get recognized.

SPEAKER_03 29:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:07

If I just do things that make me feel accomplished or achieved then I'm gonna like hit my stride and be good enough. It's like that's great when those things happen. It's that's it's more about when they don't happen.

SPEAKER_02 29:18

And real self-worth is that core sense of like when the chips are down the chips are up like the deep core of me I accept and love. Right.

Fertility Stress And Permission To Feel

SPEAKER_02 29:27

I I I even had I talked with Josh about this like this kind of breakthrough in my own therapy this week. I was getting so bothered and maybe you can relate to this by people around the fertility stuff like talking about how important it is to not be stressed. It was bothering me so much like how could you not be well that's what my therapist and I got to where it's like it would be crazy if I didn't feel stressed. Exactly that would be strange and probably phony and like if I know my self-worth is in like honesty and acceptance of exactly where I am it's like I should be a fucking mess right now.

SPEAKER_01 30:00

This is a stressful process.

SPEAKER_02 30:02

Oh and it's disappointing it's cyclically disappointing it's uncertain it's invasive it's everything. I I had this I was doing EMDR I had this image of like every woman should just be like weeping and um and snotty and like messy the whole time and meant to but like the whole time they're going through this process. Yeah keeping it together is complete bullshit. And and when when we got to that place and I was doing the tapping with it I was really realizing like this is what I needed. Like be a mess feel everything yeah with no hold back.

SPEAKER_01 30:40

Yeah and it's been helpful to think about it that way like and there's my self-worth right there when I'm like oh just like when something's disappointing just cry you know it doesn't seem like that much of a heavy lift or an ask to just like phrase it differently and say just even say right off the bat, this is an extremely stressful process. And there's so much that goes into it. Let's maybe think about or your homework to think about maybe how you can reduce turn some of those knobs down here and there.

SPEAKER_02 31:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:11

Right. What it's not going to be realistic to be stress free during this process is stressful.

SPEAKER_02 31:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:16

So it doesn't seem like that much to ask if somebody just had a little bit more awareness of like it's more about how could we be in that stress in a more healthy way. You know that type of thing.

SPEAKER_02 31:27

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 31:27

Like this is going to be stressful for the next however many months how can we be healthily stressed do you have people to talk to do you have supports do you have time for yourself whatever it is you know that type of thing. Totally be as stress free as possible. It's like not okay it's like can I ask you to stop being an idiot like you're an idiot. It's like that was a stress for you to say it was an idiotic thing to say for me.

SPEAKER_02 31:56

Well yeah and it's like I realized too this is actually the experience I had I imagine so maybe a lot of eldest children would have this like Josh and I had this experience where he he did something minor and I was upset and of course like in this process like I am more reactive. And I told my therapist I noticed I had this part of me come up or I felt upset right and then instantly I had a part of me come up saying you can't get upset about this. Oh then there was like a third part that was like and you also can't get stressed because you're in this fertility journey. So one was like you don't deserve to push back here. I think that's kind of an eldest child experience sometimes an inter introject that tells you like you got to keep it together. And then this part that was like an internalized version of all the doctors I've seen and just random people saying like well you really you know you're not gonna get pregnant if you're stressed. Be chill. You know so many people they try and try and then when they give up they have a kid it's like I actually would like you to never share stories like that with me again.

SPEAKER_01 32:53

Not helpful.

SPEAKER_02 32:54

Not helpful what I find more refreshing isn't women who are like here's how I prepared and here's all the wonderful brilliant esteemable things I did to get ready. I was like I want to meet someone who's like I didn't do jack shit and I got pregnant you know like I tried for a while and it happened like it's fine. Don't break your neck trying anything. Yeah like just be yes you know trust yourself like whatever yeah that's and I realized like oh if I just let myself be a mess both of those other parts are quiet. And then there's less internal noise. Yeah. And I think I would do similar work with any of these like eldest children if they're having that experience. Like let's notice the parts that have kind of formed in response to this role. Yeah. And yeah how do we kind of like relax them a little bit and help them find like what are your values? Right. Not sort of like the scripts that help the family stay in equilibrium.

Parenting Anxiety And Honest Connection

SPEAKER_01 33:50

Yeah I mean I being a parent early on very early on in my parenting journey I felt a lot of what am I missing? Because everybody's telling me this is the greatest thing. Yeah. And all I feel is anxious all the time now that I have kids. Yeah. And it's like or stressed or I'm always looking at my watch like do I have to do something for them? Do I have to like you know and when they're babies it's like is it feeding is it diapers is it you know and and I felt such a like I am missing something. Everybody else as a parent seems so happy right and I just am completely adrift here. Like and so I resonate in the idea that when people see that or when you share that with them some of the feedback you get is kind of like well you know before you know it's going to be gone and they grow up so fast and these are the best years. And it's like I don't resonate with that at all right now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:43

You know it's more I'm feeling anxious.

SPEAKER_01 34:45

Exactly it's like the people who are like I'm about to lose my and I don't want anybody to lose their job but like I am on edge like we just had you know kids they're not sleeping. It's like okay that makes me feel a little bit more I'm still anxious but like comforted that like people struggle in this. Yes you know it's like how can I not be stress free and just enjoy it? It's like you're you have to sustain a life. Yeah. You know and looking back on it, you don't know what you don't know. But and parenting has become so much less as I've engaged with it and you know like literally years of experience of doing it now it's so much more enjoyable. But those first couple years are so those were for me personally just so difficult because I just felt like I am not supposed to be like a parent because it's just I wasn't feeling the things that I thought others were I mean a lot of comparisons but like everybody seems to be getting it everybody seems to be getting more out of it everybody seems like just all of that stuff. Yeah. You know and it's like how can I not be stressed doing this this is a stressful thing.

SPEAKER_02 35:43

Oh wow yeah I mean I'll even have thoughts where I'm like you know those crazy like where it's like once there's a baby like they're there they're always there well that is true. But like I mean it's like I have all these weird thoughts at night where I'm like I'll even go as far as where I'm like do any of us even exist do any of us exist? My brain won't go to these places but it's like there is like a fear in like wow it's just like forever it is there's no days off. And for someone to just be like whatever about that like it's great. Like I know it to me there is some that's maybe someone not asking the same questions you're asking of themselves for sure or really engaging as deeply. You know some people some people do really conduct themselves that way.

SPEAKER_01 36:32

But those are not the people that I'm closest with you know like in my life right like totally because I can't sure like a conversation here and there but those aren't the people I want to like call into my true kind of self and struggles because it's it's like those people right aren't asking those deeper questions or they don't maybe in that moment or in certain moments understand the gravity of parenthood yeah to the way that I feel like it should be understood. Not that I'm doing it right or not that there's a right way to do it but there's not that much of a connection a deep connection there like with the the how high the high can be but also how low is the low can be when it comes to raising children, you know totally. So totally but same thing as as you're trying to create a family like such low lows at times and how are we supposed to not feel certain ways in this because we're feeling everything and everything's heightened and it's yeah and it's a totally new landscape. It's everything yeah yeah and so much is out of your we've already talked about that but so much is out of your control.

SPEAKER_02 37:34

This even comes up that to I mean maybe not a lesser extent but it's like with dating like there are people who are kind of like you know it's just it's easy you just meet your person. Right or it's now you know it's gonna happen. That is I was actually I told Josh as I was listening to a podcast of this couple that seemed really connected and they'd been married for years and they were very um like zen and I I was liking listening to their like perspective just on different things and they created like a fashion company but um the husband was like you know the beginning of our relationship because they asked him how they like met and stuff he's like we never had like a honeymoon period. He's like we like broke up a hundred times. Oh yeah he's like it was a mess. And then one day we kind of came together and like through a lot of their like meditation and stuff decided to really be together. The feeling inside me felt like such connection and I'm of course I'm listening on podcasts I'm not with these people but like to hear them be like not perfect like that I literally felt a sense of like common humanity in my body. Yeah. This idea of like esteemable acts and I'm like it's bullshit. Like it's like those are great in their own way but what really is like this connecting force among all of us is just like be totally messy and human. Yes. And love those people for being that way love yourself for being that way.

SPEAKER_01 38:52

If I could predict the future when you all do become parents those are the people you're gonna be most connected with are the people just like you're gonna show up to those people and be honest with like how hard it is you know because those are the people I feel most connected with. Yeah. It's never you know it's the the parents and the families that we're close with where it's like hey how you doing and it's like oh great you know and we celebrate the positives and then it's like oh you wouldn't believe this thing and it's like oh those are the people you feel connected to in the in the journey of parenting because it's like you're showing up messy they're showing up messy. Yeah. And then you feel like safe you can be like oh it's safe to not know what you're doing as a parent.

SPEAKER_02 39:31

It's safe to just be yourself.

SPEAKER_01 39:32

Just be yourself and not have all the answers. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:36

Not even like be yourself. It's I almost want to say just like be raw like just be raw.

SPEAKER_01 39:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:42

So much of inner pain is like fighting yourself. And and I think back to the eldest child that's a big piece of the picture is like fighting oneself one's imperfections trying to be kind of in control like the parent.

SPEAKER_01 39:58

Yes it's not a diagnosis and it's an experience right and people experience this. Yeah and it can be over the long term extremely toxic and lead to a lot of burnout and resentment and all these things.

SPEAKER_02 40:12

Totally totally yeah and feeling like you're kind of living for someone else who isn't appreciating it.

SPEAKER_01 40:16

And then losing yourself to what is really yourself to you.

SPEAKER_02 40:20

You know now I'm like should I make a video about the middle daughter experience and maybe I'll go viral. Do it oh my god I middle daughter really should I don't need I would have to like make a PowerPoint and like gather my thoughts on the middle daughter experience and like how would I know what's universal?

SPEAKER_01 40:36

The video starts with it's just talking and you can't even like you're off screen and you're like that's the experience it's being a middle no one's seeing it at all nobody's seeing it they can like hear something out there like it's up yeah totally

Is Teaching Your Partner A Complex Skill Wise

SPEAKER_01 40:53

I think it's a gold mine. Yeah do it eldest daughter experience middle daughter experience middle daughter experience and then I'm gonna do youngest brother yeah Jake I'm coming for you Jake your days are numbered they're numbered well we can move now into our how wise yeah let's do it you know what I just realized Josh is an oldest I'm a middle and you're youngest do you think our dynamics play out that way you don't fit the eldest child archetype that much you don't you don't you weren't parentified I don't parentify you were not parentified in your family yeah yeah that's a big part of it no I was babied un baby bringing up baby bringing in an eldest baby well that's an interesting I never thought of that yeah oldest middle yeah youngest totally does it flow back in terms of age I'm the oldest middle you're the middle he's the youngest so you're still the middle no matter what I'm always the middle sucks yeah so we're old babies old babies old babies but I will say Josh does do the most work for this pod oh yeah I'm good at working yeah you're a hard worker and you are perfectionist yeah I just see myself as a baby we're all a mix but yeah okay our how wise is it how wise is it to teach your partner a complex task yeah I mean complex skill skill or task like a complex board game game a sport a sport something that requires a lot of attention yeah like crochet crochet or a really complex like Lego or if they've never done that before or just anything how I think baking home improvement stuff yeah I'm in a curious place with this that's what that sounded like that's genuinely my curious thoughts coming out at that pitch. So I think it's almost high risk high reward. Yeah yeah I I think risk the game of risk the game of risk teach it no I think that I'm working with my kids on some different things well Legos I gave that example you know doing a Lego and they'll ask for help but then when you try to like help them or guide them in a certain way they don't want it and they're resistant to it and then they become frustrated. And they don't help me and then I become frustrated and it's like well this is kind of a complex thing so you might need to be a little bit more patient with me stepping you through this.

SPEAKER_03 43:13

Right.

SPEAKER_01 43:14

Or going to the driving range. Now I will say I'm not a good golfer at all. Yeah I did have lessons when I was a kid I know just a little bit about hitting the ball yeah no more than my kids. Right. So they'll ask for help but you're also like six four yeah and like a cord and also swinging a golf club is kind of a complex task. Yeah. You got to think about your feet, your hands blah blah blah. It just usually ramps up very quickly. But then I was also thinking about yeah like in our partnered relationships right is it wise and I think it can be but again I think it's like high risk high reward definitely and all that can be a really bumpy ride and also if you don't set some parameters around it it might go south pretty quick.

SPEAKER_02 43:57

Well I'll just admit that I am like a backseat Nightmare partner. You know, with the backseat driving for sure. Backseat driving. Backseat cooking.

SPEAKER_01 44:07

Oh. And so the so I I'm not even being self-driven. Like I genuinely teach Josh to do these things. He already knows how to drive.

SPEAKER_02 44:15

I wish it was even that intentional. It's just like do it the way I would do it, not the way you are doing it.

SPEAKER_01 44:19

Oh, so if it's a complex task, you're taking it to a level of wanting somebody to do it the way you do it.

SPEAKER_02 44:24

I mean, and that feels very unconscious, but very strong at the same time. Like I can be very I don't know if this is a middle child thing, but I'm pretty wedded to my way of doing things.

SPEAKER_01 44:36

Of doing it.

SPEAKER_02 44:37

I mean, unless it's something I'm like fucking clueless about. But man, if it's one of my like areas, which would be the same the thing I would teach someone. What would you struggle with more lucky?

SPEAKER_01 44:49

Would you struggle with more teaching Josh the complex task or having him teach you the complex task?

SPEAKER_02 44:54

I would I I can be taught. What do you think? What if I ever tried to teach you? Like Caton.

SPEAKER_00 45:01

You learned the board game. Catan. I like sort of learned, yeah. But you don't love a game.

SPEAKER_02 45:06

Right. I'm not super into games. Well, that's the other thing. It's like if you're teaching me this and I haven't stumbled upon this myself, and it's not an interest or a organic interest in it, like I'm gonna be a nightmare. I'm just gonna be like, I don't like this. And I give up very easily.

SPEAKER_00 45:22

Well, then it's not wise for me to push it on you.

SPEAKER_02 45:24

It's probably for me not wise to be the student. It's like I need to be students of things I seek out. Okay. I mean, I'm a manifesto. If we remember the human design episode, my initiate. That's kind of my thing.

SPEAKER_01 45:39

Man, that one is probably, yeah, that's probably our most realistic two episode human design.

SPEAKER_02 45:45

It's way back there. Check it out.

SPEAKER_01 45:47

Check it out, it's in the archives.

SPEAKER_02 45:48

Really, the manifesto, really, they like initiate things and they know their own mind and their own desires, and everyone kind of follows them, is sort of the way. But yeah, I'm also you could call that like kind of stubborn. But I think I do really like what I like. And and if I let me teach you the complex task of adjusting your mind, making this like stand up straight. Have we ever had a good experience, like with me teaching you something?

SPEAKER_00 46:11

You've kind of helped me with parallel parking. Oh, yeah. Is that a complex task? That's a very complex task. It is a complex task. But it's not like I didn't know how to do it. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 46:20

No, I think I kind of I I because I have a method that's a little different than how they teach you at driving school. It's just like a couple different parts to it.

SPEAKER_00 46:28

You'll add complex elements to simple tasks so that I can do it in the optimal way. Yeah. Yeah. I knew how to make a bed.

SPEAKER_02 46:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:36

But you've taken me to the next level. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 46:39

Well, yeah. It's more like this is how I like this bed to look.

SPEAKER_01 46:44

It's more about your wants, your likes.

SPEAKER_02 46:46

It's like my design preference. But God, you've done a great job. You actually surpassed me. I saw the bed the other day and I was like, wow, you made it, and you also had the wood at the bottom showing. Whoa.

SPEAKER_00 46:58

Looked very kind of Italian. I thought you were Josh and me.

SPEAKER_02 47:01

Oh no. I was, I was like, I didn't even think of making it this way, and I really like it.

SPEAKER_00 47:05

You become a little Bellino man.

SPEAKER_02 47:07

Yeah, Bellino.

SPEAKER_01 47:09

Is the person open to being taught the complex task? That's key. Because I think if it's just noticing something that's not done your way and you want to like assert yourself as hey, if you uh let me teach you a new way of doing it, it's kind of complex, but it's better. I don't know if that's gonna go over. Let me show you the way that's gonna go over so well. So I think it can be very wise and have really huge pay dividends. Yeah. If the person has an interest, yeah, is open to it, yeah, and take some breaks.

SPEAKER_02 47:40

Well, how how would your kids feel about you saying that? Like, are you guys like if they're like, Dad, help me, and you pause and you say, like, now I have to ask, are you truly open to the stuff? I've said that before.

SPEAKER_01 47:51

I I and when it depends, I think it's kind of it's a spectrum of responses, yeah. I think it depends on the kid also, but I think they're a little bit more open if I start that way, yeah, and and kind of lay the groundwork of okay, it might take me a minute to explain this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:10

Are you I just need a minute?

SPEAKER_01 48:12

Buckle up. It's riveting stuff. I'm gonna teach you this.

SPEAKER_02 48:15

So I love that idea of talking to kids that way. That's perfect.

SPEAKER_01 48:19

You do that, and then immediately it's like, no, blah blah blah. You know, that's it. Right. Yeah. So I do think though, it does even in that moment, it doesn't matter. What's more important is that you are kind of modeling for them, you know, asking someone. Yeah. Right? Like, and and and letting them have a voice. Like, are you right? Like, I'm gonna teach you a new way of doing this because the way you're doing it isn't working that well. Like, I'm not it's just because you don't know what you don't know.

SPEAKER_02 48:44

None of this is really working.

SPEAKER_01 48:45

None of this is really working. But I think in more partner relationships, you can have more complex conversations about yeah, this is gonna take some time. Like, do you really want are you open to that right now? Right, do you want to devote this much time? Are you even interested in this? Are you listening? I know you're not a board game person.

SPEAKER_02 49:01

I know, and and we have done it like a thing of like radically accepting like you love board games, I don't love them. Yeah, so we don't really play them.

SPEAKER_00 49:09

And that's wise to accept that. That is, but you can play with me, but you could play with me.

SPEAKER_01 49:13

Yeah, you could play with John. I don't know, Catan.

SPEAKER_00 49:15

You want to stay over, John? Have a little game night.

SPEAKER_01 49:17

Hey, next time Kelly's out of town, I'll sleep over.

SPEAKER_00 49:19

We'll play some Catan.

SPEAKER_01 49:20

She's gonna be out of town on Wednesday. I do that with Tommy. I go out to Plainfield. Tommy's been Tommy Boyk, been on the podcast. Yeah, one of our great shout-out, great guests, listens to us religiously. I will go out to Plainfield, where he lives, go find him, play, we'll play board games. I'll sleep over there. We'll wake up, maybe play some board games. Like, it's great. It's like board game night. Wow just the two of you? Oh, yeah. What's Josh gotta do to get an invite? I I would really be curious this question if we could get some people to email us stories. Yeah, I want to hear some stories about teaching your partner or trying or you being taught a complex task. And how did it go? What was useful, what wasn't? Because there's gotta be gold out there.

SPEAKER_02 50:00

Yeah. I mean, settlers of cuton, I bet a ton of couples have like ones taught the other.

SPEAKER_01 50:04

Any type of complex board games, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_02 50:07

Or driving a stick.

SPEAKER_01 50:08

Oh, yeah. Complex. Complex for sure.

SPEAKER_02 50:11

Cooking a souffle.

SPEAKER_01 50:13

Yeah, cooking, there's a lot of complex things. Baking, a lot of complex things. Skiing. Skiing? Skiing No, a lot of sports. A lot of sports for sure can be complex. Yeah. Oh man. Teaching kids to ride a bike. Yeah. Is it wise?

SPEAKER_02 50:29

Is it wise? I mean, probably in the end. But you're right. I think you really need some conditions, some ground rules. Like, are you in a mood where you can handle this? Can you receive some feedback? Can you receive it? Can you relinquish control?

SPEAKER_01 50:41

This goes back to the DBT consultation agreements. Yep. Yeah. Can we be more objective? Yeah. Non-judgmental. Non-judgmental. You might hear some feedback, but I'm trying to help you. That's where it's coming from. Not so DBT consultation, task teaching.

SPEAKER_02 50:57

Task teaching, yeah. Yeah, get out the get out the agreement sign. It's a book idea. Okay. So it's wise.

SPEAKER_01 51:03

I think it's wise.

SPEAKER_02 51:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:05

Test it out. Get back to us.

SPEAKER_02 51:07

Let us know. Okay.

Listener Prompts, Rating Requests, Closing

SPEAKER_02 51:09

Well, that was our episode. Yes. If you want to reach me, you can find me at kkpsychsotherapy.com. You want to work with me, want to reach out about the pod, you have questions, thoughts, you can find me there. How about you, John?

SPEAKER_01 51:23

Uh, butz. Jonathan at gmail.com. Email me questions, stories about teaching complex tasks.

SPEAKER_00 51:31

Yeah. You can reach me at joshbayerfilms.com, B-A-Y-E-R as in the aspirin, and please rate and review the pod. You've been loving it. I feel like a broken record. If you don't love it, give us a zero star review. All I want is honesty. And um maybe don't do that. I hear you. And uh I've been loving the new Arca album, XXXXX. That's five X's. Wow. It is aggressively weird.

SPEAKER_01 51:58

Aggressive weirdness.

SPEAKER_00 52:00

It is electronic, largely, with some liminal whispering.

SPEAKER_02 52:06

Oh I like it. Okay, we'll take it.

SPEAKER_00 52:09

It'll take you to a liminal space.

SPEAKER_01 52:12

Okay. Take you to blanket forts for the music, as always.

SPEAKER_02 52:17

Yeah, and we'll catch you next time. Bye. Later. The Wisemind Happy Hour Podcast is for entertainment purposes only, not to be treated as medical advice. If you are struggling with your mental health, please seek medical attention or counseling.